Incidence of sexual abuse within health care is estimated to rival levels found within the church and other major institutions, but people who are sexually abused by doctors and other health care workers within the context of health care are faced with many unique barriers that are not present in other settings. Some of the barriers include difficulties distinguishing what constitutes sexual abuse, a decreased ability to prevent sexual abuse from occurring, and a lack of support and justice for instances when sexual abuse has taken place.
Recognizing sexual abuse
Recognizing sexual abuse within the context of health care can be difficult. It can be difficult to distinguish between health care and sexual abuse when routine examinations involve genitals and other sexual areas of the body. But it is the very nature of these exams that places doctors and other health care workers in a privileged and unique position to disguise sexual abuse as something else. For example, doctors are able to perform exams such as vaginal/rectal/breast exams when they are medically unnecessary, and to then defend their actions by claiming they were being “thorough”, or that they were done for the woman’s own good. And it can be very difficult to prove otherwise except in rare instances. For example, Dr. Stanley Chung was brought before the College of Physicians and Surgeons on allegations of frequent and unnecessary rectal and vaginal exams on women, some of whom were virgins.
It can also be difficult to determine when the line from appropriate behavior to inappropriate behavior during an examination has been crossed, especially if the sexual act is subtle. For instance when the doctor’s hand brushes against a breast as if by accident, or the doctor’s fingers linger a bit too long inside the vagina during a bimanual exam. In these instances the woman only has her hunches and instincts to support her suspicions. In other cases it is fairly obvious when the line has been crossed, such as instances where it is obvious that exams are not medically necessary. For example, a commenter on this site stated: “When I was thirteen my mom suspected I might have a kidney infection and took me in to see a urologist. He told me to cross my arms over my head, held my arms down, removed the paper shield and did a breast exam on me while I was fighting against him.” April 4, 2013 at 4:23 pm Clearly a thirteen year old girl would be considered as not being at risk of breast cancer. Another example is the court case of Wasserman versus Ms. Gugel:
Ms. Gugel alleges the doctor took her into an examination room and sexually assaulted her upon the conclusion of his “consultation only” appointment. The doctor claims the alleged sexual assault was actually part of a legitimate medical examination, even though he had already examined her the previous day . . . The doctor also contends the alleged sexual assault was part of a legitimate examination despite his not wearing examination gloves, his smelling his finger after using it to touch Ms. Gugel’s vulva and inserting it into her vagina, and his subsequent sexually harassing phone calls to Ms. Gugel, which were recorded.
Prevention
Preventing sexual abuse within the context of health care can be difficult. Many women have the reasonable expectation they will be able to trust their health care providers and sexual abuse is not something that is likely to be on a woman’s radar. However, even when distrust of a health care provider is present, the lack of informed consent involving intimate examinations provides little opportunity for a woman to avoid them. In fact, the current situation in women’s health allows for coercion to the point of bullying and the withholding of medications and other health services when women wish to decline pelvic exams/pap tests/STD testing. The power imbalance that is already present in the doctor/patient relationship becomes even more pronounced when a woman feels pressured into invasive exams or is unaware she has the right to say ‘no’, and the opportunity to prevent sexual abuse becomes extremely remote. In addition, the coercion that is the norm in women’s health care allows increased opportunity for predatory behavior and sexual abuse on the part of doctors and other health care providers.
Lack of support and justice
The effects from having been sexually abused by someone in a position of trust can be devastating. Dr. Gerald Monk, a professor at San Diego State University, states “Patients can feel especially violated in the context of health care. Not only do patients anticipate being safe and secure, they expect to be healed. Following an adverse medical event, a patient may experience a lifetime of heartbreaking anguish and suffering.” Juan Mendez in his work with the Human Rights Association compares some unnecessary medical procedures to torture and states, “medical care that causes severe suffering for no justifiable reason can be considered cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, and if there is state involvement and specific intent, it is torture.”
Some women who have been sexually abused by a doctor are not even sure what to call it, and in fact sexual abuse when committed by doctors is assigned special terminology and renamed as “medical misconduct”. When some women attempt to seek help they are often met with a white wall of silence and discover that denial and persistent altercation of the facts are prevalent. Sanda Rogers, University of Ontario law faculty, in her discussion of failed promise of reform regarding sexual abuse by health care professionals, states: “Patients report abuse. The evidence is there, as is the evidence that abuse is seriously under reported. The legislation provides the health disciplines with the tools necessary to respond to the abuse perpetrated by some members. Instead, the College of Physicians and Surgeons and other Colleges, have failed to ensure that complainants are provided with the support necessary to assist them to survive the process of complaint, investigation and hearing. The drop off rate on complaints by the CPSO, and by other Colleges, is such that almost no complaints and few complaints of sexual misconduct and abuse proceed to a full hearing. Each stage of the process favors the professional and undermines the complainant.” Sanda also states that complainants who were interviewed by the College members found the complaint process “an amplification of an already traumatic experience“.
As a result, doctors and other health care providers are often left free to continue abusing for years even after complaints against them are made. Dr. Alan Cockeram and Dr. George Doodnaught are just two examples of cases where many women filed complaints and they were ignored.
Sexual abuse under the guise of health care presents many barriers and can have devastating effects. Sanda states that “Abuse in the guise of care, enabled by professional status, access and patient vulnerability and dependency, is an insidious and terrible breach of trust and an unconscionable and violent abuse of power and authority“. Women are often placed in positions where they are vulnerable and left with limited resources to protect themselves from sexual abuse by health care providers. The women who have been abused and who find the courage to complain are led through a process that often only fails them. In addition, women who have been faced with such experiences are left in a place where health care can be viewed as a threat to their personal safety and psychological stability. In other words, these women are left to cope in a society where health care, for them, does not exist.
forwomenseyesonly 
The point is that the lipoma tumour was not cancer but they could not be sure and cervical dysplasia is not cancer. The chance of the lipoma being cancer was 0.5%, the chance of cervical dysplasia (CIN 1-3) turning into cancer is 10-20% over many years.
Alex – Thanks for bringing up some good points, as always. You’re right that it is implicit deception, but it’s awful that everything gets stated as truth and facts when there is so much being hidden.
“There’s never anything ‘fine with you’ is there?” That’s kind of the point I was making in feeling like something was bound to go wrong sooner or later. Everyone has health problems. No one is healthy. Whether or not those health problems are real or worth taking medication over, who knows? That’s the thing that always gets me. People get degrees in lots of fields. For example; scientists are very intelligent. Yet people are always questioning them and debating their theories. Or what about world-renowned philosophers who have studied in different fields for many years? Or even lawyers? It seems as though a medical degree is the only degree that protects a person from someone questioning their actions.
What you said isn’t condescending – it’s true. At least for me. It’s something I need to work on; being more confrontational especially when it is necessary.
It really is unfortunate that so much harm is done to people. I have to believe that there are less harmful or completely natural treatments somewhere to cure things. So much damage is done.
The bit of advice; “you’re not dealing with you” was really fantastic and exactly what I needed to hear.
You’re very welcome, Ro! I’m very glad that was helpful for you. That’s exactly why I post on here. I very much like to distribute the means of sharpening counteractive abilities, particularly with this type of subject. I don’t mean to brag, but I DO know some things that are a bit left-field (not impossible to figure out, but not exactly common knowledge).
As for degrees, I’ve noticed something else that doesn’t get questioned: military rank. Not just in the military, but military personnel in civilian situations don’t really get questioned in any way. Speaking of military personnel: apparently things go the same way with regard to doctors & cops, just more directly. Always perplexed me why they would still care about the organization that aimed such things at them. Seems to me that engaging an enemy would be a large part of that occupation, anyway.
There’s also a lot of ass-kissing toward people in the military, too. Trying to demonstrate what a good person they are by fawning over the soldiers, because “they went to war to protect us.” The idea isn’t a bad thing, but they hold them in that esteem no matter what happens & that IS a bad thing. There’s also lots of trying to absorb their abilities by acting like they’re one of them. On top of that, these peopel always sympathize with them because they figure that “they don’t really want to be here” & “they’re only following orders.” Doesn’t make any sense, since that doesn’t actually change the content of the situation.
I am looking to expand the web site for Sexual Misconduct By Doctors’ web site (http://www.sexualmisconductbydoctors.com) to include links to news articles about doctors who have sexually abused patients in other countries outside the US. We already have a list for the US. We will need financial support. I was wondering if some of you could donate to Medical Patient Modesty to support this project. You can donate at http://patientmodesty.org/donate.aspx.
Misty
Thank you for the links Misty. I was wondering if there was some way for people to donate anonymously?
How much do you figure you’d need? Just trying to gauge things.
Sue: It is possible to donate anonymously especially if you donate via credit card. Look at how we have one anonymous donor already at http://www.gofundme.com/patientmodesty. You would need to donate money before December 15th if you want the money to go to MPM before the end of 2013. People can also donate by mailing a check (see http://patientmodesty.org/donate.aspx for more information). I really want to add Canada to the database since there have been so many cases of doctors abusing patients in Canada.
Alex: We really need $500-$1,000 for this particular project.
Misty
Sorry about this being a little long, but I wanted to ask about a recent bad experience.
I work full-time as a model and was recently accepted by a high profile UK modelling agency. A few weeks ago, myself and a few of the other girls at my agency were hired by a company for a big shoot on location abroad. It was a 7 day trip and everything was paid for, including travel insurance, but we had to pass a mandatory physical before being cleared to go. I wasn’t bothered and I certainly wasn’t going to miss out on this opportunity just because of an inconvenience.
So I went to the doctor’s office that the insurance company had picked. Most of the appointment was fine, just the usual health questions, took my blood pressure, checked my ears, nose & throat etc. Then he asked me to take my top off, so he could check my heart and lungs. I was expecting this, so I didn’t hesitate.
But before he started, he told me to take my bra off as well. I was a little surprised since I didn’t think that was necessary. When I asked why, he said he would need to place the stethoscope under my left breast for a hearing at the apex. I felt uncomfortable but what he said sounded okay so I did it. First he put the scope above my heart and listened. I was already feeling a little weird when he then lifted my left breast with his hand and placed the scope below it. He didn’t even ask my permission to touch me! I was really nervous so my heart was racing, and I knew he could hear it, which felt quite embarrassing. Then he checked my lungs from the back and placed his hand on my shoulder while he listened, which felt a little weird as well. I didn’t like the amount of times he tried to make eye-contact either.
The worst part came next. He told me to raise my arm so he could give me a clinical breast exam. I was pretty shocked since I hadn’t raised any such concerns. I said that I hadn’t noticed anything unusual in that area but he said, in no uncertain terms, that it was compulsory for the physical. He then examined both my breasts – WITHOUT gloves on. I must have been topless for almost 10 minutes in total before he let me put my clothes back on and finished the appointment.
I know this may sound like I’m overreacting, but I genuinely felt violated. When I asked some of the other girls about their physical, they all said their doctors (different to my one) listened to their heart with their bra on and didn’t perform a breast exam. Don’t mean to sound egotistical but I can’t help but think that the fact I’m an attractive young woman played a role in what he made me do. I’m used to being scantily clad for my job (I’ve got over 25,000 twitter followers through my modelling) but I think he took advantage of me, knowing I needed him to pass me on the physical. It was probably the most humiliating experience of my life. I just felt so powerless.
Has anyone ever been in a similar situation before? Is it worth filing a complaint?
Thanks
Sorry to hear about this horrible ordeal. This does not sound like you are overreacting at all, that creep has groped you, and he should be held responsible, just like a man should be held responsible who gropes women on the tube or anywhere. Just because he is a doctor he does not have a free pass to do as he pleases with anyone, how dare he.
What I think worth is, beyond filing the complaint, spreading the word to anyone who listens- please warn other models who could be taken advantage of, the other patients of the molester, even mention it on your twitter- you would do a service for the public, by counteracting the insidious propaganda that no doctors are ever sexual predators. The more media exposure such cases receive, the more savvy medical consumers become, and the molesters stand less chance.
Overall, a situation is what it consists of. Any interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. I mean, if a doctor poisoned someone with a needle, that’s still murder (it’s just called an “iatrogenic attack” at that point- fancy term for attacking someone with a medical methodology). Properties don’t change because of designation, basically.
I HAVE heard of scams involving passports & the overall strategy is to try to enforce an impression. It’s not actually a requisite, but they “inform” someone that it is & try to act accordingly (just like when something isn’t legally sanctioned, but whoever it is “applies influence” anyway). Keep in mind: a requisite CAN be dissolved. Saying something lawyer-ish like “Your mandate is abrogated” when they say “But this is mandatory” can be a hell of a show-stopper. Don’t be fooled by an appearance of confidence, either- they usually get believed so it’s easy for them to look that way (even when they know they’re legally unsupported).
You’re not overreacting at all & I absolutely think it’s worth filing a complaint. Using coercive tactics to impose something of this nature is an attack. Just to say it beforehand: They don’t have an avenue of attack with policies. What that means is that they don’t add something into “their way of doing things” & it becomes non-antagonistic. They don’t get to attack people with their policies, basically.
A point worth mentioning is that if someone were to say “Let me play doctor on you or you’re fired,” that is sexual harassment- plain & simple. If someone threatened to kick someone out of their apartment if they didn’t sleep with them, that’s a coercive attack. Different variations, same theme. Some people talk a big game, but what are they going to say?: “What happens ISN’T what occurs,”? Not really an accurate point.
Coley, you have a very substantial reason to feel violated. Filing a complaint is a good idea.
Unfortunately, many companies demand their employees to go through health checks knowing that the person really wants that job, which is blackmail and violation on its own. If the job does not involve heavy physical labor or doesn’t put the lives of others in dependence of the employee’s health (e.g. pilots), there should be no need for a physical at all.
In any case, breast exams or gynecological exams should not be a requirement for any job!
If an insurance company wants to cover its greedy ass at the person’s expense, they should give the person an option to sign a waiver if the person would rather go on a 7-day photo-shoot trip uninsured than be sexually abused or raped by a dishonest doctor. But, unfortunately, nobody cares what the person wants. So it may be very helpful to get a comprehensive list of what exactly the examination consists of before seeing a doctor. In this case, a sexual predator in a white coat won’t be able to lie to you that breast or gynecological exam is mandatory.
As a pretty/dainty gal myself I NEVER see male docs. Never. He asked you to take your brassier off to get a heart beat? RED FLAG #1. Took 10 minutes. RED FLAG #2. Checked you for breast cancer? What are like 60 years old?? WTF? RED FALG #3. Did he check for heart cancer, lung cancer, throat cancer while he as at it>>? You are not overreacting at all. I do not know what happened in that office, only you and if you feel violated–we’ll–that’s your answer. I was HIT BY A CAR with 2nd degree burns all over my arms and hands and the doctor taking my vitals didn’t ask me to take my bra off—totally not needed. EWE, what a sick sick sick man. I am so sorry. 😦
Okay, I’m just going to say as someone involved in healthcare: do to the positioning of the heart, moving your breast actually was clinically legit. He completely should have asked first, but that is a real thing. That’s why, in female patients, it’s better to listen to the heart while she’s lying down-the breasts move out of the way on their own. He also could have just sort of nudged your breast up with the stethoscope if that makes sense. But having you get completely topless to listen to your heart? Nope, creepy. And as far as the breast exam, yes, they are generally done without gloves on. None of the OBs I’ve worked with (male or female) wear gloves during a breast exam. But he shouldn’t have pressured you, and it is in no way legit to require a breast exam for a job. Hell, the WHO states that manual palpitation of the breasts, either by a clinician or the patient herself, is useless in preventing breast cancer. By the time it can be felt in a breast exam, it’s probably all over and is too late. This is why women over 50 who want to undergo breast cancer screening should only be offered mammograms.
I disagree with a lot of what is said on this site about male OBs. I have worked with several, my gynecologist is a male, and my uncle was a gynecologist. I intern with my own gynecologist, and I can honestly tell you that he got no pleasure from examining women’s vaginas. If I were to come up with a problem that needed to be evaluated via pelvic exam, I would have no qualms about having him do it, as long as the exam was actually necessary. I can also say that he tries really hard to avoid extra exams. If a woman has already come in that year but has some other problem, he tries really hard to keep the evaluation external. If a woman has never been sexually active, he straight up refuses to do an annual exam, and if she has problems then he exhausts every external option he has before turning to internal methods. He also doesn’t require an exam for birth control, and was horrified when I told him about that.
ColeyX if you read various boards like I have over the years you will hear stories of doctors doing different exams depending on the age and attractiveness of the patient. It’s quite common. These women are aware that they have been abused because they compare notes with their friends or relatives. For example, one doctor of a small country town used to tell all the young women of one family that he needed to perform a breast exam but he would never ask the older mothers or grandmothers even though age is a risk factor for breast cancer. Performing a breast exam without gloves can be necessary as I have read doctors say they cannot palpitate very well with gloves. But basically how was a breast exam a requirement for your job? It wasn’t. If it was me, I would be taking this further. He sexually abused you.
Google stethoscopes and clothing.
Yes sometimes the heart murmur cannot be heard over heavy clothing in a noisy area. However if you were wearing some light layer such as a tshirt there is not much problem using a stethoscope over it. Even slipping the instrument under clothing is fine without removing clothing. There was no need to remove your top or bra. A breast exam was totally inappropriate.
I really want to report it but I’m not sure what path to take. Should I report it to the administrators at that particular hospital or take it directly to the General Medical Council?
I’ve read some stories about admin staff basically dismissing complaints regarding healthcare providers because such cases are complicated and time consuming. Taking it to the GMC seems the best option, ultimately it’s them that will be responsible for deciding if he’s punished or not anyway.
But the whole process seems so daunting. I hate the idea of him getting away with this. But I also hate the thought of going through all the litigation, all my friends and family finding out about what happened, and then just losing the case anyway. Ultimately it’s probably just going to be my word against his.
The scariest part is the prospect of explaining the whole incident and how violated and vulnerable I felt, to a group of skeptical lawyers & admin staff. I can already imagine them all rolling their eyes at me.
He knew I was a model as well – because I filled out my occupation on a form. I’ve been in lots of magazine shoots in the UK and I keep getting this sickening feeling that after I left, he googled my name, found some pictures, showed them to his friends and told them that he got to touch my breasts. Even the thought of it makes me so angry!
Thanks so much everyone for the support.
Why not just go around all of that & go to a medical malpractice lawyer? Not to pat myself on the back, but the stuff I said on my post to you would make a good legal defense in court. When it’s “homed in on” that dead-center, it’s pretty hard for them to bullshit their way out of it. The medical personnel, themeselves might not be such a good idea. You mentioned them rolling their eyes (and they probably would). This is the type of thing they like, but they can’t very well say “I know it’s a problem, but I like problems”- so they make it out to not be a problem overall (and reality would, basically, have to take a coffee break for that to be true).
You being a model doesn’t entitle him to act at his discretion. If it’s still rape if someone attacks a hooker, the same theory applies to groping models. I only mention this because sometimes the idea that you showing yourself off generates a situation of negated self-determination (it’s not up to you what happens, because of you consensually doing something in a different situation that somehow runs along the same lines).
Don’t just “take the hit” in order to do what you want. It’s good that you’re not being bullied into not living your life, but letting them do whatever they want so you can do something you want isn’t exactly a success. Think about it: they’re steering the situation in that case- that’s the exact problem you had in the first place, isn’t it? Don’t know if that’s what you meant & I don’t mean to tell you what to do, just trying to point out a strategic loophole. It’s a hell of a snag to hit if things go as bad as they’ve already gone- there’s nothing to say they wouldn’t try for worse (and a lot of the things they “suggest” to women also have a massive amount of risk & inaccuracy, as do the things they lead to- different subject, but I figured I should mention it since it could get aimed at you).
He probably did. I read somewhere on the www a son telling the story that he received a text from his father, a doctor, saying “I just got to do a breast on a famous sports illustrated model”.
Do me a favour, warn all of your model friends to stay away from male doctors. They are not to be trusted.
Karen,
I agree completely with the analogy about being groped on the tube or the street. Two years ago I was walking home in the evening when I felt someone grab my bum. I was shocked but he just turned away and literally ran off. That felt bad but honestly, this was far worse. At least with the guy on the street I was able to shout at him and I could have called the police (which I would have if he hadn’t run away so quickly). This time, I had to just sit there and let it happen. It was more humiliating because he had all the control.
I thought about tweeting about this but I’m scared that it could be considered libel. Then he could sue me for slandering him, after he violated me, how perverse is that?!
To be honest, I really don’t want people to know about what he subjected me to. I’ve only spoken to a few people about this because every time I explain it to someone, it feels like he’s victimising me again.
Your case has reminded me of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_Diseases_Acts
Just like in the victorian era, a woman is being punished by doctors for being attractive. Makes my blood boil.
Alice,
When he said the breast exam was compulsory, it didn’t feel right at all. It seems a little ambiguous, but from what I’ve read, they’re not really a standard part of a ‘physical’. The other girls on the trip didn’t have one, which seems very important. It was stupid of me not to have researched what would be done beforehand, but I never really thought about it.
He never even asked me if I’d like a nurse in the room. It didn’t even cross my mind until after I left. The whole thing was so embarrassing that I just wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible.
You’re right, signing a waiver should be an option. But the next time I’ve got a work trip abroad (hopefully this happens), I’m still going to go, even if it means doing a medical, because I don’t want to allow myself to be indirectly affected by what he did to me. It feels like he’s beaten me once, I’m not going to let him keep winning by not doing what I want to do.
Coley, you definitely should not allow creepy doctors like that one to stop you doing the job you like.
But you may be able to avoid such heartache in the future either by insisting on seeing female doctors, or by obtaining a comprehensive description or the required examinations from people who send you to have the physical. They are sending you there, so they must know what it should consist of. Otherwise, next time some medical predator may say that a gynecological exam is required.
Alternatively, if your employers don’t know what the physical involves and just demand you to have one because their insurer told them to demand it, you can confront the examining doctor (this will also eliminate the need to hassle you employer).
For example, if the doctor says a breast exam is compulsory, ask him to show you the official list/guideline document where it says that it is required. If the doctor refuses to show you such document, tell him that since he has no documentary proof that an intimate exam is required, you have grounds to believe he made it up, that it amount to sexual abuse and therefore you will report his behaviour to the relevant authorities. After that, just see a different doctor for the physical, until you find a non-perverted doctor. This may take some stamina and extra time, but it will spare you heartache and psychological damage.
From my own experience, doctors quickly back up once they see that the patient is well-informed, knows her rights and is willing to stand up for herself. Most medical predators prey on ignorance, confusion, shyness, fear and desperation. So, be firm and be prepared.
Mary,
That story sounds awful. Bragging to your son about abusing your power and taking advantage of a vulnerable young woman? That boy will have some issues.
Alex,
Thank you so much for the advice.
I think using a medical claims solicitor would be the best option as well. But it’s hard to find a good one at a reasonable price. The no-win-no-fee types have a bad reputation here in the UK. Unfortunately, I can’t really afford a serious solicitor.
About the model thing, I just meant that because there are lots of pictures/videos of me on the internet, he could have searched for them later and bragged, ‘Guess what I did to her?’. He was relatively young, late 20s or early 30s, so he seemed like the type who might. I didn’t mean that I was concerned about people thinking I ‘had it coming’ or anything – at least I hope no one would ever think that.
You’re very welcome. I guess there aren’t any free-representation lawyers in the UK? I’m not entirely sure that there are any in the US, but I figured since there’s that court-appointed attorney if someone gets accused of something maybe there is one going in the opposite direction. You might be able to get some references from a battered women’s shelter or something like that- not the same thing, but maybe they’d have related information. Just make that clear right off the bat, because sometimes people get a little touchy (ex: “what happened to you wasn’t anywhere near comparable to what happened to me/us/them”).
Filing a police report for “iatrogenic detriment” or “coercive attack through medicine” might work, but it might not go too far- for various reasons. Some of it might be that “your word against his” type of thing, but there are other factors. One thing is that quite a bit of their behavior mirrors that of doctors, officially & unofficially. For instance: just sorting things out can screw someone up for life, due to various interjected security & hygiene measures- if you catch my drift. A lot of people presume that that sort of thing only applies to people that are CONVICTED of something, but things like that get worked into just getting put INTO jail/prison/juvenille detention & plenty of times just getting “picked up”. Might be talking to someone that isn’t very sympathetic to your situation (or hospitable to you taking strides against it). It’s a bit of a coin-flip & I don’t know how the cops generally are in the UK, but I thought I should add that in as related information.
A good idea for the future is to keep a phone recording things or maybe one of those “spy pens/watches/whatever” (which is something to watch out for, too- sometimes they like to hide cameras around the office or keep camera pens around their neck that look like normal dress pens/watches that look very normal/etc…).
I got what you meant about being a model, I was just throwing that in pre-emptively. It’s a suprisingly frequent argument in America (the land of the free- well, not really). I get very aggravated at how people try to logically deduce that the situation is NOT what it consists of. Like they’re figuring out that the situation is “actually” different.
ColeyX, I’m sorry that happened to you. You can file a complaint against that Dr with the medical board. I don’t know what it’s called where you live. Here a complaint can be made online and you have to give your name if you want to follow up. There is no need for a lawyer. If you’re friends/coworkers are willing you could provide their names for evidence that a breast exam was not part of the physical and if possible the paperwork of what was really required as part of the physical. Do you have access to the report that he provided for the insurance clearance or even request his charts from your appointment. Procedure wise there is no need for the bra to be removed for listening to the heart and lungs. If he chartered that he performed a breast exam when it wasn’t a requirement and without your informed consent then he has incriminated himself.
ok. You’re a victim and sure you are worried. No one is going to think well of a doctor who violates his patient confidentiality, not even his friends. These people tend to repeat their offenses until they get caught. He is digging his own grave.
Just be aware that court records are public records. Not good for you if you are worried about exposure professionally unless you want that. There are other ways to get EVEN with someone. Just think about it.
Coley,
In hearings before the medical board the complainant is usually described as Ms X, protecting her privacy. Check, that probably applies in the UK.
I’m not surprised, if you’d been 25 or more it would have been pap test pressure.
Women need to be very careful…some good advice here, I agree, request a female doctor, understand what may be included before the exam, challenge anything that is unacceptable or inappropriate. A clinical breast exam is not recommended in the UK for women of any age. He’d have a hard time justifying that exam to the Medical Council, that will be his stumbling block. He probably hasn’t mentioned it in his notes and will deny it ever happened, but complaints are a problem for predatory doctors, nurses etc, how does it look if a few complaints are sitting on your file from unrelated young women complaining about “compulsory” breast exams? It’s called similar fact evidence.
Nothing is compulsory in the exam room, it’s your choice whether to have the exam/test and who does the testing/examining.
There are lots of red flags here, your instincts are right.
Interesting that doctors have no trouble listening to your heart with your bra in place if you’re older, but it seems to be an issue for some with young and attractive women. Telling….
So sorry you’ve joined the huge number of women who’ve been abused in the consult room, most don’t complain and so these men carry on taking advantage, even a complaint that goes nowhere will send a strong message to this creep. Also, it’s an early warning that you can’t trust all doctors, this will protect you into the future.
By the way, there have been recent cases of male doctors using mobile phones and pen cameras to take photos of women during pelvic exams etc. The undeniable fact is…almost all of these complaints relate to male medical personnel.
We should all have an escape plan that we can activate when we’re uncomfortable in the exam room…you were ambushed in a situation where he had all the power. In future you could simply say, “breast exam, I’m sure that’s not required, I’ll check with the insurer and the Medical Board, so I’ll be refusing it today”….he’d probably back off then. Or, my GP tells me routine breast exams are not recommended anymore.
Good luck, welcome to the forum.
Great post, Elizabeth.
I wonder why women don’t use any of those self-defense lessons? “Don’t you touch me (maybe followed by whatever insult)” would be useful, too. Really shows that the facade didn’t work. I wouldn’t ever suggest that someone see a requistite they didn’t want as valid. Someone says “This thing you have a problem with is a mandate” & they say “That has no value.” Sounds good (and is multi-functional).
I guess maybe some women see it as wrong when they counteract these situations? But wouldn’t anyone trying to impose something like this see it as wrong for someone to work against? What are they going to do if someone tries to chase theme into a stairwell? Ask if they have permission to fight back & win?
Not a reason to disregard right & wrong entirely, but I’d definitely see it as a reason for a “Good & Bad WOLF” style of ethics. Easier for men, but I’d think women have that “bird’s eye view” ability to help them out (like when someone does something & some else does something else & you see the alignment of the situation). It’s kind of like when characters in movies talk in the third person, you know what I’m talking about? I figure, if that’s what the problem is (feeling like the bad guy), then that would definitely point out that you’re not the bad guy. Altruism doesn’t produce ownership- so someone can’t act like you’re “wronging” them on that level, either.
ADM,
I’m going to get in touch with the insurance company and ask if they can give me a copy of the medical report that they used to clear me for the insurance. Hopefully they will, I don’t see why not since it’s my report, but I have no idea how this kind of company operates. The other girls have been fantastic, they’ve all said that they will say they were not made to have breast exams – if it gets to that point. I’m very happy that I’ve got their support.
Elizabeth,
Trust me, after this I’m going to try and see female doctors whenever possible. I’d never really thought about it before. I’m only 21 and I’ve only ever seen a doctor on my own a couple of times before, so this kind of thing was never on my mind. It’s a shame that I had to learn the hard way at the hands of this creep!
I’ve drafted my complaint statement to submit directly to the hospital or to NHS England. I spoke on the phone to a manager at the hospital and he told me that I could submit it online anytime within 12 months of the incident, but I want to get this over and done with as soon as possible.
But before I submit it, I want to ask you all about something.
Some of you have already said that this could be worth taking to the police. I’ve asked about this on another forum and one poster was pretty clear that she feels my best option here is to go directly to the police and get them to investigate. It is possible that police involvement may force the hospital complaints administrators to take this more seriously than they otherwise might. But I’m scared that involving the police may seem like I’m being frivolous, that I’m ‘wasting their time’ etc, and that this perception could undermine my case.
The main reason I’m unsure of approaching the police is that they’ll expect a very high level of proof before taking any real action. I realize that unless similar complaints have been made against this doctor before, it’s going to be incredibly hard to prove a criminal case against him. From doing some reading online, doctors who are brought to court are usually done so after having had numerous similar accusations made against them. If this doctor hasn’t got a bad history, it’s just going to be my word against his.
My current plan is to submit my complaint within a few days to the hospital (maybe to NHS England instead, I don’t think it makes much difference). Hopefully I’ll be able to see the medical report at some point soon as well, presumably the hospital themselves will need it to investigate the complaint.
But if people feel that going to the police straight away is a better option, I’m definitely willing to consider it.
Thank you all again for the help you’ve given me so far. Your support means a lot.
Cops can be very touchy about “people wasting their time,” but it also might add weight to your case. You might be able to feel the situation out first. Maybe talking to an attorney about what goes on (both under & over the table) with this would be a good idea. I guess that’s called a “consultation?” They seem to be able to find out background information about things pertaining to the case (like if the doctor has had complaints made about him in the past).
You might be right about proof & all, but he might have had a few complaints made before. Someone one this site referenced finding out from the hospital if the doctor has had reports made about them (demanding information about their personnel, I guess). I’ve got to wonder if those complaints get trashed or what, though. That’s why I’d be a little uncertain about just using hospital route alone (they seem to be free to decide if there’s been any problem at all & what measures to take if so- which means THEY determine their own liability & that’s a conflict of interests). Maybe you can do both at the same time & explain it to the cops exactly like that- you want to add weight to your case so it’s not just brushed off or accomodated by the hospital.
Coley
There is no doubt these matters come to a head quickly with police involvement. Our Medical Board did very little for decades allowing some horrible people to keep “practising” and they kept offending. Now they often have to play catch-up with the Police…and they’re forced to take action.
Also, I doubt you’re his first victim. We had a dermatologist assaulting women here, doing internal exams under the guise of a skin check and he was taking photos with his phone. One young woman went to the Police and victims came out of the woodwork, all with the same story, completely naked for the check with an internal “exam”. He’s now sitting in prison where he belongs, but without her complaint to the police he’d still be abusing women. Some of these men are then placed on the sex offenders register and cannot return to medicine (as I understand it) or have restrictions placed on them, only seeing male patients etc.
You could speak to the police (sound them out, you never know, they might already know this doctor and have been waiting for a similar complaint to arrive on their desk) and mention you also, plan to make a formal complaint to the Medical Council. They may want you to hold off until they seize your file, before he becomes aware of your complaint. You can imagine how this creep will feel with the police arriving at his surgery….now that evens up the power dynamic.
Even if nothing comes of the complaint, this would have a major impact and teach him a valuable lesson….misuse a position of trust at your peril.
For too long sexual assault in a medical setting has been viewed differently, why? In my opinion, it’s worse than the creep in the park, doctors have a duty of care and enjoy a position of trust.
Also, this man then knows another complaint in the future would look bad, very bad.
These men rely on our silence and they hope we’ll be intimated enough to say nothing or not to push it anyway….receive a quiet fob off, “he was being thorough” etc.
Please keep us posted and great the other women are supporting you and happy to provide statements. Did any of them see Dr Creep?
Also, I’d strongly urge you to read up on pap testing, enormous pressure will descend when you’re 25, you need to be ready. Let us know if you need some research material. Even if you want to screen, there are far better options than 3 yearly pap tests.
You’re doing a great thing for other women by not allowing this man to get away with it scot free….and perhaps, it helps us to move on if we see some justice. No, he didn’t get away with it. It took me decades to let go of a couple of distressing experiences…and I think it was because the men got away with it, I didn’t take it further. (or was unable to…in one case a man persued me to my car and tried to attack me, I got away, but it was a terrifying experience that stayed with me for a long time)
Some women never get over abuse…and often that’s medical abuse, the violation of trust and feeling powerless and vulnerable results in lasting psychological damage.
Also, your complaint may make other women more aware and empowered..more might question and refuse routine breast exams, knowing they’re not recommended at any age.
Good luck…we’re all behind you.
Really sorry about the distressing experiences you’ve had before. I’m so happy that you were able to get over them.
None of the other girls saw the same doctor I did. While that perhaps makes making a case against him harder, I’m really glad they didn’t. I wouldn’t want any of them to suffer the same kind of bad experience I did.
I agree that this sort of behaviour is worse from medical professionals than creeps on the street for the very reasons you stated. I never realized how widespread this kind of pervy behaviour was by doctors. A few quick twitter searches reveal countless tweets by young women/girls (many of whom are still in school), regarding embarrassing moments at doctors’ appointments. One girl tweeted about how she was told to strip to the waist by a nurse, only for the doctor to ask her some questions and tell her to put her clothes back on! Another girl tweeted how, at a physical, she was told to strip down to her thong and then made to bend over and touch her toes. How does bending over provide any medical insight?!
There were countless more and the vast majority of these women were young and attractive. The particularly weird thing was that most of these comments were tweeted humorously. Very few seemed bothered about having been potentially violated, almost like stripping for a male doctor regardless of your complaint was simply par for the course.
There’s a lot of those kinds of stories. It seems like maybe those women are voicing their issue with it in a way that won’t get them “emotionally smacked in the face.” Other women are suprisingly ruthless about a doctor imposing their decisions on someone (but, oddly enough, if a husband punches his wife in the face- that’s an attack & it doesn’t matter where it came from, even though it’s a lesser level of attack). You’d think she’d get support from another woman, at least- but I guess it depends where you are (some countries are not really autonomy-bolstering).
Other women seem to think that there’s something immature, down-trodden, or otherwise defective about having bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness or simply seeing a situation compositionally. Seeing a situation for what it consists of is a real screw-up, isn’t it? A lot of these women seem to be perfectly fine with anything that happens to them as long as it isn’t a slap in the mouth & a dinner order. Same with what gets aimed at their friends, family, or children. Tell her she’s not allowed to do something because she’s a woman & she’ll flip out. But tell her that someone else is allowed to do as they choose to her because she’s a woman & that fine with her.
I agree with Elizabeth. The only reason why male doctors have got away with this sort of thing for so long is because women have gone to medical boards instead of the police with their complaints. The people behind the medical boards are doctors and their modus operandi has always been to protect their own. Hence, complaints never get anywhere. You have something going for you, you are a model, you will not be treated as a delusional woman if you put in a complaint. I cannot for the life of me see how this doctor is going to be able to justify a breast exam for a modelling assignment! I think a lot of cases can be hard to prove but in your case a young model gets a breast exam while other models don’t get one from their doctor is pretty strong case.
Yes Elizabeth and Mary, well put. I had posted this article about a medical technician being charged with sexual assault earlier but it’s worth a re-post here as it applies to ColeyX:
“The charges allege inappropriate medical exams at Ontario military recruitment sites in Thunder Bay and London from 2003 to 2009.
Wilks used the medical exams to see and touch the women’s breasts, and let them think it was part of the examination, which was “totally dishonest,” D’Auteuil said.
“The court found no reason to disbelieve any of these women.”
Wilks testified on his own behalf, but d’Auteuil said he was not believable.
The judge accepted evidence there was no need for the women to have undergone breast exams at their age. No such exam is required for women under the age of 40.
“He did that for his own personal sexual gratification,” said d’Auteuil. http://www.cbc.ca/news/ex-military-medic-convicted-of-sex-assault-for-bogus-breast-exams-1.2428708
Which makes you wonder how so many doctors get away with doing routine breast exams, for example, when a woman asks for the Pill?
I’ve read Reports of the Medical Board, they look at the doctor’s conduct….was the exam a clinical requirement? Was it necessary?
Which says to me all the doctors that lead women to believe it’s necessary or just do the exam would be in trouble if the woman complained. The casual reach for the female body will stop when it becomes unsafe. Doctor’s don’t tack a quick check of the testicles onto a consult for the flu…routine breast exams should be viewed the same way. I believe we got to this position because a male dominated profession could do as they pleased with our bodies…and the Medical Board blocked any trouble-makers making complaints.
You still hear doctors say, “I do a routine breast exam, I was taught that way”….this should be addressed, it says, I’m out of date and incompetent and violating the bodily privacy of my patients.
Also, predators have thrived in an environment where informed consent and consent itself is ignored for women and where a casual approach is taken with the female body…a predator is then protected and can confidently mislead or coerce women into pap tests and breast exams, this gives him great access. Screening targets and target payments encourage and protect this conduct… that’s why we hear of so many women being ambushed in the consult room, there with an earache and ending up on the exam table having a pap test. Some of these doctors are chasing targets and payments, some would be predators hiding behind the program and it’s dismissal of informed consent/consent makes it easy to take advantage, others arrogantly assert they know what’s best..all of these doctors are a threat to our health and well-being, the only time a pap test should occur is when a woman gives her informed consent. (currently only possible if you do your own reading)
No one has a right to touch us without our informed consent. I’ve always felt like a guardian, protecting my body and mind from the medical profession. Also, avoid any doctor who is controlling, rude etc. it’s so important to find a respectful doctor. A doctor using a word like “compulsory” should send up a red flag, nothing is compulsory in the exam room. A blood pressure test is a clinical requirement for the Pill, but you could still refuse. Compulsory suggests we have no choice, like paying taxes, and medical care does not fall into that category.
You know, I’ve been wondering: Why is it there’s such restraint with regard to retaliation to doctors? Someone’s a sex offender, but they’re still allowed to practice- there’s just some restrictions. What kind of trustability is there with them? Maybe they just switch trends & targets.
If someone so much as steals a car, they go to prison (which is not proportionate, but that’s part of the point). If a doctor molests a patient, they get fired (maybe). All the things that prison consists of (officially& unofficially) is not really proportionate to most things, but I’d say going after someone on this level is something that matches up pretty well.
One thing I’d suggest & I don’t mean to be critical, but definitely don’t leave room for “required.” It doesn’t matter if someone’s consent is informed or not, anyway- but you have a conflict of interest where someone medical is determining whether someone is informed (both in terms of judgement & in terms of providing information). There’s really nothing to say that they’d be honest about things, overall (even when there IS information that says one thing, if it contradicts what they’re inclined toward…).
“At your own risk” and signing waivers isn’t really the M.O. of M.D.s. Even if there was a risk of something, that’s the person’s own decision to make (IF there’s any risk at all, because there’s plenty of false trails in medicine- oddly enough, they lead away from anything being medicine’s fault).
By-the-way: Look up the word “clinical.” It’s pretty much the opposite of what you’d be looking for in health care. Seems that the term IS correct, though.
As strange as it seems when I was in my twenties, breast exams were almost at every consult. I thought that was normal. I did not like it but I did know any better. I did not know that I was being sexually assaulted.
We were taught that we had to “put” up with that. Paps and pelvic exams for birth control as well. Even now I know women who think that you “have” to have Pap tests and manual breast exams because they “prevent” cancer. I blame other women for the abuse because either they never told me “if you go to that clinic this is going to happen” or they just said it was something that we had to go along with. It is rather the same as other women telling you that your husbad or boyfriend beating you up is all yourr fault. I an sick of the abuse and other women ENABLING abuse.
If it takes gathering evidence and going to police then do that to make it stop.
The police however sometimes have an issue with concent. You might consent to a medical exam. It does not mean that you cannot withdraw your consent to any part of the exam at anything. It is the same type of consent required for sexual activity. Or it should be. If at any time a person says the sex should stop, then consent is withdrawn. Or if a person is unconscious then they cannot give consent but medical procedures are allowed to some extent. I do not think that giving patients practice pelvic exams when they are awaiting unrelated surgeries is acceptable at all. So it is unclear sometimes about how consent is given or not given.
The problem might be that you gave consent to a breast exam but only under false pretences that it was required and you were coerced. Like someone who was coerced unto sex for getting a job or a rental unit. It is however an abuse of power and some type of fraud.
Hey everyone,
Just thought I’d let you know that I officially submitted my complaint online today – directly to the hospital.
Hopefully I should get some kind of acknowledgment sometime tomorrow, with a more detailed response by the end of the week.
It feels good to have just taken some action. Hopefully he gets a fright when he hears about the complaint! It’s probably the only revenge I’ll get (apart from him just having the complaint on record against him) so I’m hoping it’s a significant fright!
Good for you Coley, I hope he gets a fright too, a BIG gut-wrenching fright.
Routine breast exams are not recommended in the UK for women of any age, end of story. I can’t see how he could justify his conduct, I suspect he’ll deny he did a breast exam.
The hospital might try to fob you off or deal with it in-house, taking no real action, are you going to send a copy of your complaint to the relevant official body as well?
The fact the other women saw different doctors doesn’t matter much, but the fact there was no mention of breast exams is important….confirming they’re not recommended, necessary and certainly not “compulsory”…and were not mentioned by the insurer. The use of the word “compulsory” is important, IMO, he intended to back you into a corner, pressure you into accepting the exam. Predatory conduct, in my opinion…
Actually, I was thinking if an American insurer mentioned a breast exam (the routine breast exam is still promoted there) and the exam was conducted in the UK, they’d probably have to delete the clause or obtain express informed consent from the patient, “this exam is not recommended, it carries risk and is of no proven benefit etc.”.
Pleased you’re feeling better already. Now who has the power!
I wanted to let everyone know that I got an email from a male doctor who criticized my article, Tips For Female Patients To Prevent Sexual Abuse In Medical Settings (http://sexualmisconductbydoctors.com/femaletips.aspx) today.
Here’s what he said to me in the email:
I noticed your tips like “never go to a male gynecologist”, “never go to a male GI doctor for colonoscopy”,”never let a male EKG technician” etc.
Here’s a few thoughts:
I would like to make some recommendations on how you can present your information in a more scientific and accurate manner.
(1) Instead of saying generalizing and saying things like “many doctors” and “nearly half of all doctors” or “all male doctors” etc., It would be far more accurate and scientific to present the exact percentage of male medical doctors found guilty of sexual misconduct.
** Give percentages based on reliable data **
— For example according to a 2012 census there are 578,478 licensed male physicians in the USA and 264,846 licensed female physicians in the USA.
Next count up all the cases where a male and female was found guilty of sexual misconduct, do the division and report the percentage on your web site.
Question: Is it possible that the percentage is less than 1% of male doctors were ever found guilty of sexual misconduct? Do the statistics and present the information.
(2) Instead of saying chaperone’s do not help and something might happen too quickly etc — please provide some verifiable examples , and then do the statistics again. Figure out the total number of papsmears done every single year by male physicians and female physicians. The number should be over a million for each. Then divide just the complaints by that and present the statistics. It is possible that less than a tiny fraction of a percent had instances of sexual misconduct.
(3) you mentioned that not all the stories referenced are necessarily accurate. Perhaps you can put up a list of inaccurate stories so that people can know what not to do.
There are some young ladies out there who are actually in the news for lying. You can read about one story from england at this link http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6840553/Gynaecologist-attacks-false-allegations-after-sexual-complaint-withdrawn.html
I think it would be a smart idea to add that to your website so that people will know that not all accusations are true.
I believe that you will find that after getting the data , instances of sexual misconduct total services provided every year is less than a tiny fraction of a percent. — and that research would show that it is incorrect to generalize to all male medical doctors.
Why doesn’t he find statistics on how many doctors have prevented sexual (or any other) abuse? I guess that would be a pretty damn low number.
Another point is that he keeps bringing up whether something is “verified” or not, but that largely hinges on a conflict of interest, doesn’t it? Medical organizations calling something for what it is when it doesn’t look good for them? There a lot of determinations that are based entirely on in-house review. Cronyism isn’t just for the White House & if someone’s cut from the same cloth (and, I believe, that’s the point of certification) they won’t be too likely to go after things like that. Not really of a couteractive mindset.
The point that things aren’t always reported is another thing. Not really a hospitable environment when someone refuses something to begin with, so why would something being reported be met any differently? It wouldn’t be. That’s complaining to the source about the things it causes.
Someone might not have been found guilty of anything, but that doesn’t mean whatever situation didn’t happen. Interestingly enough, baseless lawsuits & wrongful convictions are something they ARE aware of. I guess there’s nothing wrong that comes from them.
When you are victim of a CRIME you do not want to be told that you are just a statistic. For example a certain number of women are sexually assaulted by strangers. Statically one particular woman might come in contact with any number of strangers per week that do not sexually assault her. Is she supposed to feel alright then that only a small percentage of strangers or even just one raped her?
Trying to ignore or minimize the problem is wrong. No one should get blamed for being sexually assaulted.
There can be many reasons why a sexual assault accusation can be withdrawn. Sorry I did not read the article yet.
Any health worker (male or female) should encourage women to bring their own chaperone (even their partner) at any time to protect themselves for being accused. If they find that inconvenient, then they should seek another profession or just see male patients. I might note that some male patients might also want chaperones to be present.
This would not totally prevent crime but greatly reduce it. It might also prevent predators from entering certain professions as they know they would likely be caught.
Misty, the male doctor who criticized your article was asking you to provide evidence in a “more scientific and factual manner”. What that doctor probably knew was that there are no statistics to support the claims of sexual abuse committed by doctors because IT HAS NOT BEEN RESEARCHED. If you read Sanda Roger’s article: Sexual Abuse by Health Care Professionals: The failed promise of reform, you will discover the difficulties in determining the actual numbers of cases of sexual assault by doctors.
A self-survey was done in the U.S., where doctors were sent surveys they could fill out and return anonymously. Of 1,000 physicians, 5 – 13% self-disclosed they had engaged in sexual contact or sexual assault of their patients.
What is know is that cases of sexual abuse are vastly under reported. Certain groups of women are at higher risk for sexual assault, such as women with disabilities, and of those women, 63% reported being sexually assaulted by someone in the health care system:
“Women with disabilities who are institutionalized at higher risk of being victimized by sexual assault, more than half of their victimizers are those in the health care system. He cites a 1990 study of women in psychiatric institutions, which revealed that:
… 37% of those interviewed had been sexually assaulted in adulthood;[93] in another 1986 study on women with disabilities, 63% indicated that while they were in an institution, they had been assaulted by someone in the health care system. According to the Canadian Panel on Violence Against Women, the ‘complete powerlessness in institutional settings [also] leaves [elderly women] highly vulnerable to sexual and physical abuse’.” http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/csj-sjc/ccs-ajc/rr06_vic2/p3_4.html
The incidence of sexual abuse by health care providers rivals levels found in the church and other major institutions: http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.ca/2012/03/medic-sex-abuse-worse-than-church.html
Here is a recent article on the subject: http://voxxi.com/2013/03/25/sexual-abuse-by-doctors-common/
Sue,
It is impossible for us to have full statistics for doctors who sexually abuse patients. I have gotten a number of emails from women who were sexually abused by doctors, but most of them felt intimidated to report the sexual abuse. For example, I tried to help one college girl to report sexual abuse by her male doctor at the infirmary, but she was afraid to report it. Her mom also encouraged her to not report it because she believed the doctor was just being thorough.
I can certainly see why sexual abuse in medical settings is much higher than the church. Women take their clothes off in medical settings for medical exams,. Women are less likely to take their clothes off in a church.
Misty
Misty, yes it is impossible and the numbers of articles on the subject are few and far between. It is an issue that is kept well hidden. In my own experiences, the only times I have experienced sexual abuse has been at the hands of male doctors. I never suspected a doctor could do such things though – until it happened to me. I think most women probably don’t suspect a doctor could be guilty of sexual abuse.
Sexual assault of women in health care goes beyond individual cases. The propaganda promoting pap testing establishes a platform for all women to be at risk of sexual abuse at the hands of health care providers. The fear mongering sets women up to believe they need to be pap tested. No doctor in my experience will tell women that cervical cancer is rare and no doctor will tell women that they have a choice. Pap tests are never presented as a choice. Women are led to fear a rare cancer, believe pap tests will be “life saving”, and are not given truthful information or a choice. With this as the base for pap testing, then a penetrative and intimate vaginal exam IMO is a form of sexual abuse.
Sue- The term for that is “mental vitiation.” They deceive some, thus it’s not them making their own decisions. They con someone into believing that these problems are much more common than they actually are, that these are both safe & effective methods of detecting these issues, and do not mention any risks, inaccuracies, or alternatives to these tests. Deception vitiates consent- that’s an important thing to keep in mind.
Mentally undermining someone’s autonomy is another point. It’s made out to be defective or immature for someone to have a problem with the mechanics of these situations. It’s not physically wrestling with them, but it’s trying to kick the chair out from under them mentally.
All of this as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. That’s pretty plain & simple. As a means to an end, it would still most likely be problematic due to the dynamics of the situation- even if everything worked as advertised & there was no compulsion taking place. Someone else acts as though that gets a “failing grade” & is somehow “vetoed” out of existence- but reality is not formed by recognition. Their argument is that something ceases to exist, despite it’s EXISTENCE. I know I’ve mentioned this before, but it comes up A LOT in medical situations. Intellectual negation does not generate a transformative influence on the situation.
I guess you could lump all these things together as social engineering or maybe just subtle tactics. Either way, they push these situations on people & then say “They’re free to make their own decisions.” Except for all the deception, coercion, and other tactics to shoulder someone into things. I guess they “only want what’s best for them” & these people have no right to decide what that is or override the doctor in any way.
Misty, you could always point him to the book on Amazon “America’s Dumbest Doctors” written by someone who worked in health care for 30 years and saw it all first hand. But the best bit you could show this male doctor is from a review of the book on Amazon
“The book is a collection of stories, jokes, statistics and other tidbits relating to the medical profession. Interestingly, the bad or questionable behaviors that see the light of day through this book are overwhelmingly committed by male doctors. The author says, “Every attempt to uncover female physician gaffes has been made…..Sadly, we just couldn’t find very many.” (Note to self: use female doctors whenever possible to greatly increase the chances of avoiding a bad apple.) “
What a revolting sense of entitlement. No need to REASON, to quote statistics, debate methodologies, a patient-doctor interatcion is not about publishing some academic paper! No means no, no ifs, no buts, and by the way, his argument is skewed, sexual harrassement is notoriously underreported, no one knows how many pap smears are exactly done, etc, I guess he just wants you to feel like a dumb little patient.
That hits a bull’s-eye, Karen! They DO feel entitled to review someone’s decisions & to disregard them at their discretion. They also act like someone’s pushing them around to counter theirs- like it’s bullying them for someone to comport their own medical situation.
Medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not academic value. That is exactly what “beneift to the patient” is referencing: the positive or negative effects that a situation has on the patient. The only one that can know this for sure is the patient, themselves.
“No means no” only applies to bathrooms & stairwells, as far as they’re concerned. This only applies to someone forcing things that would typically take place in a relationship of some kind. Although, if someone were to forcibly “play doctor” on someone, that would absolutely be assualt- regardless of gender, occupation, or designation.
Statistics would be unreliable anyway, sexual misconduct usually goes unreported, of the women who believe they were assaulted in the exam room, how many make an official complaint? Reading through forums, I get the impression most women don’t report these things. (and doctors know that) After a bad experience with a doctor, women might avoid that doctor or all doctors, might insist on a female doctor in future, and may carry trauma for years. I think many cope by pushing the experience out of their mind or telling themselves they were mistaken.
I agree also, that coercing and misleading women into pap testing, pelvic or breast exams is an assault. The system exposes women to risk by ignoring informed consent and consent itself.
Elizabeth (Aust),.
I agree with you. Most women never bother to report sexual abuse. One of my friends is in her 40s now and she is still traumatized by how she was sexually abused by a male gynecologist when she was 14 or 15. She has some lasting emotional damage which is very sad.
Misty
Mary,
Thank you for the information! Is this the book (http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Dumbest-Doctors-wonder-about/dp/1608441792/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1387828652&sr=1-1&keywords=america%27s+dumbest+doctors) you are referring to?
Misty
Yep Misty that’s the one. Not only does the book show that male doctors are more likely to sexually assault their patients, but they are also more likely to commit all sorts of other crimes as well. I think it’s about time the medical profession stops pretending that there is no difference between male and female doctors because clearly there is.
Why should medicine be any different? Most sexual assaults are committed by men, full stop. Doctors also, have more opportunity to assault and take advantage…and shape it as thorough medical care. Every time I hear of a young woman being pressured to have an opportunistic pap test, you have to wonder, I certainly do…a pap test provides Intimate access, places the woman in a vulnerable position, provides the opportunity to view up close and to touch. The bonus…they get target payments as well. When the system ignores informed consent and ofen consent itself,, that gives predators free reign.
Exactly right on everything, Elizabeth! It’s not going to change just because the situation moves into a different arena. It’s like “it’s not an insult if someone has an accent.” It’s the same thing at a different angle.
I’d add in that it IS possible for a woman to be a lesbian or bisexual (or just hate someone for being prettier, younger, whatever race, etc…). It also seems that women that are too old to have children of their own don’t really worry about any risks to that ability for other women that can. Not 100%, but there is that aspect as a potential.
“Free reign” is exactly the right term. It’s sometimes seen as something different than an attack in that environment, I guess because of an association with doctors, nurses, and medicine. The definition is different than the situation.
You know what’s odd? All these same things, if it happens in another country, is seen as a problem. If someone were to go to Mexico, for instance & all these same things were aimed at them, they’d see it as an issue. They’d also see it as an issue if these were the things that were done in that country (like the different things about Muslim countries that people talk about). Now it’s oppressive & it’s an attack regardless of the designation & they’d start wondering how other things go in that country (“If this is what flies in that situation, what happens in any other one?”).
straightforward female genital mutilation advocated by doctors in the usa until the 1960s:
“Female circumcision in the USA
Clitoridectomy and other circumcision-like operation on girls and women had a longer career in United States, where doctors deplored Baker Brown’s disgrace and The Medical Record defended him with the question “What now will be the chance for recovery for the poor epileptic female with a clitoris?” [11] There was also a vigorous attempt to apply the theories of Lewis Sayre – that many nervous diseases were caused by a tight or non-retractable foreskin – to women, and a number of doctors urged that girls also should have their clitoral hoods excised if there was any suspicion of adhesions of the accumulation of “secretions”. In 1892 another defender of Brown (he was “almost on the right track”), Dr Robert Morris, went so far as to suggest that, since 80 per cent of American women suffered from preputial adhesions, all schoolgirls should be inspected to ensure that proper separation between prepuce and clitoris had occurred. He was apparently confident that most of the girls would require surgery, and added: “The separation of adhesive prepuces in young unmarried women should be done by female physicians anyway, and such physicians can be abundantly occupied with this sort of work”. [12] It was a valiant effort to expand the market for medical services, and he must have been disappointed that his suggestions were not more widely taken up.
Even so, articles on the virtues of female circumcision continued to appear sporadically in American medical journals until the 1960s, and there are regular reports of girls or women being subjected to various procedures, particularly the shortening of their labia or clitoris when parents or a husband judged them “too long”. As with circumcision of boys, the medical case for female circumcision has always contained a strong element of cultural or aesthetic preference.”
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=13&id=76&Itemid=6
“Nearly all obstetrician-gynecologists would conduct bimanual pelvic examinations in routine visits with asymptomatic women across the lifespan for the vignettes presented (Figure 1). Nearly all respondents indicated that they would perform the examination in the 55-year-old despite the absence of her ovaries, uterus, and cervix, and over half believed it to be very important for this woman. ”
http://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(12)02070-4/fulltext
I purposefully have posted this in the sexual abuse thread. What else would this be?
From the same source: ACOG recommends annual pelvic examinations in all women aged ≥21 years, stating that “no evidence supports or refutes” performance of the examination in asymptomatic, low-risk women; the reasoning behind performance of the examination is not defined.3
What a joke.
“Reasoning undefined” sounds an awful lot like “no comment” at a press conference. I guess they don’t define their reasons (not that they matter) because the reasons are malignant. Ulterior motives aren’t very marketable & I don’t think too many women would see it as medically valuable. Also, have you ever noticed how things are always at whatever age is more or less considered to be adulthood? A lot of things aren’t safe for someone UNDER 18 (and 21 has somewhat replaced 18 as the “adulthood line”). I guess because someone could be charged with harming a child/minor, which is seen as worse than harming an adult. Maybe there’s also the angle of defense that “they’re adults, they make their own decisions”- even when the doctor is imposing their own. I guess coercion & deception is impossible when someone reaches the age of adulthood?
Interesting side-note: The age of consent is somehow pertinent but consent, itself, is not.
The also can’t say “I know it’s a problem, but I like problems.” Not without revealing themselves to be an enemy. So what happens? The situation gets made out to not be a problem & maybe someone else is being cruel for acting like they are the “bad guy.” Which would pretty much require reality to take a coffee break to be true- again, not something that’s going to be openly stated.
It’s a pretty sneaky tactic & I guess you’d call that “implicit reasoning.” That “this” or “that” would have to be the case for something to be true (and like I’ve said before: there tends to be a bit of a knee-jerk presumption of honesty & accuracy that gets used on people). It always amazes me how sneaky these people are & yet other people act like it’s not a deliberate thing. Yeah, everything’s an accident so there’s nothing to feel bothered by on that level (no sense of someone being “after you”).
If there is no evidence to support performing pelvic exams then why are they still performing them. A medical test, especially such an intimate one, shouldn’t be performed if there isn’t clear scientific evidence supporting its validity. It’s also interesting in your above link to the research study that some of the Dr’s responded that they perform pelvic exams for reassurance of the women. The reason that any woman would request a pelvic exam and need that reassurance is because Dr’s have stated for years that it is an important screening exam that is fundamental in women’s health care. Now am I to conclude based on those Dr’s responses that they aren’t performing pelvic exams because it is an important medical exam but they don’t really know why they’re performing them beyond it being rote and to reassure women. Further evidence against the presumption that the medical system is based on and practices from sound scientific research and methods.
Exactly, it is so arbitrary in this context, 18 and 21. No-one who is not a dimwit can believe girls at 18 will suddenly get cancer unless a good doctor jams their fingers up their vaginas. It is not only about the “rights”, ie consenting to the abuse of the scumbags, but about the “duties” of adult, they must maintain good adult bodies, ie object them to surveillance and the weird grooming.
Yeah, “duties” doesn’t imply a decision. It’s like an approval rating & the girl/woman will get smacked in the face emotionally if she doesn’t do as directed. Oddly enough- if she doesn’t leave an overbearing husband or one that hits her, she’s being stupid.
Like I said in a different post, that’s called “mental vitiation.” It’s really shocking that women do it to other women (and on the doctor’s behalf, no less). They get pissed if they’re not given equal pay or if someone says they can’t do something a man can do, but someone can make their own decisions with her body (or her kids’, relatives’, friends’, etc…). I really don’t mean to act like these are good things, but they’re considerably less severe.
The bimanual exam apparently is supposed to determine if the uterus is retroverted or whatever. This information really is not that important. The position of the uterus can change in pregnancy and even from some yoga exercises. So why would a woman need that every year?
Sticking fingers up vagina and a us are supposed to detect restocele or whatever is bulging, however if that is bad enough to need surgery or treatment a woman would complaining about it. Just ask a woman if she has trouble with constipation or sees blood in feces or dark stools instead of jamming fingers up those orfices.
Why do the genitals need to be inspected under a bright light? Ask a woman if she has warts or anything bothers her. If it is bad enough she would come in to see about it.
As much as I find Pap tests useless, self paps just make more sense to me. Some women do want them they should have them. But I think that a male doctor should consider that HE might be the problem and a female to do Pap tests or take swabs for bacteria should be offered as an option. Just a greedy doctor wants to be his quota for incentive payment, nothing about a woman’s health.
Yeah, I guess the doctor’s not convinced that someone isn’t lying to them. They figure they’ll investigate as they please & determine whether or not the dynamics are a problem (and, of course, something of that nature being imposed is only an issue in a stairwell or a crackhouse).
Speaking of which: When one of my cousins was little, she fell & cut her face at the store. She goes to the hosptial to get stitches & they make her take all her clothes off! Supposedly they were wondering if she had brusies from getting hit at home. I wonder what kind of tests they do if they suspect my uncle was “playing doctor” on her? This also happened with one of the boys (my mother’s cousins, so I guess second cousins?).
Just saw a book called “For Her Own Good: Two Centuries of the Experts Advice to Women.” Might be very interesting & it certainly seems to mention a lot medical things (along with the other things going on in the background that swayed these situations).
It’s by Barbara Ehrenreich & Deirdre English and it really does look good.
There seems to be the trend towards useless testing and record keeping, useless to the patient anyway. So ask about constipation and that justifies “consent” to a rectal exam that the patient is not really asked about, told why the test is being done or given any advice to remedy the condition. Would this take up too much time? It enables the abuse to take place and also “justify” the exam in the medical records. It is not the health care is want.
Naturopaths will interview a patient for 60 to 90 minutes intially but assess all the problems a person might have. Then after the most urgent issues are addressed then they usually have about 3-4 45-30 minutes per year to prevent health issues. Medical doctors will set up opportunities to abuse later and they only spent 15-20 minutes doing a physical, no counselling, just record keeping. They do not seem to have time, just only “come back in two weeks” so I can abuse and bill you later.
I suppose naturopaths could abuse patients as much sexually as any medical doctor. Just seems that more of them go into that profession to heal rather than to make money or abuse. Some chiropractors seems abusive and greedy to me though. I wonder if there is less abuse by doctors in countries where medical education is free or greatly subsidized?
Alex- the “For Her Own Good” book is really good. It specifically mentions pelvic exams in the context of “the crisis of the feminin” so that they are about assessing the patients reaction to penetration, because healthy women able to function in a nuclear family need vaginal orgasms and need to enjoy penetration. Finally one discourse in which the pelvic exam makes sense!
What? Sex is not all about penis-in-vagina stuff. Lesbians have been complaining about this in regards to healthcare prejudge forever. There are asexual women who just want healthcare for their reproductive parts and have no intention of using those organs for procreation or even recreation. Yet they are treated the same. There is too much of assuming that heterosexual sex is normal and homosexuality or a sexuality is a disease. It is not!
What I am protesting is the bimanual exam is rather useless, not informed and results not reported to the patient. So it is misused and done as a matter of routine rather than helpful as a diagnostic. How many doctors have told you why they are doing a bimanual exam and I your uterus position.
Having a retroverted or otherwise mail positioned uterus does cause menstrual pain, endometriosis and other problems yet these issues are rarely related. Certain yoga positions, Mayan pelvic massage, belly dancing, better posture can help reposition the uterus.
Uterine prolapse is a great problem to older women and restocele and other conditions a concern to many. Yet how many women have preventative measures discussed with them at doctor’s consults other than “do Kegel’s” . I think that too many surgeries are beng done on women just to make money. Not enough prevention is done in healthcare and I do not consider cancer screening as prevention at all.
Pelvic exams are mostly an opportunity for doctors to abuse not to educate about health or even sometimes diagnose unless some expensive therapy could be prescribed.
No faith in healthcare. I do not trust my doctor either. I have trusted very few doctors.
Moo, it isn’t just most gynecological surgeries that are often unnecessary. It is estimated that every year that millions of surgeries performed are unnecessary. The reasons are Dr incompetence or lack of training in less invasive alternatives, their personal bias of surgery is the only option, personal profit, and in some cases it is malpractice criminal behavior. I don’t mistrust Dr’s but I am certainly aware of their bias and that their knowledge is often limited especially when it comes to newer research findings and alternative/integrative health.
Well, the conditions of that penetration doesn’t cease to exist. That is a HUGE factor & the idea that the husband & wife will have a good sex life after prior trauma is somewhat doubtful. Never mind any role-playing scenarios.
I was going to say that doctors think by adjucation & try to “edit context” because they’re of the mind that reality is what they say it is (that it’s this personality trait presenting itself in their behavior). I was also going to say they figure they can edit their mistakes out of the situation & now they’re not wrong and that applies to wronging someone as well- because what happened didn’t occur.
I don’t think either of these things is really true, though. They definitely see when the situation isn’t going their way. They deliberately formulate tactics to generate this effect in counteraction of someone else. They deliberately figure out ways to lie & otherwise manipulate people to cover their tracks. It’s not accidentally presenting things as a fixed situation, using false claims, attempting to induce fear or guilt, or simply doing things to someone in their sleep. Mental vitiation is more subtle than physcially fighting someone, but it’s still an outside orchestration of whatever situation (and there can be a variety of them).
So I figure outright malice is the baseline reason. Altruism doesn’t produce ownership, but pretending to be charitably inclined might make someone feel guilty about treating the assailant like an enemy.
One other thing: look at the background for all these different things in history- torture, slavery, general arrogance, self-serving deceptions, unrelated deductions that may or may not have been false to begin with. Not really a lot of reason to presume that there will be a lot to gain from them, anyway. I guess sometimes the prospect of a missed opportunity for something that may have been useful can really get to people, but it can also chain someone to a bad situation. Someone keeps thinking that there will be something there for them at some point or that someone will one day tell the truth, but it doesn’t happen. It’s like a compulsive gambler, but with different subjects.
Hey ladies,
Thought I would give you an update on my situation. After I sent my complaint, I got an email the next day just letting me know that the hospital had received it. Then at the beginning of the following week, I got a letter from the hospital’s chief executive, basically reassuring me that they were taking the case extremely seriously and that they would do a full investigation. He said that they would be taking a full statement from the doctor and they would contact me as soon as possible.
On Monday the complaints manager at the hospital sent me an email saying that they had spoken to the doctor and taken a formal statement. She said that they would like me to attend a formal meeting where I’ll be able to expand on my points and have to answer questions regarding my statement. She said I’ll be shown a copy of the doctor’s statement so that I can comment on it.
Initially they wanted to do this meeting tomorrow but I’m shooting all day tomorrow, so I asked them to have it next Monday. Earlier today I spoke on the phone to the complaints manager just to make sure that the doctor wouldn’t be attending the same meeting. She said he wouldn’t, which is what I presumed anyway, but I wanted to check, because I was concerned I’d lose control of my emotions if he was there. I’d probably slap him lol. The complaints manager sounded like a very nice woman and she said she was going to be at the meeting. I asked if they’d got a copy of the medical report the doctor made for my physical and she said they had.
The significant development so far is that the doctor put on the report that he DID perform a breast exam on me. I’m guessing that he wrote in his statement that he just offered the exam and I accepted it or that I actually asked him to do one. Just the thought of him blatantly lying like that makes me angry! Anyway, I’m going to attend this meeting on Monday and just tell them exactly what happened and answer whatever questions they have.
I really should be going to sleep now lol
Hope you all had a great Christmas and lovely New Year! xx
That’s great, ColeyX! Hope it goes well.
I figure your story speaks for itself, but keep in mind that they might try to retroactively alter the story (“Well, is it possible that you asked for him to perform this exam?” or something similar). Things that throw you for a loop mentally are bread & butter tactic with that kind of “person.” It’s confusing BECAUSE it doesn’t make sense- that’s the point (I guess the overall idea would be called “mental vitiation”- like a mental version of what a fight is physically).
Anyway, thanks for the holiday wishes. Merry Christmas & happy New Year to you, too.
Great news ColeyX. I wonder if he added the breast exam to the report after he heard about the complaint. I have had doctors “doctor” my records in the past.
I doubt much will come of the investigation because no one died, they are not being sued, the police are not involved etc. that doctor might be wiser or just continue abusing. The abuse survivor, I am sorry to you but now we all know more about exams, that we have the right to with hold consent at any point in treatment or examinations.
Regardless of the outcome of the investigation itself, I am sure the process will make the doctor extremely uncomfortable and less likely to abuse in the future. Not many women lodge formal complaints and as Elizabeth has said, doctors know that. So whenever a woman takes the necessary steps to file a formal complaint, it decreases the risk of abuse and helps to protect future patients.
Coley X, I would be interested in his medical justification for performing a breast exam on an asymptomatic young woman. I would also be interested in his reasons for checking your heart and lungs without your bra on. He is skating on very thin ice. Well done for filing a complaint as it certainly re-addresses the power balance – I hope at the very least it gives him one hell of a fright.
Not to criticize, but even if there WAS some potential utility in doing that it doesn’t “justify” them applying this action of their own accord. If someone was at work & the boss coerced them into being topless & letting them grab her chest is sexual harrassment (or coercive attack, either term works). They frequently seem to think that their “attaching riders” to something makes it medically important.
I really do think that the doctor feels that the patient does not determine what does & does not happen to them. They feel that they, themselves, are independant & do as they choose- the patient comporting the situation in a different manner is now “bullying” them. I’ve found there’s no way to argue with someone like that, they can only be counteracted.
Jsut thought of something: You know when doctors or different publications say things like “women AVOID getting ____”? Well, I remember someone saying that it sounds like they’re doing something wrong by doing so & it does seem to be the intention.
I was thinking if maybe it was phrased (by other people, of course) that they are “ESCAPING” something (whatever things happen to be referenced, because there’s a few) that would depict things a bit more accurately. I figure the problematic nature of the situation would ring true for a lot of women. I guess it doesn’t get outright stated as an issue, since there’s various views that it’s immature to think compositionally or to have bodily autonomy or self-protectiveness.
Stethoscopes work perfectly well over light clothing. There is no reason to ask for a bra to be removed either. I had previously put up some reference to a study on that matter. This doctor might want to invest in a better stethoscope and learn to use it properly. Saying that the breast exam was compulsory is the huge issue here.
I hope he fries.
Exactly Chrissy. Do male models get testicular exams when they go on modelling assignments?
I searched all over the web the other day trying to find UK guidelines for breast exams for asymptomatic women and I could not find any mention of them. This obviously means that are not meant to be done at all so I can’t wait to hear how he is going to justify this.
Alex,
I agree that even if the breast exam was medically indicated, he should still not have imposed it as mandatory. My point was that if he is unable to clinically justify the exam, then the board looking at the complaint are more likely see it as an abuse of his position and a serious breach of trust.
Oh, I get it- it’s not something that would work for anything, so it makes it MORE obvious that he’s lying.
Hi everyone,
I went to that meeting this afternoon that I was talking about. All in all, there was pretty encouraging news.
The hospital review panel said that they would finish their investigation and let me know on Thursday whether they thought this case was serious enough to refer to an independent panel – put together by NHS England. They said that after their investigation so far and everything I said today, that they were LIKELY to take this next step and refer the incident.
They said that I was right to have made a complaint and that my concerns were legitimate. Apparently this independent panel will determine the extent of any wrongdoing and whether any disciplinary action should be taken. But it’s not guaranteed to get that far yet. I’ll have to wait till Thursday.
About the actual meeting, the whole thing was relatively pleasant. There were three other people, the hospital CEO, the complaints manager and a legal representative. The general vibe from all of them was quite positive and understanding – the complaints manager (a woman) complimented my boots lol.
They gave me a copy of the doctor’s version of events to read through. There were two main points here.
Firstly, he said that he initially listened to my heart with me having my bra on, heard some noises that could have indicated turbulent blood flow, THEN asked me to take it off to check more thoroughly in case of a murmur. He lied. I explained what actually happened, that he told me to take my bra off BEFORE listening at all. They actually seemed more concerned about this than the breast exam. I distinctly remember the CEO saying that it would be extremely unnecessary to listen for heart noises so carefully at a routine physical since I had no relevant history, and that usually you can do so without removal of the bra anyway.
Then we spoke about the circumstances leading to the breast exam. The doctor wrote that he offered to perform a breast exam in order to be thorough and that I accepted the offer. Another blatant lie. I told them how I initially refused the exam but that he said it was ‘compulsory’ for the physical and that he ‘needed to do it’ to finish the medical report. The legal rep (also a woman) asked, if I felt that uncomfortable, why I didn’t just leave? I told them that in hindsight that’s exactly what I should have done but, at the time, I knew I needed to pass the physical to go on the trip for my shoot, and that I felt too intimidated to really do anything. They all said that if this was true then it would be a serious breach of trust and that even if what he said was true, it was still inappropriate to even offer the exam – since the NHS doesn’t recommend clinical breast exams for young women.
So that’s basically what happened today. I hope you’re all enjoying the New Year. xx
Coley, thank you for the update.
I am very glad that the panel was treating you with respect; and that even if that sleazy doctor manages to wiggle out and convince the investigators that he wasn’t lying and you consented to the exam, he will be in trouble anyway — this exam should not be offered to young women, full stop.
Great effort Coley! Thanks to people like you we have a some chance of getting rid or reduce medical misconduct. 🙂
ColeyX
Thanks for keeping us posted, I’m so pleased it went well.
I think this doctor is in big trouble – also, you now know you were assaulted in the exam room, your instincts were 100% correct – you know he’s “doctored” his statement. He can’t tell the truth, it would incriminate him, but his version of the events is hardly believable, if you’d agreed to an elective breast exam, you wouldn’t be complaining now. (doctors need to understand even making the offer is unacceptable. Doctors don’t offer men a quick routine check of the testicles, do they?) He can’t get away from the fact that routine breast exams are not recommended, and saying the exam was “compulsory” amounts to coercion. Personally, I feel the matter should be referred to the Police and not just a disciplinary board, this man assaulted you and that’s more than misconduct, it’s a criminal offence. I’ve never understood why abuse by doctors can be dealt with by the profession and treated as something less than assault.
Anyway, this man did not get away with it, he’ll have to be very careful in the future. I wonder whether there have been other complaints about this man. Your actions have probably spared other young women from the same abuse.
Another interesting point: If someone, patient or not, comes into the doctor’s office & starts touching them, much less self-electively probing them, that WOULD be handled by the police. If they reported it, that is.
I’d be very cautious of the police, though. A lot of the stuff they do runs a very close parallel with the types of things doctors pull- sometimes they’re getting doctors to do it for them, in fact. They might not like the idea of someone going against that sort of thing. They also seem to be the ones advising women not to fight back if someone tries to rape them, as well. Just keep in mind that it might be a bit of a coin-flip with them.
I know I’ve mentioned this type of thing before, but if you read about what happened to that diplomat from India you might get a bit more of an impression of what you’re dealing with. This woman was a DIPLOMAT & still they decided to strip search her (and, apparently, probe her repeatedly). If that’s how they’ll act in spite of the fact that the law seems to forbid it, how are they going to be when the law DOESN’T forbid it?
This was considered “standard arrestee intake procedures” & getting arrested doesn’t depend on having done something- an arrest is part of “sorting things out,” yet this would be worse than what it proportionate to most crimes if they DID occur.
Why didn’t you leave? another blame the victim excuse.
I wanted to share a link to statement of a former patient of Dr. LaFuria, a male gynecologist who abused numerous women at http://www.kplctv.com/story/24400629/statement-from-former-lafuria-patient-released.
I can’t believe he only gets 8 years for that. I bet if he kidnapped the judge & didn’t do anything else, strange or not, it’d be a lot worse.
For whatever “abusing a juvenile” means in this case, he should get death. I’m usually the type to distrust varius charges from law enforcement (a major part of that is because they do these sorts of things, themselves- officially & unofficially), but given all the surrounding circumstances I’d say pulling the trigger is pretty sinless.
Hey everyone,
I was told today that the hospital review panel WERE going to refer my incident to the independent NHS panel.
The hospital’s complaints manger called me to tell me this earlier today. She said that their review decided that, at best, this doctor had behaved inappropriately and unprofessionally.
I asked her what happens next and she said that the NHS panel will decide whether or not to impose a sanction – usually an official warning or a period of supervision. They could also decide to take this to a GMC (General Medical Council) disciplinary hearing or even refer it to the police. The independent panel are going to meet on January 28th and she said I should hear what they decided on the 29th.
She was quite honest and said that it was unlikely the independent panel would get the police involved, given that there is little evidence regarding the opposing statements – at one point she actually used the phrase, ‘Your word against his’. I forgot to mention this last time, but they told me on Monday that there haven’t been any serious complaints made against this doctor before. She was really nice about the whole thing though.
I’m actually quite happy about how this is turning out. My aim was just to get an official complaint on record against him – firstly to discourage him from doing something like this again, and secondly, to scare him lol. Now it looks like he might actually get some sort of punishment – even if it’s just a minor one, it’s still something and he’ll be terrified of the consequences if he does anything like this again. I’m hoping this whole thing is making him lose some sleep lol.
Thanks again everyone for your words of support. xx
That’s still good news Coley.
The doctor will get a complaint record, and if he ever does anything of the sort again and the victim acts like you did – he will not get away with it next time, for sure!
I wish more women behaved like you did. That would mean the doctors would not only think twice before doing anything nasty, but it would also make it much easier for the next victim, it it comes to it at all.
I hope it also helped you feel better: you took actions, and you won. You punished the wrongdoer, and that made you a winner who will keep the victory in her memory, rather than a victim who would have to live with bitter memories of being violated (most women end up being the latter, unfortunately).
My sincere congratulations! 😉
I was very disturbed about what happened to this lady who went to ER for stomach pains at http://www.mysexualabuse.com/threads/uncomfortable-pap-smear-exam.664/. It is so ridiculous that a male doctor in ER told this lady she needed a pap smear when she came in for stomach pains. Pap smear is a test for cervical cancer and not for stomach problems. I wish that this male doctor had been charged with sexual abuse. It is easy for patients to be taken advantage of in ER. There are also some other comments that you all may be interested in reading.
Misty
Yeah, the E.R. can be a very dangerous place. They decide to comport a situation according to their discretion (which can mean anything) & then act like they are being attacked if someone tries to alter the course of that situation. If someone is wounded it puts them even more at a disadvantage, just like if they trust these employees & find out suddenly that they are now a threat.
“We don’t have time, we have to save lives” type of arguments abound. They “don’t have time” for what, exactly? To NOT molest the patient? Or to NOT waste other people’s crucial time with things that would be superfluous even if it had been consensual?
Some people tend to confuse or misuse the term Pap test for pelvic exam. A pelvic exam might be indicated for a women with abdominal pain because the cause could be etopic pregnancy, PID, miscarriage but many other questions would be asked as well. It could be appendix but even just a bad case of gas.
A Pap test itself would be ridiculous and just opportunistic. It a tumour in the uterus, vagina or cervix was large enough to cause pain it would be felt or seen during a pelvic exam either feeling or seen with a speculum exam. Then an ultrasound would ordered. Pap test which is cytology (looking at cells under a microscope) would not be too help in a critical situation.
I wanted to let you all know that Dr. LaFuria, the male gynecologist who took pictures of women’s genitals was sentenced to 8 years in prison according to http://www.wwl.com/Louisiana-Doctor-sentenced-for-photographing-patie/18145731.
Misty
Sickening enough. This doctor got caught taking photos and videos of his unsuspecting patients.
There are probably thousands of doctors and medical staff or others doing this and not getting caught. The penalties are high enough – not being able to practice medicine (or do they just move to another jurisdiction).
How many doctor’s office, mammogram and ultrasound clinics, change rooms and washrooms have secret cameras in them?
Colposcopies are video recorded. I find this disturbing.
Another gynaecologist sex offender grooms his vulnerable patient into an unhealthy relationship. Once again he was a known sex offender inside the walls of the medical patriarchy yet still allowed to practice. Unfortunately Jezebel blames the perils of cyber space and not the institution that has worked to create these creeps in the first place.
http://jezebel.com/the-terrible-tale-of-the-sexting-gyno-1501445820
I encourage you all to look at my comments about sexual abuse in medical settings at http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2014/01/patient-modesty-volume-62.html#c5689772697975267576. Look at how Dr. Bernstein responded. I encourage you all to consider posting comments to support me.
Misty
I read over on Dr Bernstein’s blog and I think his intentions are good and I like that he is teaching his students about modesty. Unfortunately at other times I don’t think he gets that violations of modesty and of bodily autonomy in the medical world are not uncommon. It begins with informed consent. Recently I was at the Dr and again I was presented with the word “have to” and it was only after I refused that I was informed that I could. Ethically any medical test or procedure has to be presented with the option of refusal. To not present the option of refusal and to go ahead is a violation of bodily autonomy and could have psychological implications for the patient. Modesty and sexual assault are also not two separate issues. Sexual assault or assault is not always exhibited with overt behavior but is about power and control over someone. That power and control can be not providing informed consent, exposure when it’s not required, exposure beyond what is required, or not providing adequate coverage or proper draping. A medical professional who has the mind set of being in control is not going to be concerned with a patients modesty.
It’s a self-defense concern, not a modesty issue. I can emphasize enough how it comes off like it’s other than an attack. It’s never called a “modesty concern” if someone fights off an attacker in the bathroom & that’s the correct category for this kind of thing.
Take a different situation, for instance: If there were a bunch of patients getting poisoned by doctors & nurses, the article would probably be titled “Patient Safety” or “Dangers of a Hospital Stay,” right?
An article titled “No Means No, Doctor!” would be a good one. I would vey much like to see a flood of articles that flat-out say things that are argued against all the time: Properties DON’T change by designation, that medical risks ARE still risks, that medical personnel imposing things of this nature is an IATROGENIC ATTACK.
I have to ask that my comments here not be posted on other forums without my permission. It was never my intention that my post here be posted on Dr Bernsteins blog.
Hi Misty,
I used to go to Dr. Bernstein’s blog and I commented there a few times. I came to regret both actions.
In my opinion, whatever good intentions he may espouse, he JUST DOESN’T GET IT. He is much more an apologist for his colleagues than an advocate for his patients. How else does one account for his frequent assertion that systematically oppressed patients need to “speak up”?
I appreciate your excellent efforts at being an assertive advocate on his blog. You have raised excellent points, and I admire your courage in doing so. I also really like your blog. I wonder if you would consider having a “comments” or “discussion” section on Medical Patient Modesty? It would be good to have somewhere in addition to the Bioethics blog to go to discuss these issues.
I don’t post on Dr Bernstein’s forum either, I do recommend Dr Joel Sherman’s blog though, he does listen and he’s taken some brave action on our behalf. (“Informed consent is missing from pap testing” which was published on Kevin MD and the WSJ) He also, tackled the female doctor who closed a thread on her blog when women started questioning the need for pap tests. (can’t stand her, she’s deleted a few of my posts too)
I haven’t posted over there in a while…but I shouldn’t forget his site and BlogCritics were the first forums that didn’t delete or make changes to my posts. We all know what happened at BlogCritics, I suspected they would come under pressure to get rid of the thread and silence so many informed posters. I simply don’t believe it’s taken this long to reload the comments. Too many powerful people would have wanted that thread gone.
I doubt that will happen at Dr Sherman’s site.
That thing with Blogcritics was both suprising & not suprising. There was so much in the way of information that someone might just benefit from it! I hope more people start putting up sites that include these subjects. I’d think pregnancy sites & really anything that mentions different medical things would have them. I’d strongly suggest for this to come up in conversation enough for it to be commonplace & remembered (not ALL the time, but frequently).
It doesn’t even have to be strictly dedicated to this topic- it could just be “peppered” with different things. I do this all the time in conversation, actually. Saying “it’s your body, your rules” is pretty multi-use & it comes up at a few different angles. Same with “properties don’t change because of designation/a situation is what it consist of.” Can apply to pretty much anything.
If someone just so happens to mention that “a lot of things that are “suggested” to women don’t work as advertised” while talking about various conditions that someone might think they have. That these tests have low utility & high risk just rolls right off that starting point. One can very simply say that “even if something is a means to an end the dynamics of that method might be an issue in itself.” “It’s not immature or defective to have bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness or to think compositionally,” runs right off of that.
Luckily, the lost comments from BlogCritics have been saved and re-posted in the new Unnecessary Pap Smears blog by the hostess of this web site!
Big thanks to Sue for dedicating hours of her time to help other women to find the vital information!
Google will index the new location and the other women will be able to find the comments.
so horrible
http://www.medicaldaily.com/marianne-keith-52-sues-hospital-over-ultrasound-rape-something-was-done-me-she-says-256508
I wanted to let you all know about this sad story: Cop ruptures 16-year-old’s testicles during frisk at http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/cop-ruptures/#axzz2rX0YPojQ . A female police officer ruptured this teenage boy’s testicles. This boy had to undergo surgery. This should have never happened. It is not just the medical profession that you have to worry about.
Misty
From 2012, a point in time when pretty much every major news outlet has published the growing research that pelvic exams are not evidence based, and never have been. What excuse does Jezebel have to blatantly perpetuate what essentially is medical rape, by giving the victims patronising survival tips? “The key to a good pelvic exam is communication. “…? Oh excuse me, just shut up!
http://jezebel.com/5878551/how-to-prepare-for-a-pelvic-exam-if-youre-a-sexual-assault-survivor
A quote from among the comments: “You can request pediatric instruments, to have a friend present, or valium.” It beggars belief. Benzos are super addictive, and going cold turkey can actually kill. Messing with something powerful like valium to go through this disgusting, dangerous, humiliating exam based on no whatsoever scientific evidence, and not done in most of the western world….
An other comment: LdfzjtletatxUbeth441L
I have a friend who had skin cancer on the inside of her labia minora, which was identified during a pap smear / pelvic exam. 1/23/12 7:20pm
How many men worry about skin cancer under their testicles…? I would like to know what drives this utter irrationality when it comes to women who allow these revolting exams.
Yes, the focus is firmly on our reproductive organs and breasts, while heart disease remains the top killer of men and women. (lung cancer is the No. 1 cancer)
Women are conditioned to fear their own bodies, view them with suspicion so they readily hand control over to the medical profession. I think medicalizing the asymptomatic female body occurred when the medical profession was made up almost entirely of men, so menstruation, childbirth etc. were all viewed as medical issues (rather than natural and normal) and things to be controlled by doctors for our “own good”.
Also, the skin cancer found during a pelvic exam, did this really help the woman? It might not have changed a thing, the same outcome achieved if she’d eventually found it herself. Also, some cancers never progress and are not worth finding – many thyroid, kidney, breast and prostate cancers fall into that category. Almost all “abnormal” cells removed form the cervix would not progress to invasive cancer. No other part of the body is subjected to such close and regular scrutiny right through life with every “abnormal” result monitored and most women eventually biopsied and many end up “treated”. This insane focus on the cervix means an in-tact cervix is now an endangered body part.
Also, I don’t do anything that exposes me to risk to screen for a rare event and skin cancer on your labia would be a rare event.
I’ll stick with the sensible approach, cover the basics and focus on the real threats to my life. I also, enjoy life and don’t want to waste time (and nervous energy) having unnecessary exams/tests/biopsies/treatments. Life is far too short. I cannot imagine how horrible it must be to have a medical life, regularly climbing into stirrups, having biopsies and “treatments” etc.
There’s actually a book called “For Her Own Good.” Don’t know if you guys know about it, but it covers a lot of history.
It really is shocking that people that do these kinds of things are considered trustable. The focus on how doctors treat women is a bit of an indicator of how things might go, in general. “Iatrogenic harm” is not a commonly known term (at least in America- I know I’ve always had to explain what that meant), but it does kind of slip a general theme into joint.
Women, I think, are more self-critical than men & that gets used against you in a couple of ways. The simple theme of “your body is trash” is one & Elizabeth just referenced it. Another one is that she’s immature, stupid, or otherwise defective for self-protectiveness & thinking compositionally. Same goes for not outsourcing her decisions to others.
Another one is guilt- that’s a button that gets hit quite a bit, particularly in medical settings. Ever hear of the concept of “purchasing?” What it means, in this case, is getting someone to feel increasingly guilty & figure they deserve scorn/detriment/etc… . This isn’t to say that nobody should ever feel guilty about anything or that nobody ever has it coming, but it’s possible to just act like that’s the case without a groundwork of honesty being there.
Speaking of purchases, there’s also the sense of actual consumer satisfaction. Someone feels like they made a good purchase & didn’t get scammed. Of course, in this case, it’s a bit more than a scam- considering dynamics.
Doctors giving healthy women dangerous and addictive DRUGS (valium is rather sought after in the black market) so women allow them to penetrate their vagina… excuse, me are they not afraid of litigation? They seem to fear it so much when someone wants the pill without a pap smear.
So they give someone something that is very addictive, in combination with probing them? Sounds an awful lot like the pattern of getting someone hooked on heroin & “playing doctor” as the fee when they try to get some more. Might not be too easy to get their hands on an arbitrary prescription.
When they mention legal problems if they give someone the pill without probing them, here’s a good response: “No, you won’t get into any trouble for that. You WILL have trouble for coercive iatrogenic assault & reproductive endangerment, though.”
For a coup de grace, you could add: “Properties don’t change because of designation- just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder.” I think that would sound like a courtroom argument that they wouldn’t have any room to bullshit people (and thus, couldn’t win)- they can’t very well say “A situation is NOT what it consists of & what happens ISN’T what occurs.”
“reproductive endangerment” hahaha, thanks for this concept!
You’re welcome & it’s my pleasure! It’s one of the major reasons I post on this site.
I very much love to put holes in their bullshit & chop down their efforts at “assaultive interfaces.” That’s a good term for anything that goes against you, really. I notice a lot of people seem to not know what to say when this sort of thing comes up & usually the term “humiliating” is what’s used. That doesn’t seem to quite cover it, though (especially becaue it sounds, at least to me, like someone sees themselves as lower because of other people’s actions).
I hope this doesn’t come off as condescending, but if you want a few more:
(1) Something being “antagonistic to your alignment” is when something is against the grain. Hard to phrase the problem of it clashing with you, but not being pain-related.
(2) Someone being “sexually confrontational” is a good way to describe someone being an antagonist on that level.
(3) The “constituents” are what something consists of, just like ingredients (don’t know why it’s not called “constitutents”).
A lot of this is just simply putting words to the situation by describing it, but a lot of these aren’t really common terms- so it doesn’t pop into someone’s head to use them.
This is why I’ll never go back to the obgyn. I’d rather die before being bullied, harassed, & lied to.
The number 1 killer in women is heart disease, yet doctors don’t scream for women to go to the cardiologist every year. Cervical cancer is rare. Why all the hysteria over a rare cancer? I’ll tell you why, MONEY! I’d rather die then subject myself to that bullshit test.
Keep in mind that heart disease is facilitated by hysterectomies, so there’s yet another situation of biological undermining right there. “Oh, this isn’t a problem- but lets cut things out of you, anyway. This, in itself, causes other problems? Oh. Well, is your insurance going to be paying for all this, or… .”
Outright malice can be another reason, as well as general pervyness. Don’t forget assorted issues with women. Or with life, in general. That, of course, would aim quite a bit at women- particularly toward certain areas.
It’s very respectable that you’d sooner die than lose your life in the form of other people hi-jacking it. Things along these lines tend to stick with people, it doesn’t matter what the variation is.
It is true that a hysterectomy can increase a woman’s chances of having heart disease. Check out this article that I wrote last year about how hysterectomies are often unnecessary at http://patientmodesty.org/unnecessaryhysterectomy.aspx. I am very concerned about the high rates of hysterectomies in the United States.
Misty
http://www.babycenter.com/400_my-best-friend-is-33-and-never-had-a-pap-smear-and-refuses-w_13072678_95.bc
Again utter idiots commenting:
“How did she ever avoid it all this time anyway? She must have a very detached and unattentive family doc! If my family doctor noticed I had never had a paptest or pelvic exam, I can assure you I’d be in the stirrups that day, even if I had just went in to get antibiotics for a cold! This poor woman slipped through the cracks of our healthcare system and never had any follow through or comphrensive care in her life I guess. Either that or has avoided doctors her whole life, but I highly doubt that. ”
Does it not occur to these people that it is none of their business? I bet the best friend of the poster has presented EVICENDE (there is plenty) about how damaging and useless these fishing expeditions are- why can’t she just accept it? How dare these people police and bully someone they call their best friend? Why does it hurt them this much someone choses to live differently? I do not buy it that she worries for her- then she would respect her autonomy! Sounds like a frenemy not a true friend. (Mines bitch together with me when it comes to such oppressive, costly and dubious practices and the NHS cervical screening programme. Actually one of them has sent me the crying boy poster in an email accompanied by very, very crude swearing. My boyfriend has gotten very angry about that poster too, and he agrees with me about the futility of such “healthcare”. What a lucky, very lucky girl I am!)
That woman is outright stating that the doctor makes their own move & the patient doesn’t decide what happens to them. And she’s acting like it’s a deprival for someone to NOT be in this situation, themselves. What a bitch!
Did your “friend” actually sent you that poster & curse at you?! That’s unbelievable (well, not really)! Try asking if she wants to do the honors herself- I bet that causes a bit of jam. It’s really only as vulgar as the situation is, because they’re trying to orchestrate all these things going on.
Try accusations, too. If you were to bring it up like this: “Do you want me to have something happen to me that’s against my alignment?” or “Do you want me to get a disease/injury/miscarriage?” Someone’s got to pretty directly clash with you at that point & can’t say “I just care about you.” As you said: they’d respect your autonomy & also they’d actually take into account the composition of the situation. If they really cared they’d be able to drop the previous esteem they held something in.
Not to tell you how to do things in your relationship, but have you ever told him how lucky you are to be with him? Things like that really can make the guy’s day in a big way.
Alex- just to clarify, my Friend has cursed because the poster made her so angry. She knows much better than to ever have these revolting tests (or to try to bully me)…
There was also another very disturbing comment which said something to the extent of: “How can you be okay with a 33 year old women never having a pap? She’s never really gone through a rite of passage to womanhood. This is something a mother goes through with her daughter. I didn’t want my first exam but what woman does? None of us but our mothers made us go, went with us, and got us on birth control ‘just in case’. Everyone has sex and I am sure this woman has and will. She could have cancer or STDs who knows. She should be on birth control, even if just to lower risk of cancer. It’s an essential part of women’s healthcare. I don’t think women should be able to refuse these exams and they should be mandatory. It’s going to end up costing society more in the end.” Some of that was taken directly from the comment, some of it was paraphrased. It truly is disturbing that women think this way. As for birth control being used to lower cancer risk, it lowers the risk for some cancers but increases the risk for others. Not to mention it can cause blood clots and any time you put any sort of chemical or medication into your body, there are some sort of side effects. Some aren’t severe or even noticeable, but it always alters the body in some way. Furthermore, birth control should be a personal decision. What about those who don’t believe in using it because of their spirituality or religion? That should definitely be respected. Not everyone has sex. There are people who never have and there are people who never will. Some are asexual and some choose to be celibate. That’s life. Lastly, I don’t understand how a woman refusing gyno exams costs society. Also, I’m very concerned with the comment that these exams should be made mandatory. If you want them for yourself and have made an informed decision – then more power to you! That being said, everyone should be able to choose how they take care of their bodies. Some people are very medical and rely on science. Others take a more holistic approach and think of things from a more spiritual and natural perspective. All should be respected. Not taunted, bullied, or harrassed for making an informed decision.
Ro,
I’ve always found it so strange that mothers force their daughters to get pelvic exams. I know I started seeing an OB/GYN when I was 11 simply because everyone in my family is in medicine and I knew her personally from social things, so I asked if she’d be my doctor. I didn’t know what gynecologists actually did, just that she was a doctor for women and she delivered babies. She tried to make me get a Pap smear then, but my mom told her she was full of it. I’ve never really been delusional about Pap smears. My dad is a pathologist and he was always very open with me about HPV’s role in cervical cancer, and I always knew a fair bit about it simply because my mother was one of the very very very few who had cervical cancer at 25 (we know this because my dad was the one who diagnosed it). It was caught completely by accident, she had been seeing a gynecologist every month since she was 14 (she had a deformed reproductive system and her period had no way out, so they had to deal with it every month until she was able to get vaginal reconstructive surgery). Because if all of this, I was very confused when I suddenly couldn’t get my birth control anymore when I was 18. I remember being in the nail shop and talking about it, and my nail lady said with horror, “You haven’t had a Pap smear yet?! You’re 18!” I told her that no, and I definitely wouldn’t be getting one until at least 21, probably later since I knew I wouldn’t be sexually active at that point. Her response? “But honey you HAVE to get one. Your parents are going to miss you so much!” My mom told people like that (and there were a lot who tried to tell her that her cancer was hereditary) that they could fuck right off.
I was talking to a friend about this (she wants to do ER med, I want to do OB/GYN), and she said she could never do GYN because she could never deal with mothers trying to force their daughters to get checked out. She said she’d get too angry. I know I fully plan to threaten to call CPS with every mother who tries it with my future patients. It’s so unethical to allow someone to give consent for a procedure of any kind to happen to someone else’s body.
ladyprotips – I’m sorry to hear your mother got diagnosed with such a terrible disease (as well as the deformed reproductive system), especially so early on in life, but I’m glad to know she ended up being okay! I’m glad to know your mother always stood up for you! Mine always has as well. Recently (as in the last 20 or so years) it’s become the norm for girls to go to the gyno as soon as they get their first period, even if they’ve never been sexually active and are asymptomatic. It’s wonderful that you’ll be standing up for the rights of your patients (and it sounds like your friend will be too)! If only there were more doctors out there like that; willing to stand up for people. I’m not saying there aren’t doctors out there who do, it’s just that you rarely hear of it.
Ladyprotips- I just imagine the nail shop lady and the other nosy strangers shouting at a 18yrs old girl “you haven’t been sexually assaulted yet?!” “You haven’t had your vagina penetrated against your consent yet, haven’t been coerced into allowing strangers to violate you.. but that’s the rite of womanhood!” Would she have reacted in such a manner, if she had caught you, say, eating trans-fats mixed with sugar from a bucket? I bet no… but not having these exams, this downright outrages these mob of responsible women, and they react so out of concern for the life and well-being of a total stranger, for whose boundaries and bodily autonomy they show no whatsoever respect.. aha, sure…
Ro- You’re totally right about everything. Whoever posted that is a complete piece of shit! Look how she (?) talks: Especially about the part that these tests should be forced & woman shouldn’t be able to refuse being probed! If a guy says something to the effect of: “The only choice the woman should have is whether the lights are on or off,” that sets off some warning bells, doesn’t it? Willing to bet it was the FATHER pushing this on the girl, that would be considered everything that it actually is.
And “How can you be OKAY with…?” Seems like someone presumes being a combined person. One more thing: who cares about what the costs are to a society that would do these sorts of things? That’s like worrying about an enemy losing their paycheck!
Karen- I got a good laugh out of your post (because of how stupid those people would look). It’s interesting that people criticize the middle east about virginity testing & such, but the same sort of thing in another country is not only acceptable conduct- it’s applaudable!
They’ve got a strange concept of womanhood. It fits in with that whole liberated/independant/strong theme to be commandeered by doctors or whoever else that acts this way? Very impressive. Not at all something to ridicule or, more accurately, ridicule BACK.
Why don’t women hate the other women that are trying to bully and, indeed, molest them? It seems like women tend to start directing that hate inward & then sabotaging themselves as if they deserve these things to happen. I’m not trying be scathing or anything, but never understood that. It’s like the concept of honor in all those Japanese movies: where someone treats someone else badly & that is somehow reflects badly on the person they did that to. That someone is dishonorable BY treating somoene badly that doesn’t deserve it.
Ladyprotips- That’s good that you’d block the situation & report them for doing things like that. It’s child abuse to do something like that- just like if they were to do that themselves.
It’s pretty shocking that more women don’t just ahndle things themselves. Plenty of women cut their own hair & wax their own legs- I’d think a situation like this it’d be even more of a pertinent thing. Never mind that cutting your hair wrong doesn’t cause miscarriages!
Alex
It makes you realize how successful these programs have been, many women fear even mentioning they don’t have/want pap tests or mammograms, why?
I don’t see the same level of fear, intimidation and concern if we choose not to have bowel screening.
It’s the control thing that changes the dynamic, the medical profession makes decisions for women, they control us and our bodies, we’re expected to do as we’re told. These attitudes have been normalized in women’s healthcare, so many women see it as appropriate, they’ll side with the medical profession and attack and judge the non-compliant or questioning woman. The release of real information is regarded as reckless and dangerous, why? Because “they” have decided all women will screen, it’s just a Q of “capturing” us, and anything that empowers us to fight back is a huge threat.
Amazingly, even in 2014, most agree real information is a threat to these programs and so, inappropriate. Even in the UK with more discussion about informed consent, women are still being treated like farm animals at the surgery level. “Screen or you can’t be my patient” etc.
This is not screening, it’s a misuse of power, to deny us our rights; they accept risk on our behalf…resulting in lots of worry, distress and harm.
It shows you just how powerful these groups are…that so few women even today take the time to check the evidence or even view screening as an option, something we can reasonably decline. I recently read an article on falling screening rates and it was disappointing to see so many women say, “I know we have to screen, but why can’t they develop something less invasive”…etc.
There is that word “must”…we’re been told that for decades so most accept screening is something we MUST do. (of course, there is a non-invasive option, but it’s not being offered to women)
Some of the most intelligent women I know are passionate screeners, (quite a few have been “saved”…of course) they spout the screening “story” and lecture women from their moral high ground, IMO, they’ve been completely conned. I think it takes a certain type of mind to look at this subject with an open mind…despite the never ending propaganda, pressure and lack of real information.
That’s why I’m sure the people on this forum share a few valuable traits…and one of them is probably: I think for myself, I do not blindly follow the herd.
Yes, it certainly does. The whole MUST thing always shocks me. After all, what happens is what occurs. I’m pretty sure if any of these women were told you MUST forgive your husband if he cheats on you or punches you in the face, they’d take issue with it. Certainly, there are no “MUSTS” in the bedroom (there’s plenty of things this could apply to- including “playing doctor”). That weird “reverse down-trodden” mentality that a lot of people have is always startling. It’s like it’s not being self-controlled to not be controlled by someone else.
I imagine a lot of women do make arguments, particularly when they’re young. Even when people make an argument & really hit the nail on the head, what happens? What happens is people start grasping at straws & saying things like “Well, why MUST someone not do this?” or “Why does someone HAVE TO protect their kids?” or whatever uses the same wording the other person used to present their argument as wrong. Usually, it’s making their argument out to be something that undermines self-defense, oddly enough.
It suprises the hell out of me how many people don’t really get that there’s no way to say soemthing so that someone else can’t lie or twist your words!
Hi everyone,
Yesterday I was told the verdict of the independent panel that reviewed my complaint. They ruled that the doctor had committed a wrongdoing and issued him an official warning.
I’m happy that this is over and that it ended on a positive note. Like I said last time, I’m sure he’ll now be scared of doing anything like this again.
Thanks for all the help. I’m sure I’ll post here again. x
Coley X, that’s a really good result. He will certainly think twice before he does anything like this again. You are to be applauded for having the courage to make an official complaint, as most don’t and I have no doubt that you have saved other women from having to endure this type of abuse in the future. Well done!
I agree, but it frustrates me that a man who basically uses his position to take advantage is treated differently to others. I wonder if he’s had other official warnings.
I also, wonder whether this is a clever way of the hospital “dealing” with these matters, keeping them from the heavies, the Police or Medical Council.
Call me suspicious, but that’s what many organizations will attempt to do, the Church did it for decades, “dealing” with these matters in-house.
Not to take anything away from you, ColeyX, you’ve done an amazing thing for women, you stood up to your abuser.
Also, from an evidentiary point of view, it was his word against yours, (I offered the exam, she agreed, I was being thorough v your version (the truth)…I know who I and most people would believe…)
He could argue his only crime was not knowing routine breast exams are inappropriate and no longer recommended, so he was out-of-date and needs a refresher. (I wonder how many routine breast exams he offers to 60 year old women) Also, I imagine many UK doctors are still tacking routine breast exams onto consults for the Pill etc. So when there is medical “casualness” with the female body, it facilitates predators.
Thank you for keeping us posted and yes, it will remind him that it’s never safe to take advantage, the woman might just be another ColeyX. Good luck with your career.
Probably he will not stop. He will only get better at picking victims who will not complain so he will not get caught, I hope someone else on staff at that hospital knows about what he did and checks up. Apparently if a doctor knows about another doctor abusing a patient, they are obliged to report them. However in reality how often will this happen.
I applaud the young women who went thorough with the complaint. I do not think that the punishment was harsh enough. However maybe he will have this on record and hopefully next time he gets caught something will happen.
Congratulations to ColeyX!
Either one is possible. I think he should have gotten into the same trouble that anyone else would get into if they were to be groping a woman on a train or something, at least. It’s not right that when they do something the reaction to it is diluted. It’s like this: “Oh, you’ve proven yourself a threat & can’t be trusted. Well, here’s a response that impedes nothing & carry on.”
Maybe he’ll be driving & worrying about how he had a complaint filed against him & he’ll crash into a tree. Problem solved.
Nicely put Alex: “Maybe he’ll be driving & worrying about how he had a complaint filed against him & he’ll crash into a tree. Problem solved.” 🙂
ColeyX good for you! It sounds like it was a lot of hard work and I appreciate being able to share in feeling empowered and vindicated thanks to your efforts. Thank you for sharing your story and for letting us know the good news.
Glad you liked it! I DO hope for these things, but my luck is rarely that good.
I’m curious about something: When you discuss these things with people, what are their reactions like? I know it can vary widely from person to person, but do you generally catch a lot of bullshit in response? If so, what do you hear?
I’ve noticed frequently that when I’d discuss these things it was like I was saying something they always wanted to say, themselves. I guess calling something for what it is or simply bolstering autonomy (particularly with this type of subject) is something women tend to like. I’ve also noticed that the women that are closer to my generation (mid-20s to early 30s) are much less down-trodden in that way.
Oddly enough- so are some of the older women (70s to 80s)! Whenever a discussion came up that was about things of this nature (newspaper articles, plots of T.V. shows, mentioning one thing to explain another, etc…) they seemed to be more real about things. They didn’t think a layer of bullshit changed anything, basically.
A male gynecologist in Pennsylvania has been charged with indecent assault (http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/NW-Pa-gynecologist-charged-with-indecent-assault-5210506.php). This is exactly why it is wise for women to avoid male gynecologists.
Misty
Hey,
Just a couple of things I wanted to share. First is this revolting story of a podiatrist that made women unnecessarily strip and filmed them.
http://metro.co.uk/2012/12/20/foot-doctor-asked-more-than-100-patients-to-strip-3326052/
The shocking thing is, the police found 137 tapes that he had hidden but still didn’t prosecute.
The second is something that a good friend of mine told me about recently that actually relates to my case. She sent me this link. It’s a video of a model called Leilani Dowding having a live breast exam on TV.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/269977/lelani_dowding_breast_examination/
She was relatively famous here in the UK a while ago, mainly for being a Page 3 model in The Sun. Initially I didn’t want to watch it, but curiosity made me. It was done on a daytime show called This Morning a long time ago, to raise breast cancer awareness.
I praise her courage for being brave enough to do something like this on national television but the whole thing is super creepy. One thing I noticed was how the doctor kept his hand on her back almost the entire time. She looks uncomfortable. For all I know he’s a complete professional and didn’t have any inappropriate thoughts but isn’t it possible he was enjoying the opportunity to touch a topless model? Maybe joke with his friends about it after?
Leilani deserves loads of praise for subjecting herself to such a humiliating process to help raise awareness but it seems like the show just wanted a ratings boost. What do you guys think?
Story #1:
The foot doctor thing is appaling on a lot of levels. Sure, someone shouldn’t just go along with something just because the doctor says it or tries to do it- but that doesn’t excuse someone for making the attempt. Someone’s not off the hook if they strangle someone & say “Well, I’m innocent because they didn’t get out of it,” either. No big suprise that the cops didn’t go after him for that, but that’s me. Maybe they were paid off?
Interjecting arbitrary comportment into a medical situation so as to permit visual access to, or any kind of contact with, sexual areas is still an instance of iatrogenic attack. They are steering the situation to go this way, that’s exactly what “comportment” means. They’re not being coercive, deceptive, threatening, or anything subtle- they’re just being direct in their methods. [Which is somewhat of a subtle tactic on it’s own, isn’t it? This is a little bit like someone getting punched in the face in the hosptial, instead of being chemically sedated, as an attack to render someone unconscious.]
I guess it doesn’t strictly have to be using medical techniques to do something like that. If someone were to go to a doctor or hospital to ask them questions about allergies or something & the doctor told them to get naked so they could have this conversation, that is definitely acting inappropriately. They are steering the medical situation in a pervy way.
Story #2:
I think that model was just trying to score publicity points. Over here in the states, it’s suprisingly common for a celebrity to do a porno in a subtle way (they’ll make a sex tape that just so happens to get “lost” & then they’re super famous- if they were at all before).
If she were to do something to raise awareness about iatrogenic attack or things not working as advertised (could have sworn there was something about breast exams along those lines, too), then I’d give her credit. Why didn’t she whip them out & show women how to do this for herself? That’s, at least, a trustable situation (since a woman isn’t going to sabotage herself). She still could have been topless.
What about the potential for misdiagnosis, overtreatment, and complications? Any & all of these things can happen deliberately or accidently. Probably deliberately considering:
(1) That there’s repeat costs from additional procedures & follow-ups (possibly with incentive payments).
(2) There’s plenty of potential for ulterior motives for men as well as women & that might just include getting a thrill out of lying to someone or screwing up their life
(3) The simple fact that the medical curriculum that these people are trained in might very well be be garbage to begin with- “Blue Ribbon Bullshit,” as I call it.
Also, I don’t figure that this would be all that difficult to demonstrate on some kind of doll. She definitely seems reluctant & one would presume this isn’t something she’d want to do- maybe that’s supposed to ba an attention-grabber? Like the idea of: “If someone does something counter-intuitively, it must be a good thing.”