Women’s experiences of gynecological/obstetric procedures can be sufficiently distressing to cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). 500 women took part in a study about the psychological effects of vaginal exams, pap tests, and other gynecological/obstetric procedures. Of the 500 women who took part in the study, over 100 women reported their experiences as ‘very distressing’ or ‘terrifying’. Of the 100 women who reported distressing experiences, 30 were diagnosed with PTSD.
PTSD is described as a “reaction to catastrophic trauma”, and includes symptoms of flashbacks and repetitious re-experiencing of the trauma, avoidance of similar situations, and extreme distress when faced with events similar to those that caused the trauma (Menage, 1993, p. 221).
The study highlights the similarities between the after effects of rape and women’s experiences with gynecological procedures. Following rape, PTSD can result from the associated feelings of powerlessness and of being with an unsympathetic assailant, and also painful, humiliating, and/or mutilating experiences.
Similarly, the women diagnosed with PTSD as a result of gynecological procedures reported:
-a lack of information and consent related to the exam/procedure
-feelings of powerlessness
-feelings of being in an unsympathetic environment, and
-experiences of physical pain.
Some of the phrases used by the women who took part in the study to describe their experiences include:
-‘dehumanizing and painful’;
-‘degrading and distressing’;
-‘my opinions were dismissed as irrelevant’;
-‘hurting and feeling violated’;
-‘very brutal internal was excruciating’;
-‘it felt undeniably like rape’.
The study also highlighted the similarity between post-war veteran’s PTSD diagnostic scores and women’s post-gynecological procedure PTSD diagnostic scores. Post war veterans who completed the same questionnaire as the women in the study achieved similar scores. Menages states the “severity of the obstetric/gynecological trauma can perhaps be inferred from comparing these scores” (1993, p. 223).
There is a lack of research related to PTSD following gynecological procedures. The study quoted above was published in 1993, and there does not appear to be any follow-up research specific to gynecological procedure- related PTSD published since that time. There has been some recognition in the literature given to the trauma of pap tests experienced by women with a history of having been sexually assaulted, but the trauma caused by pap tests themselves is generally ignored.
The traumatic after effects of pap tests and other related gynecological procedures continue to go largely unrecognized by the medical community. Perhaps the consensus among clinicians is that by ignoring the issue it can continue to go unaddressed, and will not interrupt business-as-usual.
forwomenseyesonly 
Do not take your girls to see a doctor again unless they present with symptoms you yourself can’t treat. No one needs to look at anyones genitals to see if they are ok. More and more is coming out about how damaging these visual inspections are. As a good mother you must do everything you can to protect your childrens welfare. It is now coming out just how perverted a lot of doctors are. I realise now the extent to which americans are brainwashed. In uk and europe no doctor would ever bd allowed to look at a childs genitals unless there was a proper medical reason. We simply don’t have these exams.
Quite right, Linda, we don’t have them in Australia either, they’re called well-child exams and like well-woman exams they are not evidence backed and carry risk from false positives. (not to mention psychological issues)
I agree, only see a doctor you trust when it’s necessary, check the evidence for yourself Nameless, the well-child exam is not a good idea.
I think some parent’s feel they should say to their children, it’s okay for a doctor to look at your genitals or touch them, it’s not, these exams require our consent (or the parent’s consent) and there should be a sound medical reason for the exam. (backed by evidence)
Visual inspections of the genitals are not backed by evidence, almost every routine intrusion on the symptom-free body is unnecessary and simply exposes us to risk.
I know American gynecologists now want to see girls as young as 12 or 13 for an annual exam. It sounds like this includes a visual check of the genitals, a routine pelvic exam “is usually not required” (I’ve read on ACOG’s website) Well, the evidence says a routine pelvic exam is never required and that these well-girl exams are not backed by evidence and carry risk. I hope parent’s take the time to do some research before putting their daughter’s through these distressing and potentially harmful exams.
Hi Eliz. Just imagine the horror of having your genitals inspected by some horrible saliva drooling doctor when you were s child. You would never get over it. How can anyone think this is right. Surely we can live our lives without all this intrusion to our private parts. I’m not some weird genital expert but from what i’ve seen in pics they are all different anyway.
so sorry about what happened to your little girl nameless. unfortunately it’s all too common. I just hope that between her abuser and the dr she won’t think that she doesn’t get to decide what happens to her body and think that her saying no doesnt mean anything. there’s one thing that I still don’t understand….what’s wrong with a dr just ASKING?? All children from about 4 and up could just be asked “Is everything ok with your girl/boy parts? has anything there been hurting or itching or puffy?” How freakin hard is that?? even the whole ‘check em’ during sports physicals with boys WHY?? A hernia is pretty obvious- no boy is going to miss a suspicious painful bulge in his scrotum or lower abdomen. That’s not an excuse for anyone to grope his privates. and over the age of 4 there’s no need for a dr to just randomly handle a childs genitals when they could just ASK!
When it happened before it caught me off guard. I wasn’t expecting that and actually I didn’t schedule my other daughter because of it. They check for scoliosis and that kind of thing too so I worry that they should be seen to make sure they are ok otherwise. I just don’t want them to do any kind of genital exam. They take meds and have follow up visits routinely to make sure the meds are not causing problems. I’m ok with that but they mention the well child exam needs to be done at age 8. Since they haven’t had one in so long.
Just say no. Don’t do anything to harm your precious ones. Too many kids – boys and girls are just being trsumatized by these exams. Its horrible. Don’t go to any doctors just lestn to take care of your kids by info on the internet. Doctors in america are obsessed with childrens genitals. They are bad people. Look at that dentist who goes sround killing animals for fun. You just cant trust anyone.
what I don’t like about the whole genital exams on children thing is that I think it sends the wrong message. We all tell the children we love (even if they’re not ours) that no one has the right to touch them. Small children believe (at least for a little while) pretty much everything theyre told. “No one can touch me if I say no.” and then they get taken to a dr. who (possibly without warning) may pull down their underwear and look/touch them. Did the dr make sure it was okay with them first? probably not. Did the dr or parents ignore/minimize any feelings of fear/discomfort the child had? Possibly. So now the message becomes “everyone says no one can touch me there but the dr did. I didn’t give him permission and he didn’t stop when I got scared. ????”
every single parenting/child psychology guide lists “stability, routine, established boundaries/behaviors, knowing what to expect etc etc” as one of the most important factors for healthy child development. What do you think this sort of situation does to that concept?? I think a child may it see it as 1. they don’t get to decide what happens to their bodies 2. saying no to someone who tries to touch them doesn’t really mean anything.
A child (even somewhat older ones) may not register the difference between a dr ignoring/invading their boundaries vs their best friends creepy older brother who says “come play dr with me in my room.” The thought process may be something like “well the dr gets to touch me there whenever he wants so I guess this is kinda the same.” and once creepy bro gets the clothes off if the child feels its wrong and gets frightened do you think he will listen? NO. “Well the last time I was touched there I didn’t want the dr to do it but he didn’t listen so it’s nothing new that this guy isn’t listening to me.” (no doesn’t mean anything/i dont get to decide) and then to make matters worse the child may not tell anyone because to them it was just another dr touching them there and the last time it happened mommy/daddy/dr made them feel wrong/bad for being scared.
I think genital exams on children- especially forced ones- send am awful message psychologically speaking. If I ever have kids I won’t allow it to be done after the age where they can just be asked if everything is ok. Or if asked I may say something like “It’s not my choice it’s his/hers and you must 1-ask his/her permission 2-explain why you are doing it 3-stop if he/she is upset.” In the case that it does need to be done I think that’s a much better approach then just yanking the undies down with no regard for the childs boundaries. oh how I hate our american medical system.
i remember being traumatized by drs pulling down my pants as a teen i lied about being sexually active to be left alone.
i never did get any help with my problem of vaginimous ( tightlng up tying to have sex)
years and $$$$ of dam attempts with no answers i gave up. i hope you drs are happy causing me no sex life. ) very little with the help of coke)
i finally gave up! i hope maybe someone will love me as damaged as i am.
gyn’s can rot in hell
I have a very early memory of one of these exams, and saying no to the dr. My mother yelled at me, so I had to do it. Possibly why I have always thought of these exams as horrifying intrusions. Your post is absolutely correct!
Hi all. A vagina mad gyno called jans casimir sieski is accused of being an animal serial killer. On his website is feedback on his attempts to force unecessary hystos on women. He is just a butcher of women and animals. He will deff rot in hell.
Hi Linda,
Can you provide a link?
Hi Ada i found the comments on this site – before you access it i must warn you may not like it, is is a radical site. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3319807/posts scroll down it is there near the bottom.
Linda it sounds truly awful I’ve not dared go there. Hope you doing Ok. I got a multi vitamin with iron and after 2 weeks rest my legs belong to me again but I still get exhausted. On a positive note I had my bloods done at my surgery today ( which I hate.. Truly terrified of needles!) and no mention of smears!!
Hi Kat. I was wondering how you are doing. Glad your getting treated well and sorting out your migraines. I hope the smear thing has been sorted no one has rung me in ages now and i intend avoiding doctors from now on. I wonder if there are any good respectful doctors out there that buck against the system and do whats best for patients
Over the past few days my focus has been over the furore on hunting. John says i go from one thing to another as if it was an obsession. But thats how i live my life – i feel deeply about things. I just want to nake the planet a better place.
Thanks Linda. And you do a good job as I’ve said before!!
Hi Linda,
There are some decent doctors out there, not that I’ve bumped into any of them (lol!), but this website is worth looking at and good for the soul:
http://grassrootsgp.org/:
As Margaret McCartney has said, many GPs hate the GP contract, which they have to work to, and there are many of them who want to see change, especially with regard to screening, as this website makes clear. It is the shit doctors who make the media headlines, but the ones who genuinely do good and respect people are often quietly going about their business as unsung heroes. I’m very touched and moved by the brave souls who soldier on with their good causes despite all the knock backs they take.
Your John is right. Don’t let these wicked bastards get you down. I’m also very angry about this trophy hunting business, and I’m sure the vast majority of human beings feel the same way about it. Find some good caring people to follow in life, as I find that their wisdom is a great help when things do not appear to be going so well.
I strongly agree. I have been assaulted, battered and I feel raped by a gynecologist after I politely refused an endometrial biopsy. Offices kept calking me and started sendin me letters. I felt bullied and frightened. In 2011. I went to my regular pcp for a car accident injury. Back and neck pain. During this visit, (moderated, name deleted) nurse no less started asking me about my sex life. I was divorced and I politely but quite embarrassingly told her i had sex once and she offered a pap. I thought this odd as she was not a gyno and NO SYMPTOMS. BUT I FOOLISHLY LET HER. Week later i was told i had hpv. Hence my nightmate began. The harrassing phone calls and frightening conversations about cancer. I had so many questions yet they could not answer them. They told me i HAD to get a colposcopy even tho the disease clears on its own in most cases. I did. Even tho the colposcopy was fine I was repeatedly harassed about pap smears. I was of perimenopause age and periods were skipping so they wanted biopsy. I had no other symptoms yet they would NOT DO BLOODWORK to check hormones. They would only do endometrial biopsy. I was told by (moderated, name deleted) that there is no test for hormones and she can only put me on the pill. I was confused. Time continued to go and my pcp told me to get hormones checked so i called swampscott obgyn AGAIN. THey refused to be my dr saying i missed too many appts A LIE. They kept making appts for me to do a biopsy. I kept telling them no. They ultimately sent me to (moderated, name deleted). Telling me he can check hormones but ONLY IF YOU DOA ROUTINE PAP. I Was desperate for hormone education so i said yes. This Dr (moderated, name deleted) assaulted, battered and raped me. He abruptly entered the room from behind a curtain without knocking before i was done getting undressed. i denied an introduction and told to stop speaking. I was asked the ages, WHEREABOUTS AND WELL BEING OF MY CHILDREN and told to lay back.
He did full breast exam and within moments of him down there I felt such excruciating pain my body jumped and i was in a sitting position. The dr or the nurse ignored my bodies reaction and i was terrified. They both never looked at my face. I could no longer sit up with speculum inside me and they waited for me to lay back down. I looked to yhis nurse for comfort whike crying with fear and pain and she never once took her eyes off the dr. I felt strange deep scraping and saw large amounts of bulbous tissue pink and with blood traces through it. He dropped it in a cup the nurse was holding. He then stood up and walked very far back to the wall and told me to coughwhile he viewed me from far away. 3 times each time instructing me to do it harder while speculum still in. He told me he was going to do internal exam where i felt pulling down on my organs. I was packed with a gel like substance after.
The next day I experienced pain in my stomach lower abdomen. A dropping sensation burning enough to double me over in pain. I started bleeding and the pain worsened. Heaviness in my lower abdomen vaginal pain and burning and overall malaise and fatigue. I bled for a about Five days but the pain cramping heaviness burning worsened to an unbearable level. I have been thru mulitiple tests. SOOO MANY PAPS AND CULTURES. This was orchestrated to get me to succumb to that biopsy and get tissue from my body
Something strange is happening ladies with them wanting tissue from our bodies. This was a violation of my human rights and the NURSE WATCHED AND DID NOTHING. I feel abused , tricked, lied to, bullied, assaulted and raped. I have ptsd and damaged body with pain and discomfort everyday. This has taken a toll on my family. I am single mom with a son with special needs. Please learn from my experience and stay away from the afforementioned practice and GUARD YOUR BODIES. ask questions and report any bullying or strange events during gynecological exams. Too many women are afraid to speak up for themselves. This can happen to anyone including our daughters if we do not fight for our rights.
Sincerely
Pamela
Linda, its Spiritedaway…we have spoken a few times. You welcomed me here with many kind words. i hope you are well and also I hope you use my experience in your book. I would love to talk to you again. I have not been here in a while. Ive been trying to deal with my issues, sometimes its just too hard to talk about. I will do whatever it takes to spread the word of what is happening. For me the bullying and trickery that led up to my assault is mind blowing. Some days Its just too frightening to even think about. I was a completely healthy woman and these Drs. stole something from me. MY LIFE!!! I would be happy to share with you anything you would like to know. Love to hear from you. GOD BLESS!!
Hi spitit. I’ve been on holiday and haven’t kept up with posts. I think about you and everyone here all the time. I have been posting loads on sites about Cecil. Its time the entire human race decided where we are going. Its no longer about the lion its about all of us. Men,women,black,white,asian,gay,straight,abled,disabled,christian,muslim,jew,non believer – we are all part of a unique system of which there is no other. We need to take care of each other. The murders need to stop,the hate, the sheer disrespect some people have for each other. We want decent access to health care – we don’t want doctors demanding access to our privates all the time, we don’t want young girls being mutilated, we want decent ethical food,we want decent ethical clothes. We want the eco system to be cared for. Its 2015. Its the 21st century. If it doedn’t change now it never will.
I know i’m ranting but i’m not sorry. Since Feb and all the hassle about smears all the time i have been on a long journey which seems to be unfolding more every day in ways i never expected. I love all of you on this site and feel that you all share my aspiratipns for myself and others.
2 good reads here from one of the few human doctors recognising the distress caused by these exams:
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1342:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/the-pelvic-examination-put-to-the-test-1.536743
Hi Adawells. Thanks so much for linking the articles. The link to the BMJ article by Dr. Spence was a great read. Something odd: the first time I clicked on the link I was taken directly to the full article, free of charge. However, the second time I clicked on the same link, the article was no longer free as it had been hidden behind a pay wall. Very frustrating as it’s a brilliant article and worth a post. I was wondering if sending an email to Dr. Spence may be of any use in regards to “freeing” the article. The Irish Times article is also good, but doesn’t have quite the same punch.
Great effort to all attempting to get comments posted on the NHS choices site.
Hi Sue,
There was an email address for Dr Spence at the foot of the article. Did you want me to try and make contact to ask if the article can be used on this site?
Hi Adawells. Thanks for the offer to contact Dr. Spence, I appreciate it. However, after reading his replies to comments (which are still available for free viewing on the BMJ site) it appears that he is very much pro-screening of young women for cervical cancer. So unless we were willing to do a bit of educating he probably wouldn’t be all that keen to help us out here. He is at least able to see that pelvic exams are too non-specific to be of any use, and that they cause more harm than good. Plus he is against speculum use overall. Still a great article. Thanks again Adawells.
So what did it cover? Did it actually make the point that these are attacks when imposed? I notice a lot of articles & such leave out the concept of iatrogenic attack.
I also notice that it’s the BRITISH that are making these points, not as much the Americans. Then again, it seems there’s been SOME headway with that (Oregon & California seem to have the pill over the counter now- don’t know what that means for internet orders, though). Speaking of which, is that big news (like EVERYTHING with pot) or is it something on the down-low? I haven’t been reading the paper & have only watched a little news.
I am so thankful for this site. I know we have al been hurt in one way or another. I was talking to a nurse that works in L&D. She was talking about how women will about climb up the bed when she has to do a cervical check, and she is thinking to herself that she know that woman isn’t a virgin. Well, I have a friend that went to the hospital at 29 weeks after not feeling the baby move. The baby had died. My point is, what if that same nurse showed her compassion and comfort, but went into the next room, performed a vaginal exam, and left the woman traumatized? How the good ob/gyn doctors do outweigh the bad? How can something that can help cause so much pain? Everybody wants to make them out be heroes, but what about those of us that are hurt? These are just things I am dealing with. I can’t seem to get past hurt, humiliation, anger, and embarrassment. When I feel better, something comes along to stir it back up.
I am so sorry that many of you have been hurt by these procedures.
My story pales in comparison to many of the stories here. However, I was raised in a very religious home where s_x was not discussed unless the message was “don’t have s_x”. Nevertheless, we were also taught that no one was to touch us there. However, it would be conflicting when we would go to the pediatrician and they would demand for us to be completely naked, even when the treatment did not warrant it, and we would have to sit in front of all of the doctors and nurses that way with our parents simply saying “it’s okay; they are doctors”.
The extremely religious nature of our home did not allow for the discussion of teenage hormones, so when my sister reached puberty, she started to take it out on me and mildly molested me. i always had on my clothes, but she would still try to touch me through clothes and kiss me. My parents occasionally told her to stop, but ignored it most of the time. I guess they didn’t want to face the possibility of having a bi-s_xual daughter. I guess it was a phase, because she didn’t turn out to be bi-s_xual, but the abuse gave me a heightened sense of awareness about my body. It would make me very upset for anyone to see me naked, even if they walked in by accident. Also, I would dread doctors visits extremely due to the possibility of me having to be naked – not completely understanding that I could refuse.
Finally, one doctor was doing a chest exam on me for respiratory problems but he kept grabbing my breasts (I was 13). I didn’t like it, but I was afraid to “accuse” him because I thought that there was a chance that this may have been necessary in some strange way, even though I wanted to cry. Afterward, I asked my mother if this was necessary and she said “no, but since you didn’t try to stop him, I guess you must have liked it”. This was a HUGE statement coming from an extremely religious mother, so it made me feel even more ashamed and afraid of having to be undressed in front of a doctor.
As I became older and understood more about s_x, I decided that no one would ever see me down there again until I was married. It really is a big deal for me. I feel a lot of anxiety and experience anxiety attacks when doctors start discussing these exams as if they are about to force me to get them, especially when they walk in and start getting the speculum ready after I’ve said that I will not have the exam.
I can understand what you are saying. It is confusing to be told not to let anyone see you or touch, but it is ok for any doctor or nurse to do it. My mom was abused as a child, and was terrified of it happening to me. She became afraid that I had been by some things going on. When I was about 6, I had kidney problems, so the doctor went up through my urethra. I’m not sure if the dr examined me as part of this or to check if had been abused. I remember lying down, and he pulled mu underwear and pantyhose down and examined me without gloves, then he patted me on the leg. When we walked out, it was such creepy, weird feeling. Into adulthood I couldn’t stand pantyhose. My mom cant understand why my birth experience bothers me so much and wonders if I was molested. I talk to her about that experience, which I never had. She told me that she thought I knew if she was there she wouldn’t let anyone hurt me, but, oh, it traumatized me. Whenever asked if I had been molested or I tried to imagine it, that was what came to mind. I’m sorry for what you went through, and it was unfair for your mom to accuse you of enjoying it. I agrre with you so much about what you said in a post about them messing with our sex lives. Keep being strong and fighting against them:) There is a lot of us fighting the same fight
Your mother who told you never to fight them? That would inform you of their profession as if it somehow cancelled reality? What happens is what occurs & reality doesn’t take a coffee break for doctors.
Hi Chaste. What your mother allowed is horrible. There is a website called emerging frombroken (all one word) for adults who’s parents very wronly accused them of enjoying sexual contact as children from doctors or otherf adults. Its a betrayal of children which has devestatng effects on peoples lives. The women who runs it was raped by her mothers boyfriend at 13. Her mother accused her of encouraging it ! So she set up this site for adults harmed in this way. I hope you will find peace and love. X
I have even heard about doctors now trying to force women to breastfeed. Apparently, a woman who had just given birth said that she did not want to breastfeed due to her job and that it would be better for her to just let the milk dry up so that she could go to her job when she recovered. The next day, the doctor walked in with her baby, uncovered the woman, and tried to make the baby “latch on”.
This is getting ridiculous!
I have and herd of doctors massaging woman’s breast to see if nipples were tough with out asking. That is wrong. My body belongs to me no woman should have to apologize for bottle feeding her baby. It should be up to the mother.
I am so relieved to find this site and these articles. I had a couple of painful paps when I was a teenager and they were horrible, even with a female doctor. My most recent pap was two days ago and even though I remembered how awful they were when I was younger, I assumed that as a 27 year old woman I could handle it better now. However I did not take into consideration (nor did the medical staff inquire) that I am now a rape victim, a lesbian who has not been sexually active for 3 years, and I don’t put anything into my vaginal canal, not even tampons because it is uncomfortable for me. When they said I was overdue for a pap I voluntarily consented to the procedure, but once it began it was so painful. It was so much worse than I remembered. I yelled so loud I thought a nurse would come in. I begged the doctor to stop but she literally just said, “Oh I’m almost done. I know I have a little one too.” She seemed to just keep opening it wider and wider. She gave me some very powerful ibuprofen for the pain and I spent the rest of the day in a daze. Every woman I spoke to including my sister and mother just reassured me that it was all normal and I was overreacting.The next day I woke up and could not stop crying. Not only was I still in pain but something felt so wrong. All the memories from my multiple rapes came flooding back. I found this site and I knew what had happened. The procedure felt totally forced. They tell you to relax but you can’t just automatically relax your vaginal muscles enough for that large amount of stretching. I also unfortunately found forum after forum of women and doctors saying that it didn’t bother them at all, which ignores the women who were traumatized by the experience. Even worse I found women having even worse experiences than mine and countless comments saying that even if it was a bad experience that it’s just a normal part of being a woman. I’m still having a lot of crying spells from the lack of control and I’m still in pain two days later, but finding this site has helped a lot and I now know that the procedure is not as mandatory as they make it sound.
Hi Emmi. I am so sorry about your experience. This site is for women who have been harmed by smear tests. We are here for you. Read all the posts and comments and learn about the real facts about cervical cancer. It is rare yet women are forced to have this test so regularly all their adult lives. I’m afrsid we havd all been lied to by doctors who we now realise don’t have our best interests at heart. Anyone with an ounce of real compassion would not have subjected you to this useless procedure when they could see you were in distress. A real healer would not do this.
I don’t test and neither do the others here yet we are all healthy happy people better off for our decision. I am thinking about you and hope that over the next few days you come to terms with the forced pap. You don’t have to have anymore if you don’t want. Arm yourself with all the arguments and facts and grow strong and just say no to any more. My love and best wishes to you. I am so glad another women has found us.
In my experience nurses have been bossy and pushy about things. I hate how its assumed all woman will have pap smears. The wording they use while talking to woman is “your over ,” due. It makes woman feel there is no choice.
That is exactly how I felt. I absolutely felt that the wording used makes the procedure feel mandatory and they know that. Their agenda is making sure women are screened often so that they are healthy but they are not taking into consideration the invasiveness that some women feel and the absolute pain involved. Studies are coming out about how mammograms don’t do much to prevent breast cancer yet they are pushed on so many women. I feel the pap smear is similar. I hope that twenty years from now we can look back and be embarrassed at such a medieval medical practice.
I believe that’s called “social engineering.” I go with the “Jedi Mind Trick” more & more, because it IS like that. There’s a presumed honesty & accuracy between people (ex: usually someone figures that if they ask someone what time it is, the time they say is the time on their watch & usually it is- it’s pretty weird to randomly lie like that, but there are those that use that against people).
Look at something: When someone says what they “will” be doing or what someone’s “going” to be having (like in a medical setting), they are presenting things as a fixed situation- as if there exists no capacity for things to “unfurl” differently. Since an action has to be engaged in order to occur, this is nonsense in the first place. What happens is what occurs, after all.
Saying “need,” “must,” and “have to” are similar. It seems to be keying into a fear of death with that, though- since usually things that it’ll kill you do be without are referenced as “needs.” Again, an action has to be engaged in order to occur. So if someone says “We NEED to do this,” the answer could easily be “Well yeah, otherwise the situation doesn’t occur- I still refuse/decline/bar this action.” Also, maybe adding in that it’s iatrogenic attack to impose the action- especially after it’s been declined.
I have been reading these awful stories. It breaks my heart. I have previously posted about my paps and the ridiculous amounts I have had from them. I did not mention, however, the invasiveness of my pregnancy and birth – not really sure where else to release these emotions and talk about it.
When I was pregnant, not 1 individual in my OBGYN’s clinic EVER looked at my vagina. I never had a pelvic exam, an internal exam or a pap smear. Nothing. I was quite surprised and was very happy. When I had my c-section, however, I was COMPLETELY horrified. The actual surgery was not bad and while in the operating room, the doctors and nurses told me what was happening and what they would be doing. The care I received after the surgery was awful. It was as if the nurses felt that my body was theirs and could come and go into and out of my room and do whatever they pleased. I had nurses that would come in, rip the covers off of me, and pull my gown up to check if I was ‘bleeding’ without even asking me. While I was in the recovery room, I had a nurse walk in, pull down my gown and expose me, without asking people to leave the room, and flick my nipple to stimulate milk production. She DID NOT ask me if I even wanted to breastfeed or if I wanted to attempt it. She just continued on without even acting like I was a human being. Needless to say, my mother is very vocal and put them all in their place. Eventually I had an amazing nurse that helped me get back to normal as quickly as possible and I checked myself out of the hospital 40 hours after surgery.
These stories just really make me wonder why medical professionals (including nurses) feel that they are above others. YET, most of them do NOT go for screening, do NOT go to the doctors regularly and are the WORST patients.
I am so sorry to the young lady that had the traumatizing exams; I would feel exactly the same way if I hadn’t escaped the exams. To the young lady that had the horrible birth experience, I’m sorry and I fear this happening to me. I am planning to get married and have children, but I plan to refuse any vaginal exams. However, I fear doctors making me expose my breasts for no reason during the birth or trying to make me breastfeed (I’m an engineer and I work with mostly men; there would be no way for me to excuse myself constantly due to milk falling from my breasts).
Have you thought about other countries? You know you can get citizenship by heritage & a lot of countries give lots of paid maternity leave. If you can get citizenship in any EU country, you can live & work as well as retire in any of them.
Not to go on & on, but another reason I say this is because America is culturally hostile to that general idea from what I can tell. All bullshit & polishing aside, they LIKE extrapersonal activities on that level. It just occurs to them to do stuff like that, even if it has nothing to do with the situation- it’s just their psychology coming out.
There’s lots of variations & it seems to only be a change of tact- like how con-artists might prefer different scams. I just notice that it seems that they “attach riders” frequently & deliberately apply a massive amount of manipulation to what they do.
Sometimes it’s that one thing is reminiscent of another (ex: pelvic exams to test for bladder infections) & it seems that their minds just stupidly combine the two things. Other times that makes a useful ploy for them & they use it. Usually, when people get like that, it seems to be helpful to just “announce” the situation (like saying: “Oh, because one thing is reminiscent of another?”).
Sometimes it’s a certification/confidence thing- where they’re saying something & would only know what they are taught as doctrine, but acting like since you can’t get them to admit they’re full of shit is a sign that you’re wrong. Same with the fact that the body of information itself that they are taught is suspicious. This is especially true if there’s other people in the room & they can sense that they hold them in some kind of awe.
This is something that isn’t UNIQUE to them, of course. It’s just that they do things deliberately & other people act like it’s somehow other than that- plus they act like information MUST be untrue if it’s not first-hand & try to figure out ways that it’s still not true when it IS first-hand information.
Ever hear of “gaslighting”? It’s when someone tries to discredit you to yourself. If you notice, a lot of people are big fans of saying things like “maybe you just didn’t know it.” There’s usually some kind of denial situation that the person is unaware of, like they don’t have any psychological propioception. Notice that this is only with the severe stuff that people don’t like to hear. No one’s ever crazy or wrong if it’s something that the listener would prefer to be true. I guess they feel disturbed by the thought that “there’s something out there that could hurt them.” Especially considering that they wouldn’t even TRY to do anything back if an attempt was made against them.
Went on a bit of a rant there, but it’s real stuff that seems to happen less in other countries.
Unscrupulous gynaecologists can kill you, or at least cause unnecessary harm. I know because it happened to me firsthand…..
Here are some comments to my story……
……..MY HORROR STORY…….
I was one of those lucky women who never suffered any gynaecological problems in the 58 years I had my precious female organs. I trusted the female doctor who did my yearly Pap smear (which she insisted I have every year, despite never, ever having abnormal cells). I did not know she was in cahoots with corrupt gynaecologists looking for easy prey to use for greed and training material. She forced me into seeing a gynaecologist writing that I had post-menopausal bleeding, which was a blatant lie, as I NEVER had a single drop of blood since my menopause finished 5 1/2 years before. She would not take “NO” for an answer. She did everything to gain my trust, so I didn’t understand what was going on. She wore me down until I gave in. I went to the gynaecologist she referred me to so he could examine me, say I’m fine and send me home. I’d never seen him before in my life. As soon as I sat down, he opened the referral, and the first words out of his mouth was: “You have bleeding. I’m giving you a curette.” I was shocked. He didn’t ask me one single question, and he didn’t examine me. I said I had no bleeding, and I was not having a curette, but he would not take “NO” for an answer. He already had me booked in for a curette. I was not told that it is my choice. He manipulated and coerced me until I gave in. At the post-op appointment 2 weeks later, he said I had cancer and had to have a hysterectomy. He’d already sent the referral to MMC (a public hospital I had never been to before, and was not told Monash Medical Centre is a teaching hospital). I only went there to be examined, told I’m fine, and sent home. (moderated) in Gynaecology/oncology called me in after the waiting room was empty. He then mentioned the bleeding. I was so angry, I said: “Why do you people keep saying I had bleeding, when I hadn’t had a single drop since my menopause finished over 5 years ago, until I was given the curette and bled for 3 days”. He ignored me and told me he was going to take out my cervix, my uterus, my fallopian tubes, and my ovaries. And he was going to do it by laparoscopy, but still may have to cut me open.” Again I was shocked. I said: I have no bleeding, I have no pain, I have no symptoms whatsoever, and begged for another option.” He went berserk. His face was full of anger and contempt as he yelled at me: “YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION. YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DON’T HAVE TO HAVE CHEMOTHERAPY. NOT LIKE ALL THOSE WOMEN IN THE WAITING ROOM”, and he flicked his hand toward the empty waiting room and said: “THEY WEREN’T SO LUCKY”. I was shocked. He then answered every question I asked with: You’ll be fine, and insisted I go in, in 2 days. Then he shoved a piece of paper in front of me and pointed where to sign. He did not go through one thing written on that form. I asked him if he’d done laparoscopy surgery before, and he looked me in the eye and told me he’d done hundreds that he could do them with his eyes closed. A blatant lie. I did not know that after I left he added on the form he forced me to sign that he may take out some pelvic lymph nodes as well. He sprung that on me just before the surgery. To make a long story short. He mutilated 6 healthy organs from my body, and God knows how many lymph nodes, as that was covered-up. He botched it beyond repair leaving me wailing in agony every day and bleeding out since he butchered me in June 2005. The morning after he slaughtered my organs, he smugly told me that I was as clean as a whistle. That all my removed organs had been healthy. The whole system took his side and did everything to discredit me and spread the word I was paranoid. They denied that I was in any pain, and kept sending me to psychiatrists who just kept pushing drugs on me and telling me they found nothing wrong in the tests when I kept telling them how much pain I’m in. I’ve never in my life been touched by such evil. I was a victim of fraud, and criminal medical malpractice, and my health and my life has been destroyed by those evil doctors. Why aren’t women warned about these corrupt doctors who trick healthy women into unnecessary hysterectomies? This surgical racket has been going on for decades, and will never stop because as Dr (moderated) said: “The system is still geared to protecting doctors’ reputations rather than protecting patients from unnecessary harm”…
DrSuarna Mehulic…. Dear June, I am in this difficult situation because I objected such charlatans and their treatment of patients. Your story is unfortunately not uncommon. I have seen it before and I have seen situation where when unethical and unprofessional doctors take all reproductive organs of the patient and cause chronic pain due to botched and unnecessary surgeries. After that is done their next step is to refer patient to psychiatrist. It is absurd reality that these unethical , unprofessional people always get away with everything wrong they do , because they make revenue for the institutions. Most likely you asked yourself lots of time ” why me” but I have to tell you that it is not only you. Only what I know for sure that until values such as honesty, accountability, humanity are surpassed by greediness, business oriented medicine , these issues will not get resolved. There were times when being physician was honored profession and being public servant was the most honored role in the society. I think values has been changed to most honored status of being rich instead. Possibly nationwide campaign to return these values to medicine is of uttermost importance in times to come !
Respectfully
Dr.Sue
June Gardner…. Thank you so much for your compassion, and for the TRUTH, Dr Sue. I’ve been trying to tell women since it happened to me in June 2005, but nobody believes me. I berate myself every day, for being so stupid. Every fibre in my body told me they were wrong, and to RUN for my life, but before this happened, I had complete trust in that female doctor. She did everything to gain my trust, so every time she said I had something wrong, and manipulated and forced her will on me until she wore me down, I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt. My trust was so misplaced, but doctors are revered as the most trusted profession here, and I took that literally. I rarely got sick, so I was totally medically ignorant….THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for believing my story. I prayed every day to find someone like you who isn’t afraid to blow the whistle on her own profession. God bless you Dr Sue. I’m crying, but it’s for joy that I found you.
Garrick Sitongia Wow June, that’s really a great reply from DrSuarna.
June Gardner It great to find an honest doctor who validated my story Garrick, and she lives in America. It would NEVER happen here in Australia, as the corrupt complaints depts. sided with the doctors who harmed me, and not only turned against me, but called me unrealistic, and wrote it was a matter of science and knowledge, that the doctors did no wrong, and I should be lucky they operated on me immediately as some women have to wait up to 9 months for elective hysterectomies. As you can see from my story, I was not told it was elective, and I was bullied and threatened into it. And what science and knowledge? All my removed organs had been healthy, and I was lied to, deceived, totally misled, misinformed, and hoodwinked into immediate surgery. The complaints depts. also said that I went looking medical intervention for bleeding, (a blatant lie) and they had the gall to say that all the agony I’m going through, and the non-stop bleeding caused by the surgery was common after a hysterectomy, and to go find a pain clinic. If that was the case, there would be millions of women worldwide, doubled over in agony, needing wheelchairs, or walking aids to get around.
Janice Louise Patients need to learn not to give the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for sharing your story June.
Elizabeth Eugenia LaBozetta June, from gleaning detail from your story there is no doubt in my mind that you were targeted for student surgery training and that you somehow fit the profile of someone they felt they could take full advantage of and get away with it. (as in NOT a “club” member who are protected from such flagrant human-rights abuses as long as they follow “club” rules to the letter) That God for honest doctors like Dr. Suarna who are not afraid to tell the truth. The real doctors.
June Gardner You are so right Elizabeth. Thought you’d like to read these few paragraphs said by residents at a teaching hospital, from the chapter called: “Negotiating to do Surgery”… After a potential patient was located, she had to be persuaded to have surgery. As one resident put it: “You have to look for your surgical procedures; you have to go after patients. Because no one is crazy enough to come and say, hey, here I am, I want you to operate on me. You have to sometimes convince the patient that she is really sick, and that she is better off with a surgical procedure.”……”The residents’ tactics, based on high volume, were similar to that of any effective sales person, regardless of the product; that is, the greater the number of contacts, the greater the probability of making a sale. This type of high-turnover sale was especially suited to the high-volume, quick turnover conditions in the clinics and emergency room. Like any sophisticated salesperson, a resident could judge within minutes whether a woman was going to buy a hysterectomy. When it appeared that she wasn’t, he used another tactic. Residents believed that women would eventually accept surgery if they were given some time to think it over. Thus, after a resident had completed his pitch and the woman was still reluctant, he would tell her that he would call her in a week and discuss the surgery further. The woman was dismissed and the next prospective case was brought into the examining room. The entire interaction, including physical examination, usually took three or four minutes”….. “Once the woman agreed to surgery, she lost whatever power she previously had had – the power of refusal. The situation changed from one of negotiation to complete control by the resident. The patient was expected to trust the knowledge and wisdom of her doctor. She was not consulted on the form her surgery would take nor was it expected that she was capable of understanding medical-surgical mysteries. The resident, influenced by his own need for practice, decided what operation he would do. Women were not aware that there was a choice.”…..”Surgical teaching programs are having increasing difficulty finding subjects to learn on because they greatly depend on the availability of ward or indigent patients and with increased third-party payments, the number of such patients is shrinking. As a consequence, residents in many city hospitals have done more “selling.”…….” To improve my surgical technique and to get a chance to do some of the surgeries that we don’t get a chance to do otherwise, I went for radical surgery where your dissect out everything; you look for everything”…. “I do enjoy it, and think any doctor is lucky to do radical surgery”…..”It is by mistakes that you grow and mature as a physician. You learn not to do it again; I think that is important. Because if I wasn’t ever going to make any mistakes, there wouldn’t be any reason for me to spend four years being a resident”…..”I don’t know if you can call it a mistake or something that you aren’t experienced with and do something wrong. You can’t call it a mistake. It’s inexperience. If you aren’t taught something, you can’t do it.”….
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/a1600252-I-was-abused-by-my-GP-wish-Id-reported-it
This webpage makes for very sad reading, and made me weep, but it needs to be told.
An assault was common in the 1980s if you were young, attractive and asked for the Pill. I noticed the male doctor (almost all doctors were male back then) had strict requirements for “some” women, basically, strip off for a “careful” and “thorough” breast and bimanual pelvic exam & pap test, he might also do a rectal exam. Some of these women were left naked during the “consult”…not even a sheet. I suppose he could really enjoy the view that way.
The less attractive (to him) and overweight got the Pill with a blood pressure test.
I also knew many young women who endured a breast exam at many (and sometimes most) medical consults, it might be for an infected toe, a cold or migraine.
The old, “I’ll just quickly check your breasts while you’re here”….
I KNEW these men were predators, misusing their professional position, but it went on and on. The rare complaint fell on totally deaf ears, the woman would be more likely to receive a lecture!
When we are younger we don’t realise the danger we’re in visiting our GP. I would tell your daughters to be on their guard when they go the docs. I think its always best to buddy up with a friend and never be alone. If I make an appointment from now on I will always go with John and he with me so as were not put into any situation were we agree to something we don’t want. I believe in safety in numbers. I’ve never been groped in a pub, night club or down dark alleys but i have been assaulted in medical situations on frequent occasions. This also applies to women docs and nurses.
Last week in the St Helens Star there was an article about a doc from Nigeria whod been working in the area for about 3 yrs. He was struck of for assaulting teenage girls between 16 and 18. (To make sure they were develping normally ???) He has not been jailed because they never are.
I have been avoiding doctors for years because of the fear of being forced into a pelvic exam/pap smear. Before I found this site few days ago, I thought that cervical cancer was way more common than it actually is. I thought that pap smears were just “part of being a woman,” and that I didn’t really have a choice in the matter. The thought of getting one has always made me feel uneasy, nervous, and scared. I was fortunate enough to be able to avoid getting one all this time because when I finally did go to a doctor after about 12 years (because I was uninsured) I went to a clinic that was very busy and poorly organized. But when I went I was pretty much told I had to schedule a pap smear. Reluctantly, I did. When I showed up for that appointment, I was told she didn’t have time to do it that day because they were busy, thank god. There were actually five different times I was supposed to get one done but was lucky enough to get out of it every time for some reason. But after the fifth time, I decided I wasn’t comfortable with that procedure in the first place and I never rescheduled. I haven’t been back to the doctor since. But now that I know I have a choice and that I can say no, I’m not going to be afraid of doctors anymore. I don’t know who created this site, but thank you. This site had empowered me and has given me so much information about the dangers of these exams that the medical community doesn’t want us to know. I’m glad to know that I’m not alone and that there are other women out there just like me who say no to pelvic exams/pap smear.
Hi Elisabeth,
Thank you so much for sharing your story, and on behalf of all the women who helped create this site – You’re welcome! I’m happy you found us. Welcome aboard.
Sue 🙂
I am 17 years old and got my first pap last year when I was believed to have a bacterial infection. I am a virgin and have never been able to successfully insert a tampon, so obviously I was unnerved at the idea of a speculum inside me. Needless to say the experience was awful. We requested the smallest they had and they didn’t have nearly as small a speculum size as most do gyns do. It was immediately extremely uncomfortable and gradually progressed to THE most unbearable pain in my life- stinging, aching, bruising, burning, tearing sensations through my cervix all the way to my spine. I was sobbing an hour after the pap was over and during the pap because it was so painful. I begged the woman who was doing my pap to stop and take out the speculum, and she refused to even though I was told by my doctor that she would be sensitive and stop if I asked because she knew I was scared. The smear tested negatively for everything and we never found out what was wrong with me. The itching and irritation I had just continued and eventually stopped. A few months ago it came back but I was too terrified of going back to tell my mother to make me an appointment so I just waited it out a second time. I still can’t put a tampon in and cry even at the sight of one. I have no desire to ever have sex and am not sure if I ever will be able to. I have always wondered if something like this happened to other people and even though i wouldn’t wish it on anyone it’s very comforting to know I am not alone. Thank you so much for writing this article.
hi ally,
i canso relate to you. my mm took to a gyn when i was 18. she didn’t know i ‘s been abused. they could not do an exam. i suffered for yrs with exam attemps. never found what my issue is, vaginimus possibly. ( spamong when pentration is attempted)
i gave up on exams. had enough abuse fromm these drs. I am small can’t tolerate the speculum.
I am sorry you suffered from these cruel Dr s. FGlad you are here
diane
Hi Ally:
Very sorry about what happened to you. How are you now? Are you still experiencing symptoms. If so, it sounds like you may have an infection, but one that can be cleared up by over the counter medications. If you’re not experiencing abnormal bleeding then it’s likely not cancerous or fibroids. Try the over the counter medications first. If they don’t help – I know you may not want to hear it, but go to another gyn. Please do get a female again. Just talk to her first – ask her your questions and listen to her manner with you. If you don’t like how she talks to you – then it’s a sign of how she will treat you; go to another one. Insist on a urine test and blood test and if need be, an abdominal ultrasound. That will tell you if you have anything. Nothing was ever diagnosed by feeling inside a woman’s vagina. They can skip that. The only benefit is the incentive payments to them for getting as many women as possible in the stirrups to do paps. What will diagnose is blood work, urine test, MRI, CT-Scan – and if really needed – laporoscopy through your abdomen if you had severe abdominal pain. All that other nonsense with colposcopys are just that – nonsense. And insist that they do not do a transvaginal ultrasound. It’s a modified sex-toy with the same mechanism as the abdominal ultrasound. However, on that they use a condom and gel on it before putting it inside you. An abdominal ultrasound will do just fine. It’s the same exact imaging, but from a different angle than the transvaginal.
Please do not get a male gyn. Women get turned off of female gyn’s if they’ve had similar treatment that you’ve experienced. But, Ally, I guarantee you that going to a male will be much worse. You will feel like you’ve had a sexual experience. That will because it would be one if he does a speculum and bimanual exam – and he may insist thinking you’re naive and stupid given your young age. I don’t care how gentle he says he’ll be – that is only a “head’s up” of what he is thinking at the thought of touching your 17-year old virginal body. He can’t show it – he knows he’ll get fired and sued. Male gyns have mastered that act. Rather, it would come out with his manner if you let him touch you. Then you’ll get very confused and angry and like so many other women feel that you can’t do anything because he was “examining” you. He’ll think that all he has to do is feed you a line to make you think he has to go in there and feel for lumps or some nonsense. Sounds like a guy trying to get you to have sex, doesn’t it. Well, it’s extraordinarily similar. I’d hate for you to go through – that – refusing some bastard in a white lab coat who sweat through medical school, who is dying to be “your first.” He won’t act like it, but inside, he will be clamoring. Why insist then on having you go through that when he knows there are alternatives.
No, go to a woman gyn. Your first test came back negative – so likely will any invasive test that they want to try. Read up on the articles here on the medical studies about pap smears being ineffective. Cervical cancer is rare, but gyn’s don’t want to tell you that as they know women and girls (who shouldn’t go near a speculum until 25….if that….) will decline the pap smears and there goes the financial gain from their suffering. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like being lied to. By not providing the informed consent that this site provides, they are lying every day to get women and girls into stirrups. According to World Health Order (WHO), maybe 445,000 women GLOBALLY may get cervical cancer. Out of those 84% re in developing countries. That means maybe 71,200 women between Europe and the U.S. may get it. Considering as of 2016 there were 318 million people in the U.S. – and half are women – that makes cervical cancer extremely rare. But see if a gyn in the U.S. will tell you that. Be empowered Ally.
Keep us posted Ally and I hope for the best for you..
Be blessed.
Ally, the other women who comment on this blog may be more knowledgeable than I am and be able to give you better medical advice; But I fail to see how the hell a pap test would help diagnose a bacterial infection. I’m 25 and never had one of these perverted tests, but I always thought that they were just used to screen for cancer and other abnormalities in the cervix. What if the infection is not even in your cervix? Are your doctors THAT dumb?! 😠 Are you sure this isn’t a UTI? They can diagnose this with a urine test. Have they done any blood test at all to check for this bacterial infection they suspect you have? How about a self vaginal swab? I’ve read about those before on this blog and Women Against Stirrups
You’re right. It’s sad that every time that a woman presents with any vaginal discomfort or stomach discomfort, the first thing that doctors want to do is get her naked and get inside of her vagina when there are many other tests. In today’s world, imaging and other tests are so advanced that a pap smear or pelvic exam should be the LAST resort after they have tried every other test. Sadly, docyirs want to do this first.
I knew a lady who had bad hemmorhoids and she begged for help. The doctor gave her a pap smear and sent her away with no help. These doctors are now boldly satisfying there s*xual urges with no intent to help the woman.
It’s like they are trying to tell us they can see all of our insides by looking up our vaginas and/or anuses. There are MANY other body parts, and most of them you cannot see through the vagina or rectum.
It doesn’t even seem to matter what the complaint is about. A recent (male) doctor, who was filling in for my regular female doctor who is on maternity leave, insisted on doing a pap test for my diabetes and thyroid! Initially, his coercion sounded like he would NEED to do the pap test to fill my prescriptions for those (real) disorders. Nope. I’ve found out since, if he had, I would have both a complaint to the licensing board as well as a malpractice suit.
The lady with the hemorrhoids also had a bonefide complaint against the doctor for malpractice.
i read this today its scary A grand jury indicted two doctors and a third person on Wednesday in an alleged scheme to perform genital mutilation on two girls from Minnesota at a Detroit-area clinic.
Dr. Jumana Nagarwala, Dr. Fakhruddin Attar and Attar’s wife, Farida, are charged with female genital mutilation, conspiracy and other crimes.
The federal indictment alleges the trio tried to obstruct the investigation by telling other people to make false statement to authorities. The doctors are also accused of lying to investigators.
Genital mutilation, also known as female circumcision or cutting, has been condemned by the United Nations and outlawed in the United States. But the practice is common for girls in parts of Asia, Africa and the Middle East.
“This brutal practice is conducted on girls for one reason: to control them as women. FGM will not be tolerated in the United States,” said Dan Lemisch, the acting U.S. attorney in Detroit.
Nagarwala is charged with performing genital mutilation on the two 7-year-old girls in February at a suburban Detroit clinic owned by Dr. Attar.
Nagarwala’s attorney, Shannon Smith, denied the allegation last week, saying the doctor was performing a religious custom that didn’t involve cutting. Smith declined to comment on the indictment, which replaces criminal complaints that led to the arrest of the three suspects earlier this month.
how many other exams did they do?
It’s interesting that people get so emotional about Female Genital Mutilation here in Western countries, when labiaplasty — which is basically the same thing as FGM — is so popular here. The same parts of the body are cut off — vaginal lips and often part of the clitoris as well, but when it’s called labiaplasty, it’s considered normal and even teenage girls submit to these surgeries nowadays. It’s considered okay to get under the knife to please your sexual partner, but when it’s done for religious reasons, it’s suddenly called FGM and people are sent to jail for it.
I’m obviously not saying that FGM is good, but how is it any different from letting your teenage daughter get a labiaplasty? Only difference is that doctors who perform those do not go to jail.
Isn’t Labiaplasty slightly different i.e. just the labia minora, not the clitoris? Also a woman’s choice and not inflicted on her against her will by another persons decision – See link
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/cosmetic-treatments-guide/Pages/labiaplasty.aspx
A labiaplasty is surgery to reduce the size of the labia minora – the flaps of skin either side of the vaginal opening. Some women consider having a labiaplasty because they don’t like the look of their labia, or because the labia cause discomfort. This is a major decision you should weigh up carefully. Occasionally, a labiaplasty may be carried out on the NHS if the vaginal lips are obviously abnormal and causing the woman distress or harming her health. The procedure involves shortening or reshaping the vaginal lips. The unwanted tissue is cut away with a scalpel or possibly a laser, and the loose edge may be stitched up with fine, dissolvable stitches. A labiaplasty is offered as cosmetic surgery or as treatment for a medical problem, with the full consent of the patient.
CHASUK, the clitoral hood is often cut together with the labia minora. It’s extremely painful. I’ve read multiple stories from women who weren’t informed about this before they had the surgery. I’ve read about a woman who specifically instructed the doctor to not touch her clitoris during her labiaplasty, and the doctor ignored her request.
Also, you talk about consent — it’s not consent when women are led to believe that there’s something wrong with them just because their genitals don’t look like those of a five-year-old girl. 99% of these surgeries are done for cosmetic reasons. Women are told to be ashamed of their genitals unless they look the same way they did before puberty. I don’t see how that qualifies as consent.
And what about circumcision performed on babies? There’s no consent there, but nobody gets emotional about that and doesn’t put doctors who perform this operation in jail.
An argument like that would also be saying that waxing a bikini line is like FGM. Some doctor quacked at me that getting a pap test was like getting a bikini wax because both procedures would be done by a stranger while I was naked.
The intention of FGM is quite different to that of labiaplasty. No surgery is without risk or pain. Gender altering surgery must be even worst yet no one protests that. Some people want it done on prepubescent children. For whatever reason, labiaplasty should not be considered “normal”. Male circumsion on children should be a crime. Adults can have done what they want.
Some very good points made Evie, thank you. Personally I don’t agree with any kind of circumcision especially on babies or young children, boy or girl, as no consent can ever be sort from a child. I agree totally that no-one should be ashamed of their bodies or how they were born, no 2 people are the same. The woman who instructed the doctor to not touch her clitoris during her labiaplasty, I do hope she sued him! I can’t even begin to imagine how painful/traumatic these procedures must be, truly awful. What is going on in this world today, it beggars belief!
Moo this reminds me of a woman who posted a while ago her doctor likened the smear test to be like sex! My comments was I bet the doctor is forever single!
I knew it Evie. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.
Thank you for the information – the enlightenment. There is a site from a cosmetic surgeon who does these labiaplasty surgeries. He posted the naked crotches of women who’ve had it – women who, like Nikita Levy’s victims, didn’t know they were being photographed. His guise is to show that the surgery “works.” So he’s trying to say that it’s not for sexual purposes – LAUGH – what a LIE – which is why he’s not in trouble yet with his patients. Or, maybe they have re-checked the site after their surgery and “recognized” their parts. And are now too ashamed to come forward. I hope that it won’t be long before a brave patient comes forward to have those pictures taken down; may even take legal action with courage from the Nikita Levy case.
But, I knew that labiaplasty was just another ruse to lure women with low-self esteem, vanity, and shamelessness about nudity to allow men who are not their husbands or intended lovers to touch their genitals – while under anesthesia no doubt. I didn’t know about the clitoral part, but it figures. The cosmetic surgeon likely can’t resist touching the clitoris and then cuts it off to justify it to whoever the assistant is in the operating room. Likely they have many nonconsentual pelvics in those offices by interns while the women are under anesthesia.These cosmetic surgeons really are no different than ob/gyns who lie and withhhold the truth to get women to spread their legs; they want at women’s bodies, also. Someone once stated that if a man wanted to be a predator that he wouldn’t spend thousands to go to medical school; he would just be a predator. There are unfortunately different kinds of predators. There’s no level too high or too low to stoop that a man who really wants to harm will go to. Look at the teacher who just got caught after running away with the 15 year old girl. The difference between a garden variety predator and a gyn or cosmetic surgeon is brains and opportunity to go college. After all – the parents DID want them to make something of themselves and become rich doctors – a noble profession. General practitioner, heart surgeon, pediatrician et al – not one who makes a living between women’s legs. They also make high 6 and 7 figure salaries (once they rise in the ranks) and have lucrative careers because they haven’t been found out yet (that is changing). So, to them, if they can legally touch women’s genitals for a lifetime without risking jail (that is changing) – and get paid for it – why not medical school; it sets them up for life – power, pleasure, and financial security.
The profession USED to be MAINLY for women who have real cosmetic needs; breast reconstruction after cancer, and such. Now it’s for any woman who wants something done to compete with the beautiful women they see at work, maybe – randomly on the street – in the clubs and restaurants – on tv – in movies – in entertainment. The air-brushed – took 3 hours in make-up and spandex – after a starvation diet before a major event like the Oscars – to get them to look like that – women. Some really may need a nose job or other procedure for a deformity, but not the majority that show up in those offices. However for labiaplasty, they said that it’s for women who’ve given birth and their lady parts are all askew now. Yes, appeal to their insecurity about their bodies after birth and watch the heron go to the pool; watch the $$$$$ roll in. It’s supposed to be for those who developed so-called “abnormally” after adolescence – but really it’s for vain-shallow women who believe these predators’ lies; believing that they HAVE to have this done or they aren’t beautiful women. Do they know or not care that they are paying to be molested. I should have known that they weren’t told the truth before signing the release form and going under anesthesia; that those who’ve had it done had their clitoris’ screwed with – and are now suffering in silence; too ashamed to come forward. There’s nothing to be done to help them now. Even if so, who wants to allow yet another man doctor to touch them (and so far it’s largely male cosmetic surgeons doing these – have yet to see a woman cosmetic surgeon hang out her shingle for this). Yes, you’re right Evie – the difference between this and genital mutilation is the legal aspect and women who voluntarily get it done – as labiaplasty – but because they’ve been lied to. The world screams in outrage over children who’ve been victimized by this and take action; it’s time they start screaming over victimized women and taking action..
Thanks again, Evie.
Be Blessed.
I know this is an older post, but it comes up on the first page of Google results for “ptsd for medical procedures”, and I’d just like to say that having loads of pictures of speculums on a page dealing with gynecological procedure ptsd is pretty damn insensitive, I don’t know about anyone else but those things give me a hell of an anxiety reaction.
I agree with you, anonymous! Those things give me the exact same feelings! Somebody in my facebook friends posted a picture of a speculum; She wanted the women to send it to their male partners asking what it is, and comment their answers on her post. That s.o.b turns up in my newsfeed and boy did I become so distressed that I got physically ill.
i agree those pictures are awful. i have ptsd because of so many exam attemps.
i ptsd any time i go to a dr which isn’t too often U S medical system has lost patient care. IT all about paper work and $$$$.
Sp many suffer from dr ptsd and go unheard.
Someone posted a speculum to my news feed last year saying emplying that woman with stds didn’t know what this is.” Like they didn’t get tested. It worked me so bad and others were going along with it and making fun of woman that” didn’t know what it was.” I unfollowed this woman. It upset me so bad.
I saw this kind of post and they also said that any woman who didn’t get one has a “nasty vagina”. Strangely, doctors on the pages allowed this, but were quick to chime in if a woman said that she would never get the exam or said that it hurt. They quickly said that women who claim that the test hurt were lying…
Yet, they didn’t dispel the myth about the “dirty vagina”.
Did any of the UK ladies see the ‘One Show’ yesterday evening? There was a ringing endorsement for more men to sign up as midwives due to the shortage of midwives in the UK. One guy said that it shouldn’t be seen as ‘women’s business’ but instead be considered ‘people’s business’. If more men become midwives, then it means women’s choices will be curtailed, with more chance of labouring women being in a position of having to have a male midwife even if they are uncomfortable with it.
“People” don’t have babies. Women do. I would rather give birth on my kitchen floor than endure a male MW.
I didn’t see the One Show, but the answer to the shortage of midwives is to increase salaries and improve working conditions, so that more women will want to take up this career.
There was a male midwife on my team during the 1990’s and he was very, very gay. I didn’t get him for either of my births. There was also a male gynaecology nurse when I was in hospital, and I have to say he was the kindest and most caring of the lot. On the other hand, my worst medical experience ever was a female doctor, very much a lesbian, who brutally assaulted me at a smear test. Absolutely couldn’t have cared less about me or baby. I’m very suspicious of men going into Obgyn jobs, but I also know from experience that women cannot be trusted either.
Having read a few accounts, what tends to happen, women refuse the male midwife and then someone young, shy or vulnerable ends up with the male midwife. If they’re happy for the male midwife to stand around while the female ones are run off their feet, fine, but they should never force a male midwife onto any woman.
That means a quiet and private chat with the woman, or tick a box, not embarrassing her or putting her on the spot. It should never be assumed that a woman with a male doctor should be okay with a male midwife either…there are a lot of factors at work.
I read a sad account online where a young couple had a male midwife forced onto them after he’d been rejected by a number of women, they said it ruined the birth, they felt distressed, not at the birth but at the presence of someone who was not welcome in the birthing suite.
My oncologist has examined me without a nurse on several occasions. I’m happy I had my daughters with me. This past year I chose not to go after my mamma gram. I have yet to tell my medical doctor. Felt violated.
Hello! I am entering here anonymously because I just need to vent about this. I am so glad I came across this website and the amazing articles you post about UNNECESSARY GYNECOLOGY APPTS!!! I am a 24 year old happily married woman and I have still never been to a gynecologist, nor have I ever even had my own family practitioner exam my private areas. I am so glad I can come here and know that my feelings and anxieties about this are valid, and reasonable. I have dreaded going to an appointment since I even first heard about it, especially since I looked into what goes on during the exam. I have been pressured by so many women, including some of my sisters and even my own mother into going “just in case.” So… is the female body just designed to get cervical cancer and kill itself over time? Why do we HAVE to have this done if we sincerely feel like there is nothing wrong? I feel generally healthy. I feel like my reproductive system is in pretty good health as well. My husband has been my only sexual partner ever, and I STILL feel that I don’t really need to get anything examined.
I came to renew my prescription on my birth control pills (which I’m mainly using for my once extremely heavy, irregular, and painful periods, but since I got married I’m also using it to prevent pregnancy) and literally the third question the nurse asked was “what’s the date of your last pap smear?” I said “uh, I haven’t had one yet.” Like…??? THAT’S NOT WHAT I’M HERE FOR, WHY IS THAT MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT I ACTUALLY CAME HERE FOR. Then when we were talking about my general health since it was my first time visiting, they said “so you haven’t had a pap smear yet?” I said “no” and they were like “well you really should probably be getting one soon especially since you’re sexually active now” like my only sexual partner’s semen is going to poison my insides or something -_- and they said “we can do that here and get it over with if you want” and I was like “I’d rather just wait, I’m not ready yet” and though I’m glad they were nice about it, why is that the highlight of my visit? I didn’t come here to talk about my vagina. I just want my damn pills so my periods don’t murder me.
I have cried even in ANTICIPATION of going. I’ve still never been, and I just don’t want to go unless I just know that there really is something wrong with me. I can’t get over how violating it is. Also, if you need someone else’s consent without force to have sex with them, why don’t doctors do the same with their patients in doing pap/pelvic exams? How often do they ask men “when was your last prostate exam”? Why is it more “important” for women do get their legs forced apart during a physical and emotionally painful practice than for men to have their buttholes gazed at? I strongly believe that this practice is very sexist. I have so much more to say about this but that’s all I have time for. Thank you for making this blog a reality so I can vent about this!
Hi Anon. we are here for you. Post anytime and get our support Practice nurses are persistant little toads you will have to stand firm with them. Doctors somehow think they are above the law and believe they can intimately examine a woman when ever they feel like it. even if she is clearly upset by thier actions. Don’t stand for it.
My advice is to tell them quite simply and firmly, that you have made an informed decision not to screen. End of discussion. As tempting as it may be, don’t try to justify or explain your decision. You don’t need to and it may result in a long, drawn out discussion.
Nurses in particular, will harp on and on about screening. Cut the conversation dead, and they lose the advantage. It gives you control of the situation. If they persist, you can politely ask them to desist from discussing it further, and ask that they concentrate on why you’re there. If they push again, you can inform them that you need to seek legal advice. Most of the time, they will back down.
All this can be incredibly daunting but woah, it is a great feeling to regain control in the consult room. There are other subtle tips you can use to further empower you such as body language techniques – sit upright, stand up, put your coat on and be ready to leave if needs be! Good luck to you x
Welcome Anon,
Vent away, you’re very welcome, and in the company of like-minded people.
I should mention that I’m almost 61 and have never had a Pap test. I weighed up the risks and benefits a very long time ago, surrounded by pap test hysteria, and decided not to have them. Of course, that wasn’t considered an option, a NO was never respected or accepted, women were basically ordered, misled and coerced into screening.
My husband and I decided not to have children, that decision had nothing to do with pap testing, but I would have been forced to have a Pap test, breast and pelvic exam back then if I wanted pre-natal care. (and from my preferred female doctor)
It’s only been in recent years that these “clinical requirements” at the first pre-natal appointment have been wound back by some doctors.
Also, we knew the Pill was out for us, that consult was routinely used to coerce women into the works, Pap tests, pelvic and breast exams.
So it wasn’t just a Q of making an informed decision not to participate in this elective screening program, my legal right…we were forced to live around this program and testing.
I always felt only a misogynistic medical profession could engage in this sort of treatment of women, sadly, things didn’t change much with more female doctors, I think the unacceptable attitudes toward women became a feature of medical teaching and training.
The language was always insulting and grossly inappropriate, “it’s for her own good”…”a doctor should not be forced to pressure a woman to screen”…”would she prefer to get cancer?”…the criticism was always aimed at the woman who didn’t want to screen, no matter how badly a doctor had behaved. Screened women felt free to verbally attack and judge women who chose not to screen, so that meant most women were silent about their decision not to screen. This made some women feel very alone, like they were on their own – risking their life, being silly etc. There was also zero support for women who chose not to screen, it was only the release of some research by Angela Raffle and comments made by Prof. Michael Baum that reassured me and gave me enormous comfort.
(both from the UK) Think that was in the 1990s…
Coercion was common and it was encouraged, women were routinely denied the Pill if they refused a pap test, some were denied non-emergency medical care, and in the UK, some were removed from patient records. The aim was to get as many women screened as possible, women were treated like mere numbers, the cervix was public property.
it was an ugly, ugly time, I hope we never see the likes of it again.
I felt quite fearful as a young women, surrounded by this irrational and hysterical fear of a rare cancer. It was the hysteria that scared me, not the rare cancer.
Things have improved, but we still have a long way to go…some academics still ponder whether now might be a good time to start respecting informed consent in cervical screening. Why is it that our rights can be ignored when it suits the medical profession or the government?
That’s the degree of brain washing when educated women might suggest…perhaps, it’s time to respect the legal rights of women – but that’s what brainwashing does, people can’t SEE what’s happening, that something is actually unacceptable, unethical and/or unlawful.
My advice to you: do your reading, it’s much harder and never safe to pressure, mislead or coerce an informed woman, that knowledge have helped me enormously in my life.
A calm and firm refusal from an informed woman is devastating to all the tactics employed by this program and it’s supporters and promoters. Head over to our reference area, it’s all there for you. AND, we’re no longer silent, we’re no longer alone!
I should add most women here did not see the research by Angela Raffle, it didn’t make the papers here, the program would have made sure of that, keeping women in the dark was all important. Censorship was common back then, it still happens but not as often.
Anon,
Know that you are not alone. I too, have recently gone to a doctor’s appointment for other (diagnosed) physical problems and the whole visit was spent on them pressuring me to get inside my vagina. My physical conditions have nothing to do with my reproductive system. I stuck to my guns too, and talked to this (fill-in) doctor over the phone the next day about how it makes me question whether to seek medical care at all.
My husband gets pressured too about prostate exams – which have proven that digital-rectal exams are just as medically useless in finding any condition as have pelvic exams.
Interesting that men are also now getting pressured to submit to equally invasive tests! Equality is alive and well I guess! I’ve heard that male exams are pretty common in Canada and some parts of the US. Soinds like musguided liberalism to me! Which part of the world are you in?
Very low key pressure here for men, bowel screening is low key full spot. A GP raised prostate screening with my husband and brother when they turned 50, they were handed real information on the risks and benefits, including over-treatment
There was really no pressure to have the test. Also, prostate screening is not recommended here, both the DRE and PSA test are unreliable. (of course, that doesn’t seem to matter in women’s cancer screening, it’s a plus for vested interests!)
I’ve often wondered why attitudes are so different, I think it comes down to the history of the medical profession, the all-male club, deeply entrenched sexist attitudes combined with power and few checks, meant the abuse of women and their legal rights was no big deal. The medical profession could do pretty much as they pleased, thankfully, that’s changing…
I personally think that some of the thinking around smears and pelvics (from a medicinal paternalist perspective) is that they keep women in their place. That’s not the same line of thinking for everyone, as there are lots of gullible people out there who think they are necessary to save lives. And if they’re also pushing prostate exams in certain parts of the world, then that sounds like liberalism gone wrong to me.
But it’s no coincidence that screening seems to have evolved hand-in-hand with the pill (although they’re not clinically related). It wouldn’t have been hard for men to jump on the “screening saves lives” bandwagon and push their own interests without suspicion.
I think that in their minds, it was the price women needed to pay for their new found freedom. It was done for control, power, money, exploitation and to keep women in their place.
Hi Anon, Stand firm and don’t ever give in. You do not need a pap or any kind of intimate exam! It is not mandatory and can never be! Screening is optional and elective, just quote this to them the next time, “Informed Dissent”, state you have fully informed yourself and have decided not to screen at all. They absolutely cannot force you to do something against your will and you could report them for it! Your family and friends have no business getting involved in your private body parts so be firm with them too, stating not up for discussion! No decision about you without you. Ensure you chat with your husband about this so he can support your decision, maybe if you do need the doctors anytime it would be a good idea to take him with you, this might even stop the harassment. Feel free to vent as much as you like here.
I definitely will when I get the chance! 🙂
And I don’t understand!! It’s like… I remember going in when I was first being prescribed birth control and when I was ABOUT to have my first pap test done, they said I didn’t really need it because at the time I wasn’t sexually active. I was relieved but still… what did they need to do it for anyway. After going on the pill, EVERY problem with my periods have been solved. My mom wanted a test to be done because she said “I just want to make sure everything is anatomically correct” uh, what do you mean by that exactly???? I’m PRETTY sure my vagina, uterus, cervix, ovaries, etc are all in the right place… the problem was my hormones were out of whack. It had nothing to do with my actual uterus and vagina! Because once the pill fixed my problems, there was no reason anyway to get it checked. What would they have to look for anyway, seriously???? For me, I have to be practically on the verge of death before I consider going to a doctor. If you go to a doctor every time you get sick, you’ll just keep getting sick more after that. All they do is give you antibiotics and it kills so much of the bad stuff that it kills the good stuff too, so your body doesn’t get the chance to develop antibodies for the virus that you caught. I can’t even remember the last time I got the flu shot and it’s been YEARS since I’ve had the flu. The flu isn’t even that bad anyway lol every time people say the flu has been going around, I never caught it because my body has finally become mostly immune to it. And since my last visit to my new doctor, I’ve been staying away because of my fear of being coerced into a stupid pap test. Sorry for this to be so long but you know what else pisses me off?? Is that I get more crap from OTHER WOMEN, NOT MEN, if I refuse to go!! Aren’t we supposed to be empowering each other instead of shaming each other for EVERYTHING???? “Ugh just suck it up and do it. You’ll get used to it.” Do you tell rape victims to suck it up and that they should’ve enjoyed it? NO, so why is it so different with doctors?? If we have to consent to have sex with someone, why won’t doctors do the same? “I’m the doctor” I don’t care. That does not give you automatic entitlement to touch my body if I’m not comfortable with.
Hi Anon, you are right about other women being the worst when it comes to bullying and shaming other women to get these tests. I honestly think it is because they feel very insecure in going through it themselves. If the attendance figures dropped to below 50% and they became the minority, would they be so outspoken about it? I very much doubt it. In the UK we’ve just had a screening awareness week and they have been promoting it very aggressively. Uptake is below 50% in some age groups and when women hear they are going but their friends aren’t, they either attend in secret or give up going at all. The game goes into reverse as the attendees are made to feel small and guilty. They are so terrified of this happening that they’ve been running these dreadful campaigns, and it seems we’ve got more coming in March when another load of events are planned. This really isn’t anything men have to live with at all. It really is sexist.
Anon – Women really are their own worst enemies and they don’t see it. For the most part, the majority of non-medical men don’t understand the fuss at all. They think if you want to go then go, if you don’t then don’t. Pretty simple ideology. Far too simple for the screeniacs here in the UK.
Lol anon i think you could be my twin! I love this website too- it’s pretty much the only safe haven i’ve found amongst the storm of pro-gyno BS that women our age get caught up in. Once I started getting to “that age” i couldn’t for the life of me understand why any half intelligent/self respecting woman would put up with all this! I feel like these gals are family in a way since they’ve guided me through the process of being an independent woman and armed me with the knowledge and confidence to say no and really mean it with Drs lol. I am also pissed that they feel they have a right to touch us without consent just because of their profession! Whatever happened to simple human decency and respect? There really is no rant long enough for this vile practice and the brain washed sheeple women who support it instead of supporting each other!
My very caring hubby also deserves alot of credit. We were complete virgins and been together since i was 20. Luckily my periods were never troublesome enough for birth control but we did look into it at one point. He was shocked to learn what the process entailed and i was terrified! He said he’d hate for me to feel violated and hurt by the gyno industry when condoms are so easy. He chose to protect me from them and put my comfort ahead of his pleasure.
I’m now 29 and never had a pap/pelvic exam! I’m also approaching 6mos pregnant and i’ve had a lovely time with my midwife. She respected that i opted out of cc screening and said there wasn’t much point to an exam without it so i won’t have any exams until labor. I think by then I’ll be ok since there will actually be a point to it.
So don’t despair dear! It is possible to live your life as a free woman without submitting to the whims of greedy/power hungry Drs and the insanity of the gyno industry. And if all else fails you could consider projekt ruby!
Ada
I’ve always felt the women who engage in shaming, bullying and insulting women who choose not to screen, have climbed mental mountains. Many of these women had to travel to another place to endure annual, 2 or 3 yearly testing, often with a variety of experiences. (and often a colposcopy, biopsy etc. as well)
It’s almost like they’ve been to battle, they were braver and stronger than others but their reaction to others choosing not to screen is telling, they HAVE to believe these women are idiots or risk takers.
It would be interesting to know how most of these women, including the “survivors”, react when fewer than 50% screen – do they feel even more superior? How could so many women be irresponsible with their health? Or does a nagging doubt arrive that has to be managed by the woman?
Many of the women I know who no longer screen stopped due to the painful process after menopause – the speculum exam meant pain, bleeding, being left very sore, some ended up with some damage – minor tears. Also, a few mentioned the extreme humiliation, needing a doctor to locate the cervix, needing a nurse to help them into position, passing wind – some women have vulval issues after menopause, these women might be sore anyway without someone trying to insert a speculum!
One online friend told me her last pap test was dreadful, the nurse couldn’t find her cervix, then the doctor had the same problem, after a very painful 15 minutes, she told them to stop…she walked out not giving a damn about cc and has never been back, some women reach a point of no return, they’ve simply had enough.
Most of these women were not offered an alternative, they were simply told it was a test that was recommended until age 70 – I imagine now they might be offered HPV self testing. (depending on the country and the doctor)
So if the screening rate falls under 50% – that’s great news; it’s taken a long time to get to this point. The minor celebrities shouting the virtues of testing or talking about their near miss are no longer helpful, more women have worked out abnormal cells are not cancer and never likely to be…
Must say I’m enjoying the final scene of this ugly and harmful play – watching the wheels fall off screening…it’s a great day for women!
I’m loving it too. I also sense panic in some of the screeners and campaigners. More women are also finding their voices and now feel more confident than ever to stand up to a pushy nurse and say, “NO”. There’s little as empowering as the feeling that you (and NOT THEM) are in control when you leave that office.
I also sense that there will be some ramifications when HrHPV testing is introduced. For some, the penny will drop, for others, there will be some major confusion and I suspect most of the militant screeners won’t notice the change.
My fear is that docs will say that the unreliability factor is no longer a reason to refuse screening. They will argue that the only barrier left is embarrassment, which is no reason to refuse screening, which is why highlighting the NHS’ dishonesty over the programme and withholding self-testing will continue to be paramount.
On the unreliability of pap screening, which is just slightly more accurate than reading your horoscope in the newspaper, I’ve had several doctors (2 women and 1 man) outright LIE to my face, and tell me that it’s anywhere from 95-99% accurate, false-negatives almost NEVER happen. What a bunch of BS.
If they lie to me about that, which is easily obtainable information, what else will they lie about concerning my physical condition?
Thank you so much for this, Elizabeth. I think screeners fear non-screeners. The policy of the programme has always been to de-stigmatise the programmes by emphasising everybody should take part. The fact that some people have refused for some time is making the pro-screening lobby very insecure. You can almost hear some women thinking, “so I’ve been through all those smears and others haven’t been bothering at all, and got away with it all this time”.
And as more and more women walk away, others might start to say, “so, is it actually true that it’s not that reliable”, or “so you can self-test for HPV”. Others might even say, “what were all those procedures that I had done, did they actually save my life? Or have I been lied to?” And bam! The penny may drop.
I think this is what the NHS is most scared of. I read somewhere that any changes introduced to the Cervical Screening Programme should be done so gradually. When you initiate gradual changes, many people don’t recognise the immediate impact. The bu***rs are just trying to avoid a backlash.
I went to a very very pushy male doctor, who seemed bound-and-determined to get to look at the insides and outsides of my female parts before prescribing treatments for diagnosed conditions. At the end, he said that he would not hold my diabetes treatment hostage, but still recommended CC screening “because you could die”. Yes, I thought that was a given since my conception. He looked very… strangely… when I knew this was a rare cancer, and HOW rare.
Hubby, who was with me, wasn’t much help, but then he’s bought into the “Pap saves lives” thing too.
There’s a reason men avoid doctors like the plague, and most of the time, they find them just as intimidating as us! Brilliant that you stood your ground. Male dr now knows to back off with you in the consult room.
BBC today: “Having human papilloma virus (HPV) is not rude or shameful and is extremely common, experts say.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47211262
“Charities are concerned this could put women off getting smear tests.
Sara Hiom, from Cancer Research UK, said: “Busting the myths and removing the stigmas surrounding HPV is vital to ensure people feel more confident to book and turn up for their cervical screening appointment.”
“HPV doesn’t just affect women. It can also cause a number of different types of cancer in men, such as cancer of the penis, anal cancer and some types of head and neck cancer.”
Not asking (demanding) men to come forward for regular testing as usual, just let them pass it on to us!
And a video of a god dam test….No need for this!!
Here’s the DM article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6698387/Women-smear-tests-shame-HPV-virus.html#comments
I’m commenting under the pseudonym, JeweloftheIsle!
Yes, I’m there as well!
It’s crazy to see how things have changed over the last year or so. While there are still the militant and ignorant pro-screen fanatics there are many more women understanding choice and overtreatment etc.
They’re inventing problems about screenings in order to give an answer nobody asked for. Because if they admitted women don’t go to screening because the women themselves don’t think it’s worth the hassle, not because they feel so much shame, the world would end or something.
I reckon they don’t want to acknowledge what’s staring them down the gun barrel because it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Admit why women don’t really go, and they’ll be forced to confront all those claims about unreliability etc. If they’re forced to address them, they only have one option, which is to lie to women, because they can’t come up with anything solid to refute all those claims, so they spin a yarn about a nation full of embarrassed and ignorant women. Problem is, that little yarn is beginning to grate and annoy a lot of women who can think for themselves.
Oh, what to do if you’re an NHS Cervical Screening promoter.
Well done to you, your comments are brilliant! But my word are they all so dim with little knowledge! All of them that have been treated feel like they are special in some way, I honestly believe a lot of them actually enjoy the feeling of “it saved me”.
I agree, I think a lot of them like to feel special and are so blinded by that they don’t see the bigger picture.
Thank you! It feels like hard work though! I haven’t been on there since this afternoon. Things have changed a lot. There was a pro-screening woman on there who also believed it should be an individual choice. The two rarely go hand in hand! She also felt that the article wasn’t informative. I thought, how refreshing! Debating with some of these women exposes their ignorance and belief system the more they reveal. It makes them sound really ridiculous when they mention “mandatory screening”. Do they imagine we live in a dictatorship that drags women off the streets to undergo screening? Someone should point out to her that we don’t have enough prison spaces for those who commit real crimes, let alone for women who don’t have smear tests! 😂
https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/178/7/1161/211254
The 2013 study by Vink et al. 2013, revealed that those with CIN 2/3 had a 1.6% chance of developing cervical cancer within ten years and a 12% chance of developing cervical cancer within 20 years. It was not known what the prognosis was beyond 20 years although the median rate of time for developing cervical cancer was 23.5 years. A study in NZ in 1965, that involved witholding treatment from women with CIN 3 lesions, saw 31.3% of them develop cervical cancer within 30 years, but these lesions were reportedly already advanced in comparison to the CIN 3 normally observed via conventional pap smear.
Should have quoted this in the DM comments section but used up my allowance for the day! Will try and re-post tomorrow, although I suspect they’ve stopped accepting comments!
Yes, slow moving, if it moves at all, the very rare case in someone under 30 is usually an adenocarcinoma of the cervix, that type of cc moves a lot faster…and it’s usually missed by pap testing. I’ve heard the argument that women in their 20s should be offered HPV testing to catch these rare cases, but the fact is a lot of young women are HPV+ and produce “abnormal” pap testing while actual cancer is very rare, so testing means you end up worrying and harming huge number to possibly help a couple of women. The Dutch and Finns have always advised young women to see a doctor with unusual and persistent (or worsening) symptoms – they’ve never offered screening to women under 30…that’s far more effective than misleading them into thinking cervical screening will save the day.
We’ve always done the latter, pap testing from teens and now HPV testing from 25…
Wanted to add, most of you on here are probably already familiar with this study. Being relatively recent, it’s still a useful point of reference. Even the authors expressed scepticism anout the 31.3% figure for CIN 3 lesions but I was inspired to root for the study after a woman online posted that false positive rates were only around 20%! So essentially, 80% of CIN 3 diagnoses were accurate. Astonishing claim. If they’re so reliable, then why are we all moving to HrHPV screening.
I corresponded with a Dutch lady online recently. Do you know Elizabeth, whether women are automatically offered the self-test kit, or do they need to request it themselves?
There’s a link on the invite if you’d prefer to self sample and it directs here (it translates to English): https://www.rivm.nl/bevolkingsonderzoek-baarmoederhalskanker/zelfafnameset
A quick skim looks like you send a form to the screening authority and you get sent a kit. All sounds WONDERFULLY easy and non invasive.
This is the booklet the send with the invite: https://www.rivm.nl/sites/default/files/2018-11/96987_009285_Uitnodigingsfolder_BVO_BMHK_ENG_TG.pdf
They can request it themselves via the initial screening invite. I did post the link but it seems to have got stuck in a spam filter.
Wow. What a change from our repressive regime!
Thanks for the info Caroline 😀
AQ
Not really sure but there’s lots of articles that mention self-testing so they certainly don’t have an issue mentioning it to women. My guess is if you prefer self testing, so be it.
Looking at the Rovers Medical website, who market the Delphi Screener, it sounds like you can order it online or buy it at a pharmacy, you might also, get it through your GP.
I get the impression they don’t have our hurdles to clear, there isn’t this insane need to control women.
The Dutch system seems more low key to me, they’ve never offered more than 5 yearly pap testing from 30 to 60…and that goes way back. Compare that to what was happening here or in the States, and it’s like day and night. Now the Dutch offer 5 HPV tests or HPV self tests at 30,35,40,50 and 60.
We only decided it was safe to move from 2 yearly pap testing last year…interesting the Dutch worked that out in the 1960s! I firmly believe, we knew, but we looked the other way, too many were very happy with the over-screening/over-treating regime. Now we’re doing the same thing…HPV testing from 25, and too many HPV tests.
A Dutch woman who followed their pap testing program would have had 7 pap tests in total, and of course, leaving out young women and stretching it out to 5 yearly, they have MUCH less over-treatment. (and fewer “survivors”)
Their programs are much cheaper and more effective…they save lives AND spare huge numbers of women from excess testing, biopsies and over-treatment. (and the health and psych issues that can follow) Consider the burden of annual or 2 yearly pap testing from teens to age 70 versus 7 tests in total, 5 yearly from 30 to 60. An Aussie woman might have had 26 or 27 pap tests, an American woman might have had more than 50!
So the Dutch have always been light years ahead of us…and the rest of the world. The Finns had the same program but they haven’t moved to HPV testing yet. (surprising…)
From the expat site:
“Do Dutch women get routine check-ups? A second female GYN based north of Amsterdam laughed when asked this question. “Check-ups aren’t done. We don’t believe in it if there isn’t a problem. If there are no complaints, don’t fix it. We wait to see if something develops and then call a GYN only after some time passes.” The first gynaecologist added, “Unlike in the States, women here do not get annual pap smears or checks for cervical cancer. What if we checked for every little thing a patient wanted and found a benign cyst? The patient would then wonder what to do. She’d ask herself, do I get an operation, do I need more investigations, do I take antibiotics… It is not our job to induce worry. We solve problems when there is a problem.”
What about routine check-ups during pregnancy? “No pap smears during pregnancy for cervical cancer because hormones aren’t at normal levels then, also during breastfeeding. Plus it takes 15 years to develop cervical cancer, not nine months.”
https://www.expatica.com/nl/healthcare/womens-health/womens-healthcare-in-the-netherlands-100752/
Pregnancy is viewed as a normal, not a medical event, many Dutch women still give birth at home.
Because cervical screening was never a huge feature of their lives, and the attitudes are different, I don’t think you’d see too many brainwashed Dutch women or hysterical, irrational pro-screeners – it would be more…”you want to screen, then screen”.
The Dutch appear to have kept out vested and political interests, they’ve been able to focus on the evidence and what’s best for women and their healthcare system.
I doubt that could ever happen here.
I notice that close attention to value for every health dollar means attitudes are different with premature babies too.
“Doctors in the Netherlands will generally not undertake intensive treatment for premature babies (24 to 25 weeks) with low survival expectancy”
I’ve read this is because these babies are likely to die anyway or be left with continuing sickness or disability, whereas here, we spend huge sums to try and get these babies over the line. I think most here would be more comfortable with our approach.
I think this focus on the best use of every health dollar makes it difficult for vested interests and others to turn screening into something in their best interests.
The value for money thing is interesting. I think it’s no coincidence that (some) attitudes towards screening here in the UK have started to change at the same time as the onset of austerity. The NHS doesn’t seem to want to let it go but with massive overspending, budgets to save and the inefficacy of screening, cervical screening has quite clearly been identified as an early casualty of the wastages cull (not before time). After all, all those letters, summons, lab works, overtreatment etc. must be costing an absolute fortune, and for what? They are probably also forking out for after treatment associated with these procedures; caesareans, counselling etc.
A lot of other things are driving this change also; increased testing ages (25 year olds are more assertive than 20 year olds), more awareness of the evidence, harmed women.
But changes on the inside may be driven by austerity and the need to do “more with less”.
I know this is an older post but am hoping someone might read this comment and be able to offer some advice or insight to help me cope with a recent experience. I am in my 30’s and recently started experiencing prolonged periods. My primary care doctor sent me for a pelvic ultrasound and referred me to a male OB/GYN. At my appointment, he reviewed the findings of the ultrasound which he said was completely normal, no masses, ovaries are fine, everything is fine and his solution was that I should simply go on birth control to regulate my cycles. However, since I was well overdue for a pap smear he said I should do a pelvic to rule out bleeding caused by HPV or any irregular cells. I agreed only because I felt it was medically necessary. After 3 weeks of hearing absolutely nothing from the doctor’s office I called to get my results only to be told that the doctor did not do a pap test and that according to records I had not had a pelvic exam. (!) I am very alarmed over this, and have begun to replay the appointment, our conversation, the actual exam, etc over and over and over again in my head trying to make sense of what he did do then. I made a formal complaint to an advocacy group that oversees this practice and they informed the Doctor of my complaint. Now they are telling me that they do have a record of him doing the pelvic exam (I assume he had ample time after report of my complaint to update his records). The advocacy board has called me three times and made me explain the situation over and over again. After each conversation with them I feel almost reprimanded and yesterday told them to no longer contact me at all, it’s obvious that my concerns mean nothing. At the very least I feel this was extremely negligent (I have no peace of mind that the bleeding is not caused by the HPV or the things he suggested) and I am just confused and frustrated. I really just want to put all this behind me, but I can’t stop replaying it all over and over in my head.
Something strange, fishy, or careless sounds like it’s going on here.
The first thing that could have happened was the person who told you “there’s no record of a pap/pelvic exam” might have been looking at the wrong record, or didn’t look at it at all!
Secondly, we know here that medical records are often changed to reflect something that won’t point to anything done “wrong”. It’s a felony, but it’s all-too-common – and hard to prove!
Thirdly, he might not have documented the exam or sent the pap in for testing. I had that done by a doc over and over and over – on a weekly basis, I might add! Purely for his own prurient interests it seems, as he was “treating” a yeast infection with antibiotics – guaranteed to make it worse (and keep me coming back). I was 23 at the time and not-bad looking. None of these ever ended up in the billing office for the HMO – probably because there was no medical reason for it. Do you have a copy of the paperwork you left the office with, and is the pap/pelvic documented there?
The investigating board has to talk to everyone, and figure out who isn’t telling the truth. Especially if he’s never been reported for it before, it’s your word (an hysterical woman who feels “embarrassed”) vs a “good doctor”. This is a good reason to bring someone with you to be a witness as to what happened.
Playing it all over and over in your head is what’s termed “looping”. It’s a trauma response, and can be part of PTSD or CPSTD. Don’t let it get that far. Don’t put yourself down, and don’t question yourself or anything you allowed to happen. Learn from it, and go on.
BTW, women doctors “game the system” too, but they abuse differently. It’s probably not to see another woman’s genitalia, but it can well be for power. Gaming the system for money is also common.
Thank you, I truly appreciate your response. Unfortunately I did not get any kind of paperwork when I left the office that day, however, there is no documentation of a pelvic in the online records I can access or in the insurance billing — the appointment is simply coded “medical services”, so it is essentially his word against mine. I consented to the pelvic for the purpose of the pap test and from there I guess only he really knows what happened and why. At the very least I feel he or the office was negligent. You are so right though… the only thing I can do now is learn from this and go on. I have two daughters and finding this site has been so enlightening and will help me to educate them, as well as to make decisions to better protect myself in the future. I cringe to think how naive I have been.
Laela, You’ve essentially got a “his word against yours” situation. There’s no way to “win” on this.
Don’t beat yourself up too badly over this. Nearly all of us have gotten here, or to similar sites, after having gone through similar situations, including someone taking advantage of our bodies or taking advantage of our money or our insurance’s money. Or, sometimes all of the above on one or more occasions. Yes, I too cringe about how naive I was in the past. In the future, I may cringe about how naive I am now.
That is why my husband and I always – or nearly always – accompany each other to medical appointments. Even that’s not a sure thing. For instance, I found an instance of a female nurse who had a “photography habit” whereby she took pictures of a man’s penis and a woman’s anus. This is only unusual in that it was a woman who did it: Male doctors with “photography habits” – and later charged and convicted of taking or distributing lewd pictures – comes out with some regularity.
One take-away from this is DOCUMENT. Get everything in writing, including specifics of what was done on what dates, and for what reason.
BTW, do you have any results from that pap smear? If nothing else, it can keep you from having every medical appointment hijacked for the next 3 years with someone giving you a lecture about paps, and why one needs to be done RIGHT THEN – at the expense of addressing any other medical concern you might have.
Thank you! Yes, from now on I will be doing the same and making sure my husband and I accompany each other to medical appointments. There are no results from the pap smear, per the final word from “patient advocacy” he did not send one out and as the doctor that was his call — ironic after receiving the lecture about being overdue…. perhaps it was an oversight, maybe they lost the test? Maybe it was something more sinister, a push for a repeat appointment, I have no idea. Regardless, I have no intention of having another for any reason, I do fear what you describe about future appointments being hijacked over this, so frustrating, but I do feel like I am in a much more informed place to be able to confidently make that decision.
I’m glad that you could use some of what’s on my mind to help you. Right now, it’s not doing a lot to help me: More on that tomorrow.
In the mean time, you or your husband go with your children to their appointments too! Do not let them take the child away for any reason: Go with. If they’re having an X-ray, you can’t go in the room, but stand outside the door. For details see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d47gnF8qjFA&list=PLa22tlrOFszfJiKk40u62ltictZErEmGB
There’s a bigger list of all types of doctors convicted of sex crimes of different types at the Atlanta Courier-Journal.
Laela – Has it not occurred to the Advocacy Board why there are no results from the pap smear?
Surely, if it was deemed “medically necessary”, they’d want to know whether you have received your results?
If not, one can reasonably (and quite fairly in my view) infer that at best, his practice was negligent, and at worst, even gratuitous!
If it was deemed medically necessary, you should at least be able to receive your results.
How can the Advocacy Board justify withholding them?
There are no results to be had. They are telling me that he did a pelvic to check for anything abnormal and that it was NOT done for the purpose of a pap and according to them this is his discretion. The fact that I gave consent to a pelvic only because of the overdue pap is his word against mine. For whatever reason, I had the pelvic but nothing was sent off and there are no results to be had.
I would think it’s pretty straightforward that this is negligent at the very least but they apparently see it as no big deal and have already suggested I should just make another appointment to update my pap test results. I find the whole thing has left me feeling disgusted. My ultrasound prior confirmed there was nothing abnormal, there was no reason for him to do the pelvic except for the purpose of the pap and that is what I agreed to… I don’t know if the office make a mistake, if it was an oversight or something more sinister but I am so frustrated to have gone through everything and have no peace of mind, and honestly it’s left me feeling violated.
It seems to me that he just wanted to get a cheap thrill for his self at your expense Go higher with your complaint to the state medical board and push for a sexual misconduct and get this pervert struck off
Hi there all,
commenting on the original article. i strongly feel that myself, and others included, bad experiences at the gyno cause PTSD. I went to a bad gyno in 2020 where they were incoherent about the new guidelines which is a pap every 3-5 years. Very painfully, i did the pap, cried all throughout the exam and didn’t stop. went to prior gynos and same thing. i’m also small, so i need a smaller speculum, but even that hurt! they were able to do the pap- then a week later “ASCUS with HPV+ result” must be sent for coloscopy. well i refused right then and there. Doc kept calling me and harassing me,even sending me letters. Now, i am cautious and insist on keeping my clothes on no matter what doctor i go to. i even distrust all doctors to some extent. even it sometimes makes me worried about things even if i go to my PCP. Not to mention that it took me writing a letter to cancel the appointment for the next year and in that letter saying oh i don’t consent. To boot though come later i found out from this site that my abnormal pap could be a false positive because i was only 25. The problem? long after i avoid gynos, and relive the truama from time to time. A form of PTSD even though i never gotten diagnosed.