Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog. (click on title or graphic to go to comments)

About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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1,336 Responses to Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

  1. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Well, well, well, haven’t they kept this quiet? I just found a local web address for Delphi Bioscience. It says “your doctor can order a Delphi Screener for you”…so the Screener will be locked behind doctors. Now why doesn’t that surprise me…


    Women who don’t want to go through a doctor might be able to get it from Singapore, I’ll let you know when I hear from Delphi Bioscience.
    A few interesting things:
    “Will the Delphi Screener only be available through prescription?
    This depends on the country. The Screener can be offered for free through the government, or can be bought at the pharmacy, or be provided by a general practitioner or gynaecologist.”

    “Where is the Delphi Screener available?
    We are currently using the Screener in many countries around the world to collect local information on the use (Netherlands, Finland, Italy, Germany, Malta, USA, Singapore).”

  2. Alex says:

    It’s not really related to this subject, exactly- but did you hear about doctors in the U.K. trying to get KITCHEN KNIVES BANNED?! They are so into micro-managing people’s lives that they think somoene shouldn’t even have kitchen knives.

    Supposedly, it’s because they are used in attacks- but what is someone supposed to grab if they get attacked? As it is, guns are a huge controversy & so are regular knives (but fixed & folding). For some reason BOWHUNTING is illegal in Britain, too. Better amputate people’s hands because they could use those to protect & provide for themselves!

    What happened to England? I don’t know if Scotland or Wales is like this or if they’re blanketed by all this “rubbish” (as they call it), but it’s getting to the point where it seems like they or someone else wants them to curl up in a ball & die! For fuck’s sake, it’s things like this that people went to outright WAR for! This wasn’t even always against a foreign enemy & after at least 1000 years of history, you’d think the lesson would be learned.

    I’m only a little Irish & English, but it still gets me a bit cranked-up. One of my cousins is in London right now, actually. I’m starting to get worried that she’ll get all kinds of shit aimed at her like she would in America. Maybe she’s got too pointy of a pen or something.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Alex, you’re 100% right! Not only in UK, but also in Australia. Back when the “do-gooders” in Australia got guns banned, and ordered all be turned in and destroyed, the next thing on “protect society from itself” menu was, you guessed it, knives. These were also described as “killing machines.” Laws were discussed which provided police access to knock on anybody’s door and inspect that all knives were placed under lock and key.

      What is society coming to? The lawmakers and police disarm us, claiming it’s how we need to be protected from ourselves. Hundreds of people die each year waiting for help on 911. Meanwhile, the same police beat, abuse, kill, and loot the people they are protecting. Laws are regularly violated by those who enforce them. And the media rarely covers these stories, unless there’s fresh bloody film. And the cops make sure to destroy cameras and film if they can. If you want real news on this, check out http://www.nranews.org. At least the US NRA is truthful.

      Meanwhile, Islamists everywhere are torturing, raping, murdering in the name of their religion. I just discovered the Islamist child drugging and molest network in UK. And in the Middle East, there’s talk of bringing back sex slave markets, where captured infidel women are sold off, to be used and disposed when no longer desired. It’s in the Koran… If there is a new ten-state Islamist union formed with Turkey as its head, this is the beginning of End-Times Prophecy. Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, Revelations are being played out before our lives. Within 10 yrs, immigrant muslims will have voting majorities in Europe. Multiculturilism does not work when the immigrants do not want to assimilate. Happens in US, everywhere. And nobody dare report it in the news.

  3. Ro says:

    I keep up-to-date on politics via different political blogs as I find those to be the most unbiased. Today, however, people were discussing health care on one of those blogs and the following conversation was in the comments:

    Comment 1: “I’m a medical student. Most of us are, in fact, at least partially motivated by money. A MD/DO is a straight one way ticket to upper middle class at least. Sure, we want to help people, but we also want the money. Anyone who tells you different is lying through their teeth.”

    Comment 2: “That’s what I figured. I work in the medical field and the doctors who aren’t in it for the money are few and far between, and there’s nothing wrong with that.”

    There you have it ladies (and gents). Straight from the horse’s mouth. People wonder why there are those of us who think that doctors do things for incentives or more money. People wonder why we think their primary focus isn’t to actually help people heal, but to make money. Maybe because it’s true and they even admit to it. I’m so aggravated by this. I know we’ve all discussed it here before, about money being a big deciding factor in how doctors handle things (and these comments only serve to validate those assumptions), but to actually see those in the medical field admit to it is particularly awful. I am so horrified by this. And in regards to “there’s nothing wrong with that”, there’s SO MUCH wrong with that. The fact that they think there’s nothing wrong with doing something that involves the well-being of others for money just goes to show how twisted the “logic” in the medical field is. Good grief.

    • Moo says:

      Yes most people do work for money.

      The car mechanic, the hair stylist, the medical doctor all provide services for which they get paid. They can recommend services that I do not want and I feel that I can decline. They all deal with safety issues such as a car machanic can deem a car unsafe to keep it off the road, a hair stylist might refuse to colour a person’s hair with a known allergy to hair dye. But is this all similar to the medical profession? A doctor could ask a few screening questions that lead to a sleep study and someone is diagnosed with sleep apnea. They are told they have to attend further appointments and purchase an expensive CPAP machine (though no way of determining if they are using it) or the doctor will have their driver’s licence suspended. For many people taking their ability to legally drive means much hardship.

      Anyway I am really sick of MDs ranting on about how long and expensive their education is. It should be paid for by public funds as all education should be. Any number of professions such as hair stylist, car mechanic also has to be licenced and pay rent etc. there is really no excuse for the medical profession to give such lousey customers choice and bad customer service.

      • Ro says:

        Moo – I personally think there is a huge difference between hair stylists/car mechanics/etc. and doctors. The first big difference is that car mechanics and hair stylists do not directly affect the well-being and health of any human being (I say they don’t DIRECTLY affect people because while a mechanic could make a mistake and mess up someone’s car creating potential dangers, and a hair stylist could potentially dye someone’s hair which would cause them to have an allergic reaction, neither of these were done for money or ulterior motives, they were just unfortunate mistakes as everyone is human). If they include more than what is necessary to get more money, no human being has actually been harmed in the process. Furthermore, when is the last time you met a car mechanic or hair stylist whose main motivation was money? I can’t remember. Every one that I’ve encountered has been passionate about and enjoyed those things, then decided to pursue them as a career. Of course they need money to sustain themselves and of course everyone works for money to an extent, the point is that their motivation to enter into those specific fields was NOT money. It was their interest in the field. If they were in it for money, hair stylists and car mechanics would have entered a more lucrative field such as law or the medical field. In the case of a stylist refusing to dye someone’s hair because they have an allergy, that is common sense. Besides which, it is perfectly legal and possible for someone to dye their hair on their own accord. There isn’t any barrier one must go through to get the dye. You can even buy professional grade dye from beauty supply stores. If a mechanic deems a car unsafe to drive, you can trust that it really is unsafe to drive. They don’t make money off of someone not driving. If everyone was off the roads then they would be out of business entirely. That is just my opinion on the matter though.

        I agree that the medical field gives lousy customer’s choice and bad customer service. However, there seems to be a sense of entitlement that comes with the degree, because they were in school for so long and did spend out so much money.

  4. Moo says:

    A surgeries a procedure that repairs the cervix and even treats cervicla cancer. It is largely ignored. This article also explains why freezing, burning the cervix and cone biopsies which are done after a bad Pap test result are so damaging and really not necessary.


  5. Moo says:

    Herbal treatments of the cervix. What LEEP actually does and the cervix does not grow back. The damage is permanent. See these photos.


  6. Moo says:

    There is some talk of urine tests for HPV becoming available soon. If this is a doctor office only test it is actually worse. The standard unrine test (just leave the little cup there with your name on it) is going to mean more nonconsented testing that is reported to the government registry for women where I live. It is going to be more harassment for further “investigations” and reporting of cancer cases (no vacation travel insurance, job security etc). I already had one doctor do unconsented STI tests on my sample that I left for what I thought was a bladder infection.

    So what I can do is take the lab form and the bottle home and deliver it myself to the lab. Or just totally not go to doctors at all.

    We need private confidential testing and treatments by our choice. Not forced coerced tests.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Moo, yourself and Elizabeth are just amazing in the info you discover and medical practices you elucidate us to knowing. I am forever grateful to the efforts made here. This reminds me of Joan Rivers dying due to things being performed that she never gave advance consent to do.

      Could you please remind me how you know that HPV cannot be latent? My husband has mouth cankers all his life. Now and then I get a cold sore; these are caused by a herpes virus. The herpes virus apparently lives somewhere in either our mouths or nerve system and attacks…

      Where does the HPV virus hide out? Just in the area where it chooses to infect? And if our bodies beat it off, or if it’s otherwise killed by medical treatment, it it truly gone forever?

      I’m going to make my gyne appt soon, and see if I get the Delphi or something else. There won’t be a pelvic done. The doctor already knows and has agreed… Thanks in advance!

      • Moo says:

        Wow I have to keep repeating the same information.

        I could not find any published scientific study that proves that HPV can be a latent infection in the genitals in the way that the Herpes virus stays latent in the nerve cells. There is only a paper that was published that suggests a theory of latency of HPV. A theory that was not proven.

        There are over 100 strains of HPV that infect humans. Some give people foot warts and some only infect the genitals. Some people might have more than one strain of HPV at one time or have serial infections with different strains at different times in their life. The theory is that immunity against a particular strain should be long lasting otherwise how would the vaccines work? But then I have read that the vaccines really do not work as well as they should be and the there are the side effects.

        HPV tests are either positive or negative for certain high risk strains all lumped together or with separate test results for HPV 16 and 18 since those are going with the vaccine.

        Often the body’s immune system will fight off the HPV infection within a few years. Sometimes the viral DNA will get into body cells and change them into cancer cells which will divide until they are tumors. Some herbs do help fight HPV infection. Diet, exercise and stopping smoking also help the immune system. The medical “cure” for HPV infection is either cutting out tissue, burning with laser, heat or chemicals or freezing to destroy tissue. However this “cure” does not kill off any random infected cells or cells that have turned into cancer cells unless they are removed by the destruction. Some women will have LEEP more than once and their cervical dysplasia comes back. Some ointments are available for genital warts outside the body but drugs for internal (such as inside the vagina or cervix) are only at the experimental stage.

        Being immune suppressed puts a person at risk of getting any type of infection and dying from it. These are organ transplant patients, cancer patients receiving conventional therapies, HIV victims, very old or young and sometimes pregnant women.

        The interesting fact is that young women tend to have HPV infections while the cancer in women over 50 is higher. So what is happening that women get reinfected or get different strains when they are older that their immune system cannot fight off? HPV infected cells turned cancer cell grow quickly or not since this maybe has not been studied. If the cell DNA was changed then there is something that turned on the cancer genes but no one understand this.

        I do not know your situation. Just decide what you want from a doctor. Get the facts and if you feel that a Pap test, HPV test or pelvic exam is right for you then do that. If you do not, then don’t. It’s your body.

  7. Mint says:

    Taken from a web page of a GP surgery in the UK…….

    “Under certain conditions we may be able to issue repeat prescriptions of the contraceptive pill without the need to see a doctor or nurse.

    You may apply for a repeat prescription of the same contraceptive pill if

    you are aged between 18 and 35
    you are currently taking certain contraceptive pills that have been prescribed by a GP at our practice. The list of pills is available on the application form.
    you have had your blood pressure and weight measured in the last year, either in the practice or by a health professional, and these are within safe limits.
    you have had a cervical smear test within the last three years.
    you are happy with your current pill and have no problems or side effects”

    It would appear that the doctors and nurses at this surgery missed the day at medical school when informed consent was discussed.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Mint, I found something similar on a website here, so it seems some doctors are still using the Pill to mislead women into pap testing. I tried to lodge a complaint and was shuffled from one place to another, they make it as hard as possible. Instead I sent my complaint straight to the Clinic, received no response.
      Everyone in medicine knows this goes on…and everyone ignores it, it protects the program, helps reach the target securing target payments…and it’s “for our own good”. Incredible that respecting women’s legal rights and adhering to proper ethical standards appears to be too difficult in women’s healthcare. No one has clean hands here, the GPs have often received tips from the Govt/screening authority on ways to increase coverage, achieving a target will clash with informed consent. So when coverage is the only consideration, all of these tactics are over-looked or justified as necessary to save lives etc.
      Mint, I’d send the UK Medical Council a link to the website and make a formal complaint. Discussion and concerns about informed consent in women’s cancer screening are more advanced in the UK, I think they’d be forced to take action.
      It’s only when doctors are challenged that they’ll change their behaviour. Sadly, they’ve been getting away with this sort of outrageous conduct for far too long.
      When a woman is led to believe a pap test is a clinical requirement for the Pill, she’s been misled into the test, that IMO, negates all consent and is a serious matter. Doctors are so bold and comfortable flouting our legal rights they even include the evidence on their websites. It will take a long time to change the current thinking and conduct, but it starts when we challenge, report, complain and reject.

    • adawells says:

      We only have a choice of 2 GP surgeries in our area, and I am sure that before about 2010, the wording on their websites always said “all new female patients will be given a smear test”. After my smear test from hell in 1997 I repeatedly looked to change doctor, but was trapped by only being able to select surgeries in our catchment area, and both said that all new women patients would be given a smear test. As we have the larger practice near us I stayed where I was, as I started to realise that if you saw someone who wasn’t your named GP, they never bothered you for smear tests. It may have been because their 80% target had to be from only those on their list, and they gained nothing in screening someone elses patient.

      I’ve noticed that both practices have since updated their websites and this has now been taken off. However, I did recently get an application form for another practice, which asked when my last smear test was, so the pressure may still be there, but just not on the website anymore.
      I’ve also noticed that surgeries are switching to online appointments and repeat prescriptions, and I do not know what would happen if a woman tried to book repeat pill prescriptions without a smear test. Maybe the doctor can set it to refuse a renewal if the smear test hasn’t been done? Perhaps other posters can let us know?

      I’ve also noticed at my practice that there are no leaflets or even a mention of cervical screening, even on the well woman noticeboard in the waiting room, anymore.

      At the gyn department at the hospital, I have recently had to attend, one whole noticeboard had been covered in a ghastly bright pink promotional display for cervical screening. It looked like a load of pink vomit on the wall. Buried amongst it were the small words “Informed consent”, which annoyed me intensely, because once informed you may decide not to consent. Always they assume consent will be given. However, at my last appointment, this wall display was looking decidedly scrappy, with a lot of bits missing, and someone had changed this little notice to read “Informed choice”.

      Change is definitely in the air.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I’ve now sent a complaint to the Medical Ombudsman about that statement, “women on the Pill need pap tests”. We’ll see what they have to say…but I think we’re a long way behind the UK. A spokesman for the AMA said last year that he doubted many doctors would prescribe the pill without a current pap test on file. No one challenged that statement, basically a doctor still tying the Pill to elective cancer screening and I assume refusing the Pill if a woman exercised her legal right and declined the test. Coercion = no consent at all.
        No one, as far as I’m aware, (and I looked!) had a problem with this statement coming from the AMA. So hardly surprising GPs are happy to promote pap testing as a clinical requirement for the Pill. It seems some doctors are still treating women like second class citizens, while others are far more respectful. I also, doubt most of our doctors would share the opinion of the male doctor speaking for the AMA. I’ve heard from a few women who’ve faced pressure here, have been misled, but coercion is risky, if a woman complains, you’re in trouble, you cannot refuse the Pill simply because a woman chooses not to have elective cancer screening.
        My GP does not have breast or cervical screening brochures in her waiting room, they were removed many years ago.

  8. Elizabeth (Aust) says:


    Women here are apparently waiting for the new program to start in 2016, so we’re being told we’re risking our lives “avoiding” 2 yearly pap testing.
    Honestly, the lies will continue, it doesn’t take much research to find 2 yearly pap testing just fills up day procedure, I suppose they want to “treat” as many as possible before the program is changed. They’re still likely to do well under our new program, lots of young women will still be referred, biopsied and “treated”.
    Who could ever trust these programs? They promote what they KNOW is BAD medical advice, that can only end up harming and worrying a lot of women.
    Needless to say, you can’t leave a comment.
    Thankfully, many women will now see straight through this self-serving nonsense, they can no longer assume we’re all trusting and sensitive to their “warnings”, we’re no longer putty in their hands. More of us know exactly what’s going on….

    • Alex says:

      So, somoene actually says that they doubt that a doctor would prescribe this without having this exam on file- yet, if someone were to say: “I doubt any doctor would prescribe this without trying to coerce women into all kinds of invasive tests,” that’s someone misrepresenting them? Ever notice how they play victim all the damn time, too? I guess they DO feel persecuted for the shit they do.

      Cops do the same shit. Actually, I remember an article where a cop was basically saying “You know, people don’t trust us but doctors kill WAY more people than we do.” He’s probably right, but they both play all kinds of “woe is me” shit when THEY do something.

      Another thing is that they always claim massive amounts of expertise, yet nothing is their fault when it doesn’t go right. What is everybody supposed to be? Dupes? They have all kinds of knowledge one minute, then they didn’t give bad information when it works out as a fucking catastrophe?!

    • adawells says:

      This is so typical of tabloid news stories. So women are “confused” are they? Sounds to me like Aussie women are better informed than this reporter is about screening and the press are the ones who are confused. They write about how this woman’s cancer was picked up by the pap test, when the woman’s doctor says it was a good job, she didn’t wait for her pap test or she would be dead. So in other words it wasn’t the pap test at all which found her cancer. Her case completely contradicts the news story.

      This happens all the time and makes me so angry. Some people develop rare agressive forms of cancer, which no amount of screening would have found, but they then go on a moral crusade, often getting lucrative contracts with the tabloid press to promote a screening test, which is nothing to do with their type of cancer. The breast cancer charity Coppafeel is the breast equivalent of Jo’s Cervical Trust, and targets the under 30’s petrifying them with terrifying stories of extremely rare cases. It’s disgusting that young women are targeted in this way.

    • Moo says:

      There is a link to another headline “urine test for cervical cancer” but it is a urine test for HPV. Having an HPV infection is not the same as having cancer.

    • Moo says:

      The article quotes a doctor saying that women find Pap tests intrusive but they go for bikini waxes every 6 weeks. Sorry no comparison. and anyway I have never had anyone wax my bikini line.

    • adawells says:

      This item came out 3 days ago, and Julia Brotherton seems to be saying that Aussie women can take the vaginal swab themselves in 2016. Am I reading this correctly?


      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I read that piece too Ada, if that’s the case they’ve kept it very quiet. I suspect they’ll do everything to pressure women into the program, and self-testing options will only be offered as a last resort for very “hard-to-reach” women.
        Of course, I’m not interested in testing at all, so they can “offer” what they like, no deal.
        I doubt my doctor will even mention self-testing to me. She knows if I’d wanted to self-test, I’d have done so years ago. I work in Singapore now and then and the Screener has been available there for a few years now.
        The problem here is they point blank refuse to view screening as a choice for women, I’m sure we’ll see the argument, what objection could you have to self-testing?
        Note if a woman tests HPV+ here (and we’ll be testing women from 25, so lots will test HPV+) they’ll be pressured to have a colposcopy and biopsy, when all they should be offered is a 5 yearly pap test. (until they clear the virus)
        I think we should always view screening in a broad way, not as a test, but as the possible beginning of a cascade of further testing, biopsies or treatments or even being over-diagnosed and facing unnecessary chemo, radiation etc.
        It is never a simple, life-saving test, it can be the start of an absolute nightmare and may even take your life.

      • adawells says:

        Clearly, there are going to be major overhauls to cervical screening in 2016 by a number of countries, but we’ve had very little news about any changes planned for the UK system. We have a general election coming up next May, and I think this is part of the reason. There was a good article from the Metro newspaper about the urine test for HPV. I’ve been trying to find a link, but I can’t find the article online. It was a good article, because it was honest that the invasive test was unacceptable to women, and there was no propaganda input from the cancer charities saying it’s quick and painless and could save your life, etc. I am sure the UK is keeping things under wraps, because knowing something better was on the horizon, would cause the present programme to collapse.

    • Ozphoenix says:

      HI Elizabeth!

      I saw that article as well. I sent the writer, Amy, the following email, but of course, as usual, there has been no reply. They’re always eager to ‘tut, tut’ about women missing pap smears, but present them with real facts and first-hand information, and the silence is all too familiar.

      “Hi Amy,

      Your article on pap smears is very interesting. I’m a woman who has weighed up the facts and figures and decided not to have pap smears. Do you realise that women have the right to choose NOT to have a pap smear? That they do not need to have ‘excuses’ not to? I am not participating in a screening program which is searching for a rare cancer, using an inaccurate – and highly invasive – test.

      The line in your article says, ‘Ninety per cent of women diagnosed with cervical cancer have not had regular pap tests’. That is a regular and highly false ‘fact’ rolled out by screening authorities and cancer organisations, and is definitely not true!

      The other side of the coin is that women who DO have regular pap smears CAN and DO die from cervical cancer regardless (at least fifty per cent of them!), because the test cannot detect all forms of cervical cancer (such as adenocarcinoma, the common type), particularly when it is too far inside the cervical canal to be ‘brushed’ for a pap smear, or is not of the correct type to be easily picked up.

      I am angry because women are being lied to. They are being given little or no scientific information about pap smears, only pap smear propaganda to co-erce them to screen. Women think that cervical cancer is incredibly common, and that we might drop dead in the street if we don’t get pap smears! It is incredbly rare – not comon at all!

      As an ex-government biologist (B.Sc. Bio. and Ass.Dip Bio Techniques) who knows an awful lot about the whys-and-what-for’s of the pap smear regime, I am disgusted at how women are led around by their nose by articles such as yours, by organisations, Papscreen, the Cancer Council, and the government. Cervical cancer screening via pap smears has never met the full requirements of a national screening program; the requirements being-

      1. Is the problem common? No, cervical cancer occurs in less than 0.72% of the total population. That’s approx. 500 to 700 women in Australia per year. More women die from brain tumors in australia (600 to 800) than from cervical cancer, yet doctors scoff when we worry about brain tumors, telling us they are too rare to worry about.

      2. Is the test reliable? No, the pap smear is highly inaccurate, which is why doctors recommend testing at two yearly intervals, in case they miss it the first time! Most studies give accuracy figures of less than 50%. The CSA blood test (Cervical Specific Antigen) has a reported accuracy of over 90%, yet we’re still forcing women to chuck their underpants and spread their legs for a highly invasive, inaccurate and humiliating test because the AMA and Australian Government refuse to seriously consider the use of the CSA test. Pap smears have a high false positive rate – at least one in three abnormal smears (most often in younger women) are false positives! It is also know that the pathological labs are ‘pushed’ into upping their ‘abnormal smear’ return rate. In other words, they are looking to declare as many smears as possible as suspect because of financial and government pressure, leading to colposcopy, biopsy and cervical damage.

      3. Is the test easily accepted by most of the targeted population? Not really. Telling a woman to remove her pants and allow a stranger to sit between her spread open legs and forcibly and painfully spread open her private parts is not in ANY way acceptable.

      4. Is it low cost? On this one, financially yes, but the physical and mental cost is far too high.

      5. Can it be applied without using specialist equipment? Another yes. Any doctors surgery can do it.

      6. Is there a financial incentive? YES. Doctors do NOT disclose their financial interest in getting women to have pap smears. Under the PIP (Pap smear Incentive Program) doctors recieve bonuses to test women regularly, and they receive an even higher bonus if they get a woman to screen if she hasn’t had a test for the last five years. Conflict of interest, much?

      Why am I writing all of this? Because I have come across so many women – including myelf – who have been ridiculed, physically abused, threatened, ignored, denied medical treatment, had their cervix mutilated beyond normal correct function when there was nothing wrong with them and it was justified as ‘just in case’, left psychologically damaged, and carried feelings similar to having been raped all over the subject of doctors and their weapon of choice in womens healthcare – the pap smear.

      And yet, the pap smear war machine rolls on….


      • adawells says:

        An excellent letter. Thank you so much for posting this. It is wonderful news that so many Aussie women are making their feelings felt and are steering clear of screening.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        OzPhoenix, you write very well, your words are music to my ears. I love to meet informed woman and you’re Australian as well. I have to say I sometimes despair, so many of our women just accept the screening “story”. Critical discussion is non-existent here, we’re a long way behind the UK, The Netherlands, Finland etc.
        Can you imagine one of our female GPs publicly stating she doesn’t have pap tests or mammograms? What?? She’d be torn to shreds.
        Well, the Scottish GP and advocate for informed consent, Dr Margaret McCartney, did just that…amazing.

        Why is it so shocking for women to speak honestly about this subject? Why are we viewed as a herd to be screened at any cost, rather than individuals with the legal right to real information and informed consent, and that includes a No, thank you to pap testing and mammograms. (with no need for further explanation, no “excuses” necessary)

        It speaks volumes for me, if this test is so great, why the sensitivity, the secrecy, the pressure, hysteria, deception and unethical and illegal tactics to get us screened? Why is there no respect for informed consent?
        IMO, they KNEW this program could not work IF they respected informed consent, too many women would say No…and then they found even consent itself got in the way, so they ditched that as well, and tied the test to the Pill, pre-natal care and introduced target payments. I consider this medical abuse, not cancer screening.

        Is this really the way the medical profession and others treat women? Hard to believe, but yes, it is.
        Welcome to the forum, keep stirring the pot…more and more women are starting to listen, let’s face it for decades there was silence when it came to critical discussion or even honest life experience that cast pap testing in a poor light. I think these programs must be worried, more and more women are onto them, they can stop us commenting on their sites, but they can’t silence us anymore.

      • F.L. says:


        Wow – what a great letter! It’s wonderful to see such a concise, clear, and accurate dissection of the propaganda/misinformation campaign. I wish I could write something that does even half as good a job of putting facts out there to counter the myths.

        I agree the financial cost appears relatively inexpensive, but perhaps there is an argument to be made that:
        * the cost per/person needs to be multiplied by the continued overuse of the test x amount of physician billing fee/test (+ incentives) x number of false positives leading to additional/more expensive testing x physician costs associated with these tests = ridiculous amount of money spent
        * the cost/person might be much less if self-test options were made available
        * the costs should include a cost-benefit analysis that factored in the harm-related costs of direct negative impacts from using this inaccurate test on women as well as the indirect costs to the effectiveness/efficiency of the health care system that spends so much physician time/money on this that it lacks resources to take on more common and treatable health care concerns.

        Anyway, as you say, regardless of the financial cost, the mental and physical costs are far too high. Your letter was just awesome and I’m not surprised there was no reply or rebuttal – what could Amy say in the face of the facts?

  9. Kai says:

    Was just thinking that you should make a Tumblr. I have trouble finding any skepticism of the gynecological field to reblog, only “omigod that hurt and was humiliating BUT gotta do it again next year”. Tumblr has a massive audience that needs to be reached. Dx

    • Alex says:

      I don’t get something: Why is it that women are able to think in terms of whether or not they’ll get married or have kids, but think “need/must/have to” when it comes to problematic things with doctors? It doesn’t only have to be things that are against the grain on a sexual dissonance level, it could be because of pain or low utility- it could simply be not being conducted by someone else.

      I don’t get that. I’ve been told that women are usually raised differently than men & are more or less taught “not to make waves,” but what sense is that? She’s not making waves in order to NOT have problems- it’s like pouring gas on a fire in order to make it smaller. Isn’t it women that generally point those things out? I don’t get why a woman is down-trodden if she cooks, cleans, or does any of the other “traditional” things that women would do, but it’s somehow mature & sophisticated for her to be of the mind that other people make their own decisions about what goes in where on her.

      • bethkz says:

        You’re right Alex. It makes no sense whatsoever that women somehow think they’re modern, liberated, and sophisticated to give over the decision over what or who goes in here or when on her, while they think that it’s demeaning and old-fashioned to allow someone else who they chose to put in that position to make the decisions over how or where she lives, where she can go or how she can go there, what she can buy, how money he makes will be spent. The very same people are for marital rape laws – where this person who is making all of the rules cannot decide FOR HER when or how to penetrate her as are the ones demanding their “right” to have “women’s health”, where their doctor is deciding for her when or how to penetrate her.

        Either a women has the final decision over what or who goes into her body or she does not.


      • Moo says:

        Most girls are taught not to look down there or to “touch themselves”. The proper names for body parts are not taught to them just bum and “bum front” or ” dink” or “cookie”. Maybe more liberal parents taught them “vagina” but not any other part’s name.

        Why do other women say “ehhh, gross” when I suggest that they purchase a speculum, get a flashlight and mirror and some vinegar and look at their own cervix. I even found a link for a speculum camera that hooks up to for closed circuit tv for vagina/cervix viewing. It could be that medications and simple treatments be made available for women to use at home in privacy as well as for testing kits.

        There is no reason why everything done there be viewed by “professionals only”. I find from hair removal to child rearing everything is promoted as needing a professional to take care of it. The more professional we involve in our lives the costs are high to our bank accounts and privacy.

        Marketing exploits people’s needs and often creates a needs when technology or a product is available. What role should marketing play in the medical field?

      • Kai says:

        I’d rather it not be viewed by anyone, including myself. The “real” terms for things make me gag. They’re too stuffy, reminiscent of that abstinence class we had every year at my school. Humanity could’ve thought up better names for our body parts. I can’t even bring myself to say “vagina” out loud without feeling like a prude, only “vag”, and I NEVER say “penis”, “anus”, or “testes”. Dx I don’t even like typing them out.

      • Kai says:

        I have no clue. I personally enjoy those “traditional” tasks; sewing, cooking (not so much cleaning), sewing, gardening, soapmaking, and friggin basket weaving all soothe me. But I also do 160 each pushups and situps a day and I will be damned if any man, woman, or “authority” figure tells me what to do or not do to my body. “Oh but you NEED to be violated by a medical beast in rubber gloves or you’ll die from a relatively rare form of cancer that I should know by now that you wouldn’t seek treatment for anyways because you don’t believe in manmade medicine. It’s selfish if you don’t because people don’t want you to die but it’s not selfish of them to look down on your beliefs.” One of my friends thinks mammograms, pelvic exams, prostate exams, and colonoscopies should be required by law. We aren’t talking much lately.

      • Cat&Mouse says:


        There’s one place where doctors feel they have the right, and by law they do. It’s the delivery room. The instant a woman or parents-immediately-to-be question a decision, they have the rug ripped out below. The husband is made to leave. Automatic report to CPS. Baby won’t go home. Then lesbian social workers who view every family as malignant. Lawyers, foster care “erring for the child,” divorce, bankruptcy. A family dependent on the system. Unfortunately, at that moment women are full of oxytocin, and that makes us compliant and wanting to stop conflict so we can soothe and nurture our babies. Leave it to do-gooding doctors and nurses to ruin it for both parents. And the law encourages it. We’ve all read here how a woman refusing paps finds herself, father too, in this situation and worse.

      • bethkz says:

        There are no laws that require that all babies be born in the hospital, nor can there be. Women don’t always get to hospitals in time – labor goes faster than they think. Lots of kids are named after the cab driver who delivered them. :)

        Certified Nurse Midwives are legal in all 50 US States, and all nations in the EU have “Midwife Corps” that deliver most babies at home. Certified Nurse Midwives give prenatal care, delivery, and postnatal care – which can include things like help with breastfeeding issues. Midwives consistently show lower maternal and infant mortality rates.

        Birth certificates can be issued without a hospital involved. So can birth announcements be taken by newspapers by individuals.

        There are no laws requiring paps for pregnant women. Anyone who tries to tell you that there are is BSing you. For one thing, even the manufacturers of those products used state that they have high numbers of false positives in pregnant women. Pap testing has been associated with miscarriage.

        Sure, medical professionals can call CPS. There is no reason for it, and CPS is catching on. If they remove the child for the ONLY reason being that he or she was born at home without an obstetrician, with no other evidence for abuse or neglect, the parent has grounds for a HUGE lawsuit.

        Medical people like to use the laws as they are NOT written, and threats of various sorts of legal actions in order to get their way. Most of their claims are devoid of facts.

      • Alex says:

        Cat & Mouse: Honestly, whether or not she’d have the baby naturally is a big concern for me as far as prospective wives or girlfriends go. These reasons are big parts of it. There’s a million things that can make the kid deformed or retarded (or both), that can give her injuries or infections (or both), and any or all of this can be from something that was against her objections or from objectionable situations.

        I remember an article I was reading about a woman that had a QUADRUPLE AMPUTATION because she caught something in the hospital (don’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something that people get from being in the hospital pretty frequently- some type of strep or staph infection). She was in the hosptial to deliver a baby, they wanted her to stay an extra 12 days or so, then she came down with this & wouldn’t tell her how it happened!

        Sounds to me like they were trying to cover their ass- maybe it would be interesting to know for a lot of women & the men they’re with that infections can be introduced by all kinds of procedures & that plenty of them are worthless, anyway. Maybe checking dialation (which doesn’t actually mean when the baby’s coming- it’s just bullshit that made it’s way into tradition that they don’t want to change) introduced bacteria into her system? Maybe they decided to start slicing & there was a problem from this?

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Bethkz, Alex,

        If I had my choice, I’d do water birth. Incidentally, it’s also the one method that doctors hate most, and that offers women the best chance at a natural birth.

        This year in PA USA there was a couple who had their baby at home this way. Days later they decided to have the infant checked out. Their mistake was going to an ER. Quickly, they were isolated away, and the mother was not allowed to nurse the screaming baby. Staff refused to provide the papers for a birth certificate. Then an ambulance called to transport the baby to a children’s hospital. Many hours later, they got home. Then the bills came in. $3,200 for the ambulance alone. Then CPS comes knocking. The SW threatened additional actions if she wasn’t allowed in. Her cause for concern? That non-appropriate birthing was performed and that the kid was at additional risk… Another case; of delivery room staff gone berserk. Calling CPS when mother refused to automatically sign over permission at admission allowing c-section. Doctors felt they weren’t fit parents. The baby was held from going home until CPS ran the parents through the system.

        Sure, both parties had excellent cause for suing CPS and the hospital. However, reporting parties are immune from civil suit. And up front attorney’s fees of $500 per hour on new parents?

        Regarding hospital infections. Like Joan Rivers dying due to a mistake, you’re exactly right how infections get going. Staff cuts and lousy cleaning regimens. Dirty doorknobs. Poor hand washing. I think I wrote here of my hubby’s hernia operation. He was sedated but not out. The nurses came back from lunch and removed his gown to shave etc. Only we did all that at home, and cleaned everything using Hibiclens. Can’t believe the nurses didn’t notice that right away.

        He says one took out a razor anyway, and proceeded to drop it twice. The first time it hit the tray, she just picked it up and kept going. The second it bounced around onto the floor. The nurse joked about the three second rule and picked it up to reuse anyway. When we’re unconscious, God only knows what happens and what we get infected with.

      • bethkz says:

        Certified nurse midwives are legal in all 50 US States. Most other civilized countries have midwife corps, which deliver most babies, since hospitals are rarely needed in connection with childbirth, and in and of themselves pose risks to mother and baby. Also, there are always births which end up being without medical personel present – often by error in timing, inability to transport, or the rare case where women painlessly give birth in their sleep.

        All States, and I don’t know the law of other countries, require that silver nitrate drops be put into the baby’s eyes after birth – and there’s a timeframe in which that is required. Failing to do that MIGHT run you afoul of CPS, but it does NOT have to be done in a hospital. It can be done by a health department nurse or any physician.

        Births are required to be registered within a period of time. It is NOT the hospital’s responsibility to file this paperwork on a birth that they did not oversee. If they did, it would be them making false official statements. That is done by county and state bureaucrats, and someone who was present at (or near) the time of birth, who has actual information, makes out the paperwork in a county office. They may have some problems with it, since most of them are done by hospitals, who make out the paperwork and deliver it in batches to the county. You might have to push them, but it will be done.

        Babies can be checked out by doctors or other medical personnel outside of hospitals. As it’s NOT a medical emergency, that is not an appropriate use for medical services. If someone has a problem with a newborn baby which requires emergency services days after it’s born, there may BE a problem with medical neglect. In emergency departments, they’re going to be on the lookout for it, and are more likely to suspect something than if someone goes in to an appointment or a walk-in clinic.

        Medical personnel are infamous for making false threats that have no basis in reality. While they cannot be sued civilly for making a false claim, making false official statements is a federal crime which includes prison time. Most of these statements are not an error in judgement, but are knowingly false.

        New parents might have a stretch in hiring a lawyer, but as making false official statements is a CRIME, those are prosecuted by prosecutors on the State payroll. If they want a civil suit too, most of the attorneys that pursue civil suits do it on contingency – there is nothing owed until and unless they get a settlement. The amount/percentage the attorneys take is often quite substantial, but that’s a different problem.

        Assault is assault is assault. It doesn’t change just because the woman is pregnant or in labor – although it might become an aggravating factor, and if injury occurs to the foetus, the baby may be a second victim after its born. A doctor going after a pregnant woman with a knife with her screaming, “No No No” is not different than a robber or other criminal going after her with a knife – it’s assault with a deadly weapon.

        Another avenue is to turn birth-rape or assaults or false official statements surrounding a birth over to an investigative reporter at a TV station or newspaper. Then, the rules, laws, and practices will be brought before the public. If it’s obviously wrong, the public will demand that things be changed.

        I learned some time ago that (I) get nowhere trying to convince the medical industry or their employees that something is just wrong. Object, refuse, don’t even deal with them. If something goes wrong, use the other avenues which are available – including the legal system and bring it to public notice.

    • Alex says:

      Kai: You do 160 push-ups & 160 sit-ups a day?! Wow. That’s impressive. I might suggest increasing the intensity, but decreasing the number. You know why? It’s because adding reps at the same intensity will only give you DISTANCE at that level. If you add intensity, you get that distance (because the lighter stuff is easier), and joint solidity (hugely important for not falling apart as you get older, but also for wrestling & fighting- because these things come up unexpectedly). You won’t get all big & Vin Diesel-looking, because women don’t have as much testosterone & she won’t

      You want to know about something? There’s a series of books by Paul Wade (the Convict Conditioning series- I know, it’s a gimicky title, but “Progressive Calisthenics” doesn’t sound as good & he DID supposedly learn all this in prison). AWESOME! C-Mass is actually more for guys, but it mentions a bunch of things about bio-mechanics & such. If you go on Dragondoor.com, you’ll notice quite a bit about it in the forum & there’s a new one coming out in 2015 (about January, I think).

      There’s also the Systema Manual, but I don’t have that yet. If you look up Systema & Systema exercises, you’ll probably get a good idea of what the book gets into. I’ve noticed that that art hits the “diagonal strength” as well as the regular stuff (all the in-between things that don’t always get hit, but do tend to get injured). It also gets into how to use it (styles of breathing to not get tired, coordination, smoothly going from one thing to another, etc…) . It’s interesting, but hard for me to explain & I don’t actually have the book in my hands (I’m waiting until they come out with the new DVD in October on how to deal with Mass Attacks & such- keep in mind that the DVDs are good, but give more of a summary than an A-Z).

      I know this is MASSIVELY off-topic from what’s usually talked about on this site, but I figured you’d be interested. I’d definitely take less time & wouldn’t be as tedious as I remember 100+ of anything being. You’d also be able to knock a lot of this out without equipment, a major plus.

  10. Ro says:

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=dQXYXY5GCi4 Someone suggested that I watch this, and I haven’t made it all the way through yet as I’m personally not one to spend a long time in front of the computer. That being said, so far, this is a great documentary about yet another safe and effective cancer treatment being battled by the medical industry and covered up. If you’re interested in this sort of thing or just want to become more informed, I definitely recommend watching it.

  11. Ro says:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/24/state-farm-drops-rob-schneider-over-anti-vaccine-v/ And so it continues. Anyone who goes against the grain will lose their job if they have any sort of interaction with the public. So much for free speech and all that, right?

    (Also, a side note for Sue: for some reason, two of my comments from September 3rd seem to keep jumping down to the end of the discussion forum for some reason. Would you mind deleting them? As I’m sure it’s aggravating for not only me, but everyone else who comments.)

  12. IMustBeSurrounded says:

    Ok – now I am getting thoroughly annoyed.

    A few weeks ago on a Friday night at 6:45, I was at the bar with my boyfriend. We were finally getting relaxed after a long week at work. My boyfriend stepped out to take a call – and then my phone rang. It was a number I didn’t recognize, so I let it go to voicemail. Since my bf wasn’t back yet, I decided to check the message.

    It was a long-winded message from my Health Insurance Company telling me about the importance of “Pap Screening” and “Well Woman Exams.” Since then – I’ve received two post cards in the mail with the same messages on them. Barf.

    When he came back in, I threw my phone down so it skidded across the bar and I go “You won’t BELIEVE THE VOICE MAIL I JUST GOT!” I then, ordered another tequila.

    I also blocked their number.

    It’s interesting to me that the American Insurance Companies are so vested in these Well Woman exams. I am assuming it’s because of the belief (not that I share this belief) that early testing saves lives and therefore will save them money in the future. But is that really the motivation? Does anyone else know why the Insurance Company would be so interested in my cervix (and the cervix of every other woman under their care?)

    They, after all, would have to foot the bills (or a portion of them) for testing, follow ups, “treatment” etc.

    If you have any thoughts or info on this – it would be appreciated!

    I also wonder how far this harassment will go. Will they threaten to drop me unless I spread my legs? Can they? I would imagine not – but I am also not in the mood for an argument.

    Thanks so much! I look at these boards every day – I just don’t get the opportunity to post as much as I like, but I admire all of you.

    Have a great weekend.

    • bethkz says:

      Depending on what is on those post cards, it could well violate the HIPPA laws. A post card is not private mail. It is public in that it is readable by anyone who looks at that post card. If they are putting ANY identifiable information about you, any (potential/presumed) health information on that card – even that you have failed to have a PAP test within some period of time, they have broken the law. You can have them prosecuted, and possibly sue for damages.

  13. IMustBeSurrounded says:

    HMMM Something interesting I found – a woman went to get the Well Woman Exam and had to sign a form – and an interesting tidbit on the form said…(oh, btw – this is under the new ACA/Obamacare rules)

    “If a problem such as a breast lump is found at your ‘annual exam’, the exam is no longer considered by the AMA guidelines as an annual exam.” Such an instance would constitute a “problem visit[s] and will be coded accordingly.”

    Also, if a woman asks questions during her Well Woman exam – the exam could also turn into a “Problem Visit” and be coded differently – she would therefore get billed for an exam that is supposed to be free.

    Don’t quote me on this – but if you go in for your exam, and the doctor finds something suspicious, then the “free” well woman exam is negated and she therefore pays a good chunk of change because they found something they wouldn’t have found otherwise. Therefore, the “free” exam to help her “detect things early” is already costing money. How many times are things found that turn out to be “nothing” or totally benign?

    AND forget asking questions during the exam – the cash register will start to ring again!
    I could be wrong on this – so please don’t quote me and please ask for clarification if you do go to the doctors.

    But wow -if I am understanding this correctly…I am really shaking my head.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Thinking back, I remember how Democrats like Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein all demanded ObamaCare be approved before any review & discussion of whatever it was occurred. Many tries died printing the stacks this bill represents. Many miscreants thought free boob jobs would soon be coming down the line. Then reality hit.

      Doctors refused to sign up on the plan. Deductibles of $8-10,000 cash up front would have to be paid before any plan benefits would kick in. No doctor wants that robbery bait in their office, and no patient on ObummerCare has the cash to get the care. Bait and switch. Lies.

      What you found does not surprise me in the least. Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, this will not make the evening network news, nor any magazine like Time as USA’s media is totally entrenched supporting this platform. Another juicy tidbit, 70% of illegal aliens Obama encouraged to jump the fence have avoided reporting to the government. There’s a terrible new upper respiratory virus going around which originates from South America. This is nothing like the refugees USA took in from Vietnam and other places that want to be American. Instead, where I live one can find signs saying “Aztlan” which represents the name illegals will call the desert SouthWest USA states after they take it back.

      It would be one thing if my current government was truthful in its representation and dealmaking. But for 8 yrs now, it’s one new nauseating revelation after another. We are seeing USA go through profound changes, and none of them are good. The Isaiah Harbinger comes to mind.

      In an earlier message, I talked about the gynecological tests & treatments I’ve had. No informed consent, no alternatives, just rushed through on fear of a painful death. Retrospectively, so much pain I’ve endured, fear I’ve felt, and arguments about what to do next. I feel betrayed. Thank God for this sight, that I can do something so others may not have to follow in my footsteps.

    • Moo says:

      This article might explain the difference in billing and why the push is for paps and breast exams. The well woman exam is different from another type of physical exam.


  14. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    That’s why these sites are viewed as a real threat, not only can you access real information, this site is full of survivors of medical abuse, this group of women have been shoved into the background…..until now. This huge group is not good for business.
    This sort of site is still rare, almost all sites are propaganda based, full of “if not for that pap test I’d be dead” stories or “every woman in my family has had cervical cancer”…I consider these sites an insult to our intelligence. The scary wolf story is still the preferred way to sell screening to women.

    The Blogcritics thread disappeared, we were reassured it would return, still nothing. I now believe they were pressured to close the thread, or rewarded for doing so, or threatened, perhaps, warned the site was dangerous and might lead to deaths. We always hear those arguments…it says a lot, open and frank discussion on this subject is a major threat, it may inform women and we know what happens then, we can take control of our bodies and make informed healthcare/life decisions.
    We’ve always been “managed” as a herd, that doesn’t work when women are permitted to act as individuals, that triggers informed consent, as we know, this testing would fail if women were treated legally, respectfully and within proper ethical guidelines. Take away the propaganda, coercion, pressure, vested interests, targets…and these screening programs/wellness programs fall over. (that includes well woman exams and breast screening)

    • IMustBeSurrounded says:

      Thank you so much to Elizabeth and Cat and Mouse!

      Elizabeth – regarding these sites – you are so right.

      This leads me to the story of why I came here.

      A year and a half ago, I went to the doctor for this hideous looking skin tag (please excuse the TMI). I had no idea what it was, so I wanted to get it looked at.

      I go in, and the nurse who checks me in (notice the nurse or medical assistant who checks you in asks the same questions the doctor is going to ask 5 minutes later…what is that?) she goes “You haven’t had a pap since 1996 (or some year a long time ago)” I say “Uh…yeah I have” And this nurse seems frustrated and disgusted by my lack of pap. Me, thinking that these tests are still important take her frustration as somehow caring about my health (at the same time I did find her bitchy and distasteful)

      Then the nurse practitioner comes in. Before we EVER get to my skin tag – she goes “well, you’re not really a frequent flier here and you need to make an appointment to come back for your pap and breast exam and you know – all of that girly stuff” (ew) She then begins a litany of questions about my family history of cancer etc (which I dutifully answer)

      THEN – she cuts me a deal. She says “If you come back for your pap, I will remove the skin tag for free and any other ones too. If I do it today, I have to charge you” I agree to come back for the pap and free removal…but then I start to think…what is the big deal about the pap test?

      It was when I was in that very room (I don’t know where the nurse practitioner had gone – but she had left) that I googled “Unnecessary Pap Smears” on my Smart Phone…and the Blog critics site came up. I then proceeded to read all 10,000 comments (which took several weeks)

      A couple of days later – the skin tag fell off! I think ti was committing suicide after the ridiculous conversations it heard between myself and the nurse and nurse practitioner.

      A few weeks after that I get a bill for $200+ dollars! TO look at a SKIN TAG? Seriously? It turns out because of the litany of questions that the nurse practitioner asked me that the appointment got “coded up.” I found this out after asking a friend of mine who has been in medical billing and coding for a long time. I called the doctors office and had the code changed and saved about 100 bucks. That being said, 100 bucks is a lot of money to look at a skin tag that was going to jump to it’s death anyway.

      Fast forward – our health insurance changes and my doctor changes. I make an appointment to go in about a dark spot on my face (which also turned out to be nothing and disappeared after awhile) I have an appointment with another nurse practitioner. Being a new patient, I was willing to tolerate some health history and question asking.

      Well – what is the FIRST THING she asks me? “When was your last pap?” I say “2009” She says “Well, you are supposed to get it every three years” (yes, the phrase “Supposed to” was used) I looked at her and said “I am a low-risk woman who has made an informed decision not to get one” She said “Oh. Ok” I was blown away at how easy that was. She then says “Well you will want to make a yearly physical to get a breast exam etc” I didn’t argue that point…I am simply not going to make an appointment like that unless I suspect a problem.

      I would like to thank the women on boards like this that not only informed me – but let me know what to do in this situation.

      So – this moves me to what I should do next. I requested all of my medical records from my last doctor in hard copy. They were no problem to get. I had two abnormal paps and I am certain it’s because I had sex too close to the test! (Do you notice they never tell you not to do that too close to the test?) I had one colposcopy where they found nothing.

      On my digital records that I can access online it says the 2009 pap was abnormal – but I swear it was normal (so I am wondering if they don’t have the most current one there?)

      I like the idea of the self administered HPV test…but if I have HPV…what do I plan to do about it? The idea that the HPV could develop into cervical cancer seems like a rarity, based on my research. I have NO symptoms of cervical issues either.

      I am inclined to continue to decline tests (inclined to decline!) But any thoughts on this would be appreciated as well.

      WOW I am long winded today! Sorry – my apologies! It’s my first evening to myself in a LONG time!

      • bethkz says:

        I’m not sure what you CAN do at this point about the past so-called abnormal pap tests.

        This illustrates one danger of having these tests. If they come back abnormal – as 77% of women can expect to have happen at least once in her lifetime – the “fact” of your then being at “high risk” for cancer trumps every other health concern for which you may see a medical provider for the rest of your life! They will have an additional set of rhetoric to give you to pressure you into having another pap test.

        Such information will likely be put in databases such that it will be difficult or impossible to get certain other insurances – like life insurance, disability insurance, possibly turned down for a job for which you are otherwise qualified for. If you’re “noncompliant” with their “watch and wait” ideas on your potentially having cancer, as evidenced by the previously-positive pap tests, it goes even more against you.

        If somebody really wants to hound you, they can use your “noncompliance” on things which will certainly “save your life” as evidence to show that you’re depressed, (passively) suicidal, and somewhat unhinged and probably mentally ill – and certainly in need of hundreds of dollars per month in mental health drugs which have their own sets of life-threatening and violent side effects – and probably in need of some in-patient care – for which they will be paid handsomely.

        These are MORE risks of having these tests!

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        It’s interesting to hear what triggers women to look for answers or a safe place to vent, often it’s being sick to death of bullying tactics, after being coerced into testing or denied the Pill or non-emergency medical care because they declined a pap test. Also, after a bad pap test experience, an excess biopsy or “treatment”, being left with a damaged cervix and having a miscarriage or premature baby or simply working out the focus and hysteria about this cancer and testing makes no sense. I’ve heard them all over the years.
        Of course, the official discourse provides us with no real answers, that’s a deliberate strategy, we get a screening “story”. They know it’s much harder to fend off medical pressure when you don’t have access to real/balanced information, when choice/informed consent/consent is not respected for women.
        If women could access the information they need before this testing starts, I believe we’d have a lot more healthy and happy women. The damage caused to women by these programs is common, awful and mostly avoidable.

        I think you’re wise considering the consequences of a screening test at the very beginning, we’re told the pap test is easy, simple and reliable, oh, and life-saving, but they don’t tell us the cancer is rare and the test often leads to grief. So many women over-treated and left with permanent damage, both emotional and physical.
        The so-called simple CA-125 blood test for ovarian cancer is anything but, it’s highly unreliable and can lead to unnecessary surgery. No thanks.
        The invasiveness of the pap test and the fact almost all doctors were male in the late 70s prompted me to go looking for answers, what sort of risk was I taking rejecting this test? I fear if the test had been non-invasive, would I have been sucked into the pap testing abyss? Once you get that “abnormal” result the conveyer belt starts and at that point many women are scared to death…so it’s colposcopy, biopsy, perhaps, a “treatment” and then more pap testing etc.
        So I’m cautious with all screening tests. We should remember even self-testing options can lead to the same ugly and harmful places. Some people choose not to have a screening colonoscopy for bowel cancer, but might self-screen using the FOBT, IF however, the result is positive, the next step is the colonoscopy. So you have to really think about these tests at the outset.

        My advice: ask yourself: is this test in MY best interests? What happens if the test is abnormal? (or I’m HPV+ or blood is detected on the FOBT) These issues cut across all screening tests. What now?
        If we don’t have a clear plan in mind, fear and uncertainty may push us down the path to day procedure, surgery etc. So IMO, we should be “prepared” for negative test results IF we choose to have these tests and exams. Know what you’re accepting and where it can lead, it’s not an exaggeration to say that a simple screening test can end up taking your life. (for example: breast screening can lead to over-diagnosis, and over-treatment can lead to heart attacks and lung cancer)

        If a woman tests HPV+ here (under our new program) and there will be lots, about 40% of those who test aged 25 to 29, and about 5% of those aged 30 to 74, (we plan on HPV testing from age 25 when HPV testing should not be used before age 30) she’ll probably be referred for immediate colposcopy and biopsy.
        HPV self-testing may be viewed as a better option, but can still land us in the same place, HPV+, what now?
        So even HPV self-testing should only be used appropriately (the safest course IMO, is the new Dutch program, HPV primary or self testing at ages 30,35,40,50 and 60) and with a clear understanding of what you’ll do if you’re HPV+
        The Dutch will simply offer the roughly 5% of HPV+ women aged 30 to 60 a 5 yearly pap test. (until they clear the virus)

        The rest comes down to risk, how much risk, and type of risk, are you prepared to carry in your life or accept with testing? For me the risk of cc is so low, I’m simply not interested in accepting much risk at all to screen for a rare event, others may feel differently. (I’m also, confident I’m HPV-) I’ve never had a pap test and won’t be testing for HPV. (and I’m 56)
        Here the lifetime risk of cc is 0.65%, the lifetime risk of colposcopy/biopsy is 77%…I rest my case. Easy decision, and when you’re informed, the propaganda bounces off you. Fear, uncertainty and confusion often makes women screen AND keeps them in these programs.

        You’re right, most HPV+ women will simply clear the virus in a year or so, so only a small number of the 5% who test HPV+ between ages 30 to 60 would go on to develop invasive cervical cancer, but these are also, the women with a small chance of benefiting…so it depends on the individual and how comfortable they feel carrying risk…from the disease and testing.
        Certainly women worried about this rare cancer have an alternative to frequent pap testing and most will find they’re not even at risk and cannot benefit from pap testing. Those who want to test should at least establish their HPV status before agreeing to pap testing…and if they’re HPV+ avoid over-pap screening and being rushed into colposcopy and biopsy.
        If a woman is HPV+ and ALSO, produces an abnormal pap test, say CIN 2 or 3, then she can consider her options.
        The best approach IMO, is to think ahead, there is no such thing as a simple screening test. (aside from perhaps, blood pressure screening and even then, we have to be careful taking medication we may not need, that may produce side effects etc.)
        Don’t worry about being long winded, I take 1st prize every time, especially when we’re talking about these subjects.

  15. Alex says:

    I was just wondering something: I know women are generally more conflict-averse than men, but doesn;t getting hounded like this come off as threatening? I’d think it’d be like a guy getting very bossy on the street. Kind of a “Hey, you’re coming with me” type of thing that isn’t meant as a joke or flirtation.

    I mean it gets to the point where someone DOES actually have to worry about them trying to work their will through whatever agencies they decide to call up & connect the dots to. I could see them trying to take someone’s kids away if those kids having had all kinds of probing done- they deem anything & everything an unsafe environment, so I’d imagine the doctor trying this angle, then getting shut down & calling for help.

    Have to say: That kind of base-minded style of thinking (that they’re trying to exert themselves & someone else blocks it- so now they’re all offended in some weird primal way, like a fake life-or-death concern) is something that is the same as a drunken rage or an egotistical nutjob with a gun. It doesn’t matter if every fiber of someone’s being is behind them trying to start shit with other people, they’re still of low-quality & are an enemy for it.

    At the end of the day, there’s no way to say something so that you can “prove” righteousness or not. This is because there’s no way to say anything so that somebody else can’t lie or twist your words & at some point language has to connect to something. Ultimately, someone can just say “I know it’s a problem, but I like problems” or just engage in an action without saying anything. I’ve developed a saying: “Fucked-up shit grows BEETER in the darkness- but it’ll grow in the light, too.”

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