Every time I go to a walk in clinic the doctor asks me “When was your last pap test?” Even though my reasons for visiting have nothing to do with my reproductive organs — once I went because of a sprained ankle, another time because of a flu — it doesn’t seem to matter to the doctors. They are always more interested in finding out the date of my last pap test than in finding out about my actual problem.
And because I’ve never once had a doctor explain anything about pap tests to me, I never even knew what they were for until one day I did my own research, and only then did I learn they were used to screen for cervical cancer. I was shocked when I also learned that cervical cancer is RARE, that pap tests are rampantly inaccurate, and that doctors are supposed to be offering us a choice about whether or not to screen.
So, the last time I needed to see a doctor, I decided to turn down the inevitable offer of a pap test. This post is for all you women who need to see a doctor but who, like me, have decided not to have a pap test or pelvic exam.
After years of compliance, this is how the experience of saying “no” played out:
I’m up for this and I arrive feeling in control – I can do this no problem . .
Trying to stay limber in the waiting room
And trying not to think about some doctor’s attitudes
Finally shown into the exam room and soon after the doctor walks in
Here’s hoping the doctor will focus on the reason for my visit, but one of the first questions the doctor asks is “when was your last pap test?”
And I’m like
But then I gather courage, and explain that I’m not there for a pap test because I’ve chosen to not participate in cervical cancer screening
And the doctor’s like
The doctor says things like “but it’s for your own good, pap tests save lives, it only takes a minute and since you’re here anyway . . .”. I’m tempted to give in
But no, I actually feel like doing this
And this
But I take the high road and instead do something like this
Explaining the reasons why I have decided to opt out of cervical cancer screening (for example, because cervical cancer is rare and pap tests are rampantly inaccurate, etc.) did not go over too well with the doctor. Doctors make extra money from pap tests, and some doctors also don’t like to have their opinions questioned. Bringing up the reasons why I’m opting out of screening (no matter how valid and well researched those reasons are) led to a long argument, and I end up in this type of situation:
After much verbal sparring, I end up getting my way. But another idea occurs to me in the process: in the future if I don’t want to go through a lot of arguing, I could always say I’m currently having a heavy period. Or, if I don’t want to lie, I could schedule my appointment for that time of the month.
Or, if the doctor’s a male, I could act surprised and then say I only allow women to perform pap tests, never men
Or, I can bring a really big guy with me into the exam room
But, how ever you decide to approach it, if you manage to get what you need without being coerced into an unwanted exam, then congratulations – well done!
More on this topic:
Other ways to combat pap test coercion: https://forwomenseyesonly.com/2012/12/06/three-ways-to-combat-doctors-bullying-you-into-unwanted-pap-tests-and-pelvic-exams/
Female doctor who does not have pap tests: http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/2234123-why-i-don-t-have-smears
Informed consent missing: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/11/informed-consent-missing-pap-smears-cervical-cancer-screening.html
What some male doctors do when women say “no”: https://forwomenseyesonly.com/2012/10/17/what-some-male-doctors-do-when-women-say-no/
forwomenseyesonly 
Dr Sunshine, with regards to medical knowledge…….please look at the pages here on References and Education.
well, i did look at some links, they weren’t exactly that reliable and links that i would consider for my future practice (we take info from databases such as UpToDate or cochrane library which is used in evidence based medicine practice, they basically include systematic reviews of all significant researches).
and the test is meant to find the high risk PREcancerous lesions that have a high chance of developing into cancer to treat them before they do develop. that’s why the incidence for cervical cancer itself has reached a very low incidence compared with the times before the use of pap smear testing.
and for your other point, I will remember that. I was just talking about the people who don’t follow instructions, yet, they blame the doctor who gave them the instuctions that they didn’t follow!!!
And were links that I wouldn’t consider for my future practice**
^^ for the people who care about grammar.
I am glad to see your respect for the Cochrane Systematic Reviews, but are you aware that Archie Cochrane himself came out against the pap test being universally applied as a screening tool for cervical cancer on the grounds that he was doubtful that it would reduce deaths from cervical cancer? In the UK deaths from cervical cancer were declining naturally by 2% each year without any screening. In 1989 the UK government set up a pap smear programme where over 80% of UK women were practically forced to have a pap test every 3 years. After spending hundreds of millions of tax payers money, the programme is now boasting that over the last 30 years it has reduced deaths from cervical cancer by 30%. But hang on a minute, if my maths serves me correctly, that’s the same 2% per year that was happening from 1950-1988, isn’t it?
Many doctors have come out against screening as Michael Fitzpatrick here:
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/9669#.WFLsaL2nzqA
Have you tried searching on the actual Cochrane review site? because it appears like they think it’s so useful that they’re searching for the best ways to get people to do it:
http://www.cochrane.org/CD002834/GYNAECA_invitations-and-probably-educational-interventions-increase-the-uptake-of-pap-smears
And to be honest, I believe that the best medical practice includes reviewing the latest best evidence available (from systematic reviews and researches) alongside my own clinical experience (my own judgement as a physician) and whether the procedure or investigation is applicable or not, as well as the patient’s preference. After that, I might look into other doctor’s opinions if they were significant.
So, what other doctors think don’t really matter to me in the first place, because it’s only their opinion, if they proved it through a clinically significant research then it would be important to me because that’d produce important evidence then.
Hi Dr. Sunshine,
You might want to review this article: http://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.h6080 It was published Jan. 2016, very current.
Ok people, I know that I wrote many things on here. But after thinking more deeply about this issue, I think the main problem here is not the pap smear, instead, it’s actually the poor doctor-patient communication. This is a major problem that could cause many other problems, including patients not getting clear ideas about what’s going on with them or why they have to do things or what they should do,.. etc. Also it might cause gaps in recording the history of the patient which leads into missing important things that could lead the doctor to the diagnosis.
Anyway, I wasn’t trying to be against anyone, i was trying to help people and will forever try to do that when possible.
I’m not a bad person, nor a bad future doctor, because I’m very aware of the wrong things that the doctors do. I also happen to be a patient sometimes and would like to get the treatment that everyone should get and will definitely make sure that I give my future patients this treatment.
I wish you all the best 🙂
Dr. Sunshine,
The Pap test was designed way back in the 1930’s to detect the early stage of cancer, not so-called ‘precancer’. Dr. Pap firmly believed in those days that abnormal cell changes indicated cancer. It wasn’t until mass testing began many decades later that the medical fraternity realised, with such an astonishingly high rate of abnormal results being produced, that these cell changes could not possibly all indicate the presence of cancer. Thus the nonsense term ‘precancer’ was invented to hide the fact that no-one knows what an ‘abnormal’ pap really means.
Take away all the medical jargon and what do we really have here? You’re scraping a layer of skin away from one the most changeable parts of a woman’s body and examining the skin cells for signs of change. The skin can change for any number of reasons – infection, inflammation, chemical reaction, even hormonal fluctuations which are perfectly natural in young women, pregnancy, menopause etc. So… out of the thousands upon thousands of ‘abnormal’ test results, only a tiny minority of them indicate cancerous changes, but there is no way to distinguish between the majority of changes which are perfectly harmless and the tiny minority which do indicate genuine disease. Thus, thousands of perfectly healthy women are subjected to traumatic and physically damaging ‘procedures’ in order to help a very small number. The people who are harmed by screening (I include myself in their number) are swept aside as collateral damage.
It’s all about ‘preventing disease’ or ‘saving lives’, and no-one seems to give a damn about all the people who suffer in the process. That is simply unacceptable. We deserve better than this. And I firmly believe that the only reason that women’s healthcare remains stuck in the 1950’s is because of the revenue that these unreliable tests and procedures generate.
Fantastic post Kate. I’ve read frequently that if this test had been invented recently there is no way that it would be introduced as a widespread screening tool across entire populations. Such a test has never been sustainable in developing nations where cervical cancer is more prevalent. These countries are now making self-testing with screening swabs or urine the first test. No need to come forward for a pap unless you are positive. They are saving millions of $$$$ as well as many lives, but it’s unlikely to keep our wealthy western gynos in business, so western women remain stuck with Dr Pap’s dodgy test to keep the $$$ rolling in.
Evidence Based Medicine has been under the spotlight too! so perhaps you need to look a bit further! And there it goes again “interventions to increase uptake” – give the honest facts and leave us to decide for goodness sake! This attitude would never be used against Men….would it…..why?…….You’d get a smack in the face is why! As to patient doctor relationship and communication, well it would be a lot better if I was not hassled at non-related visit for screening I DO NOT WANT and have politely declined! I do not need counselling about that decision either, not by anyone! Please don’t forget that all cancer screening has plenty of it’s own risks too, for me less riskier to decline any cancer screening! Which…….shock…………….horror, is my decision to make! Gee perhaps I should look at arranging my own funeral soon, as being a woman quite obviously I am a walking disease and ticking time bomb about to explode!
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2016-12-08.56799.h&s=Cervical+screening#g56799.
Good grief! It looks as though there is going to be no HPV primary screening until 2019 in the UK. Will anyone still be turning up by then?
Overitall:
I hope you’re still there.There’s been alot of posts – mostly from Dr. Sunshine – since I was able to get back to the site – and have time to post to you. Please be mindful of her. I don’t know if she pounced on you as her post to you her post isn’t visible on the main page after all the other posts. She responded to me, and I’ll get to that – but first I want to post to you. The site though has a way of moving the posting times around because we’re on different continents and time zones, but whatever my time posts, I want you to know I answered you with priority and alot of concern.
My utmost, heartfelt sympathy goes out to you at this time. I’ve had people I love die of cancer. I lived it too. When the doctors tell you there’s nothing more you can do – for me, I went a little numb. Then, I decided that for whatever time was left, I would do my best to be there. That helped so much. They knew i loved them. We had no loose ends. When time got close, they were too weak for me to hug, so I gave a gentle kiss and squeezed their hands; touched their faces. When they passed, I had peace knowing I did what I could. I hope you find that same peace.
I hope, Overitall, that you don’t allow your fears to make you do irrational things. I’m glad that you’re not getting a mastectomy as breast cancer isn’t related to ovarian cancer or cervical cancer. Please, please, be careful what you do regarding the steps you take for your own health. Please don’t allow yourself to become a guinea pig to gynocologists who will see your fear. These gynocologists are really, really something. I’ve learned from my own research and from this site, that they are really are – sigh – not sincere in the slightest. To confirm that, all I needed do was compare the treatment that males get with urologists – it is grossly different and worlds more respectful to men than any 1,000 gynecologists put together. They don’t coerce anything with men. Gynos are all about the pap smear and pelvic, because these bring in about $80 a pop. Their interest is to find as many vulnerable women as possible – and convince them that they have to go between their legs with the most sincerest of faces. If they get 100 women, why that’s about $8,000. The conflict of interest is clear – and sincerity then, is false. They order tests that are not only not useful but harmful – physically, psychologically, emotionally, mentally. YOU, Overitall, will be subject to needless tests if you allow it. If you allow, male and female students will watch you get these tests that you now say that you don’t care about because of what your aunt is going through. Don’t allow the pelvics or paps. They will insist you need one every six months. If you choose a female doctor in a mixed practice, you can bet that she will mysteriously “take the day off” or “be busy with another patient” and a male will step in. By the way, they won’t tell you if he’s a student.
No, Overitall, any diagnosis must be made with an MRI, CT-scan, and blood draw.. Bimanuals and rectovaginals it appears come from sex tricks that have found their way into the gyn’s office – male gyns – no surprise – and will not diagnose or tell the wonderful doctor if you are at risk or even have any cancer of your uterus and ovaries. But if you allow a male to do these, then you’re allowing yourself to be prostituted for power and pleasure. If you let a female do it and you think she’s questionable – well – at least she can’t get an erection fantasizing about you after you leave. But, it can also be disturbing if she is obviously abusive. You say you don’t care, but according to the women on this site – you will. In your quietest time, you will. All I ask, Overitall, is that you carefully consider your path. I know you’re feeling like – just get it done. But no gyn – that actually is – oh my – respectable – and it’s I can’t believe I’m saying it – more likely to be a female will 1.- subject you to endless stirrups if you are not symptomatic, nor 2. -will they order endless invasive tests if you’re not symptomatic.They won’t give you a hysterectomy either. I just don’t want to see you make a new problem for yourself – allowing needless, invasive tests that, according to the women on this site – takes a world to overcome. Since you’re really concerned- get tests – but only the non-invasive ones that actually diagnose – insist on it. MRI, CT-Scan, blood drawn. And for God’s sake – No transvaginals!
Please keep us posted. You and your aunt and your family are in my prayers.
Be blessed.
A little clarification, Dr. Sunshine:
Lest I be misunderstood and appear in support of the pelvic to you – I must correct myself: you will know just between your reading and hearing their symptoms that a pelvic is NOT really necessary. This is because – YOU KNOW – that diagnoses aren’t made with those. It’s the MRI, CT-Scan, Blood draw and even x-ray. So, if your patient is an 18year old – who may or may not be a virgin; or a woman comes in crying and says she hates pelvics and was traumatized by them; or if your patient comes in sounding like us – you have to decide how you will respond – profits (pelvic – but no colposcopy? – you said you were taught to be cost effective to your patients…..) or will it really be about your patients’ best interests and you offer alternatives to these invasive tests – MRI, CT-Scan, blood draw, X-ray. NO TRANSVAGINALS. If you insist on giving them, then – practice what you preach – get it done, yourself and see how you like it. Don’t be a sadist – get it done – not by a male, rather at least by a female gyno. Then tell yourself – yes this is best for my patients. I doubt that you will be able to without denial. Somewhere between the practices and hospitals having to pay for that machine and denial that they are sex toys with condoms and gel, they are still being used. What an absolute sham and disgrace.
Please listen to us, Dr. Sunshine – you may safe yourself a world of trouble, as well.
Be blessed.
okay all you smart ladies- I need help!
I finally had the guts (and knowledge) to try to schedule an appointment with my GP for birth control. I also made clear to the receptionist that I will not be volunteering for a pap. Cancer screening is not a prerequisite for birth control, and the two are linked. She insisted that no doctor would prescribe the pill without a pap. I asked her to refer me to someone more accommodating or to just ask the doctor for me. I told her I pay a lot for my mandated insurance every month and I should be able to prevent an unwanted pregnancy without under going cancer screening. I also mentioned I was hpv- last time I had a pap 5 years ago when I was pregnant with my first child. I told her I don’t want to pay a co pay or waste time at an appointment that will not meet my needs as a patient.
she called back the next day and said the doctor thinks I really should have a pap because im overdue. she said I can schedule an appointment for one and the we can discuss birth control options from there. I explained that I just had my second child six months ago and was diagnosed ITP. I have very low blood platelets because my body is constantly attacking and destroying them faster then I can replace them. my pregnancy was extremely over managed and involved a lot of fear mongering and coercion to initiate steroids. I told her having another child right now is not in my best interest, and potentially dangerous. she apologized and said that the doctor is just following “the standard of care” regarding the pill. she would relay the other information and see what she could find out.
They know im right. but that last little bit she threw in there about standard of care was the real kicker. its what most doctors would require, so it is in her right to follow suit. like she thinks its medical negligence (malpractice) not to do one. im sure ill get a call back tomorrow and if she still insists, how do I refute her statement about standard of care. I really don’t want to go doctor shopping, and all the doctors at the hospital I use are connected and in contact anyways. I’ve meet the doctor once in the past and she seems descent and not too confrontational, but I have to jump through hoops and play the telephone game with these damn receptionists and nurses.
to anyone out there, help me think of something to get the pill and not the pap. look up standard of care as well. this is so stupid. the perfect little phrase to support and implement all their little lies.
Planned Parenthood. Last time I went to get birth control I was “overdue” for a pap, but they didn’t seem to care and didn’t push the issue. I was prepared for a fight, but it never even came to that. They gave me a 3-month supply and sent me on my way.
In the past, they always pushed the pap-test-before-birth-control issue, but perhaps the new recommendations changed all that. Regardless, I got what I needed without having to take off my clothes. You have good reasons for avoiding a pap (even though you shouldn’t even need a reason…no means no!) so I don’t know how they can still push the issue. It’s ELECTIVE, for god’s sake, and the state of your cervix would never give them any valid reason to deny birth control. (In fact, they won’t even wait for the results of the pap to give you birth control, which just enforces the idea that results don’t even matter.)
typo! “..and the two are not* linked..”
Dear people,
I have clearly stated what I meant until now on this site. We, medical students, are being taught about all of these procedures and how important they are and why. and it all makes sense to me and every other medical students because we learn detailed information about them all.
yes, the genital tract is a very sensitive area. yes, some male or even female doctors can do wrong things. But that deosn’t mean that these tests are not important, or that they’re not useful when needed to be done.
We, as doctors and future doctors, can’t take decisions based on what we FEEL is right or wrong! or based on the patients orders and self diagnosis! (as if they’re ordering pizza or something. “Oh please I think I have ……., can you do me an MRI with a bit of blood sampling topped with a lumbur puncture? and no, I don’t want your help because I know what my tummy wants”).
A doctor is supposed to look at the available, reliable, official, researched information that’s been reviewed by different doctors, scientists, and health specialists, then correlate it with the presenting case, then the doctors can look at their own experience and explain to the patient the possibilities if there were any. the patients also has the right to do non of the options if they wanted to!
we are going to be asked to do no harm, how can we do that if we didn’t use the info and the skills that we learned when we should because the patient doesn’t want to talk about it? because patients know their own bodies more than we do? I’m learning about my own body, and guess what? I still don’t even know half the things that go on or could go on within it!
I don’t think anyone likes injections, taking pills, surgical procedures, colonoscopies (that both males and females do!), chemotherapy, or any other medical procedure. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.
we as females, are built to have this very specialized genital tract! it goes through a lot. it goes through a hormonal cycle (which includes many effects on the organs from the ongoing proliferating endometrium to menstruation, to ovulation,.. etc), it might or might not go through 9 months of pregnancy, maybe once or even more! We have this huge amount of stressors and changes going on in our genital tract that males go though non of them!
Stop comparing your bodies, organs, tests, examinations, treatment with males! we are different!
we have estrogen dominating while they have testosterone, they do not go through this proliferative and destructive (in case of menses) cycle every month! they do not go through pregnancy and will never know about how huge this thing is! they do not have a vagina! They don’t have ovaries! They don’t have a uterus or a cervix! they have different things and each of the genders need their own and special treatment!
My message to you is to not treat your doctors as your enemies, because they’re there to help you! you may not like us, because we do painful, sensitive, invasive things. we ask you to follow strict health programs, we ask you to do hard things, but it’s because WE ARE TRYING TO HELP YOU! yes there are bad doctors, but they are not all the same!
Finally, I’ve been accused on this site to be close minded by planning to follow the safe recommended, research prooved procedures while I’ve still said before in another long comment that yes, you do have a point, it is invasive and uncomfortable. Also, I’ve said that I believe that we shouldn’t settle for this (this anyway goes through research every once in a while and is updated from time to time as with the USPSTF), and that I will try to be the change as much as I can. That I’ll try to spread more awareness about how tough and sensitive it is so doctors can do their best to make it more comfortable. I told you that I would also try to get involved in research about better procedures or to check if it was really not important anymore as you’re claiming, I told you all that I’ll try to do my best, but you never seemed to care about it! you just ended up saying that I’m closed minded!
I was also accused of having “God complex” just because I stated my opinion that I thought was very important to be shared! you don’t want to listen to other people’s opinions and you start judging the people these opinions belong to, but still, you expect yours to be heard and respected?
I would end this by saying that, after having OB/GYN at the very end of my possible specializing options, it’s now no longer on the list at all, because I really don’t want to deal with such things. having to repeat myself and defend myself, not being listened to, not respected. I also don’t want to be considered as an enemy to people that I’ll be working day and night just to help them and make sure that they’re healthy. It would’ve been nice to go into OB/GYN and start a change, but I don’t want to go into that if my efforts aren’t going to be appreciated!
but as promised, I’ll still try to draw more attention to the case and maybe get involved in research in the following 2 years before I either go into cardiology or neurology, where there’re still going to be unappreciative, disrespectful people that think doctors are their enemies, but they won’t be as much!
Please use your talents and intellect for a greater cause such as neurology or cardiology where you are treating very sick patients. The worst you will do is revoke some patients’ driver licence so they lost their independence and will to live.
You will find the norm in most medical fields is following a logarithm for diagnosing and ordering tests.
You will find your way.
First do no harm – so in the UK 200,000 women are carted off to the colposcopy unit, do you really think this is fair? That is a big figure! Have you really any idea what it feels like emotionally for a woman to have to go through this….the constant fear of something so rare! This kind of behaviour has worked against me as now I trust no-one especially within the Medical field, I question absolutely everything in relation! I have been put off even visiting my GP for problems more important than a dam smear test! How has this helped! Change needs to start somewhere and yes it would be nice if you/others made those changes instead of many turning the other cheek. No-one should be convinced, coerced, tricked or pushed into Optional/Elective screening, whether you think it is a good idea or not! I wish you good luck in your chosen field.
This just came up for me today. I made an appointment two months ago for a routine wellness checkup, while on the phone the receptionist asked if I would like a pap smear I declined. That was it appointment made.
So I go into the doctor today and the first thing the nurse asks is “When was your last pap smear?” I informed her that I opted not to get one as I had made clear when I made the appointment. She went onto ask if I was sexually active which I informed her clearly no. She didn’t let up until she came to the conclusion that I am a virgin.
This exchange made me highly uncomfortable. She takes my blood pressure and leaves.
Next tge doctor comes in and its the same question “when was your last pap smear? You should probably have one?”
I once again told her I wasn’t getting one which she responds with “well we’ll do it next time.”
At this point I just grit my teeth and do not respond. The rest of the appointment was awkward as I wanted to get out of there ASAP.
With respect to you Samantha, I do not understand the need for a “routine wellness checkup”. I assume that I am “well” until I feel otherwise. Too many people seem to spend too much time worrying about what may happen. I’m of the opinion that if I did see my GP for a “wellness” check, I’m sure she/he will find something to biopsy or test and of course go through the inevitable check list that will pop up on my record – smear test, weight, alcohol, smoking etc etc. Personally, I rather not know.
It’s high time that we stopped screening healthy people, over diagnosing, over treating and turning people with no symptoms into patients, performing needless tests and procedures, handing out drugs like sweeties….which also causes many side effects which then need more drugs/ops to fix and so on. Thousands get treated for no benefit, yes agreed some may be helped but so many more are not. What a complete waste of money and resources which could be put back into the system to treat people with REAL health problems, employ more frontline staff etc. Screening is not perfect, Screening will never be perfect, there will always be more false positives than there will be false negatives, that is a fact! Cervical cancer risk 0.65% with an unnecessary treatment risk of around 60-70% – no guess as which I prefer! 0.65% risk is good for me! I’d just like to stress that word again “RISK” – this does not mean it will happen, risk is simply just a risk! We risk crossing the road, driving, flying, tripping, falling, eating junk food, drinking, smoking – our lives are full of risk every minute of every day! Can we not just start treating the sick that need help instead of putting them to the back of the queue. Okay thanks, my little rant is over.
So true mint and chas uk. I’m an intelligent women and I know if I feel ill or in pain. I prefer not to screen even for cholesterol. .as I’d never take statins anyway. And I agree weless checks is the ideal opportunity to harass about smears and mammograms. I refuse both
Cholesterol……..LOL. Blood test showed mine was 5.6 and I was sent a letter asking me to go on a low fat diet “this instance”, yes that was the wording! I was at that time 47 kilos for goodness sake, that is 7st 6. My GP got an earful that one and I stated I would not have another cholesterol fasting test which I did not ask for. Another case of box ticking which could have lead to me being offered Statins…………….no thank you very much! I thought about all this further and realised it was a “health check”, I wasn’t informed of it and I did not ask for it, fuming I was. No Cancer screening of any kind either, no smear tests no mammograms no colonoscopies!
Some call the wellness checkups “fat shaming and cancer blaming”. I refuse them too.
Statins are pushed as well as other drugs after these visits by the “pharma whores”. There is great controversy about some cancer screening tests as well as the issue of blood cholesterol testing and treatment or dietary changes for high cholesterol. Cholesterol is the building block for many hormones so for example if a person has high stress due to their profession then they are going to be producing more cortisol which is made from cholesterol. If the diet does not have enough cholesterol then the body will make it so the other hormones can be made. So their blood test will show high cholesterol if they have high stress.
I also believe that type II diabetes is over diagnosed and overtreated as well as high blood pressure.
Another beef I have is antibiotic overuse. I was pushed antibiotics recently for bronchitis. I actually had a bad case of flu (fever, cough) but I know that flu is caused by a virus so why the antibiotics? I did some research and the AMA recommends that antibiotics not be given for bronchitis because 90% of the cases are caused by a virus. So are all these doctors pushing antibiotics missing their lunch lectures or emails? All I really needed was a cough syrup that would thin out the mucus.
You’re absolutely right about everything except for hypertension and diabetes mellitus 2 being overrated.
It’s a major wrong thing to give antibiotics in cases that are most likely caused by viruses. This has more side effects than good (sometimes it doesn’t even have a positive side to it). I have no idea why doctors keep on prescribing antibiotics this easily for simple flu cases.. This could lead into more resistant bacteria as well as loss of important bacteria in our bodies “normal flora” (and also secondary infections).
Other than that, I’m not that much into statins to be honest because I have some doubts about it being helpful in case of heart diseases. And you can say that I’m not convinced of the fact that cholesterol is the real enemy (in the case of atherosclerosis). But still, doctors don’t really prescribe statins unless the patient reaches a specific level. Remember, that doesn’t mean that i support the use of statins! I’m planning a research about the whole statins-cholesterol-heart disease relationship thing because I think it’s full of gaps that once filled, everything will completely change.
Didn’t think that I’ll find myself again on this site again (despite believing that I’m hated on this blog, I found notifications in my email and thought of checking out what’s going on). I probably should start my own blog about heart diseases, because I think I really enjoy discussions.
Dr Sunshine, thank you for joining the blog again, it is always a sign of failure if something cannot be discussed, and I, for one appreciate your honesty even if we differ. I hope that many more medics have taken the opportunity to read the posts on this website and know how many women feel about women’s health care. It is a pity they are too shy to contribute to the discussion. Do you discuss this website with your colleagues and do medics know about it? I hope you will continue to post and won’t be put off by some of the comments.
Yes but the Cholesterol “Specific Level”? Isn’t this determined by a Computer after ticking all the boxes? What about the “threshold” that’s used 20% / 10% – if you drop it from 20% to 10% immediately they have just created millions of patients overnight? Big Money for Pharma! My thoughts straight away come back to “Over diagnosis & Overtreatment” – this frightens me more than the condition one is supposed be at risk of, and yes I go back to that word “Risk” not a definite outcome. This is why every year there is The Preventing Overdiagnosis Conference – 2017 is Hosted by the Quebec Medical Association, shame it is only for Health Professionals/Students
Good to see you came back.
Omg just happened to me. I ended up breaking out in hives! Had miss out 2 more days of work. So she prescibe me Claritin for hives and over counter stuff and over counter cough syrups. I had fever thats why prescribe me antibiotics. She told me i have to allow virus run its course since im not in taking antibiotic well..
I’ve just seen our friend Robert Music of Jo’s Trust on the local evening news. Apparently screening numbers are down….. they must be worried. Yet again they site the primary reasons for this as women being “too embarrassed” or “worried about pain” and the same old “get yourself tested ladies” mantra.
It seems to be completely beyond their comprehension that maybe, just maybe women are actually researching the pros and cons of this screening and deciding that it is not for them.
Bloody hell, it’s cervical cancer awareness week again. How many times a year do they have them? We have one group of women bemoaning the fact that over a quarter of women don’t attend, and another promoting the big petition to lower the screening age, yet again. It has already passed the number required to be debated in Parliament so perhaps they will finally make it clear to these misguided fools that the test doesn’t work.
As the screening rate continues to fall, we’ll see more and more money being spent on “awareness” – more scary stories, more pressure, it feels like the program desperately fighting for survival, vested interests fighting to protect market share and profits etc. We’ll see a real push here with the new program to keep those already in the program and to round up the non-screeners, they can self-test now after all, so, what’s the problem? The lack of respect for our right to simply say NO never ceases to amaze me. I don’t care what’s being “offered”…I don’t want it and never will, got it! I have nothing but contempt for the cervical and breast screening programs and will have nothing to do with them – both programs have treated women appallingly, violating legal rights, operating with no ethical principles (misleading women is almost a sport for these programs) and worrying and harming so many women.
The reason that cervical screening is such a hot topic is because it deflects attention for other “women’s issues” in the political forum such as equality in pay, abortions, maternity leave pay, daycare, tax issues.
That’s another group of women bemoaning the fact that over a quarter of women don’t allow a complete stranger access to their vagina, like they do or feel they have to! Twats! Just because they have been duped into it what gives them any right to bemoan anything that other women should do, specially that private sensitive area! Like you have all said before, there are no other healthcare areas that they feel it necessary to take the same approach. Again I’ll call them Twats!
” just maybe women are actually researching the pros and cons of this screening and deciding that it is not for them”
They’ll deny that possibility for as long as possible because they know if enough women reject the propaganda and actually get to the evidence, they’re doomed…they also know they can put road blocks around self-testing alternatives, but that will get harder and harder over time. When you’ve operated with no consent and no informed consent from the very beginning, and got away with it…it must be hard to accept that women do indeed have legal rights and they do indeed have ethical obligations to present both sides of the screening argument and accept our right to choose. A very bitter pill to swallow…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-38685267
And they use here a woman who had “abnormal bleeding & pain”, actual symptoms that do warrant investigations of the diagnostic kind not screening. Then use her to promote “keen to encourage women to attend smear tests – despite worries it “might hurt” or fears over the outcome.” Same old crap!
http://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.j228 Margaret McCartney: Swapping systematic reviews for celebrity endorsements
A good read, she references PSA in this, however he same applies to cervical cancer screening and all other screening! No online response from the Professionals as yet.
They use celebrity endorsement here for mammograms, I find it culpable, when they know it’s a very fine line, over-diagnosis and over-treatment may mean the risks of screening outweigh any benefit. It should be an informed decision based on something like the NCI summary, not something flippantly recommended by celebrities.
The program has zero chance of reaching the target, even screening older women won’t get them over the line.
I am a virgin who has NEVER put anything in my vagina before. I’ve only had two normal pelvic exams and both of them made me cry, like, sobbing, guttural crying, until they had to stop early because I was crying so badly. They were going to do the pap smear on the second one, when I was 17, but the doctor saw I was freaking out and decided not to.
I am 20 now, and haven’t had a pelvic exam since. But I recently got an ultrasound at the ER and discovered I had a ovarian cyst that was two inches and causing me a lot of pain. They said it was okay, but gave me a ob/gyn to see. I made the appointment, and it’s tomorrow, July 5th…
I am really nervous because I know I need to speak up and refuse a pap smear. I do not need one. I am a virgin, I’m only 20, I don’t plan on having sex anytime soon. Doctors fingers have been the only thing in my vagina… I was told they will also push a trans vag ultrasound on me which I absolutely can not handle.
So I have to refuse both of those things, and tell them what I want is a normal ultrasound, and a normal pelvic exam. And they damn well better stop the exam if I say “stop, I can’t do this.” even if they’re almost done with it.
No if, ands or buts.
I will get a pap smear when I am ready.
Just say im aware but not today. Leave it be! Im always refuse a pap.
Just called back my doctor for blood work updates because I have low iron and she like oh she scheduling your pap on this day too. Fully telling her I don’t want to do it she responded talk to the doctor about it. Come that day I will tell her I have my period because I don’t want to doesn’t mean anything to them
Usually the response to having your period is to try and get you come back two weeks later. I have been tricked by having the receptionist call and say the doctor wants to see you and I just assume it is some test results. Then they push the pap because “while you are here”. Mostly they just want to make money.
So why are you going to the doctor for low iron? You can just get a vitamin supplement or eat more red meat. Unless you have some other serious symptoms, low iron is common for some women. Just do some online research.
Spend the day at a blood drive and you see women -and some men!- get deferred for low iron all the time! The Red Cross then give you a paper on foods that help for low iron and also encourage iron supplements, which work very well. They never mention a doctor.
Just say NO Maria, it is not their decision and you do not need to give an excuse or a fake excuse regarding any “optional/elective screening test”, they are not going to hold you down and force it upon you. Be brave my dear.
Put it this way, if a stranger in the street male or female wanted access to your most intimate area, for whatever reason……You WOULD NOT agree to it! Please stand firm stand tall and make yourself heard, then walk away. It is not for anyone to decide this for you but you!
Foods rich in iron include (+many more if you check online):
•Red meat, pork and poultry.
•Seafood.
•Beans.
•Dark green leafy vegetables, such as spinach.
•Dried fruit, such as raisins and apricots.
•Iron-fortified cereals, breads and pastas.
•Peas
You can also get Iron tablets in most chemists or supermarkets
Good luck
Stand firm Maria tell them No straight out! This happened to me too I refused to have the tubes up my bum and down my throat when I got diagnosed anaemic doc said ok then spent 10 minutes harassing me to get a smear..I stood firm..
I just wanted to say thank you for writing these articles. I just turned 21 and received a couple letters from my doc saying I needed to have a pap done asap (which I’m avoiding like the plague, I already don’t feel comfortable with doctors and haven’t seen one in years). My mom had gotten rather mouthy and angry with me for being against the test, even though I’m a virgin, don’t smoke, and am an overall healthy person. I explain why in a calm manner, but she wouldn’t listen and even said my reasoning was dumb. It was weird, it was like the moment I said no she turned into a completely different person. After doing some reading, I think some of her aggression might be to ovoid the possibly that the tests she’s been doing for years were actually not saving her life but possibly endangering it. But, through reading how other women have stood their ground has given me confidence to keep fighting and not give in. I will not be a sheeple, I will think for myself and stick up for the other women who are standing up for themselves as well!
Hi Patty, it is nice to hear that this forum is helping you. You are an adult and thus have the sole right to make all decisions about what is done to your body. Not your mother, not your doctor. The medical system and the female screening programs have been pressuring and brainwashing women for decades. Your mom is one of the millions of victims. She lived all her life in fear instilled by the system, and now cannot accept any true facts or rational arguments that prove otherwise. She may never be able to change, never feel safe, free and independent. But you can. And you are on the right path. Welcome.
Probably your mother does not know the truth. Back when she was younger women were scared into thinking that cervical cancer was just random. I am in my 50’s and even had women my age tell me that pap tests “prevent” cancer. They do not. Another reason is that there is this type of “punishment” idea that being a sexual being is bad and this is what women deserve. I have heard about some women sabotaging other women’s tampons so they would have to go to the doctor for infections. It’s disgusting.
Every relationship should have boundaries and you can tell your mother that some parts of your life are none of her business. It also works with any other person. You determine the boundaries and how others should treat you.
I get the same problem to . Last appointment for allergic break out and they had the nerve to ask. She like are u aware youndue pap test. So, I perk up and say yeah Im aware. She kept going asking other questions. So proud of my self. Yes one those woman who’s against being forced to have one.
I’m done with general GP’s.
I know they mean well, but I don’t want doctors prodding around up inside my vagina with cold hard metal instruments.
I was taken advantage of by a male doctor this way at 18 or 19 years of age, as well as given a breast exam that I did not need nor consent to.
The risk of cervical cancer is quite small, and in my opinion doesn’t warrant the constant badgering women receive to undertake regular screenings when many of us simply don’t want them. I do not owe anyone any explanation as to why we wish to decline this particular medical procedure.
I don’t care if its a woman doctor, a male doctor, or anyone. My body is my own. If that cannot be respected then I’ll take my business elsewhere.
I agree, I went in with my husband for a simple check up and we were separated so I had my 14 month old daughter with me. The nurse walked in, checked my weight, then asked me if I wanted to undress to prep for a pap smear. I just stared at her like, are you serious? I asked her, ” am I to hold my child as you fiddle around down there?” She laughed nervously and told me to reschedule. I have not.
Hi ladies,
I’m new to this forum, I’ve always had my smear test done as I always felt it’s the thing to do as all the info say they save your life, anyway I’m due to get a letter soon to invite me for my next smear, now when I say I hate smears I hate them with a passion and really don’t want to go through the mental torment I go through every 3 years anymore, a little background on myself, I’ve been with my husband for 30 years im nearly 47, don’t smoke don’t take the pill, always had clear smears since I was 20, im actually getting myself in a state already and it’s not due until may, recently I had a very slight streak of blood after sex, I’ve been told in the past I do have a cervical erosion, I also have a prolapse uterus and a submucosal fibroid which all could have caused the slight bleed, I just need some advice on the fact that I don’t want smears anymore and is this a stupid thing to do.
Many thanks sherry x
Hello Sherry and welcome.
I can relate! I worked myself up into “a state” considering that I had to return to the doctor for treatment of diabetes – which last year was totally derailed into a talk about paps. This year, they are “notified” that I don’t want another pap, refuse to allow the consult to be hijacked into a “pap talk”, via phone and a letter I wrote to the doctor. We’ll see what happens.
At 47, you are likely (peri)menopausal. A slight streak of blood after sex, especially vigorous sex, is likely nothing to be concerned about. I’ll let others here discuss home remedies for your known gyn problems.
As you’re in a country where you are “invited” for smears, you can opt-out of such invites.
In these days of #MeToo, all of the talk about consent – and that consent doesn’t mean badgering until a “no” becomes a “yes”, and “my body, my choice”, along with the background and theories about consent and ownership of someone’s body going back to John Locke in the 17th century, you’d think that this would no longer be a problem. What do we call penetration of someone’s vagina with any body part or object without their consent?
Hi Sherry.
Screening – and particularly cancer screening – has always been presented to the public as hugely beneficial. We’ve been told screening is easy, simple, and ‘saves lives’. Screening is what clever, responsible people do if they care about their health, and anyone who doesn’t want to test, for whatever reason, is told they’re ignorant and reckless.
But screening is complicated, expensive, and can do far more harm than good.
In regards to cervical screening in particular, the ‘smear’ has never been through any thorough trials to prove that it’s effective at preventing cancer or ‘saving lives’. There’s no doubt it does, but we just don’t know how many truly benefit. The claim that the programme ‘saves 5000 lives every year’ is, frankly, complete bullshit.
Cervical cancer is not, as we’ve been led to believe, a common disease and it was already in decline here in the UK before the ‘smear’ ever came to our shores.
The test is also highly inaccurate. An unreliable test for an uncommon disease means that if the programme is going to achieve a reduction in death rates they need to test huge numbers.
So, the NHS sets targets for their cancer screening programmes. For breast and cervical, it was set at 80%.
They knew full damned well that many women were repulsed by the idea of a pelvic exam and wouldn’t want to get tested, so back in 1990 they introduced payment schemes so that GP’s would bully reluctant women into testing. So the reason the practice is so keen to get us up on the couch is not because we’re all in terrible danger from this disease, far from it – it’s because they are rewarded for doing so.
The lifetime risk of CC is around 1%. ‘Abnormal’ cell changes are very common, we all get them from time to time, and only very rarely do they indicate a genuine risk. Even if every woman tested religiously, cases of cancer and deaths would still occur because a) the programme doesn’t test women through their entire life and b) the test is far from perfect.
So, if you’re among that 1% who is destined to develop the disease, there’s no guarantee regular testing will prevent it or save your life. In fact there are women who’ve died from the disease BECAUSE of screening – Jade Goody was one of them.
And if you’re among the 99% who cannot benefit from testing… at best, you’re wasting your time, and precious NHS resources are being used on a wild goose chase.
At worst… you could end up having unnecessary surgery and complications which can affect your quality of life. The risk of having surgery is far greater than the risk of developing cancer.
Bottom line is, screening can cause harm, it’s entirely up to the patient to decide whether they wish to accept or decline that invitation or not. It’s not an obligation or moral duty, it’s a medical procedure with risks and benefits, just like any other, and we have the absolute right to decline, for any reason.
Nor do you have to explain yourself to anyone who wants to know your reasons why you don’t want to get tested.
There are many others out there who dread the test, who find the procedure traumatic yet force themselves to go because it’s seen as the ‘right’ thing to do or they’re terrified of the disease – a fear that has been created by the programme itself.
Don’t believe the stories spread by the authorities and pink charities. There are many reasons women don’t go for testing, this notion that 28% of eligible women aren’t having regular tests because they’re just ’embarrassed’ is total crap.
Besides which, HPV self-testing kits have been around for some time now – they’re freely available in other countries. The NHS is struggling to keep up with progress and most likely don’t have the resources to implement home-testing, but it infuriates me that they continue to spend millions on incentives and patronising awareness campaigns to feed the programme when that money could be spent on improving the service. It’s almost as if they don’t want to lose access to our vaginas.
Hi Sherry, if you do not want to screen then please do not, it is your body and your decision. I have finally opted out of cervical screening by signing a disclaimer, we shouldn’t have to but it has given me peace of mind for now any. You can find the correct form here if you are in the UK
UK NHS Opting out form can be found via here: https://www.csas.nhs.uk/support/
Using this form here:
https://www.csas.nhs.uk/support/pc-cs-007-002-cease-informed-consent-v3
Complete and send to your GP preferably by email, if by post then ensure you take a copy or two.
Well said, Elizabeth…and welcome to the forum
Sherry Beth is correct. If you are in the UK you can inform your doc in writing you will jo longer be having any smears and you wish to opt out. You van also contact the health authorities itself..address on the “invite”. It’s then actually illegal to continue to harass an opted out woman.
Should your doc continue to push as mine did I found its best just to refuse to engage. I kept repeating I opted out and signed a disclaimer. Eventually he got the message.
You’re extremely unlikely at your age with your history to have HPV which is responsible for 99% of cervical cancer but if you wanted to check Superdrug UK online offer a kit for £50. You could then inform your doc and it might put your mind at risk. I’m sorry I dont know about your gyn issues but as Beth says it’s unlikely to be cancer. Your lifetime risk is 0.65% with 900 women a year out of 30 million women in the UK…
Thank you ladies for all your comments, I did pop along to the drs for a chat mainly about my health anxiety, but I did bring up the spotting issue and the dr replied it was most likely one of the different issues I have, she did offer to do a pelvic exam but i said no due to be on my period , i told her i would reschedule, but I wont.
Anyway as I said to you ladies before I do not want a pap test but drs medical staff and the media make you feel irresponsible and that if you don’t get a pap you will die of cc, I would rather do a hpv test but then I’m scared if its positive I will then need test at the drs etc. As you can see I suffer severe health anxiety, do any of you ladies have any good info regarding hpv, cc risk etc as to put my mind at rest, I will also not have a mammogram when I reach 50, my mum and auntie haven’t had a pap for 28 years and have never had a mammogram and they are still very much alive and kicking.
Anyway sorry for the rant
Sherry xx
Sherry: https://knowyourchances.cancer.gov is a good link to give you the official numbers in the US. Similar sites exist for other countries. This is a low-risk issue. However, with the number of false positives, having a smear every 3 years, as is the standard, will pose a 77% risk of “having something done to (your) cervix” by the time you reach 65! Those are far from safe – a significant number coming out of a coloscopy/biopsy will come out of it with PTSD if they did not already have it. Women who already have PTSD from other issues will almost surely be retraumatized. There are risks of infection inherent in any sort of medical procedure too – and much of this equipment is not sterilized before each use!
Cervical cancer is the 23rd leading cause of cancer deaths among US women – killing about 4,100 of us per year (out of ~330,000,000 people, about 165,000,000 are women). As a contrast, renal cancer, another rare cancer, kills about 14,000 people in the US each year. Yet, if I went to a doctor hysterical about being screened for renal cancer, with no symptoms, no family history of it, the doctor would (or should!) talk me out of it, and try to figure out why I’m so insistent upon the renal cancer issue.
If you are anxious about your health, there are much more likely health problems you could have which could kill you. Cardiac problems are what kills the greatest number of women – yet women are not treated as seriously or aggressively for cardiac risks or abnormalities. Indeed, women are discharged without treatment even if they go to the emergency room for a heart attack – sometimes mid-heart attack!
Even if it’s cervical cancer you’re worried about, a pap test is unreliable for giving false negatives too. If you have a pap, and in a month or two show symptoms of cervical cancer, you will likely be tested for other sorts of things – and CC considered as an afterthought. Adenocarcinoma (of the cervix) is a rarer form of CC, and one that a pap smear (or HPV test) does not pick up.
Also, your consult time is limited. Would you rather spend it with a possibility of a rare cancer, or would you rather have your health concerns addressed?
Nobody can “make you” feel anything! The best thing is to be well-informed, as to be able to give an informed refusal (the reciprocal of informed consent). Your auntie has not had her girlie-parts explode although she’s gone decades without a pap smear.
Thank you for your replies, that website was really useful , apparently I have as much chance of being murdered as having cc, and I don’t spend every waking hour worrying about that, I cant believe the amount of scare mongering by the medical industry and the media there is xx
It is indeed, similar to your chances of being murdered. But, look at some other things: In the US last year, 51 people were killed in the US by lightening strikes. This is a little over 1/100th of the risk of CC. While I try to avoid being the highest thing in my vicinity, avoiding open fields during a thunderstorm, I don’t obsess about it.
The high rates of CC are mainly found in the undeveloped, impoverished nations of Africa. Many of them are undergoing civil war and other partisan violence – using rape as a weapon of war, as well as pre-menarche marriage of girls, FGM in some places, unsafe water, malnutrition, high rates of AIDS and other communicable diseases. Medical care is mainly unavailable. I want to know who is doing all of the autopsies determining that these women died of cervical cancer! Is doing autopsies deemed “more important” than treating wounds, treating disease, lowering the risk of disease through vaccination and other measures (such as mosquitoes). More likely it is that, “She had some sort of ‘women’s problem’, and we think that killed her.” “Oh, do you think she died of cervical cancer?” “Yeah, maybe, I guess so.”
The realities of life are far different there. Certainly, you won’t reduce risk by doing all this screening of women in mostly-peaceful industrialized countries!
Reading this four years after you wrote it and so glad you did! I went for a simple skin check today and was asked by two different staff about pap smears. I feel so violated just being asked, and have been upset ever since. At best, it’s psychologically damaging and ineffective as a screening test, and at worst, the unnecessary biopsies afterwards can damage the cervix and cause problems in pregnancy. I feel so angry and lose faith in the doctors who recommend it. When will they get rid of this appalling practice, and stop trying to coerce every female who walks in the door? I don’t think I will ever find, “Hi, what’s your name? When was your last pap smear?” an appropriate conversation, and especially not with multiple strangers every time I walk into a medical centre.
Tell them office time is too short to discuss other health care issue than what you scheduled the appoint for and refuse to answer the question. Tell them to place on your chart that you want this issue permanently resolved and they are to never bring the subject again. Patients have the right to refuse any pill, treatment, exam, without receiving harassment or coercion and you do not need to provide them with a reason. Tell them your choice is no and the issue is closed and to get back to the reason you came to the doctors.
I agree with how upsetting just the suggestion is. Just thinking about it makes me feel dirty and violated and want to cry. I’m only 20, and was told just the other day by some trainee at the walk-in that I need to schedule one with someone upstairs. I have enough problems, I don’t intend to worry about something that may or may not be an issue, or could cause delivery problems (I may have problems even getting pregnant in the first place due to my PCOS).
Thank you so much for sharing!
Sherry at your age with your history you would seem to be confidently monogamous and extremely unlikely to have HPV. Remember HPV is so common around 80% of us get it at some point but even if you have high risk HPV you’re very unlikely to go on to develop cancer. A self test might show HPV even then cancer typically takes years to develop so you might choose to wait a whole and re test to see of its cleared. Hard for you maybe with health anxiety
As ro doctors tutting and making us feel bad for not screening well I just kept repeating I opted out and signed a disclaimer repeatedly til he gave up but you could maybe print out some stuff say from Cancer Research about numbers and stats or pointing out stroke and heart disease kill more women or even say NO! THIS ISN’T UP FOR DISCUSSION!
My non screening status came up for me with a different doctor a woman when I asked her about non hormonal ideas for menopausal sweats and flushes. She asked why I didn’t want HRT and I said I’m not prepared to start screening ( like you I refuse mammograms too) she said did I find it painful. I explained giving stats quoted here and added for mammograms the leaflet sent with the invite says for every 1 person helped 3 others get treatment for something which would never have harmed and so NO WAY. She couldn’t argue with anything I said..
Let us know how you go…thinking of you. It’s so wrong these programmes are used to scare us so much x
About a year ago, when I was 22, I went into my first appointment with an adult doctor. It was so stupid since I was about to graduate college and move out of the state in a year and could have just held out with my pediatrician until then, since I would have to get a new doctor once I left anyway. My dad kept badgering me to go to an adult doctor and would get mad about my lack of trust for doctors, so he picked one out for me, and I decided to go. I’m not typically super trustworthy of doctors, but I decided this time I would try this trusting thing. The doctor asked me if I was a virgin and we talked a bit about it, and then she said that women over 21 are recommended to get pap smears, even if they’re virgins, but as a virgin I didn’t necessarily need one. I had only heard about pap smears and I guess I was stupid enough to assume they were external exams, which I was fine with, so I said if they were recommended I’d do it. Doc starts getting really weird, goes out, brings some nurse in or something. I kept thinking “maybe she’s going to go inside me but she wouldn’t do that without telling me, knowing that I’m a virgin, right?” I decide to ask her to tell me exactly what she’s going to do and she’s like “I’m just going to check down there and take a swab.” Stupid trusting thing. The speculum she used what like 4 inches wide (probably less than that, but it looked huge and definitely wasn’t the tampon-sized ones that are typically used for virgins) and the pain was excruciating. Every time I told the doctor I was in pain she was just like “it shouldn’t hurt,” like that meant anything. Ended up getting super traumatized, dropped out of college, felt like my body had changed (had these weird cramps that just went away a few months ago after going to an actual gynecologist and having a much better experience, so I think the cramps were psychosomatic), and I’m still dealing with it a year later. Felt like rape, but everyone keeps telling me that it wasn’t and I should just “get over it” so I’m super confused. Been warned about rape since I was 11 (told that’s why I couldn’t do all the things my brother could) so now that I’ve had this incredibly painful experience with some unwelcome thing going inside my vagina and it’s not rape… I just don’t get it.
Hi. This stupid doctor took unfair advantage of you. You went to her in all innocence not knowing what she had planned for you.
You are a virgin and she had no right to do that to you. She knows you dont do this to virgins. Complain to the medical authorities.
Now you need to move on with your life. Read the comments and articles on this site and get strong. Learn from other women. Smears are not necessary or mandatory. Learn to stand up to doctors. Dont be afraid to be ‘very’ firm with them.
X
I did complain to the medical authorities. Nothing’s happening. So I’m taking matters into my own hands. In my mind, if she doesn’t accept responsibility for what happened, it’s my responsibility, which means it’s my responsibility to make sure this never happens again. I take my responsibilities very seriously.
I made my doctor permately resolve the issue and I am never to be asked about them again. I once had an asshole male Dr when I refused a pap asked what my husband would want me to do. I went bat shit crazy on him.
Oh my Monica – you made me laugh so loud in the office everyone wanted to know why – Thank you for making my day with your comment “I went bat shit crazy on him”. I seriously am PMSL at the moment! Brilliant!
Just goes to show how paternalistic they all are….like a husband has any right to that decision about ones body…..I dam well think not!
A male using another male to enforce his own “authority” and to get his own way. Says a lot!
I haven’t posted here in like 4 years. So I’ve been seeing a nurse practitioner since my old doctor didn’t work out. She was obsessed with pap smears. Granted, she mostly left me alone because I’m a very good liar and would reassure her that my midwife was doing them (not) and flat out told her, “You really don’t need to bother yourself with my girly stuff. Ever. If I have an issue I’ll let you know.” However, she always had the stuff set up in every exam room and it was really weird. CREEPY. I left her because she literally blamed every health problem I had on my weight. Ear infection? It’s because you’re fat. Sprained ankle? Fat. Inherited thyroid problems? Fat. I lost it after the sprained ankle (slipped on the stairs and rolled it) and fired her.
I’ve been with this NP for a year and she’s really great. She’s very sweet I have a good rapport with her and instead of blaming everything on my weight, she is trying to help me understand the underlying causes of why I struggle to lose weight and celebrates when I’ve lost even a little amount instead of telling me it’s not good enough. Paps have never come up because she never asked, but she did this past week when she suggested a physical later this year with all the bells and whistles. I took a deep breath and looked her right in the eyes and said, “I understand I am overdue for a physical and I do need to keep an eye on some things, but know that I will not consent to any GYN exams or pap smears or breast exams. I never will. They are invasive and I cannot abide them without panic attacks for months afterwards. I understand the risks. I am low risk for HPV and breast cancer, anyway, and I choose not to be screened.”
She shrugged and said, “That’s fine. When you book your appointment online, just write in the notes section that you don’t want any GYN or breast stuff and we won’t worry about it.” She then grinned and said, “Makes the appointment shorter anyway.”
I was floored. Never have I met a practitioner who was so accepting of my choices and didn’t argue with me. Maybe it’s because I’m over 40 or maybe because I was proactive. I almost hugged her, I was so happy. She’s definitely got me as a lifelong patient now!
I’ve gone on here anonymously before and I’ll comment again. So I talked to my husband about my choice not to screen, and several reasons why I won’t and why it’s pointless and extremely invasive, he was sweet about it and supportive in my decision. I’m going to my doctor today to get my hip checked out because it’s been hurting on and off every day since about the middle of October, so I want to see if they could refer me to someone who can check it out properly like a physical therapist or to get an x ray and so on. My husband agreed to go with me to my appointment but then he had something going on which he might not be able to come, so I, not being dominant in my personality AT ALL, am pretty nervous about going and hearing basically the FIRST QUESTION being “when was your last pap smear” and then trying to coerce me into doing it as if it has ANYTHING to do with my hip??!!! I’m more concerned about my hip than my reproductive system. I think my reproductive organs are healthy and well! It’s my hip flexor and hip socket that’s bothering me! I’m a ballet dancer just a couple years away from being a professional, and I NEED my hip to do well for my performing career, especially being 24 and wanting to continue after 25. How can I stick up for myself if by chances my husband won’t be there with me at my appointment? Any pointers or suggestions? I’d love to hear from some of you soon, thank you. And thank you for making this page a reality because now I know I’m not alone 🙂
“I don’t participate in screening and I’m well-informed about the consequences. I am not discussing this any further. I am here to be seen about my hip.” Grey-rock, don’t JADE (justify – argue – defend – explain). If you try that, you’ll only sit there discussing your choice 95% of the time if the doctor is a pressuring one, and won’t have your hip looked at properly. I hope it goes smoother than you imagine and that you don’t have to say anything at all or just a mild “No thank you”.
Quite simply just say “NO THANK YOU, I have made an informed decision not to screen, now please can we use the consult time for the problem I am here for”.
You are in charge of your body and there is no need to justify your refusal. Always remember “No decision about you without you”
It’s pretty bad when this pap crap becomes a barrier for women who seek medical care for things which are actually wrong. It’s almost like an “admission fee”. Grrrr. You’re not alone, and I think women are starting to wake up and notice that our health is not contained exclusively in our reproductive system.
As I had an appointment for an actual medical condition derailed into pap coercion, and where I kept my clothes on, I can sympathize. Yes, you’re a ballet dancer, and good enough that you’re looking forward to having a performing career in it (wooo hooo! WTG!), the functionality of your hips is VERY important to you. You’re not fearing a rare cancer, which is nearly unheard of in women under 25.
My suggestion is to bring the conversation back to the issue with your hip when they try to bring up your genitalia. “Let’s get back to the reason I’m here. My hip (describe again).” Or, you could embarrass them, with a question, “So, you think the issue in my hip is actually in my vagina or cervix?” If they say it does, GET IT IN WRITING! Then, take that to everyone from the medical board to the media.
It’ll make you feel better to have a backup plan. Could you see about getting to a different doctor, perhaps an orthopedist, whose interest and practice is the bones and connective tissue?
You’ve received excellent advice from everyone. At medical appointments I always keep in mind that by asserting myself I’m not only standing up for my right to bodily autonomy and full informed consent, but also helping other women who may have the same concerns. We’re all part of the same movement striving for respectful healthcare where we receive the same balanced information and informed consent that men do, and when one of us speaks up we are strengthening all of us.
Constantly repeating “I opted out and signed a disclaimer ” then remaining silent worked for me. After asking about 4 times why I didn’t want a smear test and my repeating the above he finally got the message ..NO ? you STILL don’t want to have a smear test? You can guess my reply…one defeated doc hung up the phone
I found being calm and firm worked a treat, don’t engage in debate, that’s what they want, try not to be defensive…I know that’s hard because the pressure we face works in their favour, we’re in their consult room. Of course, this strategy is easier as we get older, at your age I simply avoided doctors. Of course, that’s unacceptable, we’re entitled to medical care without pressure to have screening tests or exams we don’t want…
I know young women who were seriously over-treated as a result of early screening, the risk of a false positive is very high below 30 and especially under 25, we know screening does not benefit young women. Now it’s even easier…women can self test for hpv from age 30, 95% will be hpv- and can forget about cc. Women might choose to re-test for hpv every 5 or 10 years…or if confidently monogamous or no longer sexually active, might forget about screening full stop.
I’d gauge your doctor’s attitude, you’ll soon know…if you face pressure, coercion, I’d leave and find another doctor. At only 24, a pap test is a bad idea, even here in Australia they’ve finally raised the screening age to 25: still too young, but too many vested interests want to do pointless colposcopies and biopsies on young women.
You’ll find the strategy that works for you but my advice is to calmly say you’d just like to focus on your hip issue…and start talking about your hip and dance career.
Very exciting, the ballet is so beautiful…
Thank you all for your amazing comments! So I went in and luckily there was no discussion on my reproductive system and pap smears. The focus was on my hip, just like I hoped! I told my husband about it and he was like “oh good, I was worrying for a while and felt really bad I couldn’t be there and hoped you were doing okay. Glad they focused on your hip.” Also, my husband is and has been my only sexual partner, so like… what’s going to happen? Is monogamous sex going to, give me… cancer??? How? I’m pretty sure a healthy sex life is GOOD for the vagina, not cancerous. Pretty sure my husband’s semen is not gonna poison my insides! Anyway, so I’ll be going into physical therapy here soon and then might have an MRI done as well to see exactly what’s going on and how they could fix it. Thank you all for your wonderful support! I am hoping I can get my hip fixed soon because I love ballet so much with a huge passion, and I MUST keep doing it!! ❤
I’m SO GLAD that you found a doctor who could focus on, and treat, the problem at hand rather than run you around with your reproductive system first.
They don’t have any problems sewing the seeds of doubt in one another if they come up with the woman having HPV…. even though it’s more likely that HPV were put into her in the clinic than her husband having an affair, the affair notion will be brought up. Or, if that doesn’t work, put in a the notion of a “forgotten” sexual attack when you were very young.
It’s great to see you being faithful, and sticking by and helping each other in anticipation for this being brought up in lieu of medical care.
Hi.
Not posted for a while as busy sorting out this deregistering debaticle. They in fact in a fashion admitted defeat about the finger prick tests and all sorted now and re registered.
Back in November I emailed a complaint to healthwatch and last night I finally got a reply (new record LOL) I was astounded at the content surrounding cervical screening and apparently I need councelling with a sample taker. I let you read it for yourself.
I’m emailing to pass on some guidance from NHS England about cervical screening in case you are still having trouble with your GP practice
‘Women can opt out of the programme at any time but we would rather the woman deferred
The GP under no circumstances can refuse to opt them out of the programme.
In the East Midlands there is a policy in place that if a woman requests via her practice to be ceased from the programme, she should have a face to face discussion with her sample taker to ensure she is fully informed of the risks of not attending and importantly she can opt into the programme at any time in the future as long as she is in the eligible age range (25 – 64)
PCSE are notified by the sample taker to send the woman a copy of the national disclaimer form and thje woman chooses to sign the form and return it for action by PCSE, or chooses not to sign herself out of the programme’
Rose they’re chancing their luck. I informed my GP and the screening centre in writing I was opting out. I was sent the disclaimer and signed and returned it. There’s no requirement to get counselling
Hi I’ve been reading this site for over four years now. I can’t even go to my docs any more I’ve not been to well lately but I won’t go and get any help! I’ve not had a smear test for 8years now and I don’t won’t one so when I go to my docs i always get the you need to have a smear test! I go home feeling like I wish I was not a female. I live in the u.k
I’m sorry this pap crap is acting as a barrier to your seeking medical care. I hope your issue goes away,but if it doesn’t, I would encourage you to see a doctor – and stand your ground about refusing the pap, and actually get diagnosed and treated for your actual medical problem(s), rather than some rare cancer.
Hi Hayley
I’m sorry you’re not feeling well. Hopefully it’s nothing to worry about and you’ll get better without having to seek medical care. If you do need to see a doctor, this site has loads of advice and tips to help you assert yourself in the face of any pressure to have a smear. Please keep us posted, we care!
I’ve been having a pap smear annually for around 35 years, all normal, and I’m sick and tired of it. I called my ob-gyn and asked for an order for a mammogram which I should get annually especially since this year I can get 3D. Every year I have gotten a mammogram I get a report that there is no sign of cancer but that they can’t tell because of dense breast tissue. My Ob-gyn said I don’t have to have a pap every year but I do have to come in for a pelvic exam annually in order for them to write an order for a mammogram. So they’re going to do a pelvic exam but no pap smear? This is crazy and it’s all about billing for the additional service.
What are they looking for in these pelvic exams? Spare change? The bimanual exam is deprecated by all medical organizations, the ACOG being the only one that recommends it, but no real reason. Just an observation that women talk to their providers about things they might not otherwise during the bimanual exam – which lacks specificity or sensitivity to diagnosing any disease.
Why have a mammogram? It increases the ionizing radiation your breasts will have been exposed to over your lifetime, increasing your chances of cancer. It increases lead time bias for diagnosis, but the evidence that it increases the life expectancy just from breast cancer is unconvincing. It does greatly increase the chances of having more surgery.
Well, ya know, bethkz, it may not have any clinical value, but it’s a crucial BONDING exercise. You know, like the deep and inescapable lifelong bond that a rape victim has with her rapist. Barf.
I refused to even start mammograms. I have never had one.
Also you’d expect a mammogram clinic to have the most updated equipment but can you even ask before making an appointment? I am sure that many clinic have old clunky machines that are churning out excessive radiation. Doctors will lie and say that new mammograms are better, less radiations, can see cancer better or you have less chance of removing your whole breast. Is just having a chink taken out much better than losing all or both breasts? Do I even want to think about it?
Plus the bit about making sure not to use ANY lotions, creams, deodorant, perfume on your breasts or underarms before going For a mammogram. How does using an aluminum antiperspirant affect mammograms? Even if you do not use it the morning of, there could be residual metal particles in the area.
Same Moo. I declined my first “invitation ” to breast crushing and opted out immediately afterwards. I should have had my 2nd end of last year if I’d stayed in the programme
Hi ladies, so I have read statistic and I’m now aware that cervical cancer is rare and pap tests produce a huge amount of false positives, but how do I retrain my mind to believe this and not the brainwashing crap I’ve been lead to believe, how do I convince my head that its rare when for the past 30 years I have been lead to believe that it’s a common cancer and I should have regular pap test to protect myself, the brainwashing is going to take time and patients to get change the way I think any tips would be appreciated xxx
Sherry, I found knowledge helped me enormously, I could see through the hype, knew they were misleading and even lying to women. I knew the propaganda was just that, so found I could dismiss any concerns, I really didn’t have too many concerns about cc, it was more concern at the oppressive, dishonest, harmful and sexist medical regime at work, that obviously viewed women as medical targets. It was far more than unethical, I think it was illegal and an abuse of our human rights.
I have the sort of mind and personality, if it doesn’t make sense, if I’m being pressured, the heels dig into the ground, I think that saved me, it motivated me to look for the evidence. (this was pre-internet too)
So I recommend you read widely – if you find it’s bothering you too much, then you could consider self-testing for HPV, almost all women over 30 are HPV- so that means you can forget about cc – if you worry about a new infection, then you can always re-self-test 5 or 10 years later, depending on your age.
For almost all women, Pap tests are unnecessary, they just expose you to risk – those concerned can easily self test for HPV – it’s that easy or should be, but too many enjoy the profits that flow from these invasive and excessive testing programs, they don’t care about women, it’s about control of their business model and profits. Over-testing and over-treatment has been a very lucrative business for a very long time.
I wish there was a group for us people who feel the exact same way about this so that we can make a difference.
Women should never be forced into having a pap smear done, especially if their risk is extremely low and their reasoning to visit the doctors is for a completly different reason. I’ll admit, I did get quite a laugh from reading this post because of the gifs (especially the middle finger one) haha!
But in all honesty, I think it’s ridiculous to hear stories of women being forced to have a pap smear done…. especially for the so called “doctor” to come in and want to ask you for one after you came in for a sprained ankle? Wtf? What was your doctor’s name? Dr.Shit-for-brains?
If that were me and I was a doctor and noticed that a patients ankle was sprained, I could give less fucks on when was the last time they had their pelvic exam done. I would instead, take a look at the patients ankle,and ask them if they’re in any severe pain,ect.
I really hope that you and anyone else out there that’s reading this that have been put in a similar situation with their doctor will end up receiving so much better care by someone else. No one deserves to be forced to have an unnecessary exam done.
Yes, I’ve had a doctor harp on me about pap when I was seeing him for my diabetes and thyroid.
There is no reason for that! I’ve got some better responses now than I had a couple of years ago, but to bring up the “harassment bordering on coercion” (and actually BECOMES coercion – legally a form of force – when penetrating someone’s vagina and/or anus is required before they can get medical treatment).
It would be easy to stop and go elsewhere – except this goes on almost everywhere by most physicians. In the US it costs a significant amount of money to see the doctor, and if they push pap instead of whyever you needed to see the doctor, it takes time as well to see another. Someone can become poor and untreated – and eventually give up seeking treatment – going through these hoops.
I am in the US, so it’s a for-profit system, totally. In other countries where it’s a government program, it might take a little more effort to find another doctor – who is likely again to push pap according to the national program.