Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog. (click on title or graphic to go to comments)

About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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1,828 Responses to Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

  1. adawells says:

    Oh no! This freely available article suggests that inaccuracies in HPV testing should be backed up with a pap to find those elusive HPV “negative” cervical cancers.


  2. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Interesting, so pathologists think it’s best to have a pap AND HPV test.
    No mention of course, that this is happening in the States and what’s happening…it leads to the MOST over-investigation. It also, causes confusion and has women going around in circles, there are charts on some US sites –
    I’m HPV- but my pap test is abnormal – go to colposcopy/biopsy
    I’m HPV+ but my pap is normal etc.

    They conveniently focus on the super rare cases that “might” not be HPV related, but my reading suggests these very rare cancers are usually missed by pap testing anyway. (false negatives are a concern as well, they can falsely reassure)
    Vested interests will always look for an angle to keep a population of women coming in for more and more testing, having excess biopsies and being over-treated, it’s been a goldmine for them and they see an opportunity for even more profit.
    Some are madly working on the pap test as a screening test for uterine and ovarian cancer, they’re desperate to keep the cash cow in place.

    • bethkz says:

      Many or most women (men too) have been misled about what, precisely, a pap test can or cannot detect. MANY people believe that it will detect ovarian cancer and uterine cancer as well as infections.

      While a pelvic exam can collect a sample to diagnose a vaginal infection, the PAP test will not.

      I know a woman in her 70s who has been diagnosed with stage 2 ovarian cancer. She was very much against seeing doctors, and her (now deceased) husband forbid her to see doctors even when it would have been helpful. Now, with the diagnosis of ovarian cancer, people are blaming her as well as her late husband for “not going to the doctor to get proper checkups, or well-woman exams”. Nonsense. These would not have helped her, and in fact, might have hurt if she’d have waited longer after she became symptomatic because she’d just gotten an “all clear” on a pap test.

      I tell them no, pap testing does not have the ability to check for ovarian cancers, nor does the bimanual exam. Most do not believe me. The few that I’ve convinced I’ve sent to actual medical sites with the description of the pap test and what it does.

      Nonetheless, doctors seem quite happy to have a misled population, who will keep coming in or encouraging others to go in to check to be sure that they do not have ovarian or uterine cancer.

      Testing normal, healthy organs over and over for the possible development of a rare disease or condition is in any other context viewed as abnormal and pathological. For instance, someone who wanted to go in annually and be tested for spleen cancer or kidney cancer (both rare, but more prevalent than cervical cancer) would be or should be referred for psychological evaluation. In the case of a cervix, one who does not have her normal, healthy, asymptomatic cervix checked annually is considered “irresponsible”. What’s the difference?

      You said it right. It’s a huge cash-cow, combined with the opportunity for sexual access to a woman.

    • adawells says:

      Checking through all the risk factors for uterine cancer, I tick only 1 box on that list, and that is that I started my periods at an early age at age 10. So what are they going to do about this? Go around telling 10 year olds they are going to get cancer when they hit middle age? Hysterectomise these women as soon as they have decided they have finished their families? Force them to live for years on the pill or have a coil inserted, when they may want to have children? I tried the pill twice, and quickly developed debilitating allergy type symptoms, when I started the progesterone part of this triphasic pill. I remain convinced that this “intolerance” to progesterone was also a factor in me getting uterine cancer, although the consultant denied it. Would I have liked to be told in my 20’s I was heading for cancer at 52?
      I would like to see better treatments, better diagnoses and better information for patients. Spreading the idea that all cancer can be prevented and is down to naughty, deserving patients not attending screening is deeply upsetting, and keeps the vested interests piled up with cash.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I can’t imagine having periods at the tender age of 10.
        I agree the focus is irrational, I couldn’t believe the publicity about ovarian cancer and nuns, the reasoning, “nuns don’t take the Pill or get pregnant so they should take the Pill to reduce the risk of ovarian cancer”. What?
        I’d fall into that category, should I have been taking the Pill for decades too? Of course, getting the Pill was a MAJOR hurdle when I was in my 20s, you had to agree to an assault to get the Pill. That might be a harsh word, but that’s how it would have felt to me, I knew these invasive exams and screening test had nothing to do with the Pill and were not clinical requirements for the Pill.
        I still cannot see how that differs from asking a man to have his testicles examined and a colonoscopy before he can have Viagra.
        Also, some nuns have been married and have children.
        Here we go again, lumping all women together, making assumptions, focusing on the rare/uncommon cancer rather than the vast majority of women and the individual.

        Also, being on the Pill for decades might not be a walk in the park for some women, some suffer from side effects. Also, ovarian cancer is a nasty cancer, but it’s on the rare/uncommon side.

        Your comments are spot-on, Margaret McCartney wrote an interesting article, “Are we educating women to be afraid?”…Answer IMO, YES.


        People also, fail to see that screening carries risk and that’s why it should be an informed decision and yes, it’s reasonable to decline screening. No, that doesn’t mean we’re at fault if we later get cancer.
        My SIL will often say, “if only Mum had had a colonoscopy, she’d be alive today”….we can’t be sure about that, colonoscopies carry risk, serious risk (perforation of the bowel) and often miss cancers in the ascending colon. You can’t say that screening “would” have saved her life.
        Screening is so often viewed as a no-brainer because that’s the way it’s been presented to us for decades, when the reality is…very few can benefit from cervical screening and the risks of breast screening exceed any benefit. Bowel cancer screening does not reduce all cause mortality. Yet if you read the screening stories you’d be left with a completely different impression.
        Making women feel guilty for not screening has always been part of their strategy, yet when we hear about a screened woman getting cancer….nothing. The dishonesty is breathtaking and disgraceful.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Thank you Elizabeth. The tug of war going between my gyn & us highlights this. We considered writing him a long letter using his own words, but instead we came up with a list of all readily available alternatives for him to choose from. As you know, I need a knee replacement. This is a great reason to enforce my refusal to pap, as last time it locked, and if it did again I’d end up in the ER waiting for emergency surgery. Not good. Here’s what we found.

      The “UDO Test” out of South Africa. $140US. http://www.udotest.com/test/udo-hpv-test or info@udotest.com Free shipping to US, anybody can order, no Rx necessary! They can test for HPV or STD. They have not explained how the test works or what it’s based on. You insert a provided Q-Tip type swab into your vagina as you would a tampon, twirling around and against the sides to gather cells & mucus. You insert the now mucus soaked swab end into a small, narrow specimen bottle, snap the neck off, seal the bottle, and send in a prepaid mailer. This test is tried, true, and far more accurate than pap. The company can test 140 women every 3 hours. Every woman using it has been very pleased.

      We all know about the Delphi Screener. The company has not returned my inquiry. I’ll try again.

      Trovagene. http://www.trovagene.com or info@trovagene.com $149US; billing code 87621, with Rx they’ll bill insurance directly. I didn’t ask if they can process kits directly from cash paying patients w/o an Rx. If HPV+ Trovagene specifies which virus. Since 1999; 95% accuracy vs 53% for pap (sooo, WHY haven’t we been told?). 888-952-7570, 11055 Flintkote Ave, San Diego CA 92121 Trovagene will (if you request like I did) send your doc patient-ready “kits.” Patient p/u kit from doctor’s office. Next morning, the first urination is self-collected. A portion of this is poured into smaller specimen container with a preservative. Patient seals it, places into the provided FedEx pack. Results come within two weeks.

      I advised the doctor’s staff to watch for the kits, saving one for me. Since then I’ve called 2x more wanting to send my husband for p/u. I’ve been placed on hold over 10 min each time. I’ll let you all know what happens when this is resolved next week. I’m looking forward to seeing how this “alternative” that my doctor denied existed works. For once, I feel empowered re my vagina.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Good for you C&M, I think the medical profession struggles with informed and assertive women, I think they just expect us to fall in line, or most of us anyway. No doubt we’re labelled troublemakers or difficult patients.
        I think their greatest fear is the spread of information and trust in self-testing and more women finding out they can’t benefit from pap testing and that routine pelvic and breast exams, TVU, CA125 etc. are not backed by evidence and carry risk.
        Keeping women in the dark, misled and compliant (or under control) is vitally important to their business model.
        I’ll be very interested to hear their response, if the fob off doesn’t work…perhaps, they’ll try the scare-the-woman approach, “self testing is not as reliable”…but then, they’ve probably worked out you’re an informed woman, and that puts them in a quandary.
        Incredible that pap testing could come up when you’re looking at a knee replacement, but then, I shouldn’t be surprised, I’ve heard it all over the years.
        Earache or sprained ankle, you “need” a pap test etc.
        Thanks for the additional info on self-testing options too.
        How did you damage your knee? Is it wear and tear, arthritis or did it start with an injury? Hope it all goes well, a locked knee sounds very painful.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        If anybody wants to reach Client Services at Trovagene, that person is Brittany Gream Also, Trovagene will process specimens directly for $120US cash, no Rx/no doctor needed! My knee was part of my work injury. The job I did was extremely physical, and unfortunately one thing led to another, and again to another. Thankfully, I refused to sign the job description until it was modified to reflect what I actually did. One page became four and that documentation has proved my case.

        Three yrs ago at my last pap, my knee locked while getting off the table. Thank God my husband was there, so we waited carefully and slowly until it decided to cooperate. Right then I decided having another pap was out of the question. Last year, while researching “informed consent” we found this site. Suffice to say, discovering world-wide that we weren’t alone, and countless women shared our concerns & anger, was elucidating. Which of course led us to researching available pap/pelvic alternatives.

        Having a pap isn’t necessary for my knee replacement; it’s just that it came up due again after three years and that I get Estro-Test from this same doctor (I’m still angry that I had to go elsewhere to get testosterone cream while he only gave me topical Estrace). It REALLY pisses us off thinking back that this doctor didn’t care that my high dose narcotic pain meds, and secondarily menopause, killed my desire & ability to climax while causing my vulva to atrophy. Normal he said? BS normal!! Viagra wasn’t invented b/c doctors considered male impotence normal… This doctor admitted three years ago every fact we’ve read here, that paps aren’t accurate, that the bimanual is virtually useless except in skinny young attractive women (trained young to yearly submit as I was), ETC…. My husband spoke to him twice after we notified the office I was pursuing the “alternative.” He whined about having no way to collect specimens. But he can collect pap & normal urine? Thankfully we kept going, and now I’ll do Trovagene. His office is not too happy, but they are cooperating.

        I told Brittany at Trovagene how Finland and The Netherlands eliminated paps in favor of self-screening. She said Trovagene has been concentrating on oncology testing, but that “it’s in the works,” for Trovagene to ramp up capacity and offer a public relations campaign, including news coverage of their HPV tests. Makes me ponder, hopefully, that in the near future US women will have an educated choice in their vaginal healthcare, including full informed consent. It’s a well known fact here, as elsewhere, that women boycott the doctor’s office b/c of forced or coerced vaginal exams. What bugs me, is that so many women prefer being ignorant and marching in naked lockstep to the stirrups every year, whining the whole time in victim chorus, to once more be abused and lied to. “I’ll just trust my doctor,” is what many say, shrugging, when I share this good news. Why? Don’t tell me they get something out of it. I never have.

  3. Ro says:

    It’s been a while since I’ve commented, but I saw something interesting (to say the least) the other day. I turned the tv on as I was going to watch a film. The tv ended up being on one of the news channels and the news anchor along with a medical specialist were talking about vaccines. So of course I decided to listen before starting the film. They were talking about an outbreak of mumps in Canada. The medical specialist said that it was due to people not being vaccinated because vaccines only work when everyone is vaccinated, and people who have had vaccinations for specific diseases/infections can still get those when exposed to them. So basically, vaccines don’t protect us from diseases. If that’s true, then everyone being vaccinated wouldn’t necessarily stop the spread of diseases/infections either. Either way, what she said seemed like a load of hog wash and was very confusing. If anyone could better explain what she was getting at, I would appreciate it.

    Second thing, I’ve heard people cracking jokes about women’s health recently. You’d never hear people crack jokes at migraines or sinus infections, so why is women’s health any different? It’s disgusting and I can’t believe that so-called feminists go as far as to participate in cracking jokes about women’s health. Health is not something to joke about and it’s truly sad.

    Anyway, those were just a few things I wanted to briefly comment about. I hope that all of you have been doing well lately and happy holidays!

    • Alex says:

      If the vaccines aren’t protecting people that do get them, then a group of individuals getting them won’t be protected either. What’s any number times zero?

      There was a documentary called “The Silent Epidemic” (at least that’s what it was called on Youtube) that was interesting. It’s long, but suprisingly wasn’t tedious.

    • Ro, I too find the vaccination related news confusing. There’s an interesting article in the NY Times about Whooping Cough vaccine: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/26/health/study-finds-vaccinated-baboons-can-still-carry-whooping-cough.html?emc=eta1&_r=1&
      Also, in Canada a hockey team had an outbreak of mumps, yet most of them had been vaccinated.

      Happy holidays to you too Ro :)

      • Ro says:

        Sue – The hockey story was the one being referenced in the segment I saw! I’m curious to know more about the actual effectiveness of vaccines. I know that some seem to have actually helped, such as the vaccine for polio, but other than that I can’t think of any that have been proven to be very effective. Perhaps the tetanus, in some instances, but I definitely plan on doing some more research.

      • bethkz says:

        I seem to have a minority opinion here.

        Many vaccines are effective on most – or nearly all of the people who receive them. The people in the society they are in who cannot take the vaccines (too young, allergy to ingredients, sick with other things) end up being (mostly) protected too if a large portion of the population has been vaccinated.

        The smallpox vaccine has been THE MOST successful vaccine. Smallpox is now extinct in the wild, but is being saved in some labs – or so it is believed. Polio vaccinations have all but eradicated polio, but note that it is in the wild and spreading in areas such as west Africa, Pakistan, and Afghanistan where people believe that polio vaccines are a western plot to sterilize their women, according to Muslim clerics. Doctors in India claim that “Enterovirus-68″ that went around on the west coast, primarily, last year really was polio. Maybe. Maybe not. If not, it should probably be included in polio vaccines.

        Some vaccines seem rather silly – vaccinating people unlikely to be exposed to the virus (HPV vaccines for 10 year olds), where the vaccine poses a significant risk in test subjects or in the population for a very rare or not-usually-serious condition. It’s a simple risk/benefit analysis. Tetanus is a rare condition at this point. Some look silly in retrospect. For instance, when I was a child, we were given a “lifetime” chicken pox vaccine. It was very good at keeping it out of the school. However, it was not “lifetime”. Many women, including myself, got it in our 20s or 30s. Women that age are more likely to be pregnant than children are, or older women, and thus many got chicken pox as adults – which is generally more serious than in children, and is devastating if one is pregnant. We should have been offered boosters, but the thinking for a long time was that it was “lifetime”.

        Mumps went around my community 2 years ago. My MMR vaccine from years ago evidently saved me. My husband already having had the mumps got them again (it’s possible). Trust me: Mumps is unpleasant for an adult male.

        For myself, I intend to look into getting booster shots for most of these “common childhood diseases” which I never got (other than chicken pox when I was 29). Many children are not vaccinated, and can spread these diseases. Through me, indirectly, such a disease could come into contact with a frail, elderly person who is susceptible, and could kill them. Risk/benefit analysis fits in here too: I’ve had bad reactions to Rubella, or “3-day measles”. The ongoing reactions from them are far worse than the disease sounds, although before the vaccine was developed, 11,000 people per year died of it in the US. Since 1992, very few have. It is known to cause birth defects especially if the woman gets rubella during her first trimester.

        Notions that vaccines cause autism have been debunked. Dr. Wakefield was working for a law firm planning to file suit, and looking for “expert testimony”. He was published in “The Lancet” – a UK medical journal. The Lancet rescinded the article, in their only instance ever – in their more than 100 years of publication. It was proven to be fraudulent – not just wrong, but outright FRAUD. Thimerisol was removed from most vaccines many years ago. The few that have it contain less mercury than a tuna salad sandwich.

  4. Moo says:

    The chicken pox I suspect were different strains. I never got a vaccine in childhood but I did get chicken pox at age 6. When I was 23 I got chicken pox again. Not shingles, chicken pox.

    I would never 100% believe in a vaccine being effective because I am reading about all the really shoddy research that is out there. Also the research results vary with who provides the funding.

    The immune response for a natural infection should be much better than an immune response from a vaccine. Sorry I cannot quote any study. I have done enough reading to believe it though. Having a healthy immune system is better than any drug out there even for cancer.

  5. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Just wanted to wish everyone a happy Christmas.
    We’ve achieved a lot in 2014, let’s keep up the good work in 2015 and reach many more women.
    See you back here in the New Year.

    • Happy Holidays to you too Elizabeth. I agree a lot has been achieved in 2014. The tipping point keeps tipping our way, and it seems the current state of women’s so called healthcare will eventually be nothing more than a horror story from the past.

      Happy Holidays everyone!

      • adawells says:

        A very happy Christmas and best wishes for a healthy 2015 to everyone on forwomenseyesonly.
        2015 will be the first year in the UK that the HPV vaccinated cohort of women will be getting their first call-up for the pap programme. With 80% vaccination coverage, it will be interesting to see if these women challenge the system and ask what they have been vaccinated for.
        Thank you for everyone’s help on this site.

      • bethkz says:

        It will be even more interesting to see the results of all of these new pap smears for these vaccinated young women.

        Besides aking when they are “invited” for their pap, “Hey! I thought that’s why I had a vaccine 10 years ago to prevent!”, the population statistic on how many of those Paps come back positive or uncertain, requiring more investigation or treatment for cancer will be very interesting. Even given that young women have a huge rate of false-positives, what are the rates of cancer or false positives? If they’re not significantly decreased, then I too, would ask why the vaccine. If it’s higher, I’d want to know immediately.

      • adawells says:

        You are right Beth, it will be very interesting how this pans out, and there is sure to be a lot in the news about it next year. I forgot to mention too, that next year Scotland will raise its pap smear screening age to 25, more than 10 years later than when England did this, to much outrage from the vested interests. I wonder if this is to free up cytology labs to cope with higher HPV reporting rates in vaccinated cohorts?

  6. Alex says:

    I guess it wouldn’t be as effective if they said “Hey, here’s some bullshit for you to listen to.” Not too common for a liar to announce that they are one, especially if it’s not in a dry humor sort of way. I’ve noticed that if someone flatly admits something & they don’t act scared or arrogant or anything other than object-like, it seems to have the same effect on people as staying still did against that T-Rex in the Jurassic Park movie.

  7. NYGirl says:

    I’m not sure if I’m posting to the correct place, but just wanted an outlet to tell my story. To say I am grateful to have found this forum, is an understatement. (sorry if this post is long)

    Just to give you a little background on me – I just turned 30 – I live in a very affluent region of New York (only saying that to give perspective that this misuse of information clearly has no socioeconomic bounds).

    I started going to OBGYN at age 17 to obtain birth control. Before this forum (and Dr. Sherman’s blog), I had NO IDEA it wasn’t medically necessary to do a pelvic exam for a rx for birth control. It’s just what we all did (my friends included). So like clockwork I had to go back every year to get the rx renewed – no exceptions. I remember thinking in my head “this doesn’t make sense”, but figured it was my own anxiety just getting the best of me – I had no idea this shouldn’t be standard practice. My paps were always normal. So normal in fact, that after leaving the office with my rx, I never even thought twice about the results.

    At 23, I broke up with my long-term boyfriend and figured there was no use for birth control and went off it. Therefore, I decided to forgo all OBGYN exams. I did have sex while I was single with multiple partners, almost always with a condom (I’m living in a fantasy world if I lie and say there wasn’t a slip up here and there).

    At 26, I met my now husband. I wanted to get on birth control in a hurry before my insurance ran out. My regular OBGYN office refused to fit me in and said I had to make an appointment 6 months to a year in advance for an annual!!!!!!! I even explained my situation and they did not care. They referred to another office to see if I could try to get an appt there. I called and they said on short notice, I could see the midwife.

    Let me just say, that I know they are so many wonderful midwives and nurse practitioners out there. In fact, I have read a lot of posts in which women prefer these providers as opposed to actual MDs. However, this was not my experience – I had bad experiences with both.

    Anyway, I go in for my annual with the midwife and she’s very nice, but the exam was the most awkward one I had had. I usually require a smaller speculum, but of course the midwife of a different practice wouldn’t know that, and I didn’t speak up. The speculum had a hard time going in and caused some pain, to which she kept apologizing profusely. It was so incredibly awkward. At the time, I found it kind of funny.

    I leave with my rx which I had come there for and didn’t even a second thought about my results. Until she called me a few days later. This is exactly what she said…

    “Hi, your pap came back….very slightly abormal. In fact, I’m almost sure it’s nothing. Uhh…..but can you come back for a colposcopy and possible biopsy?”

    Her tone instantly raised a red flag for me – in fact, she was wavering on the phone, as if she was deciding on the other line what the next course of action would be. I think it is also important to note at this point (at age 26), I have both a Bachelors and Masters degree and consider myself quite educated and intelligent. AND I worked (and still do) in healthcare. AND at the time, I was working for 2 holistic providers. (I now work for 2 outstanding pediatricians).

    I was very confused. This all sounded so strange. I responded me, “well…I…uh….I don’t have insurance anymore.” Her response? “Well maybe you can borrow the money from someone.”

    Now I was pissed. I told her I’d think about it and call her back. I immediately told my mother what happened and we hopped on the internet. We read all about how HPV could cause abnormal paps, but that it almost clears on its own (although she never mentioned HPV to me, I don’t think I was tested for it. I just assumed I had it). I also consulted my sister’s best friend whom is a physician to which she said, “why didn’t they offer you a repeat pap?”.

    I made a decision to forgo the colposcopy. The office then called me again to which I said I would follow up with my REGULAR OBGYN office as soon as my new insurance kicked in.

    I wasn’t delusional, I knew I had probably contracted HPV, which I didn’t find to be a big deal since they say 80% of sexually active women will have it their lifetime. My original plan was to go to another “annual” in 2 years time in hopes that the HPV would be gone.

    Of course, life got in the way, I got engaged, planned a wedding, got married, went on my Honeymoon. It wasn’t until 2 months ago, I had a need to go back to the OBGYN because my period was about 3 weeks late. Of course, my regular obgyn’s office refused to fit me in. So I decided to call up an OBGYN that works for the healthcare group that I work for. They were very accommodating and fit me in within the hour.

    I met with her and explained about my period – she said right off the bat she didn’t even want to the examine me, but wanted to do blood work instead to test the function of my ovaries. WHAT??? NO EXAM??? I could not believe it. She did ask when my last pap was and I said “a few years”, to which she replied, “okay, you’re overdue” and then kept moving with the conversation. She didn’t bring it up again – even when I left the office. When she called me the next day with the results, she said all blood work was normal, and to give it time. She said she didn’t even want to give me meds to induce my period – she wanted my body to regulate on its own. She said, “don’t worry, you will get it.” and the next day, I did.

    My positive experience with my new doctor made me want to go back for my annual. So I made an appt for next Friday. Then I started to freak out. I mean freak out, rock back and forth, walk around like a zombie. I read all these things on the internet saying, “I had a very abnormal pap, I went back overdue a few years later and had full blown cancer.” I was losing my mind. Until I found your forum.

    I feel like I have a wealth of information. And yes while I am anxious to receive the results of that test (the exam itself never bothers me and only takes a minute), I know no one can do to me what I do not allow. Unless they tell me I have full blown cancer and i need to be rushed into surgery, I won’t be having any procedures done (esp since I do not have children yet). Logically, if I contracted HPV some 3+ years ago, and they say it clears on its own, esp in women under 30, I should be fine, but you never know. I am also happy that it SEEMS as though I have a new doctor that isn’t pushy (of course, I’ll find out for sure in due time).

    Again, sorry for the long post – but just wanted to say thank you. I never would’ve had this information otherwise.

  8. Alex says:

    NYGirl- I’ve got a question (and I hope this doesn’t come off as stereotypical or insulting): But does this read as a problem in affluent societies? I know that there can be a bit of a situation where problems are disqualified instead of dissolved in general, but is it seen as “low-class” or “defective” to have a problem with something a doctor does? What I mean is that (in this part of the world) women seem to have a lot of things pushed on them through coercion or deception & they catch all kinds of shit from people when they bring up that they have a problem with any of it- is it this way in the richer circles, too?

    I’ve noticed that there’s typically an argument made that basically amounts to “reality takes a coffee break for doctors.” Obviously, this isn’t true- but it’s often presented that way. It’s bizrre, because even IF something was a means to an end, there could still be a problematic methodology. If it’s a product of someone else’s decision-making, this is an iatrogenic attack. Yet, neither is presented as true. Properties don’t change by designation- just like if a doctor poisoned someone with a needle, it’s still murder. It’s like there’s some issue with compositional thinking- or maybe it’s just acting like that. You know how someone plays stupid so they don’t look cruel?

    Anyway, I’m just wondering if the “alignment” is different on all that in more affluent society. I’d definitely say that it’s hit-or-miss in middle class society.

    • NYGirl says:

      Hi Alex! I believe in affluent societies, it can definitely go either way. For me personally, I was never pressured into an obgyn exam by my parents, school, or anyone else. I went on my own to obtain birth control. When I go to the doctor for any sort of sickness (i.e. Sinus infection), they never ever ask about last pap or anything. I see a lot of women have different experiences with that where their problem is not addressed – I’ve never been in that situation.

      Something else I remembered after I posted was when I went to this new obgyn’s office for the first time, there were postcards on the front desk. The receptionist said “if you’d like to be reminded of an exam, fill one out and we will send it you.” So they give you the option whether you want to receive something. I then thought about it and I never received notices from my last obgyn’s office either reminding me to schedule an annual. Truthfully, the only time I felt pressured was this one call from that weird midwife. I was so floored by it because how can you call me, tell me I’m fine, and then say “but we may want to give you a biopsy anyway”?? What friggin sense does that make? Now, had she called me and said “you need to come in and have this procedure” and was a little more definitive about things, I probably stupidly would’ve done it. I’m so glad I didnt.

      As I said, I work for 2 pediatricians and we have parents that refuse to vaccinate. The doctors I work for definitely do not agree with it, but respect the parents’ decision and do not pressure them. They also do not do any sort of genital or breast exams on the adolescent girls unless they present with an issue. With the boys, I think they may just do a hernia check.

      When I scheduled the exam, I completely beat myself up about how could I be so stupid and not have scheduled on time etc etc…but the truth is, if this were Finland, I wouldn’t have even been tested yet as I just turned 30 a few weeks ago!!!! Then it dawned on me – oh duh, this is exactly why they have those guidelines in place!

      • Moo says:

        If you decide to paps in the future or just HPV tests…. Insist of getting copies of all test results and keeping them yourself.

        Some women are fooled Into thinking they have cancer when they have CIN III which is sometimes called Cancer in situ or precancer. It is just a more severe case (or depending on the technician reading the slides) of HPV infection. Most of the worse HPV cases heal and never progress to Cancer. Sorry I do not have the statistics handy but likely they are somewhere on this forum. However doctors and midwives are always wary that someone might sue them so they push further exams and treatments just in case of that small percent.

  9. Alex says:

    Well, it’s good that you were never pressured by anything (and suprising, since I remember things like this getting harped-on a bit at school). Just to mention: it’s actually illegal for them to back you into getting these tests for birth control. You can just get them if you push a bit (someone had mentioned an idea of telling them that you want it in writing that you are not being prescribed these pills because you wouldn’t let them do an internal exam on you- sounds good, but recording the conversation on a cell phone or something might be good insurance). I believe that it would be called “coercive iatrogenic attack & reproductive endangerment.”

    I never got the idea of that hernia check with boys. If their organs are in their scrotum, they’ll notice. It’s not like it’s not an area that guys don’t pay attention to & encountering an issue when exerting oneself (even casually) would also be noticed.

    That’s actually mentioned on Medical Patient Modesty (it’s a site, but also someone that posts on here- same person). Not for nothing, but someone could always say something like a bone marrow biopsy or some kind of exploratory surgery might be useful in determining if playing sports would be injurous to someone. Of course, doctors typically deride people for having an issue with anything they do, particularly if it’s antagonstic to the person’s alignment (“against the grain”) on a sexual level. It’s a common thing that other people will act like their cheer team, too.
    Honestly, it’s like someone’s ribcage would be considered a disorder if the doctor wants to wrap their hand around that person’s heart.

  10. NYGirl says:

    Alex, I never quite understood the hernia logic either! And I just remembered something. While I never rec’d pressure to have an exam, I *do* remember there always being articles in the teeny magazines I was reading. “What to Expect at the Gyn” – I remember reading that article in MIDDLE SCHOOL. So yeah, the pressure was out there – I just never had it from anyone personally.

    Moo, you’re so right! I never got my “official dx” the first time, but they sent me a letter and I’m 99.9999% sure it said ASCUS. One of my best friends is a clinician and I asked her why this woman would call me, say she’s sure nothing wrong, but wants these tests for virtually no reason. She said, “Easy. To cover her ass.”

    I feel as though I am “low-risk” for HPV now – in a monogamous relationship, I quit smoking years ago, I lost 25 pounds (I’m pretty petite now), I eat better, etc. This exam, as I see it, is more of an interview of a potential OBGYN to deliver my baby if I do ever decide to get pregnant.

    I read all these posts from women – “I was saved from cancer” – and it’s so depressing. What;s worse is the women that are still on the merry go around.

    I read something else which I thought was interesting. If you test + for HPV, you AUTOMATICALLY have “high risk HPV” if it’s not an HPV in which you get warts – is that true? That seems to another scare tactic. I see these girls posting and it says, “my doctor says I have high risk HPV” – but isn’t all HPV high risk? I’d like to get your thoughts on that.

  11. NYGirl says:

    Does anyone have references on the prevalence of cervical cancer in an unscreened society? I know the chances of you getting it are somewhere around .65%, but does it increase without screening? and by how much? Thanks!

  12. Moo says:

    Check the references and education section of this forum. You might want to do some reading.

    As for “high risk HPV” there are several strains of HPV. Some causes warts like foot warts but others cause genital warts and some cause cervical dysplasia. Some HPV tests are divided into either high risk or low risk types with all the results lumped into those two categories. Other tests will have separate results for HPV types 16 and 18 which are considered the most common causes of cervical Cancer (which is rare anyway). None of HPV tests are for cancer itself. A biopsy would have to be done to show Cancer and larger tumors would show up in imaging such as ultrasounds.

    If you want to get pregnant then find out how the doctor feels about pap testing. I am hearing from many women who got Pap tests in early pregnancy (6-8 weeks) and then had miscarriages following. Subsequent ultrasounds show that the fetus stopped growing around the time of the Pap test and vaginal exam. The package insert for the Pap test says do not use brush after 8 weeks pregnant. ( so at 7 1/2 weeks it is ok? I think not). So some doctors will say that women should have Pap tests before getting pregnant but then you run the risk of getting treatment for a bad Pap test and then trouble getting pregnant (the cervix has a function in filtering semen) or damage that results in premature birth. Then you might have a doctor who refuses any patient who will not get paps and all the prenatal testing. I would probably refuse most of the prenatal tests and being induced etc but that is MY choice.

    I am anti medical and I do frequently comment on a forum called women against stirrups. So take what you need from here.

    • NYGirl says:

      I did check out the references, but couldn’t find anything in regards to probability of cervical cancer without any screening.

      I’m 99% sure I won’t be doing any paps during my pregnancy. I’ve read the horror stories. I’m too anxious for that. And what’s the point anyway? I also know your odds of having an abnormal pap skyrocket when pregnant. I can’t believe there are women who get treatment while pregnant.

      • Welcome to the forum NYGirl. In regard to your question re probability of cervical cancer without any screening: Gilbert Welch explains the difference between screening for disease and diagnosis of disease. You are a master’s prepared health professional, so you likely are already familiar with Cochrane. Screening only detects disease – it does not have any effect on the prevalence of disease. A good book on the topic: http://www.amazon.ca/Should-Be-Tested-Cancer-Here%C2%92s/dp/0520248368 There are many articles by Gilbert Welch on this topic.
        The comments section of the post “What doctors don’t want you to know about pap tests/pelvic exams” also offers many good references that were posted during the debate between a gynecologist (and later a medical student) and the women of this forum. You need to click the “older comments” arrow to get to the beginning of the debate: http://forwomenseyesonly.com/2012/11/13/what-doctors-dont-want-you-to-know-about-pap-tests-and-pelvic-exams/

      • Karen says:

        NYgirl, you might want to check this database http://www-dep.iarc.fr/WHOdb/WHOdb.htm and compare it to the screening policies in Europe http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_determinants/genetics/documents/cancer_screening.pdf so you can see that it is just as rare in the countries where they don’t have official screening programmes.

      • NYGirl says:

        Ahhh it won’t open on my iPad, but I’ll check it out on my laptop!! Thanks, Karen!

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        This might of interest to you NYGirl. I wrote about these a couple weeks ago. You may check yourself for HPV via urine or self-collected mucus. http://www.trovagene.com is the test I’m gonna use come this Friday. It does require a doctor’s Rx, and they’ll bill your insurance directly. Or do cash pay for $120. You collect your first AM urine, and send a sample to them in San Diego CA via FedEX.

        You may contact Trovagene’s Client Services at or use Brittany Gream’s direct line at 858-952-7655. She is sending 5 urine self-collect kits to my doctor; I’ll send hubby to retrieve one for me. We finally made it clear to the nurse that my knee would likely lock on the table while in the stirrups. And there’s no way I’m going to have pap if I’m going to need paramedics to take me to the ER for an emergency surgery I’d have no control over at all. That got through loud and clear. The doctor approved Trovagene; and further approved refills for my Rx’s. My husband also pointed out to the nurse that our research found that the pap is only 53% accurate vs 90+ for urine-based antibody tests. He also added that we now feel the pap is dangerous with the scraping and that this test requires no such invasion of my body, no pain…she didn’t say anything in return. This is a good day, and we feel great!

        If you like, NYGirl, you can also order the UDO Test out of South Africa for $149US; and they ship to US for free. http://www.udotest.com Or try the Delphi Screener, which is self-collected cervical mucus test which you also mail in yourself.

        These eliminate the pap entirely. If you should have HPV, the pap will damage your cervix, permanently digging the virus into deeper tissues which your body can’t fight off. This way, if you test HPV negative, you don’t have to pap at all. Imagine the look on your doctor’s face!

        I’ll be reporting how things go.

        Also, I read pro comments re vaccines. I agree vaccines save lives. However, even if they contain a smidgit of thimerosal, that mercury is still a nerve toxin and the body does not easily eliminate it. Particularly bad for a child. Which is why a parent can request mercury-free vaccines. Secondly, in the days of polio, these vaccines were all made in USA. Quality control. Today these come from the cheapest producer, and quality control is a far second. We don’t know what foreign matter these contain. Perhaps that is what is causing autism through the huge amount of vaccinations forced on a child’s virgin immune system. Or juvenile type 1 diabetes via the Hep 1 vaccine that newborns are scheduled to get. Currently, the WHO is under fire for using DPAT vaccinations in Kenya which are deliberately causing sterility in women. I wrote about these too.

        There’s no reason the shots need to hurt so much either. The area could be iced down ahead of time, or a skin chilling and numbing product like Spray & Stretch could be used. There’s no reason an extra step can’t be taken for a child in trying to prevent or limit the paranoia of offices and possible shots.

  13. Alex says:

    NYGirl: How are your chances of getting something going to go up from not getting screening for it? Not to be condescending, but screening for an ailment won’t scare that ailment away.

    Besides, it’s high-risk, low-utility, and an avenue for “selective interpretation” (either there’s a false indication of a problem or they SAY there’s an indication of a problem- then maybe blame it on the test). Plus, there’s at least some potential for getting infected with something or getting injuries that cause problems during pregnancy.

    Not for nothing, but if a woman has a miscarriage because of something that she was “advised” to do, does it seem like that’s something they’re going to be up-front about? It stands to reason that if you don’t want something to leak out, you don’t screw with the “seal” on it.

    I even remember hearing about people having problems from HPV that they normally wouldn’t have, because of small injuries that let it get entrenched in the body. Stands to reason if someone had something on their skin & then got a cut, it would get in & potentially cause problems.

    • NYGirl says:

      Alex, the reason I ask is because every single article states “the risk of getting cervical cancer is .65% DUE TO SCREENING MEASURES.” Therefore, I wanted to calculate my risk if I decide going forward not be screened anymore (pregnant or not). I think I found the answer. One of the articles under the references (from Canada) states that a woman’s risk without screening is 1.5%. I think that makes sense. I do believe in Pap smears save lives – but not in the majority of people. It’s unreal – you google “abnormal pap” and thousands of posts for women come up. How can all of these be such “close calls” for such a rare cancer??

      Frankly, I’ve never understood preventive care. It’s like taking your car to a mechanic – who obviously wants to make money – and saying “here – find something wrong.” My parents only took me to the doctor when I was sick – or if the school mandated a physical – that was it.

      I’m trying to educate myself as best as I can before my appt on Friday. I won’t let them put me on that merry go around. I could almost see the use of “treatment” for lesions if it actually got rid of them!!! But they want to put you in surgery to possibly go through the same ordeal over and over again? That’s insanity to me.

      I also don’t believe this “silent killer” thing. I’ve done the research and CIN III – which is like pre pre pre cancer – has symptoms. My boss – whom is a pediatrician – said as general rule of thumb, if something is wrong, you will know. A lot of those women say “I had strange symptoms but refused to go to the doctor. If I have strange symptoms, I’m going to the doctor. Period. I listen to my body. I’m not saying you can have something wrong and not know – I just think that’s not the majority.

      My boss herself was a victim of overscreening. She just had her 4th child at the age of 45. They gave her a screening test while she was pregnant to determine if the baby was going to be sick. She knew this test was inconclusive and often times inaccurate but they wanted her to have it due to her age. She had it and the results came back that he would be mentally handicapped. She said she cried for weeks. The next step was the amniotic fluid test which is by far more accurate but can lead to a lot of issues so she decided to forgo it. The baby was born perfectly normal (he is the cutest ever!).

      Sue, I bought that book you recommended!

  14. NYGirl says:

    So I know this may not be the forum to post this in – but I have nowhere else to turn besides my husband. And while he is incredibly supportive, I don’t want to dump this all on him.

    I am so scared to go back to the obgyn on Friday. I keep teetering back and forth – one minute I’m calm and collected and the next I’m on the verge of throwing up. I can’t even eat. I am so terrified they are going to tell me I now have CIN3. At that point, I won’t get a decision about treatment – from everything I read, you will get cancer if you have CIN 3.

    All of these worrying is making me regret my sexual history, which sucks, because I love my sexual history! I had a great time, and as I mentioned before – almost always used condoms (although we know they don’t do much to protect you from HPV). And trust me, the number of men I had sex with in the couple of years gap of no paps up until the time I had an abnormal result isn’t huge by ANY means. I was just a regular, single girl embracing my sexuality and playing the field. So why do I feel so bad about it? Why do I feel like all this fearmongering has lead me to a place I am starting to “believe” that I may deserve this? Or that I may deserve it because I never followed up adequately? I just trusted this would all resolve, and now I’m terrified it hasn’t.

    I know I can’t have it both ways – I can’t get the test and them not want to hear the results. I know it’s not fair to be like “I have no problem with testing as long as it’s normal.” That’s being a hypocrite to some extent.

    Basically I’m just scared I will be forced on the merry go round. Have you ladies ever had this?

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Yes. Take your husband with you. Insist that he accompany you and never leave your side. Prepare him to ask questions, and if he likes to take a look over the doctor’s shoulder. Who’s body? Yours. Who’s paying the doctor? You. Who decides who does what during the exam? You. Why? Dr Jeff Abrams was arrested in San Diego CA for taking pictures under the paper tarp they hide behind while doing exams. Also, should you have questions about what was done to you, where things went, have your husband watch from that side. Does the doctor brush his hand through your pubic hair, or just barely on your clitoris?

      Your husband needs to be there, as the nurse is there to protect the doctor. You are outnumbered and nervous. Your husband is your protector, and best now to get him used to this for when you are pregnant. He’ll appreciate much more what women go through. Just be there when he agrees to have a vasectomy. This has helped our relationship; we are 26yrs+ and I’m disabled besides.

      Long ago I didn’t want my husband there. He insisted. Once he watched a doctor decide to do a full exam on me after he peeked out the doorway into the waiting room to check me out. Hubby told me the nurse would try her best to keep him out. She did. However, I meekly said I wanted him with me. The minute the doctor saw hubby walking with me, out came the Rx pad and I got my yeast prescription w/o exam. The nurse said “for some reason he changed his mind about wanting to examine you…” Because the exam was no longer fun time.

      My husband has further commented to me how differently men perform exams. They pinch nipples vs using fingers to gently squeeze areolas. They do rectovaginal exams vs only vaginal. Further, my doctor admitted the bimanual is next to useless, not knowing we were carefully paying attention to his answers. Read my entries here, and how others have been abused. Take your husband. The doctor will be on his/her best behavior.

      Your husband should appreciate your sexual history and hunger, because now he has you all to himself to enjoy for life. You guys will learn how to work through many things by starting here.

      • kleigh us says:

        I don’t think a pelvic is nesery for a yeast infection. My friend went to a walk in clinic and all they did was take a pee sample. They found it that way. A relative thout she had to see a gyn and he did a full pelvic and pap just to diagnose her yeast infection.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        In 1989, Southern California Kaiser Permanente Medical, and others, did not routinely provide yeast treatments over the phone, and office appointments were necessary. Kaiser especially, with their Urgent Care/After Hours Clinics, employed this thinking the patient had no clue what was really wrong so a visit was necessary. Kaiser also calculated next year’s membership rates based on number of “visits” too. So, like with pap testing, secondary monetary concerns really ruled the roost.

        It was not until my husband taught me to stand up for myself and demand automatic yeast cream with antibiotic Rx’s or to make the phone screening nurse do what I wanted regarding this issue, rather than jump through their hoops, did this change. Kaiser also lied to me back then in denying that very expensive brand-Diflucan (fluconazole) tablets existed. Yes, back then doctors often did demand an office visit for yeast infections. I should have called in and said, “duh, I got um, a, bakina-thingy down there and it’s gotta this itchy-scratchy-sore feeling…ya know…?” That’s how I felt I was treated. Even after I told them my age and experience with yeast infections. Freedom of choice, us controlling our bodies, informed consent, is slowly coming our way. We share our experiences to ensure history does not repeat.

    • Alex says:

      Why bother? Personally (and this is just me), I’m of the impression that if you have a problem, you might still not have an assistance from a doctor- like being hungry & STILL not getting any food. A different idea is that you could go over to another country if you were really worried about something or were having some serious symptoms.

      If you were to have results that SAID you had this, then what? You don’t necessarily know if the results are trustable, if the next step will cause problems of its own, if there’ll be complications fixing that… .

      The body of information that is taught seems to be of questionable quality & even if you have doctors that actually care & don’t see the patients as extensions of their territory- you’re not necessarily going to get what you’re looking for. Over in another country, that might be a different story.

      I’m not saying there isn’t the potential to have serious problems, it just seems that plenty of them can & do come from an iatrogenic influence. If you have a problem, maybe you could go to another country over it?

      Not trying to put more on your plate, but there are these kinds of things as concerns & you might get some relief from hearing it voiced (and from not having whatever “merry go round” situations). Especially if you haven’t had any kids yet- seeing as these things can vitiate that particular ability.

    • Karen says:

      NYGirl- “Nature” is not sexist. It does not give a rats’ about the whole patriarchal package of female virginity and purity, the inheritance of private property and so on and there is “nothing” natural about females used as reproductive assets, and treated like communal property. I have a hard time believing monogamous women have a better deal when it comes to the way biology is wired. The whole cancer surveillance thing has started with the nazis, and cancer was a sort of metaphor for the uncontrolled and mutated(prostitutes, beggars, homosexuals) element taking over the collective body just like the cancer cells proliferate out of control and take the body over. HPV is just a co-factor, and we don’t know the exact course and cause of cervical or any cancer. I am your age, and I choose to not have any cervical cancer screening, I mean I don’t have screening for gallbladder or kidney or larynx cancer either, and they are just as rare as cervical cancer- so why should it be my cervix that needs someone looking at its cells under a microscope each year, why not any other body part? Again, nature is not sexist, and being female is not a disease.

      • NYGirl says:

        Karen- thanks for the very interesting reply. I think listening to your body is way more effective. There are a ton of women who get regular Pap smears and then get cancer out of the blue. I hate all this “let’s catch it early” bullshit. I educated my husband and sent him some articles and he is FLOORED. He never had much faith in healthcare as it was, but he can’t believe these women are going through all these treatments on the slight chance they will get cancer down the line.

        I’m so torn. On 1 hand I want the reassurance but the logical side of me says “what reassurance?”. I think it’s totally a cultural thing here. You live in the US? Then this is what you do. It’s like these women are robotics and I don’t want to be one. I even saw some women posting that their gyns told them they didn’t have to come back for years and they got mad!!! “How can I be denied my annual visit? I’m going back in 1 year.” It’s unreal. If an obgyn told me they didn’t have to see me for 5 years, I would leave smoke behind me.

        Karen, so you’ve never been screened? When did you make that decision? Do you live in the US? I’m not trying to be nosey, I’m just very intrigued.

      • adawells says:

        Hi Karen,
        Speaking of Nazis, have you read the book by Robert Proctor The Nazi War on Cancer?


      • Karen says:

        Happy New Year Everyone!
        NYGirl – I am a UK resident, but not a UK citizen. Due to the profession of my parents I grew up travelling a lot, and living a bit here and there, and then you can’t just blindly follow the dogmas of each respective country. For example back “home” people who walk around in winter in summer garb like open toe shoes and little dresses would be taken for psych patients and some member of the public would possibly call an ambulance. In the UK it’s considered chavy, but legions of girls do it every Saturday night, despite the temperature plunging well into the minus regions. You would think something like cold weather has nothing to do with cultural constructs, but of course how people adapt to cold is a matter of culture. Back to all things medical- health policies is just politics. I have never been screened, because I never thought of the state as it is as something benevolent (not into this sort of political fiction). My opinion is that the whole medical screening thing is a sort of neoliberal propaganda tool- the usual rotten package of self-regulation, self-management, with added victim blaming and misogyny. There were tons of other medical “inventions” in the 1930s, and this one has managed to survive because it fits so neatly into certain cultural patterns. I mean it was founded on scientific speculations which were later proven false. There is no definite proof, such as a clinical trial that it works. Yet it is such a money maker, such a convenient propaganda tool, and poor women are so happy about any nonsense that promises to ease their patriarchy-induced body anxiety that they just spread them and don’t question, most feminists are blinded by queer theory, so at the end no-one rocks the boat.

      • Karen says:

        Adawells- I’ve read bits of it on google books, it seems like a very nuanced book, as it is still such a taboo to talk about the achievements of nazi science, and yet of course it needs to be done in order to understand the underlying mechanism of the way medicine was integrated into the political system. I look forward to reading it.

      • adawells says:

        Karen, I borrowed that book called the Nazi War on Cancer by Robert Proctor. It deals mainly with their anti-tobacco stance, but there are a couple of bits mentioning cervical screening, which I reproduce here:

        “In a 1942 article on “cancer campaigns of the future” gynecologist Georg Winter looked forward to a time when propaganda would be combined with mass screening. ( ) Winter predicted that cancer physicians of the future would move through the countryside in autos specially equipped with X-ray and other diagnostic equipment, ferreting out uterine and cervical cancers. He also proposed two annual “cancer awareness months”, perhaps March and September, during which women would be urged to submit to cancer exams. The campaigns would begin with a barrage of publicity-including lectures, radio announcements, and articles in local newspapers-during which time clinics, hospitals, and counseling stations would gear up for the flood of examinations.
        There were many in the German medical community who took this need for early diagnosis quite seriously. A 1939 article in the Viennese medical weekly, by the anti-tobacco misogynist Robert Hofstatter, argued that all German women over the age of thirty should be required to undergo a semi-annual gynecologic cancer exams. ()
        He also claimed that women who failed to submit to such exams should be punished for placing an extra burden on the insurance bureaucracy. Women who refused the exams and chose to “go it alone” were to be awarded only half the normal insurance coverage in the event that they became sick from cancer”.

        It all sounds eerily familiar to the NHS programme. Perhaps there was a “Joseph Goebbels Cervical Cancer Trust” too, to provide maximum propaganda?

      • Karen says:

        Adawells- thank you so much for this!

  15. NYgirl says:

    Cat&Mouse – thanks for the response!! And my obgyn is a female. Personally, I would not use a male obgyn. However, my mom and sister love male obgyns. They used the same obgyn for awhile & cried when he retired! I’ve bad 2 pelvic exams by male urologists – 1 was humiliating and totally useless & I cried after. The 2nd was quick as lightening and he actually needed to examine me to diagnosis my pelvic floor disorder. The first urologist I saw had no clue what he was looking for and diagnosed me with Overactive Bladder!!! I was 23, not 80!!!!

    Alex – I figured I’d get the “what’s the point, then?” response, but it’s totally justified. I’ve calmed down since I posted that and I’m back to thinking more rationally. You’re right – the way the U.S. does things is totally screwed up. So you mean all these posts with young girls under 30 posting about their abnormal paps, colpos, LEEPS, etc. never even would’ve occurred if the U.S. did things like Finland? THAT BLOWS MY MIND.

    • adawells says:

      The Netherlands also does not start pap testing until age 30. Only 5 paps are currently given in a Dutch womans entire lifetime: at age 30, 35, 40, 50 and last one at age 60. There is an article about it on the References and Education section on this website. In 2016 they’ll switch to HPV self testing. In the UK paps start 3 yearly from age 25, then 5 yearly from age 50, so UK women are expected to have about 12-13 in their lifetime assuming all are negative.
      Here in the UK we don’t have obgyns at all. Gyn’s are strictly surgeons in hospitals, who carry out caesarians and hysterectomies etc. Practice nurses and GP’s are the ones who would do pap tests, as gyn’s would really find it beneath them to do it. All this well woman stuff is very much an American cultural thing, tied in with the private healthcare business. To European eyes (with the possible exception of the Germans) reading about the pelvic surveillance of girlhood and womanhood on these boards is eye-popping and jaw dropping.
      So yes, if you were a Dutch or Finn, you’d just be getting your first “invitation” for a pap right now, and wondering what it’s all about.

      • kleigh us says:

        I have also read that dutch doctors respect woman who decide not to have paps.

      • adawells says:

        Yes I think you are right Kleigh. Although the Dutch also have a call and recall system like the UK, I’ve read only about 58% of women accept their invitation, and about one third choose not to screen at all. Their rights are respected. In the UK this test is nearly always presented as mandatory, and doctors earn financial incentives to reach an 80% screening target, which means many of them are not respecting a woman’s right to choose. They bully and coerce women patients into having it, and it is widely disliked, but women are kept in ignorance of any alternatives. In spite of the lower levels of screening in the Netherlands it still has lower cc rates compared to the UK.
        Let’s hope 2015 brings some major changes for the better.

    • Alex says:

      Well, jsut for future reference: It seems that CAT scans/MRIs/ultrasounds are used for diagnosisng things like that. It doesn’t seem that bladder stuff involves testing with pelvic exams (I could be wrong, but I remember hearing a couple of times that a pelvic exam doesn’t factor into a urology situation- a point that comes up with bladder infection consults, at the very least). Try looking up “[whatever problem] diagnosis” when looking into things in general. After that, of course, there’s still the potential for bullshit & you might want to look into things further, but you’d do that in the same way (adding in “low utility,” “not true,” “not needed,” etc…).

      That’s one of the things that’s screwed up about the way things are done in America: someone’s always trying to probe people (in a medical setting, at least). This seems to be MORE true with females, but guys also get a lot of angles thrown at them. Big part of why I’m looking to move to Europe (looking at the way the medical “terrain” is as part of the overall environment).

      Anyway, good to hear that you’re not still as anxious about things.

    • Karen says:

      Also if you have checked the link I sent you with the mortality statistics- in Finland there is about one or two or three deaths every few years from cervical cancer in the under 30s cohort.

    • kleigh us says:

      I’m a 30 year old living in the united States. I have never had a pap smear and avoid all health care unless I am sick. I never understood putting healthy woman thru invasive exams looking for problems to fix just BC we are woman. I personally feel theses exams are violating and perverted.

  16. NYGirl says:

    Alex- for pelvic floor dysfunction, they have to press down on the pelvic floor. PFD is a muscle issue – there’s no MRI or CT scan that will diagnosis it. BUT the first doctor had no idea what he was looking for. After that horrible first exam & going to doctor after doctor, I realized what I had was PFD and found a urologist who specialized in it. It’s like if you as the patient don’t know exactly what’s wrong, they don’t know either.

    Adawells – you made me feel a lot better, thanks! Last night I did an experiment and went through a lot if posts of women who had abnormal paps and there seemed to be a trend: they were all under age 30 when diagnosed with “precancerous cells”. Some women were as young as 16 & 17 getting LEEP procedures!!! How can that be when the cervix isn’t even fully formed yet?? Of course some posts had no age description but an overwhelming number did,band they were all so young.

    What kind of freaks me out is this whole discussion about HPV, and the debate as to whether it goes away, or if it keeps creeping on you. In my “research”, there was only a small number of women who said “I’m monogamous – how did this happen? Was it dormant for all these years?”. Most women didn’t question it which says to me that they are exposed (I.e. Not monogamous). I’m going to ask my doctor tomorrow if she sees married women with HPV and no clue how they got it.

    At the end of the day, it’s my body and I won’t fix something that isn’t broken.

  17. Alex says:

    NYGirl: You know, I just read what you said about those women being like robotics & not wanting to be one- that’s so true, but I think it’s true of the general culture. It’s like the Borg Collective! The whole “techno-demon” thing, where someone is trying to hi-jack someone else’s life is spot-on. Same with trying to excite a sense of superiority by trying to make these other cultures their way. Not a huge Star Trek fan, but the movie First Contact hit it on the head pretty well with that.

    I was reading stuff on Happier Abroad & it references these traits in detail. There’s good articles & a comparison chart that hits A LOT good points, not to sound like an advertiser for foreign travel or anything. One thing, though: some of the guys on their are bitter, woman-bashing wrecks (or are just plain nuts & not in the exaggerated way).

    Don’t know if you’re looking to move, but it seems like things just keep getting worse as far as people trying to live other people’s lives instead of them & I’ve noticed that people that have an urge to “crawl into someone else’s skin” tend to make somewhat literal attempts- if you catch my drift.

    It DOES seem that in other countries, bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness are not seen as immature or defective traits & that thinking compositionally isn’t thought of as stupid. Don’t know if that would ever change in America, since there’s been massive representation of freedom & independant decision-making for decades & it wasn’t functionally done that way. Sure, it’s not 100% of the time, but it doesn’t have to be in order for there to be a problem. I know this is a little bit of a rant, but it’s like someone has a massive amount of rights that they aren’t functionally able to use. With women (and maybe this is just my mother’s generation, I don’t know) it truly seems like they’ll put up with anything other than a backhand or a dinner order.

    P.S.- That reminds me of something that happened in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania in the mid-90s. They ambushed about 59 girls (who were 11 years old at the time) with pelvic exams & it was completely supported administratively (teachers, school board, district & state cops, etc…). It seems to have gone to the level of imposed probing for at least some of them & no one died for it. From generation after generation acting like reality took a coffee break for doctors, it was easy to medically abuse these kids.

    • NYGirl says:

      Alex, this country is medically obsessed. IF I were tell my friends and family that I was thinking of never getting a pap again, they would faint!!!! (With the exception on my husband – he totally gets it). What kind of life is it to live to be in and out of doctors offices for months on end? I read all those posts and my heart just breaks for those women. They often say “when will it end?”. It’s one thing to go through treatment FOR cancer, but I can’t see myself going through that for a slight possibility. And then they get surgery and the paps still come back abnormal. No matter what happens on Friday, my eyes have been opened and I am blown away. There really should be a documentary on all this!!!

      • Alex says:

        A documentary would be potentially useful, the thing is that it would have to be done right. That means actually calling things a medical attack. Right of the bat, it’s almost never referenced as an assaultive situation (not “humiliating,” “degrading,” or any of the other shit people say to get across assaultive properties).

        There’s also a bizarre thing where people act like whatever someone does to someone else of the same gender isn’t an attack or something they could derive gratification from. Not for nothing, but if a woman ran another woman over with her car it would still be an attack, whether she felt any gratification at all- including arousal, which is entirely possible. Some people have warped tastes- there are people that get aroused by lying, stealing, and lighting things on fire. So they might just have a taste for compulsion or get heated up by causing people problems. There’s also the concept that anything that could apply to a straight person can also apply to a homosexual or a bisexual when dealing with someone of the same gender.

        Making things accurate as well as conversational would be important, too. For instance, men tend to have more of an issue with scientific terms (which, oddly enough, seem to have come from the profanity of that time). Phrasing things directly & maybe having an “Of course! Where have you been?” tone about things can make a harsh topic smoother.

        The women say that say “When will it end?” are awaiting a shift in actions from other people & this relies pretty much entirely on luck. I’m of the philosophy that the enemy doesn’t get to decide when they cut the shit or if someone else cuts it for them. Someone doesn’t have to announce themselves as an enemy to work as one. Whatever their intentions & whether or not they’re an “enemy,” the action is what someone is trying to shut down.

        I get how life isn’t just biological activation, it’s also the activities & conditions that make up someone’s situation. That blocking this person’s activities is a destruction of their life, in the activities sense & that it causes them pain, which is a destruction of their life in the condition sense. So? That’s okay. It’s not “sinking down to their level” or “being just like them.” It’s not all the same, it’s just something that can be described the same way. I think that some people (men & women) have a problem with countering someone’s kinetics or “destroying” them in some way, but that’s not a one-size-fits-all type of situation.

        I’ve never understood that sweeping style of thought. It’s like the difference between “lighting things on fire” in the sense of burning a bunch of dead branches for warmth & “lighting things on fire” in the sense of burning someone’s favorite antique jewelry box. Yeah, it’s burning wood & I’m not saying that a situation is not what it consists of- just that there’s different conditions.

      • adawells says:

        I have also thought that there should be a filmed documentary about the lies that are spread about cancer screening. The complaints, fear and anguish caused by these despotic, self-styled do-gooders should be exposed in a documentary. There is so much agony on websites about pap testing, I have thought of creating a giant sculpture and covering it with printouts of all the sad tales of women coerced into undergoing these tests. There must be enough to cover the White House and Houses of Parliament with these stories. It would make a brilliant sculpture and really expose the harms pap testing has caused.

        I do think that once HPV self-testing does become the norm, many more women will come out about how bad paps have been for them, and there will be a tidal wave of complaints about the old system. That’s why they don’t want women to know that HPV self-test kits are available now.

      • NYGirl says:

        Ada – are you in the US? When do you believe self-testing will be available? They said 2016, right?

        I read a post from an older woman the other day and she wrote about all the tests and procedures and surgeries she had due to her abnormal paps. She said if she could go back and do it again, she would’ve just left it alone. She said it caused her life so much unnecessary anguish.

        Another thing I think is interesting is women who panic because the abnormality of the cells are “progressing”. Call me crazy, but if you have HPV, it’s a virus. Think about when you have a cold. You get worse before you get better, no?

        I also find it bizarre that many of the women on these forums posting about cervical cancer have a long list of ailments listed under their signature. It’s like they wear their “diseases” as a badge of armor.

      • adawells says:

        No I’m in the UK. I’ve read that the Netherlands will bring in HPV testing on 1 January 2016. Dutch women can choose whether to attend a doctor or self-test. In the UK they have released no news on when they will switch to HPV testing as the first test, as they are still running tests in various cities of the UK comparing the HPV test with standard paps, but I have seen many news items saying that it will happen, but they don’t say when, because I think they know that women will hold off going until the new test comes out. This is what has happened in Australia, which is switching next year, and loads of women are staying away. I think the UK will also switch in 2016, partly because most countries have broadly the same systems, which are similar.

        In the UK they are developing a urine test to detect HPV, and by all accounts this has been highly accurate. I think this has the advantage of also being a test for males too, because in the UK only girls have been given the HPV vaccine and not boys. The other HPV self tests are for female use only.
        I’ve noticed that HPV tests are now widely available as more women are finding out about them. I know one lady ordered hers online on Monday, got it Tuesday, sent her sample back on Wednesday and had an HPV negative result on Friday. In the UK you can wait up to 3 weeks for a pap appointment, then a further 2 weeks to get the result. Being negative she confidently decided not to go for her pap test as she hated them.
        So 2015 is going to be the year ( I hope) we get the fantastic news that the old pap test will be laid to rest for the vast majority of women.
        I have not tried any of the HPV tests myself, as I don’t have a cervix. Had to have a total hysterectomy last year for endometrial cancer. I was 52, but I’d love to see pap testing abolished before my daughter comes of age.

      • Alex says:

        adawells: That might be a good idea. If you do it, I’d suggest that you be careful not to make the sculpture in a shape that’s going to “ick” people out (speculums, for instance).

        NYGirl: Not to split hairs, but it’s actually “badge of honor” not “armor.” Also, those women that say Jane Goody was a coward because she “was on the brink” and didn’t do anything seem to be self-inflating bitches. They insult her to present their own actions in a favorable light. I don’t really know much about the subject, either- but if she had died in surgery over false results, I bet that they’d shut up. It’s interensting: They got all pissed-off when that girl killed herself after being teased on the internet & there was this whole big thing on bullying all over the place. Yet, if someone has a miscarriage or outright lose their ability to have children, they might very well kill themselves over that. I’d think it’s much more likely than someone killing themselves over being teased a lot or getting beat up at school.

  18. @Karen, I love this: “HPV is just a co-factor, and we don’t know the exact course and cause of cervical or any cancer. I am your age, and I choose to not have any cervical cancer screening, I mean I don’t have screening for gallbladder or kidney or larynx cancer either, and they are just as rare as cervical cancer- so why should it be my cervix that needs someone looking at its cells under a microscope each year, why not any other body part? Again, nature is not sexist, and being female is not a disease.”

    It’s true the exact course and cause of any cancer is not known. It’s sad how women are led to believe their healthy bodies are prone to disease – especially in relation to all things reproductive. Women outlive men, and are less prone to disease, BECAUSE of the extra protection provided by their reproductive organs. Start messing with those organs and/or removing them and women’s life expectancy goes down. For example, from the HERS foundation: “One of the many functions of the uterus and the ovaries is cardiovascular protection. When the uterus is removed, women have a three-times greater incidence of heart disease. When the ovaries are removed, women have a seven-times greater incidence of heart disease” http://www.hersfoundation.com/anatomy/DVDText.pdf

    I also choose not to screen for cervical cancer. Rare is rare and being female is not a disease. Being female helps protect us from disease.

    • NYGirl says:

      Sue, I started reading that book you recommended and I can’t put it down!! He doesn’t mention too much about cervical cancer, but in the end, it’s all the same (in regards to over-detection & over-treatment).

      I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about Jane Goody? Being American, I had no idea who she was until I started doing research on the subject. Does anyone think the fact that she had treatment at such a young age (15!!) contributed to her disease? I also read a lot of posts somewhere from angry women saying she was coward because she knew she was “on the brink” of cancer and did nothing. I’m not trying to get anyone to trash someone who has passed away, just curious as to the thoughts of the highly intelligent women of this forum.

      • Kate (UK) says:

        Hmph. Those angry women tend to be the ignorant ones who truly believe that every woman who’s ever undergone treatment for so-called *pre-cancer* has been saved from certain death. Just a bunch of sheeple, IMHO.
        I’m quite certain that the butchery they call ‘treatment’ could indeed increase your risk of future disease. I’m not even convinced that the scraping during the pap test is as harmless as *they* claim.
        Here in the UK, if your smear sample is classed as inadequate, you’re supposed to wait three months before having a repeat test, because ‘the evidence shows that the epithelium (lining) of the cervix needs at least three months to regenerate after a screening test.’
        Think about that. It takes three months for the skin to recover after being scraped, yet women are having the skin burned or sliced off and are told they can resume sex within 6 weeks! If the cervix is still healing, then of course it’s going to be extremely vulnerable to damage and infections. It’s practically an open wound.

        I don’t know too much about Jade, only that she was first tested at 16 and underwent *preventative treatment* more than once. She said herself that she found these treatments painful and humiliating. So when she got the letter telling her to go for yet another colposcopy, she simply couldn’t face it. Perfectly understandable.
        One could argue that had she not been traumatised at such a tender age, she might still be with us. Whoever pushed her into testing when she was 16 has a lot to answer for. Testing young women is bad medicine. Testing teenagers is pure incompetence.
        Personally, I think the pap test is a cheap, nasty, hopelessly unreliable test which only benefits a tiny minority and creates far too many unwitting victims. The needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few, not the other way around!

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Hi NYGirl
        Welcome to the forum.
        Jade Goody had an adenocarcinoma of the cervix, which is usually missed by pap testing, which was designed to prevent/detect squamous cell carcinoma of the cervix. (the most common form of cc, but still a rare cancer)
        Young women (the very rare cases) tend to get adenocarcinoma and are usually diagnosed after they develop symptoms. Those pap tested tend to get a false negative result which can falsely reassure and lead to delays that might put the woman at a disadvantage = poorer prognosis.
        The long standing evidence says that pap testing does not reduce the incidence of or mortality from cc up to age 30, no country in the world has shown a benefit from pap testing those under 30, BUT young women produce the most false positives, which can lead to excess biopsies and over-treatment, and may damage to the cervix. (leading to cervical incompetence, cervical stenosis and the need for c-sections, cervical cerclage, mean miscarriages, infertility, premature babies etc.)
        This is why the Finns and Dutch do not pap test (or HPV test) women under 30. (the Finnish program started in the 1960s so this is not new evidence)

        Jade Goody was pap tested FAR too early which resulted in a “treatment” IMO, if the system had followed the evidence, the outcome may have been very different. Jade Goody was traumatized by this early “treatment”. (1 in 3 women under 25 WILL produce an “abnormal” pap test, the pap picking up normal changes in the maturing cervix or a transient and harmless infection)
        The youngest case here was 21 years old, and it was an adenocarcinoma. (and even though this woman was used to scare other young women into testing, it was clear she had a false negative pap test and returned to the doctor 6 months later, I assume because she was symptomatic – she was diagnosed at that point) The pap test may have cost her valuable time.
        Yet we continue to misinform/mislead and harm young women in this country. (and older women as well)

        Young Dutch and Finnish women are not tested at all and are simply told to see a doctor with any persistent and unusual symptoms, not for a pap test, but a proper work-up. I think Jade’s feelings and conduct were understandable in the circumstances.

        Of course, the system is so warped they were happy to use Jade Goody to scare young women into pap testing, KNOWING the evidence does NOT support pap testing in young women and usually misses adenocarcinoma. (false negatives) and no doubt, leading to more harm from false negatives and false positives.
        IMO, lying to women is the norm in cancer screening, the program and medical profession knows they could never give women the evidence, too many would decline to test or adopt evidence based testing (not in the best interests of vested interests) so a screening “story” has been created to protect this hugely profitable industry.

      • NYGirl says:

        Hi Elizabeth! I’ve read many of your posts on this forum – as well as other forums – and it’s a pleasure to “meet” you!!

        Like I’ve said in my other posts, I am floored by all the women under 30 who have gone through so many horrible treatments when in other countries, they may not have been tested at all. I was 26 when I had an abnormal pap – for me, I had a boyfriend until age 23 – then from 23 to 26, I was single. So frankly, If my test wasn’t a false positive, it’s not really all that surprising since I had multiple partners until I met husband. I know of 2 other friends that had abnormal paps as well, both single at the time too. So it very much makes sense about the “under 30″ rule. I suppose they figure that by age 30, you are settled down.

      • adawells says:

        I found this obituary by the Telegraph about Jade Goody to reveal a lot about her life.


        This article in the Thaindian also has some details about her experience that I’ve not seen in the British press. Note that she says:“Even before I was sexually active, I had to have pre-cancerous cells removed.”
        With a lot of those girls who are found to have cervical cancer at a very young age, they always deny that they had sex before age 16, and claim that the abnormalities came about before they had sex. Some girls are put on the game by their own families. There was a girl at my school who was regularly put on the game by her mother who made a living from her daughter, being too old for it herself. When the daughter gets cervical cancer, they flatly deny underage sex has ever happened, and say it is the fault of the screening programme for not screening women under age 25, and therefore costing the life of their daughter (and their loss of income).


  19. Hexanchus (male - US) says:


    Based on analysis of the statistical data from the CDC in 2012, the lifetime risk for a woman in the US who does not do pap testing is approx. 0.65%, compared to the lifetime risk with regular testing of 0.45%.

    This is where the game playing starts – the pro screening factions will claim that pap testing reduces the instances of cervical cancer by 1/3, which is true if you are looking at the absolute number of cases.

    What they don’t tell you:
    1.The reality is that it only reduces the lifetime risk by 0.2%.
    2. This is a relatively rare form of cancer.
    3. With frequent testing there is a 30% or higher risk that a false positive will result in unnecessary follow-up testing such as the culposcopy/biopsy the MW wanted you to have.

    Also, pap tests on younger women have a much higher rate of false positives, most of which are due to HPV infections that the body will clear on it’s own. This is the reason some countries don’t even recommend starting testing until age 25 or 30.

    Hope this helps you!


    • Kate (UK) says:

      I actually read that the lifetime risk of this disease is 0.9%, That means that you would need to test 100 women regularly for the majority of their lives in order to potentially help 1. So you’re risking the psychological and physical health of 99 women in order to ‘save’ one person. And with the test producing false negatives as well as false positives, there’s no guarantee of helping anyone in that group. If that individual has a series of false negatives – which happens more often that people realise – it could actually contribute to her death. It’s one hell of a gamble either way, and it’s not a game I want to play.
      Honestly… as a wise woman on this site has said before, using this test to find cancerous cells is like looking for a needle in a haystack with a bent pitchfork!

      I remember reading in my daily newspaper about the introduction of HPV testing. They reported that a pilot study had been conducted by the NHS where smear samples which showed borderline/minor changes (ASCUS) were tested for the presence of HPV. Only 15% showed an HPV infection, the remaining 85% did not. So if they truly believe that HPV is the big bad wolf, then how come there were so many *abnormalities* found among uninfected women?
      The answer is simple: anything that irritates or upsets the natural balance of the skin can
      cause the skin cells to change in response. Sometimes these changes are obvious to the naked eye – sometimes they’re not. Examining the cells at a microscopic level will reveal changes which could have been triggered by any number of things – chemical irritation (condoms, tampons, lubricants etc.), physical damage (bruising from lovemaking for instance), hormonal imbalances… it’s a long list. We know that the younger you are, the more likely you are to get an *abnormal* result due to natural hormonal fluctuations, which is why teenagers should NEVER be tested. Pregnancy causes changes which can give an *abnormal* result, possibly even menopausal changes and contraceptives increase your risk of getting an *abnormal* result. Any imperfection is classed as potentially
      *precancerous* (a nonsense term, IMO) to cover their arses because they have no idea why these changes have occurred.
      Let’s say you bought a new face cream and slapped it on before hopping into bed. There’s something in the cream which irritates your skin and when you wake in the morning your skin looks angry. That’s not *healthy* skin. If you exfoliated your face and sent the sample off to a pathology lab, what’s the likelihood that your sample will be classed as *abnormal*? Well, of course it’s not normal – but it’s a chemical reaction, FFS, not cancer!
      Look back to the 1930’s, when the pap test was created, and look at how ignorant doctors were about the workings of the female body, and it’s hardly surprising that the test is so awful – it was built on very shaky foundations and was never actually proven to work. It’s high time the travesty we call women’s healthcare was dragged out of the dark ages and into the 21st century.

      • NYGirl says:

        Kate, that’s crazy about that ASCUS study! That’s what I had. When I think back on it now, when I had the last test I had just met my now husband, and we were having sex like rabbits! (Sorry TMI). Although I’m sure we abstained from sex at least a day or 2 before, I wouldn’t be surprised if that influenced the test. On the other hand, HPV was probable also since before I met my husband, I was single (although sex was protected 98% of the time – esp since I wasn’t on birth control).

        What freaks me out is the fact that experts don’t know if HPV lays dormant. It scares me to think that if I had it & cleared it, it could creep up again at any time. I’m obviously not exposed to any “new” strains since I’m monogamous.

      • adawells says:

        I noticed on websites now they are saying immuno-suppressant drugs are also a risk factor for cervical cancer. I’ve heard that people taking immuno-suppressant drugs for cancer have a resurgence of past infections such as a lot of verrucae, cold sores etc. Things that your unimpaired immune system would otherwise keep at bay. I don’t think they really know what will happen with HPV, it’s all one big experiment.

    • NYGirl says:

      Hex, that’s VERY helpful, thanks! Does anyone know if the SEER stats account for cancer screening? I assume they don’t because they can’t just assume people will get screened, right? I’ve heard so many conflicting stats (not from people here – more from outside sources) of the lifetime risk of cervical cancer without testing.

      • Kate (UK) says:

        NYGirl, isn’t is strange that the *experts* understand so little about a virus for which a vaccine has been created? Sometimes I wonder whether they don’t just say these things to frighten women into more testing. Women’s healthcare is big business, after all.

        Just FYI, I was also diagnosed as having borderline (ASCUS) changes in my smear sample. I’d developed a cervical erosion and the doctor decided to do a smear while he was examining me. If I knew then what I know now I would NOT have consented. Yet the subsequent colposcopy (long story, I won’t bore you with it) showed NO abnormal cells and the doctor told me the abnormal smear was probably due to the erosion. Rather than feeling pathetically grateful that I didn’t have *cancerous* cells, I was simply pissed off at being railroaded into what was obviously a bad test.

        Anyway, the experts believe that the most common form of cervical cancer takes many years to develop, and is triggered by persistent infection. So ultimately it’s caused by a compromised immune system.
        I also think the rush to treat any abnormalities which are HPV positive could be doing a lot of damage. If a woman’s partner is also carrying the infection, then she will be treated, only to be re-infected by her partner. Worse still, her cervix will be very vulnerable after the surgery which will make it even more difficult for her immune system to tackle the virus. Why else are there so many women being treated over and over only for their condition to worsen?

      • NYGirl says:

        Hi Kate, it makes me feel better that someone else here had an ASCUS result. As I mentioned, I didn’t go back after mine. My result came from an outside midwife (not my usual OBGYN) and her deliverance of my results was highly suspect. I meant to go back to my regular OBGYN within a year or 2 (since I knew if it was HPV, it would likely regress), but I got so busy planning my wedding. I literally just forgot. And now I’ve convinced myself I’ve doomed myself to cancer since that’s what they want us to believe.

        Not sure if you’ve ever seen Mean Girls, but there’s a great scene where the health teacher says “don’t have sex because you will get chlymadia and DIE.” I feel like it’s the same with pap smears. “No Pap smear? You will get cancer and die.”

      • adawells says:

        NYGirl, sounds like the nurse at my practice must have seen Mean Girls: when I told her I did not want a smear test she said “So you want to die, do you?”
        Talk about wicked witch of the west…

        This Christmas I watched Monsters Inc with my kids and I thought it was an allegory of cancer screening. Replace the kids with women and call it PapScreening Inc. “We scare because we care”. A huge money making scare business, which profits from frightening women. Oh, and heaven forbid any woman is touched by the virus, and she is carted off for “treatment” by the CDA, in this case Cancer Detection Agency.
        Has anyone seen the film or is it just those of us with kids?

      • NYGirl says:

        Ada – that’s hysterical about Monsters, Inc. I am an adult 30 year old woman, and have seen Monsters Inc more times than I can count (AND Monsters University).

        I was reading an article on the KevinMD blog and it says no one should even touch you after an abnormal pap until 2 years after you have the initial abnormal result. Every single post I read, these treatments were rendered immiedately, or in some cases, 6 months later. OR in a few posts, I saw women post and said that their doctor preferred to give it time, but that they pushed for the treatment anyway. I have also seen women REQUEST hysterectomys!!!

        At the end of the day, even if the doctor calls me back with bad results, I’m not going to do anything until after I get pregnant – if at all.

  20. Moo says:

    Where are people getting their statistics for cervical Cancer? I found this http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/cancer-info/cancerstats/types/cervix/incidence/uk-cervical-cancer-incidence-statistics
    By age (30- ). 20 per 100,000. Do the math. 20/100,000 x 100%. = 0.02%. The next age group is women in their 80’s which is lower.

    Where does this 0.65% for American women come from? It is not the average woman. It lumps into together all the women with AIDS (very very high percentage of cervical cancer), maybe other cancers, immune disease, sex workers etc. Also Women of African ancestry have higher rates of cervicak cancer and they tend to have different strains of HPV other than types 16 and 18 which the vaccines are for.

    I would also like this forum to discuss the push for pelvic exams because I could have “organ prolapse” which is garbage. I never had a child and nothing is bothering me. I have had some doctors tell me that I was starting a cytocele when I was in my 20’s and that fibroids could be a problem when I know that they did know what they were talking about.

  21. NYGirl says:

    I just got back from my appt and now I’m more anxious than ever. It’s out of my hands. Whatever the result will be what it will be. I feel sick to my stomach. Again, I apologize, I know this is not the forum for it.

    I did ask my doctor (whom I like btw), that if I had HPV & cleared it, could it creep up anytime? She said YES. She said she recently had to tell an elderly women who had been married for 40 years that she had HPV. She said it was a really tough conversation to have. So now I’m even more anxious.

    • Alex says:

      That doesn’t make sense. It’s like saying that someone that had the flu & didn’t die of it is potentially going to have this flu again any time. I think they just truly have a problem with the concept of “cured.” There’s never anything “right with you” to begin with (there’s always “something wrong with you”), but if ever you do have a problem- it’s always permanent.

      I know this is pretty cynical (but that doesn’t mean it’s untrue), but it seems that they just don’t like the idea of the “death of a problem.” Maybe they’re rooting for it, at the very least they get a pay day when there is one (or the impression of one- if it gets pursued). Not to mention all the prestige they tend to get around here- if their profession didn’t have as much applicability, it’d kick the chair out from under that. Nver mind bonuses (financial incentives) that they get from tests & treatments- which they don’t tell people about & probably get a thrill out of the lie.

      Most likely, none of this would ever be announced- at least, not in a way that would be seen as genuine. I’ve noticed that there’s typically a very bland style when people admit to running scams. It’s like a dry sense of humor. Maybe it’s the idea that if they looked scared or actually ran away, people would go after them- same with making all kinds of aggressive faces & hostile expressions. Just musings on the background of the situation.

    • Moo says:

      The HPV could come back at any time. What a bunch of …………!!!!
      There are NO studies that prove that HPV infection can become dormant like other types of viruses. A study could be done if hPV infections were all typed by strain.

      The problem being that pap testing is so inaccurate but it and all biopsies and “treatments” can also spread Hpv infection around. How is HPV contracted in the first place from sexual contact where the virus enters into the epidermal cells through small abrasions caused by sexual activity. What is scraping a cervix with a speculum and a specula or brush? Or pinching off pieces of a cervix with a “sanitized” (not sterilized) sharp instrument during a biopsy?

      As for 40 year old monogamous married women suddenly getting HPV.. Really? Maybe a from a formite: new sex toy, borrowed tampon, contaminated exam room, or they had a low level infection that never really cleared. Why are they any less capable of clearing the virus as a 20 year old in a new relationship? And they are not more likely to develop cancer either.

      I might as well mention that hPV infections are common in pregnant women as their immune system is depressed somewhat and also they are usually put through too many vaginal exams. Really how clean is that transvaginal ultrasound probe? Their Pap tests during and after pregnancy are more about “capturing women” into pap testing than any real risks. The rates of cervical cancer I. Pregnant women is the SAME as all other women. As for the baby getting an HPV throat infection during birth is like maybe a few cases in history EVER and were not apparent until the child was 3 or 4 and could be acquired from abuse more likely than birth. Yes HPV can be in the mouth or throat and dentists check for this but Cancer is still rare. Dentists do not make a huge fuss about looking for it just use a blue light. I might as well mention that dental practices do really make sure all equipment used is sterile and they clean and sanitize surfaces patients come I to contact with. Really does the clinic where women get Pap tests ever do anything But change the paper on the exam couch? How about wetting the unsterile speculum in a dirty sink? Appalling.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        So much truth to what you say. Like I said, women are told to void before an exam. One HPV infected woman with poor handwashing skills could easily contaminate an entire exam room. Then, further imagine her being curious, and touching multiple instruments sitting in the open while waiting for her exam. If large numbers of monogamous women test positive, there’s gonna be an uproar.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      I don’t agree with your doctor.
      I’ve found some/many doctors and nurses have a poor understanding of cancer screening, HPV etc. many have accepted the screening story as the evidence or choose to mislead their patients.
      An on-gyn was telling women on a health forum that adenocarcinoma is not linked to HPV, he admitted his error after we posted some medical journal references. His argument was basically…you should have pap tests whether you have HPV or not, HPV- might get adenocarcinoma…WRONG

      After a LOT of reading over the years, I don’t believe HPV lies dormant, you’re either HPV- or HPV+…and if you’re the former, there is no point having pap testing. Of course, you can always get a new infection from your partner or a new partner, that’s why the Dutch will offer 5 HPV primary or self tests, to guard against a new infection, but those HPV- and no longer sexually active might choose to stop all further HPV testing. (or those confidently monogamous, but that option is rarely offered to women)
      I like the Dutch publication – HPV Today, it’s full of REAL information.
      In your doctor’s example…the elderly woman may have had a new partner or been infected by her husband (who may have been infected by another partner) I don’t believe she had an infection from 40 years ago that suddenly sprang into action.

      By the way, I’m almost 57 and have never had a pap test…and never will…and I don’t have mammograms either. (or any of the harmful nonsense promoted in the States and in a few other countries, I’ve never had a routine pelvic exam, breast exam, rectal/vaginal exam, visual inspection of the genitals, TVU etc.)

      • NYGirl says:

        Elizabeth – I don’t think my doctor is misleading me on purpose (if the information she relayed to me is not correct). To be fair, she said HPV can absolutely clear, BUT to answer my question, yes she has seen women in monogamous relationships test positive for the virus when they haven’t had any new partners in decades. Also, if you Google “Hpv married”, you will pull hundreds of results of women saying they are married for 10, 20, 30 years and have just now tested positive. However, my doctor also told me that HPV testing just started in the States (not sure about anywhere else) in the last couple of years. So theoretically, could these women have had HPV all these years and not known because they weren’t being tested for it? Of course. BUT many of the women that post those messages say they just tested HPV- just last year. So that raises the question: where did it come from?

        Obviously we won’t don’t know peoples’ personal lives; I’m sure infidelity is a factor in some of those cases. But all? There just seems to be so many women saying the same thing that it makes me raise an eyebrow, you know? There seems to be an “trend”, much like there is a “trend” among women 18-29 having all of these unnecessary procedures.

        I am more than happy to lose this argument, btw – lol! The thought of HPV creeping back up on me years from now and regretting a sexual past I absolutely love and am not ashamed of really sucks!

      • adawells says:

        I am also worried for my daughter and all the other girls who have had the HPV jabs at school. Does this mean the virus will affect them in later life. They don’t even know how long the vaccination will protect them for.

      • Moo says:

        Yes a women after decades of marriage will test positive for HPV. The husband claims HE was not unfaithful and then proceeds to divorce her. What if she was also not unfaithful? She got an HPV infection from her doctor’s office from her yearly Pap test and pelvic exam. Is that what doctors do not want you to know?

        Oh so there are no studies that show it can happen? Does not mean that common sense tells you that scraping a spatula around a cervix is not causing “microabrasions” that allow HPV to infect the tissue there? There were some Swedish studies showing that HPV did not spread through the family group so mothers and daughters using the same bathroom so toilet, sink, bathtub, shower. Only putting an object into the vagina like gloved fingers or a speculum is not going to happen in a family setting. Really? Swab down those surfaces in a doctor exam room and try to find the HPV virus. Apparently it has never been done because no one has been successful in recovering HPV from surfaces does not mean that it cannot happen. Apparently people can get HPV infection just from sexual touching, finger to genital contact. It is because the HPV is in the skin cells that are shed. So these are going to be all around any health clinic.

        Do I feel that my repeating all this is getting quite a bit annoying?

        Just like I avoid doctor offices full of sick people spewing out cold and flu viruses, I avoid going there for any reason other than very annoying symptoms or impending death. They do a good job spreading disease.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Glad you again mentioned it. It all depends on how long HPV can survive outside the vagina, and what temp/humidities keep it alive vs killing it. We all know that hepatitis survives long periods outside the body. Let’s say a HPV+ woman comes into clinic. Trace her steps.

        She is told to urinate/defecate etc. If her hand washing skills lack, her hands are contaminated with God knows what. Whatever she touches in the exam room becomes a vector point. Including whatever she touches when she disrobes. Is that clothes hanger ok for the next patient to touch? The exam table also, it’s not wiped down nor are the door handles. Her panties are a veritable bio hazard; what are they touching? Doc comes in, they shake hands…

        At anytime on that paper table liner, she can transfer wet. live virus. The microbiocide in the lube may or may not kill off virus. If a rectovaginal exam is done, more transfer takes place which, in turn may expose the table to more transfer.

        Suffice, my dentist uses 90% alcohol to wipe off the chair, door, his staff changes plastic liners on everything he might touch, or I may touch. Same should be going on in a gynecological office. Too bad nobody in gyne field will put their fingers into this mess, doing the lab tests to see if transfer is possible or not. BC if true, there’s a lot more work they’ll be doing sterilizing exam rooms w/o any increase in pay. Nobody will ever commission a study proving the colpo brush causes miscarriages either.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        NY Girl – I didn’t mean to imply your doctor was trying to mislead you, she might actually believe that’s the case, some/many do.
        I think Moo hit it on the head, I suspect the intrusion into this space exposes us to cross infection/increases the likelihood of infection with trauma to the cervix.

        I also, have found over the decades that women are often mistaken/confused when it comes to relating their own experiences, not their fault, we’ve been misled by the system from the very start. I’ve lost count of the number of women who’ve told me online and in person that they “had” cc or “would” have developed cc…upon closer questioning (when appropriate) you find it was a biopsy or removal of “abnormal” cells, NOT cc. Now about 77% of women here have something “done” to their cervix if they follow our (over-screening and early screening) program…the lifetime risk of cc is 0.65%, LESS than 1%…that means almost all of these women had an excess biopsy or were over-treated.

        Just recently two women were in the papers “saved by a pap test”…we’re seeing more of this type of sensational headline because more women here are delaying pap testing until the HPV testing program starts in 2016. It’s an attempt to scare them back into the over-screening program. It was clear they’d just had biopsies or “abnormal” cells removed, not cervical cancer.
        I think more have worked out they’re testing unnecessarily as well. (HPV-) Certainly in my own circle, more women have purchased a HPV self-testing kit and now finally know where they stand, most GPs then tell them they still “need” pap testing, this is not supported by the evidence. I think many GPs just follow the program, think it’s safer for them, are chasing a target payment or are simply confused about the whole business. It says to me though that the only way to ensure you’re making an informed decision is to do your own research and stand firm in the consult room.
        I think it’s safer/best to follow the evidence, not anecdotal evidence.

        Previously women may not have known they had HPV, women were not routinely tested for HPV before colposcopies, biopsies or even treatments. My younger sister had a cone biopsy after a false positive pap test, a “suspicious” colposcopy and uncertain biopsy, it turned out she had some inflammation probably caused by a new brand of tampons.
        I believe if she’d been tested for HPV, the whole ugly business could have been avoided, she was left with a damaged cervix.

        Of course, for many years now we “could” have tested these women before we did anything else…HPV- women with an abnormal pap test do not need biopsies or anything else. In the States where they do both tests together, it leads to the most confusion and over-investigation, I think they deliberately complicate the matter to keep doctor’s visits, over-screening and over-treatment rates high.

        You can also, be HPV+ and still produce a normal pap test, and equally you can be HPV- and produce an abnormal pap test. False positives are fairly common and caused by lots of things: trauma (e.g. childbirth, sex toys) infection, inflammation (from condoms , tampons, sex toys) hormonal changes (menopause, pregnancy) etc.

        It’s nice to read that at least one woman has enjoyed her sex life, so many find this aspect of life to be a stressful thing. When I was in my 20s and 30s there were VERY few female doctors and women were routinely coerced into unnecessary intimate exams to get the Pill, if you declined, you left with nothing and had to rely on condoms, withdrawal or spermicides. This meant some/many women started to dread the end of their supply of the Pill, some avoided sex, ended relationships, it strained some relationships etc…so often these unnecessary exams and tests lead to even more…like biopsies, unplanned pregnancies, abortions, miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, psych issues etc.

        I avoided the whole ugly scene and studied the Billings Method…but I’ve always felt that what should be a normal and enjoyable part of life is so often marred for women by this obsession with “bikini medicine”, HPV, cc…and the profession encouraged and protected to use coercion, ignore informed consent, and get away with excess. Complaints fell on deaf ears, “do as you’re told, you silly girl” would be the likely response.

        So some women assume they have or had HPV, may not realize they had HPV etc. When women are cut out of the loop or misled, it’s not hard to see why many end up mistaken about their HPV status or survivor status.

        Moo, I actually think there are a couple of studies on cross infection during pap testing and pelvic exams, I seem to recall something in the BMJ dating from about 2012, I’ll see if I can find it. I’ve also, read that some infections/UTIs are caused by pap testing and pelvic exams, especially in older women. (most of whom would be HPV- and not at risk of cc anyway)

      • NYGirl says:

        Hi Elizabeth! I agree you, my doctor might be mislead herself. I’m just not sure if I believe that it doesn’t lay dormant due to what some other women say. Of course, I don’t know these women in person, so who knows.

        There is so much fear mongering around CC. I can give you my own example. The first time I visited this new OBGYN was in Oct. to get bloodwork bc my period was late. I was filling out the paperwork and it asked if anyone in my family had cervical cancer. Without thinking, I checked “yes”, and wrote down that my aunt did at age 60. It wasn’t until I went back to the doctor this past Friday that I began thinking to myself, “did she really have cervical cancer?”. When I saw the doctor, I told her I had been mistaken and it was actually uterine cancer she had. After I left I called my mom to ask her to make sure and she said yes I was right, it was uterine cancer (it was stage 1, tumor removed, my aunt is very healthy now thankfully). So why did I immiedately think it was cervical cancer? Because we were trained, as women, especially American women, to fear CC.

        And you’re so right about women saying they survived cervical cancer when it was just “treatment”. I was reading a blog on the KevinMD blog and it someone left a comment and said “two of my best friends had cervical cancer.” Someone else (probably from this forum lol) said “wow! Two best friends? What are the chances?!”.

        And even if an HPV test is positive, HPV can still clear on its own. Just because you have HPV doesn’t mean it will always lead to cancer. I’ve also been researching natural remedies, just in case. Although I haven’t been exposed to HPV in about 3.5 years since I have been in a monogamous relationship with my now husband.

        What’s the Billings Method?

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        I’m glad it’s mentioned the amount of heavy coercion and heavy handed friendly threats women used to endure in order to obtain The Pill. We used to have to see a doctor for everything, from yeast infections onward. Husbands not allowed or frowned upon. And at one time husbands not allowed into delivery room either. Unfortunately, with the nazi attitudes toward expecting women/couples, I see that getting worse.

        Thank God, due mostly to monetary pressure from insurance companies, and twat products going from Rx to OTC, we have freedoms. The freedom, once won, away from pap’ing will be the best freedom of all.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        HOW did you manage that? I know you’re married…have kids?

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        NY Girl
        The Billings Method is a natural method of contraception. (it’s not the Rhythm Method)
        I did a course at the Catholic Family Planning Clinic, I’m an atheist, but this group were the only ones doing this sort of course back then (1982) most doctors wanted you on the Pill and captured…no deal.
        I worked with a teacher for about 12 months, my husband and I did not break the rules, it worked well for us, but it requires a firm commitment. I had the strongest commitment, I wanted to avoid the medical profession, I did not want to rely on them for something as important as contraception. I could see what was happening to my friends and was determined not to be drawn into that nightmare.


        Using this Method has provided me with a real connection with my body, a deep understanding. It sounds funny, but when access to the Pill eased, I wasn’t interested in pursuing it, the Pill would change my body. (I’d lose the natural cues) I feared that I wouldn’t really know what was going on, you take the Pill and hope it works, but with the BM my body gave me clear signs…so I KNEW what was happening. In the end I wouldn’t have felt as safe/comfortable on the Pill.

        The Method isn’t right for every woman….it takes time, patience and commitment…I sometimes think women don’t give it long enough, I suppose it was about 2 years before I felt confident. (you use condoms during that time, during unsafe days some couple use condoms, others abstain)
        Some women are amazed that at my age I’ve never had a pap test/pelvic exam etc. but when you take away the medical excess and non evidence based screening, many more women would be in my position. (take the Pill off script, scrap non evidence based screening, respect informed consent, get rid of unnecessary exams during pregnancy and childbirth, greater use of midwives etc.)

        I think most medical intrusions on the asymptomatic female body are unnecessary and potentially harmful. No wonder the profession expects women to “get used” to these exams, some women by my age have lost count of the number of pelvic/vaginal exams they’ve had. If they followed our cervical screening program, it would be 26 or more pap tests for a start, probably a re-test or two, and more than three quarters have had a colposcopy/biopsy and many have a “treatment” of some kind. (those numbers are unclear, they wouldn’t want anyone to know about that, but I know we “treat” more than 10 times the number of women than a country like Finland)
        All of this to try and prevent a cancer that affects fewer than 1% of women.
        Note many/most American women have a vaginal exam at every pre-natal appointment, that’s completely unnecessary with a normal pregnancy. Thankfully, some of the excess surrounding the female body is now being addressed, but I’d urge every woman to act as protector of her body. Excess is not in our interests and exposes us to risk.

  22. Cat&Mouse says:

    How many of you have experiences with IUD’s? Are they painful as 10/10 being put in? Any problems with Mirena? On YouTube one can find insertion videos of IUD’s. Looks painful and awful. A uterine sound is used which forcefully dilates the cervix, besides a tenaculum pincer penetrating the cervix and then it is pulled taut during the procedure. Incredible. The same male gynecologist from The Brookside Institute has produced & stars in these. Many of these show the woman/patient/guinea pig squirming or her cervix with speculum moving from intense cramps.

    • NYGirl says:

      C&M, I know plenty of people who have them and love them, including my sister (she has the Mirena). Personally, I would never get one. If that gets stuck, the gyn has to fish it out with a hook and it’s quite easy to puncture the uterus. I’ve actually seen it happen with some of the doctors I work for.

      • kleigh us says:

        Cat and mouse that is awful. Most woman know they have a yeast infection esp if they get it while on a antibiotic. I hate the way medical people think woman don’t know there own bodies. My cousin had a yeast infection a few years ago from a biotic. She went to a walk in clinic and all they did was test her urin and found it that way. Another thing they can charge more for a spec exam and that might also be another reason so many doctors jump to doing them for any problem.

    • kleigh us says:

      I know a woman who was given a pap smear while she went to a gyn for a yeast infection. She even has no cervix anymore. Why in the world would he do a pap on a woman who is suffering from a yeast infection. It should cause a abnormal. All this is about greed.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Way back to the 1980’s, when I relate to this taking place, women weren’t taken for their word that they had a yeast infection even if we’d lived through 10 of them. We’d get a “well how do you know, you aren’t a doctor. Come in for an exam…” The medicine was carefully hoarded away from easy access. Honestly I don’t remember if I received a full pap or just a speculum to produce a view and a place to swab a sample. If I had to guess however, most of the time I received a full exam plus STD testing. For something so obvious. If I chose a tablet cure, they would insert it while I was still in stirrups. If aliens had arrived, men could’ve bragged that we were trained to spread on command.

  23. NYGirl says:

    Karen – thanks for the links!!

    I have a question though. Why does every pro-pap author speak about the “dramatic decline” of cervical cancer after the introduction of cervical cancer screening? How to we account for that? Is it just because there are so many women screened that some are bound to be saved?

    • Hexanchus (male - US) says:

      At one point in time, uterine cancer and cervical cancer were lumped together in the statistics. The separation and removal of uterine cancer from the total is part of the reason, but there are a number of other factors involved that have nothing to do with pap testing. I believe that Elizabeth has posted in the distant past some sources that had some of this info……


    • Kate (UK) says:

      The public at large have been thoroughly brainwashed into believing that this is a great test – the high volume of *abnormalities* and *preventative treatments* only serve to
      enforce the notion that this disease is some kind of plague we all need to fear. Hence,
      whenever a screening Nazi comes out with such sweeping statements about the dramatic decline, no-one thinks to question them. We get a steady stream of scare stories in the media where these so-called experts make all sorts of claims about how *great* a test is and not one of those reporters ever says, ‘prove it. I want to see the evidence.’ Nope, it’s simply swallow and regurgitate the false information.
      Here in the UK, our mass screening program (state interference at it’s worst) began in 1988. The information leaflet we receive claims there has been a 50% reduction in incidence since the program began, which they claim is mostly due to screening, and this
      *fact* is thrown in our face at every opportunity. Yet the incidence rate here began to decline long before the program began – long before the pap test even made it to these shores. There was no proper evaluation, no pilot scheme, before the program began to discover how effective the test really was – the program was rushed in after the government caved in to pressure groups. Politicians love these kind of schemes because *caring* for women wins votes, right?
      In the US, as Hex rightly said, it’s often claimed that before pap testing, CC was the second most common cancer in women, when if you check out the evidence the figures are actually those for uterine cancer, not cancer of the cervix alone.
      Second, this dramatic decline which occurred immediately after the introduction of the test can be observed in figures from other countries where the pap test was not introduced until many years later.
      Thirdly, as I’m sure you’re aware, with an uncommon disease and an unreliable test, you need to get vast numbers to undergo testing in order to see any positive results. Over here, both the breast and cervical screening programs aim to get an 80% compliance rate and go into panic mode when the rates drop. In the US, mass testing didn’t begin until decades after the creation of the pap test, so that tiny number who were having tests in the early days cannot possibly account for the decline subsequently observed. But it makes great sales pitch.
      The fact remains with ANY screening test that you are bound to find genuine disease somewhere along the line, but if the test cannot distinguish between harmless fluctuations and genuine disease, it’s not fit for purpose. What sounds like a great idea simply doesn’t work well in reality.
      It’s like gambling at the casino – there are more losers than winners. The only ones who are guaranteed to benefit are the ones running the casino.
      Worse still, they have dirty tricks up their sleeve to ensure that everyone comes out feeling like a winner when they’ve actually been screwed over. It’s good for business.

      P.S. bear in mind, too that the hysterectomy rate in the USA is incredibly high, and most of these are performed for benign disease. I’ve read stories of women who’ve been on the pap test merry-go-round for years opting for hysterectomy to stop the ride. No doubt this has something to do with the *dramatic* decline!

      • NYGirl says:

        Kate- amazing & informative post. Thanks for schooling me (and I mean that in the best way possible!)

    • Anonymous says:

      Cervical cancer rates have dropped over the years but that fact has been wrongfully attributed to the pap smear and screening programs. For some reason the fact of correlation is not causation is ignored. There have never been any randomized controlled trials to validate the effectiveness of the pap smear and other factors in the decline of cervical cancer are ignored. Those factors are increased awareness of STIs, increased condom usage, decline in smoking, increased hygienic practices, awareness of nutrition, and unfortunately increase in rates of full hysterectomies. The real rates of this cancer and its actual threat to the lives of women are never discussed. Cervical cancer is and has always been a rare cancer. A thousand women would need to be screened for thirty-five years to save one woman from CC. Because of the screening programs the popularity paradox is going on. A rare cancer with an inaccurate test that produces lots of false positives makes the cancer look more prevalent than it really is. Most health-care professionals are not aware of that fact and likely will go their whole careers never seeing a true case of CC. The pap smear was never intended to be a mass screening test.
      Because of the push for screening programs and screening targets informed consent has been ignored. Even if CC was prevalent and a major threat to women’s lives we still have the right to decline screening without coercion. From reading stories on here some health care professionals need to be reminded of that fact.

      • kleigh us says:

        I never agreed with telling woman they “have to”. Have pap smears and the way woman are asked at every doctors appointment when there last pap was? Really its as tho we were suppose to have had one and they want a date.

      • ADM says:

        The anonymous post above was me.

      • NYGirl says:

        ADM – that post was very helpful, thank you! I am reading that book Sue recommended and he talks a lot about “pseudo disease” which is what abnormal paps are essentially conveying; “You may have cancer” BUT “you may not”. He says in a society where there’s pseudo disease, those numbers are always inflated and false.

      • ADM says:

        When a Dr or nurse asks “when was your last pap smear” a good response is “oh you mean do I have pap smears”. They will look confused but it’s a reminder that cancer screening is an informed choice.

      • adawells says:

        ADM you are exactly right. This is one question that makes me absolutely mad. They do not ask you when did you last have a cigarette. They ask you whether or not you smoke. It should be the same with paps. They should ask whether you have decided to opt for screening or not. When I came around from the GA after a hysteroscopy last year, surgeon said: you’ve got no smear tests. No I said. Was too drowsy to say much else, but I hoped he’d spent ages trying to find them on the computer. Maybe he will think to ask a woman next time before embarking on a non-existent search.

  24. Alex says:

    kleigh us: Yeah, the concept of “have to,” negates consent.

    It being phrased as a definite occurance is a point, too. Either as something that’s incongruent (it doesn’t match the situation & I’ve noticed that a lot of people don’t know that term & it seems to jam them up- can’t quite put their finger on what’s wrong with it & can’t “make their case” mentally), or it’s something that presents things as so common that they’d just naturally assume & you’re the freak if this isn’t the case with you.

    • kleigh us says:

      When I told the nurse I never have paps her mouthvdroped open and she was shocked. Itsvlikevtjere was no othervanser and scary it seemed shevjad never herd of a woman who didn’t have a pap date come on there office.

  25. kleigh us says:

    Sorry my phone messed up.

  26. Cat&Mouse says:

    Elizabeth, I had problems becoming pregnant. I was told this was due to my irregularities ovulating. Would, IYHO, The Billings Method have worked for me? This type of planning is offered through our church, but back then I didn’t give it much thought. Another reason, around the time I ovulate, when my discharge thickens I become hornier. My husband also seems to sense this and behaves as if in rut. If you and your husband experienced these, was following The Billings Method more difficult?

    Also, NYGirl & Kleigh’s experiences point out the glaring differences in care received between low & high income serving clinics. Everything I read indicates that clinics serving lower income gals coerce patients into extra unneeded treatments while higher end offices tend to be conservative. Kaiser HMO, where I relate most of my experiences, treated women as if we knew nothing about our bodies and as if we were disease carriers. Also, Dr Jeff Abrams, the San Diego endocrinologist waiting trial reportedly took most of his warped & illegal pictures of genitals at a free clinic. Some of his excuses or reasons were that the cell phone photos would be used at UCSD medical school.

  27. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Hi C&M
    We were told that any woman could use the Method, my cycle was regular as clockwork, but women with irregular periods were told to watch for cues and get to know “their” body. When you can identify your unsafe days/ovulation – you can time intercourse when you’re most likely to conceive.
    It helped one “infertile” class member fairly quickly – she had irregular ovulation/periods, but when she knew what to look for, saw it, had unprotected sex, she got pregnant.
    So if you use the Method and still can’t get pregnant, you know it’s not a timing issue, you might recognize you’re not ovulating or not ovulating very often or, if it’s all happening, but still no pregnancy, you might need medical help.
    A woman who still couldn’t get pregnant, ended up seeing a fertility expert and had surgery to unblock her fallopian tubes. Another found her husband had a low sperm count.

    My classmates used the Method to plan their families, space out pregnancies and to avoid pregnancies when their family was complete.
    There’s a book by Dr. Evelyn Billing that covers all sorts of situations, breast feeding women, those approaching menopause (when periods can start to change) etc.
    It didn’t take long for me to identify my unsafe days and ovulation, the latter sometimes accompanied by a little discomfort. (familiar to many women)

    Ovulation, yes, it can be a time when woman are more interested in sex. You can still have sex at this time, but have to be careful, use condoms. You tend to be more careful when you know an accident might result in a pregnancy. IMO, condoms are reliable if they’re used correctly, if the man/couple are motivated to use them properly.

    Some couples are stricter and don’t have sex at all on unsafe days, especially if they’ve had condoms break in the past. I think condoms got a lot better after the AIDS crisis in the 80s. I recall reading an article about improvements in that area.

    I think condoms are often viewed as unreliable but often/usually it’s because they’re not being used properly. The manufacturers (or schools…someone) should offer a class on the proper use of condoms. I think this is why the man needs to be committed to the Method as well, if he doesn’t care, well, you have a weak link.

    TBPH, I think all teenage girls/women should be taught the Method, it gives you a deep understanding of your body…even if they end up using the Pill or an implant later on.
    It’s a Method that’s shoved into the background, many doctors assume women will mess it up and get pregnant. One GP said, when she heard I was using the BM, “oh no, you’ll get pregnant, I’ll give you the Pill”. On the rare occasions it was mentioned to a GP, they were shocked, even when they knew I’d studied the Method and it had never failed me. (we have the morning after pill now so that’s an option if you have a condom failure)

    I recall one GP saying that men don’t like using condoms. I can’t stand this notion that women should carry the total responsibility of contraception because men don’t like condoms. Is our health and satisfaction somehow less important?
    I’ve known women who’ve suffered awful side effects (and low libido) on the Pill because their partner refused to use condoms. I think part of a loving relationship is sharing the responsibility of contraception, although I accept some women prefer to take charge. I wouldn’t be interested in a man who dumped the responsibility on me (ignoring my feelings, pleasure/happiness, side effects, low libido, medical appointments and all they can mean (medical coercion) etc.) so he could maximize his own pleasure, it smacks of selfishness to me.

    I also, think the medical profession is not happy/comfortable with women managing their own fertility. It’s also, why HPV self-testing has been blocked here for so long.

  28. kleigh us says:

    I think doctors discourage the method BC they want to keep woman tied to doctors.

  29. NYGirl says:

    Just to give you an update – my doctor just called. My results are in – normal pap, HPV +. I’m pretty bummed and scared that my body never cleared it from 3 years ago, but I don’t think I was tested then – I can’t remember. I am relieved it’s a normal pap, though. My doctor said it seems like a low-grade HPV infection if it’s not causing any changes. I told her I’ve been very stressed out lately and she said it’s possible it crept up because of that and may go dormant again. She said she “has this conversation a lot”. She didn’t seem all that concerned. She said we just have to watch it.

    I’m still pretty freaked out. This could ultimately lead to cancer which scares me. I have looked into natural options, and I’m reading AHCC may be a good starting point.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      NYGirl, please reply. Did your doc tell you which strain HPV you have? If not, then why not f/u with your own test? Considering too all the errors pap has. What if you’re false positive? Yesterday my hubby p/u my Trovagene kit from my md. Today I collected my first AM urine, and the test will be FedEx’d to them tomorrow and within two weeks I’ll know. If it’s positive, they’ll know which strain. They can specify these genotypes: 16, 18, 31, 33, 35, 39, 45, 51, 52, 56, 58, 59, 68. Just $120US cash or $140 they bill insurance directly. http://www.trovagene.com or 858-952-7655. You may use this number, or their toll-free, contact Brittany Gream in Client Services. She’s very helpful. All they need is your doctor’s Rx, which goes on the Requisition Form. You can also try UDO Test too, $149US.

      Elizabeth, would you like me to send the site a pic of the collection kit? Truly, this was “quick and easy; painless too!” No stirrups, no degradation, no oozing KY. Ah, wonderful! My husband told me one of the clinic doctors looked very puzzled. Perhaps, like he was seeing the future? What to do with all those unused gloves?

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Yes, good idea, the more information, the better.
        The Delphi Screener is now available through our GPs but it’s being kept very quiet, it’s clearly only for informed women. We can’t be ignored anymore, but they want to control us as well, so they’ll make the test available through GPs, they get the test results, so you’re in the system, part of the program.
        I’m sure if too many women want self-testing though, they’ll produce something to scare the masses, “it might not be as reliable as a sample taken by a physician”. “This is only for women who refuse the more reliable test” etc…they’re shown over and over again that they’re happy to lie to women.
        They’ve been forced to make available this test to informed women, but will try to keep the herd in place for as long as possible.
        Pleased the self-testing went well for you…when you consider what women are put through, when it could be so much easier and safer, it makes you want to weep or scream.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        NYGirl, did you see my post to you? Which strain do you have? High risk? Want to get your own second opinion? Want to see a pic of the Trovagene kit?

        Elizabeth, when reading how you used TBM, I’d have gone to that too. Nobody at church ever discussed Rhythm or TBM as working that well. As for Kaiser, which as said I had, it was extremely frowned upon. An HMO ceding control over something that might bring in more resource consuming members or induce more expenses on The Plan? Or not having any control over our sex organs that might coat The Plan money? Or give up Big Sister supervision? NO!!

        The Pill turned into one big hassle, as one doctor tried to correct one side effect by creating another. Or my body rebelling, retaining more water. Terrible cravings. Either sweets or salts. Hubby cringed when I wanted salty things bc that meant bad PMS but pretty aggressive sex once over. We got tired of it. He volunteered to have a vasectomy. That’s where he got to experience what it’s like to, as he calls it, “be in the rack.” He was naked from waist down, cold room, nurse and doctor staring, touching, cutting, pain, very humbling. To both of us. He was already very sympathetic to what I had been going through.

        We’ve used condoms. The latex ones tend to irritate me, so we prefer polyurethane, which also more “real.” He’s also volunteered to wear them when I’m in terrible pain so I don’t have to douche afterward. I’m blessed, and so is he. We don’t take things for granted.

        I don’t know what the attitude is elsewhere, but in US, there are men, usually (our experiences and this is even discussed in birth control handouts) of certain minority heritages (like minority within a minority), who refuse to have vasectomies because they think it will diminish their manhood. As if they won’t be intact anymore. You mentioned selfish behavior by men. Some men are totally ignorant. This is a learned behavior tolerated by women. These same men usually also totally control the checkbook and lord over other decisions too.

        When hubby p/u the kit, another doctor was there. He was totally perplexed, and didn’t know why a woman wouldn’t want to pap. So hubby explained the advantages, and suggested this is going to be a coming trend in US. This is what perplexes me-and pisses me off. Anywhere we are told not to rub dirt into a wound. However, what does pap do? If you have HPV, and get papped, instantly the brush or spatula digs into and spreads the virus under the tissue. Instant, long-term infection requiring follow up treatment. We have spoken to 15-20 women about this. Only 5 got the message and figured out for themselves how dangerous pap is. How sad.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I’m not surprised no one mentioned TBM to you, I went looking for something reliable that didn’t mean trips to the doctor. I found the book by Dr. Evelyn Billings, read it from cover to cover and then started to make enquiries, finally found the Catholic Family Planning Clinic.

        I’ve read over the years (on the rare occasions the method is mentioned) that it has a high failure rate, but I’m firmly of the view if you’re serious about the method and avoiding an unplanned pregnancy, take a course, stick to the rules, it works well.

        I know a couple of men who refused to have vasectomies, these men also, take no responsibility for contraception, in one case the wife had 5 children, but still had to sort out contraception to see her through to menopause. (I think she has an IUD)
        He views contraception and childcare as his wife’s responsibility. He’s told us all a few times that having sex with a condom is like showering in a raincoat. I don’t think he cares about his wife’s pleasure, sex seems to be all about him, maximizing his pleasure.
        The women all seem so accepting of their husband’s conduct, I don’t get it.

        Yes, some doctors and others are shocked a woman wouldn’t want a pap test or find the test itself unacceptable. (because they find it painful, embarrassing, feel it’s unreliable, have concerns about over-treatment rates, know the cancer is rare etc.)

        I’ve heard a few doctors say that the rectal exam was unacceptable to men so something else had to be found, yet the attitude is completely different with pap testing. We’re expected to just get over any negative feelings or concerns we have about the test. I think they also, knew they could force most women into testing, when they came in for the Pill, were pregnant, needed HRT or just hassling them in the consult room. They know many women will give in to pressure and scare tactics, easy when most women don’t have a clue when it comes to the evidence, that makes it harder to fight back, puts us at a disadvantage in a setting where the doctor has all the power. Men are much harder to control/corner, they know that and so an alternative was fast tracked. I’ve always felt the profession is also, far more respectful of men, possibly because it was a boy’s club until fairly recently, and they could do pretty much anything they liked and get away with it.
        Also, few women made formal complaints, and they knew the Medical Board would be on their side. Thankfully, more women are going straight to the Police these days and so the Medical Board are forced to play catch-up.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        NYGirl, to clarify: Being run down isn’t caused by HPV. HPV if active would cause vag wart, cervical infection or some sort of cervical lesion. If the area of HPV is inside the endocervical canal, it got there compliments of colpobrush poking the virus through the thick layer of protective mucus.

        Men who refuse to carry or share contraceptive responsibility do not deserve to get laid. Would they approve of their daughters being treated same way?

        Elizabeth, was your husband always so caring, willing to share responsibilities or did he open up to the idea once you both discussed things/options? My husband was raised where he was exposed to more than he should have been. However, when we met he was educated, open to discussion (lots of questions too), willing and wanting to participate. To him, sex should be one of the food groups. Something we need daily…

      • NYGirl says:

        C&M – no I don’t know what strain I have. And the pap was normal, not abnormal. Before I said I was very stressed, my doctor said “if you’ve feeling run down, it could’ve resurfaced.” I told her I was feeling very stressed, and she said that’s probably what it is. She said its “low grade” if it makes no cellular changes.

        As far as home kits go, the Udotest one seems awesome (although expensive & you will have to pay for shipping back to South Africa). I’m not sure if I want to do that, but it’s nice that option is out there.

        Have you ladies seen all the new studies of AHCC on HPV? AHCC is shiitake mushroom extract that boosts the immune system. They did successful clinical trials on mice, and now a Texas OBGYN is conducting human trials as we speak. The only downside is that it’s VERY expensive ($60 for a 2-3 week supply).

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        From what I remember, shipping is already included in the pride of UDO Test. Also, if you were positive, why didn’t your doctor order the virus to be typed? If the doctor is saying your HPV infection is low grade, has the typing test already been done? Also, so far nobody can find evidence of HPV latency, or that this virus hangs dormant in the tissues.
        Different types of virus are latent, these linger in the spinal canal or in the nerve pathways close to the skin.
        However, the line that you’re run down so therefore it’s due to low grade HPV is a crock of ****. Sure I’d agree if she was talking about Epstein-Barr virus, herpes, shingles, something along those lines. However, being that your cervix was healthy, and that you had no vaginal warts, no active cervical infection, I have to digress here. Because if you were having active HPV, that is what you’d have, one of those, not just feeling run down etc.
        Feeling run down is cause, if the virus were latent, for you to have, example, a vag wart. However, the vice-versa doesn’t apply.
        If there’s any chance you could get more info, would you please? I’d love to discuss this deeper detail.
        I’m also very eager to find out the results of my own Trovagene test. I’ll be sharing them here.

    • Alex says:

      They said that being stressed-out can make it pop up? That rings some bullshit-bells. Maybe being stressed-out does something else that makes it read whatever way (like “drug fever”).

      Not to be bleak, but you’re going to eventually die at some point. I was talking to a woman this afternoon that had been smoking outside. She’d smoked for 60-something years (since she was a teenage). I said it made a point & she agreed. She’ll die eventually too, but I bet it gets blamed on smoking no matter what it is. For women, I think sometimes their deaths are mentally linked to their anatomy & that gets mentally linked to the distinctly female parts of their anatomy. It seems to go: “Woman = Woman Parts, Woman Death = Death Because of Woman Parts.”

      • NYGirl says:

        Alex – I don’t agree. It’s not a new infection. If boosting your immune systems helps clear HPV, then how come when your immune system is down, it wouldn’t pop back up? It’s the same thing.

        I do agree I’ll die eventually anyway lol. And even if you have HPV, it doesn’t mean it will always lead to cancer.

      • Alex says:

        Well, if your immune system killed it, it wouldn’t come back.

        Do you remember that first X-Men movie? When Wolverine saves Rogue at the end? His power was to heal up real fast, but the wounds he had opened back up even though they were gone. A plot hole a number of people noticed.

  30. kleigh us says:

    I don’t believe all woman with HPV will get cc. It just doesn’t add up.

  31. kleigh us says:

    I also don’t care to know if I have HPV. How does that help woman to know that.

    • Karen says:

      Neither I… and why should I care whether i have it on my cervix, why not in my mouth, larynx, esophagus, anus? (I must have it on my feet actually, sorry if too much TMI. Bloody wart has been there for about 5 years, and I am still alive and kicking.)

  32. kleigh us says:

    I think its a way to keep woman scared and coming back for more paps and treatment.

  33. Karen says:

    “Danielle Watson, 24, given suspended jail term after raising almost £10,000 from false claim she had cervical cancer”


    • Karen says:

      https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?id=256086177789827&story_fbid=346367032095074 “This is an appeal on behalf of a young girl called Danielle Watson. Danielle is 21 years old and has stage 4 cervical cancer and has been given a survival rate of 15%. Danielle was another young girl refused a smear test.”
      It is so much fun to read the comments!

    • Alex says:

      Wait, so SHE gets thrown in jail for racking-up all kinds of cash with fake cancer claims- but a doctor that does that with medical fraud is a life-saving hero?

      I know we mentioned coercive iatrogenic attacks & reproductive endangerment, fraud in the inducement, and general recklessness with regard to medical activities. None of this has a tendancy to strike people as a problme (at least not in the “Anglo” countries, it seems). So they apparently don’t mind someone getting a bunch of cash from a scam in general, it’s just when it’s someone without a medical degree that does it.

      • Karen says:

        Alex you are so spot on. When a doctor does to con money, he is being thorough and caring and the usual bull, and when a young woman does it to con money she is taken to court.

    • Moo says:

      Apparently, from the news article, she was treated for cervicla polyps (which really do not need to be treated only they can cause abnormal bleeding) and that somehow got concocted into stage 4 cervical Cancer. She fraudulently solicited money for herself on the charity of good people. She deserves the conviction.

  34. Karen says:

    I wonder, what would you make out of this story? http://www.tamikaandfriends.org/story/survivor-voice/alissa

    • NYGirl says:

      I’m confused by a lot of it. She had a hysterectomy to remove dysplasia but then it spread anyway? I feel like the lungs may be unrelated but who knows. I feel terrible for her though. I commend her for trying alternate therapies.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Elizabeth, my guess, her lungs, sarcoidosis. If she did have reproductive cancer, there would be many other symptoms by the time it spread to her lungs. She would be terminal. Sarcoid can hit quietly, and go away same way. Many have it w/o knowing.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      She talks about pre-cancer and then leaps into invasive cervical cancer, “a rare form of cc” that’s possibly spread to her lungs.
      A doctor told her they’d watch her pre-cancer, but that she’d need a hysterectomy one day…what?
      CIN 3 women usually have a cone biopsy, the vast majority would not develop actual cc and are in fact being over-treated, but we don’t know which ones will progress so everyone gets treated.
      Most studies say about 12%-20% of CIN 3 women will develop actual cc without treatment. (One study goes as high as 30%)
      I can’t imagine a doctor suggesting a hysterectomy for CIN 3
      They’re not sure if the nodules in her lungs are cancerous, but treat her with radiation and chemo??

      I often find these accounts hard to follow, and this one is no exception.

    • Karen says:

      To me the most surreal bit is that she is healed by eating vegetables and doing yoga or something like that…

    • Moo says:

      It is difficult to know what American or foreign charities are legitimate or not. In Canada all charities that can issue tax receipts are registered with revenue canada and anyone can view a charity’s revenue/tax information including salaries and fund use online.

      This is what is could find for Tamara & Friends, an organization called Cervivor. They push Pap tests.

      I have read different accounts of young women being told to complete their family quickly because they need an hysterectomy due to having “precancer”. It is total bullshit. I know a woman who was apparently diagnosed with cervical cancer in her late 20’s and told she needed a hysterectomy. She refused. 25 years later I look her up on the Internet and she is very much alive and had two beautiful daughters. She did go the all natural route with diet, yoga, etc.

  35. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Elizabeth, was your husband always so caring, willing to share responsibilities or did he open up to the idea once you both discussed things/options?

    C&M, we were great friends before we became a couple, I’d shared my concerns about the medical profession/women’s health/screening, medical coercion & the Pill with my husband, (when he was still a friend) he was appalled as well. Like most men he’d never given it much thought, he had no idea women were being forced into unnecessary intimate exams and elective screening just to get the Pill. (almost all doctors were male in 1980 as well)
    He wondered whether it was a clinical requirement, no, basic research showed that wasn’t the case. The Pill must have lots of side effects to warrant these exams….No.
    There were more concerns back then (blood clots, spotting, mood swings, depression, loss of libido etc) but nothing to warrant these exams. I know the Pill is better now, some women in my circle are happy on the mini-pill. The Pill should have been taken off script many years ago, that reform is being blocked by the medical profession IMO, so they can maintain control over women.

    My husband was aware at the very start that I wouldn’t be subjecting myself to regular assaults to get the Pill, so we’d need to find another way. (he readily understood why I wouldn’t agree to this sort of abuse)
    I would have walked away from any relationship that exposed me to pap test pressure, a protective instinct seemed to surround me, I knew there would be no coping with this sort of abuse, I’d end up traumatized, bitter, resentful, damaged etc., certainly not a happy partner. Many women endured these assaults for years simply to get the Pill and it often didn’t end there…it so often led to day procedure.
    Interesting, but I got the impression this abuse was linked to the Pill. I didn’t hear of women being harassed, “required” or coerced to have routine bimanual pelvic exams otherwise, or even breast exams, certainly not rectal exams, but a request for the Pill usually/often triggered all of these things, I assume because the doctors were male and the patients were young women. I also, noticed the attractive young women so often were the ones who got the works.
    Women were pressured to have pap tests though, whether they were asking for the Pill or not.

    It was frustrating from time to time, especially in the early days when we were still learning the Method, but those feelings were directed at the system and the medical profession, not at each other.

  36. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Did any Australians see the program called, “Save your life tonight” on the ABC last night.
    I was disgusted with their presentation on breast screening, they claimed that about 94% of the audience (women 50+) had a mammogram within the last 2 years (I doubt that very much) and they urged the remaining 6% to “get it done”. Not ONE word about over-diagnosis, over-treatment, risks of screening exceeds any benefit etc.
    With all we know about breast screening, we still have programs that present it simplistically, a no-brainer, just do it. Of course, prostate screening was very different, “the jury is still out, the risks may exceed the benefits, over-diagnosis and over-treatment are a concern”. Oh, you don’t say!
    How about extending the same courtesy to women?
    I’ve sent a letter of complaint…how on earth can they still promote breast screening as a no-brainer with all we know…and have known for over 10 years now?
    I suggested they interview Prof Robin Bell next week, and introduce a bit of balance into the program.

  37. ejm says:

    I’m a student nurse who is currently have a assignment to research into cervical screening for a poster. I am under 25 so have not had a smear test but I would be happy to have a smear test. I am horrified that you are trying to discourage women from a diagnostic test to ensure they do not have any abnormal cells and if there is anything abnormal, it can be investigated and dealt with rather than leaving it allowing it to develop into cancer and that is a lot more horrific experience!
    I have nursed patients with cancer, it is horrific to watch, knowing there is nothing you can do to help them other than make them comfortable to the best of your abilities.
    I understand that a few people have had negative experiences, I’m not saying the medical profession is perfect and mistakes are never made because at the end of the day, everyone is human and no one is perfect. But no one enters the medical profession to hurt people, they do it to help people and make people better.
    Please stop trying to discourage women from undertaking their smear test. The NHS poster campaign is a brilliant idea and I praise the people who designed it. Hopefully it will continue to save more lives!

    • adawells says:

      Ejm you clearly have a lot more homework to do in finding out that there are also a lot of harms attached to smear testing, which you are closing your mind to because it suits you to do this. It is a great pity that human rights are not taught to nurses and medical professionals, because you clearly have no respect for women having a choice in whether or not to participate in screening. Women like you are a danger to the public, because you have no respect for the patients point of view, and are very naive about what this test entails and what the limitations of this test are. I had one forced on me without warning just weeks after childbirth, causing me excruciating pain. I had specifically asked for this not to be done, but my GP wanted her money, so rape me she did. I only wish I could impart to you the pain and distress she caused me. Just to get her bit of money. Has it not crossed your mind why GP’s have to be given financial incentives to carry out smear testing? If they really felt it was beneficial to our health, they would do this test, without the cash incentives. Perhaps one day you might be unfortunate enough to experience something of the medical abuse some of us on this website have endured, and how much we try to help others who have also been through it.
      You really should have read and educated yourself from threads on this website before contributing such hurtful naivety.

    • Karen says:

      As a woman, I am sick of having to constantly justify my right for self-determination, autonomy and privacy. You are not even old enough to have this wretched test, or for the matter have no clue that a screening test does not equal a diagnostic test, and you come here quoting propaganda that I am sure everyone has heard zillion times, and patronising complete strangers. Do you think I give a flying fuck whether AGAIN some stuck up stranger knows it better then me what I should do with my vagina and how? If you think the NHS poster campaign(I assume you mean the crying boy one) is a brilliant one then I can tell you it was designed with focus groups using subjects from ACORN group NMO- the various strata of struggling, uneducated people, single mothers, benefit claimers.

    • Mint says:

      Hi ejm. As per your post, can you share the evidence that shows that the NHS poster campaign has saved lives?

    • Alex says:

      Would you be happy to have a miscarriage from these tests, too? Not for nothing, but some people DO enter the medical profession to hurt people & other’s just don’t give a flying shit as long as they have prestige & a paycheck. Another thing is that it doesn’t have to be what they intended to do in order for it to happen.

      Attack is antithetical to assistance & I doubt the medical profession in some countries has much concern for saving lives, since there are other cancers that are more common that are not harped on as frequently. That’s just one reason, of course. Another is that someone can die from complications that they have from bullshit surgeries. Yet another is that causing a miscarriage is not saving a life in terms of the new life about to come into the world, whether this is while the woman is pregnant or if it’s a time-delayed situation from earlier. One more is the potential suicide that someone might commit over this happening. What’s the point in saving lives if those lives are being screwed up by others? Then again, I presume that a lot of medical theory & practice is designed to do exactly that.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      EJM: 1. Student Nurse. 2. Never had pap. 3. Nursed patients dying of cancer. Answer? 1. Brainwashed. 2. Naive. 3. Scared. Summary: You are the perfect “victim in waiting.”

      Go ahead, experience the pap. Try another office; do it again. Have it done a third time. Learn the differences between treatments & opinions given in offices servicing affluent women vs one that treats the poor. Male practitioner vs female; gay vs straight. Then come back and share your learned wisdom and this new life experience. Please. Although they should all be similar, none will be comparable. Painful? Disturbing, you’ll think, how the same basic procedures could be performed so differently.

      Now, before you write, now that you’ve experienced what we all have suffered through, read again what Adawells, Karen, Alex, Emily, and I have had to say. I especially appreciate calling out the connection to ACORN, and the comment how an extremely painful was forced on a woman at her post-pregnancy o/v, deliberately deceiving and violating a refusal of consent. What do you call that? Legally, professionally, what would your instructors call that? You came ere & ragged on us, now participate again. Disclose the answers. Call this site your special education externship.

      In all your nursing education, have you ever been told to use a foreign object to forcefully scrape dirt off a tender part of your body causing a bleeding wound? What do you think the result would be? Massive infection? What do your instructors legally call treating without informed consent?

      If you think what we’re doing is a disservice to women, after you experience a pap, think again. Ending sexual slavery and prejudice, equal pay/equal rights for women, sanitary treatment theaters, respecting the patient’s wishes, preventing children’s pain during procedures, dignity, do you think doctors woke up one day and said, “hey, let’s do the right thing.”

      It all began with groups of concerned victims meeting, bringing dirt & shame out of darkness into light of day to be examined and weighted as good or bad. That’s what we’re doing. Do you think we want women, daughters, to have cancer? What we want is respect, dignity, fully informed consent, and the right treatment only when necessary. These things come together when we stop pap. Replace it with non-invasive, painless, private, cost effective, accurate, patient-friendly, passive HPV testing that encourages participation. Junk the subjective, replace with objective.

      I want to know if you feel the same way after you’ve had a pap. When you can say you’re truly one of us. Better yet, see if the instructors will make this a class project.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      If the medical profession had put as much time, energy and money into creating better testing as they have on bullying women into unwanted penetration, there would be no need for all these appalling ‘awareness’ campaigns.
      It’s quite obvious from your post that you don’t know a damn thing about this test, you only believe the propaganda that you’ve been told.
      Most of us here are much older, wiser, and better informed on the harsh realities of ‘women’s healthcare’ than you are. Coming along to a pro-choice site and spewing out the same tired old lines that have been printed in wimmen’s magazines for donkeys years will only earn our contempt. It’s a common belief among critical thinkers that the people who are the most enthusiastic about screening are the least knowledgeable – you’ve just proven that theory to be correct. The fact that you are a member of the medical profession makes your ignorance even more worrisome.

      • Kate (UK) says:

        Oh, one more thing ejm (not that you’re going to come back to the discussion or even bother reading anything on this site – you’re little more that a troll really, aren’t you?)
        If a patient came up to you and asked why her 22 year-old daughter can’t have a smear test yet, would you be able to give her a proper answer? Or would you merely fob her off with the ‘it does more harm than good in the under 25’s’ line?
        Do you have any idea why the screening age was raised? Probably not.
        Think about it. You’re not supposed to have a test at the age of 24 because it could be harmful. Yet at the age of 25 the same test suddenly vitally important? Huh?

        What, do we get a visit from the Twat fairy on our 25th birthday, who waves her magic wand and changes our womb so that a test which was potentially harmful only a day before becomes not only completely harmless but necessary to our survival?
        What utter tosh. A test which can cause harm, either directly of from subsequent medical interventions, can cause harm at any age.
        Sheesh, there’s so much wrong with this test it’s hard to know where to start.

      • Karen says:

        The “Twat Fairy” keeps me cracking up… yeah right, good name for the arbitrary cut off point within the whole neoliberal risk management paradigm.

      • Emily says:

        omg kate “twat fairy” that’s hilarious! Well if what you say about 25 is true then I should be getting a visit from the…hehe…twat fairy in 2 days. Do you think she’ll leave a gilded speculum under my pillow?? Or maybe a wonderful fairytale about Princess Papscreen and her magical test that banishes the evil Cancer Goblin but the scheming witches ;) will try to tell the fair ladies it’s dangerous and ineffective and princess pap really will just stab them with her steel dagger to lead the fair ladies astray so the cancer goblin can get them….OH NO! lmao I could seriously imagine that as a satirical mock fairytale

      • kleigh us says:

        From my experience most health care workers are ignorant about screening. They are only taught good things and how to get woman to screen. I know the facts now and the next medical personnel that tries to scold me for not having paps or tells me its “bad” for not doing so. Or acts like I’m a child for not screening is gonna get yelled at and I hope to make the feel like a fool.

  38. ADM says:

    We are not trying to discourage women from having pap tests. We are advocating for informed consent without fear tactics and coercion such as “I have nursed patients with cancer, it is horrific to watch…”. In other words saying if you don’t have paps you will get cancer and die. It is not that black and white. Cervical cancer is rare and the pap test is inaccurate. Read this article:http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/11/informed-consent-missing-pap-smears-cervical-cancer-screening.html

    • Emily says:

      Well said ADM! I know for a fact none of you here would ever give me any advice that would cause harm to me and have only provided me education and comfort in the fact that I don’t HAVE to get this test. Also if there was some time and research there could be a different test that wouldn’t be so terrifying and degrading. When men rejected the prostate exam where a dr shoved fingers into THEIR bodies they quickly came up with something else and NEVER ONCE have I seen a picture with a sobbing widow saying “my husband missed his prostate test, Now I miss my husband.” NEVER. Everything reg prostate exams says “talk with you doctor so you can go over the risks and benefits and decide if it is right for you.” Why is it that with women we only get “undress and spread your legs. You’re overdue for your pap.” and heaven forbid we should refuse or we get coerced bullied and shamed and told we’re going to die from cancer and it will be all our fault. THOSE are the problems with the pap and why I utterly refuse to get one. EJM if you and every other dr out there cares so much about women and want to spare us the horrors of cancer MAKE THE TEST BETTER and watch how quickly/positively women respond. Don’t blame the wonderful caring ladies here for discouraging paps. Blame this broken system and the people in charge of it for every woman who has been deceived, coerced, bullied, used and traumatized to keep this godawful program in place. ….and while youre at it give it a waive goodbye because slowly but surely women are starting to wake up and realize that many parts of the womens healthcare system are rotten to the core. Please for all of us be a good dr to your patients. Don’t just focus on their body parts focus on everything inside too. I know you just want to care for your patients and make them feel better but trust me when I say it doesn’t make a person feel better if doing something to help them physically creates an even worse mental problem and devastates them emotionally (like paps, pelvics, colpos, biopsies etc sometimes do)Always ask yourself “Is this really good for my patient or is it just what I’ve been taught?” and even more important ASK THEM too!

      • bethkz says:

        Another problem, aside from this being an unreliable test which would NEVER be approved if it were to come out today, is that the constant “reminders” that we are “overdue for our pap” and lectures about how important they are are done IN LIEU of actual medical diagnosis or treatment for the medical problem for which we made the appointment.

        This delays care by the time it takes for at least 3 appointments. One for the lecture. One for the pap. Possibly a third to discuss the pap or repeat the pap if the results were abnormal. Possibly a fourth or more to be referred to a specialist for further (more invasive) testing. By this time, the actual medical problem has either gone away or become much worse. That can lead to more morbidity, more expensive and extensive treatment, more disability, more pain and suffering. It leads to the actual medical care being given in emergency rooms that could have been done far more cost effectively at the doctor’s office. Those follow-on tests, being surgical in nature, run their own set of risks of anaesthesia, bleeding, infection, and false-positives, leading to more invasive procedures, culminating with a hysterectomy.

        77% of women who have their pap tests on schedule between ages 18-65 have at least one of these “cancer scares” and referrals. That’s quite a lot for something that will kill 1 in 40,000 of us! This is being done in lieu of diagnosing and treating the actual condition. Heart conditions are notoriously missed, and heart disease kills 1 in 5. Suicide may result from these “cancer scares”, and suicide kills 1 in 121 of us.

        Instead, the visit was hijacked for this rare cancer. By rare, I mean in the US in 2013, according to the CDC, it was 1:40,000 for women to die of CC. That’s about half the odds of dying in a plane crash on a single flight.

      • ADM says:

        Ischaemic heart disease is the leading cause of death in the world according to the WHO website. Cancer isn’t in the top 10 leading causes of death. There is heart disease in my family and yet I have never had prevention discussed with me by a Dr. Dying from heart disease is also a horrible death. Yet I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve been asked about paps.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      This has always been my concern, that women are urged to just screen, and scolded and/or judged if they don’t. Many women are forced or misled into screening.
      If women were given real information and informed consent/choice was respected, then we could make an informed decision about screening.
      That has never happened in women’s cancer screening, in fact, the evidence is closely guarded, they know it wouldn’t stand up to close inspection, that’s why we get a screening story or scary threats. I believe both cervical and breast cancer screening operate outside the law and proper ethical standards.

      I don’t tell women what to do, the pro-screeners, the programs and the medical profession do that, I direct them to the evidence and leave them to make their own decision. I respect women as competent and independent adults. I’m perhaps, more strident with young women because the risks with screening are so high for no benefit. Not one country has shown a benefit pap testing those under 30, not one, but young women produce the most false positives which can lead to some ugly and harmful places. Damage to the cervix can mean premature babies, miscarriages, the need for c-sections, cervical cerclage, psych issues etc. So that early pap test can have a huge negative impact on a woman’s life.

      I’ve seen so many women distressed and harmed by this program over the years, listened to the program deceive women, violate our legal rights, see others profit from our pain…that’s motivated me to keep reading…and more recently, posting. I’ve been researching this subject for over 30 years, let me tell you EJM, you will never SEE the evidence until you open your mind. Your post tells me you haven’t made it to first base, I hope you do, for the sake of your health and your future patients.
      Imagine a rare cancer, always rare, the lifetime risk is LESS than 1% (0.65%)…and a screening program that means 77% of screened women will end up having something “done” to their cervix. Does that seem right to you?
      Not to me…and now we know that only about 5% of women can benefit from pap testing, those aged 30 to 60 and HPV+…and women can even test themselves for HPV, easily and reliably, no need for speculum exams. So why isn’t this option being offered to every woman? If we were serious about further reducing deaths from this rare cancer AND also, protecting the vast majority of women who are not at risk, we wouldn’t be wasting a fortune on population pap testing, over-screening (including early screening) and allowing high colposcopy/over-treatment/excess biopsy rates, we’d be following the evidence and putting women first.
      I’ve found most nurses (and doctors) have a fairly poor understanding of the evidence, many have just accepted the screening story, and that’s what it is, a “story”.

      • kleigh us says:

        I can’t believe so many woman are judged about not screening. It is a very private part of are bodies that no one has a right to decide what is done to it. It seems every one else knows what’s best for woman and that’s wrong.

      • ADM says:

        You’re right that most medical professionals accept the screening story. They are not educated they are trained and because of that they perpetuate the screening story without ever looking at the true statistics. This would be an opportunity for ejm to write a balanced truthful perspective on CC and paps and informed consent. But sadly we’ve probably been dismissed as uneducated women who will die of cancer because of our decisions. Although I wonder how a truthful perspective on CC would be received by her professors.

  39. kleigh us says:

    Sadly hear in the united States woman are told they “have to” have paps when they turn 21 or if they want birth control. There’s no respect for a woman’s right to choose. Woman have to fight with doctors and be harassed . young girls like the nurse in the UK sadly would already have been told to get paps. BTW that’s why so many young girls hear are pushed into keep. I don’t trust health care workers any more. After being yelled at and scolded for not having paps when I was only 24. The nurse was ignorant and only knew the propaganda she learned in school to get woman to screen.

  40. Alex says:

    I just thought of something. I mentioned a few times beofre about how people tend to presume honesty & accuracy from other people (not in a deduced way, but in a knee-jerk “they look at their watch & tell you a time that you figure the watch actually says” kind of way). That this is what someone’s trying to use when they present things as a “fixed situation” (like when they say what they “will be doing” or what someone is “going to be having”), as if there exists no capacity for reality to unfurl any other way.

    Well, the thought I just had is about how when arguing with people sometimes they make a real point of showing that they are not convinced. I figure that’s why. That someone is looking at them seeming unconvinced & they start thinking that they themselves are wrong.

    I think another thing is related to that: the frequent belief that the “good guy” always wins. I figure people believe that this applies to arguments as well, but I think I already mentioned this before.

    Just thought I’d share that, since it’s something that I think doctors do A LOT. Their unsurety (or the image of it) is used as a counter-argument.

  41. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    On the News tonight:
    “GOLD Coast researchers have cured a type of cancer in mice and hope to start human trials within a year.
    The Griffith University scientists found the experimental drug alisertib rid mice of cancers of the cervix, skin, head and neck caused by the human papillomavirus.
    While a vaccine for cervical cancer is available, it’s still the third biggest killer of women and survival rates are very low.
    The researchers hope the drug may one day become a viable alternative to chemotherapy and radiation treatment.

    Professor Nigel McMillan, who has been working with the University of Queensland’s Professor Brian Gabrielli, said it was an exciting breakthrough in his long mission to find a cure for cervical cancer.”

    The third biggest killer of women? They must mean cancers only women can get, uterine usually has a better prognosis so I suppose they mean breast, ovarian and cervical.
    It still amazes me the money that goes into this rare cancer – research, screening, treatments, vaccinations, awareness campaigns etc. while other cancers and diseases that affect far more people are under-funded or largely ignored. I suppose the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
    Vested interests must have freaked out and then realized screening and treatments were safe,(together with their profits) prevention is better than cure, I can hear them now.

  42. Elizabeth (Aust) says:


    The drug has been used in human trials in the States with some success with blood and solid tumours.

    • Moo says:

      If you google the drug name alisertab there are some interesting results. It is being investigated for many types of cancers. One american study excludes people with cervicla cancer in situ. Does that tell you something? The drug also has side effects and if approved will be expensive (the reserach and patent have to be paid for). It will likley be deemed that LEEP or hysterectomy is cheaper and “less harmful” to women than curing the cancer.

      A big lie that no one has a cure for cancer. It is all about a cure that will make someone money and keeping the customers rolling in.

  43. adawells says:

    I’ve stopped using Google. They are giving Jo’s Cervical Trust free advertising. I always wondered why they are always top of the list on every Google page, and checked out their Annual Report to see how much they were paying Google for these ads. Google has given them free advertising.

  44. Alex says:

    Jsut saw something interesting that you all might want to look up: Dad Posts Meddling Note Sent Home by Teacher over Packed Lunch on Yahoo News. Also, the fifth comment down (Patricia) is interesting. It would be a lot to go back & forth typing, but you can open the comments without signing in or anything.

  45. Victoria says:

    Patronising and trivial marketing campaign has started in the UK: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cervical-cancer-charity-urges-women-to-post-messy-lipstick-selfies-to-promote-smear-tests-10001046.html

    Am I really supposed to sit here and say, “Hmm… well I’ve had letters in the post and not responded, but since I’ve seen women posting pictures of themselves I’ve decided it’s a good idea to have a smear test”?

    Even in the article above they admit it’s the 3rd most common gynae cancer and 12th most common amongst women. In other words: where is the pressure to be vigilant about the other cancers that you’re admitting are a bigger risk?

    The article goes on to mention to campaign to get the age lowered to 16 in the UK. They tell the sad stories and leave it at that – absolutely no mention of the scientific evidence of the harms caused.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      I think Jo’s trust is an absolute disgrace – their mission seems to be to get as many young women up on that couch as possible, the younger the better.
      Testing from the age of 16 would of course lead to huge numbers of healthy young women being treated for so-called ‘pre-cancer’, many of them would believe they’re been saved from the jaws of death and class themselves as *survivors* and thus generate more supporters for Jo’s Trust. Kerching!
      I really can’t believe that these people are so ignorant that they know nothing about the damage testing causes. If they are, then they’re in no position to be giving out *information* to the public. If it’s all about generating more support for their self-righteous charity, that’s little more than a scam.
      I find these kind of campaigns extremely insulting, and I’m sure I’m not alone. It’s just a marketing campaign for the charity.
      Same with the Coppafeel (urgh! Just the name makes me cringe) promoting breast exams to young woman. Ignoring the evidence to keep the crusade going.
      Medicine is supposed to be science, not religion!

    • Victoria says:

      This was my husband’s point so credit to him: are all these women pressuring their friends into smear tests entirely squeaky clean themselves? Have they never gone on a sunbed, consume minimal alcohol, have a healthy diet, get enough exercise, never get sun burned etc…

      • kleigh us says:

        I for one have never herd of doctors explaining what a pap screens for to woman bf they do them much less explain false positives or any risks. None of the woman besides myself even know what paps screen for they all just think its for infections. I blame doctors. BTW even nurses seem ignorant about what paps screen for or only know the positive side. The medical community has done a job of hiding things from woman . and I’m suppose to just let them prob my v every year and tayeartrust these pole. No thank you.

    • adawells says:

      I think this last week of January is supposed to be cc awareness week, so at least we’ve been spared those idiots running around in their pink knickers in the snow this year. I think they are desperately targeting the 25-30 age group. 1 in 3 doesn’t bother with it, and if they can’t indoctrinate them young, they aren’t going to have much luck in the future, when nearly everyone’s had the HPV jab anyway, and the older sheep are leaving the programme. They are a huge embarrassment to most British women.

  46. Victoria says:

    Something else used in this latest UK campaign is really useless statistics. “3rd most common cause of death in under-35s.” Sounds frightening on the surface, but think for a second:

    – How many women under 35 are dying? It will be a small proportion of the total population in that age range compared to say, the 70-80 year-olds.

    – Being the 3rd most common cause means nothing in itself. It doesn’t mean it’s a rampant condition. Two examples (completely made up but just done for effect):

    1st – heart disease 1000 deaths
    2nd – car accident 800 deaths
    3rd – cervical cancer 600 deaths
    4th – stroke 50 deaths


    1st – heart disease 1000 deaths
    2nd – car accident 800 deaths
    3rd – cervical cancer 55 deaths
    4th – stroke 50 deaths

    In both situations, CC comes third so the “statistic” is technically true. As you can see, though, the number of deaths could still be anything as long as it sits in 3rd place. Useless “information” to fear-monger that glosses over actual risk. This might be the case in other western countries as well, but in the UK every so often they’ll talk about how poor people’s maths skills are (and that article by Margaret McCartney showed even doctors can’t handle stats properly). They can throw out numbers and only a handful apparently will go, “Erm… that could be telling me everything or nothing!”

    • adawells says:

      It is a cause for concern that these so called “charities” in the UK are targeting young women under 35 in their campaigns of unbalanced information. I’ve seen some daft women post online that they think breast self-examination should be taught in schools. It is totally wrong for these self-styled body police squads to go around the country worrying young people about cancer, and asking for funds. One such group is the Boobettes,


      who campaign for breast cancer in young women. They have joined up with Coppafeel, and generally get attention by parading with huge inflatable tits everywhere they go. Somehow this is supposed to make the young woman facing a mastectomy feel good about herself. There is a group at my local university, and one of the things they do is go pub crawling. I seem to have read somewhere that binge drinking may be a factor for breast cancer…
      Every time I read that a charity is also for the families and friends of those affected by the disease, I automatically think, that they don’t actually have quite enough sufferers of the disease itself to demand such a charity, so they have to rake in those who “are deeply affected that they know someone who has cancer, or who have had “a scare”.
      Everyone, who knows someone with cancer, seems to go on a campaign, and a lot of it is self-publicity, as the recent post about Daniella Weston showed. These groups are spreading fear, and asking for money from young people. It’s wrong.

      • Moo says:

        Ask anyone who has had cancer or had a family member if these cancer charities ever helped them when they were sick. A few do. I remember the Canadian Cancer society loaned a neighbour a wheelchair. Other charities and churches organized rides for medical appointments. One charity that collected human hair (i was actually harrassed for having long hair and not cutting it. People saying i was selfish) to make wigs for children with hair loss refused to give them a free wig for their 8 yr old daughter because their family income was too high. The recently divorced mother was unemployed, the father was unemployed and they were living with the grandparents of the child. This charity had millions in assets and claimed to pay some Asian wig factory $3000 each per wig.

        Doctors follow pre-setup protocols or use algorithms for diagnosing. Their practice and training does not allow thinking outside the box. This is why i suffered for years with lung problems and headaches, skin rashes because i worked in a chemical plant. It was clear to me that chemicals affected my body but doctors would put me through batteries of tests and then claim there was “nothing wrong with me”. I had to argue that they really did not know what was wrong with me or did not care. None seemed to want to listen to my concerns about my occupation or even ask. I stopped working in that profession and i am much better.

        Same for women who do not want breast or pelvic exams. It is on the protocol so they want to do it because they get paid for it. It might have nothing to do with an individual’s problems but they insist. This is also why we hear about women who have cancer symptoms that do not get diagnosed. I also found out that fetal cells resemble cancer cells on a pap. I have seen the slide photos in a cytology text book. They look the same and it is rare that even an experienced cytologist would know the differenct with the time they take. To err on the safe side theynwould say it was all cancer. That type of cancer is so rare that likely many women who are pregnant or had early miscarriages were misdiagnosed. I think this might be true of women in their forties who have early miscarriages. They expect their period is late because they are having irregular cycles approaching menopause. They might have spotting due to hormonal effects. They are also likely to have fibroids or polyps. The embryo might lose its hold and all the tissue gets stuck in the cervix causing pain. However women are told that since they were “never pregnant” that it must be cancer. They get a endometrial biopsy or hysterectomy etc.

        I wonder why my questions about what women should expect to experience premenopause is so difficult to find. I think that doctors have never really studied it and are just bad at diagnosing real cancer at that stage in life. They Would rather every women was hormonally controlled from puberty to death. Then remove all the woman’s reproductive organs if there is any problem. I wonder if i would have any luck at the medical library since they internet seems to have very little information. One of the truthful places for info is the HERS foundation.

  47. Alex says:

    I just learned a new term “fait accompli.” It means something that has already happened or been decided before those affected hear about it. The idea is that they are just left with the situation, whatever it is. Sound familiar? It certainly rings a bell with the situation of people things on the schedule extrapersonally.

    By-the-way: “Extrapersonal” is another good term that didn’t hit me before. Sorry- if I’d thought of it, I’d have said it long before. Either way, it’s a good term for someone making their own decisions with someone else’s body & it certainly sounds lawyer-like for an added intimidation factor. Oddly enough, I just got a book on lawyers & how they argue (it’s called “The Tools of Argument”). I’ll let you know if I come across anything good, but I figured I’d mention the name so someone’s not spinning in the wind waiting for me or relying on me not missing anything.

  48. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    I reported a male GP last year after he made some shocking comments on a medical forum, “he holds the script for the Pill until women have a pap test” and, “it’s my experience they’ll go to great lengths to avoid pap testing, even using a few clinics” etc. (not exact quotes, but something similar)
    The Medical Board have started an investigation into this GP as a result of my complaint, they say this doctor’s practice (of requiring a pap test for the Pill) may not be clinically required and may affect the obtaining of proper consent. (not an exact quote, but something similar)

    Dr Morton from the AMA has made similar statements, not the holding onto a script bit, but he ALWAYS links the Pill with pap testing and also, breast checks? The latter has not been recommended for many years here and, again, it has nothing to do with the Pill.
    I’ve been trying to find the article where an Australian male doctor, another spokesmen for the AMA, said something like, “I doubt many doctors would prescribe the Pill without a current pap test on file”…
    I can’t find it now, does anyone recall seeing it?
    I wanted to make the point to the Medical Board’s investigating officer that these attitudes and conduct are encouraged by the AMA, in fact, I’d say they assume doctors are “requiring” pap testing for the Pill. Their comments may mislead women and GPs.
    I also, plan to report a surgery in Leederville, WA that have on their website that women on the Pill “need” pap testing.
    Women accept this conduct so often, but if you make a complaint, it would be hard for the Medical Board not to get involved, you cannot hold the Pill to force women into pap testing, no one holds Viagra until men have a colonoscopy or prostate check, do they? Time to get tough with this outrageous abuse of our legal rights and bodies.

  49. Emily says:

    Woot! Go Liz! The less drs are mislead means less women being mislead. Who knows? By the time (if ever) I want the pill it may go from “get in the stirrups and spread your legs if you want the pill” TO “It may be a good idea to get a pap for A,B,C,D etc but it could also lead to E,F,G,H etc but it’s not required so take a moment to think and let us know.” I know, I know I’m being a crazy dreamer here but in the words of the late great John Lennon…IMAGINE

    • Alex says:

      You DO realize that it’s illegal for them to withhold the pill if you won’t let them probe you, right? I’d imagine it wouldn’t be too hard to force them, you’d just have to take extra steps (which you shouldn’t have to take & wouldn’t be very well-advised to trust someone that’s trying to back you into something like that). Maybe they’d like to put in writing that they want to purvey something that’s high-risk & low-utility in general? They might like to outright say “I’m disregardive of the risks & ramifications for you, but I’m still a useful source of information & a trustable source of treatment.” They might like to say “Bitch, let me get in there- my choice.”

      I get real tired of all the little bullshit arguments. So many people act like reality takes a coffee break for people of a certain profession & it doesn’t. It’s like their argument amounts to “What happens is not what occurs.” There’s a very common blindspot when it comes to things getting strange in this country & it’s pretty common with other physical danger, as well. I guess with some people, the only reality they notice is a financial cost.

      Properties don’t change by designation, just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle it’s still murder. It doesn’t matter if it’s designated a medical procedure & categorized as a non-antagonistic situation. Nobody argues that what those Catholic priests was okay because they were male- yet there’s almost always an argument that if medical personnel get pushy with someone of the same gender, it’s not an attack. Interestingly, if they got mugged by someone of the same gender, it wouldn’t be a non-issue. There’d be no discussion of whether or not there was any gratification of any kind for the mugger, either.

  50. Mary says:

    Hey Elizabeth and other Aussies, Peter Gotzsche is coming to Australia this month for a lecture tour!


  51. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Hi Mary
    Hope your studies are going well.
    Your daughter is lucky to have an informed mother.
    Gee, they kept that quiet! I think lots of people would not welcome a visit from Peter Gotzsche, particularly the breast screening zealots. I see he’s talking about psychotropic drugs and big pharma, their lobby is not as strong as the women’s cancer screening programs, not by miles, they’d probably try and have him banned if he was going to “threaten” the programs.
    I’ll try and make his lecture, I’m in awe of his integrity and bravery, he’s in my medical hall of fame, a prominent place too.

  52. Si says:

    Thanks Mary, I just booked my tickets for Brisbane :)

  53. June Gardner says:

    I was tricked into a radical hysterectomy by an unscrupulous female doctor who deliberately fabricated I had something wrong and sold me out to greedy gynaecologists who forced me into a totally unnecessary radical hysterectomy by fabricating I had cancer. After they bullied and butchered my female organs, they smugly said all the removed organs were healthy,

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      So sorry, June, so many women have been harmed by the medical profession.
      My younger sister lost some of her healthy cervix, and the gynecologist also, proudly told her she was fine, the tissue removed was completely normal.
      False positive pap test, false positive colposcopy and a cone biopsy that removed some of her healthy cervix, this is a fairly common procedure here. My sister was told for every 50 cone biopsies, only 1 turns out to the necessary.
      How common is this procedure? How many women are left with health or emotional issues or/and have obstetric problems? There is virtually no research into this procedure, for obvious reasons, no one cares, no one wants to know, and they certainly don’t want us to know, there would be no funding for that sort of research.
      We have ONE study (as far as I know) on colposcopies (and usually at least a biopsy) – the lifetime risk of this procedure here is a huge 77% (lifetime risk of cc is 0.65%)
      What did they do about that HIGH figure? Nothing.

      My sister did not provide informed consent, in fact, she was told all women MUST have pap testing and then passed along the line with very little real information.
      One day we’ll look back and wonder why so many women had unnecessary hysterectomies, cone biopsies, LEEP etc.
      In the States 1 in 3 women will have a hysterectomy by age 60.
      The problem is clear to me: cancer screening or at least the way it’s practiced – ignore the evidence and women’s legal rights, and maximize risk for women and profits for vested interests.
      Then you remember that cc was always a fairly rare cancer…it’s positively evil.

      I think ACOG groom girls from an early age to accept medical surveillance and interference from a very early age, they recommend the first gyn visit/exam should occur when girls are 12 or 13 and then yearly for the rest of their lives. It also, means IMO, women are trained to distrust and fear their bodies, view them as potential cancer sites.
      I positively reject that thinking. I greatly fear for the daughters who are fed into this evil trade, usually by their mothers, who’ve been brainwashed themselves and believe they’re doing what’s best for their child….when nothing could be further from the truth.
      It’s also, a large part of the reason why the medical profession has no respect for the female body, our bodily autonomy, bodily privacy, dignity, health or lives….we’re income producing objects to them to use as they see fit, in THEIR best interests.
      Remember it’s never too late to make a formal complaint.

    • Moo says:

      Sorry to you Miss. I have heard the same stories over and over. Women will complainof pain from benign issues like fiborids which only have a less than 0.5% of being malignant. They are offered a hysterectomy with no other options just because most of the doctors do not know how to do other surgical techniques or know about other therapies. While they are signing the consent form they are told that they should get their ovaries removed as well “just in case those could go bad”. Woman then goes into instant menopause which no one told her about and also increases her risk of heart disease and stroke.

      The HERS foundation is a goo source of information but it is not enoughl. Too many women find out the truth too late.

    • Alex says:

      That’s horrible! What country did this happen in? Also, how do you know all this was deliberate (instead of incompetant)?

      Then again, they’re still at fault for being too arrogant to catch their own mistakes or to say that the results of something unreliable is a definitive indicator of anything. If they know what they’re doing & they lie or they act like they know what they’re talking about when they don’t- either one’s a scam.

    • adawells says:

      June, are you able to view your medical notes to shed any more light on this? If you are in the UK, there are strict guidelines that in the case of suspected cancer they must treat within 62 days. It was brought in by the UK government as our cancer survival rates are not as good as other countries in Europe. It means that for anyone presenting with suspect symptoms, you are put on a conveyor belt of procedures which must be carried out within so many days – 14 day wait from GP first referral, 62 days from suspected cancer diagnosis to operation. The hospitals face financial penalties if they don’t comply. I know from my own experience with endometrial cancer last year, that it is an utterly terrifying time, with them planning the next stage of treatment, before the current one has been confirmed. I suspect many patients are put through unnecessary treatment because of this.

      • Moo says:

        Thank you for sharing this information. I think the similar guidelines might be used in Canana. They have a cancer registry and a cancer care network where each patient is assigned a worker to book and track all their appointments. Still women seem to feel they are put through a conveyor belt. It is a battle to choose alternative therapies since they claim that people who let the cancer advance too far cost the system more. This is the reason also i know that some women go to naturopaths for pap tests that are sent outside the province to avoid the pap registries. The naturopath also does their own gyn treatments but will not treat cancer. Since i hear the cash chaching there. I am not sure if there are any altenative clinic like Gershon in Canada either. People tend to use that as a last resort and even have difficulty travelling to Mexico due to lack of health insurance.

      • adawells says:

        I’ve just checked the target details, and it is 62 days from first GP referral to actual first treatment, ie surgery. When the GP first makes a referral to a cancer specialist the patient must be seen less than 14 days after this date. I was unhappy with this, and wanted to wait longer to see if my symptoms would return, before having the medical mob get their fingers into me again. As well as this, this put my appointment just before Christmas. Not a good time to tell the family you have cancer. I found the pressure and fear immense, and walked out of my appointment. It was another 3 months before I could get a new appointment, so I think I really messed up their system. I needed time to think and talk to people and get more information, as I certainly felt that I was being railroaded into an unnecessary hysterectomy against my will. I spent those 3 months discovering this website and others and getting loads more information. If they’d only taken the time to talk to me in the first place, let me come to the realisation that it was necessary, instead of processing me against the clock, like in a meat packing plant, it would not have been so much the terrifying ordeal that it was.

  54. Emily says:

    So there was something I saw the other day that I just can’t get out of my head and I wanted some opinions…I was watching TV w my 2yo niece and doc mcstuffins came on. Maybe those of you w kids/grandkids know it? I know it’s not meant to be anything monstrous but I have to admit that show really put me off. It glorifies “going to the doctor” and “getting your checkup” and “let me examine you” and it seems like another tool to brainwash little kids and where the main character is a cute lil black girl it aims at girls more. The episode I watched with my niece had a stuffed monkey mama whose baby was missing instead of clinging to her back. Upon returning baby to mama doc says “Your baby got lost instead of clinging. There might be something wrong with you” (blaming mom for what happens to baby, implying she is defective) Then when doc asks the monkey mama to examine her she gladly replies “Sure Doc! Anything for my baby!” (implies women should do whatever doctors tell them “for baby’s sake” and those who don’t are bad moms) Doc discovers the special patch on mamas back is missing so baby doesn’t cling right and says “Now hold still while I fix you up! This won’t hurt a bit!” as she applies a new one. This spoke to me on sooo many levels and it seems crazy that something meant for little girls carries these sorts of messages subtle as they may be. The whole thing just rubbed me the wrong way. This is what we teach our kids? Our little girls? WTF? Any thoughts ladies? and alex ;)

    • Emily says:

      and just to clarify I don’t hate the show itself because it does promote a lot of diversity and seems to empower girls to do something that takes hard work and intelligence vs just wanting to be princesses but the way they portray the stuffies (aka patients) as hapless victims who don’t know anything and are perfectly compliant is what bothers me…here’s a good link to explain it better maybe http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2758491/pg3

    • kleigh us says:

      I have seen that show and o noticed the same as you. The kids are told to go along with everything and doctor knows what’s best is heavy in that show. I have herd others complain about it before.

    • Alex says:

      Yeah, there’s so much carry-over as far as terms & responses that it seems like an sort of propagandizing effort.

      Let’s see: She “lost” her baby instead of “clinging” (like if she falls down stairs & the embryo/fetus becomes detatched from the uterine wall).

      Then she says “Sure Doc! Anything for my baby?” When else would this come up other than pregnancy? And saying “sure” to “anything” as an instance of saying sure to anything. Also, “Sure, Doc!” makes it seems like she’s so casual & breezy with this doctor. It’s almost like saying “I’m breezy” on an answering machine.

      Then the “Doc” says that something won’t hurt a bit- which is generally never true when they say that. Of course, this is apparently a particularly common thing to affirm when discussing doing something internal to women.

      What is this a puppet show? If so, there’s a stuffed animal aspect to it- that it’s non-threatening & in a way like poisoning Halloween candy.

      • Alex says:

        There were a few typos there, but I hope that it’s clear that it would irk the fuck out me to see my kid watching that.

        Something I forgot before: If there’s a heavy empowerment theme, it could be trying to graft it onto the whole “strong woman” theme. Don’t know how it comes off as independant or even mature to not be self-determined with what happens with your own body. “Take your body back & hand it over to someone else” isn’t really something that can be directly stated & actually come off like it’s OTHER than invasive extrapersonal activity.

        Love that word “extrapersonal.” Can’t believe I didn’t think of it earlier, especially since we talk about that theme pretty frequently.

  55. Emily says:

    WOW….ok….the more I see of this show the more I hate it. check out this load of BS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ2H-ZnJ3is SERIOUSLY?? what the bloody f*ck is this sh*t??….just when i thought childrens TV couldnt get any worse disney has sold our little girls to big pharma…Oh yes, let’s brainwash our girls to “follow drs orders” before they can even talk! and the worst part is everyone loves this show because disney claims they are teaching good values and habits and empowering girls which is somewhat true but theyre only using it as a facade to cover up their real agenda: make our little girls into a giant herd of compliant sheep that will blindly obey and make the medical industry lots and lots of money. F*CK DISNEY honestly I feel so upset right now I could almost cry. just when I thought things might start to get better-that my generation and my little nieces (and possibly future daughter’s) might have the option to get the facts and decide for ourselves instead of hearing “shut up, do what you’re told and don’t ask questions” they go and do this. F*CK YOU DISNEY BASTARDS F*CK EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU SLIMY DECEITFUL BRAINWASHING F*CKS

    • adawells says:

      This is truly creepy. Gyne at my hospital who did my treatment was also called Disney.

      • Alex says:

        Wait, this is the Disneyland site? Not someone’s name “Disney”? It certainly looked like that, but what’s the tie-in? Are they just putting things like than on the site about a children’s theme park?

        This is like if they put some kind of advertisement about pelvic exams in a Toys R’ Us circular!

        Extremely creepy.

    • kleigh us says:


    • Alex says:

      I just saw a thing about Czech Mothers Sue State Over Midwife Ban At Homebirths. Might cheer you up a bit, at least to see them suing over it.

      I plan to move to Europe within a year or two. This is part of it. I had heard the Czech Republic as a suggestion for me a couple of times & I have mixed feelings about it.

      This is part of why I use the whole birth control situation as a bit of a gauge for how a country is going to act medically. If it’s over-the-counter instead of backing women into getting all kinds of probing to get them then they might not be dictatorial in other things or get dangerous behind closed doors (or when someone’s unconscious). I know it doesn’t always work that way (some countries that have the pill over-the-counter are also VERY dictatorial with childbirth or just have a general attitude toward women- Mexico seems to have a fairly high amount of this). Still, I think it can be an indicator of what the “landscape” is like. I figure it factors into the climate you’re having children in, at the very least.

      • adawells says:

        Alex, your comment reminds me of a saying we have in the UK, that you rate a country by how well it treats its animals. They are obviously at the bottom of the welfare pile, and if they are being treated with respect it is supposed to be an indicator of a civilised nation!

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        I live in Southern CA. We are being overrun with illegal aliens. There isn’t a decent apartment to rent. People with pets are charged not only a security deposit, but also rent from $25-50 per month for the pet!

        Mexico is one of the most corrupt nations on earth. Late last year, a bus full of students got lost near a small town. The mayor and his wife were having a celebration and mistakingly thought the busload came there to protest something. The mayor had the students arrested, turned them over to the local drug cartel, who executed them, burning the bodies and dumping them into a river. A few somehow escaped, told other authorities, who began pulling bodies out of the river. The mayor & wife were arrested. No doubt the executions were done using USA supplied weapons; thanks to Obama & his Fast & Furious program.

        The film you discuss appears as if produced by pedophiles. Total indoctrination and total control. Reminds me of the “book” always at a pediatricians office talking about wonderful “inoculations.” No mention of pain or getting sick. As for vaccinations maiming kids? These are being made overseas now, not here and quality controls are lacking. Autism might be explained if there’s a reaction and the brain experiences temporary swelling. Although mercury (thimersoral) free vaccines can be requested, there’s no telling if other impurities or if other toxins or biologicals exist which can elicit such a reaction. We’ll never know, bc no study will ever be commissioned unless data can be manipulated showing no harm. The vaccination protocols (Hep B at childbirth for one which can cause juvenile diabetes type 1 for instance) will be protected at all costs just as the pap bullshit guarded.

        Being a chronic pain patient, that book by Peter Gotzsche (you can download Chap 18 which discusses manipulated Glazo study 329) is very elucidating. Never was I told that SSRI’s, anti-psychotics, and other “safe narcotic free” directly cause significant weight gain, mental problems, suicides, etc. I experienced a number of these, and was too afraid to tell my doctors about what how bad they really were as I’d be blamed, not the drugs. I was on 19 different ones. Best decision I ever made was refusing to take them.

      • bethkz says:

        There is one way to stop illegal aliens: To prosecute those who hire them, and put the owners and boards of directors of corporations that hire them in prison, and disband the corporation, leaving the investors out in the cold. You’d only have to do this to 2 or 3 of them before they would stop. They get various government benefits which are reserved for citizens or legal residents. The only way an illegal alien can get those benefits is through corruption. Find the corrupt people in the government giving them out and jail them. You’d only have to to that 2 or 3 times before that would stop.

        Fast and Furious certainly made the gun situation worse. Then again, so are the hundreds of gun dealers within 1 mile of the Mexican border, who sell guns which are then smuggled into Mexico. There have been hundreds of studies on vaccines and whether they maim children (or others), cause autism, or anything else. There have been no peer-reviewed studies showing that. There was the one fraudulent study done by Dr. Wakefield, for the purpose of providing a law firm with a basis from which to sue. It was the only article in the 200+ year history of the Lancet which was retracted. Thimerisol is only in  tetnus vaccine now. It’s been that way since the 1990s. It’s also in pit viper and black widow antivenom. Before that, the amount of mercury that you get from a battery of vaccinations is less than you’d get from one tuna sandwich, and less than you’ll receive from living within 50 miles of a coal-fired power plant.

        In the 20th century, over 1 billion people died from diseases for which we now have vaccines. There is other damage too, including blindness and other disability. Having eradicated measles from the US in 2000, we’ve now got an epidemic. Patient 0 has been identified. It was a tourist from the Philippines, who was legally here. If you’d like to see what the result of these “childhood diseases” are, see 17 Reasons Why No One Should Ever Vaccinate Their Kids There’s currently a 70% uptake of measles vaccinations, which is below the threshold required to stave off such an epidemic. It’s important to keep an epidemic at bay to protect people who cannot receive the vaccines – newborns, the immuno-compromised, people for whom the vaccine or the actual disease did not protect them. Freedom to refuse vaccinations vs the rights for others to protect themselves against deadly diseases? It’s like the libertarian notion that your right to wave your arms around ends at another person’s nose. Quarantine is explicitly spelled out as a governmental duty in the Constitution, given to the Navy. Vaccinations have evidence-based science behind them. This is quite unlike the whole pelvic exam, pap, mammography issue which has no science behind it, and is shown to increase healthcare costs and death rates. Beth

        |   | |   | |   |   |   |   |   | | 17 Reasons Why No One Should Ever Vaccinate Their KidsWhy would you? WARNING: Contains images that some may find disturbing. | | | | View on http://www.buzzfeed.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | |   |

      • Alex says:

        adawells: Yeah, there’s a point with that. Although I remember reading a story about a woman that got locked-up for giving her cat a pap smear. Certainly seems that there’s more consideration of animals than people in America, since they seem to have a very large tendancy toward backing women into these sorts of things- and, thus, all the ramifications of risks & inaccuracies or complications from resultant surgery.

        Cat & Mouse + bethkz: To be honest, I don’t think it’s always the mercury in vaccines that causes problems. There can be other ingredients that cause problems & the amounts of these things (whether this is in “one shot” or in combination with other injections) can be a factor, too. A major point is that people jus think a vaccine means that it’s a dead virus that can’t do anything & it’s not always the case. I don’t remember what the exact terms are (I remember something to the effect of “vaccine” meaning one thing, but “inoculation” meaning something else), but some things are just a weakened virus that can always regain strength when it’s in someone’s system or that even gets reinvigorated BY later injections.

        As for guns, I don’t think there should be as much gun control as there is. There being a lot of guns around isn’t the problem, them all being in one spot is. As true for goverments as it is for cartels. Keep in mind that there are all kinds of “cartels,” not just ones that deal cocaine.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Alex, I certainly agree with you. We are pro gun to the hilt. Too bad that stance has been maligned by the Left. Government has no business in regulating with the purpose of removing the lone freedom which prevents abuse. The present generation has been brainwashed into forgetting how freedoms are won out of tyranny and what sacrifice actually involves.

        My state, CA, has literally been ruined and politically turned upside down compliments of illegal immigration and multiple amnesties. CA has the 2nd worse roads, the highest gas taxes, and the worst problems, saturation, due to illegals. Yet our ultra-Liberal dominated State Government invites more and more. Diseases which were eradicated, things like bed bugs, human tragedies like sex trafficking, all going strong and living near the border not safe at all. Don’t even imagine the cops will come to help you. The South Western US states are referred to as “Aztlan.” Arizona has tried time and again to stem illegals, and restore honesty to elections by requiring ID; everytime struck down by Obama’s courts.

        Obama is ignoring Christian suffering, while secretly importing muslims. 75,000 more being relocated in small town USA. Our national fabric is being shredded from within; and our “free” Liberal media silently watches and encourages more of the same. North TX has a mosque where Sharia based courts offer an alternative to muslims who seek such. The proponents bark that they are no threat, have no intention of replacing US laws & legal systems. That’s how it starts. Next, “rights” must be afforded in schools, modesty mandates part of dress codes, meals must be changed in accordance, and anything “critical” of Islam must be struck from textbooks & history lessons. Mosques replace churches. Thugs patrol parks offering advice. This time, we’re the natives or indians, and here comes the new cavalry. Not by horseback, but by Boeing & Airbus.

        What was mentioned re vaccines captures my thoughts. I agree it’s more than thimerosal. However, the amounts of mercury injected directly into muscle tissues if a child were to receive this neurotoxin in vaccines would be 64x higher than the safe amount recommended for adults. Nobody has studied its effects on children’s sensitive nervous systems. I’ve mentioned HEP B causing juvenile diabetes. Government & the medical “industry” will NEVER allow an honest study to be completed showing effects concentrated amounts of vaccines or inoculations have on kids-including the shots where four or more are combined into one.

        Last week a woman related how her son was changed from being healthy into a lifetime of autism. She used video of her healthy son, then sick, then “lights on nobody home” proving her point, saying after a vaccination series, he showed signs not only of illness, but behaviors & signs of classic brain swelling. This makes a lot of sense to me. One, few pediatric doctors will recognize that absent meningitis-especially if no reason to make any medical connection. Fewer if any parents know the signs.

        Like ordering all women into pap/pelvics, we cannot mandate all kids into the same vaccination ritual. Kids develop at different rates, and some are extremely sensitive while some show little reaction outside what’s expected.

        If a foreign government meant to do USA harm, a great way would be to tamper with vaccines. Sooner or later, almost everybody receives them. We have no safeguards, no testing, no monitoring. Just like generic drugs. We’re told they’re the same and they work the same just cheaper price. In 1980’s Central America, and today’s Kenya & Uganda, “special vaccines” having different dosing protocols were/are supplied by UN and being given to child bearing aged females. These vaccines secretly had human tissues (can’t remember scientific name) which caused recipients’ immune systems to attack & kill any baby growing inside their wombs. Effectively sterilizing the women. So yes, vaccines can be screwed with to our detriment.

        Elizabeth reported a doctor who bragged holding The Pill hostage to pap/pelvic. Bullying & intimidation. Exactly what I endured during 80’s & 90’s at Kaiser. We are at war on several fronts involving our healthcare. Recently we’ve exposed the fraud behind pap/pelvic. Now we’re awaiting government & private insurance to catch up & change laws and protocols. The same thing needs to be done regarding vaccines and generic medications.

        In the latter, manufacturers deliberately manipulate markets, preventing cheaper alternatives, including those few generics which actually come close to performing like brand names do. Here & there fines are levied. However, monopolies like Kaiser still lie, bully, and intimidate patients into having to pay full retail for brand name or better quality generics when the bottom-most line, cheapest imports (like Qualitest which is often cited & recalled for quality control issues) are available. No alternative are offered, unlike most plans which allow a patient to file a Prior Authorization seeking an exception to formulary or the average pharmacy which stokes three or more different branded generics. If the diagnosis doesn’t mean suffering & death, the cure does.

  56. Moo says:

    I do not want to be forced into getting vaccinated nor blamed for being infected with a disease there is a vaccine that there is a vaccine for.

    My parents got me every vaccine recommended for school. I got the MMR and I still got the measles at age 15. The high school was concerned because many other students got it but more for them losing funding based on attendance the risk of the school being closed. It is and was always more about politics. Alos people with infectious disease go to the doctor’s office and give those disease to healthy people who are there for “check ups”. Our doctor made a housecall because she had obsteric patients she did not want exposed to measles.

    I got chicken pox twice. The shingles vaccine besides being expensive is also not very effective. You can look up the stats. Also vaccines can be contaminaafed with disease causing viruses and DNA/RNA/proteins. It was found some polio vaccines were contaminated with a virus that causes cancer in mammals but not known what it does to humans. Also knowing that doctors push vaccinations for their population bonuses the same as paps, mammogram and colonscopies does not give me much confidence in being provided informed consent.

    • Alex says:

      I’ve noticed that older people tend to vote for the things they’ve always gone with, even if they don’t work anymore- maybe people’s trust works the same way?

      I also notice that a lot of people try to show off how non-arrogant they are by acting like they’re stupid & blindly trusting what someone else says (especially if they have training of some kind). With old people it seems to be not wanting to be arrogant, with young people it seems to be wanting to gain other people’s approval & not wanting to look bad.

  57. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    I went to a fascinating (and concerning) lecture last night by Peter Gotzsche from the Nordic Cochrane Institute. He didn’t mention breast screening, but I noticed his book on that subject was for sale in the foyer.
    I’m sure BreastScreen and others would have tried to keep him out of Australia if breast screening had been included in his presentation.
    He talked about the use and overuse of psychiatric drugs, including antidepressants, antipsychotic and also, mentioned anti-inflammatory drugs. (non steroidal)
    He also, talked about the downgrading of symptoms and time frames used to make a diagnosis, using the charts most of his team were either depressed or manic!
    Ordinary expressions of human emotional are now medicated, things like grief.

    I bought his latest book, “Deadly Medicines and Organised Crime: How Big Pharma has corrupted healthcare”.
    I was shocked to hear that 11% of American children are diagnosed as having ADHD, that’s a lot of children, he felt parents were often content with the diagnosis because it meant they weren’t bad parents, “he’s got ADHD”.

    He thinks antidepressants are ineffective, addictive and harmful.
    Psychotherapy should be the first line of defence in psychiatry, not drugs, GPs should not be allowed to prescribe psychiatric drugs, only psychiatrists. (about 68% of prescriptions for antidepressants come from GPs)
    After I’ve read the book, I’ll post some more, but basically, large numbers of people are dying as a result of these drugs, and the evidence supporting their use is poor or biased.
    He doesn’t believe children should EVER be prescribed psychiatric drugs# their brains are still developing, he believes there use increases the risk of criminal activity, substance abuse, suicide, poor behaviour/results at school, social and sexual dysfunction etc.
    #He received a spontaneous round of applause from the audience.
    He also, mentioned that those speaking out are often subjected to threats and intimidation, he certainly has…I know he’s been given a hard time over the last 10 years after the Cochrane review on breast screening was released, a very hard time. (although most women here have never seen it, the vested interests are still in control, but they must be worried….very worried, that target is looking further and further away)

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      “he believes there use increases the risk of criminal ”
      Sorry, that should read THEIR use…

    • adawells says:

      Elizabeth, I wondered what kind of people made up the audience? Was it members of the public, medical people, academics? How was it reported in the Aussie press?

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Ada, I got the impression most people were working in mental health, so psychiatrists, GPs, academics, researchers, medical students and a few members of the public.
        I don’t think it was well advertised to the public though, I think it was aimed at medical professionals and medical students. I only found out about it because Mary posted about it on this site, horrifying that I almost missed it! (Thanks Mary)
        I thought it was interesting that Peter Gotzsche suggested people aggrieved by psychiatric care should speak to a lawyer, the thinking I assume is legal action means people take notice, there are possibly serious consequences for doing the wrong thing by your patient.

        I’m sure we would have seen change faster in women’s “healthcare” had more women sued these programs and doctors. (or even lodged complaints with the Medical Board)
        That is not a criticism of women, everyone reacts differently to abuse, and we have a system that has normalized (and encouraged) the medical abuse of women and blames/judges any woman who does not accept what goes on in women’s “healthcare”.
        Even my complaint about a male doctor who admitted using coercion to force women to have pap tests is interesting when you consider that a male spokesman for the AMA made a similar public admission last year. We all know it goes on, but sadly, most women accept the abuse or find another doctor. (and don’t report the old doctor)

        I’d urge everyone to report any doctor who tries to pressure, coerce, intimidate, mislead or scare you into pap testing, once the Medical Board gets more complaints, they’ll have to finally address what they KNOW is going on. No one has clean hands here, the promotion of opportunistic screening, the continued linking of the Pill and pap testing and secret target payments to doctors for pap testing means IMO, the system has never really respected consent for women.
        You have to remember up until recently making a complaint would have fallen on deaf medical ears, the Medical Board IMO, protected doctors until about 10 years ago when more women went to the Police, I think it’s now unsafe for them to adopt the old approach.

        Dr Gotzsche’s response was triggered when a man asked a question about his wife’s suicide, she was withdrawing from valium under the supervision of a private psychiatric hospital, she’d been on the drug for many years. (the family was pushing for a coronial hearing)

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I just discovered Peter Gotzsche did speak about over-diagnosis in breast screening (and the risks v benefits in prostate and bowel screening), I stumbled upon this Reply on the BreastScreen site, they’re already in damage control.
        Such a shame it wasn’t well publicized…I would definitely have attended the lecture. His tour has obviously been “handled” so as not to upset the zealots too much.


  58. Anonymous says:

    Today I went in for a surgical consult to address an issue with my labia. I had explained to the doctor that I had a routine Pap smear and my first mammogram two weeks prior and did not need a traditional exam just a surgical consult. While in mid conversation the scapula was inserted into me and he conducted a pelvic exam without permission or telling me despite me opening up our discussion about not needing or wanting an exam. When I recoilded he scoffed at me, as if the intrusion was totally acceptable, I was over reacting, and although I didn’t have a medical reason for the exam he knew “best.” I got to my vehicle and cried. Although not assaulted it feels like such a violation. I made devistated.

  59. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Disgraceful conduct, I wouldn’t go near him again and I’d make a formal complaint with the Surgeons Association and the relevant medical association.
    I think some doctors forget there are boundaries and something called consent, they need to be reminded. I’ve always felt some doctors enjoy the power of their position, disregarding your wishes and scoffing at you sounds like someone who needs to be reminded he does not have the right to do as he pleases with your body.

  60. Si says:

    Anonymous, I’m so sorry this happened to you. His derisive attitude towards you is characteristic of an abusive personality, and what he did to you was wrong. I would actually call it assault – just because he is a medical practitioner does not give him the right to penetrate you without your consent, conducting an unwanted examination is an incursion of your bodily privacy and is a criminal offence. I agree with Elizabeth, if you feel up to it, I think this incident warrants further investigation. it’s understandable that you would be experiencing feelings of devastation and violation, I hope you have found some support and validation to help you get through this experience.

  61. Alex says:

    Anonymous: That absolutely IS an assault. Properties don’t change by designation, justl ike if a doctor poisons someone with a needle it’s still murder. This was an interface with a sexual area (specifically a penetrative one) as a product of someone else’s decision making, which is an attack. There doesn’t have to be any wrestling or screaming involved. People seem to think that things like this only happen in stairwells & basements, but it’s not strictly limited to these areas or to the conventional variations of attack.

    It really doesn’t HAVE to be with an underlying intention of antagonism, either.

    He proceeds to do these things of his own accord AFTER you convey disinterest in these procedures. Not that it would have to be that way, of course. I guess the term is “extrapersonal application of influence.” Wouldn’t make any difference if there were potential health benefits or if this was a man or a woman, either. If someone went to a restaurant & the server shoved a salad down your throat, that would be an attack. Doesn’t make any different if there is any potential utility or if they are the same gender as the one they are doing it to.

    To be a little more parallel to this situation, if some woman just went and fingered another woman under her skirt as a self-comported action, that would be an attack. Doesn’t make any difference if they’re the same gender or if the one doing it receives any gratification from doing so. It definitely doesn’t matter if the assailant affirms a wrongdoing. This is the same for a man & the occupation of the aggressor doesn’t matter.

    I hope this doesn’t come off like I’m yelling at you, it just pisses me off as a subject & how people have (or pretend to have) these little selective blindspots which seem to be very common in American culture.

  62. Moo says:

    I would like to being up two topics which i feel have not been discussed enough.

    The first is that i heard from a friend who had a colposcopy that she was actually restrained during a procedure. Her wrists were tied down. She thinks this is because she was asked by a nurse during a preassessment if she had any psychiatric problems. She did tell me that she had a friend who had her own very negative experiences with colposcopies, cone biopsy etc. This women actually opted out of the medical stream wheh they told her that she should have a hysterectomy before age 30. She refused but also i heard about her being restrained during procedures, being tricked into signing another consent form when she put on it “no biopsies”, she was not allowed to take her cellphone with her (to call 911 when they refused to stop hurting her), she had a bra cut off her during one procedure. She was repeated called back when she refused further treatments until she came in for “counselling”. She just refused and seeked alternative therapies. She ended up having her first baby at age 40. So she never had cancer even though she was made to understand she had a cervical cancer diagnosis,

    Is restraining a patient for a colposcopy, a leep or cone biopsy just standard procedure? Maybe this one colposcopy clinic is just the worst but i have heard from many women that they keep calling back when women cancel an appointment they are just given and expected to attend. If a women goes in for counselling they tell her she is going to die a horrible death without treatment.

    This all happened in Canada.

    The other issue is if a woman decides to go for a self HPV and it comes back positive what should she do besides wait and try another HPV test a few times? There is the option to get some plastic speculum and look at your own cervix with vinegar. Has anyone tried any alternative therapies such as green tea extract, hydrogen peroxide, vitamins or Chinese medicine tampons?

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