Hang on to your knickers and read what a Doctor has to say on the subject of pap smears and pelvic exams. What follows is a comment from Blogcritics.org written by a Doctor that uncovers an honest and all-male point of view (Warning: may be disturbing to some readers):Apr 07, 2010 at 4:08 am
I’ve read several of the posts here, and just wanted to get a few things off my chest . . .
I am a doctor myself, in a smallish town in the midwest. I’m in a specialty where we do not do pelvic exams, but of course I was trained in how to do them while in medical school. It has always bothered me, for a couple of reasons, but the male/female thing has been the main thing originally. I always got a small, secret thrill out of doing a pelvic exam (or a breast exam, for that matter) on an attractive woman. Because we were told that “it’s not sexual,” “it’s just a medical procedure, nothing sexual about it, no reason to have sexual thoughts,” I though I was weird. I didn’t worry that much because I knew I wasn’t going into an area where I would do exams, but…
Then, during residency, I worked with a lot of doctors in the community, and discovered that, for most of them, it WAS at least partly sexual: they would sit around in the lounges and such and sometimes discuss the anatomy of beautiful women who’d been in, and on two occasions discussed, in front me and everyone else, the sexual anatomy attributes of women who worked in the hospital, nurses and such that were mutual acquaintances. I was horrified! I have to say, too, that many doctors, when I asked (because it bothered me), talked about it like, “Oh, it’s just another test to have to do, kind of boring, really.”
Still, the inescapable fact is that a guy likes to look at a naked woman. Period. Doctors are no different. They like to look at naked women, too. So, if they get PAID to look–I mean, really LOOK–at a woman’s sexual organs, and even better, they get to touch them, well… So much the better! I’m not saying that doctors do exams just to get a sexual thrill, because the circumstances really don’t allow a full-out sexual experience, but given a choice between doing a lung exam on an 80-year-old guy or a pelvic exam on an attractive 30-year-old woman, I’d say most docs would MUCH rather do the latter. They’re only human. They would flatly deny having any such thoughts (in most cases), but deep down, they ARE men, after all.
So, I think sometimes part of what prompts docs to urge women to have more testing is, that secretly they kind of like doing it. The money doesn’t hurt (i.e., they get paid to do it). In terms of pap smears being unnecessary for post-hysterectomy women, they also probably often just don’t know–there are several things in my specialty which GPs do wrong, all the time, even though they should know better. The ACOG recommends that even without doing pap smears, women have pelvic exams regularly, to screen for various cancers that are of very little risk. I’m sure part of that is just the “hyperscreening” that we’ve gotten sucked into, part of it is the money, and part is the male domination of women (gives you a great chance to stand there, fully clothed, with a woman who is naked and in a vulnerable position), and the chance to look at and touch naked women.
My wife (my second wife) and I got married last year, just past age 50 (for both of us). She had a hysterectomy (for benign disease) nearly 20 years ago. Before we married, she got kind of funny one day, then when I asked about what was wrong she admitted that she had had to make an appointment to “get my pap smear,” which she felt guilty for missing for the previous few years. I informed her she didn’t need one any more, and she told me I was wrong, that her gyn had told her she DID need them YEARLY, even though she’d had a hysterectomy. I showed her the research and persuaded her not to go back, ever, to that gyn.
Later, in looking at her records myself, I find that she had a small cyst removed from her back a few years ago. The surgeon did a complete pelvic exam as part of the physical before surgery. A VERY complete pelvic exam. There was no need for that (he did NOT record anything other than lungs, heart, breasts, and pelvic exam on his H&P report). A couple of years later she had a small cyst removed from her shoulder. THAT surgeon (a different one) did a complete breast exam as part of her H&P. My wife works in the hospital, with all these doctors (she’s in administration). She had her first colonoscopy last year, and the GI doc did a complete pelvic exam as part of her exam. Again, no medical reason to do that. She is not unattractive (not a magazine-model stunner, but attractive–I think she’s the most attractive woman in the world, but realistically she’s average attractiveness).
In my office, I am now doing a small study. I’ve asked women who come in (either as patients or as family members of patients) who are aged 30-60, who have had hysterectomies, whether they have continued to have pap smears/pelvic exams and whether their doc has recommended they still have them. I rank them as “attractive,” “not unattractive,” or “unattractive,” being aware this is a judgement call and not really PC (but the ones I’ve judged “unattractive,” I think everyone would agree, are really not attractive at all). So far, I’ve had 14 women agree to answer my questions, and the results have stunned me: of the 4 unattractive ones, all were told they no longer need to have pap smears/pelvic exams, because of their hysterectomies (even though for one, the hyst’y was for cancer, meaning she DOES need to continue exams). Of the 4 “not unattractive,” 3 have continued to have paps/pelvics irregularly (not yearly but every few years, at least), and 2 told me their doc told them they needed them, in one case “yearly” (and her doc was the same one who told 2 of the unattractive ones not to bother with exams any more, including the 1 who had had cancer)–the other 2 never asked and were never told anything by their doc. Of the “attractive” ones (all of whom had hyst’y for benign disease), only 2 have continued paps/pelvics, but all told me their doctors have continually told them they need to come in for regular exams, including pap smears and pelvic exams (interestingly, all but 1 had the same doctor who’d told 2 unattractive ladies not to come back). My wife’s (previous) gyn had told one of the unattractive ladies not to have further paps/pelvics, and 1 of the attractive ones she really, really needs them regularly (and she has, until our discussion).
Make your own judgement there, but that’s one more reason to be skeptical of attempts to get women to have regular exams. If I were a woman, I would not go to a male doc for such an exam, ever. http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/
Thank you for posting this. I’m having heart surgery soon and now I’m forewarned in case they try to pull this stunt on me.
I think as a doctor you would know that your “study” is not by far a clinical study. There are so many reasons beyond just a hysterectomy that would require continuing exams. Im not a doctor just a mom and have had many exams having kids and regular exams or medical problems. One reason a woman would need to continue having exams is the type of hysterectomy she had. Does she still have her cervix? If so she needs exams. And if anybof the so called unattractive women who have been told they dont need exams and still have a cervix then they need a lawyer. I do however think your research should continue but refined clinically with a higher attention to other factors that are very pertinent.
Pertinent…lung cancer and heart disease kill more women than sex organ cancers. Yet…those check ups and exams are not the hyper focus that sex organ check ups and exams are. Pertinent – mammograms expose breasts to 1,000 more doses of radiation than chest x rays…yet they are still being called for every year starting at age 40, despite the AMA’s recommendation to start at age 50 and not yearly. There has been so much intimidation and fear sold to women, because women are compliant. Women do not tend to question the medical establishment…in fact they tend to get very defensive when anyone suggests they should question the male dominated medical establishment. My wife has stopped all these useless exams, preferring to only go to the doctor, like men do…when she is symptomatic.
Hello Eddie Kester:
Thanks so much for commenting on our site. You tell it like it is. I’ve seen you comment once before. It’s refreshing to find men who are on “our side” regarding this sham of an exam. IF these sham artists really were concerned about the health and emotional well being of their female patients, they would push and offer self-testing kits. They would be honest and provide informed consent to their patients – the truth that is – even though they know they know will flatly refuse the “exam.” They know women don’t want to be subjected, but – they’re having too much fun – getting too much profits – having too much of a power trip – female gyno’s included. I think they can reap the same profits with alternative testing that has nothing to do with them going between their patients’ legs and into their sex organs. The person – Mary – that you responded to still doesn’t get that. She’s still – as the ladies on this site refer to – a sheeple. Just as you said – blindly following the male dominated profession of medicine. Every now and again we get sheeple like Mary who think they can undo all of the thousands of comments on this site that are against pelvic exams and pap smears. Truly unbelievable.
You’ll be glad to know that as of 2015, about 80% of incoming gynecology students are female. But I see they need to be educated even further to not repeat the behavior of the current female and male gyno’s. So, this field is becoming not so male-dominated. There are still too many males though at the top of ACOG who make decisions, but they are feeling the pressure to change. Yes, the sheeple deny the truth. They don’t want to believe the truth – for various reasons, I believe they are afraid of feeling the shame of realizing that they didn’t have to let their male gyno put their hands up in them for 15 years or however long they were going to them. They think that since they were overexposed during natural childbirth and didn’t speak up then that there’s no point in having self respect around male gynos or ob/gyn’s anymore. Then, there are the females who actually like the exam – but won’t admit it. They are self proclaimed upstanding members of their respective communities and wouldn’t dream of revealing such a shameful truth. I guess their doctors’ name is Dr. Feelgood. They don’t mind whoring themselves out every 1-3 years to the attractive doctor. I’ve read at least one story from a male gyno on another site who has a patient like that…she stripped naked and refused the gown…but I don’t think he was getting his jollies from her behavior – he wasn’t attracted to her – so he implies – and he was more afraid of a lawsuit I think. I don’t see too many attractive male gyno’s. Their website pictures range from truly creepy to perverted and arrogant looking. Even if there are attractive gyno’s out there – young and still in residency, maybe or silver haired devils – this makes the women who go to them – whores to their gyno’s – and the gyno’s evidently enjoy their harem. Attractive or not, they are disgusting. So, for the women who keep going – it’s a sad and perverted and – deranged reality.
Alot of men with significant others – wives, fiances, girlfriends – don’t know and don’t want to know about this sham of a profession. It’s still women’s business to them. Yes, ignorance is bliss, alright. I don’t understand men who are there with their wives in natural childbirth and allow all those cervical checks by the male doctors – or even female nurses. I’ve researched and found that they aren’t necessary or conducive to natural childbirth.
It is very good that you have educated yourself. Those who find out – find out by surprise and take it very deeply – very personally. Just so you know you’re in good company, there is a site called Topix – How Husbands Feel About Male Gynecologists. Look at the first few years of comments. The current comments for the last how many pages have been dominated by two male commenters at war with each other (the other desperate to get the word out about female doctors and nurses molesting men….it may happen but he picked the wrong site for that…..) and the site administrator needs to get control. But, start from the beginning – the previous comments are from husbands who are devastated, undeniably outraged, and truly heartbroken to learn that for how many years their wives were handled in this way. They see it for what it is – another man in a white lab coat touching his wife’s sex organs. At least one man was ready to divorce his wife when he pleaded with her and he learned that she won’t stop going. He said it was basically like cheating, but she insists on going. A sheeple. It broke his trust with her and their marriage according to him is on the rocks.
Really, really, really appreciate your wife, then, and her decision to stop going – it means more than you may know. Give her an extra hug and kiss. For this, she’s worth it.
Please, Please, Please keep up with our site. By how you’ve handled Mary back there, you’re clearly a welcome asset. Be blessed.
I only go if I were symtomatic. The down fall that’s worth it for me is I hate when they asume question dates of last physicals Pap smears then belittle you for not having them. I think this makes a lot of woman avoid seeking care for unrelated things bc these clinics belittle woman who don’t go for sexual health exams / screenings. It’s absolutly disrespectful.
I read the different sides to the story but in the end I agree with points on both sides.
no one should be pressured either way( to do or not to do) a woman exam.
Patients should be informed of why or why not and how often. Yearly does sound obsessive for healthy patients.
I know I have had both male and female for exams and you have to go with trust level not with the gender. I actually started to distrust ( eventually more selective)medical community because of one exam I had from female doctor. After I reviewed everything from the day. I had realized she was either taking her anger out or teaching me a lesson. This female doctor was the only one available.she was over worked( I don’t have access to that information ). i was not well , vulnerable. She ended up using a larger tool despite I spoke up with great pain. I had NEVER had problems after any exam until this one. There was no need for this exam at the time it was pressured by the doctor like I wouldn’t get the care I needed and was there for.( many of u comment similar stories).
I had even went back to my pcp at the time and they re- did the exam,
confirmed that she used the wrong size. Since that time I have not gone to get a women
Exam. I have more pressing health issues to deal with.
There are a lot of ideas posted. Take an advocate,ask for someone else,look into other locations.say no thanks or STOP if it’s in the middle and something is wrong. Report it if they don’t listen.
I don’t agree to shame a patient in anyway. That they did something wrong by going or allowing a certain gender to do the exam. You have to choose the doctor who will be looking out for your health.
I know there are capable doctors-both genders. Because of my experience with a medical condition I have had to see many doctors over the years. Compare the feeling u get with other exams and it will help u make an informed decision.
I know 4-5 doctors who have done unnecessary invasive procedures which would be considered molestation for anyone without the piece of paper deeming them as doctors.
I know another male ob/gyn that followed his single patient home and had sex with her. She was previously diagnosed with two mental illnesses known to the doctor. That is called rape.
Male gynecologists do get aroused. It happens when the examination is underway, AND it also happens while an attractive lady is asked questions about her sexual health. Discussing the ability to climax sometimes leads to advice about a woman’s g-spot. In NO way will I discuss this with anybody but my husband. Labeling a husband as “jealous” or insecure is blatant disrespect.
Absolutely Susan! I would refuse to discuss my sex life if my doc asked. I have already refused to discuss my menopause when he brought it up!
Good for you Katrehman! If a woman is married, come on get a grip: this is a matter between her and her husband! A male dr asking you sexual questions before OR after menopause is invasive. I have a good friend that was asked by her male GYN if she needed help finding and understanding her g-spot. Her husband was livid!
The exam can be done by a female DR or nurse Practioner. If a woman has time, she can do research, locate a female OB/GYN and respect her husband’s feelings, in addition to respecting her own body. You don’t have to be a fundamentalist Christian woman to avoid a male GYN. Any woman who values the intimate bond with her husband can figure this out… And many are changing to female docs all the time.
You are going too far with this worrying about the husband’s feelings. Stop . It’s not about the husband’s feeling. I think we a women go a little bit too far with this respect thing.
You then made the after thought, “in addition to respecting her rown bidy”. Please do not put respect of her husband’s feelings before respect for herself. That’s exalting the husband. And anyway your husband would not be that worried and concerned with hurting your feelings if it was something like a situation, with a female coworker who may have touched his shoulder or arm and he allowed her to.
Just tell this woman who discussed her body issues with the doctor to think about how she is not allowing respect for herself. Anyway when you visit a gynecologist there may be a time, for example if you have issues, when you need to discuss what is happening in your private area.
Let me see if I can get this right…You are directly equating a woman touching your husbands shoulder to a man sitting three inches from your vagina and then inserting his fingers into it.
Susan in the UK we don’t have yearly well woman exams. I have refused the smear test for 16 years and last year refused my first mammogram. I refused to discuss menopause in the middle of medication review for something not hormonal related.
I’m very much the sort of person, if I wish to discuss it I’ll bring it up. If I’m asked about something not relevant to the issue I have I probably won’t answer. I don’t want details of my menopause typed into a database for everyone to access!
I work as an “Allied Health Professional.” I have in the acute care environment for most of the last 30 years. Based on things I’ve seen and heard, when my wife has her well woman exam I am there, in the room. If they don’t “allow” it we find another provider. Very little resistance, usually it’s the nurse/MA who doesn’t like it. The same goes for any unclothed exam from a male provider. Serious emergencies are of course the exception. As a rule we attend nearly all of each other’s visits anyway, regardless of the reason. So yes, she’s been to my prostate exams as well
MacInnes, I don’t think I will accompany my husband for prostate exams. His physician is a male, no boundaries are crossed there. As for my husband being with me for well woman exams, we have a trust there, too. I only deal with females on this, my physician is female as are her nurse practioners. In discussing anything intimacy related about my body and my libido, that is also only done with female professionals. The only male I discuss this with is my husband, and he is so appreciative of that!
So what you’re really saying is, you assume your husband is seeing a heterosexual doctor and ditto for yourself. If you have questions about his care, you assume he represents you, and ditto for him.
Don’t mean to insult, this is a legit question. Are either or both of you afraid to accompany the other for med care? How do you believe you can advocate for each other in time of crisis if you have no idea nor experience with that person along with his/her doctor?
Do you prefer your husband stay outside your medical care? And do you prefer not to get involved is his care? Would you feel uncomfortable with him naked or him seeing you naked?
At one time I was as you are. My husband but then-boyfriend insisted on going to my gyn appointments. And me to his. He was appalled at seeing me blackmailed into rushing a yearly gyn appt so I could get antibiotic. He felt same at listening to the doctor asking me the same question time again by rephrasing. He became furious at seeing another doctor physically come out of the pre-screen area to check me out before deciding to perform a full exam.
He quickly put an end to these things and began actively advocating for me. In the process I learned to stand up for myself. To treat these doctors as hired help and not as gods.
Then I suffered a spinal injury.
My husband had to quit his job to care for me full time. He has on many occasions got into arguments with doctors, and even taken my abuse before I realized he was right…
Why do I stress this to you?
Last weekend in San Diego CA, a doctor named Naga Raga Thota was arrested for dishing out Schedule II drugs, getting patients addicted, and then taking advantage of them sexually. He’s out on $100K bail and facing 20 years.
My husband never trusted him. He felt this man didn’t respect boundaries. They argued several times as my husband would step in or speak up when he felt this doctor was being abusive.
One of the reasons this perv fired me as a patient was the “over-protectiveness of your husband.”
I hope this influences you and your husband to reconsider things.
I’ve always wondered about that. Dr’s insisting I need pelvic exams regularly just because. Thank you for telling it like it is!
Allison, I am not up to speed or convinced about doing away with pelvic exams. My female dr says better safe than sorry up to a certain age.
I’d do some reading, Susan, I don’t have pelvic exams, never have, and thankfully, they’re not recommended here in Australia. (I’d refuse them anyway)
Knowing the evidence, it’s surprising your doctor would say it’s better to be safe than sorry, we know this exam leads to false positives, unnecessary procedures, and even unnecessary surgery. American women have more than twice the number of hysterectomies and oophorectomies than women in countries who don’t do RPEs.
Dr Carolyn Westhoff, US Ob-Gyn, partly blames the routine pelvic exam for this concerning statistic.
So, IMO, there’s risk attached to this exam….and it’s of poor clinical value, it’s not a screening test for ovarian cancer or anything else.
It’s certainly a matter for you, but I think it’s important to go into these exams knowing what they can and can’t do, in other words, make an informed decision.
I know if a doctor said that to me, “better to be safe than sorry” to justify the exam, I’d be out the door, I’d assume they were out-of-date/incompetent.
Doctors who promote/do the RPE or routine breast exam should be getting express informed consent too, neither of those exams are recommended here, so doctors should make sure they explain to the patient why THEY recommend it and go over the risks and benefits (if any) – does the woman consent to the exam? (after the run down of risks and benefits?)
All the best…
Hi Susan, in a review of 70 years of literature it was found that the routine pelvic exam was of low clinical value in that it did not effectively detect ovarian or uterine cancer and there was not a decline in death rates from reproductive cancers. The American College of Physicians states that asymptomatic women do not need routine pelvic exams. As Elizabeth said they can cause harm in that they can lead to unneeded invasive testing and even surgery.
All good information, good to be informed. Maybe the new female doctors coming into practice are doing the right thing by reducing pelvic exams. By cutting back on excessive testing, etc. The issue of male doctors examining, probing, and questioning female patients is another concern, because more male doctors are revealing that they do encounter arousal when examining and discussing sexual topics with patients they see as attractive. That boundary being crossed is hurtful to husbands that feel the way my husband feels, and I won’t go to a male gynecologist because of that. I get to choose, there are plenty of qualified female doctors, and I chose to honor my bond with my husband. He’s not insecure or overly jealous, he’s confident in his manhood. My body is his to see naked, my sexuality is his to discuss, and no other male gets that opportunity. My choice.
Have you ever heard of a female doctor being of the l-e-s-b-i-a-n persuasion? Male doctors cannot hide their stupid grins when sexually aroused in a clinical setting. Lesbians handle this just fine. So when you find your favorite female doctor performing a very thorough exam for no better than the same reasons than a male gyn would, if she prefers your husband not be near the “business end” of the table, if you notice her questions aren’t much different than a male’s, perhaps consider she may be bisexual or lesbian. I know of people who have been molested by women. Particularly one woman doctor or nurse in an all-female crew.
Try to remember. Authority corrupts, and absolute authority corrupts absolutely.
Women wildly outnumber men in the medical field. Remember this too. A woman high up the chain of command, who does molest, will do so untouched. Any employee who decides to play whistleblower is committing career suicide. With that in mind, don’t have confidence that you’re safe just because women are in charge of your care.
There is a woman who rants about “medical modesty.” She is on the outside looking in at the medical industry. She does not understand how things work. Segregated care, females taking care of females or men taking care of men, invites abuse.
It’s best to have mixed sexes involved in care. It’s also best for family members to carefully watch over patients. Never go into a medical setting without an advocate. Make sure your advocate has your written HIPAA release and can access any part of your file at any time for any reason.
What MacInnis says is right and true. It’s the best protection. Another reason for an advocate is protection from any doctor’s meddling and undue influence through “shared decision making.”
I don’t understand why anybody disagrees with his opinion. I too have seen my husband’s prostate exams. As he’s seen my cervix… I have felt his prostate as well as he’s felt my innermost organs too.
Take an hour and research tantric sexual message.
The technique involves messaging our breasts exactly as is done during a breast exam; including nipple stimulation (our nipples are pinched or twisted). The technique also involves messaging inside our vaginas, checking for knots, tightness, numbness, etc, our clitoris, g-spot, anterior and posterior fornix, anus… What does the gyn do? During the pelvic s/he messages or “palpates” as they like to say, or “appreciates,” (ha!–how sickening-saw lesbian doc say this to an attractive young woman on youtube pelvic video) each of these organs. Sometimes it’s the rectovaginal which supercharges the sexual stimulation our bodies receive.
When the fornix or our cervix itself is “palpated,” we automatically arouse, engorge, and lubricate. Same with the g-spot. And anus. And as we know our labia and clitoris. Did you know that while in the stirrups you automatically engorge several times over five minutes? We especially engorge when initially touched with lubricated fingers before penetration. This is why we’re told to breathe deeply. To resist the desire to clamp down or thrust in response.
A female doctor knows this better than any male. While the male sees this any may be aroused or be scared knowing what’s going on, the female doctor is different. Notice, never have any been arrested, charged, nor convicted. Who is going to believe us when we feel we’ve been molested? Same as when a male has his genitals handled by a gay doctor.
There’s always the argument we became aroused, and wrongfully blamed the doctor. But the heterosexual setting of female patient and male doctor? The lesbian district attorneys can’t wait to file charges.
It IS the doctor’s job to inquire about the quality of our sex lives and menopause. It’s the manner of how this is done vs us inquiring on our own.
You have a valid point about a doctor possibly being a lesbian. I chose a married female doctor, she has children of her own. That’s no guarantee but my sense and my guy tells me I’m not in the hands of a lesbian. But I get your point, well said.
So happy to hear from you. If you don’t mind, allow me to elaborate some.
I don’t know if you trim, shave, or leave it be. Or like me you go to great lengths to be not only neat and tidy but clean enough for your husband as well. There are doctors who deliberately seek out patients like us. If we allow it, the exams we’ll receive will be extremely invasive and lengthy. Have you read examples of that here? Have you experienced it? Or heard of it? If so, please share. We all need to learn from each other.
It’s normal for us to have pain & pressure come ovulation. Yet, if we’re skinny and attractive reporting this leads to the unexpected. Now, I understand if there’s a family history, or a genetic disposition that by a certain age things can go bad fast. But asymptomatic; no history? Have you seen the news stories of a doe-eyed young woman, wide eyed and flushed because you know what exam she just endured. She’s been made to feel like her gyn has saved her life and she’s now programmed that every year, months in advance, she’ll plan for her exam. Her doctor, not her, or her husband nor anything else, now has priority over body.
Words like “possibly serious”, “must rule it out,” “if it were me I’d want,” “it’s my duty to recommend,” “you’re gambling your life if you don’t immediately do this…” and I’m sure there’s many others. It’s happened to me.
An orthopedic wanted to perform a full pelvic as my pre-op physical. My husband said no way; then later he told me about the doctor and his assistant grinning while talking about me. Was that doctor mad at hubby when he got the negative news too. I didn’t know any better. I’d have granted permission.
I’ve seen ob nurses tell first-time prospective fathers they “aren’t needed” in the exam room while whisking the mom to be away. And they wonder why divorces follow births.
My husband needed hernia surgery. Working in the medical field, he shaved himself bare at home. Washed with Hibiclens. At hospital, he was sedated and tied to the table as is usual. Four older, experienced female nurses came off lunch, ripped the untied gown off him, and proceeded to… One began a hand job while another held his testicles. The other two watched. He could not see them as his eyes were covered. He could not move. While painting his abdomen with the orange goo, the nurse who had held his nuts dropped it twice. The second time it hit the floor. She joked about the 3 second rule applying. They all laughed.
Before he climaxed, he flipped them off with both hands. Almost immediately he felt someone approach from behind his head. He felt his IV line move and his arm felt cool. Then he woke up in Recovery. It took six years before he could talk about it. I’m the only lover he’s had. He said there was no way he would give them the satisfaction of seeing him spray. He commented to me the nurse knew very, very well how to rub the right way.
I don’t remember if on an earlier post I discussed how a breast/pelvic exam completely parallels and matches what happens in tantric sexual message. If not, I will explain it. You’ll be shocked.
Long ago we decided to made all healthcare and birth control decisions together. It was mainly his insistence, but I’m glad. This has been very bonding.
We have in writing that each of us can step in as the other’s advocate and make decisions. This was written on a private attorney’s stock. Written to give us power, not the hospital. This was done after how my husband was treated after one of my neck surgeries. A female RN literally threatened to catheterize me if I didn’t urinate after surgery on a very hot day. I had been given a hypnotic. She took a grunt one would make defecating as a “yes.” When my husband tried to speak for me he was verbally abused and made to leave.
I hope you at least sign HIPAA releases for you and hubby (vice versa). If not, forget him being able to do anything for you if you’re incapacitated.
If you attend each other’s office visits, have the actual patient explain that your feedback and participation is desired; and that the patient wants the other to see the exam. Not be on the other side of the room nor be told to leave.
Watch how the doctor behaves. Does he/she become uncomfortable? Not welcome questions? Is the exam rough?
Also, just to be fair. I’ve had parents tell me that gay male nurses were extremely considerate versus lesbians who were cold and unfeeling.
It was my husband who finally respectfully told the doctor I wanted an alternate to pap scrape. It was one of the best days of my life.
You are your own perfect example why you need to self-educate and take control of your body from a medical standpoint. This garbage reason, from a female doctor no less, is the same stupidity we’re fed about pap scrapes…”well, you never know.” The thing is, does she really know anything about you to ensure your safety or to provide you even a hair’s worth of insurance in the 10 minutes she spends with you every year?
Allow me to ask, are you heavy or skinny? If heavy, she cannot feel your internal sex organs no matter how she claims she can. The internal exam, in that case, is done to elicit patient reaction. Do you feel pain? Bloat? Did you know the pap scrape has only 53% accuracy?
Did female doc tell you that? If not, why is she pushing an exam on you that at very best is hit or miss every time? For women, this statistic is acceptable?
Do you know your family history? Do you carefully follow what you eat? Drink? Do you understand and monitor your bloodwork? Do you feel you have a satisfying sex life? Do you climax? If not, have you tried to self-educate as to why?
Here’s another. I require Schedule II pain meds. Not one doctor told me these block sex hormones. Not my gyn. You’d think that person would know? When that jerk wanted to do an endometrial biopsy, I was deliberately lied to as to how painful it would be. Then the idiot tried to talk me into a repeat. Did the doc care about me? NO. It was my husband who rescued me.
He demanded the doc provide me full informed consent. At that point doc backed off.
My husband discovered and informed me that pain meds block sex hormones. My doc? Suggested porn movies and different lubes.
Did you know this? That as we age, our vaginas become lax? Even if we have C-sections instead of vaginal birth. Then comes menopause. Accompanying that is yeast trouble, collagen reabsorbtion by our bodies, our clitoris and labia disappearing, etc. Suddenly my husband could not feel anything inside my normally very tight vagina.
Doc? Might as well have consulted a Magic 8 Ball.
Hubby found out for me I need to have the ThermiVa treatment.
Make your husband or your lover your advocate; and become that person’s advocate.
Forget trusting your doctor. Because, you never know.
The new recommendations have finally admitted that it’s not required.
Also an HPV test every 5 years may soon replace the Pap smear as the way to screen for cervical cancer.
There are new self administered swab or urine tests that women can do in the privacy of their own home.
I have never gone every single year for Pap smears simply because they are always normal. I skipped 7 years once during my late thirties to early 40’s while busy with kids etc.
I also do not buy into mammograms year after year.
Most of the regular posters on this forum have done their research and made an informed decision to forego cervical cancer screening entirely. Its a very rare cancer and while few women benefit from screening, many more will be harmed from false positives that lead to further invasive procedures and surgeries. As for mammograms, while breast cancer is far more common, many of us have also studied the significant harms that can result from this screening and made an informed decision not to participate.
The urine test and the self-swabs have existed for several years. Note the 2017, 2018, and 2019 publication dates on the articles linked. By this reckoning, pap smears and pelvic exams should have been a thing of the past for almost 5 years. Yet, they are not. Primary HPV testing has never been a thing. HPV swabs are taken during the same exam as the PAP, effectively doubling your odds for a false positive, and grueling follow-on testing which is almost always negative, as this is a rare cancer.
In some countries, self-swabs are only offered to some women who have not been able to come in for several years, often when there is some hardship for them to come in.
This is not really about saving women’s lives. It’s more for harvesting our uteruses, while promoting a sort of sexual encounter between physician and patient.
The Trovagene HPV Urine test I had in 2012 was discontinued. Trovagene says it’s b/c of “lack of interest” when they never publicized the test at all.
If you know where other self tests are, tell me.
So you told your wife to avoid a doctor who’s doing exactly what you do: taking advantage of his patients simply because of their gender? Christ’s sake. Straight people are weird.
My wife has recently been to hospital to have a cystoscopy up her urethra. This is a tube that is inserted through her urethra and into her bladder so the doctor can visualize the inside of her bladder. There were 3 male doctors in the examination room and a nurse. I understand why she needed it but cannot get the thought of another male touching my wife`s intermit area.
My wife thinks I am stupid for thinking the thoughts I do and says I have to get over it but I am waking up with these thoughts in my head. I could understand if in the examination room there was a doctor and nurses present.
First, what bothers me greatly re female ob-gyns is how they willingly “go along” with and also reinforce the status quo. I’d expect these women to boldly protect their female patients from excessive and unnecessary pain. But it isn’t so. Sadly, sickeningly, these women also coldly declare certain procedures like the endometrial biopsy or being dilated for an IUD are just horrible things we need to accept. That thinking is malignantly wrong. I use the word “malignantly” not as a declaration of cancer but to emphasize the extreme level of “wrong” thinking demonstrated. Plus, how the same doctor applies this contaminated reasoning in evaluating other areas.
We have major responsibilities. Researching prior to appointments or procedures what to expect. This can be done via youtube. Keeping the doctor’s thought processes, regarding pain, parallel or respective to our own. How we’re given, plus ensuring so, full disclosure so we truly can make informed decisions. This is where knowledge is key. Is doctor being truthful or BS’ing me? Am I really being provided pre-procedure sedation/narcotic pain management or placebo speech? Make sure pain management protocols are followed.
We feel the best way to accomplish the above is to always bring an educated advocate and/or spouse along. Request and sign a HIPAA release; then insist that person is at your side at all times. Tell the doctor your advocate has your permission to comment and/or ask questions on your behalf.
Gordon, this is what we do. These suggestions apply to you and your wife. Remember, you have hired the doctor for a job. You have the right to ask questions and to receive respectful answers in return. This includes an explanation as to “why” there’s more than minimum staffing in the surgery suite.
Personally, we prefer there being mixed sex doctors/nurses present. In medical settings, females molest as much as males do but are rarely caught and never prosecuted. I do not my procedure to be used as a “teaching moment” for other practitioners. Insist on IV sedation/narcotic pain management plus local anesthetic for this procedure. Unless your wife prefers otherwise. Don’t listen to the doctor claim it isn’t necessary, or worse yet, that the pain lasts just a few seconds and then it’s over, or that it’s just like period cramps. Even if the doctor is female, how would that person know what your wife’s cramps are like or what her pain tolerances are?
You can, for yourself, request from your GP short-term anti-anxiety medication. My husband must have this whenever I’m being treated. Even for routine office visits. He’s there every time. He participates in examinations. He doesn’t answer for me necessarily but does prompt me and/or fills in details that I forget. When he cannot be present, such as for procedures in the surgery suite, his own meds are especially needed. For me, he will respectfully remind the doctor to pre-sedate me or to use extra narcotic. Does this help? Make it a priority to have a plan before leaving your front door. Including options in case things don’t go as planned. Make sure your wife knows she must talk to advocate for herself. You can, and make sure you do, remind the doctor if she has trouble challenging authority figures. He should in that case kindly reach out to her several times. He should ask permission first, then if she says yes, he can touch her hand asking her to squeeze if nervous or to measure her comfort level if she cannot speak.
She should do the same for you given your level of anxiety. Caring for, protecting her is your natural instinct. She should appreciate that and advocate that you get what you need too. Be that extra verbal assurance from her and the doctor that she’s ok, full explanations of who’s present and WHY that/those person(s) are present and needed. Both of you need to have guarantees that her pain will be managed. That alone will help you. Plus, that nobody else who isn’t needed is kept out of the room. You both should insist on that.
This can make or break your marriage over time. God answered our prayers. Our psychologist helped us get through these things or else we’d have been divorced long ago.
Dismissing your normal intelligent concerns, will drive a bitter, permanent wedge between yourselves.
We’ve said many times divorces begin in the doctor’s offices and/or the delivery/surgery room.
Surely you understand how.
How did your wife tolerate the procedure? What was the final Dx?
Hope this helps you. Sorry to everybody for the length. We are so grateful and appreciative for these sites. Read the older entires. Learn. Take care of yourselves. Advocate. PTL!
Oh my goodness, I am so happy to finally find some people who think outside the box! Well said!
I have always innately rejected the thought of male ob/gyns. Nobody told me to not like them. The thought just repulsed me. Why would I allow an old, or young , ugly, beer bellied , strange man sitting between my legs giving me advice on … anything! It would be like having a father or uncle or grandfather! It’s gross.
How many times has he been in her position. Never.
And while I have had good, kind awesome female ob/gyns they too do go along with the party line. Maybe all doctors are detached and aloof.
Why did there have to be three doctors in the room for a fairly simple procedure? For a teaching hospital patients are supposed to be asked and give permission for student doctors to look on. But the way they word it and the nurse in pre-op often make it seem you have no choice or you will not get good care if you refuse.
Yes, can’t see why you’d need so many people in the room, I assume they were students/junior doctors. It can certainly help to have someone with you for these procedures, so they can support you generally and speak up if your wishes are being ignored.
It would be confronting to walk into the room or be wheeled in to find a sea of unwelcome faces, I can imagine most people would just accept the situation or complain, and if nothing could be done, (whether that’s true or not) give in.
Even if you make prior arrangements, they’re often ignored, the system just keeps going…
A few years back a friend requested a female anesthetist, her specialist said that should be fine. When the day arrived about 3 weeks later, she found the female anesthetist had swapped the shift with a male.
So her “request” had been overlooked, got lost or was dismissed. I think they know when most people find themselves in this situation, they just accept it.
I’ve heard of this happening a few times over the years – so even thinking ahead, might not work.
So it was a Q of making a fuss, re-scheduling the procedure or just going ahead, she felt pressured to do the latter. The specialist had passed on the “request” but it seems it was never noted on the file or it was removed at some point. Also, a “request” was probably not strong enough, it should have been “Note: this patient will only see a female doctor etc.”
The specialist said, when it was made clear a patient would not accept a male midwife, that might be forgotten too, but if the woman refused and wouldn’t budge, they usually found a female midwife.
The male midwife may have been looking for work as a lot of women from the Middle East were giving birth at the hospital and all refused to have a male doctor/nurse or midwife. Public hospitals here will sometimes state on their website that they might not be able to provide a female doctor in emergency or L&D, but the reality is they usually do for women who refuse on religious or cultural grounds to see male doctors/nurses/midwives, esp. for invasive exams, childbirth, showering, etc. (Muslim women, for example)
This meant other women who simply preferred a female health professional had to stand up for themselves or they were pressured to take the doctors/midwives rejected by other groups of women.
I am honestly so surprised by the reactions of the people in this forum. It must be an American trait to be so neurotic about your bodies because in Europe and to a lesser extent in Australia people there do not make such big fuss once they start to mature. A male doctor diagnosed me with pelvic inflammatory disease. The surgeons initially thought I had appendicitis but the emergency doctor performed a vaginal exam and realised that my cervix was extremely tender. Instead of having a laparatomy, which was the initial plan, they decided to put me on IV antibiotics and wait for a pelvic ultrasound, which confirmed the diagnosis. I didnt have any concerns discussing my sexual history with a male doctor, i am not a shy 13 year old girl but a mature 24 year old with 2 children. So the immaturity in this forum is embarrassing, if you were giggly teenagers, I could understand your reaction but the majority of you are well past that.
You have what is termed the ‘centre of the universe’ syndrome as you are under the misapprehension that everyone should feel the same as you do and if they don’t, they must be ‘immature’. Please do not attempt to shame the women on here with your interpretation of their ‘lack of maturity’ compared to your fine self. The majority of women who post on this site are sick to their back teeth with sanctimonious finger wagging.
If you are fine with male doctors, screening and pelvic exams then good for you. Perhaps you might care to consider in your ‘maturity’ that there are others who are most definitely not OK with this for whatever reason. Perhaps in your ‘maturity’ you could consider these reasons to be valid.
Appendicitis can be treated with antibiotics as effectively as with surgery (but without all the complications and side effects of the surgery). Here’s an example of an actual study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22569747
Oh, sorry, that was so immature of me to look at actual evidence.
I suppose I should not be a naughty teenage girl and ask the good doctor all these stupid questions, like what are the risks of this procedure? are there any alternatives? what are my chances of being helped by this procedure? No, of course, not, I should behave like the grown-up, mature woman I am and just drop off my panties for every guy in a white gown who tells me to 😉
Thank you for bringing facts to the table. Thank you Chrissy UK for the “center of the universe” comment. It’s sooo refreshing. Elizabeth Aust always has great facts that makes everybody stop and think. Adding to that, here’s some advice on seeing a request through. If we truly can.
Besides simply “requesting” our doctor does something, demand him/her make it a part of the “orders” relating to your surgical procedure. If the doctor orders it, then it’s good as done. Usually. You must still chase it down though. Because every jerk down wind at the hospital will try to set it aside. There’s the seemingly “we missed it, forgot, that person is sick, busy today, not here,…” You must call and nag them. Take names of those supervisors who say it will be done. Be prepared to cancel the procedure.
Just because you request a woman though does not mean all is well. There’s the case of a lesbian ENT, chief of staff at a New Mexico hospital. She molested every male she operated on. And the all-female staff did nothing about it. My husband had an all-female staff prep him for hernia surgery. The hand job he received, and stopped them just before Old Faithful geyser blew off its steam, is an example of good girls gone very bad. I’ve said this. Women molest, lesbians molest, and there’s never any prosecutions. A mixed crew is what you want.
Also, the freaks of the 70’s trained the perverts who are training the upcoming nutjobs. These docs openly believe it’s their prerogative to do whatever exams they want on you once you’re out. LIne up and practice pelvic exams? It’s been done. A teaching hospital is NOT a good place for procedures. When your advocates eyes are locked far away, these docs with your parts will play.
A visitor to our sites went on http://www.studentdoctor.com (I think) and posed a question to this effect. These new doctors bragging about what they’ve done caused a shit storm.
The educational system does not bring us the best. It filters up the delusional intellects who believe their god image, combined with student debt, gives them above the law rights. This results in doctors who behave like assholes, not caring about our pain nor kids, not anything but themselves. My husband’s former best friend is the perfect example.
In my opinion, women are not more mature because they see male doctors or immature if they choose female doctors, we’re individuals and will make our own decisions.
I’m almost 59 and have a female GP, I’d request a female doctor/nurse for anything that made me feel uncomfortable. I certainly don’t feel the need to justify that very personal decision nor do I expect a woman to justify her decision to see a male doctor for a pelvic exam…that’s her personal choice and none of my business.
Keep in mind…
For many years, women had no choice of doctor, some (perhaps, many) women were traumatized by the treatment they received, especially, unnecessary breast and pelvic exams, pap-tests-by-coercion and during childbirth. Also, making a complaint was very difficult in the 1980s and earlier so there was no closure for these women.
Many women have kept upsetting past medical experiences to themselves or carry trauma. It’s natural to avoid the same situation again so these women often only see female doctors, some avoid all medical care.
It’s still not easy, even in serious and blatant cases too often the system is slow to protect women and deal with doctors doing the wrong thing.
One young woman went straight to the Police, that stopped a dermatologist here who’d been sexually assaulting women for years, the Medical Board had received complaints but he’d been allowed to continue practising – he was convicted and went to prison for several years. Many/some of the victims will go on to only see female doctors or might even avoid all medical care. Some of his victims said they’d lost trust, once that’s gone, it can be hard to find again.
Some women have been sexually assaulted by males – hardly surprising this leaves some feeling vulnerable when it comes to male doctors and some exams/tests.
Study after study shows the majority of women prefer female doctors for vaginal and breast exams. Up until about 20 years ago, it was hard to find a female doctor, the few that existed couldn’t handle the workload, so women were often dismissed or ridiculed in an attempt to force some to see a male doctor.
So many women were forced to accept male doctors, this can have a negative effect.
Times have changed, we have more female doctors, women are more informed, more are prepared to request the care they prefer and to stand firm – if women want to see a female doctor or men see a male doctor etc., they should feel free to express their preference.
It also comes down to the old comfort factor – just as some men request male doctors, some women prefer female doctors. I really don’t understand why anyone should Q the choice made by another person.
If a woman really doesn’t care about a male doctor doing a pap test or breast exam, why should she care what another woman might choose for herself?
Generally speaking, I hope that over time women might be kinder to each other, less judgment, more support, and empathy – we’re all individuals and will choose different things, and feel differently about some things, end of story. Every life journey is unique, your experiences will not be my experiences etc.
All the best, hope your health issues are being well managed and you’re doing well.
Thank god someone said it. I’m 30, 4 kids and live in oz. I have never had a male dr do a vaginal exam on me before but I’m due to as I have a cyst down there. I didn’t think it was a big deal but ended up googling it and found all this!
Hope you read this before your exam. Make sure you take an advocate with you. Preferably your husband or bf, or gf, or wife if that’s how you go. Tell that person to look over the doctor’s shoulder once the exam begins. If the doc isn’t “comfortable” get up and leave. Period. His comfort isn’t the concern. Your comfort and safety is. And the fact that it will be much more difficult for any doc to take a picture of your genitals with your advocate staring therein.
My husband has caught two doctors in the act. One of my former pain doctors, Naga Thota MD, in San Diego CA area, recently was convicted of sexual violations. My husband had this guy sized up from the first day we met him.
If the doc says he can feel your ovaries etc…well he can’t. What he may feel is swelling in the area or your pain response as he pokes. He will feel your cervix and the first inch of your uterus.
Expect a very thorough rectal exam or the rectovaginal which unfortunately you’ve had many times by now. Variations of the “two fingered salute” as we call them.
They should be doing an ultrasound on you first and foremost. Most likely transvaginal. Make sure your husband is there for that too. The tech will most likely be very rude and insist he wait outside.
Stand your ground. Demand he goes in. Protect yourself.
My husband goes everywhere I go and same with me for him.
An advocate is your witness.
Wonderfully said and exactly what I thought! I am also a 30 year old Australian and have been to a male and female Gyno and found the male to be more professional and courteous!
It’s not being neurotic or ashamed. It’s about the imbalance of power and intimate, invasive gyn exam and childbirth. I would laugh at a man trying to guide me through cramps, birth, menopause.
At 56, I have a great body. I love it actually. But, if I am going to be naked in a room with a man, it isn’t going to be with a fully dressed stranger with his face between my legs. It will be with a good looking, sexy, witty, lover.
My cardiologist and orthopedic drs are men. In their late forties, handsome, well educated and trained. The parts they deal with are neutral and common to both sexes.
Tired of people assuming we are prudish, neurotic or ashamed. It’s about dignity and control and autonomy and simply personal preference. Like anything else in life. Preference.
This is the worst article I have ever read regarding facts this study is not one of a medical setting its you judging people on there looks … I assume you learned all there is to know about paps and pelvic exams in medical school but the real world is different than medical school
Hi Rebecca. I agree with Chrissy Evie and Elizabeth. For years we had medics telling us how we should feel about these tests and downplaying our concerns. We’d just have to get used to it because its all part of being a woman and we should be empowered by having brushes inserted in our vaginas…..and how silly we were. Our vaginas aren’t special or sexy to the medic who sees dozens every day…I for one am sick to death of being harassed to have a smear test. But it annoys me even more when we get more of the same from other women!! If you read some of the posts on here the women have suffered lasting mental health issues from their experiences of these tests. Then we have other women who know nothing about us telling us how immature we are?! Read any article about women’s cancer screening and as soon as someone (usually one of us!).queries the need for screening or points out actually its not so reliable…we get shot down by other women who tell us we’re irresponsible because we might stop others going!!
You are fine with screening and male doctors and that’s good. Let’s have a bit more tolerance for those of us with different views!
I really respect that you made this and addmitted things about yourself, thanks for the forewarning.
What I find laughable is that every time time I see an add trying to coax me (near again) back into stripping naked in front of doctor man, it’s a women doctor in the picture, when you
know, 8 out of every 10 times its going to be a man! Why is that? why don’t they advertise a man standing along the stirrups with the goofy smile!? That is a more real ascertain of the event.
Yeah. Agree. That goofy smile reveals the erection he thinks we don’t know he already has. Besides the sight, our smells drive men crazy. My husband digs my smells. If the doctor isn’t getting decent sex, these exams drive him to the breaking point. As we all know anyway.
Lesbian practitioners, aroused or not, can keep a straight face. They get away with it because they also know how far they can go.
Did you know, in the “rack” as I call it, we engorge at least every two minutes? That means we involuntarily distend our clitoris’ and bloom our labia, we also lubricate. Whether we’re terrified or relaxed. My husband has asked me if I knew it was happening and I had no idea.
If the doctor squeezes your nipples, that’s another “trigger” that causes involuntarily arousal. The “two finger salute” or internal exam, whether it’s vaginal or rectovaginal, also causes us to arouse and lubricate. Every single erogenous point, especially our anterior and posterior cervical fornix. which give us the full feeling and can trigger a third type orgasm, are palpated.
Why are we told to breathe deep and “relax?” Because our vaginas, our bodies, want to react sexually to the stimulus.
It’s automatic that young women are given thorough exams because of the mutual arousal. Only we aren’t there to be aroused. It’s a win-win-win for the doctor though. Plus he’s paid to prostitute us for his own gains.
Again, I agree! There is definitely a sense of power, ownership of the woman’s body and what they do to it.
There is no way that male drs don’t in some way enjoy their dominance. They go to work and walk into an exam room all day every day to a naked women under paper down and sheet. They hover over you and exam your breasts while making small talk, like this is normal.
Then, they tell you to scoot your bottom down and drop your knees wide apart. That position is submissive and visually arousing. Same while giving birth. Legs in holders and spread wide.
Yes, they also see unattractive patients, but it’s still a weird thrill I think for them. Who gets to do that thousands of times? No normal man or doctor.
I have never even seen a male gynecologist. Anywhere. My practices have always been all female.
A patient forwarded me a link to this (surprising) page. I’m a male primary care doc.
Ever since med school I’ve cringed at the thought of pelvic exams. It is just so unnatural to me. I routinely defer screening exams to my female colleagues and use a chaperone if needing to examine something (like a cyst in the groin area).
I completed 2 years of surgery training before changing to internal medicine. I’ve seen countless nude bodies and have been around literally hundreds of men (and women) who were present during such times. Save the rare exception where a patient had unusual anatomy (e.g. male with an unbelievably large penis or female with some type of something that somehow was unusual), I can’t say that I’ve ever heard colleagues saying anything about a patient’s body in a sexual manner. Either the author of the article or I is living/working at the end of the spectrum when it comes to human behavior.
To be sure, medical people are human, and there are deviants in all walks of life, but the baby shouldn’t be thrown out with the bath water.
In my training and practice, women are encouraged to always be accompanied by a friend or family member for examinations. Moreover, most of my female colleagues, too, use a chaperone when examining women, regardless of who accompanies the patient.
Otherwise, the bad science recommendations contained in the original article and in many of the responses are why I’m giving up my career in medicine. It’s a tall order to try to offer to patients the ‘understanding of the science’ (not knowledge) that physicians are taught. It’s quite another to spend the majority of a clinic consultation trying to explain why this or that read on the internet isn’t particular to one’s health concerns.
Wow! You were an internal medicine specialist although you completed two years of surgery training. Presently you work as a primary care doctor (family physician) right? Now you decide to “give up” your career in medicine because your patients use the internet. Somehow the $$$ sense of this all is just not in my understanding. Maybe your next job will be selling fire extingushers to people whose pants are on fire.
It should be standard practice to have an assistant in the room for any sensitive exam or procedure, but unfortunately, it’s not. I now avoid my GP because of the nurse’s hostility toward me after I declined to consent to a breast and pelvic exam. She was clearly not pleased with me and left the room with body language that showed her frustration and/or disgust. Once out of the room, she told my GP, who then came in and tried to convince me to consent. I explained my reasons for declining, but nothing I said was acceptable. My GP was also clearly frustrated, and I have to wonder what was written in my file.
What it comes down to is this: we don’t HAVE to have these sorts of exams. They are optional screening exams for cancer. The keyword is OPTIONAL. I might choose to have a pap test every 5 years or so (or maybe not because I am HPV- with no history of reproductive cancers in my family), but I will always decline a pelvic exam because I don’t want my GP’s fingers inside me. I can do my own breast exams because I am more familiar with my body than my doctor is.
I don’t need good or bad science to convince me of my rights to my own body.
I’ve read some interesting posts here.
Firstly, with regard to coercian by parents and professionals who force their offspring and their patients to subject themselves to undergo unnecessary intimate exams, the arguments used are similar to parents and “professionals” who commit female genital mutilation. This often boils down to it’s “normal” or “we all have to have it done” or “I had it done so you’ll have it done.” These attitudes seem to particularly prevalent in the USA.
Secondly, sexual response in males and females is caused by the autonomic nervous system. This is something that is largely acts unconsciously. Our reactions can be dulled but if someone pushes all one’s buttons one will get aroused to a greater or lesser extent. “Professional distance” in these circumstances really doesn’t exist. It is stated ad nauseum that it is normal for a patent’s penis to become erect as a result of an examination or procedure. Somehow, a practitioner’s penis is regarded as immune from this.
Thirdly, professionals who have never heard a colleague admitting to sexual arousal are probably listening in the wrong places. You see, there are three significant words, “fitness to practice.” An act that is not necessarily criminal can initiate fitness to practice investigations.
Fourthly, even the discussion of these matters invites discussion by fantasists. Obviously, medical fetishists also fantacize about being patients. This includes fantasy about orgasm being induced by professionals and a broad range of sexual acts.
What is quite obvious in these days of sharing our most intimate sensations on the internet is that an unknown percentage of practioners have a medical festish. Some practioners also function as “play doctors” and some are even moderators on fetish sites. These people believe that they can separate their fetish from their profession.The extent of this has been inadequately researched and one obvious problem with designing such research is those three significant words.
This fetish is disturbing at a number of levels. Not least is the discussion of paediatric examinations, often in the context of recalling childhood experiences, that clearly provoke a sexual response. Medical practioners are among the moderators on sites where such experiences are discussed. Anyone who doubts the erotic nature of medical practice should search for a “training” film of a physical examination of a woman produced by Rhône-Poulenc.
Researcher, Thank You. It’s refreshing, an honor so rare that experiencing it is almost sacred. A medical professional expressing an objective opinion re his/her field. Your average day, does it include clinical interactions? There is something different here. You’re an insider looking inside and around, w/o your observations driving you to some secretive paranoia. I want to know, WHY?
What’s influenced you to speak out? Personal experiences? Professional observations? Lunchtime talk? Your disappointment in learning how things really function?
Personally, hubby and I are exceptionally grateful for your time here.
Far as I know, nobody has explained nor even mentioned “fitness to practice.”
Looking at our own experiences, those three words are like gold.
Doctors are expert at tight-roping boundaries via the “ruling it out” and likewise phrases. And legally they can easily claim no laws broken.
However using these three words, plus “intent,” patients finally have a method to turn complaints into red flags. Which can morph into violations.
Let me start by saying… Wow. Just wow. A majority of the people in this forum are insane. Seriously people, I find your reactions to the medical community very odd and vaguely offensive (I am a third year med. student in FL). Do you actually believe that medical professionals are a bunch of perverts just dying to get a look at your genitals? This may sound haughty or arrogant (don’t really care), but due to our profession and the associated intellectual prowess and financial assets that come with it, we are generally fortunate enough to have very attractive and desirable partners… Why in the world would we need to see your bodies naked for sexual gratification?? Get over yourselves. Also, it is a job, period. Since obviously no one here has any real clinical experience, you’ll just have to trust me when I say that the required clinical detachment we cultivate really doesn’t allow for any inappropriate thoughts, much less behavior! I do have to express my gratitude for the chuckles I got in reading these responses though!
Have you ever been sexually harassed by a doctor? I have, on multiple occasions. If those doctors’ partners were so much more desirable than me, then why did those doctors assault me instead of acting professional and addressing my medical issues? Obviously there are some doctors out there who behave professionally, but I have yet to meet them.
As have I as well .I was diagnosed with severe anaemia and really feeling ill but all the doc could be bothered about was getting me to have a smear!
Insane? No. Tired of coercion? Yes! If I say no to taking my pants off and spreading my legs for you, then the answer is no! I am HPV- with absolutely zero family history of any reproductive organ cancers. I don’t smoke. I don’t drink. I’ve been with my husband for 9 years. My decision to decline further cancer screening is just that– MY decision. MY choice. Whether you like it or not, many women have very strong feelings about these screenings. We’re upset about the medical community’s seeming obsession with Pap smears and mammograms. These things should be offered but not pushed, and medications should not be tied to compliance.
If the “required clinical detachment” doesn’t “allow for inappropriate thoughts, much less behavior” how come there are hundreds of documented cases of abuse by doctors? Check out this article:
Anonymous: Are you really a so-called med student in FL? Not an anesthesiologist in another state? Almost seems as if I know you. Let’s discuss things in same order as you list them. Your education. Getting to your level, straight A’s must be earned resulting in a college BS in biology or something close thereof. Next comes endless applications, showing your fake interest in human cultural aspects etc, then four years of university level, tortuous med school including clinical work experience. A best friend from high school went this route. So I know first hand your experiences–and how it changes you–but NOT for the betterment.
Here you “learn” how to detach yourself from reality. From people’s suffering. In total exhaustion state you are browbeaten. Constant threats of being shit-canned from the program. In which you’d be forced to find (impossible) alternative ways of paying off $250K student loans. Success is measured at becoming the god-complexed asshole who doesn’t give a shit about anything but him/herself. Your patients? Curing them simply reinforces that now you’re “god.” You’ve achieved the power of god.
This doesn’t mean you don’t cure disease or save lives. You do. That’s appreciated. The problem is obvious. Just look how you address us while blowing immaculate smoke up your own ass. Anybody who dares to question you is instantly wrong, insane, ludicrous. To be laughed at then dismissed after a good lecture. Something that should make them feel guilty at, for a split second, thinking you are anything lower than a perfect, educated, rounded individual, do-gooder god. You alone are self appointed to act as judge, jury, decision maker. You think you’re smarter than the rest of us—so long as we never discover out the truth behind your facade. How do you attend church on Sunday w/o spontaneously combusting? You hate everybody save other doctors.
So you think you told us off? Aren’t you special?
So long as you’re wearing the special white lab coat. Free parking. There IS something called free lunch for you! Hey hey hey! “Doctor” they all call you. Those minions at my feet you think. Your mere words can get them hired or fired. Daily you ponder,should you donate sperm? Your idea of charity lifting the world up to your level.
Now you learn that something else comes with your god power. You can make people do and believe anything. You can make them ask you to do anything to them you want to do. So long as you use these words. “Rule-out. Potentially serious; could even become life threatening. Standards of care. Routine physical exam. May be mildly uncomfortable.” Telling them bullshit like you “must” make sure everything is working right, once every year or you could be sent to jail. To patient: “you wouldn’t want that would you? Or the direct threat, “DO YOU WANT TO DIE A PAINFUL DEATH FROM CANCEr?!” You are trained to deflect any criticism of the system, the rules you helped form and enjoy enforcing, toward the unseen “rule maker” of the hospital, the government, whatever it takes to suddenly endear you as best friend to the patient whom you want to make comply to your wishes. Yep, you say, I hate those rules but I have to perform these exams…think how I feel. [oh yeah, great!] And that especially applies to one thing. If you’re a man, it’s to induce young good looking women to strip naked, place their feet into stirrups, and spread their legs for you. If you’re a woman? Sometimes the same things. Afterward, the go-to cover-your-ass-statement, “I just saved your life. Aren’t you glad you listened to me?”
You go to great lengths in co-opting your nurse assistant to your thinking. If she is your own practice’s nurse, you make sure you personally perform her intimate exams. Maybe give her an orgasm? Instantly you’re between her and her husband. Their marriage technically over at any time you wish her to move out–and in with yourself. Ingratiate yourself to her as best friend. Learn all about her marriage, its problems. You may even have sex with her. Right on that exam table; using those stirrups.
Otherwise, you make sure to isolate the young woman away from her bf (which is easy) but doing so with the always suspicious husband is another problem. Takes extra “bait and switch” talk or outright lying. Sure, what you’re gonna do is “strictly routine” to you…but not to them. The female is scared to death by this time. You use this to ensure she’s quietly compliant to do what you want and get the male partner out. She is programmed to make nice, cooperate, and resigns herself as she’s also been trained to try to get through it as quickly as possible. She expects you to pinch her nipples, and she detaches herself while you perform a medically condoned rape.
How can I say that? I have clinical experiences. I also have seen your type behaving badly. Every time you maneuver a female into exams which aren’t medically warranted (although you create all sorts of subjective reasons to justify them) it’s a medically condoned rape.
This is when you justified making up for all those years you didn’t get laid. Now you get paid to take a long tour all over her body. Your training has taught you how to hide that ear to ear smile. Your erection? Fear of getting caught takes care of that until you have privacy to milk yourself.
You will think up every reason possible to visualize, smell, touch, stimulate, and enjoy every sexual area on her body. She will leave upset, mad, confused, frustrated, and involuntarily aroused. She’ll thank you while avoiding eye to eye contact. Which amuses you greatly. Which to you is all in a great day of work. Yeah, you get paid too. What a charge you get, a rush to your ego, knowing you can push all her sexual buttons, winding her up. She’ll go home and vent all this anger on her loved ones. These continual violations; you’ll one day answer for them when you face your life review. You’ll understand the meaning of “malice” then.
Meantime, she has to whore herself out to you yearly just to enjoy sex w/o pregnancy. What a terrible price to pay. Equally demeaning to husbands. Cudos to those getting vasectomies.
Each time you do this you go back to that first thrill. That first throbbing erection, muzzled inside your slacks. That day back in med school when a college coed earned a few thousand dollars to allow a half-dozen gonna-be doctors to perform their first pelvic exams. While you and your buddies didn’t have time to masturbate the last two plus years…that’s the first thing you go do once back in your room. And that feeling, that excitement, never leaves your brain. Every time you get to repeat the experience, your brain again replays, relives the endorphin release…
A woman’s body is a wonderland all right.
This is why you refuse to ever, ever, talk negatively about your “colleagues.” You will never report them for anything no matter how egregious. The OR is a great place to explore. Patients are tied down, naked, and asleep. No family witnesses. Employees are too scared to report as they’ll be blackballed. You will abide by, you will enforce the “code,” you will say whatever to hammer anybody who utters an accusation into the gutter. After all, it’s always to further medicine.
You will dismiss anything they say, no matter how factual. You will answer only in your own invented reality which suits the ending you seek. Bending reality for your own means. You’re a doctor, you have the power of god. Your word will be respected, believed. Anybody else? Hahaha. They will be viewed as if crazy.
This is also how you pigs get into taking pictures of your patient’s genitals. Your god complex prevents you from respecting any boundaries. You want something to take home, so you can relieve the thrills at your own leisure.
As for us patients being insane? That’s almost hilarious. What’s insane is the power imbalance that allows this to continue. One generation of badly behaving doctors trains the next. Etc.
Incidentally, your university text DOES address the subject matter concerning how you handle your erections and urges. Because those never go away. Instead, they amplify. Your drive must be somehow reeled in and checked. Then discreetly released! The text instructs you to recognize that your body will react but you must ignore it. You are advised to “talk things over with a colleague.” Like what? Is there some kind of AA version for docs who can’t deal with constant arousal during clinic?
Your own insanity comes into play. When you go home.
Now you’re no longer a god. You are husband. Your wife does not have the fancy prepped, trimmed or shaved vagina that smells and feels so good (like what you felt up an hour before) that it makes you drool. Has she had kids? Oh, poor you. Now you can’t even provide her the thrills you used to do. And you are too stupid to know, understand, nor even really care why. Must be her fault. It’s her problem to correct. After all, you’re a doctor! You deserve more respect in your own home than this… If you’re married to your former clinic nurse then you have to live with her constantly checking up on you. Fact is, you don’t care about her anymore. When you can get pussy elsewhere. Practically thrown in your face. Or you can simply help yourself to it in the OR.
You’re a doctor, you deserve that. You worked so hard. All those years of sacrifice.
You cannot handle life outside your clinic or hospital. You hate paying out money because it reminds you of the frugal life you had while a student. You hate the demands of your patients and the stupid things they always do. You hate your seemingly ungrateful kids as much as you’ve come to resent your wife. Why did you marry her? Who is she now? Who are YOU now?
Then you notice your wife primping. But come bedtime, she’s got your 9-yr old in bed almost nightly between you and her. [her sexual bodyguard so she doesn’t have to be touched by you because she is revolted by your presence let along your naked body]
One day you find out that statistics you swore you’d avoid you’ve become. Your marriage is now included as part of the 60% divorce rate among physicians. Next comes midlife crisis. You review everything from college to that moment. However, your god-complex prevents objective self examination.
You don’t understand. And you can’t heal thyself. Maybe if only you took seriously the promise you made, “physician, do no harm.”
What do you do? Seek counseling? No. More hours “saving lives” and complaining that people don’t aspire to live life as you do.
You indeed have intellectual prowess, but you aren’t intelligent. You are ambitious, ignorant, very arrogant, and your god complex reinforces it all. Thanks for admitting you “don’t really care.” You’ve provided us a true template of the so many male physicians roaming hospitals, clinics, eventually find their way to so many state prisons finally serving time for their sexual offenses.
Perhaps you could go visit one? You might learn there that those once-mighty gods are now very humble, desperately trying not to be noticed and never to be seen.
As for laughing at us? Your laughter is your best, and loudest attempt at hiding your insecurities.
The real sadness to this is that the attitudes you present here are what prevent legitimate medical advances from moving forward.
Such as terminating pap scrapes and pelvic exams. Pap’s are only 53% accurate. There’s so many alternatives. IF you respected women, you’d immediately campaign to change your entire industry from the delivery room to how vaccinations are given at pediatric clinics.
Now you know what a typical doctor is.
Well anonymous I’m really glad the distress and fear the women on here have expressed by their experiences with your colleagues made you chuckle. Obviously the lessons about detachment sunk in if nothing else. I hope for your patients sake you don’t go into psychiatry. ..mm
I’m just glad I found this site. Its given me real confidence to stand up to the cervical zealots who are obsessed with screening.
I was hurt by doctors I am not insane. Just hurt. If you have read our posts carefully you will see a lot of women have been hurt and are just so glad of this site to come and vent to other supportive women. Long may this site continue. I don’t know what I would do without it.
Hi Kat glad your OK. What are you up to. i have been fund raising to help a group of 6th formers go to Ecuador to have a go at some teaching over there. Also I am revamping my garden. Have been doing really well.
Hi Linda! Wow u been busy….sounds good though. Come do my garden lol!
I’m good thanks. Sciatica is bearable! I’m still avoiding doctors as much as possible. Look forward to your new book. Glad you’re healing x luv kat
So pleased for you that some of the responses on here made you laugh. What a lovely human being you must be. This site is one of the rare places online that women feel safe to post their experiences and not be chided, belittled or mocked, so thanks for that.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt by taking your word for it that you are a medical professional rather than the troll that your post indicates.
If you are indeed a medical student then I honestly pity any woman that crosses your path, as you possess all the worst ‘qualities’ of the worst kind of medic. Arrogant, unfeeling, patronising, judgemental and naïve. And yes, I know you don’t care. Another fabulous ‘quality’ that will of course be of absolutely no benefit to the poor souls who encounter your ‘care’.
It is very disappointing to see evidence of another cohort of medical students that will exit their training with such an appalling lack of intellectual and emotional maturity that is apparent in your post.
It figures. It’s just as expected.
Anonymous is just one of another med students – with no clue. I waited to respond. I wanted our
veterans to tear Anonymous down. They have more right to do that than me. But, even though our veterans and newcomers who are so enlighted have come down hard on Anonymous, Anonymous hasn’t responded at all. Just another commenter trying (if only they knew how in vain) to try and sway us. If he doesn’t return to read all of your testimonies and realize he’s a disgrace, then he will learn. It’s ironic that he commented on a blog that was begun by one of his male colleagues who very valiantly told the truth about how ob/gyns really are; how they treat our bodies as sexual objects and talk about us like dogs after so called exams. The so called 3rd year med student Anonymous (I want to say Dr. Giggles – but that would suggest he succeeds) is a coward hiding behind the fact that he made medical school paid for by some benefactor – who will learn by painful experience. No woman will stay with him in his practice – they will gradually leave. The sheeples leftover won’t make his practice lucrative enough, as he says. He will one day have to decide – to get out of it and be a dentist (no offense to dentists) – or intensify the lies and see where it gets him. Med students are exposed to different kinds of medicine before landing on a decision on profession, so – he has time. Actually, unfortunately alot of failed ob/gyns get out and become IVF specialists with captive audiences of desperate women who are so desperate to have a baby, they will do what he says. I notice that it’s still mostly males that do that. Yes, perverts, as they insist on transvaginals and such. Thank the Lord, many males have awakened before he has and decided not to be ob/gyns or IVF specialists. I think the operative words are – liability, lawsuit, and jail.
I’m going to venture to guess by the flagrant comments that Anonymous – is a young guy – male. A woman in med school who could be so reckless would be an absolute disgrace. His comments show that there’s no empathy at all for the female body – so it has to be a male. This male will learn. So, he’s taught to be detached. I’d like to be a fly on the wall when a young 25 year old comes in his office – one who looks like one he likely had sex with on spring break – and watch him be – detached – from her breasts and legs in stirrups. Or the 15 year old whose clueless sheeple mother dragged her in there. Is he going to laugh his genitals off at her fear? Since this is so funny to him? I ask what kind of male – what kind of fratboy decides after so many keg parties and sex with young nubile females – or better yet – a nerdy fratboy who the young co-eds won’t go near – decides to make his life’s work at age – 20 – to be up to his head in women’s bodies. A perverted one. Spare me the weepy violin music and his teary speech about how he says he has female family members who died from “female” cancers or my favorite – how he wants to be a part of bringing life into this world. PLEASE. Without even having yet graduated, he’s a disgrace to his family.
He says that because he’s taught – detachment (which in itself means they are attracted to the attractive female patients )- and that the practice is so lucrative (because of sheeple – does he know – that pool is shrinking) – that he can get – he implies – women to date and marry him. What an unimaginable bastard. These would be foolish women who don’t realize that he can’t help but fantasize while their having sex about the attractive patients he gave bimanuals to. He thinks that because learned detachment, that gee – we should all run shaking and jiggling to the nearest gyn’s office to gleefully take off our pants and let them finger us. He says it’s just a job. Yes, when the 25 year old co-eds and attractive oedipal older women are in short supply; he gets the ones with bad hygiene and the unattractive ones – in his eyes – then yes, it becomes a real job. No playtime then. Have to use them to get incentive payments. Have to get past them to get to the attractive ones.
Get over ourselves, he says. He needs to get over HIMSELF. Why then lie to females and tell them he has to have them in stirrups. Why not tell them cervical cancer is rare and they don’t need stirrups to get birth control. Why not learn about or question in his rotations about self-testing. Skip the pelvic and offer the real diagnostic tests – blood work, CT Scan, urine test. No, he thinks we’re fools and will believe his earnest face. Incredible. I guess he’s so vested in graduating, that he thinks it’s too late to turn back now. Maybe his parents – wealthy or hard-working – have invested too much money for him to fail; maybe has scholarships and doesn’t want to lose them. Maybe he does shady things – he’s a male stripper – or something – to pay for medical school. Maybe he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and is totally clueless about the real world. Any way, he’s worthless – and he hasn’t even finished residency yet. I’m reminded of Sean – Robin Williams character in Good Will Hunting – when he did the scene with Will – Matt Damon’s character. Please tell me you’ve seen the movie – I know they show American movies on the BBC. In short, he dismisses this cocky, but gifted boy who he’s charged with giving therapy to; who at first opportunity, tore his life apart. He said he thought about him all night. But when he realized that he’s just that – a cocky boy – one that he can learn about; learn what he knows from books – like this Anonymous – he dressed him down. He said he had a revelation and didn’t think about him again. He won him over because he didn’t reduce his life to books, but was sincerely interested in him. In the end and he got through to him. Well, I sure hope we get through to this unimaginable bastard with a high GPA.
In the meantime, I’ve said what i have to say, and like Sean, II won’t think about him again, either. If he dares to come back, and be disruptive instead of apologetic (like that young female gyn student. We put her in her place last year), then I will be ready. We must defend our site against such preposterous comments.
When you said “Dr Giggles” that touched something inside–my husband. I’ll explain. Men, no, I mean boys like Dr Anonymous graduate with the cockiness you describe already deeply ingrained within their psyche. It’s the bastards who taught him, who reinforced the asshole part of his personality while tamping out anything good. It begins with them. This jerk will in turn pass it along to the next generation of doctors. This is why updating woman’s care protocols, getting rid of pap scrape is just about impossible. No matter that it’s only 53% accurate while alternatives that don’t involve stirrups are 93% accurate and 100% preferred.
This guy will marry and never understand why he cannot please his wife. He will never stop blaming & shaming her. He’ll never try to learn, understand, and change because he’s programmed to treat us unfeelingly as lab rats. Yet he’ll cry due to the 2/3+ divorce rate among doctors.
Years ago my husband, during the pre-op immediately before abdominal hernia surgery, was molested by a nurse while the other nurses of the all-female team looked on. He was sedated, eyes covered, limbs fastened to the gurney. While one painted his abdomen with the orange goo, another gave him a handjob. He came to before he, ahh, came another way… The experience terrified him.
He told me on the way home. But nobody else would know for nearly 7yrs. Finally he had the confidence to tell his (nor former) best friend, whom is an anesthesiologist practicing in AL.
As my husband disclosed it, the “doctor” began and never stopped giggling. Except to ask for more details. My husband became irritated and asked what was so funny. At this, all giggling stopped. No support was offered, no advice, worse yet no “surprise” that it had taken place…
Suddenly my husband, for complaining, was the bad guy.
The doctor denied that these things ever, ever take place, while further blaming my husband for becoming aroused. He further assigned blame to my husband for possibly ruining the surgery schedule…
These texts, the criticisms from this turn-coat, are things we’ll never delete.
You want to see how a doctor really thinks?
This is how.
This same doctor, when he stayed with us in 1991, got an ear-to-ear grin when he his mother called him long distance. His sister had just received what we feel was a medically (not necessary) condoned rape. She had received a pelvic and rectal exam as part of preop exam to remove a skin cyst.
Her older brother, the brother fresh out of med school, drank Michelob beer and joked that his sister “had just received the most thorough pelvic exam she’d get in her entire life”…”something she would never forget.”
This is the perversion they learn to the tune of $150K+ in student loans.
We don’t wonder anymore why their marriages stink and they are lousy lovers.
They cannot empathize. They cannot feel. This is how they will behave when under stress.
And we are unconscious, out of our loved one’s protective sight, and at their mercy.
Penelope, although I can describe our pain, and what witnessing this was like, I wish I could express myself al eloquently as you do.
You tell it like it is. If I may say so, I envy your intelligence. I pray for the day, the Blessing, when then I can also write about this w/o so much vitriol. You make way better points than I do. Unfortunately, the pain fogs the objectivity I so desire when writing.
Dr Giggles must brainwash us into thinking he’s really detached or we’ll more easily see through to his perversion. You’re right, he laughs at a 15 yr old’s fear in as much as he ogles her.
But it’s not because he’s had sex with any aged woman. Many if not most of these guys go into med school virgins or with little sexual experience. They leave frustrated, angry, and with a penchant to dominate while making up for lost time. Their med degrees now substitute for the sexual prowess and physical looks they lack. Their sneering, demeaning looks toward all women reflect their anger inside at being ignored as they were before med school.
Regarding those graduating toward being fertility specialists? I agree. Or concur in doctor speak.
The passive/aggressive behaviors never to away.
I’ve read of fertility specialists routinely now making females undergo several endometrial biopsies as part of diagnostic and the treatment process. This is the MOST painful test I’ve ever undergone. Never will I have another unless under anesthetic. I credit my husband for being there and preventing me from suffering through another due to my lazy unsympathetic doctor (MODERATED OUT PLACE OF HOSPITAL AND DESIGNATION – NO longer my doctor).
Doctors like this jerk never learn to give a shit about pain a woman feels.
Unfortunately, there’s no easy way to provide the intervention doctors like this one need.
Thank you, thank you, thank you – so much. I read all of your posts – your catharses. All you’ve testified to must come from somewhere deep – and you’re still hurting and reeling from it. You you have my deep sympathy. Please forgive me for taking time to reply. Your testimonies really stunned me and I was overwhelmed. Admittedly, I wasn’t able to respond right away, and it doesn’t seem justified. It did give me time, though, to digest what you’ve said. I’m very sorry about what happened to your girlfriend’s daughter. I hope she’s listening to you now; that you are a source of strength as she continues to live with what happened and make sense of her life. And, I hope if the statute of limitations hasn’t passed that she considers legal action. I’m very sorry about what happened to your husband. That was horrifying. Although we champion our cause, yes we shouldn’t forget that men have been victimized too. I’ve read some stories on the Medical Patient Modesty website that included at least one male being molested. I notice that it is mostly married men of a certain age with “old-fashioned” morals (read – decency) that file the complaints. I guess the younger guys have yet to acknowledge if it happens to them. Your husband’s former friend, evidently wasn’t a friend. He sounds brainwashed and conditioned from all the long hours and detachment training, just as you’ve indicated. Otherwise, why laugh at an old friend’s suffering? It’s one thing to laugh out of nervousness or even immaturity. But, then he blamed your husband. So wrong. When I mentioned – Dr. Giggles – honestly, I didn’t realize it would touch you or anyone so deeply. I’m humble, but that really made me even more humbled that it touched you. Thank you again.
You really dug into this Anonymous med student. I don’t know if you could have been any more thorough. You’ve laid out his life with pinpoint accuracy for the next 10 years – or even less if he’s forced to leave because of misconduct, which for him is inevitable. Somewhere you mentioned about gyn students practicing on paid female college students. I did see an article about that. I wish I remembered where. Those young women need professional help. I think their thinking is out of whack because they were likely abused or raped, making their self-esteem lower than dirt. Hopefully they’ve stopped doing that’ most college women don’t do that. In this article that I saw, she actually volunteered her genitals to males and females, via pelvic exam, believing that she is doing something important. There was a picture of her in gown and stirrups, with a female med student – well, “practicing” while males looked on. Guess they didn’t – yet – want to be seen with their hands up there in that way you so eloquently described – erection and all. She posed with them in a picture afterwards, as if they were old friends. Sick – very sick. They practice on plastic female pelvises, now. But noticeably, the male med students were not photographed with their fingers or even a speculum inside. Again, it’s as you said. And, it’s because they know that what they’re doing is a sham – just as you said. They can’t diagnose anything with bimanuals or rectovaginals, but they keep at it- blaming the patient as the reason why they do the sham exams; much like a rapist blames the victim.
Cat&Mouse – it’s my hope that all (or at least most) women will have wake up; will have their eyes opened; will use their power to upend the gynecology, obstetrician, and fertility industries. It’s sad that women realize the truth only after having bad experiences. It’s sad we still have sheeple in denial. I always knew it was shady. It didn’t take long for me to decide what to do. Even the “diagnosed” women (we know there is an untold number who are misdiagnosed) need to retain their power and not expect to have to strip and be felt up with every follow-up visit. They need to demand tests that don’t involve stirrups. Men sure as hell don’t go through that unless they actually want to; actually go to the doctor cause they finally “saw something” and willingly strip.
I really think the attitudes these so called ob/gyns have comes from the countless women seen naked, semi-naked, strategically naked (torso covered – everything else hanging out), legally naked (covering areola and butt crack); implied naked – outside of their profession (and the list goes on). They don’t even need to see porn or R-rated movies to construct their beliefs. They figure that all women really can be coerced to go naked for them, if convinced it’s for a good cause (god-complex and all). They think they’re proven right with each skincare ad and insecure women exposing themselves on social media and for internet articles. Today’s depraved society exploits willing women and very obviously protects men’s – even boy’s bodies. I stopped counting the pictures of scantily clad women next to men in full suits or full dress. So, the women who don’t want to be exploited, need to assert their power – especially, particularly, and very importantly in the ob/gyn’s office. The vacant ob/gyn offices and or lower profits will be testament. Until, then, Cat&Mouse, it’s more of the same. The ob/gyns are being convicted and put away for their misconduct or at least losing licensure. So, I have alot of hope this will change. I have faith and pray because things change – and I do see, change for the better. There are moments of when I don’t feel hopeful; dare I say despair, but then through some inspirational quote; warm, listening ear and/or hug or just over time, God returns me to hope.
Let’s try to count our blessings – all of us – and keep hoping.
You are incredible! Perfectly express what many of us feel.
There’s a horrible, egotistical, arrogant, old (68) ob/gyn on Quora who is so obnoxious. Has zero understanding of women who may not want med students or random unknown residents up their vaginas during childbirth, pokes fun at women who prefer female gynos. Those women are troublemakers, nervous and bashful and his patients who think of pelvics and Pap smears as a simple “errand” to be crossed off their list are referred to as “polite” and Silicon Valley executives.
He is also quite open about how much he likes women, how much sex he had in med school and residency ( in the call rooms etc). That’s fine but not on the same site he’s a med professional. Etc. I wish you could challenge his nonsense.
After reading this thread, I am so glad my doctor is a gay male. He removed a polyp today while training an intern and I didn’t detect any funny business or unnecessary touching. I’m actually very grateful that, as per my request, he called the ultrasound department and had my ultrasound moved up from a month later to three days later as I felt I couldn’t wait to find out what was happening to the cyst on my right ovary. He seems like a good competent doctor, I cant complain, and trust me, Ive had a lot of really horrible male doctors.
Susan, was the cyst causing you pain?
Was it picked up during a routine pelvic exam?
After reading this article it reminded me of another I read some time ago penned by a gynaecologist who, as it would turn out, went against his colleagues and said the very same things that the doctor in this article is saying. Except he is an actual gynaecologist of many years turned advocate for women. Apparently, he has written books on the subject which has made his colleagues uncomfortable on the subject of intimate exam by the male doctor.
It took me forever to find this article again but here it is so I hope you guys appreciate the effort. The article was posted from a forum ” women against stirrups” of which I am unsure whether this site is affiliated, or even if this has been posted before, but here it is w/o further ado.Dec 7, 2009 at 2:20pm QuotePost Options Post by Yazzmyne on Dec 7, 2009 at 2:20pm
A maverick gynecologist argues that male physicians are poorly equipped to
care for female patients
For many women, seeing a gynecologist easily outranks visiting the dentist
as their least favorite doctor’s appointment. A dentist sometimes dispenses
pain; a gynecologist too often delivers humiliation. Not only must women lie
submissively in stirrups; they frequently must also endure the abasing
attitudes of their doctors — 80% of whom are men. Only the most radical
feminists so far have suggested that women doctors alone should be treating
women patients. Now, in a heretical stance sure to outrage the medical
profession, a male gynecologist is propounding that view. “Men have no
business being gynecologists,” declares Dr. John Smith. “The role properly
belongs to women. They are the only sex truly able to understand, empathize
with and appropriately relate to women in the already difficult
doctor-patient relationship.” That is just one of the grenades Smith lobs in
his new book, Women and Doctors: A Physician’s Explosive Account of Women’s
Medical Treatment — and Mistreatment — in America Today (Atlantic Monthly
Press; $20.95). Male domination of the medical profession has bred a host of
abuses, says Smith, 49, a medical maverick who upset colleagues by starting
the first HMO in Colorado Springs, Colo., and now acts as a consultant on
national health policy. Research on heart disease and cancer, as well as on
the benefits of various therapies, has centered almost exclusively on men.
“We’ve got a body of knowledge that doesn’t apply to women,” laments Smith.
More than 600,000 hysterectomies are performed in the U.S. each year, half
of them unjustified, in Smith’s opinion. “That’s over $1 billion in
physician fees alone,” notes Smith, who contends that doctors are overpaid
and undersupervised. “No wonder they don’t have a lot of motivation to
develop alternative treatments to the excuses used for hysterectomies.”
Sexism, ranging from outright abuse to subtle debasement, is pervasive in
the profession. Smith recalls a colleague who invited him to do an exam on a
patient under the false guise of a consultation because “she has a body you
won’t believe.” Another physician, whenever faced with an “emotional” female
patient, would draw in his notes a stick figure with a lightning bolt going
into its head and write down a nonsensical diagnosis of “zigzybiasis,”
signifying “This patient is crazy.” A pediatrician habitually marked his
notes with a smiley face when a young patient had a good-looking mother.
To be sure, most male physicians are good people who are certain that they
act in their patients’ best interest. They are, however, a product of the
values of the male-dominated culture. “The good ole boy called Bubba who
becomes a gynecologist is simply Dr. Bubba,” says Smith. Moreover, he
maintains that a strong subconscious motivation for many men who choose
gynecology as a specialty is the “need to be in a powerful and controlling
relationship with women.”
Whatever sexist attitudes men carry into medical school, they are
intensified within the fraternity of physicians. “It’s amazing how isolated
doctors are,” says Smith. “Training doesn’t root out their biases and
insensitivities. Instead, a subculture envelops them and reinforces each
other’s stereotypes of patients.” A common mnemonic used in medical school
to help identify women who develop gallstones is “fat, 40, with four kids.”
$ Says the author: “It took forever for me to see slender, unmarried women
as candidates for gallbladder disease.” Prejudiced and mistaken notions also
can govern the treatment offered to black women, lesbians and those with a
history of venereal disease. For example, says Smith, a doctor quickly
diagnosed in a young, married black woman chronic pelvic inflammatory
disease — an ailment that results from previous venereal infection —
though nothing in her history supported such a judgment. Actually, her
symptoms and history perfectly matched a diagnosis of endometriosis, a
As a result of such attitudes, he argues, women are better off with women
doctors. Smith concedes that female physicians can be every bit as
domineering and money grubbing as their male colleagues and that medical
training may drain sensitivity out of some of them, but “as basic material,
they have the best opportunity for empathy. And at the least, they
understand the female body better than any man could.”
Smith knows that his stance is more polemical than practical; no one truly
expects men to abandon the gynecological field. Nor should they, as many
women patients will attest. That would be the equivalent of saying only male
doctors should minister to men and Doogie Howsers to children — and solely
the boys at that. What makes far more sense is Smith’s call for a radical
restructuring of women’s health care. Among his proposals: overhauling
medical education so that male doctors understand what it means to be a
By that he means nothing as simple or gimmicky as having men climb into the
stirrups, a tactic that is being tried in a few medical schools. “What I’m
talking about is a rigorous exposure to the female perspective on life and
males, how vulnerable they feel in the world, not just in the doctor’s
office,” explains Smith. “A woman’s specialist needs to go beyond anatomy,
beyond having babies and periods. He or she needs to be an expert in female
sexuality, social interaction, cultural values, anxieties and fears, the
total psychological makeup of being a woman.” They would also be trained in
how such ailments as heart disease and cancer differ in women and men.
Smith believes that the new woman’s specialist should concentrate almost
exclusively on preventive and primary care. “The ideal setup would be female
clinics, overseen by doctors but staffed by nurses and other non-M.D.
professionals,” he says. Routine prenatal and pregnancy care, now the
purview of the gynecologist-obstetrician, would be handled by midwives,
while high- risk pregnancies and deliveries would be assigned to the
How is this change going to come about? Well, don’t count on physicians.
“We’ve got an entrenched older establishment that doesn’t see the need for
change,” Smith observes. “Younger physicians are more likely to favor it but
less likely to be politically active.” Women are going to have to prod
doctors into giving them better care. Smith suggests that women approach
their gynecologists “the way you do car dealers and insurance salesmen.” Ask
questions, he says, and take notes. Your doctor may mark down such assertive
action in his medical records. But as a measure of respect, it beats a
smiley face every time.
John, I think the whole gynaecology business needs changing. It’s nearly all based on the pap smear which was invented by George Papanicolaou in the 1930’s by trying it out on his wife. Since when has medical scientific evidence been researched by testing your wife? Therein lies the problem with this test. If his wife had been asked by some other researcher to undergo daily testing for another type of cancer as a favour, I doubt the Papanicolaous would have found this quite so acceptable. What the Papanicolaous got up to is their own business, but their own style of sexual intimacy seems to have been forced onto women worldwide as normalcy when I don’t think it should be. Before screening was rolled out in the UK in the late 1980’s, there was widespread concern about the acceptability of this test, and after decades of force and brainwashing the zealots are still trying to convince us.
Thank you! Remember seeing that once and good to have it.
Also, the famous French obstetrician Michael Odent
who says men really have no place in childbirth. That the presence of men induces a primitive , instinctual fear that produces hormones that inhibit progression of labor. Now , he means husbands too, but I needed mine with me. He doesn’t count as a man. 🙂 For me this applies to male drs and even more absurd, male labor and delivery nurses or midwives. Men, you dominate 37 of 42 medical specialties; stay out of our world.
Like in nature, where animals go off to a private, safe, quiet area to give birth, women also need quiet safe dimly lit peaceful spaces to labor ( which can happen at a cooperative ) hospital. As opposed to the brightly lit rooms with too many people in and out, disrupting with frequent cervical exams etc.
I knew of the man but not of this story. But in any case I’m sure his pockets are well lined from it.
Ada I agree with every word you just said. I remember a comment from someone who’s doc told her a smear was like having sex. I’ve had sex yes but I never have or would have played doctors and nurses and would never agree to be penetrated with speculum and brushes!
Yes, I’m sure if another man had asked to have unlimited daily use of Mrs Papanicolaou’s vagina for his personal research, the Pap family would not have have found this request nearly so normal! What was acceptable between the two of them as a married couple is perverse in the medical setting. Marie Curie would never have put up with this from Pierre!
I just wondered if anyone on here from the UK, male or female, has ever been called up for the NHS health check which has reputedly been running for 8 years?
We’ve never had any invites.
Everyone aged 40-70 in UK is supposed to get a health check invite every 5 years which is primarily to check for heart disease and diabetes, and advice on keeping healthy. I’ve seen some people post, somewhat disappointedly, that it’s too basic and they expected to get all sorts of interesting findings but didn’t. I’ve read an article about whether “some other things” should be included in this🚨🚨
In an attempt to save money, I’m just wondering if they’ll phase in smear testing for over 40s into this 5 yearly MOT-style set-up, with something else for men? What do other people think?
Ada I was “invited” to one of these years ago I can’t remember how many . The “invitation ” was binned immediately. I guessed at some point I accepted it that smears would be mentioned. I never had any more after that
To clarify. ..my partner put the “invitation ” to 2 years ago. Another reason I declined was because I’d had bloods done in relation to my severe anaemia. I really saw no point in getting it done again and I’d been hassled to have a smear when I got my results back about the anaemia
I read an article today that a lot of people think it’s a good idea, but I thought the uptake had been quite poor, but maybe things have changed. My feelings are that if they put the smear test for women with negative smears in with the 5 yearly health check, they could save a ton of money and wind down part of the programme. I bet that’s on a whiteboard somewhere.
My husband is soon to be 60 so I’m half expecting his bowel screening kit to come through the door any time soon. I’ve also posted on one of the NHS screening blogs again and am stuck in moderation, so I expect I’ll get that classic email from Mike Harris again! I’m sure he loves us!
Such joy! In 2 years at 55 I’ll be “invited ” to flexi sig. Again I’ll be opting out. A colleague had one and they were heavy handed she had a lot of problems for months. Plus my reason is NO WAY AM I allowing anything to be inserted in my behind. In 53 years I haven’t had anything stuck up there and unless I have problems I won’t agree to it now!
Well I hope when you reach 55 they’ve come a up with something better, but I’m almost 56 & husband nearly 60, but we’ve not had any summons letters for anything so far, so I think not all areas are operating at full Flexi Sig speed at the moment, and what with my surgery being in special measures… it looks like we may have missed it and will just get the poo pot at 60!
Here in Australia the bowel screening test is very low key, barely mentioned and no pressure at all, but they’re still spending money trying to get women into breast screening. The pressure to have pap testing will be ramped way up when the new program starts but I think they’re being more careful with the “2 yearly testing or you’ll die” message, that just makes women more concerned about the move to later and less frequent HPV testing.
I find them so predictable, it would be laughable if they weren’t messing with women’s lives, minds and health.
I don’t think our bowel screening program is fully funded yet, people aged 50+ get a kit now and then, think it’s 50, 55, 60 and 65, they seem to add another test when funds are sent their way. Most GPs seem to recommend having the test every year or 2, if you want to do that, you’d have to buy your own self-test kit. (about $50-$70)
Lots of people don’t bother either so the unused tests are a complete waste of money, the number of people screening is fairly low, lower than 50%…which makes you wonder why we’re even bothering…why not direct the funds to mental health or another worthy and underfunded area? Suicide is a serious issue, how much are we spending on suicide prevention?
I know people who use the FOBT, but you have to be prepared to have a colonoscopy if the test comes back positive, so if you have concerns about a colonoscopy, people should think hard before using the “simple” test.
Bowel cancer is far more likely than cc, so it says to me that screening is mostly hype, profits and political – the “pin-up” cancers get most of the attention and funding. Otherwise, common sense would say you focus on the common cancers, not the rare ones.
Comparison of the UK and Aussie bowel screening programs:
Elizabeth, you are quite right about bowel screening being low key in Australia, so far.
I personally know only 4 people aged 50+ who were gullible enough to “participate”. They used the kit, did the FOBT test, got false positive results due to minor haemorrhoids that most people have these days. Yet all four ended up going through unnecessary colonoscopies, which meant the gut-stripping preparations, the brain-damaging sedation, and the pain. All four had a hemorrhoidectomy done afterwards, and all four ended up with horrendous complications after the surgery. All of them now say that the quality of their everyday life is now much worse than if was before this ‘adventure” happened.
Only 4 people, but it’d a 100% failure rate. Make your conclusions.
Alice, I’ve decided against a colonoscopy, the actual procedure worries me – the invasive nature of the test, the stripping of the bowel, the sedation, the anxiety, discomfort, possible complications etc. etc. Does the procedure cause diverticulitis?
My elderly mother went into hospital to have a colonoscopy, I collected a seriously confused woman a few hours later, she’s never made up that ground. We know sedations and GAs are not a good idea after age 50, they can lead to memory issues. Mum might have had a small stroke during the procedure, we don’t really know. Mum had to stop taking blood thinning medication before the procedure so it’s possible it was a small stroke. (she has an arrhythmia of the heart)
Of course, the evidence says bowel screening does not reduce all cause mortality anyway.
Just as I had concerns about a GP scrapping my cervix every 2 years, from 18 until age 70, and also, where that so often led – to cutting out and burning off “abnormal cells” – that same inner voice that told me to protect my cervix also, later told me that squeezing breasts flat between two plates and irradiating them was not a good idea either, I’d stand guard again. I’ve felt that way for most of my life, I stand guard over my asymptomatic body. I know my life has been happier and healthier as a result.
A woman online told me the other day that she couldn’t imagine not having Pap tests, how wonderful her life would have been, instead she’s lived in dread, feeling anxious and physically ill as each due date approached – she was American so had annual pap testing until she was 50. I couldn’t help but feel sad and angry for her loss, something she can never get back, she’d also endured the inevitable result of serious over-screening, 3 colposcopies and biopsies and finally a cone biopsy. (she had a hysterectomy at age 50 for benign fibroids – sounds like an unnecessary hysterectomy too)
I’ve found that inner voice to be a great guide in life, of course, I do my research too, but it backs up the “sniff test” every time.
So much damage is done, from discomfort, pain, embarrassment, awful worry and fear…to physical and psychological damage, over-diagnosis, over-treatment…even death.
I prefer to focus on wellness and living, not sickness and death and I’ll continue to listen to that inner voice and do my research, I’d never accept a word coming from the medical profession, other vested interests or well-meaning but misinformed individuals, pressure/awareness groups, politicians or anyone else.
I’ve just never agreed that searching for something that looks abnormal is the right way to live – my female ancestors didn’t live that way and they all lived to be great ages, healthy and happy, not constantly sitting in waiting rooms, climbing into stirrups, having colposcopies, biopsies etc. etc.
Let’s hope so. And if you and I see the smear crap being brought up in these checks I’m sure lots of other women avoid it for the same reason!
Elizabeth I agree…Sadly the cabin crew female mentioned above says womens bodies go through so much..birth periods ect so it’s wise to keep checks well women gave birth and had periods for thousands of years quite happily minus smears ect….
Kat, I don’t need to tell you, but periods, pregnancy, menopause are all complete;y normal, isn’t it sad that so many women view these things as risk factors? We don’t do that with the male body, it’s a complex thing too, the production of semen/sperm, erections/erectile dysfunction, possible injury to the testicles,testicular and prostate cancer, fertility, urinary/incontinence issues, testosterone issues/aggression etc.
We could equally say the male body does so much, it would be crazy not to have all of it checked out every year, but we don’t, it’s the female body that’s viewed critically and suspiciously and of course, the prevailing view is that women are hopeless so others need to take charge of our bodies….for our own good and for public health reasons.
My thoughts back in late 1980’s were why did women need all these tests and men didn’t? I knew then that Cervical cancer was caused by an infection which was sexually transmitted, so why weren’t men being tested for this too?
Unfortunately the so-called feminists, such as the Women’s Health Collective who wrote Our bodies ourselves have only taken on the paternalism themselves and are doing to other women what men have been doing to them and calling this empowerment.
Once you’ve had several clear checks, it isn’t likely all of the sudden your body will not be able to clear HPV, especially if with same partner.
I’m amazed by how many people fall for the every year nonsense. Just at Christmas time my 48 year old sister in law, an RN for an ENT said something about needing to get her Pap smear .., I forget the details but it prompted me to tell her that I don’t go every year .. that if it’s been normal for the past 30 years why would you need to test again and again. She’s been married for 25 years. She was surprised and said she didn’t know that.
Ladies on the loathsome cervicalscreening1 website is a new post from a woman airline cabin crew saying she hopes smears will b made compulsory for female cabin crew. I left a comment. Is anyone else up 4 it?
Done. I noticed that she’s Saudi Arabian so I expect they have to have weekly virginity tests for that job. Did you read the following post? I can only take that odious website in very small doses. I’m sure those girls are touting for business.
Yes ada I did with vomit bucket on standby. .thank you!
Elizabeth last year my colleague accepted her “invitation” to flexible SIG . She has regular smears and with a family history of breast cancer and a few benign lumps of her own has regular mammograms. The flexible SIG didn’t reveal any polyps?/of trouble but they caught part of her bowel or some such and she was left in great pain passing mega diarrhea explosively and needed a pad as she leaked. Even though the flexi Sig was clear the hospital wanted to do the colonoscopy and she agreed…no idea why. She was terrified of the thought of possible sides effects bleeding and even death but she had it…I’d have refused! She is a bouncy outgoing woman but turned down an invite to her old achoo re union she attends every year. It took literally months to settle down. Needless to say this is another test I’ll be declining. She said it was horrible being pumped full of gas and farting it right back out at them! She is beginning to thinking have the right ideas! I told her that I’ve not had a smear in 17 years and as we’re both in monogamous relationships we’re very unlikely to be HPV+ and if we want to test we could order the kit…
“She said it was horrible being pumped full of gas and farting it right back out at them”
Sounds like they deserved everything they got, Kat.
I revealed to my sister and SIL that I didn’t have smears and they were speechless. Both have university degrees, as have some people I have spoken to online, but didn’t know it was caused by the HPV virus and without this there was no chance of cervical cancer. Yes, they had totally believed the propaganda that it strikes randomly, even in Virgins, so screening was absolutely essential to avoid death. Of course when I told them it’s a STI they were aghast and I don’t think they believe me even now. It’s very sad. People are totally sucked in. The odd article by Margaret McCartney and Michael Baum appears occasionally, but if you don’t happen to catch it, on the day, it’s gone, and when the summons appears in a years time there’s only the propaganda to go on.
Ada, I think many women just dismiss Margaret McCartney and Michael Baum as radicals, outsiders or even ratbags. We hear the propaganda over and over from so many groups and doctors that the one or two voices backed by the evidence, saying something completely different, are rejected outright.
Some of the most aggressive Pap test promoters are university educated women, and yes, they just accepted the hype. It’s disappointing that these women often won’t even look at the evidence, they’re so sure they’re right and I’m wrong…
Ada you could well be right there! I loved that comment about getting what they deserve
If she was being pumped full of gas, that sounds more like a barium enema.
Hi ladies! There’s a new thread on mumsnet do I really need a smear from a 52 year old who really can’t face it again but I think Shell go anyway! I’ve posted as kat786 and had some success….
So many new comments here since I last visited this forum. The new posts are interesting. My personal preferences and choices, to see only a female physician for planned exams, all of this has been healthy for my marriage. I say “planned” exams because in an emergency or life-threatening situation, I don’t care about the provider’s gender. In a crisis, a physician must move quickly to solve the problem. There is not time nor is there the ideal environment for a male doctor to become aroused.
In looking around the internet for credible information about male doctors and arousal, I have read about doctors losing their licenses for improper behavior, not just with female patients but also with female staff.
A doctor who sexually harasses his female employees (with their clothes on) will of course be easily aroused when he examines an attractive female who is partially or fully nude behind clothes doors.
I suggest that if you are considering seeing a male for an intimate exam, look into how he treats his female employees. You might be shocked at what you find out, and you will not want to be touched by such a man who has just groped a nurse’s rear end on his way to examine your breasts or pelvic region.
My two cents worth.
For both non-Christian and Christian women on this blog, check out an article, Are Male Gynecologists Biblical? (http://www.biblicalmodesty.com/malegynos.aspx).
Now this? I find your views extremely disconcerting, skewed, one-sided, and discriminatory. First there was “Medical Modesty.” IF you took into account the whole of medicine I could possibly believe your argument. But you won’t. This application of history along with Biblical reasoning just follows the same script. No reality.
The errors begin by trying to compare as equals gyn care then and now. You can’t.
You also go so far as to totally exclude the male or husband from doing anything but providing food & shelter, screwing, and helping to raise the family. You cannot prove that husbands weren’t at least wanting to be involved in birth. Even today, you fail to mention how important it is for the family as a whole to have the husband involved in birthing to any degree. From the american pioneers going back men were involved. Just to what degree?
Another thing you don’t consider is lesbianism. Or female-female molest.
Or most importantly, how Islam from its beginning through today, it’s women (in Africa; while male “hygienic barbers” flourish in Egypt) in charge with female circumcisn. Just depends on whether the clit itself is amputated or worse is done.
Then there’s practicality. In our society it’s impossible to implement your one-sided morals.
Imagine sexually segregated medicine today…
The workers accused of crimes and those arrested would outnumber today’s statistics. Building these sexual fences would encourage everybody to challenge the norms. There would be immense numbers of “peeking” violations at minimum; let alone contact violations.
Once again, I want to remind you of something.
My husband was the recipient of a molest at the hands of his five all-women team preparing him for surgery.
The patient having a mixed-sex team has a much better chance of NOT being molested than the alternatives. Why? Part of this is “gang mentality.” A mixed-sex team is less likely to commit molest. Proof? This time in New Mexico a lesbian ENT molested every male patient during surgery. It involved fondling and inspecting the patient’s genitals. The ENT’s surgery team was all-female too.
During a surgery the female anesthesiologist noticed this, and that the male patient also showed acute signs of an STD. She vocally objected to what she saw.
The anesthesiologist found herself retaliated against. She was forced to leave NM while the lesbian chief of staff ENT went unscathed.
It’s wonderful that you care. But you are misguided.
I have had nicer male gynecologist than female gynecologist. All the female doctors I had were rude and acted like they didn’t want to do the test on me. This one time when I was overweight, I was told I needed a pap test, since cervical cancer runs in the family. The female doctor I had was rude, I was on the table naked with a gown on and when the doctor came in she just looked down there and said she couldn’t do the exam because I’m overweight, and it’s harder to do it on overweight women. I then went to another woman doctor and that was just as rude too, I could hear her talking to the nurse in the room next to me and I’m not kidding either the doctor told the nurse “time to do the pap test on fatty next door”, the doctor and nurse came in my room and were trying to act all nice, then the doctor didn’t even do a breast exam and she was very forceful with the pap test, I wasn’t positioned on the table right and she didn’t even care she just jammed the thing up me, then when I said that it hurt, she told me “your a woman you should be used to it.
I mean if they don’t like their job, don’t be a doctor then.
I eventually went to a male gynecologist, and I was still overweight, he did the pap test and he was more nicer about it. He did the test and it turned out I did have a growth, that wasn’t cancerous.
Doctors see naked bodies all the time and it’s nothing new to them.
when I was younger my one cousin was a doctor. He had this policy that whenever someone came into his office, even for a regular checkup that they had to take off all their clothes, except for their underclothes. He did this because it’s easier to see the whole body and if anything is wrong.
One time when he was just checking a man’s breathing he noticed a dark spot on his back, when he asked the man about it, the man said he had it for weeks and ever told anyone because he thought it was just a rash. My cousin took a piece of the spot and examined it and found out it was skin cancer. He saved the mans life.
Most doctors would have never noticed it, because most people keep their shirts on when they test your breathing.
My cousin ended up losing his license because some female patient didn’t like his policy about having to take off all their clothes, but the underclothes. Trying to claim that it was just a way to sexually take advantage of his patients and stuff like that. Of course the courts believed the woman and not the doctor.
There is a difference between the real world and work.
My one friend is a vet tech (which is a nurse in the animal field) she sees all sorts of gross stuff and it doesn’t bother her. This one day her neighbors dog got lose and attacked her dog, when she saw how bad her dog was bleeding, she vomited. I told her she should be use to this stuff, but she said it’s different when its your own pet.
Just like doctors are trained not to get emotional if they lose a patient So doctors are calm when someone dies, but yet if it is someone they know who dies they will be showing all sorts of emotions.
We all are nice to customers and co-workers at our job, yet act completely different when we get home to our families, that’s how it is with doctors. It’s just a job.
You really can’t make blanket statements that male gynos are nicer and more gentle than females. nor the reverse.
Personally I have never stepped a toe into a male gynos office. Just the thought of a man in that position is repulsive.
So, I’ve seen only female gynos. Two women at one practice for ten years, who delivered my babies. They were both great. Classy, kind. sweet, respectful, gentle.
I moved to another state in my mid thirties. Went to a random woman dr and she was okay but I didn’t like her enough to go back.
Then stumbled upon the one I’ve seen for the past twenty years. She’s awesome, just a few years younger, same first name, grew up in nearby towns in the original state and went to similar small private liberal arts colleges also in the same state. She’s a peer. Mellow, thorough, kind. She’s awesome.
Sex doesn’t determine personality and all female drs are not rude and rough.
It’s a shame you were not treated properly by those doctors.
I do agree shelalstine
I live in the UK and at my GPs for any intermit examination a nurse is always present and at the patience requests the nurse can make the examination without the ( male ) Doctor present , manly in the UK this is done on religious grounds. Now as shelalstine mentioned i too have had examinations by male and female health workers and would say by a big margin the male doctors are a bit more gentle. less mechanical … if you know what i mean
Cat & Mouse
I’m not sure if I would like my hubby there, only because he would sense my embarrassment and that’s contagious, me in a paper gown with my legs in the air, not a pretty site.
I find what you said intriguing … You say your husband looks over your gynaecologist shoulders while the examination takes place.
Please What is he looking for ? is it facial ? or something else ?
Yes Yes i know ” Sight ” not site
That is why I usually have a female practitioner do my well woman checkups or physicals. I’m a 34 years old virgin, and it might make me think are there female practitioners that are like that?
I wanted to share an article a female anesthesiologist wrote about how her male pediatrician did an unnecessary breast exam on her as a teenager when she came in for rib pain at https://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2018/01/metoo-moment-pediatrician.html. Sadly, this is pretty common because we are taught that we should submit to everything doctor tell us to do.
I am 40 years old and I had never done a Pap. Occasionally a doctor recommends it to me, and I think “the day it hurts or it bites me down there, I’ll go to look at me, not before.” It’s sad how other women get angry when I say this; apparently they think it’s my obligation to do it, and they all know someone (sometimes themselves) who “they found something and they got it on time”. To convince them that probably that abnormal cell had never turned into cancer and it was not necessary to burn it, it is impossible.
Recently I made my first (and last) cytology because I am single and I am considering options to be a mother. The fertility clinics do not give you an option: before the first visit you have to take a series of tests; Most are blood tests, but one of them is cytology. It is the most horrible test that can be imagined: not only is it humiliating to be there naked and open-legged before a stranger (fortunately she was a woman and very kind), also the insertion of the specula was extremely painful. Knowing that I do not have relationships, neither with a regular partner nor with anyone else, she told me to use the smaller size, the one she uses with teenagers. In spite of that it hurt like a stab, and then I bleed abundantly throughout the day. I do not imagine how many women are willing to go through that every year without reason.
When I receive the letters from the public health system, to make a mammogram, they will go directly to the wastebasket
Brave Doctor for stepping up! Well Done and Thank you. 👍💓👍
[…] aware that they receive breast and pelvic examinations when there’s no logical reason for them. And some doctors will admit to getting some sexual gratification from performing these procedures. Yet, despite any ‘warning bells’ or intuition, women are told that any physical investigation […]
This is so creepy.
I am 57 years old going thru menopause since I was 52 , I still have all my female organs, I have 2 children now grown, no history of cancer in my family. My last pap and mamogram was when I was in my 40’s, my ob/gyn was a male & and very creepy looking man, he took over my old Drs pratice,as my old ob/gyn she retired and I did not know it at the time I made the appointment. I went to the appointment taken to a exam room and the nurse told me take all my clothes off including my bra and panties and put on this thin paper flimsy gown. Dr creepy comes in and tells me to lay down and proceeds to exam me with ungloved hands! Feeling me all over rubbing his hands all over my breasts and vagina and no nurse in the room. I told him to stop and he said he didn’t do my pap test and, I said YOU ARE DONE! I got up from the table grabbed my clothes and ran from the exam room naked, down to the hall to the bathroom locked the door and got dressed. When I walked through the waiting room, I told every women itting there what just happened and that this Dr should not be practicing medicine! I immediately reported this creep to my Insurance company and medical board ! A year later he finally was removed from his practice, I was not the only one who reported him! I have never went to another gyn again for paps or mamograms, I am not sexually active for the last 18 years , my 2nd husband had a massive stroke and is in a wheel chair, so we are not sexually active , I had only 2 men in entire life,I have no sexually transmitted diseases ,no family history of female cancer or heart diseases. I feel I do not need a pap test or mamogram, and tired of getting pressured from my Insurance company and letters in the mail from the mamogram center …..It is my body my choice! My Choice, My body and I say NO!!
What gives these filthy pigs that call them selves “Drs”. the right to molest you!
I was sexually abused in the disguise of a thorough vaginal exam. The GYN made his nurse look away while his actions were painfully inappropriate. His actions were premeditated! How can I prove it?
Tell people. File complaint with police and AMA etc…
I would love it if some victim would return to the office and loudly announce something like this to patients in the waiting room…and then when the office makes a big deal about doing so…let em know why
On Sun, Jan 13, 2019, 10:00 PM forwomenseyesonly Maggie commented: “I was sexually abused in the disguise of a thorough > vaginal exam. The GYN made his nurse look away while his actions were > painfully inappropriate. His actions were premeditated! How can I prove it?” >
If I made a scene like that in his office I would be arrested! And God knows what else?!
It happened almost 6 months ago and I still have complaint forms to report him, but I fear what it may lead to!! There was even a gaping hole in the ceiling of the exam room, which I questioned with his bourse. Her reply was too mumbled to understand and with that he walked into the exam room! Excuse typos this is upsetting!
I never said a word after exam was over I was in some kind of disbelief and just wanted to get dressed and out of there!!!! He talked about a biopsy and not to wait for results of psp smear he just did. Only 3 weeks later when I refused a biopsy and cancelled appointment they scheduled (without informed consent) he told his nurse to tell me there was no Pap smear! Yet I was told during appointment there would a Pap smear and same nurse assured me there would be!
I have come across a UK doctor (colposcopist) who has posted a picute on his fb page which makes a joke about sexualising examination with the doctor groping a women’s breasts. I was quite shocked to see a doctor being so openly misogynistic. These kind of posts are shared alongside the usual ‘’come for a smear test, it only takes two minutes’’ nonsense.
A female patient was receiving a male doctor administered image exam which required her to be naked with her breasts unclothed. The physician commented that the female’s chest was very conducive to the test and she could be a model and sales rep to show off the imaging equipment. So much so that he went to get colleagues to share this information. A few other male physicians entered the exam room and confirmed that this patient could be a sales rep in helping to model how to use the equipment. This just seems akin to the Totally Unnecessary Breast Examination that allows a group of male providers to check out a female’s breasts while not involved in the clinical exam or providing any clinical value.
This is so refreshing to hear, especially from a man. I have never, nor will I ever get a pelvic or pap test. I was pressured to have a breast exam I didn’t need, and it’s never happing again. In addition to being incredibly invasive, I find these “exams” to be incredibly offensive to my body as well.
To the 3rd year medical student I would like you to keep visiting this site and when you manage to qualify and practise medicine to inform us as to which state you are working in so we can aviod it Thank you
I have just read the comments by the 3rd year medical student with his attitude and compassion for women may I suggest that he becomes a vet instead
What a dumb article. Reads like it was written by a woman to scare women off of male doctors. I am a woman and not intimidated by this.
You are encouraged to reconsider. Read this article, http://patientmodesty.org/avoidmaledocs.aspx and watch the video about the history of gynecology and how to prevent sexual abuse in medical settings at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZg69V0sVTQ&t=1848s.
Good for you.
But most of us here prefer to be realistic and informed.
I was googling sexual assault by gynecologists and through that found For Women’s Eyes Only and this article.
The thought of going to a male gynecologist has always traumatized me and I never have been to a male and never will. I thought I was the only one that felt that way because of the sexual abuse I have been through both in this life and I suspect in past lives. From childhood I always thought men were trying to take advantage of girls.
In first grade I was upset that the male gym teacher would have the girls do tumbles so their underwear would show. I have always been afraid of men doctors but I have no memories of anything. But I always thought that they have the power to look at your privates and it caused me such anxiety. Reading through some of the experiences of women here who were forced to spread their legs as children for doctors makes me wonder if I had that happen and blocked it out like I did with some other memories. There is so much from my childhood that I have blocked out. I used to have another bedroom until I was 5 when my Dad built a new one for me and that room became a den. I remember nothing about being in that room.
I also remember in 6th grade that there were physical exams and the one girl came back and said that she stood and they looked up her vagina and that was part of this exam. She thought it was weird and I was horrified. There was no way I was going to do that and my mother took me to our own doctor instead.
I also was having an endoscopy as an adult about 6 years ago and I was put in a hospital gown and left my panties on. But when they wheeled me to be anesthetized they saw they were on and took them off. I didn’t know what to do except go along with it. I don’t know why I had to take panties off for a procedure at the other end. When I woke up I felt really violated somehow. When I got to the room to change into my clothes I found I had some shit on my gown which the nurse said was normal to have happened. I just wanted to get out of there and take a shower and I felt so angry and violated. When I read later on, horrified to learn that they can do pelvic exams on anesthetized patients, I googled the hospital I was at and it is a teaching hospital. I don’t know if that happened to me or not even though my state had banned that or that is why I had shit on me. But I feel so angry from it all that I will never do that again.
So reading through this site had been really helpful to me to know that I am not the only one who thinks it’s wrong for men to do pelvic exams and reading it described as medical rape is so very accurate. I have been with my soulmate for 45 years and he totally agrees. When I told him many years ago how I felt as a child, he said that it isn’t how a child should feel. But sadly many women hit adulthood with some kind of sexual impropriety done to them when they were kids. I know when I was googling stuff before getting to this site I came across a video on YouTube of a male gyno doing a pelvic exam on an attractive female. I was horrified watching it and thinking it looks so sexual, there is no way a male isn’t going to be aroused by it. I couldn’t get it out of my head and then I found this site talking about how vile the gynecology industry is and I just feel relieved that I am not the only one that is angry at how they get away with what I feel is legalized sexual abuse.
It has been really helpful to read too about why we don’t need pap smears. Even though I have a woman gynecologist and she has been a decent one I hate having to spread my legs and go through this. I have not been to her in three years and I was thinking that I need to go especially because she prescribes lidocaine to help for dryness during sex. I am 64 ( which sounds really old when I write it because people think I’m in my 40’s ) and have been in menopause for 14 years. Now I know I don’t need to go for a pelvic or pap. Thank you for that
It is also why I am vegan for life for animals as the ones that are deemed “food”, that we have no need to eat, go through their own version of sexual assault by being forcibly impregnated to breed them and then have their babies taken away. They suffer so much oppression, abuse and outright torture at human hands, it is sickening and I will not participate. If you want to learn more on that and how to help them go here. http://www.nationearth.com/
Thank you again for this site. There are even more things that I will not let anyone get away with again should I need medical stuff and this site and the modesty one are really helpful for that.
Welcome to this amazing site!! I, too, was incredibly relieved to find this site and found out I’m far from the only person that feels this way about the vile practice of gynecology. You are most welcome to speak your mind here and we will not judge you for feeling icky about pelvic exams. I also didn’t know about pelvic exams being done on patients under anesthesia. If you ask me that’s literally classified as rape. Doing the exams on a drugged patient completely without their consent or knowledge… disgusting.
I’m 26 now, and before I was going to reluctantly cave in and make this dreaded appointment, I talked to one of my sisters about it and she straight up told me “if you don’t want to go then don’t go. It’s up to you to get it done, not the doctor.” This opened up a whole new window of realization for me. I was doing some googling and like you said, this was the only website that popped up.
Thank goodness I realized that this vile practice is not mandatory. Therefore I am 26 and married for 3 years and still have not had any type of pelvic exam done, because screw that!
By the way, I think you would also love the “Women Against Stirrups” website. It has been very educational for me and so relieving and reassuring. I go on there as frequently as I come on here and find great articles and information.
Womanhood is not a disease!! Our bodies, especially our reproductive systems, are healthy and powerful!
Thank you Anonymous! I am so glad to find this site and I’m glad that at your age you won’t participate anymore. I did find the women against stirrups site too and posted there and the modesty site. It is so good to know that other women feel the same. I have not talked to other women about this except to say I only see women for gynecology but now unless there is an issue I’m done with that. But I will talk about this with some of my close vegan women friends. I did use an alternate Facebook account to paste a link to this article on some Facebook posts about predator gynos out there to steer women to take a look at this and think. The term medical rape is so appropriate especially with pelvis done under anesthesia. That is disgusting and I read about that a year ago and was horrified.
Thank you Anonymous! I had no idea till I saw these sites that I had company in how I felt about male doctors doing pelvic exams. I have been to the Women against stirrups and the modesty site and spent a lot of time looking through them. I am glad that you will be saved from participating in the vile pelvic exam and at your age that is great!
Not only do I speak out for animals but I used an alternate account to post a link to this article on Facebook posts about predator gynos in the news so that other women will think about this. The term medical rape especially under anesthesia is so appropriate. I’ll talk to my close women friends too about this.
Welcome Vegan4Animals! I’m glad you found your way here. Thank you for sharing your experiences, and for making the point that having a female gynecologist is no panacea – this exam is invasive, uncomfortable and very difficult for many women to undergo, no matter what sex the practitioner is (not to mention of poor clinical value). For me, good health means peace of mind, and this exam along with other procedures women are constantly pressured to undergo, more often than not cause stress and rob us of our inner peace. Please stick around and feel free to contribute often – we are all here to empower ourselves and each other.
Bless you Vegan4Animals and welcome to the site.
I’m truly sorry about the experiences you have suffered and hope that you are continuing to heal from them.
I can totally relate to what you say about animals too. I have been vegetarian for 14 years now. I made the transition to veganism two years ago and intend to go back to it.
That is awesome! I went vegan after I learned that they grind up day old male baby chicks alive in the egg industry on Facebook one night. I went vegan that day 7 years ago even though I was addicted to cheese and I speak out for them now. I was vegetarian for decades. It is so similar to what women go through and the parallels are the same. Except that women have more choice not to participate in their medical rape. Sadly animals don’t. Let me know if I can help.
But I am glad I found this site and that so many women feel the same way that I do about male gyno’s. I’m okay with women gyno’s but now I’m done with it all thanks to what I have read. Because how can the males turn it off? Even if they don’t want to feel that way, it’s impossible not to at times.
Hi vegan4animals. So glad you found us. The more the merrier as they say.
This is a great site. I would recommend reading through the articles and comments and arm yourself against the tyranny of unwanted paps and other examinations. Its great that you can set yourself free from the unreasonable demands of some doctors.
I am not vegan but i am vegetarian. My philosophy is be kind to animals, each other and the planet.
look after yourself
Welcome, Vegan for animals
I think many women don’t view screening exams or tests as a choice, we’ve been brainwashed to believe it’s just part of being a woman so get on with it.
I’ve never accepted that, I made an informed decision decades ago not to take part in cervical screening and later ruled out breast screening.
I found women don’t get real information on the pros and cons of screening, they often don’t get a real choice, consent is assumed, recommended does not mean compulsory.
It’s important to find a doctor who views you as a competent and independent adult, who doesn’t speak down to you or over you, insult or scare you etc.
My GP does not mention cancer screening, it was ruled out long ago.
You might have to visit a few doctors before you find one you can work with, it’s nice to know you have a doctor you can trust..if you need one.
Don’t stress about this stuff, do your reading, get informed and find a decent doctor is my advice.
Good luck to you and welcome to our forum.
Thank you both Linda and Elizabeth
Hi to all,
I don’t consider myself any thing but normal, but the thought of these exams sends a cold chill right up my spine. I have never been what you would class as promiscuous having only ever been with three men in my entire thirty years of life and before any intimacy with any of them a time period of at least six months was needed by me to prove some sort of commitment from them,so I’m certainly not somebody you would class as easy . And yet at the doctors you are supposed to disregard your personal worth and allow a person who you have most likely met only minutes ago to conduct what amounts to foreplay,so until a more reliable test comes along with a less intrusive nature I’m afraid I will remain one of the unscreened and happy about it and when they try it on I just laugh in their face and say don’t bother I’ve heard it all before
My wife last week had a miscarriage, the hardest for us both is that I was not there with her, as I am 7,000 miles away working.
She went to a private hospital for advice and before she knew it, the hospital staff were performing blood tests, urine test, height and weight, and also not informing her of the reasons as to why they wanted to do things.
After a few hours had passed she was eventually seen by a female Obigyn, who sat her down and asked the routine questions. The Obi then asked her to remove her lower garments and inserted a speculum then followed a pelvic exam. The Obigyn informed her she has or has had a miscarriage and that she would need to have a vaginal ultrasound. My wife asked if the person performing would be a female and was told it was a male, but it was alright as he is very professional. My wife refused and again asked when a female sonographer was going to be available?
She was informed that a female sonographer was going to be on duty the next day and that is was imperative she had the procedure done straight away, as she could become very sick, placing more concern on my wife and stress.
My wife had no consoling by anyone in the hospital in regards to her losing a baby, not to mention they did not even assess her mental state at the time. They just bombarded her with fear tactics, so that she eventually gave way to having the procedure done.
I was only informed of what happened the next day.
My wife was then sent to the operating theatre a few hours later to have a D and C done. Before she had the surgery, she was not consulted properly by the female Obigyn, as the consultation was done over the telephone. My wife was asking the nursing staff as to what aesthetic she going to be given during the surgery over 5 times and still was never informed.
It turns out that she had an epidural, so not only knowing she has lost a baby, she was being made to go through the ordeal of having her uterus scrapped out whilst awake.
My wife afterwards is now showing signs of depression or some type of PTSD and feels she has betrayed me, as she believes in the constitution of marriage and vowed that no other man would touch her their, let alone no other man would see her naked.
She informs me she feeling dirty and I am far from happy either because her choice and her ethical vows were ignored and dismissed by people wearing medical uniforms under the umbrella of Science and medicine.
If women do not wish to be seen by male doctors, the medical profession should honour that and not gas light or put pressure on female patients to have invasive private things done to them regardless!
It is about time medical professionals started acting more like human beings, showing women patients empathy and understanding. If women choose and it is their right to choose, the Doctors should acknowledge this and honour the patients requests, rather than making them feel inadequate and stupid!