Three Ways to Combat Doctors Bullying You Into Unwanted Pap Tests and Pelvic Exams

If you have gone to a doctor for a health concern that is unrelated to your reproductive health, and if you do not want a pap test/pelvic exam/STD test, but find your doctor pressuring you into one – even after you have already said no – then here are three ways to combat the doctor’s unethical behavior:

1)  Bring a tape or digital recorder along on your visit.  Some cell phones have one built in but if you need to purchase one they are fairly inexpensive.  You can put the recorder in a discreet location such as a pocket, bag, or propped in an outer purse pocket.  This way if your doctor refuses to treat you based on your decision to decline a pap test/ pelvic exam, and the health condition you had gone to see your doctor for worsens – or if you end up in emergency due to being ousted from your doctor’s office – then you will have recorded proof of the doctor’s unethical behavior.  Recording a conversation without the doctor’s knowledge is legal in most countries as long as you are involved in the conversation, but check to determine laws in your own country.

2)  Bring a companion along on your visit.  With a second person present the doctor will be less likely to be aggressive regarding a pap test/vaginal exam.  If the doctor refuses to allow your companion into the consult room, leave and find a different doctor.  If you have brought your recorder with you, try to get the doctor’s response on record.

3)  Prepare a typed or written document and ask the doctor to sign it, for example:

I, Doctor ____________, am refusing to treat the following patient ____________, on this date_________, based on the patient’s refusal to consent to an optional cancer screening test (undergo a pap test/vaginal exam).

Of course the doctor will most likely refuse to sign such a document, but simply preparing the document and asking the doctor to sign it will help isolate and highlight the doctor’s unethical behavior.

Information on informed consent for cervical cancer screening: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/11/informed-consent-missing-pap-smears-cervical-cancer-screening.html

Research regarding unnecessary pap tests/vaginal/bimanual exams: http://forwomenseyesonly.wordpress.com/2012/09/30/battle-brewing-over-pointless-pelvic-exams/

Story of doctors bullying women into pap tests:  http://forwomenseyesonly.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/what-some-male-doctors-do-when-women-say-no/

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About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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55 Responses to Three Ways to Combat Doctors Bullying You Into Unwanted Pap Tests and Pelvic Exams

  1. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Sue, another great article.
    Given they don’t play fair, I think women should do whatever they feel comfortable doing and saying to avoid being pressured or coerced into pap testing. (or anything else) I know women who say they were tested while overseas, know they’re HPV negative (which normally throws our doctors, we’re not supposed to understand the significance of that)…they’re menstruating, they’re in a rush, they only see a female doctor or their regular doctor for that sort of exam. Or you can set out the research in writing and test the water…is this a doctor who’ll respect your wishes? Or, discuss the matter with the doctor when the subject arises…again you’ll know pretty quickly whether this is the doctor for you. I’ve found doctors rely on our ignorance and retreat quickly when faced with an informed woman…and some GPs simply don’t know the facts, they’ve accepted the “facts” as well. Others take the view while the program is in place, it’s safer for them to recommend it, or if there is some benefit, no matter how small, they should keep recommending it…a bit concerning when most don’t mention the rareness of the cancer or the risks associated with testing.
    I haven’t been able to post over at Blogcritics for a few days, my comments have been blocked…I’ve sent an email to their technical people and hopefully, I’ll be online again shortly. I’m sure you didn’t think I’d run out of things to say…

  2. Elizabeth, I also have not been able to post a comment. And now when I click on my bookmark for the most recent page I am taken to a different page/site. That’s a first! Have you heard from the technical people? And you’re right, I didn’t think you had run out of things to say :)

  3. Elizabeth says:

    They asked me to try and post another comment, no luck…the
    problem still hasn’t been sorted out and I’m also having trouble loading the site. My husband jokingly said Papscreen have paid a hacker to shut down the site. Once that would have wiped out almost all of the available real information, now there are several places, including your excellent site, where women can visit and read critical comments and real information…we’ve definitely made progress. Hopefully, we’ll be back online shortly..

  4. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Some more news in the right direction – the Scottish will raise the starting age for cervical screening to age 25, in line with England. It’s amazing that some countries still screen those under 25, harm for no benefit at all.
    Of course, there is no evidence of benefit up to age 30 and now we know it’s only about 5% of women aged 30+ who are HPV positive that have a small chance of benefit…most women are not even at risk. That’s how concerning the situation is…they begrudgingly “release” women from the program…all that money from over-treatment lost to them.

    http://www.gponline.com/News/article/1163720/Scotland-raises-cervical-screening-age/#disqus_thread

    • I suspect the reason there are so many places for women to access real information is in large part due to you and other pioneers and your tireless efforts to inform and educate. I know I would not have started this site if I did not have access to blogcritics and support from all the amazing women who post there. And there might be some truth to what your husband said – but good luck with that, we have gotten too big to sweep under the rug that easily!

      Thank you for the link – it certainly brightened my day. My favorite piece of the article was this one:
      “Evidence considered by the NSC showed cervical cancers among women under 25 were extremely rare and most abnormalities clear up on their own. Screening this group would mean a high number would be unnecessarily referred for further investigation, leading to anxiety, the committee said.”

      How about that, they are admitting cervical cancer is EXTREMELY RARE among women under 25. However, they still don’t highlight the fact that it is extremely rare amongst ALL age groups. Cervical cancer does not suddenly or magically become rampant after age 25.

      I keep waiting for others to make their way here and am hoping they remember how to get here! I still am not able to access the site but get directed to a different site instead.

  5. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Sue, one of the major problems is the imprinting of women, they then pass on their fears and lecture their daughters and other young women.
    This is a thread I found disturbing…

    http://able2know.org/topic/166140-6

    I got this response,
    “@Eliz52,
    I think your single mindedness diatribe is dangerous. But continue to parrot your beliefs and have
    the preventable illnesses and deaths of the women you counsel on your shoulders. Hope it helps you sleep at night.”

    Some women are unreachable, but it’s worth the fight to help those with an open mind and the next generation of women. Hopefully, they won’t spend their lives in stirrups and having “treatments”.
    I marvel at your website…I use the computer a lot, but as far as setting up a website, sorting out graphics etc, well, it’s beyond me. It really is comforting to know some tech savvy women are also, informed women…and I love the snowfall feature.

    • Elizabeth I found it! It was in the spam section but buried in there where I didn’t see it. Anyway I rescued it – as always it’s a beauty. And thank you for the comments about being tech savvy and I’m glad you like the snow.

    • naomy says:

      I have to say who ever told you that is in the wrong. It should be the womens choice and not threatened with withholding BC I don’t see men having prostate or penile exams for contriceptives. First time i was made to go to a gyno i was 13 my mother forced me. the dr terrified me second time i went to a health clinic they did a pap and pelvic, they were so rough i bleed for two weeks after. This year i went again so people would quit pestering me about it. I went to a specialist for a pelvic i must say he was much easier on me than the others but it doesn’t change the fact it was uncomfortible. Now he’s made me an opointment to come back for a pelvic, without even asking if i wanted one. Im not a petri dish im a human being with feelings. Im only 22.

      • Alex says:

        Just so you know: it’s actually illegal for them to withhold birth control if you don’t get internal exams. I’ve said this easily 10 times, but any interface with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (specifically, it’s called an “iatrogenic attack”). There are numerous risks & inaccuracies, as well (a miscarriage that’s medically caused is also an attack). There are even blood tests & home testing things as an alternative if you are worried about a massively rare cancer. Blood & urine tests work for STDs (something you don’t often hear) & there are external ultrasound/sonar type of things for “shape” situations.

        That HOPE program at Planned Parenthood seems to give women birth control without issues (sometimes they try the same things, so be careful). Your right to bodily autonomy, integrity, and inviolability is not abrogated (cancelled) in a medical situation. If they say something is required, saying “you’re requistite is dissolved” or “your mandate is abrogated” might very well be helpful.

        The Boycotting thread has a bunch of information on getting these birth control pills without getting backed into anything (one woman even got them from her psychiatrist!). Don’t know how new you are to this site, but just to say: the doctor does not annex people with their decisions. It doesn’t matter what variation (coercion, deception, physical force, etc…)- it’s a situation of third party orchestration (sorry to be so crass, buti it’s just like an arranged marriage- it isn’t any different from the father “doing the honors” himself). They don’t come to their own conclusions of what they’re “going” to be doing.

        I’ll cap it off by saying that it’s your body, your rules- and a situation is what it consists of (just like if a doctor was to poison someone with a needle, it’s still murder).

  6. I like to practice resisting pressure from other people in all kinds of situations. Although people sometimes catch me with my guard down and I have to remind myself to be strong, I find the more I practice, the easier each new situation becomes.

    For instance, when someone offers me one of those discount cards at a store that would require me to give my address and phone number, I say, “No.” When a salesperson in a store asks me if I need help deciding what to buy, I say, “I’m okay. ‘just browsing.” When a “boss” at work tells me to do something that I find unethical, I say, “Umm…I may not be comfortable with that, ethically speaking.”

    I stopped flying once those TSA pat-downs started in the U.S. I flew once, back when they only required baggage to be searched and didn’t physically touch people, and that was annoying enough, but once the pat-downs became a possibility, I decided they’d gone too far. I refuse air travel. It’s a boycott. Let the airlines go bankrupt until they learn how to treat people with respect.

    I once tried to get a prescription for contact lenses fulfilled and found the person I was dealing with to be kind of rude. After a few minutes, I just interjected that I was no longer interested, asked for my prescription papers back, and walked out. I don’t care if it’s socially awkward.

    Social pressure is tough because there’s an unconscious element to want people to like you, and you feel the urge not to hurt people’s feelings either, but if you don’t stand up for yourself then people will be able to do whatever they want with/to you, and you won’t be in control of your own life. That’s why I think you should always be prepared to say “No.” and always be prepared to walk away from any situation that makes you uncomfortable.

    Personally, I don’t want a world full of submissive women. I want a world full of women who know how to say “No.”

  7. bobsforbuddha says:

    A horrible example of pelvic gone wrong exams made it into the news today with the headline:

    Dr. Chung gave patient unnecessary pelvic, rectal and breast exams, disciplinary hearing hears.

    Amongst the witness testimony – the physician would prescribe small quantities of birth control pills and require refill in 2 to 3 months time, and then be subjected to pelvic and breast exams.

    The full story (warning – the material is disturbing) is at: http://www.thestar.com/life/health_wellness/2013/04/10/dr_chung_gave_patient_unnecessary_pelvic_rectal_and_breast_exams_disciplinary_hearing_hears.html

    How was this doctor exposed for what he did? It appears that a witness (possibly a medical assistant) validated the patients’ complaints. What if there was no witness? Of course, the women who complained would have their complaints taken seriously (insert tones of sarcasm) because the system is designed to support them (again note the sarcasm). Unfortunately, the complaints process is stacked against women who complain, and complaints seldom seem to carry much weight unless they include a reputable witness, physical evidence (DNA from semen on the woman complainant in one case) or a tape/video-recording.

    Also – pretty sure many of the women victimised by the physician tried to say no, or questioned the need for the exams, but their conditioning (“trust me, I’m a doctor”), and the system (pap screen pressure, pelvic exam linked to pap screen propaganda and pressure made it very difficult for them to prevail. Even if they said no, unlikely that no would be accepted as “no”.

    All this = REALLY AGREE WITH THIS POST!
    Know your rights & be prepared to actively defend them.
    Have a witness/companion, a tape recorder, or any other support that you need to defend your rights. Informed dissent sometimes requires more than a polite “no”. At least it would have with Dr. Chung.

  8. Moo says:

    I got somewhat disturbed when my doctor kept trying to ambush me with demands of pap tests/gyn exams when I would visit with some ailment totally unrelated to my vagina or ovaries. It is getting to the point where I do not even want to get basic healthcare at all.

    I tried a solution similar to #3. He told me that if I did not get a pap test then he could “no longer be my doctor”. I said ok then send me a letter saying all that. He did not and when I returned again very sick he was smiling “oh you came back”. But he kept up the pressure.

    I am going to check with the doctor regulating authority where I live: if it is allowable for doctors to “fire” their patients for refusing elective cancer screening tests.

    The problem is that there could be a health situation that requires a gyn exam and pap test due to symptoms. The exam is really a problem. Anyone who is a survivor of childhood abuse especially sexual abuse may have huge problems with getting examined and even going to the dentist. Health professionals in these fields need to recognize what is going on and offer help to those patients that is reasonable. So now I am sending some information about how care providers can accommodate survivors to my doctor and hopefully he will follow it.

    • Alex says:

      They DO recognize, they just like it. It is iatrogenic sexual abuse through coercive actions. They do not get to attack someone whatever the methodology & any imposed interface with a sexual area is an attack (because it is a product of someone else’s decision-making, it doesn’t have to be facilitated by combat). They have no option of electing an antagonistic policy.

      The problem is that, at least up until now, doctors have been left room for response. It’s, basically, been a situation where they feel that they’re being questioned. A point worth adding is: that you’re always dealing with actions, never laws. It’s a matter of applied influence, not regulations or the doctor reporting themselves. I don’t understand why so many people want both to be available- it doesn’t really matter what they COULD do, it’s not their way to help people. It’s like the idea of wanting two mechanics in town: one that would actually fix your car (or make an honest, non-antagonistic effort) & another that would not fix your car & might just cut the brake lines.

    • ADM (Canada) says:

      A Doctor cannot fire a patient for refusing elective screening. Or for refusing any test or treatment. For example the Canadian Medical Association Code of Ethics states:

      19. Having accepted professional responsibility
      for a patient, continue to provide services until
      they are no longer required or wanted; until
      another suitable physician has assumed
      responsibility for the patient; or until the patient
      has been given reasonable notice that you intend
      to terminate the relationship.

      21. Provide your patients with the information
      they need to make informed decisions about their
      medical care, and answer their questions to the
      best of your ability.

      24. Respect the right of a competent patient to
      accept or reject any medical care recommended.

  9. Moo says:

    On doctor firing patients – I think he was hoping that I would seek to get registered with another doctor. There are good reasons for doctors to stop seeing patinents. The list is such as retiring, moving, conflict of interest, or patients who threaten them or their families – not for refusing Pap test or colonoscopy. But it is happening and patients do not know that.

    What bothers me is the anger he displaces when I refuse Pap test.

    I also heard about a patient who was asking about sperm donors. The doctor somehow thought that he was meant to be the donor instead of referring the patient to a sperm bank or how private donors could be used. Is it permissible for a doctor to use his own sperm on his patient? With or without their consent (saying sperm is anonymous donor but using his own sperm) .

    • Alex says:

      There’s numerous things wrong with doctors inseminating someone without their consent, period. Secretly using their own is pretty bad, too (anonymous doesn’t mean dishonest). Deception vitiates consent (means it impairs, impedes, counteracts- aany which way you want to phrase it). Like I said: you’re always dealing with action, never laws. There probably are laws against that, but sometimes the law contradicts itself- just like when something is legally permitted, but it goes against another law.

  10. Moo says:

    a whole different subject is artificial insemination and whose sperm is “allowed” to be used in a clinical setting. A married couple (Lesbians) wanted to get inseminated at a clinic and told that they could not use their own donor unless the patient was regularly having sex with that man. They had to use either purchased sperm(processed) from the USA (selling sperm is not allowed in Canada) or freeze a donor’s sperm for six months and doing testings for an array of diseases on it.

    Many women are doing artificial insemination at home on their own. As far as I am concerned I do not need any doctor telling me whose sperm I can get pregnant with. The government has no business in my bedroom or home or my uterus.

    Probably many women would not need artificial insemination if they were not so damaged by pap testing, colposcopies, LEEP procedures. The gyn industry would be happy to control all pregnancies are controlled from preconception onward.

  11. SolusUmbra says:

    I wish I would of known about this earlier today, I saw a doctor today who would not give me bc without dropping my pants for an exam. He said he wouldn’t even give me pain pills without the exam, since I use the bc for pain. I know once my medication runs out that I will more then likely end up in the hospital from all the pain that I’m going to end up in. But when I find my next doctor to go to I will be more prepared that is for sure!

    I had to go through a pelvic exam one, because of the pain, in order to get any help from the doctors and I was in SO MUCH pain that I allowed them. I hate my self every day for giving in like I did. And thanks to what I went through I have had night terrors/night mares even since that day, some nights are so bad that I have to sleep with a light on and a movie/tv playing.

    I wish I knew why in our day and age that they have no come up with a better way of examining women. I don’t see men getting figures pushed up their private part. I wish there was a petition to find a better way and or to do away with such exams! My life will never be the same again and to try to force me to go through another one just to not be in pain, I’ll pick the pain.

    • Alex says:

      It’s ILLEGAL for them to back you into these exams for birth control! Even saying “Are you saying you REFUSE to give me birth control if I don’t get these exams (imposed on me)?” can get them to back off. Throwing around the term “iatrogenic rape” is a good one, too. I’m sorry that happened to you & it is a foul thing for them to do.

      In the first place, any interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (it’s just called “iatrogenic attack” when it’s done by medical procedure). There are also numerous risks & inaccuracies (I believe those would be called “aggravating factors”), as well as alternatives if you are worried about something that is massively rare to begin with. They look to enforce impressions & “attach riders” to things quite frequently, but it’s your body & your rules. Your rights to bodily autonomy, integrity & inviolability don’t disappear in a medical setting.

      This is all discussed at length on this site (the Boycotting thread, the Psychological Harms thread, and the References & Education thread are all good places to start). Overall, a situation is what it consists of (if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder- for example). The properties of a situation don’t change because of designation.

      As far as alternatives go- I’d suggest you always presume there is one. There are blood & urine tests for STDs, external ultrasound/imagery things for “structures” (couldn’t think of a better word for that, but overall shapes), and you MIGHT be able to get by with cutting that Morning-After pill in half for whatever you use it for (I’ve heard that it’s basically two birth control pills combined). There is a book by Rosemary Gladstar that might be of use to you (Herbal Healing for Women). Try Google for whatever problems you have (add in “herbal remedies,” “natural cures,” “alternative treatments,” etc…). You’d be suprised what you can find if you type in whatever it is the way you’d say it.

  12. SolusUmbra says:

    Well I tried many of those things at the appointment and still walked out. One I was told that I would have to have an internal ultrasound…. That I could not have anything external. Second I asked about the blood work and he said it could only be done with the physical exam and never without it. The Morning after pill wouldn’t work for me since I am asexual and not active, never have been never will be. I was using bc for the horrible pain that I was in, and the pain pills didn’t help. I even asked about signing the waver that I had heard other doctors offer, but no go. He told me that if he didn’t do the exam that he could and should be sued for malpractice and lose his license.
    I know the first and only exam I had was to see if anything was physically wrong to be putting me in so much pain but I really do feel like it was rape. I wish I could go back and undo that horrible mistake but I can’t. But I will never let it happen again.

    • Alex says:

      The doctor’s full of shit! What’s his story? That he attacked you in self-defense? He’s liable for what he DOES & his license is less important than not causing you problems, anyway. As for the lawsuit, he deserves one (as well as “direct reciprocation”- one hears a lot about that in prison).

      Birth control can frequently be ordered online (sorry, I forgot about that last time) & one woman on here ordered hers from her psychiatrist (which makes sense, since it’s causing severe psychological distress). The Morning After pill is over-the-counter & it would work even if you’re not sexually active (if it would work, not sure about that). There’s some links on that somewhere on this site.

      It sounds like that was a burst cyst (I read an article just recently- I think the link is on the Discusson thread). The birth control pill seems to keep you from ovulating, so you wouldn’t get these cysts (which don’t mean cancer like doctors try to convince women it does, by-the-way). I’ll bet there are herbal remedies for that, but I’m honestly not too knowledgeable on the biological stuff. It seems like they just burst sometimes & it hurts a lot (like passing a kidney stone, it was compared to). Not necessarily something you need to worry about as a constant thing.

      I think it’s very respectable that you’d just go with the pain instead of going with all these medical things. A lot of women don’t put themselves first with this & it’s very common that someone thinks it’s the “wrong answer.” I just figured I’d commend you on that.

  13. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Soulas, welcome, if you were in serious pain the exam was probably to check for something more than menstrual cramps. Endometriosis can cause severe pain.
    If you’ve never been sexually active, pap testing should be avoided, it would be risk for no benefit. We now know very few women can benefit from pap testing, only the small number who test HPV+ and are aged 30 or older…and we’re talking about 5% of women. So most sexually active women will be HPV- and cannot benefit from pap testing.
    The “routine” pelvic exam is of poor clinical value and carries risk, it’s also, largely unhelpful in symptomatic women, especially in overweight women.
    An exam/test for symptoms…I’d want to be satisfied there is a good reason for the exam/test and consider alternatives.

    I wouldn’t beat yourself up, it can be hard to control what goes on in the consult room. I think it’s important to see doctors you know are competent, but also, respectful and ethical…any exam or test should only be carried out with your informed consent and on your terms. (choice of doctor etc.) I know that can be difficult in some countries and in some circumstances.
    Congratulations on walking out of the consult room, that doctor was out of line and I don’t agree with many of his assertions. A good doctor will work with you, provide alternatives etc.

    Do you think the pain is severe menstrual cramps? Did you get any answers from the earlier pelvic exam? You’ve had an exam, so what did he hope to achieve by doing another pelvic exam?
    If it was simply to tick a box before giving you BC, he was way out of line, so many doctors still use the Pill to coercion/pressure women into excess. The only clinical requirements are a blood pressure test and your medical history.

  14. SolusUmbra says:

    The last exam I had said everything was in the right place and didn’t feel anything that shouldn’t be there. This is another reason I will not go through with another one, since everything was fine. I think it was something more then just severe cramps seeing as how the pain became very extreme over time and nothing was helping, heat, pain pills, less red meat, more water, yoga…..

    His reason for me having another exam besides him saying it was malpractice was because he claimed the bc would change something over time. And I want to know how in the world an exam is going to check for osteoporosis the 4th major killer of all women, coming from him. I even told him I have had my bone density checked recently and I was fine, he told me that it doesn’t count.

    He also tried acting gay, with flamboyant arm jesters and head movements. He said he “loves all of my girls” and calls them all Susie. But what did he do when I was sitting here almost vomiting from crying… nothing. He said he would always be there for me, if I changed my mind about the exam. He even described bc as “down girl down”

    And when I asked him what is going to happen when I go off the bc he said “anything is possible”. Oh yea real helpful. Done anyone else fine it creepy that men are allowed into this profession?

  15. SolusUmbra says:

    By the way he didn’t even ask me how my exam went.

  16. SolusUmbra says:

    I had one done a few years before, I lost my old doctor and was trying to find a new one.

    • Alex says:

      Oh, so this one was the new one? Well, whichever one he is, all that is REAL creepy & a lot of that sounds like bad signs. Actually, a lot of serial killers get attracted to the medical profession because of a perceived control of life & death- something to think about.

      He “loves” all “his girls?” Can we say “pretend relationship” & “possessive tendancies?” He calls them all “Susie” might be like calling them all “girlie” or “philly” or “bitch.” It might also be some weird renaming someone type of thing (depersonalizing or overhauling the situation as a whole) or maybe it’s the name of some girl he liked at some point (or his mother, or whoever). Calling birth control “down girl down” sounds a bit weird, too- especially given everything else (it sounds very disapproving & like he’s actually trying to call girls dogs in a subtle kind of way). “He’d be there for you,” implies helping, not attacking- which is what forcing a situation of this nature on you is. Acting gay is probably just that & maybe he’s bi, but also aggressive.

      The whole thing sounds like he’s trying to act all cute & innocent to get you to feel guilty about thinking anything hostile about him. Like you’re attacking the poor thing that didn’t have it coming. Foul tactic, but it gets used a lot (it seems particularly with women). Using humor that way is another one. So is acting like they’re trying to protect themselves (like you’re the bad person that’s hobbling their self-defense- which isn’t innocent for everyone).

  17. Ashley says:

    I was told by my doctor that he wouldn’t sign the physician sign off sheet for me to get health insurance if I didn’t get a pelvic exam and papsmear. Can they do that, he also said that it was required for women 25+ to get insurance. I am on a time limit to get my sign off sheet in. I dont want to be fined or jailed over this obamacare shit that is going on now for those who don’t have it.

    • Ashley says:

      I mean, it feels like I’m being blackmailed….

      • Ashley, it feels like you are being blackmailed because you are. It looks as if some doctors are going to use this as yet another means to coerce women into unwanted paps in the same they use the pill and other health care. Pap tests are optional screening tests for a rare cancer, and inaccurate to boot. If you don’t want a pap test you don’t have to have one. If women don’t stand up to this the doctors will keep trying to get away with it. A call to a lawyer, or opting out is an option for now. It is not true that women 25+ are required to get insurance – it was made very clear that no one was being forced to get health insurance: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/1001/Obamacare-101-What-to-know-if-you-opt-out-of-buying-health-insurance

    • Lynne says:

      Can you share what was required on that sign up sheet?

    • Alex says:

      And if they keep you any shit, bring up that this situation being imposed is iatrogenic sexual abuse! Any interface with a sexual area as product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (it’s just called an “iatrogenic” one when it’s done medically). There’s also massive risk & inaccuracy (you can wind up getting miscarriages from injuries- not somethng that’s always common knowledge). A situation is what it consists of (ex: if a doctor were to poison someone with a needle, it’s still murder) & the properties of a situation don’t change because of designation.

      Don’t ever ask if they “can do that” with anything- it’s your body, your rules. I don’t mean to come off nasty, just making a point. The language can be an issue. What I mean is: Them saying “This is mandatory” can be responded to with “Your mandate has been abrogated (or cancelled, annulled, dissolved, whatever).” Them saying that something is their policy is another one. They don’t have an antagonistic policy. They don’t attack the patient, iatrogenically or other wise.

      Sometimes it’s hard to form a response because of the way things are phrased & not being able to find an apt word for the situation. “Iatrogenic detriment” is an example, but so is something being “antagonistic to your alignment” (that just means that it’s “against the grain”). “Self-electively probing” you is a problem, but it can be hard to articulate that it’s something of that nature being done on someone else’s volition. “Sexual distress” isn’t something you commonly hear, but it’s something being a problem on that level.

      Sorry this was so long, but I just wanted to provide ammo & would be happy to provide more if you find it useful. It DOES seem like things are getting progressively more dictatorial with obamacare (look up “forced home inspections”- I posted more about that in References & Education) & doctors will probably try to “enforce an impression” as far as saying something’s a law, you won’t be able to get insurance, they can’t prescribe anything now without doing exams, etc… .

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Ashley,
      I’m not American, I know your medical/insurance system is very different. I just changed my private health insurer, I simply filled out a form, they asked me my age, if I smoked and whether I had any pre-existing medical conditions. Also, any surgeries/procedures over the last 5 years and have I ever had cancer, a stroke or heart attack…and that was it. No medical exams and no questions about cancer screening and certainly, no demands for screening.
      I note this is for employer-funded medical insurance, but you still have legal rights.
      This reminds me of a post on the Ob-Gyn.com site where a young woman was coerced into invasive exams before the male doctor would give her a medical clearance for a new job. She later spoke to her employee (the woman handling the program) who was horrified and confirmed the invasive exams were unnecessary. The company made a complaint and used another doctor in the future. The doctors on that site suggested a written complaint be made to the Medical Licensing Board.

      This sounds like a try-on to me, I’d be speaking to someone at my employer’s office and to the insurance company. I’d make clear to the doctor that you’re making enquiries, perhaps, even mention the relevant Medical Association. (that might worry him)
      Doctors don’t expect us to fight back. These problems often melt away when we challenge the doctor/system.

      You have a right to decide IF you want to have screening tests/exams and if you do, who carries out the test/exam. (some women feel more comfortable with a female doctor/nurse) The routine pelvic exam cannot be justified, it’s easy to find references, even ACOG struggle to justify it. It’s about medical profits, not healthcare, it’s harmful.
      Pap tests are not recommended before age 25 and there are lots of articles and references to back that up, testing before that age carries high risk…of course, it goes further than that, no country has shown a benefit testing women under 30 and now we know it’s only the roughly 5% who are HPV+ and aged 30 or more that have a small chance of benefiting from a 5 yearly pap test.

      Is the doctor and insurance company prepared to cover/compensate you if you end up with a false positive and over-treated? The risk is high for those under 25, 1 in 3 will get a false positive and may end up having an excess biopsy or being over-treated. 9that can mean damage to the cervix and lead to premature babies, miscarriages, infertility etc.)
      I’d fight this…your health and well-being are at stake.
      If I were American I suspect my entire life would be spent avoiding doctors or fighting the system, it’s the only way to protect your body, health, peace of mind and life.

    • BethK says:

      You are being lied to.

      There are NO health exams required to get insurance under the ACA or “Obamacare”. None. They cannot decline you or charge you more for any pre-existing condition, so what would be the point? You are free to accept or decline any sort of healthcare.

      • Alex says:

        That might be true, but that doesn’t mean doctors won’t try to run scams.

        Look at birth control: It’s illegal for them to back women into those exams to get these pills, yet that doesn’t tend to stop them from saying “you don’t get this without that.” Not that it makes any difference, since it’s coercive iatrogenic assault & reproductive endangerment (whether that is deemed illegal or not).

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Alex, the try-on works well for them, but it’s interesting when women refuse and get up to leave, they get their pills VERY quickly, the “requirements” fall away. (it might be different in the States where the “standard of care” apparently means doctors can make anything a requirement)
        It’s surprising that more women don’t challenge doctors, but then it is an intimidating environment and we’ve been told we MUST test, no wonder women feel backed into a corner. The AMA here still link the Pill with pap tests, whenever there is talk of taking the Pill off script they go on about women missing out on pap tests, “women on the Pill need pap tests” and the extraordinary statement, “I doubt many doctors would prescribe the Pill without a current pap test on file”…both statements made by male doctors speaking for the AMA. That is a big part of the problem, doctors who want to use the Pill to control women and mislead, pressure or coerce them into elective screening. I don’t hear these doctors saying that men on Viagra NEED a prostate check though…I think there are some outdated and unhealthy attitudes high up in the AMA, a few dinosaurs lurking.
        Naturally, no one challenges these remarks.

      • Moo says:

        Where I live we have public health insurance. I do not actually know what a doctor is billing for when I have a consult. I might make it a point to phone the ministry and ask if I can know what codes are billed. I might suggest my doctor is doing fraud. For one he is often putting through tests that I never consented to. Last time I had a urine test I did not see the lab form because I left the sample in his office. He also did some mystery swab in my mouth. So from now on ask questions. I make copies of the test requistions and take the sample to the lab myself. I do not want to use the dirty washrooms at his office or the lab. I am also looking into buying urine test strips online.

        I also did not know that I can ask to see my computerized health records at the doctors office. I am very upset about the move for paper files because I could just ask to see them at the reception desk. A fee of $30 minimum is for copies of the records which I think is ridiculous when they are electronic. Of course if I have my lawyer request then the doctor has to give them. I cannot afford a lawyer.

        Many women were shocked and upset to find that their doctor had been insisting of yearly Pap tests and did swabs and blood tests for STDs when they were married for years or maybe never even having sex. They were never told. This also is wasteful for the health system. Back when people thought that all cancer was hereditary.

        If people do not know I am rather anti medical.

  18. Ashley says:

    From what this says, you have to have insurance or you get fined, which is what I don’t want. The doctor told me that all women 25 and older had to have a papsmear done. And he wouldn’t sign off on my insurance unless I would get one. Hence the fee. It feels to me like I am being forced to get insurance, because if you don’t you get fined. It is like telling us all get insurance or else (Fined). Not very constitutional if you ask me.

    But that is off topic. I want insurance, and am worried that if I dont get my sign off sheet in on time I will not be able to get it. I get insurance through my job because it is cheaper and I have a limited time to get my form turned in. I am going to the doctor tomorrow and asking for it back. I just hope that I will be able to find another doctor in time for things to work out.

    • Ro says:

      I am unsure about your financial situation, but I know that it’s possible to pay for private insurance which does NOT require you to participate in anything you don’t want to participate in. It may be a bit more pricey, but that might be something worth looking into. Another thing, as For Women’s Eyes Only mentioned, you could always get a lawyer involved or outright refuse. It may be illegal to go without insurance, but it’s also illegal for a doctor to perform any medical practice without complete consent (although their coercion and angry attitudes would certainly lean towards the opposite). Furthermore, if there is reluctance/complete unwillingness to participate in an exam/screening procedure, it is not legal for any medical practitioner to withhold medication or unrelated care to screening procedures a patient has opted out of. I discussed this with a friend of mine who used to work in the medical field before leaving. Regardless of any coercion, they do not have legal rights to withhold medical care which as far as I know, would most definitely include insurance. If I were you, I would look into private insurance, contacting a lawyer, or threaten to go find another doctor. I wish you the best of luck in everything.

      • It is not “illegal” to opt out of buying insurance. For those who choose to opt out there is a penalty sum that amounts to around 95 dollars per person for the first year, but then it increases in subsequent years.

        “How much are the penalties for not buying a health plan?

        The penalties are not very high to begin with. In 2014, the fine to remain uninsured is $95 per person (up to a family maximum of $285, or 1 percent of family income, whichever is greater).

        But the penalty will increase more than sevenfold in the next two years, with the fine running as much as $695 per person by 2016. The family maximum would be as high as $2,085 (or 2.5 percent of family income, whichever is greater).” http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/2013/1001/Obamacare-101-What-to-know-if-you-opt-out-of-buying-health-insurance

    • Lynne says:

      Ashley is this a new type insurance policy that your employer is introducing? Is it the same insurance that you had in the past from this employer?

      If your employer changed insurance carriers or the type of policy that is offered to you, it is possible that it is a policy that requires a physical exam that includes a pap and pelvic. Then again, this doctor might be using this tactic for his own benefit. The best way to make sure is to inquire about the insurance with the carrier yourself. Ask your Human Resources department about the helath insurance carrier and the policy being offered.

      If you find that you would like to “shop around” and don’t want to use the exchanges subsidized by the government, you can always get an insurance agent to shop for you.

      I mentioned in one of my posts that my husband and I had to do that when he was between jobs. I thought that it was around 15 years ago and my hubby informed me it has been 22 years (where does time go). What we did at that time was that we contacted the agent that sold us our car insurance policies and our home owner’s insurance. He was able to get us in contact with a kind of insurance broker. We told him what we were looking for and he found several carriers with policies that suited our needs. Don’t be shy about telling an agent that you want a policy with a minimal health exam. Minimal would be a blood and urine test (which screens for everything under the sun – no need for poking and probing), height and weight and a blood pressure check.

      Good Luck and please let us know what happens. My thoughts are with you!

    • Alex says:

      What Ro just posted pretty much says it all, but I just wanted to add in that the variation of imposition is irrelevant. Don’t get confused with all the complexities- the insurance company corralling you into something is still an instance of compulsion.

      There are all kinds of twists & turns and dots that get connected, but it still works as someone else launching this situation in your direction. This is outside comportment of a penetrative situation, which is a problem on it’s own. Additionally, it puts someone at risk for all the ramifications that come from it’s overall dangerousness & unreliability. The subtlety of the methodology is unimportant.

  19. Ro says:

    FWEO – I’m not trying to start an argument, but if you have to pay a penalty for something, then it isn’t legal. It’s the same concept as getting a ticket for speeding or such which is illegal. While it may not directly say that going without insurance is illegal, the fact that you have to pay a penalty if uninsured certainly implies that it is considered illegal. So you’re right in that it may not directly be illegal, but you have to either follow their rules or pay a penalty.

    • Ro, to call opting out “illegal” gives the impression you could land up in prison. It isn’t illegal to opt out of insurance if you choose to pay the penalty. If you kept refusing to pay the penalty and got caught or called up for it, and continued to refuse to pay, then you probably could end up in prison. I hope I’m not wrong in thinking people have the option to opt out of insurance.

  20. Ro says:

    FWEO – No, you aren’t wrong in thinking that! The issue, though, comes down to people being forced to pay a fine or possibly end up in prison after a prolonged period of not paying said fines. I usually don’t discuss my political views, but I’m very liberal and the reason being that I think people deserve freedom to make decisions in regards to how they want to live their lives. Whether that be religious freedoms, marital freedoms, or bodily autonomy. That being said, because of my beliefs, I personally feel as though forcing someone to choose between having insurance or paying a penalty is unjust. For example, what about families who have very little income, do not want to participate in these new insurance plans, and don’t have enough to spare for the fines? That’s where, as far as I’m concerned, it DOES turn into a case of what’s legal vs. illegal. So directly, opting out in and of itself is not illegal, but it can certainly lead to a place of injustice in my opinion. Furthermore, those who do have enough to pay the penalty but don’t want to participate shouldn’t HAVE to pay a penalty. That’s really what it comes down to, in my opinion, is the freedom to make choices. If you see it differently, then we can just agree to disagree. I just personally feel it’s wrong to make people feel as though they must participate in something or pay a penalty.

    • Alex says:

      I wanted to ask some things, since a few things confuse me: First, what do you women first think when you hear things like this? I mean third-party orchestrations of things pertaining to your body (specifically the penetration of it). I’d think it’d be pretty scary & fury-inducing.

      I’d think an added point that the women that are supposed to be supportive & are always going on about not getting smacked around for not making dinner on time & not being allowed to vote are not only allowing these things to persist, but are vigorously supporting it & acting like the doctor’s wrangler. Besides a sense of betrayal & aloneness, I’d think the general opinion of these women would drop sharply.

      Another one is: How does this not come up in discussion? I’d think it would get dissolved fairly quickly if someone’s trying make the point that the properties of a situation are pretty much dissolved when they are designated differently. That’s insane! It’s like saying “what happens isn’t what occurs.” Any article in the paper, any story on the news, any historical information or severe story from someone’s life (televised or not)- it’s always assessed by it’s PROPERTIES. Someone decides to “play doctor” with their own daughter, that’s grasped as a problem. Nobody says “Well, the guy that did that is a priest, so everything’s fine.” If a woman runs another woman over with her car, that’s an attack- nobody says it’s not just because a woman did it.

      Something else: When someone’s watching that scene in Braveheart (when that Englishman came & snatched up that guy’s wife)- what’s the first thing that comes to mind? That this is a forced situation & is a more subtle variation of attack, right? This same theme comes to mind with arranged marriages, too (it’s not really different than the father doing all these things himself, now is it?). What about real-life situations?

      One more thing is the concept of counteraction. In that scene in the movie: The thought was that they should all just close in on them & kill them all, right? When they DO go & liberate the town, isn’t there the thought of “Why not do that earlier?” That would’ve blocked-off a lot of problems- which I’d think would be a concern in real life.

  21. Moo says:

    Just don’t flat out refuse a pap. There is a difference between a patient who is overdue for a pap and one who is noncompliant. You say you are menstruating or you just douched, went swimming, yeast infection and you will make an appointment to come back. It is just the wrong time to do a pelvic exam. Then tell the receptionist that you will call back later when you can get a babysitter, time off work ,a ride or whatever excuse, then do not make an appointment.

    If you are getting a pelvic exam anyway it might be more difficult to refuse a pap. You really do not have to see a doctor to cure yeast or bacterial infection. If you need birth control then learn to use a natural method. See women against stirrups site for cure info.

    Some people resort to sabotaging tests which you may feel is immoral or just stupid especially if you have to pay for them. The sabotage for pap is putting some natural oil such as coconut oil in your vagina before the test. It ruins the smear and it will come back unsatisfactory for evaluation. You will be asked to repeat in three to four months however. The sabotage for FOBT is taking just a few more vitamin C than usual. Some people even put a vitamin C solution on the card to make sure the colour change is negative. I do not know the sabotage for the mammogram. I heard about magnets but using some antiperspirant and fogetting about it until you get there might do it. You would have to reschedule and somehow forget to do it.

    After a while the staff are not going to want to bother with you but you are not arguing with them. However if you are really sick you still might get healthcare instead. If you are going for some trivial health concern then you are going to get ambushed for Pap test. Learn some natural cures or find a naturopath that will not always try to force paps on you. Conventional medicine is really only good for acute infections and injuries like broken bones.

  22. Lynne says:

    This penalty thing with insurance really irks me and here is just one reason.

    Technically, there is no way to “opt out” gracefully. You either buy insurance or you don’t. The proponents of Obamacare sold this to people by carefully wording a lot of the “fine print” if you will.

    For example, you don’t buy insurance. You then have to pay the penalty, and all of the information whether you have insurance or not has to be provided on your tax return. The penalty is actually a tax. What happens if you don’t pay your taxes? You can go to prison.

    Even on the Obamacare fact website it states that every year this penalty will increase. For a lot of us the rates on our health insurance has gone up (ours has, but we can handle it). It’s hurting a lot of people financially.

    People like Ashley are then cornered into an awkward position and have very few options. Now add doctors that can use these recommendations as a weapon.

    I think its a nightmare.

  23. Kai says:

    What the hell is the picture of? ._.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      Kai, that charming device in the photo is the speculum they use to force your vagina open whenever they want to look/poke/take samples.

    • Alex says:

      That’s exactly what it originated as, actually! Also, the guy that founded this profession (J. Marion Sims) did quite a bit of torturing himself.

      History Lesson: If you look at the history of allopathic medicine, it’s always been like that. Comparing empirics & allopaths is a little like comparing good & evil. The empirics would give people things to strengthen & support their systems so someone wouldn’t get problems, then give them things that would bolster their body’s own abilities to handle problems if they did occur, then small doses of more severe things if that wouldn’t work (drinking something to kill parasites, a skin wash for athlete’s foot that you probably wouldn’t use as a general soap, etc…).

      The allopaths, on the other hand, would bleed people, give them massive doses of toxic chemicals like mercury (which is actually part of why Ivan the Terrible was so nuts- they gave him mercury/quicksilver for his back pain), and do surgery (ever see the beginning of Dances with Wolves or The Patriot?). People were rightfully terrified to go to them & actually used to say “with allopaths, you die of the cure.” There’s a lot of general antagonism, but there’s also a heavy trend of ‘reality is what I say it is” (thinking by adjucation, to coin a phrase). Torture under a different designation, attacking someone as if it’s assistance, giving someone something that won’t work as if it’s medicine- all that has a pretty serious “overturning” theme. It’s a theory of mine that aiming various hostile behavior at women is tied to that- attacking life (which, even though males have their part, the female’s is considerably more involved & it involves certain areas that medical personnel are known to home-in on).

      A lot of the different procedures DO sound like something a serial killer would think up & it’s entirely possible that one did. Serial killers actually gravitate more heavily to the medical professions because of a perceived control of life & death. Add in a legally permissive environment & high income for doing things like this & you have a serious problem.

    • Barbara says:

      Kai, it is not only legal in the modern medical systems, women also are treated like half-wits if they refuse to subject to an examination/test that uses this device, even if the research proves that such examination/test has no scientific grounds, nor can be beneficial for their heath.

      Vaginal speculum, indeed, evolved from a medieval torture device like this. So did the medical profession…. For example, did you know that in middle ages executioners often were executioners by day and doctors by night? Sounds gruesome, but, in fact, they were the only people who were thought to have at least some remote knowledge of human anatomy and physiology, because they were the only people who were allowed to cut human body open without being punished by the church.

      Anyway, it is always worth looking at the true facts, analysing and making your own conclusions.

  24. Moo says:

    One way to refuse Pap test I am going to do

    “I don’t get Pap tests at this clinic”. Calmly. “I go to Florida (out of country, state whatever) every year and get them done there. “. If you are asked for the records, doctor’s name, clinic etc just conveniently “forget” . I prefer lying just easier. Keep in mind that they often have incentive payments to screen at certain population rates, they will keep asking. Just calmly lie and do not argue why you think paps are unneccessary or harmful to you psychologically or you think your doctor is a pervert. F I tell the truth my doctor would hate me because I really think he is a pervert and a pharma whore.

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