330 comments

1. soo true! i have ptsd because of being unable to have an exam nd being traumazed by gyn’s. they try to put a speculm in me, i am too small. my body just goes into spam because of it. iall i have is ptsd and no dignosis.
   i had an abusive abortionist, and self aborted in the hospitial!

   i have en robbed of the ablity to be intimate, or love anyone.

   how many more women have to suffer ptsd before the realization of what these exams cause!

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   • If your not having gyn problems why go to a gyn? Other nations do not have reg gyn exams unless you hey have symptoms. Its a for profit industry hear in the states.

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     • i don’t go any more, i am through toururing myself!

   • Hello,
     I love this blog! This is the first time in my life that I have come across a place where women are having an experience anything like mine. I was given a non-consensual breast and genital exam at 15, and then consented to a pelvic exam at 16 where I was roundly mistreated (made to leave the exam room nude from the waist down and doctor rubbed my inner thigh and said they knew I felt dirty). In result I have ptsd and have extreme difficulty with any sexual situation and a phobia of doctors. My relationships have been ruined and I have suffered very harshly. I wanted to suggest to you all, if you go on Yahoo Answers and visit the women’s health section, there are girls and women every day posting questions that are being pressured to have needless pelvic and breast exams, or are being taken to gynacological appointments by their parents with no warning of what is to happen. You can help alot by visiting this online answers site and answering their women’s health questions.

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     • It’s a good idea. I have a lot of time on my hands, but I’m a dude & it might weird them out to hear some things from me. Plenty of things seem to be better taught by women. That said, maybe I can give you some insights (don’t know what else to call it) & you can pass them along:

       Right off the bat (and I don’t know how many times I’ve said this): properties don’t change by designation, just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle it’s still murder. This applies to other things, as well. An interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. What happens is what occurs, after all. Oddly enough, a lot of people’s arguments tend to amount to reality taking a coffee break. This “cessation of existential dynamics” is a bullshit argument. This applies to iatrogenic attacks, as well as non-medical ones.

       As for whether or not someone gets gratifications from doing something, gratification is only an accentuating factor- a woman can run another woman over with her car without any gratification at all (including the sexual kind), it’s still an attack. In truth, someone might very well have warped tastes (apparently, there’s people that get aroused from lying, stealing, or setting things on fire), so it might very well be that they have a taste for compulsion & this can apply regardless of the genders involved.

       Another argument that is brought up is potential utility. Something doesn’t have to be useless to be a problem & even IF something is a means to an end, it might still have a problematic methodology. Look at something: If you went to a restaurant & the server were to jam a salad down your throat, this would be an attack. It doesn’t matter if there are potential health bolstering effects to the salad or if this server is the same gender as you.

       Never got why people seem to think that what someone does to someone else of the same gender is not an attack (it’s like they think that it’s the same thing as that person doing whatever it is to themselves). Nobody ever says “well, it’s two guys in that prison cell” or that what those Catholic priests did to those young boys was fine because they were both male as an argument.

       There’s the major point that generating repeat costs (and gaining financial incentives, which do exist in some places) are potential reasons for plenty of things in a medical setting & that includes the body of information that is taught. Experts are not generally quick to question the pedestal they are put on & the ego trip that they might get from this is something that there is a tendency to protect (like a junkie guarding their fix).

       There are numerous tactics that seem to be common. Deception, coercion, taking liberties while someone sleeps & rushing people around so there’s no time for thought or refusal all seem to be typical. There’s also simple comportment as a tactic (saying “do this” or “do that”- basically arranging the situation in whatever way, plan & simple). This “comportment” can be a bit of a subtle tactic BECAUSE it’s not really expected. It’s just so un-subtle that it becomes a bit of a surprise.

       Another thing is that, even though one doesn’t NEED to be able to articulate things in order to grasp that there’s a problem, it tends to be a problem for people to launch a counteraction when they can’t “make their case.” The thing is that there’s no way to say anything so that someone else can’t lie or twist your words on their own & at some point language has to connect to something- so there’s a bit of a problem with “making your case.” Some people even seem to have recruitment as their only form of recourse! If they can convert or convince someone to be on their side, that’s it.

       Tactics like talking in “fixed situations” (saying what they “WILL” be doing or what someone is “GOING” to be having) is a common thing in medical settings. Of course it’s nonsense- an action has to be engaged in order to occur, so acting as though there exists no capacity for reality to “unfurl” any other way is bullshit. They’re trying to capitalize on the knee-jerk presumption of honesty & accuracy that tends to be a common thing (like believing someone looking at their watch & telling you what time it says). It’s not someone deducing that this person is trustable, it’s just a somewhat reflexive thing. Someone “presenting” things in a particular way is a very basic & very common tactic.

       I could go on a bit further & if you want me to, I will- but let me cap it off by saying that bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness are not immature or otherwise defective traits, just like how it’s not stupid for someone to think compositionally (that a situation is what it consists of). Someone might not decommission their actions because you “hit the nail on the head,” but then that also comes up in more conventional self-defense situations. Don’t doubt yourself because someone somewhere doesn’t back you up.

     • Anonymous – Do you have a link to some of these discussions on You Tube? Thanks 🙂

2. I’ve read some research that showed opportunistic pap testing is more likely to lead to psych damage, medical avoidance etc. Most women know someone (or it happened to them) who was ambushed or coerced in the consult, yet Papscreen and others still encourage doctors to screen opportunistically. (and reward them for doing so, even more for capturing someone unscreened or under-screened) Shockingly, NO does not mean NO in women’s cancer screening.
   Even women who call themselves feminists publicly state that women should be offered a pap test “on the spot”….endorsing and encouraging the violation of women’s rights and bodies.

   If women took action, these doctors wouldn’t have a leg to stand on, the law and ethical standards says that informed consent is required for all cancer screening, and pap testing is not a clinical requirement for anything, screening is always elective…but sadly, many women just accept pap testing is “required” or feel angry or upset about the situation or go on to avoid doctors.

   This is probably because so often women who complain are ridiculed, the system has done a great job, making so many women believe this test is a MUST and that those who “avoid” it need to be pushed into it.
   It shows how dangerous women’s cancer screening actually is, we can be manipulated to the point where all of this is not only okay, but for our own good.
   I think some women also, take the view, I have them, so should you…share around the pain and indignity.
   I sometimes wonder how many women have been seriously injured by these program, the numbers must be huge. It’s not only physical, but emotional/psych damage, that may mean avoiding doctors, ending a relationship, choosing not to have children or any situation that might expose them to risk. Women have been forced into these programs or forced to live around them….that’s not cancer screening. Even those who screen regularly, having been convinced it’s essential for their health, have been misled, most haven’t a clue when it comes to the evidence, they haven’t made an informed decision TO screen.
   How did women’s cancer screening move so far away from ethical and legal screening…to what I call…medical abuse?

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   • i agree they brain wash women by saying you are risking your health by not having these sceenings. I am one who had suffered bcause of these sceens. I will not put my slf through the trauma again. I have spent yrs trying to find a dr who would diagnose me. I all i ended up wit wa trauma. I have been denied help, because i can’t have an exam! i feel they violate women!
     a speculm is abusive i feel!

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   • Unwanted pap smears forced on woman is rape. There needs to be a law to protect woman who choose not to have paps.

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     • i agree pap smears are rape. i am sorry my post are negitiv, but i have suffered for yrs, with no help. i hope others don’t suffer as i have. I am munable to have a pap so i jave denied help, charged 100’s of dallars and no diagnosis.

     • Exactly. I hate that the line is always that women “felt” violated or “felt” raped. Vaginal penetration without meaningful consent in the absence of dire and immediate medical necessity is rape. End of story. Doesn’t matter which particular authority figure (husband, doctor, prison guard) is perpetrating the act. It’s rape.

     • Christine: I agree with you, but would like to make one point that you may or may not know about: There was a guy in New York that actually had a rectal exam forced on him when he walked into the hospital to get stitches on his head! You can type in just that & get some information on it, but it’s a fairly common story to hear with crashes & falls- it seems anytime someone goes to the E.R. for trauma reasons. They said it was to detect if he had a spinal injury (which it doesn’t even seem to be viable for, but it is iatrogenic rape if imposed- regardless of utility).

       Don’t know if this is always what happens, but it’s something they seem to ambush people with when they log-roll someone off the stretcher. I’d imagine saying you refuse all further treatment & it’s iatrogenic rape to continue. You could substitute the word “teatment” with “assistance” & the word “rape” with “assualt.” The reasoning being that “assistance” comes off like they’re helping out (which says that they distinctly aren’t if they go any further) & “assualt” is harder to play word games with what constitutes rape. Just a potential thing that might make it sound like they’d lose a court case.

       Also, the arrogance & hostility of these people is incredible. Look up “Buckeye Surgeon: Sir, I need to place a finger in your anus.”

3. Well, of course it can- especially if imposed. It would definitely be understood if someone broke into someone else’s house & aggressively “played doctor” on them & the same kind of thing done less ostentatiously isn’t less of an affront.

   Even if this isn’t an imposed situation & there’s full disclosure about all the risks, inaccuracies, and alternatives- it’s still not something that can be a problem for that person- it’s just not an attack at that point. It goes “against the grain” & considering that these are not normal dynamics for an interaction involving someone that you are not in some way “like that” with- whether casually or seriously. So it can still be an issue, just not with a combative source.

   Something doesn’t HAVE to be useless to be a problem, but I think that point is sometimes overlooked. The components of a methodology don’t cease to exist in their own right, and there can always be a problematic methodology with something. Some people even act like it’s a wrongdoing to not keep something that might be useful at some point in the future- no matter what it is.

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   • To some degree, it is routine to ambush patients when they are the most vulnerable with these exams. I know that if a woman is found unconscious on the street, she is automatically given a full pelvic examination. Doctors hide behind the reason that, there is a possibility that she was assaulted while lying in the street and they need to prepare STD prevention drugs. However, I still think this is a cop-out, because a simple glance at the thighs for bruises, lookover for torn clothing, etc. would provide preliminary information regarding if she was assaulted so that they could get the drugs ready and when she awakens, they can ask her if she would agree to an exam to confirm if she was assaulted based upon the suspicions. If she disagrees, then they can give her the next steps for her health. Also, if a woman is admitted while consciously admitting that she was r_ped or having abdominal pain, she is forced into a pelvic exam or sedated and then forced while asleep.

     This is one of my biggest fears.

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4. Thank you for sharing a study that provides additional evidence in relation to what so many commenters have said on this site.

   The lack of research on the adverse impacts of pap testing is shocking and increases danger for women. There are significant negative outcomes linked to PTSD, including increased risk of suicide, health problems, marital problems, unemployment, secondary mental health and substance use problems and challenges in managing the demands of daily life (I found research articles that provide evidence about each of these impacts). It is also known that medical procedures and sexual molestation/assaults are associated with PTSD – a study found that 20-51% of patients with musculoskeletal injuries develop PTSD. I wonder what the rate might look like for those who go through pap testing, experience a false positive, and then go through additional physical trauma and mental anguish associated with recommended follow-ups?

   If it was known that a medication was having such impacts it is very likely the medication would be withdrawn from use, or that there would be clear and strongly stated warning about the risks included in all advertising and on labels for the medication. It strikes me as criminal negligence that there doesn’t appear to be any systematic research examining the adverse impacts of pap testing and other gynecological procedures.

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   • “a study found that 20-51% of patients with musculoskeletal injuries develop PTSD”

     That’s interesting, I wonder why that is. I have musculoskeletal issues as a result of gynecological issues and I’d definitely say I have emotional trauma, but that’s more from being in pain than the medical procedures I’ve had in an effort to help.

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5. I am a bit relieved to see this issue is bigger than I thought. I hope that the extent of the population damage caused by the medical system will have at least one positive side: more people will complain, more people will fight, and perhaps win in the end.

   Personally, while I don’t think I have PTSD, I can say that my life was damaged by the Australian medical system ind its overzealous obsession with screening. I was pressured into pap smears since very young age by nearly every doctor I saw. Luckily I was able to do some research and knew that a virgin can only be harmed by pap tests, but I did not want to tell every doctor about my private life, especially given that I was seeing them for completely unrelated reasons! It felt plain wrong to be ambushed, cornered and compelled to tell an absolute stranger the most private details of my personal life only to be able to save myself from a harmful, dated and unnecessary test!!

   After years of such pressure and negative encounters with doctors, I started avoiding going to doctors even when I was really sick. I also can’t imagine myself having children because that would mean surrendering my body to the system, and losing all my privacy and all the control over what is going to happen to me. If they did not listed to me when I was saying NO to a useless pap test and could walk away, they are not going to listen to me when I am pregnant and they know I don’t have a way out. My friends who had babies told me that the medical staff can do absolutely anything to a woman in labour and then simply cover themselves with the “we were acting in the interests of the baby” mantra. A woman is a half of a human in the eyes of the medical system simply because she is a woman. But she becomes only a womb when she is pregnant. No rights, no control, no say.

   So, thanks to our “best in the world” Australian medical system, I can’t see a doctor even when I seriously need it, and I will not have children.

   I wish my tax money were spent on planting trees instead. Cleaner air and better environment would be more beneficial for people’s health than the medical system we currently have in this country.

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   • These words could have been mine! I do have past issues, such as child abuse and while I have recovered well enough with therapy to function in the society and build relationships, I do believe I could have been damaged by one particular gyn visit. I was in my early 20’s, was bleeding quite heavily at one stage during my period and decided to visit the local ER. Mistake. This female gyn was incredibly rude and during pelvic exam, she managed to break the plastic speculum. I was already scared and felt humiliated so this did not do anything to increase my comfort.. which was non-existent anyway. This gyn exam definitely caused some degree of PTSD and I still remember it very well.

     Since then I have had several “good” gyn experiences, because I took either sedation or had a drink before going. I only went when I felt it was absolutely necessary. Paps were recommended every year, but I had them every three years. Lucky me that the paps were always clear. Memories of these gyn visits are pretty much clouded.
     I also had to undergo quite a traumatic D&C due to missed abortion 15 years ago. I knew I would definitely not be able to have kids, physically maybe yes, but mentally not. So I had hysterectomy in September 2014. Several gyn visits and check-up were needed before the operation, but I declined pelvic exams each time. Thank God my doctor was understanding and agreed to do pap and endometrial biopsy while I was under general anesthesia, prior to the actual operation date.
     Post-op check-up gave me sleepless nights, so I e-mailed the doctor, asking if pelvic exam is absolutely necessary. He replied and said it is part of the post-op exam, but if it can’t be done, then we’ll have to skip it. I was so relieved about this. I probably should have had it done, but I couldn’t. Just couldn’t. I still have the ovaries and I may still have to see the gyn one day, but not any time soon.
     It’s such a shame I had to go this far, but hysterectomy was actually medically necessary as I also had fibroids, that caused heavy bleeding and on top of everything; a prolapse!
     I think all of us ladies will have to challenge the medical providers, who feel like pelvic exam and pap are needed, when they clearly are not- if I have an eye infection, I really and truly hope no one will come and offer me a pelvic exam.
     In the other hand, if pelvic exam is required, and if you also consent to undergoing such an exam then that’s a different story. I have had luck along the way after recovering from hysterectomy that I have not had any pelvic issues, but if I did, I’d probably have to consider pelvic exam if it was recommended. But only if I really had no other choice.

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6. Before I found this website I was doing research. I found few articles about PTSD and the gynocological exams. All of them advised women to try such strategies as taking a sedative before, bringing in a friend, bringing their own blankets and pillow, “talking” to medical staff about it but none suggested that the risk of further psychological trauma was just not worth it. Alternative tests to paps were not suggested. Survivors of childhood abuse and rape are ignored or have their concerns dismissed.

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   • Sedative, blanket? That’s just crazy. I don’t care if I’m drunk on my ass, I do not want anyone looking or sticking something in my body. It is completely invasive! I have three children. During pregnancy, I agreed to exams. I’m 55 now–I still have nightmares about pelvic exams.

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     • i was assaulted on the table by a male dr that was nit mine. i was clamped open and my dr could not remove the mirena. i asked him to help me off the table he refused and left the room, he came back with todd m beste, he grabbed the hook and started jabbing i started screaming he said well now maybe thats a reason to keep it.

   • All this “coping strategies”- yet no concept of not doing this situation? For fuck’s sake- if they were telling guys all kinds of strategies to cope & compensate with prison rape, instead of telling them to fight/escape/avoid capture, wouldn’t people detect a problem with that? These fucking procedures don’t even work as advertised, the shit someone might get all bent-out-of-shape worrying about is rare AND something they’d be more likely to get when they’re too old to have children- which ability might get fucked up by these various procedures & resultant surgeries.

     Sorry to fly off the handle a little bit, but I don’t think these people are being very helpful. A miscarriage, a fucked-up marriage, and iatrogenic debt that will never be paid off & will prevent other things in life just don’t sound like benefits to me. I guess I’m just insensitive to the medical personnel that want to accomplish these actions as a goal. Maybe I’m just too stupid to think that someone is helpful & never harmful if they’re wearing white? I don’t think someone wearing blue is always telling the truth, either.

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7. WOW check this out http://www.familycircle.com/teen/advice/rosalind/next-steps-after-sex/ I cannot believe what this writer is saying! Oh yes, punish your daughter for wanting to be intimate with a boy by forcing her to let some stranger shove various tools and fingers into HER body all just to prove a point….that’s not going to traumatize her at all- NOT. It’s like she expects this mother to go up to her daughter and say “You are precious to me. Therefore I am going to ignore your boundaries and bodily autonomy and force you into a humiliating and painful and completely unnecessary exam so that you will know the consequences of having sex.” If that’s not bad parenting advice I don’t know what is…..Is this woman f*cking CRAZY?? This is EXACTLY the type of thing that leaves our young girls feeling powerless and violated and traumatized. It says “You do not have a choice about what happens to your body. Get over it and get used to it.” It conveys the idea that someone else can control her body. If a doctor can do it and everyone around her thinks it’s no big deal then it’s not so much of a stretch to let a man do the same thing. Thus sowing the seeds of low self esteem and in effect making her MORE likely to engage in sex and unsafe sexual behavior if a man demands it of her because she has been taught that she is not able to make her own decisions about her body -sigh- and people wonder why American society is so f*cked up.

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   • I hate when people in mags and others tell moms to “take there daughters to a gyn so they can talk about birth control . and stds and they can’t trust there daughters. Don’t ask just force them to go. It ticks me off. I have never heard of moms forcing there teen sons to have std cheeks.

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     • You know gets me riled up (besides the situation itself)? That if the FATHER were to pull any of this shit, people would see it for what it is. All of a damn sudden they understand things that they don’t see when women are involved? I guess it’s the lying as an additional aspect. It’s like a set-up, but pyschologically. I really don’t get how there being or not being any lust on the part of the one doing the action changes a situation from an attack to something non-antagonistic. That’s like saying that if a murderer didn’t have any homicidal rage when killing someone, it’s not someone getting killed!

     • Hmm, I completely understand telling sexually active people to discuss contraception and STI testing with a health care provider, I just don’t get why it has to be a gyn and there has to be an exam and it has to be this big deal *shrugs*. You can go to your family doctor and pee in a cup, it isn’t rocket science.

       As someone who suffers from terrible gynecological problems, this whole “using gynecologists as primary care providers” isn’t even a little bit cute. Nothing is more frustrating than being told in November, “Oh, you’re suffering and dealing with awful pain and can’t function? Yeah, we’ll get you in with a specialist, but not until February because all the middle age cis White ladies have to get their annual pap because it ~*~makes them feel better~*~, so just take ibuprofen until then.” Seriously??

     • i can relate to being pushed off and denied help. so much for the hippiocratic oath for drs, to help patients. they would rather make $$$ off a pap than actually help the patient’s real issue. i am done with gyn’s not traumaizing my self anymore. I pstd thanks to theitr so called helpful exam

       diane

   • It’s bizarre. The American gynaelogical industry’s obsession with these pointless exams is completely bewildering to me, but the motivations are not hard to work out – control and lots of money. But what is totally baffling to me and makes no sense at all is mothers’ obsessions with pushing them on their daughters once they reach a certain age – and they o so in almost fanatical fashion, pushed by the media to make them believe it is somehow a rite of passage for every girl entering womanhood. Taking an adolesvent girl to a male or female gynaecologist is abuse in my opinion – and no doubt the media is acting in the interests of big pharma to promote this message. I don’t believe annual, bi annual, three year or five year paps or exams are needed to keep women alive. Asymptomatic women have survived centuries without gynaecologists – why are they suddenly needed? It is also as if morality is mixed in with this message because it seems, part of this requirement is indeed, punishing girls for having sex. I hate to say it but it makes me see it as the Western equivalent of female genital mutilation under the guise of “health”. Find it interesting that they don’t want their young sons examined ritually – are they not concerned about testicular (which has a relatively similar incidence rate to cervical cancer), penile and throat cancers in boys then?!

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     • To be honest, I think it’s got a lot more to do with infliction than control. Think about it: power can go with momentum, as well as against- it can even be aggressively neutral.

       As for the mothers, I think if the man were to do the same thing it would be seen as abuse. If it’s her FATHER, then the “big mean MAN” is being an enemy through subtle means (and that actually would be true if it happened). But her mother has the same type of anatomy as her, so whatever she does to her daughter or any other female is the same as doing it to herself.

       Personally, I think a lot of those have an urge to get brownie points from the doctor & might feel bad about themselves if they don’t get them- like a pay-off or a drug. There also seems to be the concept of them thinking that this is just happenstance, but an action has to be engaged in order to occur. Doesn’t make much sense, but someone can still act on things like that.

8. After such gynocological procedures as a LEEP or “birth rape” some women react the with the same stress as a woman who has been raped or sexually assaulted. Some women lose their sense of modesty as “why bother” experience a numbness and disassociation with their body.

   I always wonder when reading papers published about pap “compliance” why the reasons for not havinga pap are hardly truthful. The excuse of “not having time, transportation or childcare” is put as the most common. If the population says that these types of exams are culturally unacceptable, this is dismissed and efforts are made to counter. Surving childhood abuse or rape is never mentioned when we know what the statistics for rape and abuse are.

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9. Come to think of it, the first time I experienced sexual abuse I was 9 and it as a doctor in a behavioral health care facility. I didn’t know what was going on or that he did anything wrong at the time. He had nothing to keep me covered but instead had me remove my clothing and used white gloves. Those white gloves lingered in my trash can, I didn’t know why but every time I went near it I felt nauseous to the point of tasting bile. I tried to throw away my trash, but since it was just the gloves the adults that took care of us scolded me and put me in ‘quiet time’ and wouldn’t let me because my trash wasn’t full.

   I resorted to tearing up things in my room till the trash was full and then threw them out. After pregnancy the memory of what actually happened came back in full focus, I’ve also had the horrible invasive exams since (Only by women) and realized he didn’t even try to pretend to do a real examination on me, and I was 9 what the heck did he need to do that kind of examination anyway?

   I still get sick to my stomach whenever I see white latex gloves. Now that I see blue ones in the exam rooms, I ask specifically if they can use those instead, no matter what the examination is on. Even when I used to work doing house cleaning I decided to bringing my own set of gloves that weren’t white, sometimes I’d startle if a fellow employee even approached me with them. Sounds crazy, or maybe stupid, but it’s something I can’t seem to get past.

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10. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16338517 Worth a read!
    Digital rectal exam to detect spinal cord injuries: CONCLUSION: The DRE is insensitive to spinal cord injury and has a poor positive predictive value. The high specificity must be balanced against the large number of false-positive results.
    http://commons.pacificu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1139&context=pa
    This is also worth the read!

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    • If a patient is conscious and not intoxicated why not just ask them aboit pain or paralysis?Doctors are trained using cadavers so maybe they just like to treat us all like we are dead and HAVE NO FEELINGS.

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      • I’ve bee nthinking that, too. They think that everyone else is just a carcass with a heartbeat. Maybe they’re counteractive to other people’s agency?

11. My husband and I experienced a horrible incident years ago with an intimate exam, although I don’t think it rose to the level of PTSD for us. At the young age of 25, I was diagnosed with gall bladder disease and needed surgery to remove the offending organ. Until that time, I had always used a female doctor for modesty reasons, but needing surgery and with only male surgeons available, I went to see Dr. Philip Ryan (I will use a pseudonym). On the day before the operation, I was scheduled for the usual pre-op exam – checkup of heart and lungs. My husband accompanied me to the clinic and sat in the waiting room during the pre-op. From his vantage point he could see that a nurse was not in the exam room while the doctor examined me. Dr. Ryan did a cursory exam of my heart and lungs, then announced that he would need to do a pelvic exam!! Being young, naive and intimidated, I only mildly protested about such a necessity, but Dr. Ryan insisted that while we are in there (my body) we should check things out. He proceeded to put me in the stirrups. Afterwards I discussed the exam with my husband, including the unnecessary, unchaperoned intimate exam. I could tell that my husband was hurt, confused, even angry, but I discouraged any confrontation with the doctor, for on the next day I would be under anesthesia on the operating table under his control. We felt trapped and helpless. Our awe of doctors and our inexperience created a situation which we didn’t deal with properly. A male doctor performing an unnecessary pelvic exam without a chaperone would be in considerable trouble today. My husband is a college instructor and spent much of his life doing research. I too have college degrees and we collaborated on a project to warn women about male doctors doing pelvic exams. The result of this joint effort is an article, somewhat scholarly and very thorough, entitled “Gentlemen Don’t Look Up Ladies’ Skirts.” It raises troubling thoughts about what goes on in the mind of a male doctor at such an emotional moment. My husband and I are pleased that FORWOMEN’SEYESONLY has listed it as one of the “top links.” You will find these top links near the top of this page. Our website is http://www.modestyxxx.com.

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    • Hi Don,
      I know this was the practice in the States, hopefully, it no longer happens. An American woman posted on Dr Sherman’s site that she was forced to have a breast and pelvic exam before she had surgery on her foot. How on earth could that be justified?
      Another woman, a female doctor, refused these pre-surgery exams and asked for the hospital administrator, she intended to lodge a complaint…the doctor backed off, of course, she then went into surgery and I imagine these exams were then carried out while she was sedated. I’ve always felt apart from some doctors possibly enjoying the unnecessary intimate access, there may also, get a rush when a woman objects and is overwhelmed by the system or a GA, a great demonstration of their power over women, they win again, over and over again.
      It’s horrifying that these exams could ever have been considered part of a pre-surgery check, but it, once again, demonstrates the acceptability within the profession to help themselves to the female body, to do unnecessary exams and tests that do nothing more than risk our health.
      I wonder whether men were subjected to rectal and testicular exams before they had surgery on their feet….I doubt it.

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    • A pelvic exam had nothing to do with your galblater.

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12. Simple comportment is a fairly common tactic. They just say “Do this” & that’s it. Just promting someone or simply “putting forth” in some other way. A major problem is that a lot of people don’t know what to phrase that as, so it’s hard for them to get “locked-on” mentally.

    The same thing occurs when there is an iatrogenic attack, but they don’t know the term “iatrogenic attack.” Someone doesn’t HAVE to be able to articulate something to know that there’s a problem with it, but there’s (at least in America) a heavy tendancy for people to want to “make their case.”

    It can be a problem for people if they’re thinking that they won’t get much public support, too. Someone had mentioned “cultural blindspots,” where people act as though what happens is not what occurs. This seems to happen most frequently with medical personnel, but also law enforcement (not just cops, but the whole thing). I’ve also noticed that “experts” tend to get the benefit of the doubt very frequently & there’s some kind of unofficial belief that there has to be a groundwork of accuracy for them to say something. This is not the case & there’s plenty of potential for conflicts of interest (ex: financial incentives for medical types & bumping up their tally sheets for law enforcement) or simple antagonism.

    I’d think the people that are blindly trusted or approved of because of their title would be the ones most likely to disregard quality control & there’s always the potential that they got that job specifically to have that image as camouflage.

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13. I have experienced severe mistreatment in the medical setting because I didn’t want men looking at my ‘reproductive parts’ which everyone wants to forget are also my ‘private parts’. I have my reasons for not wanting it, mainly in relation to past traumas. I don’t see why a woman should ever have to explain (nurses made me feel like this) why they don’t want to see this “Great Doctor” who, for women like myself, can only see as a man in a white coat with medical equipment-nothing special.

    All women are taught to guard themselves against men who would be sex predators, often times I think women are taught in a misleading way from the truth. According to the RAINN site every two minutes (Correct me if I am wrong) a woman is getting sexually assaulted, more likely than not these attacks come from someone close to home. The truth is it’s almost never some strange guy hiding in a bush or something! The attackers are someone trusted by family and friends, and can often times be in a position of great respect and importance. I was told since I began developing that I can get hurt just for being a female by a man that doesn’t understand what “No” means. Why should I let a person in a position of respect and authority have an all access pass to my private parts because he has a white coat, sterile gloves, and a medical board ready to defend him? The way I’ve heard it from receptionists and nurses is if they let every woman chose the gender of their doctor and made an exception for every survivor of sexual assault they’d have a “Serious problem” on their hands. Yes, you heard it right! Half of the ob/gyn at this hospital were men, which provokes the question: Are you telling me you have to force women to be seen by your male ob/gyn because they’d not have work otherwise? Am I the only one that feels that this supremely unfair and unjust? Not my fault they chose that line of work!

    I’ve also read articles where men are being discouraged from this position in med school. They refer to it as ‘sexism’, but how is it sexist if a female patient says “No, I don’t see men for those exams, and I won’t see your student because he’s a male.” When the exam requires her to bare it all for the male student? How are they getting their training to deny a part of themselves that is not only genetic but culturally influenced and encouraged? Yes, I went there! Not only do we have scientific evidence that often gets men off the hook when accused of rape because they genetically can’t help themselves, but culture is a horrid backer of this. Most societies see this as some genetic weakness to the point you’d think they had a mental condition but it also encourages it by not expecting them to practice or exercise any self control. “Men look at porn they need to get it out somewhere!”, “Well men are gonna look at other women even if married!”, and “That’s just how men are!” Meanwhile women are chastised about anything dealing with their own sexual desires. Men are never told they have to keep it in check, they have to suppress it, nor are they held accountable for their lack of self control and labeled sluts, whores as a result. I honestly believe men are different sexually, but society also guilds them to be worse than they probably would be if they were held responsible for mishaps like women are.

    I’ve read articles about non-consensual pelvic exams on women under anesthesia, they’re not very liberal on giving us the information on if it’s male or females primarily doing this. (If anyone has that info please share!) I have to wonder if the reason men have managed to survive med school to get into the specialization in the first place is by using underhanded means to finish their training. If so, why let them pursue it if the people they so desperately want to care for don’t want their care? Not to mention bizarre things I’ve read about men aspiring to become lactation specialists too! It’s incredibly rare unlike gynecology, but how are so many people in society not thinking or questioning the motives of these men in medicine? Why do women so readily believe these men are just so compassionate and supportive of women’s health? Have you seen most men? Most men I’ve seen in my life don’t even get excited and baby crazy over their own woman having a baby. Most men I’ve seen figure women are just crazy and don’t want to nor do they care to understand their needs as women. So why are these men so special that they just feel so much empathy toward the female gender? I’m sure if some of the women I knew were aware of this ‘special training’ they’d want to send their husband or ex lover in for a few courses!

    I gave birth to a little girl, and fought tooth and nail to get a female team to do it. Do I really need to not only teach her to watch herself around boys at parties but watch the men in the doctor’s office too? Do I have to teach her how to slap down pap coercion? If so how old should she be before I have to sit down and have this special talk with her that shouldn’t even have to be necessary? It’s not just male gynecologists to worry about it is also just any guy in medicine from my experience. Back years ago when I kept myself thin and in great shape it didn’t matter if it was a walk-in clinic or even an urgent care, it didn’t matter what I went in for! If the doctor was male they were gonna harass me about physical exams on my privates. I never argued logical facts about cervical cancer or anything because I shouldn’t have to! The fact that I don’t want to do it should be enough! The routine usually came in threes or fours-YES- I’d have to turn them down that many times. First asking them to focus on my reason for the visit, second typically I say I’ll get it done with my PCP, the third I then agree with their ‘concern’ and say if they are so concerned get a woman in here to do it, and if they don’t stop then the fourth shoot down is usually being rude and saying “You’re not touching me!” I have never caved to this pushing and pressuring, but as a result I usually never got the care I needed and had to return for a second visit. If I do get treated it’s bad because they are rough, and it’s almost out right violent how they examine whatever area of my body I came to have treated (eg. jerking my sprained ankle around violently, or squeezing excessively hard on my throat to check my lymph nodes). It’s clear they’re p*ssed at me, and it makes for a scary experience every time I had to see a male doctor. Here’s some food for thought, any women ever experience this?

    Since I have put on 100lbs and have no desire to be pretty or be attractive looking in the slightest, these male doctors don’t give a flaming crap about the health of my lady parts. People can argue that doctors feel more comfortable examining someone “Healthy” looking but what’s the point of a doctor if everyone is already healthy? If a patient doesn’t look healthy shouldn’t that be motivation for concern toward the patient? It’s creepy, makes me paranoid, and I think we should just cut out the grey area and start making any form of feminine health procedures off limits to male doctors. I bet the number of unnecessary exams would plummet if that happened… Oh, but what am I thinking!? That would be unfair sexism in the medical work place!

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    • I can relate with you on this. When a nurse got affended I had not been having paps and was at a walk in for panic attack she got a attitude the rest of the visit and snatched my arm to check my blood pressure, talked down to me and banged her hand on the desk where she had to right that I did not have a pap smear date for her to record in her files.

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      • She’s antagonizing you when you walk in for a PANIC ATTACK? I’d imagine slapping the shit out of that dumb bitch would have be completely deniable, although it’s a bit of a coin flip whether or not it’ll get treated that way. I’d say her banging on the desk could have been something that would have resulted in a reflexive self-defense response, as that it not only an expression of anger it’s also potentially her mimicking what she is planning to do. I know cops would probably get spooked & react to something to that.

    • I remember hearing about the unconscious practicing of exams in Australia or in Canada (it definitely was going on in both & I think it’s still going on in Australia). I forget which one it was, but it was a guy that actually said he wasn’t doing it & called attention to the whole thing. It seems his sister was similarly employed & actually did this to people, but she acted like she just realized her own actions. I guess acting suprised as a defense tactic?

      Anyway, I don’t think you should wait too long to have a discussion about self-protection, including from iatrogenic attack. There was a case in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania where they ambushed a bunch of 11-year-old girls with pelvic exams in school. I believe the exact number was 59 & it seems that it didn’t go to a penetrative level with all of them, but then it doesn’t really have to in order to be a problem. There was complete administrative support, too. Teachers, school board, their branch of National Education, district & state cops- all fine with it.

      When one of my cousins fell in a store & got a cut that she went to get stitches for, they made her take off all her clothes- purportedly to see if she had any marks from being hit at home. I frequently wonder if they’d have tried to take her away if she said her mother or father did the same thing they were doing?

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      • It does put my mind at ease to know a man did speak up about it. I still find male ob/gyn creepy though! I don’t think anything can change that. Kind of makes me angry that women like my mother, even with the experience she’s had in the past still supports them and don’t find them to be self serving in any way. She was 16 and needed her appendix removed, the man at the hospital demanded he do a pelvic and pap exam on her before the procedure to make sure it wasn’t an inflamed ovary. She was a virgin at the time and the nurse held her down because she said it hurt and sat up to make him stop. They could have severely injured my mother doing what they were doing, yet she still supports them being in the business, however, she never had another pap and pelvic exam again. She’s scared of those exams now. The more women that support them the more they will continue to stay in business, the more women will still be forced to see them or get no care.

        I heard about the student thing, that was horrible. Makes me tempted to not let my daughter participate in sports in school when she’s old enough, I can find some other out of school lessons to try to get her for physical education. It’s hard enough for women to get a conviction on sexual assault, sometimes I think it may be slightly easier for children because there’s no way they could have ‘provoked’ the attacker, but even then the children have to deal with accusations of making up stories and such. The medical field and it’s doctors is policed by the medical board, and it makes it seem impossible to keep them from misusing their positions, much like policemen. I know a woman can hurt someone no different than a male gynecologist but most sexual assault cases deal with male attackers, and the fact that the people don’t police these people and they are looked after and judged by their own will never make me feel safe about letting males practice gynecology.

        It’s awful what happened to your cousin! I posted a story earlier here stating how a behavioral health care establishment treated me. People I tried to tell after it happened to me said they were probably just checking for signs of sexual abuse at home. Now that I’ve had an actual exam of that nature I look back on that and know it wasn’t an exam the man was just sick and twisted. I really feel for your cousin, unfortunately it feels that until the law stops seeing females as sex objects and baby containers we will always find females being mistreated for the stupidest justifications. Because of this I wonder if I’ll be more protective of our little girl than her father could ever be! Good fathers are expected to be naturally protective of mother and child but I just can’t look at the world how I used to long ago, and I am much more jaded by it than him. My perspective on the medical field has also changed since pregnancy, bad enough we’re taught to carry pepper spray, car keys can be a gouging weapon, don’t drink anything we didn’t get for ourselves and other such things I learned to protect my virtue as a little lady, do we have to take all this to the doctor’s office too?

      • So they actually physically forced this on your mother? Hopefully someone breaks into their house & does the same thing on them- not like it’s impossible for an aggressive nutcase to have a medical fetish (obviously, given what happened).

        If she still supports them, it sounds like a bit of a denial thing- although there can’t really be “denial” without awareness of some form.

        I don’t remember the story about what happened at that behavioral health care place, but it does ring a bell. Either way, them “just” checking for signs of abuse at home is not some kind of theoretical situation. The components of a methodology don’t cease to exist in their own right, so them doing something as a means to an end doesn’t actually dissipate these actions.

        So the situation goes that either she doesn’t have a history of these things getting imposed on her until they get their hands on her or she does have a history of these things being imposed on her & now it’s added to.

    • “they’re not very liberal on giving us the information on if it’s male or females primarily doing this.”

      It’s all 3rd and 4th year medical students at institutions still practicing this, regardless of gender. It doesn’t really make any logical sense that they’re saying, “Okay, all male medical students, come do this!” And iirc, the same issue is happening with patients of all genders with catherization practicing.

      “Not to mention bizarre things I’ve read about men aspiring to become lactation specialists too! It’s incredibly rare unlike gynecology, but how are so many people in society not thinking or questioning the motives of these men in medicine?”

      Because some people prefer a male gynecologist/lactation specialist/massage therapist/pelvic physical therapist/etc. I volunteer as an advocate at the local rape crisis center. We have plenty of male crisis counselors and advocates, because that’s what some survivors want. To assume that every person with a vagina wants a woman for any of the above services just on principle is to remove autonomy from people with vaginas.

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      • “I volunteer as an advocate at the local rape crisis center. We have plenty of male crisis counselors and advocates, because that’s what some survivors want. To assume that every person with a vagina wants a woman for any of the above services just on principle is to remove autonomy from people with vaginas.”

        Thanks for exercising your experience in all the compassion you learned while volunteering! It’s good to know that because I don’t prefer male ob/gyn because of past trauma as I stated in the beginning of that post, I should have them forced on me because of the few women that prefer them! You read that part of the post right? It’s in the same post you quoted.

        I’m with Don Schmidt on this one, gentleman shouldn’t look up ladies’ skirts. If the reason women near where I live don’t get a choice in gender is a result of the ‘sexist discrimination in the work place’ argument, then who’s autonomy is really being taken? Certainly not yours!

        We’re not all so liberated to feel comfortable in deliberately seeking out male doctors to look up our skirts! The things I have survived have left me with a serious distrust toward men feeling entitled to see or touch my privates, and the end of male gynecology as an acceptable norm and standard will only let me sleep easier at night. Let them get their own private practices away from the rotations at hospitals where women aren’t given the choice. If you’re confident they’re so great they shouldn’t have a problem prospering, right? Or do you feel it is appropriate to force women to be seen by them? I hope you don’t tell the victims you advocate this, it could prove to be counter productive.

      • I don’t think anyone here except you is arguing that people should have to see providers of a gender the are not comfortable with. I certainly never said anything like that. I don’t believe people with vaginas should all have to see women gyns or male gyns, but should see who they feel comfortable with. My mother survived being abused by men, I survived being abused by a woman, both of us have severe gynecological problems and we are both more comfortable with male gyns. But if I’m gathering things correctly, you’re fine with forcing us both to see women gyns even though we aren’t comfortable with that.

        “I’m with Don Schmidt on this one, gentleman shouldn’t look up ladies’ skirts.”

        This, again, removes autonomy from popped with vaginas. What would you say to a trans man? Should he only be able to have men looking at his vagina because he’s a man too so their genders are the same? Or should he only be allowed to see providers who have vaginas themselves so their sexes are the same? Why not let him see whoever he’s comfortable with and don’t yell at him that male gyns are just raping him simply because they’re cis men?

      • *people with vaginas

    • Yes!

      I had some similar experiences! For most of my younger years, I was mildly overweight or “very curvy” but not to the point of being unattractive. I was constantly harassed about pelvic exams and I wasn’t even s-xually active. They would then express disbelief about “someone like (me)” not being s-xually active. I have been denied treatment for injuries and infections due to refusing pelvic exams.

      After grad school, I had put on about 40 additional pounds. Like you, doctors were not even interested in my private parts altogether. They would quickly treat my area of concern and quickly get me out of there. This went on for about three years.

      At that point, I decided that I needed to get healthy and lost 80 pounds. I am still maintaining the lower weight now and working out. Nevertheless, I have to undergo grueling requests and demands that I get pelvic exams and I have had nurses inform doctors that I’m going to have them, rooms prepared while I’m in them as if I’m going to get one, doctors have told me to take off everything – all after I’ve told them that I’m not getting one, am not s-xually active, and I am not visiting for that reason.

      There is definitely a link between harassing “attractive” women for these exams more than those that society would not view as “attractive”.

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14. san i can so relate to you. i have ptsd because of rude medical treatment. when i was heavy yes drs ignored me more. i got of the meds on my own.
    i am small and noway can a speckulm fit in me. m body freaks out if i see one.

    i can also relate to rude nurss in offices. some are such bitches. i am done with gyn;s.

    yes i say no to procedures i don’t want.

    i hope you find healing

    diane

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15. what gives nures the right to judge someone for having a procedure

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16. I worked in the medical field for six years. I worked around surgery residents and heard enough…I’m sorry, but I agree with the Heading that boys don’t look up their mothers skirts. I think it would be impossible for a man not to have erotic thoughts if he was examining an attractive woman. He may act professional during the exam but I am quite certain he would in some manner enjoy performing that exam on an attractive woman….you can’t change men’s brains, no matter what. We have a local doctor that ask high school girls if they have had a pap smear when these girls come in for sports physicals…I quit seeing him when a female friend of mine told me that happened to her in high school. This may sound like I am a controller but I have told my wife that unless it is a medical emergency, I do not want another man performing an examination on her. There are plenty of female doctors that are certified in all types of medicine. The final straw was when one resident that rotated in my wife’s clinic showed up in her room for an exam when she was in the hospital for a C-section. We had specified no residents…..he used the excuse that is she was not examined the hospital would not be liable for any complications….we did not know better and allowed him to do the exam. It make me sick to my stomach knowing he not only worked around my wife but now he was examining her most private areas. After that, when we said no male residents or males present, we meant it.

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    • Greg,

      I also spend a lot of time in the medical field as a student. The idea that male gyns re getting sexual gratification from exams is actually pretty hilarious to me. I can honestly say there isn’t anything sexual from the other end of the table. It literally does become like examining a foot. It becomes very easy to forget you’re examining someone’s genitals. I’m not in favor of forgetting that, though, because I think than then makes it easier to dehumanizes the patient, which I’m never really here for. Also, if you think women gyns aren’t just as abusive as male gyns, then I have news for you.

      “This may sound like I am a controller but I have told my wife that unless it is a medical emergency, I do not want another man performing an examination on her.”

      That sounds extremely controlling and concerning actually. That’s a decision to be made by your wife and your wife alone. Her body isn’t something you own or you can lay down rules about, only she can do that. I prefer male gyns and frankly, any man telling me I “can’t” because “other men aren’t allowed to see me undressed” is going to get dumped faster than he can say “pap.”

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      • First off, these decisions are frequently made by the medical personnel instead of the woman & a man might be MORE likely to try things like that- including intimidation or even physical force. If the goal he’s after is “close enough to touch” there’s the distinct possibility that he might get impulsive & even screw up his life attacking the other person. It’s not like that doesn’t happen in non-medical settings, so I don’t see how being in an isolated environment that they feel like they are the king of with plenty of coercive avenues & psychological blindspots to potentially use if someone does make a complaint is going to reduce the likelihood of attack- whether subtle or ostentatious.

        Secondly, if he was having his balls grabbed by some chick in a nurse’s uniform every month or three months or two years or whatever the hell “suggestions” the medical personnel would make I’m willing to be the woman he was dating would have a problem with it. She just probably would bottle it up & get pissy for no apparent reason every so often.

        Third, supposing he says you “can’t play doctor with other men”? Is that being dictatorial? So what if you’re paying, not playing? Ultimately, the guy can & probably does get off on the situation (which is only one concern). You getting duped by people in the medical profession (which you might have a bit of a favorable bias toward) doesn’t remove blatantly obvious potential for the guy to be getting his jollies from this situation.

        Sure, the same rules apply to lesbians & bisexuals- before it looks like I don’t get that. But if a woman is not really getting medical care (since there is high risk as well as low utility, and, apparently, alternatives), and she’s getting something penetrative done to her in the course of not getting this care- what does that say? That says “I’m using the doctor to cheat on you without getting caught.” Or that she doesn’t give a shit about miscarrying the child they’d have together- since that is a risk, especially if the guy deliberately injures her or gets too worked up & does things that cause injury in his passion.

        I don’t get this style of “independence.” A woman that won’t put up with a backhand or a dinner order WILL put up with the doctor being annexing & playing victim when barred from probing her. Not for nothing, but that actually comes of as crazy- especially since I consider people without self-determination to be insane.

        It’s even worse when they’ll put up with things like this being directed at their kids or even support it. It seems that there are a lot of mothers actually orchestrate these kinds of situations against their daughters! At the very least, making her out to be defective if she has bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness in a medical setting is sabotaging her. Plus, if the FATHER were to do that, it would be seen for what it is. I guess only the “big mean man” can be wrong?

      • Well I hate to break it to you, but women gyns have the exact same feelings of superiority than male gyns. If you want to examine what makes some gyns good and some gyns bad, the best advice I can tell you is to look at their political ideologies. Conservative OB/GYNs are very typically assholes who don’t give a single shit about autonomy. Those who fall on the more liberal spectrum, however, are more likely to view people with vaginas as actual humans, even more so if the doctor in question provides abortions. I’d pick Dr. David Grimes, Dr. Leroy Carhart, Dr. Warren Hern, Dr. Willie Parker, or many other male reproductive healthcare providers over a conservative woman gyn any day, because every day they risk their lives to ensure the uterus-bearing population has access to safe and legal heathcare.

        If I date someone who chooses to undergo testicular cancer screening and his doctor is a woman, who am I to tell him he can’t? It’s his healthcare, not mine. For me to try to control it would be extremely abusive.

        Having sex with someone and receiving reproductive care are two entirely different things. If you can’t see that, then I’m not sure what to tell you. If I get pregnant and need a surgical abortion, me getting that abortion is not me having sex with the doctor. Me getting the current healthcare I need for chronic pelvic pain is not me having sex with my doctors. Are you not a man, Alex? Because a man telling women getting healthcare that they’re “brainwashed” is pretty misogynistic. And who I select for my providers is my choice, not my partner’s or my father’s or my priest’s or any other man you seem to deem more rational than me to control my reproductive healthcare.

        What are you even talking about with miscarriages? And, again, I don’t know how to explain to you that getting a pap smear, an abortion, an IUD, an Essure, or any other internal work is not having sex (or doing anything like it honestly) and isn’t cheating. It would take a very controlling, abusive man to reach that conclusion.

        I disagree with mothers taking their daughters to gyns for the same reason I disagree with men telling their wives what doctors they can and cannot see-it violates that woman’s autonomy.

      • What I’m talking about with miscarriages is that there’s a risk of them being caused by injuries sustained from these procedures. I’d figure if a woman is saying, in some way or another, “I don’t give a shit about that” she must not care too much about the future she has with that man or the kid she theoretically would have. It, to me, is like chugging down a bottle of vodka while she’s pregnant. That’s her making a decision & thus the man is being “controlling” to even say that he doesn’t want her to be doing it. I get how some women don’t know things like that, but if she does & continues to do so- well that says something, doesn’t it?

        It’s not having sex to do these things, but there’s physiological overlap. What would be the dviding line with her cheating with another person? What would be the dividing line between a husband beating his wife & a husband raping his wife? Well, punching her in the face is different from imposed penetration, isn’t it?

        I also get so sick of people saying “it’s not a sexual environment.” Well, if someone got killed in that same setting, would it not be murder because it’s not a “homicidal environment”? It’s not technically a “sex situation” when it’s not consensual, anyway- that just denotes the nature of affront. If someone punches his wife in the head a couple of times, that’s not rape- due to extant disparity in situational dynamics. Different things happened.

        One other point is that gratification is only an accentuating factor. If a woman were to run another woman over with her car that would still be an attack whether she received any gratification from doing so at all- including arousal, which is a possibility, as some people have warped tastes. There’s people that get aroused by lying, stealing, and potentially even setting things on fire- so a taste for compulsion could very well be present & that can apply toward any gender.

        I don’t figure it’s misogynistic to say that things that are high risk & low utility is not “care.” This is something like a version of Snake Oil from earlier times. Although, I guess “Snake Venom” would be more appropriate in this case. There’s a lot of pernicious things in medicine & when it’s directed toward women, it’s apparently misogynistic to say so & to support these things not being directed at the one you’re in a relationship with.

17. Just web browsing and came across this information bulletin for cervical screening staff in the UK:

    “Important new information for all sample takers across NHS [city deleted]- Reviewed April 2013
    BACKGROUND
    Up until 2009, there has been no specific mechanism in South East Coast Region (SEC) for ensuring samples are taken by appropriately qualified staff. Due to a number of serious incidents reported within SEC and in other parts of England, a review of training and the allocation of sample taker numbers was carried out by the SEC Sample Taker Training Project Group, December 2009-March 2010.”

    So that’s encouraging –
    – no specific mechanism in South East Coast Region (SEC) for ensuring samples are taken by appropriately qualified staff?
    – a number of serious incidents?

    I wonder what they were, and why we never get to hear about them.

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    • That seems to be the way, keep anything negative out of the papers, don’t want to put some women OFF screening, heaven forbid.
      I think we’d all turn green if we knew half of what goes on behind closed doors. I can just imagine Papscreen and Breastscreen staff meetings, plotting away, how do we capture more women?

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    • This article states exactly what happened in some “incidents”.

      Click to access South_East_Coast_sample_taker_training_policy_Final_v3.pdf

      You might note the difference in training to take paps required by praticla nurses and doctors. The doctors with far less training can supervise their staff to take paps.

      I was looking at another NHS related document that states that cervicla cytology (reading pap slides) was not an exact science but rather subjective. So really is a cancer or precancer diagnosis subjective? Is getting a LEEP or cone biopsy subjective?

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      • Terrific piece of detective work, Moo! Thank you so much for that. The quality of smear taking in the UK is variable, with some people being able to do it, and other inept nurses and doctors causing a great deal of pain to women. Just scanning websites and they are full of UK women saying they have experienced pain from the test. Colposcopy units are full of women, who have been referred because their own GP practice can’t carry out the test successfully. Hiking up the costs to the taxpayer and the stress levels of the woman.

        The problem was particularly acute during the 1990’s. In 1989 only about 40% (2 million) women showed up for their smear test. After the incentive payment scheme came in in 1990 the screening figures jumped to 83%, meaning an extra 2 million smears were to be taken annually. I don’t believe they had the experienced smear takers available to cope with this sudden increase. I think doctors who may have last had a go on anaesthetised patients during their training decades before, were forced to “take it up again” to try to show the nurse what to do. The result was vast numbers of women being badly hurt by this process. Having a bad experience from the smear taker, is the top reason women refuse further smears in the UK.

      • thanks good info. i am going to see what i can find out about us woman and pap smears expereiences. i too have received bad treatment when office staf finds out i haven’t had a pap.
        i tell them its between me and the dr. i don’t want to tell those know it alls my business.

        there is a dr and a few nurses in the us, that want $ 10.000 grand to cure women of vaginal issues.
        i questioned them about the procedures would ‘t give much info. they asked very personal question about my past i hung up! want 10 grand and won’t give info what a scheme!

        myself and others have suffered enough, only to be ripped off by some few day cure!

        i am glad to not put myself through the truama anymore!

      • I might as well comment that the articles above mentioned did not have any mention of patient comfort. The serious incidents of concern were staff not completeing recommended courses and patients having their slides mixed up.

        What concerns me is that when a woman has an infection or inflammation, this can be seen when the examiner looks at the vagina or cervix BEFORE they do a pap smear. or the woman can tell them herself that she has an unusual discharge. If for example a woman has a bacterial infection, it is to be treated and cleared BEFORE a pap is done. If a pap is done during an infection then the results are skewed and an abnormal pap test results will be recorded. Nurse pap takers really do not care if a woman has an infection because they are not allowed to diagnosis but if they refused to take the pap then they would not get paid and some conflict with doctors etc. This is the flaw of the system. Even some doctors do not know enough not to do a pap when there is infection. It is also not appropirate to do a pap if a cervical polyp os visible. These used to be removed in that visit by the doctor but now referal is made for a colposcopy and biopsies are done in the polyp to make sure is it not one of the <0.5% cases of cancer. But what doctor is going to do a swab for bacteria and visual check for irritations and then say please come back for your pap in a few weeks and maybe everything will be cleared by then?

        When a pap is done on an infected cervix the infection can be pushed into the cervix and up into the uterus. Just think what that little brush does that no penis could do. How does that affect the situation? Does not chronic cervicla infection increase the risk of cervical cancer? What about fertility issues because doctors do not care about that unless they are going to make huge profits from IVF.

      • That is a very interesting document on the pitential subjective analysis of sample reading. It casts yet another doubt on the “success story” that is smear tests – note sarcasm there.

        I read somewhere too that the variables involved in collecting and analysing a sample make it too challenging to screen for cervical cancer. Those “abnormalities” detected in a sample can be as a result of hormones, latex allergies and even taking a bath. To think that this tool is used to detect for “changes that might lead to cancer” is a joke when it detects any and every change that occurs – no matter how minor. Between 10 and 60% of samples are inaccurate apparently. Can’t remember where I read this stuff from (think it’s Angela Raffle) and I’m sure it isn’t new information to anyone on here but it sure puts the screening methodology in perspective doesn’t it. To think that this fallible technology can mean the difference between getting and not getting a leep is almost incomprehensible.

      • AQ
        Also, consider there are no randomized controlled trials for pap testing, so this has been an experiment from the start. Women have been treated like lab rats, in the early days some women were raced in for hysterectomies if they produced a highly abnormal pap test, then they realized, hang on, all of these women can’t be destined to get cc, it’s rare!
        (CIN 3 only progresses to cc in about 12% of cases, some studies go a bit higher, but MOST CIN 3 does not progress to actual cc)

        We had an older woman post about her early hysterectomy, (think she was about 22) she was in fact a virgin when she was pressured into testing, (doctors were Gods back then, it was very difficult to refuse or complain) when she got a highly “abnormal” result, the inference was, “this is no virgin”. The experience had destroyed her life, it was clear she still carried trauma, and she chose never to marry and obviously, couldn’t have children, that option was taken away from her. (Was her post here or on Dr Sherman’s site?)

        This older woman had worked out she was over-treated after finding our references and doing some research, she always felt there was more to the story. At least she understood what had happened, she was an early casualty of this program. (if she’d been Finnish or Dutch (and many countries don’t test until age 25) she would have been protected from this program. I can’t recall her nationality now, think she may have been American.

        I often wonder how many women had unnecessary hysterectomies in those early years, I know some American women are still opting for hysterectomies after many years of being on the pap test-treatment merry-go-round, sick to death of the pain, fear and worry, they opt to get rid of everything and be done with it. Of course, they’re not done with it, the system drags them back for 6 monthly or yearly checks “just in case”.

        We know young women can produce highly abnormal pap tests and a normal one a year later, that’s why we shouldn’t test young women, it just leads to LOTS of over-treatment and provides NO benefit.

        You should never introduce a population screening test without conducting INDEPENDENT randomized controlled trials. (by someone like the NCI conducting or overseeing the trial)
        Also, cc was always a fairly rare cancer, so you’re dealing with very small numbers, it doesn’t take much to make it “look” like a success story. A 50% or 90% reduction might sound brilliant, but may only be a few women, that’s why they’re careful to always use relative risk in cervical and breast screening stats, never absolute risk.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2733256/

        I think many people were shocked when Angela Raffle’s research showed that 1000 women need regular pap testing for 35 years to save one woman. (and all the unnecessary biopsies and treatments over those years)
        Why are we spending millions to screen for a rare event while we ignore far greater risks to our health?
        That’s why I say “pretend cancer” and real cancer, we’ve created a make believe cancer that’s in turn created a hugely profitable industry in excess screening, procedures and over-treatment. Many women greatly fear a cancer that doesn’t exist, there is no rampant cc in the developed world.

        This cancer was also in steady decline before testing even started so I do wonder whether this program is piggy backing off a natural decline with VERY few women actually helped or saved by this testing.
        Other factors would be contributing to the decline, but the program grabs all the credit, how convenient. I’m talking about better hygiene, many more hysterectomies, better condoms etc.
        Archie Cochrane warned them what would happen, he was right, they were wrong, yet women have been systematically herded, misled and coerced into this testing and this is called a success story…for whom?

        One question no one is asking about over-diagnosis in breast screening – why weren’t women told about this risk earlier? They’re making out this is something new, but the original Cochrane review came out over a decade ago.
        Now we have the study (published in the Lancet) that shows that women are less likely to screen if they receive clear risk information – so perhaps, we should share this information with them, you know, informed consent and all that.
        This will horrify the zealots and BreastScreen who are desperately trying to find more women to feed into the screening machine.
        I find it telling that we have to have studies and ponder at length whether women should be told the truth about this testing…it says a lot about the way women are viewed by the Govt, doctors and how women themselves have been manipulated to think the same way.
        Shocking we’re still living in the “do as you’re told” and “we know best” days.

      • Elizabeth – Gosh, the story of that poor woman who received hysterectomy aged 22 is so sad. These stories need to be exposed in all media outlets. These poor women are the “forgotten” and hidden victims of the damned screening programme. Ignored by everyone including the “survivors” and militant women who push screening at all costs. Another factor which annoys me, there is a certain “morality” fimension that the pro-screening brigade like to push and it was exemplified in your post. Women are judged as being “immoral” in some ways for not testing (how anyone can be “immoral” for refusing a screening test is beyond my comprehension but there we are) and “immoral” if they receive highly suspect results. It is a way of not only monitoring women and their intimate lives but also passing judgement on them. In the age of equality and sexual freedom, this is one of the last few domains of sexual discrimination. It has a “surveillance” and controlling component to it that goes far beyond concern about cervical cancer. Either way, that poor woman’s life has been ruined.

      • adawells – you mention the increase from 40% uptake to 83% uptake after incentives came in. What do we think was responsible for that increase? Better communication to patients and twice as many patients choosing to have smears, or pushy tactics from doctors and nurses?

      • Oh, undoubtedly it was pressure from doctors to get women to screen that caused the big jump in screening in 1990.
        In 1989 when the UK screening programme was first brought in only about 40% of women were getting screened, largely as a part of pregnancy care. It wasn’t enough to run the programme, so Kenneth Clarke brought in a new decree (White Paper) in 1990 that doctors would get a small bonus (about £300), if they got 50% of women to screen and a big bonus (about £2500) if they got 80% of women to screen. What happened was that many doctors were getting around 78% of women to screen, so were just 2 percentage points off getting the big cash prize, and this led many of them to adopt unethical high pressure tactics on any woman walking in through the door. I feel there must have been a great many complaints about this, but all hidden from public view, of course, and any dissent quashed by media campaigns to encourage uptake and make women feel criminals if they didn’t attend.
        At some point along the line, (I don’t know when), this was changed, and I am now reliably informed that screening targets for doctors have been lowered. It’s now a stepped series of bonuses starting at 40% rising 5% each time to a maximum of 80%, so doctors getting around 78% will get the second highest amount of cash. I wrote to the UK government to complain, and they replied that it’s not a bonus, but a straight fee for each job done. But then why have the stepped increases to 80%?
        Cervical screening targets are still a part of the QOF target figures that every GP practice is required to meet in the UK.

18. Pap Tests Often Given When Not Needed
    By Brenda Goodman, MA
    WebMD Health News Reviewed by Laura J. Martin, MD
    WebMD News Archive
    Dec. 3, 2012 — Against clinical guidelines, many women are still getting Pap smears (a test that’s meant to find cancer of the cervix) even after they’ve had a total hysterectomy, which removes the uterus and cervix, according to a new government report.

    The cervix is the “neck-like” lower part of the uterus. A Pap test uses cells scraped from the cervix to check for early changes that may indicate cervical cancer or precancer. The new report, from the CDC, looked at trends in Pap testing in U.S. women from 2000 to 2010.

    In telephone surveys of thousands of women, about 60% of those over age 30 who said they’d had a hysterectomy also reported having a recent Pap smear in 2010.

    Even though that number was down about 15 percentage points since 2000, researchers said it was still too high.

    “Some of these women would need continued screening, for various reasons, but that’s a small percentage,” says researcher Meg Watson, MPH, an epidemiologist with the CDC’s Division of Cancer Prevention and Control. “

    Reply
    • Its ridiculous. My GMA had a hysterectomy 30 years ago and still she thinks she’s need to see a gyn and he gives her a pap smear. He never tells her what it is for . she thinks it checks for infections. It seems every woman who goes to him gets a pap smear. No matter what and she went there for a yeast infection and the pap came back abnormal. He’s add in the local phone book sounds like he is very Eger to do keep on woman who have a abnormal pap smear evaluation. I told my GMA to stay a way from him but she still thinks she’s needs a “femail check up””. She looked at me and said you never had one. I told her no I don’t believe in them she said all woman should have them. I try to tell her all I have read and she doesn’t believe me. I’m over age and I’m glad my mother never forced me to when I was a teen.

      Reply
      • I might be missing something obvious, but what is GMA?

19. I ment to say he’s Eger to do keep on woman.

    Reply
20. Leep

    Reply
21. I have avoided the gynecologist for several years, since my last visit was simply for birth control yet despite my numerous objections I was forced into the invasive exams in order to get the birth control. I never realized how damaging that was to me until I recently became pregnant (mainly because I wasn’t willing to go through with the rape again for no medical reason and therefore was denied the most reliable birth control option) I had several panic attacks, lost much sleep, couldn’t eat, and was having violent and suicidal thoughts about having to go to the appointment. I had canceled several other appointments with other doctors because they refused to even give me a female dr. And the stress of that was causing severe emotional problems. This kind of stress isn’t good for my baby!
    Again I repeated said no, explained my reasoning, and was coerced yet again into being medically raped. I was talked to like a 4 year old, told she would”only have a look” but not do anything I didn’t want. She did the pap anyway, totally without my consent or even telling me she was about to do it. I had even asked to not have the brush, as a swab is safer during pregnancy, totally ignored. Afterwards, when she asked if I had any questions, the first thing out of my mouth was-“will I be forced to have all kinds of things done to me while in labor?” Her answer was unbelievable! “Only things you consent to, otherwise it’s assualt” UM…you just assaulted me!!!
    Anyway, I am now extremely emotionally disturbed by what happened. I am in pain and cramping from the stupid test I was forced to have, thankfully no bleeding yet. Terrified my baby will die because of what I let that b* do to me. I have been thinking of an abortion so that I do not have to go through anymore of this. I wanted this baby greatly until today. I have also had suicidal thoughts and worry I may not be able to stop myself. To think, this “routine” exam may cause me to choose to never have another child or even this one…. Almost no one can understand, as they all have been brainwashed, so I am all alone except for you guys.

    Reply
    • You can have the baby naturally, if you want. You might even go somewhere other than where you are (even if it’s another country) if the laws are a bit “ify” on that. It’s something to do research on, since if you don’t have this baby (which you DO seem to want to have), it’ll probably haunt you. Not to blame you for what happened & they shouldn’t be doing shit like this, but precluding situations like these would be preferable to not having the baby- especially since the means of abortion would likely be an issue. Even if something’s a means to an end doesn’t mean that it’s not a problematic methodology.

      Don’t know if there’s a man in the picture, but if there is you could maybe try explaining to him that this is an issue & you would like his support with blocking these things. If they try to bar him from anything, leave or try to force it.

      Properties don’t change by designation, just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle it’s still murder. This is an interface with a sexual area (specifically a penetrative one) as a product of someone else’s decision-making, which is an attack. It would be called an “iatrogenic attack” in this case, but it being an unconvention variation doesn’t make it a non-existant one. What HAPPENS is what OCCURS, so what is somoene going to aruge? That reality takes a coffee break for medical personnel?

      That bitch saying “Only things you consent to, otherwise it’s assault” seems to be more of a taunt than anything else. You told them you didn’t want this to be going on, this is what they do anyway, and then they say that things like that are an assault?

      Maybe they feel that they substitute consent & that “you” are consenting to what they choose to do? Maybe they’re just acting like this is what they feel as a cover? Like they’re not doing anything as a deliberate attack, they’re just not quite proficient enough or they got confused or they’re just plain crazy- all things that “vitiate culpability.” It’s attacking the innocent to treat them like a “bad guy.”

      There exists disparity between you doing something & them doing something, so that is counterfactual. Again, what happens is what occurs. Sometimes people try to use things that don’t make sense to cover themselves- it’s confusing & that’s the point. It’s hard to “lock onto” because someone doesn’t even go into the “Doesn’t Make Sense Bin” to make deduction. They try to connect things in reality & when things don’t add up they move on to something else. Instead of being caught in a lie, they’re seen to be people that “just got things wrong.”

      Maybe they simply think better of their decisions & figure: “Well, what comes from me is an A & what comes from you is a B, at best- so my output overrides yours.” Feeding their ego, basically. It’s noticeable that they act a lot like a junkie protecting their high.

      Reply
    • I had the same problem, I was denied the choice of gender with my doctor. I belittled and told I’d be a bad mother, accused of being selfish telling me “You have to do it for the baby.” as if they were holding my little one hostage.. it felt like rape! I am sorry this is happening to you, it hurts and kicks up a large storm of fear toward the medical community! You can check out medicalpatientmodesty.org. Try sending a message through the contact link, or browse the directory of all female ob/gyn practices and hope there is one near you.

      I drove an hour away for my birth, they were respectful of my modesty and the gender of staff in the room. Toward the end of my pregnancy I asked why they weren’t doing vaginal exams and for one it was out of respect, for two they said there is no way to tell for sure when the baby is coming weather or not they do that.

      It was wrong for them to force those tests on you. Try bringing a tape recorder to your appointments from now on. I don’t know if you live in a one or two party consent state, but many states don’t need both parties knowing a recording is taking place. What that woman did to you is criminal and defies your right to autonomy!

      I pray you have a safe pregnancy and healing birth. Once again I am sorry you are going through this! They will bully you sometimes during birth, make a birth plan, and again try the medical patient modesty site, Misty was very kind, understanding and helpful to me when I ran out of hope and contemplated abortion myself. I got a doula, had an attentive husband present at all times, and a good support group of family in the room. The more witnesses the less they can get away with. Home birth is also an option in truth some of the things they do in the hospital cause problems to happen. The number of births that really have complications is very low. Just like cervical cancer they want you to believe birth is a life threatening experience instead of a natural process. Listen to your heart and body, and good luck to you!

      Reply
      • See, I don’t get why it doesn’t generate hatred- instead of fear. Hatred seems to be more contradictive & useful. Also, they shouldn’t be accommodated at all- they should go wanting.

      • Alex, for me it’s fear because weather in the doctor’s office or out of it, these violating situations are permitted in our society. Yes, I hate gynecologists too, and I am bias to dislike the males even more due to my experiences. Despite what the media, and American culture would want people to believe, there is little to no sensitivity about crimes against women. Often times these sex crimes are given misplaced sympathy to the attackers “He still has such a bright future, he just made one tiny mistake!”, calls the women out about either exaggerating, lying, or the attack somehow being a misunderstanding. Given that only 2 out of 100 reported rapes ever result in an attacker being imprisoned, and sexual abuse in medicine has a low report rate… one can only submit to the fact that a doctor has more freedom than your everyday idiot. In my experience this follows into the doctor’s office… I try to get psychiatric help now because of the fact that during my pregnancy the first hospital’s mistreatment unraveled everything that made me feel safe, and every coping tool I had. My psychologist also has scolded and talked down to me for having anger and fear toward gynecology. It is so permissive in our culture, women are for procreation and I think as a result we get treated like a car, gotta make sure everything’s running smooth and we’re reliable to do the task our gender is given-because there’s no way mother nature is smarter than us, we women aren’t qualified to deliver our own babies!

        I found security after what I’ve survived before the whole hospital thing. That security was the fact that no one will ever harm me again that way and not answer for it. The fear comes from the fact that doctors have just as much authority as policemen, and they don’t have to answer to the people for what they do, they get to answer to the medical board. It’s the sudden realization that people can still mistreat me that way (weather medical or for health or not it feels the same.) and get away with it, just not your everyday person, they have to have a medical degree or badge. It’s not comforting. That’s where the fear comes from! It’s like they have a license to violate and degrade!

      • San: Well, yeah- I get where the fear comes from. It totally makes sense & bothers me quite a bit (even as a guy- partially because whoever I’m with is held somewhat in the esteem of prey). The thing is, I wonder why these “people” aren’t held in the same esteem. Doesn’t really have to be that someone has a “wind-up toy” mentality & acts this way toward everyone. They can be situational.

        I suppose it’s harder for women, but still. I hope this doesn’t come off as blaming the people this is aimed at, I just don’t get how it’s so easy for women (it seems especially the ones that try to direct women into this sort of thing) to see men as “the enemy,” yet not someone that actually engages them.

      • Thank you so much for your reply, it is comforting to know someone else was in this situation and made it through. I hadn’t thought of lots of witnesses, I’ll be sure to invited the whole family in and let them all know what I want so they can help defend me.
        It is sad we need to be defended from the medical field, they are supposed to take care of us not hurt us! I am also shocked at the lack of rights a woman has once she is pregnant, as if we don’t matter, only the baby.
        You are right about this abuse being allowed in our society, so many women submit to anything just because the doctor says it’s needed, when it’s really about making money or exerting power over the defenseless. The few who question them are treated terribly…

22. Thank you so much for a reply. To know I’m not alone is so important. Since I couldn’t sleep because I know I’ll have nightmares, I did further research. I live in the states, which I was already aware means I have no rights once I’m pregnant. If I attempted to kill myself and survived but killed the baby, I would be forcibly institutionalized, and then once “better” , arrested for murder. I now don’t even have the right to end my own life….
    My husband was with me during the exam, he was shocked how insistent they were. Of course he has never even heard of someone receiving this kind of treatment., as they would never do this to a man. He has been very upset about how I was treated and the after affects. I wanted a midwife, but our insurance will not cover it.
    I have started researching doing my own prenatal care, and the legal consequences of that. I may have child protective services try to take my baby for not being under a drs care, but from everything I’ve seen they can’t actually take it unless I’m on drugs. I am still shocked that I cannot receive proper care, but as the first appointment tests for many problems, I will get my paperwork and attend the ultrasound next week and then be done with it. I will have proof I tried, and will continue to monitor my health myself. Most of the further appointments simply weigh you and take your blood pressure. I may invest in other supplies, find an independant lab for a few tests, and keep records I can present to social workers.
    The most interesting thing, I’m not scared to give birth, only what these “care” providers will do to me without my permission. I’m now also terrified my unwanted pap will come back positive. Most women in this country will allow even cone biospy done while pregnant “cause the dr thinks it’s safe, so it must be” these people are exactly why they are allowed to treat us like this…I am just thankful I’m not a blind follower of anything. It almost makes me glad I’ve had previous bad experiences with doctors so I know to question them.

    Reply
    • Well, keep in mind that ultrasounds aren’t always external (I’m not entirely sure the regular ones aren’t like nails on a chalkboard for the baby, either). There’s two different variations & they already have demonstrated hostility. Them doing something after you flat-out tell them not to is something that might re-occur. There’s so many stories of things turning into an ambush after you get there & it’s not unheard of for them to surprise people with abducting their children.

      This is going to sound nuts, but maybe you should just have the baby at home in a country where that’s not illegal. Off the top of my head, Portugal is like that- but there’s others. You could always go there before there’s all kinds of travel bullshit & everything. Don’t exactly know how one is supposed to verify that they’re NOT nine months pregnant, but if you’re obviously not that far along then you can probably do a cruise or something (not that it’s something you’d avail yourself of, but it seems that some of them even have medical personnel like a ship’s doctor on board- so they might not bust your chops about being pregnant & traveling at the same time). .

      It’s rather hard to say what things are in America, since there’s plenty of freedoms on the books that don’t work out that way functionally & there’s quite a few things that are crimes that are completely permitted. I’ve found that if it’s unfair or doesn’t make sense, that’s what’ll generally go on- especially if it’s with an “intense” subject.

      Reply
23. I called today about the ultrasound, of course they wanted to do an internal. I said I wasn’t comfortable with that and wanted an external. Was told I could ask technician when I got there. I asked if my wished would be respected, and she said of course, so I mentioned the forced pap yesterday. Receptionist had no answer for that. I’ve decided I will go and absolutely refuse-say N O real slow so they can understand… Walk out if they get too pushy. I also asked if my bloodwork will be ready and if I could have a copy, and they said yes. I’ll get full medical record printed off. At least they know they have to do that by absolute law! Having a forceful attitude and voice seemed to have a better effect than being nice, unfortunately I tend to get very angry very quickly when presented with stupidity.
    I’m interested in the ultrasound just to make sure baby is alive, dr was rushing and barely tried to listen with Doppler for heartbeat. Another great example of the crap care I received.
    I live on a livestock farm in southern Appalachia. I love the beauty of this country, but wow are they backwards about anything medical or political! I manage the animals daily on the farm, so I’m not sure I could even travel to a city with better care choices. As it is I’m traveling an hour one way to a practice with mainly female drs. In a sad hope they would treat me better or I would be more comfortable. I will look into other countries policies and perhaps take a much needed vacation 🙂

    Reply
    • yes i have found being nice does no good. if i don’t tough with medical office staf i get no where. i am little 5’1 so they think they can boss me around.

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      • Thank you all for your replies! I also have the problem of being 5’1 lol!

      • dr drew is talking about a gyn who lost his license for having sex with patients he drugged

      • yes they always have ” the big bull” upfront. I have had to say excuse me in a sriong voice on the phone, becaus they try to bully me

    • The best way to avoid an internal scan is to refuse to take your underwear off. That way the technician cannot say to you that he/she “just wants a little look”. Wear trousers (or pants) and just unzip them and only allow the technician access to your stomach.

      Good luck.

      Reply
      • ….I should add that you may wish to keep your underwear on for all future visits to your doctor as she cannot be trusted.

      • I wish I would have known this when I was 14 years old. My mother took me to a female dr. The nurse told me to take off my clothes except for my underwear. The dr came in and started to examine me in the usual way, you know throat, ears, heart and all that stuff. Then she tells me to lie down on my back and bend my knees up. Then without asking, she pulls down my underwear to my ankles, forces my legs open and touches me down there. I felt like I was raped, by a woman no less. It has been years but I still have nightmares about it. I’m surprised I was able to go on and have children. Will the pain of that memory ever go away?

      • Me: That’s horrible! I would never forgive my woman if she did something like that to my daughter (“ours” or not). I don’t know why women feel that they can impose what decisions they will on other people that have a similar anatomical configuration. It’s obviously not the same instance of person.

        Maybe women like this doctor feel like they get a free-pass because the association with attacks of that nature are almost totally male-on-female or male-on-male (prison)? They see an opportunity, basically. Especially considering that iatrogenic attack can be something of a cultural blindspot.

        Oddly enough, people see getting billed for medical procedures they didn’t even have to be an issue. They definitely get how they can be trying something even when they don’t admit it.

24. Wanted to add, that farming is the main reason I feel the way I do about all this. 15 years, thousands of animals cared for from breeding to weaning, and I’ve only ever assisted 5-6 of them when it was obvious there were terrible issues. A few unattended births did not end up well, 5-6 of those as well. So out of at least a thousand, 10 or 12 had problems. I know good and well it’s a natural process. Animals wait until they are alone and safe and the baby is ready before they give birth. Hence the reason so many women stall out in labor every time they are interrupted or moved. Or labor doesn’t go well because of inductions etc. every one of the animals I had to assist did not appreciate it. It is unnatural for some strange thing to be poking and prodding in there, totally natural to have a baby come out though. Horses and cattle have it way worse than a human-1,000 lb animal giving birth to a 100 lb baby. Only ever had two need help out of around a hundred. I feel our instincts are often overlooked by the medical field to our detriment.

    Reply
    • Indeed that is the case. I’m in the UK. I had my two children as home births, with just the two midwives in attendance, no drugs or anything. First baby I had in a kneeling position, and my second came in a standing position with both my hands on the back of one of our dining chairs for support. Every woman should be allowed to find the position that suits her best, and allowed to follow the rhythms of her own labour, and being on your back in labour is absolutely the most painful position to be in. It infuriates me when this is presented on countless TV shows as the only way to give birth. I never watch any programmes about childbirth or hospitals as a result. When the time comes, your baby and your body will know exactly what to do, so just let it get on with it and keep the medics out.

      Reply
    • Google “prenatal protocol” and maybe the district in which you live or getting medical care. This is so you know what will be expected. There are some blood, urine tests you might want to get.

      Most women are never told what pap tests during early pregnancy and transvaginal ultrasounds are for. Myself i woukd refuse. For myself I would refuse sime gentic testing because there is risk of miscarriage and I would not have an abortion in any case. However not all women feel the same way. I do not think that knowing the possbiliity that I could have a child with a genetic or other “defect” (because no test is 100% accurate) could help me “prepare”. The worry would make me sick. I woukd also be judged by other people for not having an abortion.

      Reply
      • I feel the same way about the genetic testing. Why would I want to have another thing to worry about? The tests aren’t that accurate, so you could be worrying to death for months over nothing. I can prepare once it’s born! I’m my state, it’s required by law to have the baby tested at birth for everything in those prenatal tests, so why repeat them? So they can make more money??
        The pap they forced on me has definitely disrupted things, thankfully no bleeding. I had no problems before the appointment, but within 20 minutes I was cramping terribly, almost rhythmically as in contractions! I can honestly say that if my babe wasn’t already 14 weeks, or if it was less secure, I could totally see how a pap could cause miscarriage. The medical profession totally ignores this risk in this country, but in most others they wouldn’t even consider doing it because they admit it can. Women it happens to are told it would have happened anyway, never mind the “coincidence” that it happens 24-48 hours afterwards! Also, I find it interesting that my mental state has been totally ignored, even though it’s very important to keep stress levels down. “Caring for me” yeah, um, ill do better if you leave me alone…

    • That’s suprising- I would have thought an area like that would be big on doing things yourself & not being pushed around. The whole affront to your family issue has been disregarded, then? I’d think at least it would be seen as being fancy- like a “Princess Dinnerfork & her la-dee-da ways of doing things.”

      Well, I don’t know how well this idea would go over, but Belize seems to be pretty good with childbirth. The was a book Birth in Four Cultures that might be of interest to you. There’s also Rainforest Remedies, but that’s seems to be more of general guide (don’t remember if there were things about pregnancy & childbirth in there, but there’s probably some herbs mentioned & places to get them).

      Reply
      • Exactly, you would think that in an extremely rural area like this, it would be common. Some women live hours from a hospital as many have stopped doing any maternity care at all due to cost. We don’t even have midwives in this state! Only OBs. I tried for a midwife in a neighboring state, but my insurance won’t cover them. May try for an exemption? Belize actually sounds ok to me, may even be able to take a long road trip 🙂
        We do have some very strict Christian groups here that may not receive any prenatal. Pretending to be one of those people would be undoubtedly impossible for me though lol! I may research how they do things, as that may be the only acceptable way to go if I stay here? It’s pretty sad that my morals and values will only be respected if I hide them behind a religion….
        I’m still having fairly bad pain and cramps 48 hours later. I also feel nauseous, which had stopped due to pregnancy weeks ago. I just feel BAD, not capable of doing basic things like housework or caring for myself. Every time the sharp pain happens I become enraged again, but thankfully I usually don’t cry anymore. Suicidal thoughts are still there occasionally, but I won’t follow through with it now. Probably only because I was able to receive support here, so thank you to all of you again 🙂 Shooting pain is not a normal symptom afterwards, but I’m certainly not calling them so they can give me another pelvic to see if “everything’s ok” cause yeah, that will make it better….
        I wanted to go to the next appointment in a month to ask her a few relavent serious questions, but mainly confront her about what she did. Ask her how I’m ever supposed to trust her again? Any answer she gives will be pathetic. I can never trust her again. If I stay at that practice but change doctors, she still may be the one to attend my birth if I go there. So she says “I’ll just have a look” and performs a episiotomy I didn’t want or does a stretch and sweep I said no to. I will not have that lady near my crotch again!!! I’ve got a page full of questions to ask, all are pretty blatantly proving that I know she is a liar. I know I will be angry enough to follow through with it, but will it really help my healing? If it would protect even one other woman from her and make me feel a little better I think it’s worth it. I’d love to see her realize not every patient is a dumb subservient hillbilly!

25. Well, as far as religious ideas go I had one a while ago about the sanctity of life. How is someone going to care so much about life that they don’t care about what happens to it? That these attacks (which shouldn’t require special “deactivation codes” in the first place) are a religious issue because one holds life sacred. At least, the kind of life that isn’t pulling shit like this. “Everyone’s equal” is only true in the sense that reality doesn’t take a coffee break for anyone, regardless of race or occupation.

    Not for nothing, but all that applies to anything they might generate as a problem due to accident, incompetance, or simple malice. And let’s not forget generating expenses! The stuff they were taught in order to become an expert in their doctrine might very well be designed at times simply to make money. So one might be concerned that your religious beliefs that the child should not be iatrogenically attacked would not be respected.

    Reply
    • It’s far too easy for doctors to ignore religion, but the US and state governments will not. My mental and emotional well being are considered lesser than my babies physical well being. It is a violation of sanctity of life along with my rights, because how am I supposed to be a good mother to the child if I am mentally scarred? Depressed? Angry? emotional trauma can cause health problems for either of us or even miscarriage.
      I haven’t heard the “you don’t love your baby” or “if you cared about your baby…” Or “you have to put baby first” yet, but I’m sure it will happen over and over with these people. You can care about your baby AND yourself. It’s simply a way to shame/scare the person into doing what they want and to stop asking questions (heaven forbid I think for myself, do my own research and come to a different conclusion!) It’s amazing how many women out there will say those things too, as if the mothers mental state has no effect on actual health. Or the comments “better get used to it, suck it up, deal with it ” and so on. Just because it didn’t bother them or they had to suffer through in silence doesn’t mean everyone has to allow that to occur to them.
      It’s amazing how many c-sections are done in this country. 25%! So Were supposed to believe 1/4 of women cannot give birth naturally? You’d have to be stupid to think that doesn’t just reek of profiteering! There are plenty of women on forums questioning the more useless of the prenatal appointments, only to be blasted by other women. Or the issues on this forum, and we are attacked for even questioning the “Gods”. The medical field has truly mastered brainwashing for their own profit, and women tend to go along willingly…

      Reply
      • Not for nothing, but this is a big part of why I want to move to another country. The way this country is, whether you figure it’s the way of the majority or not, is not safe for general living. Sure, shit can happen in other parts of the world, but it doesn’t seem to be such a determined drive. There being a “mission” to screw up people’s lives or just live them instead of people is a big risk & not in the skydiving way.

        If you have heritage from a country, you might be able to get citizenship there. I’m trying for Italian, but they said it might take a year or two for the paperwork to actually go through (or, I’m sure, having a connection make a couple of phone calls). Another thing is that there’s the ability to get it through marriage, so your husband can always get citizenship. Also, your child might be able to get it from being BORN in whatever country, maybe with it “radiating” to you & your husband. So planning a trip (and whatever visas/permits) so that it’ll overlap with your child’s birth might be a good idea.

        I’d be pretty surprised if you wouldn’t get an extension on things if your child was born there & it happened around the duration limit on whatever permits you have. Keep in mind that a residency can last for at least five years & be renewed. I don’t know what kind of benefits you can get from being there & having a kid (it might not apply to people that aren’t a citizen of THAT country- even though you can live, work, and retire in any of the EU countries if you have citizenship in one of them). My advice is to not try to “drain it dry,” if you do get some- as there seems to be a problem with people draining the countries & claiming that it’s religious persecution if they don’t get whatever they stamp their foot for.

26. i need to share that my ptsd from bad gyn treatment sems to follow me, in dealing with drs offices.
    i brought info to my dr from my insurance about ordering prescriptions. I explained that i was unable to get a fax number because of privacy. I told the receptionist what the insurance company told me. Than is other women ( bitch ) butted in. She yelled don’t argue with me. i said i’m not arguing i’m telling you what in surance told me. She was very rude. I explained to her i had a script for lab work, that i wasn’t due for apt.

    iAgain my anxiety wa taken advantage of. I guess you have to be a mean bitch to work in a dr’s office.

    i feel i have been black balled by dr’s office for a long time.
    I am nice have all my information but alway treated rudely. i don’t go to dr’s much.
    can’t deal with the bs.

    I feel becaus i am small they feel they can intimdate me.
    People need to stand up for respectful treatment.

    having anxiety attack right now.
    If i need my thyroid med, i would never se a dr, its too much stress.

    Please any help would mean alot

    Reply
27. I can understand where your coming from. I’m 30 but I look like a teenager and sound young too. People in general talk down to me all the time like I’m a child. I tell pple my age and I get omg you look 17. Its so annoying to have to deal with. And that nurse was rude to me like I was a child for not screening.

    Reply
    • thanks for understanding. i look younger too. do you get picked on by big women? i do. they try to control me, like to be rude to me.
      I get treated better when i get my car serviced than at any dr’s office.

      thanks

      Reply
      • I get talked down to by a lot of woman and some older men too. I remember the last time I went to a walk-in clinic for panic attacks. The nurse thought I was under the screening age and when she found out my true age at the time was 24 she jumped right into asking when was your last pap. I hate that question and hate dealing with what comes along with it. A few days latter a different nurse there talked down to me like I must be ignorant for not getting paps.

      • BTW I’m 30 never had a pap and still standing. I will never believe that all woman will benefit from them. It never made since to me the pressure hear for healthy woman to have invasive exams just BC we have “female parts”. In the words of that nasty nurse ” so complex”. Give me a break.

      • This is to Diane. I was reading some of the older posts today and felt I had to comment on what you put.. I am 5’7” and have been taught how to hold myself correctly in front of a class full of children. So no one intimidates me. However, I have found that the smaller teachers are the most fearsome. They ‘act’ big. Its a pantomime put on to give people the impression you are actually taller than you are. Teachers achieve this by speaking slowly, loudly and from the lungs. Don’t just talk from your throat. Children talk from the throat. Sounds just come out of their mouths and that’s why they don’t have much power. Hold you stomach tight and hold yourself rigid and hold air in your lungs. This gives the impression of confidence in your height and that you are a force not to be messed with. You will be amazed by trying our simple trick on people how much power you will gain in any given setting. When I was doing my teacher training I practiced in front of a mirror. Perhaps this will help.

28. I’m a guy & I’m 5’3″- I notice it fairly frequently that people kind of talk “directionally.” They talk “up” to taller people, “eye-to-eye” with people that are about the same height as them, and “down” to people shorter to them (whether that means hostility, condescension, or diminishingly- all opposite of talking “up”).

    I’ve been in a lot of fights in my life & maybe that’s part of why it doesn’t bother me much when someone talks like that to me. It coming off like they’re about to come after me doesn’t really get scary most of the time. Sure, having had something happen before doesn’t mean that it’s not a problem in itself. Getting shot would be an issue every time, for instance. There’s always the potential for it to go differently than it did before, also.

    Another thing that’s helpful is simply seeing them for what they are: less. I don’t mean that in an arrogant way & it’s not something that I get “high” off of (actually, I never really thought exclusivity amplified anything- whether I’m the only one in the room that can do something or everyone else can also do it, I still have the same capabilities). Simply realizing that they aren’t good enough makes it MUCH easier to not be swayed by their manner toward you. Not everything that would be phrased this same way is the same thing, so be careful of people that think this way or how you come off.

    Not for nothing, but it seems a lot of thyroid stuff is iodine-related & not something they get much in Japan (something to do with their diet). Maybe looking into that can help?

    Reply
29. yes i ate being asked by some strange nurse when my last pap was, none of her busness. if the dr wants to know he can ask.

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30. Yes its just a chance for them to judge other woman or talk down to them for not screening. They act like all woman go along with it. And that those that don’t are crazy. I find that hard to believe.

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31. yea it is crazy. my mom was bad enough pushing me to go , i finally started lieing to her telling her i go.

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32. An update-went for my ultrasound, tech was very nice. Did external ultrasound, got to see my baby moving and heartbeat 🙂 then she asked nicely if I wanted internal and I refused. She had no problem with that. She was young, so probably hasn’t learned to be pushy and coercive yet lol!
    Then I asked for a copy of all my records from the practice. No problem, they printed them up right away. Probably only because they know it’s against the law not too…
    My lab work looks fine, but there was a letter to my primary care provider in there too. WOW! If you guys saw this or your own letter you would be shocked!!!! Lies in the letter-my temperature (since no one took it!) and that I had stopped taking my birth control “because I didn’t like they way it made me feel”-I had stated I didn’t go to gyno anymore because I hated the exam!!!!I loved my BC, but wasn’t about to sign up for medical rape anymore!
    She wrote I had no idea when my last period was, except I gave her exact dates! She stated I didn’t do my own breast exams, except I told her I did! She complained it was an unplanned pregnancy, except it wasn’t and no one ever said that! She noted that I was “highly anxious” but not in any distress. Being highly anxious is distress….
    She went on and on in the letter about how challenging it was to get me naked and have the exam. So how is this info relevant to a GP? She mentioned in the letter that I’d rather go into a field and labor by myself, um yeah I’d be safer doing that than having you as my doctor!! I said that while asking if she would do whatever she wanted against my will during my labor.
    At the end she even stated all of my and my husbands questions were answered, but of course they were not, she ran off after the question I just referred to.
    Lastly, I haven’t seen my primary doctor for over a year, so why would he care?
    Well, I knew she was a bitch before, now I’ve got proof in writing! I’m going to my next appointment, and using the letter to prove to her how ignorant she is. You could tell she wasn’t even listening…now I know she wasn’t!

    Reply
    • I wonder if you should seek legal consult about that letter. It might affect your child custody in the future. Unplanned pregnancy = risk
      Be careful. Ask for your record to be corrected.

      Reply
      • Didn’t think of that. Maybe they start some shit that way, too.

      • Why does unplanned or not matter to a doctor? What’s the point of them knowing that?

      • It seems that with some people, mentally encompassing something gives them a sense of sway over it.

        I think they like to have more & more information for this purpose. It’s something like annexing more of the person and/or their situation.

        Cynical, I know- but there’s the potential for underlying psychological alignments to steer someone’s actions. Maybe they gravitate more toward one ting or another because of it, maybe they come up with a way of doing things that suits their alignment, maybe they come up with something & figure out bullshit to cover it with- all things that someone probably wouldn’t admit to or might not really grasp on a verbal level (it might not be something that they mentally articulate, like someone talking out loud in their own head, it’s just a drive & preference thing).

      • I’m thinking of going to my GP to correct the info, as I doubt I can trust her to do it. I will also be going to my second appointment with her alone, so my husband doesn’t have to see the ugliness when I fire her/confront her about all this. Even if it gets heated enough she wants to call the police, I will inform her that I’ll be using the opportunity to file an assault charge against her. And if legal council is needed, I’ve got no problem doing that too!:) she’s really gonna wish she had respected my rights and behaved ethically!

    • Wait, I thought there were two different women? Is it the tech that was okay, but they’re working for Princess Attitude?

      Also, when I was younger, I’d get into fights pretty frequently because somoene would tell someone else that I was talking shit about them when I wasn’t. Maybe this is trying to do the same thing? Seems like a bit of a bad sign to me. What shit would they pull & then lie about later?

      Reply
      • Yes, the tech was the nice one. Worked for the hospital not the office itself. Just uses their equipment.
        I’m thinking of making an appointment with my gp to give him the correct information, so at least it is in my file. And to see what he thinks of the situation? He is actually a good guy, and knows I wanted to get pregnant, as last I saw him I tOld him I wasn’t taking a medication anymore cause you can’t take it while pregnant. This lady obviously made up things due to her negative bias towards me because I didn’t just do what she said at the snap of her fingers. It’s sick…

      • M gibbons: I wouldn’t suggest going without your husband. At the very least you might need a witness & a lot of cops are “cut from the same cloth” as doctors (although their tact is a little more coarse & direct- “ham-fisted,” would probably be a good term). If he has a problem with the ugliness & all that (and I hesitate to say this), try reminding him he’s a guy. Ha Ha- but also seriously.

        Otherwise, your plan sounds good. Are you still looking into birth in other countries? It’s left-field, but it IS doable. Just like that scene in Men In Black when he dragged the table over to write on.

        I think people should remember that you don’t necessarily need to drive, you can walk. You don’t necessarily need to walk on the road, you can go through the woods. You don’t necessarily need to walk on the trails in the woods, you can just go across regular ground. didn’t know which reference says it best, but I figure you get what I mean.

    • If there is any other doctor you can go to, you should switch, this person could get you into legal or custody trouble. They sound hostile, with a dangerous agenda, and dishonest. Can your GP refer you to anyone else?

      I would see if you can have that record corrected, and if you can afford it, maybe consult a laywer.

      I am wishing you good luck with this!

      Reply
      • Thank you! I’ll definitely be finding another care provider, trying to find a midwife that my insurance will cover. Don’t care how far I have to go to find someone who will respect me, I won’t be having this happen again even if I have to get up and leave! I’m going to make an appointment with my GP tomorrow to get my record to corrected, and to see what he thinks of this situation. Doubt I’ll be able to go to an OB at this point, far too much distrust in their profession.

33. Why where they telling this to your primary care doc? That should be up to you if you want them to know that stuff. And why were they talking about self breast exams that you didn’t do? That sounds like they were pressing your doc to do breast exams on you or push them on you. Wow.I don’t do self exams any more BC I found a fibro and I’m 30 I went to thever in panic and the doc justvdelt around and said it was a fibro but I could see a obgyn for further tests if I wanted to. No thank you never again for me.

    Reply
    • I have read that it is common for a specialist who wasn’t referred to send letters like this to inform of a shared patient. I’m sure they are usually not full of bullshit like mine was. I do believe she wanted to discredit me to my primary doctor, as I cannot see why he would care about it being planned or unplanned. That is not medically relevant at all. The other comments I could see merit in mentioning, except that they were false. Thankfully my gp doesn’t push any kind of sexual exams, as they well shouldn’t. I’ve never even talked to him about such things!
      Now I’m starting to worry that my pap I didn’t want will come back with abnormal cells, as is common during pregnancy. Then I’ll get told I must have a biopsy, and I will laugh in their face. Even half the doctors in the US won’t do one on a pregnant lady, simple fact is they are dangerous. Then I’ll be going against medical advice, another great reason to steal my baby…

      Reply
      • I heard other country’s do not do paps on pregnant woman for that reason. Hear in the us its part of prenatal care, I have read BC they want to capture woman who don’t have paps when they come in for prenatal care. I can’t tell you how many pregnant woman I know had so called abnormal cells then after pregnancy they go away. They keep woman ignorant to what’s really going on. I damn sure whoulntws would not agree to keep. A local gyn in my area has a add in the phone book saying they do keep as part of abnormal pap smear evaluation.

34. What is she trying to prove? What was her response when you said the exam was rape? And I like to see the look on her face if you tell her your not coming back for more cheek ups. She probly ran off BC she can’t defined the practice of forcing paps for the pill and she felt threatened when you wanted to have your baby elsewhere out of a hospital setting. I remember asking a doctor about side effects of a mead they prescribed me and she got quiet BC she knew I was right and didn’t want to put me off more not taking the meads.

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35. I ment leep not keep. Spell check.

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36. That’s is terrifying, LEEP for everyone! I’ve read comments where pregnant women are asking if it’s safe, tons of women saying if the doctors says so then it must be! Amazing how brainwashed they can be. It only took a few of the opposite stories for me to know the truth. Women scarred so badly they cannot have children, women incontinant or unable to orgasm from the procedure, 18 year olds needlessly getting it only to be infertile after. It just doesn’t make logical sense that a procedure like this would be safe on a pregnant woman. Sure-cut off part of the thing that holds my baby in….

    Reply
    • I have seen it being done on utub. Its horrific and barbaric. The woman was screaming in pain and they tell us its not pi painfull and its minor. Wth.

      Reply
      • I agree, they tell us all these things are not painful, just “uncomfortable”. Cutting part of my sensitive parts off with a hot wire sounds pretty painful! And most of the biopsies they refuse to give pain meds for-sounds like punishment to me…

      • That seems to be part of why doctors make “bad” patients- they know stuff like that is bullshit. Also, it’s TECHNICALLY correct- just like how a gunshot wound can be termed “uncomfortable.”

37. I have found something great I want to share. I am a sufferer of ptsd due to forced and abusive intimate examination. For many years I was unable to get birth control due to doctors refusing it without a pap and pelvic exam. My periods make me so ill I had to become self employed because of needing to miss work two days a month due to agonizing cramps and no birth control to treat them. I started using the HOPE planned parenthood program, which is hormonal options without a pelvic exam. It is a blood pressure test, being weighed, and then a doctor has a talk with me tries to pressure me to take a pap and pelvic exam for a while, but I say no and still get the pills. This is still kind of traumatic, having this long conversation with them about what they want to do to me, so I tried something else which is Kwikmed online pharmacy out of utah. It is a group of doctors in utah who will email with you and write a prescription and then send you birth control. They sent me an email saying I should talk to my regular doctor about my need for a pap smear but that was it, less pressure or conversation than any other option. I think this Kwikmed place is my best find in my quest to avoid forced paps or exams, and still get birth control, so I just want to share.

    Reply
    • There is also a post on this blog mentioning how women can buy pills online (if that makes it’s easier as it’d make that whole pap smear conversation completely redundant). There’s also been mention of women travelling to Mexico to buy their pills there.
      It shows that on some level, there must be some awareness of this coercion due to the totally irrational obsessions with “paps” and “pelvics”. As women, we DO have a legal right to consent to or refuse medical procedures. It’s just that those rights must be rigorously enforced for them to have any effect, which is why these doctors are so persistent and coercive. Doesn’t justify their behaviour – they need to be called up on it, but these tactics will only stop when more and more women stand up to them.

      Reply
    • Interesting find!

      Apocalyptic Queen: Keep in mind that legal rights can always be a tricky thing. There’s plenty capacity for someone to change laws or simply do a “regulatory capture” (where the people in charge of quality control are cut from the same cloth or get paid off). It’s about making the conditions not be a certain way. I hate to say it, but given how things are going in this country (dictatorial conduct, the aggressor playing victim when resisted or when they get themselves hurt, acting like a public “supervisor”), it might have to turn into a violent thing like it should have been in Romania when Causescu was in command.

      Reply
38. Has anyone heard of the TV show “Jane the vergin? She was impregnated instead of given a pap smear.

    Reply
    • ??? You mean like medically? They just up & artificially impregnated her? That’s a fucked-up show, if true.

      Reply
      • The premise of this show is horrifying. A woman who is a virgin goes in for a “check up” (I am going to guess she was an asymptomatic virgin – so her doctor was not up to date on the conclusion that asymptomatic women do not need pelvic exams and virgins do not need pap smears) and the doctor accidentally inseminates her (how the Hell could THAT happen? What is exactly was this doctor DOING? I haven’t seen the show…perhaps she got Jane and another patient mixed up?) This is yet another way to turn womens exams into comedy and a continued attempt to normalize them.

        These exams are not “sexual” but premises such as these sexualize them by turning them into comedy. In my brain I see people saying “tee hee hee” as they hide behind their hands talking to their friends about the funny virgin getting a check up and getting pregnant.

        I refuse to watch any part of the show because I find it revolting. So if any of my comments were inaccurate, anyone who has seen it can feel free to correct me. As for now – scuse me while I either cry or gag…I am not sure which.

39. Yes on the show. I don’t think it based on a true story. It just annoys me how TV has been pushing gyn exams in movies and TV. I think there a hidden agenda.

    Reply
    • That sounds pretty disturbing. Is it a drama or some sick and twisted “comedy”? I have noticed the way American dramas and films “normalise” these gyn procedures as another sort of, “rite of passage”. Over here in Europe, it isn’t recommended to see a gyn unless you have symptoms and unless you pay, you need a referral from the GP. And seeing as these tests are high risk/ low utility, it makes no sense to be rigorously testing asymptomatic women. Doctors should be there to treat those who are in need of medical assistance, not imposing them on those who don’t need them just on the off chance that they “might” or “could” find “something”.

      Reply
      • Where in Europe are you? Is it a typical thing? Outside of Germany, I mean. Seems they like to give orders- suprise, suprise.

      • Alex – UK. I should have stated in my post that bar-Germany, from my own knowledge and from talking to other European women I met while in University, it isn’t generally recommended to see a gyn unless you have symptoms – which makes perfect sense! Germany is similar to the US (from what I’ve heard) and I’m not sure about France really but I’m not aware of countries like those in Scandinavia, the Netherlands, Belgium, UK, Ireland, Switzerland, Spain & Italy recommending enforced gyn procedures. Most of these countries start screening between 25 & 30 (Bulgaria is 31). I’m sure some are even thinking of doing away completely with screening (Switzerland) and most (including Holland, UK, France & Italy) have scaled down by upping screening ages. Overall in Europe, there does seem to be a very slow & gradual move away from population pap testing due to new information being discovered about its efficacy and the ethics of mass screening.

40. Please read through this document about professioanl prenantal psychosexual assessment.
    http://www.gov.pe.ca/photos/original/doh_pnpsychosoc.pd
    This is about assessing whether a woman has been or is being abused, also whether she is abusing drugs or alcohol durimg pregnancy.
    Prenantal assessment might also include health history such as her medical hsitory or family history, if certain prenantal tests for defects should be ordered. What health problems might come up during the pregnancy. Women often need some counselling about nutirtion and what herbal teas, foods, overcounter meds and habits they should avoid or start during pregnancy.

    I do not feel that this forum should be encouraging women not to get prenantal care but rather to help women be aware of what they should expect and what they can refuse or consent to. No one is going to judge or be disappointed if a woman consents to any medical test that she feels informed about and feels she also needs when her doctor recommends it. Often there is just not time to explain why and what is recommmended during medical appointments. Luckily we have the internet to look up these tests.

    Considering that more than half of all pregnancies are unplanned, it is important. This is why the heavy suspicion on the part of the medical field. Plus babies and pregnancy are expensive and tend to cause change and stress in relationships.

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41. Another prenatal assessment form to look at

    Click to access CPSP-Prenatal-Assessment-Tool.pdf

    Notice the types of questions asked. Most middle class and upper class women with planned pregnancies would alugh at the questions.

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    • Wow that’s quite a form to fill out. It reminded me of questions I was asked for my first pregnancy, way back in the 1990’s. One of the questions was “Have you any tattoos?” Now tattoos are hardly relevant to being pregnant, but at the time they wanted to test certain women for HIV, and I believe those who reported having a tattoo had those tests done on them, since they suggested “a lower class of woman with a riskier lifestyle”.
      I think I was also asked if the pregnancy was planned or not too. I took this to mean, that straight after the birth, they would press contraceptive advice onto such women, whose pregnancies were unplanned. It may have changed a lot now. I hope so.

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    • These questionnaires are very interesting, some of the questions are so obvious only a stupid person would answer them incorrectly knowing they would lock her up or take her children if she answered them truthfully if negative. I love how on the one, the “wrong” answers were highlighted. It is unbelievable that we are supposed to trust the doctors 100%, but they can’t trust us enough to take our word when we say we don’t use drugs or have an STD. Of course, with the threat of jail time, what using mother wouldn’t lie? The system is extremely detrimental to women, as if being in jail is a “safe” place to be pregnant! I find it very interesting that pregnant women are drug tested without our consent or even informing us. The ONLY other group of people that is allowed on is PRISONERS! So now we know just how important our rights are once we are a “vessel” for a child…
      I’ve been doing a lot of reading about court ordered medical care during labor. Forcing the mother into a treatment she doesn’t want is always wrong, they would never dare think to do that to a man! And the list of things doctors have done to mothers against their will during labor is shocking. Nurses helping hold you down while the doctor mutilates you, scaring women into whatever they want by threatening the baby, the list goes on and on…

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42. in the us medical care is a factory. its payment , paper work, and a few minutes with the dr.
    they have the mean women at the front , to ward off any one who questions any thing.

    only if you have $$$ and can afford private dr service do you get any decent care.

    i am tried of being treated like a peice of machinary in a factory.

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    • You know, I was just discussing with some people yesterday about how the people at the desk tend to act like assholes VERY frequently- it’s like they pretend they’re “king” when the “king” isn’t around. My uncle was talking to one of his doctor clients (he’s an accountant) & he said to ask his patients what they think of them- that he’d be very suprised.

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      • yes he would be suprised. i am wondering if i am insurance would pay for private dr service. doubt it. i would sure lke to avoid the office bs. i don’t go often and just have script refills.
        i had one women say i could not come back cause i cancelled am apt. i was not sure about the dr. i said nicely i needed to tend to my mom, who is elderly,

        i do feel like i might be black balled from drs offices. had to many bad experiences.
        yes i have dr anxiety but i am not mean,

        do these wimen have dr apts? how are they treated

43. I think they probably have a “member’s club” sort of thing going on- like how cops just know someone else is a cop.

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44. Thank you for this article. Cervical cancer is a very rare condition, on par with male breast cancer, and has a median age of onset of 47. However, my mother made me undergo a pap smear when she found out I was sexually active at 16 (which I still maintain was none of her business). Even then I knew I wasn’t at risk for cervical cancer–I’d only had sex once, and with a condom–but my consent meant nothing to the doctor. I remember the experience vividly, and the feeling of lube on my underwear afterward. I thought I had been molested. I also remember hiding the medical bill from my father so he wouldn’t know I’d had this shameful thing done to me (for no reason!), though the doctor’s office sent another bill and he did find out, much to my mortification. I still think about these experiences and it’s been over a decade.

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    • Did your father flip out on your mother? If my woman pulled some shit like that with my daughter, I’d toss her out into the street. It’s not really any different from her doing these actions herself & if a FATHER did something like that everyone would probably say so. Not to rub it in your face or anything, but an interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack. When it’s don’t using medical methodologies, it’s an iatrogenic attack- whether they affirm this or not.

      Even if it was more common & was picked-up from having sex, something doesn’t have to be useless to be a problem. I’d definitely think that this is not a normal interaction to be having with someone you’re not “like that” with (whether recreationally or seriously). As far as things go, it’s like the Borg Collective from Star Trek. What I mean is that they figure that what comes from them is an “A” & what comes from you is a “B,” at best- and that because of this, what comes from them overrides what comes from you. Like usurpation is a part of being superior (a questionable thing to begin with).

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      • Meant to say “done” up top & was referencing cervical cancer below (or anything else, really).

      • No, my father just paid the bill. Most men, like most women, are brainwashed by this system. “Leave it to the professionals” seems to be the mantra.

    • it shulnt matter what the mother wants. doctors should not touch a girl with out her concent.

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45. i can relate my mom took me too had no ida of what was going on. didn’t have the exam said said i was nervous. that yrs yrs and yrs of gn suffering NEVER AGAIN! LEAVE ME ALONE!
    med asistants ar just bad, treating you like crap if you say no pap test!

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46. I recently came across this about women in the military in Indonesia:
    http://t.co/mD8EX1vAXZ:

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    • I bet on anything this will elicit the usual islam-bashing. When they do it in the USA or Germany it is called medical care, and it is of course essential and so on, when in Indonesia it is a barbaric violation. In the west the policemen and the military are in our heads, and we should be dragging ourselves along to violations, whilst feeling responsible and enlightened.

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47. They mentioned these sorts of things for men a while back (a homosexuality thing). They outright called it an abuse in that case (actually using the word “rape”). It’s interesting that reality only applies to the “dirtier” countries.

    What else is weird is that they’re wondering “if you let someone do these types of things to you” as a moral concern.

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48. I have never felt as if I have been forced into a gyn exam, but have felt traumatized by being misled about the discomfort of exams. The worst was having an HSG procedure while being evaluated for infertility. The doctor assured me that it would not be painful…well it was a total lie. Having had nothing other than a Motrin (to prevent what I was told could possibly be some mild cramping), I experienced a nightmare of a procedure. To start, she inserted a very large speculum, which I wasn’t informed would happen, then she slapped my buttocks repeatedly to try to get me to relax enough for her to be able to spread the speculum. Next she clamped onto my cervix with a tool called a tenaculum…again I had no clue this was going to happen. I screamed in pain and began hyperventilating, meanwhile the Dr. and the tech who were present just kept saying “don’t pass out, don’t pass out”. Next, they inserted a tube through my cervix…again sharp pain, and I began to cry and continued to hyperventilate while they kept saying “don’t pass out, don’t pass out.” Next came what I was told would be the worst part of the procedure, injecting dye into my uterus. However, at this point I felt nothing as I was already in terrible pain. When they were done, again I felt horrible pain as she removed the catheter rapidly. I was shaking by this point and felt so violated. I continued to cry but waited a few minutes to go back to the waiting room because I didn’t want my husband to see what happened. Over the next few weeks I couldn’t be intimate with him because any physical contact made me think of the procedure. Now I’m continuing with fertility treatment and I’m overwhelmed with anxiety. I was scheduled to have a saline sonogram tomorrow, and had to fight with them to prescribe pain medication. Even though they finally agreed to prescribe some medication (Vicodin), I’m so scared that I just called and re-scheduled. Something needs to be done to stop such practice. Patients have the right to know that sometimes procedures that are tolerated well by some can be very painful for others. I keep hearing, “most women feel nothing”, or “it’s usually no worse than a PAP.” Well, first off, PAP’s are no walk in the park for some of us, and I really don’t care what “most women” experience. I’m telling them I don’t tolerate these procedures well! I’m tired of being dismissed, and now I’m so afraid that investing in the IVF treatment I need is going to lead to more trauma, or that I’ll make a large financial investment and not be able to complete the whole process.

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    • Tee, that sounds like a nightmare.
      I cannot understand why they put women through these procedures without adequate pain relief. Is it the idea that childbirth is painful, so we need to toughen up and get used to it?
      We have effective pain relief these days, so it should be used, and offered in the case of childbirth, I know some women want to try natural childbirth.

      I know you probably don’t want to make waves, but at some stage, think about sending a letter of complaint and even send a copy to the Medical Association. Let them know what you were put through, all so unnecessary. I’d also, spread the word, so other women know that it’s not going to be a minor and painless procedure.

      So often women are TOLD, “it’s minor”…”just uncomfortable” etc. so women often feel like drama queens if they find the procedure painful or intolerable. They have no right to tell us how we should feel or judge us if we find something painful…they MUST know many women find these procedures distressing and painful. (“don’t pass out!”…)
      So I can only assume they don’t care, it’s easier for them.

      How dare they adopt a cavalier attitude? But then that appears to be the attitude we see over and over again when it comes to the female body.
      Also, it was clear shortly after they started the procedure that you were in pain, they should have stopped and offered you pain relief…to either continue that day or on another day.
      It’s shocking that most cervical biopsies are unnecessary, performed on HPV- women…and with no pain control, so suppose I shouldn’t be surprised nothing better is offered when the procedure might be necessary.

      I’ve heard enough about IVF and fertility treatments to know it’s no walk in the park, some women find it a real ordeal, the only thing driving them is their strong desire to have a child.
      I wonder whether you could see the doctor who carried out this procedure, tell her how the experience has almost put you off going forward with the treatment, can you trust them in future when they say something will not be painful? etc. This would only work if you feel comfortable with the doctor, I sometimes think a direct approach is best, it might make the doctor stop and think about her conduct. Some doctors don’t view us as people, just bodies or the procedure at 2pm, it can help to remind them you’re a human being who found the recent procedure a distressing ordeal.

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    • Holy shit! The woman slapping your ass is a weird thing, but so is sexually torturing someone. They should have desisted & offered pain medication if you wanted to continue at all. Instead of saying “don’t pass out” from pain that’s evidently intense enough to generate that effect in this case.

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    • Omg if they had to tell woman not to pass out there is something way wrong with that. I think every thing about gynecology is disrespectful of woman.

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      • i agree gyno is abusive to women

49. This might sound weird but I want my vagina to stay tight for my futhcer lover. I don’t want doctors shoving speculums in side me stretching me out. Hell no they can take a hike.

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50. Wow just wow. Has an one hear seen the news? It was on national news a class was forcing the girls to have vaginal exams infrount of there peers. If they refused they were being told they should fail there class. The news lady said” Is this against the law.”. I just saw it briefly . I’m wondering has any other Americans on hear seen the fool story?

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    • Didn’t see or hear about that one. Where was this?

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    • Just looked it up & it was suprising. I wouldn’t doubt that they’d do the same thing in a teenage health class. Or younger, to be honest.

      One thing, though (and I know this sounds ruthless): Maybe there’ll be more terming an attack as one & maybe less of them pulling shit like this on patients. not for nothing, but it stands to reason that someone like this will turn on “their own” eventually.

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      • stll cant belve only two grls were agnst t. that was rape.

51. Ok I just found out t was a collage ultra sound class and they were tellng the grls they had to allow vagnal ultrasounds or there grades whould suffer. sounds le the two that challanged one the case.

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52. the two also were told if they didnt allow the class to practive vultrasounds on them t could also effect them getng a job.

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    • Here’s a link to the story about Valencia College in Orlando forcing medical students to have vaginal examinations. Horrible!
      http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/us-college-forced-medical-students-to-have-vaginal-examinations-10262436.html

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      • Si, a good find this one and I noticed that there were 3 other articles on the same theme attached to it. One from 1994 was about patients being asked for permission first if students could be present at the operation and allowed to do vaginals on the anaesthetised woman. I had my operation in 2014, and I was asked minutes before going into theatre if I minded, the nurse saying “they are all girls, and they are already in there.”
        If I’d said no, would the surgeon have told them all to look the other way, or go for a coffee and come back in half an hour?
        I felt I had no choice, and deeply regret not making a stand, but it is very difficult when you are just about to go under the anaesthetic. It upsets me just thinking about what went on during this operation, and also thinking that this article was written in 1994, and 20 years later they are still getting away with treating women like crap.

53. My crazy computer jumps jumbles my letters up so I can’t type what I want. My son was born in October. I feel so humiliated, violated, and feel dirty and flawed. I can’t make love without reliving it. My husband is so brain washed by the whole system and believes they do is right. He won’t listen to how I feel without defending them. He won’t listen to what I have learned on this site and other. He says I never should have gotten pregnant if that is how I would feel. It doesn’t seem fair to choose between having a baby and feeling like this. We know a couple that are expecting. Iple u was joking and said a couple more kids and we would be caught up. He told me that wouldn’t happen because I don’t like going to the doctor. What a slap in my face! I am in so much despair because of the experience and his lack of sympathany and compassion. Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestions?

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    • Laurie: You’re completely right about things- properties don’t change by designation, just like how it’s still murder if a doctor poisons someone with a needle. Iatrogenic attack gets disqualified quite frequently, which basically amounts to reasoning that what happens is not what occurs.

      An interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack & it doesn’t strictly HAVE to be imposed to be a problem. Even as a means to an end, somethng can have a problematic methodology. That said, some things aren’t even a means to an end, anyway. They are held to be, but they don’t actually do these things & sometimes cause problems.

      Try telling your husband these things in this way (or close enough to it). Maybe adding in “Well, supposing someone tried to aggressively fag-out on you?”

      Don’t know what he specifically says is okay, so there’s a limit to what I can suggest to you.

      A point that I notice a lot is that someone will often reference that the people doing these things are the same gender as the one they are doing these things to. By that reasoning, whatever happens between two (or more) guys in a prison cell is okay. Same with whatever those Catholic priests did to those little boys. I guess if it were nuns & little girls, it would all be perfectly fine? All nonsense. For one thing, gratification is only an accentuating factor- if a woman ran another woman over with her car, it would still be an attack. This is whether or not she derived any gratification from it- which she very well may, as some people have warped tastes. There’s people that get aroused by lying, stealing, or even killing people- so it stands to reason that this can extend to having a taste for compulsion & that this could extend across whatever genders are involved. That, and someone can always have a graviatation toward people of their own gender.

      Since there exists disparity between people, it also doesn’t make sense to think that someone doing something to a person with a similar anatomical configuration is the same thing as doing these things to themselves. There isn’t the same instance of person, even with identical twins. It seems considereably more common with things involving women than men.

      At this point, the only other things I can think to say are that an action has to be ENGAGED in order to occur- so it doesn’t just HAPPEN with pregnancy & childbirth. It gets DONE. It’s an INTERJECTED action. I’d imagine if somoene said that getting beat by your husband was just a part of being married, similar observations would be made. Most likely nobody would maintain that it’s not an attack if you get hit with the right hand as opposed to the left or that you have less of a broken jaw if he used an open hand.

      Another thing is that coerced participation makes any affront worse. Presenting assaultive things as something other than that is also something that “twists the knife.” It’s like someone is going to the extent of saying reality takes a coffee break for the people that did it in order to present a problem as something better than it is. It extols a negative by presenting it as neutral (or positive, which also happens).

      Don’t know if I should say this, but it seems like your husband doesn’t really give a shit. You know him better than me, but even though some men have a situation where some things don’t make the “problem bin” mentally, I’d think this would point out that it should be added.

      Not to make it out to be innocent, but omething I’ve noticed is that incongruency obstructs orientation. Just like with camouflage- a person is not green, so someone painting themselves that color makes it harder for someone else to “lock-on” to them. I figure it works that way with problems & attacks that don’t match up with the cliche. It doesn’t fit the conventional image or whatever situation, so it doesn’t register. This can apply to the person these things happen to, as well.

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    • I think its hard for men to understand how a woman whould feel .

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54. You are not alone Laurie. We are here for you as you have found a woman friendly site. Firstly and most importantly your new baby is a wonderful life that had been given to you and you should treasure her/him beyond life itself. I for one congratulate you and I’m sure the others will too once they read your post. All of us here are on your side

    Many, many women too many to number are victims of an uncaring medical profession. We feel violated and used. I personally am taking on the NHS legally as I feel that I have been raped by them a total of 7 times.

    Do they do it on purpose or are many who work there victims too? We don’t know only that in future you need to be able to protect yourself. Which from now on you will be able to do. I am 50 year old woman who has only just realised I actually own my body. Read over the posts and grow in confidence about how the medical profession behaves and arm yourself to deal with them from now on. Knowledge is power. You don’t need to start fighting with anyone just be confident in your dealings and this act will transmit itself to doctors and nurses who actually shy away from confident women.

    As for your husband – remember he is a victim too. You don’t need to have conflict especially right now. Men sometimes take a while longer to see truths. Don’t engage anyone in your new found fight just bask in your inner new found assurance about yourself.

    I am on this site everyday and so are the others. Sound of your anger here. Don’t bother yet with other in your life. You are not that strong yet to take them on.

    Best Wishes

    Linda xx

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55. I didn’t know where to post this but, does anyone know what health insurances that do not push physicals. Also does blue cross require people to sign on with a doctor? I’m just concerned and want to know my options. I refuse to be pushed to have paps.

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56. Thank you for the comments:) I get so tired of people saying it is just a job to them! Well, it is still my body and my private area. I think that is part of the problem. It is just a job to them, so they forget that the person they are examining in an intimate way has feelings or they just don’t care. I’ve through the whole hpv scare. I had my daughter when I was 26. Other than that I never went regularly. When, I was 30, I decided to be “grown up” and go. Of course, they found abnormal cells, and I had to go back every 6 months. I never had the LEEP, but a friend said it was horrible. I was scared to death. The doctor told me to stay away from cigeratte smoke. The couple in the apartment next to me smoked, and the smell would go through the vents into my apartment. I could just picture the cancer growing. I hadn’t decided if I wanted another baby because of childbirth. I was scared that I would have a hysterectomy and not get the chance to make that choice. My doctor was so creepy too. I live in a small town where everyone know everybody. He got all in my love life wanting to know was I dating, We went to the same gym and asked if I was still seeing a guy from the gym. I needed to hurry up and find someone to have a baby if I wanted one because after 35 it was high risk. One time he was examing me, and he told me that I had gotten in better shape since last time! How would he even remember?! Well, I had my son in October on my daughter’s bday exactly 2 months before I was 35, which I think was cool. When I was pregnant with him, I fell at 29 weeks on my stomach. The same creepy doctor comes in to discharge me and tells me he didn’t know I was pregnant, and it was about time! lol Every time my husband would go with me to the doctor, my blood pressure was so high because of nerves. I was so embarrassed for him to be there. I didn’t tell any body why I was so anxious. One time they were going to put me on bed rest. What bothers me a lot from my childbirth is that it was bad enough to get vaginandal exams, this nurse that examined me twice, rubbed my labia and clitoris. It may sound crazy, but it bothers me soo much. After delivery, they had me try to go to the bathroom. It takes me 10 min to go anyway, and they just there and watched me! Who could go with someone watching?! So, they put the catheter back. More violation, possible needlessly. This one doctor that made rounds also made rounds with my daughter. Both times, he just grabs my breasts to examine them and doesn’t tell me he is going to. I was so embarrassed this time with my husband there!. Well, the creepy doctor I mentioned before delivered my son, so I had to see him for postpartum visit. He asked if my husband and I had had sex? Had he chased me all over the house for it? What did we use for birth control? Then he gives me a pack of lube because he decides I am probably dry because it feels funny there to have sex. Well, these are just some of my experiences. I wish that I knew how more women could be helped or this whole this stopped. It is ridiculous that women have to live like this

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    • Laurie: Why not just have children naturally? You seem to have a hemmed-in situation & the doctors are (in this part of the world) unofficially are seen as better than other people. Of course, this insta-approval & blind trust creates a major blind spot as far as quality control goes, as well as recognizing risk. Someone being too arrogant to catch their own mistakes is an issue, too.

      Personally, I think people here kiss ass because they figure they’re going to get some mystical ability to stave off death & medical problems by approving of the doctor- like how they figure they’re “one of them” if they support the military & will be able to do at least some of what they figure the soldiers can do because of that. Like a salute from a sniper is going to make them a better shot.

      There is a lot of what I’ve heard called “thinking by analogy.” It’s type of thinking that says that whatever a priest does isn’t wrong or that wearing someone else’s clothes will give you their abilities. Maybe it’s technically “thinking by analogous circumstances,” but either way- it tends to happen a lot here & is a big part of that cultural blindspot to iatrogenic attack of all forms.

      To better explain what I said earlier: I figure that, in a knee-jerk way, people figure that approving of whoever it is will somehow make them more like these people & thus put them in their position. Trying to harmonize themselves into being able to do what they associate these other people with.

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    • Hi Laurie. Now you have seen the light you don’t have to live in this way anymore. This doc is a creep and needs reporting. If you cant do that just keep away. As for the other woman i’m afraid you have been sexually assualted but it will be difficult to prove. Both Ada another lady who posts and myself have both had our clits felt by women. Protect yourself and just say No to disrespectful treatment. Only permit intimate exams if you think there is something wrong but under no other circumstances.

      No one else in life can do this for you. The strength has to come from within. If we were all we would accompany you at all times as your advocate but we cant. What you can do is imagine we are all there with you – what would we say, what would we do. I would just laugh and say you want to stick what where. Eliz would give them a lecture, Ada would show them some latest research she had found, ALex might even start a fight. We are all different.

      Look on the internet for alternative cures for things. Dont just rely on docs for your welfare. There was a time when we consulted the local wise woman if something was wrong so why these leeches and suppository merchants gained so much power over us I will never know. Become your own wise woman. All woman and some men intuitively know what is wrong with them and treat problems naturally. If there is something wrong with your kids or husband dont always assume the docs have the answer and go racing off to see one.

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      • Thank you Linda! I helps to know other people understand:)

57. They don’t have too. I’m 30 And never been to a gyn. You can also get prenatal care from a midwife. You don’t have to force your self to go. And cc is uncomob HPV does not mean you will get cancer. They over do it to make money scare woman.

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58. I live in a very conservative area. I’m really not sure what birth options are available here because everyone just automatically has a hospital birth. I have learned some about other options since having my son. If I ever have another baby I will definitely be checking into what options that I have available. As far as hpv, I was under the impression that you were a carrier forever of it and the infection could always come back. To me, it wa kind of a stigma. I mean, how do you get married and is it fair to possibly pass this on? I didn’t know if and when to tell him. It’s not something you talk about on a first date. I remember when the nurse first called me to tell me I had abnormal cells. She was so solemn, and said that that I had precancerous cells that had a good chance of turning into cancer. Of course that is scary if you don’t have all the facts. I asked a doctor in the beginning of my pregnancy if it would harm my baby. She said no that it rarely caused cancer and if it did it would take like 10 years. I was relieved but aggravated because I had spent so much time and energy worrying. She did say that it was women who don’t come regularly for paps that are at greatest risk. I guess they have to throw that in there to get you back.

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    • Laurie, nearly ALL young women have HPV now because of the vaccination programme. In UK I think nearly 90% of women 25 and under have had the jabs, so nearly everyone has it now. I often wonder what this will mean for the future, if the virus can come back, when a woman’s immune system is compromised.
      I loved it that your kids were born on the same day. So many cards and presents! You’ll be broke that month!

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      • I know its crazy! they were due a day apart, but who would have guessed the same day?!What’s even crazier is that my husband and I have the same birthday also:)

      • Congratulations all round!

    • I think its all a scam . they mislead woman or they whoulnt agree to have there cervix mutilated if they told the truth. I read about woman bringing the factsvup to doctors and thin the doctors clam up and turn red. There hiding and misleading.

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59. Alex, what you are saying makes sense. And, it is scare how much trust people will put ina doctor not fully having all of the facts.

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60. I feel for you, Laurie!! I told my Doctor last visit that I’m no longer going to participate in annual pap exams for the sake of staying on it. There would need to be good reason to get any exam like that, and she accepted that.

    One possibility of having your stuff rubbed (Aside from them being perverts) is the ladies could have been clumsy handed students who either didn’t want to admit or or were told NOT to admit it. In some students’ minds it is more opportune to just try to sneak in their ‘practice’ instead of earnestly ask to practice their growing skills. In fact after my daughter was born they were religiously taking heel sticks from her every 3 hours to make sure her blood sugar was okay, not sure why it took two of them to draw from one little newborn, and why it took 20 minutes for them to get a full stick only for it to have an air bubble in the tube it and mess up the machine so they had to try again! I finally snapped at both young ladies and asked if they were students, all the medical staff present then just kinda looked startled like a deer in headlights. They stuttered around telling me no, and I said I don’t appreciate them practicing on my newborn when there’s no necessity for the heel stick, and they tried to recover saying “Well if you just use the supplemental donor milk we won’t do it again.” I was lucky I was successful at breastfeeding with their meddling.

    As for the men doing weird things like boob grabbing, you don’t grab the breasts to examine them for lumps, they weren’t giving you a proper breast exam and I hate to say it but they probably are just coping a feel. Men who feel entitled to the female body, doctor or not just figure “They’re there so why not!” because opportunity presents itself.

    It’s easy to let doctors do as they please to you though. There are many natural remedies, yes, but doctors do possess life giving tools and knowledge as well. The fact that they are not policed by the people is one problem, the other problem is they are able to hold our health care hostage if something is serious enough to need them. The Hippocratic Oath is supposed to say they do not do things for personal gain. In other words don’t over treat, misdiagnose, or intimidate and scare a patient to do as you please just because it gives you some benefit be it financial, sexual, or any other weirdness they wanna feed including ego strokes and power trips.

    If I ever have another baby again it will be at home, I had a CNM for my daughter (Who I took a swing at during labor!) but anymore many of them are just as medical and unnatural in their approach as doctors. There is a neat little site I found about Unassisted Childbirth here:

    http://www.unassistedchildbirth.com/is-uc-legal/

    It’s just a cultural belief that pregnant women are in danger of some how spontaneously dying every time we give birth, even though humanity became the most successful species on the planet long before birth went to the hospitals. It’s also another belief that not many women can successfully breastfeed, in which case we would have never had a fighting chance in hell as a whole. It’s also another cultural belief that newborns need medical care even if there is nothing wrong with them! Most people in medicine, and even government offices where you get birth certificates either know or don’t know if UC is legal, but will always try to convince you that it is illegal, because they see giving birth at home as an attempt at suicide to yourself or homicide of the infant.

    What do these things have in common, money and power. Power to monitor early human development from the womb and on by collecting statistical data which many women have to consent to giving to get healthcare. Most women are unaware that every prenatal check up is just drops in this bucket of statistical data. Imposing tests that are unnecessary all under the pretenses of keeping you and your unborn healthy. Money from just catching or cutting a baby out of a woman. Don’t get me started on the rumors both first hand and on the web about the placenta and the umbilical cord afterward, they can say what they want on paper, but stem cells in that cord blood are too precious and worth too much to just throw out. Just Google about selling the placenta and cord blood would yield many frightening things. The Business of Being Born was pretty eye opening to me about getting the hell out of the hospital for childbirth and how home birth is superior. Money invested in formula companies keeps hospitals passively pushing it despite saying they ‘support your choice to breastfeed’, the only people who want you to successfully breastfeed would be a WIC office so they don’t have to buy the insanely expensive stuff! A documentary called Breast Milk was pretty informative about how-not-scarce breast milk really is.The female body and what comes out of it is a hot commodity for profit isn’t it!?

    As for your boyfriend/husband or whatever he is. I wouldn’t bother trying to ‘enlighten’ him. To by pass all these profit snares as a pregnant woman you have to have faith in your body and it’s natural capabilities. I’ve talked to guys that swear up and down that a hospital is needed to give birth, they’re more resistant than when I’ve tried to tell women about the dangers a hospital presents in childbirth. They always fall back on the very hostile defense that it’s their offspring, which totally puts their lover/mate/wife in a position to be nothing but a fleshy baby container whose feelings they aren’t even concerned for. My hubby thought I needed a hospital with our daughter, half way through my pregnancy he said he was sorry he didn’t have faith in me and my body cause he was sensitive and compassionate enough to know it was being a detriment to my prenatal health. If he continued to try convincing me to blindly trust the hospital due to his lack of faith and fear, I’d probably have left him before giving birth. Most reasons to go to the hospital for childbirth are grown from fear, and the tireless ambitions of all who profit from both moms and babies.

    Reply
    • San: I’ve got to disagree partially- only on the level of not trying to educate the guy on this subject. It actually CAN get through, just don’t presume there’s a uniform consistency with men. Some of them are a bit fucked-up, plenty of those turn into employees of professions where it would be easiest to access people & camouflage harm to them. Especially if it’s phrased for what it is: a subtle attack. Men DO tend to understand things in somewhat more combative terms than women, I’ve noticed. Even in myself- when I was younger, my mother was trying to explain something mathematical to me (something geometry-related, I remember that) & she compared it to a missle trajectory. Saying things like “a gun with no bullets” or “cutting your fingers off for points” tend to soak in a bit more. Don’t try to talk like a drill sergeant or make everything out to be tactical (actually a major point is that a guy that sees everything in life & death terms will likely fuck-up & die when it IS that serious, simply because he doesn’t size things up accurately), but really reference it as an attack using unconventional methods. Don’t get vague about “respect for women” & “empowerment” and all that, because that usually gets absorbed as buzz-word for a lot of guys & frankly comes off like a woman being inexplicably pissy about random things. Like having a chip on her shoulder, more or less.

      Reply
      • San, I think she may have just been clumsy. It makes me upset that she didn’t pay attention. I went through nursing, and got a job in a messed up nursing home for awhile but that’s another story. They had a group of us go in to watch a woman deliver. She was already almost fully dilated when we got there. I wonder if she really wanted us there. If I ever had had to perform exams, I would have been careful. There just seems to be a lack of respect from what I saw. Patient’s preference for gender or anything else for care didn’t seem to be considered. I had a problem doing procedures on patients that I wouldn’t want myself and would bother me. They just don’t seem to get that since they are part of the medical field why would it bother you to have your private parts messed with? My husband and I are both Christians, but different denominations. I started going to his church when we started dating. I miss my denomination, my mom has started going to the only church like that within driving distance for us. But, that nurse attends there. I thought that I could handle it, but I had so much anxiety and creepy feeling being around her. I couldn’t even look at her. So, I wont be going there now. Alex, my husband is difficult to talk to about anything. from this, to our church preferences, to how his son treats my daughter. Maybe I don’t handle things in the right way. He gets angry and says he is tired of talking about it. I wish that he be compassionate because I have been so upset. But, with or without him, I’ve got to deal with it because my kids are growing up fast.

61. Sorry for the long rant, ladies and gents! It’s been over a week since I blew off some steam, and I get sick of how the female body is supposed to be several things all in one (Sexual, Gender neutral, appropriate, inappropriate etc.). All the profit made by it’s ‘health and care’ just feels like some form of coerced prostitution (Since our sexual organs are still involved) in exchange for healthcare and those who profit from it are the pimps! I mean how many centuries are we from the dark ages? It’d be nice to live in a world where those in power don’t behave as if it was last Tuesday!

    Reply
    • No need to apologize San, we all feel the same way.
      It’s easy to forget that our body is actually OUR body, no one has a right to touch us without our permission.
      I think because the medical profession ignores informed consent for women, and consent itself is often missing from cervical screening, add on all the unnecessary invasive exams like routine breast and pelvic exams, they forget we’re actually human beings, more than mere bodies. We’re people with feelings and yes, for many/most of us our bodily privacy and autonomy is important. I’ve read so often that women need to get over any feelings of modesty, I couldn’t disagree more, when you take away the excess, MOST of these intrusions on the symptom-free female body are actually unnecessary and cause more harm than good. I often wonder if women who “don’t mind” have been beaten down by the system so they become separate from their body. “I just switch off” is something I’ve heard many times over the years. This might make things easier for doctors, but it’s not good for women.
      Things are starting to change though and as more women come on board…things will change even faster, don’t lose hope.

      Reply
62. the whole gyn profession is crap! they don’t care about women. i have spent yrs and $ 100.00’s of dallors trying o find an anwe to my issue. No pap no help! The issue i can’t have a pap anf pentation hurts. i wish i could file suit against the gyn community for yrs of abuse and suffering!
    no answers the lost of ever feeling love or intimate contact.
    inabliilty to even have friemdships.
    please keep fighting i don’t want others to suffer like i have.
    i have asked for sednation, compassion . answers recieved nothing but another dr bill!

    so much trauama from a profession who is supposd to help.
    i am done trying to find answe what happens now is up to god.

    will anyone ever love me? don’t know

    pleae keep fighting so women aren’t continuing to suffer from these barbaric exams!

    Reply
    • Diane. I hope you are ok. You sound very down. Doctors can not help you at all with your situation. To continue going to them is a waste of your money and time. And at this low point they will make it worse. I feel your healing must come from within now. You must become your own ‘wise woman.’ Read spiritual book not necessarily Christian ones. You must learn to relax and enjoy your life. We will only be on this world the one time. You will find love again and there will be intimacy.

      Reply
      • i am okay i am done with DR. you got it! waste of money and time!
        i am moving on they have done enough damage.

        thanks
        diane

    • Why can’t you have friendships?

      Reply
      • i am not sure . i’m a bit shy women tend to ake advantage. its something I struggle with

63. I can really associate with this post having had my first smear/pap test yesterday which was very painful. I have never had anything like it happen before in my life. Yes it was embarrasing and invasive (which is why I delayed 10 years) but it’s the pain i will always remember. It’s all I think about every waking minute since, I relive the exact point of pain when the nurse scraped to take the sample, over and over I feel the pain and relive those seconds like a broken record, and the sting I am still feeling a day after the procedure doesn’t help me forget. Unlike any other procedure I have had in my 34 years I feel emotional not so much abused but emotional like you feel like you might have been raped/abused but cant remember so instead you just feel like crying. I haven’t cried but its there in the background lurking most the time, you wouldn’t guess it either I am a big, tall, weight lifting, boxer, girl – we don’t get upset right!. But I know Im going to be walking around for the next week/month however long with this small emotional scar. I think it maybe the powerlessness you feel having someone do that to you, and the risk at the drop of the hat in a couple weeks it may have to be done again no questions asked. Like continually being forced to see or live with your abuser, and having no way out/escape, that then leads to the fear of the event repeating itself.

    Reply
    • Hi Jane. You are very much in my thoughts today. It will take a lot to get over it. I am mad with anger at my treatment by the NHS. I keep remebering mine and apparently some women can actually still feel thd pain as if it was yesterday. Its so very sad the system is traumatizing us. And in our most special place as well. My heart is breaking for you as it does for all women who are forced into having these tests. If you work please pass this site to your colleagues by first getting them to open up about their experience. This site and others are saving women every day. Since i joined in March at least one or two women find us a week and thats just the ones we know about who post lile you. I bet many don’t post but just read. Thank God for the internet. Because you are a woman Jane you are strong and beautiful that can never be taken from you.

      Reply
      • Exactly Jane, I’m quite new here too and haven’t smeared in 15 years. You don’t ever have to do it again, and we’re all here for you x

      • Thank you Linda I am still sore, it has changed to mainly sore round the whole area now, so painful to wipe after toliet etc and sometimes to sit for long. Had terrible lower stomach pain too today hard to stand for long but that might be something else. Overall I am still worried because now I went for the test I feel trapped in the system, I hope the result comes back with good news in 2 weeks so I can just forget it all forever and move on. If the result says something else I have to fight for my rights to not be abused further and/or be given further tests when I may very likely never get cc. Yes I have always been against smears due purely the invasive nature but all the info on the site about the inaccurate rates and statistics and over testing etc, it is all very new to me, I beleive what I have been reading and seem to understand the arguments but faced with my first result letter I might struggle to ignore the shit the nhs writes. I might have to come on here for support either way. And tell you all what it says and ask what it means. As you say …thank God for the internet! xxx

      • Hi Jane,

        I’m really sorry for what you went through yesterday. You’re not alone in your feelings, and please don’t let anyone invalidate them.

        I also want to reassure you that despite having the pap, you’re not trapped in the system. You have the legal right to refuse ANY treatment or tests that you don’t want, and if you are in a country where they send you “invitations” for paps, you have the right to opt out of that. You have every right to tell the doctor that you don’t want to ever have that test again, to change doctors, etc. And we are all here to support you, no matter what you choose.

      • Thank you Kat and diane xxx

      • Hi I don’t know if I will br successful in posting this – tried yesterday and it vanished!!! If it does , I wondered if you would be interested in including my story in your book. It is very grim . Will post again if this goes through. I am from the UK
        Laila

    • Hello Jane, I’m Ada from the UK and I had my last tortuous smear in 1997, which was forced on me without warning at a postnatal checkup in that year. Just remember seeing a huge metal speculum (or was it a crowbar?) forcing my body apart. Just thinking about it all these years later is enough to make me weep. Last year I had a total hysterectomy for endometrial cancer. Physically I am well, but the emotional scars are taking a lot longer to heal. The ladies on this site keep me going. Just hearing that another person has joined us is always a pleasure. This is such an amazing site. I have often thought of doing a site for the UK, but don’t think it would ever be as good as this one.

      Linda – did you ever get your weebly site up and running?

      Reply
      • Hello 🙂 X

      • Hi Ada. I am really getting on with my book at the moment which I will put on Kindle in August. When that is done I will put a link to a Weebly site I will create. My book is a mixture of things that happened with smears and research I have basically robbed of the Internet, changed a bit and attributed the idea to the original author. (I am not an academic but i think that’s all they do anyway. It’s all I did when I was doing my degree!!!) I have also provided links to further reseach and also to sites where women leave horrific accounts of what happened to them.

        The whole thing will be a horrible gritty detailed expose which is what is needed. If anyone from the NHS reads it I’m sure there will be repucussions. John has told me not to use my married name so I am going to use my initials and my maiden name. I will let you know when its finished.

        You also have an interesting story to tell – Forced smears while still recovering from birth, and your treatment during cancer. People need to read this stuff but the mainstream will never publish anything like that because it doesn’t fit in with the agenda. If you want any help or guidance writing your own please feel free to ask. Putting stuff on Kindle is so easy and you can write almost anuthing you like.

        I have been reading Germaine Greer’s The Whole Woman. There is a somewhat weak chapter on smears. I’m afraid she is losing the plot a bit it almost seems apologetic to doctors. She used to have ‘teeth’ in the old days now she’s just a broken set of dentures. To fight our fight against all this ridiculous unwanted violation of our beautiful vaginas is a new generation of women with drooling fangs.

        Keep well. X

64. i can relate i have have had alot of issues cause i am small.( but tough) workout too. i have been messed with like you were. i understand your truama. i am done never try an exam again.
    theyhave no idea what they do to women! glad you found us

    diane

    Reply
    • Hi Laila. Yes i would be int in your story. Post it here and i will use either all or some of it. Any info i use ftom here will be given full credit to the owner. X

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65. I am afraid to schedule my daughters for physicals because last time the doctor checked their genitals. They were 6. They are almost 8. Why is that necessary? It was a very quick look but it still made me uncomfortable. And one of the girls was raped by a neighbor boy a year and a half ago. She was in therapy until she got to the point where it seemed she had gotten as far as she could get at her age. It is going to be much harder for her. What do I do as a mom?
    I have a hard time saying that it is ok for a doctor to touch them. Anyone can SAY they’re a doctor.
    I had several exams like that when I was young and cried for days. My mom told me to get over it. The therapist I eventually saw thought I was overreacting. Now I find out that how I felt was valid. It’s bittersweet. I’m still in a quandary about my girls.

    Reply
    • I am 30 and remember my mother took me for a physical when I was nine. And the male pedi lifted up my panties and looked . at that age I didn’t know why. After doing some reading it might be to cheek for signs of abuse . I don’t know. I don’t believe in seeing doctors now unless I’m sick. If it bothers you don’t take them or tell the doctor no if they try to look.

      Reply
    • Well, here’s the long answer:

      Properties don’t change by designation- just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle it’s still murder. That’s true with other things as well, since reality doesn’t take a coffee break for doctors.

      Interfaces with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack & in this case, an iatrogenic attack. I think the best technical way to put it would be “extrapersonal comportment of situation so as to generate visual access to or physical contact with sexual areas.” There’s so many variations that it makes sense to just put it broadly.

      This can coercion (ex: “you don’t get this without that” games with birth control or general treatment), this can be with deception (ex: telling people things are safer & more accurate than they actually are or misrepresenting the risk of the conditions these “diagnostic measures” are in relation to), this can be with threats of various kinds or outright physical force (ex: delivery room or simply taking liberties while someone is unconscious). All these are things you need to mention to your daughters as much as watching their drink or being selective with who they get in the car with.

      You definitely shouldn’t teach them that bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness are immature or defective traits, which it seems a lot of mothers teach either directly or indirectly. Same with conveying that it’s stupid to “think compositionally” (that a situation is what it consists of). I imagine you wouldn’t outright say any of these things, but a lot of arguments basically amount to this.

      Anyone telling them that it’s okay for a doctor (or anyone else) to touch them is an issue, since it sets in a concept of excision of consent.

      Another problem is that it’s basically making the point that something ceases to exist, despite its existANCE. They have an issue with something, but someone is telling them (counterfactually) that this is not the case.

      I would say you should be there for all the physicals, just to stop the doctor or nurse if they try to do something. Something to be aware of is that they sometimes DO spring things on kids in school (look up “Stroudsburg, PA pelvic exams in school” for an example). The best idea, especially if you’re all thinking of continuing to live in this country, is to foster an intense self-determination in your daughters. “Teaching them to fish,” figuratively speaking. Like the idea of women’s self-defense courses & this is why I strongly believe that there should be extensive discussion on unconventional attack (cops, doctors, etc…) in women’s self-defense courses. Not only because an issue can come from that direction, but also because there’s a decently high chance that they’d wind up dealing with these people if someone attempted a conventional attack (ex: she gets hurt fighting off a rapist or maybe she’s fine, then they try to get her to the hospital anyway, maybe they try to force a rape kit on her- maybe saying that “they have to, because sometimes people lie about what happened to them”).

      Speaking of which, it might not be a good idea to even hang around if she does defend herself, since plenty of police responses involve imposed nudity and/or imposed penetration. The course of sorting things out can run along the same lines as what someone defended themselves from or what they’d, theoretically, call the cops about. Just figured I should mention that point, since things are getting increasingly menacing that way in this country & the cops are frequently acting in a manner that is totally incongruent to the situation (maybe BECAUSE it’s incongruent to the situation- someone not doing something attackworthy isn’;t going to BLOCK their attack). That or they just instigate, because that can come from them too.

      Reply
      • Forgot to mention that teaching self-care is a great idea. Rosemary Gladstar’s a good place to start (even has a book titled “Herbal Healing For Women” & has a website).

    • Thats truly sick and unnecessary. Surely any major genital problem would have been noted and possibly treated at birth unless it’s something like a tight foreskin on boys penis??

      Reply
      • The number of children who suffered this just don’t bear thinking about!! Well girl exams? Point less, I’m sure parents look after their girls and get medical help if required!!

66. Do not take your girls to see a doctor again unless they present with symptoms you yourself can’t treat. No one needs to look at anyones genitals to see if they are ok. More and more is coming out about how damaging these visual inspections are. As a good mother you must do everything you can to protect your childrens welfare. It is now coming out just how perverted a lot of doctors are. I realise now the extent to which americans are brainwashed. In uk and europe no doctor would ever bd allowed to look at a childs genitals unless there was a proper medical reason. We simply don’t have these exams.

    Reply
    • Quite right, Linda, we don’t have them in Australia either, they’re called well-child exams and like well-woman exams they are not evidence backed and carry risk from false positives. (not to mention psychological issues)
      I agree, only see a doctor you trust when it’s necessary, check the evidence for yourself Nameless, the well-child exam is not a good idea.
      I think some parent’s feel they should say to their children, it’s okay for a doctor to look at your genitals or touch them, it’s not, these exams require our consent (or the parent’s consent) and there should be a sound medical reason for the exam. (backed by evidence)
      Visual inspections of the genitals are not backed by evidence, almost every routine intrusion on the symptom-free body is unnecessary and simply exposes us to risk.

      I know American gynecologists now want to see girls as young as 12 or 13 for an annual exam. It sounds like this includes a visual check of the genitals, a routine pelvic exam “is usually not required” (I’ve read on ACOG’s website) Well, the evidence says a routine pelvic exam is never required and that these well-girl exams are not backed by evidence and carry risk. I hope parent’s take the time to do some research before putting their daughter’s through these distressing and potentially harmful exams.

      Reply
      • Hi Eliz. Just imagine the horror of having your genitals inspected by some horrible saliva drooling doctor when you were s child. You would never get over it. How can anyone think this is right. Surely we can live our lives without all this intrusion to our private parts. I’m not some weird genital expert but from what i’ve seen in pics they are all different anyway.

67. so sorry about what happened to your little girl nameless. unfortunately it’s all too common. I just hope that between her abuser and the dr she won’t think that she doesn’t get to decide what happens to her body and think that her saying no doesnt mean anything. there’s one thing that I still don’t understand….what’s wrong with a dr just ASKING?? All children from about 4 and up could just be asked “Is everything ok with your girl/boy parts? has anything there been hurting or itching or puffy?” How freakin hard is that?? even the whole ‘check em’ during sports physicals with boys WHY?? A hernia is pretty obvious- no boy is going to miss a suspicious painful bulge in his scrotum or lower abdomen. That’s not an excuse for anyone to grope his privates. and over the age of 4 there’s no need for a dr to just randomly handle a childs genitals when they could just ASK!

    Reply
68. When it happened before it caught me off guard. I wasn’t expecting that and actually I didn’t schedule my other daughter because of it. They check for scoliosis and that kind of thing too so I worry that they should be seen to make sure they are ok otherwise. I just don’t want them to do any kind of genital exam. They take meds and have follow up visits routinely to make sure the meds are not causing problems. I’m ok with that but they mention the well child exam needs to be done at age 8. Since they haven’t had one in so long.

    Reply
    • Just say no. Don’t do anything to harm your precious ones. Too many kids – boys and girls are just being trsumatized by these exams. Its horrible. Don’t go to any doctors just lestn to take care of your kids by info on the internet. Doctors in america are obsessed with childrens genitals. They are bad people. Look at that dentist who goes sround killing animals for fun. You just cant trust anyone.

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69. what I don’t like about the whole genital exams on children thing is that I think it sends the wrong message. We all tell the children we love (even if they’re not ours) that no one has the right to touch them. Small children believe (at least for a little while) pretty much everything theyre told. “No one can touch me if I say no.” and then they get taken to a dr. who (possibly without warning) may pull down their underwear and look/touch them. Did the dr make sure it was okay with them first? probably not. Did the dr or parents ignore/minimize any feelings of fear/discomfort the child had? Possibly. So now the message becomes “everyone says no one can touch me there but the dr did. I didn’t give him permission and he didn’t stop when I got scared. ????”

    every single parenting/child psychology guide lists “stability, routine, established boundaries/behaviors, knowing what to expect etc etc” as one of the most important factors for healthy child development. What do you think this sort of situation does to that concept?? I think a child may it see it as 1. they don’t get to decide what happens to their bodies 2. saying no to someone who tries to touch them doesn’t really mean anything.

    A child (even somewhat older ones) may not register the difference between a dr ignoring/invading their boundaries vs their best friends creepy older brother who says “come play dr with me in my room.” The thought process may be something like “well the dr gets to touch me there whenever he wants so I guess this is kinda the same.” and once creepy bro gets the clothes off if the child feels its wrong and gets frightened do you think he will listen? NO. “Well the last time I was touched there I didn’t want the dr to do it but he didn’t listen so it’s nothing new that this guy isn’t listening to me.” (no doesn’t mean anything/i dont get to decide) and then to make matters worse the child may not tell anyone because to them it was just another dr touching them there and the last time it happened mommy/daddy/dr made them feel wrong/bad for being scared.

    I think genital exams on children- especially forced ones- send am awful message psychologically speaking. If I ever have kids I won’t allow it to be done after the age where they can just be asked if everything is ok. Or if asked I may say something like “It’s not my choice it’s his/hers and you must 1-ask his/her permission 2-explain why you are doing it 3-stop if he/she is upset.” In the case that it does need to be done I think that’s a much better approach then just yanking the undies down with no regard for the childs boundaries. oh how I hate our american medical system.

    Reply
    • i remember being traumatized by drs pulling down my pants as a teen i lied about being sexually active to be left alone.
      i never did get any help with my problem of vaginimous ( tightlng up tying to have sex)
      years and $$$$ of dam attempts with no answers i gave up. i hope you drs are happy causing me no sex life. ) very little with the help of coke)

      i finally gave up! i hope maybe someone will love me as damaged as i am.
      gyn’s can rot in hell

      Reply
    • I have a very early memory of one of these exams, and saying no to the dr. My mother yelled at me, so I had to do it. Possibly why I have always thought of these exams as horrifying intrusions. Your post is absolutely correct!

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70. Hi all. A vagina mad gyno called jans casimir sieski is accused of being an animal serial killer. On his website is feedback on his attempts to force unecessary hystos on women. He is just a butcher of women and animals. He will deff rot in hell.

    Reply
    • Hi Linda,
      Can you provide a link?

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71. Hi Ada i found the comments on this site – before you access it i must warn you may not like it, is is a radical site. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3319807/posts scroll down it is there near the bottom.

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72. Linda it sounds truly awful I’ve not dared go there. Hope you doing Ok. I got a multi vitamin with iron and after 2 weeks rest my legs belong to me again but I still get exhausted. On a positive note I had my bloods done at my surgery today ( which I hate.. Truly terrified of needles!) and no mention of smears!!

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73. Hi Kat. I was wondering how you are doing. Glad your getting treated well and sorting out your migraines. I hope the smear thing has been sorted no one has rung me in ages now and i intend avoiding doctors from now on. I wonder if there are any good respectful doctors out there that buck against the system and do whats best for patients
    Over the past few days my focus has been over the furore on hunting. John says i go from one thing to another as if it was an obsession. But thats how i live my life – i feel deeply about things. I just want to nake the planet a better place.

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    • Thanks Linda. And you do a good job as I’ve said before!!

      Reply
    • Hi Linda,
      There are some decent doctors out there, not that I’ve bumped into any of them (lol!), but this website is worth looking at and good for the soul:
      http://grassrootsgp.org/:

      As Margaret McCartney has said, many GPs hate the GP contract, which they have to work to, and there are many of them who want to see change, especially with regard to screening, as this website makes clear. It is the shit doctors who make the media headlines, but the ones who genuinely do good and respect people are often quietly going about their business as unsung heroes. I’m very touched and moved by the brave souls who soldier on with their good causes despite all the knock backs they take.
      Your John is right. Don’t let these wicked bastards get you down. I’m also very angry about this trophy hunting business, and I’m sure the vast majority of human beings feel the same way about it. Find some good caring people to follow in life, as I find that their wisdom is a great help when things do not appear to be going so well.

      Reply
74. I strongly agree. I have been assaulted, battered and I feel raped by a gynecologist after I politely refused an endometrial biopsy. Offices kept calking me and started sendin me letters. I felt bullied and frightened. In 2011. I went to my regular pcp for a car accident injury. Back and neck pain. During this visit, (moderated, name deleted) nurse no less started asking me about my sex life. I was divorced and I politely but quite embarrassingly told her i had sex once and she offered a pap. I thought this odd as she was not a gyno and NO SYMPTOMS. BUT I FOOLISHLY LET HER. Week later i was told i had hpv. Hence my nightmate began. The harrassing phone calls and frightening conversations about cancer. I had so many questions yet they could not answer them. They told me i HAD to get a colposcopy even tho the disease clears on its own in most cases. I did. Even tho the colposcopy was fine I was repeatedly harassed about pap smears. I was of perimenopause age and periods were skipping so they wanted biopsy. I had no other symptoms yet they would NOT DO BLOODWORK to check hormones. They would only do endometrial biopsy. I was told by (moderated, name deleted) that there is no test for hormones and she can only put me on the pill. I was confused. Time continued to go and my pcp told me to get hormones checked so i called swampscott obgyn AGAIN. THey refused to be my dr saying i missed too many appts A LIE. They kept making appts for me to do a biopsy. I kept telling them no. They ultimately sent me to (moderated, name deleted). Telling me he can check hormones but ONLY IF YOU DOA ROUTINE PAP. I Was desperate for hormone education so i said yes. This Dr (moderated, name deleted) assaulted, battered and raped me. He abruptly entered the room from behind a curtain without knocking before i was done getting undressed. i denied an introduction and told to stop speaking. I was asked the ages, WHEREABOUTS AND WELL BEING OF MY CHILDREN and told to lay back.
    He did full breast exam and within moments of him down there I felt such excruciating pain my body jumped and i was in a sitting position. The dr or the nurse ignored my bodies reaction and i was terrified. They both never looked at my face. I could no longer sit up with speculum inside me and they waited for me to lay back down. I looked to yhis nurse for comfort whike crying with fear and pain and she never once took her eyes off the dr. I felt strange deep scraping and saw large amounts of bulbous tissue pink and with blood traces through it. He dropped it in a cup the nurse was holding. He then stood up and walked very far back to the wall and told me to coughwhile he viewed me from far away. 3 times each time instructing me to do it harder while speculum still in. He told me he was going to do internal exam where i felt pulling down on my organs. I was packed with a gel like substance after.
    The next day I experienced pain in my stomach lower abdomen. A dropping sensation burning enough to double me over in pain. I started bleeding and the pain worsened. Heaviness in my lower abdomen vaginal pain and burning and overall malaise and fatigue. I bled for a about Five days but the pain cramping heaviness burning worsened to an unbearable level. I have been thru mulitiple tests. SOOO MANY PAPS AND CULTURES. This was orchestrated to get me to succumb to that biopsy and get tissue from my body
    Something strange is happening ladies with them wanting tissue from our bodies. This was a violation of my human rights and the NURSE WATCHED AND DID NOTHING. I feel abused , tricked, lied to, bullied, assaulted and raped. I have ptsd and damaged body with pain and discomfort everyday. This has taken a toll on my family. I am single mom with a son with special needs. Please learn from my experience and stay away from the afforementioned practice and GUARD YOUR BODIES. ask questions and report any bullying or strange events during gynecological exams. Too many women are afraid to speak up for themselves. This can happen to anyone including our daughters if we do not fight for our rights.

    Sincerely

    Pamela

    Reply
75. Linda, its Spiritedaway…we have spoken a few times. You welcomed me here with many kind words. i hope you are well and also I hope you use my experience in your book. I would love to talk to you again. I have not been here in a while. Ive been trying to deal with my issues, sometimes its just too hard to talk about. I will do whatever it takes to spread the word of what is happening. For me the bullying and trickery that led up to my assault is mind blowing. Some days Its just too frightening to even think about. I was a completely healthy woman and these Drs. stole something from me. MY LIFE!!! I would be happy to share with you anything you would like to know. Love to hear from you. GOD BLESS!!

    Reply
    • Hi spitit. I’ve been on holiday and haven’t kept up with posts. I think about you and everyone here all the time. I have been posting loads on sites about Cecil. Its time the entire human race decided where we are going. Its no longer about the lion its about all of us. Men,women,black,white,asian,gay,straight,abled,disabled,christian,muslim,jew,non believer – we are all part of a unique system of which there is no other. We need to take care of each other. The murders need to stop,the hate, the sheer disrespect some people have for each other. We want decent access to health care – we don’t want doctors demanding access to our privates all the time, we don’t want young girls being mutilated, we want decent ethical food,we want decent ethical clothes. We want the eco system to be cared for. Its 2015. Its the 21st century. If it doedn’t change now it never will.

      I know i’m ranting but i’m not sorry. Since Feb and all the hassle about smears all the time i have been on a long journey which seems to be unfolding more every day in ways i never expected. I love all of you on this site and feel that you all share my aspiratipns for myself and others.

      Reply
76. 2 good reads here from one of the few human doctors recognising the distress caused by these exams:
    http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1342:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/the-pelvic-examination-put-to-the-test-1.536743

    Reply
    • Hi Adawells. Thanks so much for linking the articles. The link to the BMJ article by Dr. Spence was a great read. Something odd: the first time I clicked on the link I was taken directly to the full article, free of charge. However, the second time I clicked on the same link, the article was no longer free as it had been hidden behind a pay wall. Very frustrating as it’s a brilliant article and worth a post. I was wondering if sending an email to Dr. Spence may be of any use in regards to “freeing” the article. The Irish Times article is also good, but doesn’t have quite the same punch.
      Great effort to all attempting to get comments posted on the NHS choices site.

      Reply
      • Hi Sue,
        There was an email address for Dr Spence at the foot of the article. Did you want me to try and make contact to ask if the article can be used on this site?

      • Hi Adawells. Thanks for the offer to contact Dr. Spence, I appreciate it. However, after reading his replies to comments (which are still available for free viewing on the BMJ site) it appears that he is very much pro-screening of young women for cervical cancer. So unless we were willing to do a bit of educating he probably wouldn’t be all that keen to help us out here. He is at least able to see that pelvic exams are too non-specific to be of any use, and that they cause more harm than good. Plus he is against speculum use overall. Still a great article. Thanks again Adawells.

    • So what did it cover? Did it actually make the point that these are attacks when imposed? I notice a lot of articles & such leave out the concept of iatrogenic attack.

      I also notice that it’s the BRITISH that are making these points, not as much the Americans. Then again, it seems there’s been SOME headway with that (Oregon & California seem to have the pill over the counter now- don’t know what that means for internet orders, though). Speaking of which, is that big news (like EVERYTHING with pot) or is it something on the down-low? I haven’t been reading the paper & have only watched a little news.

      Reply
77. I am so thankful for this site. I know we have al been hurt in one way or another. I was talking to a nurse that works in L&D. She was talking about how women will about climb up the bed when she has to do a cervical check, and she is thinking to herself that she know that woman isn’t a virgin. Well, I have a friend that went to the hospital at 29 weeks after not feeling the baby move. The baby had died. My point is, what if that same nurse showed her compassion and comfort, but went into the next room, performed a vaginal exam, and left the woman traumatized? How the good ob/gyn doctors do outweigh the bad? How can something that can help cause so much pain? Everybody wants to make them out be heroes, but what about those of us that are hurt? These are just things I am dealing with. I can’t seem to get past hurt, humiliation, anger, and embarrassment. When I feel better, something comes along to stir it back up.

    Reply
78. I am so sorry that many of you have been hurt by these procedures.

    My story pales in comparison to many of the stories here. However, I was raised in a very religious home where s_x was not discussed unless the message was “don’t have s_x”. Nevertheless, we were also taught that no one was to touch us there. However, it would be conflicting when we would go to the pediatrician and they would demand for us to be completely naked, even when the treatment did not warrant it, and we would have to sit in front of all of the doctors and nurses that way with our parents simply saying “it’s okay; they are doctors”.

    The extremely religious nature of our home did not allow for the discussion of teenage hormones, so when my sister reached puberty, she started to take it out on me and mildly molested me. i always had on my clothes, but she would still try to touch me through clothes and kiss me. My parents occasionally told her to stop, but ignored it most of the time. I guess they didn’t want to face the possibility of having a bi-s_xual daughter. I guess it was a phase, because she didn’t turn out to be bi-s_xual, but the abuse gave me a heightened sense of awareness about my body. It would make me very upset for anyone to see me naked, even if they walked in by accident. Also, I would dread doctors visits extremely due to the possibility of me having to be naked – not completely understanding that I could refuse.

    Finally, one doctor was doing a chest exam on me for respiratory problems but he kept grabbing my breasts (I was 13). I didn’t like it, but I was afraid to “accuse” him because I thought that there was a chance that this may have been necessary in some strange way, even though I wanted to cry. Afterward, I asked my mother if this was necessary and she said “no, but since you didn’t try to stop him, I guess you must have liked it”. This was a HUGE statement coming from an extremely religious mother, so it made me feel even more ashamed and afraid of having to be undressed in front of a doctor.

    As I became older and understood more about s_x, I decided that no one would ever see me down there again until I was married. It really is a big deal for me. I feel a lot of anxiety and experience anxiety attacks when doctors start discussing these exams as if they are about to force me to get them, especially when they walk in and start getting the speculum ready after I’ve said that I will not have the exam.

    Reply
    • I can understand what you are saying. It is confusing to be told not to let anyone see you or touch, but it is ok for any doctor or nurse to do it. My mom was abused as a child, and was terrified of it happening to me. She became afraid that I had been by some things going on. When I was about 6, I had kidney problems, so the doctor went up through my urethra. I’m not sure if the dr examined me as part of this or to check if had been abused. I remember lying down, and he pulled mu underwear and pantyhose down and examined me without gloves, then he patted me on the leg. When we walked out, it was such creepy, weird feeling. Into adulthood I couldn’t stand pantyhose. My mom cant understand why my birth experience bothers me so much and wonders if I was molested. I talk to her about that experience, which I never had. She told me that she thought I knew if she was there she wouldn’t let anyone hurt me, but, oh, it traumatized me. Whenever asked if I had been molested or I tried to imagine it, that was what came to mind. I’m sorry for what you went through, and it was unfair for your mom to accuse you of enjoying it. I agrre with you so much about what you said in a post about them messing with our sex lives. Keep being strong and fighting against them:) There is a lot of us fighting the same fight

      Reply
    • Your mother who told you never to fight them? That would inform you of their profession as if it somehow cancelled reality? What happens is what occurs & reality doesn’t take a coffee break for doctors.

      Reply
    • Hi Chaste. What your mother allowed is horrible. There is a website called emerging frombroken (all one word) for adults who’s parents very wronly accused them of enjoying sexual contact as children from doctors or otherf adults. Its a betrayal of children which has devestatng effects on peoples lives. The women who runs it was raped by her mothers boyfriend at 13. Her mother accused her of encouraging it ! So she set up this site for adults harmed in this way. I hope you will find peace and love. X

      Reply
79. I have even heard about doctors now trying to force women to breastfeed. Apparently, a woman who had just given birth said that she did not want to breastfeed due to her job and that it would be better for her to just let the milk dry up so that she could go to her job when she recovered. The next day, the doctor walked in with her baby, uncovered the woman, and tried to make the baby “latch on”.

    This is getting ridiculous!

    Reply
80. I have and herd of doctors massaging woman’s breast to see if nipples were tough with out asking. That is wrong. My body belongs to me no woman should have to apologize for bottle feeding her baby. It should be up to the mother.

    Reply
81. I am so relieved to find this site and these articles. I had a couple of painful paps when I was a teenager and they were horrible, even with a female doctor. My most recent pap was two days ago and even though I remembered how awful they were when I was younger, I assumed that as a 27 year old woman I could handle it better now. However I did not take into consideration (nor did the medical staff inquire) that I am now a rape victim, a lesbian who has not been sexually active for 3 years, and I don’t put anything into my vaginal canal, not even tampons because it is uncomfortable for me. When they said I was overdue for a pap I voluntarily consented to the procedure, but once it began it was so painful. It was so much worse than I remembered. I yelled so loud I thought a nurse would come in. I begged the doctor to stop but she literally just said, “Oh I’m almost done. I know I have a little one too.” She seemed to just keep opening it wider and wider. She gave me some very powerful ibuprofen for the pain and I spent the rest of the day in a daze. Every woman I spoke to including my sister and mother just reassured me that it was all normal and I was overreacting.The next day I woke up and could not stop crying. Not only was I still in pain but something felt so wrong. All the memories from my multiple rapes came flooding back. I found this site and I knew what had happened. The procedure felt totally forced. They tell you to relax but you can’t just automatically relax your vaginal muscles enough for that large amount of stretching. I also unfortunately found forum after forum of women and doctors saying that it didn’t bother them at all, which ignores the women who were traumatized by the experience. Even worse I found women having even worse experiences than mine and countless comments saying that even if it was a bad experience that it’s just a normal part of being a woman. I’m still having a lot of crying spells from the lack of control and I’m still in pain two days later, but finding this site has helped a lot and I now know that the procedure is not as mandatory as they make it sound.

    Reply
    • Hi Emmi. I am so sorry about your experience. This site is for women who have been harmed by smear tests. We are here for you. Read all the posts and comments and learn about the real facts about cervical cancer. It is rare yet women are forced to have this test so regularly all their adult lives. I’m afrsid we havd all been lied to by doctors who we now realise don’t have our best interests at heart. Anyone with an ounce of real compassion would not have subjected you to this useless procedure when they could see you were in distress. A real healer would not do this.
      I don’t test and neither do the others here yet we are all healthy happy people better off for our decision. I am thinking about you and hope that over the next few days you come to terms with the forced pap. You don’t have to have anymore if you don’t want. Arm yourself with all the arguments and facts and grow strong and just say no to any more. My love and best wishes to you. I am so glad another women has found us.

      Reply
    • In my experience nurses have been bossy and pushy about things. I hate how its assumed all woman will have pap smears. The wording they use while talking to woman is “your over ,” due. It makes woman feel there is no choice.

      Reply
      • That is exactly how I felt. I absolutely felt that the wording used makes the procedure feel mandatory and they know that. Their agenda is making sure women are screened often so that they are healthy but they are not taking into consideration the invasiveness that some women feel and the absolute pain involved. Studies are coming out about how mammograms don’t do much to prevent breast cancer yet they are pushed on so many women. I feel the pap smear is similar. I hope that twenty years from now we can look back and be embarrassed at such a medieval medical practice.

      • I believe that’s called “social engineering.” I go with the “Jedi Mind Trick” more & more, because it IS like that. There’s a presumed honesty & accuracy between people (ex: usually someone figures that if they ask someone what time it is, the time they say is the time on their watch & usually it is- it’s pretty weird to randomly lie like that, but there are those that use that against people).

        Look at something: When someone says what they “will” be doing or what someone’s “going” to be having (like in a medical setting), they are presenting things as a fixed situation- as if there exists no capacity for things to “unfurl” differently. Since an action has to be engaged in order to occur, this is nonsense in the first place. What happens is what occurs, after all.

        Saying “need,” “must,” and “have to” are similar. It seems to be keying into a fear of death with that, though- since usually things that it’ll kill you do be without are referenced as “needs.” Again, an action has to be engaged in order to occur. So if someone says “We NEED to do this,” the answer could easily be “Well yeah, otherwise the situation doesn’t occur- I still refuse/decline/bar this action.” Also, maybe adding in that it’s iatrogenic attack to impose the action- especially after it’s been declined.

82. I have been reading these awful stories. It breaks my heart. I have previously posted about my paps and the ridiculous amounts I have had from them. I did not mention, however, the invasiveness of my pregnancy and birth – not really sure where else to release these emotions and talk about it.

    When I was pregnant, not 1 individual in my OBGYN’s clinic EVER looked at my vagina. I never had a pelvic exam, an internal exam or a pap smear. Nothing. I was quite surprised and was very happy. When I had my c-section, however, I was COMPLETELY horrified. The actual surgery was not bad and while in the operating room, the doctors and nurses told me what was happening and what they would be doing. The care I received after the surgery was awful. It was as if the nurses felt that my body was theirs and could come and go into and out of my room and do whatever they pleased. I had nurses that would come in, rip the covers off of me, and pull my gown up to check if I was ‘bleeding’ without even asking me. While I was in the recovery room, I had a nurse walk in, pull down my gown and expose me, without asking people to leave the room, and flick my nipple to stimulate milk production. She DID NOT ask me if I even wanted to breastfeed or if I wanted to attempt it. She just continued on without even acting like I was a human being. Needless to say, my mother is very vocal and put them all in their place. Eventually I had an amazing nurse that helped me get back to normal as quickly as possible and I checked myself out of the hospital 40 hours after surgery.

    These stories just really make me wonder why medical professionals (including nurses) feel that they are above others. YET, most of them do NOT go for screening, do NOT go to the doctors regularly and are the WORST patients.

    Reply
    • I am so sorry to the young lady that had the traumatizing exams; I would feel exactly the same way if I hadn’t escaped the exams. To the young lady that had the horrible birth experience, I’m sorry and I fear this happening to me. I am planning to get married and have children, but I plan to refuse any vaginal exams. However, I fear doctors making me expose my breasts for no reason during the birth or trying to make me breastfeed (I’m an engineer and I work with mostly men; there would be no way for me to excuse myself constantly due to milk falling from my breasts).

      Reply
      • Have you thought about other countries? You know you can get citizenship by heritage & a lot of countries give lots of paid maternity leave. If you can get citizenship in any EU country, you can live & work as well as retire in any of them.

        Not to go on & on, but another reason I say this is because America is culturally hostile to that general idea from what I can tell. All bullshit & polishing aside, they LIKE extrapersonal activities on that level. It just occurs to them to do stuff like that, even if it has nothing to do with the situation- it’s just their psychology coming out.

        There’s lots of variations & it seems to only be a change of tact- like how con-artists might prefer different scams. I just notice that it seems that they “attach riders” frequently & deliberately apply a massive amount of manipulation to what they do.

        Sometimes it’s that one thing is reminiscent of another (ex: pelvic exams to test for bladder infections) & it seems that their minds just stupidly combine the two things. Other times that makes a useful ploy for them & they use it. Usually, when people get like that, it seems to be helpful to just “announce” the situation (like saying: “Oh, because one thing is reminiscent of another?”).

        Sometimes it’s a certification/confidence thing- where they’re saying something & would only know what they are taught as doctrine, but acting like since you can’t get them to admit they’re full of shit is a sign that you’re wrong. Same with the fact that the body of information itself that they are taught is suspicious. This is especially true if there’s other people in the room & they can sense that they hold them in some kind of awe.

        This is something that isn’t UNIQUE to them, of course. It’s just that they do things deliberately & other people act like it’s somehow other than that- plus they act like information MUST be untrue if it’s not first-hand & try to figure out ways that it’s still not true when it IS first-hand information.

        Ever hear of “gaslighting”? It’s when someone tries to discredit you to yourself. If you notice, a lot of people are big fans of saying things like “maybe you just didn’t know it.” There’s usually some kind of denial situation that the person is unaware of, like they don’t have any psychological propioception. Notice that this is only with the severe stuff that people don’t like to hear. No one’s ever crazy or wrong if it’s something that the listener would prefer to be true. I guess they feel disturbed by the thought that “there’s something out there that could hurt them.” Especially considering that they wouldn’t even TRY to do anything back if an attempt was made against them.

        Went on a bit of a rant there, but it’s real stuff that seems to happen less in other countries.

83. Unscrupulous gynaecologists can kill you, or at least cause unnecessary harm. I know because it happened to me firsthand…..

    Here are some comments to my story……

    ……..MY HORROR STORY…….
    I was one of those lucky women who never suffered any gynaecological problems in the 58 years I had my precious female organs. I trusted the female doctor who did my yearly Pap smear (which she insisted I have every year, despite never, ever having abnormal cells). I did not know she was in cahoots with corrupt gynaecologists looking for easy prey to use for greed and training material. She forced me into seeing a gynaecologist writing that I had post-menopausal bleeding, which was a blatant lie, as I NEVER had a single drop of blood since my menopause finished 5 1/2 years before. She would not take “NO” for an answer. She did everything to gain my trust, so I didn’t understand what was going on. She wore me down until I gave in. I went to the gynaecologist she referred me to so he could examine me, say I’m fine and send me home. I’d never seen him before in my life. As soon as I sat down, he opened the referral, and the first words out of his mouth was: “You have bleeding. I’m giving you a curette.” I was shocked. He didn’t ask me one single question, and he didn’t examine me. I said I had no bleeding, and I was not having a curette, but he would not take “NO” for an answer. He already had me booked in for a curette. I was not told that it is my choice. He manipulated and coerced me until I gave in. At the post-op appointment 2 weeks later, he said I had cancer and had to have a hysterectomy. He’d already sent the referral to MMC (a public hospital I had never been to before, and was not told Monash Medical Centre is a teaching hospital). I only went there to be examined, told I’m fine, and sent home. (moderated) in Gynaecology/oncology called me in after the waiting room was empty. He then mentioned the bleeding. I was so angry, I said: “Why do you people keep saying I had bleeding, when I hadn’t had a single drop since my menopause finished over 5 years ago, until I was given the curette and bled for 3 days”. He ignored me and told me he was going to take out my cervix, my uterus, my fallopian tubes, and my ovaries. And he was going to do it by laparoscopy, but still may have to cut me open.” Again I was shocked. I said: I have no bleeding, I have no pain, I have no symptoms whatsoever, and begged for another option.” He went berserk. His face was full of anger and contempt as he yelled at me: “YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION. YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DON’T HAVE TO HAVE CHEMOTHERAPY. NOT LIKE ALL THOSE WOMEN IN THE WAITING ROOM”, and he flicked his hand toward the empty waiting room and said: “THEY WEREN’T SO LUCKY”. I was shocked. He then answered every question I asked with: You’ll be fine, and insisted I go in, in 2 days. Then he shoved a piece of paper in front of me and pointed where to sign. He did not go through one thing written on that form. I asked him if he’d done laparoscopy surgery before, and he looked me in the eye and told me he’d done hundreds that he could do them with his eyes closed. A blatant lie. I did not know that after I left he added on the form he forced me to sign that he may take out some pelvic lymph nodes as well. He sprung that on me just before the surgery. To make a long story short. He mutilated 6 healthy organs from my body, and God knows how many lymph nodes, as that was covered-up. He botched it beyond repair leaving me wailing in agony every day and bleeding out since he butchered me in June 2005. The morning after he slaughtered my organs, he smugly told me that I was as clean as a whistle. That all my removed organs had been healthy. The whole system took his side and did everything to discredit me and spread the word I was paranoid. They denied that I was in any pain, and kept sending me to psychiatrists who just kept pushing drugs on me and telling me they found nothing wrong in the tests when I kept telling them how much pain I’m in. I’ve never in my life been touched by such evil. I was a victim of fraud, and criminal medical malpractice, and my health and my life has been destroyed by those evil doctors. Why aren’t women warned about these corrupt doctors who trick healthy women into unnecessary hysterectomies? This surgical racket has been going on for decades, and will never stop because as Dr (moderated) said: “The system is still geared to protecting doctors’ reputations rather than protecting patients from unnecessary harm”…

    DrSuarna Mehulic…. Dear June, I am in this difficult situation because I objected such charlatans and their treatment of patients. Your story is unfortunately not uncommon. I have seen it before and I have seen situation where when unethical and unprofessional doctors take all reproductive organs of the patient and cause chronic pain due to botched and unnecessary surgeries. After that is done their next step is to refer patient to psychiatrist. It is absurd reality that these unethical , unprofessional people always get away with everything wrong they do , because they make revenue for the institutions. Most likely you asked yourself lots of time ” why me” but I have to tell you that it is not only you. Only what I know for sure that until values such as honesty, accountability, humanity are surpassed by greediness, business oriented medicine , these issues will not get resolved. There were times when being physician was honored profession and being public servant was the most honored role in the society. I think values has been changed to most honored status of being rich instead. Possibly nationwide campaign to return these values to medicine is of uttermost importance in times to come !
    Respectfully
    Dr.Sue

    June Gardner…. Thank you so much for your compassion, and for the TRUTH, Dr Sue. I’ve been trying to tell women since it happened to me in June 2005, but nobody believes me. I berate myself every day, for being so stupid. Every fibre in my body told me they were wrong, and to RUN for my life, but before this happened, I had complete trust in that female doctor. She did everything to gain my trust, so every time she said I had something wrong, and manipulated and forced her will on me until she wore me down, I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt. My trust was so misplaced, but doctors are revered as the most trusted profession here, and I took that literally. I rarely got sick, so I was totally medically ignorant….THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for believing my story. I prayed every day to find someone like you who isn’t afraid to blow the whistle on her own profession. God bless you Dr Sue. I’m crying, but it’s for joy that I found you.

    Garrick Sitongia Wow June, that’s really a great reply from DrSuarna.

    June Gardner It great to find an honest doctor who validated my story Garrick, and she lives in America. It would NEVER happen here in Australia, as the corrupt complaints depts. sided with the doctors who harmed me, and not only turned against me, but called me unrealistic, and wrote it was a matter of science and knowledge, that the doctors did no wrong, and I should be lucky they operated on me immediately as some women have to wait up to 9 months for elective hysterectomies. As you can see from my story, I was not told it was elective, and I was bullied and threatened into it. And what science and knowledge? All my removed organs had been healthy, and I was lied to, deceived, totally misled, misinformed, and hoodwinked into immediate surgery. The complaints depts. also said that I went looking medical intervention for bleeding, (a blatant lie) and they had the gall to say that all the agony I’m going through, and the non-stop bleeding caused by the surgery was common after a hysterectomy, and to go find a pain clinic. If that was the case, there would be millions of women worldwide, doubled over in agony, needing wheelchairs, or walking aids to get around.

    Janice Louise Patients need to learn not to give the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for sharing your story June.

    Elizabeth Eugenia LaBozetta June, from gleaning detail from your story there is no doubt in my mind that you were targeted for student surgery training and that you somehow fit the profile of someone they felt they could take full advantage of and get away with it. (as in NOT a “club” member who are protected from such flagrant human-rights abuses as long as they follow “club” rules to the letter) That God for honest doctors like Dr. Suarna who are not afraid to tell the truth. The real doctors.

    June Gardner You are so right Elizabeth. Thought you’d like to read these few paragraphs said by residents at a teaching hospital, from the chapter called: “Negotiating to do Surgery”… After a potential patient was located, she had to be persuaded to have surgery. As one resident put it: “You have to look for your surgical procedures; you have to go after patients. Because no one is crazy enough to come and say, hey, here I am, I want you to operate on me. You have to sometimes convince the patient that she is really sick, and that she is better off with a surgical procedure.”……”The residents’ tactics, based on high volume, were similar to that of any effective sales person, regardless of the product; that is, the greater the number of contacts, the greater the probability of making a sale. This type of high-turnover sale was especially suited to the high-volume, quick turnover conditions in the clinics and emergency room. Like any sophisticated salesperson, a resident could judge within minutes whether a woman was going to buy a hysterectomy. When it appeared that she wasn’t, he used another tactic. Residents believed that women would eventually accept surgery if they were given some time to think it over. Thus, after a resident had completed his pitch and the woman was still reluctant, he would tell her that he would call her in a week and discuss the surgery further. The woman was dismissed and the next prospective case was brought into the examining room. The entire interaction, including physical examination, usually took three or four minutes”….. “Once the woman agreed to surgery, she lost whatever power she previously had had – the power of refusal. The situation changed from one of negotiation to complete control by the resident. The patient was expected to trust the knowledge and wisdom of her doctor. She was not consulted on the form her surgery would take nor was it expected that she was capable of understanding medical-surgical mysteries. The resident, influenced by his own need for practice, decided what operation he would do. Women were not aware that there was a choice.”…..”Surgical teaching programs are having increasing difficulty finding subjects to learn on because they greatly depend on the availability of ward or indigent patients and with increased third-party payments, the number of such patients is shrinking. As a consequence, residents in many city hospitals have done more “selling.”…….” To improve my surgical technique and to get a chance to do some of the surgeries that we don’t get a chance to do otherwise, I went for radical surgery where your dissect out everything; you look for everything”…. “I do enjoy it, and think any doctor is lucky to do radical surgery”…..”It is by mistakes that you grow and mature as a physician. You learn not to do it again; I think that is important. Because if I wasn’t ever going to make any mistakes, there wouldn’t be any reason for me to spend four years being a resident”…..”I don’t know if you can call it a mistake or something that you aren’t experienced with and do something wrong. You can’t call it a mistake. It’s inexperience. If you aren’t taught something, you can’t do it.”….

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84. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1600252-I-was-abused-by-my-GP-wish-Id-reported-it

    This webpage makes for very sad reading, and made me weep, but it needs to be told.

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    • An assault was common in the 1980s if you were young, attractive and asked for the Pill. I noticed the male doctor (almost all doctors were male back then) had strict requirements for “some” women, basically, strip off for a “careful” and “thorough” breast and bimanual pelvic exam & pap test, he might also do a rectal exam. Some of these women were left naked during the “consult”…not even a sheet. I suppose he could really enjoy the view that way.

      The less attractive (to him) and overweight got the Pill with a blood pressure test.

      I also knew many young women who endured a breast exam at many (and sometimes most) medical consults, it might be for an infected toe, a cold or migraine.
      The old, “I’ll just quickly check your breasts while you’re here”….
      I KNEW these men were predators, misusing their professional position, but it went on and on. The rare complaint fell on totally deaf ears, the woman would be more likely to receive a lecture!

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85. When we are younger we don’t realise the danger we’re in visiting our GP. I would tell your daughters to be on their guard when they go the docs. I think its always best to buddy up with a friend and never be alone. If I make an appointment from now on I will always go with John and he with me so as were not put into any situation were we agree to something we don’t want. I believe in safety in numbers. I’ve never been groped in a pub, night club or down dark alleys but i have been assaulted in medical situations on frequent occasions. This also applies to women docs and nurses.

    Last week in the St Helens Star there was an article about a doc from Nigeria whod been working in the area for about 3 yrs. He was struck of for assaulting teenage girls between 16 and 18. (To make sure they were develping normally ???) He has not been jailed because they never are.

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