Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog. (click on title or graphic to go to comments)

About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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1,308 Responses to Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

  1. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Well, well, well, haven’t they kept this quiet? I just found a local web address for Delphi Bioscience. It says “your doctor can order a Delphi Screener for you”…so the Screener will be locked behind doctors. Now why doesn’t that surprise me…

    http://www.delphiscreener.com.au/

    Women who don’t want to go through a doctor might be able to get it from Singapore, I’ll let you know when I hear from Delphi Bioscience.
    A few interesting things:
    “Will the Delphi Screener only be available through prescription?
    This depends on the country. The Screener can be offered for free through the government, or can be bought at the pharmacy, or be provided by a general practitioner or gynaecologist.”

    “Where is the Delphi Screener available?
    We are currently using the Screener in many countries around the world to collect local information on the use (Netherlands, Finland, Italy, Germany, Malta, USA, Singapore).”

  2. Alex says:

    It’s not really related to this subject, exactly- but did you hear about doctors in the U.K. trying to get KITCHEN KNIVES BANNED?! They are so into micro-managing people’s lives that they think somoene shouldn’t even have kitchen knives.

    Supposedly, it’s because they are used in attacks- but what is someone supposed to grab if they get attacked? As it is, guns are a huge controversy & so are regular knives (but fixed & folding). For some reason BOWHUNTING is illegal in Britain, too. Better amputate people’s hands because they could use those to protect & provide for themselves!

    What happened to England? I don’t know if Scotland or Wales is like this or if they’re blanketed by all this “rubbish” (as they call it), but it’s getting to the point where it seems like they or someone else wants them to curl up in a ball & die! For fuck’s sake, it’s things like this that people went to outright WAR for! This wasn’t even always against a foreign enemy & after at least 1000 years of history, you’d think the lesson would be learned.

    I’m only a little Irish & English, but it still gets me a bit cranked-up. One of my cousins is in London right now, actually. I’m starting to get worried that she’ll get all kinds of shit aimed at her like she would in America. Maybe she’s got too pointy of a pen or something.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Alex, you’re 100% right! Not only in UK, but also in Australia. Back when the “do-gooders” in Australia got guns banned, and ordered all be turned in and destroyed, the next thing on “protect society from itself” menu was, you guessed it, knives. These were also described as “killing machines.” Laws were discussed which provided police access to knock on anybody’s door and inspect that all knives were placed under lock and key.

      What is society coming to? The lawmakers and police disarm us, claiming it’s how we need to be protected from ourselves. Hundreds of people die each year waiting for help on 911. Meanwhile, the same police beat, abuse, kill, and loot the people they are protecting. Laws are regularly violated by those who enforce them. And the media rarely covers these stories, unless there’s fresh bloody film. And the cops make sure to destroy cameras and film if they can. If you want real news on this, check out http://www.nranews.org. At least the US NRA is truthful.

      Meanwhile, Islamists everywhere are torturing, raping, murdering in the name of their religion. I just discovered the Islamist child drugging and molest network in UK. And in the Middle East, there’s talk of bringing back sex slave markets, where captured infidel women are sold off, to be used and disposed when no longer desired. It’s in the Koran… If there is a new ten-state Islamist union formed with Turkey as its head, this is the beginning of End-Times Prophecy. Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, John, Revelations are being played out before our lives. Within 10 yrs, immigrant muslims will have voting majorities in Europe. Multiculturilism does not work when the immigrants do not want to assimilate. Happens in US, everywhere. And nobody dare report it in the news.

  3. Ro says:

    I keep up-to-date on politics via different political blogs as I find those to be the most unbiased. Today, however, people were discussing health care on one of those blogs and the following conversation was in the comments:

    Comment 1: “I’m a medical student. Most of us are, in fact, at least partially motivated by money. A MD/DO is a straight one way ticket to upper middle class at least. Sure, we want to help people, but we also want the money. Anyone who tells you different is lying through their teeth.”

    Comment 2: “That’s what I figured. I work in the medical field and the doctors who aren’t in it for the money are few and far between, and there’s nothing wrong with that.”

    There you have it ladies (and gents). Straight from the horse’s mouth. People wonder why there are those of us who think that doctors do things for incentives or more money. People wonder why we think their primary focus isn’t to actually help people heal, but to make money. Maybe because it’s true and they even admit to it. I’m so aggravated by this. I know we’ve all discussed it here before, about money being a big deciding factor in how doctors handle things (and these comments only serve to validate those assumptions), but to actually see those in the medical field admit to it is particularly awful. I am so horrified by this. And in regards to “there’s nothing wrong with that”, there’s SO MUCH wrong with that. The fact that they think there’s nothing wrong with doing something that involves the well-being of others for money just goes to show how twisted the “logic” in the medical field is. Good grief.

    • Moo says:

      Yes most people do work for money.

      The car mechanic, the hair stylist, the medical doctor all provide services for which they get paid. They can recommend services that I do not want and I feel that I can decline. They all deal with safety issues such as a car machanic can deem a car unsafe to keep it off the road, a hair stylist might refuse to colour a person’s hair with a known allergy to hair dye. But is this all similar to the medical profession? A doctor could ask a few screening questions that lead to a sleep study and someone is diagnosed with sleep apnea. They are told they have to attend further appointments and purchase an expensive CPAP machine (though no way of determining if they are using it) or the doctor will have their driver’s licence suspended. For many people taking their ability to legally drive means much hardship.

      Anyway I am really sick of MDs ranting on about how long and expensive their education is. It should be paid for by public funds as all education should be. Any number of professions such as hair stylist, car mechanic also has to be licenced and pay rent etc. there is really no excuse for the medical profession to give such lousey customers choice and bad customer service.

      • Ro says:

        Moo – I personally think there is a huge difference between hair stylists/car mechanics/etc. and doctors. The first big difference is that car mechanics and hair stylists do not directly affect the well-being and health of any human being (I say they don’t DIRECTLY affect people because while a mechanic could make a mistake and mess up someone’s car creating potential dangers, and a hair stylist could potentially dye someone’s hair which would cause them to have an allergic reaction, neither of these were done for money or ulterior motives, they were just unfortunate mistakes as everyone is human). If they include more than what is necessary to get more money, no human being has actually been harmed in the process. Furthermore, when is the last time you met a car mechanic or hair stylist whose main motivation was money? I can’t remember. Every one that I’ve encountered has been passionate about and enjoyed those things, then decided to pursue them as a career. Of course they need money to sustain themselves and of course everyone works for money to an extent, the point is that their motivation to enter into those specific fields was NOT money. It was their interest in the field. If they were in it for money, hair stylists and car mechanics would have entered a more lucrative field such as law or the medical field. In the case of a stylist refusing to dye someone’s hair because they have an allergy, that is common sense. Besides which, it is perfectly legal and possible for someone to dye their hair on their own accord. There isn’t any barrier one must go through to get the dye. You can even buy professional grade dye from beauty supply stores. If a mechanic deems a car unsafe to drive, you can trust that it really is unsafe to drive. They don’t make money off of someone not driving. If everyone was off the roads then they would be out of business entirely. That is just my opinion on the matter though.


        I agree that the medical field gives lousy customer’s choice and bad customer service. However, there seems to be a sense of entitlement that comes with the degree, because they were in school for so long and did spend out so much money.

  4. Moo says:

    A surgeries a procedure that repairs the cervix and even treats cervicla cancer. It is largely ignored. This article also explains why freezing, burning the cervix and cone biopsies which are done after a bad Pap test result are so damaging and really not necessary.

    http://cervicalrepair.yolasite.com/summary.php

  5. Moo says:

    Herbal treatments of the cervix. What LEEP actually does and the cervix does not grow back. The damage is permanent. See these photos.

    http://www.drnick.net/index.php?p=341255

  6. Moo says:

    There is some talk of urine tests for HPV becoming available soon. If this is a doctor office only test it is actually worse. The standard unrine test (just leave the little cup there with your name on it) is going to mean more nonconsented testing that is reported to the government registry for women where I live. It is going to be more harassment for further “investigations” and reporting of cancer cases (no vacation travel insurance, job security etc). I already had one doctor do unconsented STI tests on my sample that I left for what I thought was a bladder infection.

    So what I can do is take the lab form and the bottle home and deliver it myself to the lab. Or just totally not go to doctors at all.

    We need private confidential testing and treatments by our choice. Not forced coerced tests.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Moo, yourself and Elizabeth are just amazing in the info you discover and medical practices you elucidate us to knowing. I am forever grateful to the efforts made here. This reminds me of Joan Rivers dying due to things being performed that she never gave advance consent to do.

      Could you please remind me how you know that HPV cannot be latent? My husband has mouth cankers all his life. Now and then I get a cold sore; these are caused by a herpes virus. The herpes virus apparently lives somewhere in either our mouths or nerve system and attacks…

      Where does the HPV virus hide out? Just in the area where it chooses to infect? And if our bodies beat it off, or if it’s otherwise killed by medical treatment, it it truly gone forever?

      I’m going to make my gyne appt soon, and see if I get the Delphi or something else. There won’t be a pelvic done. The doctor already knows and has agreed… Thanks in advance!

      • Moo says:

        Wow I have to keep repeating the same information.

        I could not find any published scientific study that proves that HPV can be a latent infection in the genitals in the way that the Herpes virus stays latent in the nerve cells. There is only a paper that was published that suggests a theory of latency of HPV. A theory that was not proven.

        There are over 100 strains of HPV that infect humans. Some give people foot warts and some only infect the genitals. Some people might have more than one strain of HPV at one time or have serial infections with different strains at different times in their life. The theory is that immunity against a particular strain should be long lasting otherwise how would the vaccines work? But then I have read that the vaccines really do not work as well as they should be and the there are the side effects.

        HPV tests are either positive or negative for certain high risk strains all lumped together or with separate test results for HPV 16 and 18 since those are going with the vaccine.

        Often the body’s immune system will fight off the HPV infection within a few years. Sometimes the viral DNA will get into body cells and change them into cancer cells which will divide until they are tumors. Some herbs do help fight HPV infection. Diet, exercise and stopping smoking also help the immune system. The medical “cure” for HPV infection is either cutting out tissue, burning with laser, heat or chemicals or freezing to destroy tissue. However this “cure” does not kill off any random infected cells or cells that have turned into cancer cells unless they are removed by the destruction. Some women will have LEEP more than once and their cervical dysplasia comes back. Some ointments are available for genital warts outside the body but drugs for internal (such as inside the vagina or cervix) are only at the experimental stage.

        Being immune suppressed puts a person at risk of getting any type of infection and dying from it. These are organ transplant patients, cancer patients receiving conventional therapies, HIV victims, very old or young and sometimes pregnant women.

        The interesting fact is that young women tend to have HPV infections while the cancer in women over 50 is higher. So what is happening that women get reinfected or get different strains when they are older that their immune system cannot fight off? HPV infected cells turned cancer cell grow quickly or not since this maybe has not been studied. If the cell DNA was changed then there is something that turned on the cancer genes but no one understand this.

        I do not know your situation. Just decide what you want from a doctor. Get the facts and if you feel that a Pap test, HPV test or pelvic exam is right for you then do that. If you do not, then don’t. It’s your body.

  7. Mint says:

    Taken from a web page of a GP surgery in the UK…….

    “Under certain conditions we may be able to issue repeat prescriptions of the contraceptive pill without the need to see a doctor or nurse.

    You may apply for a repeat prescription of the same contraceptive pill if

    you are aged between 18 and 35
    you are currently taking certain contraceptive pills that have been prescribed by a GP at our practice. The list of pills is available on the application form.
    you have had your blood pressure and weight measured in the last year, either in the practice or by a health professional, and these are within safe limits.
    you have had a cervical smear test within the last three years.
    you are happy with your current pill and have no problems or side effects”

    It would appear that the doctors and nurses at this surgery missed the day at medical school when informed consent was discussed.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Mint, I found something similar on a website here, so it seems some doctors are still using the Pill to mislead women into pap testing. I tried to lodge a complaint and was shuffled from one place to another, they make it as hard as possible. Instead I sent my complaint straight to the Clinic, received no response.
      Everyone in medicine knows this goes on…and everyone ignores it, it protects the program, helps reach the target securing target payments…and it’s “for our own good”. Incredible that respecting women’s legal rights and adhering to proper ethical standards appears to be too difficult in women’s healthcare. No one has clean hands here, the GPs have often received tips from the Govt/screening authority on ways to increase coverage, achieving a target will clash with informed consent. So when coverage is the only consideration, all of these tactics are over-looked or justified as necessary to save lives etc.
      Mint, I’d send the UK Medical Council a link to the website and make a formal complaint. Discussion and concerns about informed consent in women’s cancer screening are more advanced in the UK, I think they’d be forced to take action.
      It’s only when doctors are challenged that they’ll change their behaviour. Sadly, they’ve been getting away with this sort of outrageous conduct for far too long.
      When a woman is led to believe a pap test is a clinical requirement for the Pill, she’s been misled into the test, that IMO, negates all consent and is a serious matter. Doctors are so bold and comfortable flouting our legal rights they even include the evidence on their websites. It will take a long time to change the current thinking and conduct, but it starts when we challenge, report, complain and reject.

    • adawells says:

      We only have a choice of 2 GP surgeries in our area, and I am sure that before about 2010, the wording on their websites always said “all new female patients will be given a smear test”. After my smear test from hell in 1997 I repeatedly looked to change doctor, but was trapped by only being able to select surgeries in our catchment area, and both said that all new women patients would be given a smear test. As we have the larger practice near us I stayed where I was, as I started to realise that if you saw someone who wasn’t your named GP, they never bothered you for smear tests. It may have been because their 80% target had to be from only those on their list, and they gained nothing in screening someone elses patient.

      I’ve noticed that both practices have since updated their websites and this has now been taken off. However, I did recently get an application form for another practice, which asked when my last smear test was, so the pressure may still be there, but just not on the website anymore.
      I’ve also noticed that surgeries are switching to online appointments and repeat prescriptions, and I do not know what would happen if a woman tried to book repeat pill prescriptions without a smear test. Maybe the doctor can set it to refuse a renewal if the smear test hasn’t been done? Perhaps other posters can let us know?

      I’ve also noticed at my practice that there are no leaflets or even a mention of cervical screening, even on the well woman noticeboard in the waiting room, anymore.

      At the gyn department at the hospital, I have recently had to attend, one whole noticeboard had been covered in a ghastly bright pink promotional display for cervical screening. It looked like a load of pink vomit on the wall. Buried amongst it were the small words “Informed consent”, which annoyed me intensely, because once informed you may decide not to consent. Always they assume consent will be given. However, at my last appointment, this wall display was looking decidedly scrappy, with a lot of bits missing, and someone had changed this little notice to read “Informed choice”.

      Change is definitely in the air.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I’ve now sent a complaint to the Medical Ombudsman about that statement, “women on the Pill need pap tests”. We’ll see what they have to say…but I think we’re a long way behind the UK. A spokesman for the AMA said last year that he doubted many doctors would prescribe the pill without a current pap test on file. No one challenged that statement, basically a doctor still tying the Pill to elective cancer screening and I assume refusing the Pill if a woman exercised her legal right and declined the test. Coercion = no consent at all.
        No one, as far as I’m aware, (and I looked!) had a problem with this statement coming from the AMA. So hardly surprising GPs are happy to promote pap testing as a clinical requirement for the Pill. It seems some doctors are still treating women like second class citizens, while others are far more respectful. I also, doubt most of our doctors would share the opinion of the male doctor speaking for the AMA. I’ve heard from a few women who’ve faced pressure here, have been misled, but coercion is risky, if a woman complains, you’re in trouble, you cannot refuse the Pill simply because a woman chooses not to have elective cancer screening.
        My GP does not have breast or cervical screening brochures in her waiting room, they were removed many years ago.

  8. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/women-risk-their-lives-skipping-biannual-pap-smear-test-while-they-wait-for-a-new-five-year-test/story-fneuz9ev-1227064479561

    Women here are apparently waiting for the new program to start in 2016, so we’re being told we’re risking our lives “avoiding” 2 yearly pap testing.
    Honestly, the lies will continue, it doesn’t take much research to find 2 yearly pap testing just fills up day procedure, I suppose they want to “treat” as many as possible before the program is changed. They’re still likely to do well under our new program, lots of young women will still be referred, biopsied and “treated”.
    Who could ever trust these programs? They promote what they KNOW is BAD medical advice, that can only end up harming and worrying a lot of women.
    Needless to say, you can’t leave a comment.
    Thankfully, many women will now see straight through this self-serving nonsense, they can no longer assume we’re all trusting and sensitive to their “warnings”, we’re no longer putty in their hands. More of us know exactly what’s going on….

    • Alex says:

      So, somoene actually says that they doubt that a doctor would prescribe this without having this exam on file- yet, if someone were to say: “I doubt any doctor would prescribe this without trying to coerce women into all kinds of invasive tests,” that’s someone misrepresenting them? Ever notice how they play victim all the damn time, too? I guess they DO feel persecuted for the shit they do.

      Cops do the same shit. Actually, I remember an article where a cop was basically saying “You know, people don’t trust us but doctors kill WAY more people than we do.” He’s probably right, but they both play all kinds of “woe is me” shit when THEY do something.

      Another thing is that they always claim massive amounts of expertise, yet nothing is their fault when it doesn’t go right. What is everybody supposed to be? Dupes? They have all kinds of knowledge one minute, then they didn’t give bad information when it works out as a fucking catastrophe?!

    • adawells says:

      This is so typical of tabloid news stories. So women are “confused” are they? Sounds to me like Aussie women are better informed than this reporter is about screening and the press are the ones who are confused. They write about how this woman’s cancer was picked up by the pap test, when the woman’s doctor says it was a good job, she didn’t wait for her pap test or she would be dead. So in other words it wasn’t the pap test at all which found her cancer. Her case completely contradicts the news story.

      This happens all the time and makes me so angry. Some people develop rare agressive forms of cancer, which no amount of screening would have found, but they then go on a moral crusade, often getting lucrative contracts with the tabloid press to promote a screening test, which is nothing to do with their type of cancer. The breast cancer charity Coppafeel is the breast equivalent of Jo’s Cervical Trust, and targets the under 30’s petrifying them with terrifying stories of extremely rare cases. It’s disgusting that young women are targeted in this way.

    • Moo says:

      There is a link to another headline “urine test for cervical cancer” but it is a urine test for HPV. Having an HPV infection is not the same as having cancer.

    • Moo says:

      The article quotes a doctor saying that women find Pap tests intrusive but they go for bikini waxes every 6 weeks. Sorry no comparison. and anyway I have never had anyone wax my bikini line.

    • adawells says:

      This item came out 3 days ago, and Julia Brotherton seems to be saying that Aussie women can take the vaginal swab themselves in 2016. Am I reading this correctly?

      http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2014/s4089315.htm?

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        I read that piece too Ada, if that’s the case they’ve kept it very quiet. I suspect they’ll do everything to pressure women into the program, and self-testing options will only be offered as a last resort for very “hard-to-reach” women.
        Of course, I’m not interested in testing at all, so they can “offer” what they like, no deal.
        I doubt my doctor will even mention self-testing to me. She knows if I’d wanted to self-test, I’d have done so years ago. I work in Singapore now and then and the Screener has been available there for a few years now.
        The problem here is they point blank refuse to view screening as a choice for women, I’m sure we’ll see the argument, what objection could you have to self-testing?
        Note if a woman tests HPV+ here (and we’ll be testing women from 25, so lots will test HPV+) they’ll be pressured to have a colposcopy and biopsy, when all they should be offered is a 5 yearly pap test. (until they clear the virus)
        I think we should always view screening in a broad way, not as a test, but as the possible beginning of a cascade of further testing, biopsies or treatments or even being over-diagnosed and facing unnecessary chemo, radiation etc.
        It is never a simple, life-saving test, it can be the start of an absolute nightmare and may even take your life.

      • adawells says:

        Clearly, there are going to be major overhauls to cervical screening in 2016 by a number of countries, but we’ve had very little news about any changes planned for the UK system. We have a general election coming up next May, and I think this is part of the reason. There was a good article from the Metro newspaper about the urine test for HPV. I’ve been trying to find a link, but I can’t find the article online. It was a good article, because it was honest that the invasive test was unacceptable to women, and there was no propaganda input from the cancer charities saying it’s quick and painless and could save your life, etc. I am sure the UK is keeping things under wraps, because knowing something better was on the horizon, would cause the present programme to collapse.

  9. Ro says:

    Just wanted to clarify on my most recent comment that I don’t find living in the same area as those dealing with poverty unfortunate, rather I find poverty and the fact that so many people are suffering from it, particularly in heavily populated areas, unfortunate. I just reread what I wrote and it sounded horrible because I didn’t word it correctly.

    Also, I accidentally typed my email address in the name spot a few scenes ago and didn’t double check it before commenting. It’s not necessary to approve that comment. If it does become approved, then please ignore the stupid email address because I made it when I was in high school LOL.

  10. Ro says:

    Seconds* not scenes. I’m not having any luck with typing today.

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