Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog. (click on title or graphic to go to comments)

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Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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2,876 Responses to Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

  1. ADM says:

    New article results in the BMJ:
    “Why cancer screening has never been shown to “save lives”—and what we can do about it”

  2. kleigh us says:

    I visited my brother and sister in-law out of town. Well we were talking and my brother made a comment saying his wife is always going to the doctors “because she is a girl.” He also said that he had not had a physical since leaving the military about six years ago. He said my sister in-law “made him go and have a physical.”. Nothing was found wrong. I love my sister in law but it erks me how she trys to push her beliefs of on others. When I was there I skipped two days of showering because I wasn’t feeling well. She keep telling me I had too have a bath. I’m not around many woman but I notice there is a common way of thinking with a lot of woman , they seem to know what’s best for others and I hear things like you ” have to have paps. You have to bath and wash your hair every day.” What happen to people minding there own bussness. It just erks me.

  3. Linda says:

    Hi. There is an add at the moment on Brit TV showing a women getting the all clear for CC from her Doc. He tells her that it was fortunate becasue she overcame her fear of smears to have one just in time. Her husband it sitting next to her nodding as if somehow taking the credit for convincing her to go.

    Beginning in St Helens and the surrounding areas in March there is to be a campaign putting reminders to go have smears on all the till receipts from local £1 shops. Apparently the Liverpool districts have the lowest uptae in Britain. They aren’t stupid or just not getting the message – they think for themselves. I know Liverpool people. They won’t take any rubbish as they think for themselves.

    • Alex says:

      Freakish! Why shouldn’t they be afraid of these procedures? It’s not all that safe or accurate (numerous risks can be realized, including loss of life/fertility/functions/etc…).

      It’s not impossible for any of these people, certified or not, to simply attack someone & use the means at their occupational disposal to do it.

      It’s potentially in the best interest of the medical personnel to actually DO harm or at least lie about a problem until it progresses to a severe level, so that way they can “treat” these conditions for fun or profit (or both). Not to mention that sometimes people don’t question the pedestal they’re put on & only polish it- thus, they’re not going to be too quick to catch any of the issues that are present with their doctrine.

      Liverpool sounds more interesting than some other areas of the UK (I hear there’s this new place called “Londonistan”).

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      I just posted this:

      “Thanks, Anne
      Also, are you aware of this ad?
      It was mentioned by a UK woman on a forum for people concerned about the current approach and conduct of women’s cancer screening programs.
      “There is an ad at the moment on Brit TV showing a women getting the all clear for CC from her Doc. He tells her that it was fortunate she overcame her fear of smears to have one just in time. Her husband it sitting next to her nodding as if somehow taking the credit for convincing her to go.”

      Does this ad respect informed consent? Does it convey information on the risks and actual benefits of cervical screening? Does it respect choice?
      We’re being told informed consent matters for women, yet we continue to see this sort of campaign, I call them scare campaigns.

      Or, this: “My Mum missed her smear, now I miss my Mum” (says a young child)
      We can “talk” about informed consent, but until the scare campaigns stop, IMO, it says to me there is no respect for informed consent.”

      * hope you don’t mind Linda, I didn’t mention your name or this website, but if she’s at all concerned about informed consent, the scare campaigns have to stop

      • linda says:

        Hi Eliz. Don’t worry about using my name. I have been lobbying all sorts of groups just recently using my married surname. Its like I’m ‘coming out of the closet’ I want to make a stand against this and I can’t continue to hide using just my first name ‘linda’ or any other psueado.

        I have given it in the comments section of the statistics site Ada posted. Perhaps my doctors will see it. Who cares?

      • adawells says:

        The minutes of the latest meeting of the UK National Screening Committee have just been posted, and unfortunately, they announce no changes at all to our Screening programme except to say that the test will change to HPV primary testing. It doesn’t say when this will happen, so sadly it looks like the UK will still be running its 3 yearly tests when other countries will have moved on to 5 yearly tests.
        A big disappointment.

  4. katrehman says:

    May I suggest we find out who to complain to…the broadcasting authority?? And bombard them with complaints? It’s absolutely ludicrous and there must be something we can do. Still guess it proves they’re getting desperate…

    • adawells says:

      Kat I think that is what we must do. These people think that running these campaigns will make them popular, and I think it’s important to let them know that they do not have universal support on this. Only yesterday I got an alert that Dewsbury MP Paula Sherriff asked in the House of Commons about women under 25 being able to get smear tests. I’ll be contacting her and letting her know that a lot of women don’t want this. How many times has this come up already and been spelled out to them, but still these stupid MPs keep trying to pull the “feminist icon’ vote. Those who shout loudest for the cause are the ones who soon stop going for smears, as the ” Jade Goody” followers soon vanished from the statistics after her death.

      • katrehman says:

        Ada its amazing if that’s the word. They got all this money to spend chasing women and advertising on TV about being scored of smears and they spend none of it on improving self testing or urine\blood testing which probably would increase uptake ! Which surely would be a good thing of they are so concerned for women’s risk cc. I’ll leave a comment on the stats site too

      • adawells says:

        Hi Kat,
        Every time I see that comment that women are scared and embarrassed about smear tests it absolutely makes my blood boil. It’s never used about men not wanting to take up the offer of bowel screning. I think they are really concerned about the screening figures dropping lower and lower. The last figures in that brochure I just posted were pre HPV vaccination cohort. I’ve read somewhere that only about 63% of vaccinated 25 year olds attended screening last year, and the older “brainwashed” women who are regular screeners will be dropping off the programme, I would hazard a guess that this time next year, they will struggle to reach the 70% viability target for the programme. I had hoped to see news of what would be hapening over the next 5 years as we have seen in NL and AU, but there have been no announced plans to change the UK programme at all. I saw adverts for the Delphi screener being offered at the reduced introductory offer of 100 pounds, as an incentive to get women to try it. I’m sure I’ve seen alternative HPV home tests cheaper than this, but when I checked recently, they were no longer sending them out separately, you had to go in and get a smear done as part of the package. I think the government would like to shift the whole screening business into private hands, and they were trying to tempt the more wealthy women to go private for their smears and get them off the NHS programme to save money. I don’t know if many women took up the offer. The bottom line is that, women have simply stopped caring about cervical cancer and are fed up with it all. The costly research which has been done, shows that very little actually works to get more people to attend, and the human rights violations of the 1990’s are hopefully a thing of the past, now that we have the internet to access the truth about these programmes.

      • Alice (Australia) says:

        Unfortunately, the medical propaganda machine has a huge momentum. Medical bureaucrats have zero respect for true facts, people’s privacy or choice. The only kind of reply one may get from these parasites is a carefully composed copy-paste letter with the same propagandistic bull$hit the person was complaining about in the first place. The situation is much worse in women’s health care: female medicine has always been used as a source babies for the state, profits for the medical profession, and brownie points for politicians. The true wellbeing of women is its last concern, if a concern at all.

        However, as obtuse, harmful and deceitful the whole system is, it doesn’t mean that we should shut up and give in. If we continue writing, complaining, posting true information and helping poor brainwashed women to see the truth, there is a chance for a change. Perhaps, far away, but there still is a chance. If we give up – that’s it. They will smear us to death.

        I admire Elizabeth’s knowledge and determination. No one can count how many women she already saved from horrors, pain and cervical butchery!

  5. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Anne Mackie says they care about informed consent, yet we continue to see scare campaigns, this is more evidence she says one thing, knowing something completely different is going on…
    Linda, can you give us a link? I’d like to send it to her and ask her to explain how this type of ad respects informed consent, it looks like a scare campaign to me.

  6. Linda says:

    I just can’t make this address into a link for you to access so I have copied the following information.


    Increasing Participation in NHS Cancer Screening …
    Appendix 3: Merseyside Cancer Screening Initiatives …. Till Receipt campaign to raise awareness of the.

    Included is a plan to send postcards out to all the ‘young’ non responders. They also intend giving away nail files with the screening message on them. The till receipt campaign for bowel screening has now finshed but the cervical one commences in March.

    You won’t be aware of this, but there is a bus in the Merseyside area which is found frequently parked up in the middle of all our town centres. It is calles the IVAN project and has been operating now for a few years. They often catch passers by with the offer to go inside and talk about cancer screening. I have never been caught and pass it as quickly as possible.

    I’ve sent a number of letters and emails out to different places over the past week. Anne Mackie, Sofminine, WHO and to my GP with the Opt out Form with a small note attached as well as St Helens and Knowsley Councils. I haven’t heard anything yet and to be honest I don’t expect to. I’m only just beginning to get an inking of what you have been up against for all these years Elizabeth. I’m amazed you didn’t give up somewhere along the way. We are like voices in the wilderness shouting out and hardly anyone listening. Its one thing to go on this site whinging about my experiences but is quite an undertaking to take on the powers that be.

    As for the add shown on TV I have only seen it once. I will watch out for it coming on again and try to record it. I have looked on YouTube for it but it doesn’t seem to be there. I don’t no where you are in England Kat, but if you watch TV you will come across it for yourself I’m sure.

    Alex – I thought your comment about ‘polishing thrones’ was quite funny. You have a very interesting way of expressing things. I don’t blame you for not wanting to read the download as It is quite upsetting in some places to read what is being done to women. When I asked John if he wanted to read any of it for himself, the colour drained out of his face immediately. Men like to think/look/touch/ that part of our anatomy but shudder in horror at the thought of sujects we discuss here.

  7. adawells says:


    This new brochure has just recently been published as part of the new PHE Screening website. It is worth a look. As we are already a year beyond these dates and the HPV vaccinated women have come into the programme since this was published I wonder if the overall attendees for cervical screening have now dropped below the 70% viability mark?

    “Our latest report ‘Cervical Screening Programme, England, Statistics for 2014-15’ highlights a fall in cervical screening coverage for both younger and older women.
    At 31 March 2015, the percentage of eligible women (aged 25 to 64) who were recorded as screened adequately within the specified period was 73.5%. This compares with 74.2% at 31 March 2014 and 75.7% at 31 March 2011.
    Coverage amongst women aged 25 to 49 years (measured at three and a half years) was 71.2 % at 31 March 2015. This compares to 71.8% as at 31 March 2014 and 73.7% as at 31 March 2011.
    For women aged 50 to 64 years, the coverage (measured at five and a half years) at 31 March 2015 was 78.4% which compares to 79.4% as at 31 March 2014 and 80.1% as at 31 March 2011.”

    • katrehman says:

      I’m in South east England Linda, Bedfordshire to be exact and I’ll keep a look out for the advert… X

    • ChasUK says:

      I noticed this Part:
      a total of 4.31 million women aged 25 to 64 were invited for screening in England in 2014-15 and 3.12 million women were tested, representing a fall of 3.3% from 2013-14
      And this Part:
      in 2014-15, a total of 198,216 referrals to colposcopy were reported in England – this represents a slight fall of 0.6% from 2013-14 (199,322 referrals)

      That is a lot of colposcopy referrals of which a very tiny few will go on to get CC….maybe? What a waste of money, time and resources – all for screening healthy people, not to mention the distress this cause women.

  8. linda says:

    Hi. I have left a comment on the stat site. I explain why I think their numbers are falling year on year. It isn’t a rant so I am sure it will pass their moderator. I will check it later. The only thing is writting on this pad is not easy and as usual in my scripts there are some spelling errors. It reads well apart from that.

  9. moo says:

    I have been recently watching a documentary series by Adam Curtis called “The Trap”. It explains that the political and economic theories were changed in the past decades to making health management (and other departments) about numbers. For the NHS the workers were given statistical goals to meet and the liberty to reach them anyway they could or lose their jobs. The theory was that people are driven only by self interest and nothing about the common good or compassion. This game theory was also used in many other countries. So if you have ever felt like you were just a number in certain situations, then that is just what you were.

    The series also made me question just how do people define freedom.

  10. Mint says:

    Some comments copied from a Practice Nurse blog. Informed consent anyone?

    “Posted: 14-Jan-2016 16:39
    Does anyone have any advice for chasing up overdue smears on Emis Web. so hard to do searches to find these women. ( and then they don;t come anyway!)How do you contact them or chase them up? Thanks for help.

    Posted: 18-Jan-2016 13:17
    The availability of smear testing has decreased in our area, sexual health clinics don’t offer and it is only available at GP practices and only with Practice Nurses. Less and less Gp’s do them. Could this be why drop I uptake? Some women like to have a smear done by someone unknown to them and not in their GP practice or they like a GP to do?
    Sorry, I’m not answering your query. Our PM searches and gives me a list. I may personal contact with pt’s, letter/phone call..works some of the time

    Posted: 19-Jan-2016 21:47
    I usually go onto QOF on Emis Web and look under public health [?]and it should bring up cytology. From this it will give you a list of all the women who had a smear in the last 5 years and those that have not [excluded].You can then use this list to contact patients……by letter or phone. Who does the cytology prior notification lists/non-responders on Open Exeter at your surgery?? A member of the admin staff does this at my surgery and when patients have received x2 routine smear invites but not responded we then generate a third smear invite. We also put on major alerts to try and catch them opportunistically but it can be very difficult to get the women to come in. If we get returned mail/have moved we remove them from our list.”

    • adawells says:

      Thank you very much for these comments, Mint. Very interesting to hear that some GPs are not doing smears at their surgeries anymore. From what I have read, the QOF targets give GPs 11 points if they achieve the 80% screening target, but I think they used to get more points than this before. QOF points have been much reduced feom what they used yo be. Many GPs hate the QOF targets, and because it is a voluntary scheme, some have opted not to do them at all. I have read that the entire county of Somerset has opted out of QOF targets, and others are looking into this. I think little by little, and very quietly, so the press doesn’t get hold of the story, this screening programme is being dismantled.
      Do post some more of these nurses blogs if you can. As we’ve long suspected, it is ignorance among nursing and reception staff that is keeping the hassling going.

    • Hexanchus says:

      My devious mind noticed an interesting bit of info in the last sentence……what if you cross out your address on the envelope, write “not at this address” on it, then toss it in a mail box to be returned. It might get you taken off their list…


      • Alex says:

        Good idea! Kind of like when you write the address you want it to go to as the return address & then mail it without a stamp.

  11. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    I’ve read this sort of thing before and even worse, the attitude is shocking, but it must come partly from the surgery. Pap testing is not treated like elective screening, it’s more something everyone has to do, so it’s a question of rounding up the stray women. You don’t see the same approach and attitudes with something like bowel screening. I know the Govt sends out the self-test kits, the GP does the pap testing (and gets a target payment) but there seems to be little concern or interest in bowel screening.
    There are problems with both tests, that’s why informed consent matters, but when they’re banging on about saving lives, bowel cancer takes far more lives than cc. No wonder some women assume cervical cancer would be rampant without screening and bowel cancer is not such a big problem.
    It’s dangerous stuff, deceiving us into viewing tiny risk as high risk and higher risk as not much risk.
    I think many of these nurses would be shocked to hear that women can reasonably refuse pap testing.
    The waste of resources should be a scandal, so much time and money for phone calls, letters, visits etc. Some women stay away because of the pressure to screen as soon as they walk into the surgery or consult room, this approach means some women can’t access healthcare.
    That’s plain wrong…
    I thought they’d changed the target payment system in the UK, I know the high targets resulted in shocking abuse – women routinely embarrassed, bullied and ridiculed into testing.

  12. Elizabeth (Aust) says:


    We have a new research officer in the office, she’s 21…she wonders: why is it when some women want to make a point they feel they have to take off their clothing?
    If it’s to attract more attention to the cause, aren’t they doing what we complain about, using the female body to sell a product or message? Men don’t see a need to stand naked to make a point etc.
    She thinks the men would have been delighted with this protest, great opportunity for a perv.
    It naturally received a lot of media interest as well.
    She also felt it was inappropriate/irresponsible given the recent surge in the number of sexual assaults on German and other European women.

    I know it’s her choice to protest in this way (in Germany, she’d be arrested here for indecent exposure)
    Some of the women in the office were also outraged by all the gratuitous full-frontal female nudity in “The Game of Thrones” (great care was taken to protect the privacy of the men)
    Some also objected to the Robert Thicke video, “Blurred Lines” – he’s in a suit, the women strutting/dancing in tiny g-strings.

    I was curious: how would you answer her Q?

  13. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Wow, words fail me, the nude Swiss protester also, “performed” outside an art gallery, eggs full of paint falling from her vagina onto a canvas.

    • adawells says:

      I noticed that this took place in Cologne, where many German women were assaulted in the New Year celebrations. Could there be a connection between women behaving like this in public, and the assaults from an influx of large, single men into the country from another culture, by any chance?
      These women make me very angry. They claim it is liberating women, yet we all know it does exactly the opposite. It ridicules us, makes us sex spectacles, and porn like this increases sexual attacks on innocent women. Agree with the art critic that it is vacuous and desperate. She needs help.

      • adawells says:

        Sorry the last sentence needs to be deleted as I definitely don’t agree with this kind of art!

      • Done, I’ve deleted the sentence Ada.

      • linda says:

        I agree Ada. Perhaps she has mental health issues. Its deff the product of a warped mind. I like art but i dont think if this as art at all and neither does anyone else. X

      • adawells says:

        I can’t understand why this was allowed to go ahead in a public place. Would they have allowed a male artist to paint a picture by peeing naked over a public square. Surely any man going around naked like that would be arrested in no time. Why is female nakedness all over the place, but not for men? I am sure it is all part of the culture that our bodies are expected to be available for all, and men’s are not.
        I was so sorry to read about your elderly friend, Linda. It is simply appalling that she was opened up like that, just for these nurses to practise on, and have a gawp. A smear would never have been accepted at that age as she would not have been part of the programme. It was mischievously exploiting an elderly woman.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        IMO, If you can call something “art” you can get away with a fair bit, some “art” makes me very uncomfortable, some of it makes me feel ill.
        I took my mother to a well known modern art gallery in Hobart a couple of years ago, the building is astonishing, that was definitely worth seeing, but a lot of the “art” left me scratching my head. There was a room housing a defecation machine, the smell was appalling…”anal kisses” was another series, an “artist” had put lipstick on his anus and then sat on beautiful stationary from the great hotels of the world. A video showing close up images of pimples being popped etc.
        I didn’t see much artistic merit in a lot of the exhibits/paintings, but I suppose some of it was designed to shock and generate discussion, it certainly did that…
        Mum was about 80 at the time, she was admiring a “painting of the outback”…she didn’t see the character was performing fellatio on the kangaroo…and she almost sat on a piece of art, a sofa painted white!
        We agreed after a couple of hours that wine and cheese and enjoying the sunshine and view was a better way to spend our afternoon.

        German women, as far as I’m aware, are still taken off to the gynaecologist when they start menstruating and I think annual pap tests, pelvic and breast exams are still in place. I’ve read these exams often also include a rectal exam and internal ultrasound.
        There’s also no privacy to undress, no sheet or gown provided, just strip off…(forget modesty, bodily privacy etc.)

        “I would like to check that this is normal however – Aside from the shock of not having any privacy and sitting up for the exam vs laying down (in the US) there were a few things that I’ve never had done before. I had the normal exam and then the Dr did an internal ultrasound to look at everything. I can only assume he wanted to get a better look at my insides but I’ve never had that before. I thought that was only for pregos. After that he did a rectal exam to see how much distance there was between my uterus and bum (if I understood that correctly). I was taken by surprise with that one! Then for the breast exam I really felt violated. Palpitating the breasts? What? On one hand it makes me question how effective my previous breast exams were but on the other hand I felt like I was getting beat up, lol. Is this normal? http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/102237-what-to-expect-of-an-obgyn-doctors-appointment/
        They also talk about the exam taking place in a “german gyn chair”…http://www.thelocal.de/20100602/27603
        http://www.medifa.com/en/produkte/untersuchungsstuehle/mus4000-5-gyn.html (I think this is the chair they’re talking about…)
        I’ve heard the same practice applies in France clinics too, you undress in front of the doctor, no curtains, sheets etc. http://parisblagueur.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/knowing-when-to-take-your-clothes-off.html

        I’ve mentioned before that my GP often had young German backpackers coming into her surgery in the CBD asking to have their ovaries and uterus checked, she’d explain it was unnecessary, they’d leave worried/unconvinced. Apparently, some doctors sent them off for an ultrasound, others may have obliged and given them a pelvic exam. I think it’s plain weird for young women (or older women) to be worried about their uterus and ovaries, so fearful it all needs checking every year. I suppose though if these exams start early, these women IMO, have effectively been groomed to worry about this area, to fear their own body, they need the annual reassurance, without an annual check, rogue cells might start multiplying…

        Does anyone know whether there is any push-back in Germany? Any changes being considered? Clearly the evidence does not support these examinations…and hasn’t for many years.

      • adawells says:


        Hi Elizabeth, I uncovered this 46 page handbook, which you can download, and which compares cervical screening programmes throughout the world, but I already think its a bit out of date. It praises the over 80% screening figure achieved in the UK, no mention of the illegal and unethical measures employed to achieve this, but this has already slumped to 73% nationally now. Our figures have always been higher than everyone elses because of the GPs incentives to pester and bully. The other Euro countries have screening rates much lower of about 60-70% screening rates.

        In the articles you posted, it looks like they are Americans expecting to continue these yearly exams whilst living in Germany. The German gynes have probably seen them coming, and thought they could claim the full whack from getting an American in the chair. I can’t answer for German and French women as I don’t know any well enough to ask them, but it seems that screening is more voluntary, and only about 60% go. Those who do go get the full works, but there seem an awful lot who don’t bother at all, and these seem to be those well-informed or of the working class. The well-woman business has always been taken up by the well-heeled middle class, and I think this is the case in France and Germany. I have read that one third of French women have NEVER had a smear test, so although I’ve seen reports of French women getting the full works too, I wonder just how many of the population turn up to put themselves through this. I think it is more voluntary in these countries – some women go, and a lot don’t bother. It is different to our UK system, where the incentive payments have robbed UK women of any choice in the matter, and robbed us of our human rights.

        Reading about the woman who had the breast check and the rectal exam as well, I think the gyne thought he’d do everything and earn himself a whopping reimbursement for doing that woman. What on earth did she go for if she didn’t know what was going on. Seems to be the average American who sleep walks into yearly exams, without knowing why she’s doing it. I think she was had.

        With both my pregnancies, my creepy exGP gave me the 2 fingers job at 8 weeks, when I first reported the pregnancy. Thereafter, I had no other invasive exams. One abdominal ultrasound was done at 18 weeks, with knickers firmly in place. Every 4 weeks midwife checked the size of the baby by pressing on my stomach, and listening to the foetal heartbeat, with a smalll device, which played it loud. There was no getting my knickers off for anything else medical until the baby came out, and absolutely no way was I ever asked to get my bra off for any kind of breast exam, visual or otherwise. No request was ever made to examine my breasts.

        I also don’t get this getting naked from the waist down. It is widely suggested in the UK that women wear a loose dress or skirt to these “occasions”. It means that you are covered up at all times in the room, and only need to lift up the skirt at the last minute. I’ve never had a breast exam, and never removed my bra for anything medical except for my hysterectomy operation.

        These women are putting themselves through this because they are ignorant. I liked the British woman who posted that we don’t have any of these pointless exams in the UK. I don’t doubt for a minute that there are women in the UK who pay for this kind of perversity from private medical sharks, but am glad that it’s their own stupid fault, and the UK tax payer doesn’t have to foot the bill for them.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Ada, Immediately after the attacks in Cologne this woman decided to stand in a public square, completely naked, with a sign saying something like, “respect us even when we’re naked”…
        You can see men in the background staring and taking photos…does she really think this “demonstration” will help women? What message is she sending to the attackers?

      • Alex says:

        Wait, what happened? A bunch of “refugees” went after a bunch of German women & then a woman panted pictures this way in public? I think they just figure doing something “up-river” that involves anywhere on their bodies that’s female-specific is somehow being liberated.

        Yeah, and I’m a “free & independent man” by waving my dick at traffic! [sorry if that offends, but I must have said worse at some point]

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Hi Ada, it would be interesting to hear from some German women. I’ve read you need to see a gynaecologist to get a script for the Pill, I doubt these women simply get a blood pressure check. I’ve read that annual pap testing, pelvic and breast checks are recommended every year as well and that girls usually have their first visit with the gynaecologist when they start to menstruate, but I can’t find any numbers. Hopefully, most just ignore these recommendations, I certainly hope so. I’m also not sure whether it’s self-promotion by gynaecologists or coming from the Health Dpt.
        I’ll see if I can get some more information.

      • adawells says:

        Hi Elizabeth, I hope I’ll be able to find out more about this in my new job, but I agree it would be good to get some other views from Europe about this issue. The Handbook in the link describes the process in all the European countries. Only UK, Netherlands and Finland? (can’t remember), have smears carried out at their local GP surgeries, so it would seem that the rest have to find a gyne to do it, which probably accounts for the lower screening rates among the less well off in these countries, (the very women most at risk of this disease). Whilst I applaud the ethos of the NHS to make healthcare equally accessible to all, including the poorest, I strongly object to the way it has set up and run our cervical screening programme, which has been an illegal assault on our human rights over the decades. I did read somewhere, that France and Germany in the 1980’s, refused to set up organised screening programmes, because feelings were still very raw from the “round-ups” and organised hunts for certain groups in society during the Nazi and Vichy times in the 1930’s and 40’s. Even today, these countries know only too well, where that led to. No such experience of this in the UK, so they just went ahead and rounded up every woman known to the NHS in the 1980’s. UK has the highest screening rates of any country in Europe, because of the incentive system given to GPs, and because women can be cornered at every consult to a doctor, whilst in continental Europe they’d have to visit a gyne. Whilst the NHS congratulates itself on this, they make no mention of the illegal threats and bullying which take place in GP surgeries to achieve this.

        It is difficult to work out who gets screened the most – is it the 60% of Germans who attend every 2 years, or is it the 73% of Brits who attend every 3 years? Whilst those Europeans who do go to a gyne for a smear will get the “full works” there are clearly a lot of never, or very low attenders, who choose not to.
        I know that in Germany, healthcare is not completely free, and a small amount has to be paid for each visit. They are trying to bring this in here in the UK, as a lot of people abuse the NHS and book doctors appointments to get free packets of paracetamol, they are too lazy to buy from the chemist quite cheaply. Every year, German women are sent a voucher to pay for a pap test at a gyne of their choosing. It is up to them, whether they take it up or not. I don’t think they get the 2nd and 3rd demands that UK women have to put up with, and I don’t think there is any obligation to go. I think, when they get to the gyne, he will do everything and put in for the reimbursements as much as possible.
        In the UK, gynaecology, and all other specialisms are only carried out at hospitals and in order to see one you have to be referred by your GP, who acts as a gatekeeper to you accessing higher services. It’s supposed to keep the timewasters away from wasting specialists’ time, but in Europe, if the patient has vouchers, I suppose the specialists are happy to see anyone, with money in their hands.

    • adawells says:

      This is child abuse and too perverse for words. Why aren’t we seeing Aladdin getting his genitals poked? I find this whole idea very sinister – these Disney characters appeal to the under 10s and these medical perverts are trying to groom these children into thinking it’s normal for them to sexually exploit their bodies. I could hardly read it.

  14. katrehman says:

    Well put Ada! Why don’t we see Aladdin having a swab for std? Elizabeth I see your comments about the TV ad Linda mentioned appeared on the how do we help people decide blog but as yet no reply..
    Linda u gone quiet lately hope all well With you x

  15. linda says:

    Hi Kat. I’ve not felt well for the past few days, tho’ I checked comments everyday. I’ve been going for long walks everyday to this cafe in the next village for a cappo then watched the margaret rutherford films on tcm of an afternoon. I’m pretty annoyed at the disney princess scam we will just have to find ways to combat it. Thanks for thinking about me.

    I remembered something today i am going to put in my new book. A friend from a club I belong to was having heart problems so she went to have a heart monitor put on for a day or two. While she was there the practice nurse asked her if she had ever had a smear done. She said no. She was 78 at the time. The nurse said wouldn’t it be good to just check the health of your cervix while you are here. Now she was a fiesty cow and wouldn’t have listened to cr@p easily. But she admitted to me she didn’t know how the conversation went exactly but she ended up having one. During the exam the practice nurse asked permission to allow another nurse to have look as she has never seen such a beautiful cervix in all her career.
    She always wondered how it happened that she was sprawled there while these women cooed lovingly at this part of her body.
    We often talked about it and she was always saddened by this event. It haunted her really until she died of heart failure last year. She was 81. Now why the hell did these women do this to her? She was on her way out anyway but they subjected her to that. It was criminal. We often bang on about the injustice of smear test on us but i wonder how many older women those vile creatures have ‘attacked.’ This problem is probably hidden due to older people’s reluctance to make a scene or talk about such intimate goings on. After that she always took one of her sons with her for any check ups as she didn’t feel safe going there anymore on her own.

    I think practice nurses are worse than doctors.

    At the moment i’ve got my feet up watching a film with a glass of wine. Hope whatever you’re up to its good. X

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      It’s a shame she didn’t make a formal complaint. I wonder if there is some crazy footnote to this program, if you find an elderly woman in your consult room and she’s never screened, it’s a good idea to talk her into a test.
      Certainly here it might have triggered a second payment too, as a proudly unscreened woman there is a higher price on my cervix too. (although I hope that doesn’t extend to opportunistically screening elderly women)
      There IS perverse and irrational interest in the cervix.
      Her cervix probably looked in good condition “because” she was unscreened, she didn’t have a damaging “treatment” like so many screened women.

      I corresponded online with an American woman a few years ago, her elderly mother was in a home and was pestered to submit to a well woman exam every year, that left her bleeding and distressed. Her daughter consulted a lawyer to put an end to the abuse.
      The home argued if they didn’t arrange the test/exam and someone was diagnosed with cervical, breast or ovarian cancer, they might be sued. If I recall correctly, the elderly woman was required to sign a disclaimer.
      Another account that’s stayed with me…a nurse finds a drop of blood on an elderly woman’s pants and does a pap test to check she doesn’t have cc. The woman’s family found her in a distressed state, now bleeding quite heavily. (I think it turned out to be a urinary tract infection)

      The cervix has become the focus in women’s healthcare, it makes no sense, it’s irrational, but it’s this focus that fuels this abuse. Women of all ages are at risk…it’s not cc I’m worried about, it’s fairly rare, it’s medical abuse, that occurs FAR more frequently.
      Do I fear cc? I don’t really think about rare cancers, if I’m going to focus on disease and death, it makes far more sense to worry about heart disease, but I prefer to focus on wellness and good living. As far as mammograms and well woman exams are concerned, it’s stay away from my precious asymptomatic body!

      • linda says:

        Hi Eliz. That’s terrible. Its pensioner rape! How do these people sleep at night? I would never sleep again if i did that to an older person. I always thought it would be great to live in America but when you hear about all tne gyno exams they have i shudder in horror. I bet that practice goes on in all the care homes.

        She probably didn’t complain. She will have put it down to her own stupidity for allowing herself to get in that situation. She was a dignified lady, one of the last of a certain breed.

        Its looking like chastity belts for women were a good idea after all.

  16. katrehman says:

    Linda that’s horrific. Isn’t the term elder abuse? Truly no ones safe. Hang in there.thinking of u all! I’ve starting taking b vitamins as well as iron for the anaemia and its helping. These I’m buying over the counter as I know my beloved gp will just bang on about my anaemic cervix!!

    • katrehman says:

      Linda new book gissa clue? And whatever is wrong.. Get well soon!!

    • linda says:

      Hi Kat. Yes he’ll probably want to check your cervix for anaemia. Any excuse to check there.

      Nurse Grimey (you have no clue how close that is to her real name but i think its funny) attacks women it doesn’t matter how old they are. She is a very dangerous woman. Or was – as she retired to look after her hubby. I used to see her in my local garden centre but i’ve not seen her since joining this site. I am going to name and shame her in my book to deliberately spoil her retirement and her peace of mind. She had no right calling herself a ‘nurse’ it is a total insult to the profession. My grandmother was a nurse during the war nursing injured men back to health at Haydock Cottage Hospital which specialised in war injuries – now she was a nurse.

      Eliz is right, the cervix is the only thing docs are concerned about. Its like there’s no other bits to us only that. Its terrible that these nurses go into nursing homes to attack women so near to the end of their lives just because they fear litigation.

      • katrehman says:

        Found this on itv news website, in parts of south west UK less than 70% of women have smear testing and they reckon cc is on the up. It’s mainly young women who don’t attend and wait for it, they don’t go coz they’re embarrassed and don’t understand enough about screening

      • adawells says:

        Oh, it’s on the up is it? Well that must prove that the wonderful HPV vaccine can’t be working! Perhaps we could be shown evidence. Perhaps there was 1 lady in Cornwall got cervical cancer in 2014 and in 2015 there were 2! OMG, a shocking, staggering epidemic of 100% increase due to ignorant silly women! As it is once again cc prevention week, be prepared for a week of this nonsense, and Mr Music popping up everywhere chastising womankind.

  17. linda says:

    Hi all. I’ve known about your old site blogcritics for a while but only thought of reading some of the comments posted today. I came across an account written by Dan about his wife’s terrible experience. I was just devestated to read it. I hope to God wherever they are right now and whatever they are doing they are happy and healthy. Truly shocking.

  18. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Ada, I’ll go through that link later today, thanks for the information.

    Linda, I’m still haunted by a few of the posts on that site.
    a) The older lady who finally worked out what had happened to her all those years ago: forced and early pap test when she was a virgin, false positive that resulted in a hysterectomy (yes, that happened to some women in the early days of this testing and I suspect it’s still something women opt for after decades of “abnormal” results and “treatments”)
    It finally made sense, she had never married and had lived with the trauma caused by that “simple, life-saving test” for decades, a test she did not consent to have, she was forced to test to get medical care.
    b) Does anyone remember Amanda? The young woman (20-something) devastated by an early (normal) cone biopsy, her life and health had been destroyed, her cervix so damaged her menstrual flow was affected, (cervical stenosis) she had a procedure to open the cervix, the problem occurred again, her relationship ended (sex was out of the Q) – she had odour, spotting, bleeding, pain, discomfort etc.
    She was looking at yet another procedure to open her badly damaged cervix…

    I actually ran into her on another site, a doctor had flippantly advised her to stay on the Pill to prevent menstruation, but the Pill had always made her feel unwell (headaches, weight gain, bloating etc.) and she was told she might need fertility treatment and a c-section if she wanted to have a child.
    Of course, she felt her sex life was over…and that meant no relationship or children, those choices had been taken from her.
    c) The woman who lost her baby after her “treated” cervix failed, born premature, he passed away a few days later.
    d) The woman (30s) who almost died after a cone biopsy, (massive bleeding) she ended having an emergency hysterectomy and in the ICU for several days, her gyn told her she was “lucky”, her cone biopsy was fine.

    I’ll never forget these women, never stop grieving with them for all they lost, thanks to this “life-saving” test. These are the woman no one wants to know about…and I can tell you, their numbers greatly exceed the number of women actually helped by this testing.

    • adawells says:

      Well said Elizabeth. All those poor women swept under the carpet and trampled on by the pink propaganda juggernaut. No-one spared the mutilations as they go about “rescuing” us from this rare disease. The pink charities never reveal the harm they have done. I’ve never contacted any of them for help, and as an ex-cancer patient, they should be there for people like me, but I wouldn’t give them a penny because they’re only in it for themselves. It’s a never-ending round of lavish dinners, award ceremonies, and self-congratulatory publicity on the backs of people’s illness. If they came near me I’d tell them to pi$$ off!

      • linda says:

        You would think someone in authority somewhere would call time on this programme but I know that will never happen. It will literally be up to us. So many women have been harmed you would think that everyone would know about it all by now. It seems more are speaking out about the breast crushing programme. So perhaps its just a matter of time.

        I am putting together a new book as this is the only way I know to get the message to women. One of the chapts will look at ‘medical mens’ millenia long interest in women’s repro’s and some of the things docs did to women during the holocaust. Their desperation to examine all women’ parts never goes away and haunts us down the ages. If either of you two want to get involved i am more than happy to work with you both again.

        A curious thing happened to the first book on monday. It was downloaded on ibooks 24 times in about 6 hours. While its doing great (100’s now) i thought this sudden flurry on that site looked strange as most of the dowloads are from smashwords or nook and kindle (during the ‘free’ days.) I am hoping ‘someone’ has stumbled across it.

        Ada, do you know if ibooks is the preffered device of people in the medical community? Most people i know have kindles.

  19. katrehman says:

    Linda would you consider working with me over the Holocaust angle? I married a Pakistani Muslim hence my name, but under Jewish law I’m Jewish as was my mother ( it passes through the mother). I feel it’s my duty to speak out about the Holocaust and learn as much as I can about it! I never reverted to Islam , I’m still me!
    That’s not the reason I don’t screen, for religious issues, I just felt violated and outraged by the test. Just! Anyway…

    • linda says:

      Hi Kat. It’d be great to work on another book together. I would like a chapt on the history of womens exper’s. Right from the beginning ‘medical men’ have had a fascination with our repro’s. From the causes of hysteria, to the reason we’re unformed men, the circumcics in the C19th to the forced internal exams of Jewish women in the camps to the rolling out of mass smear testing. Its all relevent.
      I don’t know about contents of other chapts yet only tinkering at the mo. X

      • katrehman says:

        Just let me know! They certainly did plenty, from experimental sterilisation using poisoning and massive doses of radiation so the victims burned, they also tried insemination using animal sperm at one time (unbelievable but true)!
        And doesn’t seem to of progressed much since! Now we have the cervical screening programme!

  20. Si says:

    So now some obscure research has made it into the Guardian suggesting a link between HPV and breast cancer. But wait – the Gardasil vaccine can prevent this happening! It sounds like Big Pharma propaganda to me.
    “The researchers identified 30 low-risk and 20 high-risk HPV types in 855 of the breast cancer cases. While not conclusive, the finding strongly supports a growing body of evidence linking HPV to a small subset of breast cancers.”

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Hi Si
      I smell a big self-interested rat…very convenient “research”…wonder who funded it?
      A bit like the research going on frantically trying to find a continuing reason to keep women having regular pap tests for most of their lives, “it might pick up uterine and ovarian cancer”…
      It “might” do a lot of things including leading to a lot of grief…and the chance of the latter is bound to be high, certainly a lot higher than the chance of benefit.
      Incredible they have so much money to spend on this sort of research but then a fortune is made from this testing (and aftermath) so vested interests must be frantic about the cash cow running off the rails. It makes good business sense to find another compelling reason to keep women on exam beds having pap tests every year or so.

  21. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    “I too have very valid reasons for not wanting the test – I was sexually abused – added onto that I had extreme heavy bleeding which resulted in many intimate examinations and hospitalisation for a full emergency blood transfusion with some very harsh and uncaring medical staff who seemed to view me as a slab of meat with no compassion at all (one nurse even shouted at me and told me I was stupid because I began shaking and said I was scared).
    I’ve now had a reminder today and feel sick with fear ”

    Hi Ada, I’ve sent a private message to Cammie inviting her to join us and to speak to you about opting out of the UK program (if that’s what she chooses to do)
    Feeling sick with fear…it’s so unfair what this program and it’s supporters do to women, life is far too short.

  22. Diane Spero says:

    i got a letter from my ( ex) health insurance company. it said i haven’t had a mammogram in 2 yrs and i should have one. they say that these test i may benefit from. i don’t have that insurance anymore! who are they to say what test would benefit me,
    i don’t have mammogram because i feel they are a violation and have many false ositives that lead to other tests,
    The us health system is about $$$ nothing else

    • kleigh us says:

      If I were you I’d rip up that letter they have no bussnes sending that to you. I’m tired of people and organization s TELling woman what they should have done to there body’s.

  23. Si says:


    Paternalism is alive and kicking with these preventative recommendations from the CDC in the US, to pressure women of child bearing age not to drink alcohol unless they’re on birth control. Just in case they become pregnant and subject the potential human to FASDs.

    It’s alarming that women might forget their ability incubate other humans is far more important than, well, being a person – with the ability to make decisions about their own bodies without interference from the government, and the medical fraternity!

    • kleigh us says:

      I’m not against woman who. Choice hormonal birth control, but some woman use other kids of protection and also all woman are not asexually active. It seems like there hear in the states really push the pill as the only way to prevent pregnancy. Thin to tack it onto well woman exams. It all seems like a marketing scam and yes it implys woman don’t know there body’s . we ” need special care remember”. Lol

  24. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    “The age for screening via the NHS commences at 25 by invitation. Thereafter between the years of 25 to 49, it is every three years and from 50 to 64, it is every five years.
    Younger women who are sexually active from a much earlier age ie during teenage years, could still have cervical abnormalities and an earlier smear/screening test would be advisable. Currently, a screening test is not available before the age of 25 via the NHS, but it is available earlier in the private sector.

    Women who are not sexually or have never been sexually active have a much lower risk than women who are sexual active. For these women, it is not compulsory and a woman may choose to decline. Accepting an invitation for cervical screening for women who are not sexually active is important, as cases have been reported in women who are not sexually active.”

    Interesting choice of words: “for these women it is not compulsory and a woman may choose to decline”…no wonder some women believe these tests are compulsory.

    I wonder how many young women (under 25) in the UK end up screened in the private sector, with some people/groups pushing to lower the screening age and the misinformation and scare-mongering that follows an early case of cc, I wonder…
    It doesn’t matter if you’re sexually active at 16 or 17, smear/pap tests are not recommended before age 25 or 30 for a reason, they don’t help, but carry the fairly high risk of false positives, excess biopsies etc.

    This UK gynaecologist also promotes well woman exams, these women probably think they’re looking after their health, when the reverse is the case. I imagine some US and other women go looking for these exams if they’re living or working in the UK.
    When the smear test is not recommended for young women and the well-woman exam has not been recommended for many years, it makes me wonder why more isn’t done to stop these private clinics promoting these services (no mention of risk v actual benefit) – it’s more than peddling your services, they’re misleading women and endangering their health.

    • adawells says:

      A lot of these private health care practices get people through the door by offering all sorts of tests and we’ll women exams, for about £150-200, which is well within most people’s budget. Trouble is, they nearly always find something that requires further (unnecessary) investigation, which they charge a lot more for. It is at this point people then switch to the NHS demanding free hospital appointments for MRI scans etc. An 18 year old getting a private smear test is bound to get an abnormal result, but doesn’t have the £1000’s to then pay for the further tests and scans, so they go to their NHS GP demanding to get a hospital gyne referral, but the GP can’t do this without there being any symptoms, and cannot do another smear test as it will be rejected by the cytology labs. It puts a lot of time wasters onto the NHS. There are often long queues for MRI scans because of this.

    • Chrissy (UK) says:

      So according to this female gyn, cervical screening is not ‘compulsory’ for virgins? This terminology has no place in any description of elective screening tests.
      Listen up world, cervical screening is not compulsory for ANY of us.

  25. hayley says:

    hi I found this site two years ago I’ve not had a smear test for over five years am 43. I live in the u.k so I have had reminder letter’s come though my door. they make me feel sick and angry then they go in the bin.The smear test programmes and the campaigns for this test makes me feel like I just don’t want to be a women. I have a ten year old daughter I worry so much about her future I just hope thing’s will change.

    • adawells says:

      “Deciding whether or not to have a screening test is your choice. To help you decide, you can also read the NHS Cervical Screening leaflet (PDF, 453kb).
      If you don’t want to be invited for screening in the future, contact your GP and ask to be removed from their list of women eligible for cervical screening. If you change your mind at a later date, you can simply ask your GP to put you back on the list.”

      Hayley, thank you for contributing. The above statement has been copied from the NHS website on cervical screening so it is official that you can opt out. I would print this out and take it should you need to visit your GP and think that they might pressure you into having a smear. Like some other ladies on this site, I have a teenage daughter and am very worried about what awaits her when she turns 25. I want to do all I can to spare her the treatment that was metered out to me in the 1990’s. That’s what spurs me on.

      • katrehman says:

        Hayley welcome back! And I second Ada. My daughter is. 19 and I didn’t have her vaccinated..
        I don’t think she’ll screen when she’s “invited” but it’s her choice. She knows about this site and my. Contribution to the book..
        Please don’t let your doctor railroad you into testing if you don’t want to! And make sure your daughter has all the facts so she can decide for herself. She’s lucky to have a mum like you! X

  26. hayley may says:

    hi katrehman yesterday was the frist time I left a comment on this site. I’ve changed my name to Hayley may. I try my best to avid going to my docters the last time I went was because I had premenopausl symptoms, All she wanted to do is send me to a gynaecologist for test I’ve not seen my g.p since. and I will not be going to any gynaecologist. All I wanted was a blood test.

    • linda says:

      Hi Hayley May. I hope you are ok. Welcome to the forum. I’m so glad so many women are coming here in search of answers their own doctors can not be bothered to provide.

      Menopause is an entirely natural phenomenon. Its part of being a woman. Its wonderful and liberating and not in any way an illness or disease for a doctor to investigate. Just go with it and if you have any problems you don’t like or are not sure about just look on the internet and buy the appropriate herbs you want. This next chapter of your life – in pre history before men got hold of religion – simply means you are maturing into a knowledgable and wise woman worthy of society’s respect.

      Hi All. Ada put a reference on the site earlier and I have spent the afternoon reading it.
      If you type in – cervicalscreening.legacy you will find a wealth of info on the incredible changes to the programme in the UK. They are moving away from smear tests to self testing for HPV. Also a lot on how best to deconstruct the huge workforce surrounding the screening programme. There are several docs to download and they take a lot of reading. Jo’s Trust is bleating on about falling numbers but other than that there feels like change is coming.

      The programme of forced mass rape could be over.

      • adawells says:

        So glad you were able to access the document, Linda. I only have my phone at the moment and am finding it really difficult to post links. I hope the document has cheered you up. There’s a lot to read, but it’s the latest news I can find.

  27. linda says:

    Thanks Ada. I’ve done a great deal of reading today as one document leads to another as you well know. I read one which suggests as far back as 2010 they were wondering about ceasing women at 50 if they had previous neg tests due to the fact its diff to get good samples.

    I’ve been quite excited this week because of new friends posting on the forum. Penelope, Haley, Shana and the others including the brilliantly named – cat & mouse who’s come back home! I hope we haven’t lost Samantha – she is so young I hope she will be ok.

    I hope the new job is still ok. Thanks for the links to screening.legacy its amazing.

    John is out with his mates so i’m sitting here having a nice few reds.x

    • adawells says:

      Linda, I’m always glad to be able to help with information, and I’m always on the look out for more recent news on the future of our terrible programme. Much as we’d love it to collapse like a house of cards, we clearly have a major face saving exercise going on here, and they seem keen to reduce the programme as much as possible, whilst still saying how wonderful and indispensable it has all been. I attended a local talk on bowel screening recently, and it was openly stated that future screening programmes are proceeding extremely carefully because of the blunders and mistakes made with the breast and cervical screening programmes. I think they are aware that with hindsight the programmes would not have been rolled out as they have been, but, as Eliz says, at the GP level, it is business as usual with many GPs still pushing the test like a double glazing sales pitch. I am sure there are many in the NHS who wish these wretched programmes had never been invented.
      I used to work part-time, but I’ve gone back to working full-time, and am enjoying my new job very much, but come home worn out. Not as young as I used to be! I don’t work in anything to do with screening, of course, (how could I?), but I’m now hoping to find out much more about what is going on.

  28. samantha says:

    Hi everyone. I’m still here I look in everyday to read your comments. Linda u mentioned the UK were changing screening to self hpv testing. Is that true? Do u know when that will happen? I still worry everyday about it all. I’ve got my first counselling session next Thursday and I just know they’re going to ask why don’t i like people down there and the thought of smear tests. I know I’ve got to go for other reasons as well,but the thought of them going on at me saying its not as bad as you think,makes me want to cancel all together. X

    • adawells says:

      Hi Samantha, we don’t know when they will bring in the new test, I think they are keeping this the big secret, because once women will know the date, they’ll hold off getting smear tests until then. This is what’s happening in Australia, as many are waiting for the new HPV test to come out in 2017.
      If your GP mentions smear tests, calmly point out that the RCGP (Royal College of General Practitioners) issued a statement last year to all GPs that no patient should feel pressured into having a test they didn’t want, and that GPs should not be pushing the tests on women at appointments. Ask for an opt out form if they keep on. It is your right to opt out of screening if you wish.

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