This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion, and is a continuation of the old Blogcritics’ Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion. The original Blogcritics Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion had more than 10,000 comments, but the comments were deleted following changes to the Blogcritics’ site.
Fortunately, the comments from Blogcritics have since been recovered and are preserved here: http://unnecessarypapsmears.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/over-10000-lost-comments-on-unnecessary-pap-smears-find-a-home/ This post also provides a ‘part three’ continuation of the ‘part two’ discussion forum that exists on this site: https://forwomenseyesonly.com/2013/09/22/discussion-forum/
Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.
Sorry it’s me again , haven’t been sleeping too well lately so I’ve been up all night watching the news, the BBC says it understands the Covid jab is to be made compulsory in England for all care home staff, we know that this carries the risk of blood clots and has been determined to be the cause of death in some cases, so my question is if their autonomy is taken away , and they are FORCED to take the jab which results in a death , which minister or ministers will be facing the charge of manslaughter.
Hear in the states, we are being bribed with winning money. They want more people vaccinated. A lot of people don’t trust it. They are trying to make unvaccinated feel targeted. Like telling them they have to be excluded in certain activities. I don’t think people are listening tho.
Heck, I’ve been targeted for having the audacity to wait for the protein subunit vax that should release by the end of the year! And continuing to mask/distance though I’ll do that even after being vaxxed because I’ve read enough to know its too soon to stop. Apparently, it’s not enough for some folks to get vaxxed, it has to be mRNA or go to Hell antivaxxer,and if you’re vaxxed you damn well better drop the mask or else how will they know who to assault?
When you’re enraged that someone is choosing a different vax than the experimental mRNA, it doesn’t make you a responsible pro-vaxxer, it makes you an mRNA stan.
It makes me think of those pro-gyn, pro-pap folks who consider self-hpv tests to be exactly as bad as not being screened at all, because it’s not about a supposed “concern for health” its about pap fandom.
It’s just been announced in UK care home staff will be forced to have vaccine or lose their jobs and they are looking at making it mandatory for NHS workers too, and making them have the flu vaccine too! I can see a lot of legal challenges! I had my 1st AZ jab, but declined the second one as I’m not convinced it’s safe. I do get the flu vaccine. I do wonder what will next be made mandatory… smears maybe??
Different posters hold divergent views about the Covid vaccine and previous discussions about it got a little heated. Rather than potentially causing hard feelings among friends, I wonder if it would be best to stick with the main purpose of this board – to discuss the lack of transparency, honesty and informed consent in women’s healthcare and to educate, enlighten and empower each other to advocate for ourselves in a medical setting.
You’re absolutely right that the Covid issue should not be incorporated into our own agenda, every individual has their own opinion and right to self govern where the vaccine is concerned, I think what the others mean is that if the government can bypass the individual choice of bodily autonomy and the human rights act section 8 to achieve their goals
With this enforced proposal ,what other procedures could also be enforced in the name of healthcare by them ,and surely that does concern us and our agenda if we are complacent with this issue , we may all end up in the stirrups by law.
Hugs Jules x.
Hi Jules- yes, of course and the concern about possible threats to individual liberties and bodily autonomy is very understandable. But anyhow, to follow my own advice on discussion topics – ovarian cancer has been in the news this week. Apparently, Christiane Amanpour, the CNN international news anchor was recently diagnosed with it. She said she went public “as a shoutout to early detection.” She also urged women to “get as many regular screenings and scans as you can.” Which sounds all warm and fuzzy until you realize there IS no early detection test for ovarian cancer. It’s surprising that a journalist of her stature could spread such misinformation. I wish her well and realize she may be emotional in the face of a devastating diagnosis and not thinking clearly. But she’s doing women a disservice to lead them into believing any screening or scan routinely leads to diagnosis of ovarian cancer in its early stages. Rather, as we all know, these tests are more likely to harm than to help.
It is amazing to me that people who make full information about such screenings have to include “this is not medical.advice, please do more research and discuss with your doctor” and emphasise it so it can’t be missed, but this kind of ignorant deal is allowed to be reported and promoted with zero disclaimers at all, even though our side is merely offering well-documented facts that are usually omitted from official discussions while this is baseless nonsense she is pulling out of her rear. Why are you at risk of lawsuit for telling people to do their own research and get fully informed before accepting a medical exam, but not at risk for telling people to get a medical exam to prevent a cancer it doesn’t even test for?
So telling people the well-documented but un-reported cons to compliment the overly advertised and exaggerated pros of a medical test needs a careful disclaimer, but telling people to get thorough genital exams to prevent ovarian cancer despite there being no test in existence for ovarian cancer is just fine as-is?
Never give up arms for peace & security.
You get neither in return.
Has anyone UK noticed that this year there’s less in the press about cervical hysteria week? Daily fail would usually have printed a couple articles by now raising awareness!? Nada so far! Not that I’m complaining!
Don’t forget pro screeners have just gotten their arse kicked for one of their latest promotional slogans, and they maybe at a loss as to which direction to go now as in the past they relied heavily on ridicule,I suppose it would be too much to ask , for truthful disclosure on test accuracy, information on false negative or false positive findings and the treatments and after effects of these, proberly not . So I’m just waiting for the next infantile and scolding attempt by them to round up the herd, it’s almost pitiful (NOT). Hugs Jules x.
Sad news about Christiane Amanpour, but what surprises me most is her total lack of understanding, by anyone’s standard she couldn’t be described as dumb, she was well educated achieving good grades at school and going on to gain a degree in journalism from Rhode Island university, she’s gone on to jetting all around the world reporting in war torn world conflicts and becoming a news anchor person with her own news programme.
At 63 years old she has probably had considerable life experiences, so why has she been so naive over her illness it just doesn’t make sense. The only answer I can think of is that she has been misled by the medical profession, by going for regular checks women have been led to believe this checks for every vaginal disease under the sun ,when in truth it only detects cell changes on the cervix and even then it’s far from being 100% . Surely with this being a high profile case and her going public with it , why has no medical establishment has come forward to correct her and pointed out to this present day there is no test for ovarian cancer. It simply comes down to a lack of information released by the medical profession they are reluctant to do this as more women will leave their testing programmes if the truth becomes readily available
My heart is just wrenched when I hear if any woman’s cancer story. I winder how much pain and worry Christian Amanpour had before she finally got a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. Consider Fran Drescher who had a struggle of two years to get doctors to finally diagnose her uterine cancer. Just so tragic.
It’s interesting because the medical establishment has occasionally publicly corrected celebrities who give inaccurate information – i.e., that early detection of breast cancer is always lifesaving when in reality 25%-30% of these cancers, even if found by mammogram, eventually metastasize. Perhaps in the case of Ms. Amanpour its more difficult because she hasn’t disclosed any specifics about her case (like stage, etc. – though it was likely discovered late stage as the vast majority of these cancers are). For all anyone knows, she was having her much-touted regular screenings and scans and was the one in a gazillion who got extraordinarily lucky and her cancer was found early this way. But that would be an extremely rare case and she would still be irresponsible for spouting this wildly inaccurate information.
Just come across a report from 2017 and wondered if anybody else had seen it. In an observational study by the Keck School of medicine usc, found that the use of iud’s led to a decrease of cervical cancer in approximately 30% of the study participants which involved 12,000 women, the lead professor a dr Victoria Cortessis phd said the findings were astounding although there is no clear indication why this is, it is the belief that the body responds to the introduction of the iud as a foreign body and reacts by increasing the immune system in that area, and in turn eradicating the hpv virus if present. Just wondered if anyone has any further info on this.
Love Helper x.
HPV reduced? If woman has hpv already, and especially if it’s in the endocervical canal, then inserting an iud would spread hpv further.
Just been on Jo’s tosh and things might be looking up, they have always liked passing the begging bowl round , but times must be especially hard at the moment, as when you check out their donation section they are asking for
£16.00 , £30.00 or £50.00 , off their followers, looks like times are a bit grim for them at the minute
( where’s the chianti) lol.
Hugs Jules x..
In Scotland the screening programme has come in for criticism for the exclusion of 430 women from smears who had , had sub-total hysterectomies over the past 24 years, which has led to the death of one of them from cervical cancer.
The women’s health minister
Maree Todd acknowledged the failure and apologised to the women involved, and condolences to the family of the deceased woman, the remaining women have been fast tracked for appointments with hospitals and gp’s , the Scottish government has provided funding to Jo’s tosh to give support and advice to women who may of been affected, after cervical awareness week, this incident is most certainly not the best way to promote their programme, if they must impose this dreadful test on women they should at least get it
f..cling right. My heartfelt sympathy goes out to this women’s family.
and an increased hatred to this profession.
Hugs Jules x.
Hey everyone. So, I’ve been doing lots and lots of reading and research on pregnancy and unassisted childbirth, specifically on the “Women Against Stirrups” website, which led to many other sources I was able to get my information from. My eyes have been wide open to, whenever my time comes, wanting more and more to give birth completely unassisted at home instead of at a hospital. First off, I already know that even during pregnancy, the pap tests (aka the medical rape tests) are completely unnecessary and are sometimes the primary causes of miscarriages (omg who knew?? *sarcasm*). Second, the fact that pregnancy and childbirth are treated as one of the most serious medical emergencies is just outrageous. Seriously? One of the most natural of things in the entire world that humans and all other species of animals have been doing since the beginning of time, is an emergency situation and when not done with 50 doctors and nurses intervening the entire time it’s “risky” and “dangerous”?
I have learned that through my reading, the primary cause of labor pains being as intense as they are, is intervention and lack of privacy. The cervix is basically a sphincter, like one in the anus. It does NOT respond well to commands like “push” and “just relax.” It doesn’t respond well either to eyes gazing in that area, and that is why the uterus and cervix tenses and tightens up so much more than it should. Even if you “trust” the doctor or midwife, your body tells you “I am NOT comfortable with this.” There are MUCH fewer risks of complications during pregnancy and birth if you just let your body do its thing and do it all on your own. Women back in the day and even other animals would completely isolate themselves and do their laboring and birthing within a matter of 2 hours, wash themselves off and their newborn baby, and come back and resume their normal life. Because of no intervention, their births were relatively painless and effortless, which in turn won’t cause them to tear!
With all this amazing and informative information I’ve read, I’ve decided that whenever my time comes, whenever my husband and I decide to have kids, that I’ll be birthing at home, unassisted. I only have a few questions, however. What if I experience some complications in the middle of the pregnancy, or will it be less likely that I’ll experience complications with the unborn baby when I don’t go in for exams? Because of course, I know there can be like premature heart problems or other defects, when not taken care of, that can be very dangerous and possibly fatal to the mother. If the fetus dies and I have a miscarriage, would I just have to run to the bathroom and let the sac come out or something? I would love to hear all your guys’ input and knowledge on this subject. Sorry if there are a lot of questions lol and sorry this post is so long, but I appreciate if any of you took the time to read. Also, would I be able to go to non-transvaginal ultrasounds without the pressure of getting any pelvic exam done? (Probably not lol)
Hey Anonymous! I don’t know which country your in, but I read an article in a UK magazine about non medicalised birth. Here in UK it’s perfectly legal to refuse some or all pregnancy care, including scans and ultrasounds. It’s also legal to give birth at home with no midwife or medical ppl around. I guess the cons of no care is that you could end up with a prolapsed cord or low lying placenta which could cause problems. I wrote a birth plan, 25 years ago, I had all my scans , but requested a minimum of internals and didn’t want my waters artificially broken. My daughter was also overdue, and I didn’t want to be induced; she was still moving fine, and I went regularly to hospital for monitoring, she came when she was ready! Let us know what happens with you!!
Hi Kat, I’m in the US and unfortunately it’s legally required to have a midwife or doula or something if you’re doing a home birth… however my mother is a doula so I can easily have her be my doula and I know she’ll definitely respect any of my requests. However I’m wondering if I would be able to like, not tell my doctor when I get pregnant, and no one in the medical field has to know until after they’re born lol, would that be possible or is that “too risky” for the baby or myself? Or maybe, I can just go in for ultrasounds and let them know that my mom will be my doula and everything’s good??? Sorry, a hundred more questions haha.
Also, I hate the idea of inducing labor! Seriously, so what if they’re not due EXACTLY on their due date??? They’ll come out when they’re ready! Birth being so medicalized is just beyond me… it’s 100% natural, not a medical emergency.
Anyway, I’d love to hear more input. I think my only other concern really is maintaining a healthy weight, because I’m a little underweight, and I hear that I’d be at risk for a premature birth. I’m 5’7 and weigh around 115lbs; super high metabolism lol. Really the only way I can gain weight is by lifting weights. Cardio won’t do much, so I need to actually lift and eat a ton more protein.
If you’re forced to induce, it’s so painful you’ll never want to birth again.
I’m of the same view.
My advice to you (based on homebirth midwives’ views in Australia) is that your vagina does not ask for your BMI.
Second, inductions… here in Aus, they put in a epidural, which basically immobilises you. More often than not, the baby can’t cope with the unnatural intensity.
Hi anonymous, Reading your post, you are already going in the right direction by researching, the female body is amazing, and reproduction is a natural process, when you decide to have children, be wary of medical intervention remember it’s your body your decision and they can’t do a thing without your concent, when I arrived at this site I was clueless, now I say “bring it on”.
Hi Anonymous: again, I think it boils down to the law in your country: legally there you have to be attended at birth, what rules apply to pregnancy?? I have read things are tightening up in the USA all round with abortion and fetid rights? Here as said we can refuse any or all care and don’t have to be attended! I agree 100% with all your comments about birth being medicalised but being so natural, I remember being shocked when I was pregnant for 1 st and only time 25 years ago I was classed as an older 1st time mum at just 32!?
Sorry should read foetus rights not fetid!!!
Hi ladies, it seems that Matt Hancock is in deep trouble for being exposed as an adulterer, and breaching social distancing rules, let me guess , would it of been by two metres and six inches maybe, no doubt he will be replaced , hopefully by someone who is more sympathetic to scientific studies, and reasoning.
Love Helper x.
Hi Helper yes another slime ball gone! I wish the whole bloody lot would go! As someone who endured sexual harassment for years in my last job I was really upset about Boris rape comments last week, and can only imagine how rape survivors felt!! I still remember Demonic Cummins as I call him driving to a beauty spot to test his eyesight! Now Matt cock it up Hancock (in more ways than one) has gone too!
HPV self-testing still so slow in coming, which this Australian paper puts down to a complete lack of awareness, not only amongst women, but also amongst GPs. Even after becoming available since 2017, they still don’t appear to know about it. It is sad that they are still doing these pilots, when other countries have reported on self-swabbing as being much preferred to the violating invasive test. They report only 57% uptake of cervical screening in Australia, (much of that under pressure, no doubt), but don’t seem to think that this shows an overwhelming lack of acceptability of the invasive test. Yet they do all this research into whether women would find swabbing themselves in private an acceptable experience.
My take on this, is that the powers that be have designed the self test programme for HPV to fail from the onset, if they were truly serious about implementing it , there would of been a massive public advertising campaign, with all the relevant information being on radio , tv , newspapers, women’s magazines, leaflets through doors, they might have the impression that if it’s kept low key and uptake is low they can say that it was introduced but because of lack of interest ,they are reverting back to the old method, as we all know they hate relinquishing their “power” over women, keeping us in the dark and feeding us misinformation has always been the rule of the day.
Hugs Jules x.
The ideal “self-test” is the Delphi Screener. This is the only “passive collection” test in existence. Meaning although you do insert it into the vagina, it doesn’t physically harm nor disturb the cervix.
Like the Trovagene test; but that’s based on urine. So both are passive but different in how each is utilized.
The other self test kits all involve some sort of “swabbing” the cervix.
This, as I’ve said, disturbs the mucus covering the cervix.
If you’ve got the virus, the last thing you want is to possibly scratch or message the virus into the tissues. That mucus is there for a reason. It’s to protect. And lubricate.
So yes, the self tests selected are set to fail.
Because no doubt these will spread the virus around the cervix.
Business has changed somewhat, but it’s still business as usual.
Please take this info to your healthcare HQ and ask them to comment. I’d love to know…
So Seeker will have a series about women’s health and why its so limited. This opener gave a promising start by decrying bikini medicine, but is it my imagination or does it go on to promote bikini medicine in part?
Thought I’d send this out to my pro-choice-in-health-care sisters to see what you think and to heads-up for the future of this new show. If they go off the rails into pro-bikini medicine while pretending to oppose it, I’m sure they’ll get some good pushback!
Any open discussions on female healthcare is welcome , bringing this topic to the masses so more awareness is available is fantastic, as long as it’s non biased and all sides have their chance to air their opinions .
Hugs Jules x.
I get it, I’m just hoping its not, like, an attempt to co-opt gyn-critical language and terms for the industry propaganda machine. Seen that happen a scary lot of times in.other contexts. So the “isn’t it just terrible how women’s health only focuses on bikini areas to the exclusion of everything else, now lets focus on the bikini areas” makes me a bit apprehensive.
A report on sky news today has said that tens of thousands of women across the uk that have received the Covid vaccine have had significant changes from the normal in their cycles.
This must be down to the fact that it has an effect on the hormonal balance of women, how come this has only just been disclosed when approximately 65% of the country has been vaccinated, and what other side effects will come to light in the future, as usual we are being kept in the dark and fed propaganda
(Sound familiar) .
Hugs Jules x.
Just recently in the Daily Fail.
This article is not accurate.
Thr tenaculum is not a clamp or clamping device.
It’s a single pointed “claw” like appearing device. With a handle for the doctor to grip and manipulate.
Once the speculum has you opened like you’re gonna have sex with an alien, the tenaculum is used.
It’s literally stabbed into side of cervix.
Then the cervix can be manipulated and pulled into position.
The pain? It’s hellish cramping and spasm as your cervix fights this most unnatural torture. Your cervix is full of sympathetic nerves. These monitor and report pain, dilation, cramps.
Picture as many nerves as is in penis head.
Now as the cervix is pulled and held the cold metal dilators are used to forcibly open the cervix. You’ll experience burning pain and cramps in cervix and uterus.
After cervix is forcibly dilated in which it now bleeds along with tenaculum penetratuon hole.
Next comes the uterine sound. This dilates you more as well as touching back of uterus.
My internist doctor says it’s the most pain in 2.5 minutes she’ll ever experience–but then she won’t have to worry about it again for 5 years.
So that bs nonsense stinking thinking makes it all permissible and valid?!
Next, after the uterine sound is withdrawn, the device is inserted which delivers the IUD into place.
This is also hellish but you’re in shock by this time.
Then more pain as everything is withdrawn.
This is an accurate accounting.
This is no more fair to husbands and partners and even kids at home. They are involuntarily stuck dealing with after effects.
This is traumatic all around.
And the $1,000,000 question is – why on earth would any woman subject herself to this?
If women new, they NEVER would allow it.
That’s one of the reasons why the “privacy sheet” or tarp is used.
It afford the doctor, not the patient, privacy to do what s/he wants.
You never get to see the instruments used on you. They are on the tray; usually covered for “sterility” but believe me they were uncovered before you got there.
My husband uses something similar to stab an aluminum can he can’t reach.
A tenaculum is literally a nail mounted 90′ from an extension bar with a handle.
Imagine a tomato impelled with something like that.
Imagine a male doctor quickly covering his genitals if you held one up to use on him.
Another reason to bring your own advocate for in office procedures.
I invite any doctor or nurse to debate me on this.
Hi cat & mouse,
I had been looking at long term contraception during my last relationship, unfortunately it ended before I had made the decision ,and since then I have never had to make the choice, with a bit of a man famine and Covid coming into play, but the iud was towards the top of the list, but reading your post made me think twice, at the time I had been to the family planning clinic and picked up all the information I could on the different options, and their description of the procedure was that only 5% of women felt pain and most only felt mild discomfort, pinching or slight cramping (lying bast..ds ) Reading your post soon had me checking it all out, there are numerous sites with women’s stories and some are simply horrendous, one lady screamed that they had to stop the procedure as she had never felt pain like it just before she threw up and then passed out, the people who come up with these types of medical interventions must have torture dungeons in their basements, needless to say this option has now been struck from the list.
Hugs Jules x.
We are here for three reasons. To educate and to be educated. The share our experiences be they what they may. However as we all know most experiences with ob-gyne are poor. And, sharing to help prevent another from experiencing what I endured. Both my husband and I have had very bad experiences with doctors and hospitals.
We are adamant about NOT going into an exam room alone. You are dealing with an educated, motivated individual who’s already compromised his/her values to get where they are. Your needs, your pain, isn’t even on their radar screens. They don’t care.
With my pain, this has been a rough day. Especially with the f-up’d nonsense how narcotics are now administered.
I’m tired of male physicians who treat us as hysterical and not as a patient; let alone as a whole body patient. There’s other parts to us than a vagina. And just because we have one, doesn’t mean that it’s time for high school science class again. You know? I require brand name meds. Generics are like drinking a liter of beer and expecting you can piss out a forest fire when you should simply stick to extinguishing bbq’s in the stadium parking lot.
Doctors don’t believe us. Especially when it’s to do with pain.
Before you were here, I discussed what it’s like to experience an endometrial biopsy. Briefly I’ll review this; because I feel you’ll pick up on the similar language in its explanation compared to that BS you got re IUD’s.
I was told the biopsy was routine and that I might experience mild cramping like period cramping. No anesthesia required.
My husband knows my pain tolerances which are abnormally high. This is because I need both knees replaced and my shoulder replaced as well. I have chronic regional pain syndrome, bodily. So when hubby heard me screaming, saw me physically recoiling, making fists, crying, leaving my fingernail marks on his wrist, he wanted to know why. The doctor acted as if this was a total surprise to him. The lying **** even exclaimed he’d never seed my reaction before.
When I go back, he wants to repeat it. What does he say? That it’s like experiencing mild cramping, like period cramping. With that my husband stopped him. I was already curling up on the exam table. This is why it’s good to have a buddy with you who knows what goes on. Your bodyguard in a most literal sense.
If an appt goes poorly, who has to deal with it? The spouse. So it’s fair he has a say and vice versa.
My husband went on YouTube and viewed this procedure, top of that he’d already been busy researching other things as well. What the doctor didn’t know is that hubby also accessed a medical text online from UC Berkeley. My husband told him that the test is known as the most painful thing outside childbirth. He disclosed where he read it. And that if it’s truly necessary then the outpatient surgical center would have to be reserved so I could get anesthesia and analgesia. The doctor’s eyes opened. Suddenly he dropped the need for a repeat test. It wasn’t so necessarily after all. We never went back.
This came from a doctor who at one time was running the fertility program at a major San Diego Hospital. I cringe what he and others put woman through to get pregnant. It’s why my husband refused to have children. How many couples divorce after childbirth due to the experience and the doctors/nurses? I’d like to know. The father to be isn’t allowed to participate in his wife’s care. He cannot advocate and protect her. She feels violated over the whole thing. It ruins the very thing it’s supposed to help foster.
My husband’s ex-best friend is an anesthesiologist. He also isn’t concerned with pain, kids included, as he is when he sees an unconscious true red head in stirrups. His arousal is disgusting. And he also allows med students in to practice pelvic exams on unconscious women.
Youtube had a video of a doctor performing the endometrial biopsy.
This guy specifically said in advance how painful it is. He (male doctor; not female) gives his patients an IV for sedation and analgesia. He also has them take Rx anti-inflammatory plus he injects via catheter into the uterus 5cc’s of 2% lido. And he still insists that most women will faint afterwards. That’s because even though the pain is blocked enough is sensed that can cause a vagus nerve reaction.
That guy is a saint!
Did you notice the language, “…like mild period cramping…”? Seems to be their do-all excuse.
What I’d give to perform a pap scrape, biopsy collection, etc, on the head of my former doctor penis.
Not all doctors are idiots. The specialist I’m seeing for my rectocele refused to do a speculum exam due to my lichen sclerosis. That guy treated me like a person. He cared for me, my husband, and how I felt. Another saint!
Always go on YouTube or to venues where you can get an honest explanation.
If a pap is uncomfortable or painful, then imagine what an IUD and/or biopsy is like.
And only 5% of women felt pain? Really? Then they must also be including med school cadavers in the remaining 95%.
Thank you for your patience. God Bless you Jules.
And hope you find the guy that’s worth going on birth control.
Some time ago someone posted a dictionary of Australian medical deception terms related to pain. I am sure they are applicable to many other countries.
Medical bullshit vs patient’s reality:
“painless” – serious discomfort
“virtually painless” – painful
“mild discomfort” – very painful
“some pain” – extreme agony
Unfortunately there’s a lot to that reality.
You forgot “like mild menstrual cramping” that’s the excuse du jour I’ve heard most.
If any of you have late life post vaginal birth incontinence I thoroughly recommend ThermiVa.
Although I had C-section I’ll be having this for lichen sclerosis.
Oh yes, that “mild menstrual cramping”… It’s remarkable that pain from every gyn procedure (except childbirth) is always described as “mild menstrual cramping”, even if in reality it is the most barbaric torture!
The medicos would probably be glad to describe childbirth as “mild menstrual cramping” too, only the word got out thousands years before medicine became a profession/system that took control over female reproductive organs.
It is a sadistic yet common practice: the medical profession routinely uses euphemisms and downplays the pain, calling painful procedures “painless”, and extreme pain — “mild discomfort”. They know that it is impossible for the patient to quantify the pain and later prove what it felt like, so they say whatever keeps the medical conveyor belt going smoothly, quickly and profitably.
I know this is late in the day and not sure what your personal circumstances are.
I suffer from very heavy and painful periods and also experience cramping even during ovulation (sorry for TMI). The former means I am incapacitated for 2 days every month and am severely anaemic.
I have a blood pressure machine at home and decided to order the pill online from Superdrug Online Doctor. It’s fabulous. So discreet and the pill has transformed my life.
Obviously, it’s not suitable for everyone and you need to check you don’t have a family history of blood clots etc but if you can take it, I’d recommend it.
I was on it years ago without any problems, which is another reason why I decided to skip a doctor’s visit.
I’ve talked about how useless my former ob-gyn was and evolved to be even worse. Pap was the only thing he knew.
Presently I’m seen by a fertility expert and a urogyne. The first runs my hrt the second is going to surgically repair me.
I’m grateful to God that my husband still pursues sex and that I’m still multi orgasmic. It has not been easy.
It’s my husband who bucked the system and enabled my liberation from captive fear mongering medical care.
Including that my pharmacists orders generic and brand name meds I need.
This site, your experiences, are what we both needed to gain confidence needed and necessary to challenge the status quo.
Hi cat &mouse,
I probably went a little overboard after your post, to the point of actually watching the procedure on a couple of medical sites, this led to watching vids of other “treatments”,and was left almost in shock, vids of hysterectomys and
vaginal hysterectomys, are particularly unsettling , the actual brutality of the operation is horrific they twist , pull , tug and yank at the organ or organs they are removing apparently devoid of any compassion for the lady undergoing this operation she may as well be a slab of meat ( do not search for these if you have a weak disposition) we seem to be under the misapprehension that surgery is a precise and accurate intervention, where in reality they hack and slash in a similar fashion to Jack the Ripper, and yet this only seems to manifest itself in female healthcare, could it be that these surgeons are failed real surgeons and are taking their frustrations out on us.
Hugs Jules x.
We watched the vaginal hysterectomy in horror. That, believe it or not, is the preferred procedure for removing cervix and uterus! As one piece!
It’s like watching a mechanic remove a spark plug.
The patient is given a large bolus of Michael Jackson milk or propofol. Very deep anesthesia. The vagina is opened up as if delivering a fetus.
Did you get to see an endometrial biopsy?
The more painful procedures are shown as “animated” like a cartoon. Complete with monotone robotic female voice. Things we should know, questions we need answered always go untold. It’s to falsely assure us all will be well. Nada to fear.
Last night we spoke to a lady. She wanted to know why a woman must undergo a pap scrape 6 weeks after delivering a baby.
It’s defensive medicine.
You get scraped; the glass slide gets smeared w your bloody cells.
Medical texts say the cervix is going to naturally show abnormal cells at different times and 6 weeks post partum is one of those.
Same with a young teen, a newly pregnant woman, and different times of a cycle. They try to get you in at same time of cycle yearly so as to find an average when your cells provide a fairly consistent sample.
Did you watch LEEP? The cervix amputation.
Hi cat& mouse,
I will view these vids but I’m taking a break for a day or so, there’s only so much my stomach and mind will take at this moment in time, it’s certainly not what I expected, but to give an opinion you must have all the facts , and although these vids are thoroughly sickening knowledge is power and vitality important if we are to stand our ground in medical situations,
Going to have a couple of glasses of red now , else I probably wouldn’t sleep.
Hugs Jules x.
A couple years I found several videos from an ob gyn going by med2med or med2 or something like that. He’s located in the South US somewhere as I remember.
He loved doing LEEP’s. I despised this jerk and enjoyed writing the truth on his warped site.
What are some of your favorite, or non favorite brainwashing sites?
Like, which ones did you have to check your rage or struggle to keep from vomiting?
Hi cat& mouse,
I managed to pluck up the courage to do some more viewing, a little apprehensive at the content I would see after yesterday but
I managed to get through four treatment vids including the LEEP and cold knife surgery on the cervix , the site is called journals.llw. com.
Obstetrics& gynaecology. But if anybody feels the need to view this site please be prepared, I never knew there were so many procedures that involved the vagina there are literally dozens , and these vids are for medical students and
doctors so they are pretty graphic and distressing. Another site I went to after I needed another break was a women’s group who had set up a comment page for women who had suffered because of having LEEP and one of drawbacks for vast majority of them was the fact that they had lost the ability to orgasm during intercourse, and even cases where all sexual desire was lost and in turn marriages had broken up. It’s hard to see that these treatments do not do more harm than good than good, with the mental anguish , physical consequence and break up of marriages, the more I learn about this, the more I think I would just let nature take its course whatever the consequence.
Hugs Jules x.
This is what my last pap scrape from 7/06 said. The Disclaimer: “The Pap smear is a screening test designed to aid in the detection of premalignant and malignant conditions fo the uterine cervix. It is not a diagnostic procedure and should not be sued as the sole means of detecting cervical cancer. Both false-negative and false-positive reports do occur.” Take that to your doctor, middle finger facing upwards. Afterward, turn your finger down. That means you “don’t like the horse s/he rode in on either.”
TRUSCREEN under FAQ lists pap as only 50% accurate.
Trovagene said their own was 93% accurate. About same as Delphi Screener.
Then, via Healthline: An article “This Cervical Procedure To Prevent Cancer Is Causing Complications.” It’s about LEEP. It details exactly what you have said you’ve read and heard. I’m so sorry about these things.
Then hubby found this tidbit… Letter to the Editor; The Sydney Morning Herald, 9/27/16
This was written in response to a girl who is in stupid panic re NEW guidelines for CC or pap…that if changes are made and the youngest aren’t screened—“WOMEN WILL DIE!” Yeah, that… The author is a pathologist. He should know.
“This is written by a poorly informed patient. A very small number of precancerous turn to cancer, and they shouldn’t be called that. The writer says she had precancerous which very different to real cancer. She had dysplasia which is very common and in the vast majority of cases resolves. Most CIN1 and 2 resolve without treatment. Even CIN3 does most of the time. Cervical cancer is an old woman’s disease because it does usually take 10 years to develop. On the other hand dysplasia in young women is very common. The ration of CC for a woman in her early 20’s is 1.6 per 100,000. The highest ratio is in women over 85.
[I interject here that pap won’t Dx an adenocarcinoma which grows from within the cervix outward; or uterine cancer that metastasizes]
His source: https://cervical cancer.canceraustralia.gov.au.statistics
Leave the advice to the experts. Too many young women were having surgery on “precancels” that would have spontaneously reverted to normal. They then developed an incompetent cervix and had miscarriages.
The new guidelines were correct.”
Let them pour that gravy on their Yorkshire pudding.
Many here have already read this. I apologize for writing it again.
Please, please, print this. Place it on bathroom walls, inside toilet paper, bus stops, everywhere. Tell every friend.
We know women who got pap at their first pregnancy visit. Why? Defensive medicine. Didn’t matter if the previous had been a month ago. This causes miscarriages and is extremely painful. Says in med texts that the cervix is very tender in pregnancy. Especially early stages. Don’t we all know that…!
If my husband could change anything in health care, it would be this nonsense. It is heartbreaking to him. He has seen me go through so much pain. He despises these practices and the doctors who enjoy doing them despite even their own texts teaching that it’s absolutely bogus.
Its goid that they’re getting any kind of support though. Too many victims of bogus procedures like that get beaten down when they come forward.
They don’t care about any of that. Any impact on a woman’s health, wellbeing, personal relationship or quality of life is viewed as collateral.
A new petition has sprung up from a woman who ‘had a cancer scare’ and wants to lower the age for screening. Apparently, she had ‘pre-cancerous cells that would have progressed to cancer without treatment’. More scaremongering and misinformation.
I can’t understand why in this day and age women who have had “near misses”diagnosed do not use their judgement and do research it’s readily available all over the internet, sites like this are a wealth of information and an absolute goldmine on medical statistics , I’m finding it increasingly hard to give sympathy to these women who blindly follow treatments reccomended by doctors and don’t question it at all, no wonder women here feel that they are banging their head against the wall trying to get this across, if I had an issue I would want to know everything I could about it, and not just simply go along with ignorance following doctors orders, but if we just give up the women who do seek help will be left out in the cold and defenceless so besides the “ I’ve been saved ones” this site is for the misinformed and willing to learn women , so don’t become disheartened, eventually we will win.
Love Annette (Helper) xx.
Sadly the brainwashing around screening and these so called “essential” gynae interventions make women very dependent and feel a lot of these procedures are a rite of passage for all women. I have to wonder sometimes why these women keep going back, but it always seems to be that it might be cancer and they won’t be satisfied until every cell in their bodies has been certified cancer-free.
Just seen this. Yet another MP supporting yearly gynae exams for women in the UK. I hope this is nipped in the bud, and the government response is noted. Yet still they keep on coming and coming, and always an MP willing to take them up.
I know. I desperately wish for women to do their own research and make an informed decision to screen/not to screen based on balanced information and to be free from the worry and paranoia that they’re destined to be struck down by cells that ‘turn overnight’. But, I just remember, as soon as I ‘came of age’, I was harassed at every GP appointment about ‘my smear’ (the one I never wanted and certainly never opted into) and told to ‘just get it done, it’s nothing and could well save your life’. Now that they are getting into schools to drum this into young people, I don’t see informed decision making taking a step forward, sadly. Not when teachers are proudly boasting all over social media about the ‘profound’ conversations they had about it and how they’ll all be signing up and encouraging their girlfriends to sign up too x
It is sick, Gem. Somewhere along the line women turned from being ignored medically, to becoming targets for medical harassment by any yahoo with a speculum.
When will we ever reach the middle ground???
We’re still ignored medically while being harassed by everybody holding a speculum. They undertest and undertreat women for heart attacks, including coronary risk factors or giving coronary stress tests – except the cholesterol test which seems to be about as low in predictive value as reading one’s horoscope from a newspaper, There are still tales of women being discharged from a hospital mid-heart attack because she is just “anxious” or even “hysterical”.
We’re being simultaneously neglected and abused, overdiagnosed and overtreated for rare conditions, while underdiagnosed and undertreated for common conditions. And, charged out the yin-yang for it both ways.
This may sound harsh, but I don’t sympathise with them either. With each petition, a reason is given why the screening age will not be reduced or why annual screening will not become the norm. Do they even bl**dy read the responses for themselves or even try bothering to understand that it’s science-based and not some right-wing conspiracy to kill women.
I feel these women – and the MPs who support them – are dangerous.
I worry one day that more MPs in the House of Commons WILL listen to these deranged loons and implement something like this. How easy would it go from being “optional” to “mandatory”?
Reproductive rights are on the decline in certain parts of Europe and the US. Introducing something that enables medical professionals to better monitor or “control” female sexual activity is dangerous. It is a threat to all our rights.
As well as the invasive nature if screening and its’ false positive and negative rate, surveillance (particularly of a sexual organ) is a big reason why I am a strong advocate of informed choice for screening.
So, although I’m being harsh, I despise these women who cannot be bothered to question the science before blindly campaigning for something so dangerous to become law. It is a step away from the Handmaid’s tale. F’ing morons.
I think the message needs to get out there that actually a lot of women simply don’t want this test and it’s a lost cause. They think they speak for all women when they run these campaigns and petitions, and think they will get a wave of support from women’s groups. On social media I try to put the point across that actually a lot of women have looked at the evidence and decided not to screen. Politicians keep taking up these causes thinking it’ll be a vote winner for them. I think that after all these fruitless campaigns the realisation is dawning on them that none of it works. If we keep challenging them wherever they post I think they will realise substantial numbers of women don’t want this. I once challenged a local politician in my area, and put the case across that women are not stupid, but have looked at the evidence and decided not to screen. I think he was quite taken aback. He’s left politics now.
It’s a horribly oppressive system and Beth, as you know, the pressure on women in the US to have GYN exams is relentless. It just never stops. I posted before about a consult for my high blood pressure turning into an inquisition about why I wasn’t have GYN exams. You posted about experiencing pressure to have one during an appointment with respect to your type 2 diabetes. Ironically, both of these chronic conditions, high blood pressure and diabetes, are major risk factors for cardiovascular disease – which is the # 1 killer of women. But that’s not what they’re thinking about. They’re thinking that we’re female, and therefore obligated to climb into the stirrups and subject ourselves to invasive exams on demand.
When your doctor hassles you like that, wouldn’t it be fitting to ask him/her how their sex life is going? Then ask how much same person finds you attractive?
Finally declare that usually you’re asked out to dinner a couple times before being asked to get naked.
I’d love to see their reaction.
Yeah, I thought about asking for dinner and a movie xseveral before the proposition of intimate touching came about. Also, as I didn’t seek HIM out to penetrate me, immediate sex is usually accompanied by paying the woman something. As he was charging ME, to state (in front of hubby) that he keeps me sexually satisfied, and I don’t feel the need to hire a professional gigalo to take care of things. Yes, one problem with sex workers is how persistent they can be to get those to get their services – one reason that it’s illegal in most places.
Call him “young man” while I’m about it.
No, didn’t want to go there outside of fantasy.
Yes, indeed. The pressure to have a GYN exam is relentless. Especially in these days when they’re warning how the medical system is (going to be) overwhelmed by Covid patients, they’re STILL pushing these %%%% exams, and for what purpose? Women can’t even get the follow-on even-more invasive exams, tests, and procedures. There’s still enough medical care available to do these exams. Could it be that it’s…. recreational?
They’re pushing this test in spite of the fact that it kills just over 4,000 women per year, heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes (directly) kill a great many more, and discouraging women from getting any treatment for them. It’s been observed that women are not-infrequently turned away from the emergency department mid-heart attack.
It’s ritualistic and likely recreational in some cases, but I think the main reason is that these exams and their follow-ups bring in a great deal of money. Especially today in the US with many medical practices being owned by large hospital systems. These systems are actually corporations and want to maximize profits where ever possible – and what better opportunity than in women’s health, with so many having bought into the brainwashing that these exams are essential? Colonoscopies also bring in large profits, but I don’t believe they push as hard when it comes to those because they’re not just for women – and men’s bodily autonomy is always respected far more than ours.
My husband has had colonscopies pushed at him at least as hard as pelvic exams are on me.
The thing is, right now, although they’re complaining that hospitals are filled to capacity, they are also complaining that they’re going broke because they cannot do these “routine” procedures – the big ones being colonscopies, mamography, LEEP, and colposcopy. How much IS the markup on these things???
They’re still pushing the PAP tests, although those follow-on procedures are unavailable. As few people know how prone to error PAP tests are, if women get an abnormal one, she will likely feel that she’s being doomed to certain death because she’ll have to wait a few months to get the follow-on test.
What’s the point of the pap test if there’s nothing different that can or will be done no matter the results? My years in quality assurance states that if you are unable or unwilling to make a change depending on a test result, you’re wasting time and money doing that test. Oh yeah, I know the answer: Medicine is DIFFERENT! How, exactly? Don’t the same principles of tests and results and statistics apply?
Many ladies who have posted on the site, have mentioned that the attitude of many doctors is of being aloof,unapproachable, dismissive, disrespectful, all of which in other professions would be unacceptable. Sadly in medical settings this would appear to be the norm, Doctors it would seem have the notion that their self importance , arrogance and egotistical attitude is the road to take, this view may seem to be a little harsh , but in the news yesterday a surgeon called Simon bramhall it was revealed is to face further charges in relation to incidents in which he autographed internal organs of his patients with a piece of equipment called an argon beam coagulator ( a type of laser) this came to light when a follow up operation by another surgeon to find out the cause of an infection, which was deemed to be caused by the initials burnt into the liver , an inquiry went underway, resulting in Bramhall resigning, it also led to a court case where he was fined £10,000 and told to complete 120 hours of community service. He is now currently working as an NHS consultant in Herefordshire, it was determined by the GMC that because of his court conviction and public awareness of the case that their initial “punishment”of 5 months suspension would be reviewed, as during the court case it was revealed this was not an isolated instance by Bramhall . To me this is a shocking revelation and so deserving of our contempt and mistrust , and if you thought that this is an isolated incident you would be sadly mistaken.
( check out two more of these despicable creatures dr Allan zarkin and dr Michael guiler ) and how many more that have no idea that they have been autographed , once they have been stitched up, mistrust seems to me to be well deserved.
Hugs Jules xx.
This is the kind of thing that makes me furious. I’ve had plenty of experience dealing with authorities (companies, governments, whatever) who like to treat everything you tell them as a lie or nothing to worry about. It’s why horriffic things like this keep happening and keep on going.
And if doctors are somnehow held to account, the punishment or deterent they get is so low, I don’t know whay they bothered.
I made a complaint here about a cardiologist who said he wouldn’t see me unless I let him do a breast exam. I said no breast exam, I’m not coming to see you about a breast complaint, obviously! He said, I’m not seeing you then. They said he can ask for whatever he wants, as long as he sees fit to ask for it. If that doesn’t tell you that doctors are allowed to treat women badly, I don’t know what does. How many other women went to him and felt humiliated or belittled when he forced them to accept a breast exam?
We see this kind of thing over and over. Doctors can mistreat women (and men) however they want, but its takes years of ramming your head against a brick wall with the authorities and the government to get anything done about it, if you ever can.
We’ve seen so many cases of doctors who are sadistic, incompetent, butchers with what they do to women, and despite scores of women making complaints, they were all dismissed and told to shut up, don’t cause a fuss.
I think in the ‘Butcher of Bega’ case, despite 35 women providing first-hand evidence of what he did, it took decades for anyone in authority to stop him – because, you know, the word of women means nothing. The health authorities here have a shocking record of moving doctors around who assault or mutilate women, to a different hospital, to try and avoid dealing with it.
So glad you stuck to your guns and denied that pervert his little bit of pleasure, unfortunately not all women have the conviction to do this and give in to pressure and demands. And until more women call them out on their demands sadly this will continue,women’s exams have a highly sexual nature to them and this will undoubtedly draw in unsavoury characters into the profession, so if nobody else will protect us it is down to ourselves.
Hugs Jules x
Hi ladies! New post on the PHE screening blog, Angela Raffle on improvements to screening and how the death rate from CC did not miraculously go down after high numbers were screened( or bullied into it) and how it was a bit like intervening in healthy ppls lives when they weren’t sick?
I’ve just read it and am a bit confused. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the overall gist but in one breath she’s saying that there have been tremendous improvements to the programme but on the other that attempts to distort the science and oversell the benefits without addressing the harms remain ever present. I certainly haven’t seen any improvement. Ever since I was 20, I’ve been pressured at more or less every GP appointment to not be silly and ‘just do it’. The only improvement I’ve seen is the change to the title of the ‘Helping you decide booklet’ and the addition of one tiny line at the end about overtreatment and risks to pregnancy. I hope now they’ve taken out the line ‘it’s best to have the test’ but it was in there until very recently. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the point she is making though.
Screening – and particularly these programmes – involve too many vested interests, and the idea of ‘catching it early’ has almost become a religious belief. Any medic who criticises these programmes is risking their reputation and potentially their career.
For instance, Michael Baum, the breast cancer expert, was treated like a heretic when he expressed concerns about breast screening and the manner in which women were being coerced into it.
Angela Raffle has always had doubts about the benefits of screening, so my guess here is that she’s simply protecting herself from being attacked by the pro-screening lobby.
There have been many improvements over the years, but only in the clinical sense. And it’s not really something to be bragged about, since the test and the programme never were of such a poor standard in the first place.
So I think Angela is having to tread very carefully here, and while this may not seem very helpful, I think it’s far better to have a quiet dissenter working in the medical field than have her condemn the programme outright and be ostracised for it. Would be all too easy, then, for her work to be dismissed by those vested interests.
I wonder if Angela Raffle was asked to write the screening blog because of this petition which was recently debated in UK parliament? Yep, those politicians are still representing misinformed members of the public who’ve experienced the loss of a family member, entirely due, they believe, to not enough screening. These people just don’t get it, and neither do the politicians. When cornered that not all women may want this screening, these campaigners usually back down, and say they didn’t mean all women had to, but the wording in their campaigns always uses those words, “need” “must” “should”. And also, what is it about them wanting a law? Why should it be a law to have annual screening, or any screening at all for that matter? PHE must support Angela Raffle in what she says, and make it much clearer that screening has limited effectiveness, but they’re still dishing out all that whitewashing about it saving 5,000 lives, and a missed smear test could cost you your life. It is these pro-screening bodies which cause families so much distress by their dishonesty about the test.
My opinion is that Angela Raffle didn’t write this title. It doesn’t match or give a true flavour of the body of the text. She was asked to write for them and wrote the balanced article she did, but PHE Screening have sensationalised it with their own headlines in a journalistic style. I’ve noticed this before with PHE’s flagship paper by Peto entitled “How the UK Cervical Screening Programme has prevented an epidemic of cervical cancer in the UK”. This was the paper which claimed 5,000 lives are saved every year and is widely quoted by the programme. If you read the paper it clearly says it is all pure speculation, and the paper was widely criticised by others. I think these authors get asked to write a paper to justify government policy. They write an honest account, take the money, but it’s spun by government departments to push policy through.
It makes interesting reading , you simply cannot find fault with anything she says , I think the difference between dr A . Raffle and the majority in the profession is that she has integrity, a trait often lacking in women’s care by most.
Thank you for sharing and for the explanation. Yes, it has become like a religion and I have seen Margaret McCartney, Michael Baum and Angela Raffles dismissed as ‘dangerous extremists’ by screening fanatics, which is somewhat ironic. And, I know from bitter experience that the medical field also contains very militant screening advocates – hardly surprising due to the financial incentives. But also, I think a lot of people in the medical field are not educated on the risks and benefits of screening either, nor familiarised with the concept of informed choice and genuinely believe that they are acting the best interests of the patient. I’ve spoken to nurses who have said they are just taught how to carry it out and about the benefits of early detection – and that’s it.
Gem, I think this is a contributary factor in keeping women so ignorant about this test. The whole thing carefully designed so women never have any contact with a knowledgeable person, who might tell them the truth. All this rubbish about how they are always available chat about your doubts and concerns, but really you will never come into contact with anyone who has anything but the most simplistic knowledge of how it all works. And they call that “informed consent”!
I think a lot of them enjoy the control too, even female healthcare practitioners.
I hear of condescending and judgemental attitudes to female patients in particular, across the healthcare spectrum, but particularly in reproductive healthcare, such as maternity and postnatal services. How many women are told to “pull themselves together” after a muscarriage or stillbirth, or have their postnatal depression dismissed?
Reminds me of the attitudes of the nuns in the Magdalene Sisters film.
Gem your comments struck a chord with me, my daughter was recently “invited” for her 1 st smear, she was 25 in May but a move to Wales and a new practice and then she changed practice again so she fell through the cracks! Anyway she decided not to go, and has just been re “invited “….welcome to the rest of her life…..!! Unless she opts out I guess…
Hi kat, If your Girl is anything like you, I think they may have more luck selling sand to the Arabs
Love Annette ( Helper) x.
Thanks Annette! She’ll definitely be ruder than me if ever she goes to discuss, say, her thyroid. And her doctor begins to chat about smears and her lack of one….!!
When they conduct polls, and research why uptake of the target population falls short in screening it always mentions black and ethnic minority groups the younger generation or females that were previously compliant but now decline, it could be that the information about the test is actually “getting out”I really think they are on the ropes now and will only have self testing to fall back on so now expect a push in that direction to keep themselves in a job, younger woman today are far more savvy than previous generations and less likely to fall for the crap they dish out. Viva la revolution.
Love Annette xx.
Using minorities as propaganda cannon fodder isn’t new. As if what happens to them spells out life for the rest of us? Shouldn’t but often does.
Years ago where we live low income health clinics would always claim to have cut CC 75%… Blah blah.
Funny but if there were such an epidemic it would have been the leading bleeding story on 5pm news.
Young women are taught by liberal institutions to question everything religious or conservative. Yet something so important like the fake facts on CC and pap are always ignored.
Until we have an unconditional surrender re pap our jobs will never end. Educate, question, publicize what a 50% efficacy test leads to.
Needless colposcopy, pain, and mutilating LEEP’s etc.
I’ve been looking for anything that may be of interest to us, and came across a report published on 26 nov 2020 by the national official statistics uk ,in 2018-19 females referred to colposcopy totalled
182,304 , this figure rises 5.1% to
191,563 in 2019-20 . During the exam it was determined that45% needed no intervention a number that amounted to 86,203, the remainder 105,359 underwent treatments such as biopsy, cone biopsy, LEEP, and cold knife incision, using their inflated figure of 5,000 lives saved every year , why did they treat the other 100,000,for practice maybe, if this isn’t over treatment i don’t know what is.
Hugs Jules x.
My gosh excellent data Jules!!
I’ve said pap is 50% efficacy. This shows a correlation.
5000 lives saved of nearly 200k scraped and chomped (biopsy colposcopy).
That’s 2%; right?
That is just bizarre.
So, a whopping 55% received further “treatment”?
That is astonishing!
Astonishing is a good descriptive word, but myself I would have used the word frightening.
Don’t forget that by using their figure of 5,000 it throws everything out, by using a more realistic number of 3,200 ( another number used by some of them ) and using the number given by national statistics, the actual % is 3.038.
I think that they give varying figures to cause confusion and make it more difficult for women to understand and hope they get away with it. (But not this f—-ing time ).
Hugs Jules x.
We keep a stack of 15 sheets of paper re bad woman care stories which we share with others.
Included are Trovagene results, the disclosure that pap has shit accuracy, LEEP long term complications, problems with surgery in teaching hospitals, and this data will be included.
Always fun to see doctors and nurses choke on their words trying to debunk.
Hi cat & mouse,
I’ve no doubt, they would suddenly become very busy and not have the time to discuss it there and then, but it would be nice to see the expression on their faces when you hit them with the stats.
Hugs Jules x.
I’ve been abandoned tonight as helper has gone over to a friend from work to help her organise her upcoming wedding ( god help her).so being left to my own devices I’ve been doing a little more digging and came across a report on cervical cancer by cancer research uk, which was broadcast by itv news on 22 jan 2020, the charity warned of a steep rise in cervical cancer in the age group of 25-29 year olds and stated that there had been a 54% rise in cases ( holy shit I’m booking my smear first thing Monday morning) this figure is absolutely staggering so I decided to look into it, and this is a tactic we use at work sometimes, when the figures you need just don’t work, we change the number to a percentage to make it work in our favour to make it look higher or lower, the 54% mentioned is frightening to some, who will no doubt rush to the nearest doctor , but hold on let’s just take a minute and look at the actual figures and comparison, they forgot to mention they are going back to the years 2004-2006 and then fast forwarding to 2015-2017 .
In 2004 -2006 instances were 12 per 100,000, and in 2015 – 2017 instances were 18.5 per 100,000, this frightening 54% increase
equates to just an additional 6.5 per 100,000, so upon reflection , I don’t think bother booking Monday .
Hugs Jules x.
The dates 2004-2006 are incorrect and should be changed to 2018-2019 , in the earlier posting sorry about that. The years 2004 and2006 are from a different part of the study, but the figures and percentages are correct.
Hugs Jules x.
What should one do to educate their daughters? Has anyone had good experiences in educating their girls about these issues?
I have a Chinese birth chart which lets me avoid having girls, but I don’t want to do that.
What worked for us , was that mom was always open and honest with us whatever questions we asked, this led to trust and we eventually became comfortable asking her just about anything knowing she would only try to help or advise.
Hugs Jules x.
I think you may have to sit down for this one girls, looking at the numbers in my last comment , I thought they looked shockingly high so I tried to find a comparison between other countries to see if it was just the uk, and came across a report in the journal of clinical oncology ( sorry no date) under the title multiple biopsies and detection of cervical cancer precursors at colposcopy. In the introduction they say a singular biopsy during the colposcopy could miss between 30 and 50 % of disease, so they recommend taking up to 4 biopsy samples including from normal looking tissue , right so now we get to the figures they say that approximately 14,400 women will be diagnosed with cervical cancer in the USA per year and of that number 4,300 will prove fatal , women are referred to colposcopy after an abnormal smear and the approximate referral number
( their estimate) 3 MILLION. How freaking inaccurate are the smears over there, ladies of the USA for you’re own safety stay away from these people.
Hugs jules x.
Just came across this excellent letter from Dr. Margaret McCartney, and the predictable response, which completely overlooks the fact that women are simply not equipped to make informed choices. Of course women want to attend (in spite of the fact that many struggle with the awful nature of the procedure) when the public health messaging and info from their GP is that ‘it’s a no brainer that can save your life and you’d be stupid to pass it up’! https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42806424_Letters_to_the_editor_Some_women_may_not_want_cervical_screening
I gritted my teeth and did it as a younger woman, in spite of how traumatising it was, because my GP insisted on it, shamed me, and put the fear of god into me. It pains me to this very day that I was bullied and harassed into that position, presumably whilst paying for her holiday via the incentive payment she would have received.
Did anyone see this today? (Sydney, Australia). Seriously!
Another missed opportunity to explain that screening is for people with no symptoms, and that for people who have symptoms which could be cancer, an appointment with a doctor and specialist referral is still available in the usual timescales. A clear description of the symptoms of breast cancer would also help, but that’s all missing from this article, which just tells women they’ll drop dead without screening. Time they treated women like adults and informed them properly.
Case in point of the lack of informed consent for cervical screening – around the 3.45 point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HioY2wsPGD0 “You need a smear. Sorry, but it’s best to have one”.
That’s the problem with the computerised system. Go to a GP and up it pops on your personalised record. He wouldn’t have known or recommended it had it not popped up on the screen. Unfortunately, women know little about how the system works or how to stop it. Doesn’t he mean it’s best for him, as he’s the one getting the incentive payment? Once I’d filled out the form to get off the system in 2003, I never once had a GP ask me about it, nor ask why I hadn’t had one in years. Clearly a message pops up whenever the record is accessed for any other purpose. The old NHS cervical screening recall system is being replaced with an entirely new system this autumn so it will be interesting to see how this new surveillance system abuses our human rights this time.
Yes Ada, that computerised system is a bugger. Go to the GP about anything and you’ll be harassed and browbeaten often at the expense of talking about the issues you went there with in the first place. I didn’t know they were changing the system but I have no doubt it will be for the same ends.
I opted out in 2015 and was harassed a couple times after that about smear tests, I haven’t been asked since and I haven’t had a letter from surgery reminding me I am opted out and would I like to reconsider as some surgeries do! My last ever smear would be in 2025 when I’ll be 61! I hope this new system doesn’t see me harassed again…
I watched the clip, that poor woman’s body language was quite definitely “I don’t want a smear thank you it’s been 5 years! Doctors saying you need every 3 years make appt on way out was beyond disgusting! She may have verrucas on her feet but hey she’s just a vagina!
It’s being changed to a new system end of October, but in spite of all the info here, there’s nothing about personal choice, only a choice to defer so they can endlessly pester you.
I thought the way that doctor in the youtube clip spoke to the woman was appalling. His whole manner implied it wasn’t really a choice. I am disgusted they are still speaking to women like that. It just shows old habits have not gone away. That woman should complain but no doubt she won’t. No doctor would get away with that anymore with me.
I hope everyone here is ok. I’ve not posted for a while but keep up to date with the comments.
I seem to remember on phe blog a while back, an article where the screening service talk about women removing themselves from screening and say lots do by not responding to their “invitations “ and by not booking appointments, wishful thinking with the computer records and doctors browbeating women at appointments for verrucas….
Can a woman be refused life insurance for not having pap tests on her medical records? I know some insurance policy requires medical tests or medical reports. Does it include cancer screening?
I’ve not experienced this.
Hi ladies, That gp urging that women to get a smear when she went in for a verruca is horrid,what she ought to said was I’m so glad you mentioned that, it has just reminded me to ask for an opt out form, now go fetch one bitch.
Love Annette x.
I know, his attitude is so awful. Patronising, coercive, rude and dismissive.
Hi ladies, After watching that episode of gp’s behind closed doors it seems the lady got off quite lightly, you can’t help thinking if she had been about 25-26 blond with legs up to her armpits that the “encouragement”would have been a little more persuasive, or it may of been because the consult had a tv crew there and the doc didn’t want to show what it’s really like when you get cornered and coercion happens in a exam room.
Love Annette x.
Helper showed this to me when she got in from work tonight, how the hell he got to a smear test via a verucca
( I know it was the screen prompt) but I nearly wet myself laughing they really are detestable, it’s a wonder he didn’t go into a scientific rant about how a verucca is part of the wart family and that because of that she must have hpv so it’s imperative she drops her pants and consents to a smear there and then or she could die before she makes it home, if it wasn’t so serious and cruel it would be hilarious .
Hugs Jules x.
Jules, I laughed at your comment but seriously too, it’s a wonder he DIDNT say that they will try anything! I have been harassed about smears during a migraine meds review.. maybe stray cancer cells are causing headaches?!
Australia here – GPs always ask new patients when their last pap was.
Can women refuse to answer? i.e. “I decline to answer that question”.
I don’t want to give them any room to coerce me.
Unless the problem you are there for is connected to your periods you are perfectly within your rights to decline any questions or treatment offered this is you’re legal right.
Hugs Jules x.
Jules, a doctor should never push a symptomatic patient into having a Pap test even if their issues are related to their reproductive organs. The test is too inaccurate to be used as a diagnostic tool. Any doctor who still insists on a Pap to ‘rule out cancer’ is either woefully ignorant as to the limitations of the test, or is simply chasing targets. Here in the UK there is a clinical pathway for investigating reproductive symptoms, a Pap is not recommended – it’s shocking that so many within the medical profession are still not following these guidelines.
And Fiona, yes, I would refuse to answer – screening is not mandatory, I believe you can opt out of the programme in Australia, as I’ve done here in the UK . Your GP has no right to demand information on your screening history. Amazing how dictatorial the so-called ‘caring’ profession becomes when financial incentives are involved – it seems testing an under-screened woman earns them $35 (per test).
Hey Kate, thanks! And Jules.
I did feel a little ?? with Jules’ comment, but all cleared up now.
Funnily enough, I actually work in health, but on the workforce management side, so nowadays meeting GPs don’t faze me as much.
There was only ever one time when I was concerned about a physical cut/sensitivity there that I needed to see a female GP about, and she was patient-centered, and I healed later in time. I did lie about having had a pap though lol – “oh yes, it was 12 months ago”, even though I also knew my cut had nothing to do with cancer. Another time turned out to be thrush, I was young at 18, and it was my first ever GP visit as an adult, and I wasn’t chased about a pap at all.
There was another (amongst a few) who had harrassed me a hell of a lot, and I complained about her, alongside the others. She did give me a tip – some demographics e.g. Middle Eastern do not tend to do this test (and the western docs are pushing for it sigh). So nowadays I visit GPs in my local area of Western Sydney. Joy! One of them had actually said the sensible (shock) thing: “If you don’t want it, don’t have it”.
Sorry if I confused you, what I ment to say was you may have to give some personal info to be helped, but no way was I condoning any invasive exam, sorry for any misunderstanding
Hugs Jules x.
Thanks, Jules. Noted – no worries at all! xx
Hi ladies, Sad news I’m afraid
Sarah Harding of girls aloud has passed away from breast cancer today, let’s hope they leave the poor girl to rest in peace and the charities don’t try to cash in on her, bringing her into every fund raising opportunity they can.
I can’t believe I’ve actually missed this, as I always keep an eye out for anything new, but this seems to of flashed past the old radar undetected this was announced on sky news on Monday 26 July ,from the end of July two types of contraceptive pill will be available to buy over the counter one is lovima 75 mg , the other Hana 75 mg ., both without prescription although the pharmacist will ask a couple of questions such as if you are on any other meds etc,and it’s the same process if you order online, the cost is approximately £22.00 for 3 months supply, I’ve double checked and they are being made widely available ie boots, Asda , Lloyds Tesco, chemists bloody everywhere, this simply has to put another nail in the coffin for smears, as the age old argument of “I can’t prescribe your pills without a Pap test” has just gone completely out of the window and former victims will just say well fuck you ill just go and buy some, looks like a new day is dawning and about time to it’s only 40-50years late
Hugs Jules x.
Call it whatever you like, some would describe it as a sixth sense, others a women’s intuition, it could even be a mixture of both , but when something doesn’t seem right to me, it bugs me till I figure it out. The new information that the mini pill is now available on-line or over the counter and a far greater number of female medical students opting to become gynocologists and oncologists with fewer males taking up this option because of female patients preference of gender for intimate exams and care, the enforcement of chaperones, and the fact that they have had to let it be known about informed choice, all spell out that this could be the decline of the male in this profession, the only ones who won’t want to relinquish “ their power” will be the die hard perverts who desperately need their fix of pussy, they may have won some battles but we are winning the war, so ladies please take a bow this is partially down to you and the other groups that have made a dedicated and committed effort to end this injustice.
Hugs , love and great admiration xx.
Hi ladies, Saw the first advert for the Hana mini pill on the tv today, absolutely brill, and seeing that upto one million four hundred thousand women in the uk take it, how many will now feel a higher level of comfort and confidence from coercion in the doctors room. Love Annette xx.
Ugh, who’s seen the latest Jo’s Trust initiative to facilitate time off to attend screening and ‘encourage conversations about gynaecological health in the workplace’. I’ve had that happen before, women interrogating each other about smear tests in the staff room and deriding the ‘stupid’ women who don’t get it done. Supported wholeheartedly by the RCOG. In some better news, at least that awful man seems to have gone quieter and has practically zero engagement with his social media.
How dare they?!
I don’t want to discuss anything like that or have to justify my decisions for not attending (although I bl**dy will) in front of male colleagues!!
Why do these health organisations and feminazis encourage us to discuss everything??
I honestly don’t give a damn.
I think JT have completely lost their minds sharing and endorsing this article, which conflates cervical with vaginal cancer (and seemingly all of the other gynaecological cancers), abnormal cells with cancer, implies a hereditary cause for cervical cancer and advocates for lowering the age of screening. Obviously I feel for the woman and her mother, but this article is appallingly written and full of misinformation. I guess perhaps the new CEO seems like she’s happy to go down the misinformation and scaremongering route, given that her maiden speech included her talking about how she had had a ‘near miss’ with cervical cancer because she had some cell changes. Is there no ethical requirement for charities to promote fact-based information?! I suppose not, given the ‘charity’ that has recently set up which has as its stated aim to lower the screening age – against all medical evidence and recommendations. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9993793/Love-Island-star-Shannon-Singh-reveals-checked-THREE-times-cancer.html
I stand corrected on the conflation between cervical and vaginal cancer. On a third reading, I got the point they were making. It’s just not very clearly written and could cause a lot of confusion. However, there is no excuse for posting this without any kind of explanation of why the age is 25 and the harms that can result from screening in the younger demographic.
The What If’ers are back again. Goosestepping with the You Never Knowers, sponsored by the Do Gooders Group.
All this debate could and would end quickly, if, freedoms and free markets were respected. Yes, freedom of choice.
End pap scrape crap. Offer the Delphi Screener and or convince Trovagene to once again screen urine for hpv.
These tearjerker sagas have one purpose which they do accomplish well.
Stoking up the fear mongers.
Gem left a comment , but as replies are moderated I doubt it’ll get through! If she’s had 3 treatments already she’s following the late Ms Goody who had her first cells burnt off at 15 or 16….
Nope, they seem to have censored it! No surprises there. God forbid anyone should deviate from the standard hysteria. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next step is to call for vaginal biopsies if HPV is found. Like I’ve said, I have every sympathy for this woman and her mum, but this is very irresponsible journalism. Well, it’s probably written by someone who hasn’t got a clue about the risks of screening in general and especially in younger women. And why would they? It’s not like leading cervical cancer charities or the medical profession make that clear and promote informed consent.
I’ve just commented as well but it’s awaiting moderation ie. probably won’t get through.
I wrote “This article is a garbled mess, she’s not even clear about which gynae cancer it was. Where’s her evidence for lowering the age? Absolutely nuts anyone can speak about their alleged experience and never gets picked up on the facts.”
We’ll never know the other factors involved. How did it get spread?
Diet, genetic or induced inflammation, or if it’s one wrong diagnosis gone haywire.
And how if it’s legit did the medical experts allow it “mushroom” out of control.
Well said Caroline!! 😸😸
This is from the ‘time to test initiative’, some suggested measures to implement:
Put up posters which we have provided in the Google drive
• Hold an awareness session about cervical screening, or speak about it in a
• Join in with our campaign weeks – Cervical Cancer Prevention Week in
January, and Cervical Screening Awareness Week in June. We will be in
touch nearer the time
• Take part in Steps for Jo’s as a staff team
• Host events with your staff
• Donate proceeds from a selected product
i.e. your whole work culture could essentially be based around cervical screening! There are even logos to download to put on emails etc. I can’t imagine how this would feel for anyone who doesn’t wish to have the test, finds the test and discussions thereof upsetting or triggering, or perhaps has had the screening and suffered trauma/complications due to lletz or went on to develop cc anyway etc. etc. to be confronted with this constantly and the judgemental discussion that would doubtless follow. I’d certainly struggle with it. It’s like being in a cult! I remember the tiny flowery knickers that kept on finding their way into my workplace’s toilets telling women to just get over themselves and get it done because ‘they’ve seen it all before’ (it was all I could do not to rip them down and stamp on them!). And, the conversations in the staffroom of women sharing triggering war stories of awful screening experiences, followed, paradoxically, by castigating ‘stupid’ women who neglect themselves and risk leaving their children motherless. I’m not against sending out an email to staff letting them know they will be granted time off for screening should they wish to take it up, but I think it should stop there. Ordinarily, I’d say I wouldn’t be against a one-off donation collection or event for those who wish to participate, but not for this organisation.
Omg an AWARENESS campaign what a BRILLIANT idea!!! Not as if it’s been tried before…
Seriously Gem you’re spot on! It’s not as if workplaces promote cholesterol testing or anything but cervical cancer is a whole new ballgame!
In our place. A school, we would be expected to attend a routine smear in our own time or holidays, we wouldn’t be granted it off in term unless it was a colposcopy or actually treatment! We get time off for mammograms coz that’s pre booked! I think women are really judged up of smears right left and centre…..
I fully support employees being able to take time for health appointments whatever they are but I don’t believe time off is a true barrier to attending smears. Not for most anyway.
If people are that bothered they’ll generally find a way to do something. Take leave, take a sick day, make up a story, go before work etc. I completely believe these are excuses people give in surveys. There’s this odd that big brother’s watching them and they’ll be some bizarre recourse for saying you don’t want to go.
The fact is, some women don’t make time for them because deep down they don’t want to go!
They must be really worried about the screening figures if they are resorting to this.
I can’t be asked with woman-to-woman tittle tattle in the office as it is. This is pushing things too far.
What they are doing is actively trying desperately to seek out the non-screeners or “defaulters” by using compliant women to as a shaming tactic.
This is another form of surveillance, getting other women to seek us out, because they have obviously failed to do so.
I don’t welcome this intrusion into my workspace. I also find the creeping authoritarianism of this, potentially dangerous.
Many women now work from home, and many have been told to continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
I expect most women will just humour their colleagues, change the subject or tell them to mind their own business, in which case it might cause a lot of clusterf***s.
I thought you were talking about the vaccine. Same thing going on.
Hi ladies, This is not too dissimilar to the Salem witch trials of 1692, I hope I don’t get any pressure to screen off work colleagues or I will have to find my cauldron and potions out and put the evil eye on them. Or I could just go to the Human Resources rep and claim harassment or victimisation by them either is fine by me. Love to all.
Thanks Anon!! I’m not HR but I am a trades Union Officer… Maybe I can get my thinking cap on….
New post over on PHE blog, HPValidate, where some venues will offer women the chance to self test for HPV before they go on to have the speculum smear!!
Why are they so desperate to hold on to the speculum?? 🤔🥴
Do you REALLY have to ask why a misogynistic profession wants to access women’s vaginas???
It was supposed to be a sarcastic/ tongue-in-cheek comment.
Oh, I was sure that it was when you started. I figured it wouldn’t hurt to point out just why it is they want that speculum and all girlz to “open wide” for it.
Interestingly, my spell checker noted “speculum” as a misspelling – and it offered “speculate” as a correction. Maybe it’s smarter than I think!
Good to hear they’ve been inundated with requests to take part in this study, but how many studies do they need to do to implement self-testing when it’s been around for years? They must be very worried that COVID has meant they’re losing control of the herd. Let’s hope that many women will start to question the speculum test, when they reslise how simple and non-invasive it could have been all these years.
I hope so too, but judging by the hysterical reaction when the self test pilot programme was introduced, I think there’ll still be masses of women clamouring for the traditional invasive method!
Just took a look at the kind of resources being used in schools. The main aims are to ‘make young people aware of the importance of the test’. Nothing regarding informed consent, bodily autonomy, risks vs benefits and nothing on the likelihood of developing cc except to say ‘cervical cancer is a common cancer’. If I had a daughter and found out these types of resources had been used, I would absolutely complain.
I challenged a teacher on this once, Gem, who had boasted online that she had been teaching her class that they all had to attend. I said that if I had been a parent of one of her class I would’ve complained. I got a stroppy reply until I showed her the maths involved of false positives and overtreatment rates and suggested she include these as part of her maths teaching. No reply.
Oh, actually there are two seconds devoted to the possibility of ‘false positives’ but no stats to show how common they are, nor anything about the implications of said false positives – and also the phrasing ‘these are things to bear in mind WHEN HAVING the test’, not ‘when making your decision about having the test’.
Oh actually, they do devote 2 seconds to mentioning the possibility of a false positive, but nothing about the implications of it and they also phrase it as ‘something to bear in mind WHEN HAVING the test’, not something to bear in mind when making your decision about having the test.
Anybody tell them pap is only 50% effective? What’s their reaction to that?
Ada, I’m sure she didn’t! In my experience, people either double down, get abusive and call me an extremist, or go awfully quiet and try to change the subject when I present them with facts that challenge the established narrative. I hate the insidious creep of anti-bodily autonomy groupthink into all of our institutions. I work in education and once had to dissuade the student wellbeing team from saying that smear tests were ‘required’. They genuinely thought they were doing the right thing in trying to persuade young women that they were mandatory in order to get them to attend.
It’s terrible that these individuals think they have these automatic rights to force women into this test. They are often quite taken aback when you point out that it is a criminal offence to force a medical procedure onto a patient without their consent. We still have a way to go. Thank you for sticking your neck out at work. It takes courage. Women are so brainwashed we still have a long way to go, but I think that little by little the evidence will sink in and the tiny seed of evidence will begin to make them think.
Thank you Ada. You’re right, it isn’t easy. One woman responded by saying ‘people who don’t go are stupid and ignorant, end of’ so I didn’t affect any radical change, but at least we didn’t coerce anyone into it that year!
Actually, Gem, I take issue with the phrase “cervical cancer is a common cancer”.
“A correct definition for rare cancer does not exist. In European nations, orphan diseases are often designated as those with a frequency of <50/100,000 per year….In the United States, the Orphan Drug Act described orphan diseases as those affecting <200,000 persons.,,, A study of rare tumours in the US used the definition of <15 incident cases per 100,000 annually, roughly corresponding in the US to 40,000 new cases annually or fewer4. To support the progress of international comprehensive clinical trials for those diagnosed with rare tumours, IRCI has generally defined rare cancers as a prevalence of <2/100,000."
According to the National Cancer Institute, in the US, the rate of death from cervical cancer hovers around 2/100,000 – or the numbers diagnosed is just under 9/100,000
So, as the CDC also reports around 14,000 diagnosed cases of cervical cancer per year, it would (?should?) qualify as an "orphan disease" according to the US Orphan Drug Act, and as a rare tumor according to the above. It hardly is a "common cancer"!
Now, if you look at https://www.macmillan.org.uk/cancer-information-and-support/rare-cancers at the list of rare cancers and discussion of them, about 1/4 of the way down is a graph showing where rare cancers appear (as an aggregate, rare cancers are quite frequent – making up an aggregate of about 20% of all UK cancers), showing 18% of these rare cancers are of the female reproductive system. They are not all of the cervix, and all cervical cancer is not diagnosable via a pap test.
I take issue with it too Beth! That was my point – that they throw that in there unsubstantiated as the sole piece of information about prevalence as a means to entice/coerce.
Ah, but if you listen to the scaremongering, CC is “very common” and “used to be the leading cause of death”. Ummmm, no. In 1900, the leading cause of death was tuberculosis, just as it was for men. In 2000, it was heart disease, just as it was for men. It’s never been even in the top 10 causes of cancer deaths since they’ve been recording such things.
If the consent is based on deceit, it is not consent. Misinformation is not informed.
Teachers giving out medical advice?
That must be a laugh, I remember their painful attempts of sex education when I was at school, most of the girls came out of those classes completely confused or convinced they were going to end up with an std , if they even kissed a boy. It was probably a little too late for me as mom had explained everything to me a year earlier, which is what I intend to do if I ever have girl , I will be the one to educate her about the female development , sex education and the FACTS about smear testing, if she opts in or out, that will be her decision, I feel I would have done my bit by giving her truthful and honest information, something she would be unlikely to get elsewhere
Hugs Jules x.
Now that’s proactive parenting.
Our advice included that plus hand washing before fooling around and no uncircumcised penis.
We talked to our kids together so they got both views about dating, sex,and love.
I’ll never rely on brainwashed adults who probably know nothing about sex other than what they read.
Abuse begets abuse. Anywhere.
Uncircumcised penis is okay too so long as you wash it before fooling around and put a condom on it. Much of the research involving CC and uncircumcised penises was done in areas without good hygiene facilities.
Circumcision without informed consent is also abuse.
I agree. However how many men practice good penis hygiene? There’s no formal education for this. How many couples remember to wash first when passions take over? Especially spontaneous hookups? Or teens dating?
The contamination can also easily spread to the condom if dirty hands apply it. In that case dryness could encourage infection.
With hpv prevention is everything. The stupid recognized cures worse than the disease.
I prefer circumcision. Working in healthcare there’s more issues being uncircumcised but like pap it’s glorified so debate is limited to the idea that it’s barbaric.
To me, the real issue is performing it without local anesthetic.
Hi cat& mouse,
It was just mom who gave us “the talk”I think dad was a little at sorts discussing this, it came after me and mom went swimming and she must have noticed my buds , and after swimming we went shopping and she bought me some training bras and a day or two later when we were alone that was when she explained things , I think she told dad because after that he used to knock my bedroom door before he came in.
New post over on PHE blog, tackling the (supposed) inequalities in breast screening and what can be done to ensure those marginalised can access it! In other words getting more breasts nuked!!
Once again money will beat reality. As radiologists have more lobbying power than ultrasound techs.
Ultrasound is cheap. It’s the go to for dense breast tissue which hides tumors in mammography.
I prefer the safety of passive detection vs breast mashing and damaging radiation.
What a terrific idea, bombarding a pair of healthy breasts with radiation, sounds like a job creation scheme to me ,nuke women’s boobs until they show signs of cancer then cut them off, keeping their entire department in work .
Love Annette x.
Annette so true. And also very sad for the poor women.
Just saw that the NHS is gonna trial this revolutionary blood test that picks up a lot of cancers. Apparently some ppl will be “invited “ by the NHS. However advice is we still turn up for smears breast and bowel screening as for some reason the test isn’t for that…..
Hi kat ,
That’s great news, with urine tests for std’s , blood tests for many cancer diagnosis, the breast grope test done away with, the pill over the counter, bi- manuals not reccomended,looks like finally a good time for us, and a pretty grim time for a lot of perverts out there.
Hugs Jules x.
Breast awareness month has started today, and yes Sarah Harding has been mentioned already, a couple of soap stars and Lorraine kelly have put their input in for support of this, so everything’s ok then , so girls let’s get down to the doctors quick and enjoy a quick grope it’s for your own good ( puke ).
Love Annette x.
I’ve been watching the news the police officer convicted of the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah everard has received a whole life sentence, doctors are all too frequently in the news for sexual abuse of patients what the hell is going on ? When the very people who are supposed to help us are causing the most harm. Can anyone explain!!!!
Love Annette x.
Annette – This is a cultural blind spot we have regarding medical practitioners, what they do to us, and what constitutes consent. We somehow have been taught to accept whatever they do as “necessary”, “normal”, and “without prurient interests”. Of course, that’s utter nonsense. Our bodies are our own, WE have to live in them. When a doctor is charged with some sort of sex crime, it’s viewed either as an aberration or as somebody “over-reacting” to a situation – or even as a cynical attempt to get rich!
Hi ladies, I have my first doctors appointment on Monday 11th at
11.30 am since we opted out ,but I’m not overly concerned as it will be a phone consultation ( nothing too serious just my sinuses which are quite painful at the moment) so I shall let you know how I get on.
Love Annette x.
This was an interesting read. Nothing I didn’t already know but good to see it’s an actual area of scholarship. Depressing though to know how many are being coerced and denied proper informed consent https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0141076816643324
That piece of research would never have got funding in the UK, but sorry to see these inadequate leaflets are widespread in other countries too. The new UK breast screening leaflet is hardly informative. They’ve tweaked it in a few places but barely noticeably. They need to get rid of the pink. If the same leaflet was in black and white, women would be more suspicious about the whole thing. Women are bullied, patronised and coerced, yet the silly fools lap it up blindly.
Hi ladies, I said I would let you know how I got on with my surgery appointment today, and I’m afraid I have let you all down . The day started great I felt confident and calm as I waited for the call
( which was twenty minutes late)
When I answered it the doctor introduced himself and apologised for the delay he asked for my full name, address and date of birth and then asked what the problem was, I said I was sure it was my sinuses as this has happened before and everything was the same as then, he asked if this was a regular problem and I said not really the last time was about 3-4 years ago, ah yes I have it on the screen now, have you taken anything for it, I said that I had gone to the chemist on Saturday and taken some stuff he suggested but it hadn’t done anything. It all went downhill from there as the next thing he said was I also see that you have opted out of cervical screening , yes that’s right. It’s just that I can’t see any results from a previous test, am I to assume that you opted out without taking any test. Yes that’s right ( the line went quiet for four or five seconds) and then he said may I ask why you have taken that decision. At this point everything I have learned from here just evaporated and all I could do was blurt out No quite loudly, it went quiet for a couple of seconds and then he said I’ll write a prescription for a steroid nasal spray which can collected from the surgery pharmacy anytime after one, was there anything else. No that’s everything thanks bye.
I feel fecking useless, I thought I could handle the situation but went to pieces so easily god knows what would have happened if it had been was a face to face appointment. Apologies to all. Annette x.
Hi Annette. Don’t be too hard on yourself. You were put on the spot. You have done nothing wrong and I still respect you.
It can be very hard to stand up to doctors as we’ve all been conditioned by our upbringing to hold them in high esteem and do whatever they say.
Maybe you’ll be ready next time. And at least you haven’t been coerced into having one against your will.
Cheer up and stay strong. I grew strong by reading all the articles and comments on this wonderful site.
You did far better than I did, Annette. I let myself be bullied and assaulted into 3 tests before I found I could opt out. If only that little word “No” had come to my lips when my ex-GP assaulted me. If you have further problems, you don’t have to give them a reason for your declining to test.
You did fine.
Took my husband several phone calls to get around this. This was after the nurses claimed the dr would go to jail if I was not pap scraped.
Know this. If you have hpv the scrape which draws blood on your cervix would only serve to spread it and allow it to bypass your surface cells defenses thus infecting you worse.
Delphi Screener is the only safe and passive device.
Look it up compared to pap scrape.
My husband got me the Trovagene Urine Based HPV test.
No more pap for me.
Hygiene before touching or sex is best prevention along with circumcision.
Annette, you didn’t let anyone down.
You didn’t need to defend your decision to the doctor and you were right to tell him, “NO”, when he asked you why you had made that decision.
Authority figures like doctors, don’t hear the qord, “no” very often, particularly when it comes to women saying no to men.
You have a legal right to make an informed choice and you don’t have to justify or explain your decision. He was projecting his male entitlement and trying to bully or lecture you.
Likelihood is, if you had cited any evidence or data from BMJ journals, he’d have tried to engage you in a long protracted discussion about it in an effort to get you to change your mind anyway.
I always say “I’ve made an informed decision not to screen” and leave it there. End of discussion.
For what it’s worth, I think you did the right thing.
Having a nosey husband who asks a lot of questions and wants to look over the doctor’s shoulder during an exam is the best doctor erection snuffer there is.
As I devirginated him he protects my vagina as it’s his treasure.
The female providers I had were best. One asked my permission to allow him to see my cervix.
I allowed it and am glad I did.
It’s humbling for a man to see what we go through. If he’s considerate, he will always be there and want to protect. I do same for him.
He wants nothing to do with having his prostate or nuts checked unless I’m present.
He has also been a victim of medical molest; by female nurses.
I actually think you did perfectly well, but that’s just my thoughts. Everyone of us have our own weights/thoughts/what’s right.
There was one time that I was coerced a little bit to answer ‘why’. I had already decided to give them silence. it was awkward as anything, but once you give them a reason, they will argue with you. Sometimes, they would still coerce you even if you don’t say anything. I got lectured on it once before that with: “It’s good for you” by a woman who didn’t notice my distress when I went for a medical certificate for a throat infection!
Nowadays, I say to the effect of: “This is an elective test, and I have made my informed decision. I decline”.
Thanks ladies , i feel a little better this morning, but I am still bitterly disappointed with myself, still have a lot to learn.
Love Annette x
Annette, please don’t be disappointed with yourself. When you’re in a consult with a doctor, they hold all the cards and you hold none of them, and asserting yourself within this dynamic is very, very hard. Blurting out “no” to further discussion as you did is fine, it sent a message that you didn’t owe any explanation and the subject was closed. A brief statement I’ve had success with when queried about paps, mammograms, etc. is “I’ve studied the risks and benefits and made the decision that’s right for me.” That usually shuts them up, lol.
Hi Judy, Thanks for your post, everybody here is so supportive and and it is appreciated, Jules said pretty much the same, but she is so much stronger than me, I just wish I were a little more like her,she would just have told him to go and do one and that would be the end of it.
Much love to all Annette xx.
If you had given him any evidence or reasons for refusing to screen, he’d have tried to engage you in a long protracted discussion to try to get you to change your mind.
Saying NO or that you have made an informed decision not to screen (with no further discussion) is the best way to go in my opinion.
You don’t owe these people any reasons or justification, and they’ll use it against you if you do provide it anyway.
You were right to tell this male doctor, NO, without providing further discussion. As a man and a doctor, he,’s simply not used to hearing it, particularly from a woman.
For what it’s worth, I think you did great. Good for you!
Take out a coin and begin flipping it and seeing if it goes heads or tails.
As you’re doing this, inform the doctor or nurse that pap scrape (use scrape rather than smear) is only 50% accurate.
With each coin flip, say “false negative or false positive” and remind them that pap spreads virus into deeper tissues where it flourishes.
And ask if they would trust a test that’s only 50% effective.
When they come back with statistics and BS, cut them off and insist on them answering YOUR questions first.
Tell me what happens.
Accidentally heard on tonight’s The Drum (for non-Australian readers, it’s a news-discussion program on the ABC channel of Australian tv) the talking heads were lamenting that cancer screening numbers dropped during the pandemic “leaving thousands of cases undiagnosed” blah blah blah.
The focus is of course(!) on female breasts. And of course nobody wanted to mention that less screening also meant that thousands of women didn’t have their breasts and cervixes cut off because of false positives, or because of breast cancer caused by mammography radiation, or because of tumours that would have never progressed to anything life-threatening. Nothing new, unfortunately. The system is obsessed with keeping women under control and having female private parts radiated, poked and probed. Pandemic is subsiding, so the medical and political attention is turning back to bikini medicine.
I’ve been looking through clinical training recommendations issued by the royal college of nurses and midwives in connection with female examinations and was amused by one section which said chaperones are to be used as this will protect the attending nurse from any legal charges if the patient becomes sexually satisfied during the exam.
Say f—cking what!
How the hell is someone going to be turned on! during one of these ?
Maybe the nurse is going to take you for a nice pub lunch pay you compliments on your appearance ply you with wine and gently stroke your arm or leg beforehand.
Hugs Jules x.
Ps ,thanks for helping with Annette
Despite preaching that these exams are not inherently sexual and that women whi feel violated by them are “silly”, this commentary is surely a tacit admission to the contrary! They are confirming why they believe chaperones are needed.
So you have a link to it? It can be shoved in the face of each and every doctor who claims the exams are not sexual.
Hi AQ ,
There is a legal declaration written at the introduction of these recommendations, which states this information cannot be reproduced by an electronic retrieval system or reproduced by photocopies or any other method, this may have implications in concern with my employment if they take this to court, so it’s probably for the best if I just steer you to this information.
The publication was released in 2020 , by the Royal college of nursing under the title of
The genital examination of women.
The section I mentioned was in section 15 of 28 under the heading
“Protecting the practitioner”.
If that doesn’t give the game away I don’t know what does , there is absolutely nothing about protecting the patients at all.if you don’t despise these people already here’s another reason for you to do so.
Hugs Jules x.
Do they now? How interesting.. Not surprising that they want to legally protect this information is it!
Thank you for the heads up though 👍
I’ll be sure to quote it when dealing with an irate pro-screener who claims these exams are not inherently sexual!
Hi ladies. From recent events i now know how easy it is to become tongue tied and go blank at the doctors and after my recent failings at my appointment I’ve thought hard about how to stop this ever happening again, I know I won’t be able to argue my case with a doc , so what I’ve come up with is a card similar to a credit card , we have a friend who works at a printers who could get some made and he could print out a statement on it such as
I HAVE OFFICIALLY
TO OPT OUT OF
AS iNDICATED ON
MY MEDICAL RECORDS.
I could just pull this out and shove it in their face , this way I don’t even have to talk to the b!!tards.
Love and thanks Annette xx.
Annette really you are NOT a failure! U had the courage to speak out and say an emphatic NO! You are most definitely the winner… you didn’t cave and book a smear! I dealt with pressure to screen after I’d opted out by repeating like a parrot, “ I opted out and signed a disclaimer “
It’s such a shame we need to plan ahead and think of ideas like your card, to decline what should be a choice
Honestly you are such a strong and informed woman! Respect!
I can’t help myself from looking for obvious mistakes or Freudian slip-ups by the so called female healthcare professionals, and have found a beauty on the Jo’s trust web page, it even made Annette laugh which at the minute is a major achievement, in it it says after the test a woman might be a little shaken so offer her a drink of water or a boiled sweet ! Remember when you were a child and you’re mom and dad used to say if a grown up offers you a sweet run away as fast as you can.
My ribs are still hurting.
Hugs jules x.
Jules that’s priceless..I’m assuming they don’t mean a large brandy for shock for the drink lol!! Maybe they should throw in a pat on the head and a good girl comment?!
That really made me laugh thank you!!
Interesting thread over on Mumsnet which can be rabid over pro screening, commenting that take up in Scotland is drastically down and wondering if it’s because the word women is missing to be replaced by person with a cervix! I’ve made a few points, and a few women have said they have opted out. And one said she’d sourced the Superdrug kit! Maybe the tides turning
They must be worried about losing the herd after COVID, and also they now have the HPV vaccinated cohorts in the screening programme. If these ladies have had all the jabs at school, good for them for deciding not to screen. Where is there any evidence at all, that those who’ve been vaccinated are at risk of death? How many cases of cervical cancer have there been in vaccinated cohorts, let alone deaths? There is no data. They don’t have answers and are petrified women will find this out and think it’s not worthwhile. Glad to hear this is a changing picture, Kat. I checked my own city for uptake in the under 50s and it’s 65%. Cervical cancer is so rare that the programme simply doesn’t function unless over 80% attend. It is not working and they know it.
I just don’t understand the whole ‘person with a cervix furore’ re impact on screening. It’s not like everyone who’s eligible isn’t sent invitations by post, sometimes text, and badgered at every appointment to attend?! Or, that they won’t have come across any of the pink propaganda. Also, the point has been made numerous times, but if women are coming for screening and don’t understand it’s to do with the cervix or even know that they have one, then they are absolutely not giving informed consent! I suppose I can sort of understand that that phrase might not be as understandable to those with English with a second language or a learning disability, but the same applies to these groups in terms of informed consent too. There’s a certain irony there in that they are claiming that it’s leading to confusion and a barrier to understanding, but the full picture has always been withheld anyway. It’s interesting that so few people actually countenance the idea that some women just don’t want to attend and have made an informed decision not to do so. I don’t know whether to read that thread or not. I’ve read a few before and I get so annoyed with the rabidly self righteous tone of some of the women on there. Some of the comments towards, for example, survivors of sexual violence who have decided not to screen due to the impact on their wellbeing have been downright cruel.
Gem, I do agree! I’ve read plenty of the suck it up and get smeared threads on Mumsnet; this one seems different. One woman posted that the “invitations “ upset her so much then she’d book then cancel then re book and cancel and finally be bullied into the smear when attending the surgery for other reasons. She says since she opted out her mental health has improved: as yet nobody’s shot her down and shamed her. Others say the “it’s not painful” routine isn’t helpful as it does hurt women!
Same people claim death doesn’t kill either.
Pap scrape causes cervical bleeding.
When it bleeds that means an adequate sample was scraped off your cervix.
Yes. It hurts. To say otherwise is lying.
I started reading it and then gave up very early on with the ‘anyone who doesn’t is ridiculous’ comment but I’ll stick with it! I feel really sorry for that woman who was bullied into it – it echoes my own experiences. So glad that people are being respectful of that and really glad too that people are calling out the glib ‘it’s so easy, just put it on your list alongside getting you nails done’ narrative too.
Ah – this is about the ideological political capture of many of our public institutions by the Gender Identity lobby. We will no longer be able to say women and men as we will be categorised by how we identify ourselves rather than our sex. Gender identity is mostly about how we present ourselves and what we wear, if you believe in it. With over 100 gender identities on the cards, chaos looms.
Puzzlingly, men are always identified as men in any health literature to do with men’s health. They even have pictures of football and stuff otherwise they won’t engage. But it was ever thus.
I am now happily opted out of the screening system so do not care for myself. Especially as the screening lobby love to gaslight us with misdirections such as lack of screening being the biggest risk of cervical cancer and letting women think this means they will get cancer if they are not screened. This just means they are screening the compliant (like my Mother-i-L who never missed a smear and had a totally monogamous marriage). They let go of reality to push their case so it easy for them to do it in other areas.
They need to get their house in order.
Here’s the real issue w gender ID BS.
In Los Angeles a male walked into a woman’s gym dressing room and stripped down to shower.
The women were criticized by cops for complaining.
In PA junior high two teens were raped in two different school locker rooms by the same punk.
School officials tried to handle each “internally” without police.
They wouldn’t tell parents a rape occurred just an assault.
The woke nightmare.
I once had a friend who told me about a bad one-off and only experience with screening. This is after I told her I won’t screen. She then urged me to do it at least just the once.
No, thank you. I don’t try to help you feel better about your damaging experience.
Hi ladies, An old friend came to visit, and stayed over Saturday night and we had a great time, had far too much to drink and caught up on everything, we told her about our mission with screening and she told us that she had stopped going after she and a nurse almost had a fight, she had gone as usual for her test ( I know ,I know ) but between this test and the last one she had got some piercings one was called an horizontal clitoral hood piercing, (ouch) two nipple rings and her belly button ring. The nurse said nothing at the time of the exam but after the exam said she would have to make a note on her medical records as this was classed as a type 4 fgm our friend argued this wasn’t fgm and as it was she who had decided to have it done and didn’t want this put into her notes but the nurse said she had to as it was the law after a slanging match our friend left telling the nurse she would never attend again.
When she left in the afternoon I did some reading up on this, and there appears to be 4 grades of fgm and piercings are in them (the lowest) but one of the highest ones is the partial sewing up of the introitus the actual opening of the vag, this is shocking as I’m sure I’ve read that after childbirth some women had torn or were given cuts to aid the birth , I’ve read that after the birth doctors had asked the father if he should put in a “husband stitch” to make it more “pleasurable ”in the future” isn’t this additional stitching and closing of the vag fgm the very thing that they now claim illegal . (They are nothing but hypocrites ,liars and quacks).
Love Annette xx.
I forgot. The husband stitch is also BS.
Tightening the introitus without the entire vaginal vault length is disastrous.
Sex will be painful for her and unfulfilling for him. Pun intented.
Reconstructive surgery like that is more complicated. There is usually a rectocele requiring repair as well.
Good reasons for C-sections.
That is awful. It can’t affect the test and recording it on the database does nothing advantageous for that woman’s health. It is just data collection.
I got told by the nurse (at my last ever smear; opted out now 🙂 ) that she was obliged to put my ectropian on the form, even after she explained that it was nothing to do with cervical cancer. I looked it up and they do indeed seem to have no bearing and are extremely common, ie normal.
Why do they have to put FGM on the form at all? It doesn’t affect the cervix as far as I understand.
It’s data collection. We have giant databases of information which has been collected, for which no one has found a use for yet. In many cases, we just collect data for it’s own sake. No one asks “Why?”, and when they do, they’re met with “You can never have too much data. You never know…” For some people, and some management, politicians, administrators, the more databases you have the more ???? you perceive yourself as being.
Collecting and keeping this data has a cost. It has financial cost as well as privacy costs with data being mined, and used for various commercial purposes. Get enough data points on anyone, even if each of them apply to large segments of the population, and you can identify an individual. From there, both marketing and discrimination are wide open. In some cases, so is blackmail.
The percentage figure of 80% which was set by the government at the time is the scale at which was deemed to be efficient and financially viable for the program to run effectively, but year upon year
(21i believe) it has diminished does anybody know at what percentage
It becomes unsustainable ,or is it likely they would just drop the target figure to cover their own asses to avoid admitting defeat, there’s no doubt in my mind they are untrustworthy and would probably say that because of the effectiveness of the hpv vaccine, that they don’t need such a high target as before, to justify the millions upon millions that have been thrown down the drain with this sham of an exam, and to avoid the wrath of women nationwide who would realise they have been duped for decades suffering this violation of an exam with its false negatives and false positive consequences.
( rant over)
Hugs Jules x.
I firmly believe both the breast and cervical screening programmes were introduced to win the pink vote, and now huge swathes of women have been brainwashed into believing these hideous tests are necessary for survival, none of those spineless politicians will ever openly criticise the programme, let alone suggest shutting them down, even though the evidence that they do more harm than good is clear. This is all about politics, not health, and as you say, the powers-that-be will do anything to ‘keep the faith’, protect their precious programme and their reputations.
The cancer screening programmes have a ‘desired’ participation target and a minimum target – the minimum for cervical screening is 75% and the uptake has fallen below that. Perhaps self-testing could stop or reverse the decline but they don’t seem to be in a any rush there – they just keep running these insulting ‘awareness’ campaigns which serve only to aggravate non-screeners. Some of them are so bad that even the pro-screeners have taken offense.
They’re so bloody stupid they don’t realise that the constant whining about the numbers of women ignoring their invite is most likely empowering more women NOT to go. In the past, we were led to believe the test was practically mandatory and made to feel like a freak if we found the experience awful or avoided it altogether. And now these campaigns are advertising the fact that the test is NOT mandatory, there are a MILLION women who don’t test, and patients who were afraid to speak out before are now doing so.
In regards to the vaccine, if they’re insisting that vaccinated women still ‘need’ smears, and Jo’s Trust wants schoolgirls to be taught about the ‘importance’ of cervical screening, they obviously have no idea whether the vaccine will have the desired effect or not. And IF it does reduce cancer cases, purely on a financial basis there would be NO justification for screening the vaccinated. Even if overdiagnosis and overtreatment was dramatically reduced, the numbers needed to screen to find one case would be astronomical. Perhaps they would start screening later, in which case the targets would remain high.
Having said that, they’ve always known this programme is extortionately expensive, so I guess money’s no object here.
This report was by a company called biomedcentral. com which published this on 10th aug 2018.
Under the heading,
Consequences of screening in cervical cancer.
It describes that it is inevitable that cervical screening will lead to harmful effects in regards to over detection and over diagnosis leading to over treatment and goes on to review the spontaneous regression of abnormal cervical cells .
99% of mild dysphasia (cin 1)
95%. of (cin2)
88%. of (cin 3)
I would like to know at which level they deem intervention necessary,
because judging by these figures it is almost a certainty that you would be subjected to over treatment, it’s my personal opinion is that the fault lies with the test itself, it’s simply not fit for purpose .
Hugs Jules x.
I have just discovered this forum and wish I had discovered it years ago. After being virtually forced to have a smear test in the UK many years ago when I was 17 and finding the entire process humiliating and degrading I vowed never to have one again.
While I have never had any children so havent had to have any invasive exams while being pregnant I have been bombarded with lettings “inviting” me for a smear and I have had a few “cold” calls from a persuasive nurse trying to bamboozle me into attending. One even made me an appointment while we were on the phone which I said I wouldnt be attending and I got a snotty phone call from her the day after the appointment for being a no show. This forum is great as it shows that as women we can be empowered to make our own decisions and not be forced into something we dont want to do.
Chloe, welcome to this website and glad you found us.
I am someone who by chance got invited to this website in 2014 after anger finally forced me to go online and speak up about the appalling experiences of women in the NHS Cervical Screening programme. Like many women, until then I’d been a closet non-screener and formerly opted out by letter in 2003, when I was chased up over the phone one day. I’d always had strong feelings against the programme, and like everyone else, I didn’t know how or if I could opt out. It was always presented as mandatory. I kept it to myself that I didn’t screen, as I daren’t mention it to anyone for fear of the backlash from the pro-screening lobby, and well-meaning lectures from friends. The NHS deliberately make you feel it’s a crime for you to decline, that you’re the only woman in the world being so obstinate, and try very hard to isolate and invalidate you to coerce you into attending. It was a wonderful experience to discover that so many other women had been feeling the same way as I did. I regret staying silent for so long, not researching the topic so I could be armed with facts they couldn’t answer to. and I often wonder how many other women are secretly laying low to avoid these confrontations. The references section on this website has a wealth of articles and papers that the NHS Screening lobby tries very hard to keep out of the news, but we all make sure it gets kicked around from time to time, so that women can educate themselves on this topic.
Hi Adawells, can you actually formally opt out of this humiliating and degrading national screening program? If I am able to then I will! Anything to stop those cheaply printed demands errrr I mean “invites” dropping through my door every few months.
Hi Chloe and welcome! Yes indeed you can opt out of any of the screening programmes! Put it in writing to your GP and also the screening HQ if you can find the address! They will probably ask you to sign a disclaimer of their own , promising not to sue if you do get cancer. Some practices have an opt out form you can download and sign. I opted out in 2015 and have never looked back!
Hi Chloe, they slipped this in a couple of years ago when I think the ethics group on the screening committee pointed out that they were actually breaking the law by not informing women how they could opt out. It should be an essential part of any medical intervention to inform the patient that it’s all optional, but they never do. At the very end of that ghastly pink leaflet they have added a one liner with a link for women who want to opt out, but I strongly suspect it advises you to speak to your GP. I think that the GP gets incentive payments for having a “friendly persuasive chat” with you to try to convince you to change your mind, but don’t be fobbed off.
Tricks they’ve tried in the past include saying that you need a special kind of form (and they don’t seem to have any available), or saying they’ll send you a reminder of your opt-out status every few years in case you want to change your mind. All they really need is your request in writing. If you can include your NHS number too, they’ll have no excuses. They’re obliged to keep your request in your notes forever. Good Luck!
Welcome from Jules and Annette x.
Hi Chloe. I just wanted to welcome you and to say that I’m sorry for your experience of coercion into screening, which echoes my own. I’ve found this forum to be a real breath of fresh air and a safe and empowering space. Great to have you here x
Hi Gem, Thanks for your message. I wish I had found this group years ago as being a woman who refuses to have this procedue as I thought I was the only woman who was against this. My friends think I am crazy not getting it done as “all women HAVE to have this” No they dont be independent! How were you coerced into having a smear taken? As a 17 year old teenager standing naked apart from a front opening gown while a strange male manipulated my breasts and inserted a cold foreign object inside of me was a humiliating and traumatic experiance.
Take your time to read through the previous posts on this site, you will discover the information closely guarded by the medical profession in fear of it getting out to the female population which would decimate their screening targets, there are numerous scientific studies and reports which can be viewed here,sourced by the incredible women on this forum, nobody here will tell you to have or not to have screening what they will say is here is all the information you need and then it’s down to you to choose,but I think you’ll find that it’s your friends that are crazy not you .
Hugs Jules x.
Hi Chloe, welcome to the Rebel Alliance!
The official guidance, as Ada says, directs you to write to your GP who may wish to ‘counsel’ you…. well, as much as I wanted to opt out I wasn’t going to go through all that BS.
But some bright spark on this site found an online opt-out form, and after getting constant phone calls earlier this year I decided to try it and it worked – got my confirmation letter a few weeks later. So there is a simple opt-out system in place now, they’re just keeping it secret.
If you have access to a printer/scanner it can all be done online, no need to bother with your money-grubbing practice.
If you want to give it a go, you should be able to find the form by searching for ‘Informed consent for withdrawal from the cervical screening programme’.
Hi Kate, Thanks for your message. I have indeed complete the form online! Hopefully this will be the end of those trashy demands errr I mean “Invites”, and those awful booklets printed on fish and chip grade paper. If they were like utility bills mine would be printed in red by now and the bailiffs knocking on the door.
Seriously though I don’t think I will have heard the last of this yet, as if some of the other opter outers are to go buy I am probably going to get summoned by my GP for a lecture on the dangers of being a deserter.
Hopefully COVID will play in our favour and they will have too much else to do at the moment. It seems that online remote consultations will be the norm in the future so there’s less chance of being blackmailed for a smear when you go about something else. If you are honoured enough to get a face to face appointment at all that is…!
Glad it worked.
I posted about it a while back – glad it was of use 😀
It made me so happy to get it done this way.
I got the form wrong initially, and they contacted me via my surgery who rang me………. but it seems to have worked ok so far (I had to sign with a new gp surgery a while ago but they are in a constant state of staff change, so fortunately it wasn’t a problem)
Hi Kate, I have now formally opted out!! YIPPEE!!! I AM FREE!!! The website said that I should get formal notification within 2 weeks that I have opted out, so I havent heard the last of this yet, but for now I do feel rather liberated and empowered!
I’m a little bored today Annette’s at work and I’m waiting for an avalanche of work to come through so am trying to keep amused, I’ve been on medical sites looking for stuff, and ended up doodling on my pad and came up with this.
“The cervical screening test(pap smear)” .
If you like doing anagrams check this out, rearranging these letters you can form the sentence,
Accept the evil rape sex crime , but I have n n g and t left over do you think this is some kind of
subliminal message .
Hugs Jules x.
Thanks so much, Jan, it was enormously helpful. 🙂
Congratulations Chloe! Welcome to a life free of smears!
Wow, I have just found this forum and I thought I was in a minority of one before. I’m Jess and since I was 24 I have been bombarded with letters from the National Cervical Screening service demanding that I book a cervical screening appointment even though I am not interested. So far I have been harrassed by both male and female GP’s insisting that I have this test, even by the receptionists. The last time I saw one of the nurses for a pill check she demanded there and then that I have a cervical screening and proceed to draw the curtain across and tell me to undress from the waist down. When I said lets even this up and if I am undressing from the waist down then its only fair that she does the same I got told off like a naughty schoolgirl (although I didnt have a screening test).
Making women get this humiliating and degrading test done seems to be a national obsession with GPs and members of Mumsnet. Reading through here I will now be formally opting out.
A warm welcome to this forum. There shouldn’t be a need for a forum like this, but clearly the dirty tricks persist year after year. According to NHS there is never any pressure on women to get this test. As they say, it’s an offer and an invitation, except it is never offered, only forced, and there never have been reply slips attached to any of these “invitations”. The UK cervical screening programme is an abuse of our human rights and operates illegally as the accounts on here testify. It was commonplace in the 1990’s when the programme was introduced: GPs struck “defaulters” off their lists to reach the 80% attendance they needed for incentive payments, nurses turned up on doorsteps to non-responders and women like myself had it forced on them during pregnancy appointments. They may have relaxed a little since then, but the whole thing is still presented as mandatory, and women are failures and ignorant if they choose not to go. Still a lot of work to do, but we’re glad every time another woman joins us.
I still can’t believe that mead staff don’t even think that they have to get permission to do this test first. It just blows my mind. I mean let’s get real they are going inside someone else’s vagina. I don’t mean to sound crude but not getting permission is rape. Just because they are doctors and they think the test is benefiting woman witch I don’t think it is. I mean there needs to be a movement saying no to unwanted procedures.
I also wonder how many woman have given in to that and felt raped after. This just blows my mind . I just can’t. Not all woman know they can say no. It’s sickening that they get away with this mistreatment. I recently got fillers done on my face of course that is a choice to go to a plastic surgeon. Before the procedure I was told the risk and also told that they in no way whould push me to proceed with the process if I changed my mind. I sighed to paper saying I gave my permission to have the fillers done. Now I believe that is how things should also be done with screening .
Jessica, the public have been brainwashed to believe cancer screening is hugely beneficial, simple, and cost effective when it is anything but.
One of the criteria for mass screening is that the test should be acceptable to the population. It was clear when the cervical screening programme was first introduced that many women offered the test did not find the procedure ‘acceptable’. It’s an unreliable test for an uncommon disease, so the authorities decided they needed an 80% uptake rate in order to have a notable impact on incidence & mortality (both of which had been in decline since the 1950’s) and introduced incentive payments for GP’s which led to HCP’s using unethical and sometimes illegal tactics to get bums on seats. There are so many targets in the healthcare system now, completely undermining patient autonomy.
So the primary reason why GP’s are so keen to get your knickers off is money – the more women they test, the more money they make. A high uptake rate earns them credit when they undergo performance evaluation, so it’s good for their reputation, too.
They must be getting desperate now as the rates have been dropping for years and are around 72% – and I doubt that all of those who attend in one year are regular screeners, so there are plenty of ‘defaulters’ out there.
They’re getting double money for smears this year (as well as flu vaccines), by the way, at the expense of other services – strange how the test is ‘vitally important’ yet they kept telling women not to worry when the programme was put on hold last year, eh?
I also think many healthcare professionals are clueless about the harsh realities of screening and truly believe they’re acting in the patients best interests. Then there’s the saviour complex that so many suffer from where they refuse to acknowledge that their ‘care’ can be harmful.
Discovery of this site will
Change your whole perspective on female healthcare, for your own sake read through it carefully this will be your armour for the future.
Hugs Jules x.