What some male Doctors do when women say “No”

Many women are uncovering the facts regarding pelvic exams and are discovering that cervical cancer is rare, that a pap smear is an unreliable testing method, and that they face a very real risk of harm from followup procedures.  Some women understand that all cancer screening is optional and are saying  “No” to pelvic exams and pap smears, but some Doctors are not respecting informed decisions.  What follows are excerpts written by women who have said “No” to cervical cancer screening:

Sarah, from Australia:  A few days ago I’ve got this severe pain in my chest, I felt it somewhere deep and it wouldn’t let me move or breath normally. I waited for a couple of days – no improvement. Knowing that many people in my family died of heart attacks, I convinced myself to be a “responsible person, proactive about own health” and went to the medical center I was such an infrequent visitor of. That’s where the “fun” began. Here is the script.

Doctor: Hello Sarah, take a seat. What’s happened?
Me: Hi. I’ve got this chest pain and it wouldn’t let me sleep, move or breath properly.
Doctor: Ok, let’s have a look what’s in your records.
Me: I have a kind of family history…
Doctor: When was your pap last smear?
Me: ?????
Doctor: There’s no info about your pap smears in your records.
Me: That’s about right. I’ve never provided such info.
Doctor: Why not?
Me: Because the only outcome would be that I’ll be told to have the next one.
Doctor: Are you saying you aren’t doing pap smears at all?
Me: Sorry, I came here today because…
Doctor: Don’t you know that pap smears are the most important tool for preventing cervical cancer?
Me: I heard that, but today I’d like to do something about my chest pain…
Doctor: I’m talking about cancer here; it is a very serious thing!
Me: Yep. *Cervical* carver, which I maybe possibly have a tiny-puny risk of, or maybe no risk at all!
Doctor: Have you been vaccinated against cervical cancer?
Me: No I’m not vaccinated against *HPV*? They said I’m too old for that when the vaccine was rolled out.
Doctor: Then why you think you have such a small risk?
Me: Usually I don’t discuss my private life, but to finish with this question – I’m a long-term absolutely monogamous relationship with a man who has never been in short-term relationships. And I tested HPV-negative before meeting this man.
Doctor: So what?
Me: Don’t 97% of women and 100% of men clear the virus within 2 years and become immune to it?
Doctor: The virus may not be cleared, it may just lie dormant for ages and then activate and cause cancer.
Me: If our bodies did not develop immunity against HPV, the vaccines wouldn’t work.
Doctor: It’s more complicated than that!
Me: Could you please explain then?
Doctor: It’s complicated, you won’t understand.
Me: How do you know I won’t understand?
Doctor: It will take too long and we’ll waste your consult time for an irrelevant lecture. And we’ll make the other patients wait!
Me: Well, so far you’ve been happy to waste my consult and the other patients’ time on talking about irrelevant pap smears.
Doctor: You should watch your language! Cancer prevention is not a waste of time! It’s important!!
Me: Today, for me, my current pain is important, not a chase after a rare cancer that I have 99% chance of never getting in my whole life. And since you told me to watch your language, I will tell you that I know about unreliability of pap smears, about the misinformation around this screening, about incentive payments doctors get, about reaching screening targets and I know the real statistics of this cancer. And that’s why I don’t want to discuss pap smears anymore.
Doctor: In thins case you can’t be a patient in this centre. We are committed to providing high quality comprehensive heath care. And if you resist that, we can’t help you here.
Me: Fine. In this case I want all my info to be deleted from your system, because I don’t want to a patient here anymore, and I’m not coming back ever again. Thanks for bloody nothing, you greatly helped with my chest pain.

Slam the door.
F%cking conventional medicine with its ” high quality comprehensive heath care”!  http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-174/#comments

Here is another woman’s story:

Sia:  I’ve just had an unbelievable experience at the doctors today, I went in to see a random doc for a medical certificate, and he asked me when my last pap smear was, I said that I’d declined to participate in that programme, I actually really wasn’t in the mood for a debate, anyway he actually told me I was a “silly girl”, and asked “why not?”… So I told him. That should have been the end of the discussion, but he felt it was his duty to lay on the usual cc is in decline because of screening, precancerous cells are detected a lot, and save lives yadda yadda.. So I counter argued him, you all know the arguments.. Well, he started to raise is voice and talk over me, by this stage I’d figured out it was time to get the hell out of there, he wasn’t listening to me, so I said “I’m going now”. He then had the nerve to say, “No I haven’t finished talking to you yet”!! I got up and left, and got the forms to make a formal complaint with the practice manager on my way out.  http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-173/#comments

Not all Doctors would react this way.  Here is one female Doctor’s views on pressuring women into pelvic exams and pap smears:

I do think it’s bad practice to cajole and occasionally frighten women into smear tests . . .

Currently, women are encouraged to have a smear. GPs are incentivised to do so. This means that when a woman comes in with a symptom that needs sorted, there is a detraction from the woman’s agenda. This presents a conflict. I can’t quote research because it, shamefully, hasn’t been done – but there are women who do not wish to have a smear and who are asked, time and again, why they are not ‘complying’ with the medical screening targets. This can cause distress and can even prevent women from coming to see the doctor about symptoms. Many doctors have seen this pattern.

I don’t expect people in general to realize this, but it cannot be ignored. There are many discussion forums on the internet where women discuss the issues they have faced when they have wished to decline a smear. Women have felt humiliated, bullied, harried. It’s not fair and it’s not right.

To me the problem is that we advertise smears as the usual. We don’t individually consent and explain screening in the same way as we would other interventions – like a prescription or an operation. We do not recognize that it is a completely valid choice not to have screening. Doctors cannot and should not force their own value judgements onto anyone else – either to have or not to have a cervical screening.

I’m happy to explain my rationale because I am concerned that a great many women are being directed into cervical screening without knowing that it’s a choice and without giving fully informed consent. I want to see better discussions of the pros and cons. This isn’t recognized well – here’s a response to some research on the uptake of cervical screening written by myself and Professor Susan Bewley. It didn’t occur to these researchers that some women may have wanted not to be screened.

via http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/2234123-why-i-don-t-have-smears

About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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124 Responses to What some male Doctors do when women say “No”

  1. Mary says:

    I think male doctors have a problem with a no answer from women all the time. That has been my experience. For example, the last time I asked my male doctor for the pill, he tried to sell me all these other forms of contraception which all required a foreign object in my body one way or the other. When he came to the IUD I shuddered and said “no way, not with their history”. What was his reply? “I’m beginning to warm to them” !!!.WTF? Anyway I repeatedly told him “no, I want the pill”. He finally gave me a prescription, 3 months supply only mind you and threatened me with a breast exam the next time I was coming in! How dare he get angry with me becasue I object to having a foreign object in my body.

    Another male doctor, another incident of doctors not liking to be told no by their female patients.

    When I was pregnant I had a dangerous condtition which could be treated conservatively or with a hysterectomy. I, of course chose the conservative treatment and I made it clear at every appointment that I did not want a hysterectomy. He appeared to respect my wishes. However, at the last appointment before my baby was to be born he recommended a hysterectomy even though he knew how vehemently opposed to it I was. I so angry that I told him I was not turning up for the birth. Well he changed his tune and started grovelling to me to come back. Point is, why do I as a woman, have to make threats to get my way?

  2. Mary that is dreadful. Here you were, vulnerable and pregnant, made to fight for your right to keep a valuable organ. Good for you to stand your ground and to threaten to go elsewhere for the birth. Same with the IUD, and what indeed did he mean he was “beginning to warm to them”?! You were treated very badly and put through so much unnecessary stress at a time when you most needed comfort and a sense of safety. I just don’t understand why men are the main “caregivers” when it comes to women’s health.

    • Mary says:

      The next time I meet a male gynecologist which probably will be never, I am going to ask them what makes them think that they as men have anything to contribute to the specialty, except an obviously enormous ego.

  3. Here is what Elizabeth had to say in response to the patient experiencing chest pain and whose dr was attempting to force a pap smear:

    8674 – Elizabeth (Aust)

    “Doctors have always used coercion to force women into testing and some still persist even though they know it’s unethical and also, if you’d ended up in hospital after leaving the surgery, his conduct in the consult room could land him in court and before the Medical Board. Doctors need to understand they do not have the right to treat women in this manner and that it can lead to serious consequences for the doctor and the patient.” http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-177/#comments

  4. Matthew Chiglinsky says:

    Accounts like these make me wonder why after 2 years I still have no Likes on my post that claims a pelvic exam is basically rape (http://agalltyr.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/a-pelvic-exam-is-rape/). I mean, what the hell else do you call it when someone in a position of power is actually arguing with you and trying to scare you into letting him/her stick things inside you?

    I’m not trying to play down conventional rape. I’m sure that’s even more traumatic, but I’m trying to point out that pelvic exams are a very psychotic and disturbing practice in our society. Coercion should never have anything to do with access to the private areas of someone’s body.

    I’ve had 2 years to think about it. Rape is still the first thing I think of when I think of a pelvic exam, and it’s not like I’m just imagining it in my head. I’ve seen those videos that various medical organizations posts on their own web sites and YouTube. It’s just disturbing.

    • Matthew, your post that claims a pelvic exam is basically rape was like a revelation for me at a time when I most needed it. I think when something traumatic happens to a person it can take a while to make sense of it, especially when you are not certain even what to call it. A pelvic exam can feel exactly like rape when you are coerced and frightened into it, and when the physician is unethical. But because a pelvic exam is called something else and because it happens under the guise of health “care”, the word “rape” doesn’t seem appropriate. I found an interesting site that discusses sexual assault when the assault doesn’t fit a typical stereotype:
      “This (not fitting into a stereotype) makes sexual assault a very lonely issue for some survivors. It’s a lot harder to recover from something when you don’t even have a name for it.
      The farther someone’s experience is from the stereotype, the more difficult it can be for them to identify what happened as sexual assault and access supports. The impact is the same, but the context in which it happens can be a barrier.”
      I agree that the further a sexual assault is from the stereotype, the harder it can be to make sense of it, to recover, and to move on from it. Your post Matthew helps victims of bad medical practices by unethical physicians to make sense of a traumatic experience, to sort through it, and to begin to recover and move past a bad experience. I certainly like your post Matthew! And I’m willing to bet I’m not the only who does.

    • San says:

      I completely agree with this. Weather it’s your health and well being or the health of your unborn being held hostage unless you submit to these exams it’s no different than putting a knife to a woman’s baby bump, or whatever area they came in seeking care for and saying, “Strip and spread ’em or else.” (Sorry if that sounded vulgar, ladies. That’s all I hear when medical practices get pushy and I feel uncomfortable.)

      As for conventional rape and the comparison, it’s unacceptable outside of the doctor’s office to FORCE touching and looking at these parts, why should it be acceptable to do so in the doctor’s office? Because that’s not a man, it’s a doctor? Is that a new gender now? Should we put it on applications that request information on gender if that’s the case? It’s only acceptable when a greedy system with power deems it so-which is sickening.

  5. Katrina says:

    Matthew, I agree with you! When you posted over at blogcritics a long time ago, there was something of a backlash from a few of the posters, calling your views too extreme. They argued that a pelvic was perfectly ok as long as the woman WANTED the exam. Which I found kind of disturbing. Maybe there are a few kinky women out there who really do enjoy the experience, but aside from them, what self-respecting woman actually WANTS to have someone who is not the man/woman/rampant rabbit you love rummaging around in the the most intimate part of your body? It’s one thing if you’re suffering from symptoms and you endure an exam because you’re hoping they might find the cause of your problems, although for all the good that does you might as well go to the local garage and ask one of the grease monkeys to have a poke around… but if a woman actually accepts or, worse, demands routine pelvics, that’s still rape in my eyes. Women like that have been brainwashed to believe that pelvics are essential to their health, and that she’s digging her own grave by not having them. These fears are instilled in her by the very people providing the *service*. So in a twisted way, the medics have become rapists, by convincing her that she’ll die if she doesn’t let them do what they want. Rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power – and being able to stand over a half-naked woman who is frightened and vulnerable (better still, immobilised by the stirrups) must be a huge power trip. Only difference here is this rape is LEGAL, and the rapist is wielding a speculum instead of a knife.

    • Jen says:

      Wow. I know this post was made over a year ago but I’m pretty taken aback by the judgmental nature of it. =/ I hate pelvic exams and I agree that they seem to be largely unnecessary and forced on women. I personally don’t have them because I agree with those sentiments. But if a woman is comfortable with it and wants to use the medical procedure, she shouldn’t be judged by her significant other or considered to be “cheating” because she’s undergoing a medical procedure. Is a man “cheating” when he undergoes a prostate exam? I think we need to turn the vitriol more at medical professionals who try to coerce women into having unwanted exams instead of demonizing or judging those women who, for themselves, choose that they want to have a particular medical procedure. It’s their CHOICE, and saying that it’s still “rape” even in the event that it’s a fully informed choice sort of insults a woman’s intelligence and suggests that she can’t really, truly make decisions about what’s right for her own body. If you don’t want a pap smear, then don’t have one! Don’t judge the women who choose to make it part of their medical routine. It’s amazing to me that we’re even blaming the victim here when we’re discussing pap smears.

      • Jen says:

        Just to clarify, when I reference cheating, I’m referencing Matthew’s blog post where he suggests he wouldn’t want to date someone who chooses to undergo pelvic exams.

      • stephen says:

        Jen, there are many women who deliberately go to male gynecologists knowing that it hurts their husband. Therefore these women should be held accountable.

      • Alex says:

        Keep something in mind: they don’t go up to women & say “Hey, do you want something that’s high risk, low utility, and invasive in order to potentially diagnose if you have something that is massively rare & probably more preventable by living a non-cancerous lifestyle than medical intervention?” Deception vitiates consent, so it’s not someone making their own choice if someone is lying to them.

        I DO agree that it’d be pretty weird for a woman to use a doctor as a gigilo (not that it doesn’t EVER happen, but it seems pretty bizarre), but it’s not totally off-base for the guy to feel cheated on given the mechanics of the situation. I’m not trying to be crude, but if a man got his motor skills tested by fingering & fondling someone I’d think that would get his girlfriend pretty cranked-up.

      • Alex says:

        stephen- That’s a bit of an odd situation, but it is possible. Trying to cheat on her husband & make it look innocent is a pretty hard thing to pull off, but I guess she could do that. She could also just simply cheat on him & make it obvious, too.

      • Karin Carter says:

        Yes Jen, I fully agree with what you are saying. There is nothing wrong with women who CHOOSE to have these tests and examinations because they feel the need to put their minds at rest about life-threatening developments. They are not necessarily uninformed or idiots or kinky. They undergo these things in order to look after themselves the best way they know how.

        There is also nothing wrong with women who CHOOSE to opt out either.
        I am one of those women.

        I also don’t think it is right to have to justify to the medical profession or anyone else for that matter what I choose to do or not to do with my vagina, breasts or any other part of my body. It is my body, I am responsible for it and I don’t think it is for anybody else to ‘coerce’ me, blackmail me, manipulate or threaten me in any, way to surrendering my body for sexual reason, medical reasons or anything else.

        We recently changed our GP because our previous one was too far away from where we live.
        My previous practice nurse was not happy I would not have smears and mammograms, but in fairness, she did lay off when she realised I simply did not want it.

        My new practice nurse saw me this week and checked my form I filled in after taking my BP and the usual – height, weight, etc., after which she then proceeded to ask when I last had a smear.
        I said I tried to avoid them as much as possible.
        She did not look pleased.
        I asked if that would stop the practice from taking me onto their books and she said. “We do strongly advise you have them”. My heart sank. I don’t WANT them.

        I am grateful for seeing this site because it gives me the confidence to make a stand on this. I will not be bullied in any way to giving in on this.
        I have paid into the system all my life.

        I believe in freedom of choice.

  6. Anonymous says:

    Of course doctors will react like this when a woman says NO to pap smears. And not only male doctors. Incentive payments offered by the government are too lucrative. And to get them, the doctors are required to coerce every “under-screened” woman into having a pap smear and keep coercing at least 70% of their 20-69 yo patients into having “regular” pap smears. Therefore, every new “non-complaint” female patient can jeopardise their chance to get the 30 pieces of silver. That’s why it is more profitable to kick the free-thinking woman out and keep the percentage of the pap-smearing sheep hight.

    • Anonymous that is very interesting about the money/ratio incentive and certainly explains why women doctors are just as dedicated to smearing as males are.
      Katrina, your comments about rampant rabbits and grease monkeys rummaging around had me laughing! And I’m in complete agreement about the grease monkey being just as effective. Having a peek into a vagina via a speculum exam to see what’s up in the uterus or ovaries is like looking in through the window of a house to see the entire floor plan.

    • kat rehman says:

      Karin just hold the thought it’s your breasts, your vagina, your left big toe nail. You don’t want smears and mammogram it’s your absolute right to refuse. I wrote to my GP stating absolutely I was NOT smearing and signed a disclaimer. Your new surgery should not refuse you because you won’t smear.
      Let us know how you get on

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        When you don’t want pap tests, but have no real information, it can be hard to stand up to the pressure. A simple NO should be enough, but we all know that often just sets us up for a lecture.
        Now more women are informed, we’re not going in blind, we can confidently decline, that throws doctors. The usual scene is an uncomfortable looking woman, perhaps flustered, embarrassed, she might be upset, apologetic etc. stating she doesn’t want a pap test, quite something else when an informed woman calmly and firmly asks to be removed from the register or declines to test. I’ve found doctors have nowhere to go…
        I often adopt a casual conversational-style on the rare occasions I’m asked about pap testing, usually by a locum covering my GP (and it hasn’t happened in quite some time)
        “oh, no, I’d never take part in our program…etc.”
        If the doctor doesn’t agree with me, I simply say, “well all I can do is make the best decision for me, based on real information” or something similar. Usually when doctors know/hear you’re informed, they back off. (or ask you for some references! That’s happened with breast screening) Some doctors/perhaps many have a poor understanding of screening, they simply follow the recommendations.

  7. Anonymous says:

    It’s not just male doctors and it’s not just on this topic. In general I find that doctors do not like being told no. Many seem to have have somewhat of an “expert” complex, expecting you to do what they say without question because they’re the experts. How could you possibly know as much as they do?! Then there is also the issue of quotas and/or kickbacks for compliance. Ask parents who have declined or delayed vaccines for their children how they have been treated and you’ll find a lot of the same techniques – bullying, coercion and dismissal from the practice. In general, my belief is that ALL medical decisions should lie with the patient.

    • Alex says:

      You’re right about that (everything, but I meant the whole “expert complex” thing). Medical quality is determined by PATIENT SATISFACTION, not some kind of academic value. They get into an intellectual conflict (which is still a conflict) with the patient. It’s a “what I think OUTMATCHES what you think” situation. This is still a conflict, it’s just a mental version of what a fight would be physically. It’s like “what comes from me is an A, and what comes from you is a B at best- so I win in this confrontation.” There is no competition of grades or comparison of strategies. Even on the rare occasion that something does work as advertised, the components of a methodology do not cease to exist in their own right.

      Something I’ve noticed, in general, is that someone tends to try and “recruit” the person they’re arguing with. Like they’re trying to convince them or get them to “see the light.” This strategy tends to be somewhat automatic, but it’s got some pretty serious flaws in it. Off the bat, it depends on someone else coming to that conclusion. It’s chasing their approval (which they may not give) and leaves things up to them. Also, if they feel like agreement is defeat or that someone is overriding them, they’re even less likely to do that . They maybe feel like someone is attacking them by deflecting what they’re looking to inflict, or that they’re being pushed around by the patient comporting their own medical situations.

      For another: you’re not going to have an effect on the situation by convincing them of anything, because that’s not what it’s about. They’re PRETENDING to have one thing or another as their driving force, but it’s not really that way. Hence, you’re aiming at empty space! Sometimes, if you beat them at their pretend game, they’ll go along with it- just to keep congruency (“keeping the lie alive”). Sometimes lying is the whole point (or at least part of it), and it would blow their cover to not act in accordance with their own story. You’d be amazed at how wrapped up in a lie someone can be (it’s like a momentum thing).

      These are big points, but another (possibly larger) point is that some things are hard to articulate. Something might be “antagonistic to your alignment,” which means that it’s something you have a problem with. “Sexual detriment,” would be a word for an issue of this nature (it’s a “hit” along these lines). Any interface with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. You might call it “third-party orchestration” (a point that can be made about other things- like when you’re talking about arranged marriages & can’t quite nail it down). “Applying influence,” can be launching an action/situation at somebody (it doesn’t strictly have to be an order). What a situation consists of is called a “constituent,” although “constitutant” would make more sense & “ingredient” is more typically used. An “iatrogenic attack” is a medical variation of any other attack. These things don’t sound like much (and circumstances are not affected by designation, anyway), but it’s hard to make an argument if you don’t know how to phrase it. I’ve made a similar point in another post, but I figure it’s not really touched upon very much. I know this is pretty long, but maybe it helps someone out.

      Also, talking in a definitive way (what they WILL be doing, what someone’s GOING to be having, etc…) is along those lines, in that it makes it harder to attach an argument. Them asking why someone is choosing to do something is like saying “Let me get a hold of your reasoning, so I can kick it out from under you.” Trying to steer the situation by steering the mind. Saying: “Your request for a justification has been denied,” is a little more than most people tend to talk like. Sometimes people have an instant issue with controlling someone else, so making a point that their opinion doesn’t count, they have no discretion in their actions, that they don’t run their business as they please (right over people) can be an issue. Personally, I don’t think they should have a say in who they treat. This is a whole subject of how people can be manipulative (and I guess would be called social engineering).

  8. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Alex, look at the way they talk about mammograms and pap tests, it’s never presented as a choice, it’s something we “must” do unless we’re silly, immature etc…this is why so many women don’t see screening as a choice. In all the years I’ve been watching these programs, I’ve never heard an Australian doctor acknowledge screening is a choice, full stop, something WOMEN can reasonably refuse. If they mention choice at all, it’s always followed up with a denial of choice, “of course, all women should have pap tests”. If informed consent comes up, (rarely) they just don’t get it. I’ve even heard doctors say, “we want women to make an informed decision to screen”. Again, screening is the only option.

    The only doctor to voice our right to reasonably refuse testing was Prof Baum, (from the UK) after Dr Raffle’s research was published in the BMJ in 2003 and more recently, Dr McCartney’s (Scottish) public admission that she doesn’t have pap tests. (and will not be having mammograms)

    Actually I’d forgotten how strong Professor Baum’s words were: “Michael Baum, emeritus professor of surgery at University College London and a cancer screening expert, calls the research “absolute dynamite. Any intelligent woman reading that would make an informed decision not to go for cervical screening”
    “So it comes down to the level of risk with which we are happy to live. And now that I know my likelihood of an abnormal smear is so much higher than ever having cervical cancer, I think I’ll take my chances until the test improves. What does Michael Baum think of my decision?

    “You are not being irresponsible or reckless. You are making a serious, thoroughly well-informed choice and I would like to extend that choice to all women,” he says. I wonder how long it will take the rest of the medical profession to come round to his point of view.”

    IMO, the non-choice message is largely why most women who don’t screen tend not to talk about it or may even lie about testing. We may even feel fearful, guilty, stressed, alone…now wait for it, about refusing an elective screening test. They hate people like Prof Baum and Dr McCartney because they support those women who choose not to screen…it’s a reasonable choice. The system has always labeled us in a negative way, we’re non-compliant and need to be isolated and hunted down, this also, empowers screened women to adopt the moral high ground, judge and pressure us into screening. Doctors are supposed to be silent or busy scolding us, not supporting us!

    I know women who took Prof Baum or Dr McCartney’s statements into the consult room…finally, women had a doctor on their side, and impressive doctors at that. For some women it’s hard to fight back in the consult room, their doctor might say, “most doctors don’t agree with Dr McCartney etc” but they can’t deny screening IS a choice and something we CAN reasonably decline. (as these doctors make clear…)
    The facts/evidence makes some doctors very uncomfortable…one locum doctor asked me, “where are you getting your information?”…which is the usual way they attempt to discredit you. My response, “the BMJ, MJA, The Lancet, the Nordic Cochrane Institute’s website…”
    Enough said….tactic didn’t work. Target leaves the consult room.

    There is an impatience with women who don’t do as they’re told, the headlines shout: “women are still not getting the message”…”women are still avoiding life-saving tests”…all of these messages convey the same thing…we “must” test and if we don’t, there is something wrong with us, we’re reckless with our health.
    This is the way the medical profession has always treated women. IMO, this is not cancer screening, it’s psychological conditioning/manipulation, propaganda and it’s highly unethical, it amounts to medical misconduct – and screening with no consent should amount to an assault.

  9. Kleigh says:

    Also the the thing that really bothers me. Is hear in the states if you go to a doctor for anything it is ruten to ask “When was you last pap smear”. That question has always bugged me as the wording implys we were expected to have this screening and they want a date. I have seen on the computer where the nurse fills this form out and there is only room for a date and no other answer whould fit in the blank. Woman are expected to have this screening at a certain age and not having a pap is never presented as an option.

  10. Mary says:

    That’s right Kleigh. And when you are pregnant, the hospital gives you these yellow cards that you carry around with you that has a place on it for your last pap smear date, making the assumption that everyone has one. What has that got to do with pregnancy? Do men admitted to hospital have when their last DRE was on their forms?

  11. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Kleigh, you have to wonder how we got to this point, where something that should be elective, is viewed as compulsory when it comes to women. I feel the profession still views women in a 1950s way and that will only change when more women reject these inappropriate and insulting attitudes and treatment. Sadly, most women accept the situation, and so it continues. Getting to women is so important and helping them see they’re a competent adult, an individual who has legal rights….the medical profession and others do not have the right to ignore these facts.
    Even some feminist groups walked into the trap, a call for all women to have access to regular pap testing, turned into something far more sinister and harmful. It happened before my very eyes and the consequences have been devastating.

  12. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    By the way, hope Blogcritics is only down temporarily, it would be a great loss, those pages are a rare and raw account of the suffering and harm these programs have caused, women silenced for decades. It shows what happens when you ignore informed consent and don’t follow the evidence. It’s a damning indictment of the medical profession and all those who promote and protect this abuse.
    I felt many women found that site and poured out their souls, some of the posts affected me deeply….and the tragedy, almost all of it was avoidable.
    Of course, this site and a couple of others are also, valuable and provide a safe meeting place.

  13. Lynne says:

    Did you ever stop to think that Blog Critics might have influenced too many women? I am too wondering what this “New and Improved” site will have to offer, and if all of the posts will be available for all to see, from several years ago to the current date.

  14. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    I always felt it was too good to be true, after all how many sites contain lots of real information and allow critical discussion. Very few…
    It would be viewed as a major threat by many…but the ball is rolling and they can’t close down every site. I’m seeing more critical discussion every day, and in many cases, I’m not involved…there are many others out there spreading the world and warning/informing women. It will be the thing that forces change…targets, payments, scare stories and campaigns, none of it works on informed women.
    Anyway, hopefully, it will be back shortly, women who’ve been negatively affected by these programs have been silenced and ignored for too long.

  15. Lynne says:

    Well Blog Critics is up, and from what I can see all of the comments from the past are gone. What a shame.

  16. Minticakes says:

    Blog Critics have stated that the comments will take some time to load but will be available soon.

    • Thanks Minticakes. Unfortunately all the links on this site to Blogcritics no longer work. Here is the new link to BC: http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/ I’m wondering if there will be just one long page of comments? If so, that will be a very long page to scroll down!

      • Graeme NZ says:

        Graeme NZ here and just getting back on deck. I found the article in blog critics but how do you find the comments relating to it?

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Welcome back, hope the surgery went well and you’re on your way to making a full recovery. Blogcritics feels very different, it’s a bit like walking into an empty room…anyone there? Hopefully, that will change when they load up all of the 10,000+ posts.
        I do worry with the extra security, obviously to cut down on spam and trolls, might put some women off posting, many of those posts are highly personal and many women probably only felt comfortable posting because they didn’t need to register or put in an email address.

      • Alice (Australia) says:

        “Improvements”, as per usual. :-(
        These new email address demands for the sake of fighting spam may put some people off commenting. Some may not want to share their personal email address, some may not think of registering a new “rubbish” email just for commenting, or even not know that it can be easily done. But I’m very sure that won’t stop the spammers.

  17. husband says:

    there is also another dynamic, the way these exams make the spouse feel. when my wife was examined by a male doctor, I couldn’t eat or sleep for days, I was so depressed. it felt like she had cheated on me in some way because another man was allowed to touch her , penetrate and I guess even smell all the things that I thought should only be between a couple. the closest analogy I can think of is like that movie with woody harrelson called “indecent proposal” for me it was a very inappropriate way for another man(doctor or not) to be touching and viewing my wife. most other places I have wrote about this the usual responses are as follows:
    “he’s just doing his job”
    “grow up”
    “control freak”
    and my favorite:
    “there is nothing sexual about it….”
    pardon me, but anytime the pants come off there is already something sexual about it in my book. same goes for breast exams, men have no business doing this kind of work. there is no way you can tell me that a man can look at and touch naked women all day and not think anything about it. its wrong.

    • Jola says:

      How great that a man writes something like that. I believe you are not the only one that feels so. In my view, there are lots of men who feel the same as you do / felt the same as you did but won’t admit it. I think men – partners, husbands – can do a lot in the matter.

    • You are definitely not alone. It is clear you love your wife deeply. I believe you will be encouraged by Brandon’s story at http://patientmodesty.org/modestycomments.aspx?ID=2.


      • Kleigh says:

        There is also now a push to screen for partner violence with these well woman exams. They tell womans boyfriends and husbands not to come in the exam room. To me these is very controlling. I think the Acog knows that womans partners might not like how the doctor is tuching his wife or gf and might discurage the woman from having these exams. I think the Acog needs too take a look at its own controlling and abusive ways bfore they demand woman have domestic partner violance screening.

    • Anonymous says:

      You are absolutely right. The women that have that attitude towards our feelings are as usual looking at these intimate exams from a women’s point of view. They refuse to believe that men are men and know how other men look at and feel about the female body.

      I believe quite frankly that male GP’s that specialize in obgyn just did not have the nerve to totally specialize in gynecology because their non-medical male aquaintances would know there true motivations for choosing that specialty if they had. Instead, they approach it from the family doctor standpoint that they are a full service provider. Still allows them full access to many women while performing intimate exams on them under the falsehood of,”I’m in it for the babys.” LOL.

      My first wife was 23 when she had our first daughter and 24 when she had ou
      r second daughter. Both pregnancies started out with a full breast exam and pelvic exam on a perfectly heathy asymptomatic woman. Both childeren were delivered by male GPs which bothered me greatly at that time 30 yrs ago. My wife refused to seek out a female provider even though they were available back then.

      My current wife is a beautiful woman inside and out. She was going to a male gynecologist when we first dating. When I told her of my feelings about male doctors performing intimate exams on women she offered me the opportunity to accompany her on her next visit. The doctor was clearly upset with the fact that she had brought her boyfriend since he was acustomed to examining her without anyone present including a nurse. Needless to say, after I had pointed out all the unprofessional things he had done like donning only one glove when he performed the pelvic exam and his paternalistic attitude towards her for daring to bring another male into his self-entitled perverted domain, she readily understood my concerns and male insight of his behavior. She does see him or any other male doctors for intimate exams or procedures.

  18. Kleigh says:

    You know my Uncel has been complaning about my cusin who just got married. He is so upset at the fact that “she is not on birth control”. He does not apporve of her husband and thinks he cant suport a family. and my cusin just got in the coast Gard. he thinks if she gets pregnant it could damage her job and she will be stuck raising his children. I dont think its any of his bussenes if she does have kids but, the thing is as a man he has no idea what doctors demand of woman asking for the pill. I notice some men shame woman for not being on the pill. It bothers me soo bad. we are all supose to just take a pill or we are seen as careless. its so sad most men have no idea what is happeing to there wifes , girlfriends and daughters are being put thru at the doctors. I am so glad to hear more men are becoming aware at the abuse doctors do to woman and standing up for loved ones. It makes me want to cry and screem at my uncel.

    • Alex says:

      Why not do so, Kleigh? I’m serious, being ostentatious can really help with this sort of thing. Men are NOT subtle creatures & I don’t think a lot of them realize what goes on in this situation- they just presume it’s an, “asked & given,” sort of thing. When explained, a lot think “Well, that doesn’t count as an issue.” Kind of like saying “it’s not being poisoned if it’s with a needle.” If you actually said to someone “What if someone snatched someone else up to play doctor?” that would likely get through. A more confrontational thing to say might be: “So what? You’d be okay with someone getting aggressively gay with you?” That’s usually the kind of thing you’d mention in the heat of an argument (the first one might do the trick).

      Jola- Not to be an attention-hog, but I recently posted a bunch of information (in this & other threads) that you might be interested in. Recruiting a man’s help usually means a more confrontational style of phasing. You’ve got to make a point a little more like they do (which is to say: to talk AT someone). I was VERY suprised to hear about Poland (I’m Ukrainian, but I always thought Slavics as a whole resented oppressive circumstances- that & someone trying to pretty things up to try to make it different). Didn’t know a thing about that Romanian dictator, either . I did hear they revoked that Lithuanian driver’s licence thing, though.

      Since it’s topic-related: I’ve heard about the military backing women into this sort of thing as part of their entry physical (not sure if that’s how it works in the Coast Guard or what happens if they refuse). I’ve also heard of this with WIVES of people in the military (she had said they wouldn’t give her overseas clearance if she didn’t have these exams). Not sure why she would need any clearance from the military, anyway (maybe living on a base or traveling on their dime/transport?). What kind of loyalty is that? Not very trustable (medically or overall) or “becoming” conduct, is it?

  19. This link is about doctors bullying women into paps for cash: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/114086.stm Most interesting is the fact the article was written in 1998. Not much has changed.
    (There are many old but still unfortunately relevant links being recovered from the old Blogcritic comments: http://unnecessarypapsmears.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/over-10000-lost-comments-on-unnecessary-pap-smears-find-a-home/)

  20. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Sue, I was wondering whether a thread dedicated to References and Education might be helpful…have all the links in the same place. There were some amazing references on Blogcritics, but you had to trawl backwards to find them; Dr Sherman has placed the references in the sidebar.
    Just a thought…there are also, lots of references at this site.

    • Elizabeth that is a fine idea. I have looked into setting up references in the sidebar, but a separate thread might be better so that others could also contribute links on that same thread. The violet to blue blogspot is set up very well.

    • Elizabeth I put all the links into a “page”. This way it will be visible on the top bar from any post. There were many many great links! Thank you again for the suggestion. At some point I might go back through and arrange them differently but for now at least they are all in one place.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Sue, thanks so much for all of your hard work. The new thread will make it even easier for women to get to real information. That’s always been a huge part of the problem, making it difficult to fight off screening pressure in the consult room and elsewhere. One of the questions I wanted answered required a few hours in the Medical Library in about 1979/1980, and all these years later, it’s still not easy to find the answer. What risk am I taking if I decline testing?

        It’s also, empowering to have the answers at the ready so if you get the patronizing, “Where did you get your information?”…we can confidently say, “the British Medical Journal and the Lancet”….

        Love your graphics…your banner of old fashioned skirts over on the BlogCritics thread is very nice and appropriate, we want to keep them ON and DOWN.

        I like to interact with the medical profession when I get the opportunity, so many just don’t get it. This doctor wonders why some patients no longer trust doctors, is she kidding?
        I’ve posted, some of you might like to post as well. Doctors need to hear from us over and over, this is a serious problem that needs serious attention, it’s not just one or 2 “ungrateful” women.
        I posted it here, it’s more commentary, not education or references.

      • Elizabeth I appreciate the feedback, thank you. It is amazing, isn’t it, how hard it still is to find answers to straightforward questions such as “what are the risks and benefits of screening?”. It is 2013 but still no information is offered or consent sought prior to doctors gaining access to the most intimate area of a woman’s body. Some women still are unclear about what a pap test is even for. But more and more women are starting to ask questions and the numbers of women screening are declining, although you were likely well in the minority and way ahead of your time by questioning the program back in 1979/1980.
        I’m glad you like the banner of old fashioned skirts – that is exactly what my line of thinking was “we want to keep them ON and DOWN”! And don’t some doctors work hard to get them OFF and UP.
        That is a great link, I read your comment and loved it. You pretty much summed it all up and nailed it beautifully – I was surprised it got posted!

  21. Stephen says:

    I am a man and I have been banned from numerous forums for trying to warn women about these unnecessary pap smears. But it’s not just with pap smears, it’s with vaccines and other treatments as well. What’s happening is that people are slowly losing their freedoms. Over here in the UK, the government is trying to get full control of the media. Compulsory vaccines are now creeping in. Bit by bit, people are losing their freedoms. Children have even been taken away by social services, just because the parents refused the vaccine. The only thing we can do is stick to our guns and shove it back in their faces whenever they try to control us. I myself won’t put up with this crap.

    • Alex says:

      I had thought that things were getting better in the U.K. (it certainly seems like there’s more calling something what it is & boldness of argument). I know in America it’s getting pretty shady. I’m figuring on moving to Europe soon (the Mediterranean was where I was thinking of). Could you elaborate further on things in Europe (or, at least, in the U.K.)? There is a steady trend of administrative attack & I can’t help but remember how things started in the Soviet Union & Germany. A lot of similar things at different angles (now they want to “help” everyone & are basically making “higher graded” decisions over people). It’s like an academic confrontation- that they’re looking to engage in the “right” answer in contradiction to someone that’s making the “wrong” one.

      Overall, any interface with sexual areas as a product of someone elses’s decision-making is an attack. It doesn’t matter if it’s an iatrogenic variation. I don’t know what the assessment tends to be in the U.K. (over here, it seems pretty common for people to think “but that’s a doctor, though”). If a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder- a situation is what it consists of (there’s no existential exemptions for doctors). All those points about risks & inaccuracies are additional ramifications (making it a compound issue). This is what’s trustable? The sphere of influence is quite questionable.

      I’ve gotten into this numerous times, but I’d be happy to share some insights with you if you think they might be useful. Take how some women think “that’s just part of being a woman”- don’t know if that’s what U.K. women think, but it doesn’t make sense. It’s like saying getting punched in the face is an inherent part of being married- an action has to be engaged in order to occur! Another point is someone saying “need, must, have to, will be having, going to be doing” is attempting to convey an impression of a fixed situation (like there exists no capacity for things to go differentyl/reality can’t “unfurl” any other way).

      This is, of course, a tactic of social engineering- it’s not exactly a fight, but it’s the mental version of what a fight is physically (just like rushing someone around so there’s no time to think, sequencing things one right after another so there’s no space for debate or refusal, guilty trips, lying- whether that’s false information, omissions, or half-truths, yelling at someone- body language & tone of voice may come into play with any of this). This would all hinge on trust (like it’s actually this way because someone’s acting like it is).

      I think maybe people in the U.K. need to remember their roots (Celts, Picts, Britons, none of them seemed to put up with a lot of the things that go on there). At the very least, they’ve got to look at what they’re dealing with situationally. Granted, that applies in other countries, too (wasn’t trying to be insulting)- but I figured it might be good advice.

      • Alex says:

        Replying to my own post, but Stephen- if you read my last post before this one (on the Lead Researcher thread) it’ll give some some insight into the kinds of things that are going on here in America (and maybe some warning of what to look out for in your country).

  22. Stephen says:

    Alex, what is the Lead Researcher thread?

    • Alex says:

      I shortened the “lead researcher for gardasil vaccine speaks out.” It’s a thread on this site (if you click on one of the “commented” leabels on the side, it’ll take you right to it) or you can go to it right from the starting page.

  23. Jola says:

    Stephen, you’re absolutely right as for the freedom that is being taken away from us. And what you wrote about the Social Services (SS) taking children away from parents even for their refusal of vaccines! It’s scary and tragic. How long is it going to last? Why are people afraid to speak more about it in public? These are the questions I often ask myself.
    As for the unnecessary pap crap – I remember getting letters from NHS, one by one, three within a couple of months, and the third one always as ”the last reminder”, in red! I felt so guilty of not going for the pap crap – I felt even more guilty as a mother of two. Finally, I wrote an e-mail to them, they sent me a piece of paper to sign on which the last word said, more or less: ”…and I agree that not attending the pap smear examination causes deaths…” – I signed the papaer as I didn’t want them to send me any ”warnings” but I wrote next to my signature that I don’t agree with the sentence about deaths. (My husband was so proud of me for what I did.)
    Well, NHS here in the UK and Health Service (be it called whatever) in other countries find it so easy (and so natural) to intimidate women (especially women), to make them feel guilty, to make them feel fragile, to make their femininity defective – just because they’re women (women are thought to be gullible so they will believe anything!)

    To Alex – I sincerely recommend the Czech Republic to you – relaxed people, free, firendly, open. Getting a job there with the English language shouldn’t be a problem.

    • Alex says:

      Thank you for thinking of me, Jola. I hadn’t really thought about there much, but I’ll definitely give it a second look (if you’re thinking my personality would blend well with theirs, maybe it’ll be a good mix). Hadn’t thought about how much my ability to speak English fluently would be an asset (and I am good with languages, so I don’t think it would be too hard to learn Czech). Any area in particular that you’d recommend?

      I heard they had loose guns laws (which appeals to me plenty) & it wasn’t a warzone (which also appeals to me), but I also heard that they’re the same way with birth control as America. Maybe it’s not that way anymore (or the women don’t get pushed around as easily)? That’s one of the first things I look at with a country, now (it’s a point on it’s own, but it might also give you some layout on the overall medical environment- “trustability indicators,” I guess would be a good term for it).

      I also heard that Lithuania changed that thing about driver’s licenses being connected to getting a pelvic exam (I remember you mentioning that & figured you may find that interesting).

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        A pelvic exam to get your driver’s license, okay, I’ve officially heard everything now. It sounds like a bunch of perverted men have been left in charge…sadly, that’s probably very close to the truth.

      • Stephen says:

        Basically my girlfriend (now my ex girlfriend) went out drinking and she was found unconscious in a field. The police thought she might have been sexually assaulted so they took her to the police station and brought a doctor in to examine her. My girlfriend was surrounded by her own mum, two police officers, and the male doctor. So of course she would have felt pressured into it. Even though the examination revealed that she had not been raped, it felt like she had been raped by the doctor, so it didn’t really make much difference. For the rest of our relationship, I was haunted by the trauma of the whole thing. When a man truly loves a woman, he wants to protect her. If I could do it all over again, I think I would punch the male doctor in his throat. What a vile beast he was.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Jola, good for you, the last line in the opt-off form is so predictable…and of course, not one word about the huge number harmed by the screening process, and the latter is much more likely.
      Given they don’t give a damn about harming women, hardly surprising the enormous collateral damage doesn’t get a second thought.
      They’re protecting the program and IT’S interests, not us, or they’d be offering HPV primary testing and HPV self-testing. The emphasis would be on protecting all women, the small number at risk and the vast majority who cannot benefit from pap testing.

      • Alex says:

        You notice how it says that not attending these tests causes deaths- like the woman answering these questions is causing other women’s deaths? It’s fake blame, so there’s nothing to feel guilty about. They just act as though things are aligned that way (kind of like someone looking hurt when they’re wrong & someone goes against them). A woman being a mother is all the more reason NOT to get these things done (all the problems that come from this situation would not most likely impact the family life & if mommy dies in surgery, she definitely won’t be around to do anything).

        It’s good that your husband supports you with this, Jola. I wonder if he ever brings this subject up with his friends? “Hey guys, do any of your wives get these nagging letters in the mail?” is a good start. It’s all downhill from there- “That’s f*%#ed up, there’s why: (then he gets into how it’s an attack no matter what the mannerisms are & that, apparently, there’s a lot of risk & inaccuracy as well).” If it’s an argument, great (sometimes things being proven that way works a lot better with men, it shows more masculinity since it’s deflecting an attack & that you’re sharp enough to pick up on it). Sometimes it being brought up directly also helps other men come right out & say what they’ve been thinking all along, too. Either way, it’s pretty hard to argue that the situation is NOT what it consists of (that’s like saying “what happens isn’t what occurs”). Add in that you can’t catch something as a warning sign if you don’t notice it as a problem, and you’ve got a good safety line (in case the other guys think it’s effeminate to be concerned about the subject- now it’s a question of his attack-detection capabilities & overall combative prowess).

        These people are garbage. They act like enemies (passive-aggressive or overt), and then act like the victim is the “bad” one (a typical trait of sociopaths, I might add). It’s like they say “but still” in spite of the situation not being the way they declare. Their tact doesn’t matter: it’s an imposed interface with a sexual area that also can have additional ramifications (on their own or from one thing leading to another, either way it’s a high probablity). This is iatrogenic abuse when it does occur, it’s an attempted attack if it doesn’t. It’s not okay for them to try (that’s like saying that it’s okay for them to try to put someone in a choke hold & it’s not an attack to do so- but if they succeed, it’s that person’s liability or implied consent because it’s relatively easy to get out of). Also, is the “last reminder” supposed to be some kind of threat? What, exactly, happens after that “last reminder?”

    • Stephen says:

      Jola, thanks for your reply. The issue of social services stealing children is another topic altogether–a topic that is very dark and sinister. But it’s true that our rights are being taken away. If you want to know more about all this, look up a man on YouTube called Brian Gerrish who will explain, and provide evidence, how the UK is being attacked and by whom.

      How old were you when the NHS sent you these letters? I’ve heard they start harassing women when they are 25 years of age. Is this true?

      I actually have a book written by a male doctor called “Male Practice: How Doctors Manipulate Women.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but it does seem that most women are a little naive when it comes to medical health. I think the reason for this is because the medical profession has worked overtime to scare women with cancer. Fear is a tool that can easily control people. But let me tell you a secret. There is a Doctor named Dr. Leonard Coldwell who has cured thousands of cancer patients naturally. On YouTube he gives you free information on many different natural cancer cures, and there are multiple testimonies from people, even medical whistle blowers, who have cured their cancer naturally. My point is this–you don’t have to fear cancer. Early detection is all a hoax. It’s all about money, power, and control. Don’t fall for this rotten lie of “not submitting to these degrading exams might kill you.” This evil lie has been repeated so many times that women believe it as fact. One thing doctors hate is people educating themselves. That’s why doctors often say to their patients, “be careful what you read on the internet.” They want to keep people, especially women, ignorant sheep. Fear is their main weapon, but once you have watched some videos of Dr. Leonard Coldwell (without listening to the lies told about him), I’m confident you will no longer fear cancer.

      Many years ago, when I was with my ex girlfriend, she had to have a rape exam. She was 16 at the time. The examination revealed that she had not been raped, but they just had to make sure. However, it was a male doctor who examined her. Being 16 and vulnerable, she felt like she couldn’t say no. I literally felt sick. It felt like she had been legally violated. Why would a man want to get a job where he is able to examine women who have been raped? Did it ever cross his warped mind that raped women wouldn’t want another man examining them? After my girlfriend had been examined, it left me with mental scars. It kept coming back to haunt me. I think what hurt me the most was the fact that another man had the power to examine the woman I loved in a very personal way. How do I know he wasn’t getting a secret thrill? Some of the biggest perverts often turn out to be highly educated. I once read a true story about a few male gynecologists paying money to have sex with a prostitute who was 6 months pregnant.

      I’m glad though that there are some women like you who won’t fall for all of this. Just keep educating other women about this. That’s all we can do.


      • Alex says:

        It doesn’t matter if the one doing things gets a thrill or not, it’s still the same things going on for the person this is happening to. It’s a shame she didn’t figure this was something she steers at her discretion. It’s not really something that needs doctor conformation. As for her age (and them probably thinking she has no say because she’s a minor), that just makes it child abuse (“abuse of a minor” maybe sounds better, less condescending).

        I don’t understand what happened with your girlfriend. She didn’t go in and say “I think this happened,” obviously- so how did it come about? I know medical personnel come to their own conclusions about what someone’s going to have done to them, but I was wondering the specific scenario (I know I’d never take my kid to the hospital for stitches, since they decided to make my cousin take all her clothes off- supposedly to see if she had any bruises from being beaten at home- when she was about three years old. Even if she was getting hit at home, one trauma is worse than another- they do worse investigating less.

        That’s something I’ve noticed: They take it into their head that they want to know something & investigate it by any means, figuring everything is fine if it’s a method of doing something. The components of a methodology don’t cease to exist in their own right, anyway. They also don’t see any goal as irrelevant, either. Something can be determined, but it’s meaningless information (take dialation in pregnancy: it’s not an indicator of when the baby’s coming, but the stomach drop is).

  24. Kleigh says:

    When gardacille first came out I remember the tv adds were so frightning they showed pictuers of young woman and girls and acted as tho all of them could have died from cc had there mothers not got them the shot. What botherd me was the add said talk to your daghters doctor about gardicille. in a way that implyed the child had no say in weather or not she had the vaccine. also i see with alot of medical sites imply the mother should take there child to a gyno as tho once again the daughter had no say. the fear mongering with cc is over the top i have never seen that kind of push for other cancers.

  25. Jola says:

    TO ALEX. When it comes to a place that I could recommend in the Czech Republic, it is somewhere near Prague, and the best in Prague – a beautiful city and open-minded, friendly people. There are a number of companies in Central and Eastern Europe that would employ an expert on something with the knowledge of English. I think there would be even an opportunity to teach English as a native speaker.

    Yes, regarding contraception in the Czech Republic, it can be restrictive – the prescription of pills by a gynecologist, but it depends on a woman’s approach to the subject – she has to firmly say: I DO NOT WANT THIS, I DO NOT WISH THIS. No one can do anything by force. I think year by year it will be changing – I mean there’ll be easier access to contraception there.

    TO ELIZABETH. Elizabeth, thanks for the kind words. I just hate it when ”someone” (especially a stupid system) wants to make a fool of me – I protest then.

    As for Lithuania – you know, in the post-communist countries / states it still seems to the morons in power that they can compel people to do something, and no one will complain.

    TO STEPHEN. NHS started to send me the importunate invitations for pap crap as I came to the UK and enrolled myself and my family to the GP – when I started to be visible (as the next female bait). That was four years ago – I was 36 years old and they would send me the letters one by one, and then, a year ago (ie, three years later) again they began to send these brain washing pap crap invitations to me. I could not stand it any longer as I was feeling guilty of not undergoing something I do not believe in and, what’s more, I started thinking I was a bad mother who not ”caring” about her health, doesn’t care about her children – though I still questioned the idiotic pap crap – controversies came up, so I finally stopped that.

    You may hate me because I’m an another immigrant who – what’s worse – complains about the NHS and Social Services (I’ve read about forced ADOPTION – fear, a great fear).

    Getting back to the ”women-friendly:)” invitations I remember when in Poland I received an invitation for cytology and when I ignored it, I got another a few years later (they remembered me – :)). Then I wrote an e-mail to them that I do not wish to be sent the invitations and they wrote back (politely) that they would no longer send them to me and I never received them – they didn’t ask me to sign any rubbish.

    What you said about taking away freedom from people, it’s true. This happens everywhere, particularly in the U.S. and EU. In Poland, taking away people’s freedom is even worse – especially by stupefying people and persuading them to believe all the nonsense they’re told. Of course, there are also other aspects of depriving people of freedom. However, it all will fall, it will end. The time of the Enlightenment began on 21.12.2012 – 10 thousand years of enlightenment in Kali Yuga (iron era involving the denial of freedom to people, terrible wars, etc…). It will be over. People will be waking up, more protests will begin everywhere. In addition, the EU will collapse and it will take place in 2015/2016 . EU will not last too long – I think it will collapse until 2020. The world is changing very quickly now – it all will accelerate, the changes will be bigger and they will be everywhere. That’s why we all need to question everything – whatever you hear on the very manipulated TV, we have to ask ourselves a lot of questions, we can’t agree with what they feed us because when we accept it, we’ll submit to control. This concerns all the systems – including the NHS (as one of the main leaders of brainwashing people).

    As for the pap crap and my female friends – a lot of my friends think I’m insane saying what I say about the totally unnecessary pap crap. What can I say? IMO, some day they will understand that there’s something weird and abnormal about it – I hope they will.

    You see, millions of people, men and women do not want to think, do not bother to question various issues, do not want to approach them in logical terms. It’s easier for the majority of people when others think for them and, as a consequence, about them. Such people are afraid to decline, refuse anything because ”it will not be like everyone else or most would do so why should I stand out of the crowd with my odd beliefs?”. You know how easy it is to convince people that they are sick, to convince women that are complicated inside, because they are women, and that their health problems are the result of their femininity and women take it for granted! But, on the other hand, more and more people are starting to question various things, and it’s fantastic that more and more women are beginning to question this whole stupid babble that the NHS aims at them.

    • Alex says:

      It seems a lot of people go to Prague on vacation- maybe being a tourism translator? My cousin’s wife Iza suggested that to me with Spain (she was saying that people still go to Spain a lot & even if the country isn’t doing so well, that industry doesn’t tend to suffer much).

      Why do you say 2015/2016? I figure the EU isn’t working out so well (I like the free travel, but there can always be individual treaties that each country has with all the others), but why then? You know Iceland just had a revolution? There wasn’t even a war (just a couple of protest clashes- mild ones, at that).

      I get what you mean about people having issue with not being like everyone else & standing out from the crowd, but I never understood what the use was in being in a herd that tramples you or is galloping off the edge of a cliff. The same goes for a pack that’s going to eat you.

      Actually, you might appreciate a bit of history I recently learned (this is in Indiginous Knowledge by Rayomd Pierotti): Apparently, there’s a lot of sheep & lamb references in the Bible (at the very least, shepherding was a very common profession & was very well known). These references were taken a bit too literally & people started seeing themselves as members of a flock (in the light of prey animals, which humans are not- in the food sense of the word, humans are predators). This led to them going after the actual predator animals in the wilderness (which didn’t really go after people, even if you believe humans were meant to be vegetarian), which also caused a massive amount of ecological problems as well as being it’s own issue. Socially, anyone with “teeth” or an edge or any survivability was looked at the same way. This caused numerous problems: nobody trusted anyone, because everyone was trying to make such a display of helplessness that no one really knew if it was real or not. Problems wouldn’t get solved as much because of people not doing things against them (keeping to that lamb-like image). There was high anxiety because of all of this (distrustable environment, coupled with being hamstrung as far as problem-solving went, and all of this is what your family would be growing up in).

    • Stephen says:

      To Jola

      There’s an old saying: “A lie told often enough becomes true.” All you have to do is keep repeating something, and eventually people will come to believe it. I can’t remember his name, but a long time ago there was a man who use to examine insects. He made a mistake when examining the spider by claiming it only had six legs. So for years this is what the public believed. But one day someone examined a spider for themselves and discovered that a spider actually has eight legs, not six. But the myth of a spider having six legs was a wide spread belief, simply because nobody bothered to investigate it for themselves.

      The mind, or brain, is like a hard drive. Everything we have learned since we were born is stored in our minds. Since childhood we have been conditioned to believe that truth comes from authority. Children will believe their parents, whether it’s, “You must have your vaccines to protect you from getting sick,” or, “Santa and the tooth fairy are real.” But we are not taught to do critical thinking. We are taught to let others think and decide for us, especially if we are listening to a doctor.

      Most of us have heard the lie, “There is no cure for cancer.” This evil lie has killed millions of people. Cancer is one of the easiest diseases to cure. I’ve come across countless people who have cured their own cancer using natural treatments. Toxic chemicals cannot cure you. Only your own body and immune system can cure you. But try telling people that cancer is easily curable and they think you are crazy. But these people simply don’t understand the evil system they are fighting. They don’t realize that there is an evil agenda at work.

      I’ve heard that the government want the EU established by 2016. Apparently this is when they want to take over the world. In the mean time our freedoms are being suppressed. All you can do is stick to your guns and resist it as much as possible.

  26. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    I agree, Papscreen and Breast Screen have been relying on the same “facts” for a long time.
    I often hear women quote these facts in defence of screening. Of course, it’s propaganda, in my opinion…the evidence does not support their version of the “facts”.
    When the medical profession or government tells us something and no one challenges that fact, eventually it becomes a fact…so many women say to me, that if I’m right, why haven’t they heard any of this before?
    Yes, it’s shameful that our medical leaders and medical associations have been silent, deserting their ethical obligations to us. Some women will never accept the evidence, in some cases it’s too painful to accept they’ve endured invasive and uncomfortable testing for decades for no good reason, or endured damaging cone biopsies or surgery. We see the whole range of emotions coming forward – anger, disbelief, suspicion, aggression, tears…
    When the system sets out to deceive, with huge resources at their disposal…many will sadly, never look past the catch phrases, “catch it early, save your life”….etc.

    • Alex says:

      Stephen- Why do you say “established by 2016″? The EU is already established.

      Elizabeth- If someone says that to you, ask them if it’s ever profitable to lie. Someone might not be that way, themselves- but they’re not necessarily dealing with someone they can identify with. Also, maybe making the point that women were treated with severe malice at a few points in history & that that might have present-day ramifications. If these women want to be in denial & then lead other women into the same things they’re in denial about- I don’t see how they’re any different from the ones imposing these situations. Their “keeping the lie alive” is not somehow innocent. They’re just trying to help an enemy to harm a friend or, at least, someone they have nothing against.

      I’m not trying to downplay the issue, but I would think that’s involved here. Elevating a problem to a non-issue is always going to taste like a lie, because it is. It also inadvertantly makes whoever did it look better, plus- if you’re really going to practice what you’re pretending- it makes you vunerable to additional situations of this nature. I understand it isn’t always this thought out, but this is what you wind up with. Maybe all this woudn’t have happened in the first place if things hadn’t been seen so favorably.

      • Stephen says:


        Sorry, I meant to say that by 2016 or 2017, the government plans to have the masses under control.

  27. Jola says:

    To Alex and Stephen

    Thanks for your replies.
    The EU will be over as it’s very bureaucratic and rotten and it’s evil in itself.

    The Bible is the source of evil and keeping people under control.

    Sorry for such a short reply. I’m going on holiday and preparing the things.


    • Stephen says:


      You said the Bible is the source of all evil. Can you please provide your evidence? Atheist regimes have killed more people throughout history than all religions combined. And why attack the Bible? Why not attack the Quran?

      • Jola says:

        Hi Stephen
        Sorry for my late reply.
        Christianity is the continuation of the Roman master-servant system. This post Roman system – Christianity – was established to keep people, especially women, under control. Islam is stricter than Christianity, of course. Both the Bible and the Quran were written on the basis of Semitic things. Well, …:)

      • Alex says:

        Jola, I’ve got two questions: the first one is if you have any references to the Slavic Vedas (prefereably in English, since I’m still working on learning Russian on & off)? I’m, at the very least, very curious about the religion of my ancestors. I don’t know how optimistic I am about things getting better as time goes on, but maybe it is true.

        I also wanted to ask you about Prague. A major reason why I’m moving is so my family & descendants can have a safer living environment & medical tyranny is a part of it. I was wondering if I were to bring these things that are imposed on women & that it is abuse no matter what the designation or variation & that I didn’t find it a trustable environment overall if I would come off considerate or creepy. I guess it’s hard to predict how someone will react individually, but I was wondering if an answer to a question is a serious one, is it just seen as the answer to the question? I don’t really know what to expect from living in America so long, but I always presumed women resented being manhandled & told what to do- much less attacked sexually.

        Stephen- I’m relatively sure the atheist regimes haven’t killed more, but I DO think there should be a sense of right & wrong. My grandmother calls it the “Holy Spirit.” The Quran does seem much more off-the-wall & has been for 1400 years. If you look up Norway Rape Epidemic or anything about muslims in Norway or Sweden, you see that there are massive increases in rape & child molestation wherever they go. I figure evil has been around since before humanity even started (that’s why I believe physcial combat to be a primal skill), it’s just taken different tacts & variations.

    • Alex says:

      The bureaucracy is something severe, I’ve heard. The Bible seems to have a lot of things that contradict each other (treating women badly, despite God creating them & Jesus having both a wife & a mother- from what it seems).

    • stephen says:


      One of the reasons Jesus was hated by the Pharisees is because he had compassion on women and treated women in such a way that was unrecognised in his time. Biblical Christianity commands husbands to love and honor their wives, to be willing to die for their wives. Over the centuries the catholic church corrupted the true teachings of Christianity and that’s when the problems started. But I don’t know why women are always playing the victim. They still have benefits that men don’t have.

      • Alex says:

        Because a lot of times they’re the ones that get victimized. I figure Jesus probably was a bit different with women than the surrounding population of his time, but Christianity has played a major role in causing major problems in history. That doesn’t mean that these problems didn’t fly in the face of the religion, but the “organization,” if you will, did plenty harm.

        Personally, I figure a man is supposed to be “functional.” This means being protective (which includes not being dictatorial & possessive, because that’s a problem in itself- being the hero of the war & the tryant of the house is abject failure), to take an interest in his family, be accurate (seeing a situation for it’s contents, not arbitrary designations), capable of learning & self-criticism, being good-hearted (that he’s not arbitrarily cruel- this would include being antagonistic to enemies, since it’s pretty cruel to someone you do care about to not drop the hammer on someone that’s after them), and able to handle himself (fighting, food, whatever- not being a baby that needs everyone to tend to him).

        I’m kind of curious what you ladies think of my interpretation of how a man should be, but I was also trying to point out that the Bible sometimes advocates this sort of thing & sometimes it doesn’t.

  28. Look at how a woman is disturbed that her boyfriend who is a pediatrician does pelvic and breast exams at http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/having-trouble-dating-a-doctor#axzz2eXU8NuCD. It is very disturbing he does pelvic / breast exams on teenage girls and young women up to 21 years old according to http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/having-trouble-dating-a-doctor#post-2990031. How terrible that is! I disagree with many of the comments on this forum of course, but Marriedman had some excellent points.

    I learned about this forum because my sitemeter tracker showed that someone added a link to my web site. Marriedman (http://boards.weddingbee.com/topic/having-trouble-dating-a-doctor/page/2#post-6451200) added a link to MPM’s web site.


    • Alex says:

      It’s very creepy. He backs these people into exams, first of all (imposing this situation, and on younger girls- it’s still wrong with a grown woman, but it’s worse with the younger generation). These exams are not generally useful & the limited use someone could get out of it is something that someone can do for themselves. They constantly say “it’s not sexual,” “he looks at this all the time” (and, obviously, quite a bit more- not that frequency dilutes anything), and even “he’s not looking at a naked woman, he’s looking at a patient.”

      That patient IS a naked woman. What? Does the one saying that think that the situation is magically transformed by designation? That’s what I mean by insanity. If he killed one of these girls, it’d definitely be that he murdered someone. There’s no loopholes to reality for doctors.

      If they wind up retarded from surgical complications (forgetting to put a stopper in the morphine drip, for instance) in a useless surgery that he gave them the false impression that there was a problem to have this surgery to fix, that was deduced through unreliable testing that, which is imposed on them to begin with (whether through deception, coercion, or other means of imposition)- that would be non-existant? If it happens medically, it doesn’t happen? They certainly seem to think there are actual circumstances in the opposite direction.

      • stephen says:

        Alex, you’re confusing Christianity with Churchianity. People who do bad things in the name of Christianity are not following Jesus Christ. They are actually disobeying his commandments. Throughout history people have done bad things. Professing Christians have done bad things, Muslims have done bad things, and atheists have done bad things. I am against these medical perverts who take advantage of women, but I do believe that women do play the victim too much, especially now that women tend to have more rights and support than men.

  29. Moo says:

    ok so this is what happened. It was similar to the case of the sore toe and ends up being ambushed for a pap test. I said no. HE GOT ANGRY. I could see it in the body language and hear it in his tone. “but if you don’t have a pap test then you are going to get cancer”. I told him that I would not get cancer from NOT having a pap test. I am not that stupid.

    The next opportunity for ambush was again a medical problem unrelated to my gonads. I said no. He got ANGRY again. He then informed that he had been through my medical records and HE KNEW about me – how long since I gave up pap tests. He even said that he knew about my abnormal result and HE would have sent me to a colposcopy. All said with ANGER. Was that a punishment for refusing his rape exam?

  30. stephen says:

    Moo, this was appalling. To be honest i’m getting quite fed up with these medical nut jobs dictating what we must do with our own bodies. Just stick to your guns and throw it back in their face every chance you get.

  31. Moo says:

    It is about sex because if I got to an appointment with my husband then he never mentions a Pap test. If I go alone he asks me when was my last menses, how often I have sex, and other questions. He knows that I do not feel comfortable getting examined even with clothing .

    No doubt some doctors are sexual predators.

    • Lynne says:

      I think that jerk was getting off on making you uncomfortable. When you get to be my age (mid fifties like Elizabeth) you learn how to turn the tables real fast.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Moo, I think it’s a power thing, they have to be comfortable with the power dynamic in the room and the presence of your husband changes things…doctors who screen opportunistically, coerce and use extreme pressure are IMO, either predators or unethical…opportunists/predators look for the easiest target, someone they believe they can overwhelm safely. I think some/many male doctors would feel uncomfortable pressuring a woman to have a pap test when she’s there for a migraine…with her husband sitting next to her. Treating women disrespectfully and unethically/badly is more acceptable/easier when they’re alone.
        Also, I’ve read if you’re unknown to the doctor, you’re more likely to be pressured to have a pap test right then and there. So walk-in clinics are especially dangerous if you don’t feel you can fend off the pressure.

        Lynne, some things get better with age, wine…and the power dynamic in the consult room. Although sadly, many women our age roll onto their back automatically when asked to do so…after decades of pap tests etc. they’re almost on auto-pilot.
        I almost feel like a military veteran at this stage of my life, managed to get through the medical war zone unscathed…but it’s been horrible to see so many women fall along the way, victims of medical abuse, these programs and the system.
        Some women trust the medical profession, they’ve really suffered, such easy targets, like shooting fish in a barrel.

  32. Mary says:

    One thing that really irks me about male gyns is their comparison of women to cars. More than once I have heard this metaphor from male gyns. Eg “getting under the bonnet” or this one:

    “As a doctor who sees a lot of sick vaginas in my ER practice and volunteers doing primary care at a women’s health center (where the vaginas are not sick but just need the tires rotated and oil checked) I can tell you there is nothing pervy about what I do.”

    It is so offensive that they can’t see us a people, just inanimate objects. And secondly from this same thread. This:

    “My dad’s a gynecologist, too, and probably the least perverted person I’ve met. He taught me early on that most people who go to gynecologists are old, ugly ladies. But I do have a terrific story that undermines this point.
    So one time, while I’m in the middle of class, I get a phone call from my dad. Later, I check my messages, and get this one:

    “Hey, [PanachelessNihilist], it’s Dad. Just want to let you know I just had a patient come in who used to be a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. I can’t tell you who because of patient-doctor confidentiality, but suffice it to say this was the best breast exam I ever gave.”
    And on that day, I could tell from the glee in his voice: the decision he made 30 years earlier had finally paid off.”

    If that’s not a pervert I don’t know what is.


  33. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    If someone is in the profession for professional and noble reasons, the type of patient you see should be irrelevant…older, young, middle-aged, slim, overweight.
    When a male doctor tries to defend his position by claiming he only or mainly sees old, ugly women, he has just exposed himself as unprofessional. (at the very least)

    • Alex says:

      Maybe he or she likes old, ugly women.

      • Jola says:

        Hi Alex
        A couple of hours ago I sent you my reply just for one question and I sent you two links, but my comment is being moderated. If it is so, I will reply to your two questions now that I have some more time.

        I will start from your second question. First of all, I think you are planning to do a great thing which is moving from the USA – a good choice. One more thing, my congratulations on your learning Russian – what about Polish or Czech :)? Anyway, when you have learnt Russian, to uderstand Polish or Czech will be easy for you, though there are certain (often) funny linguistic differences – all Slavic languages are very similar but when it comes to dissimilarities between some words, we burst laughing. Your learning the language is a very good decision. I keep my fingers crossed for your progress.

        Alex, how to respond to your question – let me think. Definitely, the attitude of doctors and medical staff in the Czech Republic is not as disrespectful as in the USA (gathering from what people here have been writing it is a horror in the US). Yet, anywhere you are, be it the Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, Croatia, Russia – such things may happen, you never know, so the most important thing is firmness and assertiveness just to say NO, just to decline something, just to signal to them you don’t wish this or that to be done to you. They will respect your choice! Do you remember what I wrote before about people’s lack of knowledge of their basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution? Just read what your basic rights AS A PATIENT’s are. The same concerns your family – conversation with the medical staff and there is just no ‘must’. ”Excuse me, but my body is my body and I don’t wish this or that.” Your attitude will not be considered stupid, abnormal, old-fashioned or insane as this is your right to express your views. I can give you my example – I lived in Poland till the age of 36 and I never ever was asked by my GP (a female doctor) if I had ever had a pap smear – never did she ask me, never did any of the doctors (I always chose female doctors) ask me such a question. I was never coerced into having one done. Once I had problems with my spine and went to a clinic and there was a male doctor there. I was wearing my bra and a very thin vest. He said nothing to me to take them off (I was ready to tell him that my religion doesn’t let me undress in front of men – hahahaha but I wasn’t asked to do anything.) Suddenly he asked me if I examined my breast on my own adding that so many women had problems with lumps which later on led to cancer. Well, I looked at him and asked him if he cared about his health – he was surprised and said: ”yeah, I do” so I answered that he is responsible for his health and so am I – he asked no more questions – he might have been in his sixties. Well, it all depends on our attitude, what we bring in the consulting room with us and we should be assertive all the time – wherever we are. I’ve just recalled something. Once I read on an Internet forum a comment, actually a question from a man from Poland who asked how to convince his wife to have some medical exams done as she was pregnant and she didn’t want any exams at all – even an ultrasound or blood pressure checked, or her blood taken for testing – just nothing at all. The man seemed very worried. Why am I writing this? Because I want to point out that it was the woman’s (his wife’s) choice not to have any examinations done during pregnancy. She could have wanted to have everything very natural – who knows? She wasn’t an illegal immigrant without rights and she could have her pregnancy well taken care of but she didn’t wish to – and that’s all. It was totally her choice and she didn’t let anybody dictate her what to do.
        Your point of view is to be respected.

        Alex, my next reply – I was stupid to send you the links which are awaiting moderation now. Please, go to google paste this: VILASA BHIKKU – PODOBIENSTWA JĘZYKA POLSKIEGO I PALI – ARTYKUŁ ZE SRI LANKI
        It is in Polish and in English it says: V… B…. – SIMILARITIES OF THE POLISH ALNGUAGE AND THE PALI LANGUAGE – AN ARTICLE FROM SRI LANKA. Remember, look for this article in wordpress – bialczynski dot wordpress, ok? Pali used to be a liturgic language in Sri Lanka. When you are at the page, you will have it both in Polish and in English. Underneath, I mean under the bigger pictures, under ”APPENDIX” you will have language comparisons (Pali/Polish and then Pali/Russian), just go down to have them. Anyway, it is worth reading the whole article. The similarities are incredible. By this I don’t mean that only Polish and Russian are similar to Pali – all Slavic languages are similar to Pali as in the ancient times it was one language spoken by great numbers of people called Slavs (not from ‘slave’ but from ‘slowo’ – word and ‘slawa – slava – swaha’ – ‘glory’, ‘fame’). The Slavic people were also called Venedi/Veneti/Veleti – which means ‘wielki” – ”huge”/”great”/”many”/”plenty of”. The truth about Slavic people is reviving. Next, go to Youtube and just type: SLAVIC VEDAS – there you’ll find a lot of information on the subject.

        Good luck Alex.

      • Alex says:

        Thank you so much, Jola. I think I’d wind up learning languages as a hobby (after I learned Spanish & Russian a lot of other ones would be easier- after that, I could get passable in other ones & just keep building them here & there). I also want to learn something like Basque or one of the American Indian languages, too- just out of curiosity & the fact that they seem to be “original languages’ (Basque doesn’t seem to have any roots in any other language- so it’s pretty ancient- I think that’s cool, if nothing else). I always had a knack for language & it seems I’ll have quite an advantage from speaking English (including being able to translate bullshit, haha!). Good luck for your things, too!

        If I Google the thing about similarities in the Polish language with Pali in English will it still come up? I saw a bunch of things, but I don’t know if they’re the same. I’ll just type it in the first way later. I remember that thing about Slavic not meaning “slave.” It was something else, then used as an insult by people that enslaved them from time to time.

      • Jola says:

        Hi Alex, yes of course, it will come up, for sure. If not (which I don’t believe) just let me know.

  34. ADM (Canada) says:

    The stories on here of medical appointments becoming focused on pap smears instead of the patients presenting problem have me thinking of a bad date where you spend your whole time trying to keep the guy out of your pants. Medical appointments should not be that stressful or traumatizing.
    I don’t know on which thread this was said, or by whom, but there is an assumption in the medical world that women do not have modesty (or we’re not allowed to have it) and that we are totally comfortable with hoping on the table and spreading our legs for anyone no questions asked. Even with ultrasounds it’s assumed that women will have a transvaginal ultrasound without being asked if she is comfortable with it. From what I’ve read the transvaginal ultrasound is not needed but only allows things to be seen clearer but external is sufficient. A couple of years ago I happened to tune in to Dr Oz’s show and they pulled a woman out of the audience to demonstrate an external abdominal ultrasound and her ovaries and uterus were clearly visible. I do not understand this constant need to perform intimate exams on women when other tests are available and sufficient for diagnosis.

    • stephen says:


      I think the reason doctors think women have no modesty is because most women go along with it. I’ve had numerous women get angry at me for speaking against these exams. If the majority of women are happy to defend this medical perverts, then there’s not an awful lot you can do. It’s the women who need to stand up against these people.

    • Alex says:

      Some things are more of a self-defense thing than a modesty issue. I get the referecne, but I’d go with having “bodily autonomy” instead of “modesty”- since it covers more ground & a woman may, for instance, be okay with going topless at the beach but it’s definitely an issue if someone decides to start interjecting their own actions on that level. She’s not “modest” per se, but that doesn’t mean it’s non-antagonistic for someone to start comporting the situation third-party.

      • Jola says:

        Alex, no, I’ve just checked – it won’t appear in English. Copy the title which I gave you in Polish and paste it in Google. This article IS BOTH IN POLISH AND ENGLISH – you’ll find information about it without problems. The info is very clear in both languages.

        Wow, Basque must be hard to learn, the same the otherlanguages you mentioned. It’s your passion.

  35. Moo says:

    Information about sexual coercion. http://bandbacktogether.com/sexual-coercion-resources/

    “Am I Being Sexually Coerced?

    Sometimes, it’s really hard to identify if you’ve been, or are being, sexually coerced. You ARE being sexually coerced if the following behaviors are noted:

    You don’t feel you have a choice
    You’re being pressured constantly
    You’re being pressured even after you’ve said “no.”
    You face possible social consequences if you don’t engage in a certain type of sexual behavior.
    Someone uses their authority or power to get you to engage in sexual behaviors.”

    Same as doctors pressuring women for pap/pelvic exams. And do not tell me that vaginal and breast exams are in no way ever sexual for most male doctors.

  36. lizza869 says:

    I wonder if they would do the same thing to men if there test involved a form of penis exfoliation….
    “Recent research studies have looked at ways of getting a better sample from men, such as using a fine-grade of sand paper to “exfoliate” the skin; yes, our reaction was the same as yours…”

  37. Jonathan says:

    I’ve just noticed this old thread and have to say I’m pleased there are actually people out there that have the ability to think for themselves and take the initiative to investigate things that concern their own health and bodies.

    I’m a male and for as long as I can remember have had issues with what women are put through with this test. When I was 18 my gf at the time was told she had to have one even though we’d only slept with each other, I complained that it was a disgrace but she didn’t care and replied ‘if I have to there’s nothing I can do about it’. Those words have haunted me ever since and every relationship I have been in since I’ve been accused of being jealous, insecure and even had someone ask if I’ve been sexually abused… Err no I’m just clearly switched on enough to realise how wrong it is on so many levels!
    I know all the stats of the test and it makes me physically sick to think women are subjected to something so undignified and they don’t even bother to look at the facts.. Mindless sheep.
    It has ruined most of my relationships because as soon as they toddle off for their check up so blindly it just eats at me till I walk away.. I’ve found its pointless even telling them why I have because women seem to have been so deeply brainwashed that they all just think a guy that actually cares deeply for them and doesn’t want them subjected to pointless degrading tests is really only a jealous control freak.
    I’m currently with a girl who I truly love with all my heart, she was tested after only 4 months of being together and it made me sick but it wasn’t my place to say anything yet, nor did she tell me till after it was done. I’m just hoping there are self test kits or more evidence I can use to show her she has a choice and how misleading it is before it’s due again in 3 years..

    • Alex says:

      There ARE self-testing kits. Don’t know how you bring things up to the women you’re with, but maybe a couple of suggestions would be welcome? This is a little long, but some of it bears explaining:

      (1) Stating things in a very simple way. I don’t mean this condescendingly, but just getting right to the point that the properties of a situation don’t change because the designation. This is an invasive, high risk, low utility thing that it IS actually illegal for them to coerce someone into (making these tests conditional to get birth control, saying they’ll drop someone as a patient, etc…). It’s simply called “iatrogenic assault” when it’s done with medical procedures. After all, a situation is what it consists of (ex: if a doctor were to poison someone with a needle, it’s still murder- using a medical methodology doesn’t change that).
      (2) Make a real point that you’re not trying to manage her situations, but that someone else certainly seems to be doing so. Deception vitiates consent- it’s not someone making their own decisions if someone is lying to them & these things don’t work as advertised. There are risks & inaccuracies (that can very well lead to all kinds of tests & surgeries for nothing, by-the-way). There is also a massive rarity of occurance with this ailment (cervical cancer is about half of 1%). It’s much more likely to get liver or thyroid cancer & there’s no aggressive pursuit or testing for those.
      (3) This brings up the point of financial motives for doctors to do these things, as well as ulterior motives. Doctors actually receive incentive payments (bonuses) for reaching target numbers & the same seems true with surgeries (it has something to do with insurance companies giving the doctor a reward for cutting things out of people). There’s also generating repeat costs by lying or sabotaging someone, because now they come back for more procedures & follow-ups. If these things cause problems or give unreliable results, this will add to things.
      (4) Make a suggestion about her doing her own research. Medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not academic value & if she chooses not to integrate these situations into her life- that’s her call, not the doctor’s or her mother’s (or whoever else’s).
      (5) Point out that bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness are NOT defective traits. It’s not stupid to think compositionally, either. “Your body, your rules” is not somehow immature. If somoene were to say “Let me play doctor on you or you’re fired/evicted” that’s a coercive attack, isn’t it? Same goes with death threats, but it still applies with fraudulent claims of life-threatening situations.
      (6) There IS a risk of STD’s (which are detectable by blood & urine tests, plenty of people don’t know that). This is a real concern in medical settings, anyway- but that actually could cause you some problems, too. They only say “if you sleep with someone, it’s like sleeping with everyone they’ve ever slept with”- never the other methods of transfer.

      Hope this helps. A man should take an interest in what happens to the people he cares about (at least what gets AIMED at them) & this all makes a broad point- since this is what passes for quality personnel & information, what does that mean about everything else?

    • really? says:

      Jonathan, i needed 14 years to break that particular brainwashing program with Her.

      Don’t attack at your current gf with tons of arguments and data, no luck there. It’s not about data and argumentation, it’s about Energies.

      Try to explain to her, Quietly and Calmly, your issues connected to this story. If she doesn’t just dismiss you, you have a material to work with.

      Don’t delude yourself that you may find switched on partner, destiny doesn’t work that way usually. Just relax and enjoy the game of opening.

      • Alex says:

        I don’t mean to make too much of an inference, here- but I wasn’t suggesting he “attack” her with all kinds of information, just to mention these things. I don’t know what you mean by “Energies” but if women knew about the risks, inaccuracies, and financial incentives for these tests- not to mention the term “iatrogenic attack” (since some people act like nothing the doctor does is ever an attack- especially not in “that” way).

        A lot of women get the “party line” about how they’re going to die without these tests & that they are both safe & effective ways of detecting something that’s common & just so happen to be caused by something she does and none of these things are true. Might be helpful to hear that.

        It doesn’t make any sense to presume that just because someone is a woman that she’ll get something that only a woman can get, but her female-ness is functionally considered a medical issue on its own. Might be helpful to make that point, too- it kind of permeats everything.

        It doesn’t make sense to say “What happens ISN’T what occurs,” either- but that’s the point that’s made when someone acts like a doctor doing something of this compositional make up is not a variation of assault. That’s a real helpful one & it applies to plenty of other things, too.

      • Alex says:

        I forgot to add in: maybe it won’t take 14 years if you actually spell things out clearly. This could be 14 years of her getting put through all kinds of things, as well as a future miscarriage (and the kid might very well be yours, don’t forget).

    • Melanie says:

      Exactly. I’m glad you understand. I’m never getting a Pap smear. I think they are a perversion. Women shouldn’t feel pressured into getting one. I don’t understand why they are so hard to refuse. If a doctor ever pressures, bullies threatens me into getting one, I get angry, not afraid. That’s when I walk out.

  38. starlight77 says:

    I went to the doctor for something random, and ended up speaking to her about contraception. She tried to talk me out of the Pill and into the injection… I said that if I was going to use birth control that I’d prefer the Pill… and in the end declined to get either as she didn’t seem to want me to get the Pill…. she then began to pry about whether I’d had a pap smear (if I wanted one, I’d have asked her), I hadn’t and she recommeneded that I make an appointment at a later date to have one (as I was on my period at the time so she couldn’t very well ask me to submit to it then and there)…. fast forward two years… I go to the doctor about sinusitis and to get some MRI results from earlier in the year. The same doctor is back, she greets me by saying “we’ve met before” and immediately I feel uncomfortable. We discuss sinusitis for a while, then I ask her about my MRI results and she explains that… she suddenly mentions Pap Smears and asks if I’ve ever had one elsewhere, insists she’s done lots of them and they won’t take long if I want one then and there… then decided it might put pressure on my sinus and make me uncomfortable…. I felt incredibly pressured by her (and by the way I have had the Gardisil/ HPV vaccine) to the point where I’d do my utmost to prevent having her as my doctor again…… I think male doctors are less likely to try and get you to have one when your visit is unrelated because its sort of not appropriate….

    • Moo says:

      No. The female ones can have the same computer software for their files that “helps” them remember who to pester for Pap tests and birth control. Then she could also ask you how long your cycle is (also out that in the computer) and then want you to come back in two weeks (when you are finished your menstruation) so know the reason why you are coming in for an appointment. You can say no thank you or that was not the reason you came in and please concentrate on the main issue. The docotrs usually get some extra money for doing Pap tests or giving out birth control (since you have to keep coming in for the prescription).

      If you decide to have a Pap test please be informed what happens and what it is all abou. You probably do not need one unless you have had sex and are over 25 or 30 years old, you have HPV or having some bleeding after sex. Your body, your decision.

      I am using a salt inhaler for my sinus and it has improved the situation very much. Plus making sure to clean the bathroom of any mold.

    • Alex says:

      Also, they might feel like they can get away with more- since some people act like nothing a woman does to another woman is an attack. Knowing how a woman thinks might make it easier for them to play mind games with her, as well. I believe the correct term for that would be “mental vitiation”- just like wrestling & fighting with someone is “physical vitiation.”

      It seems to frequently turn into an endurance event. Someone says “No” & then they ask “Why?” in an attempt to kick the chair out from under your reasoning. Someone might not really be able to articulate things easily in the first place, but if they do manage to convey sexual dissonance (that something is “against the grain” on that level) someone else usually argues. I don’t know where you are, but in America that is definitely a common thing. They dispute things as if something ceases to exist despite its existANCE.

      If someone brings up any concerns about risks or inaccuracies, they just dismiss that as untrue or irrelevant. Accepting risk on someone else’s behalf is very simply PUTTING someone at risk. Them endangering someone isn’t somehow less of an attack because they don’t have any problem doing it.

      If someone brings up an issue with someone else comporting their situations they argue against that, too. Ultimately, it all comes down to whether something transpires or not.

  39. Kleigh says:

    They call that opertunistic i think. Usung every visit a woman goes to push screeng. Personaly I whould have been stern with her that I was not gona have a pap smear. If she kept on I whould stand up and walk out. I understand that not everyone feels they can do that and it might be a issue to go see another doctor. I really think doctors should be forced to respect patent wishes. IT also ticks me off that they still try to link pap smears with birth control and other things. This behavor deters some woman from geting help that they need for other health problems.

  40. I just want to give my feedback because I have had a pap smear, the new age for having a pap smear is 21 at least in SC. I told my doctor this and he got all wordy with me, when I went into my ob for a pap smear she told me that it was the new law and he should have kept his mouth shut. I have endometriosis and pap smears are pretty much usless for endo. when I go in for a checkup I almost always ask for an ultrasound. A pap smear will not show anything regarding endo. paps are designed for basically cervical cancer and abnormalities however if I were to have a pap smear right now it would not tell me about the endo. pap smears are stupid for a lot of reason. If you are sleeping around it would be wise to have one every year, but health professionals push them way to much on younger girls which is a joke bc cervical cancer is EXTREMLY RARE! I am 50/50 with pap smears. To be honest what’s to say you might not get some other cancer, I don’t understand pap’s that much.

    • Alex says:

      Keep in mind that what you have seems to be caused by too much estrogen- probably in your diet (especially if you live in America). Actually, a lot of female issues are liver-related (it doesn’t filter out the extra hormones & such).

      Rosemary Gladstar gets into things like this in a bunch of her books, if you’re interested in that.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      21 is still way too young. The pap test was designed (way back in the 1930’s by the way) to detect a specific type of cervical cancer. This type generally occurs in older women, not women in their teens and twenties. The type that the youngest women develop is very difficult to detect with a pap test, so they could be given the ‘all clear’ when they actually DO have cancer. Many countries don’t start testing until 25 or even 30 for this reason.
      The pap test is just a scraping of skin cells. An exfoliation of the cervix, if you like. These cells are then studied under a microscope to determine whether they’re *normal* or not.
      The problem is that these cells can change and look *abnormal* for any number of reasons. Anything that irritates or imbalances the skin can cause the cells to look *abnormal*. Hell, even the natural changes in pregnancy can cause those cells to look peculiar.
      The end result of inflicting this unreliable test on masses of women is that vast numbers are told they’re at risk of getting cancer and endure treatments which can be very damaging when the abnormality detected is perfectly harmless and would resolve on it’s own.
      Testing the very youngest women means more profit from unnecessary tests and surgeries, so either your doctor is painfully ignorant about paps himself and follows the old mantra of ‘get ’em while they’re young’ or he’s just in it for the money.

  41. June Gardner says:

    I kept saying “NO’ to gynaecologists when the bullied me into procedures I did not want or need and they still ended up lying through their teeth, fabricating I had cancer and slaughtering 6 healthy organs from my body. If one person had said to me to beware of gynaecologists, that 90% of all their procedures are unnecessary, especially hysterectomies, I would still have my healthy female organs fully intact and would be jumping for joy today, not doubled over in agony because the Professor of Gynaecology who bullied and threatened me into it botched it irreparably….

  42. lonn hoffman says:

    What about men who are bullied into colonoscopy? Or are just women bullied? You must be a feminist

    • Alex says:

      Men are also mentioned from time to time. Actually, it’s interesting that you mentioned someone being a feminist (whoever you’re talking to & keep in mind I’m a guy), since the “-ist” in “feminist” seems to frequently work out to be like the “-ist” in “motorist.” Like “one who operates.” The feminists do quite a bit to push women into these things & to “push” governments into driving all kinds of programs & schedules that the doctors may or may not get incentive payments to make happen. It seems that plenty of women see other women as their territory.

  43. Pamela says:

    I was being bullied for an endometrial biopsy for a one time light spotting I said i would think about it if it happened again. I was about 45 twars old heading into perimenapause and never hd an issue again. I kept getting phone calls and then letters. I politely called and asked to stop writing that I did not want biopsy.
    Months later my pcp asked me to get a hormonal workup. I called my obgyn and they refused to see me on the basis i had missed too many appts. Funny this was right after i called about the biopsy. They referred me to Dr (moderated) in (moderated) ma. Where I was told he would test for hormones but only after a pap. I reluctantly succumbed to all this bullying and during this exam this dr basicall assaulted me
    He never introduced himself after bargjng into the room without knocking. He would not let me speak after i tried an introduction. He asked questions abut the whereabouts and ages of my kids then rudelly told me to lay back
    Within moments i felt the most horrible pain making me jump up from the table. The nurse did not even look at me as I cried. ( I was not allowed to speak to thus nurse after the fact either) the drs head came up slightly but never acknowledged my pain. He continued to do things. i then felt aggressive scraping on both of my sides. 5 long scrapes. I then saw a large piece of bulbous tissue with blood traces in it dropped into a cup the nurse was holding. I was told to cough repeatdedly harder and harder while he viewed me from far across the room with speculum WIDE OPEN.
    He then put his hands inside me pulling down on organs and at the end if exam i was packed with some gel.
    The day after i felt a tearing and dropping pain in my tummy. Hunched over in pain then began to bleed and cramp. Then burning in my vagina and down my legs and into my abdomen. Months of undiagnoses and extreme pain and discomfort. I now have prolapsed bladder. Vulvodynia and thrombosed hemmorrhoids. Ladies BEWARE OF BULLYING DRS. WORSHIP AND PROTECT YOUR BODY. IT IS OURS AFTER ALL. IT IS NOT FOR SCIENCE
    Obviously. (Moderated)

  44. Linda says:

    Hi Pamela. I am so sorry you have been through this nightmare. I am sure you have found it so hard to share your experience here. This is a very safe sight which I myself have only joined recently. We support you totally. You have been assaulted most deff. You did not deserve it and I am sure you are very rightly angry. It is rape. It is assault. You have been attacked. If you have such a thing as rape Crisis where you are then i suggest you contact them. You need help dealing with the aftermath of what happened to you.

    Try and find a doctor you can totally trust if you need further help. Rape Crisis can put you in touch with one.

    What you have been left with may seem devastating but I assure you, you can come back from each of these. I have improved my prolapse incredibly to the point where it no longer bothers me. You can too. It will take diet and exercise, supplements and sunlight but you can do it. We are all here for you. For some very good tips on recovery after mistreatment in the gyno office you should access a site called ‘womenagainststirrups’ there is loads of natural healing remedies there to help you. in the meantime please feel free to express your anger here. we have all been through it I assure you.

    • Alex says:

      There’s something to be said for circumventing situation where things like this can happen. Whatever you want to call it, a situation where it might turn into a trap around you (even if it didn’t start that way) or one where you might get stuck (like when they keep doing something even if you say to stop). I guess these environments aren’t held in the same esteem as a boat or a basement.

  45. Melanie says:

    I’ve had a similar experience with my current doctor just recently. I came to a clinic as a new patient for a refill on my prescription. The first and only question I am asked by my doctor before booting me out the door moments later is “When was your last Pap smear?” I’ve never had had one. Memories of sexual abuse as a child prevent me from ever wanting a Pap smear from a complete stranger. The very thought terrifies me. My doctor responded so carelessly. As If I was being unreasonable. He insisted that I make an appointment to get a Pap smear before leaving. I ignored his request, of course. Before heading out the front door, the doctor stopped me and reminded me a second time. He even attempted to make the appointment for me without my consent. We were in the middle of discussing times and dates for the appointment when I finally put my foot down and refused the appointment. He then canceled the appointment. I barely escaped. I don’t care how “important” or “necessary” I am told they are. I have every right to refuse.

    • Alex says:

      I notice that a lot of women have had bad experiences before (either as a child or adult) & they often refuse things like this- maybe it’s because it’s hard to bullshit someone about something not being abuse when they have that kind of history (not to make it out to be a good thing & someone could easily see the forest for the trees to begin with). I think it’s that there’s a more clear identification of this being an affront, but with an unconventional methodology. Of course, this is something the doctors seem to pick up on, too- that’s why they jump to the conclusion that someone’s been attacked in a pervy way if counter someone trying to back them into these kinds of situations.

      Someone that’s been shanked in prison isn’t going to think: “Oh, well they’re doing an action with something that isn’t specifically designated a weapon, so it’s not really an attack.” If they were trying anything with anything, it’d probably get picked-up-on.

      That said, I figure it’s entirely possible to just make a deduction- instead of having a scar to learn from. All the bravado & bullshit really doesn’t “catch” with me, since all that “battle experience” (or whatever someone wants to call it) is supposed to do all the same shit that insight (or conscientiousness or whatever someone wants to call it) would do in the first place. Keep in mind that I’m a guy & these themes are prevalent like you wouldn’t believe. “Oh, you mean fail & have a problem so I don’t have a second problem- even though I saw the first one coming? Sure, that sounds great- not like it’s not sabotage at all!”

  46. kat rehman says:

    Well said., and that is what we have to remember, and push across to everyone we can. I’m new on this site, and feel so much better for opting out of the dreadful system of invitations we have in the UK. I no longer dread the post with my next “invitation “and feel so good at saying NO!! If you read the information out there the test really isn’t even fit for purpose, and there are less invasive tests available for those who wish to screen, but of course the old speculum smear is rammed down our throat or should I say up our vaginas!!

    • kleigh us says:

      Your not alone. I’m 30 and refused pap smears. Remember no matter what they say no one can force you. It is in THERE best interest to have every woman pap smeared.

      • kat rehman says:

        Thanks Kleigh and I’ve not smeared in 15 years. Surprise surprise im still alive and kicking and so much better for taking back control of my life and my body

    • linda says:

      Hi mel and kat. After all my paps i felt violated. They are vile and disgusting. I wish i had never had them. I have only had sex with my husband and we were virgins unril we were married. But what i have been left with is the feeling that i have had an endless procession of people rooting round in my vagina. Its a horrible feeling yhat i have allowed these abuses to go on. I was tricked into them as i believed they were mandatory to get the pill. Doctors and nurses (who i would love to name and shame here) actually collude to rape women. As far as i am concerned the nhs raped me on seven seperate occasions. no one can be prosecuted. I have contacted evety solicitor in uk and no one is interested. I havd contacted politicians and nhs officials and evetyone is passing the buck. I’m so glad you have the inner will to say no. I just hope more women say no. I’m so glad of this site it gives me comfort.

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