-
Hang on to your knickers and read what a Doctor has to say on the subject of pap smears and pelvic exams. What follows is a comment from Blogcritics.org written by a Doctor that uncovers an honest and all-male point of view (Warning: may be disturbing to some readers):Apr 07, 2010 at 4:08 am
Hello,
I’ve read several of the posts here, and just wanted to get a few things off my chest . . .
I am a doctor myself, in a smallish town in the midwest. I’m in a specialty where we do not do pelvic exams, but of course I was trained in how to do them while in medical school. It has always bothered me, for a couple of reasons, but the male/female thing has been the main thing originally. I always got a small, secret thrill out of doing a pelvic exam (or a breast exam, for that matter) on an attractive woman. Because we were told that “it’s not sexual,” “it’s just a medical procedure, nothing sexual about it, no reason to have sexual thoughts,” I though I was weird. I didn’t worry that much because I knew I wasn’t going into an area where I would do exams, but…
Then, during residency, I worked with a lot of doctors in the community, and discovered that, for most of them, it WAS at least partly sexual: they would sit around in the lounges and such and sometimes discuss the anatomy of beautiful women who’d been in, and on two occasions discussed, in front me and everyone else, the sexual anatomy attributes of women who worked in the hospital, nurses and such that were mutual acquaintances. I was horrified! I have to say, too, that many doctors, when I asked (because it bothered me), talked about it like, “Oh, it’s just another test to have to do, kind of boring, really.”
Still, the inescapable fact is that a guy likes to look at a naked woman. Period. Doctors are no different. They like to look at naked women, too. So, if they get PAID to look–I mean, really LOOK–at a woman’s sexual organs, and even better, they get to touch them, well… So much the better! I’m not saying that doctors do exams just to get a sexual thrill, because the circumstances really don’t allow a full-out sexual experience, but given a choice between doing a lung exam on an 80-year-old guy or a pelvic exam on an attractive 30-year-old woman, I’d say most docs would MUCH rather do the latter. They’re only human. They would flatly deny having any such thoughts (in most cases), but deep down, they ARE men, after all.
So, I think sometimes part of what prompts docs to urge women to have more testing is, that secretly they kind of like doing it. The money doesn’t hurt (i.e., they get paid to do it). In terms of pap smears being unnecessary for post-hysterectomy women, they also probably often just don’t know–there are several things in my specialty which GPs do wrong, all the time, even though they should know better. The ACOG recommends that even without doing pap smears, women have pelvic exams regularly, to screen for various cancers that are of very little risk. I’m sure part of that is just the “hyperscreening” that we’ve gotten sucked into, part of it is the money, and part is the male domination of women (gives you a great chance to stand there, fully clothed, with a woman who is naked and in a vulnerable position), and the chance to look at and touch naked women.
My wife (my second wife) and I got married last year, just past age 50 (for both of us). She had a hysterectomy (for benign disease) nearly 20 years ago. Before we married, she got kind of funny one day, then when I asked about what was wrong she admitted that she had had to make an appointment to “get my pap smear,” which she felt guilty for missing for the previous few years. I informed her she didn’t need one any more, and she told me I was wrong, that her gyn had told her she DID need them YEARLY, even though she’d had a hysterectomy. I showed her the research and persuaded her not to go back, ever, to that gyn.
Later, in looking at her records myself, I find that she had a small cyst removed from her back a few years ago. The surgeon did a complete pelvic exam as part of the physical before surgery. A VERY complete pelvic exam. There was no need for that (he did NOT record anything other than lungs, heart, breasts, and pelvic exam on his H&P report). A couple of years later she had a small cyst removed from her shoulder. THAT surgeon (a different one) did a complete breast exam as part of her H&P. My wife works in the hospital, with all these doctors (she’s in administration). She had her first colonoscopy last year, and the GI doc did a complete pelvic exam as part of her exam. Again, no medical reason to do that. She is not unattractive (not a magazine-model stunner, but attractive–I think she’s the most attractive woman in the world, but realistically she’s average attractiveness).
In my office, I am now doing a small study. I’ve asked women who come in (either as patients or as family members of patients) who are aged 30-60, who have had hysterectomies, whether they have continued to have pap smears/pelvic exams and whether their doc has recommended they still have them. I rank them as “attractive,” “not unattractive,” or “unattractive,” being aware this is a judgement call and not really PC (but the ones I’ve judged “unattractive,” I think everyone would agree, are really not attractive at all). So far, I’ve had 14 women agree to answer my questions, and the results have stunned me: of the 4 unattractive ones, all were told they no longer need to have pap smears/pelvic exams, because of their hysterectomies (even though for one, the hyst’y was for cancer, meaning she DOES need to continue exams). Of the 4 “not unattractive,” 3 have continued to have paps/pelvics irregularly (not yearly but every few years, at least), and 2 told me their doc told them they needed them, in one case “yearly” (and her doc was the same one who told 2 of the unattractive ones not to bother with exams any more, including the 1 who had had cancer)–the other 2 never asked and were never told anything by their doc. Of the “attractive” ones (all of whom had hyst’y for benign disease), only 2 have continued paps/pelvics, but all told me their doctors have continually told them they need to come in for regular exams, including pap smears and pelvic exams (interestingly, all but 1 had the same doctor who’d told 2 unattractive ladies not to come back). My wife’s (previous) gyn had told one of the unattractive ladies not to have further paps/pelvics, and 1 of the attractive ones she really, really needs them regularly (and she has, until our discussion).
Make your own judgement there, but that’s one more reason to be skeptical of attempts to get women to have regular exams. If I were a woman, I would not go to a male doc for such an exam, ever. http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/
forwomenseyesonly 
This blog is disturbing. The comments made are so so sad. Until this very day and reading this I have never thought back to the day my mother took me at 16 to her gyn for a ‘check up’. I think she wanted to check if I was sexually active. The gyn must have been 70 if he was a day and I remember so clearly how violated I felt. I was molested by my stepfather at 6 years old, date raped at 15 (all without my mother knowing) and had to be subjected to an unnesessary ‘check up’ and internal exam by a gyn at 16. It’s no wonder I have huge issues with sex to this day and I’m 39. 😦
I am terribly sorry to hear of your violations. May I suggest that you explore an avenue to prevent others from experiencing the violations to which you were subjected. The only sexual violations that I have experienced have been at the hands of doctors. Two such occurrences took place at a major clinic in Midwest. There is a serious problem with women being sexually violated and exploited by doctors.
Nicci, I’m so sorry.
That’s the real tragedy here, that almost all of this damage was/is avoidable. Routine pelvic exams are not recommended anymore for good reason, they carry risk, even unnecessary surgery and there is no evidence of benefit. Dr Carolyn Westhoff, ob-gyn (and an American) has written several articles on the futility of this exam and the risks, she partly blames this exam for your high hysterectomy rates (1 in 3 US women will have one by age 60 – gulp…so much for the well-woman nonsense) and for the loss of healthy ovaries after false positive exams. You’ll find her articles online.
Putting women and teenagers through an unnecessary invasive exam that carries risk is hard to understand, IMO, it’s very bad medicine and seems to be protected by a medical profession that now relies on this annual exam to keep up revenue/profits. I’m middle-aged and have never had a routine pelvic exam and never will…I would never risk my health by handing over my asymptomatic body for an unnecessary rummage-around. Routine breast exams have been out for some time as well, there is no evidence of benefit, but they lead to excess biopsies. I’ve always refused them. I’ve also passed on mammograms (when I turned 50) and have never had pap tests. (as a low risk woman) All informed decisions made after I did my own research, I found official sources of information to be biased and unreliable and most doctors just recommend women have screening, some pressure, some use coercion. I found a great doctor who listens to me and respects my decisions.
The damage that is done in the name of women’s healthcare is shocking…we need to trust our bodies and protect them from harm. If we make an informed decision to test, at least we understand what we’re agreeing to, we’re not just having something “done” to us.
The doctors I respect are the ones who are fighting for change – for some respect for informed consent and for evidence based testing. Excess is about profits, not doing what’s best for women.
I admire the doctors who respect, defend and protect women, not defend and protect pap testing, mammograms etc
People like Dr Gilbert Welch, Dr Margaret McCartney, (who declines pap testing as well) Professor Michael Baum, UK breast cancer surgeon, Dr Peter Gotzsche from the Nordic Cochrane Institute and a few others.
These doctors remember the motto: first do no harm.
I think most women have a very strong natural sense of who’s creepy or not – even when it is a doctor. However, society keeps imposing things like “grin and bear it” when in fact, it is your own body – you have your own choices and you do NOT have to bear it.
My own mother has always supported the notion that male gynecologists are better at what they do than female gynecologists. Sound absurd? And sexist? Well, it is. She has no claims to back it up and repeats it like a broken record, as though it is the ultimate truth. And she keeps on going to male gyns because she truly believes in this. Mind you, she is only 42 so it is safe to assume that it is not quite a generational thing. I believe it has to do more with what society is imposing on us as women AND as patients. Put your health and trust in the doctor’s hands – he knows best. But sometimes he doesn’t. All the comments I have read above are proof of this. And I think it is time to start listening to people’s experiences and concerns rather than belittling them. Telling a woman who has been molested by a male gyn that not all male gyns are like that is a poor way of facing the issue she has faced. It is basically like telling her “put your valid concerns aside and simply love men even when they are predators”. No. Just stop this approach all together, because you are doing more harm and good.
At age 17 I was diagnosed with Hashimoto’s disease, which according to my doctors messes up your hormones almost entirely, but I also had irregular periods. My ever so caring grandmother found a very respected and “professional” endocrinologist whom we visited when I had just turned 19. We both sat and showed him my blood tests, spoke about my hormonal issues, about my diagnosis etc. Mind you, in front of his office, the women were largely in their 40s and 50s because apparently it usually takes a while for this disease to be caught and I was “lucky enough” to know early. When we brought up my irregular periods, the endocrinologist immediately said I should be screened to make sure there are no cysts or anything else wrong , causing my hormonal disbalance even though as a endocrinologist he knew that my Hashimoto’s disease was messing up with my hormones. My grandmother was quick to say that no, I couldn’t be screened internally because I was a virgin. The doctor looked at me, in disbelief and said “Really? Not even once?” I honestly didn’t know whether to laugh or cry as a reaction. His question was beyond absurd so I just smirked and confirmed that no, I had never had sexual intercourse with a man. Boy, I wish that had discouraged him. I don’t know if he didn’t believe that a 19 year old girl could be a virgin or if he thought that I was lying to get out of it, but he kept pressing during the same appointment and during the next one. Myself AND my grandmother who was with me each time, had to insist that, no, he is not “examining” me that way until he finally settled for screening me through my stomach, looking clearly displeased with the fact that neither of us would budge. And even after that screen showed that nothing was wrong with my uterus, glands etc, do you know what he said? That an internal exam would still be more reliable, as a way to guilt us into “doing the right thing”. He wasn’t even a gynecologist. Let that sink in. When we left the office, my grandmother and I agreed that I wasn’t going back to that doctor. We listened to our instincts and I was better off for it.
Two years later, at age 21 and still a virgin, I went to a female gynecologist who upon learning that i was a virgin simply said “That’s okay, we can screen your ovaries/uterus etc” from the stomach area. And that was it, she did , it was all fine yet again, no cysts etc. Close to the end of the appointment, she said “Make sure to tell your next gyno you’re a virgin so that they know to screen you like this and not internally.”.
My next gyn, two weeks after that was a man, and the first thing he said when my grandmother and I went into his office was “Who’s getting the pelvic exam?”.
The clear differences between these experiences have got me thinking that even though many male gynecologists are good at what they do and probably do not abuse their power, I am simply better off with a woman. And no amount of pressure from my mom or society has managed to convince me to get a pelvic from a male gyn and I don’t intend on letting it happen any time soon.
Trust your instincts, ladies. If you don’t like a doctor, do not agree to an exam with him. Stick to your guns and don’t let yourself be bullied into a humiliating or painful experience. Because trust me, you are unlikely to forget the time you gave in to do something you knew would embarrass you. And to all the doctors abusing their power, shame on you. You shouldn’t be a doctor in the first place.
PS: My mother has told me about her horrific experiences with the male midwife during my birth and still lets society brainwash her into believing male doctors are more capable of handling a woman. ( Word choice on purpose ) I’m sure they believe they are.
Maria, I think women who are bullied or coerced into invasive testing often carry trauma right through life. It never leaves them…
I saw a study that showed opportunistic pap testing can lead to psychological issues, yet our screening authority encourages GPs to do just that….screen opportunistically. It’s not surprising women end up traumatized, we may be happy to see any doctor for a ingrown toenail, but he/she may not be our choice for a pap test. We may also, be caught off guard and unprepared mentally and physically for an invasive test. We’re being forced into something we don’t want at that time or at all.
I’m pleased your grandmother supported you…the consult room can be an intimidating place. I think we need to be careful with doctors, especially new/unknown doctors, stay alert and have an exit plan if you become uncomfortable. It’s far better to make an excuse and get out, than live with trauma for the rest of your life. I think coercion is a very serious matter and IMO, coercion negates all consent. Hardly surprising some women feel they were assaulted after being forced into testing…when informed consent is required for all cancer screening and the Pill has nothing to do with cancer screening, it is IMO, an assault. Can you imagine a man being told he must have a rectal exam or he can’t have Viagra? Or a colonoscopy before he can receive non-emergency medical care…yet many women face coercive demands on a regular basis, especially American women.
So when do you need an exam? I take the depo shot and have been told i need a yearly exam now that im over21
K, by yearly exam I assume you mean the well-woman exam. This is not recommended in many countries, it’s not an evidence based exam and IMO, is far more likely to harm you.
I’d take a look at the evidence base for these exams and practices in countries like the Netherlands, Finland and even the UK. Routine breast and pelvic exams are not recommended at any age in symptom-free women and no pap testing is offered before 25 in the UK and 30 in Finland and the Netherlands and under the new Dutch program only HPV+ women aged 30+ will be offered a 5 yearly pap test.
At 21 I can’t think of any routine health checks or screening that might be helpful…if you’re on the Pill, a regular blood pressure test is necessary. Otherwise, I’d just be seeing a doctor when I need to…for medical advice or for symptoms. In mid-life many people see the doctor every year or two for general checks (blood tests, BPT)…and some people have mammograms and bowel cancer screening. (at 50)
Some countries recommend breast screening at 40, but I’d be very careful following that recommendation. I know some American doctors do routine visual checks of the genitals, this is not recommended in many/most countries. The very suggestion is horrifying, I’d run, not walk out of that consult room.
Basically, most of the invasive exams and testing on the symptom-free female body are IMO, unnecessary, unhelpful and even harmful and cancer screening is elective…always make sure you know what’s being done to your body. A simple test can lead to some very ugly places.
There are many articles covering pap tests and young women and why they’re a bad idea.
This is a summary from the UK that may be of interest.
http://www.screening.nhs.uk/cervicalcancer-qa
In my opinion, the new Dutch program is the best in the world for those women who wish to test, it identifies the small number of women at risk and protects the vast majority of women who are not at risk from unnecessary testing and over-treatment and it offers HPV self-testing.
My husband is an internal medicine resident, as are many of his friends. I showed him this article and he and his counterparts all agreed that when doing pelvic exams, there is absolutely nothing sexual about it. It’s ALL about context. I don’t find the tone or supposed intent of this article to be helpful or insightful at all. If your motive is to induce anxiety in women, well done. I am certain you will get many page views because of this, but at what cost?
I’m not saying there aren’t some physicians out there who don’t get a rush out of giving a pelvic exam to an attractive woman, but there are many, many who don’t. My husband says he finds pelvic exams terribly awkward and would prefer never to have to give one ever again.
If I were secretly a sexual predator who loved giving pelvic exams, and when confronted my co-worker and the wife of my co-worker, I would lie and say that “there is nothing sexual” about pelvic exams. It’s a shame that you are callously dismissing the experiences of many, many women in this thread of comments. This blog post is about AWARENESS and letting women know that they (not doctors) are in charge of their own bodies. Even if your immediate circle of doctor friends were telling the truth, that is only a handful of doctors in one geographical location out of hundreds of thousands of doctors.
Hannah,
I agree with you completely. Male residents and doctors will keep their lustful thoughts private.
Betsie, do you really think that your husband would admit that he got sexually aroused? I doubt it. You only have his word for it. But even if your husband was able to look at naked attractive women in a non sexual way, that doesn’t mean many other doctors don’t. I find your comment to be extremely naive.
Betsie,
You should ask your husband to give up doing pelvic exams. He should let female doctors and residents do them. See how your husband can refuse to do pelvic exams at http://patientmodesty.org/studentconvictions.aspx. it is very normal for heterosexual men to be sexually aroused when they see a naked woman. Do you really think your husband can stay pure in mind 100% of the time? Even godly men who have committed to purity have lustful thoughts from time to time. One pastor said he had some lustful thoughts when he saw some scantily clothed women on a beach. He made a decision to not go to that beach anymore. Pelvic exams are worse than scantily clothed women because women’s private parts are exposed in pelvic exams.
Betsie,
I’m sorry about the other comments. I don’t usually post on these things but I think the article is too outrageous to leave it.
I’m a medical student in the UK and I’m doing my obs and gynae placement at the moment. We all have to learn to do speculums and vaginal examinations by the end of our placement. I’m a woman, and I find it awkward and a bit difficult to perform a speculum, and I know the majority of my colleagues feel similarly. It’s not something any of us look forward to and really it’s just something we want to get good at and then leave it.
I’ve no idea what it’s like in the US, but in the UK women are meant to have speculums every 3 years either after the age of 25 (England) or after 20 (Scotland) to get a smear test done – which has greatly reduced the incidence of endometrial cancer. It’s also often done by female nurses. So the opportunity for general practice doctors to see young, healthy and ‘attractive’ patients and get to give them a speculum is rare. Most of the speculums they do will have suspected pathology. Who finds it sexually attractive giving a speculum to a woman who has smelly/bloody/purulent discharge coming from their vagina?
I’m sure it probably does happen, where doctors do find it stimulating but I cannot imagine it would be this big a problem … I wonder if there is a blog site where men have posted their experiences of being sexually abused by the perverted female doctor giving them a prostate examination.
I think this blog just panics women about getting an examination that could be necessary and make them more prone to suspect it’s a form of abuse, and falsely accuse doctors. Yes – it’s uncomfortable, that doesn’t mean the doctors are only doing it for their own joy!
Perhaps more communication about the examination, what exactly is going to happen and what the doctor will be doing will help to prevent this in the future.
Sorry – I’ve been rambling, but I’ve just found this whole thing a bit gobsmacking.
Outraged Medical Student,
I hope you are also suitably outraged over the prosecution of the British GP earlier this year who was found guilty of filming intimate examinations on his watch. His victims totalled over 300, the youngest being 14 years old. But this is rare isn’t it? I’ll say it was rare – he got CAUGHT. How many others share his perverted tendencies. Have you read some of the posts on this website from women who have been violated and traumatised by (mainly) male doctors? Are you outraged on their behalf?
How telling that you save your outrage in defence of your medical fraternity.
Back to the same-old – miss-the -point post.
I think what this article has achieved Betsie, is the confirmation for a lot of women who feel that there was something not quite right about their pelvic exam, that pehaps they were the object of unprofessional conduct. And instead of just brushing it off and telling themselves that they are being silly and the doctor is a professional, that perhaps they should listen to their instinct and they were right after all. I think that a lot of women would find it hard to reconcile what they felt and the context of where it happened and this just brings it out into the open. So I think it’s a good thing and it doesn’t cause anxiety but it just validates what women have experienced (Including myself). And just from my experience and my friends’ experiences nearly all of us have had an experience where we have walked away feeling something was amiss-whether it was a remark or staring just a little too long or making requests that are not clinical requirements.
Nobody knows what another person is thinking or feeling when they are doing pelvic exams and breast exams. Nobody is going to admit that they enjoy doing them and I am sure that a lot of doctors do dislike doing them, but let’s not kid ourselves, some obviously do. In fact it can’t be that unusual when I heard that medical students actually have made up a well known acronym -TUBE-totally unnecessary breast exam.
You cant speck for all woman. some woman do find these exams sexuall . If a woman wants a pap or pelvic and knows the risks thats one thing. But there are alot of doctors who make woman feel as tho they have no right to refuse or they try to withhold unrelated care untill the woman sumits. Even if a doctor only sees the exam as meadical weather they like it or not pap smears do involve penetration with objects. So if a woman feels forced to have a pap smear or is told she “has to” this is a form of rape as far as the law is concerned.
Wow, Stephen, I don’t think you couldn’t hit any more misogynist tropes if you *tried*. You want to know why feminists are nasty to you? It’s because you are a pig-ignorant, misogynist douchebag. It’s so obvious you think you’re one of the “good guys”—that would be hilarious if it wasn’t so unbelievably wrong. I feel sorry for every woman in your life who has to listen to you spew bullshit and call her “too emotional” and “dumb cunt” whenever she disagrees with your obviously superior Man Opinions and Mansplanations.
You’re used to people caring about your opinion because you’re a man, even when you know jack shit about the subject. You’ve been spoiled utterly rotten by the patriarchy and now you’re throwing a tantrum like a petulant two-year-old. You are not enlightening anyone on this thread; you are just painting the walls with your own poo. No one wants to see it.
tl;dr: Shut the fuck up and go away. No one cares about your opinion. Get used to it.
This comment has been removed.
Thanks for that, Elliot. You said exactly what I wanted to say.
Reading these comments makes me want to leave the planet. I cannot BELIEVE the ridiculous victim-blaming and gender stereotyping being spewed out. It’s extremely insulting- women are emotional wrecks! men only think with their penises! women should prevent these things from happening to them! Men have lots of testosterone= they’re all sex mad! I sincerely hope somebody is just trollin’ and doesn’t actually believe what they’re saying- Men are more intelligent than women and if it wasn’t for men women would have nothing!- WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK? Misogyny is running rampant on this thread, and it’s making me want to vomit.
As for the original topic:
I am deeply sorry to everybody who were violated by doctors (of any gender). It’s a sad fact that malpractice exists across the health profession spectrum, and anybody can be a bad doctor. It is not just men, it is not just women. ANYBODY can be a bad doctor/nurse/midwife/dentist/orthodontist etc etc etc. We need to hold these people accountable for their behaviour, so that it does not happen again.
Male doctors are in court on regular basis for abuse of women, very few women believe it happens…pailrider
Male doctors are at the fore front of sexual abuse of women.
pailrider.
When I was 13 and started menstruating, my mother decided all my problems were caused by the fact I was sexually active (which I wasn’t) and forced me on birth control. I was terrified of men due to previous abuse. I was so terrified I wouldn’t even go near male teachers. I remember I cried during the entire pelvic exam, but my mother didn’t believe me that I was still a virgin, and the doctor didn’t confirm or deny it. I’ve always been scared of pelvic exams since then, and when I was 18 I was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer in the vulva. It had nothing to do with the birth control or abuse, it was just a genetic mutation, but extremely rare.
My gyno oncologist, Dr. Townsend was the most gentle, kindest man I had ever met and he made me not afraid of the exams anymore. He talked to me while he worked, he told me that if anything made me uncomfortable he would stop immediately and we were never alone. There was always a female nurse there to hold my hand, help explain things and to make sure I was comfortable. He always made sure I knew exactly what he was doing and he was always modest, making sure I was covered appropriately and he only looked at what was necessary when it was necessary. He made sure I knew what to look for and what was normal in a pelvic exam and to always trust my instincts with doctors, because I’ll have to have yearly exams for the rest of my life, even after a hysterectomy. He taught me that it was MY body and had final say, even to doctors, if I’m not comfortable with something, even if it’s a doctor, to say so, and always request a female nurse is present with a male doctor. He was one of those doctors that made you feel more like a human being than a body on an exam table, and I’ll always be grateful for the things he taught me and also for saving my life. I just wanted to share my story, because Dr. Townsend is what doctors should be, and he deserves the respect and kindness he showed me.
@ Anonymous,,, I am so glad to hear you found a great doctor. There are not enough doctors like that. I hope you get to keep that one. 🙂
That’s good news. But personally I don’t like the idea of a nurse present as a spectator. It would only make me feel more uncomfortable having even more people in the room than is necessary. I don’t know how this is supposed to protect anybody from a doctor having improper thoughts. I also wonder if that Dr Nikita Levi who filmed all these women having pelvic exams with a pen camera around his neck had a nurse present. Also let’s remember the nurse is there to protect the doctor against any false accusations, not the patient from the doctor.
Hey, I’m really glad you found such a good gyno, who treats you with the respect you inherently deserve.
why do you need yearly exams still for the rest of your life?
It’s obvious he wasn’t able to cure you, but that’s not surprising since allopathic doctors can’t cure, they only treat symptoms and like the other commentator I do not see the use of a female nurse present either. If male doctors require female nurses, doesn’t that confirm the idea they are inherently untrustworthy?
And I’m sorry but if that doctor was that kind he would have never entered this business in the first place. I have read too many times of women loving their ‘gentle’ doctor, not having a clue of what real respect is, treating them like children and thinking they were saved. How so, by cutting out your organ(s)? This business in itself is disrespectful of women and you have to be truly paternalistic to think that it is justified as a man to be in this business.
Also, it’s really gross and disturbing to see people post about how they “forbid” their wives from doing things. Fuck outta here with that.
Women should respect their husbands by not going to male doctors. Women are more easily deceived than men so it is wise for women to take their husbands advice. Male doctors are untrustworthy.
Patriachy at its best. Women know what is best for their own bodies.
Wait…so in order to make sure they are not taken advantage of by untrustworthy male doctors, women should trust their husbands to make medical-related decisions for them? Their husbands. Who are men. Just like the doctors.
Sound logic there.
I do not like my wife going to male doctors. My wife is attractive and the doctors that worked at the hospital out patient clinic where she worked at would try to hit on her. Not all but enough. Unfortunately, she had an affair with one of them. We reconciled after tons of counseling but I abhor her being touched by any male doctor for female exams. Am I being unreasonable?
I wouldn’t say so Greg. I wouldn’t be comfortable with that either in your position – especially not after reading all these stories. The important thing is to remember that she is her own person and you can’t make the decision for her*. It’s something you shoud discuss and decide together.
(*I’m not trying to assume you would, it’s just earlier I read a comment saying they had ordered their wife to never see a male doctor for a pelvic/breast exam, and it was rather unsettling.)
I prefer my wife to see female doctors….after her affair with one. She had an affair with the same doctor twice….I suspected the first affair and we quit associating with the doctor and his wife….then ten years later they had another affair. When this affair was exposed she admitted the first affair. I told her I wouldn’t have stay with her those ten years if I had known for sure. I was going to divorce her and she begged me not to. It took three years of counseling to get through that mess. She had also gone to male plastic surgeons that she had worked with in the clinic at the hospital without consulting me. My wife is attractive and some of the residents hit on her while she worked there. I did not want her going to a male doctor she knew through work…That caused me a great deal of anxiety also. After that….I absolutely did not want her seeing male doctors unless there was not a woman doctor in that area of need. She had been seeing a female doctor but that doctor left for a practice in Hawaii 4 months ago. So…she got a little drunk at a party, fell, and bruised a rib. I wanted her to get it checked out with her doctor. Then she told me her doctor moved to Hawaii. She told me she could get into see a male doctor right away. She has breast implants. The bruise was under her left breast. I really aborred the idea of her seeing another male doctor. I called a minor emergency center and found our there were some female physcians working there and she went and saw one. I know my attitude may seem unreasonable but I absolutely do not want another man touching her again. This is because of the affairs, the resident examing her during her pregancy that knew her from the clinic…her failure to consult me before she went to plastic surgeons, and a few other incidents. Not all doctors are pigs but I have had enough bad experiences I am done with them. I told her two days ago that if she went again without telling me that we were done…
Your posts are very interesting, Greg…
It makes me wonder how much of this exposure is really necessary and how much is sloppiness, couldn’t-care-less attitudes or even opportunistic viewing given legitimacy by the medical setting.
I know some hospitals provide paper pants (some hide very little, others are opaque) and others (especially in the private sector) can provide all female surgical teams and/or a closed theater, others can prep you privately… (before a c-section) I know women who’ve requested these things in the private sector.
In some cases husbands have been asked to leave the theater while their wife is prepped for a c-section, but assorted male onlookers have been allowed to hang around and view the woman being shaved and a urinary catheter being inserted…who is protecting the patients privacy in this setting? Why couldn’t a screen be used during prepping? Or at least ask the extras…orderlies etc to leave?
I believe if it’s unacceptable when someone is awake, it’s unacceptable when they’re asleep. I know “difficult” people are often just knocked out so they can be prepped without “concern” about their modesty and dignity.
I must say I fear ever needing surgery…I really wonder whether a medical advocate system should be in place, someone to watch over you when you’re compromised or unable to do so…
There are some posts over at Dr Sherman’s medical privacy blog that show just how distressing these breaches of our privacy/dignity are and the impact they can have on people. Is it really a successful procedure if we walk out of hospital in one piece…but are left with permanent psychological damage? The medical profession needs to remember they’re treating a person, a human being, not just a body.
I know greater effort is made in some private hospitals. I was impressed with the way patients were treated at a local private hospital; my mother had bowel surgery. Male nurses took care of bathing, shaving etc for male patients and female nurses for women. Of course, the public system would say it’s too difficult with staffing issues…not good enough.
There was a concerning post over at Dr Bernstein’s patient privacy blog. A father angry and upset over the actions and attitudes at a public hospital. His 18 year old daughter was having her appendix removed and a male nurse was sent to shave her pubic area, she refused and the nurse challenged her, “my training is exactly the same, I’m a professional” etc…after becoming distressed and threatening to leave the hospital, her father arrived to take charge. The senior nurse “agreed” a female nurse should have been sent as well…what a ridiculous thing to say, you send a female nurse, why tie up two members of staff? I think it also shows a system in crisis or one that couldn’t care less…most people would understand that a young woman would not be happy with a male nurse doing something like that…and you wonder about the people who didn’t feel they could object or who gave in to pressure. Of course, when we’re asleep, a male/female nurse might shave us etc and we can’t object, anything goes…it shouldn’t.
Elizabeth, I agree. The excuse “it’s the OR” should not be an excuse to suddenly start treating people as if they have no modesty or dignity. I have heard horror stories of women having their pictures taken while they were anesthetized and naked – some with their legs up in stirrups. One woman was wheeled out from the OR still completely naked into a public hallway, no one had bothered to cover her up. People should be treated the same when they are under sedation as when they are awake.
Here is an interesting link to a site . . . a survey revealed that sexual abuse and predation in hospitals and other medical establishments is similar to levels found in the church, and is covered up in similar fashion: http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.ca/2012/03/medic-sex-abuse-worse-than-church.html
FWEO, Exactly, predators are cunning and will find a way to get what they want so a sloppy hospital is a great place for them, or anywhere else where people are vulnerable, compromised…childbirth is an area of concern. The Birth Trauma sites are the stuff of nightmares.
http://birthtraumacanada.org/
Quite a lot of hatred on here, mostly from the women. Look, stay clear of male doctors. It’s not rocket science. Get your brains in gear. Do you seriously think male doctors are morally above everyone else? Stop being so hateful and start using common sense.
Thank you for your straight forward and obvious response. Well, at least I thought it was an obvious answer to the problems being brought up. Some obviously do not agree. It’s really easy to just say “I want a woman doctor”. In fact, every gyno office I’ve ever called has asked if I have an issue with having a male doctor if they have one on staff. It’s the same concept as if you don’t like butter, don’t buy it. It’s really that easy. No hate needed, no anger needed, just a little common sense.
It’s not always that easy. If you’re choosing a doctor for yourself you can look for female practitioners. What if there aren’t any in your area? What if none of them are covered by your insurance? Etc.? Do you have $200 extra dollars to see a doctor off your network? If you’re in the hospital, unless you’ve been admitted by a specific surgeon for a procedure s/he will be performing, you don’t have a say about who treats you. You’re seen by whoever is on duty in the ER or the hospital that night. The same is true with the nursing staff. If you’re there for an urgent or emergency matter the hospital isn’t going to say “sure, hang on, we’ll scour the hospital for a female doctor for you,” they’re going to treat you on the spot.
The onus should be on physicians of both genders to treat their patients respectfully and not to coerce them into unnecessary testing.
Such a simple solution but it doesn’t work for everyone. I have been without a family Doctor for 3 years now because I can not find a female one. I’m going to have to bite the bullet and take any man I can get.
A, I have been without a family doctor for years and have discovered that there really is no need for me to have one. Years ago I made an informed decision to decline a pap test and my former family dr refused to keep me on as a patient as a result of my refusal. Since that time I avoid drs whenever possible, and my cervix and reproductive organs are healthy and intact – in my opinion because I don’t have paps. Drs are able to charge extra fees for every screening test they order, and some are very motivated to perform pap tests for other reasons as well . . . as this post and comments have revealed.
There is a book written by a doctor who explains how doctors manipulate women. Many male doctors think women are stupid. Well, I do believe that men are smarter than women and are more skillful, but that is no excuse for doctors to take advantage. Women should oppose these barbaric exams and start standing up to these male perverts.
You might believe that men are smarter but the science does not agree with you. Why would a person be smarter because they have a penis? Many men only think with the penile brain, not the one in their head.
Thanks, didn’t know about the book. I wouldn’t say it’s stacked that way, though. Men aren’t necessarily smarter or more skillful- a lot of things men do don’t work as intended or they do half-asked. There’s a lot of “not actually functional, but using it as a means of doing something”- some of it has to do with ego (or just not taking things seriously, but sometimes they act like that’s an effeminante trait).
I think Stephen called in reinforcements lol
just forget about them
We should also forget about you, because it’s obvious you haven’t got any intelligence.
JudyC, men naturally think with their penis because of the level of testosterone. However, even though men think with their penis, they are still smarter than women. Look at the things men have created. Women could not survive without men, even though the feminist media tries to convince women otherwise.
Give me a break!
Men have for ages shunned women from schools, they still shun them from getting the highest positions in society so they couldn’t even show you what they can do and you think it’s a sign of men’s superiority? Lol
BTW if men are going to continue with their lovely inventions, soon the world will be destroyed. Thanks men, we really couldn’t survive without you!
Where is your science for that? You can’t say that men are smarter because of what they have invented when they have been actively preventing and subverting women throughout the ages. Women used to have to assume a male name as an author to be published is one example.
Yeah, Joe, what a shock that forbidding women from getting an education or a job for centuries and centuries would result in fewer women inventors? What are the odds?
Dumbass.
I think Joe might need to read up on History. Since the beginning of time Women weren’t ALLOWED to do things like read, go to school (and when that changed they weren’t allowed to be taught anything besides how to fold napkins or sew etc) they weren’t allowed to tend university etc. No wonder history is filled with Men and their inventions. It has only improved or women int he last hundred years and even that was slow moving. It’s really been mostly in the last 60.
That’s a fallacy actually. Many matriarchal societies thrived before the current Westernized one. All societies have their rises and falls, but by no means does that make the current male-dominated one any better or even more advanced. On the contrary, some of the most advanced cultures were pre-Greco, and very much so women-led.
Elliot, you have a foul mouth. This website is about male doctors, not about spewing hatred towards genders.
No Joe, you are the one spewing hatred towards women with your sexist remarks, don’t try to turn it around.
Oh no, did I hurt your feelings Joe? 😦 Maybe you shouldn’t reply to my posts until you’ve stopped acting so emotional. Because dude, you are totally overreacting. I’m not insulting men, I’m insulting *Stephen*. Although if your feelings are hurt by what I said, perhaps it’s because it struck too close to home. I’m not going to argue.
Gosh, I really hate when men get too emotional to have a rational discussion. You can never get a word in edgewise, you just have to listen to them go on and on….
Yazz, even today men are the ones who create most of the technology and create businesses. If it wasn’t for men creating all this wonderful technology, millions of women wouldn’t have a job. Most women have lazy jobs, working on a computer or a machine that men have created. I would like to see a woman invent and build an airplane or a space ship lol. Never gonna happen.
You refuse to take into account that women only recently have gained more rights in the western world and we still live in a patriarchy, so it’s totally unfair to make a comparision between the genders without looking at the context. It’s a weak attempt to try to ‘prove’ supposed male superior intelligence. Besides there are different forms of intelligence, some that aren’t even acknowledged as intelligence by those ‘smart nerds’ who create the type of machinery you mention and who will due to their narrow mindedness be helping us into destruction because they lack holistic thinking just like them lovely allopathic doctors who can’t cure or heal any disease with their high tech equipment.
Why are people arguing about who is more intelligent? This is about male doctors. Yes, men are naturally smarter than women. So what? It has nothing to do with this discussion.
In my opinion, male doctors should not examine women, period. Male doctors are still men.
Joe stop polluting the forum and stop posting as ‘anonymous’ please, you don’t even know the definition of intelligence, so you can’t take part in this discussion, thank you very much.
I didn’t want to post this because I don’t believe any gender is smarter than the other. I believe we are all shaped by our experiences and genetics. But here you go…. the largest gender brain study ever has proven women are smarter then men. 😛
Part 1
Yazz, even today in a society where women have rights, it’s mostly men who create businesses and invent technology. Thanks to men, millions of women are able to have jobs. Today, there is far more sexism towards men. Don’t be a hypocrite.
“Far more sexism towards men”?
Is your biology associated with being a coward, weakness, and lack of physical strength?
Do people think that when you don’t meet their standards for a respectable human being, they’re entitled to comment on your body, touch it without permission, talk about you like you can’t hear? Are those standards usually tied to how provocative they deem your clothing, how many sexual partners they think you’ve had, how easy they think you look, or how sexually attractive they find you?
Did you grow up being told that you’re supposed to like princesses, and ponies, and fashion, and makeup – then when you got older these things suddenly became signs of shallowness and vanity, and needed to be cast off if you were ever to be taken seriously in the real world?
Did you get conditioned to believe your body in its natural state is gross? Do people speak as if everything you do is for their benefit?
Are you expected to continue conversation with every stranger who tells you they find you attractive, on penalty of being considered a stuck-up bitch? Do you have to worry about guys getting violent, because they can’t accept you’re not obligated to give them your time?
Do you get told unless you do absolutely everything in your power to avoid sexual assault you’re a dirty little whore who deserved it, but when you react to strangers with the necessary caution, you get accused of being a bitch who “thinks all guys are rapists”? Do you have accept that maybe it’s true and just deal with the guilt, because you cannot risk the one time you let your guard down being the one time he really is one?
When you become interested in an element of geek culture, are you accused of being “fake” and constantly expected to prove otherwise?
Do you constantly get your experiences with sexual assault and harassment invalidated and dismissed? Called “ungrateful,” because you don’t feel flattered when five drunk guys all twice your size cat call you from across the street? Get accused of being a “slut”, “asking for it”, sending “mixed messages”, or lying about being raped because you “regretted a one-night stand”? Even when people believe you, do they insist it’s uncommon, despite hundreds of other people who’ll say they’ve had the same thing happen to them?
A man invented the speculum. It is barberic and looks like a mid evil torcher devise. A man has no idea how having the speculum inserted whould feel. I do beleve it was invented to tourcher woman. The father of modern gynecology was sick in the head. He tourcherd woman and killed them with his inventions and testing on them.
This was a very good article. Do not be fooled that a nurse (chaperone) protects you from a male doctor having lustful thoughts or sexually abusing women. See “Do Chaperones Really Protect Patients?” (http://sexualmisconductbydoctors.com/chaperones.aspx)
Always have some one you want in the exam room
Indigo, it’s interesting how you ignore the vile comments that some of the women have posted. I’ve also seen it happen over and over again where men will get banned on forums for saying things that women find offensive, but not vice versa. There is nothing worse than female bigotry. It’s perfectly okay for women to spew vile insults at men, but if men do it to women there is an outrage. You’re gonna have to learn that the whole world does not revolve around women.
I am against male doctors and how they manipulate women and take advantage of them. But women also need to take responsibility. Oh no! I forgot! Telling women to take some responsibility makes me a misogynist. Ah well, so be it. The truth is, male doctors can only do what women allow them to do. If women are naive enough to believe that male doctors don’t look at women sexually, then they will reap what they sow. Instead of putting all the blame on perverted doctors, we need to encourage women to stop following the lemmings and start thinking for themselves.
“Oh no! I forgot! Telling women to take some responsibility makes me a misogynist. ”
No that’s not why you are a misogynist. That’s because of claiming men are smarter than women and women have supposed lazy jobs and couldn’t survive without men. The latter is kind of the same basic reasoning why those ‘superior’ men invented gynecology to take care of us ‘defective’, weak and hysterical women..
Saying “Victims need to take responsibility for their abuse” is fucked up because no one is responsible for the actions of someone else.
The people we are discussing are adults with the ability to think and reason, tho sometimes their reasoning is flawed, distorted, or based on false beliefs. No one is being forced to abuse someone else. There is no phantom and no wild drooling beast. We live in a culture that socializes men to perceive women within a certain framework, and discourages victims from speaking out against sexual assault.
Notice how in the story of the patient who noticed her gyno getting an erection, the male gyno she tells this to covers for the other man without question.
I really angry about this, you didn’t speak with diplomacy and expect people won’t attack you, by saying men smarter than women and only men do job,invent something,business or whatever that without men,women will not survive… Where were your reference and facts you get from ? IQ calculation was hype and not always true,inventing something won’t verify that the nation or genders as genius and there were false positive about this . Hey,if you come to my country,women will have more features and role than male,women work harder than male and male just some bunch lazy gits and the percentage of women in mensa community more than male you know. I was wondering where did you get your false positive reference.
You are mistaken and too arrogant to admit that women will have their own role, no more and no less than male…. In one department, for example a fashion magazine,there were many women and men work together to achieve mission… for example,women in journalist,consultant and men in management as men will have credibility in working with fixed time,manage something and talk with gentlemen but women will have to work together to influence with psychological issue handling and begged about contract and investment,giving emotional support,common sense and reading mind and some men weak too as they didn’t even have common sense and too slow to read someone mind and thinking based on factual and in only one ways….. then,the role of women was very important in this context…
Actually,in invention world and hacking world,both women and men have their own intelligence and their own ways of thinking and both respected and treated equally..You think no female inventor and hacker in the world…. you obviously mistaken,you better teach yourself more ….. women and men were like hardwares and softwares ,butter and bread,blood and life and both were not perfect…. there were some weakness about both .men and women .
In fact,both women and men have their on ways of thinking and innovation of both female and male based on culture,support,education,social influence and don’t be shocked if there were on earth women wiser than men. Women so slow in innovation as they usually think in various ways,the core ,based on emotional than total factual
then,they will invent something longer than man as women lost the factual thinking here…they can reach but just slow…. and men just the oppose…. yes,they claim as genius creature ever but they usually thinking in one ways and just based on the factual,check just important thingy and refuse related things that they think was not so important and yes they got solved many problem and invent many things but they
obviously can’t retrieve a piece of information as lack of common sense than female and they can be cheated in this way, they can reach it,just so slow…
Some people who were very high in IQ but low in EQ went nowhere and can be manipulated by some greedy folks/opportunists even they were so genius due to lack of features and information in nice timing,in this context,people so quick in judging just because they were genius in one ways,they clarify themselves as genius , refuse other people who were genius just they were but talented in other way.
You really need to recheck psychological research paper and just because women too attractive and more vulnerable than male plus because of the nature of thinking in women,you assume women as weak,lazy and not intelligent as you are ? I can be a colossal jerk in this but I think you can figure out it by yourself… If you want to debate with me about why IQ test was hype…. I more than happy to debate with you about why,when,who and whatever… and in hacking world and invention,papers or notes will be written like this….. she/he will………. he/she up to……. she…………………………………. and he……………….. (This is to accept and approve female or women intelligence and assume both male and female as equal. ).
I’m not aggressive feminists but your words really force me to write. Sorry to forwomenseyesonly.com admin for talking off-topic as this is gynecological and women matter blog but I’ve talked about how women just intelligent as men,how both women and men important and lack of common sense about this…
I was deciding to have my first exam since this is the only test I have never ever agree to do, I thought I needed it but so far no problems, after reading this I would never ever do one. If I die so be it, but I am not going to put my life on the hands of perverts to decide if I am attractive enough to deserve a better care. After all beauty is in the eye of the beholder but you are too much doing this, you think you are helping women but you are not. You are a bigger pervert than you give yourself credit for.
Men, this is about women being violated by Drs. I feel my wife was and I support these women. If you are going to blame the women you are an idiot. Stay off this site. This is about women or men telling about their bad experiences. Not a blame game or who is the superior gender. Some of you men seem to enjoy baiting these women….I pity your wife or girlfriend. You probably have neither because of your atitude!
Thanks Greg for speaking up and being a real man!
Real men aren’t threatened of the idea of gender equality and don’t need to feel superior over women to feel like a man.
Greg, if only you had bothered to pay attention to what was said. Instead of making hasty comments, it would be a good idea to pay attention to what people say before you respond to them. We agree that women have a brain and can think for themselves. A male doctor can only do what his female patients allow him to do. I am personally disgusted at how some of the doctors take advantage of women. But let’s be honest. If the patient is young and attractive, most male doctors are going to get somewhat aroused. It is ludicruos to think that most doctors are going to completely switch off their sexual feelings. The question is, why are women silly enough to go to male doctors in the first place, unless no female doctors are available?
These male gyno’s will get together, have a few beers, and have a good laugh at all those naive women who submit to whatever the doctor tells them to. The problem you have is that it has become politically incorrect to put the burden of responsibility on women. But the truth is, if women are stupid enough to avoid female doctors and go to male doctors for personal exams, they are going to reap what they sow. It’s that simple!
Greg, what do you think of male doctors?
I was a scrub nurse in surgery for 5 years during college. You observed and learned who the competent doctors were and the ones you wouldn’t let operate on your cat. During a benign cyst removal on a young lady the surgeon made the comment after removing it that she wouldn’t even have a mouthful left after the cyst was removed. That was extremely unprofessional and pretty much sums up what he was thinking. I knew several residents during this time frame. Guys are guys I hate to say so I will be brutally honest. I assisted on some D&C’s, not very sexually stimulating to watch. I also assisted on a variety of other cases. In some cases they will remove the entire gown…say…while preparing to turn you onto you stomach for back surgery…and yes, you will be completely naked. It is the OR. As a male…I did see some reasonably attractive female bodies in the buff. Was I sexually aroused..NO. I didn’t remember any sexual comments made by the surgeons or nurses (male or female) during the surgery. The patient is under anethesia when the gowns are removed and things happen fast. However, I did hear comments my male nurses and anethetist later on in different settings. That led me to not wanting any males present in the OR when my wife had surgeries. Especially since she worked in the same hospital. On one occassion when my wife had surgery the anethetist was a male nurse I knew and I did not like the idea of him being present. After that my wife no longer had surgeries at that hospital.
In a setting where the woman is conscious? I find it hard to believe that a man cannot have subconscious sexual thoughts when examining an attractive woman. A man performing a breast exam? Having an attractive woman in stirrups exposing all of her private parts right in front of your face? As a man I have to admit I might be sexually curious even though I knew I needed to be professional. Would I do anything inappropriate, absolutely not!! As a man I some how cannot see how a heterosexua sexual man could maintain 100% pure thoughts while examing an attractive woman.
Greg that is wonderful you were not aroused by the naked women. I agree with you that men are men and have heard experiences that suggest unfortunately that all men do not feel the same way as you, and from what I understand it is for the most part not safe for a woman to be unconscious, naked, and helpless in surgery when men are present. Worst of all is when a woman finds the courage to complain she is dismissed/told her experiences were just the effects of the anesthetic. Here are links to a story of an anesthesiologist who sexually assaulted 21 women while they were anesthetized. The worst part is that the women complained but were ignored, and the dr was permitted to continue to practice. The only thing that finally stopped him was one woman with the presence of mind to have the semen from her face swabbed and sent for DNA testing. Only then could he be stopped as the complaints on their own continued to be ignored:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/01/17/toronto-ddonaught-trial.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2013/02/01/toronto-doodnaught-trial.html
This guy needs to go to prison. I was not implying that I saw improprieties being committed during surgery. We always had a circulating nurse moving around and I am amazed that some nurse didn’t notice what he was doing, or suspect something. I am amazed that it took so long for the hospital and police to launch and investigation. Touchy feely doctor? I guess that is an understatement. They need to sue the hospital for not doing something. Doctors complain about malpractice insurance. However, they do not police each other and incompetent Doctors continue to practice and cause damage to patients. It only stops after the hospital is sued a number of times and the hospital rescinds the Doctor operating priviledges. One doctor that had his priviledges rescinded applied at a small time hospital requesting operating priviledges. It was fortunate that there were people on the staff that knew about him at the hospital that rescinded his priviledges and they refused to allow him to operate there. The doctors nickname was Dr. Debutcher. He had a high rate of mortality and infections with his patients. His atitude was such that he was a doctor and was above everyone else.
Yazz, why would men feel threatened by equality? It’s so obvious that you are bitter. The whole world does not revolve around women. You’re not that special. I’m happy for women to have equality. It doesn’t threaten me in the slightest. Women are just paranoid.
If there’s one person that sounds bitter, it is you, dear Joe! Stop acting like you are the victim, it’s really pathetic, especially on a site like this that discusses the abuse that is inflicted on so many women. Yet, even here you feel the need to put yourself on a pedestal and belittle women, how low can you go?
“why would men feel threatened by equality?”
YOU are the one feeling threatened, NOT ‘all men’. You feel so inadequate, that you need ‘all men’ to put up against me, coward that you are!
The fact is that you feel the need to look down on women to make you feel stronger and smarter, it’s obvious in every comment you have made so far. That you think women are ‘just paranoid’ is a symptom of your flawed thinking that your ego needs to feel special, better and bigger, grow up please!
When you feel threatened by feminists, you feel threatened by equality, it’s that simple. Nobody here has started to belittle men, but some insecure men like you have made some nasty, blanket statements about women (amongst which you have called all women paranoid, not just me), then you don’t need to come whining about ‘sexist bigotry’ when you get to be told where it’s at. And I’m not ever behaving like a ‘lady’ just because you tell me so. Go get your sexist ass out of here and stop whining, you’re not all that special and the world will never revolve around you, sorry. A real man does not feel the need to think of women as below him, dumber and lazy as you do. I hope someday you will find your manhood on your own. Good luck with that, you’re gonna need it.
Joe, I appreciate you taking an interest in this topic and commenting here. But the topic at hand has been taking a bit of a side step. As a wise woman from Blogcritics has said recently: “When you abuse women, you abuse the people who love them. This is a fight that should unite, not divide, the sexes.” (Elizabeth, Aust.) Thanks, Sue
Anyone know why copy and paste fails…?
No, we don’t know. It’s not really important
Thanks for your help…
Wow I am amazed but not shocked! I can not even tell you how many full pelvic exams I have had since I was 16. Seemed normal untill i read this! Now I feel a bit sick! One of the comments I read made me feel very ill, when she stated it was not just male doctors to be aware of, as I remember haivng an exam and smear at the request of my female doctor, and when I said that she must hate this part of her job, she smiled at me and said she really enjoyed it – Needless to say I was very uncomfortable lying there all revealed to her! I will never have another one done again!
Thank you for bringing this to females attention.
[…] Eyes Only blog, posted an article from Blog Critics written by a male doctor which summarizes what may or may not be going through a male doctor’s head when he’s performing a Pap sm…I read it first thing this morning after seeing it reblogged on my tumblr dashboard. I know that […]
Really interesting!! When I was 18 and not yet sexually active, I went to my GP in a rural area in South Carolina, and was told I needed a pap smear by my male doctor, who then instructed two medical students (one male and one female) to perform the procedure without asking my permission first. Being nervous enough before seeing the two students, I refused the procedure (which I was told I needed if I wanted a birth control prescription). I now exclusively see female gynos, and was told that a pap smear is unnecessary and can even be dangerous to virginal women.
Anonymous, well done for refusing to submit. Blackmailing women with birth control is just another dirty trick. Don’t fall for it. Doctors must rely on people’s naivety and ignorance in order to control them. Think for yourself. Listen to your instincts. Doctors are not gods, and they have NO authority over us.
AND cancer screening has nothing to do with the Pill, this is a tactic used to increase screening rates, but violates both informed consent and consent itself…IMO, a woman coerced into a pap test to get the Pill or anything else has been assaulted. No wonder some of these suffer psychological harm including PTSD.
Just a note to Joe and any Joe-like commenters – this site is supposed to be a “woman friendly” site and a safe place for women to share their experiences. Any further comments that are an attack against women in general, or against any women who have commented here, will be deleted. There are already too many places in the world that are not safe for women.
How many male doctors have been convicted of rape?
Hundreds and daily I receive news confirming that more are in court accused for sexual abuse of women, see my link today.
I, too, believe that male doctors are dodgy. They shouldn’t examine women.
[This comment has been removed as it was posted by someone posing as “Yazz”, but who was not the same Yazz posting the other comments. If this poster by coincidence has the same name please repost with some clarification regarding the name}
Hey Yazz, sorry that you experienced that.. he never should have been able to do that. Self care is so important, and if you don’t feel comfortable or safe going to male physicians, that is your right. I hope you have a good support system to lean on if you need to.
Doctor attempts rape on 14-year-old, arrested
Kanpur: A doctor has been arrested for allegedly attempting rape on a minor girl who was staying with her ailing grandmother at a hospital in Kanpur. The accused sexually assaulted the 14-year-old on the night of March 2, when she was with her …
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/doctor-attempts-rape-on-14-year-old-arrested-340466
Doctor attempts rape on 14-year-old, arrested
Kanpur: A doctor has been arrested for allegedly attempting rape on a minor girl who was staying with her ailing grandmother at a hospital in Kanpur. The accused sexually assaulted the 14-year-old on the night of March 2, when she was with her …
http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/doctor-attempts-rape-on-14-year-old-arrested-340466
Im 17, and I came here looking for information pap smears,because my mom says that ill have to get one when im 18 (or since time within that time range). After reading this, I know for sure im not getting one. The only thing ill agree to do is the examination they can do on your stomach (like a few others have already mentioned). A lot things ive seen in the media have made me not want to trust men, and and some points I was close to considering becoming a feminist. I know I can’t do that because there are some males that I know that weren’t aren’t like that at all, and I know truthfully and honestly they’re not.
But anyways, before I get off topic, I wanted to thank all of you women that have expressed your feelings about this topic in the comments. Thankyou so much.
Sigh….curse this phone and all the typos its caused.
Hi Danielle,
i assume you’re American, not even the Americans recommend pap tests or pelvic exams before 21 and for very good reason…the pap test is high risk for no benefit in those under 30 so some countries don’t offer screening before 30, some include a margin and say 25 (UK) and the States, 21. (IMO, far too early)
Routine pelvic exams are not evidence based and are not recommended at any age in symptom-free women in many countries – they’re far more likely to harm you.
Screening should be your informed decision, we’re talking about your body, health and life.
If you end up facing a doctor, make clear you know the recommendations and are not consenting to the test and will report any pressure to test, is the doctor aware of the “current” recommendations?
At your age I avoided doctors finding it all a bit intimidating and overwhelming, now at 55, bring it on, age has it’s advantages. In the end your mother (and the doctor) needs your co-operation, don’t give it to them…she can’t drag you there and remove your clothing. At 21 you’ll be in a better position to fob off your mother and make your own informed decisions.
There are numerous articles on the risks of early screening…do some reading.
I’ve found being informed offers some protection, doctors back off quickly when confronted with someone who knows the facts and her rights.
It’s important to find a doctor you can work with and challenge when necessary, and with this insane focus on screening, it will be necessary.
“Why are women under 25 not invited?
This is because changes in the young cervix are normal. If they were thought to be abnormal this could lead to unnecessary treatment which could have consequences for women’s childbearing.2 Any abnormal changes can be easily picked up and treated from the age of 25. Rarely, younger women experience symptoms such as unexpected bleeding or bleeding after intercourse. In this case they should see their GP for advice.
In June 2009 the Advisory Committee on Cervical Screening reviewed the policy of starting screening at age 25 and agreed unanimously there should be no change in the current policy.
Please see Written ministerial statement and Minutes of the Advisory Committee [PDF 86Kb] on Cervical Screening’s meeting on reviewing the age to begin screening.
A research paper, Sasieni P, Castañón A, Cuzick J. Effectiveness of cervical screening with age: population based case-control study of prospectively recorded data. BMJ 2009; 339:b2968, focusing on women screened under the age of 25 was published in the BMJ. It stated:
‘Cervical screening in women aged 20-24 is substantially less effective in preventing cancer (and in preventing advanced stage tumours) than is screening in older women'”
Taken from:
http://www.cancerscreening.nhs.uk/cervical/about-cervical-screening.html#invited
Older women should also understand what they’re agreeing to, we know that only 5% of women aged 30 to 60 are HPV+ and at risk, these are the only women who should be offered a 5 yearly pap test. So for those who wish to test, take a look at the new Dutch program, 5 hrHPV primary tests at 30,35,40,50 and 60 (or self test with the Delphi Screener) – pap tests will only be offered to HPV+ women. IMO, this is a much better program – it identifies the fairly small number at risk and takes most women who are not at risk (HPV-) out of pap testing and out of harms way. Population pap testing harms too many women and why would any HPV- woman wish to spend her life having unnecessary pap tests?
http://www.uspreventiveservicestaskforce.org/uspstf11/cervcancer/cervcancerrs.htm#clinical
The American recommendations
The first time I was given a pelvic exam, I requested a female doctor. However, she brought in a group of medical students to observe. I was not comfortable, but nobody seemed to notice or care.
Anon, that is totally unacceptable, you’re not a body provided for medical training purposes. I suspect they deliberately “surprise” women in the examination room (when you’re vulnerable and exposed) hoping you’ll say nothing and allow the exam, complete with unwanted audience. I imagine quite a few women would refuse to have an audience for that sort of exam.
IMO, this sort of treatment has a lasting and negative effect. You should have been asked when you entered the surgery…you don’t just storm in assuming the patient will be okay with a crowd.
Did you send a letter of complaint? I think doctors/nurses etc rely on our silence…just “putting up” with this sort of unacceptable treatment. So many people carry trauma as a result of violations of their bodily privacy and dignity. Dr Joel Sherman and Dr Maurice Bernstein have 1000s of comments on their blogs on medical privacy.
This is so true. I went in for a uti and the male doctor insisted I had a papsmear and pelvic exam. I’ve gone to females ever since.
Not for all male doctors but for most it is indeed sadly a sexual experience for them.
I’ve always had an inkling that this type of situation could occur, so call me paranoid (though apparently not) or maybe just uncomfortable with the idea of a strange man looking around down there, but I will never have a male doctor for a routine pelvic exam. I’ve had one male doctor do an examination, and while there was a female nurse in the room and all went fine, it did drive home the creeper feeling from a modesty perspective, and so that’s that on the future pelvic exams being a ladies-only affair for me.
I think this issue speaks to the whole idea of knowledge is power. Since I wouldn’t trust a male doctor to not have these thoughts, I don’t even want the thought to have the potential to be thought. It’s unfortunate that it is left to the patient to be aware and educated on this issue, when doctors are supposed to be professional health care providers that we can trust in, confide in, and show our bodies to, with the idea that this is the one situation where you are not being judged for physical appearance beyond the health-related.
That said, I think the line between “having the thought” versus “acting on the thoughts/speaking loudly about those thoughts” is a solid line. All of us like to let loose about work once in a while, but knowing that my doctor-patient relationship could be tossed aside so I (or my lady parts, as it may be) could be rated attractive or not, is unacceptable and makes the already invasive nature of gyn exams all the more unappealing.
I appreciate the moderator from stopping further foolish attacking comments from men towards women on this blog.
Women have been abused far too much through out the ages. And now that we have a voice and try to make our situation better too many women ruin it…..
I feel threatened by *some* feminists and I do not feel threatened by equality at all. It’s just that I don’t want women “abusing” men as their way to stand up for their rights. If you read through-out this blog some of the comments from women to the men are down right vicious! I don’t want to be represented like that. It’s not that I don’t understand how difficult it is not to lash out at some of the mind boggling idiotic comments some men have posted, I get that. I get filled with righteous anger when we’re degraded. BUT I don’t however feel it justifies degrading someone back.
Women have fought long and hard for our rights but sometimes it feels like what we’ve gained is the right to act like the asses some men have been to us. I’m not for that. I want to be respected and I feel that putting others down, even when they are clearly borderline delusional is no way to inspire others to respect me.
Yes I believe in equality. Which means that YES I would prefer NOT to see name calling or degrading comments from women to men on this blog either.
so I’m way late to this discussion, but I’ve found a bit of comfort in it I guess and felt compelled to comment. I had my first pap ever today.. I got accepted into a great university and am getting ready to move out soon. My mom insisted I get a pap done before I go. My grandmother had cervical cancer, so our family’s at a higher risk. I came in trying to stay calm and relaxed and wasn’t overly anxious until it was time to start.
I was in so much pain my breath was in shuddery sobs, the doctor was nice and she asked if I wanted to stop, I told her no, to get it over with as quickly as possible. I cried like a baby but humiliation of any kind didn’t register over the pain. The humiliation of being felt up, seen naked, and had the fingers of a stranger up an intimate area didn’t register until a bit later after I’d calmed down. My big sister picked me up and I cried the entire way home, not sure why I was so emotional about it. I called my mom (whom I don’t mean to demonize, she is a lovely woman and a great mom and I love her with all my heart) who told me it was part of being a woman and I needed to calm down and let it go. I cried a few more times today, feeling ridiculous for being over-dramatic about what seems to be such a routine procedure.
I don’t blame my doctor, I don’t blame my family, I consented and the doctor did her job, and my mother was just concerned for me due to our family history. BUT, none of that stops it from being an unpleasant experience. I’m really unhappy about it.
There’s got to be a better way to do this.
I am sorry that you put yourself through this. I am also sorry to say that your Mum is wrong and cervical cancer does not run in families. You had an unnecessary procedure for a very rare cancer. I am so sorry that you cried after the examination. Your Mum is also wrong to tell you that it is part of being a woman. She had been fooled by doctors into thinking women need their reproductive organs checked on a regular basis to stay healthy. It’s all a money making con.
Once again, I am sorry you were subjected to this horrible and humiliating exam. Stay away from these doctors – they are not helping you, they are making money out of you.
I hope you feel better soon.
Mia,
So that makes you about 18…FAR too young to be having a pap test. You should know there is a fairly high risk the test will come back “abnormal” as young women produce the most false positives. 1 in 3 for those under 25 and that can lead to some nasty and potentially harmful places. There is no benefit pap testing those under 25, just risk, and in fact, no country in the world has shown a benefit pap testing those under 30.
There IS a far better way to deal with the small risk of cervix cancer, you offer those aged 30 to 60 HPV primary testing (or self-test with the Delphi Screener) and ONLY the roughly 5% who are HPV+ and at risk should be offered a 5 yearly pap test. Most women are not even at risk and cannot benefit from pap testing.
The rest of the exam is not evidence based and carries risk…routine breast and bimanual pelvic exams are not recommended in many countries for very good reason and more doctors in the States are trying to get rid of them.
Like so many women your mother probably felt this was important for your health, in fact, it was unnecessary, unhelpful and has exposed you to risk as well as caused you emotional distress.
If I were you… I’d do my reading and protect myself from further harm…knowledge will protect you.
You are not higher risk because of your grandmother, cervix cancer does not “run” in families. The only women at risk of cervical cancer are those aged 30+ who are HPV+….
If you’re American the doctor was operating outside the guidelines anyway…even in a country that has always practiced excess and non-evidence based women’s “healthcare” they no longer recommend pap testing for those under 21. If your test result comes back “abnormal” be very careful permitting biopsies or “treatments”…apart from being distressing for many women, they can cause damage and lead to health, reproductive and obstetric issues. This is why we should be protecting our young women, not exposing them to risk for zero benefit.
[…] Gross, sexist, creepy gynecologists. […]
After reading some of the comments on here, I am SO sorry I finished college with my Bachelor of Science in Mathematics BEFORE being informed of how inferior my intelligence is compared to those of the penile persuasion! I may have done the right thing and quit, so that a smarter male could take my place as an instructor of mathematics! Maybe I should just put away my calculator and document camera, now, and go put on an apron. Wouldn’t want some impressionable young female student to get ideas that she might be just as smart as some of the males in class because the instructor is female.
That said, ladies, we’ve all been there. We’ve all learned better. When you are 17, you are generally naïve and to expect a 17 year old GIRL who has been forced into ritual compliance her whole life to know what is medically prudent and to put her foot down is unreasonable.
Men, you will never know the experience of females – we spend our childhood and youth “going along to get along” because we are physically vulnerable. If we are unlucky enough to be born into a family that doesn’t value females, it is only once we have achieved a level of independence and safety can we stand up for ourselves without being forced to do what we don’t want to do. If you had truly experienced this and yet managed to achieve anything with your life and career, you would no longer be insulting a woman’s intelligence – you would instead be marveling at her superior coping mechanisms and machinations in the face of adversity.
This further goes to fuel my dislike for gyns. As an advocate for natural child birth, home birth, etc I am often met with opposition. I have seen countless stories about women who were being forced into an unnecessary c-section, who when they stood up for their rights as a patient that can refuse any treatment, gyns have received court orders to force these women to do what they don’t feel is best for their baby or themselves. It goes back to the man’s desire to control a woman.
What makes this even worse now is that God-awful stupid new show on Disney Jr, Doc McStuffings. She says things like, “You must do whatever a doctor says even if you don’t agree.” And then all her little stuffed animals sing a song about it! This isn’t just one episode! That same message has been in every episode I have seen!
How about this message to our young girls: LEARN TO THINK FOR YOURSELF AND TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS!!!!!!!
When I was pregnant with my second child I had some ‘uterine irritability’ as they called it and was given an I.V. and some meds to calm the irritability. Before discharging me a male doctor [not my doctor as my doctor was a woman] came in and insisted on doing an exam to see if I had dilated. I told him no, if I needed a check one of the nurses could do it. He got very angry with me and said that if I ended up back in there that night he would do a cervical check whether I wanted him to or not. I could not believe what I heard, I was in shock!
When I was thirteen my mom suspected I might have a kidney infection and took me in to see a urologist. He told me to cross my arms over my head, held my arms down, removed the paper shield and did a breast exam on me while I was fighting against him. I cannot believe women trust male doctors, I really don’t understand it.
A breast exam by a urologist???? and on a 13 year old girl
There is NO way that could be justified clinically, was your mother or a nurse in the room at the time?
If not, why not? A report to the Medical Board would have had him scrambling for cover. The breast exam was IMO, for his benefit, not your benefit and the way he did it is also, concerning, setting you up for an exam he knew was unnecessary.
These men know what they’re doing, misusing a position of trust and authority to take advantage/abuse…and they know how to pick a victim and work the system.
The doctor who threatened to do a cervical check whether you consented or not, was basically threatening an assault. It amazes me how brazen these men are and you wonder how often they abuse women. They rely on our compliance and silence…and the system protecting them, but that’s changing, finally…and more women are now making formal complaints, seeking legal advice or contacting the Police. We had a dermatologist assaulting women under the guise of doing a skin exam, thankfully, one woman went to the Police and after it went public, lots more women came forward…and even more victims were discovered when Police contacted some of his patients.
We have to be so careful with doctors we don’t know and follow our instincts, you were wise to stand up to that doctor, his anger and threat clearly shows he doesn’t take well to women challenging him and he has no respect for women. It sounds like it’s also, a bit of a power trip for him.
i work in the medical community and i know of a doctor in nuclear medicine who does a breast exam on every-single-patient that is referred to him, no matter what they are coming in for. Apparently a one man quest to battle breast cancer? So good of him. ABUSE of power. When i go to the doctor, and get referred, i make sure that the doctor makes sure that the referral is with a female specialist. That is my right. Don’t just except the doctor they refer you too. It’s often their buddy; the ol’ I scratch your back you scratch mine scenario. The abuse is so rampant its ridiculous.
Same goes for the emergency dept.. There are lots of female doctors in those areas too. Request a female to do an intimate exam. It’s your right. And don’t be intimidated, or made to feel silly, “he is a doctor crap”. They probably won’t bat an eye anyway. Simple statement. “I want to be seen by a female doctor” . Thats all it takes. Soon they will completely forget about you, id their even bothered at all, and in the end they will be more likely to respect you for it.
i was told i had to get a pelvic exam before i got birthcontrol, then recently i want to dr (male ufornutaly they gave me no choice adn said i had to go to him), he said i should get a papsmear i said no, i was going of birth control and wanna get pregnant and he said i had to stay with him and go to his hospital, i told him no i wanted a birth center, he said i was crazy and why would any woman espiecaly one in medical field (i am a rn) would do taht its not safe, and he gave me this whole lecture like i was crazy i tried to tell him studies show what drs do to women in labor is terrible, leads to stalled labor and high c section rate and birth centers are jsut as safe if not safer than hospitals and lower c section and intervnetions required. i cant stand the thought of delieving in hospital, they FORCE interventions on women and give us no control. during the pevlic excam he asked if they drugged me last time to put in my IUD (th epills made me sooo sick i had no other options), why do drs always assume you were abused or somthign when u dont liek the exams? i just want to cry i feel so violated, he seemed short and didnt understand how i felt at all and wanted to force me to go to him and not birth center. it makes me scared to get pregnant…. drs are horrible!!! they make women vulnerable and dont listen or care and act like cuz hes a doctor its ok, well its NOT
this explains my unease when I had to have an abortion and the doctor had ultrasound pics and a letter from my GP but insisted on doing an exam with the door open so my mum could see and he rubbed my legs before he started, I wasn’t being selfish for not wanting to go back like my mum said, he was just a creep
Some of you may find this article of interest and might care to post…
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/04/male-gynecologist-tips-connect-female-patients.html
You can focus on better communication etc, but for some women a male gynecologist is out for all sorts of reasons. It’s our choice, it’s about us, our rights and feelings, not about them.
I’m not a doctor or a woman but the knowledge that I may one day have a wife or daughter that has to deal with this both frightens and troubles me deeply. Being a man, I know how most men think. Professional or not I find it hard to believe male doctors don’t take some kind of pleasure in being able to see women in this very revealing and personal manner. Everyone is different so I can’t condemn all men to being pigs. But as a man I know how I feel about the female body and that most men probably feel the same way. I would be very uncomfortable with another man seeing or touching my wife in these ways. If I as a man can’t bear the thought of the women in my life being subjected to another man like this then I can only imagine how it must make women feel.
The best thing to do is choose a female doctor any time your wife or daughter has to go to a doctor. You may laugh at me and can say I am stupid but EVEN during my two childbirths (one in Poland and one in the UK) I emphasised IN WRITING that I DO NOT WISH A MALE DOCTOR WHILE LABOUR AND WHEN MY BABY IS BORN. The only man that was with me was my husband and except him I had only women. One may think it is overdoing and it doesn’t matter if it is a man or a woman that assists at a childbirth but I wanted to feel comfortable. It was my choice and I had it. Of course, I was told that in case of complications they might call a doctor who was on duty, no matter a male of female and I agreed, but luckily for my first childbirth I had a female doctor (I had some complications at the end) and for the second time I had female midwives. I believe the best method is to have our requirements in writing (if it’s not emergency).
Cheers
I am a man and I believe an honorable one. I can say with certainty that four extra years of school could not lay dormant my instinctual desire and attraction to women. I am happily married, but with marriage there are of course marriage problems.
My first girlfriend, at 16, explained in detail her first pelvic exam. As I listened I could not help but think that it sounded like everything
I wanted to do as a teenager. I did not understand all of it but it sure did not sound right to me. From that time forward I have always been extremely skeptical. I am a pharma rep and I hear the banter behind the receptionist’s glass window. What I hear proves that despite 4 years of college and the insistance that it stops the flow of testosterone~ False. My wife has had her share of predatory experience with doctors. They are not mine to share but were told to me in confidence.
The one that I can and will share was a male ob who constantly tried to claim her as his patient. She refused exams by him. Then came our second child. Another female ob said it was time to induce. Of course this male ob was on call. Keeping it short, he stared down the entire time. I almost asked if he would like his phone for a picture. We are talking 4-5 minutes. The look of arrogant satisfaction on his face was overly apparent. Women know other looks from women. So do we. It was conquest and domination.
I have no respect for men in that profession. Who is kidding who? With the advent of technology and most ob/gyn offices having ultrasound capabilities, what is the purpose of bimanual exams? After gyn appts my wife has been sent for them. If they paint a clearer picture why not cut out that which isn’t.
I am not fooled nor do I care about the whiners and the assertion of four more years of school. A Phd in economics has more than that. Maybe medical school has a Harry Potter magical wand. For sure some well meaning dr is working on a reason to use that in exams as well.
Great comment — Sorry to hear that your wife likely has more stories that she could tell (but respect you keeping her confidence). It is sad but enlightening to see more examples of what is going on behind the “receptionist’s glass window”. It’s a very sick system that sets the stage for this type of sexploitation.
It is up to the individual woman if she wishes to be seen by a male or a female gynaecologist.
She should ALWAYS have the choice in my opinion however.
It is a well proven fact though that a frightening catalogue of sexual abuse by male Doctors is on record. A simple google search brings up an endless list of transgressors.
As in every facet of life the good ones pay for the sins of the bad ones and to ensure I am not put at risk I insist on a female Doctor. But that is MY choice
[…] you really want to get mad about doctors doing this, read this about what male GYNs are doing to females during ;evlic and breast exams. Read down into the comments about how they manipulate attractive women and young girls into doing […]
I’ve had a male gyno before who I felt fairly comfortable with and he even invited his female nurse into the room to hold my hand during the examination. I recently had a pelvic examination done by a new GP, a youngish guy. I had the sheet over me and he moved it out of the way and put it on my stomach so I was COMPLETELY exposed…I have had a lot of exams in my life and never had this happen before with either female or male doctors. Atleast I am pretty sure they usually keep you as ‘covered’ and modest as possible! Am I just being paranoid or is this standard practice? From memory this is the first time it’s happened.
Things like this are why when I am alone in a room with a male doctor, no matter what specialty, I am scared. Genuinely scared for my safety. I see a female gynecologist, and I was diagnosed with PCOS. I had to have a pelvic exam and a pelvic ultrasound and a man did my pelvic ultrasound. I was extremely uncomfortable the entire time. I was too shy back then to request a female doctor, but today I would be refusing to enter the room unless I was being examined by a female.
I have used midwives for myself. I have never had any problems. My husband oddly, one day, asked me if most midwives were lesbians. I asked him why he said that since midwives have always been women who helped the community with their health and as women attended women when needed. Men doing pelvics and delivering babies, to me, is just weird and is a historical anomaly that should go away soon.
I wonder if women decide to have elective c-secs because of past problems with pelvic exams. I do have a friend who was traumatized by being molested as a child, and had her one child in the hospital – she had very explicit directions in her birth plan for her pelvic exams, and a pushy doctor ignored her directions and forced a pelvic on her – she went into a psychotic state and needed to have a c-sec. This was totally unnecessary. The doctor was sued and she won.
How about a diff perspective (and true story). I am a male. Several years ago I applied for a second job, which required a D.O.T. physical. I was sent to a specific clinic near the company office. There were 2 physicians there, one male, one female. When my time came, an attractive female doctor entered the room. She did the usual ( I had had a D.O.T. physical once before). BP check, listen to my heart, eye exam (read the chart, etc), look into the ears, but also a hernia check. This had NOT been done for the previous D.O.T. physical. Anyway, she then proceeded to hold my penis, asking if I had any discharges, anything unusual, etc, while opening the head of my penis. This took what seemed to be a long time. She help the tip open wide and it hurt a bit. She then went over to a small school type desk and without turning away or writing her notes she said I could dress. To this day my wife and I talk about it. She sometimes “plays” doctor and does the same. This event actually DID happen, it is not a fabricated fantasy.
This situation was as bad as the reverse. However, at least men are forced into such situations much less frequently and in much less painful occasions, unlike gyn exams or childbirth. Also, male genital exams do not involve penetrations.
I would just like to say that you for posting this. Generally, I feel like the most honest we are with ourselves and each other the better this world we live in is going to be. Men are visual creatures they get aroused. Okay, then admit it and make it known. At least then its out in the open instead of playing mind games and driving the focus to either health risks and/or money instead. By doing so, it only skews our perceptions even more.
Reading this reminded me of a previous experience I had with an OBGYN. I’ve normally always gone to female doctors for this, though there are two circumstances where I no other available choice at the time so I went to a male doctor. I went in this time cause I was pretty sure that I had some sort of infection that wasn’t a simple yeast infection. So I basically went in and had the full testing with a pap test. We found the problem and gave me an antibiotic. He then had me come in again the next week for an exam “to be sure” that it was gone. I didn’t really see the point cause I trusted myself in feeling the difference, but I went along anyway cause I figured its just best to be safe and know its gone and, of course, I was perfectly cleared. He then told me to come back in 6 months for another pap test and routine tests. I had NEVER heard of getting a routine exam that close before. Needless to say I definitely brushed that off and never went back again. After reading this I now perfectly see what was going on there.
Jennifer,
It is pretty common for male doctors to demand that you have a pap smear often. I am sorry to hear about your experience. This is why I wrote this article, “Why Women Should Avoid Male Doctors For Intimate Examinations?” (http://patientmodesty.org/avoidmaledocs.aspx).
Misty
Remember the film Disclosure? The counselor of a character played by Michael Douglas said that “sexual harassment is not about sex, it is about the power”. OBGYN has got that sort of power. A male doctor can give order: “please undress now” to a woman who is a complete stranger to him, and that is regardless of her age. She might be the age of his daughter or grand mother. And then the female patient seemingly voluntarily subjects herself to violation of her privacy. If a complete stranger made a woman undress and ordered “her knees fall open” to have a closer look and then inserted his fingers into her vagina, would it be unlawful sexual act? I know that there is a medical explanation to it, that “vagina is just like ear”. Well, for me it isn’t. For some reason our culture decided that it was ok to expose the ear, but vagina must be covered. You can get more on the subject here: http://agalltyr.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/a-pelvic-exam-is-rape/ or by googling these 3 words: women against stirrups.
I am a man, and I would never, ever chose my occupation to be OBGYN. Simply because I am not ineterested in shapes, smells, the level of wetness and tightness of all the vaginas in the world. I could only trust my body to someone I love, and expect the same from a woman, my girlfriend. My girlfriend going to a male doctor would be like violation of our sacred intimacy. I would feel like the doctor raped her rather than she had an affair thou.
Well if I am told that a man in his twenties chooses the OBGYN to be his occupation I have hard time believing that he does it solely because he is fascinated by the creation of a new life.
What gets me is doctors think it is okay to force woman to have pap smears no pap no pill or no pap no unrelated health care. They have been trained this is only medical. and fail to see whe they tell woman they have no right to decline, that is rape this exam involves vaginal penetration. How can it not be rape in the eyes of the law. Even the Aco uses laguage to imply woman have to have pap smears or should and there is no right to refuse. There needs to be more regulation with this screening.
I propose reading the whole bit, here:
http://womenagainststirrups.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=questionnaire&action=display&thread=15
The thought that drew my attention is this:
“I think it is time for a change and for us to see through the gynecology industry which motivations are money and power instead of ‘taking care of women’. We need to stop allowing ourselves to be brainwashed by doctors and the media and take back our power, because we weren’t created as victims! Our bodies are not designed to kill us, they are designed to be healthy! It just needs a healthy, stress-free lifestyle and proper diet, but certainly not fear and disrespect.”
If anyone finds this text too long to read, please read the sentences written over the picture, on the web page I have mentioned above.
I have read a lot of these posts on here and they all have one thing in common “most everyone says what can we do about it” Spread the word tell you kids, your neighbors, your friends. I have been where a lot of you have been violated but mine actually caused damage. I was 12 when I had my first exam and the doctor put the think the medical term is the Duck in me when I told him it hurt. He told me he needed it wider and keep opening it. It percided to rip me. After that when I absolutely need to go in I have a woman doctor and I filed a complaint to the board about that doctor. I’m not saying woman are much better because I have had a few that made it feel just as bad but most woman understand and try to make it as easy on yourself as possible. But personally for me and my family since that happened to me we spread the word all of our friends have heard the story. My daughter will when she gets old enough right now she is only 2 yrs old. All my nieces and even their friends have heard about the doctor who hurt me when I was young. Spreading the word 1 person at a time will help a lot more then just siting on a blog and posting it. I stumbled upon this most wont. The lady who’s husband and friends that came over talking about stuff like that when drunk. have you told your friends, your book club, your neighbors. Its all about spreading the word.
When I was in my early 20s I went to an internal specialist. He did a breast exam and when he was finished he said “Im sorry I thought that was your elbow”. My husband was in the room and to this day we still talk about it. THe Dr. was canned a few years ago for sexual abuse. There was no reason to be touching my breasts anyhow!! I really hate doctors to be honest and see a female Dr. now and will only allow my daughters to see female Drs. I dont trust them and I tell my daughters when they are old enough what happened to me.
And if they are not getting sexual pleasure out of the young attractive women, then they are getting their laughs out of older women and their medical issues. I found the link to the Society of Spanish Gynaecologists and Obstetricians’ newsletter which is peppered with degrading cartoons of women and their conditions such as prolapse drawn by a male gynaecologist. Unfortunately, I don’t have the link to the cartoons that were translated in English but the cartoons clearly portray their misogynist attitudes.
One person on a Spanish site about this made an interesting point. She said “Do other specialties make fun of their patients? Do oncologists draw cartoons of people going through chemotherapy and make fun of their baldness? No. Ridicule is only reserved for women.”
Click to access gaceta-electrc3b3nica_1.pdf
Interestingly that link doesn’t work. But I can post this which shows at least two of the cartoons which gives you a pretty good idea of what I am talking about.http://www.elpartoesnuestro.es/blog/2011/09/19/el-parto-es-nuestro-denuncia-las-vinetas-de-la-gaceta-electronica-de-la-sego-ofrecen-una-imagen-degradante-de-las-mujeres-espanolas
I find this article completely disturbing. For me, it is directly related to how we treat women during childbirth. Complete disrespect and not using evidence-based medicine are par for the course here in the United States where our birth outcomes are actually 49th in the world- yes 49th! Only the most educated and lucky women can come out of the hands of obstetricians with their dignity and possibly their perineum intact. This is ridiculous! I personally do not go to any male care providers EVER! I will not ever go to a male care provider even if it’s not for “lady issues”. When is women’s healthcare going to reach the same level of importance and dignity of men’s care? If men got pregnant, you can rest assured that all the bullying to do more and more invasive procedures would not be happening.