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Hang on to your knickers and read what a Doctor has to say on the subject of pap smears and pelvic exams. What follows is a comment from Blogcritics.org written by a Doctor that uncovers an honest and all-male point of view (Warning: may be disturbing to some readers):Apr 07, 2010 at 4:08 am
Hello,
I’ve read several of the posts here, and just wanted to get a few things off my chest . . .
I am a doctor myself, in a smallish town in the midwest. I’m in a specialty where we do not do pelvic exams, but of course I was trained in how to do them while in medical school. It has always bothered me, for a couple of reasons, but the male/female thing has been the main thing originally. I always got a small, secret thrill out of doing a pelvic exam (or a breast exam, for that matter) on an attractive woman. Because we were told that “it’s not sexual,” “it’s just a medical procedure, nothing sexual about it, no reason to have sexual thoughts,” I though I was weird. I didn’t worry that much because I knew I wasn’t going into an area where I would do exams, but…
Then, during residency, I worked with a lot of doctors in the community, and discovered that, for most of them, it WAS at least partly sexual: they would sit around in the lounges and such and sometimes discuss the anatomy of beautiful women who’d been in, and on two occasions discussed, in front me and everyone else, the sexual anatomy attributes of women who worked in the hospital, nurses and such that were mutual acquaintances. I was horrified! I have to say, too, that many doctors, when I asked (because it bothered me), talked about it like, “Oh, it’s just another test to have to do, kind of boring, really.”
Still, the inescapable fact is that a guy likes to look at a naked woman. Period. Doctors are no different. They like to look at naked women, too. So, if they get PAID to look–I mean, really LOOK–at a woman’s sexual organs, and even better, they get to touch them, well… So much the better! I’m not saying that doctors do exams just to get a sexual thrill, because the circumstances really don’t allow a full-out sexual experience, but given a choice between doing a lung exam on an 80-year-old guy or a pelvic exam on an attractive 30-year-old woman, I’d say most docs would MUCH rather do the latter. They’re only human. They would flatly deny having any such thoughts (in most cases), but deep down, they ARE men, after all.
So, I think sometimes part of what prompts docs to urge women to have more testing is, that secretly they kind of like doing it. The money doesn’t hurt (i.e., they get paid to do it). In terms of pap smears being unnecessary for post-hysterectomy women, they also probably often just don’t know–there are several things in my specialty which GPs do wrong, all the time, even though they should know better. The ACOG recommends that even without doing pap smears, women have pelvic exams regularly, to screen for various cancers that are of very little risk. I’m sure part of that is just the “hyperscreening” that we’ve gotten sucked into, part of it is the money, and part is the male domination of women (gives you a great chance to stand there, fully clothed, with a woman who is naked and in a vulnerable position), and the chance to look at and touch naked women.
My wife (my second wife) and I got married last year, just past age 50 (for both of us). She had a hysterectomy (for benign disease) nearly 20 years ago. Before we married, she got kind of funny one day, then when I asked about what was wrong she admitted that she had had to make an appointment to “get my pap smear,” which she felt guilty for missing for the previous few years. I informed her she didn’t need one any more, and she told me I was wrong, that her gyn had told her she DID need them YEARLY, even though she’d had a hysterectomy. I showed her the research and persuaded her not to go back, ever, to that gyn.
Later, in looking at her records myself, I find that she had a small cyst removed from her back a few years ago. The surgeon did a complete pelvic exam as part of the physical before surgery. A VERY complete pelvic exam. There was no need for that (he did NOT record anything other than lungs, heart, breasts, and pelvic exam on his H&P report). A couple of years later she had a small cyst removed from her shoulder. THAT surgeon (a different one) did a complete breast exam as part of her H&P. My wife works in the hospital, with all these doctors (she’s in administration). She had her first colonoscopy last year, and the GI doc did a complete pelvic exam as part of her exam. Again, no medical reason to do that. She is not unattractive (not a magazine-model stunner, but attractive–I think she’s the most attractive woman in the world, but realistically she’s average attractiveness).
In my office, I am now doing a small study. I’ve asked women who come in (either as patients or as family members of patients) who are aged 30-60, who have had hysterectomies, whether they have continued to have pap smears/pelvic exams and whether their doc has recommended they still have them. I rank them as “attractive,” “not unattractive,” or “unattractive,” being aware this is a judgement call and not really PC (but the ones I’ve judged “unattractive,” I think everyone would agree, are really not attractive at all). So far, I’ve had 14 women agree to answer my questions, and the results have stunned me: of the 4 unattractive ones, all were told they no longer need to have pap smears/pelvic exams, because of their hysterectomies (even though for one, the hyst’y was for cancer, meaning she DOES need to continue exams). Of the 4 “not unattractive,” 3 have continued to have paps/pelvics irregularly (not yearly but every few years, at least), and 2 told me their doc told them they needed them, in one case “yearly” (and her doc was the same one who told 2 of the unattractive ones not to bother with exams any more, including the 1 who had had cancer)–the other 2 never asked and were never told anything by their doc. Of the “attractive” ones (all of whom had hyst’y for benign disease), only 2 have continued paps/pelvics, but all told me their doctors have continually told them they need to come in for regular exams, including pap smears and pelvic exams (interestingly, all but 1 had the same doctor who’d told 2 unattractive ladies not to come back). My wife’s (previous) gyn had told one of the unattractive ladies not to have further paps/pelvics, and 1 of the attractive ones she really, really needs them regularly (and she has, until our discussion).
Make your own judgement there, but that’s one more reason to be skeptical of attempts to get women to have regular exams. If I were a woman, I would not go to a male doc for such an exam, ever. http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/
forwomenseyesonly 
Thank you so much for sharing your experience
All my life I felt strange to have a male Dr. gyn
I once experienced the same unease feeling with a female Doctor she was extremely rough later on I was told she is a Dyke ! Its important to listen to your gut feeling, intuitive self. If one doesn’t feel comfortable you must leave !
I have walked out and we must seek second opinions
I was given false STD results by a respected GYN in NY { identifying information removed by moderator }. I was devistated and broke my 5 year relationship, she will ask why you wanted to have a complete exam and will have a way of making one feel uncomfortable with her questions. I listen to my intuition now more than ever ! Thanks for sharing .
Check out this article, Yearly Pap Smears Still The Norm Despite Revised Recommendations (http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112893637/annual-pap-smears-still-norm-070913). The picture in this article was very disturbing because a male doctor is between a woman’s legs. It makes me sick to think about a male gynecologist doing pap smears on women.
The truth is so many unnecessary pap smears are done. I commented at the bottom.
Misty
Misty, thank you for the link! I saw your comment at the bottom when I first visited the site, but now it is no longer there. It was a great comment BTW. Could it have been censored?
Sue,
Yes, I suspect it might have been censored. I’m pretty blunt in my comments. Some webmasters and moderators do not like people questioning the medical profession. It is frustrating when my comments are censored because I want to educate people about the truth.
Misty
I only go to female drs because I’m not comfortable with male drs. I think it has to do with being abused as a child. i go to all female drs; That includes female dentists (I’ve read too many news stories about women being raped at the dentists while being under sedation), female optometrists, I once read of a dr that liked to put his penis on the eye exam machine because he got a special thrill when he knew their eyes were resting on a piece of machine that had his penis resting on it just before she walked in, I’ve read too many horror stories so I go to female drs.
That said my own very first gyno exam was done by a woman. I was 15 & looking for birth control. I have since been married for over ten hrs and have had five children and somehow seem to still be very (uhm) “narrow” down there. Even after five vginal births my husband still struggle because of this narrowness, sex is sometimes uncomfortable because of the lack or room. . Anyway, when I was 15 & having my first pap, I remember saying owe, not loudly but I was in a lot of pain and trying so hard to stay still and be a “good patient” for my pap with the female dr who was a much older woman, past 50 at least, she said “oh please cut it out! If you can take a d*#¥ you can take a forcep & q-tip” then she squeezed my leg very hard (to which I grimaced in pain) and she said “it doesn’t hurt anymore then this, stop being a baby will you?” I felt so sick & humiliated.
Another tragedy often ignored: from my experience with talking to women who have had an abortion the stories don’t change much there either. Drs and nurses treating them like yesterday’s discarded, rotted meat. Often making snide comments at & about them, not answering questions, lying, omitting information including what pain and symptoms they’d experience later, physically being treated brutally even while having an I.V inserted, laughing & making jokes at, etc… Women are usually so broken and traumatized by the event & yet there too when one woman tries to tell another about her experience they’re told to shut up, to stop lying or to grow up.
[…] https://forwomenseyesonly.com/2012/09/09/the-other-side-of-the-speculum-a-male-doctors-point-of-view/ […]
When I was pregnant ( i was about 37 1/2 wks) i had a regularly scheduled dr appt. in the am and when i got there they checked everything out well i know it only takes a couple fingers to tell how dilated a woman is and only maybe like 2-3 minutes? correct me if im wrong! This Dr. practically has half his arm up in there and even my husband was starting to get a little agitated and moving closer to say something to him because we looked up at him and his eyes were literally rolled completely back nothing but white! it was the weirdest thing! later it just pissed my husband off more and he wished he had something. I ended up being told my water had broken ( at like 4 in the morning i thought i just had to pee a lot! lol) and i was sent to L&D.
Dialation is meaningless- women can be dialated all kinds of dimensions for all kinds of time & it is not an indicator of when labor will begin (like stomach drop is, for instance. There’s a lot of things like that with pregnancy. There’s a great deal of things that cause problems, that other things are a compensation for, which may cause worse problems in themselves- all the while these might be in direct contradiction to the woman’s objections. They go and cause the problems somebody’s worried about having them around to prevent or fix.
By-the-way: I presume your husband is in the military, given your name. Have you ever had someone try to back you into a pelvic exam in order to go overseas? I remember hearing about the wife of a soldier getting forced into that so she could get clearance to go overseas where he was stationed. Don’t really know why she’d need any clearance at all, but maybe the military was being dictatorial at an expanded range? It certainly seems like they impose these things on women that are in the military (don’t know what happens if she refuses, but it wouldn’t suprise me if that was treated as a crime or reacted to with direct confrontation). This is in America, by-the-way.
My most traumatic exam was when I was 19 and pregnant. The doctor wanted to do a breast exam and vaginal exam to check the age of the foetus. I agreed. An elderly lady chaperone was present. I was wearing just a t-shirt and pants. I removed my pants and was not offered anything to cover me with.
The traumatic part was that while he was doing the breast exam and then the vaginal exam, 2 student nurses walked in to observe. I felt terribly violated. No one had asked for my consent. The student nurses stood so close in front of my legs. I felt utterly embarrassed.
16 years have passed now. But this episode still depresses me. It felt like medical rape. Because I was not respected as a person, just a body on a table.
I need to know how to get over this.
I never heard of a doctor doing a breast exam to determen pregnancy. Now they use that dildo like ultra sound. thats terible.
Sadly I can but agree, when first married, my wife visited my older doctor who I trusted. She was still in her late teens and we were both naive and trusting. He undressed her himself and she was made to remain without a gown during her exam and sexually molested, never knowing whether it was “her” misunderstanding or inappropriate behaviour from the doctor. She was told to have her breasts examined for lumps every 3 months and was always given an internal exam by him at that time too. She was scared and told no-one until he indicated he wanted to have intercourse with her during an internal examination and she stopped attending despite his threats. Years later when I discovered it, I was incensed but the old man had died.I agree with the general opinion in these posts. A female doctor should provide examination of a woman’s body, with the exception of trauma medicine of course.
Why should trauma medicine be an exception? Either way, they shouldn’t be attacking people in trauma medicine either. Just because there’s an emergency situation doesn’t mean it’s fine to act in whatever way is different from normal. High intensity of situation doesn’t generate a loophole to reality where someone molests someone else, but that isn’t what happened. A situation is what it consists of.
Justawoman
I am sorry to hear of your horrible experience. I and many others on this site have had similar violating experiences with the medical profession and we understand how distressing this can be and how difficult it is to forget about it. Not only did you have the chaperone there, the doctor decided to use you as a training tool for the student nurses, without your consent. Effectively you were used as just a collection of body parts without any consideration of how you felt about it.
I can’t answer your question on how to get over it as we are all very different, but I can only tell you that for me it has been immensely helpful finding other women who have understood my feelings of violation. I bottled it up for decades, because there was no one to talk to, no one who understood or wanted to understand. Many of the ‘well woman’ sites seem to be teeming with women who mock and bully those who don’t go along with the ‘programme’, saying it is all part of being a woman etc. I don’t believe feeling violated is all part of being a woman and I will no longer be bullied or coerced into anything I don’t want to do.
It also has helped me to research the effectiveness of well woman exams and tests, to decide my own risk factors and effectively take control of my own body. I cannot undo the things they did to me, but I can make sure that in the future they are never repeated.
I hope someone responds to this soon. I am 17, my girlfriend (16) has been having ovarian cysts and she might have to get a pelvic exam. It bugged me before because I didn’t want doctors violating my girlfriend and now after reading this it is even worse. I cant for the life of me figure out how a pelvic exam helps out any more than an ultrasound would other than giving her gyn a boner. And my girlfriend is super beautiful so I really don’t want any male doctor down there! I honestly think some male doctors just want to take advantage of women and feel them up. I felt really selfish doing it but I told her do everything you can to avoid one and only do it if there is nothing else they can do. I just don’t get why it is necessary, and I also hate the thought of some stranger looking at my gf’s vagina and sticking his fingers up in there! I mean who could blame me. We arent sexually active and most importantly she is still a virgin ( I think that is my biggest problem with it) it bugs me so bad. What do I do??? I mean I live two hours away from her so its not like I can go to the doctors with her or anything to talk to them about it. But her female doctor said a pelvic exam would be the absolute last resort. I just hate thinking a stranger is going to be basically raping my gf to tell her what an ultrasound or something like that could.
It absolutely unclear how a pelvic exam is supposed to help in case of ovarian cysts. Looks like some old-fashioned scam. Pelvic exams shouldn’t performed on virgins anyway. Your feelings and fears are absolutely legitimate.
Your girlfriend should demand that the doctors explain her in every detail what procedures they are planning to do, and, most importantly, why exactly those procedures are needed. She shouldn’t sign any forms or “consents” without carefully reading them. And if there is anything in the text she doesn’t like or doesn’t want, she shout object and cross it out. If any medical practitioners tries to talk bull$hit that she can’t alter the consent forms, don’t believe that: it’s your girlfriend’s body and she has every legal right to decide what is done to her. The is no “must” in medicine for patients, no matter what the doctors say.
If a doctor says or promises something that is hard to believe, ask them to put it in writing and sign it. The quacks are very good at making us to sign papers, but they rarely so keen on signing same in return.
The best tactics for dealing with doctors is:
– know the facts,
– know your rights,
– be confident,
– don’t sign anything without fully understanding it,
– don’t rely on verbal promises of something important to you – tell them to put it in writing and sign it,
– don’t make big decisions without thinking it through or getting a second opinion.
Never thought of getting them to put something in writing & sign it. Good idea, Romina!
A similar one is recording things (a cell phone on record in her bag/jecket/whatever would probably work)- I forgot about that. There’s all kinds of watches & pens & such that can do that (as well as have camcorder functions). I remember reading about a doctor that wore a recording pen as a necklace (guess what profession?). Another one I forgot is someone supportive to go with her if she goes to anyone. Someone that won’t act as the doctor’s back-up & will back up your girlfriend’s decisions.
Read all of this, okay? First, look on the other threads on this site. I can’t remember which one, but I definitely remember it being mentioned a couple of times. Elizabeth & Kleigh seem to know a lot about that sort of thing. It seems that those cysts just come & go and don’t mean anything. Either way, there are EXTERNAL ultrasound/sonar type of things that can detect that (because they do try to ambush women with internal ones frequently). I remember being told numerous times that a pelvic exam is NOT a viable method of detecting ovarian cancer. There’s numerous risks & inaccuracies to things they “suggest” to women, so maybe this turns into a problem (or they try to add something else in that has their own problems, plus one thing can lead to another). Have her visit this site, at the very least- but I’ll tell you some things to help in the mean time:
Any interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (the variation doesn’t matter & it’s just called “iatrogenic detriment” when it’s a medical style of doing something). If a doctor poisoned someone with a needle, it’s still murder- a situation is what it consists of. It would probably still be a problematic methodology, even if it was a means to an end & wasn’t imposed- given the nature of what’s involved. It’s not immature to have bodily autonomy or go by your alignment on things (a lot of people seem to think that their alignment on a situation isn’t a factor to base a decision on & that’s not true). Neither is being skeptical of doctors (after all, they do make more money if you have a problem & can very well have whatever pervy reasons behind things- women included). Tell her these things or tell her that you want her to read something you saw when looking things up.
I’ve posted numerous things on this type of subject & would be more than happy to talk about things with your girlfriend if she wants. An important thing to consider is that it is an inherent right to be inviolable. It may very well turn into the doctor lying, telling, or physically forcing something on her.
They do tend to tell women “you don’t get this without that” with birth control & that’s not even legal. They say “this is our policy” & they don’t make their own decisions that this is something they’re GOING to do. Keep in mind: an action has to be engaged in order to occur, it doesn’t just mystically appear (so someone saying “need, must, have to, will be having” doesn’t mean anything- that’s just trying to convey the impression of a fixed situation, as if there exists no capacity for reality to “unfurl” any other way). It’s also not inherently part of being a woman (that’s like saying a punch in the face is an inherent part of being married- it’s an interjected action).
Logan, both myself and my best friend have had Gyn issues over the years. We’ve both undergone numerous pelvic exams & vaginal/abdominal ultrasounds in order to find the causes, but no problem was ever found by these methods.
I ended up having a laparoscopy (camera through the navel) and she had a hysteroscopy (camera passed into the womb via the vagina) and the causes of our problems were identified. I can’t say that either of us are better off for all the medical *care* we’ve received, though – ‘curing’ one problem seems to either have triggered other problems, or only offered temporary relief.
I think the pelvic exam is simply a bad habit which doctors refuse to give up – a throwback to the old days when it simply seemed like a good idea to feel for things. We have the means to actually see inside the body now – there is no need to go blindly groping around a woman’s womb these days. As far as I’m aware, a Gynaecologist does not have cameras in their fingertips, and judging by my own experience their so-called *knowledge* of the female form could be written on the back of a postage stamp.
My best friend was under the impression for some time that she only had one ovary because they only ever found one with the pelvics/ultrasounds. (She is overweight, though, which I believe makes it more difficult to *identify* everything. In which case, why bother doing those exams at all?). Yet when she had the hysteroscopy, ta dah, two ovaries!
I was in a (physical) relationship at the time I went through all those useless pelvic exams and found them extremely distressing – I can’t imagine what effect it would have had on me had I been a virgin at the time. Makes my blood run cold!
If I were in your GF’s situation I’d forget about doctors altogether and start looking for the answer myself. There are plenty of websites/forums where you can gain some knowledge or share experiences without being told you should ‘just trust your doctor’.
The gender of the healthcare provider doesn’t matter that much to me. When I was pushed into having intimate exams, I never felt any less violated when the nurse/doctor was a female, and I know from experience that female doctors can be misogynists too.
Yes, being ‘cared’ for by a female may ensure there’s no sexual overtones, but there’s no guarantee you won’t be taken advantage of anyway – Gynaecology is a billion-dollar industry and you may be pushed into tests/treatments you may not want or need in order to line the doctor’s pocket.
P.S. I wouldn’t take any comfort in the fact that your GF’s mom will be with her – she’s a faithful follower of this Gyn, right? So she’s not going to know if he tries to take advantage of her daughter, since he may have been doing the same to her for years. Don’t think for one minute that a sexual predator only goes after the pretty ones – I’m sure the power that these doctors have over vulnerable women is a turn-on in itself.
Thanks for all of the replies. Her female PA gave her a super fast one without visually examining anything with the speculum. She just felt a couple things real quick and got out. Everything felt alright according to her. Now they think she might have endometriosis or something of the sort and they did an ultrasound yesterday to determine what is wrong. Now she has to see a gynecologist (her moms but he is a guy btw) and I don’t know if that means she automatically needs another pelvic exam and all of that because of her problems or if he will just look at the results and determine what is wrong without getting all touchy feely. That is what I hope anyway. I am just totally against pelvic exams for any woman. If I was a doctor with an ultrasound machine I wouldn’t ever even think about using pelvic exams to diagnose patients! What makes me feel better is her mom will be in the room and it is a trusted man doing it (he has been her moms gyno for awhile) I just don’t see it necessary to perform one.
Logan,
I encourage you to ask your girlfriend to cancel her appt. with the male gynecologist. She should see a female gynecologist instead. You should print out this article about why women should avoid male doctors for intimate examinations at http://patientmodesty.org/avoidmaledocs.aspx. Also, check out tips about how women can prevent sexual abuse by male doctors at http://sexualmisconductbydoctors.com/femaletips.aspx. You should do whatever you can to protect your wife. It is very likely that the male doctor will want to do a pelvic exam or at least examine her vagina & cervix.
Misty
Maybe tell her about Mayan Uterine Massage. It’s an external stomach rub that she can do herself & seems to be useful for that (and a massive amount of other things). I’d definitely suggest she looks into natural things for whatever issues (at the very least, it’s something she can most likely do herself & will actually work- but it also reduces the oppurtunities for attack & deception).
Being trusted means nothing. Look at how someone could be a trusted member of the family, but also a child molestor. Do I even need to mention the whole “mother daughter” angle? It might very well mean getting another exam that she doesn’t feel right about after the fact & if this guy steers things in a problematic way or screws something up that’s going to be found out through experience.
It speaks well of you that you wouldn’t put women through things like that. Even as a means to an end it tends to be a problem.
Logan,
I wanted to let you know about a male doctor who used his watch to film female patients at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2406993/Wootton-Bassett-doctor-used-spycam-watch-film-intimate-examinations-banned-profession.html. You should show this case to your girlfriend. This is exactly why she should cancel her appt. with the male gynecologist. He could secretly film her without her ever knowing.
The comments that the mother made to her daughter when she expressed she felt degraded were very disturbing: Her mother assumed that they were talking and had not realised how long he had been intimately examining her daughter.
Her mother assumed that they were talking and had not realised how long he had been intimately examining her daughter.
Her mother said: ‘When she came out of the room, I commented on how long it had taken and she said she’d never felt so degraded in her life. I remember saying “Welcome to our world”, because all women have to endure that kind of thing at some point. I feel so stupid now.’
Misty
She should! I remember a story where a woman had, basically, ruined her daughter’s future. She dragged her kid into one thing (that her daughter had problems with & that cuased physical issues), then another thing (which she also had issues with & which also caused problems)- then her daughter would definitely have problems trying to have a family.
She actually had the audacity to explain that that was her way of trying to protect herself! As if this wouldn’t make sense & bears explaining! She didn’t want to do 10 minutes of research (which would be a pretty typical thing to do), didn’t want to look at doctors suspiciously (since they do make more money if they lie to you, cause problems, or just don’t fix them), didn’t want to think that them being dictatorial & imposing things of this nature is an issue (and, thus, not something to factor in as a sign of distrustability), and didn’t care on way or another about her daughter’s alignment on this situation. Now she feels so bad & wishes she protected her daughter better.
I don’t really get how women figure this is just what will happen. If this situation is not engaged, it doesn’t happen. Do they figure they just WILL be in a car crash at some point in life? No, of course not. If you don’t floor it into traffic, you won’t get that effect. How someone’s own mother can be that spiteful is beyond me. I’d think mommy would be the last person that would be that way. “Make sure the kid doesn’t drown in the pool so the doctor can attack them later, whatever that happens to mean.” I guess that’s the reasoning.
Logan,
I also noticed that your girlfriend is a virgin. Many male doctors have taken advantage of virgin girls. I encourage you to talk her about how she should not go to her mom’s male gynecologist. Did you know that some girls have been sexually abused by their ,mom’s male gynecologist? I would love to help your girlfriend. She can contact me at http://www.patientmodesty.org/contact.aspx.
Misty
I agree with patient modesty. I dont care if a male doctor is nice I personaly dont want any mans hands inside of me esp my husband. When I was 17 I had pain in my side I went to a walk in clinc with a male doctor. I felt rushed into a pelvic exam and had no idea that the doctor was going internaly. It turned out to be related to digestion and I feel now that other problems shouls have been ruled out first befor puting me thru that exam. At the time I was under my parents insureance and I now feel like he was trying to get paid for a pelvic. I knew it was not gyn related I could have told him that to starte off with had he informed me what a pelvic exam was. I regret leting that man touch me.
I’m sorry to hear that, Keligh. I’ve got to ask- since I’ve heard it so many times- when it starts to look like things are going that way, why don’t women put a stop to it? It becomes obvious, I’d think (when someone’s telling you to take your clothes off, much less get in more accessible positions, I’d figure that would set off some warning bells that something’s up). I know they ambush women a lot, but I’d think it’d still be the same reaction (just a lot faster). I’m not trying to blame the victim- I just don’t understand where the woman hits a snag.
I guess if women were taught to have bodily autonomy & that they should say “I refuse that procedure,” maybe it’d make things easier. It doesn’t matter waht they say back, you’re not striving for an agreement- just for things going your way. It doesn’t have to be replying in a harmonious manner. If they were to say something along the lines of “we need or you have to,” saying that you refuse doesn’t exactly blend- but it really doesn’t need to. If they say something is mandated or required, saying “your mandate/requisite is dissolved/abrogated.” “You are not permitted to do this procedure,” is another one. Saying that your “right to bodily autonomy is not abrogated in an emergency.” Making the point of terming something an “iatrogenic attack” tends to be a bit more scary than “that’s not right”- which should work, but it typically doesn’t.
Maintaining a refusal might be hard if you valued what the other side thought about things (but there’s, of course, no reason for that). I guess maybe it’s the stress of being in a serious confrontation? I suppose someone could also be worried that things are going to go in a physcially confrontational way if someone is already trying the subtle approach. I’ve heard the phrase “the force of someone’s intentions”- maybe that’s an aspect? I don’t know what to call that, but it is a discernible thing.
I was prompted to write again after watching the movie, The Debt” with Helen Mirren. It made me think again how invasive and in many ways degrading an internal exam actually is. It’s bad enough performed by a woman, I cannot imagine what it must be like if performed by a man.
The healthcare system may be rooted in the past, but we all need access to it in the future. We need to know what our rights are. We should ask questions, and if we don’t get answers, ask someone else. Our bodies and our health are sacred. We must all support and educate those we care about.
In the 21st century there is no reason to have anything but same sex doctors. To have a male perform an intimate exam on a woman is, if you think about it; quite archaic and ridiculous. Just ask to have a female perform it. To have a male routinely feel a woman’s breasts or place a finger inside her vagina isn’t acceptable anymore; deep down we all know this. Many times, female nurses can now collect samples, etc. anyway.
Collective consultations are becoming more common within a group setting for discussion. There’s no need for a patient to attend. Male and female professionals can become involved. The patient’s name can be annonymised anyway and test results, ultra sound, slides, even imagining can be used following a same sex exam.
In the 70’s many men, and indeed women thought that men’s behavior as sexual predators was acceptable, but education, belief systems, rules and legislation have all helped correct this a little. Abuse, as we all know, is still rife elsewhere. The medical profession is at least high profile and under some scrutiny but we need to make it clear what we want of it.
Although my wife says that even after nearly 40 years it still makes her feel sick, our experiences aren’t easy to shrug off which illustrates the effect of sexual abuse for years to come. Perhaps it is ridiculous to accept that a doctor helped a patient off with some of her clothes, including underwear. Three monthly exams seem ridiculous even if the doctor said was checking something. That there was no chaperone, no gown, no gloves worn, but gentle words of kind and soothing encouragement go a long way to offset having what felt like an erection pushed against you.
Provided with great reassurance, and if you have never experienced an internal exam, but been told the doctor performing it is safe and professional, then two ungloved fingers inside your vagina and a thumb resting on your sensitive spot could be normal despite the feelings it started to produce. Had it not been for the placement of her hand on his erection and his smile she could have been abused for longer.
She was lucky to have turned her head away and have him let go of her hand and remove his fingers. Much later she confided in a lady doctor who was absolutely furious too.
I think if we keep to same sex exams, everyone would be safer, including decent and professional male doctors.
It’s all been said earlier;
1. Know the facts,
2. Know your rights,
3. Be confident,
4. Don’t sign anything without fully understanding it,
5. Don’t rely on verbal promises of something important to you – tell them to put it in writing and sign it,
6. Don’t make big decisions without thinking it through or getting a second opinion
7. Keep to same sex physical examinations.
It’s time for a change and we all have the responsibility to do so.
Thank you for your honesty and candor. The secrecy about the truth is stunning. I am particularly offended at the way Drs look at women, including their professional contacts, as objects to discuss as if they are dogs at a show. I was abused by a male doctor emotionally and physically, and no one seems to get that this is not some isolated problem for women who are vulnerable to their position and power. I cannot ever go to a man again. I have PTSD now.
Kathy, I understand how you feel. I feel violated too, and have PTSD from my exam. Hugs.
I wanted to encourage people from this group to consider sharing their comments and insights on the discussion on Dr. Bernstein’s blog at http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2013/09/patient-modesty-volume-58.html#c8389997880291099280. Don started an excellent discussion. Then other women such as Jean, Belinda, me, etc. shared our comments. I shared my comments yesterday. Dr. Bernstein replied by asking if there were any humanistic reasons men would go into the OB/GYN field. I feel some people in this group could provide additional insights.
Misty
For years I thought I was the only person against this! When I tried explaining my feelings to other women all I would hear is that I need to grow up! It’s part of being a women and I was being childish… My first time being pregnant I had a female midwife, she will perform a breast exam at every visit. Being naive I allowed it, until I started questioning her actions. There was no need to have a breast exam every month. Then i started to think how all of my appointments would take 45 minutes when other women went in and out. She will also comment on how pretty I was and how certain colors looked great with my skin tone. I felt violated and it bothers me until this day. My husband also had to have a psychical for work, and the doctor invited everyone and their mothers to come in and take a turn examining his parts after he had told the idiot that he did not feel comfortable with this. I was so angry and ready to raise some hell at the clinic but he wouldnt tell me where it was. My close friend is also an ER RN and talks about how the OBs make fun of women for shaving before having an exam done. Or how they will invite a fellow doctor to exam the patient when the patient was attractive. She also often talks about patients’parts and laughs about how she had to wash a man’s penis and the size of it. I seriously feel that I have to prepare myself for a fight every time I had to go in for my prenatal visits. When I was about to start JR high I had to fight the doctor off me who was angry that i did not allow her to do a pelvic exam. She told me that next time I will HAVE to have one or she wouldn’t see me… I do feel better and more confident knowing that I am not the only person who feels this way.
That type of thing makes my skin crawl! If someone said that to my daughter I’d probably kill her. How dare her say she WON’T see you if she can’t probe you? That is iatrogenic molestation of a child. If someone decided to snatch someone up & do some aggressive role-playing with them, that would be an attack- whether the one attacked was a child or not (it’s just worse if someone DOES go after a child). What about the dirty relative that wants to “play doctor?” Is that somehow fine?
It’s sickening that other women think so well of someone harassing or abusing their child. What? Do they think that they’re somehow strong or mature for letting someone else do act at their own discretion toward them? It’s not downtrodden or immature to have bodily autonomy or to take issue with someone attacking you (whatever the variation is).
Look at something: It’s still murder if a doctor poisons someone with a needle. Overall, a situation is what it consists of. Any interface with a sexual area (specifically a penetrative one, in this case) as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. Also, the additional risks & inaccuracies are aggravating factors (maybe a woman has a miscarriage from injuries caused by the ramification of these procedures- not exactly saving lives there). This would be like a guy acting like it’s manly to let someone throw him over a bunk in prison!
To Lucie
For sure, she was a perverted woman – that female midwife.
As for gynaecological exam and the pap crap as well as breast exam during pregnancy – you have the right to decline all of them. Nobody can impose them on a pregnant woman. The problem is women aren’t aware of their rights. It’s your business how you want your pregnancy to be taken care of. Whatever they say and if they say they won’t help you with your pregnancy, you still have the right to have your blood tested and have scans (2 as far as I remember). In Britain, for example, there are no pelvic exams during pregnancy and no breast exam, either. The same is in Holland, Scandinavia and Ireland. Women are the same everywhere. How come women in the US and many other countries have their pregnancy taken care of so ”invasively”. There are women who don’t go to a doctor while pregnant as they just don’t wish so. BTW, just my question – do Muslim women in the US have gynaecological exams during pregnancy? I can’t imagine that – for these women their nakedness and especially private parts are a taboo. I don’t believe they can be treated in the same way as non-Muslim women.
In response to your statements; you stated your wife had a hysterectomy for benign disease. You did not mention her Pap smear history. It is important for her to have yearly Pap smears after hysterectomy. HPV virus can still cause abnormal cell changes on the vaginal cuff which if left untreated can cause cancer. This is called VIN 1, 2, or 3. Pre hysterectomy CIN 1,2 or 3. I think you are giving your own wife poor medical advice! Secondly, was her colonoscopy for screening at the age of 50? Does she have family hx of colon ca? Did she complain of bloating? Pain? Etc? If so a pelvic exam is warrented! It sounds to me the GI was being very thorough! Due to her hysterectomy for that benign disease… At such a young age…I am assuming she had fibroids possibly… Does she retain her ovaries? Bloating and pain are symptoms of ovarian cancer…. And since you advised her not to see a gyn anymore.. What if that GI found an enlarged ovary with a tumor during that pelvic exam…? That of course would not be found by colonoscopy…and he in turn saved her life!! You sir need to spend less time with your little survey, and spend more time on educating yourself.
Who are you talking to? It doesn’t seem that anyone mentioned that here.
Either way, if some doctor imposes a situation of this nature, that’s an attack. The doctor doesn’t decide things for themselves. Also, their actions are not “warranted.” Whether or not there’s the potential for utility to a procedure, that doesn’t generate some kind of abrogating “trump-card” that cancels out the patient’s decisions. The doctor doesn’t assume proprietorship of the patient- even if they want to. By-the-way: If the doctor’s actions are “warranted,” doesn’t that mean the patient’s blocking of those actions is “unwarranted?” That they are “wronging” the doctor? Self-determined decisions on the patient’s part is not an attack on the doctor.
Apparently, pelvic exams don’t detect ovarian cancer, but ultrasounds can- why not suggest those? The medical responses to cancer don’t tend to work very well & if someone dies in surgery, that’s not saving their life. Living a less cancerous lifestyle might very well do that (whether as a preventative measure or a counteractive one). Not getting stressed out from thinking their going to die of something they might not even have would be helpful. Not sustaining any of the problems generated by these procedures 9or their complications) would be a benefit, too.
“HPV virus can still cause abnormal cell changes on the vaginal cuff which if left untreated can cause cancer”
I can’t even look at this topic anymore, because of this tsunami of patronising nonsense. Rationally I know how important it is to raise awareness about the abuse going on thinly disguised as medicine, and I used to answer questions of desperate teenagers on yahoo answers, and used to challenge women who thought they and their 3 best friends had cervical cancer at 22, and doctors who thought they know best, etc., but there was this constant feeling of hitting a wall, running into these authoritarian know-it-all do-gooders who want WOMEN TO KNOW THEIR PLACES. In response to this comment I quoted above I can(we can) cite the facts about the absurd rarity of vaginal cancer, how the pap smear has never been through clinical trials to prove it is effective against vaginal cancer (oh hang on, neither for cervical cancer) but do you know what I think the point is? These people who like the idea of women being controlled and women’s sexuality being controlled and regulated will always come up with some new absurd nonsense to test for and some new disgusting technology to test with. So how about this:
Dear Jb, don’t DARE to lecture other women like naughty little school kids about what they do or won’t do with their vagina…? No-one “needs” these tests, you need to, no you HAVE TO suck it up that some don’t buy into the hysteria, live their lives happily and enjoy their sexuality and health without this whole regimen straight out of the nazi concentration camps and slave camps. Are you jealous, or are you even a man?
Well said, Karen!
In order to have VIN, there would have to be an HPV infection. In Some countries such as the Netherlands self tests for HPV are available. If a self HPV test was negative then there would be no yearly nonsense of a yearly Pap test.
Doctors lie to patients and omit “truths” such as risk factors all the time. They want to make money and cover themselves from lawsuits for such as 0.5 percent or less chance of malignancy.
Hpv is a virus. It can lay dormant. A negative “self test” would deem no need for yearly Pap smears? So say you perform this “self test” on yourself…and it is a positive result..then what… You then decide to have a Pap smear? Nevertheless with any ” self test” you buy..ultimately , when that “self test” shows a positive result …. What then.?…you seek treatment for your “self diagnosed condition” where as then your doctor must confirm your ” store bought self test result” and discuss with you a plan of care/ treatment. I agree with a lot of comments on this sight. Insurance company’s are a rip off, I have seen practioners ” treat their patient according to how much money they can get out of them”….and perform useless , but money making tests on these patients.
But I do believe in yearly Pap smears, mammo’s, colonoscopy’s, etc. in my opinion these over the counter self tests to detect: uti’s, saliva hormone levels, etc…are a ” load of crap”. So what is the “self treatment ” for your ” self test for hpv?”, when you get a positive result?
On what conclusive scientific basis do you base your recommendations on since they are counter to current medical recommendations. Do you have results of randomized controlled trials clearly proving that cancer screening saves lives. There are no RCTs for CC and pap smears. It’s probably just coincidental that the three tests you recommend yearly are the one’s that Dr’s get incentive payments for. Do you also test your patients (I’m assuming that your are some sort of medical personnel) yearly for lung cancer as it’s second most common to breast cancer in women and prostate cancer in men. Do you recommend yearly prostate testing for your male clients. What about brain scans for brain cancer or tests for pancreatic cancer since they also occur more often than CC in women. And no CC is not now rare because of the pap smear it was always a rare cancer. Do you discuss heart disease with your patients since it is the number killer of women and of people world wide according to the World Health Organization. Before it becomes an argument no cancer is not a major killer of people world wide. It is not even in the top 10, just check out the WHO website. Do you discuss the risk and benefits of cancer screening with your patients since your recommendations of screening are excessive. How many of your patients endure the psychological trauma of a “scare” and the physical possibly dangerous situations of followups for false positives. Do you explain that screening tests are not conclusive and they can miss cancers and there is a greater risk of false positives. Do you also explain that they have the right to decline any screening tests without coercion and fear of reprisal and that you ethically have to respect that. I think recommendations such as these prove the point that at the clinical level many Dr’s and medical personnel are not going to follow the changes in screening recommendations.
JB I don’t think you understand what an HPV self test is. You do not “self-diagnose”. The sample is send to a lab for analysis and FYI, the test has been evaluated for its accuracy against doctors taking a sample and it compares favourably. A little more research and a little less patronising by you would be appreciated.
How do you take the test? Where is it collected from? Is this a test that is covered by insurance? I live in Florida, I have never heard of this test. Sincerely..jb
Jb, HPV self-test is not a “self-diagnose then left-treat” device. It is a tool that helps you to determine whether you can benefit from pap tests, and, subsequently, avoid a high chance of unnecessary harm that is inherent in regular pap-testing.
Also the “HPV lies dormant and can always kill you later” theory has not been confirmed yet. However, bear in mind that if we couldn’t develop immunity against HPV, the vaccination (so highly recommended by your beloved medical establishment) wouldn’t work.
The vaccination is not 100% just like anything else in this world.
Jb, it is not a question whether it is 100%, 99% or less. It is a question whether humans do develop immunity against HVP. And the answer should be either “yes” or “no”.
The medical establishment keeps insisting that we don’t fight HPV off and don’t develop immunity against it. Which means that either the vaccination enterprise is a complete scam or they are lying to us about immunity.
You can self treat for HPV or go to a naturopath. But the issues here that people are discussing are about privacy, aggressive over treatments, patient information and choice, corruption and greed in the medical system. Some people might choose to have paps after a positive HPV test. In the NEtherlands self HPV tests are offered every five years to assympamatic women and then paps and treatments for women who might need them.
If you want yearly medical tests from your doctor, go ahead and get them. It should be your choice, not forced upon you. Just read through some of the articles on this website and OPEN your eyes.
The HPV dormancy theory is just that, a theory. It has never been proven by research. Many people here have been doing research, reading published scientific and medical papers. Some even work in the field. Even for women who test HPV positive, studies have shown that most HPV infections will clear up in two years without causing cancer and some others in five years. So what makes a doctor rush to treat and multilateral women in a few weeks when most cervical cancers take decades of persistent infection to cause cancer. Pap tests are very inaccurate anyway. Colposcopies are intrusive and women are often coerced into aggressive treatments when they have them.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/29/world/meast/saudi-arabia-women-driving-cleric/
“”If a woman drives a car,” Al-Loheidan told Saudi news website sabq.org in an interview, “it could have a negative physiological impact … Medical studies show that it would automatically affect a woman’s ovaries and that it pushes the pelvis upward.”
Rationality is so out of the window when it comes to exerting control over women (for their own good, obviously).
-through the medical industry. I forgot to finish the last sentence, it is still early over here.
The digene HPV self testing device is not available in Canada or united sates because they are only allowed to sell HPV tests that are used with Pap tests. It is the same manufacturer. The medical community in North America will just not give up their lucriative Pap tests and useless pelcpvic exams. They are also misusing the HPV test to scare women into getting more colposcopist and treatments.
I read that some people have used Tagamet for getting rid of warts. It is an antacid stomache medication but seems to have an effect on virtuses.
i found this article called other side of speculum a male doctors point of view. this article i read was very informative now i understand when i had my first pap smear the way the dr acted plus i didnt like how the nurse was in the room. someone who had pap said nurse has to be in there in case patient accuses dr of doing something else. anyway when i had very first it hurt alot becuase im still a virgin so im really tight. when i kept jerking off the table sayin ouch the nurse had smirk on her face stupid witch! the dr didnt say sorry or anything he continued exam. finally when he asked does are you okay? i didnt answer i realized he didnt fucking care. he stopped the exam asked again said i dont want hurt you. i said in pissed tone what do you think fine whatever. i never went back to him. found female dr explained to her how im virgin last 1 hurt real bad im so tight. female dr did better job only time it hurt was when she had to get the sample she was excellent. guys are just to rough and dont care i agree totally with this article i read. plus having female dr didnt have a nosy nurse in their either. 🙂
Above all, pap smears should not be performed on virgins, ever. Regardless of what the doctor thinks, wants or says.
Susan, if you’ve never been sexually active, why are you having pap testing? You might care to look at the evidence, you’re putting yourself through unpleasant and painful testing – you can’t benefit, but you can certainly be harmed by false positives, excess biopsies etc. and they’re common. Understand the necessary first step for cervix cancer is exposure to high risk HPV, a sexually transmitted infection. Most countries exclude virgins from this testing, I assume you’re American, they test at 21 regardless…it seems to me they justify this abuse by saying some women may lie about their sexual history “to get out” of testing. This shows the warped thinking that exists in medicine, this is an elective screening test that legally and ethically requires our informed consent. Challenge any doctor denying your right to choose, they have no right to make assumptions about us, to accept risk on our behalf or to make healthcare decisions FOR us, that’s paternalistic nonsense that needs to be addressed.
You’re absolutely correct & phrased it beautifully! It’s sexually antagonsitic (because it’s an interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making & properties don’t change because of designation) & the fact that things of this nature are presented as non-antagonistic is something that needs to be redressed.
If any detriements are realized from the various risks & inaccuracies of this situation, that’s now an aggravated iatrogenic assualt. Another point is that altruism doesn’t produce ownership- so even if someone DID want to “help women,” as is frequently maintained, that doesn’t not entitle them to apply influence at their discretion. Same goes for “intellectual negation” (the idea of “What comes from me is an “A” & what comes from you is a “B” at best, so I outmatch you”). They impose their own decisions in contradiction to someone else’s & then act like that’s what HAPPENED, but not what OCCURRED. That’s crazy, because what happens IS what occurs!
They also don’t get to act at will on any occupational grounds, either (“it’s my business & I’ll run it any way I want”). That’s like a cab driver saying “I’ll drop you off wherever I feel like & it’s not me kidnapping you, because I’m using occupational means to do it.” Imagine if that same cab driver (or anyone else) added in: “And it’s slavery for you to counteract this.”
Anyway, I just wanted to complement your stance & phrasing. I know someone doesn’t have to be able to articulate a problem in order to understand it, but it definitely helps with having “ammo” for arguments. It’s also sometimes good for getting various medical personnel to back off- I guess they worry about what something will sound like in court. It could also be not having an easy target- it’s not fun anymore. Maybe they like deception, specifically? Maybe the whole “this was your fault” thing? I know that happens with a lot of other things along these lines, so if someone “allowed” it under deception or duress- now they feel like it’s their fault & that might just be what someone tells them if they bring it up. “Just don’t have it,” is the typical response, but it’s easier said than done & it might just be a situation of outright force.
Some doctors give the news of a vaginal infection (could be bacterial, fungal, protozoan or viral, whether if could be sexually transmitted or not) in a very negative or judgemental manner. The tone of voice and body language is accusatory. It is so much different than the delivery of the results of any other diagnostic procedure such as an X-ray or throat culture.
The number of sexual partners or age of sexual debut really has nothing to do with a diagnosis or patient care if a woman has HPV. Only if her partner needs to know but usually with HPV it does not matter unless the partner is female. It has to do with collecting data for epidemiology studies. Why are women being forced into studies and government data bases without their consent or even knowledge?
Very interesting read. When I was 18, I was having an awful time with periods (or lack their of) My periods straight up stopped for 4 years and I was never able to find out why. I was severely sexually abused as a child by my father. It went all the to rape. I never told anyone about the abuse until later in life so when I was 18, I had never had a pelvic exam before. I was always too terrified to get checked out. I didn’t need birth control or anything because I was terrified of having sex. A friend recommended her OBGYN and even though he was a man, he was very patient, kind and understanding. When he first came in to introduce himself – he was very nice and friendly. I disclosed my abuse and also told him I’ve never had an exam like this before. He seemed kind of shocked and asked why I hadn’t been checked out as a child after my parents divorced and I never saw my father again. I explained that I hadn’t disclosed to abuse until many years later. When it was suggested I get examined – I always refused out of fear. The doctor listened and was genuinely concerned and seemed to care. He knew that I was petrified to be touched in that way by ANYONE – I’ve never let a boyfriend even get that far with me. The look of empathy on his face was encouraging. He said that he would be gentle and as quick as he can. He said the nurse could hold my hand and that I would be in control the whole time. But when it came time to actually get into the stirrups, it changed. He said he usually did the bimanual exam after the speculum exam, but he needed to make sure I could relax the muscles down there so that the speculum wouldn’t be painful. I froze – I literally was like a deer in the headlights. He started with just one finger and when he would get to a certain spot, he would say “Can you feel where I’m touching? Right here?” I’d nod to him “I need you to relax that muscle” This when on for about 30 seconds and then he added a second – I immediately tensed and just “shhhhh” ed and “cooed” me and kept calling me “Darlin’ and telling me it was okay and to relax. When it came time for the speculum I had tears streaming down my face. I asked him to stop and he said he was almost done and didn’t stop. He then told me he had to do a recto-vaginal exam. I so badly wanted to sit up and run away – but fear kept me paralyzed. I could tell from her nurses face that she didn’t agree with what was going on – but she didn’t say a damn word. When he started that last part of the exam I literally yelped out loud but then stayed silent as he finished. It was a total nightmare. The results came back that there was a lot of scar tissue and damage to my cervix. I never went back and it’s been 6 years and I have never been to an OBGYN since. In a very tiny, miniscule way – it’s like he enjoy it during the exam.
That’s horrible! Sounds like a real “sheep with snake’s fangs” type of thing. He put you at ease with all the empathy & concern, but in reality he was the exact opposite of all that. You tell him to stop & he doesn’t is a problem on it’s own. Then adding in more things is another issue (none of the stuff at the end was mentioned, beforehand- I’m sure). “Bait & switch” is a common tactic of the medical profession & it obviously starts with them acting non-antagonistic & like they really care. All this knowing full-well about your history & adding to it- that’s very sadistic. The properties of a situation don’t change because of designation, so him doing this to you with medical procedures is an attack.
By-the-way: The nurses or whoever else is there is only there to back up the DOCTOR, not you. Whatever the official story, that’s what happens functionally. She didn’t speak up for you & that was, theoretically, the whole point of here being there. If they don’t engage in countering the doctor, they’re not much help as a guard against them are they?
Overall, “outside orchestration” is a pretty common thing with medical personnel. It doesn’t really matter what the angle is, there’s a general trend of THEM comporting the situation & arranging details. “Oh, you have a rash on your shoulder? Well, get completely naked & we’ll check that out. What? That’s how we do things.” Third-party orchestration of things like this is an attack in itself & a lot of people don’t hear that.
Any interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack, in this case an “iatrogenic” one (means medical attack). An imposed situation of this nature is NOT non-antagonistic, as it tends to be presented frequently (even by shrinks- apparently even when someone is TELLING them that they had a problem, they dispute this situation as if it was a matter of their own assessment).
I don’t mean to lecture you, but I figure this is the kind of thing that might come up in some way (at the very least, if people argue with you- you can always say to them “If a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder” & they most likely won’t have anything else to say).
Dear Angel.
Maybe you should not get another exam unless you feel it is necessary due to pain or wanting to have a baby. Focus on your healing, not just physically but emotionally, spiritually.
What happened to you was really terrible. Abuse is terrible even more when a parent abuses. Doctors can also abuse but most of them do not understand how much a pelvic exam can affect a survivor of abuse. There are accommodations that can be offered yet many are not aware. I feel that even then it is that most survivors seek exams because they are pressured by peers and mot because it is going to help them in anyway.
I can relate to the mental anguish some others have posted about concerning gyno exams. My story is a little different though. I started going through what is referred to as precocious puberty and at age 7 started menstruating. When I told my mom I had been bleeding for several days (and hiding my soiled underwear so she wouldn’t find out) I was taken to my pediatrician. This creepy old man doctor ordered me to undress completely then fondled my developing breasts in what even then I recognized at that age was a perverted way as he was practically drooling. For reasons I cannot understand he did a very painful pelvic exam on me putting his entire hand inside my vagina, tearing my skin despite me crying. Why was it necessary to give me a pelvic exam because I started menstruating early? Things only got worse when he sent me that very same day to some sort of specialist who a hour later gave me a 2nd pelvic exam including photographing my genitalia while ordering my mother to hold me down with my legs pried open. So I felt like I was raped by two doctors plus betrayed by my mother for allowing the photographs. From what I can remember the doctor suggested because my genitalia is a little abnormal from other girls that I might be a hermaphrodite so he told my parents during a conference that he wanted to do exploratory surgery to see if I had extra internal organs (which as an adult I am assuming he meant to see if I had testes in addition to ovaries). I was able to convince my mom not to take me back to him so I avoided the surgery. It did help that my dad said no way in hell could he afford the cost of the surgery. A few years later I developed a terrible sore throat so my mom took me back to the first pediatrician. After telling him my throat hurt he demanded I undress and he did a breast exam and another pelvic exam FOR A SORE THROAT. He then told my mom I had nothing wrong with me and was just trying to get attention.
Skip again till age 32 I managed to avoid gyno exams again till at that age the ob/gyno who was treating me for a thyroid condition insisted I have a pap even though I have never had sex with men, only females. I told her of my past history. She made fun of me and said I was not a hermaphrodite even though in the next breath she told me I was made different and offered to cut off the extra tissue she said “if it will make you feel better”. How would cutting off part of my body make me feel better? The exam she did was extremely painful because I do have a small erectile organ that grows out of the vaginal opening so the speculum smashed it and it got pinched in between the metal mechanisms or springs of the speculum which caused me a lot of pain. She didn’t care and just continued to make fun of me looking different, but also for being worried I was made different and for me telling her the other doctor had told my parents I was both genders. The part where she scraped the cervix with the bottle-brush looking thing was so terrible I hurt inside and spotted blood for nearly a week afterwards. Despite telling me I wasn’t both gendered, or a hermaphrodite, she later told me that I apparently had testicular tissue as there was no other way I could have such high testosterone levels in my blood test because she could find nothing wrong with my adrenal glands which is the only other possibility for having high T as a female. I was also tested for PCOS which came back negative. So 12 years later here I am I’ve not had another pelvic exam because I am fearful of the humiliation and the pain and not wanting to be made fun of because I am made different. This has even prevented me from getting knee surgery because I was afraid of being undressed in hospital and being “found out” that I am some kind of freak. I am still tormented by fact I was photographed naked as a child and two old men doctors put their entire hand inside of me basically for no medical reason other than to just get their jollies. To this day I hate doctors and I hate men and distrust people in general so I avoid relationships including close friendships because I am scared of being assaulted again and also I feel like nobody could even accept me if they knew I was born some sort of freak. I no longer even pursue lesbian relationships, if it can even be called that since I am not exactly a woman considering my extra organs, but after some women commented on me being different and turned off by my body I’m like why even bother trying to have a relationship with anyone anymore.
“The Freak “, it is a very sad story. Those two doctors in your childhood, and then the other obgyn later, basically ruined your self-esteem, your happiness and your life. They damaged and scarred you at a very early age so much, that you can’t be in a happy relationship anymore. This is terrible. You have a big reason to hate doctors now. That is very understandable.
What I can’t understand however, is how these medical criminals keep getting away with such things. Doctors are supposed to make us feel better, yet they are doing the exact opposite, one way or another. I know for myself – the further from medical establishment, the better. The only thing the medical system can possible be useful is traumas (accidents, broken bones, deep cuts, etc). In any other case doctors only cause more suffering. I don’t go to doctors, ever, nor anyone else in my family, including people in their late 90s. Everyone is just looking after themselves and leading healthy life. And everyone is fine.
Your story absolutely breaks my heart.
I suspect somehow that The Freak, scared2, and Angel are the same person, a fledging BDSM fiction writer. I stopped reading the story of the freak, when they got treated for a thyroid condition by an ob-gyn. Surely even the US is not that bad.
Ack. I was really hoping to read something that would change my mind about men, yet once again the evidence stands. Even the “good” males out there have these types of thoughts? I mean, you admitted yourself that you did find yourself excited. Which I find so upsetting and sickening as a woman.
All men aren’t like that, but the orientation tends to be toward women (not that someone can’t like causing someone else problems & be gay at the same time). That orientation can be a MOTIVATOR, not the way that all guys are lined up (a taste for compulsion doesn’t innately come included with being straight).
This is not really all that surprising. My mom has been a nurse for 30 years, & I work in a hospital. From the experience of her & others in the medical field, I can say most of the doctors have a well-known reputation for being difficult, arrogant, childish, throwing tantrums in the OR, yelling & fighting at work, cheating on their wives, carrying on affairs with nurses & even cleaning staff, using drugs, promiscous, partying, etc etc etc. A majority of the doctors I work with are…let’s just say… OFF! Just when I start to think one of them is normal, Bam! Their other side comes out & they either go off on someone rudely or act plain bizarre. My MIL worked in an ENT office & he is well-known for spending much longer time in the room with good looking younger women. We even had a dr. @ work scream, rip a phone off the wall & kick the door repeatedly, yep he still works there after that huge scene in a public space where pt.s rooms are. All I’m saying is from my experience dr.’s aren’t always the most stable people.
That being said, I haven’t had any bad experiences OB wise thank goodness. Had a male from 16-26yo & he never made me feel uncomfortable (well more than I already was)–nothing pervy. He always just small talked during the exam to make it pass quickly & that was it, nothing extra or inappropriate. I also don’t remember any pelvic exams during pregnancy. Now I go to a female PA who I love & yes she still has me come for yearly as well & I don’t think it’s bc she wants to see my vagina more often! I am sure there are men who take advantage & are not professional but I think most just rec the yearly bc that is the norm. However I think this article is good to inform people of their rights and the options out there, that they don’t “have” to do things a certain way.
This might sound like a stupid question, but why doesn’t anybody hit them? Seriously- if they’re acting that way they might just be a threat to the patient, if nothing else. Nothing at all to say that they don’t take it out on someone or maybe it clouds their judgement.
I feel so bad for all of the women who feel violated and I agree that women are made to feel that going to the GYN is almost a right of passage. I am now 49 and have had regular exams because I thought I had to and it was necessary. After the age of 24 there seemed to be more women doctors and Nurse Practitioners and never saw another male GYN (I had one old man who was horrible and very uncomfortable saw him once and never went back to him).
I want to bring up a couple of issues that you should be aware of, some you might not realize. Doctors have Sales Reps from the different medical device companies in the O.R. this may or may not be on the consent form, please read the consent form very carefully and tell the doctor that you do not want medical students or sales reps in the room. This to me takes away a person’s dignity and respect when you have an audience with non-clinical personal and yes GYN sales reps are men.
Also after hearing about pelvic exams being conducted on anesthetized women i was outraged. I have never had to go for surgery and this was never done to me however as a women and I think every women should be outraged that we collectively are treated in this manner. I actually wrote to my senator who is a women about this, and one of her aides contacted me. She left a voicemessage and I called her back only to get her voicemail so hopefully we will speak. I can lead her to some websites that I found from medical schools that actually put on the curriculum that pelvic exams are done on anesthetized women.
Please don’t stop questioning your health and your ability to put your health in your control. Writing blogs is one thing but more women need to stand up for themselves so please write to your senator or even write to the heads of medical schools.
What do the sales reps do? Is it like a “We’d like to put something here” type of a conversation or are they just hanging around as a general thing?
Very suprised that you got a voicemail from them! May I ask what state you’re in?
Hello Alex, I’ve asked Sales Reps why they are in the O.R. and there are a couple of reasons. One reason is the doctor may not be familair with a new product, however I find this disturbing they are doctors with training why would they need a sales rep showing them how to use the product. The other reason one said is for hand holding. This is for any surgery. I did contact the senator’s office and let me tell you the aide was shocked and said that she is going to be doing more research. This is for New Hampsire
you say it has never happened to you, How do you know that when you are knocked out ????????? in the or
I’ve never been in for surgery however if in the future if I do I will speaking to the surgeon prior -and make sure that I have all kinds of notes on the consent form
Make up information pamphlets and take them to your mosque and religious organization. This assault on modesty needs to be stopped.
Thanks, lmc. See what she thinks about iatrogenic attack, in general. A lot of people aren’t familiar with that term, but it’s any problem caused by medical treatment or advice.
Doctors forcing internal exams on people is an attack of that nature & an aggravated one, at that (due to the risks & inaccuracies of these procedures- any ramifications realized are additional detriments). Some times you run into a snag, like someone saying “but they’re a doctor” or “that’s a medical procedure,” but if a doctor were to poison someone with a needle that’s still murder- because a situation is what it consists of. The properties of a situation don’t change because of designation. Just thought I’d add in a bit of ammo in case you run into an argument.
Moo- I don’t get your post. Is it to me, because I’m not muslim. Either way, I’m not too sure they’d be the most receptive to women NOT having things imposed on them, particualrly something in range of sexual attacks.
I was reading about this Tunisian women who, after having escaped her family, got recaptured by them & two of her relatives decided to check if she was a virgin! She said that was horrible & against her freedom, but it certainly seems like what it generally approved of in that culture.
As for the “doctor” on here who would make us believe that he has never taken advantage – has never had impure thoughts, never become aroused (while seated on his little stool, inspecting and inserting his fingers into an attractive women’s Vagina) – In other words, you would have us believe that when an attractive, confident, educated, pleasant women with great body comes into your little office for a pelvic, or breast exam – that it’s the same to you as the typical overweight, unattractive, average patient exam? Your so full of s*** I’m going to have to dig my way out of this website! Your NOT fooling us! You are no different than the rest of us Males that are attracted to Women. Not even a little bit. But I do believe you become very professional at not showing your attraction, indeed. Your all expects at Acting professional in these circumstances.
Next, your going to tell us that you don’t masturbate or think about sex every seven seconds like every other man on the planet. You enjoy it all right, sometimes you enjoy your work on the “well women” visits very much. And I am Positive that you have your favourites like every other single doctor on the planet. Im seriously glad a Doctor has finally done the honourable thing in writing this article. I would be interested in the study that polls ‘Doctors wives or girlfriends’, in knowing what percentage of them are persuaded to go to Female Doctors for intimate health care concerns. I would hazard a guess in the percentage to be high.
I agree with the “liar” catcher. As if its not a perk! And what rings so true is another comment made that the only reason it is socially acceptable is because Women where not allowed to vote, let alone be Doctors back in the day, so we have all been sucked into this laughable mentality that men who are Doctors are somehow different because they have see it all before, or went to school for a number of years to study the female form? It is a ridiculous argument formulated by men, interested in protecting the good thing they’ve got going. The last thing they would want is for us women to be on to them. Men are forever checking me out but somehow when i go to the doctors office they are oblivious. Haha. I don’t go to male Doctors anymore for these procedures out of respect for myself, and my Husband. I also loathe the exposure of being in this position with a stranger. Yuck.
I never understood how seeing something before influences the situation, somehow. Same with frequently doing something. What that something CONSISTS of is still the same, regardless of prior instances of occurance.
Another point is that the composition of something is not changed if the one doing it doesn’t feel gratification. What about what’s happening to this person? If someone runs someone else over with a car, that’s still an attack- regardless of if the driver gets any satisfaction from it or even if they feel bad about it. Same with gender, occupation, or designation.
Not that women can’t feel sexual gratification by doing something to another woman, but even if they didn’t- it doesn’t mean that it’s not an attack if imposed or a problematic methodology if consensual. Something that is a means to an end can still be an issue, after all.
Alex, i think your hearts in a good place but i would have to disagree with you in calling a pelvic exam an ” attack”. Sometimes they need to be performed if the patient has bleeding or pain, urination issues etc – after all my significant other is the most important person in the world to me. What I am saying, is have a Female provider do these tests! Everyones happy then. Lots of men simply don’t care, but lots of men do care. I think what’s important is communication to your partner, that your one of the ones who does care. In past relationship I have never had a problem with my girlfriends switching doctors. Except one, and it was an absolute deal breaker. Done. I’m out. Whatever she does when I’m gone is her business. But when she’s with me I expect a certain respect and consideration concerning intimate exam by a male Doctor. Pretty simple stuff really. And I don’t expect anything that I wouldn’t give myself.
What I think Alex generally refers to is the practice of bullying asymptomatic women into well-women exams, without following the protocol of informed consent, threatening them with all sorts of diseases, or withholding the pill. In such cases, and they happen disturbingly often, a pelvic exam IS an attack. I think if the patient gives fully informed consent they are not an attack, but they do not seem good medicine either- too little information to be gained from palpation, too crude and traumatising. In this day and age there should be more advanced methods to explore pelvic symptoms. Don’t take it personally, but it disturbes me when women who do not want a stranger to penetrate their vagina are told to not whine and suck up and it’s for your own good. When it comes to any technology one should be an active consumer and not a passive victim. Cardiologists do not have a hole to stick their hands into and they can still work.
i can agree with that thanks for the clarification Karen!
Thanks, Karen. You hit a good point with that thing about cardiologists, by-the-way.
Let me clarify: If this is imposed, it IS an attack. It doesn’t really matter if there were any symptoms or potential utility to doing these things. After all, someone can refuse treatment even if it will end their life to do so (and this is a good thing, as any number of lies about how life-saving a procedure is are possible). Altruism doesn’t produce ownership, even if it WAS genuine (and that’s a big “if,” in the first place).
Consensual, it’s potentially not an attack, but then again it doesn’t work as advertised- so what is that? I doubt women are thinking “Hey, let me do this even though it doesn’t work as advertised.” Doctors sure as hell don’t blather on & on about the low-utility of these tests. Or the risks (since the term “pelvic exam” can include a bunch of things, just like the word “physical” can).
There’s also the fact that she can do this for herself, if there was something it happened to be useful for. Non-problematic & much more trustable. No risk of accidents, either. Same with “accidents.”
Something else I’ve noticed is that doctors arrogantly act like nobody can do anything that they can do, despite the fact that they, themselves, were instructed on something in order to gain that ability. I guess that point only comes up when they decide to use unconscious women as practice dummies (or to keep themselves certified, apparently- I wonder how many other situations that applies to?).
What about male doctors who have female patients that refuse pelvic exams just because that doctor is male? Are they ever offered an alternative such an exam with a female doctor in the same practice or a female nurse practioners or even a self test?. I have heard that most the female doctors in practices with male doctors are sick of getting all the Pap tests pushed on them and saying they will only do a limited number of pelvic exams, say three per day. So really now the female doctors are becoming part of the problem as well.
If a female patient tells her male doctor that she is uncomfortable having a pelvic or breast exam from him and he makes no offer of alternative, and even gets angry, refuses medication etc the you know that he does not have the best interest of the patients health in mind.
My stomach is turning right now after reading this.I just had an exam yesterday by a male doctor.I’m going to puke:(
I’m sure you feel better after admitting what you already knew
ASK YOUR DOCTOR ABOUT “SELF TEST” KITS WHETHER THE DOCTOR IS MALE OR FEMALE, & YOU DO NOT NEED A PELVIC EXAM FOR BIRTH CONTROL. TAKE BACK YOUR BODY. THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY FEELS THAT IT IS THEIR RIGHT TO NUDE YOU AS A PERK, AND FOR GREED. DONT BE NAIVE!
“There are several viable options to screen for HPV without a pelvic exam, including the Cervista urine test. If a patient tests negative for HPV, she has a better chance of being struck by lightning than getting cervical cancer. So tell me, do you routinely offer this alternative to your patients, or do you scare them into returning for their exam every year (which, in itself, is due to the high error rate of paps), withhold their birth control to coerce them into Paps, and make them think that cervical cancer is looming to kill them at any second?”
http://www.cervistahpv.com/laboratory/cervistahpvhr/index.html
Oh look, another great reason not to have male doctors anywhere near women
Doctors who are not the same sex as you examining you is inevitable. I have a female GP who ended up checking my testicles for lumps. I also ended up having a female surgeon refine both my testicles when they both were diagnosed as being cancerous.
inevitable? People kill me…as if telling the medical community you will stand up and demand your rights is somehow wrong. Patients have rights…and despite what the medical community says in response no is a viable answer. Emergencies are not what I am speaking of.
Right — but the female doc isn’t getting a thrill handling your frank and beans.
Tracy Ann, how do you know that the female doc isn’t getting a thrill handing his frank and beans, as you put it? There are also lesbian doctors who enjoy doing pelvic exams as well… so how would one know how to tell one from the other? I am asking sincerely since this has become a more sexual society world wide. How does a patient find the right doctor for the intimate exams?
The patient decides what exams are necessary, no matter what gender is doing it. And doctors worrying about being sued is balogne…That is just an excuse to do what they want to do…too much of all this is about narcissism and control. Doctors hate it when the patient takes control.
Anonymous,
I agree 100% that doctors hate it when patients are in control. And patients should be in control. First, its their body. Second, its their money whether they pay out of pocket or its a benefit of their employer, they still work for it.
Too many people do not realize that they need to be their OWN advocate, because if they don’t, no one else will.
Thanks,
Rhonda Radandt aka nanarhonda
As a female medic, I concur with the writer, do not ever go to a male medic , if you’re female , for intimate testing.
It may not occur to you, sir, that your position comes not only from a childhood memory (and ergo trust) of your mother giving you intimate care, but also from the fact that (although it happens) female on male sexual violence/abuse/harrasement is so rare that any man in a vulnerable position can de facto take for granted his safety at the hands of a female care giver.
Not so women, who’ve had inculcated by fact, from a very young age, that nakedness UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, is vulnerability to them in a way it never is for males, save maybe in jail.
This is why females (and males) are allowed to specify the sex of their medical professionals, though males rarely do , except maybe Haredi Jews for instance.
So maybe you ought to re read this article, especially where the doctor urges women to insist on female OBGYNS ate can, and not dismiss so lightly the mores of others.
Women have instinct regarding this, women patients must be respected, regardless of the casual dismissal of their fears by such as you.
“As a female medic, I concur with the writer, do not ever go to a male medic , if you’re female , for intimate testing.”
— What a load of sexism! As if only males can be inclined towards sexual wrongdoing – counter to recurring reporting in the news.
the difference being, no woman enjoys fondling testicles.
I know quite a few women who would disagree with that generalization, Lily.
Totally, Ellie. Why on earth do women want male doctors?
Alex, it has been monthes since I have posted hear. I read u asked me why do woman go along or agree to exams. I can only speak for my self. When i had that exams I was 17 and didnt know really how they do a pelvic exam. Doctors do not explane these exams to woman how they do them or even ask for permission. I remember thinking that they were just gona look at my hips bc thats what a “pelvic exam” sounds like. And that is another problem I have with this. I Also wonder if this termenaolgy is used to trick woman into thinking it is not a internal exam. IF A woman doesnt know that the doctor is going internal till she is naked in a open gown and a nurse brings in a table with insturments. Its as tho they want the woman naked and vonerable so they will feel presuerd to comply. I Know some woman already know what a pelvic exam is but alot of woman and young girls realy do not know what they are going along with and probly whould panic and refuse or leave. I think the word “pelvic exam” is a trick in its self and then not explaning exams or asking for concent.
It DOES sound like a skeletal thing. The hip bone is called the “pelvis,” so one would assume that’s what the focus is.
Something I’ve noticed, at least in this country, is that there’s a heavy tendancy to try to redirect a problem & use the enemy’s momentum against them. It’s to the point where someone gets dependant on assistance from an assailant, or at least on the help of a benefactor.
There’s so many tricks that get used (coercion, deception, disparaging remarks about being immature or crazy, etc…). Ambushes are in keeping with that. So is rushing someone around so there’s no time for thought or space for refusal. Comportment is another big one (“do this, then do this, then do this”). I guess that would have a pressuring effect.
I have another question: Why would being naked add to this pressure? I’d think it would add to things in the opposite direction.
The article above by the male doctor is very revealing. You may want to read another article – more factual and less emotional – about male gynecologists at http://www.modestyxxx.com. It is entitled “Gentlemen Don’t Look Up Ladies’ Skirts.” The author quotes documents from the AMA and the British equivalent which say that male doctors who experience erotic feelings during a pelvic exam are “neither unusual or abnormal.” It is an amazing article. Well researched and well written.
Woman are not the only victims here as horrible as this is for most of them. Try and imagine how infuriating this is for the boyfriends and husbands. We are hard-wired with this deep-seated, protective instinct, and we are allowing another man to perform this horribly, intimate, sexual exam on the woman we Love. Makes me nauseous. And for what? a less than 99% lifetime risk, even lower if your a young to middle-aged woman?
This has got to be the biggest medical sham ever conceived. That, along with the pap and pelvic having no sexual connotation for the male doctor. Really? Its just like them to think they are mentally superior.
Finally, a man that stands up and speaks out for his woman! Hallelujah!
“infuriating” does not equal what happens to women. You are not “allowing” this. It isn’t your prerogative to give permission for what happens to your girlfriend’s/wife’s body. She does.
Yes, it’s nice that you feel protective, but please don’t skew yourself into the role of victim.
Modayear –
What happens to women in these scenario’s is beyond disgusting. Ignoring what it does to a caring and loving partner is just as terrible. My wife has not endured this for decades now and it still infuriates me…the way they manipulated her (emotionally)and made me out to be the bad guy is one aspect, the other is knowing another man (many other men in fact) performed these exams on my wife destroys me…it eats at me…it hurts me. I paid another man (many other men)to enjoy sitting inches from my wife’s most intimate region, staring and enjoying as long as he desired then inserting his fingers and groping her, examining (groping) her breasts without gloves, when in many instances this procedure had just been performed by another and was completely unnecessary…while acting being very gentle so she could buy that he was a compassionate, caring man. How dare you minimize the effects that this has had on our relationship.
Sounds like ownership and patronisation to me. It’s not an issue for boyfriends / husbands they are not victims. You don’t own your partner. Nauseous? “Allowing another man”?? Spare me!
Meg –
I am sorry if anything I said looks like I am patronizing/insulting/degrading women and/or my wife, Not my intent. My reasons for my position stem not from a lording over position…in fact it is doctors that lord over, patronize and humiliate patients (especially good looking female ones) to be able to do exams that either pad their wallets or fulfill their personal desires,
My position is not about control, it is about standing next to her and defending her when she is vulnerable. We always go together to each others appointments because as the patient we do not always hear everything due to the stress and the fact that as a naked person being talked to by a dominating doctor presence we aren’t always “all there”. When my wife (the person I am closest to in this entire world) is the subject, it IS ALWAYS an issue for me…and likewise the other way around when I am the patient. I most likely have never met this white robed person, Their selling themselves as having my best long term interest at heart is possible, I can be certain my wife does have my best long term interest at heart. This is a two way street.
My comments about “allowing” have to do with not questioning exams/procedures that are clearly not necessary and my comment about “disgusting” comes from years of experience as a patient and my wife’s advocate.
Doctors want patients to just answer questions and to roll over and allow whatever they command, so they can operate completely unimpeded and remain 100% in control. Patients have finally grown a backbone and have finally started to call doctors out in their behaviors, taking control of their own lives and their health care because the patient is most likely always looking at their own long term best interests first.
“You may want to read another article – more factual and less emotional –”
I was taken aback by this statement. Nothing about this post was “emotional.” How pejorative. Devaluing emotion is a peculiarity of white culture and many white Americans take it for granted; they are oblivious to this part of their culture and have the nerve to expect (impose) other cultures to modify their communication style accordingly in the name of sounding “scientific.” The notion that “logic” is separate from “emotion” is false and originates from Satanism through Masonry. Masonry birthed this idea through the “Age of Enlightenment” or the “Age of Reason.” This ignorance has been ingrained in science, falsely so called, ever since.
http://www.thedyinggod.com/enlightenment
Contrary to these lies, without emotion we CANNOT reason. Read “Emotional Intelligence” by Daniel Goleman to understand how emotion is vital to reasoning ability, prioritizing, and functioning. This explains why science geeks are so very irrational, cold, callous and *unreasonable.* And why people who lack this skill, lack common sense.
And as much as Satanism (within science) pretends to “appeal to reason” using “pure” logic, it uses emotional arguments when convenient; such as in the homosexual movement.
I would imagine there are doctors of both genders who may be personally uncomfortable examining unattractive or obese patients. We are a shallow biased society and there are no guarantees that personal maturity comes with a medical degree. The tragedy is that someone could end up dying or with cancer because of it. If someone wants to play fantasy doctor they can do it on their own time. If someone is fat – get over it. They still need competent medical care and are not as modest as presumed.
Again implying that the result of sexism would be someone would get cancer because doctors don’t “care” about them- FUCK NO! The result of sexism is present, right here, ie you implying a woman needs a doctor to take fucking care of them.
I wonder something: If you got a bunch of hot women together to say things in support of having bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness, the different risks & inaccuracies of all kinds of procedures, and a general conflict of interest that is pervasive in the medical profession (in some countries, at least) would that be useful? I know it should be about the issues, but I think that would give it a boost.
Throw in that “female” isn’t a type of disorder & that it’s not being stupid to think compositionally (after all, a situation is what it consists of & reality DOES apply to medical personnel) and you’re all set. At least in terms of getting a shot across- since doctors & such will probably fight back against being fought back against.
P.S.- I also think well of cursing & general ferocity of response as a tool to counter attempts to impose these types of things. Actually, that’s a frequent trick in fights. Kind of a psych-up AND a solidifier.
Someone might say something like “There’s no call for that” or something to the effect of that being a “verbal assault,” but one can very easily make the counter that someone was trying to “impose detriment” & you used “verbal counter-offensives” in an effort to protect yourself from this detriment.
Your response needn’t be so vile. You could have make the same response without the profanity. People could have made more sense of it then.
Excellent response! Thank you! I have felt the same way, having worked in the ER and hearing the doctors, PAs, & RNs say about people that aren’t to their standards. It is shameful.
Get real , men are men, pussy is pussy the pervs enjoy it all.
Wish I hadn’t read this but knowledge is power! I dropped my male gyn over a decade ago after realizing several things were not quite right. This article only reinforces my decision.
Hope you don;t mind…but I am curious about what you felt wasn’t right?
There is so much scary information out there, but thankfully there are webistes like this one to educate women and advise them of their rights. This article is very scary, and just shows how the medical community gets away with abuse of women.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920649/
Holy Shit! This is them torturing women and none of these people did anything to physically stop any of this! I swear to Christ & I don’t know how this is going to come off, but I wanted to do the exact same things to these people that they did to the pregnant women the whole time I was reading that & kill them afterward. They shouldn’t be around to cause further harm & I’m sure their replacements would act very differently.
It occurs to me that an accusation is just an invitation for someone to let their “shields” down or to implode in on themselves. An ATTACK, however- that would be useful. It would put some “teeth in the night,” so-to-speak. The method is always attack, whether or not the goal is defence.
This culture is self-replicating, so there’s no reason to believe that they’ll initiate a change of behavior. This is what they are when they are left to their own devices, so if they were different I figure they’d act different. This isn’t a model of how people in general are if they’re free, this is just how they are. I truly do believe that these people are either possessed or just innately evil!
One big question for all of you: If this is how they are toward the mother, what kind of safe environment does someone think is there for the baby? What affects her generally affects her baby, anyway- but I’d figure if this is a pretty severe warning sign of untrustability. Whether through antagonism or incompetance, they cause problems. These problems don’t magically go away because you get billed for them. As far as making decisions & she can make whatever decisions she wants, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll actually happen. Something might get directly imposed on her, no manipulation or subtlety at all.
The article is called “………fifty years later” . Why? Most od the stories from nurses and doulas are from around 2009 not decades ago. Birth as a rape experience. Not good.
Women are told that they can choose their birth experience now. Only I have heard it is very difficult to book with a midwife. Only first come as soon as positive home pregnancy test if you do not call right away likely they are booked up. Any, just any complication and they are sent to an obstetrician. The choice is supposed to have some family physician delivering but most do not do that because of the time commitment and the insurance costs. So the “choice” that health Ontario boasts about is bogus.
I have heard enough about women being induced just to be a convenience, no medical reason. I believe this is damaging toa child’s soul because they pick what day they should be born.
I agree with whoever said that it has “soul-damaging”to a little persons soul being induced before their time. Let nature do its thing. And lets get rid of the troll. This is a woman’s forum, trolling doctors worried about woman finding out about their shame are not welcome here. Period. Go push a prostate exam; their fare more common than the cervical/ovarian ca that you push with your vagina exam! oops, pelvic exam, sorry, lets keep masqueing whats really happening here shall we. Pigs.
Schwerin: I know what the name of the site is, but sometimes there are male posters that are saying “Hey, they’re trying to back my girlfriend into all kinds of probing so she can get birth control pills- how do we get them without all this?” or just simply complaining about them trying to get dictatorial with his wife. Sometimes it would even be wives mentioning them trying to push their husbands into things! It is less common for this sort of thing to be directed against men, though.
There are more inductions now than ever before and it is soley to schedule the births. It is so wrong. What every happened to natural child birth? I had it… albeit mine both came way too early and they didn’t give mothers anything for pain back then. God forbid! My daughter has wanted to have her children born at home with a midwife but she cannot because she needs rhogam and the midwife cannot give it only a physician can. But she has given birth to 8 beautiful babies with one in the arms of Jesus. Home schooling 7 is keeping her busy!
This article was entirely fabricated, no facts listed, all opinion based, and no clear identification of the author. From the sentence structure, word frequency, and repetition that are used. It’s a safe bet the writer was a women to begin with. I mean lest be honest, there is not a lot of reason to hide who you unless your full of crap. The medical profession isn’t known for back balling someone who questions it’s practices, ergo this is total bs.
Chris W.
Chris go tell that to all the woman this has happen to like my grandmother.
“It’s a safe bet the writer was a women to begin with.” .. Sue, I think we have a troll here, can you help?
Karen, I agree but the odd attack from random trolls provides opportunity to pull out the stops and post some of the facts. And medical-oriented trolls who post here enter a level playing field – unlike the medical environment where female patients are most often in a ‘one-down’ position. I agree with IMC that the article was scary, but also brilliant, well researched, and beautifully written. I follow a blogger who posts some great but disturbing articles about birth, like this one about a woman who was forced to have a cesarean: http://humanwithuterus.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/vbac-vs-forced-cesarean-facts-opinion-and-informed-consent/
Karen, I should have added that I don’t think any women here need help from troll attacks. Other way around in fact, I usually feel a bit sorry for the poor troll who is unfortunate enough to land here! Although if it’s an attack on women, offensive or just plain creepy then it’s good to just delete. I don’t think the last comment from the suspected troll falls into that category but what do you think?
Sue, I hope I did not sound patronising. What I’ve meant, is just that petty sexism like the sentence I quoted from the poster does not bring the debate forward. Calling out someone on their gender like that should not be part of any civilised discussion.
Karen I certainly didn’t think you were being patronizing! As moderator I try to keep this a woman friendly site while still allowing for healthy debate, but every so often something not so woman friendly slips through! I’ll try to be more vigilant in future.
Um, I was just blackballed by an OB because I refused to give consent for a Pap smear…
Wow. So what does that translate into? I mean in terms of results? I guess this is a problem that can make birth control LESS accessible.
Hi what does blackballed mean? Have you been taken off their list? I am so glad you stood your ground regarding the Pap smear. The more women do this the better. It needs to be a choice for those who want it. Not some carte blanch programme to rape every women on the planet. Stand firm because I suspect they will not let the subject drop.
Take your head out of the sand. Wake up. Read Proverbs Ch. 6 vs 29.
Presuming to know the true sex of the author based on structure is ridiculous. My writing is almost always identified by programs as that of an European male. I happen to be an American female.
I believe the testimony to be legitimate. Consider. Medical students select a specialty when they are still young. Why would a young adult male want to attend to female sex organs? They can’t all have a passion for ushering new life into the world or have mothers who died from cervical cancer. Some portion of them (bi or lesbian female doctors also) must have become ob/gyns for ignoble reasons.
That said…
My mom went to an ob/gyn as a virgin right before her wedding because she thought she had to. The doctor was miffed that she didn’t want a pelvic exan because she didn’t want him to break her hymen. The doctor told her she should “sit on a Coke bottle” so that she would enjoy her wedding night. Also, my husband’s grandmother was a nurse from the 1970s through the 1990s. She’s told me enough stories about arrogant doctors that I know better than to assume they are all decent people. I know I will never submit to a male doctor for intimate screenings. They are too suspicious.
I never understood the whole having a gyn exam before marriage. I know of somone else that did thst its rediculas but nothing about gynecology makes since to me all seems to be be made up and baded on ignorance about woman and there bodies.
It happend to my family member back in the erly 60s. She was tied to a hospital bad so she could not get up and use the bath room. And the nurse held her legs shut so she could not push her baby out till the doctor got to the room. The head was already comming out and she was screeming in pain. When i told her what happen to her was wrong and i didnt understand why she didnt sue or press charges. She made it seem like woman trusted there doctorsd back then and alot of woman back thin were scared to question authority figuers or ones they thought were and she was and is very trusting twards doctors. she also said the doctor cut her open down there and she fainted from the pain because they didnt numb her and that ahole doctor didnt feel he needed to ask her permistion to do any thing. It made my blood boil. No wonder they didnt let husbands in when there wifes were birthing they whould probly attack the doctor for mistreatment.
Chris W.: Just out of curiosity, what do you consider hard evidence? Ultimately, all evidence is anecdotal. Also, medical communities mose certainly do black-ball people for various things, it’s just usually for something that happens or doesn’t happen in the office. It doesn’t have to be KNOWN for doing these things in order to actually do them.
Kleigh: Why don’t they attack the doctor now? I’ve noticed a less confrontational male these days, at least in America. That “tend & befriend” pattern of response might not be 100% when it comes to women, but it really is the typical manner of response with men & women in America currently. I mentioned this before: how it’s recruitment as a method of recourse & that’s more or less it.
I also don’t get why people say “in any other situation/setting/context this WOULD be sexual assault (or any other type of attack).” Instead of trying to point out that there’s frequently a contradiction between description & situation, they should just call it for what it is.
There’s even a Chinese proverb that goes “Wisdom begins with calling things by their correct names.” I guess because I don’t know who said that it’s not true, though- eh, Chris W?
There is a website called birth trauma, the stuff of nightmares.
These accounts are sadly, fairly common and there is no doubt in my mind this sort of experience still awaits some laboring women, how many? I have no idea.
I think for a long time these accounts were dismissed, “you’ve got a healthy baby, haven’t you?”…hardly the point when the mother ends up with PTSD, depression etc.
This is the UK chapter, I think there is a branch in a few countries, including Canada.
http://www.birthtraumaassociation.org.uk/default.asp
Elizabeth I suspect those sorts of experiences sadly await many more women. It seems to be similar to the pap experience, where many women have no idea that their own experiences of being coerced into pap tests in dr’s offices are similar to many other women’s experiences. Many women probably think their own bad birthing experience is rare, at least until they do a web search and discover they are far from being alone. Here’s another disturbing article. It’s about a woman who dies following a cesarean: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-150001/Stressed-mother-died-Caesarean.html I wonder how many women die as a result of cesarean. It doesn’t make it clear in the article if the woman had wanted a cesarean or if it was pushed on her, but given she was terrified of needles it might have been the latter. It is interesting that the inquest had been told the woman had “died of acute cardiac failure with unknown cause”.
Isn’t all this the type of shit heroes in the stories would kill? There was some kind of monster or evil king or some such & they’d be slain on sight, much to the delight of the people. Sometimes the general people killed the creature themselves! This really is the type of shit that people would be convinced that someone was demonically possessed for & maybe that wasn’t a miscalculation.
I mean this literally, but even if someone isn’t actually possessed by a demon the effect is still maintained. If they’re just like that with no paranormal situations attached, what’s the difference?
Another thing is that it’s particularly telling is to apply all this to CHILDBIRTH. I know I’ve mentioned there being a general antagonistism to life in allopathic medicine from the start, but I figure it bears repeating. Particularly with the American kind, since pretty much anything that comes down the pipes basically attacks you!
I am a doctor this is crazy. One Drs perspective does not account for the majority. There are many pelvics performed for fear of being sued later (well no one did an exam so it’s his/her fault) or b/c you might have missed something (the swollen joint is due to gonorrhea that is spread via the blood). You see so many peoples penises and vaginas that it becomes normal to the point sexual desire can be affected with partners. One thing is true, I would rather do an exam on people who have hygiene. I have also diagnosed things I didn’t expect (retained objects causing blood infection for example). Most of us avoid pelvics b/c we know patients feel uncomfortable and it makes an exam much longer (there is no time to do an appropriate work up anymore and the pressure of time is huge). There are freaks, they exist everywhere, Use your instincts. Just believe me this perspective is not the norm.
Doctors doing these things on their own accord is not right. That is iatrogenic abuse, regardless of if the doctor feels okay with it or not. Fear of a baseless lawsuit is not an excuse for this kind of behavior. There IS a risk of being sued for something baselessly, it’s part of the territory. What is the idea? They they’re imposing penetration on someone in self-defense? The safety of the assailant, whether they use low-key methods or not, is irrelevant.
They were not prompted & do not usually give full disclosure about risks, inaccuracies, or alternatives (including self-performing). This is fraud & since deception vitiates consent, an assault as well. There’s also usually no mention of incentive payments for this or for any follow-ups that could be precipitated by the “results.” No mention of it being illegal to withhold birth control for not getting probed, either.
By-the-way: Are doctors NOT selected, trained, and certified? So the common trends of this community, both officially & unofficially, can be presumed to be related to that or to pre-existing alignment. They don’t seem to band together against someone that tends toward dictatorial behavior with someone else’s body. Seems that the staff just sides with whoever can fire them- or get them fired through channels.
What about being sued because you didn’t get full informed consent from the woman regarding the fact that, as new research has shown, the exam is basically useless and is not good for diagnosing uterine or ovarian cancer. Many women have been lied to and coerced into pelvic exams because of lies about the necessity of the exam and to obtain the birth control pill.
If there is concern about STIs that can be done via blood work or urine.
It’s not about you and how many people’s private parts you see in a day. It’s about the woman and her level of comfort and the right to refuse an exam without fear of reprisal.
It’s interesting how the fear of being sued is always brought up with women’s health care but with other things such as refusing the taking of blood pressure or getting a flu shot Dr’s don’t worry about that. Yet refusal of either one of those things could be life threatening.
As we on the board have said it’s not about women’s health care.
Right on ATM.
Seriously? You are trying to explain performing a pelvic (a degrading and humiliating exam) on a woman with a swollen joint because she might have gonorrhea? gee…are there other much less invasive tests for this if you REALLY think the swollen joint might be from gonorrhea…one wonders if part of this equation used by male docsa includes how good the subject looks…because of course it makes sense that sexy ladies are more likely…
I’m sorry but how many people in this forum have a medical degree? There is a reason that we study for so many years and rack up so much debt while studying medicine. Yes you can screen for gonorrhoea using urine samples but the diagnostic testing should be done on swabs taken during an examination. Yes gonorrhoea can cause a swollen joint, it’s called reactive arthritis, you probably should have checked that before shaming a medical professional who was trying to demonstrate that you cannot judge another doctor without knowing all the facts. Additionally a pelvic exam is the least invasive way to determine whether someone has complications associated with STIs such as pelvic inflammatory disease (a major cause of female factor infertility), and therefore is often a necessary test. As someone who is in the final stages of my medical degree I have been taught by probably 15 to 20 obstetricians and gynaecologists. During this time I have seen only one doctor do a pelvic exam which I believed unnecessary and I called him out on this. It is this ridiculous judgement of doctors and the assumption that we think we are ‘superior’ which breaks down the important bonds between patients and doctors. We do not think we are superior to you and 99% of doctors prefer to help you make an informed decision about your own health. This doctor shaming sentiment that I am seeing all too often on social media needs to stop. Don’t look for reasons to attack people who are trying to help you and if you feel uncomfortable with what you are being told then ask why or do your research before you lash out.
I almost fell out my chair laughing while reading your response. What a self-pitying case you are. The old “I’ve gone into debt and studied years so I can only be your hero and you just won’t let me!” And this. “Us doctors, don’t be mean to us, we’re never mean to anybody. We’re dress up in smocks and wear gloves because we’re love monsters!”
What I quickly noticed about you is the familiar shift the subject away from bad medicine and try to confuse us by mixing one fact and a wheel barrow load of crap. So you say STD’s are best diagnosed by swabbing. You carefully didn’t mention that also comes with the word “internal” as internal exam. That comes with pap scrape (yeah, you’re reading correctly–scrape not smear). Long before the nice gentle swabbing. You liar! Typical doctor alright.
Would you use dry steel wool to clean off your own scraped knee which is full of detritus? What, you wouldn’t? Oh, then why, I ask, would you use a wooden spatula to scrape the one cellular layer of protection we have against HPV away–if we in fact have HPV? That’s just driving the virus in deeper where we can’t fight if off. Right?! Yeah, you bet I’m right.
Same applies to the colpo brush.
You liar. STD’s are BEST diagnosed via urine. Yep. Wake up and educate yourself away from the thrills you give yourself between our legs. The Trovagene test is 93% accurate on both HPV and STD’s. Uses antibody pickup and PCR technology.
And we collect our own samples, in our own bathrooms at home!!
Aran’t you happy for us? For yourself? What? You’re NOT happy? What? Because you don’t get to do the full internal exam huh? Poor thing.
But at least now you can really go out and save lives. Instead of pretending to save lives through the pap scrape.
You say other cancers are discovered that way? No they aren’t. And you know this too.
We all know that paps are scored by computer. A computer that’s programmed to recognize only one kind of cell. Even with oversampling and with having a human pathologist sample some of the samples etc etc, you cannot guarantee me anything better than 53%.
Other cancers will have long metasticized before any symptoms will be discovered by your fingers inside my vagina.
Yep…I see you smiling. You know you’ve been found out like all the rest.
Don’t lie to me, or try to distract me by confusing the facts like doctors are known to do. Like you did while urinating and moaning about how tough your life is.
YOU chose your career. You knew what you were getting into. School, career, accts receivable write-offs, etc. And in med school you learned how to lie. How simple it is to look serious and snow patients with BS-rich terms such as “rule-out,” and “suspicious,” etc.
What’s more, doc, is the fact that you DON’T need to be squeezing my nipples anymore either. If they are leaking any fluids they aren’t supposed to be, I’ll know it long before you do. You call it “defensive medicine” and you have to do it or you might be sued. One day you might get castrated too if you keep it up…pun intended ha ha.
Squeezing my nipples, then watching them when you finger bang (oops I meant internally examine me)…you seem to know my every sensitive area. My clitoris you must check that out. Then my g-spot, my anterior and posterior fornix. The latter done via rectal or the two finger salute being the rectovaginal which is known to give me the “full feeling.” You know it by my engorgement, by my lubricating (which you also cause involuntarily), and my arousal which I fight by deep breathing.
You prefer my husband is outside the room. I prefer he watches over your shoulder. And asks you lots of questions. While you seem to like asking me about my sex life while you’re down there, you don’t like to discuss things my husband asks you… Hmmm. Wonder why?!
Don’t come here begging, then whining, then acting all authoritive, and then admonish us. This place isn’t your home, I’m not your wife, nor is this your office and I’m certainly not on your table. You won’t be paid here either for bullying me or trying to do same to my husband. Outside your office you’re insecure, and scared. What would you do w/o reserved parking and free lunch?
You’d have to work for a living.
Your med school colleagues are ultra competitive. They out drink, out screw, out perform everybody else in their class or they panic that their doctor instructors will excoriate them. And then you come back into the real world thinking none of us qualifies to know what you know.
Am I close?
My husband’s best friend from high school back in the 1980’s is an anesthesiologist in AL. A very nice guy who’s now a sniveling liar. Lost his wife as 66% do in his field. Now he whines and complains while claiming nobody else has a right to do anything but serve him.
Be different. Treat us with the respect you want. Treat us like women; the greatest gift God made for mankind. Don’t treat us like your med school cadavers. We deserve better.
Who taught me these things? Who told me these things? Who wants me sexually as much now as he did 25+ yrs ago? My husband.
Got sick and tired of being lied to. Hubby is no longer friends with the anesthesiologist. Seems the doctor prefers to keep secret the things done to our naked bodies. Dr didn’t like it when my husband woke up during a pre-op; then called the Dr long-distance wanting truthful answers.
Lets say I had a swollen leg or joints. I am not sexually active but the doctor ie most doctors whould not believe me and try to push me to still have a pelvic. Now i have a issue with this because at 17 I had pain in my side and was told ” im going to do a pelvic exam on you to cheeck for ovarian cysts. I was a virgin and it felt like the doctor was riping my insides out trying to get the speculum in. Sorry tmi. Well fast forward a few weeks latter my parents insurance sends a statement to are home stateing that I was screened for gonarea. We were all freaked out. My parents had very good insurance and I am asumming I was taken advantage of. Somthing strang tho i never saw any swabs or felt any swabs being taken. And i was never told he was gona cheek for an std. To this day I am Thertyone and never had another pelvic or pap and my cycles are regular never had a problem and i dont trust doctors sorry. I will not go to a gyn for them to seek out problems when i know my body. I just feel so many woman and girls are put in a degrading and painful situation because of what doctors are trained to do to Us.
Mad. Having a medical degree doesn’t give anyone the right to take away someone’s choice. I have a couple of ‘certificates’ I’ve got over the years for studying one thing or another and I suspect some of the other women here have as well. I would never force my knowledge on anyone and neither should you.
The pelvic exam you witnessed was in fact a rape. You participated in another woman’s rape and you stood by and watched and did nothing. Disgusting.
Do some research into the fact your Hypocratic Oath swears to ‘Apollo’ a descendent of one of the fallen Angels and not to God himself. It says it all about you and your kind.
Mad – Guess what? Luckily for us patients, despite the fact that doctors and their narcissistic ways think differently, we patients have common sense. We also have every right to turn down what ever procedures/exams/tests that doctors are selling.
This comment of yours reveals so much – “Additionally a pelvic exam is the least invasive way…” This exam is about as invasive as it gets. No amount of spin alters the fact that this exam leaves women vulnerable, creates massive amounts of undue stress and in the end serves little purpose.
What you do find is that this exam is used mostly on women that are listed by these same doctors as “attractive” in the doctors notes. If this person was not attractive the “necessity” of this particular exam drops considerably.
I’ll give another example – The breast exam – after probing each breast the good doctor twists and squeezes the nipple, the explanation is to note if there is discharge. I submit that in the entire history of these exams I am certain not one woman suddenly discovered from this exam that she had nipple discharge. She could simply be asked, she would certainly note if they felt different, if there was discharge or discoloring in her bra…and even more likely she would have already have noticed the sensation of wetness at some point before the good doctor twisted and tweaked her nipples. This exam is and always has been about doctors doing what they can get away with…not about the best interest of the patient.
#NotAllDoctors
oh, looks like the “good” doctor is worried that his dirty
little perk has its days numbered!
Nope, they will vehemently resist forward thinking &
research, keep the cost of medical care high and will
opt out-of informed consent, self-testing education,
blood/urine tests for STD’s, ultrasound etc. and
continue to withhold birth control if the patient
resists the stirrups/bi-manual, breast exams
even though by doing so they will continue
to break the law.
Shame on you doctor simon…burst on here
will ya, preach that you don’t even notice the
attractive women in the stirrups. You have
pushed your power trip’n bullshit in the wrong
forum this time my friend. We know
you enjoy the young and/or attractive women
before your eyes. Give it up already will ya.
The doctor in this study is the real man
who has admitted what is really going on here
in the minds of most male doctors. Heres a thought, defer
the intimate exam to same sex providers? Its the
wave of the future maybe its time to get on board.
Karen: What does #NotAllDoctors mean?
Mad.. Why does everything in medicine come back to our vaginas? One of the final straws for me was being berated about smear testing in the middle of a review of migraine meds! Maybe rogue cervical cancer cells migrated to my head? Well I’m still alive anyway!!
Exactly ladies and before diving into our vaginas perhaps a few questions are you sexually active? No? Fine. Yes? Any discharge pain on sex/urinating? Any sores on vagina ect? Just a thought!
Thank you for say this, Dr. I appreciate that.
Good catch, Eddie. Blood & urine tests work for STDs & they frequently con women into other tests, figuring that it’ll sound good because it’s a related theme.
ADM- The supposed concern about being sued brings up an idea: Maybe it’s something they realize is wrong, so it instantly connects to the idea of lawsuits & court, and then they decide to flip it into a defense- that way someone will think “Oh, well if they’d get sued for NOT doing something, how am I going to bring up charges FOR doing these things?” Saying “No, don’t sue me!” or “You can’t sue for that” sounds a little too much like “never mind that man behind the curtain.” Trying to get behind whatever they’re worried about coming at them. Sometimes the simple shit is a subtle tactic because it’s unexpected.
It would also sound like one would be arguing against a self-defense urge (usually not effective) & like they’re the “bad guy” for pushing that situation on these people. It also comes off like there’s some mysterious “bad-guy” somewhere in the shadows causing this to happen to them- maybe even like there’s some kind of common ground between them & the doctor (like they’re both victims in this situation & there’s some kind of bond between them).
It also reminds me of how child molestors tell the kids that they’ll get in trouble if they tell anyone. I guess there’s a running theme or betrayed trust & molestation. Isn’t it suprising that if someone “plays doctor” on a child, they get into shit- but when someone imposes these same actions on someone & gets a paycheck for it, it’s (at least sometimes) seen as innocent?
It really is a defense mechanism to protect the program of the well woman’s exam. If they were so afraid of being sued than we wouldn’t have a choice about anything. We wouldn’t be able to decline any test or treatment. We have the right to informed refusal and people decline treatment for cancer and choose to die or they choose to not take a medication and Dr’s accept that but when the topic of testing for female specific cancers comes up the line of fear of being sued is said. Dr’s manage to chart refusal for other tests and treatments but if it was such a concern then have us sign a waiver. It’s a cover for not getting full informed consent which for someone reason never enters their head that they can be sued for that. It is to protect the programs and incentive payments.
The “we see so many” argument is hogwash as well. I happen to see a lot of air conditioning equipment, because that is what I do, I service this equipment. Each unit is separate and distinct…and it’s not even a living breathing entity.In fact after servicing many units that are in terrible condition I especially appreciate the nice new shiny equipment I run across. Something human in me tells me that seeing an especially attractive, nice smelling soft speaking and demure ladies genitals up close and personal for as long as I choose to would be very stimulating, it might make be be very gentle, very patient, very kind, very deliberate and quite thorough. Unless of course I somehow possessed some form of super human abilities. All through this procedure, knowing I would love to do it again, I’m certain I would act quite professional.
Worked for a male OB/GYN for years, I could have told women this! I prefer female docs…
Luanne, I have deleted all comments as requested. The way comments work on this site:
If you are a first time commenter your comment will be kept for moderation until it is read and approved for posting. If you have provided an email when you comment, and if your comment is approved, then all further comments are automatically posted by WordPress. If an IP address is marked as spam by WordPress, or if the commenter makes an error in typing their email – then the comment will be held for moderation again. If there is no email address then the comment will always be held for moderation.
It is not possible for the author of a comment to edit a comment after it has been posted, but if you want a comment edited you could let me know and I would be happy to edit it for you.
Sue
Reblogged this on A Holistic Journey and commented:
This is for both men and women. On how some male doctors can’t keep their maleness outside the exam room when they’re with a female patient.
I appreciate the follow and active support. =) I wanted to get the alert out on this important post. My husband read it and I also shared it with a megablogger (OM, if you’re familiar). I’m glad to have connected. =)
Thank you Holistic Wayfarer! I was delighted to see the substantial increase in ‘likes’ following your reblog – yours is an influential force! I appreciate your support and advocacy about this important topic. I’m very glad to have connected as well.
Cheers,
Sue 🙂
I’m happy to have supported you, Sue, and my Stats said you got a lot of views.
Xxx
HW
The thing in that photo looks like a Medieval torture instrument. Are such contraptions really used on sensitive parts of a person’s body, without anaesthetic? You need to do another article on the well-known research on private conversations doctors have about painful medical procedures, during which more than half of them have made utterances suggestive of sadism..
I haven’t had a pap smear since the days I was trying to get pregnant (after two pregnancies). I had been misdiagnosed years ago and had scar tissue completely blocking my tubes and they were not even in the correct place. This was a woman doctor. She said before surgery 0% chance of pregnancy. I had surgery. After surgery 50% chance. Never conceived. Never went for another pap as my feet had been in enough stirrups, I also have never had a mammogram. I am now 50 and post menopausal ~ a wonderful gift for my 50th birthday! I will never go for either test. Ever.
I don’t blame you. I found this site because my doctor’s office (today) suggested via a form that I get a pap smear because I’m “past due” for one. How do you handle doctors or nurses shaking their head at you for not having these exams done?
I tell them, no holds barred, that I know where to find them if I want to have one of them done. Don’t call me, I’ll call you. Naturally, they call anyway or if I’m in for a blood draw off my port, they (the MA) will start to ask and I say, save your breath, the answer is no, and the RN says to the MA see, I told you she would say that! But we have to ask. 🙂
When I get the phone calls from the hospital staff saying that I haven’t made my appointment for my mammogram, I say that’s because I’m not having one. No, you may not set up an appointment with me now or ever, thank you anyway. 🙂
Its not that hard… you just have to be your own advocate. Remember, its your body and you can choose how its invaded or not. I prefer not to put my feet in stirrups any longer and now I’m overweight and have an indwelling foley so I highly doubt there will be any fantasizing going on there. And let’s not forget that there are women that are homosexuals in the business. So you need to go where you feel comfortable regardless of the gender of the physician.
I have no family history of breast cancer or uterine cancer so why go through all the ubbubb about it? It I were concerned, I would seek a doctor for that. I’m not, so I don’t. I have plenty of other health issues to be concerned with that my “ta tas” as they put it.
Hope that helps, Tracy Ann!
Blessings,
Rhonda aka nanarhonda
Oh my goodness!!! I can’t even believe what I just read!!! No wonder the few times I’ve had pap smears from 2 different male doctors I felt awkward and creepy afterward. One doctor was in his mid 70’s and semi retired but was standing in for another doctor that was on vacation, and another doctor was in his mid 40’s and just seemed like he was attracted to me before the exam started. The older doctor gave me a lecture after the exam about my sexual history that I had to fill out before the exam. He said I was too young to not be more sexually active!!! As if that was any of his business. His nurse apologized to me after the exam and told me to call and complain about him. The younger doctor, said I should come back in 6 months for another exam, but I never went back to him eek!!!! And, I don’t think I’m all that attractive or anything like that but it’s just really sickening to think that they want to see your privates again and again. WOW!!!! Thank goodness for female nurses having to be in the room.
Those nurses are usually there to back up the doctor. The STATED purpose is otherwise, but functionally they tend to paint whatever picture makes the doctor look good & add “from a woman” weight to things. A woman might be more likely to think another woman would have solidarity or whatever with her, but that can very easily not be the case.
Something to keep in mind: Arousal can absolutely play a role in these things & that applies to people of the same sex as well as those of a different one. There’s no reason that a woman can’t be an aggressive lesbian or bisexual & some people just have a taste for compulsion. Some people have warped tastes (like someone getting turned on by lying or stealing or setting things on fire) & there’s other forms of gratification, anyway.
Gratification’s only an accentuating factor, anyway. After all, a woman can run another woman over with her car- it’s still an attack, whether she gets any gratification out of it at all. Whether something HAPPENS or not is the determinating one.
Women need to stop thinking they are “safe” by having intimate exams done by another woman. That is bullshit. I was stalked by a lesbian radiologist who I was sent to several times for breast ultrasounds and a breast biopsy. I still remember how uncomfortable it made me feel when her eyeballs nearly fell out of her head when she saw my large breasts. She questioned me about a lot of personal things, and stupid me was too naive and just thought she was making small talk to pass the time or make me less nervous. A week after my biopsy, which she botched by the way, she showed up at the church I was attending (which she had asked me about because she saw I was wearing a religious necklace) and she tried to get a date with me. I went to a different radiology office for tests after that for several years till damn it she shows up working for this other office and gets to do my thyroid scan. Thank God it was just my thyroid and nothing more intimate. The disgusting part is she walks into the room and says real breathy “Hi, remember me?”. Is that not creepy? It had been maybe 5 years since the breast exams she had done. Why would I remember her? Well except for the fact she shows up at my church and tried to get a date with me. Months after that I go to another radiology office for another breast ultrasound because a nodule shows up in breast when I had a lung CT scan. Well a different girl does that breast ultrasound, she seems real feminine and would have thought she was straight. She kept quizzing me about where I work etc and I said I had just been laid off and was losing medical insurance soon. She claimed she felt so sorry for me and after the exam after being given only a washcloth to cover my breasts she insists I should give her a hug so I will feel better. What the heck?
As if all that wasn’t enough more recently I had a heart test done and the nurse instead of just asking me to move my breast over she grabs hold of my nipple pinching it hard and flops my breast out of the way. Ok women medical personnel are not any safer or nicer than males, so don’t fool yourself into thinking nothing can happen if you are examined by a female.
I am due to book a smear test so was really keen to read this. Very useful points and again, I have never had this done by a male doctor. I am lucky in that regard. I did have some test done in Lagos once by a male doc, there were two nurses in the exam room with him, this also was a bit over the top as just one nurse would have been just fine.
I wonder if men have the same experience with female docs?
Many years ago a friend recommended I read a book called, HOW DOCTORS MANIPULATE WOMEN, by a doctor named Mendelson, if I remember correctly. I am sure the title is correct, but I have not been able to find a copy of that book myself. Has anyone here heard of it?
Some women want to believe they need these exams yearly, but they should think of how x-rays can also cause cancer. Consider whether anyone really should go that route.
I have this book around here somewhere, and several others on sexual misconduct by male doctors.
Heres a different male doctor saying the same thing in different words. Definitely worth a read Ladies…
http://www.calorababy.co.za/for-you/doctors-without-boundaries-sexual-exploitation-by-male-doctors.html
Did you guys read the begning? The average woman can expect 50 pelvics in her lifetime. Weather she is pregnant or has gun problem. What did woman do before gynecology was invented. And they are seeming a message that woman have to deal with pelvics . it upsets me so bad. I think its so demeaning and disrespectful to put woman in that position .
http://www.amazon.com/Male-Practice-Doctors-Manipulate-Women/dp/0809257211
Hi Beth
Found the book on Amazon. Sounds like an interesting read, although I think most of us could have written the book!
Elizabeth, what a sweetie you are! Yes, that is the book that was recommended to me, but of course doctors in general are supposed to have such sterling reputations that laymen will not believe it if you tell them they don’t. I have a son-in-law who is an MD and a daughter and granddaughter who are RNs, so the medical profession is not unfamiliar to me. But I have also lived long enough to have grown skeptical of some practices. I know one army doctor OBGYN deliberately caused me to have a miscarriage when I went for a second trimester exam because, as *he* said, “There are enough brats in the world.” I am not a fighter, so I did not press charges. Eleven years later, I finally adopted a son and gave birth to a precious baby daughter within the same year. 😉
Thanks again for searching this for me. I may learn more here than I would by reading the book, but I will be happy to have it anyway–just to pass on to others.
Wait, you were in the army & he decided to give you a miscarriage? Holy shit! I’m sure some guy in prison would have ridden him repeatedly for that! He just went “There are enough brats in the world” and gave you a miscarriage?
I’ve got to ask: Does the army try to manage the pregnancy of the soldiers?
I’ve heard that they force internal exams on women (I don’t know if there’s any wrestling or fighting if they refuse, but mandates ARE an outside orchestration). It’s kind of a question mark if there’s legal support or if it’s just one of those things that they try to enforce an impression on.
I have recently become obsessed ans stressed about my gf having a pelvic from a male doc. Turns out a nurse just did a pap. (uk btw) but the intimacy of a.pelvic bothers me a lot and she just says its a doctor it means nothing. But no man but me should do those things to her. Its just wrong and she won’t be convinced otherwise. She is having her arm implant out soon as it runs out this year and going on the pill. I dont want some doc shoving his hand up there and i feel worried and ammoyed that these tests could be done. Ji
Dear Simon from 7/3/14. Get over your denial and accept the truth that so many women here are saying. A man who performs pelvics all day and cannot get aroused? Sure–if he has prostatitis from being overly aroused over and over again and doesn’t have the time to “relieve” all the back pressure. Basically he’s “clogged” and stops functioning b/c his prostate can’t hold any more. Gross and true. This is a man’s instinct. Get erect and spread seed when seeing a vagina.
And what’s described about “gonorrhea spreading bacteria to joints…” is also true. In very advanced cases this can happen. And if so, then there’s gonna be so many symptoms any doctor would have to perform a full physical, sent many vials of blood to the lab, and eventually question whether the cause is the vagina.
However, what in reality happens is this. A woman I know was “pelvic’ed” by one particular every time she was sick, so much that she stopped going to him for treatments. A doctor who wants to get a woman helpless onto the “rack” so he can feast his eyes and play/invade her as much as possible w/o getting sued or being accused of cheating will think, and do exactly as you say.
He’ll claim any infection, from a tooth abscess to a common cold, could “possibly” be originating from a vaginal infection and it has “to be ruled out.” Or else no other treatment. Yes, we call it being bullied. A loud male in authority telling us it’s either his way or no way. And he gets his way. Then at the end, he makes the usual stupid statement of “well I really didn’t think but “WE” had to be sure…and it’s my duty as your doctor and you pay me for that…and now you can rest easy. But you need to come back in four months for your usual pap so we can continue with this and make sure it isn’t your vagina causing things…I possibly saved your life today…because we “ruled out your vagina,” once the labs come back confirming that you’ll be on the right antibiotic…but if you get a suspected yeast infection…come back so I can “make sure” b/c otherwise I’ll get in trouble…” As for me, it was my husband who put this misery to an end by years ago saying “NO” for me. Thanks to him and this site, I’m educated and speak for myself.
The thrill goes away when hubby or boyfriend is present and watching the male or female doctor.
Darren, talk to your gf. Make sure you are with her, and get her permission in writing that it’s ok for you to speak up during the exam. Have her say where she wants you to sit, whether it’s by her side holding her hand or behind the doctor so, per her saying so, you can learn and become more of her partner in healthcare. If the doctor is against this, or is bossy or make s the scene uncomfortable, or the nurse tries to herd you away, your gf MUST complain immediately or it will appear you are the cause of concern and your gf is ok with the clinic rules and her “quiet” non-participation is a hint she wants you gone. Staff picks up on things like this.
You should be there. Ask questions, she is your partner and vice-versa. This will be either very bonding or a hint your relationship is going to end. If you can’t get past the doctor office w/o problems then kids, marriage, owning property together won’t happen. Make sure she also reads things here, and understands she is the boss, and you are more important than any doctor who is in fact working for her and should be taking her orders. If the doctor isn’t personally invested, then he/she should have no problem letting her decide where you should be and participating. Also make sure she knows how likely she can have a false positive between 20-30 and end up having her cervix amputated by a LEEP or LLETZ in UK. “Moo” is spot-on with what she says on this–go to http://www.forwomenseyesonly.com and look at the pictures she posted last week.
Also, it’s normal for us women to experience clitoral engorgement during these exams. We may not even know it’s happening. Or we can become wet. This is our body responding, as your own does during a prostate exam. Not at all fun. Doctors can take advantage of us as much as it can also happen to men. You can watch YouTube to see what else happens during these useless so-called exams. Hope and pray everything is ok.
I trried to talk to her about it when she was booked for her pap. She just said its a doctor its fine and doesnt mean any thing. But it does to me. The thought of a man peeforming a pelvic bother me. A lot. I have seen videos and its horrible. I tried to talk to her about it and dismissed my concerns as me being weird about it. What to do?
Darren, personally before marriage I went through what you’re talking about here. My husband to be researched things and asked questions. He asked me was to keep an open mind and talk things through so together we could make difficult decisions. I refused, mostly taking my mother’s or friend’s advice, even laughing a couple times. He described years how close he came to breaking up. He says this is my worst quality. Hate to admit, he was right and my taking him for granted meant I, and we, lost out on things that would have been of great benefit. These matters comprise our worst arguments. When I’ve wanted equal influence over him, there’s been occasion when I didn’t get it and this is why.
This is a life lesson. How much do you love each other? The respect and attention given you now will not increase come marriage. Your relationship life rules are being drawn up with each date, and every phone call. Does she ever take you out? Or does she expect to do her own thing while you clean up after her? Matters like this will either break a marriage or temper it stronger than steel. What you experience now will also apply come children, and if you’re feeling excluded and rejected now, those times are why so many couples divorce. Men are regarded as important until pregnancy, then unfortunately and wrongly many women, especially pregnancy nurses, regard husbands as “look what you did, and you want sex?” If you are treated as unimportant and unneeded now, just wait!
Two reasons we made it through are God, and that we do everything together, including doctor visits. We’ve seen each other naked and held each other’s hands through many things. Doctors have their education and nurses. The best advocate is your spouse or someone having that level of trust. That person can research medical topics, and is there to stick up for you, ask questions, make sure the right things are documented, and demand appropriate pain care & Rx’s. Just entering the room the patient is outnumbered and can’t do all these things on their own.
This girl lacks maturity compared to you. No amount of looks compensates for two brains evaluating and agreeing on a plan, including sex. You are alone here, and will continue to be “on the outside looking in” during this relationship. All you can do is warn her, step back and let her learn on her own. When things you say begin coming true, perhaps she will realize her errors, like I did, and come around. If not, thank God you got away!! There is a girl out there with intelligence matching your own, who won’t bore you, with looks and smells that will mesmerize you the rest of your life. That girl will also pay closer attention to her hygiene. You’ll compliment each other, and the world will move out of your way. Thank God, pray, ask Him!!! [we’re praying for you] Trust me. If only we had life’s experience guiding us as we live our lives. Not only do you marry the girl, but you marry her family too. Let me know what happens. And, whether it’s a man or a woman performing the pelvic (vaginal as truthfully said here), this is an unnecessary exam that should be outright banned. Anybody can abuse anybody at anytime. This exam is an enabler.
Dr Simon. Come clean. Tell us exactly how many times you’ve treated advanced gonorrhea that has spread to a joint. Versus your thought that it might be interesting to perform a pelvic on a woman on less than definitive symptoms. Have you ever enjoyed, no let me say experienced an erection or even ejaculated during an exam? Ever not be able to control smiling during an exam? Are you more likely to perform a pelvic on a young attractive women than an older women with six kids who has a positive history of vaginal problems? What about these same questions and rectal exams? Have you ever needed to masturbate during your work day?
My husband’s best friend went through med school, and first thing he commented when visiting us was the hot shaved college babe who made $3,500 for “volunteering” and how it shocked him and the six other med students. I’ll never forget the look on his face. Or how many women go to ER’s and end up having pelvics for strange reasons. Or how all you f*** head doctors lie and say you “do what we can to protect dignity during surgery” when in fact we’re stark naked at least 15 minutes on either end of surgery, prep and clean up. Or how doctors in surgery will go and check out breast enhancements when a women is under. And I know female nurses and female doctors are no better because my family has them…and when drunk they talk in detail… None of you have an answer when confronted factually about the pap scrape being unnecessary as we’re shedding dermal cells 24/7 into our mucus. And that you can’t feel anything during a bimanual.
You lying SOB!! Try that for a perspective… Hope one day you get caught on your lies.