Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog. (click on title or graphic to go to comments)

About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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2,689 Responses to Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

  1. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Someone showed me something on Youtube today that was incredibly confronting, I’m not going to link it. It happened in Brazil, a young female policewoman is suspected of taking some money, her pants and underwear are forcibly removed by her male colleagues while other male policemen look on, she’s completely exposed. This happened in a police station so these men would have been her workmates. I think there might have been one female policeman involved as well.
    She did have money concealed in her underwear, but you have to wonder about a police force that thinks that’s an appropriate way to conduct a body search.

    I’ve heard some concerning things about Argentina and Brazil and they way they treat their women, for example:
    “Over the past few decades, most preventive campaigns for the early detection of cervical cancer in Argentina and Brazil have relied on the use of colposcopies and Pap tests as ‘routine procedures,’
    and this
    “The education department of Sao Paulo state requires female prospective teachers to undergo a pap smear to prove they are free of a variety of cancers, or to present a doctor’s statement verifying they have not been sexually active.
    Until recently, it also required women to have a colposcopy, a type of visual examination used to detect disease.”
    “The public management department for Sao Paulo said all tests ordered follow the standards and recommendation of the country’s health ministry for public servants as well as state law.
    In a statement, it also said other states and federal agencies had similar requirements.”
    – See more at: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/sthamerica/2014/08/09/women-rally-in-brazil-over-pap-smear-testing.html#sthash.qIKs7AgS.dpuf

    Just shocking…it must be a frightening place to be a woman.

    • Alex says:

      Brazil is like that with law enforcement. Actually, they have a situation called “revista vexatoria” where they do shit to both women & kids. There’s lots of variations, but imposed nudity is included & this is in front of the kids as well as directed AT the kids. If you look up “Brazil strip searches” you’ll hit what I was talking about. Apparently, torture is something that’s entrenched in law enforcement from olden times & this is just something they do when left to their own devices.

  2. Chaste4life says:

    I actually believe that, although we are coerced into exams for the men’s sake, it is also partly some women’s fault (as far as healthcare workers). I think that many of these female healthcare workers fell for the lines about going to a gyno at 14, the idea that all women have to lose their virginities at 18 or something is “wrong” with them, etc. Nevertheless, this overlooks the fact that women by nature are modest until they are abused or otherwise emotionally damaged. I think these women go on to finally get married (although they innately do not feel that it is special when everyone else has already seen ‘everything’ before the husband), have several children (while exposed more than necessary), have their vaginas ripped apart more with unnecessary post-birth exams that use a speculum three times as wide as their already sore female parts, and they endure all of this for years. When these female healthcare workers with their damaged vaginas meet young virginal women that are educated and refusing unnecessary female exams, I think they become jealous that they were not informed and that they are already “damaged” while these young women have a chance a normal relationships and normal s_x lives the way that it was meant to be before these silly exams were invented. Because of this, they yell, manipulate, tell us we’re being irresponsible, and lie all to get us naked and on that table being ripped apart when what they really need is psychological help for their issues of being violated in the past through the female healthcare system and societies expectations.

    • Emily says:

      I agree chaste…I remember when I was just shy of 18 and taking abx for strep I developed an infection and when I refused to let the dr (middle aged, male, too eager for comfort) take a look the younger female nurse tried to get me to do it by saying “this is something all women do. You’ll have to do it at some point” and “Don’t worry. we won’t tell your parents you’re not a virgin.” I WAS a virgin! and I didn’t want the first time anyone touched me there to be some creepy dr shoving his hands and tools inside. I wanted it to be someone who loved me and cared about me. 2 1/2 years later I met my beloved eric and I truly feel that if I had allowed that to happen it would have felt different. I don’t think it would’ve been as wonderful and special.

      Even now people still try to convince me that it’s “responsible” and “Something all women do.” well most women don’t have a monogamous relationship with another former virgin. after doing some basic research and finding out appr 95% of cc is from HPV I did some math and calculated my odds of getting cc. it was 1 in about half a million. turns out you and I have the same chances of getting cc (or any STDs for that matter) and people call us crazy, stupid and irresponsible for not running off to the gyno so they can damage our bodies and minds on some crazy witch hunt for things that aren’t there. I pity the women who know nothing more than the lies theyve been told. We know better, don’t we dear ;)

      • bethkz says:

        Good for you, Emily! I’m glad you stuck by your guns, and did not allow something contrary to your alignment occur.

        Yes, there is a TINY probability of getting CC without HPV or intercourse. What they don’t tell you is that those cancers are the ones that PAP just plain cannot pick up. It wouldn’t do you any good in even that very rare case of CC.

        Moreover, as unsterile and outright dirty as most medical equipment is, unsanitary conditions for washing and (not) sterilizing between patients, and risks from the glove box and the improper conditions that gloves are used, there was some probability of getting nearly any STD AT that appointment. The problem would be to prove that it happened *there* and that you had not had a sexual encounter of some type outside the office.

  3. kleigh us says:

    What about men they can get/ spread disease too. Why is it differen? I have two uncels that had prostate cancer and one uncle who had a infection in his testecols. Why is it defrent for men?

  4. Mary says:

    This is for Elizabeth. Hi Elizabeth.
    I read today that they are going to have a look at all the Medicare payments and want to stop paying for unnecessary tests and procedures. Of course the doctors are going to fight this tooth and nail. Sussan Ley said “She wants to hear from health professionals and patients about any services, tests or procedures they have come across in the Medicare system that are unnecessary or unsafe.”
    I intend to email her. If you can too, so I don’t sound like a lone nutter, that would be great.


    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Thanks, Mary, I’ve written to her before, but will do so again, so your letter will hopefully mean I’m not the lone nutter! I see “Four Corners” are looking at the billions wasted doing unnecessary tests and procedures too, it’s being aired tonight. They mention PSA testing but doubt they’ll have the guts to tackle pap testing/HPV testing or mammograms.
      Breast screening is highly controversial, we definitely should not be extending the program.
      Our new cervical screening program is excessive too, HPV testing at age 25 is a disaster and will catch a lot of young women, most likely sent for immediate colposcopy/biopsy and we’ll test far too often…AGAIN.
      It’s not rocket science, basic research confirms these points, there is no doubt in my mind the Govt has left these programs to vested interests. The many years of harmful excess with our cervical screening program and the long delay making any changes is mostly about vested interests jockeying for position, it has little to do with the evidence and what’s best for women.
      Hope all goes well with your studies too.

      • Alice (Australia) says:

        Elizabeth, you are so prompt and diligent! I was just about to post this link.
        “Many of us are receiving tests or treatments we don’t need, and some of these are harmful.”
        How long did it take them to figure it out?! People like you have been writing about it for years. Now it’s in the “news”.

      • Alice (Australia) says:

        That 4 Corners program discussed the research, which found that at least half of medical tests, procedures, prescribed medications and treatments are at least useless, and often harmful. They reiterated quite boldly that patients should always question every test or procedure their doctors recommends or sends them to. The 4 Corners’ advice was to always ask the doctors: what’s the evidence that this test/program/procedure/treatment/surgery is safe and beneficial?

        Now, what’s the evidence that pap tests and cervical screening program is safe and beneficial? None! There has never been a single controlled randomised trial that proved pap smears are safe, reliable and do more good than harm.

        Pap tests were invented nearly a century ago, because the science, technology and medicine didn’t know any better back then. Most tests and procedures of that age have been since retired or even banned. Yet pap smears survived, despite causing massive harm to women all over the world. Pap smears are cheap, easy for doctors to perform, they are a good excuse for the medical system to keep women under surveillance, and they lead to all sorts of money-making activities. A woman is trapped into a whirlpool of regular screening, colposcopies, treatments, follow ups, more screening, subsequent complications, surgeries, miscarriages, more treatments and more smears…

        4Corners didn’t dear to even mention the female screening. The same 4 Corners were brave enough to investigate massive police corruption back in 70s, and they made a huge difference for this country’s police accountability and trust. However, vested medical interests are too strong in Australia. Apparently, even stronger than criminal corruption and drug trafficking, because even 4 Corners were afraid to tackle it. Female health “care” is too political and too lucrative.

      • Teresa Lovejoy says:

        I too have written to Four Corners about how a group of rogue doctors deliberately fabricated I had cancer and forced me into a totally unnecessary radical hysterectomy at teaching hospital Monash Medical Centre. I did not learn until after I was butchered that this surgical racket has been rampant for well over a hundred years, but the whole corrupt system covers ups these insidious surgical mutilations against women here in Australia.. They are not interested in doing my story, or any stories told by patients who have been tricked or harmed following unnecessary surgeries they didn’t want or need in the first place…

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Did the Australians on this site watch ABCs “4 Corners” program on Monday night? Unnecessary tests and surgeries are costing us LOTS of money. You don’t say…
      There’s been a bit in the papers too, and as expected, the AMA have come out swinging, they refuse to work with anyone, we get outrage and obstruction, no co-operation at all, they refuse to work with midwives, pharmacists and anyone else they view as a threat to their market and profits. Whatever happened to proper care for patients? Ethical standards? First do no harm?

      I’ve sent something off to Sussan Ley, but the Review Panel doesn’t fill me with hope, some serious vested interests there. I’m sure they won’t touch women’s cancer screening, except perhaps, no cover for the routine CA125 blood test.

      If they want to save money, easy, take the Pill off script for a start, don’t extend the breast screening program, change the new cervical screening program to no HPV testing before 30 and then only 5 tests in total and offer HPV self-testing. I know they probably fear a real backlash if they exclude women under 30, some may ask why they’ve been having 2 yearly pap tests since they were 16 or so, good Q, and of course, all the young “survivors”. “I’d be dead if I didn’t have that pap test at 17!”…

      We kept testing (and over-screening) young women for a few reasons, one reason was to complete some research on Gardasil – they were comparing pap test records with vaccination records, of course, women did not consent to this research. So we carried on screening and over-screening knowing we’d harm a lot of young women, but the research came first and the great profits generated by all the false positive results. (that will continue with about 40% of those aged 25 to 29 testing HPV+)

      We also need to make sure women have access to balanced information on breast screening, then instead of focusing on the target, we could start winding it down, we know when women understand the risks and actual benefit, fewer want to screen.

      It still surprises me though the responses I get to my comments on many Australian sites, it says to me many women here have no idea there is a dark side to screening. UK & American women seem to have a better understanding, perhaps, that’s because our doctors and others have been silent for decades and this is the first time many of our women are hearing about over-screening, false positives and over-diagnosis/over-treatment.

      • adawells says:


        I think it’s one huge public relations exercise to prepare the public for the “shocking” news that screening tests aren’t all they are cracked up to be. They are preparing them for the terrible news that all these tests are rubbish. The brainwashed and duped need to be let down slowly, or they’ll be a revolt. They want the sheeple to think “Hmm, maybe if that test doesn’t work….what about the others?”. I think they are trying to get the penny to drop in their own minds.

        In the Michael Mosley BBC programme he made a passing mention of cervical screening, but other than that, this was one test he conspicuously didn’t cover. Thank goodness Iona Heath was there to rip the breast screening programme to pieces, which was the best demolition job of mammography that has ever been aired to date, and there was no way she was getting up on the couch for the obligatory on-screen pap test favoured by the young bimbo quacks who’ll do anything to boost their TV careers!

      • Alice (Australia) says:

        Elizabeth, it’s too true, and too sad. But for as long as we have a bunch of criminal bureaucrats and paternalistic dinosaurs under the name of Australian Medical Association (AMA) ruling healthcare in this country, there will never be any proper care for patients, ethical standards, or “first do no harm”.

        And I’m not afraid using the word criminal, because anyone who knowingly causes harm by their actions to another person would be trialled in a criminal court in Australia. Anyone, except medical bureaucrats.

  5. Si says:

    So not only are a lot of these procedures unnecessary, there’s also the risk of injury from medical mishaps. The dismissive attitude to her complaint is appalling and unfortunately consistent with how the medical profession treats women in general.

  6. kkk@yahoo.com says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11515870 “A young woman was badly burned and feared she may never have children after a horrifying medical blunder – and then offered a $50 fuel voucher by way of apology.

    The 21-year-old, whom the Herald on Sunday has agreed not to name, faced a costly and traumatic three-month recovery after the error during what was supposed to be a routine 15-minute procedure.”

    • Moo says:

      This is terrible. But remember that more than one woman was harmed.

      I used to work in a lab so I know that glacial acetic acid causes second degree burns when spilled on the skin. But any pharmacist in the world knows that glacial acetic acid when diluted to 5% is essentially normal distilled household vinegar. There is no reason to purchase reagent grade acetic acid and have it diluted by a pharmacist. It is only to add to costs. Some colpolscopy clinics just buy large jugs of food grade 5% distilled vinegar.

      This “accident” just shows how careless this clinic is. You have to wonder if they sanitize surfaces or even sterilize equipment when they get the vinegar wrong. I did hear of another case of a woman being damaged when a doctor mixed up cleaning solution from a spray bottle instead of vinegar in her vagina.

      • kat rehman says:

        The whole thing is bizarre. Who came up with the idea of painting solutions on cervixes anyway? It’s like a grotesque painting by numbers except this is women’s lives and dignity!

      • adawells says:

        Kat, thank you so much for adding your comments to the NHS site about helping patients decide whether screening is the right choice for them. Anne Mackie is director of screening services in the UK and it is remarkable that not only have our comments stayed up, but she has kindly replied to two of them. And on an NHS website too. Pete Taylor’s comments were excellent.

      • Alice (Australia) says:

        Elizabeth, I often wonder how many women you saved from psychological trauma, severe problems in sexual life, butchered reproductive organs, miscarriages, pain, humiliation and depression… Just by letting them know the truth about the “life-saving” (actually, life-wrecking) pap smears, hidden agenda and vested interests withing the medical system. I bet no doctor in the world saved so many women trough his/her whole career!

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I posted this on the NHS site:

        “I think informed consent is largely an academic exercise in women’s cancer screening and sometimes in practice, there is no consent at all. Coverage is the thing that matters and protecting the program. (not women) Take note of the language used in women’s cancer screening, “capturing” women, “non-compliant women” or “the unscreened” or “overdue” or “failed to attend” or “all women must” or “all women should”.
        I don’t see or hear anything that suggests we have a real choice about testing. Opportunistic screening is also openly encouraged with GPs rewarded for reaching screening targets. (but this potential conflict of interest is never mentioned to women)

        I don’t understand how the medical profession could possibly think this is an appropriate way to treat women, it says to me there are some serious issues and inappropriate attitudes within the profession. You don’t have the right to make screening decisions for us, to accept risk on our behalf and our bodies belong to us, not to the medical profession and these programs.

        Some women are ambushed in the consult room with a power dynamic that means some will unwillingly submit to the test, we might not care who looks at our sprained ankle, but a pap test is a very different matter. I also believe that predatory doctors have used this program to take advantage of women who enter their consult room for any reason, the lack of respect for consent and informed consent means these doctors can safely pressure or even coerce women into a pap test.
        I’m 57 and have never had a pap test. I did some early research and rejected them, but quickly found that, “no, thank you” was unacceptable, we were all just expected to screen and scolded and judged if we didn’t. There is an anger, an impatience with women who refuse to submit when directed to do so.
        I’ve listened to this program mislead women for decades, violate our legal rights and know many women who’ve been traumatized and harmed by this program. Some women now avoid all medical care because of past pap test/false positive/excess biopsy/over-treatment trauma or pap test pressure. Almost all of the damage was avoidable with an evidence-based program and informed consent.

        We see the same thing with breast screening, the same disrespectful and inappropriate attitudes and unethical practices. (I’ve declined to screen, an informed decision)

        When you have screening targets in place and when you reward GPs for reaching targets, when you dismiss informed consent (and even consent itself) this can’t be cancer screening, it’s medical abuse.
        I hope there is some justice one day for all the women abused by this program.
        Informed consent…it’s missing in women’s cancer screening programs. We might get lip service, but it’s business as usual at the surgery level. The language says it all, unscreened, non-compliant, overdue, should, must, necessary, failed to attend etc. etc.”

        Let’s see if it gets past the moderators.

    • Alice (Australia) says:

      The most terrifying thing is that the patient probably told the quacks that it hurts, but they dismissed her complains, told her that the procedure is “painless” and must be done to save her life. Butchers!

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Completely avoidable damage, you don’t perform pap testing on 21 year old women to start with, “abnormal” results (false positives) are more likely in those under 30 and even more likely in those under 25. The procedure itself is bad enough, and then this happens, serious burns. This “simple” test so often leads to ugly and harmful places.
      Leave young women alone and even better, leave all HPV- women alone and that’s almost all of us. So many women are healthy and happy until this testing starts…

  7. adawells says:


    Trial in UK finds that less than half of population took up offer of new bowel screening test offered at age 55. Plan is for UK national roll out to take place by 2018, and get 75% uptake by 2020.

    Seeing as this test is also for men, it would be interesting to see how the propaganda shapes up. I wonder what colour the ribbon will be? Brown?

    • kat rehman says:

      Elizabeth.. I love it!!

    • Mint says:

      The same old story – a screening test gets rolled out, it’s invasive and the powers that be can’t understand why more people didn’t jump at the chance! The new trial sent out invitations – no informed consent, then there are plans to raise the uptake – informed consent anyone?

      I do like the idea of a brown ribbon.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Yet they readily understood why so many men refused a digital rectal exam, I read so many times that a non-invasive test was required as soon as possible. Whenever pap testing was raised, “oh, well, women are used to these exams, they have them their entire lives and they go through pregnancy and childbirth”.
        Talk about a double standard, more to the point, men are viewed differently by the medical profession and they’d never dream of using coercion or other tactics to force men into screening. Our privacy, dignity, health and legal rights don’t matter, that was the take home message.
        Of course, PSA testing is highly controversial, there is no formal program and never will be and the DRE is not recommended either. Some doctors recommend these tests, others don’t, but at least men are aware it’s a controversial subject and that testing is entirely a matter for them…wouldn’t that be a nice change?

      • kat rehman says:

        So it’s a person’s right to decline or accept but they want to increase uptake and break down barriers (brainwash)! Cynical naughty kat

      • kat rehman says:

        Women probably have had more than enough invasive screening and are thinking oh god not again not up my backside this time! Hence more men this time?

      • adawells says:

        Yes, brown with red spots with a nice satiny sheen would be just the ticket.

    • kat rehman says:

      No worries adawells! I did leave another one but don’t think that got passed the moderator but 2 outta 3 ain’t bad!

      • linda says:

        Thanks kat. I had a fab opportunity yesterday. I went into a 6th form were they were discussing smear tests. In one blow i have saved about twenty girls directly if not the entire 6th form as you know how they talk. I also taught some sociology. Was able to incorporate smear tests as an example of how we all follow the current thinking without questioning. It was a great day for those girls!

      • kat rehman says:

        Let’s hope finally thanks to women like sue, Elizabeth adawells, Linda to name but a few that attitudes to screening are finally changing!

      • kat rehman says:

        Linda that’s amazing I only hope my girl (at uni now) has tutors like u)

  8. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    As usual we’re rewriting history, what about the Dutch? I understand HPV self-testing will be available there under their new program. (that starts early next year)
    It also irks me the attitude that now HPV self-testing is an option for the never-screened or those way “overdue”, that there is no “excuse” we must all screen now.
    These people just don’t get it, screening is an option, not a law, whether they like it or not. I will never take part in any Australian program, I know what’s been going on for decades. I don’t trust these people, and don’t want to be part of any central register or my results being used in research or anything else.
    I’ll continue to decline…and I hope women who want to screen and would prefer self-testing demand immediate access or know they can buy a self-test kit online.

    • Alice says:

      Same here Elizabeth. I am and will continue opting out, declining, deregistering and deleting my personal data from everything I possible can. Pap crap registers, any other screening and mass butchering “programs”, eHealth, PCEHR, MyHR, whatever else our “caring” govt invents.

      These registers and databases cannot be trusted with one bit of our personal information. It will be immediately misused to the profit of the system, not to the benefit of the patient.

  9. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    The noose tightens…you can opt out, but if you test then your details go onto the register.
    I heard that GPs will be able to search the register to check whether their patients have screened, not sure about that, I’m trying to get to the detail. It will be interesting to see whether women have to register with a medical practice, that would concern me because it suggests they might get print-outs of the “overdue” and “unscreened” and women may face even more pressure to screen.

    • linda says:

      Hi Eliz & Alice. I had no idea Aust is such a totalitarian state. Sounds like the gov is on the verge of making all these cancer tests compulsory. You have to do your part in making thus as hard for them as poss.

    • Alice says:

      I wish Australian government would stop wasting our tax money on there disgusting registers. Pressure, propaganda, invasion of privacy, surveillance and harm. Nothing else comes from there registers.

    • Alice (Australia) says:

      The register will provide an ongoing data feed to DoH’s enterprise data warehouse, which will be responsible for all strategic reporting to register stakeholders, except individuals. The PCEHR will be the mechanism that provides information to individuals.

      As usual: the whole enterprise gets all our personal data, except for us, the individuals. Instead, we will be forced to use the PCEHR privacy-invading behemoth.

  10. Ozphoenix says:

    Hi guys!

    I haven’t posted for while but I still get comments sent to my email, which is a great way to keep up.

    I had to get some pathology tests done recently, and I noted on the pathology form (it’s Australian, NSW) that the cervical screening register is now ‘opt-out’!! What the?!?! Also very disappointing and disgusting to see that the pap test is highlighted right up the top of the form in big letters. Because as we all know, nothing about womens health is more important than the pap test (we’re all just walking cervixes, right?? Heart health, other organs, anything else – nah! Just the vajay-jay). Pretty disgusting.

    I tried calling the phone number provided on the cervical screening homepage to see if you can ‘opt-out’ over the phone, but surprise, surprise, you CANNOT call the number from your mobile phone, only a landline. Obviously smelling a big rat here… that must be why the webpage says you have to WRITE A LETTER to opt-out of the program (and do your parents/husband/boyfriend/partner have to sign it too?) if you missed the little ‘opt-out’ box (and it is absolutely tiny) on the pathology form.

    I have written the following complaint to the NSW cervical register. I expect the usual response about helping little girls not get cancer, or just no response at all. I do mean the bit about contacting Fair Trading NSW though. The program is a customer service after all – even if the program itself acts like a prison service and we’re all inmates.

    ‘Dear NSW Cervical Register,

    I have been reading that the register is now an ‘OPT-OFF’ register, instead of ‘OPT-IN’, thereby not allowing women the right (and privacy) to NOT be automatically included in a ‘program’.

    The webpage makes some rather startling admissions about the program and how women are treated.

    My concerns are this:

    Women are not being treated as mature adults who can be responsible for their own health – instead they have to be talked down to and rounded up into programs.

    The register is in NO WAY voluntary if women have to work out for themselves (or go trawling through the small speak on the webpage to get information) how not to be included in the program. They have to be alert and into the details to see the little ‘opt-out’ box on the pathology form. Most doctors would not tell women they can ‘opt-out’ – then they might actually, opt-out! Imagine that… The majority of women have no idea that cervical screening is voluntary at all. Why should they? The message has always been ‘must’, ‘should’ and in past cases, ‘have to’ (if you listen to most GP’s).

    The suggestion that women have to write a letter to be removed from the register is utterly preposterous. Do they also need their parents/boyfriend/husband to sign it as well and authuorise it?? Like naughty 5-year-old-schoolgirls? I tried calling the contact number with my mobile to confirm if merely calling will get you off the register but the number does not accept calls from mobile phones. Very strange when the majority of the population only has a mobile phone and not a landline anymore!

    It also says that the date-of-birth and test results will NOT be removed from the register. That is very high-handed and condescending. Again, women are not being treated as mature people with rights. The notion that you are keeping these details and you think you HAVE the right to keep them is ridiculous. As a scientist myself I can see why you would want to keep them, but it is completely ignoring basic human rights and requests for your own benefit (are you helping and respecting women or not? It does appear to be not!).

    There’s a very common thread here with this register that women apparently have to be told what to do, are not allowed to make requests about their own information, and have very little rights at all.

    I think a complaint to Fair Trading about the forced ‘opt-out’ procedure and wether you actually have the right to keep information on women when they request to opt-out (date-of-birth and test results) is the nest step. Because honestly, I find the actions of the register (and indeed, the cervical screening program) to be out of the middle ages, and condescending and insulting towards women.

    The women I talk to describe the cervical screening program and register as ‘pressure, propaganda, invasion of privacy, surveillance and harm’ – and I entirely agree…

    Thank you.’


    • Alice says:

      Thank you for the warning, and for making the complaint!
      Even more reason to check all the medical paperwork down to the last tiny detail. The sneaky system does not hesitate to tuck very important opt-out boxes in tiny font in the far corner. I just feel sorry for people who don’t have perfect vision or time to scan through the heaps of text.

      We all should be doing the same with the upcoming opt-out eHealth (PCEHR, MyHR, Australian electronic health records, piracy-invading monster, or whatever else the health dictators in the Australian government are going to rename it to). OPT OUT at all costs!!! We will never be told in advance what the govermnent is going to use our private information for, but one thing is guaranteed: once the information is in their database, it will never be deleted, even if they say it was. In the modern databases, the data is only marked as “deleted”, yet it remains in the database and can be accesses by those who run it, or hack it.

      It isn’t hard to foresee that our medical records data will be passed onto researchers for inventing new ways of cutting corners in the health care, onto medical bureocrats for developing new strategies of control and surveliance, onto screening registers for bombarding us with reminders and pressuring the non-compliant rebels into their “life-saving” programs. Whatever the use of our personal information is going to be, it will not be for our benefit. We already learned it from our “very successful” Pap test program.

      • Ozphoenix says:

        Hi Alice!

        Yes, I heard a while ago about the upcoming change to the eHealth records. The government is very upset that they’ve spent so much money on it, and the take-up rate for it has been rather glacial. Instead of addressing concerns about privacy, they keep pushing the convenience message – all your records in one place, the right hand and left hand know what they are doing, conflicting medicines won’t be prescribed, they’ll know our allergies, etc, etc. Not much of a peep about privacy or that the information won’t be used against us.

        I did go to a new doctor recently, and he seemed to know a lot more about me than what I had just told him. I think I’ll ask if somehow I’ve already been ‘opted-in’ and I have an active eHealth record. I am suspicious.

        I agree, opting out does not delete your current information, it just means the doctor can’t access it (I think we should take that promise with a grain of salt) and new information won’t be added into it, I think.

      • Alice says:

        Ozphoenix, they do promise (as much as we can trust Australian govt about medical records and privacy), that if we opt out from the very start, we won’t have a record at all, and no new data will be added to the database. That’s why it is important to keep an eye on Australian eHealth, and opt out ASAP, once the system is changed from opt-in to opt-out.

  11. Ozphoenix says:

    Oh, and just to add – making the cervical screening register ‘opt-out’ instead of ‘opt-in’ surely must have nothing to do with the falling screening rates due to informed women, could it? Nah…

    • Alex says:

      Well, it makes it kind of confrontational- that someone has to go & “deactivate” the sitaution in contrast to the other party. No offense, but men are usually more okay with that & other people use that.

      Maybe it helps for someone to be able to put words to it (or just a qualitative assessment & not necessarily needing words)?

  12. Ozphoenix says:

    Was pottering around on the internet when I came across this little gem on the Health Complaints Commissioner Tasmania website (for international people, Tasmania is a state of Australia) –

    “BreastScreen Tasmania Refusal to perform a mammogram in absence of consent to share information with AIHW”

    “A woman complained that she was denied a mammogram by BreastScreen Tasmania because she did not tick all the boxes in the consent for screening section of the registration form. She had not agreed to the release of her personal information to the Australian Institute of Health & Welfare (AIHW) and other organisations.
    She was aware that a refusal to provide personal information to other medical practitioners may result in her not being able to participate in the BreastScreen Program, but did not understand how a refusal to share information with AIHW would have any bearing on the quality and outcome of the service being provided. She was seeking a change in policy and procedure, and access to the service.
    BreastScreen advised that it receives funding from both the State and Commonwealth governments and that the provision of information to the AIHW is a requirement of the Commonwealth funding. They acknowledged that the consent for screening section of the form had led to a number of women believing that they could access the service without consenting to the release of this information and the form would be reviewed.
    Our Office asked BreastScreen to include a paragraph in its form explaining the funding arrangements and advising that in order to access the service, the patient / client is required to consent to information being released to other organisations for research purposes. This recommendation was adopted by BreastScreen.
    The woman subsequently indicated that she had another appointment with BreastScreen and had consented to all aspects of the consent section of the registration form enabling her to have a mammogram.”

    Glad to see this poor intelligent woman stood her ground for a little while, at least.

    As for Breastscreen, well, well, well, it ain’t all about helping women at all, is it now? Courtesy of a little ‘funding’ problem which means you freely hand over all the information of the women you call in for screening with all those lovely invitations, to anyone you feel like. Please note the sentence which says, “release of her personal information to the Australian Institute of Health & Welfare (AIHW) and OTHER organisations”. I wonder who the ‘other’ organisations are?

    I’m willing to bet that women going to Breastscreen have no flipping idea about any of this. It’s all been kept very quiet, I think. I’m also willing to bet that exactly the same thing happens with Papscreen. After all, why wouldn’t it? Selling information is profitable. Immoral and wrong, especially with very private, medical information, but profitable.

    How much more will it take to shatter the flowers and fairies view of cancer screening organisations? The caring, smiling photographs of women on their websites? The media releases
    carefully tailored to suck in women with the ‘we care about you!’ propaganda?

    Here’s the link to the website if you want to read more. Quite frankly, reading the other cases there makes for sobering reading. Neither doctors nor hospitals appear to be held to account for anything much. Read the complaint made by a woman that the medical clinic refused to call a ambulance for her dying husband stricken in the medical clinic carpark. The recommendation was that the clinic staff become ‘more flexible’ and ‘deal with an emergency in a more considerate way’. Yeah, use the words please, thank you and sorry when you refuse to call an ambulance because you don’t think it is appropriate when someone is dying a few metres away….

    • Alice says:

      The way Australian government is behaving, with it’s new mantra “everything is for sale”, I’m afraid, the “other organisations” will eventually include insurance companies.

      Insurance companies, especially the ones that provide life insurance, health insurance, loss of income insurance, accident insurance, car insurance and prepaid funeral, will be glad to pay enormous amount of money to get access to our medical records. Will the government resist the lucrative offer? I doubt it!

  13. jola says:

    Hello Everybody

    I’ve found the following article somewhere on the internet about 2 weeks ago, but it is not there any more. The webpage must have been removed for obvious reasons, which you’re going to find out when you read the article. I managed to copy the text and paste it in Word as I was looking for some information about immunisation.
    Here it is:



    Poland is a country situated in Central Europe. Yet, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Poland considerably differs from the vast majority of the other European countries and Russia in such an important and basic aspect of life as human rights. These human rights concern immunisations.

    Let us have a look at the vaccination policy IN POLAND. Every specified item below will purposefully contain  the repeated words: IN POLAND or POLAND in capital letters so that the reader can remember exactly where the inhumane practices take place. 

    IN POLAND, vaccines are given to newborn babies within the first 24 hours after their birth! These vaccines are against TABERCULOSIS and HEPATITIS B.

    IN POLAND, swabs from the ear, nose or throat are hardly ever taken during an infection of a disease, so the doctor does not  know exactly what kind of disease it is – viral, bacterial, parasitic or allergic.

    POLAND is the only country in Europe which has never ratified the European Bioethics Convention. What does it mean? There is an extremely important resolution in the European Bioethics Convention which says that human life and health are the superior values and under no cirumstances can they be subjected to the general well-being. It is IN POLAND that any new medicines and vaccines can be freely tested on people. Well, it can be said that POLAND is the experimental polygon of any pharmaceutical companies.

    In 16 European countries there is no compulsion of vaccinations. In 13 European countries and Russia as well there are compensations for the victims of unwanted vaccine side effects, whereas IN POLAND not only vaccines are compulsory, but also there are no compensations at all for the victims of unwanted vaccine side effects.

    IN POLAND, an institution called the Sanitary and Epidemiological Inspectorate (Pl. Sanepid) is the distributor of vaccines and their supervisor. IN POLAND, trainings for doctors and nurses are run by people cooperating with pharmaceutical companies.
    IN POLAND, a Mamber of Parliament Lidia Gądek who belongs to the Civic Platform Party (Pl. PO – Platforma Obywatelska), introduced a plan made by the mentioned party of including four additional vaccines in the compulsory immunisation calendar. These vaccines are against pneumococcus, meningococcus, chicken pox and the very controversial vaccine against HPV called Gardasil (IN POLAND also named Silgard being the anagram of the word Gardasil). The vaccine is said to be against cervical cancer, but it is becoming known more and more widely that the HPV vaccine is causing fatal side effects. IN POLAND, the Gardasil is to be for free. However, there is a reason for fear because, unfortunately, IN POLAND, when it comes to medical practices,”for free” means ”compulsory”. It is terrifying that POLAND as the first and only country in the world is introducing the controversial HPV vaccine as compulsory. The HPV vaccine has been strongly criticised and protested against in other coutries.  In France, many doctors filed a written petition against using the Gardasil vaccine (http://sanevax.org/french-petition-hpv-vaccines/), and in Japan the Department for Health withdrew their approval for the HPV vaccine (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/806645). It is appaling that the number of the HPV vaccine is still growing. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gCVCP8BFrU  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5GquxhjDRY  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2i-r39hok  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgZbwSpf-sc

    Well, it looks like Polish girls are next in turn. IN POLAND, there exists the so called STOP NOP FOUNDATION (Pl. NOP – Niepożądane Odczyny Poszczepienne – Unwanted Side Effects of Vaccines). Every week, the organisation receives  a great number of reports from parents / carers of babies and teenagers as well as adults about serious side effects of vaccines (miscellaneous ones). The STOP NOP work very hard helping the harmed victims and their families with legal aspects concerning the procedures of side effects of vaccines. Nevertheless, the STOP NOP are not either respected or taken seriously at all by the Polish Government. In July 2015, when the STOP NOP representatives participated in the meeting of the National Health Committee of Health regarding the new vaccine regulations, they were not allowed to speak, though they had pass permits as the meeting participants! One of the MPs even questioned their presence in the meeting asking what they were doing there. It implies that the reports of as many as 17.000 parents who informed the STOP NOP about serious side effects of vaccines were totally ignored, just thrown away.
    One of the main associated members of the employers’ union IN POLAND is INFARMA. Infarma consists of 29 pharmaceutical companies. In such circumstances, lobbying and pressure for the new vaccine law to be passed are unavoidable. Furthermore, the INFARMA wants to secretly push through a law which will allow to introduce vaccines against influenza in regulations of workplaces IN POLAND. This law is going to be compulsory as well. IN POLAND, there are plans to vaccinate newborn babies against influenza. The issue of vaccinating pregnant women against influenza is being also considered, which is more and more often mentioned in advertisements and medical recommendations. However, there is no information in the influenza vaccine leaflets about any clinical research on the prenatal development. Nobody has done it so far and it looks like pregnant women are supposed to be medical guinea pigs. Unfortunately, this vaccine may cause a permanent damage of the foetus. It seems vital to mention, however, that 95% OF MEDICAL STAFF IN POLAND DO NOT GET VACCINATED! Well, if the 95% were immunised, the vaccination plan would be carried out, wouldn’t it?
    Let’s come back to the topic of the introduction of the HPV vaccine – Gardasil (also known as Silgard in Poland). When 11 and 12-year-old girls were vaccinated with Gardasil IN POLAND, a great number of their parents were not informed at all about the side effects of the vaccine! Even though parents have reported the side effects, often serious ones, they have been simply ignored by the medical staff. They simply hear from doctors that what has happened to their daughters has nothing in common with the vaccine!
    In Denmark, a great number of girls have been permanently harmed by the HPV vaccine.
    Similarly, 300 girls in Columbia experienced serious side effects of the same vaccine, where it caused paralysis and consciousness loss.
    IN POLAND, the same incidents take place, but THEY ARE NOT SPOKEN ABOUT! Once, a teacher from one of smaller junior high schools IN POLAND was horribly shocked to see that SEVERAL DOZENS of girls vaccinated against HPV fainted, lost consciousness and got seizures after returning to school. Before that, they had been fetched to a medical centre and given the HPV Gardasil vaccine. When the teacher wanted to call for an ambulance, the school headteacher infromed her that if she did this, she would be dismissed from work immediately! The whole incident was barefacedly camouflaged! Nobody got to know about this! There are lots of incidents IN POLAND in which GIRLS, WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS’ KNOWLEDGE, ARE TAKEN TO MEDICAL CENTRES AND VACCINATED WITH GARDASIL (THE HPV VACCINE)! To make matters worse, IN POLAND only 1% of doctors report side effects of any vaccines that children’s parents inform them about! Well, how come that IN POLAND, merely 1% of doctors act in accordance with the rules of the medical ethic? Polish girls are aimed to be medical guinea pigs on whom HPV Gardasil is being tested. Large numbers of girls all over the world who have been vaccinated with Gardasil, have been experiencing dramatic side effects, which mostly are: 
    -memory and concentration disorders
    -sleeping problems
    -changes in the sleep rhythm
    A great number of girls experience:
    -hypersensitivity to bright light and have blurred vision
    -dysponea during physical activity. The dysponea is combined with heart palpitation.
    -muscular fatigue which impedes walking
    The mascular fatigue experienced by the HPV vaccine victims is felt as if numbness of arms and legs, or as paralysed arms and shoulders as well as legs which makes it really impossible to walk.
    The next side effects of the Gardasil vaccine are:
    -nausea and stomachache
    -lots of girls suddenly experience a wide range of food allergy, which makes them change their diet.
    -large numbers of girls suffer from unintentional movements, muscle cramps especially in their hands and legs. Plenty of the girls report their muscles are weakened and many of them move on wheelchairs.

    More horrifying issue is that the HPV Gardasil vaccine is closely linked to premature menopause in girls and young women who experience lack of menstruation even as early as at the age of 16. Gardasil makes ovaries stop working. There is the evidence of the potential of the HPV vaccine to trigger a life-disabling autoimmune condition. How dreadful and distressing it must be for young women to face the fact that they will not be able to have children in the future. http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/studyhpv-vaccine-linked-to-premature-menopause-in-young-girls/
    Not only does Gardasil bring about serious health deterioration, but it also causes infertility. Can it be concluded that the specific HPV vaccine WAS PURPOSEFULLY (not unintentionally!) PRODUCED TO DEPOPULATE NATIONS (especially Slavic)?
    In spite of so many experienced, proven and testified dramatic side effects of the HPV vaccine (Gardasil) , THE POLISH GOVERNMENT VOTED FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF THE FATAL VACCINE. It seems important to mention that the vast majority of Members of Parliament IN POLAND voted for this controversial vaccine. Amongst 432 MPs, as many as 406 voted for the lethal HPV vaccine, 25 were against it, whereas only 1 MP abstained from the vote. To top it all, the Senate of the Republic of Poland  voted for it as well! Finally, the new President of POLAND, Andrzej Duda signed the new law, according to which the HPV vaccine (Gardasil) IS TO BE COMPULSORY IN POLAND FROM THE BEGINNING OF 2017.
    What can people IN POLAND who do not wish to immunise their children do now? It needs to be emphasised that they do not give their consent to vaccinating their children not because they simply do not wish to do so for some weird reasons. They do so for fear of very serious and often horrifying side effects that many children have been experiencing, or because their children have got side effects after being given previous vaccines. What can parents IN POLAND do when their daughters are fetched to medical centres, OFTEN SECRETLY, to be given an HPV jab? What can they expect in case they decline the vaccine? What will happen to them and their children if they decline the HPV Gardasil and other vaccines? They realise severe consequences of the TOTALITARIAN AND TOTALLY ROTTEN MEDICAL SYSTEM IN POLAND against which they have to fight. This is the ill system which charges them with huge amounts of money to pay for not having their child / children vaccinated.
    The medical practices IN POLAND can be undoubtedly described as absolutely inhumane. The question is when Polish parents, who live IN POLAND will have the legal right to decide about their children’s health and well-being. How is it possible that IN POLAND people are forced to undergo a medical procedure without their giving prior informed consent to having such a procedure done?!
    Despaired parents from POLAND.

    • Alex says:

      Hey, Jola. Poland was trying to mandate all kinds of mandatory probing for women that were looking to get jobs, too- if I remember a few of your posts correctly. It certainly sounds like Nazi occupation stained Poland’s style of doing things (although I’ve heard the Soviet era had some similarities).

      How are things otherwise? Are you getting slammed with the migrant stuff where you live? I remember thinking of you when I heard Poland’s reaction to all that, even though it seems you & there don’t mix so well on some issues.

      P.S.: I know it’s not the same country, but how does the Czech Republic compare? I remember you suggesting it to me way back & it still seems like a good place that I’m very keen on moving to. I’m still trying to tie up some things with citizenship & it seems that the Czechs might leave the EU over all this immigration/invasion bullshit (although I’ve heard you can get residency with quite a few countries if you buy property there- Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Latvia are the only ones I know, but it seems there are others).

      • Anonymous says:

        Thanks, Jola. I’d really appreciate that. As for the Czech Republic, does that mean if the children are born there or just that the ARE there? Does it make a difference if you’re homeschooling them? I figure I’ll be heading to somewhere in Eastern Europe, so if you find anything on other places would be great.

        Just to mention it (obth to ask if you know anything about them & because we seem to have similar tastes in environments): I still think of Spain & the rest of the Mediterranean, but it seeems it would be pretty hard to make ends meet at the moment. Also, there seems to be what’s called a “gag law” in place in Spain right now (makes public behavior more or less criminal). That’s something I was looking to get away from America for, but then maybe Spain will dissolve that. Portugal still seems interesting & it seems you can get residency by buying property there.

      • Jola says:

        Hi Alex

        Yes, indeed, Poland has been always trying to mandate the totalitarian medical requirements on the society. Luckily, the compulsory humiliating pap smear was so much criticised and protested against that it didn’t come out. As for immunisation regulations, they have remained from the 60’s and they must be changed as soon as possible, but big pharma’s servants will do anything for money so they are so persistent in forcing parents to have their children vaccinated. Well, there are old regulations and laws as well as people whose only aim is to get money from the pharmaceutical companies for promoting the vaccines. However, more and more parents in Poland are becoming more aware of the dangers on the vaccines, especially of the HPV Gardasil vaccine and they decide not to have their children vaccinated. Vaccination awareness campaigns are growing and attracting greater numbers of people who don’t care about being charged with some money for not having their children vaccinated as they fight against these lawless penalties imposed on them by town or city mayors, or by the Sanitary and Epidemiological Institution. These fines are against the Constitution and more and more Polish people are waking up and perceiving that they have something like the Constitution, like human rights, like one of their basic rights just to decline a medical intervention which they do not give their consent to at all. This is really wonderful and incredible. I, myself, don’t recognise the Polish society that have been changing day by day, week by week, etc. and passing their knowledge to other people. It is like a chain. These courageous people, are organising themselves into groups that give lectures to the public on side effects of the vaccines. The medical staff are really beginning to be scared of what is going on and they are doing all they can to stop it, but somehow they aren’t able to do this – the more they are trying to ”calm the protesters down”, the more protests, discontent, criticism and aggravation they face from these people – unbelievable but it is happening. The unreasonable and inhumane law regarding the vaccinations will be changed sooner or later. In Poland, not vaccinated children, are allowed to attend infant nurseries, nurseries and schools, though there have been many actions from the stubborn government to ”punish” defiant people. Unfortunately, in the Czech Republic, children are not so lucky – they have to be vaccinated. But, this information is on the basis of what I watched on youtube about the Czech Republic – I admit my husband and I are very disappointed with this information as we were planning to move to the Czech Republic. I’m thinking of telephoning some people from immunisation awareness groups in the Czech Republic to ask them what the situation looks like there. I feel something must be changing in that country, too. In my free time, I will find some phone numbers and call. Writing e-mails may not make sense as the people may be too busy to reply at all. I am very curious about this.
        I will let you know when I have found out the information. All the best for you.

  14. Megan says:

    I was at university in the early 90s and started to get some shoulder and neck pain every now and again. It happened for a couple of days and then went away for a week, then it came suddenly back for another day or so. It happened again a few weeks later and it was really bad for two days and I had to miss an essay deadline that was quite important.

    I went to see a uni doctor, who was a man probably in his 50s. He had me get down to my bra and knickers and felt my back and shoulders and stuff, then made me bend over in front of him while he felt my back and hips. Then he examined my hips while I stood up straight, and his hip exam seemingly included running his hands over my bum!!

    He said he didn’t know what the problem was and that I needed to see him again the next week. The prick wouldn’t give me a medical note until the second appointment, so I had to go back and strip down for him again. The pain actually didn’t come back, and he never figured out what it was, but he did give me the note.

    About a year later, a friend of mine went to see the same doctor with some tummy problems. She said he made her take off her top, trousers and knickers (so she was just in a bra). He felt her tummy, then had her put her hands up against the wall, with her legs apart, and did an internal exam from behind.

    An internal exam in that way?! I’m sure that my friend was an attractive netball player was just a coincidence!!

    We agreed that the guy was a grade-A creeper, and that we’d never see him again.

  15. Teresa Lovejoy says:

    If one single woman can be saved by my story, all this agony those criminal doctors inflicted on me for personal gain will not be in vain…. Knowledge is power, and here in Australia 2 in 5 women will have a hysterectomy by the time she is 65. Ninety per cent are unnecessary and can do far more harm than good. Fabricating cancer is one of the dirty tricks gynaecologists use to frighten healthy women into unnecessary hysterectomies. Gynaecologists get very, very rich doing unnecessary hysterectomies…

    Here are some comments to my story……

    ……..MY HORROR STORY…….
    I was one of those lucky women who never suffered any gynaecological problems in the 58 years I had my precious female organs. I trusted the female doctor who did my yearly Pap smear (which she insisted I have every year, despite never, ever having abnormal cells). I did not know she was in cahoots with corrupt gynaecologists looking for easy prey to use for greed and training material. She forced me into seeing a gynaecologist writing that I had post-menopausal bleeding, which was a blatant lie, as I NEVER had a single drop of blood since my menopause finished 5 1/2 years before. She would not take “NO” for an answer. She did everything to gain my trust, so I didn’t understand what was going on. She wore me down until I gave in. I went to the gynaecologist she referred me to so he could examine me, say I’m fine and send me home. I’d never seen him before in my life. As soon as I sat down, he opened the referral, and the first words out of his mouth was: “You have bleeding. I’m giving you a curette.” I was shocked. He didn’t ask me one single question, and he didn’t examine me. I said I had no bleeding, and I was not having a curette, but he would not take “NO” for an answer. He already had me booked in for a curette. I was not told that it is my choice. He manipulated and coerced me until I gave in. At the post-op appointment 2 weeks later, he said I had cancer and had to have a hysterectomy. He’d already sent the referral to MMC (a public hospital I had never been to before, and was not told Monash Medical Centre is a teaching hospital). I only went there to be examined, told I’m fine, and sent home. (moderated) in Gynaecology/oncology called me in after the waiting room was empty. He then mentioned the bleeding. I was so angry, I said: “Why do you people keep saying I had bleeding, when I hadn’t had a single drop since my menopause finished over 5 years ago, until I was given the curette and bled for 3 days”. He ignored me and told me he was going to take out my cervix, my uterus, my fallopian tubes, and my ovaries. And he was going to do it by laparoscopy, but still may have to cut me open.” Again I was shocked. I said: I have no bleeding, I have no pain, I have no symptoms whatsoever, and begged for another option.” He went berserk. His face was full of anger and contempt as he yelled at me: “YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION. YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DON’T HAVE TO HAVE CHEMOTHERAPY. NOT LIKE ALL THOSE WOMEN IN THE WAITING ROOM”, and he flicked his hand toward the empty waiting room and said: “THEY WEREN’T SO LUCKY”. I was shocked. He then answered every question I asked with: You’ll be fine, and insisted I go in, in 2 days. Then he shoved a piece of paper in front of me and pointed where to sign. He did not go through one thing written on that form. I asked him if he’d done laparoscopy surgery before, and he looked me in the eye and told me he’d done hundreds that he could do them with his eyes closed. A blatant lie. I did not know that after I left he added on the form he forced me to sign that he may take out some pelvic lymph nodes as well. He sprung that on me just before the surgery. To make a long story short. He mutilated 6 healthy organs from my body, and God knows how many lymph nodes, as that was covered-up. He botched it beyond repair leaving me wailing in agony every day and bleeding out since he butchered me in June 2005. The morning after he slaughtered my organs, he smugly told me that I was as clean as a whistle. That all my removed organs had been healthy. The whole system took his side and did everything to discredit me and spread the word I was paranoid. They denied that I was in any pain, and kept sending me to psychiatrists who just kept pushing drugs on me and telling me they found nothing wrong in the tests when I kept telling them how much pain I’m in. I’ve never in my life been touched by such evil. I was a victim of fraud, and criminal medical malpractice, and my health and my life has been destroyed by those evil doctors. Why aren’t women warned about these corrupt doctors who trick healthy women into unnecessary hysterectomies? This surgical racket has been going on for decades, and will never stop because as Dr (moderated) said: “The system is still geared to protecting doctors’ reputations rather than protecting patients from unnecessary harm”…

    DrSuarna Mehulic…. Dear June, I am in this difficult situation because I objected such charlatans and their treatment of patients. Your story is unfortunately not uncommon. I have seen it before and I have seen situation where when unethical and unprofessional doctors take all reproductive organs of the patient and cause chronic pain due to botched and unnecessary surgeries. After that is done their next step is to refer patient to psychiatrist. It is absurd reality that these unethical , unprofessional people always get away with everything wrong they do , because they make revenue for the institutions. Most likely you asked yourself lots of time ” why me” but I have to tell you that it is not only you. Only what I know for sure that until values such as honesty, accountability, humanity are surpassed by greediness, business oriented medicine , these issues will not get resolved. There were times when being physician was honored profession and being public servant was the most honored role in the society. I think values has been changed to most honored status of being rich instead. Possibly nationwide campaign to return these values to medicine is of uttermost importance in times to come !

    June Gardner…. Thank you so much for your compassion, and for the TRUTH, Dr Sue. I’ve been trying to tell women since it happened to me in June 2005, but nobody believes me. I berate myself every day, for being so stupid. Every fibre in my body told me they were wrong, and to RUN for my life, but before this happened, I had complete trust in that female doctor. She did everything to gain my trust, so every time she said I had something wrong, and manipulated and forced her will on me until she wore me down, I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt. My trust was so misplaced, but doctors are revered as the most trusted profession here, and I took that literally. I rarely got sick, so I was totally medically ignorant….THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for believing my story. I prayed every day to find someone like you who isn’t afraid to blow the whistle on her own profession. God bless you Dr Sue. I’m crying, but it’s for joy that I found you.

    Garrick Sitongia Wow June, that’s really a great reply from DrSuarna.

    June Gardner It great to find an honest doctor who validated my story Garrick, and she lives in America. It would NEVER happen here in Australia, as the corrupt complaints depts. sided with the doctors who harmed me, and not only turned against me, but called me unrealistic, and wrote it was a matter of science and knowledge, that the doctors did no wrong, and I should be lucky they operated on me immediately as some women have to wait up to 9 months for elective hysterectomies. As you can see from my story, I was not told it was elective, and I was bullied and threatened into it. And what science and knowledge? All my removed organs had been healthy, and I was lied to, deceived, totally misled, misinformed, and hoodwinked into immediate surgery. The complaints depts. also said that I went looking medical intervention for bleeding, (a blatant lie) and they had the gall to say that all the agony I’m going through, and the non-stop bleeding caused by the surgery was common after a hysterectomy, and to go find a pain clinic. If that was the case, there would be millions of women worldwide, doubled over in agony, needing wheelchairs, or walking aids to get around.

    Janice Louise Patients need to learn not to give the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for sharing your story June.

    Elizabeth Eugenia LaBozetta June, from gleaning detail from your story there is no doubt in my mind that you were targeted for student surgery training and that you somehow fit the profile of someone they felt they could take full advantage of and get away with it. (as in NOT a “club” member who are protected from such flagrant human-rights abuses as long as they follow “club” rules to the letter) That God for honest doctors like Dr. Suarna who are not afraid to tell the truth. The real doctors.

    June Gardner You are so right Elizabeth. Thought you’d like to read these few paragraphs said by residents at a teaching hospital, from the chapter called: “Negotiating to do Surgery”… After a potential patient was located, she had to be persuaded to have surgery. As one resident put it: “You have to look for your surgical procedures; you have to go after patients. Because no one is crazy enough to come and say, hey, here I am, I want you to operate on me. You have to sometimes convince the patient that she is really sick, and that she is better off with a surgical procedure.”……”The residents’ tactics, based on high volume, were similar to that of any effective sales person, regardless of the product; that is, the greater the number of contacts, the greater the probability of making a sale. This type of high-turnover sale was especially suited to the high-volume, quick turnover conditions in the clinics and emergency room. Like any sophisticated salesperson, a resident could judge within minutes whether a woman was going to buy a hysterectomy. When it appeared that she wasn’t, he used another tactic. Residents believed that women would eventually accept surgery if they were given some time to think it over. Thus, after a resident had completed his pitch and the woman was still reluctant, he would tell her that he would call her in a week and discuss the surgery further. The woman was dismissed and the next prospective case was brought into the examining room. The entire interaction, including physical examination, usually took three or four minutes”….. “Once the woman agreed to surgery, she lost whatever power she previously had had – the power of refusal. The situation changed from one of negotiation to complete control by the resident. The patient was expected to trust the knowledge and wisdom of her doctor. She was not consulted on the form her surgery would take nor was it expected that she was capable of understanding medical-surgical mysteries. The resident, influenced by his own need for practice, decided what operation he would do. Women were not aware that there was a choice.”…..”Surgical teaching programs are having increasing difficulty finding subjects to learn on because they greatly depend on the availability of ward or indigent patients and with increased third-party payments, the number of such patients is shrinking. As a consequence, residents in many city hospitals have done more “selling.”…….” To improve my surgical technique and to get a chance to do some of the surgeries that we don’t get a chance to do otherwise, I went for radical surgery where your dissect out everything; you look for everything”…. “I do enjoy it, and think any doctor is lucky to do radical surgery”…..”It is by mistakes that you grow and mature as a physician. You learn not to do it again; I think that is important. Because if I wasn’t ever going to make any mistakes, there wouldn’t be any reason for me to spend four years being a resident”…..”I don’t know if you can call it a mistake or something that you aren’t experienced with and do something wrong. You can’t call it a mistake. It’s inexperience. If you aren’t taught something, you can’t do it.”….

    • Alice says:

      Your story is horrifying. I hope you will recover and never see a predatory doctor again. Some doctors are too dangerous for our lives, and the medical system is covering it up!

      If you wish to help more women, you can leave comments on http://www.ratemds.com about each doctor or surgeon that you saw along that dreadful journey. Your comments may save so many lives.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Welcome to the forum.
      Your account is horrifying, but you’re not alone, many women are put through unnecessary hysterectomies. I think the female body is viewed so disrespectfully by the medical profession that our reproductive organs are viewed as disposable, a business opportunity.
      I’ve heard a few doctors say over the years (not to me) “well, you’re not having children at your age or having more children, so you might as well get rid of it, it’s just a potential site for cancer “. Some women are told, “it’s better than years of heavy periods” etc. My SIL was given that line, she had a hysterectomy for fibroids, of course, they usually shrink after menopause and she was close to that age when she had the surgery.
      What bits of the male body should be removed just in case?

      It feels like a war is going on with competing vested interests vying for a slice of the action, look at the poor cervix, the warped focus of women’s healthcare, a cancer that affects fewer than 1% of women. The cervix is subject to medical surveillance for most of our lives, and the majority of women here end up having something “done” to their cervix.
      I’ve never viewed this as healthcare, it’s medical abuse. (I’m sure it’s viewed as great business by vested interests)

      I’m so sorry you were put through hell by the very people we’re supposed to trust. I’ve always viewed the medical profession as a threat, I stand guard over my asymptomatic body. Thank you for warning other women, I’m sure you’ll save other women from the same abuse/ordeal.

    • Alex says:

      May I ask why you even went in for these things? I don’t get why you’d show up for surgery or anything else.

      Something about their tactics:
      At the end of the day, them saying “have to” only applies to the fact that an action has to be engaged in order to occur. I notice that a lot of people mentally connect it with dying as a knee-jerk reaction (since that’s what tends to happen if a need is not met).

      There’s also the concept of believing that what’s in front of you is real- a presumed honesty & accuracy from other people. Not necessarily a misplaced thing, since it IS pretty weird for people to lie for nothing, but there are those that try to use this against people.

      This presenting of information applies in other ways, as well. If they said that this is what you “will be having” or what they’re “going to be doing,” that’s PRESENTING that this is a fixed situation & there exists no capacity for reality to develop any other way. They are more or less saying: “I’m telling the truth, this situation can’t unfurl any other way.” Even though an action has to be engaged in order to occur & if it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t occur.

    • linda says:

      I’m so sorry this happened to you Teresa. I can not imagine how awful things have been for you. This site and everyone here totally understands how you feel. I have fou d friendship here and help. I hope you do to. Please read all the articles and posts and draw strength from the feeling you are now free of doctors and will be in control of any consult from now on. Learn to heal yourself. Research on the internet any problems,diagnose yourself and get any medicines or preferablty herbs and natural remedies yourself. There is no reason why you ever need to visit a doctor ever again. These charlatans have not progressed since medieval times. Since the beginning of time these creeps have raped, butchered and mutilated, poisoned more patients than they have ever made well. Through history they gave probably killed millions but only genuinely thousands. What makes men and women trust these people I will never know. Why are they put on pedastals,trusted and worshipped?
      The Nhs murdered my dad and last year my best friend. They were never out of my dads bum pretending he had prostate cancer. When he died he went of heart failure , records show he never had cancer yet he spent 20 years of his life having treatment. They have women raped by the million with their outdated pap tests. Doctors and the medical profession disgust me. They are obsessed with bums, breasts,vaginas and cancer.

  16. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    “They are obsessed with bums, breasts, vaginas and cancer”
    I suppose it’s hardly surprising when initially the profession was almost entirely male, men drunk with power and treated like Gods, untouchable. How dare you complain, silly girl!
    I think the cancer bit is often just an excuse to get women on the table and in a vulnerable position. We don’t see the same attitudes and conduct directed at men, that would have been unthinkable to the profession and no fun at all. Controlling the Pill means controlling women, controlling childbirth, same thing etc. etc.

    It really is depressing to read the comments in the latest edition of “Australian Doctor”, the article is about the changes to the cervical screening program. (due to start in 2017)
    The ignorance is frightening, so many are concerned about pushing the first test to age 25, “it should be 18 at the latest”, they know girls who started having sex at 12 or 13, one makes the comment that he’s seen a few cases of CIN 1 and 2 in women under 25 (I bet he has, they’re called false positives!)

    One doctor makes the point that every 5 years means s/he won’t be able to do a full and regular exam including a breast exam….that says one thing to me – incompetence!
    Routine breast exams have not been recommended for years, I hope s/he explains that to her patient and gets express informed consent – if she has a personal belief in the exam, she needs to get express proper consent. I’ll bet she doesn’t…it’s not being thorough, you’re risking your patients health.
    I have to wonder whether some doctors just don’t want to give up breast exam if they feel like doing one, I’m sure some are relieved the new test is invasive and the only downside is the 5 yearly interval and the loss of really young women.
    Excess biopsies/procedures/surgery/over-treatment are no fun….the casual reach for the female body needs to stop, they wouldn’t do that to a male patient, and it shouldn’t happen to women either. For so long they’ve been able to do as they pleased, time to change that…excess carries risk.
    The Red Book for GPs makes clear routine breast exams are not recommended at any age, yet we have those who persist…more needs to be done, make it known that these exams are not recommended and carry risk so women know excess is not better. It shouldn’t be up to us, but it seems that’s the only way to change things, we can access HPV self-testing kits online, suddenly you can get them through your GP, (if you know about them) the screening rate continues to fall despite all the pressure and campaigns, so they’re finally changing the cervical screening program etc. This says to me that more women are making an informed decision NOT to screen, these campaigns don’t have an impact on informed women.

    I was disappointed to hear the Govt is going to spend $56M on another breast screening “awareness” campaign in an attempt to boost breast screening numbers. (which continue to fall, except I hear more women aged 70 to 74 are screening, so more over-diagnosis on the way) Sussan Ley (Minister for Health) wants to get rid of waste, yet she’s wasting money on an awareness campaign for a highly controversial program. The statement on the Govt website says that mortality from breast cancer has fallen by 37% (or something like that) since screening started, this is dishonest and they know it, most of that fall is about better treatments, not screening.
    The number of women who accept their “invitation” to screen will continue to fall and they can’t do a damn thing about it. Can you see why they’re desperate to keep the evidence from women, you can’t mislead, pressure, scare or confuse an informed woman.

    • Alice says:

      The reluctance and opposition of Australian medical circles’ to move to 5-yearly tests only proves that the useless and harmful pap smears and cervical cancer “program” has been (and still is) just an excuse for herding women (especially young ones) into doctor’s offices for medical and government surveillance of their reproductive organs.
      The government got the info on what’s happening in each woman’s vagina, and doctors got the money. Perfect!? Nobody cares that millions of women have been mutilated along the way.

    • ADM says:

      Men definitely do not get the same treatment as women in the medical system. There are no national prostate or testicular cancer screening programs despite prostate screening being the number one cancer among men and TC being about as common as CC. Any intimate exam to detect PC or TC is not recommended. According to the Canadian Cancer Society website “there is not enough evidence to recommend regular testicular exams”. Yet for CC it states that “all women who have been sexually active should have regular Pap tests by the time they are 21 years of age”. In Canada it is estimated that this year 1050 men will get TC and 1500 women will get CC. Once a man is done having children doctors don’t recommend removal of the testicles or prostrate to prevent cancer. It would never happen that a man goes to the Dr for a sore throat and gets hounded and unrelated medical treatment denied because his testicular exam isn’t up to date and he refuses to have one right then.

      • ADM says:

        Excellent article. What continues to frustrate me is that paps don’t get the same level of research and scrutiny. How many women have received unnecessary treatment and surgery because of false positives with a pap smear.

  17. Moo says:

    If you live in Ontario, Canada then there is some news. This recent bulletin http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/. . There is an exclusion code Q140A (please check) for pap test for “women who are not sexually active” along either those who have had a hysterectomy or getting treatment elsewhere for cervical disease. This might help a few women to get their doctor off their back.

    Also the quotas go in every September and April so I usually like to avoid going to see doctors for non urgent reasons in those months before since they get predatory on any women pushing paps showing up at clinics to fill their quotas.

  18. Alice (Australia) says:

    A very interesting article: Why most doctors would rather die than endure the pain of treatment they inflict on others

    The article is 3.5 years old, yet nothing changed. And is unlikely to change. Medicine is a big business, processing patients like inanimate objects, with minimum time and maximum profit. Unless the patient does their own research, questions every “recommendation”, insists on making their own decisions, and makes sure their wishes are not ignored, there is very little chance to benefit from any treatment or procedure. The medical system will continue to do what’s best in its interests, not ours.

    The article is about terminal illnesses, but the medical attitudes are the same as in the rest of health care: patients are not told the truth, not given the option to make an informed decision.

    “While we give care to patients, the vast majority of doctors I know would not want this for themselves. Yet this fact has long been taboo in the medical world.”

    “We also need to get much more frank about what is medically possible and what is not. But that is very difficult when our health service’s ability to achieve things is so often used in Parliament by ministers and MPs to make political points.”

  19. Si says:

    This Kickstarter project is concerning; we seem to be moving closer to an Orwellian future where women’s vaginas will be continually wired up and monitored for potential gynecological problems.
    “Enter the Looncup: It’s connected to an app on your smartphone, which will tell you in real-time how full your cup is, when it’s time to empty it, and the volume at which you’re flowing. The fuller your menstrual cup, the more alerts you’ll get. It also claims to help detect gynecological problems by monitoring the color the period blood, which could indicate potential issues.”

  20. adawells says:


    This news item seems to imply that women in Australia will all be offered self-testing from 2017.

    • Alice (Australia) says:

      Unfortunately, self-tests will be available only to “underscreened or never screened”.
      So a woman who doesn’t want to be penetrated by a stranger will be forced to discuss her screening history with the doctor fist, and then fight off the pressure to have a test there and then in the doctor’s office.

      Then, the woman’s personal information and test results will still be passed to the government-run pap register for surveillance, and she will be annoyed with all sorts of reminders in the future.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:


      No chance, only for those who’ve never screened or the under screened.
      Of course, women will read and hear about this option and some may refuse the invasive test or buy a self test kit. I suppose they feel those who screen regularly will still follow orders. I think we’ll see a lot of women demanding and finding a way to access self test kits. Women will be told self testing is not as reliable, that will work on some women and keep them on the couch.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        No problem, it’s laughable that anyone could say they present screening as a choice.

        “My Mum missed her smear test, now I miss my Mum”…is that offering women a choice, covering risks and benefits and extending an “offer”…hardly, it’s a threat, a scare tactic, making women/mothers feel guilty, concerned for their children…it’s hardly an approach taken when you’re extending an offer. You have a choice, pap test and you’ll live to see your children grow up, no pap test and you run a terrible risk – early and preventable death, silly woman! I haven’t seen the likes of this campaign in bowel or prostate screening, it’s a tactic/approach reserved for women’s screening.

        It’s like the pro-screeners who use informed consent to push screening, “we want women to make an informed choice to screen”…no, informed choice means making up our own minds, that might be a yes or a no. The implication: the only informed choice is to screen.
        Some try to pretend women are free to screen or not, but then hasten to take away any choice, “but we strongly urge women to screen, it could save your life!”.

        They KNOW there is little to no respect for informed consent (and even consent is often missing) in practice, that’s how the program has always worked, they need numbers and they’ll get them any way they can, link it to the Pill, opportunistic screening, pay off GPs.
        Choice? You must be joking….
        You can print as many booklets as you like, but with the same coercive, unethical and abusive system in place, choice is just a word.

      • kat rehman says:

        Elizabeth just checked the NHS website you left a comment on a while ago and it is up!! It past the moderator!

      • adawells says:

        Thank you for contributing to the NHS website Elizabeth. I noticed that Dr Mackie has replied to your comment. It’s great to have the discussion out in the open on NHS webpages now.

        Kat, I also noticed that on the cervical screening webpage a woman has recently commented asking how she can opt out of screening and stop the letters. I’ve tried all the passwords I know, and also tried resetting my password, but just can’t get in again. You said you’d only been able to post 2 comments, so I’m just wondering if it only allows you to make two comments….?

  21. adawells says:

    Our local university shop is now selling T-shirts with the following big logo across the front:
    Something to wear to the next doctors appointment, I think.

    • linda says:

      I was never given a choice. I was hoodwinked into believing smear tests were compulsory because I was on the pill. I endured several negative experiences because of smear tests. I was coerced, bullied, forced and tricked into allowing them access to my private parts. The law quite clearly states rape with an instrument is considered a crime in the UK. What diffetence is their approach to that of a rapist holding a knife to my throat demanding access to my vagina? I am left with flashbacks, the certain knowledge they murdered a baby, a feeling the NHS owns my vagina, distrust and avoidence of doctors. I will never get over it. They knew I was low risk. I should have been allowed choice. They had no respect for me whatsoever.
      An entire adult life given over to periodic scrutiny of their vaginas. How is this considered good for women? I am glad i called a halt to it 5 years ago. I will live my life free of this ridiculous intrusion.

      • kleigh us says:

        It is rape.

      • ADM says:

        I was never given a choice either. If I wanted BC I had to have the full well woman’s exam every year which included a pap test. I was never told what a pap test was for or the risks or benefits of screening much less given the option of declining screening. Withholding BC for the well woman’s exam including the pap is coercion which is illegal and unethical. Coercion for an invasive and intimate exam amounts to sexual assault. Legally and ethically every medical test or procedure requires informed consent which includes informed refusal.

  22. Alex says:

    adawells: That’s a good idea!

    This reminds me of something that happened over the summer: I was going to restaurant for my birthday with some family & while we were waiting, I saw a guy wearing some weird thing around his neck. It looked a bit like a fire piston, but I wasn’t sure. So when we were going to our table, I ask him what it is & he said it was an “african rape whistle.” Then I say “But they don’t give a shit in Africa” (there was also a twenty-something chick with the group & she nodded). Then he says that that’s the reason they have the whistle. Then I say: “No, that’s why you have guns & machetes” (the chick nodded to this as well).

    I notice that when guys are thinking whistles are the answer & chicks are thinking that weapons are the answer (instead of both thinking weapons), there’s a serious problem. If nothing else, these twenty-something college students tend to be trend-setters (or give it momentum) & this is particularly true intellectually. Does this mean that the woman’s going to have to fight the group of grown men that outweigh her by a hundred pounds each & the guys that are around are going to be acting like spectators? The answer to any problem seems to be “record things & site regulations,” even when people get a green light for wantonly killing people on camera.

    Just something I’m noticing about the college generation. Maybe that’s why things are as dangerous as they’ve increasingly gotten at colleges? None of these intended victims is a violent threat?

  23. adawells says:

    Another item from the Victorian age.

  24. adawells says:


    Halfway down the third column on this page 1483, A. Raffle and M. Quinn have written:

    “Men need to be protected from the damage that the first 20 years of cervical screening inflicted on women…”

    Unfortunately I have not been able to get hold of the document about this damage that the references refers to.

    • Moo says:

      This link is only an excerpt and you would have to find a link to the correct journal publication to read the whole of the article.

      I think the “men have to be protected from the damage of the first 20 years of cervical screening inflicted on women….” Is referring to any proposed prostate screening programme. Very well that men are thought to be needing protection from unnecessary prostate treatments (prostate removal means sexual impotence and /or incontenience) but just ignore all the harm that continued cervical screenings does for women. I suppose that removing cervix and uterus that a woman can still have sex but just not enjoy it so much or that she has increased risk of heart disease is not important to the commenters.

  25. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    With the Pill starting to come off script in the States (California and Oregon) there must be a lot of worried doctors.
    Note comment by Countmeamused…love his comments

    • Alice (Australia) says:

      Oh, pity we won’t see any change on our Medieval Paternalistic Australia with its self-declared “best in the world health care system”. This wonderful system is adamant that patients, especially women, are too dumb and ignorant to know what they want and how they feel. They have to be told what to do.

      We cannot get birth control without doctor’s surveillance, we cannot self-refer to ultrasounds and minor diagnostic tests without GP’s approval, we cannot have unobstructed access to abortions, we cannot seek anonymous medical help (even though we have the right to do so, but it exists on paper only), and, of course, we cannot stop being pestered with “importance” of all sorts of harmful screening.

      • linda says:

        Hi Alice. Its not just Australia. Its every country. A few years ago the Labour Gov in the UK decided that every farm animal was to be tagged with an ID number to enable authorities to track it. This was going to be extended to pets and then onto wild snimals such as deer,badgers,rabbits,foxes and some birds. Every animal was to be accounted for. The programme fell apart because of money.
        However,what we are now realising is that this has already been done to humans via the NHS. Sick and ill humans as well as those who appear to be healthy. These people want s record of how we are doing. My weight,height, what i generslly eat,wether i smoke, drink, do drugs has all been collected. When i was at my doctors last he even asked if i was having the meno and ticked a box on screen. The problem for us is that they want to do some very invasive testing. For women they want a record of their vaginas. Rather than giving people choice they behaved like the Nazis and herded us all against our wills. Used propoganda and lies to trick us into beleiving CC was rampant. Shamed and abused us.
        In some countries like China, Brazil and Poland there has been a push to make smear tests compulsory. They haven’t suceeded. Yet.
        Other countries are surely trying to make the test compuslory. I’m afraid from what i read here Australia maybe one of them.
        The UK, Europe and even America are changing their stance. I sense Cancer testing has been exposed for the problems it causes and things are moving forward. From what i read cancer screening is being recognised as a choice. You must do everything you can to fight for Australian women.

      • Alice says:

        Linda, you are absolutely right. It is clear that the primary purpose of any government-imposed cancer screening program is either to save or make money, while the secondary — to find a pretext to keep the population, especially women, under close surveliance. Soon they will be routinely using DNA screening, and for us that will be no different from convicted criminals who have their DNA in the police database.

        The medical system is the major invader of people’s freedom and privacy. And the main danger too. For example, in Australia, doctors and medical institutions have the power to ask for and collect the largest amount of private information, while the privacy law allows total disclosure without people’s permission if this information is used for “the purpose of medical research”. So it is enough for any company to pretend they are doing some medical research — and private lives of millions are in their hands! All sanctioned by the government. What’s worse is that the Australian government not only facilitates the violation of people’s medical privacy, it actually forces people to participate in Heath surveys. It is a jailable offence in Australia to decline participation is ABS Heath surveys, no matter how invasive.

        A “free country” with “the best in the world health care system”. Yeah…

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Alice you are right. Our rights under every law and country are being eroded away. Be it treaty, the UN, or our warped governments social programs. Our retirement savings accounts are now, by law (in US too) subject to being “taken” in percentage of value, to “assist” a banking institution in “recovery” after its own mismanagement. So much for shareholders and executives; they escape while we pay. The liberal media is too enmeshed in promoting LGBT agenda to care.

        Jola on 10/3 discussed Poland’s vaccination programs. The US parallels them. Here too babies begin HEP B vaccinations within 24 hours. There is a connection between HEP B vaccination in the very young and Type 1 or Juvenile Diabetes. Stupid parents go along… I totally agree re Guardisil. A friend’s daughter received it before I could talk to her. She had several reactions and missed months of school. Required months of physical therapy. We are being slowly conditioned to accepting total governmental control. The next steps, living by the smart card. The chips in those cards is intended to fit inside our forearms.

        I have long wondered, how the Bible could predict future events. It’s all coming true. In Revelations there’s a verse mentioning the destruction and desolation of Damascus. Coming soon; along with the chip, aka the Mark Of The Beast.

        Long ago there was a question to how a prostate biopsy in men is performed. The patient is started on antibiotics. He receives IV sedation and analgesia. His prostate is visualized on rectal ultrasound. A devise is inserted rectally. It “shoots” several barb like probes through his rectal lining into the prostate. These are retrieved. Several must be performed to determine diagnosis and treatment.

        Very good advice for men. To prevent prostate issues including cancer. The best thing he or you can do is to “cycle” or “flush” him at least 21x per month. Accumulating seminal fluids can carry toxins, hormones, and plug the prostate causing a dangerous inflammation.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      “The irony is that women are poised to retake women’s wellness from male providers that clearly designed the regimen to benefit themselves (of course that’s why this barbarism is finally being scrutinized too).
      The Catholic Church paid billions to settle its own institutionalised sex abuse problem. How much do you suppose this is worth? And who should be going to jail? And who is going write the first article about this particular “culture of rape”.”

      Another comment by Count Me Amused…

  26. adawells says:

    Also found this one on twitter, with medical practitioners amazed this is still happening at all –

    • linda says:

      Hi Ada. Why do they think useless paps and pelvics can build ‘trust’ between patient and gyno? By doing them women will impart private information they may have not mentioned. This is not a good enough reason to keep doing them. I trusted doctors and nurses for over twenty years before i suddenly woke up and realized paps are not worth the hassle and useless and they had been raping me by continuing to pretend they were necessary. Now i am left angry and sad that they have done this to me.
      There is trust between me and our vet that he will take care of my rabbit but he has never insisted on raping me. Similarly there is trust between me and the post man he will deliver my letters but he didn’t need to rape me either
      Also when my friends and me get together we impart private info about ourselves over .coffee. Women are intelligent and we don’t need to build trust inorder to get treatment for anything. The gyno rapists must be so worried about their jobs. Stuff em !

      • adawells says:

        Hi Linda,
        Just to let you know that I’ve got about 6,000 words on the history of the NHS screening programme, which I’m going to reduce and make more to the point. I’m also going to submit a shorter piece on my own private experience. As you say, I’m working on it as a word document so it will be all proofread and corrected before I send it. Glad you know about the Kindle techie stuff as I know nothing about that. It’s such an exciting project, I can’t wait to see it when it’s done.

      • ADM says:

        What builds trust between a patient and Dr is not intimate exams but the Dr being honest and providing the information for me to make an informed decision about any medical test or treatment. The reason women now expect these exams is because they’ve been lied to about their importance and had them forced on them if they want BC.

      • linda says:

        Imaginary conversation between my husband and his doc

        ‘Hey Doc, now youve got your finger up my a#%e and i feel i can trust you, i have been worried about one or two other other little thing lately.’

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Linda, your piece for the e-book is powerful, I think many women will identify with it, it also shows the way women are treated is carefully engineered to make them feel powerless; like their body belongs to others.
        I’ve heard many women over the years say they now hate their body or feel nothing below the waist, hate being a woman and all that means, all the ugliness of this program has reduced them to a shell.
        The male student in the exam room is another example of the disrespectful way women are treated. There is no doubt in my mind they plant, the student in the exam room to ambush the woman, knowing many will feel unable to refuse…they couldn’t care less about our feelings and bodily autonomy. It’s all about getting what they want, how to best manipulate the woman for their ends.
        It would be an easy matter, ask the woman before the consult, “do you mind a male /student being present for your smear?” I can tell you they’d get a lot of NO’s, they KNOW that, this way they can once again, override our feelings, put us on the spot. This is also why they want to get their claws into us early in life, so they can neutralize the normal feelings we have of modesty, bodily privacy, preservation of dignity, being treated like an individual with legal rights…it’s part of their “get over it” strategy.
        Turning us into a member of the screening herd.
        I felt your pain right through your essay.
        I’m so pleased this ugliness is now behind you and you’ve now started the healing process.

  27. Miso99 says:

    Hi everybody,
    I’ve been reading this blog for a while and I thought I’d write you all my own impressions about this, as I’m also a pap smear renegade, and after reading all this stuff I’m now proud of it! I’m 31 and I live in Quebec. I found this place after browsing some medicine and health forums and blogs, I’m a medecine geek and I like reading news about it, but I’m not in medicine, though I have a scientific education, one of the subjects I had been following closely for a few years was that gardasil vaccine and that “early detection saves lives” cancer hype.

    Sometimes there was this Elizabeth from Australia commenter who kept popping by, I was wondering if it was the same person because she was often writing the same things, turns out I was right hehe! I ended up here after reading some articles about pelvic exams being useless and guidelines change for pap tests. I also found the issue 24 of HPV today that Elizabeth mentioned, I keep it preciously, it was a great read!

    I’m not sure there’s been commenters from my province already, though I know some of you are in Ontario. In Quebec there isn’t a pap test program like Ontario, so you don’t receive letters or phone calls, but there is a mammogram program for women over 50. The pap tests here are made on an opportunistic basis, so they will try to push one on you when you go to your GP (if you have one), and they certainly use the “pap for birth control pill” black mail tactics as well.

    I was on the pill for some years but always managed to avoid the pap test by getting the pill prescription from a dermatologist who was a very nice woman, as I was taking it for my acne. Then I decided to rely only on a prescription cream that was doing a much better job and dropped the pill completely because I didn’t need any birth control, and wasting a whole day waiting in an doctor’s office for just 2 minutes appointment wasn’t worth it. I was also starting to get annoying side effects, basically having a menopause at age 24, insomnia, hot flashes, bad temper, joint pain, zero libido, neck and back pain. All this vanished almost instantly when I went off the pill and my cycle came back pretty quickly and all was well. I think I’m lucky because I’ve read lots of stories about women struggling getting off the pill and having a bunch of nasty side effects and having hormonal imbalance, but that’s for another discussion.

    I’ve recently started using the symptom thermal method that I discovered online, to track my fertility and I’m glad to discover my years of more or less useful pill taking didn’t affect my health and I’ll never go back on any hormonal BC. I never had problem to get my acne cream renewed, I go to a walk-in clinic, they sign me the script and I’m good for 2 years of refill and never get bothered with a pap. And I think that now I might be able to get the prescription renewed by a pharmacist, so I wouldn’t even need to get a doctor’s signature and I could avoid them completely.

    Last time I had a real doctor appointment was more than 10 years ago, with a female GP who was our family’s doctor. Every year my mother booked me an annual check-up with her for no reason that she thought I would get a serious illness if I didn’t went to. I always thought it was completely useless, as if the GP could detect heart disease by listening to it for 3 seconds or looking into my ear to find what exactly, I don’t know, I could have had an alien waiting to burst out of my chest she wouldn’t have had a clue. I’m glad some physicians in the US are saying this kind of check-up is useless. She had no idea how to improve my acne either (and she probably didn’t care), I had to make a scene in her office to get a referral to the dermatologist who would eventually prescribe me the pill and the cream. When I was about 17-18 the GP started pestering me with vaginal exam and pap test, I told her that I would let her do one when I thought it would be pertinent. The face she gave me when I told her that, priceless! She tried to take revenge by asking me if I was sexually active and when I said no she made a sneer and said “oh, you haven’t started that yet”, so I left her office and never came back again. I was proud of myself. I don’t know why I didn’t flip her the bird then, but if it happened today I totally would.

    You guys might have not had the French side of this matter, but it’s just as worse in France than it is in the UK or Germany, from what I’ve read from French blogs and forums about this. Doctors in France, especially gynos, are quick to prescribe the pill (and the pap test that goes with the package) to teenagers and women for various reasons, including pharmaceutical incentives. Though they don’t have an official screening program in France, they have the same opportunistic testing over there as well, with the same consequences of over screening, black mailing pill prescriptions and excessive biopsies and unnecessary treatments.

    Sorry for the long post, I needed to share :)

    A side not to Alex, I saw you mentioned the site Bare naked islam, I’m a regular reader of that one too!

    • Apocalyptic Queen (UK) says:

      I think the obsession with screening shows that while it may have been invented a long time ago to genuinely help women, like many other women-oriented initiatives, it is now all about monitoring women (to establish what they are up to – sexually), “treating” women (to get the profits rolling in) and punishing women (I’ve read loads of accounts online where women diagnosed with a number of “abnormalities” have been harshly judged by NHS staff – presumably because they believe the patients are promiscuous). This has got NOTHING to do with our health. If it had, they’d also be concerned with our hearts, our livers, our brains etc. They are not. They could screen us for mental illness or diabetes or heart disease – three very prevalent illnesses which are far more likely to affects us than cervical cancer but hey, surprise surprise, there’s NO screening programme for those. I’ve heard Canada is obsessed with screening and it surprises me because Canada supposedly has an excellent reputation for its’ famed liberalism. I’ve met a Canadian male who says he was pestered from age 35 to have prostate exams (although he agreed in principle and went along with it), so perhaps this obsession in Canada is due to some misguided liberalism? In the US at least, it appears very sinister as well as many other countries including many in Europe, Aus and NZ. I believe the origins of “screening” hark back to days when many people had strange ideas about women and sex. This programme was all about judging and punishing women for having sex, which now also has profits, bonuses and incentives thrown into the agenda.

    • kleigh us says:

      I’m 31 too and never had a pap smear. Glad I’m not alone.

    • Alex says:

      Miso99: Yeah, that site has a lot of good information. You know what’s interesting? They (people in America, at least the ones that know about it) frequently make the point about virginity tests in those middle eastern countries, as well as the more conventional impositions in that part of the world. Like as an argument for it being a shithole. That they, both conventionally & unconventionally, violate & otherwise molest people (usually women & girls, but more frequently than is mentioned men & boys). And that they act like it’s innocent.

      Isn’t that strange?

      • Miso99 says:

        If these countries would just rename their virginity tests as “well woman visits” or “cancer screening” they wouldn’t have any problems.

        What’s the point to bring a child of 11-12 years old or a young teenager who doesn’t have any symptoms of anything, to a doctor to have her reproductive organs checked? Sure they don’t produce a virginity certificate or whatever it could be called, but you could interpret it that way, if there’s no symptoms or suspicion of anything, then what are they looking for? It’s not to the benefit of the child or teenager to endure that, and it sends a grim impression that now that she’s becoming a woman, her body is basically in a constant pre-disease state and has to be monitored. The mother who does that to her kid is an anxious pervert in my opinion.

      • Alex says:

        Bafflingly enough, when someone from one of “those countries” refuses something done, that’s no problem. They just back off.

        Yet, when someone from a different background (or affiliation, sometimes it isn’t both), they get pushed around & frequently have something imposed on them. Which is frequently deemed perfectly innocent. By both the ones that do it & by the policy implementation workers that come down on everyone about everything. And, frequently, the surrounding public.

        Just to shrug off the subtlety a bit: It’s wrong to do things like the Muslims do, but only to the Muslim women they usually do it to.

      • Alex says:

        They DON’T have any problems, at least that I’m aware of.

        That concept of pre-disease is probably undermining in other ways- like she’s not of good quality, so her decisions would be shit, too.

        Another thing is that it seems some women feel like they’re doing something bad by not engaging in these situations. Phrasing it as “avoiding” or “neglecting.”

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Hi Miso99
      I just noticed your post, welcome to the forum.
      Like you I managed to avoid most of the pressure by staying as far away from doctors as possible, I also, have a skin issue (it’s actually an auto-immune condition) vitiligo, but I’m also fair so it’s not that noticeable. Fortunately, a dermatologist has never mentioned pap testing to me, I know in the States most medical professionals focus on the test, trying to capture as many women as possible.
      You’re wise to forget annual wellness checks, they’re FAR more likely to harm you and there is no evidence of benefit. In Canada, I’m sure this exam would include routine breast and pelvic exam and a pap test – all expose you to risk and pap testing should be confined to the roughly 5% of women aged 30 to 60 who test HPV+ (an offer, not an order)
      Hopefully, we’ll change the system as more and more women refuse the excess and question a warped and harmful system.

      Acne – I didn’t have a problem in my teens but ended up with some acne in my 30s probably thanks to a very stressful job. I used Roaccutane, the side effects were unpleasant, but it worked. The dermatologist wanted to put me on the Pill while I was taking this drug, I declined, I used the Billings Method. (the only method I ever used)
      The doctor made a point of saying that if I got pregnant I’d probably face a termination. (the drug can cause birth defects)
      I’ve always felt the medical profession feels more comfortable with women on the Pill, with an IUD or implant, it keeps us tied to them…they also assume we’re all hopeless so anyone relying on condoms or the Billings Method is bound to get pregnant.

      The Pill works well for many women, it produces unpleasant side effects for other women…some can’t tolerate it at all. I didn’t have the option of the Pill for birth control, it meant exposing myself to pap tests, pelvic and breast exams every 6 months or year, that was OUT of the question.
      I know some women who developed cervical erosion while they were taking the Pill, the bleeding led to some invasive and nasty procedures – no cancer or anything else, just the erosion. I’ve always felt medical meddling is the main reason so many women have gyn “issues” and why so many face invasive exams, tests and procedures.
      My opinion: If you stay away from the medical profession when you’re well, (or closely monitor what is being offered/done) you’re MUCH more likely to have a happy and healthy life.

      I understand lots of well people choose to see a doctor every year or so, especially from mid-life, but even then, we should be vigilant. A GP once tacked the CA125 blood test onto my pathology form, my iron levels were being checked (I’d recently stopped eating red meat) – I was horrified when I noticed it on the way home, I declined to receive the results.
      I made clear to the GP that I didn’t ask for the test and would never agree to it..it’s highly unreliable and can lead to unnecessary surgery. These so-called simple tests that can be casually added, even without our permission, can lead to some dangerous places, faced with a bad/abnormal result many people will feel compelled to go to the next stage…more testing, biopsies or even investigative surgery.

  28. Judy says:

    It’s unbelievable the straws these doctors are grasping at to keep justifying this invasive, violating exam of such low clinical value. When they say they wish to build trust, it’s not so much so women will feel comfortable speaking with them about sensitive subjects. Rather, they try to build a trusting relationship so women will comply with their recommendations, including ever more invasive procedures and surgeries. Gynecologists are basically surgeons and that’s what they want to do as much as possible – perform surgery. I wish more women would wake up to the truth about these con artists in white coats.

  29. kat rehman says:

    I don’t understand the obsession with well woman exams. Personally, I’m not overweight, bp is fine, no cholesterol, no diabetes, coping with

    • kleigh us says:

      Me ether

    • Diane Spero says:

      me either. i spent many yrs trying to get help with my issue ( vaginimus) i think.
      i have ben denied help because i am physically unable to have an exam! i finally gave up!
      after being so distoryed that i have never really bern able to love anyone, enjoy intimacy!
      being made fun of etc.

      i have been traumaized and never found an answer to my issue.

      i am not sure about a colonscopy. i have Dr. phobia bad! Hated being examined!

      Drs office nurses are no help!

  30. kat rehman says:

    Menopause, so I am a well woman! In 6 years with my new practice I’ve never felt the need for advice on sexual health or performance and I’ve never needed sti testing

  31. kat rehman says:

    Just checked the NHS blog about how do we help people decide if screening is right for them and my 3rd comments up! I took a real pop at the programme too!

  32. kkk@yahoo.com says:

    “He warned that many women were still unaware that fertility declined as they aged and called for a national system of fertility checks to act as a “wake-up call”.
    The checks would begin at age 25, at the same time as cervical smear tests.”

    Every worst assumption put together about women, packaged into policy, and then sold back to their faces as empowerment. Of course there is no technology to tell a 25yrs old(or anyone) what percent chance they have falling pregnant the next five years or next year, but the same can be said about smear tests, as smear testing was founded on false scientific premises, and became a population based initiative without clinical trials- these policies are just means to ideological aims.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      News to me. That women don’t know their fertility declines as they get older. First thing I really did know.

      This BS is meant to herd us closer to the doctor. We’ve educated our way past the fear that made us circle the stirrups yearly. Now the medical establishment needs another way to end run the young we’ve passed our experiences onto. Replace the old fear with a new fear. If you don’t come here for “preconception care,” you can forget about having a baby. This means our message is being heard; and doctors consider us a threat.

      No problem. Time for us to to offer a refresher course to the younger women. Remind them about how the colpo brush spreads HPV and most importantly causes miscarriages. Reinforce to them that unnecessary treatments like cold knife, LEEP, etc, are de facto amputations that cause an inability to carry their infant to term.

      Most women we talk to are interested and then very grateful after hearing us out. There is always an unexpected one who can’t handle her own life and “prefers” to leave all her decisions to her doctor.

    • adawells says:

      Desperate to find a valid use for the speculum test aren’t they? Got to keep it going and make women feel their lives depend upon it. And I suppose information regarding the fertitlity status of women might be made available to employers, who can then decide to promote those less likely to have children than others?

      • Miso99 says:

        Not only for employers (though depending where you live there might be anti-discrimination laws about “might be more prone to get pregnant” so the employer couldn’t legally get rid of you base on that), but this could be one can of worms from an insurance point of view.

        Say you need life insurance, you need to disclose tests that shows on your medical record in the questions you fill in for the request, so just the fact of taking a fertility test might trigger them into considering you have other health issues as well and they might decline your request or charge you extra premium. It could be similar to the HIV tests back in the 80s and 90s, if you declared you had been tested for HIV your application for life insurance was more certainly be declined, but today with wide spread screening available for anyone who might ask for it (at least in the public health system in Canada) they no longer decline based on the presence of HIV testing, but they will ask you “Have you got a positive result to an HIV test”. Most insurers, at least In Canada, will perform their own HIV blood test whether you’re at risk or not, it’s now more a matter of “prove you don’t have it” than checking who’s really infected.

        I don’t know how it works in the USA for health insurance from private carriers, about how declining pap tests/mammogram/other cancer screening might affect eligibility for coverage, so if you know please leave a comment, I’d like to know it works.

        These fertility check-ups are a joke, if they’re going to monitor fertility they need to 1) identify ovulation moment – how are they going to do that, provide an ultrasound machine to carry with you 24/7 for 2 weeks a month then 2) daily blood samples to check hormone levels? How are they going to pay for that, how much time will be wasted on healthy women while there are really sick people out there who would benefit much more from that time with a doctor?

    • Anonymous says:

      I notice hear in the Us guns are pushing freezing eggs and scaring young woman about there fertility.

      • Alice says:

        @Cat&Mouse You can bet US is watching Australia & elsewhere to see how self-testing works. One thing I am convinced will happen. Once self-screened and “registered” into the government web, women will find themselves being “seduced” into the stirrups or into regular in-office screening.

        This is precisely what’s going to happen. According the new Australian guidelines, the HPV self-testing option will only be available via doctors, and only to those women that the system defines as “underscreened” or “never screened”.

        Once a woman took the self-test, she is no longer underscreened, she becomes screened and therefore can no longer get another self-test kit. The woman’s personal details and test results will be entered into the government’s cervical surveillance register, and from then on the woman will be contacted, pestered, pressured, “reminded” about the vital importance of screening, told she is “due”, and given only one option to test — stirrups and speculum in the doctor’s office. The government wants to keep the access to vaginas. In Australia, women’s reproductive organs are controlled by the state and the medical system, not by women. That’s why abortion is still a crime under the Criminal Code in Australia.

        With the new guidelines coming into effect in a year, the best approach for Australian women will be to avoid screening until they have concerns or want to check their HPV status. If they never screened before, they will be able to get the self-test kit. When filling the form for the sample analysis, make it clear that you do not want your details to be entered into cervical screening registers. If the lab still puts you into the register despite your directions, make a complaint and demand your details to be deleted ASAP, before they are shared with any other third pastries. Also demand the results of the test to be sent directly to you, not to the the doctor, so you don’t end up in the doctor’s office being pressured into “further investigations”, colposcopies or biopsies just because you have HPV. If you have your results before seeing the doctor, you can do your research and make your decisions independently.

        Most HPV infections clear on their own. But because Australia is going to wind down the frequent pap-smearing, which has been a very lucrative enterprise for the medical profession, they need to keep the jobs and income of the colposcopy clinics and day procedures, so they will refer women for cervical mutilation without delay, as soon as a woman test positive for HPV.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Great comments Alice; amazing information Miso99! Thank you both!
        I’ll be keeping you all informed about how things go between us (hubby & myself) and my gyne. He gave me two months Covaryx 1.25/2.5mg (estrogen/testosterone) and then a message for an appt and exam. We’ll have to see the definition of exam here. This drug, at this dose, helps me most stay moist, healthy, and sexually active both in thoughts and action. Since I used Trovagene a year ago I don’t see what any issue should exist. Considering I still need my knee replaced, I can prove medical necessity for not having any exam.
        I’m not so strictly opposed to an office visit. It’s been a few years, so I can understand his need to make some dough off me. However, it’s the definition of that visit. No pap. That’s where we’ll be drawing the line. What bothers me, and we’ll use it against him depending on what he says to us, is his statement that he can’t feel ovaries or anything except the cervix and about 1-1/2″ of uterus. Yeah, keep that one in mind when they brag they can feel everything you have.
        Please pray for us.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        I was shocked to learn that the LoonCup actually existed. I can sadly imagine a girl who totally depends on her doctors to subscribe. I imagine the Cup would come with faces. Happy for when the pap was done; sad for when past due.
        Nowhere in the pro-pap madness does one hear the opinion that women stay away from healthcare so they can avoid the medical baed assaulting.
        You can bet US is watching Australia & elsewhere to see how self-testing works. One thing I am convinced will happen. Once self-screened and “registered” into the government web, women will find themselves being “seduced” into the stirrups or into regular in-office screening. Remember, US gynes don’t want to let go of papping because it brings in money. An invasive exam earns more than a simple office visit. Especially under ObummerCare.
        I am going to write to Ben Carson. Perhaps he’ll answer me regarding what his policy would be concerning the in office rapes commonly known as pelvic exams.
        Previously I’ve written about Jeff Abrams MD. The criminal case closed. Nobody wanted to testify against him–they say. Suddenly, due to his “health” issues, he’s only going to receive 5 years probation, house arrest, and have to register as a sex offender. Suddenly, he has kidney cancer… Looked pretty good on tv despite such a bleak outlook.
        I wonder if he and former San Diego mayor Bob Filner had the same defense attorney. I’m sickened by this. Anybody else, regardless, would receive a severe sentence.
        We were not told how he took those pictures so we could learn how to protect ourselves against others. How much KY was used to slicken and slip this past old lady justice… Now, besides being blind, old lady justice must be stupid too.

  33. adawells says:


    This is a very detailed article written for doctors so that they can advise women whether or not to take up the mammogram offer, but it is a great read if you can work your way through it.

    It’s from Mitzi Blennerhassett’s terrific website “Even Stars Explode”

  34. Alex says:

    Hey, everyone. I wanted to share some insights on a few things that apply to medical situations & might be useful for deflecting unconventional attacks.

    (1) When someone refuses something, there seems to usually be the question “Why?” Like an attempt to “kick the chair out from under someone.” They want to hear a reason to convince someone that it’s no good & is like a dead battery as far as influence goes. A reply for this can be “Because I’m sure that that’s my decision.”

    Very likely they would continue asking questions (or rather, issuing challenges/contraventions), but someone could make the point that they were picking a course of action- not asking for applause. If they keep badgering them, the person could say that it is their “inclination of comportment.” If they CONTINUE, and there’s a high probability that they would, the observation can be made that they keep badgering someone for a reason as if their assessment of it imbues it with actuation. Whatever you say, they’ll likely argue with because they’re trying to make a sale.

    (2) There are people in the world that are “anti non-self.” I figure this could be a more accurate way of describing what’s frequently called a “narcissist.” The thing with them is that anyone else, anything that they do, and even extent circumstances (because it’s not a product of their imagination) are things they have an issue with.

    (3) Ultimately, what happens is what occurs & it’s not always wrong to keep something from occurring. No offense meant, but it seems women have more of an issue with this. I guess it’s like a “vitiation of life” in the dynamic sense of the word. Still not always wrong- supposing something (or someone) was looking to eat your kid. That’s an example right there. Stopping someone from maiming, murdering, or molesting you is another one. Stopping any of that from being done to your children is another one. All of which apply in situations that are only rarely thought of as hostile & to people that are rarely thought of as enemies.

  35. Alice says:

    Bad news: Australian politicians are pushing for a law amendment to allow them to drag all Australians into the government’s health surveillance system (also known as PCEHR, MyHR, eHealth, etc — they keep renaming it after every major failure).

    At the moment, Australian law does not allow the forced creation of online health records. eHealth system is optional, and only 10% of Australians signed up for it ever since it was rolled out. The rest want their freedom and privacy intact. The government didn’t take the message. More so, it decided to force everyone in. Once the new law is passed, they will start a trial in far North Queensland and Blue Mountain regions where over 1 million people will be used as guinea pigs to “iron out” bugs, glitches and security issues in the insecure, privacy-invading, badly made system. The government promises to give the people a chance to opt out of this $hit, but nobody said so far as how it is going to be done. The trail regions were carefully selected to ensure the minimal opt out. In far North Queensland, most people don’t even have computers, let alone know how to opt out of the monsters like MyGov or eHealth systems.

    Once the government authorities get the “right” results in the trial, the whole Australian population will be dragged into eHealth. After that, it won’t be surprising if the law is changed again, to restrict opt out and to allow the government to sell the health information or give access to it to third parties, including private enterprises and overseas corporations. This already happened with credit reporting data and business registers: people’s personal information is sold to whoever wants to pay for it, and there is no way for individuals to stop it. Insurance companies will pay a fortune to get access to people’s health data. Will Australian government be able to resist such an offer? I doubt it!

    The bottom line: opt out of Australian eHealth while you have a chance!

    • Alice says:

      Needless to say that this system will be used for pestering people about screening.

      Another approach the govt can adopt to force those who opted out back in is to start telling the patients that they can only get copies of pathology results, diagnosing test reports, health record copies and any other health information through eHealth only. Australian medical system already made it difficult for the patients to get this information, and soon it may be locked behind eHealth. Want to be a part of your health care decisions – say goodbye to privacy!

    • Alice (Australia) says:

      The Australian Privacy Foundation‘s Bernard Robertson-Dunn, who has developed IT systems for several government departments, said it was “patently absurd” to believe that Australian laws could protect against criminals and cyber-terrorists operating overseas.

      He’s written to senators complaining that the committee has ignored the expert advice provided to it in submissions, most of which raised concerns about the new model. “This is in spite of being told that it is insecure and a major threat to the privacy of most Australians, has little value to health professionals and has all the appearance of primarily being an aid to law enforcement and revenue collection agencies,” the letter says.

      Dr Robertson-Dunn told AAP the private medical details of all Australians could potentially be stolen in an Ashley Madison-style hacking scandal, in which a group of hackers released private information of the website’s users. He says even lawful access of the system could pose a “huge invasion of privacy”, allowing anyone employed at a medical institution to access a person’s entire medical record.

      • Alice says:

        Moo, you are absolutely righ: most of what’s done within health care and other branches of government is about power, control, and money.

        We had the same situation with the election procedure in Australia: out of a sudden at the last election we had to bring photo ID or a proof of address. It was all fine without for over a century before.

        eHealth system is going to be another encroachment on people’s privacy and independence. It will become a perfect tool for the government to spy on people, to keep track of their private lives, to exert pressure regarding screening, and to make money of giving insurance companies access to people’s health info.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        This is the most intense statement I’ve read regarding privacy violations. Whether it’s government or private sector, both are violated on a regular basis. Can you imagine the blackmail money making schemes?
        All about government control. All about our most sacred data. All about how it’s to be used against us w/o us knowing until it’s too late. This is about growth of knowledge, and it’s an End Times sign. Less personal control. More computers. Less cash, less privacy, less independent decision making. More big brother. Then, with the inevitable data breeches, we’re told we must have our own ID Chip. Starts with tracking oldsters. Best if we have it coded on our foreheads or R arms. Hitler tattooed Jews’ arms; it’s possible.
        Then our computerized health, banking, educational, employment, weapon ownership “data” can finally be made hack proof. Then we’re under total control. Follow orders or “you,” your number is placed on a detentional hold.
        Not all will see the ultimate end point that I describe. But what I see coming here is the loss of control we have on your own lives and those of our families. Already here in CA, USA, we have mandatory vaccinations. Mandatory “controls” brought compliments of Liberal Democrats social policies. Our freedoms taken away, supposedly to improve the herd. In US we call these “feel-good” laws. Makes somebody “feel good” about doing something but in fact causes no societal good but instead a tremendous amount of harm is spread around.
        Presently every gun tragedy in US brings Hillary, Obama, every feel-good Liberal wants “reasonable” gun control. Every scheme imaginable to harm the law abiding. Nothing that effects the criminals at all. Those of us following the law are set up as future victims while criminals are provided opportunities at future self-employment minus having to pay taxes.
        That’s exactly what these eHealth policies do.
        In an HMO such as Kaiser, fully computerized, any doctor can write sh!t in your file and the stink follows you the rest of your life. Doesn’t matter if it’s made up in retaliation or to cover their own mistakes. Or to give them a reason to deny care and save money.
        These suck everything in data houses leave no window to right a wrong or stop a vendetta. The doctors, and the government that pays them, gain more power and grow stronger at our expense. No doctor will ask the government to cancel the program and no politician will cancel out any demented procedure like a pelvic exam. Each stands to lose money.
        Take note. Liberal politicians in US wonder why Americans “cling” to their guns. The Revolutionary War began when the Brits made moves to confiscate the Colonists’ balls, powder, and muskets. Our freedoms, once taken, are gone forever. Our freedoms to control our own bodies are under final assault. Dig in and fight!

      • Moo says:

        I experienced this type of government control identity problems working at a recent federal election (Canada). The voters’ list had people’s ages on it for some reason. All I really needed was a name, address and if people had already voted. However the rules had changed from previous elections and everyone had to have id with their photo and address on it. Anyone without a driver’s licence had to produce something official with their address on it. A few older ladies came in with their passports, citizenship documents but we had to tell them to go home and get something with their address on it: a utility bill, phone bill or anything off a whole list. People were even allowed to show a bill on their cellphone. But some of these older ladies did not pay the bills in their name and it was absolutely outrageous having lived at the same address for decades they were having their right to vote challenged.

        So just saying you are who you are is not good enough and just telling a doctor your medical history or what you want in that office visit is not good enough either. I do not buy that all these e-medical records are needed for preventing patient fraud when I find the doctors are doing the most of it.

        These “screenings” for patients at risk are annoying as well as dangerous. I had a friend who stupidly answered questions about if she had a crib when her baby was born. She could not afford one (she had a basinet/cradle) and was hoping to get help with that. She was scolded and told that authorities could be contacted because she might have a sleeping arrangement that was unsafe for baby. She was really angry when she found out that mothers with newborns were matched up with family doctors (if they had none) and the doctor was paid a $350 bonus almost exactly what a new crib would cost. When is this bonus waste (bonuses for quotas on vaccinations; cervical,breast and colon screening, taking “difficult” case new patients) going to stop and the money used for patient care?

        I have also heard from “snowbirds” (older folk who live in Canada but spend their winters in warmer climates). They are careful about how long they stay away because it they are out of the country for more than 6 months (total) per year, even one day, their government health insurance can be cancelled. This is courtesy of the same technology that is supposed to keep out criminals and terrorists. It is about controlling people but it is about money. Even older folk with some health problem that is under-control are unable to vacation because the insurance costs more than the trip.

      • Alice says:

        Elizabeth, Australian e-passport system is a blatant disregard of people’s privacy, and a danger to personal safety should the collected data be stolen or misused.
        I absolutely refuse to use e-passport or e-gates. The airport workers try to herd me into these machines every time I go in or out of the country. I refuse. I much rather say “hi” to a real person and have that person to look at me and compare my passport photo, instead of having my photograph taken by a machine, my face analysed, my documents scanned and all that data stored in some system forever. I am a human being and want to interact with human beings, not machines. The queue to a real human officer may take a few minutes longer, by my freedom and safety are worth it!

        At least, Australia is not forcing people to have their fingerprints scanned, not like USA, Japan or Korea. Not yet. But we are getting there, for our “safety and security” of course. I just wish more people realise that a war on terrorism and a battle for “national security” cannot be won, it is just a pretext to keep taking people’s liberties away and violating their privacy. If we don’t resist now, soon it will be too late. MyGov/ Australian ID/ implanted microchips / whatever will take care of tracking our movements, interactions and personal data. While eHealth system will take care of the surveillance of our bodies and internal organs.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Thanks, Alice, I’ll try again, last time I looked at getting out of e-health the system took me around in circles until I gave up, not this time.
        Also, coming back into the country yesterday I went through the e-passport channel and a screen appears, you have to opt-in to an information sharing scheme (your personal details, travel movements etc.) OR you might not be allowed to use the e-passport system in the future. Typical…
        Our govt seems obsessed with gathering information on its citizens and controlling us, especially women’s “healthcare”, the lack of respect for our privacy and autonomy is shocking. Where will it end? A police state?

  36. Alex says:

    Moo: I hate to say it, but most any kind of “Anglo” or “Germanic” nation is acting like an asshole now. I notice there’s a lot of general antagonism & the backstory is that is simply their will to do so.

    As for your friend, she should just lie. Any time where they are asking a question, it should probably be seen as them looking for a “guilty condition.” They want something to nail someone on or something that they can lie about in some way to get an attack conveyed- since it’s easier to present a complete lie based on real situations than it is to entirely fabricate a story & stick to it convincingly.

  37. Guest Jen says:

    I am very scared right now and would really appreciate some reassuring advice. My husband, though a wonderful man, is not very sympathetic and did not offer anything to make me feel better.

    I have always been terrified of gynecological exams…it first started when I was about 11 and I was taken to one. At the time, I wasn’t even sure what was going to happen but I knew I was fine with someone touching my private area because I hadn’t yet learned what a scary thing it was. The doctor was cold, cruel, rushed for time, and impatient. It was just an external exam (thankfully) but it screwed me up for life. I was fine in the beginning…but then…something came over me and I got REALLY uncomfortable with her touching me. I didn’t like the way it was making me feel, both physically and emotionally. So I tried scooching up the table…she got a very mad look on her face, grabbed my legs, and yanked me back towards her…while saying angrily, “stop moving around so much and leave your legs open.” I was frozen in fear the rest of the time, but later that night, I cried. I NEVER wanted that to happen again.

    Fast forward to about 25….I’m happily married, and on implanon. But sex starts to becoming painful because the implanon caused me to have dryness. I was terrified to go, but I was hoping the doctor would just give me some medicine to help the dryness, no exam needed. HAH. How naive I was. They tried to bully me into an exam…I started crying and shaking…you would think they would be kind and sensitive, but they weren’t. They told me I could have an infection and could die. They said all kinds of horrible things could be wrong with me and if I don’t get them treated, that I was irresponsible and was putting my health in danger. Now, I try and take very good care of myself…no smoking and maybe one or two drinks a year (I’m just not a drinker)…I exercise and eat healthy. So being told I wasn’t taking my health seriously hurt…because I was putting my mental health first and I knew what that exam would do. I talked to my husband…told him I knew my symptoms were because of the implanon, not any birth control, and I didn’t want an exam. He supported me. A few months later I decide to have it removed…and seriously, within 3 days, everything “down there” was back to normal. Sex was fun and painless again! I was very lucky.

    Fast forward to yesterday. I hadn’t been feeling “right” for a week or two, but couldn’t place why I was feeling that way. No abnormal aches or pains…just a feeling of something wasn’t right. With one exception…sometimes it burned “down there”. Not when I was urinating or anything, just sometimes when I was sitting on the couch or standing for long periods of time. If I moved positions or drank some water, it went away, so I thought it was nothing. I am fearful of doctors in general, mainly because of pap smear coercion, but it makes me not want to go see them for anything else. So I told myself I was fine, I wasn’t going unless I had more “physical” proof something wasn’t right. Well I got my answer Wednesday. I had blood in my urine. I still put off calling my doctor until Friday. I was told to go to triage at my health care clinic (a kind of urgent care system). They told me my leukocytes were high (which means I am fighting off an infection), and there was indeed blood still in my urine, but it wasn’t a UTI. They didn’t know what it was. But the doctor wanted me to schedule a follow up to have a pelvic exam. Which leads me to crying out for help…I am SO scared! I don’t want anyone touching me again…and it was so easy to brush it off when I knew nothing was wrong before, but this time, something IS wrong, and I’m still too terrified to go to a doctor. They told me to schedule my follow up at the desk as I left and I only pretended to…I asked the receptionist some questions about my prescription to make them think I was scheduling an appointment (the nurse was still out in the lobby and could see me), and then left. Please…is there ANY other way they could see where my infection is? Like a blood test? I am worried about traumatizing myself again if I have to go through another exam…and this one will be MUCH more invasive than the external that traumatized me when I was so young…

    • Emily says:

      Jen I’m so sorry to hear about your troubles lovey…my best guesses of possible problems would be a prolapse (implants can cause them sometimes) or an immune response.

      I hope I don’t seem intrusive by asking this but have you had any trouble going #2? is sex currently painful for you? If your man uses his fingers does he notice anything different than before? Any bumps/ bulges/swelling you didn’t have before? If yes maybe look into prolapse more…if no then my other guess (and probably more likely of the 2) would be irritation from having the implant removed. many MANY women have it move around and scrape or sometimes attach to the uterus. Even if the scraping (possibly done during removal) or attachment is minor it will trigger an immune response from your body which would explain the white cells and blood but no infection.

      PLEASE BE AWARE I am NOT a trained medical professional but I do know a few things about herblore and I can recommend some things that may help you feel better regardless of whether or not you get a definitive diagnosis.

      try taking turmeric as it is a known anti inflammatory and may ease the irritation/ inflammation. And learn to make yourself some tea :) And anyone else is welcome to use this. Get a large jar like a mason jar or a small pitcher and fill it about 2/3 full of boiling water. Add a teaspoon of each of these herbs: Goldenseal, yarrow, nettle, uva ursi (bearberry), blue violet- these herbs are astringents known to help flush various illnesses, nourish with powerful antioxidant compounds and tone tissues with mucous membranes. a tablespoon of Echinacea and heaping tbl raspberry leaf- rasp. is well known supporting female systems and Ech. is a well known healer and immune support. .

      Cap the jar and let the tea steep for 10- 15 mins. strain out the herbs and pour back into the jar. Keep it in the fridge and don’t use the microwave to heat it as they can destroy some of the beneficial compounds. dilute 1:1 with water and use filtered water if you can. Add some honey if you like as it’s not particularly pleasant tasting. Drink this 1-2x a day for no more than 3 wks at a time and then take a break for 1wk. these herbs are easily found online (i buy them from ebay)or in natural health food type shops and are relatively cheap. You may feel a rush of heat and sweat a little for up to an hour or so after drinking this tea as the yarrow/goldenseal/ uva ursi can stimulate your immune system (almost like a fever). You may also pee more as these herbs are meant to cleanse and can have a slightly diuretic effect. Don’t worry just drink plenty of water to stay hydrated.

      My final piece of wisdom for you darling is to not strictly/blindly follow my advice. Do your own research, find out what works best for you. If this doesn’t help and you’re not feeling better in a few weeks (probably by the new year i’d say) then it might be a good time to decide about going back to the dr. Just understand that if you do, you’ll probably feel better about it than you did before because you will know that you need the help, that it’s not just for their fancy, and because it is your choice, not someone saying you have to.

      And also plz accept my apologies for the info overload haha and know that I meant it all with the utmost respect :) Good luck!

      • Guest Jen says:

        First off, I wanted to say thank you all so very much for all your kind advice and comments. I feel so much better! Especially after having a therapy session yesterday with my awesome, sympathetic therapist. I am actually lucky to have a very kind and caring gynecologist…she has not examined me and never pressures me into anything. What I was told on Friday came from a different clinic. They were not forceful and seemed very kind, I just panic at the idea of pelvic exams.

        My implanon (a birth control implant that goes in your arm) was removed in May 2014…so it’s been about a year and a half. That’s nearly as long as I suffered with the damn thing, I hated it, but I feared getting pregnant so I didn’t have it removed for a long time.

        For Emily…I do not mind your questions at all, I sincerely appreciate your advice. :) To be honest, most of the time I have trouble going #2…but I noticed since I began antibiotics on Friday, it has gotten easier. I’m not sure why. Unfortunately I cannot ask my husband if I feel any different because he is deployed and has been gone for five months…but, I can answer that masturbation has not been painful.

        We have some health food shops in our area, and I will definitely go see if they carry some of these herbs! Thank you so much! I do quite enjoy hot tea (I drink oolong tea every morning) so I look forward to trying more!

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        I’m glad you’re able to talk freely about masturbating. Equally happy for you that you’re able to w/o pain. When my pain meds suppressed my hormones, I even lost the desire to enjoy that. My smell that my husband craves–gone. He was able to tell which part of my cycle I was on just from smelling my pants or panties each day.
        We probably are a bit different as a couple. I don’t have anybody to compare. However, I’m happy that he’s so into me, that he cares so much.
        The most heartbreaking was when my labia and clitoris shrunk up and disappeared. Yeah, both gone. Then it hurt to even try and have sex. Stupid gyn says, “Oh, it’s ll normal…” Guest Jen, he Rx’s Estrace Cream for me. I refused Premarin. Didn’t want the side-effects from horse urine.
        I had to see a Dermatologist to get topical testosterone to restore my clitoris. Gyn refused it. Imagine that, ok?
        Here’s the kicker. My hormones were ZERO across the board. Gyn says, “Normal.”
        How am I to think if sex, get horny, arouse & lubricate, be able to accept my husband w/o pain, and climax? Husband told the doctor nothing was normal. He is medically educated and quick to speak. Better than I am. He threw all this back to the doctor and asked him to validate how “zero” can add up to “normal.” Long story short. He added how disappointing sex was for him.
        Have you experienced any of this? Wish I could find somebody who has.
        I also told this to my female Internist. Her reaction was that for her and her husband, sex was not a priority anymore. So, that’s how it should be for us too? My husband feels what when we lose the ability to enjoy each other, then we’re pretty much waiting to die. He doesn’t buy into the Golden Years theory. Where are the rest of you on this?

      • Alex says:

        Guest Jen: It’s also possible to find decent herbs online sometimes. I know Rosemary Gladstar has several good herb books (one of them is “Herbal Healing for Women” & there’s a general-use one called “Herbal Recipes for Vibrant Health”). Sorry, I forgot to mention it yesterday.

        In truth, simply because doctors (at least in this part of the world) like to attach riders to things when it comes to treatment & because something doesn’t have to be useless to be an issue (if it works at all, an increasingly bigger “IF”), it’s a good idea to be able to handle things yourself.

        Also, at some point, everybody dies. Even if they didn’t, quality of life would still be an important thing- losing “custody” of yourself is a problem on that level on its own. Them adding on their own accord or your choices being undermined by other people’s “grading standards,” for instance.

    • Alex says:

      First off- it’s your body, your rules. For advice, maybe some observations would help:

      Right off the bat, properties don’t change by designation- just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder. This is an interface with a sexual area (specifically, a penetrative one) as a product of someone else’s decision-making, which is an attack. “Iatrogenic attack” isn’t a well-known term, but an attack using medical methodologies is completely possible. An assaultive action is not limited to cliche settings or methods (after all, someone doesn’t need to be in a stairwell or be attacked by someone wearing a ski mask).

      Their tactics range across a broad spectrum, but seem to largely revolve around a few things:
      (1) Coercion (“you don’t get this without that”- seems to be illegal with birth control, as well as in other cases). There’s no physical force involved, but that’s why “coercion” & “wrestling” are different words.
      (2) Deception (since deception vitiates consent, it’s not someone making their own decisions if someone’s lying to them & they do so frequently omit details like risks, inaccuracies, and alternatives).
      (3) Physical Force. Seems to more common in a delivery room, but there are cases where they don’t stop when they’re directed to & even take liberties with unconscious people.
      (4) Gaslighting. Discrediting someone to themselves. Usually trying to get someone to doubt that their assessments are accurate.
      (5) Presentation. They talk too quick for someone to think, go from one thing to another so there’s no time for refusal, use statements instead of questions (making it hard for someone to figure out what to say, since statements usually follow questions- there’s no “attachment point” for their words- also makes things more confrontational, because someone has to directly cut out whatever it is they’re looking to do).

      Also presenting things as a “fixed situation” (as if there exists no capacity for reality to “unfurl” any other way- bullshit, since an action has to be ENGAGED in order to occur). Frequently, they say what they “will” be doing or what someone’s “going to be having.” You have some experience with this, I think.

      Simple comportment would be another- where they just tell someone to do this or that. Readying equipment, aligning themselves to do whatever action they’re intent on, sometimes actually starting to pull off someone’s clothes or push them down. This is actually something of a subtle tactic, simply because it’s so direct someone wouldn’t even think of it.

      Playing stupid or acting like someone else is. Exactly what it sounds like- they act like they don’t grasp “sexual dissonance” (something being “against the grain” on that level) or that components of a methodology don’t cease to exist in their own right. Pretending that someone is immature, stupid, or crazy for having bodily autonomy, self-protectiveness (even against unconventional attacks), or for thinking compositionally (that a situation is what it consists of).

      [This is kind of related to gaslighting, but since it’s how they present things, I figured I’d put it under “Presentation.”]

      Flat-out ignore any of their prompting, however hard that might be (no offense, but women seem to have a harder time with confrontation & are more easily guilt-tripped or made to feel defective).

      Walking out right whenever you start feeling pushed or they start getting confrontational- this is without “running it by them” (like bringing up “I’m going to leave”- there’s no need to put it forth for consideration, because it doesn’t matter what their stance on it is). Sometimes it’s a bit of a habit to “excuse yourself,” so it’s worth mentioning- as they’ll probably ask “Why?” if you tell them that you’re leaving (trying to “kick the chair out from under your actions,” since they’ll likely judge the reasons for your decision to be sub-par in some way- to undermine your initiative by gaslighting you). They try to supplant people like a friggin’ cult leader (“I am the wellspring from which you flow”- Conan the Barbarian, 1982).

      Reality doesn’t take a coffee break for doctors, so to people saying “It’s not like that, it’s a doctor” a good reply would be “It’s not like what, reality?”

      Outright saying “There’s no cessation of existential dynamics for medical personnel” would probably scare the hell out of them if they started trying to pull a “Jedi Mind Trick” & say something “It’s okay, I’m a doctor.” Same deal with saying that it’s “iatrogenic assualt” if they were to impose this situation or that “altruism doesn’t produce ownership” (when they say “they only want to help” or that they “just want what’s best for you”). Also that “groundless lawsuits are an occupational hazard for medical personnel / a risk for everyone, not just medical personnel” (like if they start talking about how they’d “be at risk for a lawsuit if they didn’t ( ____ ),” as if they’re not liable for what they do).

    • linda says:

      Hi Jen. Your experience sounds awful and I am so glad you found your way here. You have the right to refuse any exam you don’t want. So what if docs and nurses make you feel bad – stuff them. They don”t count one bit. Are they sat with you now saying these things? I bet not. They are nothing to you now. Because now you have found your way here you are a new woman now. Strong. Independent. Sure of herself. Read all the posts here and grow in knowledge and confidence.
      When we are ill the first thing we do is rush off to the docs. This is often the worst thing a woman can do. Search the internet for answers and treat yourself with natural herbs. It sounds as if you have a water infection so drink a lot of water until you flush it through.
      I had implanon and it was rubbish of course they won’t tell you this when they are putting it in. But it causes probs for lots of women.
      It will take a few weeks to leave your system so be kind to yourself. Wait and see if you get better. Take time out to heal your body and mind.
      I’m so glad you found us. You ard so welcome here and we will do all we can to help you. And heal you.

    • Hi Jen,
      From what I understand, your discomfort with exams is hardly rare! If you ever truly need an exam, I hope you can find a clinic with staff that are caring and sensitive. They DO exist – but unfortunately, you’ve had bad luck with your care providers.

      As for your current problem (note I am not a medical professional), I too think that given the circumstances you should relax and see if it goes away on its own. This is a perfectly valid course of action. Despite what the clinic said, it sounds like an infection (they can’t detect all infections at the lab). Your body knows how to clear it, just as it knows how to clear a cold! And just like with a cold, discomfort and mild fever/aches is to be expected but is temporary.

      Drink A LOT of fluids, and try including cranberry juice or supplements. The juice works (and it DOES work!) by preventing bacteria from clinging inside you.

      If you get worse, or run a high fever (unlikely), you may wish to try a clinic again – a different one, of course! But you will likely heal on your own. Keep us posted.

      Best wishes,

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Hi Treefrog (love your name)
        Welcome to the forum.
        Yes, Cat&Mouse is right, the Q is: are you HPV- or HPV+?
        Given your profile, I’ll bet you’re HPV- and cannot benefit from pap testing, MOST women your age ARE HPV-
        Your age might be a factor too, I know a few women who produced an “abnormal” pap test in their 50’s after years of normal pap tests. (usually around menopause or post-menopause) Also, the pap test can be very painful after menopause and the exam itself can cause damage, some older women are left sore and bleeding.
        These “abnormal” results were all false positives, probably caused by the pap test picking up normal changes in the cervix. (or due to the damage caused by the test itself, bleeding can cause a false positive)
        False positives are a risk at any age, but especially when you’re under 30, pregnant, up to a year after childbirth, when you’re menopausal or post-menopausal. (so infections, inflammation, (condoms, tampons) trauma (childbirth etc.) hormonal changes (pregnancy, menopause) and perfectly normal changes in the young and maturing cervix.
        Young women produce LOTS of false positives, especially those under 25 – it’s the pap test picking up transient and harmless infections and perfectly normal changes in the maturing cervix. This is why countries like Finland and The Netherlands do not offer pap testing to those under 30 OR HPV testing. (about 40% would test HPV+, but young women usually clear the virus over a year or two, but age 30 only about 5% are HPV+, these are the only women who should be offered a 5 yearly pap test) Pap and HPV testing our young women just leads to grief for many of them, we know it, but so many countries continue to pressure young women to test, like Australia, America, Canada, Germany etc.

        Our bodies change…normal changes, the pap test often calls it “abnormal”.

        You can test yourself for HPV, I know women who’ve used the Delphi Screener, (the self-test device invented by the Dutch) all of the results were HPV-, they were all 45+ and either single or in a monogamous relationship. These women have all dropped out of pap testing and most won’t bother with HPV testing again, they’re confident they won’t acquire a new infection.
        One has decided to test one final time at age 60, she feels it can’t hurt and will further reassure her, after years of pap test drama, many women need that reassurance. Women have been trained to greatly fear this always-fairly-rare cancer and not to trust their asymptomatic body.
        About 95% of women aged 30 to 60 are HPV- and most are having unnecessary pap tests, all they do is expose themselves to the risk of a false positive, excess colposcopy/biopsy and over-treatment.
        It’s horrifying your doctor mentioned a hysterectomy…but sadly, IMO, the female body isn’t valued and respected by many in medicine, it’s viewed as a potential site for cancer, you don’t need it anymore so why not get rid of it? I find that an abhorrent attitude, I greatly value my cervix, uterus and ovaries as I do every other part of my body.

        A FP can mean re-testing, biopsies, treatments etc. It’s plain cruel to put women through these procedures when a quick test would give them the information they need to make an informed decision. Of course, the profession makes a fortune dragging all women into this testing, investigating “abnormal” results and from over-treatment.
        The fact is pap testing should only be offered to the roughly 5% of women who are HPV+, everyone else should be left alone. HPV+ women aged 30 to 60 are the only women with a small chance of benefiting from a pap test, everyone else is just exposing themselves to risk.
        HPV Today, Edition 24, will give you all the information you need on HPV and HPV self-testing.
        HPV- women need to stand firm, some doctors will say you still need pap testing, some are clueless, others are deliberately deceiving you.
        HPV- women cannot benefit from pap testing, but can be harmed, end of story. It’s the story they don’t want you to know, it’s the story that supports their multi-million/billion dollar medical industry. (it’s billions in the States)
        It’s the test itself, the pap test, that’s created this highly lucrative industry in the over-treatment of CIN, made even more profitable by screening the wrong way to produce even more false positives – early, too frequent and inappropriate screening.

        It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic, an American woman on a health forum was concerned about her abnormal pap test. I asked her a few questions, turned out she had a full hysterectomy (for benign fibroids) 10 years ago but her doctor had continued to recommend annual pap testing – that would be interesting, colposcopy and biopsy on a non-existent cervix! I assume they would have swabbed her vaginal vault and sent her away none the wiser. This is not medical care, it’s medical abuse.

      • TreeFrog says:

        Thanks for your input Elizabeth! Yes, I looked up the statistics you refer to – ha! – 95% of women my age do not have high-risk HPV. I’m feeling better every minute. Thanks girls. I am going to keep a lid on this situation and proceed very conservatively. Would be nice if I could wrangle HPV testing somehow. Thanks for the references and links.

      • adawells says:

        I can’t believe that an HPV test hasn’t already been done by your doctors and is sitting in your notes somewhere. In the UK they’ve just started to roll out HPV testing as the test which decides who should be recalled or not. To the best of my knowledge, any abnormal pap result is then checked for the HPV status. If HPV negative they go back to normal 3 yearly recall, even if the pap is abnormal. Only those who are also HPV positive get recalled.

        Of course, the HPV test is the one that should be done first by the woman, with a self test if she wishes, (which is what will happen in the Netherlands next January), but that would be the end of the lucrative vagina business if they did that, so HPV testing is being withheld in Anglophone countries.

  38. TreeFrog says:

    Hi All,
    [sorry, I posted this in page 1 of this topic – I now see it belongs here]
    Sue, thank you for this terrific site! It’s a relief to arrive here.

    My story is brief, but it pertains both to the accuracy of PAP smear results (pretty bad) and the quality of doctors (so far, mine seems pretty good). Let’s see what everyone thinks.

    I’ve had regular PAPs since I was 20 and went on the pill – then had the unnecessary yearly PAPs each year to renew my prescription. Then, after I went off the pill when I was 30, I got one every 3 to 5 years – all normal.

    Now I am 50. Good health, non-smoker, monogamous (hence few risk factors for cervical cancer). Went for a PAP (thinking that it was a good idea since it had been 4.5 years) and my family doc later informed me it was abnormal and referred me to a gyn for colposcopy. Referral got lost and I had to follow it up myself, but I didn’t hurry, thinking “good it was delayed – may have given any abnormalities a chance to go away!”. So after 6 months saw the gyn. He did a new PAP, and then colposcopy with biopsy and ECC (endocervical curettage). I didn’t mind the procedure, but I understand a lot of woman do. Gyn said he could not see anything alarming, took a biopsy of one small spot that was probably nothing, just for the sake of doing one, and said that I shouldn’t worry. Also reassured me that many paps give false positives.

    Six weeks later (this week) I go in for results, and lab (which is downstairs) has not sent PAP result to gyn yet, so I wait an extra 1.5 hours. Many apologies from doc and nurse. Finally get results: cervical biopsy entirely normal – yay!, ECC entirely normal – yay! … but new PAP: HSIL! What?

    Gyn explains that obviously cytology and histology do not match – not even close.

    Pointing out firstly that “we do not have to follow the guidelines,” he tells me the guideline for this kind of non-matching cytology vs. histology is cold-knife conization, and explains what that is. As a different option, he says that some women are so concerned about cancer risk that, in my shoes (and my age), they ask to go straight to hysterectomy (“what?” I’m thinking). Moving right along, he then explains that on the OTHER end of the spectrum (or speculum – ha ha – my joke), it’s perfectly reasonable to “watch and wait” and have another colposcopy etc. in three months’ time.

    “That’s the one!” I said.

    I am pleased that he did not try to pressure me into surgery. He actually seemed relieved and perked up when I chose watch and wait. I have my next appointment in February, for another colpo and ECC.

    I’ve since educated myself and learned that 50% of HSIL paps are false positives, and of those that DO accurately indicate CIN2+ on proven histology, at most 20% of those will ever (in the fullness of time) progress to cancer.

    I know my girlfriends would gasp in horror that I’m walking around watching and waiting when I’ve had an HSIL pap. Glad I can post here. With my gyn checking me in three months, I feel there’s virtually no chance that anything big will be going on “up there” that isn’t caught early. And the fact that both visual inspection with colposcope, AND biopsy AND ECC were negative persuades me that my HSIL result is probably one of the 50% that are actually simple inflammation.

    Anyway, that’s my story – and despite my confidence, I’d love for you all to reassure me that I’m not crazy. I scrupulously avoid letting anyone hack off perfectly good bits of me. I dodged this a few years ago when I had a tiny Stage 1 melanoma on my leg (found by me). Had it off, and result was thin melanoma – you don’t ignore this, but treatment is supposed to be conservative. Uninformed docs wanted to do invasive lymph node excision. Inappropriate, and not in the standard of care for what I’d been diagnosed with (simple skin excision is what I requested and eventually got, and had to fight to have the 5-minute procedure done with a local instead of with a general – sheesh!), but I had to fight them off! It was very alarming!

    This time it’s different – my doc seems to support my conservative approach. I’m hoping that I can get the next PAP test (or the one after that…) to match the clean biopsy results. Vitamins (folic acid, vit. A) here I come.

    Thanks for reading – comments more than welcome.

    ~Wendy (in Canada)

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Wendy TreeFrog. From your standpoint, if you would please share, what did the ECC feel like? It’s been a very long time, 25yrs, since I endured a colposcopy. It seems my mind has blocked 95% of it out and I can’t recall much at all.
      Besides what it felt like, where do you rate the pain on the 1-10 scale, with #10 being the worse imaginable? Did the MD numb you first? Did it take long? How did you feel afterward? Cramping that night?
      Have you had endometrial biopsy? That procedure is what got my husband busy looking for any alternative possible. There’s a very interesting youtube video re this. Shows how it should be done vs lying to us and putting us through stirrup hell.

      • TreeFrog says:

        Hi Cat&Mouse, and all,
        First off, I did not know I was getting an ECC (and this, of course, is not right). The gyn explained colposcopy and cervical punch biopsy, and said he would do a PAP test and then colpo/bio. I recall that once I was on the table, this is what I experienced (but I could be foggy on the order):

        1. PAP test (he said now I’m doing the PAP test, his nurse handed him stuff and he mentioned “broom and brush.” I just felt the usual mild pap test sensations.
        2. He tells me he’s swabbing the cervix with vinegar. I just felt a little tickling sensation and wetness. He looks through the scope, says he doesn’t see much that concerns him. Maybe just a tiny spot that he will biopsy since it’s the only thing there.
        3. He takes the biopsy. I feel a pinchy sensation (maybe a 4, pain-wise, but very brief) and slight cramp.
        4. He said, “now I will collect some cells from up where I can’t see.” More handing back and forth of stuff, and kind of a twisty, pinchy sensation (again maybe a 4 but lasted a few seconds) with a more sustained mild cramp afterwards. This, I gather NOW, was the ECC, since ECC appeared on the biopsy results I saw at my appointment last week. It also jives with what I understand now about ECC sample collection – they stick in a little tube-like thing and twist it to get a sheet of epithelium.

        Since I thought I’d only had PAP and one punch biopsy, I was puzzled as to why I bled quite significantly that day and for four days afterwards. I’m not pleased that I was not told about the ECC.

        As for how the ECC felt, for me, it was not a big deal – probably would have felt worse if I knew what he was up to – but that was not his call to make!

        Also, although I’ve asked twice, he has dodged telling me what the original PAP test result from my family doctor’s office was, that initiated this whole thing. The Ontario Cervical Cancer screening registry sent me a letter saying I had “mild changes” that required follow-up either with my family doc or a gyno. So my family doc sent me for colpo. Second PAP was HSIL (high-grade changes). Colpo, biopsy and ECC are clear. So here we are.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        The ECC gadget is steel, rectangular, and is lined with sharp blades. The idea is to move it in-out rapidly throughout the EC while applying pressure to all sides and while also rotating. It causes tissue to go against the blades where it is sliced off exactly like a cheese grater.
        Hope it’s cleaned thoroughly and autoclaved.
        The ObamaCare nonsense about pap is meant to blunt Republican desires to do away with ObamaCare.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Wendy TreeFrog Please do yourself a favor. Enter youtube video colposcopy. That’s all you need. It’s demeaning that he says “broom & brush.” Doing housekeeping and dusting? Another name for D&C, dusting and cleaning.
        When you see what occurred when he did the ECC procedure, you’ll know why you weren’t told in advance “what” he was going to do. When you watch it being done, you’ll understand why you bled for four days. This is no “one-pass” cell extraction. The ECC destroys your EC lining. Completely.
        Again, if one has a skinned knee, would you clean it with a wooden spatula? Same for the EC. Why use a grater on it? It is tissue destruction. If infection is present, it’s now embedded deep within the tissues. When you see it happening, you’ll want answers. As I did when I saw it.
        I hope you prevail in getting the original results. I’m very curious to know why doc wasn’t willing to disclose upon request.
        A four day bleed is proof of tissue destruction.
        The doctor saw your cervix move, as it does along with your uterus, when a cramp occurs.
        If you happen to discuss hysterectomy, ask him if you may, if losing the cervix and uterus effects orgasmic pleasure negatively. Thank you.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Dear Wendy TreeFrog,
      IF you do consent to additional colposcopy, consider this. Presently, your cervix has been traumatized. It is in an inflammatory state. Three months is barely enough time for that single layer of epithelial cells to regenerate. You likely will come out as abnormal. Wait at least six months. If you have disease, remember is is slow moving. Takes at least 1-1/2 years to overcome your immune system (unless helped along by pap scrape) and 5 yrs to mature to actual disease. Why rush?
      Funny how they describe “cold knife biopsy or conization” as something so benign when it isn’t
      Ask doctor to explain the pap results; demand an actual pathologist to reread the slide.
      Remember however, anything slightly abnormal will be marked with original Dx because they don’t trust that with correct Dx you’ll still obey their commands. They’ll lose money & entertainment.
      Find out if you have HPV! If not, then demand the gyn bus to hell stop and jump out!
      When you rebel, expect doctor to use the “you’ll die” excuse and also turn to your spouse and ask their help. Yeah, the person they want to keep out of the exam room will suddenly be asked to help bully you into submission when it’s the doctor’s objective, and not in your best interests.
      Remember, are you being given full information so you can make an informed consent decision?
      How I’d like to get us together with Ben Carson MD. I’d like to see if he has an open mind or not.

    • adawells says:

      You can only get cervical cancer if you have the HPV virus, so surely you need to ask them if you have the HPV virus or not? If you are HPV negative, I’d stop worrying and not go back.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      I’ve got news for you TreeFrog; I hope you take it seriously. My husband’s cousin lived in Toronto. She had a mole under her tongue the size of a pencil tip. It was melanoma and she suffered a horrible death. The medical “fix” was worse than the disease. She lived 18 more months unable to eat solid food, taste, she lost her teeth as well.
      My husband works in nursing. After many years, I finally consented to having two moles removed. One from my nipple, the other from my arm. Both came back highly atypia. I had to go back for margin clearing. Lost 1/3 of my nipple but reconstructive laser treatment has reshaped the collagen.
      Your body, like mine, has a tendency to create these moles that go crazy. I’m disabled and can’t tolerate sunlight. We have something in common.
      Regarding colposcopy. Please pay special attention to this too. My husband found this site for me trying to search for an alternative to pap. What we learned here, he verified by reviewing med school texts and questioning my gyn. The gyn verified the entire pelvic is useless w/o even knowing he did. The gyn verified everything the you’ll learn here too.
      Consider learning these things your second birthday.
      For one thing, did your doctor tell you whether or not you have HPV? Sounds like he hasn’t even requested your pap to be tested for that.
      The pap is 53% accurate. Are you amazed? Your specimen is NOT tested for HPV unless it’s both abnormal and the doctor requests it. I was floored to learn these facts. You know, w/o HPV you can’t get cervical cancer.
      There is a sarcoma type cancer that grows from deep within, usually metastisized from elsewhere. Doctors claim pap check for this, but it can’t. The computers that read your slides, and the pathologists who “sometimes” resample slides manually, can’t detect it either. That cancer will reveal itself through other symptoms long before it reaches your cervix.
      Back to pap. Hubby found Trovagene, which I forced my doctor to Rx for. The company is based in San Diego CA; phone is 858-952-7570; their public relations specialist is Brittany Gream at 858-952-7655. Or http://www.trovagene.com or info@trovagene.com or bgream@trovagene.com The cost coded for insurance billing #87621; cost is $140US with insurance or $120US cash. How is the exchange rate right now?
      You collect a sample of your first morning urine. Send it in via FedEx. Two weeks later, using PCR technology and anti-body p/u you get the results. 93% accurate and if you have it they automatically tell you which strain!
      Now re colposcopy. If you had a cut finger with a contaminated knife, would you clean it by scraping with a non-sterile wooden spatula? Something anybody could have played with before it was used on you? Staff handles these w/o gloves. The whole thing is set up that way.
      My point, if you have the virus, the spatula simply spreads it deep while scraping away your single protective layer of cells. That colpo brush? Your cervical mucus insulates your endocervical canal from virus. That brush carries the virus straight to rich tissues where you can’t fight it off.
      Doctors fail to tell us that.
      The colposcope and biopsy BS? Likewise, that endocervical “cheese grater” (yes, take a look at on youtube video of colposcope–the doctor is rough as can be while being totally glib in his voiceover), simply turns your tender endocervical tissue into ground meat. The doctor harvests a chunk of blood clot afterward for the lab. Now you know why we say it hurts so bad. Would a doctor do that to the inside of his urethra? NO! Again, if you’re infected, look how far it was just spread.
      This is why, the next step, cold knife or LEEP. Both are amputations. What is taken, cut off, does NOT grow back. Expect issues from then on with your uterus and cervix. They say it’s another biopsy/treatment (whhaaat!!) and mere millimeters are what keep your reproductive system intact or force you to hysterectomy. Notice how doc said some go straight to that radical treatment?
      The biopsy that’s chomped off your cervix w/o local anesthesia. Watch that on youtube too. Again, if you have something it will spread it deeper. Like how cancer takes off after a biopsy. You disturb it, cells flake off and travel to a new home.
      Years ago before I met my husband, my ex gave me HPV. Or so I believe. I was told I had dysplasia. Where?
      My husband obtained my records and personally reviewed the hand-drawn sketch (1970’s) of my cervix and where the problem was.
      The dysplasia was exactly in the pattern where that spatula is scraped. How does the infection seem to “grow” in that pattern? I had it in a single place and a Planned Parenthood nurse spread it around my cervix during a pap. PP didn’t check for CC back then; only VD or STI or STD whatever you want to call it. That’s how, I was told, I was further along.
      I had cryosurgery. Be sure you check out the video on that too. If you have that, and doc says the cold provides its own anesthesia, pay attention to the videos. One woman is experiencing such cramping while the probe is inserted the camera is moved away. Same happens during the treatments. A three minute freeze, then thaw, then freeze again. And the cramps when you stand up? Hey hey very intense childbirth pangs. Insist on a local, and IV sedation or pills. The “take two Advil 15 minutes before” is a placebo nothing more.
      Also, if a endometrial biopsy is suggested, only consent if that’s done under IV and local. Doctors will claim the 30 seconds of pain and it’s over. More like a minute of pain far, far, far worse than childbirth.
      There is a chiropractor in Chicago IL who treats CC or cervix issues w/o invasive destruction. He’s so popular and successful his website offers which hotels are good to stay at for those who fly in. He has pictures before and after.
      If you have disease, you treat it topically. The desired result is escharing. This is where the surface tissue is killed and the body sloughs it off. If I had to do it over, I’d go see him.
      Most of all–and this is for Jen too. NEVER go alone.
      Order your husband or someone you trust to go with you. Ask lots of questions b/c they won’t give you anything close to informed consent. If they say “uncomfortable” understand it will HURT!
      Read this: Correspondence. http://www.thelancet.com Vol 364 October 23, 2004. pgs 1483-1484 “Harms And Benefits Of Screening To Prevent Cervical Cancer.”
      It says “in the ever married (mortality) declined substantially.” The study also seriously knocks the overscreening, overtreatment, and the issues they cause. It even knocks the useless prostate screening.
      If you are asymptomatic, you don’t need screening. A monogamous relationship is a safe one.
      Personally, i’d like to see doctor’s offices tested. How many infections are transmitted because of poor office instrument hygiene and poor hand washing? Your dentist’s chair, anything you touch in that room is thoroughly wiped down with alcohol. Why not the place where your bare ass goes? That tissue paper supposed to offer protection?
      In my own experiences, my husband before marriage insisted he accompany me, against my wishes, or else we were over. He was right. Twice he has prevented me from a pep/pelvic when the doctor was doing it for his own thrills.
      We have also learned that ovaries can only be felt in a skinny young girl. Those of us bearing children? Perhaps they can feel our cervix and one inch of our uterus’. That’s it. Young women get most thorough exams while older women who could have issues are barely touched. Questions regarding our sex practices are asked with like intensity. Re both, why? For thrills.
      Last, having a female provider does not mean all will go well. Read experiences here.
      Thanks for your patience, and also for those who’ve heard me say these things before.
      This is the best go-to site for objective female reproductive discussion and info gathering.

  39. TreeFrog says:

    Thanks for the input, all. I am in Ontario and there is no HPV testing here. I’d love to find out that I’m negative! Will explore other avenues. Good advice re: waiting 6 months before another biopsy. Thanks again.

    • Moo says:

      You can check the official guidelines here http://sogc.org/clinical-practice-guidelines/ in the oncology section (scroll down). Since you are over the “magical” age of 35 and if you say that your “childbearing years are over” then most likely you will be recommended a hysterectomy. So don’t be fooled. They consider that something is there even if they can see nothing. Check websites that give more information to alternatives to hysterectomy. Be well informed. Having you come back for colposcopies also makes this doctor money. There are some naturopaths that will do paps and send them to a lab in the US (you have to pay for everything) so that the ontario cervical screening registry does not get the results. I think that likely they could do an HPV test as well.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Regarding the written history we’re all chipping in to create. I have three episodes in my life I want to add. Do I try to make them all fit a 3000 word one-story entry? Or submit them separately? Please advise.
        Now regarding Ontario’s pap hell. You’ve all answered w/o realizing it. Why don’t they offer HPV testing? Incorrectly about perceived money saved. Self-brainwashed they equate CC with every “pre” condition; those Dx’s we correctly call “no cancer.” Regardless of all warnings, every clinical indication taught from med school onward. First to colpo then eventually surgery. Unless truly in love with and believing his woman; or a female MD brave enough to challenge the system.
        They’ve prevented women and their significant others (together suffering hand-in-hand) from not having informed consent. Ontario thinks doctors know better. Collectively and objectively deciding for women. Willfully ignorant of the consequences.
        Give a man, better yet a male doctor PMS, a period, the dreaded well-woman visit (the first one being a total surprise), a pregnancy, an episiotomy, peri-menopause so he can have an endometrial biopsy, then all the joys of menopause. Let him see himself made powerless over a lifetime. Uniting and making men see and live our lives is the only way we force change. We cannot count on women in healthcare. They too similarly brainwashed to graduate.
        We are needed, we’re the last of the truly objective.
        Tape one-page fact sheets all over cities. Download letters, adding a personal account before sending to doctors & elected officials. Refusing to accept their propaganda, the PR-created answers. Tell a friend, a relative. Go to appointments, and ask question after question. Give them a “work slowdown” like they force on us when more pay is demanded.
        Ontario is keeping women medically ignorant for “efficiency.” An out of control bureaucracy.
        When, if they would slow down and “inform,” tremendous $$ savings would be realized. No more waiting months just for a stupid well-“doctor” (ha) visit.
        I agree with Elizabeth. Somehow, go somewhere. Get a second opinion w/”real objective testing.”
        Ask your doctor. Once he’s hollowed out your cervix; cut it like a pumpkin, will you be able to carry a baby to term w/o requiring your cervix to be sewed shut? How many miscarriages will it take for him to realize treatment is needed? A woman I know here (US) miscarried at least 2x requiring immense care. She hemorrhaged once & required hospitalization. Don’t put the terms to your doctor in a nice, med-school multisyllable, non-feeling discussion. Make him/her feel it!
        Will your periods be normal? Will you still enjoy an orgasm? If you have continuing issues or, worse yet, undesirable side-effects post cold knife, how soon before he/she recommends hysterectomy? What are the % of outcomes? How did the women fare short & long term? Good, bad, requiring general anesthesia & further surgery?
        Vs finding out, simply if you have HPV and really do require the above?
        I know I used a lot of space. I want women to “see” the differences vs knowing HPV status and the “other.” Figure out a way to present this to your doctors in the same way. Make them understand this isn’t some flippant, easy decision.
        Compare it to their testicles. Will you be capable of orgasm? What do other patients say?
        I lost my labia due to pain medication induced hormone suppression. I lost my powerful sexual urge and ability to have multiple orgasms. My husband? He still mourns time lost. More than I do because, I lost the desire and didn’t care. Now I’m again sexually awake. I care. For YOU.
        Do this for every woman carrying inside a surgically mutilated cervix. Validate her concerns. For she, like you, wonders. WAS IT REALLY NECESSARY?
        All this, because doctors are satisfied with 53% accuracy and all the false positive/negative results. Shameful.
        Last now, this is how tampons different than what your body’s used to can effect a pap.
        Anything foreign that your body doesn’t recognize can affect the moisture balance of cells. Will the cell have too much or too little moisture?
        The pap reading computer isn’t programmed to sort this variable out of the biological data. No algorithm for that nor anything else. Hence the 53% accuracy and 47% false readings. The average woman does NOT stand a good chance of even having a true result after all the hassle.
        The computer simply looks at the cell size. Then the nucleus. Big, small? Others nearby? How many vs other cells? What type are they? How many? Good or bad sample? After the first sampling, does it kick out (reject as bad specimen) or sample (read) and score?
        If the slide was prepared properly, it won’t be rejected.
        The computes are programmed with an internal dataset to have a narrow field as to what’s accepted and scored as normal. if these cells are not within the “programmed normal” size etc, and if there’s not enough “normal” cells, the machine flags them in various stages of abnormal. It may view them as mature when they are immature, vice-versa, or mistakingly see them as something else rather than what they are.
        The Certified Pathologist may catch this and correct the Dx. Or not. Who knows how many slides are there to manually verify? Defensive medicine may lead him/her to leave the inaccurate reading stand. Perhaps it was past criticism for making a correction. After all, doing so stripped doctors of re-testing or colpo money. Even more if the patient is attractive. Doctors would professionally persuade the pathologist, that the decision to overrule the machine “deprived the patient of necessary medical f/u to rule out pathology…while quoting the 53% accuracy and false readings!” We all pay tax money, insurance premiums, for this BS!
        When a simple urine test would suffice.

    • Moo says:

      I live in Ontario. There is HPV testing but only with a pap test and you have to ask for it when you get a pap and pay an extra $75 of your own money for it. OHIP does not pay does not pay for the HPV test. If you just had a pap then you have to wait until you are due for another pap and ask for the HPV test along with it or go somewhere and pay for a pap and a HPV test yourself. (Expect over $100). Because OHIP will only pay for a pap test every two years if you had the last one normal.

      The HPV test used in Ontario labs only has a result of no HPV or low or high risk HPV. If a clinic or doctor tells you that an HPV test is not available then they are lying.

      Phone the Ontario cervical screening board yourself since they are so eager to send put their reminder letters to everyone they should be able to give people accurate information about HPV testing along with their lies and propoganda.

      If you want an HPV test for your own. Good luck. You have to order from abroad and Health Canada will try to block you getting the self test into Canada.

      • TreeFrog says:

        Thanks for the info, Moo. I will ask for this at my next appt. And now I’m feeling more leery of the entire vagina industry – how can my gyn even mention cold-knife conization and hysterectomy (on my apparently disease-free cervix which is getting abnormal PAPs) and not once mention HPV testing? Bad medicine.

        And I am assuming that if I had said yes to the “prescribed by the guidelines” conization, he would have gone in VERY deep, since there is no “target” to aim for – no apparent disease. This would have been insane.

        Thanks again, all,

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Go view all the youtube videos on these procedures. They are graphic and revealing. When these happen, they are explained as if the bare minimum is being cut off. LIke, “assume” margins cleared. What happens is you’re carved out like a pumpkin.
        Consider this. They CANNOT determine the level of involvement inside the endocervical canal.
        So, why not just do cryosurgery? Same question applies to the entire cervix surface.
        Since HPV invades the very thin layer of surface cells, Why can’t they just use a larger donut to freeze off the cells? Turn the cervix into a type of ice rink. The freezing destroys a several mm tissue deep. Including what takes place inside the endocervical canal. See for yourself.
        This is the least destructive method per doctors.
        There ARE various sized “donuts” for cervix surface and “cones” which go into the canal as well as freeze/fry the area around the canal. Which is what I had done.
        The videos piss us off. My husband usually holds his testicles while watching with me and cussing over the cruelty and lack of patient consideration. I agree with him. He is a very good women’s advocate. If this happens to us, then eventually something will also apply to men. He despises doctors’ flippant attitudes to causing pain. “If it were a penis no pain would be tolerated.” He’s right about that.
        Why then, do doctors use LEEP and Cold Knife (Conization)?
        Watch the videos and judge for yourself.
        Cryo destroys things from surface down. Tissues regenerate somehow. My cervix looks normal compared to pictures. We’ve both looked at it.
        But if you compare mine, to a virgin cervix, to a post Leep or Cold Knife? Regarding the latter two cervix’, you can see large parts are gone and the cervix looks traumatized.
        I would love to hear your comments. Please compare all these and share your thoughts.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      First Moo. In the States, it’s illegal to ask for ID’s to vote. You must have ID for everything else though. Conservatives have brought up time and again that we need to change the laws. Liberals scream discrimination. Liberal media coddles them and gives life to their false claims. Elections here are automatically rigged. Illegal aliens openly vote, and they vote often at different polling places. As do other minorities. The dead aren’t removed from voting rolls. In CA now, having a drivers’ license is automatically tied to voting. Some cities have allowed illegals to be sworn into elected office. It’s an empty claim that minorities would be hurt by an ID requirement. Just the opposite in fact. Fairness to everybody which is what our Constitution is for. ID’s would remove suspicion about fraud. My husband is a poll worker. He refuses to work certain areas because what he sees, how it’s ignored by the Registrar, makes him so angry.
      Wendy TreeFrog. Some info re pap; how they’re processed. Perhaps why your colpo came back negative while the pap came back red flags attached. Elizabeth is right talking about hormonal changes in the very young 45. It’s how the test is read. We validated this reading a med school text. Years ago this was subject to a newspaper expose.
      In beginning days, people were hired to hover over microscopes. They were replaced by computers with algorithms. Programmed to “recognize” certain cells; exclude all others as suspect. Herein lies the key to 53% accuracy. Excluding blood, mucus, poor collection, etc, the computer cannot differentiate between cells a young or old cervix can produce. Nor those from the uterus vs cervix.
      Understand as I previously said, a single layer of epithelial cells on your cervix is what’s scraped away as the “sample or biopsy.” Which is why it hurts and why we spot. I’ve already commented on the colpo brush. Know any women who miscarried after pap while just becoming pregnant?
      A young maturing cervix, pregnancies, a woman in any state of menopause, produces different shaped cells than the “norm.” The computer does not look for virus or for cancer. It looks at cell shapes. How big is the nucleus? Are there other like cells present? Or are there immature or overly mature cells there too? What about other types of cells? Inflammation from infection or sex? Periods-endometrial sloughing-those cells can really screw it up. The computer counts what it sees as normal or outside the set “norm,” and sets a score.
      You can be perfectly normal (post colpo), but it scores you as malignant or HSIL etc.
      The machine is supposed to pick slides for resampling. A certified pathologist is supposed to pick samples for manual sampling. All to make things fit the “average,” 53% accuracy. False positives and negatives are accepted. Which is also why women are screened so often.
      If you’re outside the average, you’re screwed; and will be flagged for retest or colposcopy.
      Ask your doctor. Can you see how 53% is the best they can do? You are living proof of the harm caused. Get a scared woman w/o advocate in with a “happy” doctor and tragedy results.
      As for post hysterectomy women being pap’d repeatedly? Yes. I know of a woman… And yet we’re ordered to “do it” with an attitude as if we should be grateful.
      Pathologists, instead of clearing false-positive slides, allow them to remain flagged or even upgrade the false-positive Dx (defensive medicine-afraid of malpractice) thinking it will force all parties to an exam room to verify the cervix. Useless, even harmful medicine. Husbands will be pressured even more to be kept out of the room where a smart guy like my husband would ask a lot of questions. How many women are trained to understand this? Liberal media runs stories of attractive young women, “suffering” from an ovarian cyst, who are thoroughly tested and “saved from death” by their gyn. 2013 was the last time a US network ran this BS. We watched it, pissed at the doctor and sympathetic to the very attractive but scared slender young woman. Hate to imagine what she consented to. It was thorough beyond imagination.
      Tell me the gyn, male or female, didn’t enjoy being invited to “rule out” impending death.
      Said patient will run to have her next exam, keeping her advocate outside, now brainwashed into being a willing victim.
      Now you understand how we are bullied into allowing our babies to receive so many vaccinations too.
      This is how the confusion begins, and takes over the process. Your doctor will be reluctant to NOT pursue radical follow up because of a error-prone test. Yet, he/she cannot, neither can you, verify in any way whether you have HPV and require anything–OR NOT! Blind medicine. Stupid medicine. Happy employed doctors & politicians. A stirrup trained populace.
      Pap/pelvic exams are built around flawed, perverse technology.
      Birth control is the hostage. Shameful how many women avoid the doctor due to fear and past torture.
      Figure out a way to get a HPV test. Go to another province or to the States. Educate yourself and your entire family. Your health, your life, depends on it.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      No HPV testing in Canada, that protects their lucrative pap industry and over-treatment.
      Here in Australia we’ll move to HPV testing in 2017 but we’ll do it the wrong way so there will still be a lot of profit in the program for vested interests. We’ll test from age 25 so that means 40% of young women will be caught to start with…we’ll continue to test too often, send HPV+ women for colposcopy/biopsy (when they should simply be offered a pap test) and continue with testing until women are 72 or 74.
      So not as good as the last business model, but should still generate great money, of course, it’s a lousy deal for women.
      We had an opportunity to do the right thing and introduce an evidence-based program, NO, vested interest won again. You only have to do BASIC research to find HPV testing is not a good idea before age 30…we’ll test from 25.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Wendy, if you travel, you can use the Delphi Screener in Singapore or the Netherlands. I know Canada is strict with imports, a poster here had her Pills seized by customs, so I assume if you ordered the Delphi Screener online, that might happen too.
      It’s worth sending off some emails though…Delphi Bioscience is the relevant company.
      The urine test used by Cat & Mouse might be easier for you to source, or a quick trip to the States might be in order.
      Good luck!

  40. Chrissy (UK) says:

    Thanks for sharing your story. I found it quite moving, so much of it resonating with me as you describe so well how you felt violated by coerced cervical screening. The whole well woman and obgyn industry is perverse in my opinion, with no recognition of how these exams and tests affect us psychologically. The medical profession doesn’t give a damn how we feel, everything is geared to dismiss our distress and trauma. They like to tell us how it is from their perspective, so we are told that the doctor/nurse has seen it all before, it is not in any way sexual, it is part of being a woman, it’s a responsible thing to do, you are taking care of your health like a big girl, it won’t hurt a bit, they will stop if we want them to, it is a routine exam and that horrible old chestnut, you will die a horrible death if you don’t get tested. On and on it goes.

    None of these coercive statements work on me anymore. I am older now and jaded by my experiences at their hands from the age of 17, mainly to do with pregnancy and childbirth. They will never and I mean never get me to submit to these exams again.

    I will give them no more opportunities to hurt or humiliate me.

    • Chrissy (UK) says:

      Linda and Adawells,
      Thank you for your kind words. It means a great deal to me to find other likeminded women who understand the pain of others and who support and not dismiss or ridicule their experiences. I met Elizabeth, Sue, Kleigh and others on a website called Blogcritics and the subject was unnecessary pap tests. There were a total of 10,000 comments posted mainly by women who had had enough of being treated like sheep run through dip, but unfortunately the blog was taken down and to my knowledge has not been re-instated. I am cynical enough to believe that it was removed due to pressure from those with vested interests in keeping women compliant and in the dark.

      Thanks to Sue, we had another place to go to with forwomenseyesonly, as I would have been devastated to lose contact with others who felt the same way as I did.

      Linda, I will have a think about posting something, probably along the lines of how the medical profession psychologically manipulate and coerce women.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        My story will be a bit different, I consider myself one of the lucky ones, I managed to dodge and weave until I was old and bold enough to tell them straight, NO PAP TESTS, got it! It was fairly easy to refuse breast screening, that’s the insane thing, the MOST pressure is about a very small risk, cervical cancer. (and most women are no risk)

        I have lived my life “around” pap testing or for the first 35 years anyway, now I stare it in the face with contempt. This test has detracted from the lives of so many women, even just the dread of the “due date” approaching. A woman (online) told me she can’t help the increasing anxiety as the 2 years ticks away, her stomach starts churning and nausea and insomnia start about 2 months before the summons arrives…ALL so unnecessary.
        She’s now self-tested for HPV, is HPV- and can get on with her life, the black cloud has been lifted, it didn’t need to be there in the first place, she mourns for all the time and happiness she lost worrying about this testing.

        I feel for all the woman harmed by this testing, physically and psychologically, but also resent the negative impact it’s had on the lives of women, the reduced quality of life reported by so many women…simply enduring this test every 2 years.

    • linda says:

      Thank you Chrissy. I’m glad you’re not havi g anymore exams too. Its not that we are irrisponsible its just that why shoild we have them if we don’t want. I was never asked at anytime did I want one only lied to that i had no choice. I’m so fantastically angry i can’ see me ever letting this go.
      Would you like to put something in our book you are mord than welcome to. You write so elequently when you post here. X

    • adawells says:

      Chrissy this is a beautiful piece of writing, I think it should go into Linda’s book. It says it all about this dreadful business. I find it hard to write because my anger gets in the way. I have written pieces for Linda’s book, but I have to have a cooling off period before submitting them. What you have written is without emotion. I simply cannot imagine what it must be like to have all the pap crap at such a young age. In my mid 20’s it was a bad enough ordeal for me, but when I think these fanatics are wanting teenagers to go through these tests, it is simply abuse, or a form of FGM.

    • linda says:

      Hi Cat&Mouse.
      Anything you want to put towards the book is great. You can submit any amount of articles. All I ask is you either type it into the speak your mind in the submissions article or write them in a word programme and then copy and paste.

  41. adawells says:


    I’m not sure if the UK is doing HPV testing or not now, or whether it is only trial areas. I have just seen a very recent tweet that it may be another 5 years before they roll it out nationwide.
    The comment from abritosa after this article is fantastic and so true.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      Funny that, isn’t it? They managed to set up the call/recall system within a few years, yet any changes to their precious programme take forever to implement.
      As for Sasieni, I would never trust anyone who works for or sleeps with a charity like CRUK – talk about vested interests!

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      I’m not sure about the situation here in Australia either, I certainly hope they test before sending women for biopsies etc. I wouldn’t be surprised though to find they don’t bother, there seems to be an attitude that an abnormal pap test (CIN 2 or 3) always involves HPV, we know that’s certainly not true with young women. I suspect it’s not true for older women either, my sister got a CIN 2 pap test result with no HPV, it was put down to inflammation from a new brand of tampons.
      Here HPV testing has been used as a test of cure, testing women AFTER treatments, how convenient is that? HPV+ and she still has HPV, HPV- and we cured her, perhaps, she was always HPV-

      Even if young women are HPV+, they shouldn’t be sent off for biopsies etc. This is the problem when you include young women in this testing, they tend to be the group that really gets hit with (excess) treatments.

      I was reading an article the other day on HPV and it was a given you don’t test before age 30 so our medical leaders and associations, after years of careful consideration, have decided we’ll test from age 25. It really is astonishing, but it says to me this testing is mostly about them, not us. Who cares about the evidence? Not us, it’s about filling up waiting rooms.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Actually with my sister, I’m not sure she was ever tested for HPV, perhaps, she was tested after the cone biopsy? That’s usually what happens, (test of cure) I think they just assumed she had HPV because of the CIN 2 result.
        It would have been hard for them to say they cured her with the cone biopsy though, “no HPV now, so we cured you!”
        The tissue sample was completely normal so it was put down to inflammation from the tampons. (not “cured” by the cone biopsy)
        I don’t think she had HPV…but even though it was a false positive, they did try to rope her into extra testing. Thankfully, though..she did her reading and they haven’t been able to hurt her again, she’s now a long-standing and proud non-tester.

      • adawells says:

        I meant to mention as well, in the above article that Sasieni says it would cause chaos if the UK switched to HPV primary testing, because so many people would lose their jobs. No concern to stop the torture and threats carried out in women’s “healthcare” then?

    • linda says:

      Hi Ada. I’m so sorry about your experience. I think you like me found putting it into such eloquent words helps heal. Its only when we take a step back and really think about the ‘minutae’ of what actually went on during our consults can we grasp the full horror of it all.
      It will help other women those who read sue’s forum and those who downliad these stories. Its perfect for the book and i will copy it later.

      • Alex says:

        Ever try doing it back to them? If they get pissed-off, they make it obvious that they were trying something. If they don’t reply when you ask them why they’re getting so pissed-off, that tends to work as something of a confession.

      • adawells says:

        Hi Linda, I hated the way your nurse always used pet terms for you. I find these terms like pet, poppet, sweetie, honey,.sugar plum, that these medical professionals use are so utterly patronising. It’s all done to infantalise us, to make out that those of us who decline are such silly little girlies. All part of the training they get for the programme, I’m sure.

  42. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    but sadly, with a damaged cervix, like many other Australian women.

  43. katrehman says:

    Adawells and Linda I’ve been in tears.. Two women I’ve come to regard as friends to be treated so appallingly. I’m so sorry! I have no words. I’m not sure I can say anything for the book.. My story is nothing really. Thinking of u x
    And all the other poor women hurt by the vile testing

    • adawells says:

      Kat, you’ve made some great comments on the NHS website, and to Anne Mackie too, and you can’t get higher than that in the NHS screening programmes. I’m sure it’s been invaluable in making our points heard. There must be thousands of women who have had my experience. After I opted out of screening I had absolutely nothing more to do with it at all, and I think there must be many sitting quietly in this situation. What a joy it is to see so many people now making some great comments against this programme online. Unfortunately it was my getting endometrial cancer in 2013 that made me turn to the internet for answers and get into social media. Elizabeth answered one of my comments and introduced me to this website. I would still have been blissfully unaware of campaigns such as this if I hadn’t been forced to seek gyne treatment. I’ve come late to this game and I feel a great deal of gratitude to those who have been fighting this cause for decades, while I quietly sat out of the game. Thank you Sue, for setting up the site, and Elizabeth for endlessly fighting this cause and standing up for our suffering.

      • katrehman says:

        Thanks adawells!! Maybe I will add a post for the book. It’s appalling that this test is billed as harmless and nothing and is affecting so many women so badly. And women are blamed and told to get over it! I don’t think you’ve set on the fence at all. You needed to heal physically and mentally before you did anything else!

  44. Diane Spero says:

    i’m diane ,

    This is my gyn experience.

    My mom to me to gyno when i was 18. i was scared didn’t know what was going to happen.
    My tried to decide my form of birth control.
    I could go through the exam , the dr said i was nervous and tight,

    I had a nasty abortionist at 21. The hospital where i had it let me self abort.
    I abused drugs after that.

    I tried for yrs to find out why sex hurt. No exam no answer,
    the spectulms always freaked me out.

    No Dr would help me because I could not have an exam. I asked for sedation, etc.
    They would say come back when you can have an exam.

    They destoryed my ability to enjoy sex or have kids.

    Yrs of trying to get medical help, resulting in ptsd and a waste money.

    i wanted help all i got was traumized!

    I am so glad i longer put my self through the trauama!

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Diane, I identify with your experiences. My first visit, I had no idea, mother the enabler took me, saying nothing. What a terrible surprise! The female doctor s/h stopped due to my crying. And the pain. My traumatic welcome to womanhood. That same terror before every gyn visit since. Someone here called it “the rape lounge.” Yes. My husband says divorces begin here and in the delivery room. PTSD. Yes. Pain. Breasts, vaginas, our bodies. Physical pain felt in our beautiful, terrified sex organs, our very beings, stinging our souls. Another appointment. Body and brain confronted again. Fighting back another assault. Again, my fight or flight response. Tension, quickening heart beat, narrowing vision, cold sweat. Brain has no answer, body can’t fight nor take flight. Dignity lost. Feeling shame. Every touch like an invasion. No words, only tears. “Not again. Don’t hurt me. Soothe me. Protect me. Love me. Stop this assault! Stop this pain!” Everybody should, but no one does. Not believed, not validated. Trapped, recoiled and tightened. Invaded anyway. My body won’t accept and my brains can’t process. PTSD. Yes.

      The war over our bodies. We fight to keep it, the doctors fight to control it, to take it whenever they want. War is hell.

      If it’s felt this is appropriate, please add this to our “book” of experiences.

    • linda says:

      Hi all. I’m so glad we are all friends. I still can’t beleive I have found this site. I go on it everyday to read all your comments.

      Of course i will be including Diane in what we must think of as ‘our’ book. Her accounts of her experiences are very painful to read. The testing has left her unable to have sex. I would be devestated if it were me. If you don’t mind Diane I will use this latest post and one or two others you gave done before to create your full story. I promise you your story will be the first one people will read as it is so harrowing.

      Hi Kat – don’t devalue your experience. You didn’t come to this site for nothing. Something has made you gel with all of us here. You are very welcome to put in anything you like.
      If you want you could do some research on paps and post your findings.

      Everyone should try to think of it as ‘their’ book. Its not mine only in that i have the knowhow to get on the amazon site and do this. I can make it blend in with some of their more profess looking stuff.

      This is a fantastic site to belong to – if our book saves one woman and brings her here it will have been worth it.


      • katrehman says:

        Thanks Linda… I’m sure I posted here that it’s only since I found out basically how useless the test is and the way we’re bullied into it. Plus all your experiences here, that now I’m realising how bloody angry I am over it all so leave that idea with me…! And every one, thanks again!

      • Diane Spero says:

        fyi woman gyn’s didn’t help either. didn’t treat me better than the male gyn’s.

      • Diane Spero says:

        lease share my story. hopefully another other women won’t suffer like i have. yrs of tramua
        and no solution to my issue!

  45. susanne5544@yahoo.com says:

    This is trending on Facebook right now. Lots of praise for Obamacare and how it supposedly has increased the amount of early cc detection. Some of the comments are unbelievable. The ones I hate the most are from other women commanding everyone, “Ladies, get your paps.” One commenter also replied that her cc was caught early even before it was stage 1 and that she only has to have surgery and undergo a short course of chemo. First of all, I didn’t know there was anything before stage 1. That doesn’t sound right. Second, if it was caught that early, why the need for chemo. Wouldn’t surgery be enough? There are really some whacky people commenting on these stories.


    • bethkz says:

      Before stage 1 is stage 0. Stage 0 is what we are told are “abnormal pap results” indicating “a precancerous condition”. This is PRE-cancer. If you have “pre-cancer”, YOU DO NOT HAVE CANCER! It does mean that cells are somehow changing in ways which may indicate they are turning into cancer, or it may be ordinary changes, or changes as a reaction to something else (chemicals in the environment, diet, soaps, feminine products…). Surgery on a “pre-cancer” is being overly-cautious, in general, and chemo is certainly over-kill. HOWEVER, the more people who have these pre-cancerous conditions, who are convinced that it was “caught early” and feel that it saved their life, the more spokespeople are there to point to. Adding the chemo, complete with all of its side-effects, serves to show these “survivors” as appearing to be ACTUAL cancer patients. It’s nothing more than Munchausens by Proxy. It’s an abusive waste of resources and money, let alone the human costs.

      • katrehman says:

        Off topic but… Ladies in the UK it was announced yesterday in the spending review that the proceeds from the so called tampon tax the VAT we pay on sanitary wear, is to be channelled back into women’s charity and health research. Why don’t we all events mail our MPS and the health secretary that the money is spent developing /refining cervical screening so the test is more acceptable for those that CHOOSE to screen? They were bleating on about donations to the eve appeal. Surely this would be more appropriate??

  46. katrehman says:

    Should b email sorry. Did anyone also hear the tory reply to the ruling that women are paying for their own health care by having periods?? paying to be bullied into screening said it all!!

  47. Linda says:

    Yes I saw it Kat. Tampon Tax. Now matter how hard we push in anything everything comes down to the fact we are women. We never escape that fact. When I was young Kotex was the only thing available and at the time 1976 they were astronomically priced. i think I remember them being £2 a pack. For the last ten years or so I shpped around in Wilko’s and then Bodycare. Thankfully that’s all behind me now but it annoys me now that they’re going to use it as a form of tax to pay for women’s health care.
    We are no further on as women than we were two hundred years ago.

    • katrehman says:

      Linda I just read dianes story and I wondered as I think it’s so well put, hope she does too it’s dignified and hard hitting at same time. Could I please ask you to do something similar for me using my posts? For the record I’m low risk one partner before my present hubby, with hubby 20 odd years one child. I know you’ll find the right words for the utter violation and physical pain I felt

      • linda says:

        Hi Kat. Yes I will do that tomorrow. I will post it so you can check its ok. X

      • Anonymous says:

        Thanks Linda it’s only fitting really and if you’re Ok with it I’d like it said that u the author found me on another site and directed me here

  48. katrehman says:

    Thanks Linda after all its only fitting in a way and if you are comfortable with it I’d like it said that u were the one who found me as it were and brought me here!!

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