This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion, and is a continuation of the old Blogcritics’ Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion. The original Blogcritics Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion had more than 10,000 comments, but the comments were deleted following changes to the Blogcritics’ site.
Fortunately, the comments from Blogcritics have since been recovered and are preserved here: http://unnecessarypapsmears.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/over-10000-lost-comments-on-unnecessary-pap-smears-find-a-home/ This post also provides a ‘part three’ continuation of the ‘part two’ discussion forum that exists on this site: https://forwomenseyesonly.com/2013/09/22/discussion-forum/
Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.
Hi ladies, we’ve been talking about what’s been going in the uk and how it might be the beginning of the end for this vile exam, if the self screening alternative becomes a major success, and is rolled out nationwide . would it not be possible for our sisters in the USA to follow the example of the uk and lobby their politicians and the medical hierarchy for similar change, it would be amazing if the streets were lined up with their asshole
gynos sitting on the floor holding up cardboard plaques saying , haven’t eaten caviar for three days
Malibu beach house to pay for
Porsche in desperate need of service
please give generously .
life would suddenly seem so good
I believe the term they use is
hugs Jules x.
Let’s hope so. The self-sampling cat is out of the proverbial bag. These gynos should know that self-testing is only a matter of time. They’re not going to be able to avoid it and keep the status quo for ever!
I’ve been a little down lately as my love intrest hasn’t worked out,
(I hate men) it seems that his idea of monogamy wasn’t quite the same as mine. Jules has kept my spirits up, and we’ve been going over some of the screening Awareness Week campaign and having a laugh at the drop your pants slogan that they had to bin because of the complaints it received, who do they employ to come up with this garbage. The Guernsey screening programme have been getting a lot of criticism over this including their official accounts on Twitter and Facebook, on one post on Twitter the commenter posted why didn’t you just put. Helpyourselftomyminge. It might of got a warmer response, they really are a bunch of clowns, it just goes to show they have nothing left, ( by the way did I mention I hate men ) I have missed you all but I’m back now, love Helper xx.
(Ps. I hate men).
If the cervical screening programme ends up in tatters and self screening takes over, please tell me that this will not be the end of this amazing site with all you incredible women so many have contributed with so much over the years, and deserve praise, recognition and thanks, and I for one look upon all of you fondly and as friends and would hate to see that end.
Love helper xx.
I don’t think there’s any reason to close shop. Even if the UK program falls, there’s still programs in the US and Canada and other places, and worse, countries where its mandatory for all women (I heard India mandates pap smears) and many countries that require it for any woman in public service including teachers, and Poland once attempted to mandate it for all women as a requirement to be employed and is still pretty gung ho in that direction.
There’s still a lot of battles to be fought! Don’t think for a moment that if it falls one place,there won’t be some kind of extinction burst from the gyn industry, esp in countries where it hasn’t yet gotten hit as hard. Look out for attempts to start mandating it for employment, as they did with drug testing,another baseless invasive highly inaccurate screening test forced on society eith zero evidence in the middle of a public panic that places no consequences on the inaccuracy or failure of the test industry, thereby making it immune to failure, and relies on an emotional security blanket mentality to further insulate it from attack (after all, “everyone knows” that it works and that no drug-free citizen coukd possibly oppose it!), that continues anyway despite the fact that a non-invasive and far more accurate and effective method exists. (Predictive Safety Alert Meter).
In either case, this is a fight against a well-funded industry of charlatans who will use every resource they purchased with their ill-gotten billions to avoid losing their easy money train and having to go get a real job.
Your right still a lot to do
a relieved helper x
Well the waiting is over, the confirmation letters have come in this mornings post with regards to our opt out , and now no doubt we will be tarred with the “militant dissenters label” at our local surgery (marvellous) I can’t help feeling that this is the best decision helper could of made she probably comes across as quite outgoing and confident, but when you get to know her she is really quite a sensitive soul (if anybody watches the programme Long lost families she spends most of it crying). I really believe that she would of suffered a mental trauma of sorts if she had attended screening, I have my own agenda for opting out, but am not at a stage to talk about it yet. But besides that, know we will be forever indebted to you all for your guidance and information,you are all exceptional women and a credit to your cause. Hugs Jules xx.
Wow – so soon! Congratulations!! 😀 🥂 🍾
We sent the emails on feb 22 and received the letters on the 1 march maybe they have realised the game is up and are just getting on with it. Helper has been at work the last two days they are having to disinfect and sanitize the salon ready for reopening on the 12th, that reminds me, if the schools restart on the 8th make sure you take care, fweo need all its front line troops now women are starting to question screening.we plan on a girly night in on Friday to celebrate we are planning on watching dirty dancing (my favourite) followed by mama Mia(helpers favourite) and plenty of chianti. Hugs Jules x.
Got you mixed up with kat, I was trying to finish off something for work , (deadline)and was not paying enough attention thanks for your congratulations “we’re glad to be in the club”.
Jules – Ah, So lovely that you two get on so well and are a great source of moral support for each other 🤗
So glad you have both managed to opt out – I never knew the NHS Screening “service” could be so efficient haha!
If you’re having a night in, don’t forget the chocolate 🍫 😋
Wow. I’ve just come across a few pages on women vs male gynaecologists on Twitter.
I started off with the odd like or tweet in support of someone’s stance on being able to choose female gynaecologists and now it has errupted into a full blown argument (that probably doesn’t come as a surprise to most of you by now lol 😂).
There is only the odd male commenting here and there on the issue which I think shows they are in the minority on this one.
However, I suspect that those who are engaging most vociferously are male medical students who have had a nerve touched and are trying to justify or validate their beliefs.
What is unbelievably striking is the lack of empathy shown by these individuals and complete disregard for the wellbeing of the patient. Indeed, in my opinion, they are bordering on the sociopathic.
The lengths that these odious individuals are going to, to justify the lack of choice for women patients is staggering, even going so far as to suggest that rather than give women a choice, cameras should be installed to monitor malpractice!
I get that some women will choose a male gynaecologist and that’s their right but the sense of entitlement over a woman’s body in the Twitter comments is frankly obscene.
Clearly, there is still a lot of work to do and also, in trying to push the self-testing message to our American and Canadian friends.
No doubt those psychos would love having gynecological exams on film. That used to be a crime they could be jailed for but now it’s “for the woman’s protection.” The same old sentiment meant to mask the same old abuse.
Hi ladies, that must be the reason dr Nikita levy video taped most of his patients because he did not want to be accused of malpractice,
NOT. The real reason they go into this profession is simple, for access to women and plenty of them. Hugs Jules x.
This is absolutely fantastic to hear that they are turning on each other it’s normally us, I wonder if “someone “ were to throw more fuel on the fire how bad it might get
“lol”. Hugs Jules x
I’m having one of those days when I’m just mad at the medical establishment. There’s no reason for me to see a doctor, but, I know it’s irrational, I’d nearly LIKE to have a (small) reason to go and then tell the doctor off at the slightest misstep, get up and leave in some grand dramatic gesture and somehow… in some way… have a target for my madness, because now it’s all boiling inside me and there’s no outlet because people around me just don’t understand. They think I’m hysterical, at best traumatized, and should get a grip/therapy. Talking to them is not helpful, it’s invalidating.
There’s nothing that pisses me off more. As if we’re too stupid to know bad from good.
Take something in print that says how bs pap really is. Hand it over, explaining you wouldn’t be believed otherwise.
Let the bookworms propaganda be poisoned by medical print proving they’re wrong.
Humbling for them. Freeing for you.
I know what you mean, Constance.
I went through this 15 or 20 years ago. I was so mad at how I had been treated by the medical profession that it was hard for me to function day-to-day. And I was so upset that other women had also been treated so incredibly poorly.
It takes years (decades even) to get past that level of frustration at the normalness of the abuse and control of women by doctors and other ‘sheepie’ women (women who believe everything doctors spout, and how they expect the rest of us to be so blindly compliant too!).
I’m able to step back now and just shake my head at the poor attitudes of doctors and how deficient their training is when it comes to treating women – and most especially over female problems.
You’ll reach an emotional place where you feel better to cope with all this, but its a process and it can take years.
You’ll also become quietly confident at walking into a doctors office and being able to control what happens to you. Controlling what you will allow them to do, and what you won’t.
You will now have a highly sensitive bullshit radar!
You will be able to squash their demands for paps and mammos, and return your consult to what you actually went there for!
I have days…. and weeks… where I’m just mad at the medical establishment. I’ve gone through a period of close to a year where my entire life was medicalized – going from appointment to appointment every day for one thing or other – a cascade that came from a car accident! I’d get conflicting advice, they didn’t listen to anything (like when I complained that I’d walked 3 miles to go to physical therapy, where they had me run a arm-bicycle so I’d have “some exercise – since you’re “inactive”). I told them where to put the arm-bicycle as I walked another 3 miles home. Inactive…. Yeah.
As I get older, they seem to have a big problem with consent – let alone “informed consent”. I’ve got an upcoming appointment, and am slightly around the bend from that. On the pap crap, they get politely told once, reminded that my refusal is in my chart, and that I’m offended by the question. The second time, I point out that I did not come to talk about my vagina, this is an attempt to undermine my bodily autonomy, and penetration of my vagina and/or anus is not up for debate. The law is very clear that anyone can refuse any medical treatment – even ones that immediately needed for life – such as a blood transfusion in an emergency. The third time I walk out and start lodging complaints. That could include the police, the insurance company, the attorney general (I didn’t get what I’d contracted for), the media, the National Women’s Law Center, a private attorney, the State licensing board, city counsel which gives the hospital its occupancy permit…
I’ve had to get to a point where I’m willing to walk out with no prescriptions to treat either my diabetes or thyroid problems. Diabetes is the #7 cause of death in the US, so you abandon a patient because they refuse an OPTIONAL SCREENING TEST??? That is utterly ludicrous! Any of the above people to issue complaints with would see it the same way.
Fortunately, I wouldn’t have to go very long. I’ve got copies of the test results. Go to a “doc in a box” through a pharmacy chain, find an online doctor to Skype with or phone-visit, or even now I can go to Mexico to get medication OTC.
It’s ludicrous that just because I’m a silly woman – and one with PTSD at that – that I’ve got to be willing to go to such lengths for basic medical care.
Wow it’s a shock to the system to go back to work after so much time off, but I have a plan when the clients come back on the 12th I am going to act as advocate for the cause by causualy mentioning the introduction of self testing how easy it is how accurate it is , and how much less invasive it will be compared to a clinic visit, I’m going to try this with all of them maybe I can convert some of them or at least get them think about it. Anyway we are going to get totally drunk tonight to celebrate our new found freedom from paps, sorry AQ we don’t really do chocolate, I’m afraid our passion is icecream (lots of it)
the only trouble is the waist and hip damage, but what the hell were celebrating haha love helper xx.
Wow I’m so glad for this site. I went in for the annual physical with my female doctor. I had always gone somewhere else for gynecological reasons to another woman Dr. So when the male nurse ,Rudy who I like very much came in to do weight and blood pressure, THE FIRST QUESTION WAS….( and you old timers know what it’s going to be )… date of last pap? I never thought about it much before this site. So I asked Rudy, if when men come in do they get asked about the date of their last prostate exam. To be honest I don’t even remember what he said.
But when the Dr came in and said ” so you are going to your gynecologist for your woman wellness exam”, at this point I just said yes because I didn’t want to get into it right now. I need to have my data ready and I’m still learning. There is a lot here to read. But I asked her the same question. “do you ask men about the date of their last prostate exam and why aren’t there Men Wellness Exams?” She said well if a man was showing symptoms, then she would pull out the gloves and go in the rectum and that happens here at the annual physical. I asked why if a woman isn’t showing symptoms then why are they wanting to do pap smears. She said because it’s a screening process. I then said that I heard cervical cancer is low anyway. She says yes because of the screening. So I’m seeing directly what you are all talking about.
I wonder if she knows the father of gynecology was a white slave owner who practiced without anesthesia on his slaves to develop the techniques.
Good on you, Vegan! You’re now much more aware of the lies and abuse from doctors and you can speak up and defend yourself. Questioning what happens to you and not blindly accepting things anymore is great.
Research everything, read papers, trawl the internet, take on board what we say here, and you’ll be in control of your own health.
Those answers she gave you are pure BS, and my blood is boiling right now. There IS a screening test for prostate cancer screening (the PSA ;blood test) as well as the digital rectal exam – but they are not recommended because they cause harm. They often lead to painful unnecessary biopsies, surgeries and treatment for a cancer that may never have bothered a man in his lifetime. You know, very similar harms (which we’re not told about) to the pap smears and mammograms that are pushed on us at every turn. The difference is men are protected from the harms of screening and we are not! It just makes me livid.
My husband refuses prostate exams. He does allow PSA blood tests. Accurate or not better than nothing. He gets testosterone which is reason to test.
“Cycling” or flushing the prostate 21x or more monthly, taking aspirin and zinc daily plus high omega 3 diet, tofu, very little meat, protects.
And here’s a tip – you don’t need an annual physical or wellness exam. We don’t do them here in Australia. Research has shown it’s poor at finding anything, and it gives you false confidence that you are ‘fine’ until your next annual.
I wouldn’t go annually, but I would recommend being aware of how your body feels and deciding what you think doesn’t seem right and bringing it up with a doctor if need be (while still dodging the stupid demands for paps, mammals and pelvic exams).
I meant ‘mammos’, not mammals!!! Stupid auto-correct….. :-p
I’m on a roll this morning….. 🙂
I researched the incidence rates and deaths of cervical cancer here in Australia over the years, and I was shocked at what I found. I’m a biologist, btw.
Before the cervical screening program, the deaths from cervical cancer occured at the same rate as brain tumours. That was 700 to 900 women every year in Australia died from brain tumours and cervical cancer (700 to 900 for each of them).
After the cervical screening program was introduced, the number of deaths from cervical cancer per year dropped to 500 to 700 per year.
So the screening program was saving on average 200 women per year from dying from cervical cancer.
To do that, we have insisted and forced that about 8 million women in Australia of the appropriate age (from teens to their 70’s – there are currently 12 million females in total here in Australia according to the last census) get a pap to find these 200 women per year who can be saved.
Cervical cancer is a rare cancer. So rare that testing for it just isn’t logical.
Doctors will pat you on the head comfortingly and laugh at you if you walk into a consult and say you want to be screened for brain tumours. They’ll tell you they are very rare and you shouldn’t worry about it.
But in the same breath they’ll ask you when your last pap was and insist you need to be screened.
For a cancer that is as rare as brain tumours.
Doesn’t add up, does it?
Oz – I would even question if the full 200 was down to the screening programme.
Rates have been steadily declining even before screening was introduced.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some of this decline was due to awareness of things like HPV.
In the 80s in the UK, there was a massive awareness campaign around AIDS & the dangers of unprotected sex which might have played a role in safer sex practices.
A way of demonstrating this I guess would be looking at reported rates of STIs to also see if there was a corresponding decline.
Some articles suggest there has been no discernible improvement yo mortality rates as a result of cervical screening.
Oh I love that. Maybe I’ll ask for a brain tumor test. LOL! And pull out data that it’s the same amount of people that get it. Despite being vegan for almost 8 years I still have high blood pressure and she wants to monitor that for medication. And I get the blood tests but they don’t go far enough. Like testing for hormone levels, something that affects women far more than the stupid pap smear tests.
I know that now we are “opted out” it will or should stop invites arriving, but as many know this does not stop them trying it on during clinic visits ,by asking “if we have changed our minds about screening “”or would we like to reconsider “or question our decision, so I have been thinking of ways to combat them on this, and think I’ve come up with a winner, be polite (I know it go’s against the grain) and tell them that you have officially opted out of screening , if they mention it again just remind them of your first answer , if they persist this is the turning point,demand they give you their full name and NHS registration number as you would not like to get anything wrong on the complaint form , and then tell them to go and fetch one, the power dynamics will be a complete turnaround, it’s they who would feel threatened and subservient for a change, use their own tactics on them.this should work on doctors, nurse practitioners or anyone else there that questions your informed decision , I’m sure that once the word gets round the clinic about your “attitude “ that you will be left well alone.
Hugs Jules xx.
Yes, that’s probably a good idea. Don’t give them any explanations, just tell them you have opted out, all the while with a big smile on your face 😁
Could one of you knowledgeable ladies help out with this, all of us have our own beauty regime that helps us to feel good. Mine is a hot bath with scented candles followed by a rub down with body butter cream this helps me wind down from a rough day at work. Helpers idea is similar but she usually goes a step further plucking eyebrows shaving legs, armpits and “other areas “ the whole nine yards, but instead of cream she uses talcum powder, this is why I would like your input, I have just read that talcum has been linked to ovarian cancer if it’s used on your “sensitive areas “. Is this the case, is this a proven research, and if it is why are there no public warnings around, I have read that it is no longer for sale in the USA or Canada this is all new to me as this is the first time I have come across this info, help please
Hugs Jules x.
It’s a small, but established increase in risk. In Europe, there’s probably no warning on it because nobody bothered to fight for it. There are powders available without talc, like Burt’s Bees or Lush.
In the US there have been well publicized warnings for years about women
using talc in their underwear. Johnson & Johnson, a major manufacturer of baby powder, has been successfully sued in class action lawsuits by women with ovarian cancer. Apparently talc contains asbestos, which can cause ovarian and other cancers. As a result talcum powder has become quite hard to find in the stores here.
Corn starch powder makes an effective substitute.
On talc, use of it was linked to cancer because of where it is mined, and it often contains asbestos, a known carcinogen. In 1976, the Cosmetic, It has been associated with increased incidence of uterine and endometrial cancer in the distant past. In 1976, the Cosmetic, Toiletry, and Fragrances Association (CTFA), which is the trade association representing the cosmetic and personal care products industry, issued voluntary guidelines stating that all talc used in cosmetic products in the United States should be free from detectable amounts of asbestos according to their standards.
Any on the market in the US, and other countries with similar standards or suppliers, should not contain detectable asbestos.
So, from the looks of this research, going back well over a decade, seems to say if you like talc and want to use it, go ahead. If you don’t like it and don’t want to use it, it’s NOT because it “causes cancer”. The evidence seems quite week – at least since they got the asbestos out in 1976. However, don’t use it from containers that have been on the shelf for 50 years. 🙂
Just seen some good news that miniature cameras which can be swallowed might soon be a replacement for endoscopies and colonoscopies. The tiny devices transmit images as they go through the gut by a sensor worn as a belt for a day. Really good news for these horrible tests, and shows how quickly screening can be made into an acceptable test when men are on the receiving end. But why so tardy with HPV self-testing? I’m wondering how many of those HPV self-tests have been returned so far? But, can’t get too excited about this, as it is only a study set to run until December this year. After that, it will take a year to write up the results and maybe put into practice… I think women need to boycott this test in droves to force them to speed things up.
This was from me. Not sure how I came up as Anonymous.
Thanks so much ladies, helper was a little upset last night when I showed her the cancer links but she has only been using it for a couple of years so any risk should be minimal, she had a clear out last night and now the flat is talc free. many thanks for all your replies.
Hugs Jules x
Just read an article in the sun on Sunday about the girls aloud singer Sarah Harding,it seems that she has breast cancer which lead to a mastectomy at the age of 39. I find this upsetting as it doesn’t seem that long ago me and my friends used to dance away to this group at the school disco , very sad but in the article the cancer charity coppafeel have made the most of this opportunity,the head of this organisation Baroness Delyth Morgan said that 11,000 in the uk could have undiagnosed cancer due to the pandemic ,they really do love a martyr and scare tactics if it highlights publicity for themselves don’t they she’s now urging people to get checked out , she’s probably in cahoots with the doctors who will see a drastic fall in women’s checks if self testing takes off, and is trying pacify them with a few boobies instead, they just don’t give up do they. Love helper x.
I just saw a comment over on Mumsnet about mass covid testing in asymptotic ppl: mass testing asymptotic ppl is a nonsense and the comment writer is very worried where this is going
Is the same not true of smears??!!
It’s true, Kat, the Innova lateral flow tests we’ve been given for NHS staff are not licenced for asymptomatic people and only give partial accuracy for those with symptoms, so someone at Innova is making huge sums of money for tests which don’t work very well, but that’s been the COVID pandemic all over hasn’t. As NHS staff I’ve been given a box to do twice weekly with nasal swabs. Not sticking them anywhere else, that’s for sure. A lot of people saying it’s a waste of money, but I’ve been doing my tests anyway if it’s not anywhere invasive. I’d draw the line at that.
On the issue of pointless tests Kat, I wanted to ask if your daughter has received her pink cervical screening blackmail letter yet? My daughter is 24 this year, and I fear the summons will be coming this year. Not sure what she’ll do as many of her friends are older.
Ada, same, as a school worker I’ve been doing the tests too twice a week, though I refuse point blank to report results to test and trace. It’s not pleasant is it??
Funny you should say, my daughter hasn’t had her first “invitation “ yet and she must be about due. She lives in Wales, not sure what’s going on there. She has said she won’t be going even when she does get it
On another note, is it true that they’ve suspended the one off bowel scope screening?? I read they couldn’t get enough staff to do the screening?
Stay safe all x
I don’t know about the bowel screening, but I think this may resume soon as a big effort going on to get staff back from COVID support to the other things which have been left, so I bet they’ll be pushing the screening again soon. I did read in a GP magazine that they are doubling QOF points for cervical screening to get it back up to date again. I also spotted that 2 points are awarded for contacting a ceased decliner every 5 years to tempt them to reconsider, but also, interestingly, 2 points are also awarded for having “that chat” with someone who has decided to decline anyway. I would be interested to hear from people on this site if this is true or not. It does mean that GPs can still hit targets and get their dosh even if women decline and opt out, so a bit of progress, I suppose 😑
Ada, I opted out in 2015 and would have been “due” for a smear in 2020 if I’d stayed in the programme. I had heard about the letters practices send and was half expecting one last year as it would be 5 years. Whether my practice have held off due to covid, or whether it’s finally sunk in I will never go, I don’t know
Incidentally on Tuesday I was “invited” by text from my surgery to book my covid vaccine which is today. I have serious concerns but I’m going. I wondered if they’d appointed a screening czar to try and persuade non screeners to have a smear while on phone booking for the vaccine but no, nothing happened!!
On the news this morning the government are “considering “ whether to make the corona jab compulsory for care home workers, if this happens what next ? , I’ll bet the screening authorities mouths are watering thinking of all those bonuses if this can be applied to female healthcare .
So much for bodily autonomy
Hugs Jules x.
Not sure if they could do that though. It could be argued for vaccines, except maybe the hpv vaccine that protects against something that can’t be sneezed into another person’s face, since its a contagious and deadly disease (note I’m not approving of compulsory jabs, just pointing something out), but for women’s health which is largely focused on elective cancer screening?
Of course,in the US we have the ADA, which means that an employer may only impose medical exams or procedures upon employees if it directly relates to their ability to do their job, and while they may impose any medical exam they like on potential hires, including things not related to the job, if complaints are made the burden is on them to prove that they aren’t using that extraneous and unnecessary data to deny employment based on.disability, including concerns based on assumed potential health insurance premiums/claims, or based on assumptions of potential absenteeism. And you don’t gave to be disabled to report them! So if your employer or prospective employer is requiring you get your testified or vagina medically fondled, or unnecessary bloodwork done, etc, crap that has nothing whatsoever to do with your ability to do the job, make a compaint to the EEOC today!
Thanks to both the elder and younger Bush administrations!
So while it might be possible to require it for public service jobs here, on the basis of safety, I’m.not 100% how far they could take it. A lot of folks work from.home now.
The compulsory jab for care home workers was on the 8 oclock BBC morning news, by Matt Hancock . I kept my eye on the news all day but did not hear it mentioned again, I hope they don’t think that they could sneak this through as it could have major implications for others, such as ourselves .by altering the laws and human rights act this would remove the safety net we have of autonomy and free choice,I think it might be time for battle stations,this proposal cannot be allowed to go ahead,there must be a show of strong opposition to quash it in its tracks, they have gotten too big for their boots this time, it may be time to go to war, rolling pins at the ready girls.
Hugs Jules x.
I’m following this too, both personally and as a Trades Union Officer, I’ve even seen employers calling for powers to discipline workers of they refuse to do the lateral flow tests on demand!
As to screening, I’m not sure. If they just imposed it on women, it could be argued men get bowel cancer too so they should do the shit kit by law and be subject to the same penalties as non smearers or non boob nukers!
Also only just noted an appalling Mumsnet thread from 3 months ago, a 26 yr old woman asking is she unreasonable to complain about the way she was ambushed into a smear and the appalling way it was given, and also that nursey was really cutting about her weight. The comments were back to the be grateful and sick it up sort. Vile. Stay safe all x
Sorry to see that sort of behavoiur is still going on, Kat. Would have said that’s just typical if you’d said it was from 30 years ago, not 3 months ago. Just goes to show we still need to get out there and keep emphasising that this test is voluntary and coercion shouldn’t ever be used. I seem to have read somewhere recently that GP points for cervical screening targets have been doubled to re-invigorate the programme post-Covid rather than let it slip, so women could be in for a tough time for a while.
Off topic but it made me laugh, for once Boris had told the truth when he said capitalism and greed is behind the successful British vaccination programme lol!!( For anyone wondering I’m now a complete anarchist aged 57……)!?
Jules I think it couldbe made mandatory for new employees to have the vaccine, but those already in post it might be harder as it’s not written into the old contracts? Such a big change in what’s basically working conditions would require a review and discussion, most probably with the Unions. Of course this government has no respect for workers or even humans and their rights so you could be right… I’ll find my rolling pin!!!!
Tried to have a breast ultrasound today (checking my implants), said on the phone when making the appointment that I want to talk about my implants/breasts/ultrasound ONLY. Enter gynecologist: Same old, same old. “Why don’t you have paps? Did you EVER have a pap? Well, I need to ASK at least!”. Told him I felt not respected and left without the ultrasound. Will try another MD in a few weeks… what does he think he has achieved? He certainly hasn’t improved my health! (This is Constance with the mushroom in the Twitter avatar – I can’t log in here via Twitter, it always tells me the link expired.)
Good on you for leaving! It takes guts to stand up to the bullying. Hope you find a better MD!
If your in the US I wonder if you could have the images done at another doctor besides a Gynecologist. Someone less likely to push paps.
This is probably something to keep an eye out for in future – opportunist ‘screening’ at a vaccination clinic for AF .
It isn’t passed by the UKNSC https://legacyscreening.phe.org.uk/atrialfibrillation – it is being funded by a charity https://www.heartrhythmalliance.org/afa/uk/news/af-association-rolls-out-opportunistic-af-screening-at-covid-19-vaccine-centres There is already a national trial for this in place.
It seems like some charities take over when they don’t get the answer they want from govt. They get a chance to ‘educate’ and they are in there. Since they all do musical chairs in the board room, they are all using similar methods to get their foot in the door.
It feels like no part of the medical industry is immune.
A couple of weeks ago, I went to a skin clinic to get a couple of dodgy moles on my shoulder checked. The female nurse was lovely and said that she thought the moles should both come off (after getting a colleague to have a look to confirm). An appointment was booked with a male doctor. The nurse then mentioned that because I have a lot of moles, the doctor would want to do a full body top to toe check to make sure there were no other moles of concern before removing the dodgy ones.
Me: I know my body, these 2 moles are the only ones I’m concerned about, I don’t need a full body check
Nurse: Probably still a good idea
Me: I only want these moles looked at
Nurse: You can keep your bra and undies on and the doctor can lift them to the side to check. You can have a chaperone. The doctor is very quick and professional blah blah blah…..
Me: Just these moles
Nurse: Discuss it with the doctor when you see him.
I have my appointment this week and already I am feeling anxious about what should have been a straightforward mole removal. I’m prepared to stick to ‘these moles only thanks’ but makes me angry yet again at having to even have the discussion!!!
Like you can’t see your own skin yourself!
I was so impressed when my dermatologist told me I didn’t need annual skin checks, she simply said if I see anything new and was concerned, make an appt.
Not something you hear very often with the “check-everything-just-in-case” approach these days
I have vitiligo and see her every few years, I’m amazed it’s a 5-6 month wait to see her these days, she complained at my last appt, “I have so many here for skin checks, I don’t have a lot of time for patients with actual skin issues. I’m really not a fan of medical fishing expeditions, after a certain age, they’re bound to find all sorts of things – things that don’t need to be found!
Pleased it went well, Bec
You’ve had several of these already. Right? So glad you finally get a break AND you have a doctor that gives relevant medical advice.
What we deserve to hear more often.
My turn next…
Please let us know how you get on, Bec. Tell’em where to go if they get overpowering.
Just ware a top such as an off the shoulder number, or if this has to be removed have something like a sports bra underneath, and refuse to remove anything else, tell them you have no other concerns other than these moles on your shoulder and this should be the focus of their attention, if they start to make you uncomfortable they may need to be reminded of a patients rights of refusal, everyone on here is behind you and wish you well.
Hugs Jules x.
Thanks everyone for your support! Went okay because I firmly but nicely reiterated that I only wanted the 2 moles removed.
When I arrived, I had to fill in a consent form and I just put a line through all the stuff about a chaperone and understanding that the check would be done in underwear etc and wrote N/A, 2 moles on my shoulder. The receptionist said “Oh, so you don’t want the full body check then?” I said no thanks, the form was given to the doctor who didn’t question me further.
Yay, feeling better and stronger for the next time I need to say no. Have a nice day everyone!
So happy for you, Bec! Good on you. Every time we express our decision and back it to up, it’s helping doctors realise they need to respect the wishes of women. We’re not there to just have things done to us. We have a say and we’ll stand up for our rights until respecting us becomes automatic, not something we have to fight for.
Well done Bec and I’m glad it went well for you. 17 year old me also thanks you. At that age I was made to completely strip off by a male doctor, despite my protestations, when I went for an appointment about facial acne ‘to see if it was anywhere else’. I found it deeply traumatic and it taught me that my wishes did not matter and I had no bodily autonomy. Until the day when patients are routinely able to give free and fully informed consent and this is properly taught in training institutions, people such as yourself making a stand are making a key contribution to a much needed cultural shift in medicine. Not that the onus should have been on you in the first place, but well done nonetheless x
Take your partner along and ask lots of questions.
Interrupt the doctor’s rhythm don’t let him/her enjoy doing the exam.
Ask why parts of exam are medically justified especially if your appointment was for something else not even remotely related to your vagina.
Be aware. I have heard of some dermatology clinics taking full nude body photos to “compare” year to year. I might suggest you take a photo of only areas of concern at home and bring them to the clinic if changes are to be looked for over time.
I had a skin checkup at a chain/franchise skin clinic after a BCC was removed from my eyelid. The surgeon said go get the rest of your skin checked as there’s usually more than one.
It was a disaster.
The check itself was fine, it was everything afterwards that sucked.
At the front desk the receptionist said the doctor wanted to see me in 6 months, so they’ll make an appointment now.
I said no thank you. Don’t send me reminders and I’m not making another appointment.
The receptionist didn’t like that. She then suggested making an appointment for 12 months.
I said no, if I feel the need for it I’ll contact you. I wasn’t making a pre-booked appointment. Don’t contact me.
She didn’t like that, but she nodded, I paid and left.
Six months later I got a phone call saying I must come in for a check up. I said I told you, no calls, no checkups, no appointments.
The lady said, oh sorry, won’t call you again.
A month later I got another phone call. I again said I’m not coming in and you told me you wouldn’t call me. Again, sorry, we’ll make a note of that.
A few weeks later, another call. Then another, and another, on and on.
Finally I blew my top and told them to remove my number from their records. They said they couldn’t.
I got another phone call. I demanded to speak to the owner. Got him on the phone, he apologized and agreed the calls were over the top, and agreed with me to remove my contact details.
Then I got another phone call a month later!
I went nuts, yelling, blowing up at them, you name it. Obviously they didn’t remove my details as they were STILL CALLING ME!
Got the owner on the phone again, blew up at him. This time they said they would remove my details. I said I don’t believe you, the calls keep coming, this won’t stop, I’m never coming back and this is illegal harassment and I’m making a complaint with the AMA.
I then blocked one of their numbers they were using, but I couldn’t block their private number.
I haven’t had another call since, so obviously they gave up. This is a chain skin cancer clinic in Sydney. I left a Google review saying what had happened to me, and warning people to not go to them. I’ll never go to one of these things again. I’ll get my boyfriend to look at the places I can’t see on my back and leave it at that!
Hi Bec. So glad it went well. I was rooting for you. By standing firm you are helping the next young woman coming along.
Congrats Bec on only receiving the treatment you wanted.
Hi ladies! Hope you’re all ok?
Maybe times r a changing! My daughter is 25 next month and living in Wales. She is adamant she wants no kids, and recently changed doctors. She still hasn’t been “invited “ for her 1st smear. Today she went for a copper coil fitting (don’t get me started) and proposes to get the Pill privately! I was convinced they’d offer her a smear today while they were “in the area “ but it wasn’t even mentioned!!
OMG sounds like a baptism of fire! I hope it all went well for her and they treated her kindly?
Incidentally she had decided against having smears, and was relieved it wasn’t brought up, though I think she’d of stood her ground and refused if necessary
Ada yes, the smear word wasn’t mentioned, and she said she just felt a pinch as it went in!
She was half expecting the offer of a smear, I think she was relieved it wasn’t offered, though she wouldn’t have given in and had one!
That’s amazing! I’ve read female doctors complaining they found the process extremely painful when they had an IUD inserted and were taken aback how painful it was. Glad it went OK for your daughter.
Thanks Ada! Hopefully it won’t cause her any problems now it’s in. Can’t say I’m thrilled but it’s her choice….
You’re a good mum.
Glad it all went well! My sister needed her IUD changed, and she opted to have it done at a special womens clinic with sedation, as the original insertion without sedation was quite painful. She had intravenous twilight sedation.
She said it was so much nicer being off with the fairies! I think women should be offered the sedation, but we all know what doctors are like about that – womens pain doesnt exist and we should just suck it up. :-p
Great for her!
If you ever must get endometrial biopsy done insist on this sedation.
Yes, I’ve heard those are awful. I only know one person who has had one. They don’t seem to be done very often here in Australia. From what I’ve been reading they’re much more common in America. They seem to do them for the slightest reason.
No one is doing that to me unless I’m knocked out!!!
Think its disgusting how they tell women its just uncomfortable with a quick pinch! What rot, most women describe it as the most painful thing they’ve ever had, like torture.
Just visiting the site to see what’s new, and kudos to you in regards to your posts on your daughter, this shows the women on here do not impose their own will on others, and just try to educate them to make their own decisions, although you wrote that you weren’t happy about it ,you also said it was her decision and respected it , as Adawells said your a good mum
Hugs Jules x.
Thank you Ada and Jules!!
And a big thank you to all the women here, including Sue who’s site it is, for all the help, advice and friendship over the years! I truly value this site, and the ppl on it x
Hi ladies (and Alex), It’s been ages since I’ve been here and you probably don’t remember me. But you were always very supportive of me and helped me through me fears and trauma over being pressured into unwanted paps and exams -in which I have never surrendered! I still support your cause. I just been busy with life and haven’t had time to check in. But I just really have something non-gyno related to ask you. You are all very intelligent on the subject of medical coercion so I’d like to turn to you to ask for your insight. What are your thoughts on Covid-19, the pandemic, the vaccine? What are your thoughts on the vaccine, in particular? I don’t know if I trust this rushed vaccine, especially when I’m low risk. People around me keep pressuring me so much about this that I wish they’d go back to talking about pap smears! Really been feeling twinges of anger at the man I love for getting one, especially when he never bought into the fear mongering before. But his nurse mother basically forces it on him. UGHH!
I’ve had both jabs of the Pfizer vaccine. I work in a hospital which has had some big spikes and I have some high risk family members at home. In fact my 93 year mother got COVID and is now very well, fortunately. I don’t think my husband would be nearly so fortunate somehow, so I was glad to get it done and much reduce the risk of bringing the virus home. I’m quite OK if people choose not to have it. It makes no difference to me either way.
COVID, or anything airborne which causes a serious, and in some cases fatal illness is a lot different that cervical cancer. If someone wants to avoid getting HPV, the only types of CC they routinely test for, they are invited to stay out of my vagina. I cannot insist that people who may not wish to get COVID-19 from me refrain from sharing airspace with me – unless I completely stay in my home and have no one outside my home come in.
In the US, there are over 600,000 “excess deaths” in 2020 over the past several years. What’s the difference between 2020 and prior years? Duh? FWIW, this is well over the military deaths during the 4 years of World War 2, in just over a year! Compare this to the 4100 or so women who die of CC each year in the US, and the CC is NOTHING.
As you cannot prevent someone from re-breathing the air you’ve exhaled, you’ve still got a choice. You can get the vaccine – and there are several to choose from depending on what country or what area you are in. Or, you can stay out of the public space. Get your supplies delivered, and pay for them electronically. Otherwise, you are participating in reckless spreading of the virus – potentially killing some, potentially causing millions of dollars of medical expenses for some people who get it, possibly causing lifetime disability for some. And… they can sequence the genes in viruses, so it can be determined where the person got the virus – leading to a huge personal injury suit. Insurance or governments won’t be interested in paying when there is an identifiable responsible party from whom to get payment.
If your SO has had one, he is partly protecting YOU from him bringing SARS-CoV-2 into your home, potentially infecting you. These messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines are theoretically impossible to “shed virus” from, since they contain NO virus – only RNA to cause the body to produce the proteins which are the “spikes” on SARS-CoV-2.
This development wasn’t “rushed”. They’ve been working on mRNA vaccines since the 1970s. The Astrazenica vaccine is a more “traditional” vaccine,and it’s the one with a possibility of causing blood clots, especially in young women.
How are you “low risk”? Do you live in a cave and haven’t seen another live human being in over a year? Or, are you “young and healthy”? Well, in my town of about 125 people, 2 “young and healthy” people in their 20s died of COVID-19 last month, leaving 3 children orphaned, and the woman was about 6 months pregnant (viable foetus). The third was in his 80s in bad health. He would have certainly died anyway in a few years. The point is that without COVID, he wouldn’t have died THAT day. Now, had a bad guy shot him, that person would have been charged with murder. Had he used the “would have died anyway soon” as a defense, he’d have been laughed out of court. How about whoever recklessly infected the couple in their 20s?
My former MIL, 91, died of COVID-19 a couple of months ago. Neither would she have died THAT DAY without COVID. She wouldn’t have lived more than a few more years – her mother and grandmother lived to be over 100.
If you recklessly kill someone with a terminal illness, do you know what they call it? Reckless homicide. That comes with prison terms.
The more people who refuse the vaccine, the longer we’re going to be in this situation of evaluating the chances of getting a serious, long-term, or deadly disease vs getting anything we need or want outside our homes or letting someone in our homes. We have to get to the point where the RO number, the average number a new cases passes it to, to be <1 for it to go away. We've never had that happen naturally – otherwise, everything from measles to polio to small pox wouldn't have plagued humanity for thousands of years – until we vaccinated against them.
Yes, I've had my first shot of Moderna about 3 weeks ago, and have an appointment, which I'll walk over broken glass to keep, next week. Yeah, just like parents in the 1950s walked miles and stood in lines for hours to get their kids either of the polio vaccines.
This is a lot different than a pap test.
Sorry. I’ll consider the Johnson and Johnson one after a bit of time passes to work out some bugs, but I’m not about to become corporate America’s guinea pig (Astra Zeneca is the one that had blood clots, and its been beefed up in the corporate media even as the equally troubling mRNA deaths have been downplayed, and it’s clear thats a shock doctrine technique to herd people into the final clinical trials of an experimental method). There is no chance in hell that I or anyone in my immediate family will ever accept mRNA experimental “vaccines”. Especially when the companies lobbied for total liability immunity to any negative outcomes. I live in the US, where a cold could damn near bankrupt you, I can’t afford a lifetime of potential autoimmune disorders or other complications by being part of a final clinical trial with zero liability for any damage they cause. We all know how trustworthy greedy corporations can be when they know there will be no consequences for their actions,after all. They have a lot of gall demanding liability immunity in a broken health system.like this, as if chronic health complications aren’t bad enough without going bankrupt and homeless from them.
And no, there is nothing you can say to change my.mind on this. I wear my mask everywhere, I wash my hands, I distance, in the rare cases I actually leave the house, so I’ll wait for the ones where I’m not a free test subject to make someone else a huge profit.
Just be happy I’m considering any vaccine at all in this broken American healthcare system.
Actually, it IS the J&J vaccine that’s had the blood clot problems – 6 people have gotten blood clots, 1 of those women has died, out of 7 million shots. That makes the odds thus far at a little under 1 in a million!
It’s being looked at. COVID-19 has blood clots as one of its major effects. Thus far, COVID-19 has killed over 560,000 people, while it’s infected over 31 million. The vaccine has caused blood clots in 6, and killed one. One idea, which is being researched, is that all of the people affected were women ages 18-48 – and it’s known that blood clots are a side effect of birth control pills – effecting 1 woman in a couple of thousand, and as protection from unwanted pregnancy improves their lives, they risk it. Perhaps those with the covid-jab correlated blood clots are all taking birth control pills, or a particular type, and they can add a disrecommendation for the J&J and Astrozenaca when it’s approved for women on BC pills to take those shots. Pregnancy is also a risk for this, at a higher rate, and women 18-48 are also in the pregnancy range. Was pregnancy invoved with any or all of these cases.
Another important thing is that actually getting COVID-19, is a much higher risk for getting blood clots than any vaccine! There’s a 1 in 5 risk of getting a serious blood clot from a symptomatic COVID infection.
You can get more of an overview of this by watching the 27 minute video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFIxMGWrfTQ
The whole anti-vax movement is put out by under a dozen people. Vaccines have prevented many deaths during the 19th-21st century – so much so that we’ve got overpopulation issues, and a world population rapidly approaching 8 billion. We first reached 1 billion at the beginning of the 19th century. The reason this catches on is that people are very bad at risk assessment based on statistics.
Making it worse are things like where some risks are presented in terms of percentages, where others are presented in number per 100,000. That’s a difference of 1000 times, but people see them as equivalent. Another thing that makes it worse is a combination of distrust of science or education, or even reading actual research papers, and an emphasis on what “the man on the street” thinks – either a stranger posting on facebook, with unknown motivation, or a “man on the street” This makes for a lot of misinformation! The motivation of those creating the misinformation is often suspect.
People here can read research papers, and evaluate what is said. As we can read studies about how rare CC is and how ineffective, and subject to overtreatment paps are, why don’t we read about COVID or the vaccines? There is plenty of information available in the medical journals, on government websites from numerous countries.
Vaccines work better on populations than they do for any individual. There are risks with all of them, while having sufficient people vaccinated drives the disease out of the population. If enough people get their COVID vaccination, the sooner we can get back to normal. The lower the probability that this RNA virus – which notoriously mutate quickly, will mutate in such a way as to escape vaccine protection, will become more deadly, or will become easier to transmit. We’ve got variants that are easier to transmit now.
Vaccine manufacturers cannot be sued in the US, unless adulteration or recklessness in the manufacturing process is proven. Instead, claims are evaluated and paid by the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, If one is injured by a vaccine, THEY pay for the results. If you cannot afford to get the possible side effects of a vaccine, you sure couldn’t afford to get sick in the US! With COVID particularly, immunity only lasts about 4 months after one has been infected – and some people have gotten COVID again. At least some people can get it over and over. The vaccines give a longer-term immunity.
COVID vaccines are not experimental, unless you are a participant in a study. If you don’t know you are a participant, it is not a legitimate study, and that has the effect that the data cannot be used in the US, UK, or the EU for ethical reasons. Of course they continue to monitor after the drug has been brought to market – everything is being monitored after-market – even those things approved by the 1911 safety act.
Beth, thank you for all the interesting information on Covid vaccines. I have my first shot scheduled for tomorrow and find what you’ve written reassuring. This has been a contentious issue here and I can certainly respect the opinions of those who are distrustful of the medical industry and big pharma – after all, look what they’ve pulled with women’s so-called healthcare and all the nonsense they peddle to us with paps, etc.. But I’m willing to take a leap of faith with this one. Even though there are still unknowns since the vaccines are so new, what is known and is a fact is that Covid can be, and often is, devastating and deadly to those who are unfortunate enough to catch it. The way I see it, drastic times call for drastic measures, and this is one of those times.
Populations which have been used and abused by the medical and pharma industries, which includes people of color, especially in the US The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment being the most notorious, but there have been many more. Enslaved black women were used to come up with the whole field of gynecology. Look up J. Marion Sims for details. There have been all sorts of things from radiation experiments to surgical experiments to nutrition experiments which focused on women, people of color, or especially women of color. It makes for a lot of distrust.
In my, and many here, experience it’s been a variant on the joke about the used car salesmen: You can tell when a doctor (used car salesman) is lying because their lips are moving.
Fortunately, in these days of available information, including high-quality information, we can find the actual studies, data, conclusions, discussions and read them for ourselves, not having to rely on a physician who subscribes to very-expensive printed journals. Different studies and research done by various institutions, each with their own potential conflicts of interests, and done in various countries are now available to us. What I do, whether researching SARS-Cov-2 or cervical cancer or hysterectomy rates or infection vectors and rates, is look at the medical journals and medical sites run by various governments. Those reading here are fortunate in that the language of science is English, and people reading this blog can certainly read English. My frequent “haunts” are The New England Journal of Medicine, the British Medical Journal, and the Lancet. Additionally, my (US) State Library Commission has subscribed to an online scientific (and other) datatabase that makes it simple and free to look up anything in a journal with a State ID or License, or Library Card issued in the State. You can find everything from the latest studies on COVID vaccines to the issue of vaccine hesitancy to rates of CC or any other disease, treatments for those diseases, and on and on to any level you want to read. This shocked my husband’s orthopedic surgeon when we’d read of a new treatment for my husband’s condition – him saying that it had just been published THAT MONTH, and he’d only read about it a few days prior! It got him to look into it more though. 🙂 More evidence that an actually informed patient is likely to get far better treatment! And, how shocked doctors are that patients can access and read and evaluate high-quality information.
The New England Journal of Medicine has made ALL of their COVID articles, including comments and opinions on them FREE for anyone. For instance, https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2106315?query=RP If you sign up with your email for their mailing list, you can read up to 3 articles which they usually charge for, each month free as well.
Some articles in the British Medical Journal are also free, with no sign up. For instance, https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1005 which says that the risk of blood clots from COVID-19 is 10 times higher than the risk for blood clots from the vaccine. thelancet.com (The Lancet) is another source of high-quality medical information. Their COVID-19 area https://www.thelancet.com/coronavirus has high-quality information too. Many reputable universities have good information as well, on COVID, cervical cancer, the benefits and harms of (frequent) pelvic exams on asymptomatic women, etc. With any university or article though, look for who paid for the study, what associations the contributors have, and whether they have an interest in a particular outcome. It doesn’t mean that it’s wrong, but it means to look elsewhere for confirmation. Of course, look at the university – is it a reputable university that you’ve heard of, or is it a new fly-by-night university that is an extension of a corporation or other group that has their own set of reasons for existing?
Actually, a recent Oxford study showed that the blood clot issue is about the same for the two mRNA and the two viral vector vaccines. Last I recall, Oxford was considered a pretty reliable university.
“During the meeting, committee members hailed the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines as great alternatives to the J&J vaccine because there were “no safety signals” — suggesting, unlike the J&J and AstraZeneca adenovirus-based vaccines, mRNA vaccines are not associated with blood clots.
On Tuesday, Peter Marks, director of the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research at the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), said on a call with reporters there had been no reported cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) with thrombocytopenia (low blood platelets that can cause dangerous internal bleeding) following Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
But Mark’s statement contradicts numerous news reports, recent studies and even a scientist’s warning directed specifically to Marks late last year — it also contradicts data from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS).
Utilizing a search criteria that included reports of blood clots associated with blood coagulation disorders, VAERS yielded a total of 795 reports for all three vaccines from Dec. 14, 2020 through April 1, 2021.
Of the 795 cases reported, there were 400 reports attributed to Pfizer, 337 reports with Moderna and 56 reports with J&J — far more than the eight cases under investigation, including the two additional cases added Wednesday.
A study released today by Oxford University found the number of people who developed CVST blood clots after COVID vaccines was about the same for Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca, MarketWatch reported. (J&J is not approved for use in the EU, where the study originated).
According to the study, 4 in 1 million people experienced CVST during the two weeks following vaccination with the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, versus 5 in 1 million people for the AstraZeneca vaccine.”
They keep wondering why the very clear data on blood clots for mRNA is being downplayed and ignored. Why they don’t follow the money is beyond me. Plenty of organizational heads these days have investment interests or a corporate payout, and a lot of them are connected to the new mRNA tech. Which explains why “Marks” up there is blatantly, demonstrably lying about the data and pretending mRNA is 100% safe while the rest is rank poison.
My problem is that the issues with the mRNA are being ignored or downplayed in the media while the viral.vector issues are being overhyped. And the fact that the free pass in the media vaccine is the newest and most profitable tech that is only now being really used on humans (yes, it is very experimental, and no amount of word salad will change that fact, we don’t really have good long term info and there are definite risks in using the body itself as a spike protein factory as many doctors have voiced concern about and were subsequently screamed down as nuts by the media) fits for ight in with what we’ve seen before re:big pharma corruption.
And if vaccine makers have always been un-sueable,then why did they lobby recently for total liability immunity? Why lobby for something you already had?
The fact that the entire media and government and even hyped-up individuals seem to be trying to herd and even force me in the direction of mRNA and limit any alternatives is extremely suspicious to me.
I recently heard about the Novavax protein subunit vaccine and after reading about it, I feel infinitely more secure in this one. I wasn’t thrilled about viral vector, but I was far more confident in it than in mRNA. It seems this one doesn’t use the human body as a spike protein factory and is a far more traditional option that has a longer history with better safety data on human use, and very few adverse or serious reactions. This is one I think I can accept. It should be getting approved for use in the US soon, and is already in manufacture. Given its history of use, the fact that it was in development earlier than any.of the others, and its more traditional method, I might even give it a shorter time to work.out the bugs than I would viral vector.
I only worry how this even better option might get sabotaged or have its issues magnified to keep the lab rats herded toward the mRNA, only the mRNA, always mRNA, the traditional.vaccines you were told to trust are now rank.poison and only mRNA can save you, mRNA is the Way Truth and Light, wanting other more traditional options makes you a heretical anti-vaxxer! I never thought I’d see the day when trusting a more traditional vaccine with better safety history and keeping safety protocol up until I can get it would see me accused of being an uninformed dangerous anti-vaxxing lunatic!
I’ve written that the flu vaccine that worked best, from my experiences and observations, was the nasal live-disabled vaccine. You snort it up each nostril. No mercury or preservatives. No pain. No reaction. No getting sick.
My arm was sore after the first Pfizer shot. My husband’s arm was sore. He also felt like shit which peaked at 5 days. He had a very tight chest most of those days. No temp. That was abnormal for him even with asthma. We’ll see what injection #2 does… I’m told no preservative which is good.
I’m good with the technology regarding the vaccine.
What I don’t like are mans’ intentions. Are we really, truthfully, told what RNA is in that vaccine? Anything else?
We’ve been hosed by government and the media for far too long to accept this at face value.
Hi Allison good to see you back!! Like you I don’t trust the government or this vaccine, after all medics haven’t always told the truth! I work in a school and the pressure there to test 2 ce weekly and be vaccinated is intense
I’m 57 and really didn’t want the vaccine, I gave in over family pressure and got the Astra zenica one, 1 st dose. Since then more has come out about it and it’s not being offered for under 30/! I will not be having my second dose and have already told my family that and they didn’t pressure me. I think I read there were 79 cases of clots and 19 deaths which is nearly one quarter! No no and no? Ladies and Allison over to you, what do you think??
I know advice is if you had 1st dose ok then get 2nd but if under 30/ aren’t getting it, why can my age group? Who are surely more at risk of clots etc? I caved in 1st dose over, what will you do if you get long covid and that I’m very likely to get covid living and working in a high transmission deprived area, but equally I don’t want to end up disabled over a clot from the vaccine and I’m not willing to take any more risks…
Btw, yes I know people who have had COVID, land including family, no,this doesn’t change my mind. How we went from “people are monsters if they don’t wear a mask,wash hands,socially distance” to “people are monsters if they don’t submit to a shady situation where it is extremely reasonable to suspect it is a liability-free clinical trial and you can’t afford to be a guinea pig without compensation in a country where there is no universal healthcare and even having insurance can bankrupt you, even if you wear masks/wash hands/socially distance” I don’t know. Now I’m hearing the whole “masks are totally useless” rhetoric from mRNA fans, not just the usual whackos,almost as if its a propaganda effort, even though they insist vaxxed people still wear masks and distance but remember it’s still entirely useless folks and offers no actual.protection so get vaxxed but keep on your useless mask anyway! Yes,science once said masks and distancing work, now they suddenly magically dont work at all. And sadly, switching up horses like that and arguing inconsistently in real time (masks are useless get vaxxed,but keep wearing masks anyway,what do you mean I’m.contradicting myself?) does nothing to engender trust,and shaming and browbeating does even less. It’s literally the same tactics as the pro-pap crowd uses. Just push for more non-experimental non-mRNA options and let people choose the one they have most faith in based on their own damn research. Surely any vaccine is better than nothing. And if someone is being responsible when they do leave the house, and/or us waiting to see if the bugs get worked out before deciding, give them their space and just be happy they’re even considering it.
People who hype the mRNA ones as the only possible option really make me suspect they’re on the payroll. There’s nothing wrong with offering options to people who find your personal preference quite reasonably unacceptable or extremely suspect. I know one person whose family got COVID and though they chose to get the mRNA vax themselves, they don’t blame anyone who doesn’t want it or wants adifferent one or who wants to hold off for awhile so long as they keep being responsible with masks and social distancing. His only beef is with the people who keep going to concerts and bars and refusing to.mask up or distance.
Darn it,this was supposed to be an addendum.to my reply above.
I talked to my brother on the phone the other day and he said “ I think thats stupid that your not getting the covid vaccine. I said no I’m not . He thinks covid is not going to go down until the most of the population is vaccinated. He wants to blame the unvaccinated for being trouble makers. He did confess like many others I know that he got sick from it. I haven’t had a vaccine since I was under age. And don’t plan to ether. I don’t trust it and the nurse that gave it to my gma admitted that it lowers your immune system for awhile. So basically you might as well plan to be sick or injured from this vaccine and subject to bullying if you don’t. You never know what long term health problems this could cause that they can’t be help responsible for. The funny thing is my brother and sister-in-law both were vaccinated but called yesterday to tell us they can’t come to my gma birthday party because they are scared of Covid.
Where do you live?
We’re told as well that a booster is or will be needed toward end of year.
Makes us more suspicious.
I live in the South Eastern region of the United States.
Kleigh. You realize that, like everything else medical, it’s a risk/benefit trade-off. Anyone taking any of the COVID vaccines on the market anywhere in the world has a fairly-high chance of having a mild reaction from the vaccine – pain, aches throughout the body, low-grade fever. Almost none of these have required hospitalization. Meanwhile, just in the US, 570K people have lost their lives to COVID – which is well above the number who were killed in WW2. That took 4 years, this has been just over a year.
Vaccinations are well-documented to be of more benefit to populations than they are to individuals. Even at the 95% efficacy rate, with an extremely low instance of serious reactions requiring medical attention, any particular person can have the problem. 1 in a million may die from the J&J vaccine, vs the 1 in 600 (so far) who have died of COVID in the US.
The goal of the vaccine is for the population. You want each newly-infected person to infect fewer than 1 other person. If that happens the epidemic goes away. If each newly-infected person infects more than 1 other person, on average, it’s expanding and spreading.
The percentage who need to be vaccinated differs with the efficacy of the vaccine, the “natural” spread-rate of the disease (e.g., measles can spread to about 15 more people on average. SARS-CoV-2 spreads to about 3), and several other inputs. Epidemiologists – scientists who study this and do the math – have determined that about 70% of the population needs to be vaccinated with vaccines which are 90-95% effective to get this number lower than 1. Given that some people cannot be vaccinated, such as children and people with certain diseases and conditions, and allergies to the components, we need to have as many as possible get the vaccine. To do otherwise is to ensure that the current rules of masking and social distancing, limitations on gatherings, limitations on travel, limits on restaurants and public transportation, are going to continue… for as long as people choose to not get vaccinated.
Moreover, the more people who have COVID the more opportunities there are for more variants. Some of the variants so far have made it easier to spread – hence the new recommendation to use 2-ply masks – or 2 masks. Some of them will make it more severe.
Vaccines are not perfect for any individual. 1 in 20 will get COVID anyway. The good news is that very few of those fully-vaccinated with any of the vaccines marketed worldwide have serious cases requiring hospitalization. It’s still prudent for a vaccinated person to follow the guidelines to avoid contracting COVID for as long as this epidemic lasts.
Death or “getting over it” are not the only possibilities. Some have “long-COVID”. Some have a lifetime of disabilities. It’s more of a blood-clotting disease than it is respiratory. Some have damage to organs with ACE proteins, making the next round of the disease even more damaging to them.
Immunity conferred from a natural infection lasts 4-6 months after someone has COVID. So, you can get this over and over. It’s currently being studied if COVID boosters will be recommended, as there are new variants, simply because RNA viruses are more prone to errors in their reproductive process. Similar to AIDS in that way, one can determine where they got it and where they spread it. This will be done when you’ve got conditions that cost hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars, per case, to treat or live with. Governments and insurance companies will find someone who is responsible for the damage. If their actions were reckless and they chose to put others at risk, they will likely be sued, their wages garnished. They will have to be shown to be acting with disregard to human life to get them imprisoned for (attempted) murder/manslaughter, but that’s a possibility for some – considering the laws involving the knowing spread of AIDS.
That all being said, I’ve had both shots of Moderna. I was pretty sick, with a mild fever and digestive effects for almost 3 days. I had no need to seek medical attention. It sure as heck beats spending weeks or months on a ventilator, with all sorts of instruments inserted in every orifice of my body, and leaving that hospital completely broke and homeless without even a change of clothing.
So, I have to assume all of the vaccine-hesitant or even those adamantly “I will NEVER receive the vaccination!” enjoy this “new normal” we’re living with with COVID. You’re all but ensuring that this will continue for the rest of human civilization.
Note that vaccines, at the end given with a great deal of thought and research about who or where, ended smallpox – a scourge of humankind. The notion that we’ll create another one even with a vaccine that can prevent it is ludicrous.
I agree with you to a point. And we did go through and get our 2nd Pfizer shot.
I have problems with the origin of this virus as I do the vaccine.
I do not feel the origin was natural. This came out of nowhere with a warped ability to cause the body to kill itself via the immune response.
Why would they go for the RNA vaccine if the effects wear off in 6 months? What’s the point? I cannot help but wonder what’s next.
Meanwhile, there’s viral vaccines that provide life lasting protection. Why not simply create a vaccine like that? Do we really need to outsmart ourselves by creating a custom vaccine? Again, what’s the point?
Then, let’s say there’s obedient compliance. And governments say we need more shots. Pretty soon this becomes another monster imposed upon us like pap.
Nothing like a crisis to make the citizens accept change.
It’s the effects of natural immunity, from actually getting a case of COVID-19, which wear off in 4-6 months. Immunity from the vaccine lasts at least a year – based on the Titers from the first people who took the vaccine in clinical trials. They are taking some those people – who voluntarily signed up to be part of a research project, and giving them a booster. They want to see if there are any adverse effects from having an additional shot. The purpose is to vaccinate against variants which “escape” the vaccines out there now. RNA viruses are notorious for mutating – most of the mutations don’t go anywhere, but a few of them make it more transmissible (e.g., the UK variant which is now the dominant strain in the US), or more serious or more deadly.
If this was deliberately engineered, and is a bio-weapon, even more we need to be fully motivated to fight it and prevent its spread. To do otherwise would be the equivalent of if someone during a WW2 blackout raid would have shone spotlights rather than turn out the lights and use blackout shades/drapes. Had someone done that in WW2, their neighbors would have rightly been irate – and they would be arrested, at least partly for their own safety. Why would anyone try to make a bio-attack on their country/community worse by cooperating with the disease and its spread?
I’m not convinced that it was genetically engineered, although I’ve seen some claims and poor-quality research that it is. There is far better evidence the other way – that this was a natural thing. Note that serious global pandemics happen about once per century.
The reason that there are several mRNA vaccines, several genetically-engineered DNA vaccines based on adenovirus,and one pretty-conventional vaccine is that the virus DOES mutate so quickly. It’s the same reason that we’ve never had a vaccine from the common cold, which ~20% of are coronaviruses of various sorts. It’s the same reason we haven’t developed an effective HIV vaccine in 40 years of trying.
There have been other coronavirus outbreaks which are far more serious and deadly than SARS-CoV-2. Nipah virus periodically breaks out. It’s transmitted in about the same ways as COVID, the flu, or common cold, except it’s 30-40% fatal. We’ve been lucky so far in that it’s broken out in areas of SE Asia with authoritarian governments who kept people where they were, in the affected region of the country, until the outbreak went away…. then repopulated those areas.
I haven’t posted for a while , although I look in most days we have been real busy at work and not had much free time lately, it makes me feel guilty as you bunch have helped me so much, thank you, thank you, thank you. I look around other sites for any thing of use here and even venture onto medical sites yuk. The one I’m on at the minute is one called pubmed but the the reasearchers among you here will have come across this no doubt. Some of the people on there are unbelievable most of them are doctors and some of them are quite insane , the section I’m on at the minute they are whining that graduates today are finishing training without getting enough training in regards to pelvic exams because of restricted measures put into place to reign in their free for all from the past , it really is quite sickening to read ,they honestly can’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to do whatever they want to women. I wanted to comment but it wouldn’t let me? I wanted to put a comparison on where a girl gets drunk at a party and passes out and she gets taken advantage of, and them aneasthetizing someone and then doing the same the only difference being if the guy at the party is caught he goes to prison they are encouraged and paid for it, I know this practice has supposed to have been stopped, but some of the comments are recent so I wonder if they still sneak a few in , from some of the comments it appears to still be in operation ( not just the consensual ones ) all they have to say is it was an essential part of the surgery and required and away they go again , they really are disturbed! I know I’ve thanked you before, but thank you again ,now I’ve been informed by you and gone on to look deeper into this I am constantly on my guard .
Love to all Helper xx.
Just found this on a site called
Refinery 29 com . It’s an article by a journalist called Sarah midkiff about a report from the Cleveland clinic in the USA by dr Laura dean a specialist in breast cancer she has released a report on the side effects of the covid vaccines Moderna and Pfizer bioNtech both of which use technology called mRNA . The study reveals that the Moderna vaccine can cause swelling of the lymph nodes nearest the breast of the injected arm in 11% of people rising to 16% on the second injection the Pfizer vaccine shows the same effect on 0.3% of its vaccinations both vaccines will make the area tender to the touch for up to 10 days, but if you undergo a mammogram the enlarged lymph nodes will show up as an abnormal scan for up to a month after vaccination, so if you do self checks as myself and Jules do and find something doesn’t feel right it may be due to the injection so don’t panic.
love helper xx.
Hi ladies ,
I’ve been back onto that site pubmed and found a reply to a doctors post about training new doctors,and how it was beneficial to woman for them to comply with requests for student doctors to take part in their treatment, as this would lead to better treatment for women in the future.The guy who replied said he was in full agreement that future doctors should be taught to a high standard and understood that this must be difficult with restrictions and refusals in place and trained teaching models so expensive, so if these exams were so important to their progress of these new physicians maybe he could volunteer his wife and daughters to help out,only just stopped laughing what a brilliant reply!( and from a guy ) hope this tickled you as much as it did me
Love Helper xx.
Bad as that sounds, a father doctor volunteering his wife/daughter…my husband knows a doctor who did just that. He further delivered his grandchild. Is that yucky or what?! What does he think? …”oh yeah, this reminds me of when I gave you a suppository as a child when you were vomiting…” Gag.
Even with that, the grimmer point is that he had no clue what pain was and he did epesiotomies a lot.
Cat and mouse,
Wow just freaking wow, that is so wrong on so many levels. What the hell is he thinking, his poor wife must have no self esteem whatsoever, that’s one woman that needs to look at grounds for divorce, and as for his daughter, if she still lives in the family home she needs to get outta there faster than a rat up a drainpipe, that’s one disturbed sob. To actually whore them out to his medical cronies shows he has no respect for them at all, and mores the point what respect would he show
to his patients if he’s prepared to do this to his supposed loved ones,he’s a very disturbed individual
love helper xx.
Testing? A comment of mine didn’t post. Am I now banned from FWEO for having reasonable doubts about the early covid vaccines and wanting to hold out for one I actually feel some measure of confidence in? Have the people who have been wrongly accused of being anti-vax for not giving gynecology unquestioning submission and for doing their own research started wrongly accusing those who do their own research and choose a different vaccine of being anti-vax?
I have also posted a couple of comments that have not come up, so it’s more likely to be a glitch in the system. It seems this vaccine has gotten everybody on edge and can turn families and friends against each other, it would be a travesty if this happened to the women on this site having been so supportive of each other for so long this is an individual choice the same as female exams, to get the vaccine is a choice of the pro’s and cons and some will feel it’s necessary, and others will be uncertain, all of us have our own take on this vaccine, let’s leave this debate behind for now ,after all we are like the musketeers ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL.
Love helper xx.
We are sort of friends with my pharmacist. They are giving out the Pfizer vaccine.
I’d shared my husband’s reaction here. We were told his reaction must be reported.
Turns out there’s a lot of info we weren’t told. Like the possibilities of reactions like what it did to my husband.
The pharmacist’s mother also had a vigorous immune response. With her depression also was a side effect.
Truthfully, we dread the next one.
We were told to get 4 days of food prepared in advance. Or to do delivery.
And we’re supposed to go through this again come Autumn?
Yeah, I’ll do it. When we have fair elections again. Seriously though? If the flu vaccine did this, or any of the others in mass population numbers there’d be trouble.
Actually, this did already happen. The only problem were the victims couldn’t speak before nor after so we couldn’t hear in their own words how they felt before–and after. Our kids.
I was just kind of amazed since I never said don’t do it,just that the media reporting is suspiciously biased in favor of a single method, and that I’m.glad there are alternatives to mRNA now and upcoming so people can have some options, whether based on what method they are confident in or personal physical limitations to one or another method. I was behind stoked to hear about the Novavax one, because tbh I’m very uncomfortable with the possible long term safety of using my body to produce cells for my immune system to attack, and this method seems far safer. But there are a surprising lot of people who get incensed that anyone would have the audacity to think they get to choose which vaccine is injected into their personal body!
Its been amazing to hear so many people in recent months mislabelling me as an anti-vaxxer entirely because of having well-founded concerns about a single vaccine method while being perfectly willing to consider another! Lol! It really has stirred up a lot of feeling, that’s for sure!
Fact is, if someone wants mRNA, go for it. But just as I’d hope someone might get a pap after getting all the info, I’d hope no one favors mRNA based on the media slant that its 100% safe with no problems while the rest is rank poison. And I’d hope my decision to stay masked and distanced up until a vaccine I feel confident and safe about is approved,which shouldn’t be long. Its not like I’m going out unnecessarily,bare faced and breathing on everyone else in the meantime.
Yes, as time goes on there are more choices and options available on the vaccines. The Astrazennica/Oxford vaccine is not an mRNA vaccine, more “conventional”. The Sputnik vaccine is a more conventional vaccine, note the discussion in The Lancet that there seems to be a big difference between the Sputnik in Russia and the Sputnik export vaccine. Sinovac (Chinese) I also believe is not an mRNA vaccine.
mRNA vaccines have been tested in humans since the 1970s. They seem quite safe. The only reason they were not used previously is that before they were out, the epidemic they were to solve went away, with or without another vaccine.
Nothing medical is without risk. Nothing at all in life is 100% safe.
I was hesitant on these new vaccines, and the “new” mRNA technology in the beginning, and that was made worse with the politicization of the whole thing. I educated myself, read numerous studies done with numerous funding sources by different types of organizations in different countries, and I wanted any of these vaccines. Moderna, offered through my county health department, was the first one made available to me, so that’s what I took.
Has anyone seen google search today? the picture of a woman examining a sample and what looks to be a cervix being swabbed. They are celebrating this invention. I’m sick of this mess. I wish the Me Too movement would cover this. Internal screening that’s forced on woman. Lack of consent.
Hi KLEIGH! Had a look at it, its actually an egg being fertilised, like in IVF. its not a cervix, thank god….
Thank God my bad. I remember google did celebrate the doctor that invented the pap last year. I felt it was so disrespectful to woman. A picture of a woman with her legs open and a doctor with a swab right on google search.
I’d like to see that.
Has anyone seen the conversation on twitter after Steph McGovern had a smear test live on air on her lunchtime show? It’s so awful, the usual ‘it’s so easy, just get on and do it and don’t be a wuss’, ‘if you can get a wax, you can do this’ and even that women who don’t go should be slapped. There are actually quite a few people saying how they would have liked barriers such as trauma to be mentioned but of course they are being shouted down. The guests for that segment for the show were the father who has founded the ‘smear campaign’ and his little boy. It’s tragic that they lost their wife and mother but he is spearheading a campaign to lower the age limit (with all the associated risks that brings) and to test for cell changes in the first instance instead of HPV which would have a direct impact on self sampling. Of course, he’s also selling the screening without any mention of risks and benefits and has engaged with the awful actress who advises young women to pay to have a test before they reach 25 and pay to have one annually and spreads misinformation about cell changes ‘happening overnight’ and self sampling being dangerous.
Makes me so angry to see a man dictating what should happen to women’s bodies and how women are just lapping it up in typical hysterical fashion. Also depressing to see a female GP ‘teaming up’ with him and thereby endorsing the message even against all medical evidence to the contrary. There’s also a male psychotherapist (empathy, anyone?) in the twitter comments reprimanding a lady who has experienced sexual violence talking about the importance of mentioning trauma in the discussion. According to him, the most important thing was to advertise the importance of the smear and any discussion around trauma should be ‘saved for another day’. I honestly despair.
In a way I feel bad commenting about this because I’m so aware the campaign was born out of a very tragic and traumatic loss and that this man is grieving. However, I’m just so concerned that it is feeding into the myths and misinformation around screening and has the potential to cause harm to women. I don’t have anything against a campaign to support women who want to take up screening and educate women on cervical cancer in a factual, balanced way, but will always struggle with anything that is focused around uptake alone and not equipping women to make informed decisions about their health.
I don’t have an awful lot of sympathy for him, if I’m honest. He claims to be a mental health instructor (whatever that means) but he seems to have a few issues of his own. A friend of mine on Twitter tried to engage with him but he comes across as a bit of a narcissist. He IS perpetuating long held myths and misinformation, and his struggles with losing his ex-partner (not his wife, got that wrong!) should not give him a free pass to do so.
As you say, women deserve balanced information. We’ve been subjected to a great deal of emotional manipulation over the years, we’ve been fed lies, bullied, blackmailed and shamed, they’ve used every dirty trick in the book to coerce women into unwanted testing purely to reach government targets. So forgive me if I’m harsh towards him and his pointless crusade, but obsessives like him are part of the problem, not to mention the toxic behaviour these campaigns encourage.
It would appear to me that this man who has lost his partner, is engaging in a sort of magical thinking. He seems to think that “if only she’d had her smear test” she would still be alive. Sorry. This smear test is pretty ineffective at picking up actual positive results, worse at determining which of them are actually dangerous, which will resolve on their own, and which will have a progression rate so slow that there’s no chance of it becoming a problem in the woman’s lifetime. Moreover, the smear tests discourages actual diagnostic testing in women who have symptoms of CC – or other gyn cancers which the PAP has no effect on, or even as a theoretical way to test. It gives women, their families, and some of their doctors, a false sense of security.
He’s in pain. He’s frustrated. He wants to blame something and also add value to her after the fact.
Too bad he’s not aware of what he’s talking about.
If we could only count on the news coverage to be fair and balanced.
Then they could say that pap saves lives and it’s recommended that every woman has one yearly.
Then in the next breath they could tell us how useless, inaccurate, and what a total waste of time paps are. They could also discuss the guessing game called interpreting pap.
End the broadcast by showing a hamster running on its wheel.
Yeah, I’ve seen the video – what a load of tripe! You don’t get to see a damned thing, not even the equipment used – the doctor (associated with one of the pink charities, what a surprise) is either hiding away behind the modesty sheet, or she’s off camera completely. The diagrams in the sales brochure they send with the invitations are more informative.
And as for the founder of the campaign, he’s woefully ill-informed and seems to think he’s in the right because lots of other equally ignorant women are supporting him. His wife had regular tests and was diagnosed too late because doctors brushed her off when she reported with symptoms. So how does he tackle this recurrent problem of doctors dismissing symptoms? More screening! Testing from a younger age. Co-testing. At a time when the NHS is struggling to survive, can’t provide quality care for those most in need and shouldn’t be spending money chasing the worried well, he wants extra testing.
He proclaims he wants women’s voices to be heard – but only the ones who agree with him.
I know his mind’s been on other things lately, but there’s been a tsunami of smear test awareness these past few years, yet he still thinks we need more? His pitiful campaign is just a repeat of the same old publicity stunts, spewing out the same tired old propaganda… and he thinks hes doing something revolutionary.
And why has he started a funding page, begging for cash to ‘raise awareness and support cancer sufferers’ when there’s a big pink charity raking in huge sums of money that’s meant to be doing all that?
Ah yes, discussion around trauma should be ‘saved for another day’… meaning ‘we’ve convinced the fanatics that all non-attenders are moronic snowflakes – can’t admit that was a lie now, can we? So let’s not have an honest discussion about it. Ever.’
You raise really important points Kate about the harm being caused and I must admit that I’m also very uncomfortable with a child in the midst of his grief being put on television and social media in this way. I think the fact that a child is involved is what’s making me reluctant to speak out and engage, for fear of being seen as the ‘negative nelly’ or being accused of bullying a vulnerable child. Campaigns and TV segments like this are so ironic though. They claim to be all about engaging women who don’t attend and then whenever they get feedback from said women, they shout them down, ignore them and often paint them as ‘dangerous’ or bullies.
Kat – sadly my efforts could not bring this woman to any form of logic. I think we ended the discussion on “they’re dangerous and will cost women their lives and need to be administered by a medical professional, end of”.
Thing is, Beth, he’s well aware that she had regular tests and was failed by her doctors. But he’s brushing over that fact and obsessing over the uptake rates.
Thing is, Beth, he’s well aware that she had regular tests and was failed by her doctors. But he completely brushes over that and is obsessing over uptake.
Gem, you speak good sense! Over on the PHE blog, new post, seems they’re getting ready to roll with pilot self testing! They have chosen 3 swabs or brushes and started training personnel. Wonder what the die hard screeners will make of that one??
Thanks for that! I’ve just read it. That’s such good news. If rolled out, it will help break down barriers for those who want to have it and save many women from a traumatic and invasive test. The issues of informed consent and risks vs benefits will remain of course, but it’s a step in the right direction. I imagine there will be massive opposition to it though!
I have to wonder what the three self tests they have approved?
Do you believe the program will be set up to fail? Those tests selected, do they have better error rates than the 50% effective pap? It will be a long time that I will give them the trust they take for granted.
Here’s the link to the new study for self-testing in the UK. It’s tip-toeing in the right direction, study after study, pilot after pilot, but will we ever get the full roll out? It includes details and photos of the 3 tests they’ve chosen.
Thanks for sharing the info re these self-test kits. I enjoyed reviewing them. Educational and then some.
Each site was amazing vague and happy re these products. Each was overflowing with confidence about how patient friendly each product was; and how each wouldn’t be painful.
However only one commended about its product NOT causing micro abrasions. This is very important. In the long run I feel this single component will determine how women feel about it overall and how successful the program becomes. As it is, only one product here will prevent or reduce colposcopy in women infected with HPV. I cannot conceive how authorities didn’t see this. If I see it, they should have known and foreseen criticism as I offer.
Each product works essentially the same way. You must have physical contact between the sample collection device and cervix. Each has “friendly” nylon bristles which do the dirty work. When you view the websites, you’ll notice the photos are clear but not THAT clear in revealing what these bristles are.
I noted before that similar collection devices used in pap and colposcopy, also noted as “patient friendly” and “friendly” “painless” bristles were a bait and switch. The bristles are not soft. They are stiff and are meant to scrape. Some of these also had brass or stainless steel wire bristles hidden under the nylon.
So much to patient friendly and harmless.
Each of these will cause micro trauma and abrasions. The last product by Aptima appeared, I stress, to have cotton instead of nylon but don’t quote me on that. I was not able to completely rule out what it is.
The point, as I’ve said comparing Trovagene to these types, is whether it’s truly passive collection, or if just a self collection device based on old technology.
Trovagene and Delphi are the only two which are truly passive. Trovagene used your morning urine sample to search for virus. Delphi used a lavage technique to passively harvest cells already discarded and trapped in cervical mucus.
IF you have HPV, you want the Delphi or the Trovagene types.
And I’ll note here Delphi doesn’t appear to me as approved…
IF you have HPV, the virus sits on the top layer of cells… As you know, ANYTHING that disturbs or abrades the tissues is giving the HPV virus a free pass into deep tissues where it can invade as it wants.
The so called patient friendly nylon bristles just infected you beyond your surface tissues. Fighting off the virus is all but impossible after that point.
So what’s the advantage, after the fact, of these self tests, if you’re doing harm to yourself in place of the doctor doing it?
IF any healthcare professional wishes to debate me on this…fire away!!
Reading the link to the pilot HPV testing in the UK: after the fanfare announcement, it says it is actually only 5,000 women from GP surgeries who will be taking part. Tiny numbers when they send out 4 million summons letters every year. My guess is that they are still only limiting self-testing to the most very vulnerable groups, who are at some risk but not tested in years. TBH I don’t think they give a damn about the rest of the population, who if they can be bullied into 3 tests in a lifetime are probably not at risk anyway.
Oh yes Gem I can see it now, those uninformed who will say “ but HOW can a woman perform a smear on herself?” not realising it’s a swab, so if you can insert a tampon you can insert a swab! Or the “now we have given the snowflakes who are too embarrassed to get their vaginas out a self test they have NO excuses now, they MUST test now…..”
Ugh, yes I can see all of those too. In fact, I did have a conversation with a woman once who just refused to accept that even a swab test was safe. Apparently it will lead to accidents and serious injury unless administered by a medical professional. Mind you, she claimed she was getting all this from the ‘nurses she worked with’. She didn’t have an answer when I mentioned the lack of serious injury related to STD self testing! And I don’t recollect reading about people being hospitalised due to covid tests either!
Gem…. luv it! You’re brilliant!!😸
Cat and Mouse, I think the whole cervical screening programme is broken, and the powers that be are finally recognising this! Women aren’t being swayed by tv adverts, awareness campaigns, newspaper articles telling them not to be scared of smears, or maybe even pressure from their doctors to screen. Some amazing young women like our Helper and Jules are opting out before even their first “invitation “! Hopefully more and more are finding out for themselves and declining. Let’s hope they roll out the self test for those who wish to screen! Though as I said above, I can see pressure being put on the so called silly snowflakes, now you don’t have to get your vagina out in public so you must test now!!
Hi kat, thanks for the mention but to be honest it was a no brainer ,once I had the information i needed the decision was easy. I feel blessed for Jules and everyone else on here for the guidance recieved,being able to avoid the dangers of this exam has given me piece of mind , unfortunately Jules didn’t escape completely unscathed and had three tests, one when she was about 14 because of a problem she had , I don’t remember much about it ( a very painful and heavy flow) only that she used to lay on the sofa with her head on dads lap and he spent ages stroking her hair and mom making endless hot water bottles for her tummy , after a couple of days mom thought it was best to go to the doctor (our childhood doctor, male)she came back as white as a sheet(no cervical screen but she had to have a pelvic exam) and refused to talk about it, the next was her 25 yr scheduled exam ,which she says was done by the nurse and was uncomfortable but bearable, she has told me not to write about her third time she will tell this herself when she’s ready but after ‘‘this one she decided not to attend again” , I just wish she could have found this site sooner herself. everyone here is incredible, many , many thanks and much love Helper xxx.
WTF?? They smeared a 14 year old for a heavy periods?? Sick! Jules my heart goes out to you. Helper, your right, the women here including yourselves are amazing, the support and advice I’ve had here over the years is something I’m so so grateful for!
Just catching up on the latest comments and what sticks out to me is the fact that these minor celebrities that pop up from time to time to “educate us “ are so misinformed themselves, the tv presenter Steph McGovern is in a same sex relationship so she would at the lower end of the scale for infection of hpv if any risk at all So it seems to me that even when these people inform us ,that they are still misinforming us ,as their view is completely bias. If programs like this are to be shown it should be objective with views from both sides but this is highly unlikely to happen as they know they would end up on fire if they came across anybody with knowledge on this, and as for the guy on the programme I’m sorry for his and his sons loss but if she undertook all of her smear invites and it didn’t save her why is he trying to impose this test on others why is it so hard for him to understand we can make our own minds up and don’t need his input .
Just posting the latest uptake figures for screening in the UK. Figures only go up to end of March 2020. Cervical screening uptake for under 50s had fallen 1% to 68.3% just before the lockdown in April 2020. Breast screening uptake had slumped a full 10% down to just 55% uptake. There will be no figures from April-September 2020. Let’s hope they don’t ever recover.
No doubt the powers that be,will put the failing numbers down to the corona virus epidemic and in no way admit that it’s their test that’s the problem, but in the future when they cannot blame the virus and the figures are still falling what excuse will they use next, they appear to of used them all up, maybe this is the actual turning point and the demise of this horrid test
Hugs Jules x.
Sorry just seen they didn’t smear a 14 year old but a vaginal exam at 14 isn’t much better!
Hi kat, no smear was involved , just the finger bobbing, but just think what that was like at the age of 14 1/2 at this time I had , had no involvement with boys at all so this was a little traumatic for me , the doctor tried to be gentle and reassuring and mom was their with me holding my hand , I was just lying their trembling and I just turned my head away from mom and the doctor as I couldn’t look at them while this was being done to me. at one point I thought I was going to be sick After the exam when I had dressed the doctor said he knew the exam could be upsetting for girls but that he needed to rule out any serious problems I might have , he talked some more about stuff mainly to mom I don’t think I was paying much attention due to the shock and embarrassment of what had just happened, i was given two different tablets to take ,one was iron tablets and can’t remember what the others were and he said if I had the same problem next month to come back and see him again, and they would do some blood tests but whatever it was cleared,whether it was the tablets or just got better I don’t know, and since then everything has been pretty normal thank god and hopefully stays that way
hugs Jules x.
How traumatic, I’m so sorry to hear that happened. I saw one of those parenting ‘vlogs’ once where people give way too much information about their children to the whole internet. The mother was taking her preteen to the OBGYN “because she had started her periods” . Afterwards, she said “I really wasn’t sure what to expect, like I wasn’t sure whether they would want to do a pap smear or not but in the end they didn’t.” The way she said it was like she would have just gone along with it if they had wanted to – on a 12 year old!!! I was beyond disturbed and no, I don’t know why I watched it either!
God, I have nightmares that my sister will do this to her kids. Since having kids,she’s gotten on the pap carousel and while we are sisters and do love each other, there’s always been a sort of…contempt in her towards me too. I told her about the issues with pap.and that if I was concerned I’d go for an hpv self-test as I’m.a virgin and she’s in a monogamous relationship, but she dismissed me as being just a child who doesn’t like being touched and doesn’t care enough about my health unlike her, who has kids to think about. (I’m older than her, but it is common knowledge in my family that there’s a perimeter I have for touching and I’m uncomfortable with it unless I’m fairly well-acquainted with the other person, and I do think about her kids because if anything happened to her I might need to step up, and I already do that a lot now just to make things easier on her).
Then someone at work told her about how easy it is to get a false positive pap,like, the wrong bath soap could cause an”abnormality”. I pointed out that that is exactly what I told her that she didn’t believe,but I don’t think it got through. A random stranger was reliable,but not me.
And I have worried like hell that my beloved little nieces will be brought in for the Roto rooter treatment without question on some perverted doctor’s demand when they get older. I mentioned it to my mom,and she was horrified as she hadn’t even considered that might happen–shes already concerned about the medical merry-go-round sis is already trapped on and hadn’t realized she might do the same to her kids. Esp if the doctor gives her the “so they don’t have hang ups later” spiel, given her contempt for my position on it as “childish embarrassment and mental illness”.
Jules that’s horrendous! Thinking of you x
Some great research here to try and find out if women with postmenopausal bleeding can be spared the brutally painful outpatient hysteroscopy procedure, where a rod with a camera on the end is shoved throught the cervix into the womb and integral pincer tools can cut off suspicious looking bits of womb lining. Not fun, and often done in the UK without any anaesthetic, so women can skip merrily off to work afterwards. What actually happens is that many are so deeply traumatised from the severe pain, that they have to lie down afterwards and suffer PTSD for years.
This study looks at using urine (who’d have guessed it?) and none other than the Delphi Screener, which I seem to remember Elizabeth saying has mysteriously been withdrawn from the Australian markets, for fear women might start using it for HPV self-testing for cervical cancer. The Delphi screener now appears to have come out tops as the most reliable non-invasive tool for diagnosing endometrial cancer. Great news, but can’t help thinking the correct tools for diagnosing womens’ cancers have been around for years, but have been pushed aside to secure blind adherence to the pap smear programs.
There was an article in The Times today about using urine tests to detect prostate cancers. They could save a fortune on hysteroscopy by using a urine test, never mind saving women from the lottery of inhumane pain of what is becoming a routine screening test. Where is the will to do it?
Comfort and convenience with respect to men’s health care always seems to be paramount – women’s, not so much. As for hysteroscopy, there is very little will to substitute something non-invasive, at least not in the US in our profit-driven system. Here more is better, i.e., the more procedures doctors perform, the more money they make and gynecologists won’t benefit from something like a urine test. But at least women undergoing hysteroscopy are put under general anesthesia – after all, anesthesiologists have to eat too. /s
Your information today is probably the 2nd most important factoid I’ve read here!
I have a hysteroscopy in my future. It will be done under general. There was no way my husband would ever consent to me doing is w/o any anesthetic and analgesia. I’m very fortunate for this doctor.
I desperately want, please, that information about the Delphi Screener and endometrial cancer. I’ll see if my husband can track it down.
I posted the other night about the Delphi vs the “new” (old dumb idea) “patient friendly” brushes for self testing. Delphi is sold by one of those companies. The one who’s brush begins with “A”.
I think it’s the coolest thing medically since Trovagene. Meaning using Delphi for endometrial Dx. Passive biopsy collection is perfect.
What else I’d like to know, If a woman has endometrial cancer or similar awful disease, and her partner performs oral on her, to orgasm (or few), is he tragically exposed to HPV or the CC itself? Or for that matter endometrial? Would a woman carry more risk of oral to vaginal exposure?
Anybody else ever wonder?
Thanks kat, but it’s really ok ,I’ve dealt with it mentally, and I know mom only had my best interests at heart and at the time probably the doctor as well, I feel more sorry for the women who have difficulty mentally coping with this type of trauma and carry it around with ,them for years and it affecting their day to day existence that is why this site is so vitality important ( and the people on it)
Hugs Jules x.
It seems that your sister has become one of the sheep, and it may take some convincing to change her mind. But the main concern should be her children and her ideals should not be imposed on them, so maybe a change of tact would be in order, give them the talk on
stranger/ danger situations this is something your sister should not be opposed to ,but then make sure that they understand that this includes everyone including doctors, they may be able to protect themselves after this.
love helper x
I am afraid to do that, as she has threatened to isolate her kids from.me before, and the older one is very bonded to me and we would both be devastated. And should her mom do this horrible thing, she wouldn’t even have her aunt to comfort her and would likely have no one understand her problem.
Sorry Demonhype,I’ve tried,,but I can’t think of any other solution. Helper x.
Don’t worry about it, Helper. My mom is closer to my sister than anyone and unlike me,my sister actually takes her seriously, and even she’s unsure what to do in that eventuality or how to prevent it from happening. We’ve definitely discussed it and are at a loss.
I do hope that nothing like that happens for you. At least in the UK, we don’t subject children to anything invasive as a matter of course. Although, we do have a petition for gynaecological check ups from adolescence here by a woman on twitter who sadly had to go through cancer treatment because her symptoms were ignored. What I never understand is that conversations around symptoms being dismissed and women not being listened to are almost non-existent among these advocates – it all seems to centre around screening.
More money and power for them in screening and shipping up hysteria for it, whereas actually listening to female patients and taking their claims seriously means less power for them, but no extra money.
I’m becoming really concerned about the man who has recently started a smear test campaign. He dismisses any woman who mentions the barriers to screening, is advocating for the lowering of the age limit against medical evidence about the harms it can cause and is now advising women to contact NHS 111 to get them to book a smear test for them. People often use NHS 111 if they’re experiencing a medical event that might potentially be an emergency and they just won’t be able to get through if the lines are jammed by women trying to book smear tests! I also did a deep dive into his twitter and saw some really unpleasant comments to people on various topics that no respectable ‘campaign’ would ever make.
He seems to think that his own bereavement gives him carte blanche to push through his own agenda without listening to any alternative viewpoints or feedback from women about the potential negative impact of his messaging, or the changes he is pushing for. He claims to be ‘giving women a voice’ but he then belittles women who share an experience of finding screening difficult. Any push back and he just responds with “and you need to think about my trauma. I’m doing something amazing here”.
I’ve also been reading up on co-testing and, whilst I’m no medical professional so can’t understand all of the nuances, I came across studies which have said it markedly increases over-diagnosis. Meanwhile, he is pushing it on his feed as the answer that will ‘save many lives’. It’s scary, because he is now being given huge platforms and is being supported by ‘celebrity’ medical professionals which will be taken as an endorsement of his message. In fact, he has little to no grasp of any of the issues at hand, medical or emotional (apart from his own experience which seems to be the only thing that matters to him) but thinks his loss gives him the right to try and bring about changes which will have an impact on what is done to women’s bodies. I’m actually quite concerned about him.
So it sounds like NHS111 is like 9-11? Emergency line? Is that kind of granola even legal there? Because tying up emergency lines for none merge dies here in the US is a FLIPPING CRIME! He’d find that out in short order here, plus the bad PR when people field real emergencies because his army of misinformed women was clogging the line trying to make what is (legally speaking) a commonplace appointment and fretting that their elective coochie exams looking for imaginary problems was on the same level as a freaking heart attack.
It’s not exactly the same as 911, my understanding of it was that it’s like a triage line for people having a medical problem who aren’t sure what to do. They then give medical advice based on the level of severity i.e. whether to go to the emergency room, whether to call an ambulance, or make a GP appointment. However, sometimes, people are picked up who are experiencing an actual medical event who need urgent care and are then directed accordingly. I’ve only ever used it when I was really unwell/in pain and not sure whether to call 999 (our 911) or go to the emergency room. I was really feeling desperate, though, and wouldn’t have been impressed if I’d struggled to get through because it was being used as a booking line. The one thing I didn’t think it was is a glorified reception for booking screening tests! This is the website, in case you’re interested! https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/urgent-and-emergency-care-services/when-to-use-111/
Okay, so not quite as serious as 911 but not as casual as booking a non-emergency appointment for someone who knows what they think and what they want, that has nothing to do with medical uncertainty. Still sounds like there should be repercussions, as it sounds like there are medical emergencies on there. One person gets harmed or killed because they couldn’t get through for an actual problem in time because this jackass sicced his army of fainting fairy princesses onto the line to book their pablum exams in some mindless attempt at making a public statement and that is some bad PR for him.at least.
He’s also set himself up as a “charity” although as it’s not registered, there’s zero oversight of what he might be doing with any money well-meaning people might donate. He should not have been given such a big stage without proper vetting.
He’s also advocating for things that are potentially harmful. Anyone who points this out seems to get gets blocked.
I wouldn’t let it bother you too much, let the a..hole have his 15 minutes of fame and then watch him fall back into obscurity just as fast. This insignificant weasel sounds as if he would have made a wonderful understudy to the wonderful Rob music, and just remind me now,“where is he” lol !
Hugs Jules x.
Thank you. I actually find his campaign and the way he interacts with women a bit triggering to be honest and I don’t use that word lightly. It feels a bit abusive and narcissistic. Rob Music looked like the height of professionalism and empathy compared to this man! Thank goodness Mr Music is now confined to the domain of migraine and isn’t shaming women for their ‘ignorance’ any longer x
In the interests of fairness, I checked again and it says that “some women have used NHS 111” to someone talking about their surgery temporarily pausing screening. More like advising by stealth. Still not an appropriate use of the service though in my humble opinion and I don’t personally think it’s something to promote.
I honestly feel sorrow for anyone who has suffered a bereavement and understand wanting to do something positive with their grief. However, it’s not an excuse to talk down to and dismiss women sharing their experience of finding screening difficult in the way that this campaign does, or to ignore those concerned about the very real harms that could result from the changes the campaign is advocating for. The age is 25 for a reason – to protect young women from the harms that would result as it is unreliable in this age range. As explained repeatedly by medical professionals every time this is debated. What is really needed and should be front and centre in discussions is for women of all ages to be taken seriously when they present with symptoms. Almost every time a woman tragically loses their life and it makes the news, we hear that they were ignored or repeatedly fobbed off.
Some of the women who have tried to engage the campaign have shared their experience of trauma to show the need for sensitive conversations around screening (which so rarely happen) and he dismisses them every time, coming back at them with an attitude of “how dare you question me and tell me I’m wrong, just think of my trauma and be glad I’m trying to do something positive with it”. Not once have I seen a flicker of empathy for the women sharing their experiences, and that’s a problem. I know he is deep in his grief but he doesn’t seem to be open to anyone else’s opinion or experience. The conversations around screening are already so problematic in terms of one-sidedness, shaming, bullying and emotional manipulation, all of which go against the fundamental principle of informed consent that a more open dialogue was massively needed.
I also saw that the campaign said “nothing has been done for years” re cervical cancer awareness and support. I wonder how the women who volunteer on the Jo’s helpline etc. would feel about that. I have my issues with Jo’s Trust in terms of their messaging, but to see a women’s health campaign dismiss people who have volunteered their time and energy, many of whom are women with lived experience or people who will have suffered their own losses, is very jarring. A woman pointed out the work of Jo’s to him and, as he always does, he came back with “women are telling me different”. It’s so ironic that his response to WOMEN telling him something he doesn’t like to hear each time is to shut them down with “women are saying different”. It upsets me because I hate to see women being silenced on issues that impact them and what happens to their bodies.
If this was just one individual airing their views, especially someone who has suffered a loss, it would be one thing and I wouldn’t even pass comment. People are entitled to their opinion. But, I wouldn’t expect any of the above behaviour from a fully fledged campaign trying to present itself as legitimate. And I do think, irrespective of harrowing personal experiences which deserve the utmost sympathy, if you are going to start a national campaign to bring about changes which would impact upon what happens to women’s bodies, you have to expect women to give their opinion and at least be open to their perspectives. No doubt if he sees this he will see it as bullying and say that I’m ‘anti-screening’ (I am not, I am pro-informed choice and pro evidence-based medicine that balances risks and harms) but I have a right to comment on something that impacts me.
““how dare you question me and tell me I’m wrong, just think of my trauma and be glad I’m trying to do something positive with it”
Okay, this sounds less like honest bereavement and more like self-centered narcissism.and inability to empathize. As in ” I don’t care about anyone else’s trauma, my trauma is the only trauma that actually matters, no one but me really understands trauma, also you should admire and worship.me for my tireless efforts to put your needs first so long as they line up with my.own,and if they don’t you should shut your filthy female gob, and aren’t I such a true hero of women!”
Its all.about his own trauma and his own sense of entitlement to tell women what they are allowed to feel.while demanding admiration for being such a champion of women’s rights. He sounds like an abuser–shut up, b$%&#, I know better than you what’s important and I am more qualified to speak for you than you are, and how dare you even suggest otherwise, do you want me to start getting mad, now shut up and do as you’re told, and the lady will have the salad. Don’t you dare tell me you don’t want the salad, you will eat what I order for you or I will shove it down your throat for your own good.
Hi ladies, I’ve found a site that I don’t think I have seen mentioned on here before, and on it there is lots of info about new breakthroughs in cancer screening and new treatments being developed and new detection methods, not sure if I quite understand it all , but I’m sure a lot on here will, the site is called
Sciencedaily . com cervical cancer news, it’s got loads of reports from all over the world, and updates fairly regularly.
love helper x.
I can see that this guy is really upsetting you ( and probably others here to)
but don’t let him , it’s pretty obvious this person is totally uninformed about women’s healthcare, so pretty much everything he says should be treated to the contempt it deserves, and given no credence at all ,a favourite tutor of mine at uni used to use Latin phrases and in this guys case he would probably have described him as an “amentis” (Latin for imbecile) or “ negat cyrtae”( Latin for cretin.)His ignorance is proof of this, sympathy for his loss maybe deserved, his reasoning on this matter nothing at all. leave him behind and let’s get on with our own
Primum non nocere.
First Do No Harm .
hugs Jules x.
Thank you Jules. I think those are wise words. I’ll work on it and won’t post anything further about him here x
I wonder if all the women who are in agreement with this plank, will feel the same way when they are sitting in the colonoscopy chair getting chunks of cervix ripped off without aneasthetic or maybe a nice cone biopsy or two or even a nice soothing lletz procedure and all because somebody deemed these cells “might “become cancerous having been registered as abnormal, even though they may well resolve themselves through their own immune system given time, I think that it would be fair to assume some would have regretted listening to these uninformed saviours of womankind instead of being more proactive to their own health by research. ( Don’t tell anyone Gem but he really pissed me off too)
Hugs Jules x.
Ugh, I know. In my experience, they’re often the most evangelical because ‘they wouldn’t be here now’ if they hadn’t had the test and had half their cervix ripped out. However, I have seen some women at the very least say they feel traumatised because they hadn’t even know that was going to happen (the good old ‘see and treat’). I remember one woman saying something like that in one of the forums and someone coming back with “Oh, I’m sorry, but it’s important to remember you would have consented to the procedure. Hope that makes you feel better” – which seemed like a massive contradiction in terms. Consent should be informed and freely given at the time, not retrospective!
On a more positive note, I saw a tweet by Jo’s linking to their manifestos for Scotland and Wales. I only read the Scotland one but self-sampling was in there quite prominently. I honestly feel that if self sampling becomes a thing, a lot of the other issues will kind of fall away and conversations around informed choice will become easier. I think a lot of it stems from women trying to create positive narratives to avoid acknowledging how traumatic and intrusive the test is. However, I know that is a long way off and not helped by the misinformation about having to remove a sample of cervical cells yourself and stupid ‘celebrities’ fanning the flames by tweeting about how dangerous and unreliable self sampling is.
Gem, this woman missed the point: you could be laying there legs akimbo speculum in colposcope or whatever poised and you can still withdraw consent and say STOP! And if they don’t it’s an assault! But then who really listens to us silly women??
To Australian women:
Just heard in the news that Australian govt decided to look pretty and politically correct, and pledged more funding for women’s health in the next budget. Of course breasts and vaginas are the biggest focus, because there isn’t much else to women.
Instead of spending taxpayer money on what makes the real difference, they will keep peddling breast and cervical screening. Expect more spam, brainwashing and coercion, more butchered cervixes and radiated breasts, so that bureaucrats could reach their targets and politicians could tick their political boxes.
Hi Alice! Another Aussie chick here. Couldn’t have put it better myself! Noone is getting near my cervix and boobs, I’ve considered the evidence and opted out, unless I have symptoms (and I know what to look out for).
I thought dementia and heart disease were the main killers of women, but then that happens to old women and they don’t have the sex appeal to make money for the press and pink ribbon charities.
Kat, oh my goodness, absolutely. And, I’m quite sure the level of distress she was experiencing would have been evident during the procedure. Consent/lack thereof doesn’t have to be verbal and medics need to be trained to keep checking in with their patients to make sure they’re still giving (and able to give) consent. God, no wonder so many are traumatised and retraumatised, these are basic principles.
Precisely! Subjugating young women is much more “fun”, and way more profitable in both monetary and political aspect.
After all the goings on in Parliament House in Canberra of late ScoMo had to include something in the budget to placate women. What a joke.
And of course the best way to show political “care” for women is to throw more taxpayer money into a crusade that will have the women scared, compliant, on their back, clothes off, and legs up in the air.
Hi, everyone. I haven’t posted on here for a while, hope everything is okay (or, at least, more or less okay- people aren’t really on this site because things go well with doctors).
I was wondering about a pregnancy thread- is there one on here or can there be one?
Hi Alex. I’m so glad you’re back. I really missed your posts. I was looking through old ones yesterday and enjoyed reading yours very much. You always had an interesting take on the subject.
Are you still in America. i remember you were hoping to travel abroad. Swizterland I think you once wrote. Did you do that.
As for me I’m in a much better place. I received an invitation for a smear test some months ago. i just ignored it and haven’t heard anything since. i just put all those smear tests I had as an unfortunate part of my past. i try not to dwell as I get angry so its not good for me. i keep up with the posts everyday. I’m so glad the site is still going strong with new posters on now.
The book I wrote really helped me get all my anger out of my system.
I don’t know about a pregnancy thread. Is your girlfriend/wife having a baby. Is that why you want one. Perhaps Sue can organise one for you.
Hi, Linda! I’m flattered & I had some insights that I’ll post after this.
I did go to Europe, including Switzerland, but I don’t remember it being a goal when I mentioned it- I think it was the Czech Republic (which I also made it to).
You wrote a book? What’s it called?
I’ve been thinking a lot about the concept, but I don’t have a girlfriend or wife who’s pregnant. Just figure it would be good to know about.
I wondered if anyone here knows anything more about the epigenetic test that’s being researched by the scientists at the Queen Mary University of London, this test that’s being developed has a supposed accuracy of 100 % which includes the detection of adenocarcinomas , the test can be achieved through a blood test or urine test, now that’s what I want from a test 100 % and get to keep your knickers on, can anyone help
love helper x.
Good luck on this one. As I’ve said before the Trovagene HPV Urine test was 93% accurate. Pap is 50% accurate as is.
Only Delphi Screener has that kind of accuracy.
It makes sense that they could screen for endometrial cancer as cells will shed off mothers tumor etc.
But will they be willing to offer that tech to us w/o strings attached? No.
When you search for epigenetics, adenocarcinoma, HPV, there are some results for oropharyngeal cancer studies. So head and throat cancers caused by HPV and smoking might rate worth researching but the cancers downstairs already have a huge money making industry. Remember what happened to Trovagene urine test for HPV?
Sounds great to have a simple blood or urine test but I am not interested in any health screenings. These just lead to further tests, unnecessary medications and clinic pressurings. People who want them can get them. I would just like to be able to address my personal health concerns without being pushed around for all these other screenings.
I have just watched the BBC 10.00 news, it reported that over two decades of research into early detection of ovarian cancer by ucl they failed to discover early signs of the disease in any of tests that were trialled in clinical studies of 200,000 women, so how do they condone that for decades they got away with saying they could do ,this by sticking their fingers in there, this just confirms what I have always thought ! Bi-manual ment molestation
Hugs Jules x.
I’ve been reading up on past research papers into HPV and came across a site called careacross . com in an article from 17/2/2014 . called cancer news, it appears that a drug called lopinavic which is primarily used for the treatment of the HIV virus has been found to eliminate the HPV , virus Dr lan and lynne Hampton from the university of Manchester working in conjunction with the Kenyatta national hospital (KNH) in Nairobi, Kenya , have found that Kenyan women who were HPV positive early stage cancer and were treated with the HIV antiviral drug which is normally taken orally for HIV, but for HPV is self applied directly to the cervix as a pessary, later tests showed that a high proportion of infected women with high grade HPV had returned to normal status after a short course of treatment out of 23 women 19 (82.6%) returned clear results 2 had been reduced to low grade and 17 with low grade at the start of testing showed significant reductions in the abnormal cells. I can’t find any further information on this drug but it has been used for a number of years and has no known side effects, surely more research should be done on this type of treatment instead of the normal course of action by the gyno’s where they leave the cervix looking. like it’s been attacked by a pitbull
Hugs Jules x.
Jules, I once went to a talk on this given by a hospital doctor. There is definitely a relationship between HIV and HPV, but I don’t think they can quite ascertain what it is. Doctor said that all women with cervical csncer should also be tested for HIV, as they are 5 times more likely to have it than women without cervical cancer. In my city there are self-testing HIV swab machines available at gay clubs and these have made a big difference in gay men coming forward to be tested for HIV. Great shame they cannot trust women to test themselves for HPV in a similar way, but then I supposed they may get swamped with young women finding they have it, then clearing it by themselves.
New post over on PHE Blog, special guide and checklist for those anxious about attending cervical screening! It’s 2 documents, I think it’s aimed at women who don’t have learning difficulties but apparently one gives advice on planning your route to the test!?
Also Daily fail last week, they are turning their attention to the barriers trans ppl have accessing cervical screening. However one feels about trans ppl, one suggestion is a special clinic set up just for them so they can access smears. Because this is smear tests, vital, I can see yet more money being wasted setting it up! Self testing was briefly mentioned, nowhere was it mentioned the trans ppl might have made an informed decision not to attend!!
This definitely smacks of desperation ,they must be so worried that screening targets will never recoupe the numbers needed to make the programme viable in the aftermath of the pandemic,the screening targets were already in free fall before this virus , for God’s sake they will be asking you to bring your pets in next.
Love Helper x.
( haven’t commented lately because I’ve got a new love interest seems to be going ok at the minute)
Helper, you could be right, either that or they’ll start “inviting” Mme Toussards dummies! Hope love interest keeps going well! X
I agree it all sounds very desperate. They seem to have concentrated their efforts on trans men at the moment. Perhaps they think there’s no point in hassling the rest of womankind for once, but it may be the lull before the storm: June is an awareness month so I’m sure it won’t be long before we get the same old tripe again.
I saw an announcement recently that self-testing is planned for New Zealand in 2023? I think we’re still trying to invent self-testing here in the UK…
Hi ladies, It may seem to visitors to this site that we may be a little biased, so to be fair we should offer help to the opposition to level the playing field to help with their screening targets. At the moment I’m reading a book about how in the eighteenth century they could not set sail without a full crew , so men were sent out to “recruit “ sailors this was known as press ganging which involved beating someone unconscious and taking them back to the ship where they became crew, maybe the NHS could employ this tactic , arming practice nurses with clubs and deploy them in darkened alleyways in waiting for the unsuspecting, or maybe they could do as they have in the past and simply lie with the figures they publish , failing this maybe they should just give the f??k up.
Hugs Jules x.
Jules, something more sanitised was tried , I think during the programme early days, nurses would turn up on “defaulters” doorsteps haranguing them into presenting their vagina for scrutiny! Eventually they got fed up of angry women….
Waiting for the next awareness campaign in June, I thought I would look at previous attempts by these wonderful people to cajole women into testing and to see how the usual drivel has changed over the last couple of years, and came across an article written by a journalist by the name of Sophie Gallagher who had written on reasons women fail to attend sreening on the independent news paper website on 7/11/19 of course the usual crap came up about embarrassment etc but then she added that the majority of women who fail to attend were of the lower scale of education, WHAT A F&&KING CHEEK ! I wish i could have replied at the time, and pointed out that I have two degrees a first and a 2:1 which enables me to put BA and BSC after my name if I so desired ( I don’t bother ) and my decision not to screen is because of worldwide medical reviews , misinformed information by the NHS ,the dangers of being over or under treated the actual acurracy of the smear test ( 53%) at the time which is a fraction higher than a coin flip and also the chance of being sexually assaulted, also the chance of preterm pregnancies or miscarriage due to the butchered remains of your cervix, people such as these idiots fearmongering the female population should be exiled. I always thought journalists were supposed to be impartial and present both side of an issue so you could make up your own mind, obviously she must be at the lower end of education she mentions
Sorry for ranting on but this cretin really wound me up.
Hugs Jules x
Heck, I’m the most educated person in my family with two Bach of Science degrees. The least educated person in my family is the one dutifully getting smears and never questioning the doctors, and rolling her eyes calling me a “child” for expecting to retain bodily autonomy in the face of the awesome magnitude of the all-important Medical Degree.
Jules; always enjoy reading your posts. Did you get the 53% stat from us or is there another source I’m not aware exists? I had gotten 53% from Trovagene; then there’s a source from UK (an advertisement) that said 50%.
Worse yet, those women who got LEEP’d and are still mislead by their doctor that they’re gonna have a normal pregnancy. An amputated cervix under pressure will “blossom” like a premature rose.
The 53% figure was from a study from the Queen Mary university of London it was an accuracy comparison for cervical screening, hpv tests and epigenetic testing their findings were paps 53% , hpv tests 71% and epigenetic testing 100% ( I cannot claim any credit for this though it was Helper who found this report)
Hugs Jules x.
That’s great! Thanks. I’d mentioned the Trovagene test. Briefly, it’s urine based, using PCR and antibody pickup. Took 2 weeks to run. It was DC in 2015 due to “lack of interest.” Yet I’m sure I’ve said here (sorry to repeat again) that the test was never publicized. I will (should have already) contact them and ask why.
A previous 2006 pap I had brought results (negative) that came along with this disclaimer from LabCorp San Diego CA:
“Pap smear is a screening test designed to aid in the detection of premalignant and malignant conditions of the cervix. It is not a diagnostic procedure and should not be used as the sole means of detecting cervical cancer. Both false-positive and false-negative reports do occur.”
Doesn’t that just make you want to crap in your doctor’s coffee cup?
I’ve also spoken of a letter to the editor posted in The Sydney Morning Herald, I believe 9/27/16.
“Pathologist 9/27” says concerns over changes to Australia’s pap program (relaxing screening demands/also self screening) were by a poorly informed person. A very small number of precancerous turn to cancer and they shouldn’t be called that. The writer says she had precancer which is very different to real cancer. She had dysplasia which is very common and in the vast majority of cases resolves. Most CIN1 and 2 resolve without treatment. Even CIN3 does most of the time. Cervical cancer is an old woman’s disease because it takes 10 years to develop. On the other hand dysplasia in young women is very common. The ratio of CC for a woman in her early 20’s is 1.6 per 100,000. The highest ratio is in women over 85. http://cervicalcancer:canceraustralia.gov.au.statistics
Leave the advice to the experts. Too many young women were having surgery on “precancers” that would have spontaneously reverted to normal. They then develop an incompetent cervix and had miscarriages. The new guidelines are correct.”
Then there’s this gem:
Truscreen FAQs. “Why have we developed a new cervical screening test? Medical professionals the world over were looking for a real time screening device to improve accuracy and patient follow up, reduce patient discomfort, and the need for supporting laboratory infrastructure and make cervical screening more available to women in remote and undeveloped regions. Feedback from medical professionals also highlighted that current laboratory Pap tests are subjective and vary significantly–only giving approximately 50% accuracy.”
Thar ye go.
It’s sickening to see how many online doctors just love and tout LEEP vs anything else. Cryo is horribly painful and pretty much dissolves your cervix. I had this and somehow mine grew back. LEEP is an amputation pure and simple. Ditto cold knife too.
The videos of these are difficult to watch.
Have a good weekend Jules. And thanks again.
Jules, I so agree! And the talk of lower socio/economic women living in deprived areas not going as well, well that could describe me, but uptake in my town is higher than that in some leafy suburbs! And I live in a very deprived area, with a high BAME population! They just love to label…..
And as I said before, when I asked doctor for non hormonal help for sweats and flushes, and she asked why not HRT, and I said because I’m not prepared to screen for breast cancer and I don’t have smears either, and she asked why!? Do you find it painful? And I gave her my stats and explanations, she couldn’t actually disagree with anything I said!
Guess we are just square pegs in round holes!! X
I simply dig that orange tabby you have. Male? How old? Adorable.
It’s just incredulous all I can attribute it to is brainwashing.
Hugs Jules x.
Cat and Mouse thank you! Leo is a boy, 8 years old in July and he’s the soppiest sweetest ever xxx😻
How Delivering Babies Has Advanced Through The Ages
First there was the Pumpkin Age…
When doctors carved a woman’s beautiful pumpkin into an evil nightmarish jack o’ lantern.
Then there was the Deadline Age…
Doctor looked at his watch. Deadline reached. He then aims his scalpel and slices.
Finally now we’re in the Car Wash Age…
A future doctor was employed at a car wash. While vacuuming loose change out of the unused ashtray he got a brilliant idea.
Reprint and send to all your friends.
For you Kattyrehman; with love from Cami our longhaired varmint (black cats matter) former unmarried homeless teen mother to be.
Thank you Cat and Mouse! We ❤️ Black cats and Cami is so lucky to have you!! Hugs purrs and meows xxx
Just looking through a few of the old posts from public health England, and came across Kat (you go girl) berating Anne Mackie over the right to refuse exams, and all she could do to was keep repeating we say you have the right to refuse, and the new leaflets have this information on them yadda yadda yadda ,there were others on there to all having a dig, I’ll bet she was glad to get out of there by the end of it after getting her arse royally kicked ,the point being maybe we should fire a few shots at the generals as well as the foot soldiers as these are the ones that could make changes .
Hugs Jules x.
Thanks Jules! ! It felt SO good, as I was sick at the time of smears always being brought up at doctors when I was attending with a non vaginal worry!!
You might have to bare with me on this one, as it drags on a bit. Thinking outside the box, when given a problem at uni and finding it difficult or impossible to solve one tutor used to explain to us to find alternative ways of solving it using a different approach Maybe this way of thinking could be beneficial to us, the next screening awareness campaign is due shortly and will bombard us with the usual garbage, and no doubt the same old statement of 5000 each year will contract cervical cancer. They might just of shot themselves in the foot with this, as I have been looking for different ways to combat them and came across a directive issued by the department for health, to healthcare providers ( NHS) and associated groups such as charities this is a legal requirement and has been since February 2015 it’s called
guidance for providers.
The false or misleading information offence. We all know that this number was an over estimated figure by the J . Peto report in 2004, and yet this figure is still used in today’s leaflets by them all. If this is the case and statistics haven’t changed in 17 years, it means
Cervical screening achieves
The hpv vaccine doesn’t work .
or the information given is false , this last point then becomes an offence by their own ruling , surely we could put them on the spot to force them to introduce a more realistic number than the total fabricated stat they use to frighten women with into screening, which in turn would cause them to re-write all their leaflets and web info at a cost which would hit them financially and also their credibility,
might be worth thinking about. Hugs Jules x.
Jules, I try to do this whenever I post anywhere on social media. It is pointless trying to put the point across to the latest 25 year old screening martyr, that her smear test was likely a huge waste of time and didn’t save her life. I’m afraid you will be talking to the brainwashed faithful there.
Instead, I challenge politicians, health organisations, academics, patient forums and charity groups who promote screening with the exagerated figures, and no understanding of the test limitations, or that we even have a choice. Plenty of useful evidence in the reference section on this website. If you challenge them with actual figures, I think that’s far more worrying to them. They dread the truth getting out. I challenged a local (male) MP who was one of those invited by Jo’s Tosh to promote smear tests. I think he was genuinely taken aback that many women don’t want, let alone need this test. He soon realised it wasn’t a vote winner, never promoted it again. Not sure he’s in politics anymore. I also challenge government bodies with the actual figures and publicise the amount of public money spent on screening. It’s not free, it costs us tax-payers £187 million per year according to the latest government report by Mike Richards.
I’ve learned a lot from Eliz, who doesn’t often post on here very often now, and have taken a leaf out of her book – get solid evidence of statistics and politely quote the evidence to them in as public a place as possible, and they often back down and know the game is over.
Here’s the Mike Richards report I referred to, which claims the cost of the UK programme is £187 million.
The figures given everywhere for the benefits of this test are greatly exaggerated, and in popular culture it’s one of the leading causes of death.
The truth is never supported with a lie. With all of this false information, it is next to impossible for someone to make an informed decision – or give informed consent – for this test when she’s making the decision based on untrue data.
You ladies never cease to amaze me,
In awe hugs Jules x.
I see that the opposite ends of the screening awareness campaign spectrum have gone into overdrive ahead of Cervical Cancer Awareness Week next week. At one end, the unspeakably crass and somewhat sexualised #dropyourpants campaign. At the other, the infantilising #weareallsmearready, with the associated hearts, flowers, handbags and pretty pink hearts. Mind you, both were accompanied by craft activities that involved decorating teeny tiny little pants. Because women’s health awareness campaigns always have to involve decorated pants. The message doesn’t get through otherwise, apparently.
Sickening isn’t it, but it’s good to see these saucy campaigns getting a backlash, even from the screening devotees. I think it’s made them realise they can’t get away with these campaigns. They’ve had to tone them down. We’ll keep on at them. They got to share the limelight with us now.
Yes, that was definitely a silver lining, albeit often in the context of “we cant have these hashtags putting any women off because it will cost millions of lives!” But definitely, a shift towards talking to women like they are adults can only be a good thing. Also, so many women were talking of how difficult, painful and traumatic they find those screening tests in the comments that it will also have to be acknowledged more – I really hope that changes the awful, shaming and berating tone that has taken hold.
Omg, so unbelievably gross!
I do find it astounding that on one hand, they assume women are rejecting the rape exams based solely on “embarrassment”, then at the same time they craft awareness campaigns that literally spotlight the genitals in the most direct and unabashed way possible, guaranteed to embarrass anyone with an ounce of human dignity.
Well, perhaps not the most direct. They could, for example, be crafting tiny little female genitals, perhaps bisected by a speculum with a tiny little cervix showing. Thank goodness for obscenity laws, or else I’m guessing that’s exactly what would happen.
Something else they could try,is to put a little cartoon character getting a test on the back of the coco pops breakfast cereal box , so the little ones have twenty years to prepare for it, best keep this idea to ourselves though as I wouldn’t put it past some of the sick bastards in this programme to try it
Hugs Jules x.
It seems that they have nothing left but the same old, same old.
Their campaigns are either to shame women ,ridicule them,or normalise this disgusting exam none of these have had much effect in the past, the attendance just keeps falling and I don’t expect it to be any different this time round. You will probably get the hardcore screeners clambering for their tests, but how many of the previous attenders have now decided to jump ship. It would be hard to believe that none of them that have missed their tests for months have not looked up information because they were worried, and come across sites such as this, and realised they have been conned for decades. Long live the revolution.
Hugs Jules x.
MONASH UNIVERSITY SEEKS TO RESTRICT WOMENS ACCESS TO THE EMERGENCY PILL IN AUSTRALIA, AND FORCE WOMEN TO HAVE COUNSELLING AND IUD’S IMPLANTED AGAINST THEIR WISHES
Just choked on my breakfast this morning reading what Monash University is doing to women who seek emergency birth control through a pharmacist in Australia.
It’s on The Daily Telegraph website (you have to pay to access it), but essentially its this –
“Pharmacists would offer private birth control counselling to young women who turn up wanting the emergency contraceptive pill or early medical abortion as part of an Australian-first trial to reduce accidental pregnancies.
“Instead of simply handing over the pills, pharmacists would instead ask if a woman would take part in a private-room counselling session on the available birth control options before referring them to a relevant clinic.”
“The federal government has invested almost $2.5 million towards the Monash University trial which will be conducted in 21 pharmacies in NSW, Victoria and the Northern Territory.”
“University Department of General Practice Head, Professor Danielle Mazza, said the aim was to involve 1200 women – including teenagers.”
(teenagers often look up to people who are older than them when in situations like this, and they will find it very hard to look at this and realise they DON’T need forced counselling and they have the right to get the emergency pill!!! Older women might smell a rat quickly enough and start demanding the pill without an idiot ‘counselling’ them about their choices!)
“It’s really about getting the pharmacist to be proactive at a point when women need it most,” she said.”
“If they are seeking an early medical abortion, it means they have fallen pregnant. That is an ideal time for a pharmacist to provide contraceptive counselling and refer them back into services that can provide them with a pill prescription, IUD or implant.”
Um, no. Really, no. Don’t do that. Don’t EVER do that.
You don’t put in place yet more barriers to emergency birth control. Women are not stupid. We know about the pill, IUD’s, implants, shots, vaginal rings, whatever. We don’t need counselling on our choices. Please stop trying to control women and treat us a stupid birthing machines with no brain or sense of reponsibility.
This is all about trying to keep up the status quo of treating women as a bunch of 5-year-olds.
I know if I turned up at a pharmacist needing that pill, and I had some dodgy pharmacist telling me I must have a counselling session first, I think my reaction would be to deck him one! (Not that I really would, but I’d probably start yelling non-stop and throwing whatever came to hand, at his or her head).
Apparently this is a trial to be done in 21 pharmacys in Australia. I have the feeling this ‘trial’ will quickly be imlemented across Australia and any woman needing emergency birth control will be ‘counselled’ about her silly choices, and practically forced to get an IUD implanted (this seems to be what they actually want women to do).
I know IUD’s are forcibly pushed on a lot of women and this trial might also be about getting as many women as possible to have one. I’ve had doctors appointments where the I’ve been practically ordered to get an IUD (no way in hell!) and counselled when I refused. Saying get stuffed, and how much are you being paid to show foreign objects into womens wombs, usually gets them to shut up about it.
Monash Uni is a strange and terrible uni. I know they do a lot of animal experimentation which is incredibly cruel and unnecessary. They also seem to have lost their marbles about treating women as responsible adults.
They already believe we can’t think for ourselves. Pregnant? Then they believe we can’t think at all.
Bring the partner or friend along for support.
As if an f’ing pharmacist has any formal training or qualifications in this regard.
Offer a counseling referral for her to use after the fact.
How do they sign off on correspondence there, would it be
Seig heil, seig heil , seig heil
Hugs jules x.
I love you Jules, LOL!!!!
It’s disturbing that the government is funding them.
After coming across this site ,I have become very cynical of the medical profession especially the gyn and gp side of things, I may incorporate a little humour in some postings, but I do take this subject seriously, the thought that so many women have been hurt mentally and physically by these people is heartbreaking,and I have wept more than once reading their stories .
The comradery on here is amazing, everyone here is exceptional , and because of this ,the day will come when we are victorious, this site is a lifeline for many. ( thanks Sue ).
ps, I do know I spelt Sieg wrong , I was never any good at German .
Hugs to all Jules x.
Well, fearmongering week has begun. Already the CEO of our favourite charity has put out a blog describing her abnormal cells result and subsequent treatment in her 20s as a ‘near-miss’ with cancer. 5 minutes was all I could bear on social media this morning, but already lots of medical professionals putting out glib tweets about how ‘simple’ and ‘easy’ the test is and how ‘every woman should have one’. For heaven’s sake, what’s wrong with just giving women the whole truth and allowing them the autonomy to make the decision for themselves? (rhetorical question, as we know why this doesn’t happen!). Cervical cancer is absolutely awful and I’m not against screening if it’s underpinned by informed consent. But, what’s more awful is women, especially the young women who would be most harmed by screening, living in fear of being struck down by a rare illness and women being coerced into an invasive test via emotional manipulation. And even more awful is the shaming and belittling way that women speak to each other about it. Facts not fearmongering!
Hi ladies, I don’t know quite what went on with my previous post but it ended up towards the top of the board for some reason, it might be because i was using Jules phone and it’s different to mine or it could be because of the liquid lunch, anyway my apologies. Love Helper x.