The World Health Organization (WHO), American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), and other health leaders have advised doctors that a pelvic exam/pap test is not medically indicated for women wanting birth control pills. In fact, women taking birth control pills can be at increased risk of a false positive pap test result due to altered hormone levels http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/mediaroom/releases/pages/birth-control-use-linked-to-abnormal-pap-test-result.aspx However, regardless of new research and recommendations, some doctors are continuing to withhold prescriptions until women first submit to a pap test/pelvic exam. In addition, some doctors are now linking sexually transmitted disease testing together with birth control prescriptions.
As a result, women have begun to find their own way around unwanted and unnecessary exams. Women who do not wish to submit to a pelvic exam/pap test/STD testing before being granted prescriptions are beginning to boycott doctors and unwanted exams by buying birth control pills online – no prescription required.
Here is what women are saying about buying birth control online:
- Jan 29, 2013 at 6:17 am
- Haley, type in www medsmex dot com They have 13 different kinds of birth control pills; I used to order from them; they are fine. Look in the M section; there is one available for $5.88 per month. I’ll be ordering from them again if I get a decent tax refund check.
- Also, on Google, type in India pharmacy ethinyl estradiol * that is the chemical name for birth control pills. I have also spent countless hours searching online and would print the entire list of websites I have come up with, but always get my posts deleted when I do. I used to religiously order from a Thai place, but they shut down their website last March * I have five years’ worth stockpiled but need 130+ packs to last me through Menopause so I keep buying them every single time money permits. (Torrance * Connecticut) http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-189/#comments
-
Feb 01, 2013 at 7:36 am
-
I just received my package from New Zealand and professionally tucked inside were the 18 packs of birth control pills I’d ordered. I am euphoric; I don’t think it took 7-10 days to receive the package. I am elated. They were expensive, but as long as I have a way to stockpile them, I will continue to do so. (Torrance * Connecticut) http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-190/#comments
- Feb 05, 2013 at 10:04 am
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This is for Haley and anybody else trying to buy birth control pills online. Look under A for Alesse * very cheap ones at www dot christianrx dot com. (Torrance * Connecticut) http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-190/#comments
- Feb 10, 2013 at 5:05 pm
- buy-pharma.com sells several birth control, reasonably priced (I think), they ship worldwide, and although the site says, “Prescription is required for prescription medicines.” I have ordered and received good quality prescription medicine without a prescription from them. I received it in 1-2 weeks (In States). You can get other meds there too. It’s worth trying if you don’t want to get another invasive exam!!! (Dee) http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-192/#comments
Thank you to Torrance from Blogcritics, and to Dee.
For additional birth control pharmacy websites kindly provided by Torrance click here: February 18, 2013 at 4:04 pm
References:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/11/22/us-birth-control-idUSTRE6AL67X20101122
I dont use birth control but as a woman i am blown away that doctors think they have a right to use bc to force pap test on woman. and refuse the pill to those who do not wish to have tools and hands inside there bodys. doctors have been trained to see these exams as not sexuall. so they dont see it as rape when a woman feels forcet to have a genetal exam. i have read that some doctors do back down when the woman brings a lawyer in the mix sadly most do not know there rights. and some one needs to be regulating doctors. a law to protect womans rights.
I agree there should be a law to protect women’s rights. If a woman is coerced/forced to undergo digital and object penetration in order to obtain medications or treatment for illness there is something wrong with the system. Many women find the invasiveness and sexual nature of the exam traumatic, and a forced exam also exposes her to risk of abuse – all in the name of health care of course. Cervical cancer is rare, a pap test is unreliable as a testing method. Women have the right to say no but that right is stripped away when all drs are on board regarding required exams in exchange for prescriptions and other health care. Drs dance around the issue of consent by stating the woman is free to go elsewhere to get her prescriptions when she refuses vaginal exams, but if all drs are on board with the requirement then where is the woman supposed to go. Women who require prescriptions (esp. birth control) or other health care (esp. when pregnant) are most vulnerable to the coercion. It is very interesting that drs will back down if there is a lawyer brought into the mix.
Reblogged this on The ObamaCrat.Com™ and commented:
I have found a blog, or rather I should say Ms. Sue found me, that promotes good safe medical health information for women. Meet Ms. Sue from the blog: “forwomenseyesonly”.
Mr. Jueseppi B., it has been easy for me to find my way to your site because your wonderful works are often reblogged by bloggers I follow, and I am so delighted to get a return visit from you. And you certainly know how to do a visit, bestowing upon me all those fun and fantastic things I enjoy so much! Thank you!!
Here are more places to purchase birth control pills; thank you, Sue, for posting resources for women. I will continue to find more places to obtain birth control pills, online. Sorry if some are duplicates! Please note my notations, although I’m not trying to be funny.
Cheap!
http://www.buy-pharma.com/shopping_carts/show/
http://www.canadapharmacyonline.com
http://newpharmacysale.com/products/women_s_health/alesse/order/?cid=o
http://www.medsmex.com/store/home.php?cat=39
http://staticgenericstore.com/buy_desogen_en-us.html
Order Alesse:
http://rxpro-24×7.com/product/?product=alesse
http://internationalpharm.net/generic-online/without-prescription/alesse.html
http://store.drugstore24h.com/buy-desogen-usa.html
http://genericdesogestrelethinylestradiolonline.webs.com/order-generic-desogestrel-ethinyl-estradiol-india-best-price.html
http://www.genericdrugstock.com/order-levlen-online-en.html
http://zinilien.webs.com/mircette.html
http://trustpills.com/cart.php?add=9054
http://www.pharmaplax.com/medications/buy-levlen-online.html
Cheap:
http://webchemist24.net/products/women_s_health/alesse/order/
http://www.indianpharmaonline.com/order_birth_control_en-us.html
http://www.indianpharma.info/products/women_s_health/
http://worldbestonlinepharmacy.com/order_birth_control_en-us.html
Good one in Europe: I ordered 01/22/13; excellent service; just arrived:
http://www.inhousepharmacy-europe.com/c-15-Contraceptives.aspx
Expensive:
http://www.emedoutlet.com/health-wellness/Mircette/405.html
Fantastic:
http://www.magicpharma.com/index.php?cPath=36&osCsid=c220f12ce567687642beb97c923fa58d#bkm2
http://www.1strxorders.com/ortho-tri-cyclen-generic.php
http://online-generic24.com/v2/medicine-products-birth-control-en.html
http://www.indiamedsdirect.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_82
Look for contraceptives on there
http://www.onemedstore.com/prescriptions/levlen/
http://www.euroclinix.net/cerazette.html
http://www.aurapharm.com
Too expensive:
http://www.iwantmeds.com/birth-control-drugs/mircette/
Too expensive:
http://www.generictab.com/prices_new.php?cat=36&sub=1212
Good one:
http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/Womens-p-1-c-5.html
Really good website:
http://www.12buys.com/category.asp?Pcat=0010
Expensive but at least an alternative:
http://www.edfriends.org/levlen_generic.html
http://www.premier-health.biz/buy-contraceptives.htm
http://www.medstoreinternational.com/buy-Ortho-Tri-Cyclen-Lo.php
http://official-drugstore.com/item/women_s_health/alesse.html
http://www.privatemeds.co.uk/?awc=2328_1292506270_7dda52e5ff173b433b40dcb762487402
Torrance, this was a lot of work for you, thank you for sharing this.
I have gotten an enormous laugh and an equally huge amount of satisfaction over you posting this list. To me, this is a horrible situation which has come full circle after more than three decades of perverted doctors demanding I have gynecological exams starting when I was only eleven years old. I refused and thankfully keep researching new places to obtain birth control pills * soon I will be able to afford to stockpile the remaining birth control pills I need to last me through Menopause, no thanks to the doctors who withheld them for NO reason whatsoever. If even one woman benefits from this list, I will feel immeasurably honored someone was also able to obtain what she needed without the Byzantine hassles of being forced into painful and worse, unnecessary examinations. I will NEVER forget asking the doctor who I DATED when HE refused to prescribe them for me back in 1988: I recall EXACTLY where I was standing! I said: “Just what exactly are you looking for, that when you find it, you will then prescribe birth control pills for me?!” He shrugged and said that all women submit for those exams; it’s “just how it’s done”. I said: “Not THIS woman!” And I broke up with him, too. Thanks for your great website. You’re helping countless women get a handle on a situation that probably the majority of us have always felt and instinctively KNOWN was WRONG.
It is sad that women have to find alternative ways to get birth control pills. But it is great that the online community can offer site suggestions that they have found to offer quality products. I just fear for those who randomly pick med sites that may be selling ineffective or dangerous products.
Yet another reason getting information out about this topic is important.
Katie, I have been period-free for over twelve years so the birth control pills I’ve purchased are real, not fakes. I’d bled NONSTOP for over 20 years, so to never have bled since September of 2000, since I FINALLY obtained birth control pills online, proves I have bought legitimate medications ever since. The relief has been indescribable. Helped my ongoing, lifelong, horrific headaches to subside by 80%, too. I cannot tell you how long I suffered in horrendous pain, both via headaches and monthly period nonsense, when a simple birth control pill could have cured the bulk of my ailments. How very cruel and sadistic that for all the doctors my mother dragged me to, each and every week, not a single quack would prescribe something to give me relief. I am furious to this day for suffering for over 22 years until I took matters into my own hands and finally cured MYSELF.
You might wish to take off the link to http://www.4x.com * I just did a live chat and they demand a prescription which, obvious, I will never agree to. Sorry to give you a bad link.
Okay Torrance, I deleted the link you requested. That is dreadful you almost had to undergo an exam when you were only eleven! All women (and children) have the right to informed consent, and no doctor has the right to withhold it. The excuse of doctor knows best is not valid, especially in light of the evidence regarding screening for cervical cancer. Cervical cancer is rare, the pap test is unreliable, and many women are being harmed by further testing. Women have the right to say no, and it is paternalistic and unethical to withhold that right.
Katie, you have voiced a valid concern. I also had some worries about buying medications online. However, I have read that online sites know they would quickly go out of business if they were to start selling ‘bad’ medications. I would trust medications from sites that others had tested, such as those tested by Torrance listed above. It is also a good idea to do some research before buying from untested and unknown sites, such as these safety tip sites suggest:
http://onlinepharmacyforum.com/online-pharmacies-safety_foreign-online-pharmacies-to-buy-or-not-to-buy_58.html
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/tips-for-finding-reliable-and-trustworthy-online-pharmacies.8113/
I think this type of forum that offers information, ideas, and alternatives for people searching for answers and looking to share their stories and what has helped them is one of the best things the Internet has to offer.
As the world of healthcare changes and more people become increasingly proactive about taking their health into their own hands, it will become even more essential that there are sites where we can share our own journies and help others with their quests.
We can hope that parents start researching for their children when a problem arises. And that all doctors will open their minds and ears.
You captured the essence of the movement here, there really have been changes in healthcare. People are much less likely to place blind trust in their drs than they were in the past, and yes people are more likely now to search for information and attempt to manage health issues on their own. I agree that forums have become a valuable source of information, especially ones that offer opportunity to share lived experiences. I place a great deal of trust in data I gather from reading about people’s experiences. Thank you Katie.
most of woman health is not evadence based. I have heard of woman who when threten to get a lawyer the doctor got scared and gave them the pills with out an exam. one woman said that her lawyer said that she wished more woman knew there rights. its unethical and can not hold up in court. i think its time woman start protesting.
Sue, thanks for adding to my list. I’ve never seen so many topics for women to find REAL answers to in one place. You’ve done a great job and are helping many women finally know the truth.
Thank you Torrance! I was happy to see your comment
Anonymous, I agree women should start protesting – meeting force with force. There is evidence available on the harms being done to women, but it is being buried and ignored in many cases. At least in Canada now the task force is recommending screening should not begin until women are 25. Might not see that in the U.S. anytime soon though. And I agree much of what they claim regarding women’s health is not based on evidence.
Sue * I tried to order from that http://www.christianrx.com website only to find, when I’d tried to check out, that they demand a doctor’s prescription for birth control pills, so you may wish to cross them off the list. The entire purpose of buying birth control pills online is to BYPASS doctors and their perverted requirements. These pills are NOT harmful in the sense that one could overdose on them. I find it continuously sad to hear and read about women doling out their pills and skipping a day, here and there, in order to stretch their prescriptions because they dread seeing their doctors and being forced into more exams for a new, yearly prescription.
Torrance thank you for the update, I’ve deleted it from the list.
Torrance, Graeme from Blogcritics…his wife wants to buy some birth control pills online, what would be the best site for someone who lives in New Zealand?
Thanks…
I’m going on 23, my family and I rarely ever visit the doctors office, unless something is clearly wrong. I’ve never undergone one of these vaginal exams, and I don’t plan to ever do so unless it is necessary. I think women should have the option of having these tests done, it should be made clear that no one is going to force it on us, and it’s our choice(or rather, it should be). I’ve read comments on here of girl’s experiences, and it sounds violating…someone has a cyst removed from their back, and needs a pelvic exam?! This society is corrupt, and the medical field is a money-making business, like everything else.
The damage that’s been done and is being done in the name of “healthcare” is shocking, it also, destroys our quality of life – women “managing” health problems because they fear seeing a doctor and the inevitable, “when was your last pap test/pelvic exam?”…or they’re forced to buy birth control over the internet or drive down to Mexico.
These medical barriers cause enormous harm and treat women as lesser human beings, as mere bodies to be manipulated and used by the medical profession.
The forums are full of women traumatized and damaged by these exams/testing…so many posts from teenagers and young women terrified of “their first pelvic exam” and sadly, some mothers make it their responsibility to get their daughter to her first pelvic exam.
That exam is getting earlier and earlier…after pap testing recommendations were scaled back, ACOG conveniently decided that even younger girls should attend for an annual exam, “that might not include a pelvic exam”…but appears to include a visual inspection of the genitals “to ensure the girl is developing normally”…are boys expected to have their genitals examined to ensure they’re developing normally?
There is NO evidence backing up the need for these exams…IMO, they can only lead to distress and harm.
IMO, this is an attempt to groom girls at an early age to accept this life-long intrusion on the healthy female body…to brainwash girls to believe they must have these exams or die an early, preventable death.
Many older women have endured excess all their lives and are convinced their children must do the same thing. It will take a lot to convince these women that these exams are unhelpful, unnecessary and potentially harmful. I can’t imagine the pain when it finally dawns that the profession has used them to boost profits….in the worst possible way.
The healthy female body should be embraced, valued and protected, not used as medical fodder to maximize profits.
Found a good article by Margaret Wendt from The Globe and Mail with the headline “Drop the Paternalism and Sell the Pill over the Counter”.
The content is already familiar to the regular readers of this blog, but the author made a few of the points in very interesting ways. The full article is at:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/drop-the-paternalism-and-sell-the-pill-over-the-counter/article536144/
A few of the interesting lines:
Tim Rowe is one of Canada’s leading experts in reproductive health. He’s been arguing for years that selling the Pill by prescription is outmoded and paternalistic. There’s no reason you shouldn’t be able to buy the Pill as easily as you buy Aspirin – or condoms.
… This exam [pelvic] has nothing to do with the Pill anyway. It’s just a convenience for the doctor. In fact, there’s no more reason to have a pelvic exam before you get the Pill than there is for a man to have his testicles inspected before he uses condoms. (And how many men would put up with that?)
… the benefits of greater access to the Pill would be huge. Apart from preventing unwanted pregnancies, it also reduces the risk of uterine and ovarian cancer by 50 per cent or more. Some experts say it should be available over the counter for its cancer-reducing effects alone.
… Some doctors worry that if women didn’t have to come in to get the Pill, they’d skip their Pap smears.
… So why not in the United States and Canada? “Extortion,” says Ms. Postrel. For pharmaceutical companies, over-the-counter approval would be costly. Doctors would lose patients. Pharmacists would lose dispensing fees.
Exactly! It is all about what is more profitable for doctors and pharmaceutical companies, and what is cheaper and more convenient for the medical systems. It is never about what is better for women. Even the damned pap smears – they are imposed on women because it is more convenient and profitable for the medical system, not because they are good for women.
If anyone really cared about women’s heath, HPV primary self-testing would be easily available, with an option to test anonymously, and there would be an HPV test for men too.
But so far, men are told not to worry about HPV at all, and women are told that there is nothing better than having pap smears for most of their lives, and coerced into having tools regularly shoved into their vaginas and their cervixes scraped under the threat of cervical cancer.
Of course none of the controlling powers wants to sell the Pill over the counter. How else can they keep their profits and control women? Men would never allow their genitals to be inspected and monitored, therefore to keep access to people’s sexual life, the system has to keep holding women under control.
To say women might skip their pap test if the Pill was available OTC shows how warped the thinking is in women’s “healthcare”….it’s like saying, “men won’t have prostate checks unless we put condoms and Viagra on script”… No one would accept that statement, yet so many accept that thinking for women.
ALL cancer screening is elective and legally and ethically requires our informed consent, it can never be required for anything. I’d challenge any doctor saying otherwise…it says to me they’re either unethical or incompetent.
Hello,
I just want to say that I completely agree with you, and I thought that the way pap tests are approached was strange, even before I knew there were other women like me! Maybe we can make a difference…
Anyway, I really appreciate the list of online pharmacies. I copied it into a document, and I’ve been going through it, trying to find one that works for me. Unfortunately, I’ve had no luck yet. Either they don’t ship to Canada (where I live), or you need a Visa card (I only have a Mastercard), or they say they take Mastercard but when you click the option, it says that option is “temporarily” unavailable. One accepts bank wire transfers, but I don’t think my bank does that. Not as far as I can tell, anyway.
I was wondering if the person who created this list, or the owner of this blog, would mind if I copied the list into the “Against Gyn Exams” Facebook page? I would like to do that and add my notations about whether I was able to get any of these to work for me. Perhaps others who try it could also leave comments noting their experiences. Please let me know. Thanks!
Tanya thank you for this information, it is great you are sharing the process of how it is going as you attempt to order online, it could help others in the same situation. All I did was publish this list, it was Torrance who did the work of searching for online birth control sources. It is okay with me if you want to share this list if it is okay with Torrance. As far as I know it is fine to cite from online sources as long as you reference the source/site but I appreciate you asking. I hope you keep us updated here/over on Blogcritics as well as on Facebook. Also, Torrance might be able to help with any difficulties ordering.
Okay, well I have put a document up on the Facebook group, but I will remove it if Torrance wants me to. There are some dead links in that list.
I am almost to the end of the list, and so far, still no luck. Maybe if I had a Visa. :/ Although I have encountered so many obstacles with this so far that I feel like even if I had a Visa, there would be some other problem that would prevent me from ordering.
Tanya I have also left a message on Blogcritics for Torrance asking for suggestions. It could be due to some companies putting up some roadblocks. Pharmaceutical companies and doctors stand to lose business in regards to dispensing fees and extra screening fees when women order online. Very frustrating it is so difficult. Apparently a law has been passed in Australia that allows women to purchase pills over the counter without a prescription: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/law-allows-women-to-see-pharmacist-for-birth-control-pill-supplies/story-fn7x8me2-1226286392975 Does it make you want to move to Australia?
I went on the pill when I was a teen. I was still a virgin but went on them just in case. The doctor in the small town I lived in only gave me three months worth and told me I would need a pelvic exam before he would renew the prescription. The prospect of having to go through the exam helped me decide the pill wasn’t for me. Condoms have always worked well for me – plus if there’s ever an accident there is always the morning after pill. But I know it’s not the solution for everyone, plus some women take the pill for other reasons than contraception.
Yeah, that’s probably a step forward for Australia, but there are conditions, of course. Because we silly women can’t be trusted to take care of ourselves, you know. I think pharmacists can do that here in Canada, too, but they will only do maybe a month’s worth (if that), and then they insist you go get a prescription.
I would happily go off the Pill if I could, and never deal with any of this ever again! But once you’re on them, it’s hard on your body to go off of them. Last time I tried, I developed very bad menorrhagia. The only thing that made it stop was the Pill.
I have found out that Canadians can buy prepaid Visa cards at the post office, though, so I’m going to get one of them and then try the links that accept Visa.
Tanya I hope the plan works! It just isn’t right that doctors keep demanding the exams when they are clearly not medically indicated. This article sums it up well:
Abuse may be encouraged by the system
Submitted by john davies on August 31, 2012 – 8:57am.
When the ‘pill’ (oral contraceptive) was first widely available in the 1970s, the drug companies crafted guidelines for its prescription that justified a prolonged sexual assault for any male doctor that wished to take advantage. It was common for females wanting the pill (some of whom were children, requiring it for non-sexual reasons), to be forced to do a striptease in front of the doctor, and then, when naked, have their breasts groped for an extended period.
The drug guidelines allowed just about every form of touching and questioning a perverted doctor could wish for, and what’s more, the same was allowed every few months when the prescription was renewed.
Did every doctor use the opportunity of the pill to abuse their patients? Of course not. But, remember, the pill, which was not ‘medicine’ treating an illness, was required by very many extremely healthy young women at the beginning of their sexual life- and this was putting temptation beyond compare in front of a generation of male doctors.
In many European countries, this practice continues, where women are expected to strip naked in front of the male doctor, and stay fully naked, even for questioning and exam stages that require no bodily access at all. This process, while a treat for some bad doctors, is designed to make people submissive and pliable to ‘authority’, which is why the more forceful populations of English-speaking nations no longer tolerate this behaviour by doctors.
The intimate medical inspection of any Human beyond early childhood is very controversial if that inspection is done to a person without any previous signs of disease or injury. Certainly, the examination of the external genitalia of patients who did not previously suggest they thought they had a problem there is almost always going to be abusive, and without medical validity. When doctors got to grope every single young adult that was forced to appear before them (with no medical justification at all- which is why such school exams no longer occur in countries like the UK), latent abusive tendencies were bound to be activated in a significant proportion of doctors.
When doctors are told they are allowed to touch the clitoris of a female, or the penis of a male, or ask intimate sexual questions (obviously in situations where the patient has not previously suggested a problem in those areas), the doctor is being programmed to be abusive. Add to this the fact that doctors are clever enough to be extremely manipulative, if they so wish, and are protected against legal action by a raft of extremely powerful and influential professional bodies, and you craft a nightmare.
Go read about the Mormon doctor who spent a whole career abusing a town of victims, from young children to the oldest women. Go read about one of the highest men in Australia’s medical community, who made a speciality of subjecting young, attractive flight-stewardesses to prolonged sexual assault in the name of a regular medical inspection.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/critical-decisions/201208/inappropriate-touching-in-the-doctor-s-office/comments?#comment-250527
Yes, It’s only a very limited supply, if you run out and can’t see a doctor for 2 weeks.
So it’s far from full OTC access, you still need to see a doctor for the initial consult and a review that confirmed the suitability of that Pill and only that brand can be dispensed AND only enough to cover you until you can get back to the doctor. Our doctors were outraged by this limited access.
Control here is very important, this is the consult that usually triggers the pap test pressure and some women assume they need them if they’re on the Pill making it easier for doctors and their targets.
I even found Glen Street Medical Clinic in WA boldly and incorrectly say on their website that women on the Pill “need” pap tests. So some doctors still link the two unrelated things. It means some women are being misled into pap tests which negates consent. I made a complaint, but received no response. When the program calls for serious over-screening and you’re paid to achieve targets, you need to keep women on a short leash.
It seems it’s easier to order the Pill online down here, but I fear if the authorities work this out and if enough women go down that path and threaten the program, they might block that option, “for our own good”.
I read a post online recently, an American woman decided to holiday in Mexico and came back with her Pills purchased OTC. Not surprising she’s decided it might be a regular long weekend…she felt the expense was worth it to avoid that exam. Not only is the coercion hard to stomach, but the exam risks your health, and cancer screening should be our decision. From memory though she lived in Texas, so it was not that far away.
When everyone says these exams are unnecessary for the Pill, more should be done to stop medical coercion. The doctors who force guidelines, quickly ignore them when they don’t suit their agenda.
I’m a little curious/confused about something–are there countries where you can buy birth control pills OTC, without a prescription? What we need, if so, are smugglers, lol!
It INFURIATES me that women are treated like this. I want to find out more about informed consent laws as they pertain to pap testing in Canada, but I can’t find anything. ANY information that isn’t “HAVE PAP TESTS OR YOU WILL DIE A HORRIBLE AND PREVENTABLE DEATH AND IT WILL BE ALL YOUR FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!eleventy!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1″ is hard to come by.
Tanya smuggling isn’t a bad idea! I can see it now, women driving back from Mexico with birth control pills taped to the bottom of the car and hidden in the trunk under the tequila. I have looked into the legalities of informed consent and how it relates to having health care withheld when women refuse paps, but it is a bit vague. Bottom line seems to be related to an old boys club mentality that prevails in law and government, and that might be the main reason doctors are getting away with how they treat women.
From the patient’s bill of rights it states:
Individual rights and entitlements, on the other hand, refer to the application of the health care system at the patient or consumer level; in other words, what individuals are entitled to and can expect at various stages of the health care system when they interact with health care providers and institutions. These rights include rights to information, privacy, confidentiality, and consent to treatment.
http://publications.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/prb0131-e.htm
So the right to consent is clear . . . but women are not being offered information or consent in regards to paps. Maybe we need to start calling 911 and reporting attempted assault when doctors attempt to coerce us into unwanted vaginal exams?
Elizabeth I’m not surprised the doctors were outraged at even limited access, it must have scared them. I’m glad you made a complaint about the clinic stating women “need” to have paps if on the pill. The boldness with which they were advertising shows blatant disregard for research and recommendations from ACOG, etc. not to mention women’s rights, which they clearly think they are above. It’s a great idea to combine a vacation to Mexico with a pill shopping spree, but look at the lengths women are having to go to.
Tanya, I don’t know about any laws but the Canadian Medical Associations ethics would apply: http://policybase.cma.ca/dbtw-wpd/PolicyPDF/PD04-06.pdf
They state:
21. Provide your patients with the information
they need to make informed decisions about their
medical care,
24. Respect the right of a competent patient to
accept or reject any medical care recommended.
If a Doctor does not respect your right to refuse PAPs (or any tests) they are violating their ethics and if they persist they are engaging in coercion which is counter to informed consent which again is violating their ethics. If this happens you can report them to the Canadian Medical Association.
Thank you for that link, ADM! That’s another good one. Maybe I should print these out and highlight the pertinent parts, and then bring them with me when I go to the doctor. I wonder what they’d do? LOL
Now again, if they say that they will respect my right to refuse a pap, but they won’t write me a prescription if I don’t get one, is that coercion? It seems like it to me, but is it legally?
Haha, I’m from a small town known for it’s Rum Running during Prohibition–perhaps it’s in my nature, but I’d be a willing bcp smuggler! :p
Thank you for the link to the patient’s Bill of Rights. I will be interested to read it. It does sound a bit vague…I can see them saying that you don’t have to consent, but then the doctor doesn’t have to prescribe your birth control. Which to me, is coercion, but I doubt that they see it that way.
Tanya you’ve got my vote! Doctors dance around the issue of informed consent by stating the woman is free to go elsewhere for birth control when the woman declines a pap/vaginal exam/STD testing, but if ALL doctors do this then where exactly is the woman supposed to go? Saying that a woman is free to go elsewhere is essentially the same as denying the woman informed consent. The woman is not “free”, and the woman has limited options.
According to federal law here in the states you are supposed to be able to bring back 90 days of non-scheduled/narcotic drugs for your personal use. I do know people who hop over to Mexico to do that and birth control pills are OTC there…
I think it’s coercion. American and Canadian doctors have made “elective” cancer screening part of their convenient “standard of care” for the Pill.
The Pill has nothing to do with cancer screening. Why not make prostate screening part of the standard of care for Viagra? Why is it only women who face these doctor-made barriers?
It seems they reach for a “standard of care” that mandates pelvic and breast exams and pap testing for the Pill. (even though they’re not clinical requirements) This is no doubt because they see more risk FOR THEM with an un-screened patient developing cc or ovarian cancer etc, than being pursued because of much more likely over-treatment. It’s about them, not us. It’s outrageous AND the routine pelvic exam is not even a screening test for ovarian cancer or anything else.
I know defensive medicine is the norm in the States, but surely, they could simply ask you to sign a waiver…explain the risks of not testing and get your signature. (of course, no one mentions the much higher risks WITH testing) More American doctors are prescribing the Pill without the excess though, and I don’t think they see the need for waivers. Do you get a waiver if your patient decides against a colonoscopy? This hyper-sensitivity seems unique to women’s “healthcare”.
PP have HOPE and I know it’s a bit hit and miss, some pressure you during the consult or just “delay” your first exam. You’d probably hit a brick wall at some point, but some seem to offer a genuine HOPE program, do they get women to sign waivers?
I found some discussion on a legal forum about this issue and you get the usual responses from the public, but a couple of lawyers responded and basically said, you have the right to decline any test or exam, the doctor has a right not to treat you/prescribe or keep you as a patient if you refuse the standard of care. They suggested finding another doctor. I know that can be difficult in the States with your insurance companies dictating the use of certain Clinics.
In Australia it’s different, it’s a try-on, I doubt many doctors would be stupid enough to let you walk out without Pills if they thought you’d make a complaint, because they’d be in trouble. How can you justify denying a woman the Pill because she declines an elective screening test?
The thing is, the issue probably rarely arises…most women assume they must have pap tests, it has something to do with the Pill, give in and put up with the testing to get the Pill or feel angry about the situation, but make no complaint. So doctors (I suspect) rarely face a firm NO, I’m leaving and making a complaint.
http://www.managingcontraception.com/newsevents/dr-bob/pelvic-exam-necessary-for-contraception-rx/
http://www.managingcontraception.com/qa/questions.php?questionid=635
I wonder if you contacted this doctor he might have some ideas. I know he offered to contact a woman’s doctor when he refused to prescribe the Pill without exams and a pap test. (it turned out she was just wondering why women faced this barrier and didn’t actually need BC)
Perhaps, you need an online list of doctors who follow the evidence, not a convenient standard of care that puts their interests first. It would make it easier for women…those who can access the Pill without the extras could list their doctor’s details. Can you imagine? I think as doctors see their waiting rooms empty, more of them would see the game is over, time to start treating women like competent adults. So many doctors “say” women should have access to the Pill without these exams, but know what’s happening in practice, surely it’s time to do something about it? Name and shame? Over the counter access?
It is a truly great idea, to make an online list of doctors who truly respect the evidence and the patient’s decision!
Perhaps, we could have a dedicated post in this blog, sorted by country and state, an the owner of the blog could update the list as more comments with doctor;s name appear.
Otherwise, people should use RateMDs.com site more often and leave comments about each and every doctor they see, telling the others about their experience with the doctor, positive or negative. This way we can change the way the medical system treats us! Nasty doctors will see their waiting rooms empty, eventually. And the good ones will be known, so that the patients had a clear direction where to go should they need medical assistance.
If we don’t start naming the offenders, we will never change the faulty system.
Al yes, I just replied to Tanya (see below) with the same idea of RateMDs. I don’t think it is legal to post doctor’s names with information on a blog, but it would be great if it was. If anyone knows about this please let us know. Otherwise some information left on RateMDs would work well too. Great minds
Why wouldn’t it be legal? You’re just helping women find respectful, informed care.
Now does anyone have any suggestions on ways to start undoing the brainwashing of women, so most don’t follow along like sheep (making it harder for those of us who don’t want to follow)?
Hello, everyone. I have numerous bits of advice & observations that may help with this sort of thing. First off: Dynamics don’t change because standards do. That’s become a personal saying of mine. ANY interface with sexual areas (visually or physcially) as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. It doesn’t matter if these are the properties of a medical procedure, it’s just an iatrogenic variation at that point (a word not everyone is familiar with, perhaps a bit of a problem-helper, in itself- harder to articulate things). If a doctor were to poison someone with a needle, that’s still murder. In this case, it’s an abusive act (specifically, a penetrative one) with additional ramifications (a massive amount of risk & inaccuracy is a point all on it’s own- they’re not supposed to be purveying things that are untrue or unsafe, anyway).
Two: That the mechanics of what happens don’t change because of designation. Overall, the structure of the situation is an EXTANT CIRCUMSTANCE (“reality is what it is,” a familiar saying). Circumstances constitute the situation & circimstances are not affected by designation. If reality was really formed by recognition, nobody would get hit by a car they didn’t see coming or drown if they tried to walk on the water (or get attacked by people they thought were trustable, either). What’s somebody going to argue? That they think by adjucation (thinking, “reality is what I SAY it is”)? They do a nice job looking crazy, at that point.
Three: Your body, your rules. That should be an apparent point, but sometimes not. The situation is formed according to YOUR discretion. Your decisions construct the alignment of things. If things are going in a direction you aren’t cool with, that’s the end of it. Overall, medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not some kind of acedemic value, anyway. That helps with countering the “you’re wrong/bad grade” approach. We could get into quite a long discussion about social engineering (lying, guilt trips, rushing people around so there’s no time to think, definitive phrasing= “What you WILL be having, what we’re GOING to be doing- phrasing as a statement not a question- which would be something that requires a counter-statement to “veto” it) and I’ll likely add to this later, but for now this would be useful to know. The phrase “I elect to omit/decline (whatever it is)” might work. So might “I refuse to have (whatever it is).” Might be a good idea to have someone with you as back-up that won’t spin around on you (potentially for safety, I’ve heard of threats & intimidation being used, as well as coercion & social engineering).
Whatever angle of compulsion you’re dealing with, it’s still someone trying to applying influence of this nature at their discretion. It’s easy to get lost in nonsense (sometimes that’s the point of nonsense), but it still boils down to this being the situation. It’s an impsed situation. Any variation of “it’s not up to you, we implement our own decisions,” is wrong & it makes them generically untrustable, as well. Be more aggressive in your defense, is the advice I’ll end this off on (for now).
Well, I have a small update. I got a prepaid Visa at Safeway (that was convenient!), and ordered a year’s worth of pills online today. I ordered from this site: http://rxpro-24×7.com/. I confess to being a little bit nervous about ordering online–how do I know that what I’m getting actually is the pill? Also, they were really, really cheap. REALLY cheap. I think shipping cost more than the pills. I’m also not really sure about this particular site–I have no concrete reason, but I just feel nervous about it. I feel nervous about any of the ones that push ED pills, I guess. I might just be being paranoid. Let’s hope so. I’d be interested to hear of anyone else’s experience with ordering bcp online.
Apparently, there have been problems with some companies that prevent them from shipping to Canada. Customs sends them back, for some reason. I am somewhat uncomfortable with this–I’m not really thrilled that the government is pawing through my mail. I guess they need to be safe, but…yeah. It just doesn’t seem quite right. This company that I ordered from sends the pills out in smaller packages of 120, I believe. So I should get two packages, a few days apart. They say this helps with the Customs issue. I hope I don’t get in any kind of trouble.
Now, the guilt. I really feel guilty that I want to avoid having a stranger poking around in my bits. I guess I have been brainwashed. I’d like to get over it, but I don’t know how. I am also somewhat terrified that I will get (or already have) cervical cancer, and will die a horrible, excruciating, preventable death, all because I wanted to have some control over my own body. Any tips/suggestions on dealing with these feelings would be appreciated!
I also have some news about the Delphi screener. I wrote to them, asking if it could be available in Canada, and they are looking into making it available for women to order online (and then ship back to Europe for analysis–because that’s what kind of lengths we have to go through for this sort of thing). I have asked to be added to a list so that I find out about it as soon as it’s available. I will keep you posted.
Sorry about my extremely long-winded post. I have a few more questions, for anyone who might know–it is very interesting to me that the Pill is available in Mexico without a prescription (I assume that’s what you mean by OTC?). What other countries, worldwide, provide the pill over-the-counter without a prescription? Anyone know? I love the suggestion of an online list of doctors who follow the evidence in this regard. Let’s set one up! I don’t know of any, so I have nothing to contribute. :/ My other question is, how is the HPV test done? Is it a blood test, or is it an invasive pelvic test like the pap? And if it IS a blood test, why don’t they just send us for those tests, and only give women who are positive the option to have the pap?
Tanya, there are a couple of different HPV tests. There used to be one made by ThinPrep (company that does Pap kits in the USA) that used urine to test, but most of them require tissue/fluid from the vagina. The one that is currently offered by ThinPrep is done at the same time a pap specimen is taken.
However the self-screeners like the Delphi are just that: you take the sample yourself – no doctors poking around up there – and it’s like using a tampon.
There actually IS a blood test that is far more sensitive than the pap: Cervical Specific Antigen. It detects changes from bona fide cervical cancer, not “cell changes,” as well. It was approved by the FDA in America almost TEN YEARS AGO but doctors still don’t offer it. Why? It’s far less of a money maker than an annual pap and all the unnecessary followup for biopsy. That’s why.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/27364.php
As for being worried about cervical cancer: one thing that might help is to look at the actual lists of most common cancers. CC doesn’t scratch the top ten for any of them. Right now you have a higher risk of getting pancreatic cancer, ovarian cancer, kidney cancer, lymphoma…many other types of cancer. You don’t worry about those, do you? You know they’re rare and you don’t worry that you’re about to get sick with them. Cervical cancer is even LESS COMMON than those other rare cancers. I couldn’t find the stats for Canada, but here are some for the UK and the USA.
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/incidence/commoncancers/
http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/uscs/toptencancers.aspx
Okay, so the Delphi Screener *is* a test for HPV? I thought it was a test for cervical abnormalities, like the pap.
As to the CSA test–I have heard of that before, and it sounded promising. However, that article you linked to is from 2005, and the website for Onconix no longer exists. I have seen articles saying that the CSA test isn’t as accurate as they had previously thought. Now I don’t know how true that is, but I’m interested in learning more. Are there countries that offer it? What happened to Onconix?
I’m a little afraid of pancreatic cancer, just because it’s so bad. And I’m a worrywart. I worry more that someone I love will get it than that I will get it, though. No, I’m not really worried about any of the others.
Cancer stats for Canada:
http://www.cancer.ca/~/media/cancer.ca/CW/cancer%20information/cancer%20101/Canadian%20cancer%20statistics/Canadian-Cancer-Statistics-2012—English.pdf
This is a map showing where birth control pills are available over the counter/without a prescription. They’re available in most countries outside Western Europe, North America, Australia and Japan.
http://binaryapi.ap.org/9ed6525de3c04262b53ad7e089396945/460x.jpg
Thanks! That’s strange…so basically, all the developed countries require a prescription. Why?
Because it’s all about business and money in “developed” countries.
Forcing women to go to doctor every tome they need the Pill means full waiting rooms and huge profits derived from unnecessary doctor visits, tests, checks, and possibly further investigations of “suspicious” cells and painful over-treatment. It’s not done to keep us healthy, it’s just the medical machine using us to make money.
Can’t they find a less invasive way to cash in on us, then?
How does this work for countries with free health care?
Countries with free health care like Canada have a fee-for-service payment, so doctors are able to charge extra fees for every test they do:
“Of course, it must be pointed out that there always have been economic considerations in giving care, and that fee-for-service health insurance coverage has long been criticized for encouraging excessive and unnecessary care (i.e., a physician will order a whole battery of extra tests, knowing they are unnecessary or of marginal value, because the doctor will be paid extra for doing those tests for the patient)” http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/doctor/care/capitation.html So another way to avoid the pap or other vaginal exams might be to offer to pay them cash to make up for their lost extra fees when we say no to screening.
Tanya, good luck, hope your Pills arrive safely. Don’t worry about being long-winded, I’m the Queen of long winded posts.
The HPV test is invasive, similar to a pap test, but there is a self-test option (as you know), currently being used by Dutch and other women, the Delphi Screener. (It’s also available in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand and being rolled out in several other countries) Australian women can order it from Delphi Bioscience in Singapore, but hopefully, a local distributor will be sorted out shortly.
I know American doctors are doing HPV AND pap tests on women aged 30 and older, this doubling-up creates the most over-investigation. The HPV primary test should stand alone.
I doubt HPV self-testing will be offered in some countries, it’s not good for business and sadly, IMO, that’s what women’s healthcare is, BIG business. (in countries that don’t follow evidence based testing anyway)
Your last Q is spot-on…and I think there are a few factors, huge profits when you pap test all women every 2 or 3 years and biopsy/treat many of them, political factors etc…also, once these programs start, it’s hard to wind them back. Even after changes are made, many women/doctors stay with the old guidelines.
Note: the new Dutch program will take 95% of women aged 30+ OUT of pap testing, women will be offered 5 HPV primary tests or self-test (some will have just one or two) and that means the false positive/excess biopsy and over-treatment rates we see with population pap testing will plummet. We should also, see fewer women with damage to the cervix, so fewer premature babies, miscarriages, high risk pregnancies/cervical cerclage, c-sections etc
The new Dutch program will focus on the 5% aged 30 or older who are HPV+ and at risk, IMO, it will save more lives. We’re talking about HUGE sums lost to vested interests.
I’ve never had a pap test (I’m 55) and I don’t worry about cervical cancer. I focus on health and well-being, but if I worried about anything, I’d start with a real threat, like heart disease or lung/bowel cancer, all of them are FAR more likely than rare cervical cancer.
IMO, women have been trained to greatly fear this rare cancer, way out of proportion to the risk. Do you worry about thyroid cancer and check your neck every year? Well, that cancer occurs more often than cervical cancer, it poses a greater threat. (lifetime risk:1.03%)
How many women worry about colon and rectum cancer? Much more likely…lifetime risk, 4.96%
The lifetime risk of cervical cancer is LESS than 1% (0.65%)…so I think it’s important to understand the risks with and without testing.
Also, how old are you? Remember that Finland has the lowest rates of cc in the world and their program is 5 yearly from 30 to 60, 6-7 pap tests. I know some women worry if they’re “overdue”…and then you read they tested 2 years ago, they’re seriously over-screening!
I think knowledge is the key here…when you’re aware of the facts, the propaganda and scare campaigns have no effect, in fact, you note the misinformation. The Breast Screen people use a slogan, “1 in 9 will be effected by breast cancer”…sounds bad, but it’s highly misleading, they’ve included all ages up to old age. Risk rises with age, so someone 35 does not have a 1 in 9 risk, but that’s what some women will hear…from memory, the risk for a 50 year old is about 1 in 55 or 60. (these figures may also, be skewed, thanks to over-diagnosis)
I don’t have breast screening either, I went over the evidence and in the end, it was an easy decision. So I’d suggest you do your reading, knowledge is the key here.
It was the numbers that scared me with cervical screening (never released to women, I had to hunt for them)…near zero risk of cc v 77% lifetime risk of referral for colposcopy. (that also, usually means a biopsy, and for many, over-treatment) My younger sister went through a cone biopsy after a false positive pap test and colposcopy, it was a traumatic experience. The risk of over-treatment or excess biopsy is much higher than the risk of cervical cancer. Screening tests are never risk-free, they can lead to some ugly places. I think we should be advised of these risks “before” we test, it’s hard to assess the need for and the risks with “treatment” with a clear head…with an “abnormal” test result hanging over your head.
In the end it’s up to individual women, but it’s outrageous that women are pressured/coerced to test with no real information…screening should be our informed decision….to accept or decline as we see fit. If women want to test and are given all of the information, they might choose to follow something like the Finnish program which greatly reduces the risk of a false positive or they might seek out HPV primary testing or self-testing. Personally, if I wanted to test, I wouldn’t even consider a pap test without first testing for HPV. Why on earth would any woman want to spend a lifetime having unnecessary pap tests with the high risk of over-treatment?
http://www.ocsotc.org/
(map showing countries that provide the Pill OTC. (no script))
I’m 34 (will be 35 in a few months), married, monogamous (pretty sure both of us are and always will be), and had one other previous partner (who I’m pretty sure WAS a cheater and he was probably a high risk for HPV). But by some miracle, I don’t seem to have caught anything obviously detectable from the ex. I don’t think I was ever tested for HPV, as far as I know. I would actually really like to know if I’m HPV+ or not.
Can men be tested for HPV? If so, how are they tested?
Hi Tanya
Hope your Pills arrive safely.
I’ve always read there is no HPV test for men, but I doubt that can be right. We’re vaccinating boys now, the Gardasil program was extended last year, so I assume they must be able to test men.
I did read on my medical forum that the test involves a probe into the penis to scrape off some cells and that naturally, most men would be reluctant to have the test.
I thought that was interesting, there seems to be no consideration when it comes to women. They also, know that scare campaigns are less effective with men and it’s much harder to coerce men. On one forum a doctor felt it was also, much more likely to come back and bite you. I recall an American man who declined a rectal exam in emergency, sued the hospital for assault when they went ahead anyway. We need to do more of that…for too long women have given in, accepted coercion, pressure etc…
As more women refuse to be treated this way, we’re more likely to see change. Also, several American doctors are being vocal on this topic now and that will help a lot. I can’t believe how many articles are now appearing in the States in the WSJ and NYTimes, so many pieces on over-diagnosis, false positives, over-treatment, medical excess and coercion. Things are so bad and harmful in women’s healthcare in the States that they may see change before more moderate countries. Here there is very little critical discussion, I think few women here would be denied the Pill if they declined pap tests…so if a woman doesn’t want pap tests, she can usually find a way, although she’ll probably get a lecture. We may see that change if we introduce a call and recall system, which appears to likely. The UK saw some shocking conduct after the introduced their call and recall system, women were harassed, sacked as patients, ordered to attend counseling. Most of it is a try-in, but sadly, it seems most women give in at some point.
There is no pressure here to have pelvic and breast exams, they’re not recommended.
I know the Ibis Centre for Reproductive Health are pushing for OTC access for the Pill. America is likely to see it happen long before we do…and ACOG now support OTC access. I smell a rat there, I assume the shocking figures for unplanned pregnancies has forced their hand and perhaps, political pressure.
It is madness that you could allow doctors to place a huge and unnecessary barrier around something as important as birth control. It’s also, absurd to say screening for a rare cancer justifies this stance, not to mention it’s a shocking abuse of women’s rights.
I hope you’re right about things changing. I know you’re right about the breast and pelvic exams. The first time I went for my “Well Woman” exam, I had a pelvic (I had no idea that was going to happen!) and a breast exam (I think…I forget). Now it’s sort of hit and miss, but I don’t think there’s much pressure to have either of them. Not at my age, anyway. But, those are not the exams I object to. I object to having a speculum inserted into my vagina to crank it open. The very thought makes me want to pass out!
How come it’s okay to insert a probe into a woman’s vagina and scrape cells off her cervix, but it’s not okay to insert a probe into a man’s penis to scrape off cells. Never mind, it’s a rhetorical question. Shocking abuse of women’s rights, for sure!
What is a call and recall system?
http://www.connectingforhealth.nhs.uk/systemsandservices/ssd/downloads/cervical/contents/1-1intro#callrecall
The one thing that jumps out….control.
It’s like backing sheep into a corner to run them through flea rinse. All exits covered…
So women are registered with a clinic, are called for screening, if you don’t attend, you’re called again, no response, then your doctor gets a notice and another…you haven’t been screened. This means your file will be flagged so if you wander in with a cold they’ll try and screen you there and then, or you’ll get letters, perhaps, phone calls. Some women feel harassed…some avoid medical care.
The conduct of some doctors is outrageous, demanding non-screeners attend “counseling” at the clinic with one or two doctors (this is IMO, to intimidate and scare women into testing, it’s a try-on and women should refuse to attend and make a complaint/report the doctor) and some remove women from patient records.
So the print-out of unscreened women is in order with the remaining names sacked by the practice. Some nurses are handed the print-out and their job is to “chase” women. There is a health forum with a thread on chasing women, the discussion is quite shocking..they sound like police officers chasing escapees.
Our screening rates are falling…and some believe we need tighter controls, like a call and recall system.
It’s a shame more women don’t fight back, it’s an outrageous way to treat women, but it’s highly effective and gets more women screened.
To hell with informed consent and proper ethic standards.
Also, everything is computerized, so a woman can’t say I tested last week, a simple check will confirm she’s an unscreened woman. Liar!
The target payments received by doctors for pap testing, plus a call and recall system is bad news for women. It’s impossible (so I’m told) to officially opt-out forever, 4 years later the letters start again.
If it happens here, I’ll be testing the system, if my opt-out is not respected, they’ll be the ones receiving letters, from my solicitor.
o.O
That is the most horrendous thing I have ever heard. They don’t do quite that much here, thank goodness! Ack! That’s crazy!
You know, I was thinking, too, of the way my wishes haven’t been respected in this situation. Not only am I coerced to have the exam, but also, they will not listen to me if I do get it. I feel a LOT more comfortable if they use a small (child-sized) speculum, and I know they can do it because the first doctor to give me a pap test used a small one. Also, they won’t always agree to use lubrication on the speculum (ouch! See why I hate going and call it torture?). They say it can affect the results, which I think is a load of crap. So maybe if I start refusing and they ask me why, I’ll tell them just why I don’t want it.
Sorry, meant to say it’s a “try-on” not a try-in and the health forum is not “my” forum, but “a” forum. Bit of wishful thinking there…
Over the years, I have had several invitations to attend cervical screening. I have ignored all the invitations and the follow up letters that got increasingly more aggressive with their tone.
I have, without fail, at each and every visit to my GP or Nurse the question of screening raised. I have also had the pleasure of a doctor’s receptionist shout across the waiting room – “‘Mrs B – you are overdue for your smear test – do you want to make an appointment now?”.
I have had a Nurse ring me at home in an attempt to persuade me to screen.
I have had a discussion with a friend that works at another surgery as a HCP, and she tells me that there is a bonus to be paid for every under-screened women that is captured on the couch!!
I read words on health forums such as “non-compliant”, opportunistic screening, aggressive chasing – quotes from Nurses such as “94% of eligible women at my surgery are screened- I’m aiming for 100%”. Shocking. Which part of NO do you not understand?
Hi Jane
They’d been ”harrassing” me with their letters and reminders (highlighted in red! hahaha). I was so fed up with it all that I wrote an e-mail to them telling the truth how awful I feel. In a couple of weeks I got a letter with a piece of paper to sign that I don’t agree to participate in the programme. The last sentence said: AND I AM AWARE THAT NOT PARTICIPATING IN CERVICAL SCREENING (something like that – I don’t remember the words exactly) CAUSES DEATHS. I signed it but I wrote, IN CAPITAL LETTERS, under this stupid sentence: I DO NOT AGREE AT ALL THAT NOT PARTICIPATING IN IT CAUSES DEATHS. I wish I’d added: AND YOU ARE USING THE SCARE TACTICS – I really should have done so.
When my second child was born I did not go for the post natal check up as I was afraid they would try to talk me into having the horrible pap which I would, of course, clearly and firmly have opposed to but, fortunately, I cancelled the appointment and sighed with relief.
I must admit that I dread to think of going to the GP with anything – a sore throat, temperature, feeling unwell, just whatever – I would explode there if I was asked the question why I don’t participate in ”this”.
BTW – if I were you, I would write a very serious complaint to the clinic about that Nurse. Have you thought of going anywhere further with it? Why not make her / them treat you confidentially?
Jane & Jola,
Interesting that the NHS has a nice website on informed consent, yet this is happening at the surgery level. Perhaps, they need to be reminded that words are just words, and action is long overdue, many doctors don’t “get it”…that is, if “they’re serious” about respecting informed consent for women. (and not just engaging in an exercise to placate advocates for informed consent for women) Or, is it they fear legal action with the outrageous conduct going on around the country, so they can point to their little website if a woman points the finger or speaks to her solicitor or the media? Isn’t it incredible that we need to remind doctors of our legal right and their ethical obligations?
Here is an interesting response by Andrew Rouse to an article by Dr Angela Raffle on informed consent for cancer screening.
Rogue doctors power drug with pap testing and chasing targets need to be pulled into line.
http://www.bmj.com/content/320/7238/872.1?tab=responses
Jola, congratulations on standing firm during a pregnancy, that’s when many women are “caught” by the system. Along with the consult for contraception, pre-natal and post-natal care are also, targeted by the pap police.
A table put together by Andrew Rouse.
The table gives a clear visual indication of the chance of a woman surviving for 10 years if she does – or doesn’t – have her routine Pap smears. It is apparent that to an individual woman the absolute benefit of having a Pap smear is small.
Table 1 – to show the benefit gained by women attending the NHS
cervical cancer-screening programme
________________________________________________________
Age No of Alive 10 Alive 10
at start women alive years later years later
of 10 at start of if they attend if they do
year period 10 year NHSCSP not attend
period NHSCSP
_______________________________________________________
25 10,000 9963 9962
35 10,000 9863 9859
45 10,000 9713 9708
55 10,000 9457 9450
______________________________________________________
Now factor in false negatives and the much larger risk of false positives and over-treatment.
What’s an HCP? Health care provider?
What/where are these health forums in which nurses discuss this sort of thing?
Tanya great job with working around the barriers and I’ll keep my fingers crossed for the precious cargo’s safe arrival. I don’t have much to add after those great answers Elizabeth and Diane, but Tanya I did want to let you know how I dealt with those feelings of guilt and worry because I once felt the same way. Those feelings have gone now but for me it took a while. In addition to much research and the support and help from the women on Blogcritics and here, I felt the need to see my own cervix. So I researched what a normal cervix should like (there are many pictures available online), ordered a speculum from a Canadian midwifery supply site, and then took a look. Once I had checked in on my own cervix (a shy but healthy and vital body part), all my worries went away. For me it was an important part of the process of taking control of my own body.
Thanks.
Yes, here’s hoping! I have a pap scheduled for May 16th, and the “merchandise” is supposed to arrive on the 17th at the earliest. Because I’m too cheap to pay for express shipping. Dangit! I will probably cancel my pap. But on the other hand, what if the pills do not arrive?
Can’t doctors find some other way to make extra money, that doesn’t involve that torture implement, the speculum? I think that’s an interesting way of dealing with the feelings of guilt and worry. That sounds like something that might set my mind at ease, except…speculums and I are sworn enemies. And also, I’m not sure I’m that flexible, lol! Maybe a speculum wouldn’t be so bad if I did it myself. Is there such a thing as a tiny little camera on a tiny little tube or something? I really hate speculums…
I do like the idea of taking control over my own body. What you did is something that wouldn’t have ever occurred to me. It wouldn’t have even crossed my mind that I COULD do it.
Have you, or anyone else that’s responded to me in the last few days, ever ordered bcp online? If so, how did it go?
Torrance has posted recently on Blogcritics and stated she has mainly had success in all the years she has been ordering online: http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/unnecessary-pap-smears/comments-page-200/#comments so that’s encouraging. Apparently there are more barriers being put up as you discovered – but you worked your way around them so now just the waiting . . .
I have to admit I felt like some kind of criminal to be looking somewhere I had never looked before, but I was so curious to see what the fuss was about the logistics of it became easier. And I felt so much better after seeing that everything looked normal.
I liked your reaction to my own well woman exam
I have ordered BCP, asthma meds and antibiotics from New Zealand and I was fine – the meds were sealed in factory packages with the manufacturer’s mark (Bayer NZ, I think). I checked them against the drugs.com pill identifier to be on the safe side and they matched. I think it’s a great idea to be careful because there are some online sites that aren’t sketchy. As a rule of thumb for myself, if the site claims to sell narcotics it probably isn’t legit.
Which company sells from New Zealand?
I think I ordered generic Alesse, so I don’t think the pill identifier would help me much. I just tried it out, though–it’s pretty cool! It only recognized my current Alesse, though. Not my other meds.
I don’t think that site claims to sell narcotics…but I’m not sure. I’ve heard that sites that sell without a prescription aren’t legit, though, too. I guess I will see how it goes once they get here. I do hope they’re sealed in packages! They’d pretty much have to be, right?
InHouse Pharmacy, they are on Torrance’s list.
They are I think located in Vanuatu but their meds are from NZ and Australia. I’m always edgy about naming pharmacies because of the fact that it makes them easier to get found and shut down.
The sites located in other countries generally claim that they are selling whatever is available over the counter in *their* country, and unscheduled/non narcotic drugs are legal to import (in the USA, at least). If the meds aren’t sealed in factory packets/bottles I wouldn’t use them…
Forwomans eyes only. my question is if doctors can see if a womans cervix looks healthy whats the use in a pap smear any ways. The people who pushed for all woman to have pap smears was not thinking. The concept seems stupid to me. woman can get cancer anywere yet we are made to think if you get pap smear your whole body will stay healthy. I remmeber when i was a teen reading magizens and girls were saying they didnt want to go to a gyno. And the reply was always “it is vital to yout health”. there is way more to a woman than just reprodutive organs what about heart cheecks the last time I heard you could die if you have a heart problem but no one pushed tests for that.
Kleigh that is a good question! The pap is very inaccurate. When you consider that 10 to 60% of all paps are incorrectly analyzed, many are false positives and 20 to 45% of paps are incorrectly analyzed as false negatives – that equates to paps being incorrectly analyzed much of the time. The following is copied and pasted from ehealth md.:
“Understanding Why Errors Occur
Experts agree that the conventional Pap test has a certain irreducible error rate. That means that even the most conscientious laboratories will sometimes
classify a normal smear as suspicious, or
fail to detect abnormal cells.
Why do errors occur?
Factors that affect the accuracy of any Pap test include whether the healthcare provider performing the screening
collects cells correctly
collects an adequate cell sample
prepares the microscope slide properly
and whether the laboratory technologist analyzes the cell sample accurately.
False negatives. False negatives incorrectly indicate that the Pap smear is normal even though cancer or precancer is present. Inadequate sampling and improper slide preparation may be responsible for 90 to95 percent of all false negatives. They can also result from failure to recognize or correctly classify abnormal cells
False positives. False positives incorrectly indicate that cancer or precancer is present in a normal cell sample.
Between 10 and 60 percent of all Pap smears are incorrectly analyzed. False negatives, which are far more common than false positives, may be reported 20 and 45 percent of the time. A gynecologist or family doctor who doubts the accuracy of any Pap smear report will repeat the screening and perform any appropriate diagnostic procedures.”
http://ehealthmd.com/content/how-accurate-are-pap-smear-results#axzz2RzXV83EN
Ah, Diane, that place you ordered from doesn’t ship to Canada.
Well, hopefully the site I ordered from will work out.
That site says my meds have shipped. That was quick! I looked the website up to see if they could be scammy or a hoax or sell fake pills, though, and they didn’t have a great rating. Although there wasn’t any real information (reviews, etc.). Ack! I’m so scared!
Tanya if it’s any consolation I’m waiting right along with you! Of course this wouldn’t even be necessary if doctors did what they were supposed to do in the first place and offered women informed consent. There is no other cancer screening or other test of any kind that is forced on people like the pap is forced on women.
Argh, I know! Look at what they’re driving us to. If they’re so worried about our health, how about not driving us to buy possibly questionable meds from overseas? Because that’s what I’ve been driven to, and the only reason I’m forced to do this is that I feel like I’m the one who should own/control my own body. Not doctors. Not the patriarchy. Not other women who go along like sheep and expect everyone else to do the same.
It really makes me furious that our wishes/rights are not respected in this regard. There has GOT to be something we could do. Something concrete, not just secretly ordering and stockpiling meds from overseas, like criminals. I would so love a list of doctors who prescribe the pill without requiring a pap test. I have no idea how that could be organized, though. A campaign demanding over-the-counter access? I don’t know.
Tanya, I know! It is frustrating beyond belief. I like the jib of your jibe, and one way that might work to keep track of who/who is not following ethical practices would be to leave a rating on “rate my MD”. If it’s too nasty the comments won’t get accepted (I know because I’ve tried), but if it’s something moderate it would most likely be accepted. So if a doctor refused to give bc pills based on a woman’s refusal of a vaginal exam, the rating could say something like “doctor did not offer informed consent for screening and withheld prescription” or something along those lines.
Hmmm, that’s not a bad idea. If we all start doing that, maybe we can start a movement towards change. Why women accept this is not only normal, but non-negotiable, is baffling to me! How can someone say that a woman has a right to her own body on one hand, and then turn around and say, “Well, except for that. You HAVE allow access for that,” when talking about invasive vaginal exams.
*have to
Well, I found out where the company is based, and where the pills are manufactured. I’m encouraged by this response that I got:
“Dear Tanya Lastname,
Our main office is located in London, UK. All the medications are manufactured
and shipped from India.
Please be informed that your order was successfully processed and shipped on
Wednesday, May 01, 2013.
Keep in mind that the delivery usually takes approximately 2-3 weeks. So the
delivery deadline is Wednesday, May 22, 2013.
Please, let us know of the outcome.
Please, do not hesitate to contact us in case you have any further question.”
So that shouldn’t be bad. Aren’t most pills–even brand names–manufactured in India, anyway?
Tanya that does sound on the up and up, very encouraging. I’m not sure where most pills are manufactured but it makes sense India would be as good a place as any. Maybe Torrance knows about this.
I really think goverments need to reconize this is happening instead of never speaking about it on the news. I dont see how this cant be rape. were talking about woman being forced to have tools and hands inside there vagina or no unrelated meads. this is insane i whould expect this in china but not Canada or the US. It is also sexist too because the burdan of birth control is all on woman. I have never heard of a doctor refuses a man unrelated care or meads unless they have a prostate exam. but I think its because alot of woman never question this. I wonder if a boycott whould change this. its oppresive. and sad that most woman dont even reconize it.
Tanya,
You were wondering about HPV testing for men. I suspect testing must be possible, but it’s kept very quiet. You might find this post from Blogcritics of interest, a urine HPV test for men. Interesting they have no problem inventing non-invasive tests for men, but it’s not important for women.
Posted by Over It All:
“Silly Me! Why should I care about men getting a Urine HPV Test when I can lay naked, spread eagle in front of a stranger (most likely male) while he fingers me and places objects in me. I’ll also forget that you can use the SAME urine sample to test for HPV, Chlamydia and Gonorrhea
This Article (PDF) states:
1) “HPV infection in men is aubclinical resulting in a large number of asymptomatic carrier” (just like women)
2) Sites swabbed: glans penis/coronal sulcus, penile shaft (prepuce is present), scrotum, perianal area and 2 saline-wetted inserted into the anal canal up to anal verge.
3) Of the 463 men tested, most were under 30 years, of non-hispanic ethnicity, and single.
4) HPV concordance was highest at the anal canal at 9.7%, followed by penile shaft at 95% (guess we know why male HPV testing isn’t available)
In summary,
“Assessment of HPV infection at various anogenital sites in men, high reliability and reproducibility were observed in both the collection and testing procedures for the identi?cation of anogenital type HPV infection in men” .
IMO: Let’s be honest, males refused the genital swabs for STDs and so the urine tests were created. Odds are, men will sooner or later get a urine HPV test leaving our insides to continue to be scraped and bleeding.
http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-cervical-cancer-coalition/discussion/new-hpv-test-for-men/
http://www.mdnews.com/news/2010_06/05849_jun2010_newhpvtestformen.aspx
http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/densmore/Shared%20Documents/BIOL%204320,%205320%20Discussion%20Papers/Student%20Papers%20and%20Presentations/Student%20Presentation%20Paper%20-%20HPV-%20Melody%20Wainscott.pdf
Thought this was interesting as well:
“Question:
Is it true that men can’t be tested for HPV? That there’s no HPV test for men?
Answer:
Yes and no. Although HPV testing for men is used in some research studies, HPV testing is not commonly done by doctors or in clinics. The test is unpleasant for many men – it involves using something akin to a metal nail file to scrape skin cells from a man’s penis – and is not quite as sensitive or specific of a test as the HPV test is for women, as I understand it. As a result, HPV testing for men is not widely offered. Men cannot really know, then, if they carry and HPV strain or not. However, if you think you have genital warts – they can be as small as little pimples or larger and resembling cauliflower – please see your healthcare provider. They can do a biopsy or, if you’d prefer, try one of the standard treatments (such as a topical cream) to see if that works. Also, warts often go away on their own even without treatment. And now, men can get the Gardasil vaccine to help prevent cases of warts.
Debby Herbenick, PhD is a sex researcher and educator.
Taken from Men’s Health
http://blogs.menshealth.com/sex-professor/qa-is-there-really-no-hpv-test-for-men/2010/11/17/
IF someone acknowledges that pap tests are “unpleasant” for many women, we’d told to get over it.
Double standard indeed…
Yep! I find it “unpleasant” (to say the least!), and I’ve been told to grow up and get over it numerous times.
This makes me soooo mad!!!
Women should be allowed to decide for themselves if they want or need an invasive exam. They are uncomfortable and most of the time unnecessary. Doctors should not have the right to hold prectiptions hostage if a woman does not want an exam. I am not on the pills because of this, and I’ve been researching safe and affordable websites to order birth control.
You are 100% correct. Someone doesn’t have a right to do something that isn’t right, anyway- but it is actually illegal. You might be able to bring that point up and have that be the end of it right there. Asking “Are you refusing to prescribe me this?” or threatening them with filing complaints (to medical licensing boards, AMA, etc…) might work, as well. Probably a good idea to do this with someone with you. Obviously someone that supports you, but a man does tend to be a bit more intimidating than a woman, so maybe a boyfriend/husband/close friend/etc… . Saying: “Hey, could you help me out? I don’t want to get anything forced on me & if they’re willing to try one angle, maybe they’d be willing to try another.” Making things apparent that way tends to be helpful talking to a guy, I’ve noticed. I made a bunch of points further up that might be helpful if you’re having a conversation/arguement about this (May 7 was the date).
You might even try recording the conversation (cellphone on record in your pocketbook, perhaps). They make pens & watches & such that do things like that, too. On a related note, I read an article where a guy had on a camera pen like a necklace (guess what profession he was?). Just looked like he was carrying a fancy, metallic pen in a hard-to-lose kind of way. Something to be aware of, as a general theme. Same things apply to Planned Parenthood with that HOPE Program (where they’re supposed to be giving out these pills without all this nonsense). On that, you might try cycling which ones you go to. Keep in mind, sometimes you run into worse than normal there, because there’s no money changing hands (and quality control is less of a concern, potentially). The doctors/nurses/whoever might be the ones with a million complaints about them.