Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog. (click on title or graphic to go to comments)

About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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1,406 Responses to Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

  1. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Well, well, well, haven’t they kept this quiet? I just found a local web address for Delphi Bioscience. It says “your doctor can order a Delphi Screener for you”…so the Screener will be locked behind doctors. Now why doesn’t that surprise me…


    Women who don’t want to go through a doctor might be able to get it from Singapore, I’ll let you know when I hear from Delphi Bioscience.
    A few interesting things:
    “Will the Delphi Screener only be available through prescription?
    This depends on the country. The Screener can be offered for free through the government, or can be bought at the pharmacy, or be provided by a general practitioner or gynaecologist.”

    “Where is the Delphi Screener available?
    We are currently using the Screener in many countries around the world to collect local information on the use (Netherlands, Finland, Italy, Germany, Malta, USA, Singapore).”

  2. Alex says:

    It’s not really related to this subject, exactly- but did you hear about doctors in the U.K. trying to get KITCHEN KNIVES BANNED?! They are so into micro-managing people’s lives that they think somoene shouldn’t even have kitchen knives.

    Supposedly, it’s because they are used in attacks- but what is someone supposed to grab if they get attacked? As it is, guns are a huge controversy & so are regular knives (but fixed & folding). For some reason BOWHUNTING is illegal in Britain, too. Better amputate people’s hands because they could use those to protect & provide for themselves!

    What happened to England? I don’t know if Scotland or Wales is like this or if they’re blanketed by all this “rubbish” (as they call it), but it’s getting to the point where it seems like they or someone else wants them to curl up in a ball & die! For fuck’s sake, it’s things like this that people went to outright WAR for! This wasn’t even always against a foreign enemy & after at least 1000 years of history, you’d think the lesson would be learned.

    I’m only a little Irish & English, but it still gets me a bit cranked-up. One of my cousins is in London right now, actually. I’m starting to get worried that she’ll get all kinds of shit aimed at her like she would in America. Maybe she’s got too pointy of a pen or something.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Alex, you’re 100% right! Not only in UK, but also in Australia. Back when the “do-gooders” in Australia got guns banned, and ordered all be turned in and destroyed, the next thing on “protect society from itself” menu was, you guessed it, knives. These were also described as “killing machines.” Laws were discussed which provided police access to knock on anybody’s door and inspect that all knives were placed under lock and key.

      What is society coming to? The lawmakers and police disarm us, claiming it’s how we need to be protected from ourselves. Hundreds of people die each year waiting for help on 911. Meanwhile, the same police beat, abuse, kill, and loot the people they are protecting. Laws are regularly violated by those who enforce them. And the media rarely covers these stories, unless there’s fresh bloody film. And the cops make sure to destroy cameras and film if they can. If you want real news on this, check out http://www.nranews.org. At least the US NRA is truthful.

      Meanwhile, Islamists everywhere are torturing, raping, murdering in the name of their religion. I just discovered the Islamist child drugging and molest network in UK. And in the Middle East, there’s talk of bringing back sex slave markets, where captured infidel women are sold off, to be used and disposed when no longer desired. It’s in the Koran… If there is a new ten-state Islamist union formed with Turkey as its head, this is the beginning of End-Times Prophecy. Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, Revelations are being played out before our lives. Within 10 yrs, immigrant muslims will have voting majorities in Europe. Multiculturilism does not work when the immigrants do not want to assimilate. Happens in US, everywhere. And nobody dare report it in the news.

  3. Ro says:

    I keep up-to-date on politics via different political blogs as I find those to be the most unbiased. Today, however, people were discussing health care on one of those blogs and the following conversation was in the comments:

    Comment 1: “I’m a medical student. Most of us are, in fact, at least partially motivated by money. A MD/DO is a straight one way ticket to upper middle class at least. Sure, we want to help people, but we also want the money. Anyone who tells you different is lying through their teeth.”

    Comment 2: “That’s what I figured. I work in the medical field and the doctors who aren’t in it for the money are few and far between, and there’s nothing wrong with that.”

    There you have it ladies (and gents). Straight from the horse’s mouth. People wonder why there are those of us who think that doctors do things for incentives or more money. People wonder why we think their primary focus isn’t to actually help people heal, but to make money. Maybe because it’s true and they even admit to it. I’m so aggravated by this. I know we’ve all discussed it here before, about money being a big deciding factor in how doctors handle things (and these comments only serve to validate those assumptions), but to actually see those in the medical field admit to it is particularly awful. I am so horrified by this. And in regards to “there’s nothing wrong with that”, there’s SO MUCH wrong with that. The fact that they think there’s nothing wrong with doing something that involves the well-being of others for money just goes to show how twisted the “logic” in the medical field is. Good grief.

    • Moo says:

      Yes most people do work for money.

      The car mechanic, the hair stylist, the medical doctor all provide services for which they get paid. They can recommend services that I do not want and I feel that I can decline. They all deal with safety issues such as a car machanic can deem a car unsafe to keep it off the road, a hair stylist might refuse to colour a person’s hair with a known allergy to hair dye. But is this all similar to the medical profession? A doctor could ask a few screening questions that lead to a sleep study and someone is diagnosed with sleep apnea. They are told they have to attend further appointments and purchase an expensive CPAP machine (though no way of determining if they are using it) or the doctor will have their driver’s licence suspended. For many people taking their ability to legally drive means much hardship.

      Anyway I am really sick of MDs ranting on about how long and expensive their education is. It should be paid for by public funds as all education should be. Any number of professions such as hair stylist, car mechanic also has to be licenced and pay rent etc. there is really no excuse for the medical profession to give such lousey customers choice and bad customer service.

      • Ro says:

        Moo – I personally think there is a huge difference between hair stylists/car mechanics/etc. and doctors. The first big difference is that car mechanics and hair stylists do not directly affect the well-being and health of any human being (I say they don’t DIRECTLY affect people because while a mechanic could make a mistake and mess up someone’s car creating potential dangers, and a hair stylist could potentially dye someone’s hair which would cause them to have an allergic reaction, neither of these were done for money or ulterior motives, they were just unfortunate mistakes as everyone is human). If they include more than what is necessary to get more money, no human being has actually been harmed in the process. Furthermore, when is the last time you met a car mechanic or hair stylist whose main motivation was money? I can’t remember. Every one that I’ve encountered has been passionate about and enjoyed those things, then decided to pursue them as a career. Of course they need money to sustain themselves and of course everyone works for money to an extent, the point is that their motivation to enter into those specific fields was NOT money. It was their interest in the field. If they were in it for money, hair stylists and car mechanics would have entered a more lucrative field such as law or the medical field. In the case of a stylist refusing to dye someone’s hair because they have an allergy, that is common sense. Besides which, it is perfectly legal and possible for someone to dye their hair on their own accord. There isn’t any barrier one must go through to get the dye. You can even buy professional grade dye from beauty supply stores. If a mechanic deems a car unsafe to drive, you can trust that it really is unsafe to drive. They don’t make money off of someone not driving. If everyone was off the roads then they would be out of business entirely. That is just my opinion on the matter though.

        I agree that the medical field gives lousy customer’s choice and bad customer service. However, there seems to be a sense of entitlement that comes with the degree, because they were in school for so long and did spend out so much money.

  4. Moo says:

    A surgeries a procedure that repairs the cervix and even treats cervicla cancer. It is largely ignored. This article also explains why freezing, burning the cervix and cone biopsies which are done after a bad Pap test result are so damaging and really not necessary.


  5. Moo says:

    Herbal treatments of the cervix. What LEEP actually does and the cervix does not grow back. The damage is permanent. See these photos.


  6. Moo says:

    There is some talk of urine tests for HPV becoming available soon. If this is a doctor office only test it is actually worse. The standard unrine test (just leave the little cup there with your name on it) is going to mean more nonconsented testing that is reported to the government registry for women where I live. It is going to be more harassment for further “investigations” and reporting of cancer cases (no vacation travel insurance, job security etc). I already had one doctor do unconsented STI tests on my sample that I left for what I thought was a bladder infection.

    So what I can do is take the lab form and the bottle home and deliver it myself to the lab. Or just totally not go to doctors at all.

    We need private confidential testing and treatments by our choice. Not forced coerced tests.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Moo, yourself and Elizabeth are just amazing in the info you discover and medical practices you elucidate us to knowing. I am forever grateful to the efforts made here. This reminds me of Joan Rivers dying due to things being performed that she never gave advance consent to do.

      Could you please remind me how you know that HPV cannot be latent? My husband has mouth cankers all his life. Now and then I get a cold sore; these are caused by a herpes virus. The herpes virus apparently lives somewhere in either our mouths or nerve system and attacks…

      Where does the HPV virus hide out? Just in the area where it chooses to infect? And if our bodies beat it off, or if it’s otherwise killed by medical treatment, it it truly gone forever?

      I’m going to make my gyne appt soon, and see if I get the Delphi or something else. There won’t be a pelvic done. The doctor already knows and has agreed… Thanks in advance!

      • Moo says:

        Wow I have to keep repeating the same information.

        I could not find any published scientific study that proves that HPV can be a latent infection in the genitals in the way that the Herpes virus stays latent in the nerve cells. There is only a paper that was published that suggests a theory of latency of HPV. A theory that was not proven.

        There are over 100 strains of HPV that infect humans. Some give people foot warts and some only infect the genitals. Some people might have more than one strain of HPV at one time or have serial infections with different strains at different times in their life. The theory is that immunity against a particular strain should be long lasting otherwise how would the vaccines work? But then I have read that the vaccines really do not work as well as they should be and the there are the side effects.

        HPV tests are either positive or negative for certain high risk strains all lumped together or with separate test results for HPV 16 and 18 since those are going with the vaccine.

        Often the body’s immune system will fight off the HPV infection within a few years. Sometimes the viral DNA will get into body cells and change them into cancer cells which will divide until they are tumors. Some herbs do help fight HPV infection. Diet, exercise and stopping smoking also help the immune system. The medical “cure” for HPV infection is either cutting out tissue, burning with laser, heat or chemicals or freezing to destroy tissue. However this “cure” does not kill off any random infected cells or cells that have turned into cancer cells unless they are removed by the destruction. Some women will have LEEP more than once and their cervical dysplasia comes back. Some ointments are available for genital warts outside the body but drugs for internal (such as inside the vagina or cervix) are only at the experimental stage.

        Being immune suppressed puts a person at risk of getting any type of infection and dying from it. These are organ transplant patients, cancer patients receiving conventional therapies, HIV victims, very old or young and sometimes pregnant women.

        The interesting fact is that young women tend to have HPV infections while the cancer in women over 50 is higher. So what is happening that women get reinfected or get different strains when they are older that their immune system cannot fight off? HPV infected cells turned cancer cell grow quickly or not since this maybe has not been studied. If the cell DNA was changed then there is something that turned on the cancer genes but no one understand this.

        I do not know your situation. Just decide what you want from a doctor. Get the facts and if you feel that a Pap test, HPV test or pelvic exam is right for you then do that. If you do not, then don’t. It’s your body.

  7. Mint says:

    Taken from a web page of a GP surgery in the UK…….

    “Under certain conditions we may be able to issue repeat prescriptions of the contraceptive pill without the need to see a doctor or nurse.

    You may apply for a repeat prescription of the same contraceptive pill if

    you are aged between 18 and 35
    you are currently taking certain contraceptive pills that have been prescribed by a GP at our practice. The list of pills is available on the application form.
    you have had your blood pressure and weight measured in the last year, either in the practice or by a health professional, and these are within safe limits.
    you have had a cervical smear test within the last three years.
    you are happy with your current pill and have no problems or side effects”

    It would appear that the doctors and nurses at this surgery missed the day at medical school when informed consent was discussed.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Mint, I found something similar on a website here, so it seems some doctors are still using the Pill to mislead women into pap testing. I tried to lodge a complaint and was shuffled from one place to another, they make it as hard as possible. Instead I sent my complaint straight to the Clinic, received no response.
      Everyone in medicine knows this goes on…and everyone ignores it, it protects the program, helps reach the target securing target payments…and it’s “for our own good”. Incredible that respecting women’s legal rights and adhering to proper ethical standards appears to be too difficult in women’s healthcare. No one has clean hands here, the GPs have often received tips from the Govt/screening authority on ways to increase coverage, achieving a target will clash with informed consent. So when coverage is the only consideration, all of these tactics are over-looked or justified as necessary to save lives etc.
      Mint, I’d send the UK Medical Council a link to the website and make a formal complaint. Discussion and concerns about informed consent in women’s cancer screening are more advanced in the UK, I think they’d be forced to take action.
      It’s only when doctors are challenged that they’ll change their behaviour. Sadly, they’ve been getting away with this sort of outrageous conduct for far too long.
      When a woman is led to believe a pap test is a clinical requirement for the Pill, she’s been misled into the test, that IMO, negates all consent and is a serious matter. Doctors are so bold and comfortable flouting our legal rights they even include the evidence on their websites. It will take a long time to change the current thinking and conduct, but it starts when we challenge, report, complain and reject.

    • adawells says:

      We only have a choice of 2 GP surgeries in our area, and I am sure that before about 2010, the wording on their websites always said “all new female patients will be given a smear test”. After my smear test from hell in 1997 I repeatedly looked to change doctor, but was trapped by only being able to select surgeries in our catchment area, and both said that all new women patients would be given a smear test. As we have the larger practice near us I stayed where I was, as I started to realise that if you saw someone who wasn’t your named GP, they never bothered you for smear tests. It may have been because their 80% target had to be from only those on their list, and they gained nothing in screening someone elses patient.

      I’ve noticed that both practices have since updated their websites and this has now been taken off. However, I did recently get an application form for another practice, which asked when my last smear test was, so the pressure may still be there, but just not on the website anymore.
      I’ve also noticed that surgeries are switching to online appointments and repeat prescriptions, and I do not know what would happen if a woman tried to book repeat pill prescriptions without a smear test. Maybe the doctor can set it to refuse a renewal if the smear test hasn’t been done? Perhaps other posters can let us know?

      I’ve also noticed at my practice that there are no leaflets or even a mention of cervical screening, even on the well woman noticeboard in the waiting room, anymore.

      At the gyn department at the hospital, I have recently had to attend, one whole noticeboard had been covered in a ghastly bright pink promotional display for cervical screening. It looked like a load of pink vomit on the wall. Buried amongst it were the small words “Informed consent”, which annoyed me intensely, because once informed you may decide not to consent. Always they assume consent will be given. However, at my last appointment, this wall display was looking decidedly scrappy, with a lot of bits missing, and someone had changed this little notice to read “Informed choice”.

      Change is definitely in the air.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I’ve now sent a complaint to the Medical Ombudsman about that statement, “women on the Pill need pap tests”. We’ll see what they have to say…but I think we’re a long way behind the UK. A spokesman for the AMA said last year that he doubted many doctors would prescribe the pill without a current pap test on file. No one challenged that statement, basically a doctor still tying the Pill to elective cancer screening and I assume refusing the Pill if a woman exercised her legal right and declined the test. Coercion = no consent at all.
        No one, as far as I’m aware, (and I looked!) had a problem with this statement coming from the AMA. So hardly surprising GPs are happy to promote pap testing as a clinical requirement for the Pill. It seems some doctors are still treating women like second class citizens, while others are far more respectful. I also, doubt most of our doctors would share the opinion of the male doctor speaking for the AMA. I’ve heard from a few women who’ve faced pressure here, have been misled, but coercion is risky, if a woman complains, you’re in trouble, you cannot refuse the Pill simply because a woman chooses not to have elective cancer screening.
        My GP does not have breast or cervical screening brochures in her waiting room, they were removed many years ago.

  8. Elizabeth (Aust) says:


    Women here are apparently waiting for the new program to start in 2016, so we’re being told we’re risking our lives “avoiding” 2 yearly pap testing.
    Honestly, the lies will continue, it doesn’t take much research to find 2 yearly pap testing just fills up day procedure, I suppose they want to “treat” as many as possible before the program is changed. They’re still likely to do well under our new program, lots of young women will still be referred, biopsied and “treated”.
    Who could ever trust these programs? They promote what they KNOW is BAD medical advice, that can only end up harming and worrying a lot of women.
    Needless to say, you can’t leave a comment.
    Thankfully, many women will now see straight through this self-serving nonsense, they can no longer assume we’re all trusting and sensitive to their “warnings”, we’re no longer putty in their hands. More of us know exactly what’s going on….

    • Alex says:

      So, somoene actually says that they doubt that a doctor would prescribe this without having this exam on file- yet, if someone were to say: “I doubt any doctor would prescribe this without trying to coerce women into all kinds of invasive tests,” that’s someone misrepresenting them? Ever notice how they play victim all the damn time, too? I guess they DO feel persecuted for the shit they do.

      Cops do the same shit. Actually, I remember an article where a cop was basically saying “You know, people don’t trust us but doctors kill WAY more people than we do.” He’s probably right, but they both play all kinds of “woe is me” shit when THEY do something.

      Another thing is that they always claim massive amounts of expertise, yet nothing is their fault when it doesn’t go right. What is everybody supposed to be? Dupes? They have all kinds of knowledge one minute, then they didn’t give bad information when it works out as a fucking catastrophe?!

    • adawells says:

      This is so typical of tabloid news stories. So women are “confused” are they? Sounds to me like Aussie women are better informed than this reporter is about screening and the press are the ones who are confused. They write about how this woman’s cancer was picked up by the pap test, when the woman’s doctor says it was a good job, she didn’t wait for her pap test or she would be dead. So in other words it wasn’t the pap test at all which found her cancer. Her case completely contradicts the news story.

      This happens all the time and makes me so angry. Some people develop rare agressive forms of cancer, which no amount of screening would have found, but they then go on a moral crusade, often getting lucrative contracts with the tabloid press to promote a screening test, which is nothing to do with their type of cancer. The breast cancer charity Coppafeel is the breast equivalent of Jo’s Cervical Trust, and targets the under 30’s petrifying them with terrifying stories of extremely rare cases. It’s disgusting that young women are targeted in this way.

    • Moo says:

      There is a link to another headline “urine test for cervical cancer” but it is a urine test for HPV. Having an HPV infection is not the same as having cancer.

    • Moo says:

      The article quotes a doctor saying that women find Pap tests intrusive but they go for bikini waxes every 6 weeks. Sorry no comparison. and anyway I have never had anyone wax my bikini line.

    • adawells says:

      This item came out 3 days ago, and Julia Brotherton seems to be saying that Aussie women can take the vaginal swab themselves in 2016. Am I reading this correctly?


      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I read that piece too Ada, if that’s the case they’ve kept it very quiet. I suspect they’ll do everything to pressure women into the program, and self-testing options will only be offered as a last resort for very “hard-to-reach” women.
        Of course, I’m not interested in testing at all, so they can “offer” what they like, no deal.
        I doubt my doctor will even mention self-testing to me. She knows if I’d wanted to self-test, I’d have done so years ago. I work in Singapore now and then and the Screener has been available there for a few years now.
        The problem here is they point blank refuse to view screening as a choice for women, I’m sure we’ll see the argument, what objection could you have to self-testing?
        Note if a woman tests HPV+ here (and we’ll be testing women from 25, so lots will test HPV+) they’ll be pressured to have a colposcopy and biopsy, when all they should be offered is a 5 yearly pap test. (until they clear the virus)
        I think we should always view screening in a broad way, not as a test, but as the possible beginning of a cascade of further testing, biopsies or treatments or even being over-diagnosed and facing unnecessary chemo, radiation etc.
        It is never a simple, life-saving test, it can be the start of an absolute nightmare and may even take your life.

      • adawells says:

        Clearly, there are going to be major overhauls to cervical screening in 2016 by a number of countries, but we’ve had very little news about any changes planned for the UK system. We have a general election coming up next May, and I think this is part of the reason. There was a good article from the Metro newspaper about the urine test for HPV. I’ve been trying to find a link, but I can’t find the article online. It was a good article, because it was honest that the invasive test was unacceptable to women, and there was no propaganda input from the cancer charities saying it’s quick and painless and could save your life, etc. I am sure the UK is keeping things under wraps, because knowing something better was on the horizon, would cause the present programme to collapse.

    • Ozphoenix says:

      HI Elizabeth!

      I saw that article as well. I sent the writer, Amy, the following email, but of course, as usual, there has been no reply. They’re always eager to ‘tut, tut’ about women missing pap smears, but present them with real facts and first-hand information, and the silence is all too familiar.

      “Hi Amy,

      Your article on pap smears is very interesting. I’m a woman who has weighed up the facts and figures and decided not to have pap smears. Do you realise that women have the right to choose NOT to have a pap smear? That they do not need to have ‘excuses’ not to? I am not participating in a screening program which is searching for a rare cancer, using an inaccurate – and highly invasive – test.

      The line in your article says, ‘Ninety per cent of women diagnosed with cervical cancer have not had regular pap tests’. That is a regular and highly false ‘fact’ rolled out by screening authorities and cancer organisations, and is definitely not true!

      The other side of the coin is that women who DO have regular pap smears CAN and DO die from cervical cancer regardless (at least fifty per cent of them!), because the test cannot detect all forms of cervical cancer (such as adenocarcinoma, the common type), particularly when it is too far inside the cervical canal to be ‘brushed’ for a pap smear, or is not of the correct type to be easily picked up.

      I am angry because women are being lied to. They are being given little or no scientific information about pap smears, only pap smear propaganda to co-erce them to screen. Women think that cervical cancer is incredibly common, and that we might drop dead in the street if we don’t get pap smears! It is incredbly rare – not comon at all!

      As an ex-government biologist (B.Sc. Bio. and Ass.Dip Bio Techniques) who knows an awful lot about the whys-and-what-for’s of the pap smear regime, I am disgusted at how women are led around by their nose by articles such as yours, by organisations, Papscreen, the Cancer Council, and the government. Cervical cancer screening via pap smears has never met the full requirements of a national screening program; the requirements being-

      1. Is the problem common? No, cervical cancer occurs in less than 0.72% of the total population. That’s approx. 500 to 700 women in Australia per year. More women die from brain tumors in australia (600 to 800) than from cervical cancer, yet doctors scoff when we worry about brain tumors, telling us they are too rare to worry about.

      2. Is the test reliable? No, the pap smear is highly inaccurate, which is why doctors recommend testing at two yearly intervals, in case they miss it the first time! Most studies give accuracy figures of less than 50%. The CSA blood test (Cervical Specific Antigen) has a reported accuracy of over 90%, yet we’re still forcing women to chuck their underpants and spread their legs for a highly invasive, inaccurate and humiliating test because the AMA and Australian Government refuse to seriously consider the use of the CSA test. Pap smears have a high false positive rate – at least one in three abnormal smears (most often in younger women) are false positives! It is also know that the pathological labs are ‘pushed’ into upping their ‘abnormal smear’ return rate. In other words, they are looking to declare as many smears as possible as suspect because of financial and government pressure, leading to colposcopy, biopsy and cervical damage.

      3. Is the test easily accepted by most of the targeted population? Not really. Telling a woman to remove her pants and allow a stranger to sit between her spread open legs and forcibly and painfully spread open her private parts is not in ANY way acceptable.

      4. Is it low cost? On this one, financially yes, but the physical and mental cost is far too high.

      5. Can it be applied without using specialist equipment? Another yes. Any doctors surgery can do it.

      6. Is there a financial incentive? YES. Doctors do NOT disclose their financial interest in getting women to have pap smears. Under the PIP (Pap smear Incentive Program) doctors recieve bonuses to test women regularly, and they receive an even higher bonus if they get a woman to screen if she hasn’t had a test for the last five years. Conflict of interest, much?

      Why am I writing all of this? Because I have come across so many women – including myelf – who have been ridiculed, physically abused, threatened, ignored, denied medical treatment, had their cervix mutilated beyond normal correct function when there was nothing wrong with them and it was justified as ‘just in case’, left psychologically damaged, and carried feelings similar to having been raped all over the subject of doctors and their weapon of choice in womens healthcare – the pap smear.

      And yet, the pap smear war machine rolls on….


      • adawells says:

        An excellent letter. Thank you so much for posting this. It is wonderful news that so many Aussie women are making their feelings felt and are steering clear of screening.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        OzPhoenix, you write very well, your words are music to my ears. I love to meet informed woman and you’re Australian as well. I have to say I sometimes despair, so many of our women just accept the screening “story”. Critical discussion is non-existent here, we’re a long way behind the UK, The Netherlands, Finland etc.
        Can you imagine one of our female GPs publicly stating she doesn’t have pap tests or mammograms? What?? She’d be torn to shreds.
        Well, the Scottish GP and advocate for informed consent, Dr Margaret McCartney, did just that…amazing.

        Why is it so shocking for women to speak honestly about this subject? Why are we viewed as a herd to be screened at any cost, rather than individuals with the legal right to real information and informed consent, and that includes a No, thank you to pap testing and mammograms. (with no need for further explanation, no “excuses” necessary)

        It speaks volumes for me, if this test is so great, why the sensitivity, the secrecy, the pressure, hysteria, deception and unethical and illegal tactics to get us screened? Why is there no respect for informed consent?
        IMO, they KNEW this program could not work IF they respected informed consent, too many women would say No…and then they found even consent itself got in the way, so they ditched that as well, and tied the test to the Pill, pre-natal care and introduced target payments. I consider this medical abuse, not cancer screening.

        Is this really the way the medical profession and others treat women? Hard to believe, but yes, it is.
        Welcome to the forum, keep stirring the pot…more and more women are starting to listen, let’s face it for decades there was silence when it came to critical discussion or even honest life experience that cast pap testing in a poor light. I think these programs must be worried, more and more women are onto them, they can stop us commenting on their sites, but they can’t silence us anymore.

      • F.L. says:


        Wow – what a great letter! It’s wonderful to see such a concise, clear, and accurate dissection of the propaganda/misinformation campaign. I wish I could write something that does even half as good a job of putting facts out there to counter the myths.

        I agree the financial cost appears relatively inexpensive, but perhaps there is an argument to be made that:
        * the cost per/person needs to be multiplied by the continued overuse of the test x amount of physician billing fee/test (+ incentives) x number of false positives leading to additional/more expensive testing x physician costs associated with these tests = ridiculous amount of money spent
        * the cost/person might be much less if self-test options were made available
        * the costs should include a cost-benefit analysis that factored in the harm-related costs of direct negative impacts from using this inaccurate test on women as well as the indirect costs to the effectiveness/efficiency of the health care system that spends so much physician time/money on this that it lacks resources to take on more common and treatable health care concerns.

        Anyway, as you say, regardless of the financial cost, the mental and physical costs are far too high. Your letter was just awesome and I’m not surprised there was no reply or rebuttal – what could Amy say in the face of the facts?

  9. Kai says:

    Was just thinking that you should make a Tumblr. I have trouble finding any skepticism of the gynecological field to reblog, only “omigod that hurt and was humiliating BUT gotta do it again next year”. Tumblr has a massive audience that needs to be reached. Dx

    • Alex says:

      I don’t get something: Why is it that women are able to think in terms of whether or not they’ll get married or have kids, but think “need/must/have to” when it comes to problematic things with doctors? It doesn’t only have to be things that are against the grain on a sexual dissonance level, it could be because of pain or low utility- it could simply be not being conducted by someone else.

      I don’t get that. I’ve been told that women are usually raised differently than men & are more or less taught “not to make waves,” but what sense is that? She’s not making waves in order to NOT have problems- it’s like pouring gas on a fire in order to make it smaller. Isn’t it women that generally point those things out? I don’t get why a woman is down-trodden if she cooks, cleans, or does any of the other “traditional” things that women would do, but it’s somehow mature & sophisticated for her to be of the mind that other people make their own decisions about what goes in where on her.

      • bethkz says:

        You’re right Alex. It makes no sense whatsoever that women somehow think they’re modern, liberated, and sophisticated to give over the decision over what or who goes in here or when on her, while they think that it’s demeaning and old-fashioned to allow someone else who they chose to put in that position to make the decisions over how or where she lives, where she can go or how she can go there, what she can buy, how money he makes will be spent. The very same people are for marital rape laws – where this person who is making all of the rules cannot decide FOR HER when or how to penetrate her as are the ones demanding their “right” to have “women’s health”, where their doctor is deciding for her when or how to penetrate her.

        Either a women has the final decision over what or who goes into her body or she does not.


      • Moo says:

        Most girls are taught not to look down there or to “touch themselves”. The proper names for body parts are not taught to them just bum and “bum front” or ” dink” or “cookie”. Maybe more liberal parents taught them “vagina” but not any other part’s name.

        Why do other women say “ehhh, gross” when I suggest that they purchase a speculum, get a flashlight and mirror and some vinegar and look at their own cervix. I even found a link for a speculum camera that hooks up to for closed circuit tv for vagina/cervix viewing. It could be that medications and simple treatments be made available for women to use at home in privacy as well as for testing kits.

        There is no reason why everything done there be viewed by “professionals only”. I find from hair removal to child rearing everything is promoted as needing a professional to take care of it. The more professional we involve in our lives the costs are high to our bank accounts and privacy.

        Marketing exploits people’s needs and often creates a needs when technology or a product is available. What role should marketing play in the medical field?

      • Kai says:

        I’d rather it not be viewed by anyone, including myself. The “real” terms for things make me gag. They’re too stuffy, reminiscent of that abstinence class we had every year at my school. Humanity could’ve thought up better names for our body parts. I can’t even bring myself to say “vagina” out loud without feeling like a prude, only “vag”, and I NEVER say “penis”, “anus”, or “testes”. Dx I don’t even like typing them out.

      • Kai says:

        I have no clue. I personally enjoy those “traditional” tasks; sewing, cooking (not so much cleaning), sewing, gardening, soapmaking, and friggin basket weaving all soothe me. But I also do 160 each pushups and situps a day and I will be damned if any man, woman, or “authority” figure tells me what to do or not do to my body. “Oh but you NEED to be violated by a medical beast in rubber gloves or you’ll die from a relatively rare form of cancer that I should know by now that you wouldn’t seek treatment for anyways because you don’t believe in manmade medicine. It’s selfish if you don’t because people don’t want you to die but it’s not selfish of them to look down on your beliefs.” One of my friends thinks mammograms, pelvic exams, prostate exams, and colonoscopies should be required by law. We aren’t talking much lately.

      • Cat&Mouse says:


        There’s one place where doctors feel they have the right, and by law they do. It’s the delivery room. The instant a woman or parents-immediately-to-be question a decision, they have the rug ripped out below. The husband is made to leave. Automatic report to CPS. Baby won’t go home. Then lesbian social workers who view every family as malignant. Lawyers, foster care “erring for the child,” divorce, bankruptcy. A family dependent on the system. Unfortunately, at that moment women are full of oxytocin, and that makes us compliant and wanting to stop conflict so we can soothe and nurture our babies. Leave it to do-gooding doctors and nurses to ruin it for both parents. And the law encourages it. We’ve all read here how a woman refusing paps finds herself, father too, in this situation and worse.

      • bethkz says:

        There are no laws that require that all babies be born in the hospital, nor can there be. Women don’t always get to hospitals in time – labor goes faster than they think. Lots of kids are named after the cab driver who delivered them. :)

        Certified Nurse Midwives are legal in all 50 US States, and all nations in the EU have “Midwife Corps” that deliver most babies at home. Certified Nurse Midwives give prenatal care, delivery, and postnatal care – which can include things like help with breastfeeding issues. Midwives consistently show lower maternal and infant mortality rates.

        Birth certificates can be issued without a hospital involved. So can birth announcements be taken by newspapers by individuals.

        There are no laws requiring paps for pregnant women. Anyone who tries to tell you that there are is BSing you. For one thing, even the manufacturers of those products used state that they have high numbers of false positives in pregnant women. Pap testing has been associated with miscarriage.

        Sure, medical professionals can call CPS. There is no reason for it, and CPS is catching on. If they remove the child for the ONLY reason being that he or she was born at home without an obstetrician, with no other evidence for abuse or neglect, the parent has grounds for a HUGE lawsuit.

        Medical people like to use the laws as they are NOT written, and threats of various sorts of legal actions in order to get their way. Most of their claims are devoid of facts.

      • Alex says:

        Cat & Mouse: Honestly, whether or not she’d have the baby naturally is a big concern for me as far as prospective wives or girlfriends go. These reasons are big parts of it. There’s a million things that can make the kid deformed or retarded (or both), that can give her injuries or infections (or both), and any or all of this can be from something that was against her objections or from objectionable situations.

        I remember an article I was reading about a woman that had a QUADRUPLE AMPUTATION because she caught something in the hospital (don’t remember exactly what it was, but it was something that people get from being in the hospital pretty frequently- some type of strep or staph infection). She was in the hosptial to deliver a baby, they wanted her to stay an extra 12 days or so, then she came down with this & wouldn’t tell her how it happened!

        Sounds to me like they were trying to cover their ass- maybe it would be interesting to know for a lot of women & the men they’re with that infections can be introduced by all kinds of procedures & that plenty of them are worthless, anyway. Maybe checking dialation (which doesn’t actually mean when the baby’s coming- it’s just bullshit that made it’s way into tradition that they don’t want to change) introduced bacteria into her system? Maybe they decided to start slicing & there was a problem from this?

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Bethkz, Alex,

        If I had my choice, I’d do water birth. Incidentally, it’s also the one method that doctors hate most, and that offers women the best chance at a natural birth.

        This year in PA USA there was a couple who had their baby at home this way. Days later they decided to have the infant checked out. Their mistake was going to an ER. Quickly, they were isolated away, and the mother was not allowed to nurse the screaming baby. Staff refused to provide the papers for a birth certificate. Then an ambulance called to transport the baby to a children’s hospital. Many hours later, they got home. Then the bills came in. $3,200 for the ambulance alone. Then CPS comes knocking. The SW threatened additional actions if she wasn’t allowed in. Her cause for concern? That non-appropriate birthing was performed and that the kid was at additional risk… Another case; of delivery room staff gone berserk. Calling CPS when mother refused to automatically sign over permission at admission allowing c-section. Doctors felt they weren’t fit parents. The baby was held from going home until CPS ran the parents through the system.

        Sure, both parties had excellent cause for suing CPS and the hospital. However, reporting parties are immune from civil suit. And up front attorney’s fees of $500 per hour on new parents?

        Regarding hospital infections. Like Joan Rivers dying due to a mistake, you’re exactly right how infections get going. Staff cuts and lousy cleaning regimens. Dirty doorknobs. Poor hand washing. I think I wrote here of my hubby’s hernia operation. He was sedated but not out. The nurses came back from lunch and removed his gown to shave etc. Only we did all that at home, and cleaned everything using Hibiclens. Can’t believe the nurses didn’t notice that right away.

        He says one took out a razor anyway, and proceeded to drop it twice. The first time it hit the tray, she just picked it up and kept going. The second it bounced around onto the floor. The nurse joked about the three second rule and picked it up to reuse anyway. When we’re unconscious, God only knows what happens and what we get infected with.

      • bethkz says:

        Certified nurse midwives are legal in all 50 US States. Most other civilized countries have midwife corps, which deliver most babies, since hospitals are rarely needed in connection with childbirth, and in and of themselves pose risks to mother and baby. Also, there are always births which end up being without medical personel present – often by error in timing, inability to transport, or the rare case where women painlessly give birth in their sleep.

        All States, and I don’t know the law of other countries, require that silver nitrate drops be put into the baby’s eyes after birth – and there’s a timeframe in which that is required. Failing to do that MIGHT run you afoul of CPS, but it does NOT have to be done in a hospital. It can be done by a health department nurse or any physician.

        Births are required to be registered within a period of time. It is NOT the hospital’s responsibility to file this paperwork on a birth that they did not oversee. If they did, it would be them making false official statements. That is done by county and state bureaucrats, and someone who was present at (or near) the time of birth, who has actual information, makes out the paperwork in a county office. They may have some problems with it, since most of them are done by hospitals, who make out the paperwork and deliver it in batches to the county. You might have to push them, but it will be done.

        Babies can be checked out by doctors or other medical personnel outside of hospitals. As it’s NOT a medical emergency, that is not an appropriate use for medical services. If someone has a problem with a newborn baby which requires emergency services days after it’s born, there may BE a problem with medical neglect. In emergency departments, they’re going to be on the lookout for it, and are more likely to suspect something than if someone goes in to an appointment or a walk-in clinic.

        Medical personnel are infamous for making false threats that have no basis in reality. While they cannot be sued civilly for making a false claim, making false official statements is a federal crime which includes prison time. Most of these statements are not an error in judgement, but are knowingly false.

        New parents might have a stretch in hiring a lawyer, but as making false official statements is a CRIME, those are prosecuted by prosecutors on the State payroll. If they want a civil suit too, most of the attorneys that pursue civil suits do it on contingency – there is nothing owed until and unless they get a settlement. The amount/percentage the attorneys take is often quite substantial, but that’s a different problem.

        Assault is assault is assault. It doesn’t change just because the woman is pregnant or in labor – although it might become an aggravating factor, and if injury occurs to the foetus, the baby may be a second victim after its born. A doctor going after a pregnant woman with a knife with her screaming, “No No No” is not different than a robber or other criminal going after her with a knife – it’s assault with a deadly weapon.

        Another avenue is to turn birth-rape or assaults or false official statements surrounding a birth over to an investigative reporter at a TV station or newspaper. Then, the rules, laws, and practices will be brought before the public. If it’s obviously wrong, the public will demand that things be changed.

        I learned some time ago that (I) get nowhere trying to convince the medical industry or their employees that something is just wrong. Object, refuse, don’t even deal with them. If something goes wrong, use the other avenues which are available – including the legal system and bring it to public notice.

    • Alex says:

      Kai: You do 160 push-ups & 160 sit-ups a day?! Wow. That’s impressive. I might suggest increasing the intensity, but decreasing the number. You know why? It’s because adding reps at the same intensity will only give you DISTANCE at that level. If you add intensity, you get that distance (because the lighter stuff is easier), and joint solidity (hugely important for not falling apart as you get older, but also for wrestling & fighting- because these things come up unexpectedly). You won’t get all big & Vin Diesel-looking, because women don’t have as much testosterone & she won’t

      You want to know about something? There’s a series of books by Paul Wade (the Convict Conditioning series- I know, it’s a gimicky title, but “Progressive Calisthenics” doesn’t sound as good & he DID supposedly learn all this in prison). AWESOME! C-Mass is actually more for guys, but it mentions a bunch of things about bio-mechanics & such. If you go on Dragondoor.com, you’ll notice quite a bit about it in the forum & there’s a new one coming out in 2015 (about January, I think).

      There’s also the Systema Manual, but I don’t have that yet. If you look up Systema & Systema exercises, you’ll probably get a good idea of what the book gets into. I’ve noticed that that art hits the “diagonal strength” as well as the regular stuff (all the in-between things that don’t always get hit, but do tend to get injured). It also gets into how to use it (styles of breathing to not get tired, coordination, smoothly going from one thing to another, etc…) . It’s interesting, but hard for me to explain & I don’t actually have the book in my hands (I’m waiting until they come out with the new DVD in October on how to deal with Mass Attacks & such- keep in mind that the DVDs are good, but give more of a summary than an A-Z).

      I know this is MASSIVELY off-topic from what’s usually talked about on this site, but I figured you’d be interested. I’d definitely take less time & wouldn’t be as tedious as I remember 100+ of anything being. You’d also be able to knock a lot of this out without equipment, a major plus.

  10. Ro says:

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=dQXYXY5GCi4 Someone suggested that I watch this, and I haven’t made it all the way through yet as I’m personally not one to spend a long time in front of the computer. That being said, so far, this is a great documentary about yet another safe and effective cancer treatment being battled by the medical industry and covered up. If you’re interested in this sort of thing or just want to become more informed, I definitely recommend watching it.

  11. Ro says:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/24/state-farm-drops-rob-schneider-over-anti-vaccine-v/ And so it continues. Anyone who goes against the grain will lose their job if they have any sort of interaction with the public. So much for free speech and all that, right?

    (Also, a side note for Sue: for some reason, two of my comments from September 3rd seem to keep jumping down to the end of the discussion forum for some reason. Would you mind deleting them? As I’m sure it’s aggravating for not only me, but everyone else who comments.)

    • Thanks for the link Ro. Regardless of one’s own stance on vaccines it affects us all when freedom of speech is taken away. You might already know about this Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/My-childs-vaccine-reaction/372638272814622 and this one: https://www.facebook.com/pages/SANEVAX/139881632707155 I wonder why no correlational studies have been done between vaccinated and non-vaccinated children, as it seems it would be fairly straightforward and would probably help to put some minds at rest.
      I deleted your two comments from Sept. 3rd. I have no idea why they were jumping down, thanks for the heads up.

      • Ro says:

        Thank you for sharing those links! I had never come across those sites before, and there was a lot of really great information. It is interesting that no correlation studies have been done, but if I remember correctly, apparently the pharmaceutical companies have some sort of protection act in place for vaccination manufacturers. Still, that would only ensure that the parties involved wouldn’t have legal action taken against them. It would not protect them from a study being done to find the true cause. However, vaccinations seem to be a big money maker. So as long as someone’s pockets are being lined, I’m doubtful that the truth will come out.

  12. IMustBeSurrounded says:

    Ok – now I am getting thoroughly annoyed.

    A few weeks ago on a Friday night at 6:45, I was at the bar with my boyfriend. We were finally getting relaxed after a long week at work. My boyfriend stepped out to take a call – and then my phone rang. It was a number I didn’t recognize, so I let it go to voicemail. Since my bf wasn’t back yet, I decided to check the message.

    It was a long-winded message from my Health Insurance Company telling me about the importance of “Pap Screening” and “Well Woman Exams.” Since then – I’ve received two post cards in the mail with the same messages on them. Barf.

    When he came back in, I threw my phone down so it skidded across the bar and I go “You won’t BELIEVE THE VOICE MAIL I JUST GOT!” I then, ordered another tequila.

    I also blocked their number.

    It’s interesting to me that the American Insurance Companies are so vested in these Well Woman exams. I am assuming it’s because of the belief (not that I share this belief) that early testing saves lives and therefore will save them money in the future. But is that really the motivation? Does anyone else know why the Insurance Company would be so interested in my cervix (and the cervix of every other woman under their care?)

    They, after all, would have to foot the bills (or a portion of them) for testing, follow ups, “treatment” etc.

    If you have any thoughts or info on this – it would be appreciated!

    I also wonder how far this harassment will go. Will they threaten to drop me unless I spread my legs? Can they? I would imagine not – but I am also not in the mood for an argument.

    Thanks so much! I look at these boards every day – I just don’t get the opportunity to post as much as I like, but I admire all of you.

    Have a great weekend.

    • bethkz says:

      Depending on what is on those post cards, it could well violate the HIPPA laws. A post card is not private mail. It is public in that it is readable by anyone who looks at that post card. If they are putting ANY identifiable information about you, any (potential/presumed) health information on that card – even that you have failed to have a PAP test within some period of time, they have broken the law. You can have them prosecuted, and possibly sue for damages.

  13. IMustBeSurrounded says:

    HMMM Something interesting I found – a woman went to get the Well Woman Exam and had to sign a form – and an interesting tidbit on the form said…(oh, btw – this is under the new ACA/Obamacare rules)

    “If a problem such as a breast lump is found at your ‘annual exam’, the exam is no longer considered by the AMA guidelines as an annual exam.” Such an instance would constitute a “problem visit[s] and will be coded accordingly.”

    Also, if a woman asks questions during her Well Woman exam – the exam could also turn into a “Problem Visit” and be coded differently – she would therefore get billed for an exam that is supposed to be free.

    Don’t quote me on this – but if you go in for your exam, and the doctor finds something suspicious, then the “free” well woman exam is negated and she therefore pays a good chunk of change because they found something they wouldn’t have found otherwise. Therefore, the “free” exam to help her “detect things early” is already costing money. How many times are things found that turn out to be “nothing” or totally benign?

    AND forget asking questions during the exam – the cash register will start to ring again!
    I could be wrong on this – so please don’t quote me and please ask for clarification if you do go to the doctors.

    But wow -if I am understanding this correctly…I am really shaking my head.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Thinking back, I remember how Democrats like Pelosi, Boxer, Feinstein all demanded ObamaCare be approved before any review & discussion of whatever it was occurred. Many tries died printing the stacks this bill represents. Many miscreants thought free boob jobs would soon be coming down the line. Then reality hit.

      Doctors refused to sign up on the plan. Deductibles of $8-10,000 cash up front would have to be paid before any plan benefits would kick in. No doctor wants that robbery bait in their office, and no patient on ObummerCare has the cash to get the care. Bait and switch. Lies.

      What you found does not surprise me in the least. Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, this will not make the evening network news, nor any magazine like Time as USA’s media is totally entrenched supporting this platform. Another juicy tidbit, 70% of illegal aliens Obama encouraged to jump the fence have avoided reporting to the government. There’s a terrible new upper respiratory virus going around which originates from South America. This is nothing like the refugees USA took in from Vietnam and other places that want to be American. Instead, where I live one can find signs saying “Aztlan” which represents the name illegals will call the desert SouthWest USA states after they take it back.

      It would be one thing if my current government was truthful in its representation and dealmaking. But for 8 yrs now, it’s one new nauseating revelation after another. We are seeing USA go through profound changes, and none of them are good. The Isaiah Harbinger comes to mind.

      In an earlier message, I talked about the gynecological tests & treatments I’ve had. No informed consent, no alternatives, just rushed through on fear of a painful death. Retrospectively, so much pain I’ve endured, fear I’ve felt, and arguments about what to do next. I feel betrayed. Thank God for this sight, that I can do something so others may not have to follow in my footsteps.

    • Moo says:

      This article might explain the difference in billing and why the push is for paps and breast exams. The well woman exam is different from another type of physical exam.


  14. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    That’s why these sites are viewed as a real threat, not only can you access real information, this site is full of survivors of medical abuse, this group of women have been shoved into the background…..until now. This huge group is not good for business.
    This sort of site is still rare, almost all sites are propaganda based, full of “if not for that pap test I’d be dead” stories or “every woman in my family has had cervical cancer”…I consider these sites an insult to our intelligence. The scary wolf story is still the preferred way to sell screening to women.

    The Blogcritics thread disappeared, we were reassured it would return, still nothing. I now believe they were pressured to close the thread, or rewarded for doing so, or threatened, perhaps, warned the site was dangerous and might lead to deaths. We always hear those arguments…it says a lot, open and frank discussion on this subject is a major threat, it may inform women and we know what happens then, we can take control of our bodies and make informed healthcare/life decisions.
    We’ve always been “managed” as a herd, that doesn’t work when women are permitted to act as individuals, that triggers informed consent, as we know, this testing would fail if women were treated legally, respectfully and within proper ethical guidelines. Take away the propaganda, coercion, pressure, vested interests, targets…and these screening programs/wellness programs fall over. (that includes well woman exams and breast screening)

    • IMustBeSurrounded says:

      Thank you so much to Elizabeth and Cat and Mouse!

      Elizabeth – regarding these sites – you are so right.

      This leads me to the story of why I came here.

      A year and a half ago, I went to the doctor for this hideous looking skin tag (please excuse the TMI). I had no idea what it was, so I wanted to get it looked at.

      I go in, and the nurse who checks me in (notice the nurse or medical assistant who checks you in asks the same questions the doctor is going to ask 5 minutes later…what is that?) she goes “You haven’t had a pap since 1996 (or some year a long time ago)” I say “Uh…yeah I have” And this nurse seems frustrated and disgusted by my lack of pap. Me, thinking that these tests are still important take her frustration as somehow caring about my health (at the same time I did find her bitchy and distasteful)

      Then the nurse practitioner comes in. Before we EVER get to my skin tag – she goes “well, you’re not really a frequent flier here and you need to make an appointment to come back for your pap and breast exam and you know – all of that girly stuff” (ew) She then begins a litany of questions about my family history of cancer etc (which I dutifully answer)

      THEN – she cuts me a deal. She says “If you come back for your pap, I will remove the skin tag for free and any other ones too. If I do it today, I have to charge you” I agree to come back for the pap and free removal…but then I start to think…what is the big deal about the pap test?

      It was when I was in that very room (I don’t know where the nurse practitioner had gone – but she had left) that I googled “Unnecessary Pap Smears” on my Smart Phone…and the Blog critics site came up. I then proceeded to read all 10,000 comments (which took several weeks)

      A couple of days later – the skin tag fell off! I think ti was committing suicide after the ridiculous conversations it heard between myself and the nurse and nurse practitioner.

      A few weeks after that I get a bill for $200+ dollars! TO look at a SKIN TAG? Seriously? It turns out because of the litany of questions that the nurse practitioner asked me that the appointment got “coded up.” I found this out after asking a friend of mine who has been in medical billing and coding for a long time. I called the doctors office and had the code changed and saved about 100 bucks. That being said, 100 bucks is a lot of money to look at a skin tag that was going to jump to it’s death anyway.

      Fast forward – our health insurance changes and my doctor changes. I make an appointment to go in about a dark spot on my face (which also turned out to be nothing and disappeared after awhile) I have an appointment with another nurse practitioner. Being a new patient, I was willing to tolerate some health history and question asking.

      Well – what is the FIRST THING she asks me? “When was your last pap?” I say “2009” She says “Well, you are supposed to get it every three years” (yes, the phrase “Supposed to” was used) I looked at her and said “I am a low-risk woman who has made an informed decision not to get one” She said “Oh. Ok” I was blown away at how easy that was. She then says “Well you will want to make a yearly physical to get a breast exam etc” I didn’t argue that point…I am simply not going to make an appointment like that unless I suspect a problem.

      I would like to thank the women on boards like this that not only informed me – but let me know what to do in this situation.

      So – this moves me to what I should do next. I requested all of my medical records from my last doctor in hard copy. They were no problem to get. I had two abnormal paps and I am certain it’s because I had sex too close to the test! (Do you notice they never tell you not to do that too close to the test?) I had one colposcopy where they found nothing.

      On my digital records that I can access online it says the 2009 pap was abnormal – but I swear it was normal (so I am wondering if they don’t have the most current one there?)

      I like the idea of the self administered HPV test…but if I have HPV…what do I plan to do about it? The idea that the HPV could develop into cervical cancer seems like a rarity, based on my research. I have NO symptoms of cervical issues either.

      I am inclined to continue to decline tests (inclined to decline!) But any thoughts on this would be appreciated as well.

      WOW I am long winded today! Sorry – my apologies! It’s my first evening to myself in a LONG time!

      • bethkz says:

        I’m not sure what you CAN do at this point about the past so-called abnormal pap tests.

        This illustrates one danger of having these tests. If they come back abnormal – as 77% of women can expect to have happen at least once in her lifetime – the “fact” of your then being at “high risk” for cancer trumps every other health concern for which you may see a medical provider for the rest of your life! They will have an additional set of rhetoric to give you to pressure you into having another pap test.

        Such information will likely be put in databases such that it will be difficult or impossible to get certain other insurances – like life insurance, disability insurance, possibly turned down for a job for which you are otherwise qualified for. If you’re “noncompliant” with their “watch and wait” ideas on your potentially having cancer, as evidenced by the previously-positive pap tests, it goes even more against you.

        If somebody really wants to hound you, they can use your “noncompliance” on things which will certainly “save your life” as evidence to show that you’re depressed, (passively) suicidal, and somewhat unhinged and probably mentally ill – and certainly in need of hundreds of dollars per month in mental health drugs which have their own sets of life-threatening and violent side effects – and probably in need of some in-patient care – for which they will be paid handsomely.

        These are MORE risks of having these tests!

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        It’s interesting to hear what triggers women to look for answers or a safe place to vent, often it’s being sick to death of bullying tactics, after being coerced into testing or denied the Pill or non-emergency medical care because they declined a pap test. Also, after a bad pap test experience, an excess biopsy or “treatment”, being left with a damaged cervix and having a miscarriage or premature baby or simply working out the focus and hysteria about this cancer and testing makes no sense. I’ve heard them all over the years.
        Of course, the official discourse provides us with no real answers, that’s a deliberate strategy, we get a screening “story”. They know it’s much harder to fend off medical pressure when you don’t have access to real/balanced information, when choice/informed consent/consent is not respected for women.
        If women could access the information they need before this testing starts, I believe we’d have a lot more healthy and happy women. The damage caused to women by these programs is common, awful and mostly avoidable.

        I think you’re wise considering the consequences of a screening test at the very beginning, we’re told the pap test is easy, simple and reliable, oh, and life-saving, but they don’t tell us the cancer is rare and the test often leads to grief. So many women over-treated and left with permanent damage, both emotional and physical.
        The so-called simple CA-125 blood test for ovarian cancer is anything but, it’s highly unreliable and can lead to unnecessary surgery. No thanks.
        The invasiveness of the pap test and the fact almost all doctors were male in the late 70s prompted me to go looking for answers, what sort of risk was I taking rejecting this test? I fear if the test had been non-invasive, would I have been sucked into the pap testing abyss? Once you get that “abnormal” result the conveyer belt starts and at that point many women are scared to death…so it’s colposcopy, biopsy, perhaps, a “treatment” and then more pap testing etc.
        So I’m cautious with all screening tests. We should remember even self-testing options can lead to the same ugly and harmful places. Some people choose not to have a screening colonoscopy for bowel cancer, but might self-screen using the FOBT, IF however, the result is positive, the next step is the colonoscopy. So you have to really think about these tests at the outset.

        My advice: ask yourself: is this test in MY best interests? What happens if the test is abnormal? (or I’m HPV+ or blood is detected on the FOBT) These issues cut across all screening tests. What now?
        If we don’t have a clear plan in mind, fear and uncertainty may push us down the path to day procedure, surgery etc. So IMO, we should be “prepared” for negative test results IF we choose to have these tests and exams. Know what you’re accepting and where it can lead, it’s not an exaggeration to say that a simple screening test can end up taking your life. (for example: breast screening can lead to over-diagnosis, and over-treatment can lead to heart attacks and lung cancer)

        If a woman tests HPV+ here (under our new program) and there will be lots, about 40% of those who test aged 25 to 29, and about 5% of those aged 30 to 74, (we plan on HPV testing from age 25 when HPV testing should not be used before age 30) she’ll probably be referred for immediate colposcopy and biopsy.
        HPV self-testing may be viewed as a better option, but can still land us in the same place, HPV+, what now?
        So even HPV self-testing should only be used appropriately (the safest course IMO, is the new Dutch program, HPV primary or self testing at ages 30,35,40,50 and 60) and with a clear understanding of what you’ll do if you’re HPV+
        The Dutch will simply offer the roughly 5% of HPV+ women aged 30 to 60 a 5 yearly pap test. (until they clear the virus)

        The rest comes down to risk, how much risk, and type of risk, are you prepared to carry in your life or accept with testing? For me the risk of cc is so low, I’m simply not interested in accepting much risk at all to screen for a rare event, others may feel differently. (I’m also, confident I’m HPV-) I’ve never had a pap test and won’t be testing for HPV. (and I’m 56)
        Here the lifetime risk of cc is 0.65%, the lifetime risk of colposcopy/biopsy is 77%…I rest my case. Easy decision, and when you’re informed, the propaganda bounces off you. Fear, uncertainty and confusion often makes women screen AND keeps them in these programs.

        You’re right, most HPV+ women will simply clear the virus in a year or so, so only a small number of the 5% who test HPV+ between ages 30 to 60 would go on to develop invasive cervical cancer, but these are also, the women with a small chance of benefiting…so it depends on the individual and how comfortable they feel carrying risk…from the disease and testing.
        Certainly women worried about this rare cancer have an alternative to frequent pap testing and most will find they’re not even at risk and cannot benefit from pap testing. Those who want to test should at least establish their HPV status before agreeing to pap testing…and if they’re HPV+ avoid over-pap screening and being rushed into colposcopy and biopsy.
        If a woman is HPV+ and ALSO, produces an abnormal pap test, say CIN 2 or 3, then she can consider her options.
        The best approach IMO, is to think ahead, there is no such thing as a simple screening test. (aside from perhaps, blood pressure screening and even then, we have to be careful taking medication we may not need, that may produce side effects etc.)
        Don’t worry about being long winded, I take 1st prize every time, especially when we’re talking about these subjects.

  15. Alex says:

    I was just wondering something: I know women are generally more conflict-averse than men, but doesn;t getting hounded like this come off as threatening? I’d think it’d be like a guy getting very bossy on the street. Kind of a “Hey, you’re coming with me” type of thing that isn’t meant as a joke or flirtation.

    I mean it gets to the point where someone DOES actually have to worry about them trying to work their will through whatever agencies they decide to call up & connect the dots to. I could see them trying to take someone’s kids away if those kids having had all kinds of probing done- they deem anything & everything an unsafe environment, so I’d imagine the doctor trying this angle, then getting shut down & calling for help.

    Have to say: That kind of base-minded style of thinking (that they’re trying to exert themselves & someone else blocks it- so now they’re all offended in some weird primal way, like a fake life-or-death concern) is something that is the same as a drunken rage or an egotistical nutjob with a gun. It doesn’t matter if every fiber of someone’s being is behind them trying to start shit with other people, they’re still of low-quality & are an enemy for it.

    At the end of the day, there’s no way to say something so that you can “prove” righteousness or not. This is because there’s no way to say anything so that somebody else can’t lie or twist your words & at some point language has to connect to something. Ultimately, someone can just say “I know it’s a problem, but I like problems” or just engage in an action without saying anything. I’ve developed a saying: “Fucked-up shit grows BEETER in the darkness- but it’ll grow in the light, too.”

  16. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    ” I am married, twenty years old, and a graduate student. I go to the student health center for my annual exam. As I walk up to the door and place my hand on the handle, I feel this intense, visceral reaction in my body of wanting to run away. For a few moments, I can’t open the door, instead I think only of fleeing. The thought comes to me: I’m going in here to volunteer to be assaulted. Having to undergo a routine pelvic exam and pap smear as a condition of having access to birth control pills feels like a routine humiliation, like a ritual of physical invasion and “punishment” designed to shame young women who dare to have sex.

    This is MY BODY.”

    Found this powerful account…I wonder how many women feel this way, but suppress or dismiss these feelings because we’ve been told we MUST find invasive exams and testing acceptable, it’s important for our health. If we don’t agree, we’re immature etc, there is something wrong with us.
    I think we should listen to our bodies.


    • Another great article, thanks Elizabeth! She certainly wrote that in a hit-the-nail-on-the-head kind of way. Brought back some awful memories . . .

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Sue, with all the articles making clear pap tests, breast and pelvic exams are unnecessary for the Pill, do you think more American women are becoming aware? Surely more of your doctors are ditching these requirements. I would have thought a doctor being challenged would struggle to justify these exams and test. I wonder if more American women are pushing back and even though it’s more difficult, trying to find a doctor who doesn’t use coercion to force excess.
        If woman say nothing and suffer in silence, then I’m sure many doctors will stay with excess/coercion, I wonder if it’s now a question of business as usual with some woman and accepting the evidence/change with informed women, the Pill with a blood pressure check.

      • Elizabeth, it does seem that way. It’s frustrating to see the backlash in response to the American College of Physician’s recommendation to ditch pelvic exams in asymptomatic women. The ongoing ‘debate’ continues. Of course the ob-gyns (and other doctors) are defending the practice, claiming they ‘care’ about women so they will continue to ‘protect’ them. Probably many women still put the ultimate authority in their doctors hands, willing to follow their recommendations. Some probably believe their doctor is caring because he or she is willing to go to the extra effort and expense. As for the doctors, they seem to have grouped together to problem solve their way through this one. The doctors who follow the evidence may even be reprimanded in some way, it’s hard to know what’s going on behind the scenes.

        I remember reading an article (can’t remember the title) that compared priests to doctors. The author claimed you would never be able to change the behavior of the priests, no matter how wrong they were or how much you disagreed with them. The priests would never change. Your only, and best, course of action was to leave the church. It seems some women have done just that by refusing to go to doctors.

        The pill dilemma though is another matter. They have women over a barrel with that one. I wonder how the online bc pill business is doing. I also wonder why there have been no lawsuits in relation to lack of informed consent or to harms of misdiagnosis. A cervix damaged for no reason should be worth something.

      • Ro says:

        Elizabeth – I do think American women are becoming more aware. I was minding my business going to the grocery store a few weeks ago, and lo and behold there was a billboard advertising pap tests and an office where you could get one done. Also there was something tagged on about having STDs and not knowing it because there are no symptoms. The typical stuff. But I think the fact that they’ve resorted to buying out billboards to advertise proves that they’re really having to reach these days. Also, I had a thought when I drove past it again the other day. What if a child has just learned to read and asks their parents what an STD means? I learned to read when I was 4, and as you can imagine, I was very curious. Had I seen the billboard at that age, I know I would have asked my parents what it meant. I really do not think that sort of thing is appropriate to have out where children can read it, but that’s just my opinion.

  17. Alex says:

    Just had some thoughts I’d like to share that might be useful in countering mind games. It’s a bit long (two minutes of talking amounts to A LOT of typing), but I think it’s a pervasive thing that is somewhat rarely addressed. Keep in mind that there’s no way to say anything so that someone else can’t lie or twist your words on their own, because a lot of this can be flipped in an argument.

    We’ve talked about this one before, but it’d be easier to refernce one thing to help explain another:
    You know how sometimes people present things as a fixed situation? Like there exists no capacity for reality to “unfurl” any other way & saying things like what they “will” be doing or what someone else is “going” to be having?

    Well, this tactic more or less entirely relies on people presuming honesty & accuracy out of other people. Not in a deduced “I trust what comes from them” kind of way, but more in the sense of someone looking at their watch & you believing it’s what time they say it is. This isn’t even usually a bad thing, since it IS fairly bizarre for someone to randomly lie like that. However, sometimes people take advantage of the situation (and usually act very innocent or even like they’re helping someone “get sharper”). in this case, the way that they phrase something implies that there exists no capacity for the situation to develop any other way- because the conditions would have to be this way to provide this result. I guess this could be called “implicit reasoning.”

    Here’s what I was thinking about:
    I figure that the same things occur with someone saying “need,” must,” or “have to.” It’s more complicated though. What happens if a need is unfufilled? The situation doesn’t happen. I think that some people tend to instantly presume the answer to that question is “You die.” This isn’t articulated, it’s just kind of a “back of the head” thing.

    Another thing I think is at work is the concept of nothingness. Nothingness freaks people out. There was actually a book on Amazon about that (I wish I’d bought it & now I can’t remember the name, but it was about the theory that the fear of nothing has been used to cause all sorts of things, from general scams to war).

    Remember Robin Hood (the Russell Crowe version)? When King John is talking to the crowd before the end battle starts? He says that “Without the king, there is no kingdom- there is nothing.” Before that he was standing face-to-face with a guy that was just talking quite fervently about killing him & King John gives him the opportunity. He even offers his sword to do the deed- the guy doesn’t do it, though. I think that’s because it’s kind of weird to go after someone when they’re not coming right at you or running away like someone that knows they’re the enemy.

    He’s using nothing as both a shield & a weapon. Saying “there IS NOTHING” is something that can sink in literally, even if it’s typically used as a figure of speech (from there, someone might be looking to steer clear of this situation by whatever suggested methods). That “poker face tactic” is frequently used to convey that they’re so dangerous that they’re unworried (a common thing when two guys are about to fight), but it can also be used like I said earlier.

    When someone says “need/must/have to,” that idea of nothingness can apply, whether it’s that knee-jerk presumption that death will result from a need going unfufilled or by the “death” of the situation that doesn’t occur- because death frequently is thought of as nothingness. Now it gets the idea of nothing in their head (which is a spooky thing for them) & they’re trying to wrap their heads around this (which keeps going & going, like when someone tries to picture infinity)- because of this, the fear will build & build until they finally snap from that. Not necessarily going on a rampage or running around screaming, it could just be that they give way/burn out.

    In this case, specifically- it would probably mean doing as directed by the doctor, whatever that happens to amount to.

    • bethkz says:

      The book you’re talking about is _Fear of Nothing_ by Rick Aster, published 2009, ISBN 978-1-891987-14-7 It’s available from Amazon and many other book sellers, both new and used, or you can borrow it from/through your local library, or perhaps through Interlibrary Loan.

      A description and reviews are available on Goodreads at http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7958347-fear-of-nothing?from_search=true

      It looks like a worthwhile book. It also goes into just why and how this fear of nothing is the underlying cause of the 2008 financial crisis, and just why and how it is that we willingly give as much as half of our money away in interest so that we can have more things right now, and, for that matter, why these payments to banks are called “interest” in the first place.

      • Alex says:

        Thanks, but I don’t think that’s it. The one I’m talking about talks about a lot of different subjects- it’s kind of like a crowd psychology book. You know, like the ones that talk about how propaganda works & information cascades & all that?

        I can’t find it anywhere. This is going to make me nuts! Anyway, I figure it’s actually “thinking by adjucation” (as I call it) that really causes, or at least camouflages, most of the problems in the world – that’s why I didn’t buy the book. I definitely remember it being one of those “root of all evil” type of things.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Hello, this is for all of you/us. Whatever you can do to help sort though it. Elizabeth, as usual your wisdom shines re tests of any kind; here referring to CA-125. You advice think ahead, try to plan. I concur {don’t I sound smart?;)}. i regard any test as a step, a piece of info never the whole answer. Thanks to you and others here test error rates are being discussed. I never imagined tests having such error rates, and false-negatives/false-positives.

        We, should I say hubs, talked again to my gyno. I’m not comfortable on the phone in these situations. If I could read everything for myself w/o going into pain, like what happens after 5 minutes on the phone, this would be easier. We know chronic pain and spinal injuries. But we’re still on the learning curve here. Learning what to ask him. This guy likes talking, is easy going, and is willing to answer questions. That doesn’t mean he’s right though. This is also his learning curve. He claims not to have access to nor knowing any alternative to pap. Further, he claims that cc can occur w/o HPV! Adding it can happen anytime in life.

        He said HPV was never discussed until Big Pharma developed the vaccine, and Big Pharma drives almost all developments in medicine, even treatments. He said the vaccine is useless in adults, further no matter the circumstance he won’t recommend for adolescents, the target customer. To him it’s false protection with added issues/problems. He said it’s all about the money; it costs $100 x3 injections, compared to $10 for TDaP. Specifically, before the vaccine, HPV was never discussed. [however, no HPV test, not much reason to talk about it; we already knew it caused cc, agree?]

        He said cc can happen “de novo” (on its own), whether or not HPV is present. [how, genetics?] He said pap gets the top layers that HPV infects, plus layers below (where alternative pap tests do not sample, therefore being non-effective) where this non-HPV cc originates and migrates upwards. He didn’t indicate specific cause here, while explaining that some women harboring it [extreme slow growth] [not at all detectable?] experience cc attack late in life. [contrary Moo's research that HPV isn't latent but cleared within 2yrs & no other cc etiology exists] So he’s saying the pap is unique that it catches organic cc coming up from below. [looking fwd to reading our research re this] [we'll send letter to 88yr old aunt w/cc; she received radiation & surgery] Then he states cc is a young woman’s disease, striking most women around 30yrs; risk diminishing by age 50 so I’m too old for it… [Then why pap me? For what can grow deep within?] [I deeply despise this degrading test, hating the scrape most, finally my husband tells me he has reliable info (from here) stating I never need it again has mobilized every fiber within me to simply not see the med period. However I need my Estro-Test, and guess what? I had a period after 5yrs of bliss...]

        Dr worked in Tiajauna Mexico 1970’s-style clinic during residency. He saw many women who’d birthed 6-10x, lacking care, and many developed prolapsed uterus. He described epidemic cc in these women. These women were grateful and so was he. They received a vaginal hysterectomy; he got experience. [to me, the cc prevalence represents HPV spread due to the grossest lack of sanitation imaginable, men transferring HPV from prostitutes.] [would there be vaginal warts plus cc in advanced HPV?]

        We asked about literary proof that cc occurs w/o HPV. He said it’s discussed in med school books back in the 70’s-80’s. [Why not now?] Now to research that aspect. This is not over. Although he prefers pap, if we can find alternative he’ll go along. Next, we’ll be making calls to labs & Delphi manufacturer to get their side and see what it takes to obtain. My knee requiring total replacement gives me good reason to pursue alternative, given if it locks or fails I could go from pap to ER to surgery. No thanks.

        Dr explained a period can still happen even with low-level Estro-Test therapy. He may request I have a sonogram done to measure my uterine thickness, although the vaginal probe provides a better view. We’re also going to research estrogen vs progesterone. Someone remarked the latter is preferred during my phase of life. Thanks to everybody for reading, I’m looking forward to responses, and advice for the next phase in this adventure.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        HI C&M
        “Further, he claims that cc can occur w/o HPV”

        I’ve found over the years that quite a few doctors have a poor understanding of this subject, on one forum a gynecologist told us that adenocarcinoma is not linked to HPV, wrong! He was provided with some references and admitted he was incorrect. How many women has he misled over his career?
        This is the argument used by some US doctors to justify doing pap tests on women who’ve never been sexually active. (and they also, assume all women have been sexually active by a certain age, claims of virginity at 23, 25, 30 etc. are not to be believed…there is so much wrong with that thinking, I barely know where to start)

        He may be referring to some fleetingly rare cervical cancers, neuroendocrine carcinomas of the cervix: small-cell and large-cell. This type of cc “may” not be linked to HPV, although some/many believe they are also, linked to HPV.
        BUT these aggressive cancers are usually diagnosed when the woman is symptomatic. I think women diagnosed with these very rare cancers are likely to get a false negative pap test result, and we all know that can cause issues, false reassurance.
        I think about 200 women in the whole of America get these cancers so I wouldn’t be spending too much time worrying about them.

        The pap test was designed to prevent/detect squamous cell carcinoma, which is more common than adenocarcinoma. (but still rare)
        So even if he’s right and these cancers are not linked to HPV, a) they’re VERY, VERY rare and b) a pap test is unlikely to help these women anyway and may disadvantage them. (false negative)

        If women want to test, I don’t think you can do better than HPV primary or self-testing from age 30. IMO, pap testing should simply be offered to the roughly 5% who are HPV+ and aged 30 to 60. We could scale this testing WAY back to 5 HPV primary or self-tests and only 5% of women offered pap testing, that means colposcopy, biopsies and treatments would also, plummet.
        Of course, that also, means a LOT of money lost to vested interests, so most countries will stay with excess and drag as many women into unnecessary and excessive testing as possible.
        HPV wasn’t mentioned initially because they didn’t want women knowing the cancer was linked to a STI, they felt that might put some women off testing.
        Then IMO, they worked out it could be used to scare more women into pap testing, “HPV is common, if you’ve had sex even once, you must have pap testing etc.”
        Of course, a fortune is being made in this fight with an always-rare cancer, population pap testing, liquid pap tests, over-screening, re-testing, excess biopsies, over-treatment, women left with damage to the cervix so infertility, miscarriages, premature babies, high risk pregnancies, the need for c-sections and cervical cerclage etc and of course, Gardasil.
        A vast industry has been built around one always-rare cancer. (that was also, in natural decline)

        “The major problem with early accurate diagnosis of SCC is the limitation of routine screening, namely the Pap smear.”
        “It has been observed that HPV18 is the most prevalent type in Small cell cervical cancer. Like other types of cervical cancer it seems to be associated with high-risk (e.g. 16, 18, 31) HPV Infection.” Ref: Atienza-Amores, Maria. “Small cell carcinoma of the gynecologic tract: A multifaceted spectrum of lesions”. Gynecologic Oncology (Elsevier).
        So this is one author who believes small cell carcinoma IS linked to hrHPV.
        Hope this helps, good luck.

  18. Moo says:

    Small cell cervical cancer is extremely rare but the case is not known. It is not caused by HPV and even more rare that those types caused by HPV 16 and 18.


    Apparently as we age we lose our abilitiy to fight off HPV infections. The only way to know if an older woman had a new cases of HPV infection ( from a pelvic exam for example) is to know exactly what strains she had before and compare. Some women could have persistent infection with the same strain for years that developed into cancer.

    What looks like HPV might not be HPV because a lab test needs to confirm it. Everyone is told that they have genital warts when sometimes it is not. Back when women were given paps tests and the metal speculums used were never sterilized between patients just soaked in water and bleach and then put into hot water. No wonder they all got cervical cancer. Wow Pap tests is so great but the methods for it just spread it and made it worse. So years of experience and doing surgery in 1970’s would not impress me.

    Your choice to get your cervix scraped. Your body. Doctor will not give your meds without it? Either get another doctor or find a way to do without the artificial hormones.

    Hyperplasia in perimenopause is just a made up disease. Fall for that one and you will get a hysterectomy and maybe be told that it was all a false alarm.

    I do not expect people to agree with everything I post up here as I am not putting myself beside doctors and scientists. I just like to do my own research and I am capable of understanding much.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Believe me, I came here b/c I knew the women here combined have the latest knowledge about these diseases, and I’ll get the truth and not some vaginal car-salesperson hipe or half truths which you can see he gave me. Same old thing. A contradictory story, followed by a helpless to change but I can save your life you better come see me bit. This is not over. The worst he said I could be in for re my uterus would be a D&C if the lining got too thick.

      The next time we converse our side will go to him in writing. He’s not expecting anybody to actually verify anything. We’ll gather things from here, do our own research, and get back to him adding where and how the “alternatives to pap” can be utilized. He said if I find it he’ll go along. I did come out of this with three sample tubes of Estrace cream though. That’s good.

      What bugs me, is when I first saw him, I had zero hormones on labs (all of them) and had atrophying organs. I couldn’t climax either, something never a problem. He claimed I looked normal, all things were normal, did I try lubes etc? Never needed them. We begged & got the Estro-Test plus Estrace cream for topical use. It took a dermatologist to understand the atropy issue and she wrote me testosterone cream. She was more understanding than he and my female internist combined. This pisses me off royally. No follow up labs. Also, if any of you use Estro-Test, the blue tabs don’t work at all. Stick to the green ones. There are only two generic brands so this should be easy.

      A PSA. If any of you use meds by Apotex out of Bangalore India, there’s a major problem. Canadian government is refusing 30 meds from Apotex. Personally, I’ve found every med made by Apotex to be total junk, and we refuse to accept this brand from the pharmacy. Thank you for helping me on this issue with info.

  19. Alex says:

    Not exactly an “up-lifting” article, but if you Google “Afghanistan Surge In Women Jailed For “Moral Crimes” it DOES actually mention their imposing virginity tests on women as an abuse.

    The thing is, it seems like they kind of had a “useful is not wrong” tone, though. Like if it was an accurate method of diagnosis it’d be fine- big suprise, right? Something doesn’t have to be useless to be a problem & this IS imposed penetration- which they kind of mention as a problem in itself, just not in a point-blank way like that.

    It really is suprising how often the term “iatrogenic attack” id dodged. The term “medical attack” would work fine & should probably occur to someone right off the bat. An unconventional attack can be called as such, too. I see someone dodge it like that & I presume they’re a supporter of the situation.

  20. Ozphoenix says:

    This is a little off topic, but I really have to speak my mind.

    Abuse, deception, power-plays and overcharging for un-necessary treatments is not just confined to human doctors.

    I’ve had cats ever since I was little, and we really need to open our eyes to the behaviour of vets, not just human doctors.

    My cat required emergency treatment on a public holiday last weekend. He’s diabetic, and he was lethargic, appeared to be in pain and would not eat anything (meaning I could not inject him with insulin). Called the local emergency vet. Yes, I can bring him in, and the fee for just walking in the door was $280.

    Fine. My cat needs help, I’ll pay.

    Get to the vet, the diagnostic dance begins. Blood work, physical exam, lots of ‘Umming’ and ‘Hmmming’.

    Blood results come back. His liver enzymes are ‘1000’ instead of being in the ’30 – 100′ range. They think he might have something wrong with his liver, they’d like to do an ultrasound.

    I ask how much the ultrasound would cost. They keep saying they need to do it. Go back and forth for a few minutes with they ‘need’ to do it. I keep asking about the cost. Finally get a stubborn answer – $500 for the scan, plus $350 consultation fee with the specialist vet.

    I refuse the ultrasound. I get disbelieving looks from the vet and them wanting to know why. I say the cost is too high.

    “Yes, but he needs it”.

    I consistantly decline, despite strong pressure.

    My cat stays overnight at the emergency vet. In the morning, they insist on the ultrasound again. I refuse. Grumpily, they suggest that perhaps my cat can go to his own vet for monitoring.

    This I agree with. Then I pay the $800 bill for 12 hours of care.

    Cat arrives at his own vet, and begins being monitored. His liver enzymes are begining to drop. Down to 700, then down to 500. He is on a drip and has various more diagnostic tests done.

    I ask how he is. He’s eating and bright. We decide he is on his way to getting well again and he probably does not have cancer. After two days I ask if I can bring him home. They want him to stay for one more day, to stay on the drip and his recovery rate will be faster. The charge for ‘one more day’ is $250.

    I decline, and tell them I’m bringing him home now. Vet isn’t happy, but she concedes.

    Pick up cat from vet, am told that vet wants to see him in another week for another consultation ($100) and a week after that for a full diabteic workup (3 years ago that cost $350, so it must be over $400 by now).

    I’m refusing the full diabetic workup, and will instead drop him off for blood testing before breakfast, and again in the afternoon, which means they cannot charge for the whole day, and my cat is less stressed.

    My previous vet used to insist on the ‘full’ day diabetic workup, do one day (at $300) and then insist they do the next day as well because they’re not fully happy with the results (meaning another $300). I sacked thet vet. They also used to prescribe the wrong insulin (they gave him a type which would have kileld him if I had noticed that it was’nt the ‘usual’ type, and he was always getting the wrong medication at the front counter because the head vet was too cheap to use vet nurses at the front counter, and he put work experience girls there instead), they left injured and in-pain animals in the waiting room while they continued flea treatment consults (I had a feral bunny with his intestines hanging out, and they kept doing a flea treament regime with a labrador and ignoring the bunny while the poor bunny was moaning and fitting in pain. I demanded they not keep him waiting, and got told off and glared at by the vet) and used to take urine samples directly from my cats bladder through the abdominal wall without using a local anesthetic and sedative (making him absolutely scream in pain until I realised what was happening and demanded that they stop). That vet would also charge $190 for an insulin vial – when the local human chemist charges $73.

    Misconduct, coercion and overcharging is not just confined to human doctors!! At least they haven’t thought of doing pap smears on my female cat…. yet.

    • Alex says:

      I always say: anything allopathic is psychopathic. Not that long ago, we put the dog down (she just crashed & would have basically been a prisoner in her own skin) & the costs were unbelievable!

      Also, didn’t like how they do rectal temperature-taking & didn’t know they did that. I kind of figured it was with some kind of ear monitor thing. Don’t know exactly how to express that- I guess you say everything you’d say with people, just saying “I know it’s an animal, but that is imposed probing- whether it has utility or not.” If you where to kick the dog in the face, that’d be cruel.

      • Alex says:

        Thanks, Ro.

        Didn’t know there was animal pap tests! I guess the antagonism to life really does run broadly. I know this sounds fanatical, but I really don’t see medical personnel as anything different from those priests in King Arthur (the Clive Owen version- it seems there’s more than one).

        People have gotten away from seeing a group as “them” & even say “we” when it’s things that they don’t even support- it’s a weird thing. In an effort to not be unfairly prejudiced against someone (which, if they cared about in the first place, probably wouldn’t have even come up) they’ve left themselves unable to be FAIRLY prejudiced.

        They are selected, trained, and certified- it’s more or less a suprising exception when they don’t act like assholes & then everyone else is wrong for thinking that they’ll act alike? Holy shit! The don’t think that way with the “gangs” that they’re all seemingly so worried about.

    • Ozphoenix, sorry to hear about your experiences and interesting points about vets. You mentioned your cat was diabetic and I was just wondering if he is on steroids. The reason I was wondering is because I recently found out about steroid induced diabetes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid_diabetes This might not apply to your cat (and you might already know about this) but it does seem so many pets are put on steroids.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if they did start doing pap smears on female cats, let’s hope they don’t think of it!

      • Ro says:

        Sue – The photo you posted while fantastic and satirical reminded me of a story I read on the old blogcritics article. One woman posted a comment sharing a story about some lady who was a veterinarian or what-have-you and decided to give her dog a pap test after she was symptomatic. The lady ended up being charged with animal abuse and yet when humans do this to women (even asymptomatic women, no less!) it’s “saving lives.” Talk about double standards. I don’t think I’ll ever understand that one. I’m sorry to hear about your dog, Alex. Ozphoenix, I’m sorry your cat had to go through all that run-around, but I’m glad to hear he’s doing better now!

        I’d like to add a side note to what Alex said about anything allopathic being psychopathic : I had cats when I was a child and we always got them de-clawed. I didn’t think or know that there was anything wrong with it and neither did my parents. Recently, I found out that de-clawing a cat is animal cruelty to the extreme (point blank: it’s mutilation), and worse, it’s legal. When a cat gets de-clawed, they cut back the bone to remove the entire claw. Essentially, it would be the same as having all of your fingers cut off at the knuckle. Thankfully, if you have a problem with cats scratching or clawing, there are alternative methods available. They actually have these little slip-on nail covers (you can even get them sparkly or different colors to make it look like they’re painted LOL) that you place over your cats claws and replace once in a while. If I ever get another cat, then I’ll use those. However, they are usually not recommended by veterinarians in the US as de-clawing is still big business here. What’s interesting to note is that many other countries have actually outlawed it. It seems that the supposedly “less advanced” countries have more respect for life (both humans and animals) than our “advanced” countries. I guess with “advancement” comes a whole lot of greed and not much care.

      • adawells says:

        In the UK we don’t have declawing at all. I’d never heard of such a thing to do to a poor animal. I was horrified when I found out about it a few years ago. We had some Canadian guests pay us a visit, and seeing our own cat with all it’s claws outstetched, they were surprised British cats have claws on them. When they explained that in Canada the claws are taken out, there was a dreadful and embarrassing silence on our part. We did not tell them our thoughts, but I think it was felt, and we had no further contact with them…

      • Diane says:

        RE the vets: it really depends. The vets I have for my cats have always refused to do declaw surgeries. Instead they will always trim cats’ nails for free and they will teach owners how to do it if they’re interested. To me that is a vet that truly puts the needs of the animals over $$$$.

      • Ro says:

        Adawells – I’m glad to know that they don’t declaw in the UK! It really is a horrible thing. I just wish that my parents and I would have known what it actually was when I was younger. I feel guilty about it at times, but it’s over and at least I know now and can warn others if I know they’re considering declawing their cat.

        Diane – I’m glad to know some organizations and veterinarians here are stepping up on the issue! Unfortunately, the vet I took my previous cats to was not one such vet. He was all for declawing and even encouraged it. I’m disgusted. If I ever get another cat, I will find a vet who does not declaw period. Upon request or otherwise.

  21. Diane says:

    i think that declawing is a great example of how something very harmful can become status quo, and how hard it can be to change that. The vast majority of rescue groups, animal shelters et al in America condemn declawing (I’m pretty sure both the ASPCA and the Humane Society have taken a formal stance against it), but there are still some vets that do it, and there are still some people who think it’s acceptable or even necessary. As far as I know, the AVMA hasn’t formally condemned it yet, and perhaps that is because they know it’s $$$ for some vets. The only way to get it to stop would be to ban it outright the way it’s been banned in Europe and most other places, and that hasn’t happened yet. HOWEVER, there are cities and municipalities that ban declawing, so we’re making small steps here.

    For what it’s worth we’ve never declawed cats in our family; we just learned how to gently trim their nails and give them lots of places to scratch around the house. When I adopted two kittens from a cat rescue a few years ago, the contract I signed actually stipulated that I had to promise never to declaw my cats. And IIRC the rescue refused to adopt to anyone who had ever declawed their cats in the past. Good idea, there.

  22. Alex says:

    Something that I didn’t think of until right now (oddly enough), it’s pretty common to neuter various animals, too. You expect a dog to protect you after you’ve cut it’s balls off?

    Spaying is, perhaps, a little bit broader- seeing as doctors have sterilized women, too. This was something that happened to Native American women in America until at least the 1960s (I’ve heard until the 1980s, as well). This pack of vermin then teaches the new doctors & nurses (who, apparently, will follow a doctor’s suggestions even if it means the patient’s life).

  23. Si says:

    I’m really impressed with this breast cancer organisation, Breast Cancer Action; it supports evidence based research and works towards less toxic treatments, aids research into environmental causes, and warns women of the risks and benefits of screening, they’ve even got a leaflet on screening facts (the real ones!) BCA also openly challenges the public pink campaigns; such as negative and unhelpful messages to women, and the advertising language used, myths about the disease, and apparently it refuses funding from pharmaceutical companies and corrupt companies cashing in on the think pink campaign.


    • Ro says:

      I finally got around to checking out that site. What a breath of fresh air! I never gave to any of those foundations because I believed they were pocketing money and none of it would actually go towards finding a cure anyway, because it’s far too profitable for those behind the organizations if there isn’t a cure. It’s a disgusting, horrible, twisted truth. Some of the things they’re doing are ridiculous and it’s all a money making scam. It’s so disrespectful to those who have suffered at the hands of such an awful disease. Anyway, there is so much good information there. There’s no condescending tone and women’s choices are respected. So lovely! Now if only there were sites like that for the other screening programs out there…(for both men and women)

  24. Ro says:

    Today I found out that someone I know of went to the ER for an unrelated cause and was told that she has an ovarian cyst which needed to be removed because it was, “larger than average”. That seems like a fairly flimsy reason to me, especially in an asymptomatic woman. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t that similar to saying, “well your big toe is larger than average so we’ll need to amputate it, even though it isn’t causing you any problems”? All women are different shapes and sizes, so it would make sense that their internal organs and ovarian cysts (which most women get every month) would be different sizes as well. Then, I caught wind that the women around her were talking about how being a woman is such a hassle and it’s so awful and our reproductive parts are useless if we don’t have or have already had children. That’s such an awful way to view the female body. It honestly makes me tear up a little bit as I’m writing this. I don’t want to go through life like that, viewing the body that God has given me as some sort of enemy or villain that must be controlled and vanquished. It’s so sad that women feel this way about their bodies and it’s awful that so much unnecessary action has been taken involving the female body over the last century. When things like this happen, I’m so thankful that I’ve found a place with like-minded women where I can vent about this. I’ve said it before and I am aware that there truly are women out there with problems involving their reproductive organs, and that is awful and heartbreaking. But at this point, the female reproductive system has become a commercial business in its own right. There is so much unnecessary treatment and over-treatment taking place. Especially in the US and countries with similar programs and incentives.

    • Alex says:

      Yeah, I’ve noticed that a lot of women seem to want to be men & a lot of men act gay as a Broadway cowboy. It’s bizarre: The men either act useless or like enemies, the women at the same time as praising self-governance & not being kicked-around are adamantly supportive of people pushing women around, and the kids don’t seem to have much of anything to learn from (plus, there’s the added danger that someone will prey on them in a subtle way).

      I always look at men that broadly dislike women & only want to be around other men as fruits with an attitude. It’s even worse when they view the woman’s body in the way you said. Someone that thinks this is something to be controlled or vanquished is twisted & probably at least a little bit gay. Not for nothing, but outright making that point if a guy goes on a tirade tends to cut shit short.

      For a woman, I’d think just saying “You’re so self-hating!” would probably generate a personal review. Saying “What? Do you want to be a guy?” might be useful, but I truly do think a lot of women are very bitter about their own lives (anatomy included) & might just be something like a black hole.

      • Ro says:

        I don’t think that either gender truly wants to be the other (save for those who are actually transgender). I just think that, overall, society has warped some of the best parts of femininity and masculinity into being something horrible and awful. For women, it’s basically everything I mentioned in my previous comment and then some. For men, it’s typically to do with how they present themselves. If they want to provide for their families or if they have a protective nature, a lot of the time they’re told that they have internalized misogyny. While that may be true in some cases, that a man does those things or wants to use them as a form of control, I think that most of the time men want those things because it’s just part of they’re make up as a whole. They have the desire to provide and protect.

        I think most women aren’t actually self-hating, they just believe that the medical merry-go-round is something they MUST do and that there is never a choice. So then they feel trapped and fearful of their bodies. That’s just my opinion, though. I can understand how feeling like that would eventually make someone bitter. It’s an awful feeling thinking that you have no choice in what’s done to your body.

      • Diane says:

        I agree, Ro. The irony is that the way “well woman exams,” Paps and so forth are presented by the medical community and the media – and by other women – make women believe that they’re being proactive and caring for their bodies. If you love yourself you’ll get a Pap. That kind of nonsense. Women are led to think they’re taking the bull by the horns and looking out for their health when they go for these tests. I don’t think it’s self-hatred; I think it’s proof of very effective behavioral conditioning.

        And then, as we’ve all seen, women are also led to believe that there are dreadful, fatal consequences if they don’t get these GYN tests. They’re too frightened to break out of the conditioning and they’re not supplied with correct information that could help them make an informed decision. If you look on the average medical site for laypersons, it just gives the standard party line about how you need a Pap or you’re going to die on the spot. To find the true information one has to be willing to dig deeper and read those medical journal extracts and such. Most people can’t or won’t do that. They trust that those basic medical sites are giving them complete and accurate information so they don’t look further than that.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        There is no doubt in my mind these programs use advertising companies to sell pap tests and mammograms. We currently have a journalist and high profile sportswoman urging us to have breast screening.
        Sure…I’m going to dash off and do it because a couple of high profile women think it’s a good idea. It’s an insult to our intelligence, if it was such a great test, they wouldn’t have to resort to celebrity endorsement to get us screened, they could rely on the evidence.
        BUT as they told Professor Baum in THAT meeting about 15 years ago, “Professor Baum, we can’t give women all of the information and give them a choice or they won’t turn up for screening”…he resigned from the Screening Committee, and the coercion, lies, unethical tactics etc. continues.
        How could anyone call this screening?

      • bethkz says:

        Someone put me on the spot the other day about how “wonderful” this pink ribbon campaign stuff is, how wonderful that some semi-local companies are to be sponsoring it, and a 5K run for it. No, this “pinkwashing” – companies putting up an insignificant percentage of their profits to be permitted to put the pink ribbon on their product – even if their products have been shown to increase the risk of breast cancer. She went on to tell me, “You know, breast cancer is the #1 killer of women.” HARDLY! Heart disease is. Cancer is 2nd or 3rd. That’s ALL types of cancer. Several other cancers come up higher, including lung cancer.

        Moreover, this bikini medicine focus detracts from women’s actual health care. Women are more likely to die of their first heart attack than men are. If a man goes to an emergency room complaining of chest pains, he will likely receive an EKG and treated as a possible heart attack victim. If a woman does, she’ll likely be given this quiz about when she had a pap test or a mammogram, shamed if it’s longer than recommended, someone listen to her heart via a stethoscope, encouraged to have a(nother) mammogram, perhaps referred for evaluation of her “anxiety” condition. Rarely, even if they decide she’s having a heart attack, will it be treated as aggressively as a similar situation is for a man. Women with heart conditions just don’t fare as well.

        I wonder why….

      • Alex says:

        Elizabeth: What meeting? I’d like to be able to bring that up, if an argument ever came up on the subject.

      • Diane says:

        Oh ye Gods, yes, Bethhz. The lack of attention that is paid to heart disease in women pisses me off like nothing else. It’s a serious concern and it’s just brushed under the carpet. I’ve read that cardiac issues like heart attacks manifest in women with very different symptoms than they do in men, and that management of heart disease in women can have different challenges. But do we ever hear about that? Do we ever have doctors who address heart disease in women with the same vigilance as cervical cancer? Noooo…

        And it’s very true that whenever a woman seeks emergency care, she is less likely to be taken seriously and much more likely to be immediately assessed for GYN issues – and that wasted time could cost her. I remember that when I had my appendix out. The ER doctor’s first response was, “oh, you’re just ovulating!” I was sitting there thinking, “Um, I’ve been ovulating for a while, THIS IS NOT AN EGG BEING RELEASED, guys.” The ER doctor did admit me and run tests anyway, to his credit, but the fact that his first response was to trivialize my condition by thinking that it was just a silly female problem, and that I was just overreacting and exaggerating about my pain, bothers me to this day. Especially since I had pretty classic appendicitis symptoms.

  25. Kleigh says:

    I heard of some hospitals giving all woman a pelvic exams when they come in for anything. Standard of care its crazy. And so sad. Also theres a new show in the US were a virgin goes to a gyn for a pap smear and the gyn impregnants her. Im seeing more and more gyn exams being shown as a normal part of woman lives in tv and movies. Its so sicking like there trying to send a mesage and yes us doctors do paps on virgins its sick as soon as you turn 21 hear no matter what they want a date to record of your last pap it infuerates me that woman healthy woman see this as normal.

    • Ro says:

      Kleigh – That is disgusting and horrible. I can’t believe that’s a show here. I say we start a petition against it. It is awful that they treat all women like patients who must be constantly monitored from a certain age. The woman I was talking about didn’t get a pelvic when she went to the ER, but she did have a CAT scan which detected the cyst. So that proves the theory I had that they can detect symptomatic ovarian cysts without being invasive. But I doubt they’ll ever offer it.

    • Alex says:

      Wait, the show is about docotrs that impregnates women or that’s just the plot? Creepy, either way. That’s another things I’ve noticed: T.V. tends to make all the official-types out to be friends & everyone else out to be enemies.

      You’re right that they do seem to still send this downtrodden message that instead of “your body , your rules” it’s “the doctor does as they chose.”

      I have to say: I’d throw a woman out of my house for trying to convey that to my daughter. Don’t know how this would happen, being as there’d be very serious compatibility issue there- but sometimes you get suprises after 15 years of marriage.

    • Diane says:

      Oh yeah, there’s always that question on the medical forms when you go to your doctor: “When was your last Pap?” I’ve had doctors ask me that and get mad when I tell them I’m there to talk about my knee pain, or a sinus infection, or whatever. It’s unreal they focus so much on that test and cervical cancer that they make it a basic health question.

      And of course it’s always right next to “When was your last period?” FFS, my period isn’t such a damn banner event that I know the date off the top of my head. I’ve actually been chewed out by nurses when I haven’t answered that.

      • bethkz says:

        Ah yes, the “When was your last monthly period?” question that comes right after the pap question – as if it’s some major event in the month. Heck, I don’t know when I paid last month’s electric bill, something that has real consequences to me, without looking at my check register! I haven’t been treated so condescendingly for not knowing, but I’ve had them strongly recommend a pregnancy test on the spot when I don’t know off the top of my head. That was even when I could not be pregnant due to having both a tubal ligation and a sexless marriage! This seems like a ridiculous thing to go through when I’m there for an infected wound, or knee pain, or a serious fever. It takes away from real medical care to the problem at hand, costs more money, and often leads to failure to diagnose or treat the real problem at hand. That is put off for a next appointment, when the same set of questions will come up, and no care is offered then either.

        That is why I almost never go to the doctor, even for real problems, because it is so pointless.

      • Diane says:

        I’ve had the nurses press for a pregnancy test when I didn’t know the exact date too. Such BS. The fun thing is that the birth control I take stops my period altogether, so I could always tell them “oh, I haven’t had a period in ten months or so…” and watch them implode. LOL. I don’t bother, though. I’ve had so much drama with that question that I just completely make s**t up now.

        In thinking about it more, it’s another example of how women are supposed to focus on their reproductive organs above all else. We’re all apparently supposed to be so preoccupied that we know our menstrual dates off the top of their head. Forget birthdays, or important dates at work, or when your car payment is due, or dates you did something fun – nope, ladies, just remember that period!

        And I’m with you on doctors. I honestly wish I could just order all the tests I need and write my own scrips. I usually get it right more often than the doctors do, and with far less drama.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Today, in San Diego CA, Jeffrey Abrams MD was arrested for taking pictures of women in various states of undress and of their genitals. He had 1600+ photos in his phone. I know a woman who used to treat through his office. She said he was “very thorough” in his exams. He was caught doing this where else? At a Medi-Cal (low income) health clinic.

        This is an example of how warped our system is. These f****** become so toxic from the god complex they actually believe it’s their right to take pics, and that they can and will get away with it. The next newscast will try to answer how long it’s gone on, and what his “fascination” or picture speciality was.

      • Alex says:

        Just out of curiosity, who tends to come at you all harder: nurses or doctors?

        It sounds like the nurses are kind of like the master’s dog & bark quite a bit on that master’s behalf, then the doctor acts like master of the world after all the softening up by the nurses.

        I’ve said it before, but if they feel enslaved by not having a choice in whether or not they do penetrative things to someone else, maybe they should ACTUALLY be enslaved. As it is, they seem to have a great problem with being told “No” with anything. Maybe their protests shouldn’t count for anything because of that.

        Just musing about the general idea, because I’m sick & fucking tired of them acting like Spartacus about being dictatorial. They go on all kinds of angles about how “they are not people’s slaves” & “they don’t do what they’re told” & “they know more about these things than other people”- yet none of this makes reality take a coffee break. What they do is still what happens & what happens is what occurs.

        The things that they have so much “expertise” in are sometimes even contraindicated by their own damned profession! Yeah, they know so much. They know when they’ve done something that caused a problem, too- doesn’t mean that they’ll tell anyone about it.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Want all you to know. Per 10/20/14 KGTV-10 “10 News,” the San Diego CA ABC affiliate, reported on its evening & late night tv broadcasts that Dr Jeffrey Abrams, a very prominent, well-respected, well-liked endocrinologist, has been arrested after being caught (finally) by a (brave) patient as he took a picture of her vagina. He had 1,300+ (I previously typed 1,600 in error but who really knows-other phones other pen cameras?) images of women in various stages of undress or naked, breasts, buttocks, vaginas, on his cell phone. Bet he kept his phone regularly updated! The CA Med Brd has NOT suspended his license however b/c they have no evidence that he’s a direct threat to his patient’s well-being. Explain this reasoning anybody? The patient was seeing Dr Abrams while he volunteered at a free clinic in a low-income area in El Cajon, a suburb of San Diego.

        This hits close to home. I know a woman who’s treated w/him for years. She’s said he’s “very thorough” and makes sure pelvics etc are kept up to date. There’s a very good chance I’m going to be referred to an endocrinologist, and he’d have been on my short list.

        Ro, I agree. At some point in med school, doctors willingly take on a god complex due to their high education, how they’re told their intelligence and decision making is better than us peasants, then they learn how to bully their way across the world. This year I had an epidural steroid injection in my back. The doctor was going to treat his wife next, and had her in the room watching. W/O my permission. They won’t let my husband watch; and this really pissed us off. However, should we file a HIPAA complaint, I’ll lose him. When we simply inquired about HIPAA policies, since this Dr is part owner, he blew a gasket. We’re fucked no matter what.

        Alex, re nurses you put it best. As I’ve written, we’ve seen best and worst. The best respect the patient and accept the family or husband as an advocate and partner. The worse are insecure psycho Stalins. They are suspicious of everything. They chase people out when visiting hours close. The ugly is a nurse in a divorce who also sees a female therapist. She thinks every woman needs her as an advocate, as she doles out assertiveness advice and reassurance that we can make our decisions. Forgetting that we delegate responsibilities to husbands when we feel like shit and don’t want to think if we don’t have to.

        The irony? Hearing a nurse talk about how important paps are; only for my husband to ask when her last one was. The answer she gave? Three years ago. “I don’t like them…”

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        On one US health forum a woman said she writes down, “currently menstruating” so she can’t be pressured into a pap test on the spot. Of course, she still gets serious pressure because she hasn’t screened in years, she gets the lecture about taking care of her health. So now, like so many women, she uses the pharmacy to manage her asthma. It makes me furious that this nonsense prevents some women from getting medical care for ACTUAL health issues.

      • Diane says:

        With doctors vs. nurses, it varies. I find that in a lot of cases, the nurses can actually be really, really great allies if you’re in the hospital or the ER. They’re typically the ones who are interacting with patients on a daily basis, and they put up with the stupid doctors too – so they’re in your corner. When my mom was in the hospital and the doctor was being an asshole – he wanted to do a procedure on my mom without pain meds – the nurse was the one who stood with me and battled the doctor until he agreed to do things our way.

        On the other hand, some of them make Nurse Ratched look good – they can’t be bothered, they’re not very well trained, or they hector patients (like the ones with the pregnancy tests). When my mom was hospitalized there was also one nurse who was very annoyed that at least one family member stayed with my mom 24/7 and wanted to know what was going on. Tough, lady. :)

        Doctors in contrast are a lot more likely to have a God Complex thing going on – they’re right, you’re wrong, and you’re obviously too stupid and uneducated to have a discussion about your care, etc. Unless they’re actually PAs, in which case they WILL talk to you and be very much into collaborative efforts.

      • Moo says:

        It is a valid question to ask if a women thinks she might be pregnant. Pregnancy could affect what medications or tests are prescribed. Some prescriptions have more risk during pregnancy so other medications might be prescribed instead or warnings might be given to discontinue if a woman finds out she is pregnant later.

        Asking when a women had her last menstrual period is just a lead to pap/pelvic exams. If the woman says she is menstruating then she is asked to come back in “two weeks”. It might be assumed by the woman that she is being asked back to follow up in the original reason for the consultation but I find this was not happening to me. Test results were not I and the doctor did not ask a out the previous condition. I was pressured at the next consult for a Pap test. I refused and there was arguing and his attempt to “educate” me a about cervicla cancer. All he had to do was ask me if I would be more comfortable with a female practioner and arrange for that. Since then I educated myself about the whole gyn industry and decided to avoid most medical care totally. This has destroyed any positive relationship I have with my doctor.

        I did have a heart attack before. Also I find Chinese herbs more helpful for my lung condition that anything else I have tried.

      • Kleigh US says:

        Pre conception care is being pushed as standard of care now. I bothers me alot. If you read the acog stance on this they advise all woman to be asked if they are trying to get pregnant or if not what birth control do they use? I dont use hormonal bc and i dont want to be asked about it as tho its the only way to prevent pregnacy. there is so much wrong with that i dont know where to start. they want use to all be vacenated and pap smears ready to conceive a baby at any time. its scary.

  26. Alex says:

    Something I just thought of while arguing with my mother (about different stuff): People simply using logic & lying. For example, if someone was wrong about something & they simply say that someone was doing that- they, LOGICALLY, can’t be the one doing it. “It’s not me, because it’s them.”

    Not to bitch about my family life, but I had a moment of realization on that “Logic & Lying” tactic & I figure that the way she acts has a lot of common themes with other people that play mind games. See if you notice this as a repeating theme (and she does, by-the-way, work in a hospital- not as medical personnel, but I figure maybe she picked a lot of things up the way that people pick up accents in foreign countries).

    With her, she acts like anything she does is totally justified if someone else has any flaw at all. And if she actually is totally wrong & there’s no “Well, what about you?” rescue angle- she just shuts down. It’s like playing dead, but verbally. She’ll just get quiet.

    As for doing things for other people (particularly the things they can’t do for themselves), she makes a big point about NOT getting to it when THEY want. Instead, it’s whenever the hell she feels like it.

    Trying to make someone wait until the desire dies is a thing with her, too. Either being coercive or simply getting a rush of feeling “influencial” is very common & she mainly pulls shit like this with people that she figures she doesn’t have to worry about. If they don’t have anything to safely threaten her with, she doesn’t give them a second thought.

    Another thing (and I think it’s liely that she picked this up from the hospital), is that she seems to think that her affirmation of a situation is the final ingredient to something actually being that way or not. I’ve had arguments with her about the measurement on a pair of pants, showing her where things line up on the tape, and she STILL kept aruging!

    Overall, there’s lots of “Thinking by Adjucation,” passive-aggressive games, “doctrine bound” behavior (once she commenses on a course of action, it’s like she can’t go in a different way), guilt trips, and that “Logic & Lying” combo I mentioned earlier.

    Again, I’m not trying to go on & on about my family dynamics, but I’m very curious if any of you have noticed that behavior in people that aren’t strictly medical- but do work in hospitals or some such. I’m wondering if there’s a link, because the only two things that have changed AND remained constants are how much times she works in the hospital & that she stopped smoking (possible Parkinson’s link with that- supposedly smoking does things to fix & prevent Parkinson’s).

    • Ro says:

      I’ve noticed that behavior in those who work in/used to work in the medical field. I’ve also noticed it in people who have jobs totally unrelated to the medical field or anything directly involving people’s lives in that manner. I think when it comes down to it, there are people who like to believe they’re always right and always know best. I think it’s more prominent within the medical field because of the lengthy education they must go through first. Even though I’m quite young, I think one of the most important lessons I’ve learned is that you acquire book smarts from school, knowledge from communicating with others and learning from their experiences, and wisdom from living life and your own experiences. There is a large difference between them and I think people who think they know the best and know everything often times confuse the three.

      • Alex says:

        Very insightful, Ro! Especially, the second-to-last sentence.

        On the last one, I think another thing has to do with schooling equating with points like in a score. Like they have some kind of ammuntion against someone. They are usually very arrogant (those that are educated, particularly in things that are fawned-over), so they’ll remain unconvinced that their level of information accumulation does not generate a superiority over other people & that it actually does NOT warp reality so that what happens is NOT what occurs.

        This is a major part, I think, of why these “nerds” tend to get beaten-up: they start fights & then try to re-define the situation out of existance & don’t stop until they GET stopped. That’s another thing: they keep trying. It comes off almost whiny, you know? They’ll have lots of endurance with an endeavor of starting shit & lying about it.

  27. Victoria says:

    On another forum I’m chatting with someone who – from the sounds of it – went in for a smear test and unknowingly had a biopsy done instead. They say the nurse didn’t use a brush, they used a metal clipper. I don’t see why a biopsy would be done when the smear hasn’t even been analysed yet, and of course the patient deserves a full explanation and options before they just go taking a sample.

    Because of that discussion I went over to the NHS’s colposcopy information guide. They have comments from the public underneath and one just goes to show how women view their reproductive organs and chances of having cancer/female health issues. One commenter says she didn’t go for a smear until she was 37. The smear shows abnormal cells. Her response? “I kind of expected this given that it was my first one.” Why on earth is it expected? It sounds like she pictured her reproductive organs festering away for years on end, just because the health service wasn’t keeping an eye on them.

    • Alex says:

      Well, there can be somewhat of a knee-jerk belief that if something isn’t verified, then it doesn’t exist. Like if they didn’t take someone’s pulse, that means that they don’t have a heartbeat.

      That actually happens quite a bit. Look at what sometimes happens in martial arts: people will learn exact moves & answers to problems and feel like they have control over that situation. Of course, just because they mentally encompass something doesn’t give them control over it. That false concept is something that shows up frequently & is not limited to the martial arts world in the least.

      (Just to make a point of how stupid this belief is: It would amount to someone thinking that if they know how a gun works, they can stop themselves from being shot at will!)

      As an after-thought that I just had: A lot of these things are very characteristic of OCD or OCPD (it seems that the first one is something of an “implosion” & the other one is more of an “explosion,” as it’s more or less the technical term for being a pushy control freak). Not just being dictatorial & trying to hi-jack other people’s lives, but things like having a Thought-Action Fusion (where someone thinks that thinking about something & doing that action are the same thing).

      Maybe the foundation of that “thought-action fusion” is a point, in itself. They, more or less, seem to feel that reality is a mere mental construct (as they figure that these thoughts ARE the situations) & that they hold total sway over it. The thing is though, is that someone can’t think reality is what they say it is & notice when things don’t go their way.

  28. Victoria says:

    I’m now on the Jo’s Trust forum where someone was told they had “high grade” abnormal cells, booked in for colposcopy, worries for several weeks, then is told they don’t know what grade the cells were and labelling them as “high grade” was just to cover their backside.

  29. adawells says:

    Further news from the UK here. I was trying to find out about the future of pap testing in the UK and when we are likely to get HPV self testing and I came across this document:


    Flick to the bottom of page 36 and it says that the HPV test for primary testing is likely to be rolled out in 2017-18. A whole 2 years after the Dutch programme. Very disappointing. It also does not say how they will get the HPV samples. Will they let women self test or will they still keep the speculum test going, I wonder?
    Paragraph pasted below:

    4.42 HPV Testing as Primary Screening (HPV TaPS)
    The UK National Screening Committee has given its support for a pilot to assess the value of using HPV TaPS for cervical disease, rather than the currently used cytology test. The pilot programme began in May 2013 and is now operating at six sites: Liverpool; Manchester; Northwick Park (Harrow); Bristol; Sheffield; and Norwich. This is potentially a huge change to the programme, so the pilot will run for at least three years in order to determine a safe and practical pathway for the programme. A formal evaluation of the pilot will take place and, if results show it is successful, we will roll out HPV TaPS across England, probably from 2017/18. Cancer Research UK have estimated that, when fully implemented, HPV TaPS could prevent an additional 600 cancer a year.

    So, if they rolled it out now it could save about 1800 cases of cancer in the UK, but then they wouldn’t be in control would they?

  30. adawells says:

    I’ve just noticed that historical Parliamentary debates from the UK government are all online and show how ardent our politicians were, and still are, about pushing women through the screening process, safe or not. I found this interesting report from 13.3.1987, about the state of British mammogram centres very revealing.
    A member of Parliament, Mrs R. Short revealed that:

    A conference of the Royal College of Radiologists was recently told: “Some existing centres are so bad—they have so many false positives and false negatives—that they positively do harm. We must improve or eliminate these centres or they will threaten the whole screening programme. If word gets around that the tests are inaccurate, women will not take up screening and the cost per patient will rise.”
    She then goes on to say:
    The role of general practitioners in persuading patients to accept screening is important. Experience shows that screening for breast cancer is much more likely to be accepted if encouraged by a GP. The response rate has been found to be highest when patients are sent a personal note with a provisional appointment bearing the GP’s signature. The signature was found to be a real motivating factor. The Minister should encourage GPs to do that.

    The link for this is:


    • Moo says:

      Did you realize this linked document was from a meeting in 1987? I think far before those registeries and letter recall systems were started in some places. Really were women not taking advantage of cancer screening because “doctors were too busy”?

      Digital mammograms are supposed to be more accurate but how would one know what equipment was being used unless they asked. Also differences between who reads the X-rays.

      • adawells says:

        Yes, I’ve been researching how screening targets came to be forced on us by the government in the UK at this time (late 1980’s era). Our call and recall system came in during 1988, but even with this, uptake was only about 40%. In 1990 our then minister for health, Kenneth Clark drew up a plan to incentivise doctors to reach an 80% target for cervical screening, which many people including doctors said was impossible to achieve (ethically), and there was great resistance to these plans. However, after a meeting lasting some 10 hours, on 4th May, Clark, in his own words, bulldozed the plans through, and 80% of British women have been bullied and pestered into pap tests ever since. I would love to know what was said at this meeting, but it was secret. 4th May 1990 was the day British women lost their human rights, and their bodies were put under the medical surveillance of doctors.

  31. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Ada, it’s interesting there was a similar “secret” meeting on breast screening too, concerned doctors and critics were silenced and the program was pushed through, if you watch, “The Promise” you’ll hear all about it. I think these attitudes are the norm in women’s “healthcare”, forget women’s rights, others know best, women can be captured, scared, frightened, talked into anything…some might be unhappy, but it’s unlikely anyone will actually take us on, sue us, go to the media etc.

    I think many people can’t see how inappropriate and offensive these attitudes are, women have always been treated badly and viewed as a herd to be bullied into this or that.
    I view a lot of their actions as illegal, as well as highly unethical. The medical profession and others conveniently sanitize this abuse by calling it preventative health that’s in our best interests. Of course, if we end up harmed, tough luck, just shut up and be grateful you don’t have cancer. It really is a them and us thing, all real information is locked away, it really is astonishing there is virtually NO critical discussion on this testing, even after decades of abuse.

    It’s amazing we haven’t seen a class action, but then they’ve done everything in their power to intimidate/silence critics and keep women in the dark…and to accept all of this is actually in their best interests.
    I think it’s still a shock for doctors to face an informed woman, they’re used to simply providing the pap test “story”, issuing an order “all women must screen” or talking over the top of us…dismissing us.
    My GP tells me it’s still rare, at least in this country, to come across an informed woman. (more are questioning breast screening though)

    • Alex says:

      What about someone not choosing what’s “best”? What’s the difference if they don’t choose whatever’s optimum?

      Right off the bat, I’d say “best” is what’s most suitable- but, apparently, medical personnel don’t hold that to be true.

    • adawells says:

      Thanks for this. I will follow up The Promise. My research into the history of cervical screening has turned up some very interesting information. I’m reading up on some things by Ilana Löwy at the moment. Because she is a French national she has a different take on the blind mass screening hysteria, which has swept the Anglophone world. She provides an interesting history of how screening came about in England in her article here, which is freely available online.


      I’ve also ordered her book “A woman’s disease: a history of cervical cancer”, but I’m still awaiting it’s arrival from Amazon.

      From what I have gathered to date, it turned out that a doctor gave a talk at a women’s peace group meeting (in the 1950’s) saying that there was this test in America, which would save 3,000 British women from dying from cervical cancer every year. It seems to have been understood by the women/or the doctor giving the talk, that the pap test was a total, easy cure for the disease, as they then campaigned through Parliament, to get this test forced onto all women by the late 1980’s. Going through the parliamentary debates, the pap test seems to have been viewed at the time as being like a test to totally eradicate the disease, just as though it were tuberculosis or smallpox. They did not understand the course of cervical cancer was any different, and IMO they did not feel the need to get consent or ask women’s opinions about it, because they thought they could eradicate this disease in a decade if every woman was made to have this test.To them, it was a no brainer that this test should be rolled out WITHOUT the consent of women. All their hopes were pinned on the British Columbia study, which claimed a drastic reduction in cc, and there was, no doubt at the time, an arrogant belief in the righteousness of a study done in the “British Empire” to be correct, even though screening studies done elsewhere in Europe were showing that pap screening was making no difference to the death rate, such as those highlighted by Petr Skrabanek. A great shame that he died of cancer himself. He would have been a great thorn in the side of the screening programmes had he lived. Interesting that other very advanced European countries such as Germany, France and Norway, stayed away from introducing call and recall screening programmes.

      The more I find out, the more interesting this topic becomes.
      I’m also very interested in the Herb Green busines at the National Women’s hospital in NZ, and would love to get hold of Linda Bryder’s new book on the subject, Women’s Bodies and Medical Science: a history of cervical cancer


      as well as Angela Raffle’s book Screening: Evidence and Practice, but they are both still quite expensive.

      • Moo says:

        It all follows the Victorian times when any woman in the a street could be accused of being a prostitute, detained and give a speculum exam to determine if she had syphilis.

      • Kleigh US says:

        I find it disturbing they tried to normalize the pap smear to woman and take dignaty away from woman so they could pap smear every one.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Ada, It was almost viewed as a public health imperative and that was partly used to override the legal rights of women. (like compulsory detention/hospitalization for victims of SARS) Archie Cochrane is another one to study, the eminent epidemiologist, he told them it was too early to introduce a cervical screening program. He wanted them to wait and do independent randomized controlled trials. (which should be a requirement for all screening programs) He was dead right, but no one wanted to hear it, he was thrown to the lions.

        I shudder to think of the harm that was done in the early days, how many women had hysterectomies for “abnormal” cells? In those days they assumed abnormal cells meant cancer, then it became clear these women could not all be destined for this always fairly rare cancer, there were too many of them. Do you recall the woman who posted over at BlogCritics, she had a hysterectomy when she was in her early 20s for abnormal cells, she now realized it was unnecessary. It was heartbreaking and it was clear she was still traumatized by the experience and of course, she was unable to have children. I can’t recall the details now, but I have a feeling she had never been sexually active.
        Another woman posted on Dr Sherman’s site, she went through the same thing and remained single, she wanted nothing to do with sex or the medical profession and felt the best way to protect herself in future was to remain single and celibate.
        How many women are out had their lives destroyed by cervical screening? Many probably don’t know to this day the hysterectomy was unnecessary and their female relatives probably consider themselves high risk.

        IMO, this program was an experiment, women were used as lab rats…others made the decision to take a punt with this testing, to risk our health, peace of mind, our lives etc.
        We see something similar with breast screening, pushed in on the back of poor or biased studies conducted by those with an undisclosed vested interest in screening, critics bullied and silenced.
        J Epidemiol Community Health 2008;62:284-287 doi:10.1136/jech.2006.059246
        Public health past and present
        Debates about cervical screening: an historical overview
        L Bryder
        (behind a pay wall, naturally…)
        There are quite a few articles on Archie Cochrane and his concerns about cervical screening, wise man.

      • adawells says:

        Thanks for the article – I had no problems getting it through my uni library, and my book arrived this morning too, so a lot more reading to get my teeth into.

  32. Alex says:

    Sue, just a new thing I noticed: when I click “Like” it goes up & then back down in a few seconds. Just thought I should let you know.

    • Hi Alex. Thanks for letting me know about the “Like” buttons. They seem to be working okay from my end, but sometimes I’ve noticed it takes a couple of clicks for it to “take hold” properly. They are a bit finicky from time to time. Hopefully it will sort itself out soon. Thanks again Alex.

    • Kleigh US says:

      I read somehwere that paps were pushed hear in the US as a package deal with birth control to take the stigma of woman coming in for birth control that they were also there for cancer screening. i dont know if that true.

      • Alex says:

        Probably not. Here’s why:
        First, a purchase at a pharmacy is much more innocuous. Second is that if she’s on them, she’s on them- doesn’t really make much of a difference if she goes to a doctor’s office or not. There’s her simply being on them to make it noticed. On top of that, there would just be a cover story in that case- not an action taking place.

        One more thing is that they’d attach imposed probing to getting married in America during the Cold War- purportedly to determine if a woman would like sex & if so, it would lead to a good sex life with her husband, that would lead to a strong marriage, that would lead to a strong family, and that would lead to a strong country. Of course, there’s a major difference in the structure of the two situations- the one involving the doctor is imposed penetration & the one involving the husband is consensual. So it’s saying they are the same, despite that the two are different- which is a contradiction between description & situation. It’s not a uniquely American situation, but there being a contradiction between description & situation is a very common thing in America.

        Anyway, the people that do that are not likely to be backing women up & giving them an avenue around a stigma of being slutty (or whatever their problems with it were).

  33. Cat&Mouse says:

    We love reading what some of you have done in denying providers pap access. Many great laughs at “no period in ten months,” “I’m menstruating,” etc. Great work!.

    Along with news of Dr Abrams (above) I wanted to share this. Health Net of CA just mailed me its packet. Included is a schedule for age groups when things “NEED TO BE DONE.” [note one of you already pointed out "need" vs "recommended" etc]

    For newborns the HEP B vaccine. A Phd has studied this, and proven this series in children is associated with increased juvenile diabetes b/c the body views the vaccine closely to its own pancreatic cells and the immune system attacks both. In adults it’s ok.

    At age 11 HPV vaccine, both sexes. We know all about that freak fiasco.

    Adult women: Pap by age 21 regardless of sexually activity; then every 3yrs. Chlamydia: every year until age 24 if sexually active. We all know a chlamydia test is done in concordance with a pap. If a woman is at the lower end of the economic scale, she is treated as an illiterate, disease carrying, deviant who must be sexually policed.

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