The Other Side of the Speculum: A Male Doctor’s Point of View

  • Hang on to your knickers and read what a Doctor has to say on the subject of pap smears and pelvic exams.  What follows is a comment from written by a Doctor that uncovers an honest and all-male point of view (Warning: may be disturbing to some readers):
    Apr 07, 2010 at 4:08 am


    I’ve read several of the posts here, and just wanted to get a few things off my chest . . .

    I am a doctor myself, in a smallish town in the midwest. I’m in a specialty where we do not do pelvic exams, but of course I was trained in how to do them while in medical school. It has always bothered me, for a couple of reasons, but the male/female thing has been the main thing originally. I always got a small, secret thrill out of doing a pelvic exam (or a breast exam, for that matter) on an attractive woman. Because we were told that “it’s not sexual,” “it’s just a medical procedure, nothing sexual about it, no reason to have sexual thoughts,” I though I was weird. I didn’t worry that much because I knew I wasn’t going into an area where I would do exams, but…

    Then, during residency, I worked with a lot of doctors in the community, and discovered that, for most of them, it WAS at least partly sexual: they would sit around in the lounges and such and sometimes discuss the anatomy of beautiful women who’d been in, and on two occasions discussed, in front me and everyone else, the sexual anatomy attributes of women who worked in the hospital, nurses and such that were mutual acquaintances. I was horrified! I have to say, too, that many doctors, when I asked (because it bothered me), talked about it like, “Oh, it’s just another test to have to do, kind of boring, really.”

    Still, the inescapable fact is that a guy likes to look at a naked woman. Period. Doctors are no different. They like to look at naked women, too. So, if they get PAID to look–I mean, really LOOK–at a woman’s sexual organs, and even better, they get to touch them, well… So much the better! I’m not saying that doctors do exams just to get a sexual thrill, because the circumstances really don’t allow a full-out sexual experience, but given a choice between doing a lung exam on an 80-year-old guy or a pelvic exam on an attractive 30-year-old woman, I’d say most docs would MUCH rather do the latter. They’re only human. They would flatly deny having any such thoughts (in most cases), but deep down, they ARE men, after all.

    So, I think sometimes part of what prompts docs to urge women to have more testing is, that secretly they kind of like doing it. The money doesn’t hurt (i.e., they get paid to do it). In terms of pap smears being unnecessary for post-hysterectomy women, they also probably often just don’t know–there are several things in my specialty which GPs do wrong, all the time, even though they should know better. The ACOG recommends that even without doing pap smears, women have pelvic exams regularly, to screen for various cancers that are of very little risk. I’m sure part of that is just the “hyperscreening” that we’ve gotten sucked into, part of it is the money, and part is the male domination of women (gives you a great chance to stand there, fully clothed, with a woman who is naked and in a vulnerable position), and the chance to look at and touch naked women.

    My wife (my second wife) and I got married last year, just past age 50 (for both of us). She had a hysterectomy (for benign disease) nearly 20 years ago. Before we married, she got kind of funny one day, then when I asked about what was wrong she admitted that she had had to make an appointment to “get my pap smear,” which she felt guilty for missing for the previous few years. I informed her she didn’t need one any more, and she told me I was wrong, that her gyn had told her she DID need them YEARLY, even though she’d had a hysterectomy. I showed her the research and persuaded her not to go back, ever, to that gyn.

    Later, in looking at her records myself, I find that she had a small cyst removed from her back a few years ago. The surgeon did a complete pelvic exam as part of the physical before surgery. A VERY complete pelvic exam. There was no need for that (he did NOT record anything other than lungs, heart, breasts, and pelvic exam on his H&P report). A couple of years later she had a small cyst removed from her shoulder. THAT surgeon (a different one) did a complete breast exam as part of her H&P. My wife works in the hospital, with all these doctors (she’s in administration). She had her first colonoscopy last year, and the GI doc did a complete pelvic exam as part of her exam. Again, no medical reason to do that. She is not unattractive (not a magazine-model stunner, but attractive–I think she’s the most attractive woman in the world, but realistically she’s average attractiveness).

    In my office, I am now doing a small study. I’ve asked women who come in (either as patients or as family members of patients) who are aged 30-60, who have had hysterectomies, whether they have continued to have pap smears/pelvic exams and whether their doc has recommended they still have them. I rank them as “attractive,” “not unattractive,” or “unattractive,” being aware this is a judgement call and not really PC (but the ones I’ve judged “unattractive,” I think everyone would agree, are really not attractive at all). So far, I’ve had 14 women agree to answer my questions, and the results have stunned me: of the 4 unattractive ones, all were told they no longer need to have pap smears/pelvic exams, because of their hysterectomies (even though for one, the hyst’y was for cancer, meaning she DOES need to continue exams). Of the 4 “not unattractive,” 3 have continued to have paps/pelvics irregularly (not yearly but every few years, at least), and 2 told me their doc told them they needed them, in one case “yearly” (and her doc was the same one who told 2 of the unattractive ones not to bother with exams any more, including the 1 who had had cancer)–the other 2 never asked and were never told anything by their doc. Of the “attractive” ones (all of whom had hyst’y for benign disease), only 2 have continued paps/pelvics, but all told me their doctors have continually told them they need to come in for regular exams, including pap smears and pelvic exams (interestingly, all but 1 had the same doctor who’d told 2 unattractive ladies not to come back). My wife’s (previous) gyn had told one of the unattractive ladies not to have further paps/pelvics, and 1 of the attractive ones she really, really needs them regularly (and she has, until our discussion).

    Make your own judgement there, but that’s one more reason to be skeptical of attempts to get women to have regular exams. If I were a woman, I would not go to a male doc for such an exam, ever.




    “There are several viable options to screen for HPV without a pelvic exam, including the Cervista urine test. If a patient tests negative for HPV, she has a better chance of being struck by lightning than getting cervical cancer. So tell me, do you routinely offer this alternative to your patients, or do you scare them into returning for their exam every year (which, in itself, is due to the high error rate of paps), withhold their birth control to coerce them into Paps, and make them think that cervical cancer is looming to kill them at any second?”

    • Doctors who are not the same sex as you examining you is inevitable. I have a female GP who ended up checking my testicles for lumps. I also ended up having a female surgeon refine both my testicles when they both were diagnosed as being cancerous.

      • inevitable? People kill me…as if telling the medical community you will stand up and demand your rights is somehow wrong. Patients have rights…and despite what the medical community says in response no is a viable answer. Emergencies are not what I am speaking of.

      • Tracy Ann, how do you know that the female doc isn’t getting a thrill handing his frank and beans, as you put it? There are also lesbian doctors who enjoy doing pelvic exams as well… so how would one know how to tell one from the other? I am asking sincerely since this has become a more sexual society world wide. How does a patient find the right doctor for the intimate exams?

      • The patient decides what exams are necessary, no matter what gender is doing it. And doctors worrying about being sued is balogne…That is just an excuse to do what they want to do…too much of all this is about narcissism and control. Doctors hate it when the patient takes control.

      • Anonymous,
        I agree 100% that doctors hate it when patients are in control. And patients should be in control. First, its their body. Second, its their money whether they pay out of pocket or its a benefit of their employer, they still work for it.

        Too many people do not realize that they need to be their OWN advocate, because if they don’t, no one else will.

        Rhonda Radandt aka nanarhonda

      • As a female medic, I concur with the writer, do not ever go to a male medic , if you’re female , for intimate testing.
        It may not occur to you, sir, that your position comes not only from a childhood memory (and ergo trust) of your mother giving you intimate care, but also from the fact that (although it happens) female on male sexual violence/abuse/harrasement is so rare that any man in a vulnerable position can de facto take for granted his safety at the hands of a female care giver.
        Not so women, who’ve had inculcated by fact, from a very young age, that nakedness UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, is vulnerability to them in a way it never is for males, save maybe in jail.
        This is why females (and males) are allowed to specify the sex of their medical professionals, though males rarely do , except maybe Haredi Jews for instance.
        So maybe you ought to re read this article, especially where the doctor urges women to insist on female OBGYNS ate can, and not dismiss so lightly the mores of others.
        Women have instinct regarding this, women patients must be respected, regardless of the casual dismissal of their fears by such as you.

      • “As a female medic, I concur with the writer, do not ever go to a male medic , if you’re female , for intimate testing.”

        — What a load of sexism! As if only males can be inclined towards sexual wrongdoing – counter to recurring reporting in the news.

  2. Alex, it has been monthes since I have posted hear. I read u asked me why do woman go along or agree to exams. I can only speak for my self. When i had that exams I was 17 and didnt know really how they do a pelvic exam. Doctors do not explane these exams to woman how they do them or even ask for permission. I remember thinking that they were just gona look at my hips bc thats what a “pelvic exam” sounds like. And that is another problem I have with this. I Also wonder if this termenaolgy is used to trick woman into thinking it is not a internal exam. IF A woman doesnt know that the doctor is going internal till she is naked in a open gown and a nurse brings in a table with insturments. Its as tho they want the woman naked and vonerable so they will feel presuerd to comply. I Know some woman already know what a pelvic exam is but alot of woman and young girls realy do not know what they are going along with and probly whould panic and refuse or leave. I think the word “pelvic exam” is a trick in its self and then not explaning exams or asking for concent.

    • It DOES sound like a skeletal thing. The hip bone is called the “pelvis,” so one would assume that’s what the focus is.

      Something I’ve noticed, at least in this country, is that there’s a heavy tendancy to try to redirect a problem & use the enemy’s momentum against them. It’s to the point where someone gets dependant on assistance from an assailant, or at least on the help of a benefactor.

      There’s so many tricks that get used (coercion, deception, disparaging remarks about being immature or crazy, etc…). Ambushes are in keeping with that. So is rushing someone around so there’s no time for thought or space for refusal. Comportment is another big one (“do this, then do this, then do this”). I guess that would have a pressuring effect.

      I have another question: Why would being naked add to this pressure? I’d think it would add to things in the opposite direction.

  3. The article above by the male doctor is very revealing. You may want to read another article – more factual and less emotional – about male gynecologists at It is entitled “Gentlemen Don’t Look Up Ladies’ Skirts.” The author quotes documents from the AMA and the British equivalent which say that male doctors who experience erotic feelings during a pelvic exam are “neither unusual or abnormal.” It is an amazing article. Well researched and well written.

    • Woman are not the only victims here as horrible as this is for most of them. Try and imagine how infuriating this is for the boyfriends and husbands. We are hard-wired with this deep-seated, protective instinct, and we are allowing another man to perform this horribly, intimate, sexual exam on the woman we Love. Makes me nauseous. And for what? a less than 99% lifetime risk, even lower if your a young to middle-aged woman?
      This has got to be the biggest medical sham ever conceived. That, along with the pap and pelvic having no sexual connotation for the male doctor. Really? Its just like them to think they are mentally superior.

      • “infuriating” does not equal what happens to women. You are not “allowing” this. It isn’t your prerogative to give permission for what happens to your girlfriend’s/wife’s body. She does.
        Yes, it’s nice that you feel protective, but please don’t skew yourself into the role of victim.

      • Modayear –

        What happens to women in these scenario’s is beyond disgusting. Ignoring what it does to a caring and loving partner is just as terrible. My wife has not endured this for decades now and it still infuriates me…the way they manipulated her (emotionally)and made me out to be the bad guy is one aspect, the other is knowing another man (many other men in fact) performed these exams on my wife destroys me…it eats at me…it hurts me. I paid another man (many other men)to enjoy sitting inches from my wife’s most intimate region, staring and enjoying as long as he desired then inserting his fingers and groping her, examining (groping) her breasts without gloves, when in many instances this procedure had just been performed by another and was completely unnecessary…while acting being very gentle so she could buy that he was a compassionate, caring man. How dare you minimize the effects that this has had on our relationship.

      • Sounds like ownership and patronisation to me. It’s not an issue for boyfriends / husbands they are not victims. You don’t own your partner. Nauseous? “Allowing another man”?? Spare me!

      • Meg –

        I am sorry if anything I said looks like I am patronizing/insulting/degrading women and/or my wife, Not my intent. My reasons for my position stem not from a lording over position…in fact it is doctors that lord over, patronize and humiliate patients (especially good looking female ones) to be able to do exams that either pad their wallets or fulfill their personal desires,

        My position is not about control, it is about standing next to her and defending her when she is vulnerable. We always go together to each others appointments because as the patient we do not always hear everything due to the stress and the fact that as a naked person being talked to by a dominating doctor presence we aren’t always “all there”. When my wife (the person I am closest to in this entire world) is the subject, it IS ALWAYS an issue for me…and likewise the other way around when I am the patient. I most likely have never met this white robed person, Their selling themselves as having my best long term interest at heart is possible, I can be certain my wife does have my best long term interest at heart. This is a two way street.

        My comments about “allowing” have to do with not questioning exams/procedures that are clearly not necessary and my comment about “disgusting” comes from years of experience as a patient and my wife’s advocate.

        Doctors want patients to just answer questions and to roll over and allow whatever they command, so they can operate completely unimpeded and remain 100% in control. Patients have finally grown a backbone and have finally started to call doctors out in their behaviors, taking control of their own lives and their health care because the patient is most likely always looking at their own long term best interests first.

    • “You may want to read another article – more factual and less emotional –”

      I was taken aback by this statement. Nothing about this post was “emotional.” How pejorative. Devaluing emotion is a peculiarity of white culture and many white Americans take it for granted; they are oblivious to this part of their culture and have the nerve to expect (impose) other cultures to modify their communication style accordingly in the name of sounding “scientific.” The notion that “logic” is separate from “emotion” is false and originates from Satanism through Masonry. Masonry birthed this idea through the “Age of Enlightenment” or the “Age of Reason.” This ignorance has been ingrained in science, falsely so called, ever since.

      Contrary to these lies, without emotion we CANNOT reason. Read “Emotional Intelligence” by Daniel Goleman to understand how emotion is vital to reasoning ability, prioritizing, and functioning. This explains why science geeks are so very irrational, cold, callous and *unreasonable.* And why people who lack this skill, lack common sense.

      And as much as Satanism (within science) pretends to “appeal to reason” using “pure” logic, it uses emotional arguments when convenient; such as in the homosexual movement.

  4. I would imagine there are doctors of both genders who may be personally uncomfortable examining unattractive or obese patients. We are a shallow biased society and there are no guarantees that personal maturity comes with a medical degree. The tragedy is that someone could end up dying or with cancer because of it. If someone wants to play fantasy doctor they can do it on their own time. If someone is fat – get over it. They still need competent medical care and are not as modest as presumed.

    • Again implying that the result of sexism would be someone would get cancer because doctors don’t “care” about them- FUCK NO! The result of sexism is present, right here, ie you implying a woman needs a doctor to take fucking care of them.

      • I wonder something: If you got a bunch of hot women together to say things in support of having bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness, the different risks & inaccuracies of all kinds of procedures, and a general conflict of interest that is pervasive in the medical profession (in some countries, at least) would that be useful? I know it should be about the issues, but I think that would give it a boost.

        Throw in that “female” isn’t a type of disorder & that it’s not being stupid to think compositionally (after all, a situation is what it consists of & reality DOES apply to medical personnel) and you’re all set. At least in terms of getting a shot across- since doctors & such will probably fight back against being fought back against.

        P.S.- I also think well of cursing & general ferocity of response as a tool to counter attempts to impose these types of things. Actually, that’s a frequent trick in fights. Kind of a psych-up AND a solidifier.

        Someone might say something like “There’s no call for that” or something to the effect of that being a “verbal assault,” but one can very easily make the counter that someone was trying to “impose detriment” & you used “verbal counter-offensives” in an effort to protect yourself from this detriment.

    • Excellent response! Thank you! I have felt the same way, having worked in the ER and hearing the doctors, PAs, & RNs say about people that aren’t to their standards. It is shameful.

  5. Wish I hadn’t read this but knowledge is power! I dropped my male gyn over a decade ago after realizing several things were not quite right. This article only reinforces my decision.

    • Holy Shit! This is them torturing women and none of these people did anything to physically stop any of this! I swear to Christ & I don’t know how this is going to come off, but I wanted to do the exact same things to these people that they did to the pregnant women the whole time I was reading that & kill them afterward. They shouldn’t be around to cause further harm & I’m sure their replacements would act very differently.

      It occurs to me that an accusation is just an invitation for someone to let their “shields” down or to implode in on themselves. An ATTACK, however- that would be useful. It would put some “teeth in the night,” so-to-speak. The method is always attack, whether or not the goal is defence.

      This culture is self-replicating, so there’s no reason to believe that they’ll initiate a change of behavior. This is what they are when they are left to their own devices, so if they were different I figure they’d act different. This isn’t a model of how people in general are if they’re free, this is just how they are. I truly do believe that these people are either possessed or just innately evil!

      One big question for all of you: If this is how they are toward the mother, what kind of safe environment does someone think is there for the baby? What affects her generally affects her baby, anyway- but I’d figure if this is a pretty severe warning sign of untrustability. Whether through antagonism or incompetance, they cause problems. These problems don’t magically go away because you get billed for them. As far as making decisions & she can make whatever decisions she wants, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll actually happen. Something might get directly imposed on her, no manipulation or subtlety at all.

    • The article is called “………fifty years later” . Why? Most od the stories from nurses and doulas are from around 2009 not decades ago. Birth as a rape experience. Not good.

      Women are told that they can choose their birth experience now. Only I have heard it is very difficult to book with a midwife. Only first come as soon as positive home pregnancy test if you do not call right away likely they are booked up. Any, just any complication and they are sent to an obstetrician. The choice is supposed to have some family physician delivering but most do not do that because of the time commitment and the insurance costs. So the “choice” that health Ontario boasts about is bogus.

      I have heard enough about women being induced just to be a convenience, no medical reason. I believe this is damaging toa child’s soul because they pick what day they should be born.

      • I agree with whoever said that it has “soul-damaging”to a little persons soul being induced before their time. Let nature do its thing. And lets get rid of the troll. This is a woman’s forum, trolling doctors worried about woman finding out about their shame are not welcome here. Period. Go push a prostate exam; their fare more common than the cervical/ovarian ca that you push with your vagina exam! oops, pelvic exam, sorry, lets keep masqueing whats really happening here shall we. Pigs.

      • Schwerin: I know what the name of the site is, but sometimes there are male posters that are saying “Hey, they’re trying to back my girlfriend into all kinds of probing so she can get birth control pills- how do we get them without all this?” or just simply complaining about them trying to get dictatorial with his wife. Sometimes it would even be wives mentioning them trying to push their husbands into things! It is less common for this sort of thing to be directed against men, though.

      • There are more inductions now than ever before and it is soley to schedule the births. It is so wrong. What every happened to natural child birth? I had it… albeit mine both came way too early and they didn’t give mothers anything for pain back then. God forbid! My daughter has wanted to have her children born at home with a midwife but she cannot because she needs rhogam and the midwife cannot give it only a physician can. But she has given birth to 8 beautiful babies with one in the arms of Jesus. Home schooling 7 is keeping her busy!

  6. This article was entirely fabricated, no facts listed, all opinion based, and no clear identification of the author. From the sentence structure, word frequency, and repetition that are used. It’s a safe bet the writer was a women to begin with. I mean lest be honest, there is not a lot of reason to hide who you unless your full of crap. The medical profession isn’t known for back balling someone who questions it’s practices, ergo this is total bs.

    Chris W.

    • “It’s a safe bet the writer was a women to begin with.” .. Sue, I think we have a troll here, can you help?

      • Karen, I agree but the odd attack from random trolls provides opportunity to pull out the stops and post some of the facts. And medical-oriented trolls who post here enter a level playing field – unlike the medical environment where female patients are most often in a ‘one-down’ position. I agree with IMC that the article was scary, but also brilliant, well researched, and beautifully written. I follow a blogger who posts some great but disturbing articles about birth, like this one about a woman who was forced to have a cesarean:

        Karen, I should have added that I don’t think any women here need help from troll attacks. Other way around in fact, I usually feel a bit sorry for the poor troll who is unfortunate enough to land here! Although if it’s an attack on women, offensive or just plain creepy then it’s good to just delete. I don’t think the last comment from the suspected troll falls into that category but what do you think?

      • Sue, I hope I did not sound patronising. What I’ve meant, is just that petty sexism like the sentence I quoted from the poster does not bring the debate forward. Calling out someone on their gender like that should not be part of any civilised discussion.

      • Karen I certainly didn’t think you were being patronizing! As moderator I try to keep this a woman friendly site while still allowing for healthy debate, but every so often something not so woman friendly slips through! I’ll try to be more vigilant in future.

      • Wow. So what does that translate into? I mean in terms of results? I guess this is a problem that can make birth control LESS accessible.

      • Hi what does blackballed mean? Have you been taken off their list? I am so glad you stood your ground regarding the Pap smear. The more women do this the better. It needs to be a choice for those who want it. Not some carte blanch programme to rape every women on the planet. Stand firm because I suspect they will not let the subject drop.

    • Presuming to know the true sex of the author based on structure is ridiculous. My writing is almost always identified by programs as that of an European male. I happen to be an American female.
      I believe the testimony to be legitimate. Consider. Medical students select a specialty when they are still young. Why would a young adult male want to attend to female sex organs? They can’t all have a passion for ushering new life into the world or have mothers who died from cervical cancer. Some portion of them (bi or lesbian female doctors also) must have become ob/gyns for ignoble reasons.
      That said…
      My mom went to an ob/gyn as a virgin right before her wedding because she thought she had to. The doctor was miffed that she didn’t want a pelvic exan because she didn’t want him to break her hymen. The doctor told her she should “sit on a Coke bottle” so that she would enjoy her wedding night. Also, my husband’s grandmother was a nurse from the 1970s through the 1990s. She’s told me enough stories about arrogant doctors that I know better than to assume they are all decent people. I know I will never submit to a male doctor for intimate screenings. They are too suspicious.

      • I never understood the whole having a gyn exam before marriage. I know of somone else that did thst its rediculas but nothing about gynecology makes since to me all seems to be be made up and baded on ignorance about woman and there bodies.

  7. It happend to my family member back in the erly 60s. She was tied to a hospital bad so she could not get up and use the bath room. And the nurse held her legs shut so she could not push her baby out till the doctor got to the room. The head was already comming out and she was screeming in pain. When i told her what happen to her was wrong and i didnt understand why she didnt sue or press charges. She made it seem like woman trusted there doctorsd back then and alot of woman back thin were scared to question authority figuers or ones they thought were and she was and is very trusting twards doctors. she also said the doctor cut her open down there and she fainted from the pain because they didnt numb her and that ahole doctor didnt feel he needed to ask her permistion to do any thing. It made my blood boil. No wonder they didnt let husbands in when there wifes were birthing they whould probly attack the doctor for mistreatment.

    • Chris W.: Just out of curiosity, what do you consider hard evidence? Ultimately, all evidence is anecdotal. Also, medical communities mose certainly do black-ball people for various things, it’s just usually for something that happens or doesn’t happen in the office. It doesn’t have to be KNOWN for doing these things in order to actually do them.

      Kleigh: Why don’t they attack the doctor now? I’ve noticed a less confrontational male these days, at least in America. That “tend & befriend” pattern of response might not be 100% when it comes to women, but it really is the typical manner of response with men & women in America currently. I mentioned this before: how it’s recruitment as a method of recourse & that’s more or less it.

      I also don’t get why people say “in any other situation/setting/context this WOULD be sexual assault (or any other type of attack).” Instead of trying to point out that there’s frequently a contradiction between description & situation, they should just call it for what it is.

      There’s even a Chinese proverb that goes “Wisdom begins with calling things by their correct names.” I guess because I don’t know who said that it’s not true, though- eh, Chris W?

  8. There is a website called birth trauma, the stuff of nightmares.
    These accounts are sadly, fairly common and there is no doubt in my mind this sort of experience still awaits some laboring women, how many? I have no idea.
    I think for a long time these accounts were dismissed, “you’ve got a healthy baby, haven’t you?”…hardly the point when the mother ends up with PTSD, depression etc.
    This is the UK chapter, I think there is a branch in a few countries, including Canada.

    • Elizabeth I suspect those sorts of experiences sadly await many more women. It seems to be similar to the pap experience, where many women have no idea that their own experiences of being coerced into pap tests in dr’s offices are similar to many other women’s experiences. Many women probably think their own bad birthing experience is rare, at least until they do a web search and discover they are far from being alone. Here’s another disturbing article. It’s about a woman who dies following a cesarean: I wonder how many women die as a result of cesarean. It doesn’t make it clear in the article if the woman had wanted a cesarean or if it was pushed on her, but given she was terrified of needles it might have been the latter. It is interesting that the inquest had been told the woman had “died of acute cardiac failure with unknown cause”.

  9. Isn’t all this the type of shit heroes in the stories would kill? There was some kind of monster or evil king or some such & they’d be slain on sight, much to the delight of the people. Sometimes the general people killed the creature themselves! This really is the type of shit that people would be convinced that someone was demonically possessed for & maybe that wasn’t a miscalculation.

    I mean this literally, but even if someone isn’t actually possessed by a demon the effect is still maintained. If they’re just like that with no paranormal situations attached, what’s the difference?

    Another thing is that it’s particularly telling is to apply all this to CHILDBIRTH. I know I’ve mentioned there being a general antagonistism to life in allopathic medicine from the start, but I figure it bears repeating. Particularly with the American kind, since pretty much anything that comes down the pipes basically attacks you!

  10. I am a doctor this is crazy. One Drs perspective does not account for the majority. There are many pelvics performed for fear of being sued later (well no one did an exam so it’s his/her fault) or b/c you might have missed something (the swollen joint is due to gonorrhea that is spread via the blood). You see so many peoples penises and vaginas that it becomes normal to the point sexual desire can be affected with partners. One thing is true, I would rather do an exam on people who have hygiene. I have also diagnosed things I didn’t expect (retained objects causing blood infection for example). Most of us avoid pelvics b/c we know patients feel uncomfortable and it makes an exam much longer (there is no time to do an appropriate work up anymore and the pressure of time is huge). There are freaks, they exist everywhere, Use your instincts. Just believe me this perspective is not the norm.

    • Doctors doing these things on their own accord is not right. That is iatrogenic abuse, regardless of if the doctor feels okay with it or not. Fear of a baseless lawsuit is not an excuse for this kind of behavior. There IS a risk of being sued for something baselessly, it’s part of the territory. What is the idea? They they’re imposing penetration on someone in self-defense? The safety of the assailant, whether they use low-key methods or not, is irrelevant.

      They were not prompted & do not usually give full disclosure about risks, inaccuracies, or alternatives (including self-performing). This is fraud & since deception vitiates consent, an assault as well. There’s also usually no mention of incentive payments for this or for any follow-ups that could be precipitated by the “results.” No mention of it being illegal to withhold birth control for not getting probed, either.

      By-the-way: Are doctors NOT selected, trained, and certified? So the common trends of this community, both officially & unofficially, can be presumed to be related to that or to pre-existing alignment. They don’t seem to band together against someone that tends toward dictatorial behavior with someone else’s body. Seems that the staff just sides with whoever can fire them- or get them fired through channels.

    • What about being sued because you didn’t get full informed consent from the woman regarding the fact that, as new research has shown, the exam is basically useless and is not good for diagnosing uterine or ovarian cancer. Many women have been lied to and coerced into pelvic exams because of lies about the necessity of the exam and to obtain the birth control pill.
      If there is concern about STIs that can be done via blood work or urine.
      It’s not about you and how many people’s private parts you see in a day. It’s about the woman and her level of comfort and the right to refuse an exam without fear of reprisal.
      It’s interesting how the fear of being sued is always brought up with women’s health care but with other things such as refusing the taking of blood pressure or getting a flu shot Dr’s don’t worry about that. Yet refusal of either one of those things could be life threatening.
      As we on the board have said it’s not about women’s health care.

    • Seriously? You are trying to explain performing a pelvic (a degrading and humiliating exam) on a woman with a swollen joint because she might have gonorrhea? gee…are there other much less invasive tests for this if you REALLY think the swollen joint might be from gonorrhea…one wonders if part of this equation used by male docsa includes how good the subject looks…because of course it makes sense that sexy ladies are more likely…

      • I’m sorry but how many people in this forum have a medical degree? There is a reason that we study for so many years and rack up so much debt while studying medicine. Yes you can screen for gonorrhoea using urine samples but the diagnostic testing should be done on swabs taken during an examination. Yes gonorrhoea can cause a swollen joint, it’s called reactive arthritis, you probably should have checked that before shaming a medical professional who was trying to demonstrate that you cannot judge another doctor without knowing all the facts. Additionally a pelvic exam is the least invasive way to determine whether someone has complications associated with STIs such as pelvic inflammatory disease (a major cause of female factor infertility), and therefore is often a necessary test. As someone who is in the final stages of my medical degree I have been taught by probably 15 to 20 obstetricians and gynaecologists. During this time I have seen only one doctor do a pelvic exam which I believed unnecessary and I called him out on this. It is this ridiculous judgement of doctors and the assumption that we think we are ‘superior’ which breaks down the important bonds between patients and doctors. We do not think we are superior to you and 99% of doctors prefer to help you make an informed decision about your own health. This doctor shaming sentiment that I am seeing all too often on social media needs to stop. Don’t look for reasons to attack people who are trying to help you and if you feel uncomfortable with what you are being told then ask why or do your research before you lash out.

      • I almost fell out my chair laughing while reading your response. What a self-pitying case you are. The old “I’ve gone into debt and studied years so I can only be your hero and you just won’t let me!” And this. “Us doctors, don’t be mean to us, we’re never mean to anybody. We’re dress up in smocks and wear gloves because we’re love monsters!”
        What I quickly noticed about you is the familiar shift the subject away from bad medicine and try to confuse us by mixing one fact and a wheel barrow load of crap. So you say STD’s are best diagnosed by swabbing. You carefully didn’t mention that also comes with the word “internal” as internal exam. That comes with pap scrape (yeah, you’re reading correctly–scrape not smear). Long before the nice gentle swabbing. You liar! Typical doctor alright.
        Would you use dry steel wool to clean off your own scraped knee which is full of detritus? What, you wouldn’t? Oh, then why, I ask, would you use a wooden spatula to scrape the one cellular layer of protection we have against HPV away–if we in fact have HPV? That’s just driving the virus in deeper where we can’t fight if off. Right?! Yeah, you bet I’m right.
        Same applies to the colpo brush.
        You liar. STD’s are BEST diagnosed via urine. Yep. Wake up and educate yourself away from the thrills you give yourself between our legs. The Trovagene test is 93% accurate on both HPV and STD’s. Uses antibody pickup and PCR technology.
        And we collect our own samples, in our own bathrooms at home!!
        Aran’t you happy for us? For yourself? What? You’re NOT happy? What? Because you don’t get to do the full internal exam huh? Poor thing.
        But at least now you can really go out and save lives. Instead of pretending to save lives through the pap scrape.
        You say other cancers are discovered that way? No they aren’t. And you know this too.
        We all know that paps are scored by computer. A computer that’s programmed to recognize only one kind of cell. Even with oversampling and with having a human pathologist sample some of the samples etc etc, you cannot guarantee me anything better than 53%.
        Other cancers will have long metasticized before any symptoms will be discovered by your fingers inside my vagina.
        Yep…I see you smiling. You know you’ve been found out like all the rest.
        Don’t lie to me, or try to distract me by confusing the facts like doctors are known to do. Like you did while urinating and moaning about how tough your life is.
        YOU chose your career. You knew what you were getting into. School, career, accts receivable write-offs, etc. And in med school you learned how to lie. How simple it is to look serious and snow patients with BS-rich terms such as “rule-out,” and “suspicious,” etc.
        What’s more, doc, is the fact that you DON’T need to be squeezing my nipples anymore either. If they are leaking any fluids they aren’t supposed to be, I’ll know it long before you do. You call it “defensive medicine” and you have to do it or you might be sued. One day you might get castrated too if you keep it up…pun intended ha ha.
        Squeezing my nipples, then watching them when you finger bang (oops I meant internally examine me)…you seem to know my every sensitive area. My clitoris you must check that out. Then my g-spot, my anterior and posterior fornix. The latter done via rectal or the two finger salute being the rectovaginal which is known to give me the “full feeling.” You know it by my engorgement, by my lubricating (which you also cause involuntarily), and my arousal which I fight by deep breathing.
        You prefer my husband is outside the room. I prefer he watches over your shoulder. And asks you lots of questions. While you seem to like asking me about my sex life while you’re down there, you don’t like to discuss things my husband asks you… Hmmm. Wonder why?!
        Don’t come here begging, then whining, then acting all authoritive, and then admonish us. This place isn’t your home, I’m not your wife, nor is this your office and I’m certainly not on your table. You won’t be paid here either for bullying me or trying to do same to my husband. Outside your office you’re insecure, and scared. What would you do w/o reserved parking and free lunch?
        You’d have to work for a living.
        Your med school colleagues are ultra competitive. They out drink, out screw, out perform everybody else in their class or they panic that their doctor instructors will excoriate them. And then you come back into the real world thinking none of us qualifies to know what you know.
        Am I close?
        My husband’s best friend from high school back in the 1980’s is an anesthesiologist in AL. A very nice guy who’s now a sniveling liar. Lost his wife as 66% do in his field. Now he whines and complains while claiming nobody else has a right to do anything but serve him.
        Be different. Treat us with the respect you want. Treat us like women; the greatest gift God made for mankind. Don’t treat us like your med school cadavers. We deserve better.
        Who taught me these things? Who told me these things? Who wants me sexually as much now as he did 25+ yrs ago? My husband.
        Got sick and tired of being lied to. Hubby is no longer friends with the anesthesiologist. Seems the doctor prefers to keep secret the things done to our naked bodies. Dr didn’t like it when my husband woke up during a pre-op; then called the Dr long-distance wanting truthful answers.

      • Lets say I had a swollen leg or joints. I am not sexually active but the doctor ie most doctors whould not believe me and try to push me to still have a pelvic. Now i have a issue with this because at 17 I had pain in my side and was told ” im going to do a pelvic exam on you to cheeck for ovarian cysts. I was a virgin and it felt like the doctor was riping my insides out trying to get the speculum in. Sorry tmi. Well fast forward a few weeks latter my parents insurance sends a statement to are home stateing that I was screened for gonarea. We were all freaked out. My parents had very good insurance and I am asumming I was taken advantage of. Somthing strang tho i never saw any swabs or felt any swabs being taken. And i was never told he was gona cheek for an std. To this day I am Thertyone and never had another pelvic or pap and my cycles are regular never had a problem and i dont trust doctors sorry. I will not go to a gyn for them to seek out problems when i know my body. I just feel so many woman and girls are put in a degrading and painful situation because of what doctors are trained to do to Us.

      • Mad. Having a medical degree doesn’t give anyone the right to take away someone’s choice. I have a couple of ‘certificates’ I’ve got over the years for studying one thing or another and I suspect some of the other women here have as well. I would never force my knowledge on anyone and neither should you.

        The pelvic exam you witnessed was in fact a rape. You participated in another woman’s rape and you stood by and watched and did nothing. Disgusting.

        Do some research into the fact your Hypocratic Oath swears to ‘Apollo’ a descendent of one of the fallen Angels and not to God himself. It says it all about you and your kind.

      • Mad – Guess what? Luckily for us patients, despite the fact that doctors and their narcissistic ways think differently, we patients have common sense. We also have every right to turn down what ever procedures/exams/tests that doctors are selling.

        This comment of yours reveals so much – “Additionally a pelvic exam is the least invasive way…” This exam is about as invasive as it gets. No amount of spin alters the fact that this exam leaves women vulnerable, creates massive amounts of undue stress and in the end serves little purpose.

        What you do find is that this exam is used mostly on women that are listed by these same doctors as “attractive” in the doctors notes. If this person was not attractive the “necessity” of this particular exam drops considerably.

        I’ll give another example – The breast exam – after probing each breast the good doctor twists and squeezes the nipple, the explanation is to note if there is discharge. I submit that in the entire history of these exams I am certain not one woman suddenly discovered from this exam that she had nipple discharge. She could simply be asked, she would certainly note if they felt different, if there was discharge or discoloring in her bra…and even more likely she would have already have noticed the sensation of wetness at some point before the good doctor twisted and tweaked her nipples. This exam is and always has been about doctors doing what they can get away with…not about the best interest of the patient.

      • oh, looks like the “good” doctor is worried that his dirty
        little perk has its days numbered!
        Nope, they will vehemently resist forward thinking &
        research, keep the cost of medical care high and will
        opt out-of informed consent, self-testing education,
        blood/urine tests for STD’s, ultrasound etc. and
        continue to withhold birth control if the patient
        resists the stirrups/bi-manual, breast exams
        even though by doing so they will continue
        to break the law.
        Shame on you doctor simon…burst on here
        will ya, preach that you don’t even notice the
        attractive women in the stirrups. You have
        pushed your power trip’n bullshit in the wrong
        forum this time my friend. We know
        you enjoy the young and/or attractive women
        before your eyes. Give it up already will ya.
        The doctor in this study is the real man
        who has admitted what is really going on here
        in the minds of most male doctors. Heres a thought, defer
        the intimate exam to same sex providers? Its the
        wave of the future maybe its time to get on board.

      • Mad.. Why does everything in medicine come back to our vaginas? One of the final straws for me was being berated about smear testing in the middle of a review of migraine meds! Maybe rogue cervical cancer cells migrated to my head? Well I’m still alive anyway!!

      • Exactly ladies and before diving into our vaginas perhaps a few questions are you sexually active? No? Fine. Yes? Any discharge pain on sex/urinating? Any sores on vagina ect? Just a thought!

  11. Good catch, Eddie. Blood & urine tests work for STDs & they frequently con women into other tests, figuring that it’ll sound good because it’s a related theme.

    ADM- The supposed concern about being sued brings up an idea: Maybe it’s something they realize is wrong, so it instantly connects to the idea of lawsuits & court, and then they decide to flip it into a defense- that way someone will think “Oh, well if they’d get sued for NOT doing something, how am I going to bring up charges FOR doing these things?” Saying “No, don’t sue me!” or “You can’t sue for that” sounds a little too much like “never mind that man behind the curtain.” Trying to get behind whatever they’re worried about coming at them. Sometimes the simple shit is a subtle tactic because it’s unexpected.

    It would also sound like one would be arguing against a self-defense urge (usually not effective) & like they’re the “bad guy” for pushing that situation on these people. It also comes off like there’s some mysterious “bad-guy” somewhere in the shadows causing this to happen to them- maybe even like there’s some kind of common ground between them & the doctor (like they’re both victims in this situation & there’s some kind of bond between them).

    It also reminds me of how child molestors tell the kids that they’ll get in trouble if they tell anyone. I guess there’s a running theme or betrayed trust & molestation. Isn’t it suprising that if someone “plays doctor” on a child, they get into shit- but when someone imposes these same actions on someone & gets a paycheck for it, it’s (at least sometimes) seen as innocent?

    • It really is a defense mechanism to protect the program of the well woman’s exam. If they were so afraid of being sued than we wouldn’t have a choice about anything. We wouldn’t be able to decline any test or treatment. We have the right to informed refusal and people decline treatment for cancer and choose to die or they choose to not take a medication and Dr’s accept that but when the topic of testing for female specific cancers comes up the line of fear of being sued is said. Dr’s manage to chart refusal for other tests and treatments but if it was such a concern then have us sign a waiver. It’s a cover for not getting full informed consent which for someone reason never enters their head that they can be sued for that. It is to protect the programs and incentive payments.

    • The “we see so many” argument is hogwash as well. I happen to see a lot of air conditioning equipment, because that is what I do, I service this equipment. Each unit is separate and distinct…and it’s not even a living breathing entity.In fact after servicing many units that are in terrible condition I especially appreciate the nice new shiny equipment I run across. Something human in me tells me that seeing an especially attractive, nice smelling soft speaking and demure ladies genitals up close and personal for as long as I choose to would be very stimulating, it might make be be very gentle, very patient, very kind, very deliberate and quite thorough. Unless of course I somehow possessed some form of super human abilities. All through this procedure, knowing I would love to do it again, I’m certain I would act quite professional.

  12. Luanne, I have deleted all comments as requested. The way comments work on this site:
    If you are a first time commenter your comment will be kept for moderation until it is read and approved for posting. If you have provided an email when you comment, and if your comment is approved, then all further comments are automatically posted by WordPress. If an IP address is marked as spam by WordPress, or if the commenter makes an error in typing their email – then the comment will be held for moderation again. If there is no email address then the comment will always be held for moderation.
    It is not possible for the author of a comment to edit a comment after it has been posted, but if you want a comment edited you could let me know and I would be happy to edit it for you.

    • I appreciate the follow and active support. =) I wanted to get the alert out on this important post. My husband read it and I also shared it with a megablogger (OM, if you’re familiar). I’m glad to have connected. =)

  13. The thing in that photo looks like a Medieval torture instrument. Are such contraptions really used on sensitive parts of a person’s body, without anaesthetic? You need to do another article on the well-known research on private conversations doctors have about painful medical procedures, during which more than half of them have made utterances suggestive of sadism..

  14. I haven’t had a pap smear since the days I was trying to get pregnant (after two pregnancies). I had been misdiagnosed years ago and had scar tissue completely blocking my tubes and they were not even in the correct place. This was a woman doctor. She said before surgery 0% chance of pregnancy. I had surgery. After surgery 50% chance. Never conceived. Never went for another pap as my feet had been in enough stirrups, I also have never had a mammogram. I am now 50 and post menopausal ~ a wonderful gift for my 50th birthday! I will never go for either test. Ever.

    • I don’t blame you. I found this site because my doctor’s office (today) suggested via a form that I get a pap smear because I’m “past due” for one. How do you handle doctors or nurses shaking their head at you for not having these exams done?

      • I tell them, no holds barred, that I know where to find them if I want to have one of them done. Don’t call me, I’ll call you. Naturally, they call anyway or if I’m in for a blood draw off my port, they (the MA) will start to ask and I say, save your breath, the answer is no, and the RN says to the MA see, I told you she would say that! But we have to ask. 🙂

        When I get the phone calls from the hospital staff saying that I haven’t made my appointment for my mammogram, I say that’s because I’m not having one. No, you may not set up an appointment with me now or ever, thank you anyway. 🙂

        Its not that hard… you just have to be your own advocate. Remember, its your body and you can choose how its invaded or not. I prefer not to put my feet in stirrups any longer and now I’m overweight and have an indwelling foley so I highly doubt there will be any fantasizing going on there. And let’s not forget that there are women that are homosexuals in the business. So you need to go where you feel comfortable regardless of the gender of the physician.

        I have no family history of breast cancer or uterine cancer so why go through all the ubbubb about it? It I were concerned, I would seek a doctor for that. I’m not, so I don’t. I have plenty of other health issues to be concerned with that my “ta tas” as they put it.

        Hope that helps, Tracy Ann!

        Rhonda aka nanarhonda

  15. Oh my goodness!!! I can’t even believe what I just read!!! No wonder the few times I’ve had pap smears from 2 different male doctors I felt awkward and creepy afterward. One doctor was in his mid 70’s and semi retired but was standing in for another doctor that was on vacation, and another doctor was in his mid 40’s and just seemed like he was attracted to me before the exam started. The older doctor gave me a lecture after the exam about my sexual history that I had to fill out before the exam. He said I was too young to not be more sexually active!!! As if that was any of his business. His nurse apologized to me after the exam and told me to call and complain about him. The younger doctor, said I should come back in 6 months for another exam, but I never went back to him eek!!!! And, I don’t think I’m all that attractive or anything like that but it’s just really sickening to think that they want to see your privates again and again. WOW!!!! Thank goodness for female nurses having to be in the room.

    • Those nurses are usually there to back up the doctor. The STATED purpose is otherwise, but functionally they tend to paint whatever picture makes the doctor look good & add “from a woman” weight to things. A woman might be more likely to think another woman would have solidarity or whatever with her, but that can very easily not be the case.

      Something to keep in mind: Arousal can absolutely play a role in these things & that applies to people of the same sex as well as those of a different one. There’s no reason that a woman can’t be an aggressive lesbian or bisexual & some people just have a taste for compulsion. Some people have warped tastes (like someone getting turned on by lying or stealing or setting things on fire) & there’s other forms of gratification, anyway.

      Gratification’s only an accentuating factor, anyway. After all, a woman can run another woman over with her car- it’s still an attack, whether she gets any gratification out of it at all. Whether something HAPPENS or not is the determinating one.

      • Women need to stop thinking they are “safe” by having intimate exams done by another woman. That is bullshit. I was stalked by a lesbian radiologist who I was sent to several times for breast ultrasounds and a breast biopsy. I still remember how uncomfortable it made me feel when her eyeballs nearly fell out of her head when she saw my large breasts. She questioned me about a lot of personal things, and stupid me was too naive and just thought she was making small talk to pass the time or make me less nervous. A week after my biopsy, which she botched by the way, she showed up at the church I was attending (which she had asked me about because she saw I was wearing a religious necklace) and she tried to get a date with me. I went to a different radiology office for tests after that for several years till damn it she shows up working for this other office and gets to do my thyroid scan. Thank God it was just my thyroid and nothing more intimate. The disgusting part is she walks into the room and says real breathy “Hi, remember me?”. Is that not creepy? It had been maybe 5 years since the breast exams she had done. Why would I remember her? Well except for the fact she shows up at my church and tried to get a date with me. Months after that I go to another radiology office for another breast ultrasound because a nodule shows up in breast when I had a lung CT scan. Well a different girl does that breast ultrasound, she seems real feminine and would have thought she was straight. She kept quizzing me about where I work etc and I said I had just been laid off and was losing medical insurance soon. She claimed she felt so sorry for me and after the exam after being given only a washcloth to cover my breasts she insists I should give her a hug so I will feel better. What the heck?

        As if all that wasn’t enough more recently I had a heart test done and the nurse instead of just asking me to move my breast over she grabs hold of my nipple pinching it hard and flops my breast out of the way. Ok women medical personnel are not any safer or nicer than males, so don’t fool yourself into thinking nothing can happen if you are examined by a female.

  16. I am due to book a smear test so was really keen to read this. Very useful points and again, I have never had this done by a male doctor. I am lucky in that regard. I did have some test done in Lagos once by a male doc, there were two nurses in the exam room with him, this also was a bit over the top as just one nurse would have been just fine.

    I wonder if men have the same experience with female docs?

  17. Many years ago a friend recommended I read a book called, HOW DOCTORS MANIPULATE WOMEN, by a doctor named Mendelson, if I remember correctly. I am sure the title is correct, but I have not been able to find a copy of that book myself. Has anyone here heard of it?

    Some women want to believe they need these exams yearly, but they should think of how x-rays can also cause cancer. Consider whether anyone really should go that route.

    • Elizabeth, what a sweetie you are! Yes, that is the book that was recommended to me, but of course doctors in general are supposed to have such sterling reputations that laymen will not believe it if you tell them they don’t. I have a son-in-law who is an MD and a daughter and granddaughter who are RNs, so the medical profession is not unfamiliar to me. But I have also lived long enough to have grown skeptical of some practices. I know one army doctor OBGYN deliberately caused me to have a miscarriage when I went for a second trimester exam because, as *he* said, “There are enough brats in the world.” I am not a fighter, so I did not press charges. Eleven years later, I finally adopted a son and gave birth to a precious baby daughter within the same year. 😉

      Thanks again for searching this for me. I may learn more here than I would by reading the book, but I will be happy to have it anyway–just to pass on to others.

      • Wait, you were in the army & he decided to give you a miscarriage? Holy shit! I’m sure some guy in prison would have ridden him repeatedly for that! He just went “There are enough brats in the world” and gave you a miscarriage?

        I’ve got to ask: Does the army try to manage the pregnancy of the soldiers?

        I’ve heard that they force internal exams on women (I don’t know if there’s any wrestling or fighting if they refuse, but mandates ARE an outside orchestration). It’s kind of a question mark if there’s legal support or if it’s just one of those things that they try to enforce an impression on.

  18. I have recently become obsessed ans stressed about my gf having a pelvic from a male doc. Turns out a nurse just did a pap. (uk btw) but the intimacy of a.pelvic bothers me a lot and she just says its a doctor it means nothing. But no man but me should do those things to her. Its just wrong and she won’t be convinced otherwise. She is having her arm implant out soon as it runs out this year and going on the pill. I dont want some doc shoving his hand up there and i feel worried and ammoyed that these tests could be done. Ji

    • Dear Simon from 7/3/14. Get over your denial and accept the truth that so many women here are saying. A man who performs pelvics all day and cannot get aroused? Sure–if he has prostatitis from being overly aroused over and over again and doesn’t have the time to “relieve” all the back pressure. Basically he’s “clogged” and stops functioning b/c his prostate can’t hold any more. Gross and true. This is a man’s instinct. Get erect and spread seed when seeing a vagina.

      And what’s described about “gonorrhea spreading bacteria to joints…” is also true. In very advanced cases this can happen. And if so, then there’s gonna be so many symptoms any doctor would have to perform a full physical, sent many vials of blood to the lab, and eventually question whether the cause is the vagina.

      However, what in reality happens is this. A woman I know was “pelvic’ed” by one particular every time she was sick, so much that she stopped going to him for treatments. A doctor who wants to get a woman helpless onto the “rack” so he can feast his eyes and play/invade her as much as possible w/o getting sued or being accused of cheating will think, and do exactly as you say.

      He’ll claim any infection, from a tooth abscess to a common cold, could “possibly” be originating from a vaginal infection and it has “to be ruled out.” Or else no other treatment. Yes, we call it being bullied. A loud male in authority telling us it’s either his way or no way. And he gets his way. Then at the end, he makes the usual stupid statement of “well I really didn’t think but “WE” had to be sure…and it’s my duty as your doctor and you pay me for that…and now you can rest easy. But you need to come back in four months for your usual pap so we can continue with this and make sure it isn’t your vagina causing things…I possibly saved your life today…because we “ruled out your vagina,” once the labs come back confirming that you’ll be on the right antibiotic…but if you get a suspected yeast infection…come back so I can “make sure” b/c otherwise I’ll get in trouble…” As for me, it was my husband who put this misery to an end by years ago saying “NO” for me. Thanks to him and this site, I’m educated and speak for myself.

      The thrill goes away when hubby or boyfriend is present and watching the male or female doctor.

      Darren, talk to your gf. Make sure you are with her, and get her permission in writing that it’s ok for you to speak up during the exam. Have her say where she wants you to sit, whether it’s by her side holding her hand or behind the doctor so, per her saying so, you can learn and become more of her partner in healthcare. If the doctor is against this, or is bossy or make s the scene uncomfortable, or the nurse tries to herd you away, your gf MUST complain immediately or it will appear you are the cause of concern and your gf is ok with the clinic rules and her “quiet” non-participation is a hint she wants you gone. Staff picks up on things like this.

      You should be there. Ask questions, she is your partner and vice-versa. This will be either very bonding or a hint your relationship is going to end. If you can’t get past the doctor office w/o problems then kids, marriage, owning property together won’t happen. Make sure she also reads things here, and understands she is the boss, and you are more important than any doctor who is in fact working for her and should be taking her orders. If the doctor isn’t personally invested, then he/she should have no problem letting her decide where you should be and participating. Also make sure she knows how likely she can have a false positive between 20-30 and end up having her cervix amputated by a LEEP or LLETZ in UK. “Moo” is spot-on with what she says on this–go to and look at the pictures she posted last week.

      Also, it’s normal for us women to experience clitoral engorgement during these exams. We may not even know it’s happening. Or we can become wet. This is our body responding, as your own does during a prostate exam. Not at all fun. Doctors can take advantage of us as much as it can also happen to men. You can watch YouTube to see what else happens during these useless so-called exams. Hope and pray everything is ok.

      • I trried to talk to her about it when she was booked for her pap. She just said its a doctor its fine and doesnt mean any thing. But it does to me. The thought of a man peeforming a pelvic bother me. A lot. I have seen videos and its horrible. I tried to talk to her about it and dismissed my concerns as me being weird about it. What to do?

      • Darren, personally before marriage I went through what you’re talking about here. My husband to be researched things and asked questions. He asked me was to keep an open mind and talk things through so together we could make difficult decisions. I refused, mostly taking my mother’s or friend’s advice, even laughing a couple times. He described years how close he came to breaking up. He says this is my worst quality. Hate to admit, he was right and my taking him for granted meant I, and we, lost out on things that would have been of great benefit. These matters comprise our worst arguments. When I’ve wanted equal influence over him, there’s been occasion when I didn’t get it and this is why.

        This is a life lesson. How much do you love each other? The respect and attention given you now will not increase come marriage. Your relationship life rules are being drawn up with each date, and every phone call. Does she ever take you out? Or does she expect to do her own thing while you clean up after her? Matters like this will either break a marriage or temper it stronger than steel. What you experience now will also apply come children, and if you’re feeling excluded and rejected now, those times are why so many couples divorce. Men are regarded as important until pregnancy, then unfortunately and wrongly many women, especially pregnancy nurses, regard husbands as “look what you did, and you want sex?” If you are treated as unimportant and unneeded now, just wait!

        Two reasons we made it through are God, and that we do everything together, including doctor visits. We’ve seen each other naked and held each other’s hands through many things. Doctors have their education and nurses. The best advocate is your spouse or someone having that level of trust. That person can research medical topics, and is there to stick up for you, ask questions, make sure the right things are documented, and demand appropriate pain care & Rx’s. Just entering the room the patient is outnumbered and can’t do all these things on their own.

        This girl lacks maturity compared to you. No amount of looks compensates for two brains evaluating and agreeing on a plan, including sex. You are alone here, and will continue to be “on the outside looking in” during this relationship. All you can do is warn her, step back and let her learn on her own. When things you say begin coming true, perhaps she will realize her errors, like I did, and come around. If not, thank God you got away!! There is a girl out there with intelligence matching your own, who won’t bore you, with looks and smells that will mesmerize you the rest of your life. That girl will also pay closer attention to her hygiene. You’ll compliment each other, and the world will move out of your way. Thank God, pray, ask Him!!! [we’re praying for you] Trust me. If only we had life’s experience guiding us as we live our lives. Not only do you marry the girl, but you marry her family too. Let me know what happens. And, whether it’s a man or a woman performing the pelvic (vaginal as truthfully said here), this is an unnecessary exam that should be outright banned. Anybody can abuse anybody at anytime. This exam is an enabler.

  19. Dr Simon. Come clean. Tell us exactly how many times you’ve treated advanced gonorrhea that has spread to a joint. Versus your thought that it might be interesting to perform a pelvic on a woman on less than definitive symptoms. Have you ever enjoyed, no let me say experienced an erection or even ejaculated during an exam? Ever not be able to control smiling during an exam? Are you more likely to perform a pelvic on a young attractive women than an older women with six kids who has a positive history of vaginal problems? What about these same questions and rectal exams? Have you ever needed to masturbate during your work day?

    My husband’s best friend went through med school, and first thing he commented when visiting us was the hot shaved college babe who made $3,500 for “volunteering” and how it shocked him and the six other med students. I’ll never forget the look on his face. Or how many women go to ER’s and end up having pelvics for strange reasons. Or how all you f*** head doctors lie and say you “do what we can to protect dignity during surgery” when in fact we’re stark naked at least 15 minutes on either end of surgery, prep and clean up. Or how doctors in surgery will go and check out breast enhancements when a women is under. And I know female nurses and female doctors are no better because my family has them…and when drunk they talk in detail… None of you have an answer when confronted factually about the pap scrape being unnecessary as we’re shedding dermal cells 24/7 into our mucus. And that you can’t feel anything during a bimanual.

    You lying SOB!! Try that for a perspective… Hope one day you get caught on your lies.

  20. This is disturbing – but I am not in any way surprised. I have always suspected it. I’m not having a go at all men because I believe the vast majority are decent citizens just like everyone else and everyone here, regardless of gender, support the right of all patients to informed choice and the right to choose same gender care. But like I have heard another male say, “decent men don’t become gynecologists” and I agree.

    There is something inherently sexual about the procedure when conducted by a man, especially when he’s pressurising a woman into it. The whole set-up is disturbing – pointless pelvic exams, exam tables, stirrups – I think it is all by design, rather than accident.

    It’s not just the fact that he has access and direct vision of the patient’s body that is the problem.

    It is also the submissive, vulnerable and degrading position she is required to place herself into, which is inherently disturbing.

    I think it’s very distasteful and dehumanising and has the potential to take compassion out of this aspect of the health profession if there’s any prospect the doctor harbours some sexual feelings about the whole process or has disrespect towards the patient.

    I think it is a relic from the times when women had no place in society (other than the home) and men dominated all professions – including the health profession and the care of women – because women couldn’t be expected to understand anything about healthcare (including their own) because male doctors knew better.

    Gynecology should be handed back to women, with male doctors in the minority in my opinion. Likewise, I wouldn’t blame a man for choosing a same sex doctor either!

  21. Ask any-male on the street if they’d like to perform a breast exam on that attractive women across the street, say, and 100% of the time the answer would be a resounding “YES”. Thats the way “men” are, and women will never understand it b/c they are not, and never will be, a man. The simple truth is that men are programmed differently than women. Seeing it everyday is not a turn off for the male doctor – as they would have you believe – rather an addiction and a power trip for them. I really don’t understand what the debate is all about (here) when respected medical organizations such the AOG admit this to be true – THEMSELVES! I think a lot of women (and men) have been brainwashed that it will take another 1/4 century to see real change in the minds of the majority.
    This “debate” (if you can call it as such) can easily be settled if a 100 male doctors we’re to submit to a polygraph! The standard control questions could be asked such as name, title, etc. And then onto meat-of-it with a question like ” have you ever received an erection while performing an intimate exam on a female patient”?. And, “have you ever masturbated to the thoughts of intimate exam performed on an attractive patient?”.
    But realistically that will never happen b/c you will never find 100 doctors willing to commit career suicide with their answers. There goes the mantra “just another exam, nothing sexual about it”. Please, it’s insulting.
    And lets not just point to the gynos..GP’s were always the ones (in my experience with x-girlfriends) that we’re always pushing to do the tests themselves. Really pushing. Best to have a female-female doctor-patient relationships.

    • Anon: Got to argue two things with you. First, I wouldn’t say ALL men would be answering that way. I know I wouldn’t. I’d answer the question “Would you like to grab that hot chick’s rack?” or something like that in the affirmative- but I’m not into “extrapersonal activity.” I don’t like the idea of some woman’s father tossing her into my bedroom, either.

      That said there IS physiological overlap for sure & I think that there are numerous angles for it to be a thrill for them.

      The second thing is that a polygraph is not nearly as accurate as you might believe. Someone can base CONCLUSIONS on the results, but that doesn’t mean those conclusions are true. It’s like the difference between “convicted” & “guilty.” Same goes with plenty of medical tests.

      Actually, a lot of scientific stuff is somewhat “declaration-based.” They DEEM something a particular way & can have all kinds of technicalities that disqualify this or that- even though something is actually a particular way, it’s not designated that way. Affirming something to be a certain way or not affirming it to be a certain way can be exactly what “proven” & “disproven” can amount to. Since academics are not generally quick to question the pedastal they’re put on & since whether something exists or not does not hinge on their certification, I’d say it’s an unreliable detection method. Sure, it CAN go well- but that doesn’t mean that it should be blindly trusted.

      With science, there’s a presumtion of accuracy that rivals & sometimes matches blind religious belief. Functionally, it’s become something of a religion.

  22. This article is making a mountain out of a mole hill. while there are pervs in every profession, medicine being no exception, it’s wrong to assume that all doctors are conniving people interested in doing pelvic exams. Most doctors I talk to, hate doing a pelvic exam on a female. it’s very time consuming, uncomfortable for the patient and many doctors (including men), and quite honestly disgusting. As a patient, you have every right to say no and that’s okay. The vast majority of doctors won’t care as many have better things to do than to argue with patients about a test that is potentially needed. It’s your body, do what you wish with it but don’t lump all doctors into one basket (specially male doctors) because of a personal negative experience or from word of mouth.

    • Ironically enough, it is this…”lumping” of people…that doctors specialize in. If you are a female, if you are sexually active, if you are…and on and on and on…

      By the way, the false belief here is that male doctors are somehow super human and can control natural responses. The point here is not about slamming male OB/Gyn’s it is about the wise choice to avoid males in this field all together. I can assure you that contrary to what you believe, a male sitting in a chair, between a ladies legs is a sexually exciting activity for the male of the species, in fact after a male doctor has performed many of these procedures on women that a doctor does not consider attractive, the attractive patient becomes much more attractive to the male.

      • Just which women a man finds attractive is a question too. Some pervs like the very young, others the fat ones or the thin ones. Some just find the ones to be their victims to abuse are the ones the most vulnerable. Often abuse is not about fulfilling a fantasy with someone they find attractive, it is about having power over someone, getting pleasure from inflicting pain. Look up sexual sadist, power rapist. It goes beyond the norm.

        Why is it some doctors will use lidocaine injections when they do a cervical biopsy while others will just lie and tell a woman that the procedure will just be uncomfortable?

      • Even worse than what you describe, and I’ve experienced it, is the dipshit doctor saying to “take a couple Advil 15 minutes before in case there’s some minor,” or “most women report feeling no pain at all.” Indeed, they know that (as I’ve said) the inner 2/3 of the vagina have few nerves. However the innermost 1/3 and the cervix are highly innervated with both sympathetic and parasympathetic nerves.

        Yet some will still say we shouldn’t feel anything b/c there’s no nerves there. If we do, it’s all in our heads. As we hold our stomachs crying. I’d sell out a 85,000 seat stadium with people wanting to watch that doctor undergo circumcism and vasectomy w/o lidocaine. And I’d lead the cheers, “Cut something else off! Biopsy! Cut! Cut1 Now coagulate!” “Let him have Advil!”

      • Does anyone else on here find this “alex” guy on here (who keeps posting) Completely Annoying?? 🙂 My lordly, his arguments are a garbled mess of incomplete sentences, misspelled words, dumbed-up morphology & out-of-the park strange, makes-no-sense at ‘all statements’!? Please bud, just stop posting – Your polluting this argument with your comments – your. not. helping!! I wish there were a special block button just for you. We can call it the “block alex” button!!
        I find this forum entertaining and informative, been following for sometime, but lately I have been debating whether to block this site (from my email) just to rid myself from him. 🙂 Please man, just stop posting. Your killing it.

      • Really, “Anon”? Doesn’t seem a word of what you said is true (my spelling’s usually pretty good & I don’t even know what you’re talking about with “dumbed-up morphology”). Then again, it also seems to me like you’re pissy because I disputed things with you in an earlier post.

        I don’t figure your argument is really what you say it is, but why not tell me what is so “out-of-the-park strange” about what I’ve said? What makes no sense? The shit you don’t like? And you find this forum “entertaining?” What part, specifically? I wouldn’t think a site on medical malpractice, particularly the types frequently afforded to women & girls, would be entertaining to someone that isn’t totally screwed-up.

        You wish there was a special “Block Alex” button, huh? Awww. Well, wish in one hand, shit in the other chief!

    • The thing is that someone isn’t going to say things like that to you (or imply it) unless they’re pretty sure of you. How did those conversations come up, anyway?

    • Mike I wish I could agree with your statement :Most doctors won’t care as they have better things to do than argue about a test that is potentially not needed: but unfortunately it’s just not true for 2 reasons

      1 ask any woman if a doctor has ever “offered” her a PE she said no and he just shrugged and said OK- trust me bud it doesn’t happen. Soooo many women go to a doctor for something absolutely unrelated to their ladyparts and it turns into a discussion/argument about having a PAP/pelvic. I have personally dealt with it and ended up refusing care from the ER that I really needed because the Dr wouldn’t lay off when I refused a pelvic exam ( completely un necessary btw) and said he couldn’t treat me if I didn’t comply. DOCTORS DO NOT LIKE TO BE TOLD NO especially when it comes from a woman. They seem to think less of women-that we aren’t capable of deciding what’s best for us and they have to tell us…Also I do think it is kind of a powertrip even if it’s not a sexual one. They like being right, they like being in charge. When we say no they don’t listen!!

      2- Have you ever tried to tell a doctor a pelvic/PAP is not needed?? They fight it tooth and nail! No matter what evidence a woman has at her disposal, her personal history, the ton of research that has proven they’re pretty much useless, all the negative outcomes etc etc they insist that it MUST be done to keep us healthy and don’t really give us any choice in the matter. Ask any woman if a doctor will prescribe her BC w/o insisting on a PE/PAP. Ask any woman who’s ever had appendicitis or a bladder infection and KNEW it was that but the dr insisted and put her thru it anyway. Doctors refuse to admit a PE is “potentially not needed” for pretty much any complaint a woman has…including headaches!!

      So once again I wish it was true but put yourself in the shoes of the 30 year old w appendicitis or the woman in labor subjected to a VE every 1/2 hour or the 18 year old who just wants BC then tell me if you still stand by that.

      • Yes, Emily, speaking generally, I’m sure some men have no idea just how much pressure we face when it comes to “elective” cancer screening, and that coercion still happens to many women.
        So often NO does not mean NO in women’s cancer screening, it often just sets us up for an argument, and even insults. Some women are even surprised to hear this, but they’re often the ones who comply without question, the medical profession and these programs love these women, nice and compliant.
        If they walked a mile in our shoes, they might also, be angry and shocked at the complete lack of respect for our bodily autonomy and legal rights. (and for women generally)
        Many women report doctors talking over them when they decline to test, or being aggressive/intimidating, impatient, rude or argumentative.

        I also, don’t scoff or belittle people for their choices. If women (or men) prefer to see female doctors and other medical professionals, that’s their choice, WE know how we feel, what we prefer and what we’ve experienced over a lifetime, so I couldn’t care less what others may think of my/our choices.
        For a long time we were ridiculed if we expressed a preference for a female doctor…for some it comes down to feeling safer with a female doctor, for others it’s comfort.

        I’d choose a female assistant for a bra fitting, a female massage therapist, and I’d choose a highly recommended female gyn. (if I ever need to see one) My choice, it would surprise me if anyone felt they had the right to comment about my preferences, they should see the doctor of their choice and respect the choices made by other people.

        Of course, I’d also, support a man with a preference for a certain doctor. Many years ago a local women’s group arranged for a man to have an all female surgical team to do rectal surgery (in a closed theatre) he’d been abused by a priest from an early age. This poor man had deferred surgery for many years because he refused to see male doctors and no one could reassure him that men would not be in the theatre, even if he chose a female surgeon.
        Now some might scoff at him and give him all the usual lines and let him suffer for the rest of his life…not good enough, not by miles. I’m pleased he was helped and is now hopefully, more comfortable, physically anyway, I imagine the mental scars will last a lifetime.
        Instead of defending doctors, we should focus on the patient…instead of continuing to tell others HOW they should feel or ridiculing them for their choices. I couldn’t care less if a male doctor does 50 pelvic exams a day, that’s completely irrelevant, it’s how WE feel that matters, or that should be the case. It’s only by making clear our preferences and standing firm that the medical profession will get the message…this is about us, not them.

    • Mike, your post makes no sense at all. Gynaecology was invented by male doctors, and it is still a male preserve. Why would a male want to go into a speciality where something *disgusting* is required practice? Are these guys all perverts then?
      And do you honestly think that a doctor who actually gets a sexual thrill from performing these exams would openly admit such a thing? Are you really that naive?
      And I would bet that a considerable number of healthcare professionals get a thrill from the power the exert over their patients.

      Second, there’s no such thing as a test that is *potentially* needed. A test is either warranted, or it isn’t. If a patient presents with symptoms and there are tests you can perform which might help diagnose the problem, then the tests are needed. If a patient comes to you suffering with migraines and the GP suggests a pap test/prostate exam then that test is NOT needed.
      Screening is the search for potential markers of potential disease in people with no symptoms. A screening test is never *needed*.

      Every time I’ve gone to a GP a considerable portion of the consult time is devoted to persuading me to have a smear test, regardless of the reason for my visit. Doubtless as I get older I will be put under pressure for numerous other irrelevant tests. This obsession with routine health checks and *preventative* measures is the reason the average GP doesn’t have the time to deal with the problem the patient came to see them about!
      Oh, sure, I can refuse an intimate procedure… but if the doctor won’t take ‘No’ for an answer? What if I’m then subjected to bullying or threats for refusing to follow doctor’s orders? Oh, believe me, it happens, it always has. If declining a pap/pelvic means I forfeit my right to medical care, that kind of makes a mockery of the ‘right’ to refuse, does it not?

      Every time a medical professional posts on this board they try to convince us how *caring* they all are, that the rotten apples in the barrel are few… yet you only succeed in proving how little you truly care about your patients feelings. So pelvic exams are uncomfortable for the doctors, are they? Oh dear, my heart bleeds! Maybe you should stop doing them then, since they’re as useful as a fart in a spacesuit anyway.
      Is your name short for Michaela? Or perhaps you used to be a woman? If neither, how the hell would you, or any male, know what it feels like to have an instrument forcing your vagina open and a stranger blindly rummaging around inside you? Where the hell do male doctors get off saying a pelvic exam is merely *uncomfortable* for the patient?

      Talk about ‘them’ and ‘us’.

  23. Another thought:
    Papscreen are masters at ignoring/dismissing our feelings and focusing on the doctor/nurse.
    “It may be a little uncomfortable and embarrassing, but remember for the doctor/nurse this is their job, they do lots of pap tests, it’s not embarrassing for them etc.” So, even if that’s true, how does that address the woman’s feelings? It’s about her, not them!

    Of course, their response completely misses the point, if a woman feels embarrassed, it’s about her and how she feels, yet they immediately address these feelings by talking about the doctor/nurse’s feelings. They know this test is unacceptable to some women, some find it intolerable, painful etc.
    yet trivializing and dismissing our feelings/experiences has always been the approach, and moving the discussion onto the smear taker and their feelings is an old strategy.
    It’s an attempt to deny the feelings of an individual woman, to turn us into a compliant herd.

    They knew at the outset this test was unacceptable to some/many women so were prepared to plot to find way to capture women. One of the principles for population screening is the test must be acceptable to the target population. Most women were not having pap tests, so they ramped up the unethical and illegal practices (I believe coercion negates consent) to reach their target, including making undisclosed target payments to GPs, using misinformation, scare campaigns etc.

    The way women have been treated is disgraceful, it should be subject of an enquiry to see why all of this was acceptable to the medical profession; it says to me women are still viewed very differently to men. We’re having an enquiry here after a female surgeon alleged rampant bullying and sexual harassment of female surgical residents/junior surgeons. It was initially denied by the professional association, but after more women came forward (and some men) they’ve set up a Panel to look at the issue. (it will also, look at the reasons why some female trainees have changed to another specialities or dropped out of medicine altogether, and what happened to those who complained in the past etc.)
    I wonder if it’s these DEEPLY entrenched attitudes that see unethical and illegal measures as just fine if they’re directed at women. It might also, explain why some female doctors also, behave this way, perhaps, exposed to these attitudes at Medical School or during their training, perhaps, some felt they had to accept these attitudes to get ahead, to join the Club.
    I believe we often can’t SEE something unacceptable that has always been the case, until it’s pointed out to us in a very dramatic and public way. Also, some may feel it’s too difficult to change attitudes/the system, or, why should they be a whistleblower and suffer the consequences?
    So these attitudes remain and unethical/illegal practices continue….
    I’ve always felt that women should stand as individuals, and demand to be treated that way. How dare they view me as a member of a herd…but as an informed woman, they do so at their peril.

  24. Hi Friends. These are excellent posts. As you know I have only just found this incredible site. Over the past few days I have been very upset. My emotions have gone from anger to tears at what has happened to me at the hands of so called medical care!!!. Yesterday i contacted a no win no fee solicitors and spoke to them of my experiences. While they listened to me and were very sympathetic they said they were unwilling to take on the medical establishment over this issue. But they actually said to me that a number of older women were waking up to what is going on and they have been contacted a number of times concerning forced pap smears They referred me to the British Medical Board and their complaints procedure for unethical treatment by doctors. i will let you know how I get on.

    • Why wouldn’t they “take them on?” I get taht they’d argue back, but isn’t that what lawyers do? I mean they’d basically go there & say what happened- what’s the problem? Are they worried that the lawyers with argue that the sky is green?

      What I’m saying is that they can’t very well say that what happens isn’t what occurs. Maybe people would need to waive some retaliation in order to change things. I don’t mean this in a disregardive way, but why pass up things going better for people in the future for payback you’re not going to get awarded? It’s best to have both, but I’d figure a lot of this wouldn’t have happened in the first place if they were aligned against stuff like that. I just don’t figure they can make a bold-faced show of support without a “this will cause everyone problems” type of line- like saying it’ll swamp the legal system or make the medical community go bankrupt or something. They wouldn’t really have that to hide behind (even though I believe it’s not really true to begin with). That whole “saving the system because it helps so many people” concept really doesn’t hold water when they’re maintaining the issues of that system that detriment the people. If nothing else, it would make them look good to fix their mistakes. Plus, those issues would be cleared-out & it would make this system run more effectively.

      • Alex
        I’ve been amazed to see the compliance from not only doctors and the AMA, (and other medical groups) but the media, politicians, women’s advocacy and health groups, I’ve written to all of these groups over the years, but no one was interested, no one would touch it. It says to me this program is all powerful, and no one has clean hands here, the AMA have protected and assisted the program, they were happy for GPs to accept undisclosed target payments and they continue to give women bad medical advice, (basic research shows 2 yearly screening from age 18 to 70 is BAD medical advice)

        Women’s groups were vocal and active in getting this program in place, so they continue to scold women who don’t comply, astonishing when you think they’d be up in arms if this happened in any other area. The media is afraid, they know most women are in the dark, many are brainwashed, lots think they were “saved” so it’s all too hard, it stays out of bounds. I’ve written to investigative and health journalists, no interest. Julie Medew is a great health journalist, when I wrote to her about our cervical screening program, she responded that she thought they’d be changing the program soon and might have another look at it, but nothing has appeared in the papers.

        Alex, I’m old enough to look back over more than 3 decades and can tell you I can only recall one hard hitting article on cervical screening, it appeared in Spectrum, part of the Sydney Morning Herald. It caused a STORM of protest from every angle, from politicians, the programs, women’s groups, survivor groups etc. It was even raised in Parliament by a female politician, a middle aged woman who was angry and concerned this article might put women off screening and some would lose their lives. This woman admitted to having a pap test on her birthday every single year, quite absurd when she was VERY likely to be HPV-….again, basic research shows annual screening is VERY serious over-screening, not a good idea.
        It made me feel quite depressed, I could see what we were up against, the evidence was never addressed, just outrage, almost fever pitch. How could we ever move forward when we couldn’t even discuss the topic rationally?
        I occasionally see a carefully worded article locked away in a medical journal, but there has been no critical and public discussion or hard hitting articles since, nothing.
        Dr. Gerard Wain made a couple of critical comments when he left the screening authority, but he didn’t actually “take on” the program.

        We don’t have a brave Dr McCartney, no Professor Mike Baum…everyone seems to be on board and if anything is said, people are careful to cover themselves, “it might be safe to move to 3 yearly testing, we’ll have to do more research”…”the program has been a huge success, but we could probably now look at less testing”….etc.

        So the few gems I found online, from Angela Raffle and a few other UK sources were precious things to me, and gave me hope. The Raffle et al. study did not make our papers here. Just recently Peter Gotzsche from the NCI was here, he ended up talking about breast screening, but boy, were his lectures on that topic kept quiet. I went to his talk on Big Pharma, but would have loved to attend the other talks. It appears they were aimed at medical students and medical research people, I assume that was to appease BreastScreen. I was disappointed with the media coverage as well, he was described in one major paper as a “Danish professor” with some “controversial views” on breast screening, hardly, his views, the NCI report, is now largely accepted in medical circles and has been the subject of fierce discussion in some countries for many years.
        The response here: to run the Breast Screen ads again at prime time. “It’s free, takes 10 minutes and it’s with a woman, so please, have a breast screen every 2 years, early detection might save your life” etc.
        Ummm, what about over-diagnosis, informed consent, false positives and the fact the risks of screening exceed any benefit.

    • Linda I hope things go well for you….sry to hear you won’t be getting any legal help but you know I think of women like you/Liz/Sue as heroes because your experiences and knowledge are what will save girls in their 20s like me from suffering the same fate. If not for everyone here I very well may have been violated by our medical system several times over by now and never known any of the real info- we all know I will never get it from any medical personnel. Thanks to this site I am now a well informed woman who knows the truth-good and bad- about PAPs/PEs and no fear of being manipulated.

  25. Hello Emily. i am going to do everything in my power to help young women like yourselves. The solicitors said that if I ever got cervical cancer in the future the NHS could sue them back It was such a grey legal area as no one can prove that I didn’t consent. The solicitors said that unless they held me down and shoved this thing up me it would be very hard to prove.

    Alex. This is the first time I have realised you are a man. It is good to have a male like you on board and sympathetic to our suffering you are so kind. i have been looking over your past comments and i can see you are very rightly angry about our situation, Thank you friend.

    Elizabeth. i can see that you have tried to go against this system as well. i an see that it will be very hard. i was told by my husband who had obviously been discussing it with his mum that his two sisters are really glad to get smears as they think its such a good idea. and didn’t know what i was making all the fuss about suddenly!!!!! It is going to be a hard slog making women aware of what is going on. A simple blood test now exists and women can ask for a Delphi self screening kit. There is absolutely no need for painful humiliating procedures at all.

    • So glad more and more women are speaking up and challenging the “old norms” .

      I’ve written a letter to the director of OB/Gyn at a well known hospital. I don’t think she even reeived it. Never a response but I will share with you all and feel free to use it or information from it if you find it helpful:

      Thank you for taking the time to read my email. I have been a patient in the … since my diagnosis with Lupus several years ago. The reason for this email is to discuss improvements between patient and doctor communication during GYN appointments.

      During my young adult life like most seemingly healthy women your only trip to the doctor is for the yearly exam to renew the pill or other forms of birth control. As published studies have now shown that this yearly exam is being questioned for effectiveness and necessity. These quick exams may have been more productive and helpful for me and millions of other young women if the doctor listened and asked questions.

      Millions of women have been tested for cervical cancer by performing a pap smear. This test is given for a rare cancer that afflicts twelve thousand women per year, where lupus afflicts millions of women that go untested and unnoticed. Lupus mostly affects women during childbearing years and this disease is not usually discovered by the GYN or even discussed as a possibility for health issues. Lupus can develop into a GYN issue if this disease like in my case affects fertility.The other complications can occur if a women not knowing she has lupus is pregnant which can in some instances be fatal for the mother or the baby. This again becomes a GYN issue.
      In hopes that other women don’t have to go through a lifetime of anguish as I did, I am hoping that someone like you could take my suggestions in helping women get diagnosed earlier in their life instead of being told that your are healthy and it’s all in your head.

      Everything I have read about being diagnosed with Lupus takes years such in my case, however I believe that assistance can start with a normal visit to the GYN if there was better communication. GYN can assist women by identifying these red flags:
      – Identify infertility
      – Migraines
      – Fatigue
      – Face rash and sensitive skin

      These symptoms alone could hopefully result in a referral and a test to determine if these symptoms could be Lupus or other autoimmune diseases that affects more women than men. Instead of focusing on just the healthy cervix and reproductive organs more time should be spent discussing any other health issues that afflict women. Especially now that these exams are not recommended for younger women or be carried out annually.

    • Linda, the NHS would have a bloody nerve trying to counter sue. A significant proportion of the women who develop CC have had regular screening – there’s absolutely no guarantee that, should you actually be among the tiny minority *at risk* from this disease, that screening would help you.
      The problem here is that mass screening is a political beast – successive governments have introduced more and more targets into the GP’s contracts over the years. Vaccines, cervical screening, cholesterol testing, blood pressure tests, the list is as long as your arm, and many of these have handsome rewards attached for the GP’s who hit their quota. Of course the awful behaviour of medical staff needs to be addressed – but any lawyer who decided to tackle such behaviour would be challenging the government too – it’s their damned targets which have encouraged and rewarded such unethical behaviour.
      The government itself is probably acting illegally by enrolling us into these awful programs in the first place, but they seem to be able to do as they please, especially when so many of the unenlightened public believe that screening is such a wonderful thing!

    • I wonder, Linda… if we could round up all the women who are ‘happy’ to have smears, give them a truth drug and interview them separately, I suspect that that many of them would instinctively feel that these kind of intimate procedures are wrong on many levels.
      But the powers-that-be have been spewing out these messages that testing is the ‘clever, responsible’ thing to do, ‘screening saves lives’ etc. etc. and ramming them down our throats for so long that even the women who have bad experiences at the hands of the medical profession convince themselves that their feelings don’t matter because they’re convinced they’re doing something ‘important.’
      I doubt many women who avoid testing (can’t ‘decline’ when they won’t take ‘no’ for an answer, can you?) are doing so through informed choice – most will either be repulsed by the idea of such an invasive procedure, or, like yourself, have had bad experiences and are put off further testing. It infuriates me when I hear the smug self-congratulatory women who’ve been lucky enough to never have suffered medical assault accuse those victims of ‘making a fuss over nothing’. It just displays a complete lack of empathy and frankly those women should be told exactly where to stick their worthless opinions!
      Does you husband know exactly what’s involved with a smear test? When the name of the test is a complete misnomer, I expect a lot of people don’t really understand how horribly invasive the test is. ‘Smear Test’ sounds so innocuous, doesn’t it?
      Show him a photo of a speculum (make sure it’s a metal one 😉 ) and ask him if he’d like to have one of those shoved up his arse if he had a prostate exam!

      As regards to the legal issue… any lawyer who took on your case would not just be taking on an unethical medical system, they’d be challenging the government too. It’s politicians who authorise screening programs to be introduced, who allow us to be automatically enrolled into these systems, and put obstacles in our way if we want to leave their precious program. Various health ministers, most of whom couldn’t find their own arse with both hands, have introduced more are more targets into the GPs contract over the years and have turned doctors consults into incentive chasing exercises.
      The house is rotten from the attic to the basement – no lawyer would dare tackle this job.
      BTW, if you were among the tiny number at risk from this disease, the NHS would be shooting itself in the foot if it dared to counter sue – they would have to prove that you would have been spared the disease if you’d had regular screening, and that’s simply impossible! A significant proportion of women who develop the disease have had regular screening – this test is as reliable as a chocolate teapot, ffs!
      The NHS claimed the smear test was a perfect, gold standard test (nope) until they got sued by a group of women…only then did they begin to admit that the test wasn’t perfect.
      A good lawyer who’s well informed on the problems with this test could tear those NHS reps to pieces.

      Take comfort in the fact that you are not alone – those of us here who are so vocal about the abuse are just the tip of the iceberg, since many women suffer in silence, too afraid to speak up for fear of being verbally assaulted by the pro-testing Nazis.
      Don’t allow hubby’s family to belittle you – pity them instead for being so ill-informed!
      There’s no point trying to discuss these issues with brainwashed sheep – concentrate on arming yourself so you can stand up to your abusers in future.

      • Ugh, sorry guys, I’ve been double posting due to forgetting to fill in my details and thinking the original posts had been lost. Idiot. :p

    • Linda, good luck with all your efforts on the legal front. From what I have gathered from reading, any woman who gets cervical cancer after having regular screening gets a payout of about £250,000. That’s why if you turn up at A&E desperately ill, they’ll want to check your screening history, to make sure they don’t have anything to pay out in damages. I’ve also seen other women say they have been to the police to report smear tests being forced on them, but they never follow these cases up, as there is no way it could ever be proven that you got up onto the couch of your own accord, and agreed to the procedure.
      Anyone who responds to a call-up letter for a smear is considered to have given consent to the procedure, no matter how badly wrong it goes. I’ve noticed pro-screeners on websites are keen to get doubters just down to the GP’s surgery, “just for a chat”. “You can always ask them to stop at any time”, they say, but once you are down there, it is viewed as consent for the procedure to go ahead.
      Like you, I have female relations who were aghast, when I told them I had opted out of smear tests years ago. It makes me so very sad at the extent of women’s gullibility, and university educated too…

      • I go with my wife as her advocate…the last visit she went just to confirm what she was experiencing was peri menopause, as a 50 yr old woman. The nurse asked her about her last pap, she responded that she could not recall, but it was at least ten yrs. She also said she was not there for one and she felt that one at this visit was unnecessary…as she was telling the nurse, this nurse simply stated she was due for one and as she kept asking other questions, she promptly opened and laid out the pap test materials. My wife explained why she did not want one done and that she would not submit to one…The nurse just nodded and continued opening (destroying the sterility of this packet). The nurse still insisted as if my wife had not clearly declined. I spoke up finally asking “Does she not have the right to decline any medical procedure she chooses?” The nurse said yes and rapidly left the room…of course the doctor (a female) attempted to talk her into it with the typical scare tactics, but my wife would have nothing to do with it.

      • Eddie, CONGRATULATIONS to you and your wife!!! For scoring a two-fer in standing up to both a nurse and a doctor. Knowing all too well how that situation played out, I want to tell you what took place between the nurse and doctor before the doc entered the room…and what will happen to your wife when/if she returns to that office. I also want to caution you and her to a certain diagnostic procedure.

        First however, contact Trovagene (USA) 858-952-7570 or (try them if outside USA or use UDO TEST out of South Africa or Delphi Screener; these are discussed in detail here or simply ask anybody). In researching alternatives to the pap, I discovered Trovagene and the alternatives people here turned me on to. Trovagene is legal, medically certified and accepted, and they’ll bill your insurance directly ($140) or you can pay $120 cash. They use PCR & capillary antibody testing for HPV which provides 90% accuracy via 53% for pap. A pap won’t test for HPV unless it’s abnormal. How convenient eh?! That hooks a woman for the next pap… Alternatives like Trovagene eliminate the HPV mystery. Once done, you tell your medical staff to “scrape themselves” as you’re HPV negative, newly divorced from pap, meaning you don’t have to retest via Trovagene or another alternative for 5 yrs.

        The test? She saves a portion of her first AM urine. This goes into a sterile container; you add a preservative, package everything, and deliver to your nearest FedEx pickup. NO shimmying down the table legs spread, no stirrups, no displaying her vagina within 12″ of the nurse & doctor’s faces, no painful scrape and no humiliating two-fingered salute (bimanual or rectovagina exam). Doctors hate it b/c it “strips’ them of their power–they cannot hold birth control as a hostage (or force a couple into sterilization) thus making a woman/couple submit to pap. Goodbye prestige and easy income; plus nosing around into a woman’s private sex life.

        Remember though, you and your wife must INSIST on Trovagene b/c most doctors have no idea it even exists. They’ll deny it, deny it works, deny they can order it, etc. While they can collect any body fluid they wish they’ll whine this test leaves them powerless to help you–and then try to make you feel guilty and ask why you’d want to opt out of papping when it’s to meant to help possibly save her life. Blah, blah, blah. This is what we went through…

        My husband, like you, took on the office staff for me. When I sent him to p/u my Trovagene kit, well, every doctor/nurse had the long faces (but the receptionist gave him a thumbs up! Ha!) Suddenly, I felt I had retaken control of my vagina! We also had done research through this site. My husband in the process asked the doctor many questions. The doctor didn’t know it, but he verified everything said on this site. That the bimanual provides a “feel” of one’s ovaries/uterus only in young, very skinny women. Now you know why we’re “trained” to strip and meekly climb onto the table at age 18. I’m sure your wife will verify everything.

        The nurse? She fled and tattled to the doc that you were speaking FOR your wife, but that you probably didn’t truly represent how she felt. So the doc came in, made her speech, and promptly gave up. But she made chart notes. If your wife comes in alone, she can expect a full court verbal assault trying every way possible to get her on the table naked. Hopefully, plan next visit again as this one. Be her advocate. Let her be yours. Watch how they react. And, demand full informed consent and make them respect your power to refuse useless BS like pap. Demand an alternative and prepare to hold your ground. Learn facts here. This applies to breast exams and your own prostate exams too. The 3/19 NY Times had a very elucidating article on breast biopsies and exams. Be sure to read it too.

        A test you must be aware of, given your wife’s age and peri-menopause, is the endometrial biopsy. A catheter is forced through the cervix (cramping). It has a burrowing spur on the end, and when this is retracted through the inside of the catheter, it forms a vacuum sucking in whatever tissue it’s chewed off the inside of the uterus.

        Know this: the doctor will boringly recommend “a couple Advil for cramping similar to menstrual…” but will also add “most women report not feeling anything at all.” Bear in mind the women who don’t report anything are crying at near hysterically levels and can’t speak; and Advil is total BS; and I promise the only women not reporting hellish pain and cramps on the scale 13-15/10 (with labor/delivery cramps/pain rating 9/10) are those cadaver women in med school. Seriously! Afterward, the doctor admitted this test is among the most painful office procedures done. Worse than colposcope biopsies, IUD’s, cryosurgery for dysplasia, LEEP, and all these qualify as hellish.

        Google your own facts for your wife. I’ve experienced this. The second time, the bastard doctor attempted it again (same “Advil” speech too) and while I froze and forgot, my husband remembered, protecting me and stopped him-telling me I didn’t receive full informed consent. Hubby recommended sedation & pain mediation at a surgery center. I took the lead, feeling empowered, and I said no…to which bastard doc said it “really wasn’t important after all.” Fucker. We never went back after that.

        Ask your wife how many women leave these appointments crying all the way home. They can’t discuss it and it hurts their marriages. Now you know. Ask questions and protect your wife.

        If you accompany your wife at next visit; the nurse, then the doc will try to isolate you out in the lobby or refer her for tests where the tech will try to do same (and your wife will have to absolutely insist the test won’t occur unless you’re there for her-like TVA-happened to us-and techs can be real assholes). Empower your wife to speak and hold her hand. When she looks them eye to eye, and resists, just watch their look of defeat and subtle but intense glare toward you.

        Be aware that for surgeries, some doctors will try to force a breast exam or full pelvic. Happened to me and hubby stopped that too. Just research postings here. Women end up in stirrups for simple things such as head colds. If your wife grooms herself, smells good, even if overweight is attractive…if she gets a more-than-usual exam (does NOT matter if from female nor male-lesbians or bi doctors enjoy this too) she is probably being exploited. Many women here will volunteer their personal experiences. None are pretty. And, if a doctor insists you stay away from looking over their shoulder while they are at your wife’s genitals–beware of special digital pen cameras. Jeff Abrams MD of San Diego… Do your research.

        God Bless you and your wife. And this site too.

      • Cat&mouse – Thank you. When she made the appointment, with her symptoms the nurse told her they were planning on doing a hysteroscopy that day (in the office)…keep in mind this was a new insurance plan and her FIRST visit with this office…when we researched it we were shocked because while there are office hysteroscopies done, they are rare and mostly done under anesthesia. Once the doctor talked with her (they were also not happy when she told the nurse she would be talking to the doctor initially fully clothed) the doc said she needed to perform a colposcopy and the doc did not understand why they told her hysteroscopy instead of colposcopy – later we both agreed that was to undermine research we could have done, so that my wife would have agreed to what they considered “less invasive” …expecting her to be relieved and willing.

        My wife declined this about four times. It was quite clear they were not happy with her (us)…I asked if the findings would be definitive and made my patent comments about guarantees (docs hate this and we know they never can give them) and the doc made the classic “gold standard” comment. We let her know that she is a person and not a number. The lady doc also said that the procedure is only painful “for a few minutes” (I always think when they make these stupid statements about holding the docs privates in a pair of vise grips for a few minutes…just how long she would really think that was and just how bad the pain would really be) ;. When we did the research some of the comments from women that had the procedure lined up with what you posted. “I’ve given birth and this was far more painful” – “that was so bad I screamed and had to be held down” etc etc

        I loved the docs final comment when she realized they were not going to be able to abuse her that day…”the only way we can be sure…etc etc ” She did not like my retort…”no guarantees and no promise of assurance doc, now is there?”

        In the end my wife found out she was exactly where she thought she was/is concerning peri menopause. She no longer submits to paps or breast exams/mammograms and neither of us go to doctors if we are asymptomatic. We do both go with each other to every appointment as advocates because the medical field is about dollars not patients and the first thing they protect is their practice and themselves.

      • Cat&mouse –

        I forgot a few other things…we always wait until a few weeks after a visit and then submit to receive the records…and you MUST insist in writing exactly what portion by definition the list of specific records you are demanding(all never cuts it). That way you get those notes the doc makes that you referred to…it gains you an insight about the docs real views. When my wife was still seeing male docs I got so outraged when I read this particular perverts comments in writing describing her as an attractive patient. This was the last male she will ever see and that certainly (FINALLY!) opened my wife’s eyes.

        We also have a standing order between us…if they say the advocate must leave and insist upon it…the patient immediately walks out never to return to that office again.

      • We (Hubby & I) have finally met a couple that mirrors ourselves in how we (learned) to take care of ourselves or survive doctor appointments. Truthfully, reading your posts have been super refreshing. I know frustrating a doctor, nurse & obtrusive staff isn’t the objective like ultimately protecting ourselves & getting what we need is. However, that side-effect when it happens to an office chock full of asshole award winners is most pleasing.

        There’s things you do (as we also do) that should be written into a patient’s survival guide. Getting copies of everything; labs, notes, all of it. Keeping your own files prevents them from “revising history” in case of pending lawsuit etc. This is a problem with computerized records. We get a summary copy but not actual notes. As if we can’t handle the unrefined truth? You also act as advocates for each other. Tell me how this has expanded and strengthened your marriage, helped communication & learning, and frustrated those who enjoy dividing and conquering a couple in a medical environment. Hard to imagine a supposedly nurturing, healing place being something totally opposite but in reality medical offices, from pediatrician, GP’s, specialists, tech specialist rooms (especially), even surgery centers, these practically require having a body guard so to speak. I’m sure you’ve had your experiences & have stories to tell.

        These people put on a professional air but are the farthest from professional. While men have their issues, women can be equally nasty. Especially when seeing another woman with a loving husband. Their inner jealousy will manifest to persecution. Your agreement for both parties to leave no matter what… We like that most. Having a consult fully clothed. Other advice you give is priceless in value.

        Upon admission to hospital, we provide a letter advising staff how we (both patient & spouse) want to be treated. We ask my doctor & nurses to read it & initial. So if needed spouse has advance permission (before a directive would become effective) if spouse feels necessary his/her opinion must be counted re treatment. There are times when I simply don’t speak up as I should. At that time, I need him to step up and he needs a tool to make staff respect this arrangement we have. Nurses going through divorces have approached me on the side “offering encouragement” for me to speak for myself…while turning their back on him. Afterward, I called their supervisor and asked why my orders weren’t respected.

        Two instances where it worked. My husband refused a med on my behalf which would’ve caused an adverse event. Another, in an NICU a female nurse gave me a hypnotic after a surgery. She would ask me questions re how I felt at which I’d grunt in reply. No real answer; just a noise. She’d interpret it as yes or no per her whims. She later literally threatened me with catheterization if I didn’t urinate by a certain time.

        Like you we also do advance research on any procedure. Isn’t it interesting how lazy doctors are re anesthesia rather telling and expecting patients to endure horrible pain? “It only hurts a few minutes…” As if that statement quantifies and makes the procedure ethical. How is that pain level measured? How is a few minutes defined? An unsuspecting patient is patently screwed. What’s horrible, how doctors/nurses have lost their “vision” is how they readily make children suffer pain and indignation. Uncaring toward the entire family.

        Male & female practitioners alike enjoy free genital exploration under the umbrella of medical care. I’ve had male doctors try to do a full pelvic for a pre op physical for an upper body surgery. Although either will do it, male doctors are more likely to skew a fully clothed consult towards a fully naked pelvic. Female nurses assigned to “prepping” for surgery particularly enjoy handling penis’ and other attractive women… The patient is extremely sedated or under anesthesia; unfortunately the advocate is locked out… A patient is totally naked for 15 min during this period. And naked likewise again before going to post op. And they wonder why they aren’t trusted. This is why medical staff make the worse, most paranoid patients. I shudder to think what the male or female pedophile healthcare worker gets away with.

        Today I consulted with a research doctor. She like me is brand name drug oriented due to shitty watered down generics that work primarily on the placebo model. Unfortunately, she states the public & governmental demand for cost control outweighs the common sense of quality control…

        Basically, would you agree that the more vague answers become to specific questions re pain, sensitive areas violated, how long an exam takes, etc, and demands the advocate leave, the more danger the patient is in? ER’s are the worst place for an advocate. The more attractive women are practically guaranteed a pelvic exam w/o the advocate present. We hate ER’s. Doctors operating their own surgery centers, using far too strong meds given the service, are also likely abusing. I’ve seen knuckle bruising where a doctor pushed a leg apart so he could get a crotch view…

        I hope to learn more of what you do, and what you’ve experienced. What lead the two of you in become proactive?

      • Cat&Mouse

        It is nice to finally hear others speak out against health care and call it for what it really is. It is refreshing and it is great to know another couple has found that teamwork is the only assurance of protection. I hate admitting this, but in my case (not my wife’s) I especially enjoy annoying, frustrating and even pissing off doctors…I recall a nurse once, many years ago say in a whisper to me “you don’t want to tick off the doctor…as if the doc was the one really in charge – I admit…since that day that has been always considered, in my mind anyway, a bonus.

        EHR’s ohh my(Electronic health records). This is the maybe worst thing that has happened in the medical field for the patient and it is sold as the greatest asset. I have done a ton of research…do you know that there is a way to alter records after the fact with zero way for a patient to prove it has been done(every system is set up differently and many have few safeguards) . You are right, the patient is only offered a summary and they now no longer even keep ANY paper records or record on paper ON PURPOSE. The entire purpose is to protect the hospitals, doctors and clinics. It is sold as the great advancement to help providers diagnose and document etc etc complete BULL CRAP. Anything that a patient says or writes down for doctor B can be accessed by doctor F at any time, with no approval from patient required (HIPAA rights were altered in 2010 to allow this – specifically because of the new EHR’s that would soon be common practice ) and the patient usually never is privy to this electronic assault. I was specifically denied access to a health care provider strictly because I would not submit (allow) EHR recording on myself in any way shape or form. I asked several times in several ways, are you denying me health care if I refuse to allow you to use EHR system fir my records…and after much denial but never saying they would submit to my request I was finally told (in legalistic terms protecting their butts) YES.

        You asked how this has strengthened and cemented our marriage…Well it was a long and difficult process to get there.

        I personally have never trusted doctors, my first experience as a 4 yr old involved a house call (mid 60’s in New York state)…where the doc alone in my room abused me. Later in my life I watched doctors slowly (not purposefully) kill my mother. This included the removal of all of her teeth at the age of 36 to overcome an over bite, in that same era a doc mis-diagnosed her Crones disease and put her on a milk diet(the inability and ridiculously painful process of not tolerating lactose)…that progressed her disease a decade in a year and as a child I do not recall my mother not suffering physically in some form or another….Her and my dad completely and blindly kept trusting these idiots even while they complained about them. Eventually when she contracted Cancer (I believe the drug laetril brought on the cancer) and a genius doc looking at a chest X ray said she was fine and may have a minor case of Pneumonia. It turns out this idiot was actually reviewing x rays from a year (or so)earlier, he admitted as much to me directly when he apologized…silly me all I could think of is “Hey asshole, I only get one mother and I am really attached to her, thanx for nothing”. Lost my mom when she was just 58 and I was 30.

        My wife was the typical female product of society (so to speak) and completely trusted doctors and thought I was over reacting and basically the only real problem when it came to most of her health care concerns.

        In our early relationship she had every right to feel this way about me. I was like the over protective pet wolf. It’s like I was the dog that means well by protecting the master but in the process is actually making things worse. (Now we affectionately refer to me and tell staff I am her “Bi polar bear” ) I am there to remind her of the questions she wanted to ask, to question anything that seems not right and to be the big bad ass bear if and when necessary (Only) Knowing she will leave if they bully past me keeps me much calmer. In the past when she went alone she did once have a doc attempt to get her to undress in front of him. AND… at the end of her first vaginal delivery the doctor did not wait for the placenta and he tore the cord, I literally thought I watched my wife die in front of my eyes…she had just endured all of the labor process, only using demerol…and she at no time screamed etc…when this idiot was trying to yank this out of her, she sat up looking me in the eyes…and mid blood curdling scream she just froze…and laid back eyes open. I was certain she had died. They had inserted something into her IV and just pushed me from the room…I wandered around the hospital for about four hours wondering what I was going to do…then I was told she was in recovery (D&C) and so on. I also recall a doctor once before she was going to go into delivery…pull her gown down in front of me, he gripped both of her nipples twisting them while looking at ME, not her…scolding her for not properly toughening up them before the baby was born. I was beyond livid. That was a military hospital and I was in the service, had that not been the case, I would have just leveled that prick. A female Gyno once hurt her so bad, that she jerked hard from the reaction, this eventually led to a C spine fusion surgery. It also had her return to a male gyno that she now acknowledges groomed her, this pervert when he was about to go in to perform a laparoscopy said to me “ I will treat her like she is my wife” I grabbed his arm and told him, NOPE, you treat her like she is MY wife. It was beyond refreshing when she admitted that this pervert had been grooming her and completely fooled her. She was young and naive when she first started seeing him and all I could do was grin and bear it…but it definitely did some serious damage to our relationship. This is the jerk that had written in her records that she was an attractive patient.

        We have had many disagreements over the years concerning all of this. The turning point, the point in time when she finally realized that male doctors are men and not super human…This site. and the male doctor admitting what I have been telling her for about 35 years. This is the only issue we have ever had as a couple. Now we are on the same page and now she agrees with the need to gather and maintain your own records (that I have always done) and asked her to do. She thought it was silly before, she still ordered them but she thought I was too untrusting. The cementing is that we both agree that we are the only ones truly concerned about our partners long term health. It always hurt me that she acted like she trusted the medical people more than she trusted me. That is no longer the case.

        We really like your letter submitted at admission…and will be doing that. Great idea. Kudo’s to you for calling the supervisors and reprimanding them for not following your pre written orders.

        You asked: “Basically, would you agree that the more vague answers become to specific questions re pain, sensitive areas violated, how long an exam takes, etc, and demands the advocate leave, the more danger the patient is in? “ Totally agree…the entire system is not set up for patients, it is set up to make as much money as fast as possible and to protect the interests of the facilities and doctors. Pain, suffering, humiliation and the poor care results are just considered by-products.

        I apologize for the very long post…and hope I answered your questions, if not ask again. So…Tell me, what is it that brought you two to where you are now?

      • Eddie, it is such a delight to read your posts! Your wife is so lucky to have a husband who protects her. And it is good that she now came to understand and appreciate it.

        You are absolutely right stating that no doctor would ever be interested in long term health of any patient as much as their partner would. The whole medical system is only concerned with its own safety (legal and physical) and profits.

        And you are so right about the electronic health records. What you are saying really echoes what I read in medical articles here. EHR, eHealth, or whatever they call it in each country is only there to help the doctors and the bureocrats, but it greatly disadvantages the patients and diminishes their privacy and safety.

      • i believe the correct direct link to the article about the electronic health records in Australia is here

        I find that the coming lack of privacy is everywhere. People pushing for mandatory vaccination are opening a very scary door. Even if they be for sensible reasons such as eliminating polio and other serious diseases.

        I am not a big user of public health care. I would rather use natural remedies but the problem is the costs and I have trouble accessing medical diagnostic tests unless I use conventional medical doctors. Then I have to pay for the herbal treatments myself which the medical doctors either ignore or claim are ineffective. So in fact if I do end up getting seriously sick before I walk into an emergency clinic it would probably cost the public purse more (so my ex-doctor tells me). But he fails to give me full information or even free copies of my test results. Doctors want to charge patients for their medical records. It is totally outrageous. I can apply for records from the Ontario government but these are only billing records not my actual medical records. The medical records are owned by the doctor. Where is the privacy in that? And my cancer screening records are owned by the government which I can ask to see but never get erased.

  26. Linda: Thank you & you’re very welcome. It means a lot to me & kind of caught me by suprise.

    I am quite angry about the situation & I find it very odd that there isn’t more of a male confrontational stance on this sort of thing. Maybe it’s because there isn’t more of a “good & bad wolf” mentality with ethics?

    • IMHO, men have been deliberately locked out of the process. A matter of convenience so to speak. Doctors don’t want them there b/c they ask questions and get in the way. Some women don’t want them there due to embarrassment. Nurses because it’s none of their business. Other excuses, it’s a woman’s issue, he isn’t needed, he’s at work, he causes a distraction, he wants to watch, it’s a sex thing, or she won’t talk freely or truthfully if he’s present… Funny how none of the sex thing ever applied to the doctor or nurse however. So-called professionals parroted these mantras. Nurses in particular felt some need to protect wives from their husbands presence. Why does the establishment have to isolate a couple from each during something so “routine?” Even during childbirth?

      Society developed and polarized; men found themselves locked out of everything involving the healthcare of their wives & children. The married couple and family unit have suffered greatly as a result. Wives became resentful and took out their frustrations from painful and humiliating exams on their husbands afterward. Husbands felt cheated on, ignored, and literally cut off by a very cold process that turned their living wives into raging bitches. Husbands felt defensive & helpless to comfort their crying wives. This friction spread out slowing intimacy and the divisiveness extended to how children were reared. As for the all-powerful grinning doctor driving off in his Mercedes Benz? The only thing men could do was try to imagine a belief that the doctor saw so many he didn’t care… Sure. How many people simply wanted to dismember the doctor & his bitch nurse?

      Good wolf/bad wolf is a well thought out way to describe this unbalanced equation. A husband’s place is always at his wife’s side no matter what. And vice-versa. The work we go through making sure we control as much of that, that we each are treated with respect, being able to ask questions, is just incredible. We participate here, telling everybody we know about this site, telling women about Trovagene, about informed consent. We hope one day enough people see the wrongs and demand they are made right that politicians and policy makers make changes.

      It begins with education and ethics. Presently there is no education and minimal ethics. If husbands really knew what a pap smear test was, if couples knew the risks the colpo brush was to their unborn child, if we truly had informed consent, if the delivery room was not the first place CPS could meddle with a family, we’d be on our way to a modern society considerate of every individual, couple, and the family unit.

      • The major reason nurses are so vigorous in discouraging a woman’s partner from being there is because these exams offer an extremely rare opportunity to screen for domestic violence; a good number of women have been saved from abusive and controlling relationships because a nurse stood her ground.

      • Pardon me. I had to stop halfway through your comment. Needed a tissue to mop up tears from all my sobbing. In my family there’s three generations of RN’s. What we discuss most is how RN’s have stopped MD’s from harming patients.
        The best thing any woman can do is to bring her husband, partner, or now simply spouse into the exam room. Period. He/she is her best advocate. What you spout is nonsense. Simply, I have not met one woman who won’t speak about her life until she’s stark naked and in the stirrups.
        If there’s bruising, it will be exposed when the clothes come off. Regardless. The reaction of the partner can also be appropriately measured at that point too. It is our mandated duty to report suspected abuse. Not to fence off the exam room as if it’s entry into another country.
        How many women will we examine with that mindset? Will they want to come in? Knowing we’re waiting to strip them naked and interrogate? What about the alleged abusing partner? Will they allow the office visit if they suspect the obvious?
        Worse yet, your stance does nothing to help the husband/partner come forward during an exam. How else is that person to spontaneously say, for example, self-abuse is occurring?
        After I wrongly vented my post-exam anger on my husband, he told me that he would accompany me from then forward or we would break up. Since then…
        He prevented me from being molested by a doctor who came out to view me physically in the waiting room before telling the nurse “prep for full exam.” The nurse did all she could to hold him back. When the doctor saw him walking with me, hand in hand, the doctor backed off. All over a yeast infection urgent care after hours visit (antibiotic had been Rx for sinus infection two days prior).
        Another time an orthopedic wanted to performa full pelvic on me before doing a cervical fusion. Also prevented by my husband.
        Another doctor deliberately lied to me about pain, so he could do a endometrial biopsy the lazy way. That means he was too lazy to offer me analgesia and my suffering was ratable at #17 on a 1-10 scale. At the return visit, lazy MD wanted to repeat the procedure. My “maternity memory” prevented me from recalling the horror from the first time. But hubby stood his ground. Told doc that he was not giving me “informed consent” and if the procedure was necessary it would be done at a surgery center with appropriate support…
        Consider the hell I endured with cervical cryosurgery before I met my husband. “The freezing cold temp from the wand makes it own pain relief…” the gyn told me. Lying, lazy bastard. “Your cervix does not have that many nerve endings on it so I don’t know how you can feel so much pain.” Hopefully, one day he’ll get to experience that wand on his penis.
        The pap invented by the Nazi and the slaveowner is due to be outlawed. There are alternatives which are safer, more accurate, and much more woman-friendly.
        I’m tired of knowing male and lesbian MD’s, take their time performing an internal on a good looking thin young woman while on an older, fatter woman who should have something wrong with her (who deserves a thorough exam) they are in and out in a few seconds as if she’s got cooties.
        How many men have you used the nurse to keep out of the room while you took your sweet time “examining” the woman? Did you enjoy seeing her engorge in the stirrups? Her smell? Her anxiety? Did you deliberately message her cervix to arouse her? Did you pinch her nipples? Enjoy seeing her nipples harden when your fingers entered her? Did you consider performing a leisurely rectovaginal exam just because you wanted to “rule out” nothing? What about asking her about her sexual practices? To see if she’ll admit to you something like a lesbian encounter she has not disclosed to her partner?
        Did it feel powerful to you, knowing her partner (likely a man) was frustrated, upset, and locked out?
        Should I even have to ask you how it felt to you; if you were guiding a virgin through the process?
        The old, has been RN’s who do your dirty work for you, thinking they are heroes, are no better than you are. I’ve seen it all and I’m disgusted. No wonder so many hate ob-gyns.

      • ADoctor: Well, if someone is screening someone else for domestic violence on their own, that is medical violence. Iatrogenic assault is completely possible & someone that they are in a relationship with would potentially act as a useful hedge against that.

        If the nurse sees it as being under attack when the patients wants things done a certain way toward them & is, thus, “standing her ground” when counteracting this- that is already a hostile environment & is a reason for someone else to be there.

        Besides, exactly how are medical personnel getting people out of relationships?

      • Really? When a woman is naked and in stirrups this is the “only” time she can be screened for intimate partner abuse? She can very well sit in an office alone with a health care professional and talk about her life with ALL HERS CLOTHES ON.

      • I hate to inform you, “ADoctor” or whatever you are, but there’s a general misconception that domestic violence, rape, and other shitty things women do typically fear will stop (Cause let’s face it it’s not a common worry or fear for males) if we get the hard forensic evidence it will magically be taken seriously by the justice system!

        If she goes into the exam room with you and her partner is abusing her, and she defies that he doesn’t want her in there alone. He will find ways to torment, harass and manipulate her once she goes home. She probably won’t leave him, all that usually happens is he may get a slap on the hand (instead of being put 6ft under) he’ll go home, and make sure she just never thinks to defy him again… reinforced with more abuse. All that really does is make the situation worse on the woman.

        Hate to tell you “ADoctor” but your stupid short post, that belongs on the short bus is nothing but pure ignorance. I am with a man now who is sweet as sugar to me and our daughter, a crappy nurse tried to bar him from entering the exam room AFTER the crappy receptionist told me I had to fill out and sign the little ‘sexual assault’ check list on my form, I refused. She almost told me I couldn’t see a doctor, I told her “Fuck it!” The Doc stepped in and told the receptionist to back off! Then they turn around and say HE can’t come in the room with me, when I have NO intent to get an exam and instead want birth control!? I said “Screw it we’re leaving” She changed her mind. It was the most frightened I ever felt at a doctor’s office short of the few times I’ve gone without a witness not employed by the medical system.

        Why did I need to fill out the little ‘sexual assault screen’ check box? So it could be on paper and in the medical system that I am a “Rape case”? So doctors can still look at that and belittle and mock it as a “Rape Case” when I request a female for intimate exams and they want to refuse me this request because it’s ‘sexual discrimination’, when I want to request an all female birth team and they bully and belittle me-KNOWING I have PTSD and they’re not just flipping but stomping on every trigger they can with their behavior? Why would I go into a doctor’s office without my man when I am aware I will be pressured and coerced into reliving the worst things of my life through post-traumatic triggers caused by the nature of the exams? If the doctor is a man he’ll yell at me or be hard and painful with his examining because I mention he scares me cause he is INSISTENT on looking down there and he’s pissed I won’t let him look there, instead of where my problem actually is.. If it’s a female doctor she’ll do the exam without even looking at me in the eyes as I quietly cry and hide my face through the whole exam, they don’t give a shit obviously cause I warn them that those exams cause bad feelings and they didn’t-fucking-CARE! – I get to relive those horrid memories they think they can sum up and help with by checking a stupid box on their forms and they don’t give a crap. Is it just some heads up to them that I may not be a ‘compliant patient’? She’ll settle her nerves after a coffee break, but it may take months of therapy to pack away all the emotional crap she decided to take out and throw everywhere for me to sort through and put away again! Why are we giving shitty doctors the responsibility to ‘protect us’ when they have no problem showing no compassion, or understanding even if we DO mark the stupid little check box? Cause I used to mark the check box, but when I learned it made NO DIFFERENCE in my treatment I thought it was useless and stopped marking it.

        Hate to tell you “Adoctor” but Doctor’s abuse too even if it’s not sexual, I relived every fucked up thing that ever happened to me sexually my entire pregnancy cause of the lack of compassion and cold insensitivity-NOT the man who they wanted to keep out of the exam room later, he was holding me together as they tore me down. But doctor’s are so concerned about sexual abuse! No, they’re no different then the asshats that have sexually abused someone, they hide behind their peers, kick up logical smoke screens to create denial when doubting their innocence, and placing the blame on the victim as best they can so they are not considered the real problem. Doctors can’t and won’t stop the abuse toward women, the ONLY thing that will stop the abuse toward women is making the idiots who do it responsible, that includes making it a serious crime, forcing police officers to take it seriously, forcing lawyers and court systems to take it seriously and stop victim blaming, and finally make the punishment something not to be laughed at (Death penalty all the way for rapists IMO!). Stop calling it “Medical Sexual Misconduct” stop calling it “Third, Second, and First” Degree rape or domestic violence. Stop making women go through a system that protects the perverted and greedy doctors to make a report on suspicious activity, so they can sweep it under the rug. Call it what it is, crimes against humanity (Because their mommy parts have been mistreated and they’re a bit necessary for our species, cause we ain’t mastered cloning yet!) and close all the shitty loop holes of the system off and THAT will finally stop the abuse.

        Maybe if this happened, so many women’s faith in HALF THE HUMAN POPULATION(YEAH THAT’S A LOT-Cause men are EVERYWHERE!) wouldn’t be shaken, shattered, or destroyed beyond repair! Sadly being cautious or worrying about HALF THE HUMAN POPULATION is a valid fear still existing in modern society cause the law doesn’t protect us, the law is a joke when it comes to sex crimes. But these crimes are serious because it’s hard to avoid half the human population! Stop shuffling around responsibility and place it where it belongs on the people who commit these crimes doctor or not treat them the same!

        And I’m NOT sorry if I sound like a manhater or ‘too emotional’ but you do know the largest sex organ a woman has is her brain, right? So the emotion can’t be so easily disconnected from the vagina! I know better about myself! And it HURTS when you DO LOVE A MAN as much as I do my husband, and you get nervous when you want to experience intimacy with them because some asshole (Doctor or not) decided to use you as a sexual chew toy LONG ago and the emotional scars linger.

        TLDR, “ADoctor”?

        Take your crappy little ignorant statements and shove them up your ass-sideways! You wouldn’t know the first thing about what abused women need, and if you did would you fight the medical system to get it for them? Cause when a Doctor, or Nurse does that they simply trade places with the abuser or controlling spouse for a short time to take control themselves, and reinforce the already growing and flourishing idea that she doesn’t get a say in what happens to her body and life.

      • Pardon, I need to make one thing clear about my previous post. I am not saying women have to avoid and fear men to avoid being abused. I was simply emphasizing that when a woman’s faith in men as fellow human beings is shattered it actually encompasses a massive group and isn’t like some typical fear of bees, or dogs. The problems it causes are a very serious problem in society and need to be addressed as such and are not.

        There are good men in the world! It just sucks when you feel ‘hand shy’ toward all of them till you get to know them and feel safe with them.

    • Thats awsome to hear. there needs to be more woman standing up to doctors to make them respect choice bc clearly most of them over ride the word no.

  27. Linda,

    The sad truth when dealing with a “no win – no fee” attorney is that they are only going to take cases where they see a better than average chance of getting a large settlement, which is how they get paid. They’re not interested in low profile cases with little chance of a large financial return.

    There are a few males who post here that feel strongly on this issue, and do what we can to help when we can.

    IMHO, the high pressure tactics used to try to force women to comply with these screening exams is simply the most egregious example of the medical industry’s blatant lack of respect for informed consent. Every individual has the right to be given ALL the relevant information, both pro and con, regarding any medical test, treatment or procedure, to be allowed to make their own decisions what will or will not be done, and have those decisions respected.

    In spite of some of the progress we’ve seen, I suspect that unless/until the medical providers get their collective craniums out of their rectums and start to truly respect the patient’s right to decide, these issues are going to have to continue to be fought by individuals at the case by case level.


    • You know, I’ve been noticing something: Sometimes people do weird things when they think they’re going to die. I think the “thirst” is a big factor- that urge to see what’s next. Including things that they regret.

      I wonder if maybe people had less of a “subtraction state” view of the afterlife (like there’s just the same as before- MINUS the breathing, MINUS the activity, MINUS the friends, etc…), if things would be a bit different.

  28. Not to come off overly self-conscious or anything, but I noticed that whoever “Anonymous” was that complained about me & was saying how annoying I am has a bunch of “Likes” & less “Dislikes.”

    I don’t really care too much what he thinks & figure he could just be liking his own post again & again, but I figured I’d ask: Do you guys feel that way?

    I get that I post things that don’t have immediately obvious meanings & it can be a long orbit, but it IS stuff that pertains to the subject- just in a more foundational way. I DID see that I have a bunch of “Likes” on my reply, but I’m just curious.

    • Alex, you rock. Your comments are appreciated, as are your ideas for the site. It was you who came up with the idea for the discussion forum and to date it has 1,871 comments. So to answer your question, no, I don’t feel that way.

      • Thanks, Sue. Yeah, I didn’t make the connection about the Discussion thread- ha ha. Guess if I was seen as a pain in the ass that wouldn’t have been opened.

      • I agree, I know my posts are usually long and often repetitive, I’m always aware someone uninformed might be reading so it may be my only opportunity to open their eyes.
        Planned Parenthood of Arizona called my comments “spam” but I felt it was more they didn’t like what I was saying, if I were scolding non-screeners I think they would have given me a big green tick. I take the view that if someone doesn’t like my comments or your comments or any other comments, they can skip over them.
        There would be no need to stop viewing a site because you don’t care for the comments made by one of the posters, you just read over them. I’m sure many people have read over or blocked my comments, fine, as long as someone here or there reads them and is motivated to take a closer look at these programs….then I’m happy. Changing the system will be hard, but saving/informing/educating/warning individual women is possible.

    • Alex, I don’t post often, but I try to log in and read as often as I can. I find your posts to be interesting and thought provoking and you often bring a different angle to various issues. Please don’t be put off from giving us the benefit of your insights. Keep posting, as I agree with Sue, you Rock.

      • Thank you, Chrissy. Don’t worry, I wasn’t going to stop providing insights or anything- I was just worried that I was annoying you guys & you were holding back to spare my feelings or something.

    • You’ve made some very supportive and kind comments to my ramblings as a crazy woman paranoid of male doctors! You’ve never told me that about myself, even family has confirmed at least one of those titles I just gave myself!

      I wanted to give some back and say, you are not obnoxious, annoying or anything of the sort. After reading their post any typos or the like you have I attribute to clumsy fingers (My husband does it a lot when typing.) or an auto finish feature on whatever hardware you are posting from!

      Not many guys seem to post here, (You are a guy, right? people get so androgynous to me on the web sometimes) but I did assume you are and I feel it would be nice if more men in all societies were more sensible and compassionate as you and the other supportive men who post here! ❤

      • Yes I am (I know, “Alex” is a name that can work either way). Thank you very much!

        Actually, I tend to make typing mistakes because I’m typing as I’m thinking & sometimes I type things phonetically). I definitely have that other problem (that a lot of guys seem to have) with small keyboards, though.

  29. Hi Alex. I’ve only known you for a short while but I think you are an OK bloke. I have found as you go through your lifes path not everyone will like you or get where you are coming from. Anon is entitled to their opinion and only knows you from what you post. Everyone here (that means you included as well as anon have helped me cope over the past few weeks since joining the site.) I am suffering a range of emotions at the moment and access this site all day every day and read the posts. i don’t always comment every day but at the moment its like I need you all just to validate my anger.

    • Thanks, Linda. I figured you didn’t see me that way, given your other post (which really meant a lot to me- as did yours just recently, Sue).

      Your anger IS most certainly justified/valid. It’s an unconventional attack. Imagine a cartel boss has someone’s legs amputated in surgery, instead of chopped off with a machete- still an attack, yes?

      • Alex…that reminds me of something I read a while ago. A lady was going through med school and a professor stated “There are no testicall not worthy of saving and no uterus worthy of saving” Something along those lines anyway.

      • Well, in the case of that guy’s mother- yeah, it’s true. I mean after he was born, it was a “damage done” situation, but beforehand… .

        I wonder if any of these putzes think of that. Like when they cause a msicarriage or something?

  30. we need to examine the comment on “no uterus is worth saving” usually added is “in a woman over 45”. But also “in a woman over 35 who says she has completed her family”.
    Some really interesting information in this article about why so many hysterectomies are being performed and doctors who do them are not giving the truth.
    There are often alternative therapies or surgeries but hysterectomies are quick, do not require more training or even fully informed patient consent. What are we usually talking about here? I feel another article might be coming down the line.

  31. Hello Elizabeth. Over the past few days I have been leaving comments on a number of forums I think young women will access. They have all been left except for one. Whoever is watching over the NHS site has rejected my comments on three occasions. All I have written is that women who don’t like smear tests can do now do their own in the comfort of their own home. No stress!!!. Hardly radical in content. If you key in to your search engine ‘Pap smear industry worth millions’ A wealth of stuff comes up on the manufacturers and their profits. What many women don’t realise that the older metal speculums were actually safer. A significant number of women have been cut by the rough edges of the new plastic ones. including me. That in many cases is what is actually causing the bleeding. but of course they don’t tell you that.

    Hello Anon. I live near St Helens Merseyside England and apparently the local GP’s have got together some time ago to discuss the problem of unnecessary hysterectomies. My Mum who had some gyn problems recently was worried about having to have hers removed. Apparently the GP said to her what God put in to you is what we like to leave in you – unless there are serious problems we need to address. I think this is incredibly enlightened. I get the impression they like to whip ’em out over there even if you show up with constipation!!!

    Hi Sue. I have gone over every inch of this site over the past few days as well as trawling the internet but I can not find any information on women who have sued Doctors over unwanted smear test or consultation room ‘ambushing’ Is there such a thing. I have approached a couple of no win no fee solicitors now and none of them are interested. Looking back if I had been given an informed choice and the chance to decline smear testing I would have done.

    • Linda: You live in England, not “Pindostan” (as I’m coming to call it increasingly frequently). See, it seems the British (with plenty of caveats & exceptions, of course) have more intellect & honor than a suprisingly large number of Yanks. Oddly enough, this general situation & the ramifications of it are typically bitched about. And I mean all the time. Drives me nuts to run into the “That’s a good way to be & fuck you for being that way” trait.

    • Linda you are doing some terrific work investigating all of this. I try to post where I can under a variety of names. After I’ve seen all the posts Eliz has put out, I feel it is only right to take up the baton from her where possible. She has been working so hard to let everyone know the truth, not just for Aussies and Kiwis but for women elsewhere in the world too.

      I’ve been posting a lot on as I had endometrial cancer last year, and have benfited a lot from speaking to others in the same boat. It is terrific to hear that the medical profession here is advocating sparing women from hysterectomy. I decided long ago that no way would I ever have a hysterectomy, so it was a terrible time for me to have to come to terms with a total hysterectomy, both ovaries and tubes, and some lymph node removal too, which has still left me with numb patches in both legs. I did all the research of the harms of hysterectomy and presented it to them, but they just said I wouldn’t be around to get the osteoporosis and cardiovascular disease if I didn’t have it done. Well done to your mum, and best wishes to all on this website hoping you will all go to your graves with intact, unmutilated bodies! I do get very upset about the whole business sometimes, but there is always someone else worse off.

      On a brighter note, with the general election coming up, I’ve been researching MP’s and writing to them about screening. Jo’s Trust lobbies MP’s to say how wonderful they are and what a fantastic job the cervical screening programme is doing for us, every January in the House of Commons. I find that their relationship with the government and the NHS goes way beyond what other charities would get and is suspiciously cosy. I have recently written to an MP near us about a photo shoot he had with Jo’s Trust, and informed him of “the other side” to this screening programme, and I got a good reply. I intend to write to more, as I don’t think any of them realise that many women are disatisfied with the programme and the way it treats women. Many of them think it’s a vote winner, with women, as it shows they care about our bodies. With the election coming up, I think it’s important they are aware that not all women want screening. Some of the politicians supporting Jo’s Trust on these early day motions are Steve Rotherham, who led the unsuccessful campaign to lower the age limit from 25 last year, Sarah Champion, both from your neck of the woods, and Glenda Jackson. If all they are hearing is voices demanding more screening, then we need to tackle this, and this is my next project.

      • Judging by the recent appalling selfie campaign that Jo’s Trust was running, this awful charity wants to lower the screening age to 16. 16!!!!
        I have to admit I didn’t look up the website as I’ve become extremely allergic to this kind of bullshit and it makes me nauseous. Not good for my blood pressure either.
        Now, there have been several reviews over the screening policy in regards to age, and the director of Jo’s Trust (pompous prick, IMO) has sat in on at least one of them, so the charity must know the true reason why screening isn’t recommended for the youngest women – yet they continue to campaign for the age to be lowered, what does that tell you?
        It tells me that this charity doesn’t give a damn about the welfare of women, only about itself.
        A sensible government should never invite a self-serving charity to the table when discussing public health policy. The fact that these politicians haven’t spotted the elephant in the room just goes to show how dim they really are – if this charity thinks the screening programme is so great, why are they constantly campaigning to get it changed?

    • Hi Linda. My best friend starting suffering very heavy bleeds a few years ago, investigations revealed nothing so I suspected it was perimenopause. She has other health issues which probably don’t help.
      They gave her hormone tablets which helped, then pushed her into surgery, making all the usual promises. After D&C and endometrial ablation her problems seemed to get worse and the Gynaecologist stated firmly that hysterectomy would be the next step. I was absolutely appalled and tried to talk her out of it, but she was so desperate she went ahead and scheduled the surgery – thankfully she had an eight month wait and I managed to persuade her to consider an IUD – not that I’m a big fan of those, mind, but better that than be butchered because of a hormonal imbalance. The information sheets they gave her on hysterectomy were just appalling – they made it sound like you were having your appendix out!

      In regards to smears, I think we may start to see change when the new information leaflet is distributed. Even though it is still woefully lacking, it does at least make clear that screening is a choice and there are perfectly valid reasons for declining the test. So hopefully women will realise that smears aren’t mandatory!

      • Kate, I hope your friend can hold out and get through the menopause with her womb intact. I was, and still am totally against hysterectomy, I was so angry at being told I had to have it. The surgeon told me as I was coming round from the GA for the hysteroscopy for the removal of a supposed polyp. Pack of lies that was. “You’ll be coming back for a hysterectomy” she told me gleefully, like I’d won it in a raffle. When a I complained and told her I wouldn’t be, the nurse said “I don’t know what you’re moaning about, women who come here are glad to get one”. It was one of the worst days of my life. You really feel like you’re on death row. The other thing is that in cases of cancer the surgery must be carried out within 62 days of the first referral from the GP to the NHS Trust or the hospital will not meet government targets for cancer, so you are railroaded through this at an alarming rate. It was an absolutely terrifying time for me, and it has still left me emotionally fragile 10 months further on. Imagine, you find you have spotting in your underwear, in 2 months from then you can find yourself totally hysterectomised or with your breasts cut off. Truly terrifying.

      • Kate, it bothers me greatly what this charity gets up to, and what links it has. There are plenty of other charities in the UK supporting cancer, but they don’t get the publicity this one gets. Why? Google gives them free advertising, so search smear test, and Jo’s Trust comes up at the top of every single page you scroll through. They get publicity in Parliament, and in every single newspaper article, and appear with politicians in photo shoots. They also have links with big business, with Sainsbury’s promoting the charity through sales of their knickers every year. There is the Eve Appeal which is a charity for all gyn cancers but you never hear a peep out of them…

  32. Hi Ada,
    Ha! I’m sure the women who are pushed into hysterectomy are ‘glad’ to get one – after all, it’s promoted as if it’s a cure-all and has no downsides, other than risks associated with surgery itself. The Gyn who was dealing with my friend spoke about it as if he was going to pull a rotten tooth. Bloody disgusting. I pointed out to my friend that the menopause doesn’t last forever, but if she has the surgery and suffers problems afterwards they can’t exactly pop her womb back in!
    I feel for you, I really do. How have you been coping with the aftermath, are the so-called healthcare professionals still behaving like tossers?

    Jo’s Trust makes me sick – if they really cared about women they would be campaigning for better testing. This nasty agenda they have of pushing screening for very young women shows that they’re only looking after themselves. After all, more testing from a younger age means more *survivors* to support the charity, right?

    • P.S. Good for you for tackling the MP’s! What was the good reply – did he actually take note of your criticisms?
      I wonder if there’s any bribery involved in this lobbying, or it’s just about the opportunity to win pink votes?

      • I am now about 10 months post hysterectomy, and there are times when I feel very emotional, angry and sad that I’ve had everything cut out. It is a slow healing process. Because I only have a 10% risk of recurrence, and the cancer would always show symptoms if it recurred, I’m on a “patient-led follow-up”, which means it is down to me to call them and arrange a follow-up appointment if I want it. I don’t have any regular check-ups. The ball is in my side of the court now. I know that with other gyn cancers, cervical and ovarian, they need to keep checking with paps and blood markers, but with endometrial they said I’d get sblood spots again if it recurred, and I have a hospital number to ring directly. I had 1 check-up a few weeks after the operation, and that’s been it, so hopefully there will be no further trips back to Hysterectomies’R’Us again, and good riddance too. I’ve had no further contact with them.

        Linda, I totally know how you feel about not being able to forget a bad incidence from the past, no matter how long ago it was. I was deeply traumatised by a smear test forced on me in 1997, and if I could have a procedure to eradicate a single experience from my brain, it would be this. Even now, nearly 18 years on, it can move me to tears and anger, just thinking about what happened. I have since then had 2 children, the second requiring me to undergo substantial repairs, fully conscious in the stirrups but with a spinal block, and also amniocentesis where some fluid from the placenta is removed for testing for Down’s syndrome, but never has any of this affected me nearly so badly as this smear test, which was forced on me without any warning, all those years ago. I don’t think there has been any research into the distress caused by having medical procedures forced onto you against your will, in fact, I would say that the medical profession is almost baffled that there is such a thing. A great pity that the student nurse who posted on here a while ago, failed to see that such distress can be caused by some of the procedures they carry out on a day to day basis. Finding out that I had to have a hysterectomy after steering clear of the medical profession for so long was a hugely upsetting experience for me. It was very, very frightening, especially as it brought back a lot of memories from the 1997 incident.

      • Adawells: I don’t think they’re baffled, it just occurs to them that an idiot tends to come off innocent so they play stupid.

        The presentation is that they aren’t aligned toward that, they just don’t know. And, of course, this would facilitate continuation. If they don’t know something & KEEP not knowing something then they aren’t the “bad guy” for continuing their actions.

        I think arrogance is another thing that can preclude this “absorbtion.” So they DO hear a refusal (for instnace), but deem it non-present. Not entirely sure how something is supposed to cease to exist despite it’s existANCE, but then maybe they have a variation of stupidity that is at work there?

  33. Hi Kate. Thank you for your support. I’m sorry for your friend. When you are at an all time low people can pressure you into making unwise choices. I’m glad she had you as a friend. At least with the knowledge you can glean from this site you have been able to support her. I hope she is OK soon and finds alternatives to help her. Women I know who’ve had hystos seem to age quickly and have so many problems afterwards.

    Hi Ada. I see from your posts to me you have had a really tough time over the past few years. It can’t have been easy. Are you better now? Your posts have been a great source of inspiration and comfort to me over the past few weeks. I wouldn’t like to think you are still suffering.
    I see you post comments on a number of sites. The more of us that do this the better.

    I have tried leaving comments on Jo’s trust forum but they do not want me on it. I also tried going on the NHS forum but the moderator keep blocking my posts there as well. I just put on that self screening kits were available and directed readers to ‘forwomenseyesonly.’ Hardly radical.

    I have felt a bit fragile over the past two days. When I tried explaining to my husband how I feel he said what are you going on about your last smear was five years ago and you’ve decided your not having any more. As if that was it. That it was finally sorted and I should move on now. But I keep dwelling on the past. One minute I get upset that they got away with hoodwinking me for so long the next I am raging with anger because I cannot get back at anyone. Faceless bureaucrats made the decision long ago that this should happen to me. How dare they!!! Its no better here than North Korea!!!

    I have also spent the last few days trying to find a no win no fee solicitor to take my case. No one is interested. I keep dreaming of getting a top solicitor and proving my case and getting hundreds of thousands in compensation.

    I’m going to spend the rest of the evening in front of the telly and relax with a glass of wine or two.

    Speak soon. xx.

    • Try saying to your husband: “Well, it’s not someone making their own decisions if some else is lying to them. Supposing someone decided to take liberties in this fashion & stick something up your ass a bunch of times?” Bet he changes his tune. Maybe mentioning that sometimes guys in jail might have a fetish for “playing doctor” & that someone can always say that it’s no issue because of the style of doing something strange to someone.

      Men tend to get taught bullshit from an early age & sometimes get entrenched in it. I think a lot of guys have a “that’s not a problem category” in their heads & it’s like items in a storage bin. This is like thinking “Well, a screwdriver is in the “tool category” not the “weapon category,” so it’s not an attack for someone to stab someone else with it.”

      • Something I forgot to add: Sometimes the point that this is how you would become informed of something that gets missed. A guy hears something & it doesn’t seep in that this is the fucking broadcast.

    • Linda –

      Never say die. Just keep sticking to it. There are women that need you to tell your story and there are the men that support these women that need you to tell your story. I applaud you for choosing to not jsut accept this abuse as something to “just get over”. As if you the event(s) never happened.

      • Another thought hit me after I posted. As a man I have an insight a few ladies may want to hear (or maybe not?) If you have noticed that your man tunes out or just acts like he seems to not care about your female health issues, I can explain why many do (and most would never admit it). Because thinking about what happens behind that closed door, especially if it is a male doc…has to be responded to in one way or the other, Completely and openly involved in all aspects (because this is the lady we love) or completely disconnect to avoid the hurt (because this is the lady we love). For me there is no in between. I have been on both sides here over the years, being completely involved and actively supportive is far better, but if it falls short of that, the complete disconnect is the only way to not go completely nuts.

  34. Hi Alex. You’re so funny. I love the way you put things. feel pretty down right now. Its nine o clock in the evening here. Didn’t think anyone would respond right now. Just needed to say hello to my friends. My hubs gone out with his mates for the evening.

    • Thanks, Linda. It’s quite a bit earlier here (I think it’s a 4-hour time difference).

      What eddie said is frequently true. Particularly the disconnecting part. The thing is that a lot of men don’t really know how to phrase things & I figure the best way to put words to something can be simply to describe it. Like how there is a presumption that extrapersonal activites (even if it’s just something at the level of grabbing her ass) is going to be a problem. Not a real common term, though.

      Then a guy gets to worrying that she’s going to get pissed off, like he’s trying to substitute (instead of support) her or that she is going to look at it like he’s concerned about his property (instead of someone he cares about).

      There’s the point that something might be a problematic methodology with something, even if it’s not imposed. Not knowing how to say that. There’s a lot of things that aren’t a normal interaction between you & someone you’re not “like that” with (whether recreationally or seriously). Doesn’t strictly have to be a forced situation to be an issue, but it can be hard to express something just being agaisnt the grain.

      Speaking of which, it can be hard to express there being an issue with something being against someone else’s grain. It’s not like you’re co-people or anything, but it is something that comes up. This is more or less where the brush off takes place. It’s almost or up to a “fuck her- she’s just stupid/she made her bed & she can lie in it” type of thinking.

      • Linda, these views might seem extreme but bear with me.
        Let’s say a child is being abused by ‘Uncle Bob’. The child instinctively knows that what this man is doing to them is bad. Uncle Bob may try and convince them that those instincts are wrong, that what they are doing is normal… and/or they will threaten the child to ensure that the victim suffers in silence.
        The medical system uses very similar tactics on women to ensure screening compliance. First off, the awareness campaigns run by both the NHS and charities aim at very young women, telling them blatant lies about the test itself and belittling our natural resistance to a violating procedure. It’s essentially a form of grooming.
        A resistant woman is then subjected to immense pressure by her healthcare providers to ‘do as she’s told’. Bullying and blackmail have become the norm in this arena. A non-compliant woman will be ridiculed and belittled, or have death waved in her face (‘Do you want to die from this disease? Leave your children without their mother’ etc. etc.)
        The system deprives us of the ability to make an informed choice and encourages disgraceful behaviour through it’s targets and rewards. The whole system is unethical and possibly even illegal. But those who make the laws are free to break them, eh?

        I guess the point I’m trying to make is simply this: You’ve been abused by the medical system and you have every damned right to feel angry. If the people around you are too dense to understand what’s going on, that’s their problem. The lawyers who refuse to help you, even though they know full well that such abuse goes on, are only proving how entrenched this abuse is. It’s just part of being a woman, apparently!
        I myself have had more than enough unpleasant experience with doctors, male and female, over the years. The last encounter I had with a Gynaecologist was such an awful, humiliating experience… I did actually feel that I’d been abused. I didn’t think it would be worthwhile making a complaint – as long as they’ve got those blasted chaperones there to protect them, you’ve got no chance. It’s depressing, but since I’m still incredibly angry about it all, there’s no way in hell anyone will ever take advantage of me like that again.

        Sorry for the ramble, but just wanted you to know that there are many women out there who’ve had awful experiences – all too often our feelings are brushed aside by people we confide in, which makes us doubt ourselves. I can’t say I’ve had much support from friends & family (boyfriend thinks I’m a fool for refusing smears)… although my best friend, with all the problems she’s had lately, is beginning to come around to my point of view.

        As for your posts on the NHS/Jo’s Trust forum… did you really expect the people who lie through their teeth about this ‘highly successful’ program to allow an informed woman on their boards? If you’re not a sheep, you’re not welcome in those clubs, I’m afraid.

      • You’ll find those who deliberately go out of their way to deceive women don’t have a comment section on their website, some papers don’t allow comments when they’re talking about cervical screening either. So they always have the last word and are never challenged.
        Censorship is breaking down though, more sites are letting our posts stay in place, unedited. The other infuriating thing are the “stories” used by Papscreen and others to scare women into screening. This is telling, if you can’t get over the line relying on the evidence, perhaps, this testing is not all it’s supposed to be. (it’s not)

        Often the “survivor” stories are quite clearly women who’ve been over-treated, they certainly did NOT have treatment for cc. I’ve read so many accounts from “survivors”…”a pap test saved my life, it came back with cancerous cells and the doctor took them off in his/her rooms”. This is a dead giveaway, ACTUAL cervical cancer is not treated in a doctor’s rooms, it requires either a cone biopsy or hysterectomy.
        These women have had “abnormal” cells removed and we know ALMOST ALL abnormal cells are harmless and never destined to become invasive cc, in fact, these cells (if they are indeed abnormal) often resolve themselves after the cervix heals, (after trauma – childbirth) when hormones settle, (menopause, pregnancy) when you’re older (young women and the maturing cervix) or when inflammation passes. (tampons, condoms)
        This is why we get scant real information because this program makes NO sense at all.

        You have every right to be angry, I’ve never had a pap test and I frequently feel angry, but a few years ago it turned into a calm and steely resolve, I’ve found this approach very effective when I’m dealing with doctors, politicians etc. Mind you….calmness was impossible for MANY years, it’s something that happened in my 50s. Some women may never get to that place, women who’ve been pap tested most of their lives, endured painful biopsies and “treatments”…some may have lost a baby after their damaged cervix failed etc. We all approach this subject as individuals with different life experiences, although the abuse dished out by this program is widespread, many women talk about the same experiences. (being treated disrespectfully, being coerced into testing, given no real information etc.)
        I think we have to go with our emotions, and at least today there’s an outlet, for decades there was nothing, women suffered and despaired in silence, total silence…if you dared complain you were mobbed, “you ungrateful woman, that pap test and biopsy probably saved your life!”.

  35. It is sick artickle. Working at ER. None of the doctors I know like to do it, only it they have to. Sorry for the person that wrote it, he needs help.

    • Take comfort Olivia…You are not alone, many people, especially women are fooled None of the doctors you work this let on that they like it…enjoy what they get to do. If they did, they would lose their livelihood and miss out on more opportunities.

    • Do these same people advertise their falures? Not for nothing, but self-recrimination & questioning the pedastal that they’re put on is not a very typical trait of medical personnel (at least not in America).

  36. I always wonder about doctors that do hypnosis…they say that a person will not do anything under hypnosis that they would not normally do…but if they are hypnotized to believe that they are under conditions that they would normally do like making love to a particular suggestion then it would be normal. Like this article there must be a massive can of worms here also because the patient may be hypnotized to like it…or forget it. My reasoning is because I have seen five stage hypnotists and I have known the people personally that had volunteered to be on stage and hypnotized. One example was a shy skinny lanky bookworm afraid of dating & he never dates who is also not attractive. He gets hypnotized on stage in front of many university students to make-out like wild animals with one of the most sought after gorgeous & talented female athletes. They almost had sex on stage going through the motions with clothes on and then made to suddenly FREEZE stiff not moving a muscle then again released to devour each other, and with all that HOT passion going on stage the other 8 victims appeared to not notice the couple at all in their crazy sexual frenzy. Then the two were told that their breathes & mouths tasted like foul poop. The audience went crazy as the two were mad about each other but actually retching & almost vomiting but still hot to try and make out. The whole time all 10 subjects had their eyes glazed-over like when you see a sleep walker with their eyes open. BUT HERE IN THIS PROFESSIONAL SITUATION YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW THESE STORIES BECAUSE THE HYPNOTIST CAN SUGGEST THEM TO FORGET OR LOVE COMING BACK FOR MORE THERAPY IN THE DOCTORS OFFICE. Some people are highly suggestive and susceptible to hypnosis. I watched a stage entertainer hypnotist sit with one of the most beautiful young women on campus before his show that day and I have never seen this beauty so captivated on campus like she was over this man. This campus beauty was one of the ten subjects on stage and for the entire show he whispered into her ear each time he was near her for the entire show. So naturally I wondered what he was saying and how it would play out on stage the suggestions he was making in this gorgeous young girls ears. BUT HE NEVER DID ANYTHING WITH HER ON STAGE…BUT AFTER THE SHOW HE ACTUALLY HAD TO KEEP HER FROM STRADDLING HIS LAP IN PUBLIC…this no one else seemed to notice…I always wondered from that day on what is the CAN OF WORMS HERE???

  37. I dont know where else to post this but im so madd right now. A girl I went to high school with just posted a card with a speculum on my face book feed, that read “If she don’t know what this is …. tha girl trifeling. in slang terms saying the girl is fool of stds. it made me sick. I really like the gril but I cant stand woman posting stuff like this its so ignorant. btw we are American and hear so many girls are pushed to have a gyn check up every year. she already ahs a couple of likes.

    • I’m sorry that happened Kleigh…that would make me mad too. You should’ve seen the looks on some of my co-workers faces when I told them I don’t get paps…but what was even better was the look on their faces when I told them EXACTLY what a pap does and doesn’t do, the real chances of getting CC and how it’s NOT required for bc or “required” period. And then there are some unfortunate, blind, naïve women who flat out never get it. Don’t worry sweety…we know better 😉 and btw I never have/never will see a speculum and I’m in a happy, monogamous, formerly virginal relationship with my beloved Eric- NO STDs! and if you need some good news to make you happy after the facebook bullsh*t I think he’s going to propose soon! I saw a big charge on our card that he told me “don’t worry about” and then something came in the mail that he showed to his family but wouldn’t let me see…i’m so excited!

    • Be Strong Kleigh. You are a very enlightened intelligent women. Why don’t you become a campaigner for women’s rights and become well known for you beliefs. That would show them.

    • Are you able to put a link to this website, or at least put some of the articles we have on here on your facebook page? It might open some of their eyes, and make them see they have been duped.

    • What do they think? That you won’t get an STD if someone sticks one of those between your legs? Why not just buy one & use it yourself, then?

      Plus, if she’s casting you as being of an unattractive condition for not having these things done to you, she’s obviously against you comporting your situation that way. It’s like a guy calling you a disease-ridden skank for not letting him “play doctor” on you.

      It also kind of presents causation a bit. Like someone gets all kinds of diseases by not getting these procedures done on them.

      Maybe you should post: “So I’ll get diseased if I don’t get probed? Yeah- I’ll bet I’m going to die if I don’t suck on the doctor’s parts, too.” Not for nothing, but you could always springboard off of that & mention how something of this nature as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack, that these actions do not work as advertised, and that one can’t really presume the best when there’s so many conflicts of interest (incentive bonuses for reaching target quotas, getting paid for additional treatments & follow-ups, and simply pervy thrills & or general malice- any of which can apply to women as well as men).

  38. Thanks for the incuragement. I went ahead and blocked her posts but remained friends. I didn’t feel like starting a war and I hate that men see that. A lot of men probly think its a law that girls have to have exams and paps. I will try to link the card. Its crazy how so many woman could be so brainwashed to think all of us have too or if we don’t have paps we must be crazy. And Emily congrats on ur ingagment and its great u have a man to stand by you.

  39. You all know what we went through before my doc wrote the Rx for Trovagene. When my husband p/u the kit, other doctors just “couldn’t understand” why I wouldn’t want to do pap. My husband respectfully but bluntly told them. No reply. I have not heard a peep from my doc since, and all meds have flowed. We’ve been treated as if heros by the office staff however.

    There’s a male gyn on Topix, he’s posting on ob-gyn forum regarding vaginal and why it’s so important to have pap threads. I blasted him. He’s fear mongering; claiming 300,000 die yearly… BTW he asked me not to give advice. Yeah, it motivated me to write 2 long posts explaining why I’m right and he’s wrong. I left nothing out and dared him to reply. All that info I learned here. My husband and I owe this place a lot of thanks. My last words to the male gyn, he’s from Mountain View CA, were to “scrape & fixate that on his slide and analyze it.”

    I so wish progress could be made and publicized in USA. However, a pharmacist knowing public policies I talk to say the money & prestige is so great, the doctors will fight it, speculum & tenaculum, to the end. It’s up to us to get the word out. Recently we spoke to an employee at a tv station. He got on this site, and Trovagene while on the phone w/us. People want change.

  40. Hey I haven’t ranted in a while, but found something worth ranting about on the subject of male gynecologists!

    It’s funny cause there’s an article written by a doctor out of Texas, I believe. He claims that gender choice in gynecology is sexism in the work place. The fact that more women’s health care practices are going to all female OB/GYN practice is also discrimination in the work place.

    Here’s the link, I’m tempted to respond but want to come up with a good one.,-md

    This a$$ hat is literally whining and complaining cause he was warned about women not wanting to see male gynecologists more these days and chose to go for that specialization anyway. Did he think the moment he got the degree in his hand the women would just instantly line up to see him when they wanted to turn him down in med school? He plays the “I’m too dumb to understand” card a lot. Tries to sum up his argument to women thinking men can’t emphasize when in reality even when women say that it’s a cover up usually for their true feelings. Which their gut feeling is telling them exactly what the article here is saying. You put yourself at risk to be taken advantage of in that situation.

    However, when women argue it as the truth that even “Yeah, not all men are pervs but their motivation to go against the grain in this situation is suspicious!” They always get a horrible back lash of comments telling them how silly, ridiculous and now due to idiot doctors like this Shawn Tassone guy… we’re now sexist because if we want to have a say in a man having a right to touch our bodies or not.

    His second wife is actually a gynecologist too as you see in his document (Wonder what happened with the first!?) she is ‘perplexed’ too as to why women will chose to see her over her husband at their private practice. I know there is a power trip of women in medicine, but considering power tripping young and old men all over the world rape, molest, and abuse females and get away with a slap on the hand, I’m gonna focus on more on making the doctor’s office I may need to go to for care a safer place for both me and my daughter! I’ll focus on the crazy bishes of medicine some other time!

    If you read between the lines he passively encourages not giving women a choice by law as it is sexual discrimination. Like one forum I read about a man in med school, it was on the student doctor network. He literally stated “I know it won’t matter after I graduate, but do women really not want to be seen by male providers in OB/GYN?” there are many male ob/gyn students I’ve read on message boards with that same mentality. The mentality of, “Once I graduate they’ll not easily be given the choice, so all is fine if I can make it through med school!”

    Something I read here confirms what I felt in my bones all along.

    Male students are more likely to want to perform pap and pelvic exams on unconscious women in the OR because they fear they will be rejected if asked if a woman wants to help them learn. If they fear being turned away for their gender as students in this particular branch of medicine…


    It’s like they really want the rapey perks of the profession more than they are focused on the women they supposedly want to help! I’m not sorry, call me sexist all you want, but till the day comes that Hugh Hefner is forced to hire male playboy bunnies because his business discriminating, is the day I’ll say a male ob/gyn is completely cool and acceptable!

    • The guy goes on for a fuck of a long time about a lot of information that boils down to him wanting to get picked in spite of not being picked.

      I think all that information is designed to swamp the mind & his military background might have something to do with that (in a regular fight it’s not too hard to hit a bunch of things at the same time or in rapid succession- there’s also the whole “shock & awe” type of thing).

      He seems to specifically want to have a lot of influence in women’s lives- like he want to do more things to the woman. Also, he seems to like the idea of having a lot of discretion over what takes place in her situation (when someone says “that’s what came down the pipes,” he wants to be the generator of that “what”).

      Doesn’t matter if he’s perplexed or not- that’s what they’re after & he’s not it. I imagine he wouldn’t give it a second thought if it were a high demand for MALE medical personnel in this field.

      In truth, it doesn’t make much sense to me why women would bother at all- given that American medicine is frequently pretty menacing- physically & financially. It doesn’t seem to occur to people that they might have a problem & just not have a solution- even if it looks like you do. I tried saying something along this line to my grandmother & it was like she couldn’t conceive of having a situation where a need doesn’t get fulfilled.

      Anyway, I think the guy saying he & his wife were both “perplexed” is trying to say that it’s some kind of “mental deformity” to go this road that he doesn’t like. Not exactly saying it’s stupid, but getting across the theory that it doesn’t make sense & someone that is a woman agrees. It’s like having approved credit or some shit.

    • It’s not discrimination, most countries have an exception in their laws to cover same gender intimate medical care or assistance. I can legally advertise for a female bra fitting specialist to work in my lingerie store, I’d just need to apply for an exemption, same thing with attendants in changing rooms at swimming pools etc.

      Women had NO choice for a LONG time, now we do, some male doctors and others don’t like that. Some don’t feel women should have a choice, they’re used to telling us what to do, how we should feel, doing as they please.
      I couldn’t care less about his arguments, “I’m not a pervert etc”…IT’S MY CHOICE!
      I don’t need to justify my choices to him, to his wife or anyone else.

      Consider how women were treated when we had no choice, too often the treatment amounted to “safe” abuse…committed by protected members of a boys club. When sexual abuse occurs in medicine, it’s almost always men, I’ve never heard of a female doctor being dealt with by the Medical Board or the Police for sexual assault etc. (It’s probably happened, but I’d argue it’s uncommon, possibly rare)

      These men don’t like the fact women now have a choice, well, tough, get over it. If women don’t want to see male doctors, they have every right to see the doctor of their choice.
      I also, have a female dentist and accountant, should I be forced to see male professionals?

      I’m amazed we haven’t seen more all-female colonoscopy or surgical teams, lots of demand there.
      I followed a thread on a US ob-gyn site a few years ago, women ask the doctors questions, the doctors post their responses. There was an exchange in the professionals only area, so we could read, but couldn’t comment.
      Several male gyns were commiserating the fact they weren’t getting “the young ones”. Some of their patients even had the temerity to ask them if they knew of a good female gyn for their daughter.
      One said he could always get a job in the military or in the Emergency Department where women had no choice, I thought that said a lot about the man and the doctor – he couldn’t care less about women and their wishes, it’s all about him, how can I force women to see me? Quite disgraceful…a doctor to be avoided at all costs.

    • So this male gyn and his doctor wife are ‘perplexed’ that some of her patients refuse to be seen by him simply because he is a man. I wouldn’t have thought that it was too difficult for either of them to understand that these female patients are just not comfortable with seeing a male doctor for extremely intimate and personal examinations. I would hazard a guess that these two highly educated people know this but either dismiss it as not worth considering or they choose not to acknowledge it. He argues that it is not always the case that a female doctor can be said to be more sympathetic to her patients by virtue of being female as she may not experience painful periods or have given birth herself, but I think he is missing the point. For many women, the fact that the doctor is female means that the doctor has, at the very least an understanding from personal experience of the female body and mind, as she has grown from a girl into a woman and experienced puberty, menstruation, sex and experienced what pelvic exams feel like both physically and psychologically in a way a man will never comprehend because he does not have a female body or mind.
      Also, for many women, the power balance between doctor and patient is disproportionate, particularly if the doctor is a man. Some male doctors do not understand how intimidating their presence is in a clinical setting, and is made even worse when the woman is devoid of her underwear in a vulnerable supine position waiting to be penetrated by an object or his fingers.
      He claims discrimination by employers because he is a man, but don’t market forces dictate whether all female practices are viable? Some women do not want any chance of being confronted by a male colleague of her regular doctor, be it when in labour or during her regular doctor’s absence. What would he propose to even out this ‘discrimination’? That women are given no choice in the gender of their gynaecologist or obstetrician? If so, then he truly cannot be said to care for women as he claims, if their psychological health means so little – in this case it can only be about his bank balance.

      • Great post. This point:

        “Also, for many women, the power balance between doctor and patient is disproportionate, particularly if the doctor is a man. Some male doctors do not understand how intimidating their presence is in a clinical setting, and is made even worse when the woman is devoid of her underwear in a vulnerable supine position waiting to be penetrated by an object or his fingers.”

        Is either dismissed or simply ignored, The fact that it is proves how narcissistic, arrogant and selfish too many doctors are.

      • I think that a lot of medical personnel scoff at things like “psychological health” or anything like that. Any non-physical injuries they see as a free shot or as something unimportant. The thing is that physical injuries are an “issue.” So where do they get off disregarding things like that?

        The whole thing is that an injury is unsatisfactory condition. Is their point that problems aren’t an issue, only problems are an issue?!

        Not that I’m giving them the room to decide what’s a problem based on what they want to elect themselves culpable for, of course.

  41. “Section 30(2) provides some examples of ‘genuine occupational requirements’, including dramatic performances or entertainment where a role requires a person of the relevant sex,[23] positions involving fitting clothing[24] or conducting searches of clothing or bodies,[25] positions that require entry of lavatories used by members of one sex while in use[26] or areas where people of one sex will be in a state of undress[27] and positions requiring a person to live on premises with persons of a particular sex where there are no reasonable alternatives.[28]”

    “Clinics in Sweden have banned the practice of women patients requesting female gynecologists out of concern that it discriminates against male doctors. According to UPI, clinics in Skane, Halland, Blekinge and Kronberg will now assign patients to doctors regardless of the gynecologist’s gender.
    Exceptions will be made for patients who have been victims of sexual assault, or women who come from traditional cultures that frown on such exams being conducted by men.”

    I’ve heard this was not really about discrimination, but more about increasing requests for female doctors (who were very busy) while male doctors were under-utilized. I couldn’t disagree more, no woman should be forced to see a male doctor or go without medical care. I suspect a lot of Swedish women will seek private care in another country or they’ll create a religious belief which outlaws the use of male doctors.

    • RE Sweden: It’ll be like halloween there. Women will buy burkas just for the obgyn visit. The muslims there will really flare up over that. Sweden has become the rape capitol of the world. Women there dye their hair dark; blonds have all been raped. That may sound crazy but it’s all true. In Sweden’s stupid very liberal court system, muslims will show up, tell the judge that they thought the woman wanted 6 men to have sex with her…and the judge will buy it and let them go. This is what is going on there. Another thing, no doubt the male gynos got tired of seeing old women while the young ones were seeking female practitioners. Guess they can’t get excited about their jobs anymore…

      The ER story I’d like to read. Don’t know why, but I’m not able to see most of the documents you all are commenting about.

      Alex & other men are right about men involuntarily disconnecting regarding the gyn. My husbands adds: It begins in the house they grow up in. Mom may hammer in a nasty way it’s none of their business, and if they ask they are some kind of pervert. Nurses & the doctors’ offices reinforce this by thinking they “need to protect” the woman and doctor from the husband/boyfriend or she can’t freely discuss nor access her care. He’ll ask too many questions, want to watch an intimate exam over the doctor’s shoulder, or get angry if she feels pain.

      This is so sick. One, I want my husband to look over the doctor’s shoulder. We’ve learned (before Trovagene) that this was my safety net. Consider Dr Abrams taking all his pictures while hiding behind the tent; or women feeling an exam done w/o gloves. My husband is 50% of my life and vice-versa. I want him as my advocate and to ask questions as I tense up & go quiet. We protect each other from exam room molesting. We’re each other’s witnesses. In past years, I’ve had literally to fight with a nurse, telling her it was him going in with me or no exam. Meanwhile, bitch nurse excludes another man from his wife’s ongoing pregnancy check up. [wonder if the generated tension contributed to divorce or ended procreation…] Most importantly, my husband smartly stopped a former gyn from doing a second endometrial biopsy on me. The doc lied to me a second time about felt pain, no informed consent given (something my husband said to doc in stopping it), and he stopped two other unnecessary pelvic exams earlier on in our marriage which I’ve written about here.

      He agrees wholeheartedly with the guys here too. Men, when scolded for trying and forcefully excluded from gyn offices, have no choice but to disconnect entirely. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s some kind of argument and a desire to make love to reconnect asap it’s over. This is emotional pain. It’s traumatic. It took decades to reverse the sick, warped, and stupid notion of kicking men out of the delivery room when many other men are poking around.

      The real disease is how intimate women’s care is being carried out. Mentally harmful and physically traumatic, from so-called unnecessary routine exams to childbirth. Doctors treat this natural process as a disease and just look, the whole thing has gone epidemic. Doctors cannot see the treatment or cure anymore than a narcissistic asshole can see the forest through the trees. No doubt all of them wonder how women made it through life w/o them.

      What bothers me most however, is seeing a woman openly adopt these monsteristic treatment regimens on other women. As if a female doctor knows whether or not the pain is tolerable or mentally acceptable. My husband discussed my bad experiences with my internist two months ago. She replied, openly discussing with my husband her IUD experiences. She: “I know there’s gonna be sharp, horrible pains…lasting a few minutes.” “And then it’s over,” she purses her lips exhaling a sigh of relief. Sure. We later talked, If she relives it when talking to my hubby, it must’ve been bad. Glad I never picked that. However, just b/c she’s educated and knows what to expect, imagine the unsuspecting, unknowing, uninformed patient laying there when her cervix is violated by the tenaculum, then the uterine sound, and finally the IUD insertion. That woman will unload a lot of tension onto her husband when she returns home.

      I’m going to read the letter from the TX doctor. Interesting comments made however from people here. The guy has a military background? Very telling. He was looking forward to a stream of women coming to him, aka his own boot camp. He expects and looks forward to flaunting his authority over them, receiving applause for his expert advice & brave medical cures. He wanted to see them be a “trooper” and take their pain like he did–being responsible. And to exclude as many men or bully them as much as possible while he “took over” “their” vagina. What gets me, is every gyn makes it mandatory that he do pap and examine his own female employees. This leads to domination in the work place, and cheating in marriage. Is that abnormal power or what?! As if this isn’t creepy enough.

      Very telling he’s on a second marriage. Feel sorry for both, the ex & present wife. She’s along for the ride in this marriage. He’s not a partner. He’s her boss. And he’s very jealous. Frankly, I feel sorry for him. HIs upbringing. He needs so much therapy it would be like a remanufacture of his psyche. If he were made to be decent by our standards, he would probably make a good doctor as I believe part of his gripe is that nobody wants to challenge his expertise–it hurts his feelings–the little boy and young man in him. He desperately seeks validation. Validation his wife has. He just can’t understand why, and if told so he’d disagree claiming something else. Can’t wait to read to see if I’m right.

      • Cat&Mouse – Great points. Check out this stream. I entered and ticked off the young stud doctors and their ridiculous narcissism, they closed the stream. My name (after registering) was Bi Polar Bear. – our nickname for me as I act as her real advocate. These idiots not only defend this obvious rape, they do it arrogantly as if their schooling rights trumps a woman’s right to her own body and informed consent, especially in the case where you unluckily ended up at a teaching hospital, and even more appalling is the comments that some poor lady that is utilizing a teaching hospitals social services OWES the system her body as a rape test dummy,

        I think I jumped in on page 7…it only took one page of responses before they had to tuck tail and hide. This is such an example of how little the medical establishment thinks of their “patients” …the kicker these idiots are just students (mostly).

      • Eddie, I owe you a response from earlier. I’ll get back later and finish things. Thank you for getting on the SDN site speaking up for us. Here it is, plain and simple, these elitists think they have the right to molest. Away from everybody including our advocates, out of sight, no objectivity, no way to cry out. It reeeally bothers me that our minds know what’s happening, our bodies feel it, if we orgasm or are put into extreme pain as our genitals in every place are mashed & stretched & repeatedly raped. A gang fuck rape by idiots wearing scrubs. Men and women. So many dispute me that women molest; but I know it happens. And here’s where it begins.

        Sanctioned, accepted, encouraged. This cannot happen at our homes and our husbands would never treat us this way. We are more or less like an animal that’s hit by a car for how our abdomens are mish-mashed. What excuses are told to us afterward? In recovery room & in our hospital rooms, or post-op office visits?! Doctors wonder why some patients seek blood when they sue. What happens later in our minds when our husbands want to touch us and explore?

        We are another step closer to knowing why doctors & nurses dread becoming patients in their own operating rooms. One of our best friends is an anesthesiologist. We’re gonna have a talk soon. We are disappointed that we’ve had to discover things, such as what happens during prepping and after surgery before you wake up, on our own w/o him openly informing us. Yeah, med school really changes them. Not for the better though. Thank you again Eddie.

      • Has any one ever thought that maybe a abdomenal ultra sound of some sort should be a lot less invasive and more accurate for woman that actually have gyn problems. Rather than penetrate woman’s vaginas.

      • It would make more sense- at the very least, it might actually indicate some kind of deformity instead of just saying it would detect something when it wouldn’t.

        Ever notice how there’s so many things done “for” something that doesn’t work that way? It’s like tagging an effort & that being considered enough (at least by the people doing it). Never mind the action or the effect, just the purported direction of intent.

  43. Interesting after thought. My female internist was the happiest I’ve ever seen her, thanking us & my husband personally for providing her the Trovagene information. She, like so many others, had no idea pap alternatives even existed. She: “This is good. I have patients who would like this. I’m really glad to have it.” We have set out to educate doctors & patients alike. So far, about 85% receptive. We invite everybody to join us.

      • Is this similar to the prostate urine test…in that you can gain the same findings with just a urine sample, instead of the invasive test normally pushed upon patients?

      • RE Trovagene. [for how I’ve talked them up on my positive experience; it’d be nice if they’d hire me to rep them] For all I know, the PSA (prostate specific antigen) is a blood test that checks to see the immune system reaction to “possibly” cancerous cells in the prostate. Note how I phrase this. A man is referred for further diagnosis, biopsy, [read this process…yikes! shoe in the other foot is just as nasty] when the number is = or >4.

        Trovagene is based on a woman’s first morning urine. It uses both PCR and antibodies. Which is why it has a 90+% accuracy. However, I’m not aware of a prostate test which utilizes urine.

        Would somebody please direct me to, or refer the story about the ER doctor my way? Thanks in advance.

        I reviewed the “research thesis” gyn article authored by Dr Shawn Tassone of TX, claiming discrimination against male practitioners. This narcissist claims that the docs he went to med school, clinic rotations, and board interviews with male and female who dressed alike in blue scrubs, were all treated equally and acted same toward each other.

        Then he whines about the courts and his divorce; how his ex-wife controls all power and decisions. On this alone I agree. From then on, he’s expecting us to jump to our feet agreeing that vaginas, oranges, and apples are all alike. Care to guess if he’s ever “practiced” on an anesthetized woman? Ever needed to masturbate after an exam or take his wife on an exam table? Does he pressure staff to allow him to pap them? [makes me ill knowing how much that happens]

        The whining increases describing how he’s treated on job interviews, how prospective practices will pick any female over him, and how even his wife sympathizes with him. “Mysteriously”, he waxes how could women possibly reject his expertise. A woman would deliberately pick another woman for child birth & bad menstrual issues over him. WE are preventing him from saving our lives & delivering our babies. So self-absorbed. Now here’s the warped reasoning…

        The doctor may not have birthed her own kids, and may not have as bad cramps…so he warrants the patient should be trying him. He provides references like his brilliance in elucidating all of us should be NY Times front page material. He plays the victim well. He’s his own bitch.

        Not once does this arrogant asshole award winner say he’s sympathetic to a woman’s pain and difficulties quoting his learned experiences from two marriages. He cannot say he would go out of his way to change gynecology by treating women, and their partners or husbands respectfully. Like by encouraging openness & transparency during his exams. Promising to keep his fingers out of young asymptomatic women. Dumping the pap in favor of alternatives. Using disposable speculums instead of reusable cold steel. Promising to clean his exam rooms as dentists are required. Putting informed consent and pain management first before treatments. Oh, could we ever draw him a list…

        In fairness I understand his gripe about predisposed notions. His own mind set warrants this cautionary label however. Dr Tassone is aloof, disconnected from reality such the focus on how only his perceptions matter. He’s uninterested in caring for women, respecting our partners, or offering help vs invading us on every level. If somebody were to conduct a brain scan, they’d have to insert a speculum in his rectum and dilate it to the maximum settings possible. And don’t ever say to him he’s wearing a lab coat. It’s a white cape.

    • I agree that all of this is crazy. Before I was old enough to understand this, I knew that something was wrong and unnecessary about pelvic exams. First and foremost, they cannot detect anything unless it has something to do with the cervix. Next, if a woman is a virgin, doctors nearly try to force her to get a pelvic exam even though there is no reason for it. A woman cannot get HPV unless there is penetration, so their three sizes too large speculums actually puts her at more risk for HPV than if the virgin never gets the exam.

      I’ve had experiences from doctors chasing me around the school to try to give me a pelvic exam at ten years old, doctors refusing to treat me for other injuries (such as broken bones) until I agree to a pelvic exam, and lesbian nurses constantly calling me on the phone after their eyes lit up at finding that I was a virgin at 25+ and trying to convince me that I could have HPV from kissing in order to make me agree to a pelvic exam – despite my religious beliefs.

      Also, from friends, I receive the old speech about “being a virgin is mental, not physical”… If this is true, why do detectives use evidence of “broken hymen tissue” as admissible in court for r@pe cases? Also, in other culture, pelvic exams are not even allowed until after marriage. Yes, the hymen can be broken in other ways, but if we are real with ourselves, MOST women have an intact hymen until they have s3x – everything else is just rumored as far as falling, etc. These things may or may not damage the hymen.

      Nevertheless, I am frustrated because I am having trouble finding a doctor that will do an ultrasound without a pelvic examination, even though most doctors do an ultrasound anyway – after the unnecessary pelvic exam. Basically, their attitude is “If I can’t shove my hands up your virginal v@gina and r@pe you with my hands and speculum because I’m jealous that you have the self-control to save yourself until marriage and most people don’t – then I am not treating you at all”… That is a very sick and chauvinistic attitude.

      • I couldn’t agree with you more…I was a virgin until 20 and now my beloved eric and I have only slept with each other I get soooo sick of everyone trying to tell me how much I “need” to see a gyno when I- and every other doctor out there- know damn good and well that there is no chance of me having hpv which causes 95% of cc AND that a VE is all but useless to find anything in the ovaries/uterus but no no they still insist I “need” one

        And I too have experienced doctors trying to force their way into my body as a teen. at 17 when I got an infection after being on abx for strep when my dad took me to the ER the dr (male dr I might add) insisted I have an exam “just to make sure”. When I refused stating that I was a virgin and I just needed a script for antifungal he became quite angry and left the room in a huff to “check on another patient” so I could “decide if I wanted help or not”. The female nurse was trying to convince me and said “Oh don’t worry, we won’t tell your parents youre not a virgin.” I was extremely offended and thoroughly disgusted by that remark. all I could think was “If I’m not even ready to let a man I love touch me in a pleasurable way then what the f*ck makes you think I want some creepy dr who doesn’t even care about me shoving his fingers and tools in with no result other than causing me pain and trauma?!?!” Wheres the f*cking logic there???

        I ended up having my dad just take me to walmart and i got some monistat. Even then I knew it was pointless and just plain wrong to do that to a girl/woman. and you know what I hate the most? The assumption that they have the right to do whatever they want with a persons body. the way they demand our respect and utter obedience. No one demands respect from me- they earn it. My body is not a f*cking playground for drs- none of us are. They need to wake up and realize that

      • What do you mean “chasing you around the school”? Were they literally chasing you?

        I noticed that your name on here is “Keepitprivate,” and I’m not trying to be oblivious- but I’m looking to educate myself better on possible risks. This is actually a big part of why I’m looking to start a family in a different country (there’s always the problem of someone trying to “crawl into someone else’s skin” & people that want to do that figuratively tend to make literal attempts).

        Not the place I’d like to do the whole “wife & kids” thing. Plus the food’s screwed-with, every damn thing is illegal (or engaged regardless), and it’s generally a “live to work” culture.

      • Keepitprivate
        Welcome to the forum. You make some great points, it really is a weird and dysfunctional system when girls and women can be bullied into a pelvic exam when they present with a broken bone!
        Just wondered why you want an abdominal ultrasound, none of my business, but I’ve heard some American women on health forums talking about an ultrasound in place of the routine pelvic exam. The pelvic exam and ultrasound, abdominal or vaginal, are not recommended, unless you have symptoms. I think with all the lies and hype some women are now afraid to let go of the routine pelvic exam, so are choosing to replace an unnecessary exam with an unnecessary ultrasound.
        I’d never permit a routine ultrasound, it might pick up something harmless and lead to even more excess.
        My advice: excess and non-evidence based tests and exams simply expose us to risk, there is no such thing as a simple test or exam, they can all lead to some ugly places, like day procedure and even surgery.

  44. I’m so glad I found this forum. It amazes me there is no evadence to back up seeing a gyn when your healthy. None of these intrusive exams made since to me. It blows me away there seems to be no logic behindtelling all woman to have them. They act like they know my body better than I do. And to try to force and scare woman is outrageous. How in the world do all these healthy woman who think they need to go to a gyn ever year not see that there no healthier than before the exam? I know of no one that has binnefit from going.

    • Anonymous, if you happen to be a horny lesbian yourself, I reckon you two will get along just fine!
      I think one of my previous docs was one such person, I’m glad to be shot of her, although my husband has stayed with her, as she has no interest in his body, and his appointments usually last 2 minutes at the most, which suits him very well. Come to think of it, I’ve heard other men say much the same thing, that she is very brief and concise with their appointments…

  45. I’ve read this forum with great interest and opinions seem to vary depending upon which side you’re on. I’m on both sides. I’ve been the female patient and am a Registered Nurse. First and foremost medicine runs like the military. Things are done a certain way as to regulate and streamline the process. Doctors/nurses do not appreciate a person who does not comply with the system. People need to take responsibility for their own health care. With the internet there is little excuse for not boning up on a condition. If the purpose of a PAP smear is to test for cervical cancer and you’ve had your uterus/cervix removed why would a person agree to have one done post hysterectomy? Especially annually? Caveat emptor! As an RN I am not a fan of having a spouse in the examination room. Few things are more medically annoying than asking a patient a question and having the spouse answer. These questions – the ones directed to the patient – allow the clinician (doctor/nurse) the opportunity to assess the patient’s understanding of the disease process – or whatever brought them to the clinician in the first place. It’s important to know as much as possible about the patient as possible. We already know the medicine portion what we want to know is the patient’s fears, concerns, the ability to understand/their level of comprehension, their understanding of the disease process and their ability to make an informed decision. If the spouse answers we don’t get this information. Medicine should be holistic, not purely science.

    I know from 43 years of nursing that a woman will tell a practitioner things when they are alone with the clinician that they would never bring up if the spouse is in the exam room. I realize some women feel their spouse is there to protect them from the evil physician who will subject them to needless invasive exams. What this says to me is that the woman is not versed or has not prepared herself and needs someone else to speak for them. Women stand up for yourselves. Be a wise, informed consumer of healthcare. Know your rights. I don’t expect those outside of the medical profession to be as knowledgable as doctors or nurses, but with some ‘homework’ they should have an idea of what questions to ask and if something does not sound right, refuse the procedure and seek a second opinion.

    • Well, that concept of “buyer beware” is (theorectically) something a person wouldn’t have to worry about with medical personnel- seeing as they wouldn’t be looking to scam/prey on patients/clients. The reality is different than their certification, however.

      This is true with expertise, as well. This is proven by all these pills & surgical implants & such that aren’t safe, yet it’s never the doctor’s fault. Either this is bullshit or they don’t actually know. They might HAVE information & that information may or may not be true, but someone would go on it if they trusted these people. Of course, someone that doesn’t trust it is declared/treated like an idiot. They are worked against, at the bare minimum.

      I’ve noticed & not just with medical personnel, that there’s a situation of “intellectual negation.” It’s the pattern of “What comes from me is an “A” & what comes from someone else is a “B” at best, so I override them.” That this override comes with superiority- a sense of which (whether accurate or not) is a treasured addiction.

      Medicine DOES definitely have similarities to the military. I notice that they’ll stick to a course of action, even if it fucks-up the goal. I’ve noticed a very “doctrine bound” style (which is apparently a military term). I’ve noticed a kind of unofficial mentality of “if you can’t fire me & you can’t kill me, I don’t care what you have to say & I don’t see you as an influence- even in your own life.” I’ve noticed that refusals aren’t always effective, especially when someone thinks they’re better than the one doing the refusing & it excites their ego to contradict it. Oddly, enough- power can go with momentum as well as against it, or even be aggressively neutral.

      Granted, some of this is second-hand information, but then all evidence is anecdotal (even if someone sees it for themselves, because it’s an anecdote when they tell someone about it). I figure a man gets taken more seriously than a woman usually does in a medical setting. I’m left to wonder what difference a woman in that situation is going to make if she acts the same way. Especially since most of the time, what one woman does to another is not seen as an attack. Sometimes it’s true with men, as well- although considerably less so. No one would say: “Oh, what that Catholic priests did to those young boys was fine because they were all male.”

    • Medical practitioners may not want the spouse, family member or friend in the examination room accompanying the patient, but it should be entirely up to the patient to decide who should be there and what should be happening in that room. The health care system is there not for the doctors’/nurses’ convenience, it is there to provide service to the patients, and it is paid for by the patients (directly or via taxes). So it must be run to the patients’ satisfaction.

      What we have unfortunately, is the system that is set up and run to streamline the conveyor belt, maximise the profits, minimise the expenses, allow governments to control people’s private lives, and create a regulated environment for the medical institutions to make maximum money with minimal risk to be sued. The benefits of each individual patient are secondary, if there at all. Doctor knows best, the patient must do as they are told. That’s what the majority of readers of this web site have problems with.

      • I agree with Alex and Alice totally.

        To you RN, sorry, we are so sorry, we are extremely sorry, very sorry, terribly sorry, god we’re so sorry, so fu#^*ng sorry, it annoys you when we take someone in to the rape lounge with us.

        They come in to speak up for us, or advocate, or god forbid there is an attempted rape that they stop. If you don’t want them to say anything or answer any of the question you ask us, why don’t you practice nurses learn how to ram a speculum down their throats.

        I have been in teaching for many years. A few rotten apples have abused children but the whole profession is in dispute. The problem is every one in the staffroom is lovely, they eat charity cakes, they attent child welfare talks and they laugh and chat like regular people but they hide terrible thoughts. Similarly we have this problem with doctors and nurses.

        If you have children then you know you don’t trust other adults 100% yet you expect us to surrender our private parts to just about anyone and everyone.

    • The problem is that women here do exactly as you say of standing up ourselves and knowing our rights and doing research and what happens some of us get denied unrelated medical care because we are declining unrelated cancer screenings. Women seek medical treatment for a sprained ankle and leave untreated because they won’t submit to a pap test right then and there. As for boning up on a condition, I don’t know about others but in my experience Dr’s dismiss what you say even if it is right. Bringing our partners into the exam room is part of taking charge of our healthcare. Part of it is to have another set of ears to remember what is said and to remember questions to ask and part of it is also protection. I’ve heard stories of the Dr believing the woman more about what’s going on and staying on topic instead of focusing on an unrelated pap test when her husband is with her. This isn’t about not taking charge and doing our research and knowing our rights. It’s about a medical profession that focuses on bikini medicine and views women as not being able to make informed decisions and gets away with coercion. Now be a good girl and have the pap smear.

    • Dear RN (If that’s even what you are!),

      1.) “First and foremost medicine runs like the military.”

      I don’t remember signing up for the military, so I don’t think I want to be treated like it.

      2.) “Doctors/nurses do not appreciate a person who does not comply with the system.”

      I’m not the one getting paid here, all I want is some damn easily accessible birth control! Three doctors so far have started trying to hold it hostage unless I get the exam, I even asked to sign a waiver and they wouldn’t give it up. Even if I’ve slept with every man and woman in the world it should not be grounds for pressuring a pap exam, it goes back to the twisted obsession with female purity and it is BS. I don’t care how risk I am for cervical cancer, I don’t want the friggin test, they can take some blood and be happy with it, give me my birth control and let me be on my way. I’ll sign a waiver if I have to since they worry about getting sued for not doing the stupid pap.

      3.) “As an RN I am not a fan of having a spouse in the examination room.”

      Tough shit, deal with it! Where were the adamant white knights when I actually HAD a man who was abusive? By bringing him in the room I have a witness of how I was treated, he doesn’t even talk unless I give him the que that I am no longer comfortable with the way the care giver is treating me. So don’t worry, he isn’t controlling me, I bring him to bodyguard me. But maybe an attack dog would suit you better, I mean it can’t talk and interrupt, right? Don’t pull the BS about the spouse speaking up for the woman that isn’t your worry and it’s a crappy excuse. Have you seen the latest video of how a cop treated a female student in South Carolina? I saw the early video before the mass media decided to cut out part of it to make the cop look like he was in the right. The cop would have only gotten a pat on the hand if so many other students hadn’t recorded it, and doctors get the same authority. Why do you think hospitals are starting to ban women in child birth from filming their own birth, cause they may be caught in the act doing something they damn well know wasn’t right. So many medical professionals have been discovered to be abusive because of such recordings. So, maybe I’ll just bring my own spy cam into the doctor’s office, that works better than my spouse, right?

      4.) “Medicine should be holistic, not purely science.”

      It’s not holistic when you have an asshole bullying you into an exam you don’t want, no matter how necessary they feel it is. Doesn’t matter if you’re uncomfortable with their gender, with the exam in general, don’t believe in it or any other reason why, they’re gonna smile and feign compassion, or just draw into complete apathy and parrot that you need the exam after you’re done trying to communicate with them that you do not want it, as if you said nothing at all.

      5.) “What this says to me is that the woman is not versed or has not prepared herself and needs someone else to speak for them.”

      Cause this didn’t sound arrogant at all! I have heard the whole lecture about cervical cancer so many times I could puke. I’ve read it so many times on other sites I’ve looked up, I want to gouge my eyes with a fork. You sound like one of those idiots that constantly bother people about smoking every visit to the office. Like if they knew they’d magically kick the addiction, because they must not know the risks and never think of quitting. It can’t be because quitting is hard, and they kick themselves often for smoking and can’t seem to get rid of the habit even with all the stupid pamphlets and quit-line crap.

      I am well aware of the risks of cervical cancer, as well as breast cancer. Thing is even if I got a positive test what would happen then? More tests? More invasive things? I won’t even take the pap exam what makes you think I’d actually seek treatment even if I knew I had it. At this point I’m willing to die for my right to not be fondled by a bunch of med students while under anesthesia, cause they can’t seem to get patients to help them practice well-woman exams for what ever reason the patients have that they obviously don’t want to listen to. I mean it’s not like they’ll let me have an advocate not employed by the hospital to speak for me while I am sedated, versed, and then put under. Oh wait, is that what you meant by “Versed” that creepy sedative that makes patients eerily compliant? No, certainly you must mean that the patients just aren’t educated!

      I learned about Versed here, btw.

      6.) “Know your rights.”

      They don’t clearly post these things to all patients, and finding your rights in any given situation is incredibly difficult without a lawyer to translate, I had a family doctor try to tell me it’s illegal to give birth at home. Weather she believed that, or knew it wasn’t true and wanted to scare me, idk, but I know damn well it isn’t illegal! Medical care facilities also like to enact their own special policies that mean patients agree to not have certain rights if the doctors see fit, in order to get care. Example: Four point restraints, and pushing paps onto women with an emergency situation such as an appendix needing to be removed. To get care from them is to agree, and personally I think consent to treat forms before a treatment is even called for are a bunch of horse crap too, it’s like getting slapped with an ultimatum before you even get any care when they’ve yet to find the problem (True emergency situations excluded from this, and no childbirth is not a true emergency, it’s a natural process). Such forms should only be presented as needed, and not automatically as a safety blanket allowing physicians to act as they please and not get sued.

      The truth is, if you can’t find the information and don’t know your rights (Cause I learned pregnant women have practically NONE!) then you have no rights.

      I don’t care how annoyed you are about spouses, I don’t care how anything irritates you as an RN, you get paid, the patient doesn’t. Medicine is supposed to be a service, not some mandated, one size fits all, doctor’s way or the highway routine. A second opinion isn’t always easy either because doctors like to protect other doctors, also that incentive pay is too good to pass up by then next one either obviously. We’ll see how my fourth attempt to get birth control without the exam, goes… it’d be my fourth opinion after all, since the second and third felt like holding it hostage. I mean, cause getting second opinions help so much especially when options are limited!

      An unprepared, non-versed, female patient whose fed up with the ‘evil physician’!

    • First and foremost, does the educational “institution” that bestowed your BS degree also awarded you a “b@**” (moderated) minor? It should have. I come from a family employed in the medical field. I am disabled. I’ve been to over 75 doctor offices, numerous hospitals and outpatient clinics, and I feel I’m at least equally qualified to discuss this from my perspective. Outside looking in, instead of your defensive inside looking out.
      Your education, no, I mean brainwashing makes you buy-in to the same protocols that doctors have. Same god complexes. When you put on that white coat, look out world.
      What do I know? A relative working at a local CA hospital took all her nurse gf’s into her ICU so they could play “erector set” with an old man’s penis implant. Up, down, repeat, giggle. When asked why, what about respect, etc? She bragged that he didn’t know what was going on, and if he did, he probably enjoyed it.
      Numerous times I’ve heard these same “professional” woman gossiping about breasts, (“tits,” their preferred word) and penis’. A black man with his uncircumcised penis caught in his pant’s zipper? Big joke that a urologist had to be called in for a midnight circumcism.
      My own experiences? A man very close to me was given a “complimentary” hand job by four women doing his prep prior to hernia surgery. Considering his window incision was his belly button and the two ports were one each side, maybe you can explain why they felt the need to venture/explore so far “south” and even pick up and feel his scrotum. The nurse messaged him to erection. Another nurse dropped the prep sterilizing pad twice (once on the floor) but only joked about the “three-second rule” and never did open a new clean pad to continue painting the prep goo on his abdomen. Can you say risk for flesh eating bacteria? Death?
      Since he did his own prep shaving at home, more questions come ‘up” as to why his penis was touched to begin with. However, as a parting shot, the gang of four females made one last joke. One held his penis, took her finger and jokingly placed an imaginary post-it note on top of his erect penis, while stroking the bottom twice. They joked at how stiff it became.
      However, when he woke up and gave them the finger, they all quietly left. He was “put under” via his IV less than a minute later.
      Tell me they were hoping to destroy his memory.
      I’ve had my own horrors. A nurse drugged me with a hypnotic post op. Then, in front of my husband, she threatened to catheterize me if I didn’t urinate by a certain time. She took my inaudible grunts as valid yes/no statements.
      You want to get into the gynecologist’s office? Or any doctor’s office?
      First thing I tell a doctor/nurse, as does my husband, is my “spouse” is here to fill in the blanks as I’m nervous and really don’t want to discuss things relevant to my condition. I may forget important things because I want to get out of here as fast as I can. Doctor doesn’t like that? Too fucking bad.
      I’ve heard the canned phrase of the singled out and divided female patient made naked and suddenly talking to the doctor story many times. So many times I know it’s also BS.
      My husband is there, as I’m there for him, to prevent abuse. To ensure we receive “informed consent.” That means you don’t snow the patient into consenting for a procedure that is extremely painful. As has happened to me. Husband protected me the second time it was about to happen however.
      Husband has protected me from two pelvic exams where the doctor had singled me out because he liked my looks. How do I know? Hubby caught him coming out to look at me before telling the assistant he wanted her to “prep for full exam” for a yeast infection due to antibiotic therapy. Oh, you gonna say that’s a real good reason for an exam? When doc saw hubby accompanying me down the hall–after he and I told the nurse who tried to physically block him out that he would be present for the exam–doc suddenly and quickly changed the smirk on his face to something serious, wrote the Rx I needed, and stepped into another exam room as fast as he could. He had seen my husband watching him look at me.
      How about a proven crooked orthopedic surgeon who wanted to operate on my neck? Part of his claimed pre-op physical consisted of a full pelvic exam. Really? Hubby said NO.
      Where was nurse? Where was chaperone? Where was the advocate for me? If it not for my husband—at least twice I’d have been raped under medical guise. Or had photos of my genitals taken.
      Another physician assistant asked me over and over if I’d had been doing threesomes. His internal exam-no-lets call that a tour, took nearly a minute.
      You nurses are right comparing medical care to the military. A military dictatorship where nobody else has rights. What you call informed consent means just enough to get us to give permission. What happens next, including our suffering, is another thing.
      A very good friend of ours is a doctor. Med school turned him into an egotistical god complexed liar about what goes on behind those doors.
      I hope you are sued and sued often. What is said after each large verdict?
      They didn’t ask questions. The patient didn’t bring a friend, spouse, or advocate in to the room so things would be understood. Whine, whine.
      We are just learning about informed consent.
      I hope the pelvic exam and pap is the first to be eliminated from protocols as we flex our informed consent.
      I do not agree with Medical Patient Modesty regarding sexually segregated medical care. More often than not, extreme sexual abuse happens in an environment where an all-female team is in total control as I’ve documented. Opposite sexes police each other.
      Females are almost impossible to prosecute in this type of situation.
      The most serious abuses of any type occur in the delivery room. And we wonder why there’s so much divorce once children are born. Fathers are treated like shit between the first obstetrical office visit and leaving the hospital after delivery.
      The pap is definitely used as a weapon, and holds birth control plus hormone replacement hostage. So docs get paid a decent office visit fee; so they can cling to a reason to get women naked on command.

    • In response to the RN- A family member had a hysterectomy over 40 years ago and she has been told to have pap smears every year since then and still does. Why? Because he doctor is telling her to as it is a “necessary” yearly exam just because she is female. Or more like because it’s a way for doctors to have continuous cash flow while also getting their rocks off examining women’s genitals.

      Last year when I went to walk-in clinic for tendon pain in forearm from a gym injury the male doctor would not treat my arm, but instead tried to insist on giving me a pap smear. When I refused, he got angry and started screaming at me to not let Obama prevent me from getting the yearly exams I was obligated to have. WTH? I told him no again and he started quizzing me how long it had been since my last exam. Seeing as I haven’t had sex in over 10 years and have never had sex with men I don’t see the need. Not to mention the trauma I was put through when younger because I was born intersex with ambiguous genitalia and was repeatedly genital examined as a child and photographed by creepy old men doctors who did painful examines on me so I am traumatized too much now to have relations with anyone nor have exams. I was also stalked by a female lesbian radiologist after having a breast ultrasound and biopsy. She quizzed me about my religious emblem on necklace, the meaning of it, and I commented I was attending a new church and she showed up the following week at my church asking if I remembered her, announced that she wanted to convert to the religion and I think was trying to get a date with me. Years later I ran into her again at a different radiology center getting a thyroid ultrasound and she come up to me real flirty and said “remember me?” again and I caught her stealing a paper from my chart with my address on it which I ripped from her hands. The following year a different female radiologist who looked very feminine so I would have never thought her lesbian demanded I give her a hug while I was barechested and covered only with a washcloth over my breasts because she thought I “needed a hug” and it would “make me feel better” because of what I was going through with getting a bad diagnosis and losing job at the same time. Another female gynecologist after giving a painful speculum exam tried to convince me to have part of my genitals cut off because of my intersex (formerly known as hermaphroditism) condition because she deemed it didn’t look right. Well sorry if my body offends you doc, but it’s the body I was born with and I don’t see any reason to surgically alter the way I was created by God. So I have been traumatized by both male and female medical professionals including to the point of being stalked at my place of worship. After that I left that church. I finally gave up religion all together after this autistic guy I worked with showed up at a different church I had started visiting and brought his mother with him who tried to convince me what a perfect catch he was. I later learned another male coworker had given him the idea to pursue me there and I was being pursued because I was basically the only single “female” or at least female looking person since I am intersex (which I of course don’t inform my coworkers of) at work. He followed up the next week at work pursuing me up and down the hallways chasing after me at lunch and on break and saying things like “since we go to the same church now we can be friends right?” as if he was a 5 yr old. I later read online how church is now considered a meat market for the single which is an entirely other story I know. But the point being if the radiologist hadn’t stalked me at the first church I probably would have become a member there. Now I won’t go to any church out of fear. I also won’t get an ultrasound anymore. Oh and they tried to insist two separate times that I had breast cancer … well it’s been over 10 years and I am still alive. The whole medical industry and the yearly exam things are all just scams to bilk patients and their insurance companies of as much money as possible to supply doctors with a lavish lifestyle such as the cocky female ENT who once proclaimed to me she didn’t need to treat my ear pain if she didn’t want to because she was a millionaire. Again wth?

  46. RN.. medicine is run like the military. Well it shouldn’t be. You are dealing with patients who may be scared,vulnerable or simply just feeling s…! change needs to come from within, health care workers need to challenge the system. We are people with emotions not items on a conveyor belt.
    You say we should inform ourselves, I agree, but you say you don’t appreciate patients who argue and don’t comply with the system. So a woman who informs herself, let’s say about paps, and refused one, isn’t appreciated. As to women having paps after hysterectomy, well presumably this major surgery will be recorded in the notes so why then are they still being taken? some women do have low intelligence, some can’t read, some have no Internet access. You should be looking out for them!
    I have been under intense pressure to have a smear test. I’ve been harassed about it in the middle of a medication review for severe migraine. I’m actually a low risk women but even if I slept with 5different men every day and smoked 500 cigarettes a day I’d still have the right to refuse a smear test, or any other medical procedure for that matter.

    • And if a woman brings some one in with her to the consultation room it doesn’t mean she can’t think for herself or is stupid. The supporting person might not even be there in a consult for a pap. It could be because the person has a bad cough even and wants support. Or maybe that person could ask a pertinent question that the sick person didn’t think of. A lot of information could be passed in a consult. Maybe too much for even the most intelligent to take in
      I was recently diagnosed with severe microcytic anemia, and was given lots of information to take was only when I’d left I realised I’d not actually asked exactly how low my levels were and I wanted to know. I’m not medically trained, maybe you think I’d not know what it meant but I wanted to know. I was kicking myself when I got outside and later phoned and was told. Had I had someone there with me they might have thought of. Asking!!

    • Change doesn’t have to come from within. Seeing as this is the way things work & what you’ll likely get kicked out for not being like, I’d say it would never come from within. That’s true as a general concept.

      Ever notice how sometimes people don’t want to push other people around? They’re exploiting that.

  47. Hope my long comment made it through. It’s an answer for the RN.
    Here’s another thought for the RN to consider.
    The last time I was hospitalized, every RN going through a divorce thought it necessary to come in and “encourage” me to stand up for myself, to speak up, and not allow my husband to do all my talking. So these hags, young and old, had now become psychologists and psychiatrists. Train on the job? Or just “sharing” what they learned from their long suffering now single female therapist.
    Four days earlier, I had almost died. I was recovering from a major surgery and two minor surgeries plus many procedures. A thirteen day stay including ICU and a Code Blue in post op.
    Thanks to my husband, staff knew all my meds, all my conditions, all my needs. He bathed me, wiped my ass, got me comfortable when the nurses couldn’t.
    Why the issue? He simply said “No;” to one of them wanting to give me a laxative I didn’t need. I couldn’t remember I had already emptied my bowels.

  48. Something I want to add. RN makes a point of “why would a woman have a pap after hysterectomy…anyway (paraphrased but quoted as best I could)” We know women who are post hysterectomy who were told to show up, same time each year, etc, and hop up on the stirrups for the “routine exam.” Without being told why, and definitely no informed consent. Personally a close relative and for another, our neighbor.
    “The Other Side Of The Speculum” author (off memory) makes a point of this. He did his own informal study of women post op for hysterectomy. Now gone is cervix and uterus. [how much I’d like to know if w/o these organs whether or not the orgasm is reduced–any opinions?] The guy commented that if the woman was attractive to average, she was advised same as we are. Come in yearly-your life depends on it.
    Those unattractive gals were correctly advised of “no need” to ever come in for a pap/pelvic exam unless further problems develop.
    RN talks about “buyer beware.” Time and again I’ve tried to get discovery on a doctor’s disciplinary record and have never had any success.
    We are depending on the doctor to be appropriate in terms of advice. As much as our mechanic advises us on car repairs. There’s no way to really know otherwise. Why we’re there to begin with.
    I’m so tired of the double standards imposed on us. We’re to ask questions, but that pisses them off and guarantees a rough exam. We’re to seek our own informed consent, but that’s too many questions. Our preferred advocates are “not welcome,” in the exam room.
    RN–question for you. If we say stop, begin crying in pain, then demand the exam stops, what will you do? Risk instant termination in verbally or even physically demanding the exam stop? Will you tell the doctor you don’t think we have informed consent? Or that he/she’s going too far or is lying to us about the pain we’re about to experience? Will you interfere and put your career at risk? Criticize the doctor immediately if he/she is mean, or jeopardizing our lives?
    Or will you back the doctor? Reinforce his/her lies? Do all you can to make the exam continue no matter what? Will you file a peer review complaint against the doctor? Will you advise us NOT to tell our spouses what just happened–as if we do it will just cause more problems–and instead advise us to forget it happened?
    Where does your loyalty lie? The “do no harm,” or is it somewhere lost in your hypocritical sermon? Or, as said above, will you just encourage me (us) to “be a good girl and have your exam.”
    I want to know. I also want to know how many times you’ve engaged in physical relations with coworkers. Doing so would automatically taint your objectivity against us. How many times have you gossiped about a patient’s body? How many times have you gawked at body parts?
    Do you have concerns about yourself being so vulnerable without your “spouse” there to protect you?
    Those of you who take your advocate with you. Have a preselected codeword ready and agreed to between yourself and your advocate. If you say that word, the advocate is to take action. One word means intervene, another means to immediately terminate the exam, using physical force if necessary. Of course, that does not mean doing things that may endanger lives.
    We once asked a respected orthopedic surgeon about filming surgeries. He answered back that it would create nothing but litigation and issues for those seeking to make trouble.

  49. A couple things struck me related to the RN. Wanted to share them; read what y’all think. The RN who authored the letter has 40+years experience. Each year they are required to complete “continuing education” requirements or credits to maintain their license. In 40yrs, she had to educate herself from blocking men out of the delivery room to accepting their presence, even encouraging them. At some places all family members are allowed to view a normal birth. Our control over Nazi hospital controls is how it should be.
    An RN in our family “rushed” her daughter to an ER pelvic exam for what turned out to be (gasp) an ovarian cyst! Entire time RN mommy hovered over the doctor’s shoulder; despite another nurse present. Apparently all the rules and “for your own good” protocols about patient privacy alone with doctor didn’t apply to her.
    I also note wherever I go, gynecologists almost can’t wait to perform pap/pelvic exams on their own employees. Especially w/o their husbands present. Extremely inappropriate. I believe there’s a story on this site related to a doctor trying to horn in on his married assistant after performing a thorough pelvic on her. Her husband noted on the story hearing it after the fact made him uncomfortable and worried. Rightfully so. Thank God he and his wife bonded up closer afterward. The doctor was eventually reported for inappropriate behavior toward this woman.
    As for the spouse being present. Recently I found out this applies to my husband (needs orthopedic surgery) equally as to me. After I missed a few o/v due to my pain, he has emphatically asked my presence. He wants back up because the doctor, a Kaiser actor, needs to be motivated to take things more seriously. Where RN hates the advocate speaking up, our experiences have been that to ensure proper documentation, getting oneself believed, sometimes requires the spouse or advocate to be an active participant.

  50. A friend of mine told me he went with his wife to her yearly pelvic exam, which was done by a male doctor. He was in the restroom stall when he heard a couple of guys come in. They started talking about how nice it was to examine hot women. He figured out they were a couple of the OB/GYN’s that work in the office. He informed his wife of the conversation he overheard. Needless to say, she doesn’t go to male OB/GYN’s anymore.
    Any normal man with normal testosterone levels is hard-wired to be turned on visually when he sees a naked woman, especially if she takes care of herself and is attractive. Whether it’s on a computer monitor, magazine, or in person, it is the same. Yes, they may be doing something medical/clinical, but who’s to say he isn’t getting a thrill out of sticking his fingers inside your wife’s vagina and anus? If that’s not sexual contact, I don’t know what is. If it can be avoided, I don’t know why a woman would put herself in that situation with a man she’s not married to or not in a relationship with. Just because he has a piece of paper on the wall that says he’s a certified M.D. doesn’t make him immune to sexual thoughts and arousal. Thank goodness my wife goes to a female OB/GYN.

    • Well, a woman can be cut from the same cloth & it doesn’t change the lack of utility or safety of things to have a woman involved. Not for nothing, but in reality lesbianism IS possible along with bisexuality & even a simple taste for compulsion. There’s actually something called “duper’s delight” where someone gets a thrill/high from lying. There’s plenty of attention-getting with medical personnel, also. On top of all this, they are taught a particular doctrine or body of information- not necessarily accurate information. It’s like having a black belt in WHATEVER the art is.

    • Dan, I hope you’re reading this. Don’t plan on allowing your wife to attend these appointments with female gyn’s alone either. More sexual exchanges occur between women than between men who doctor women. Do your research. You can have a lesbian doctor who also has a lesbian nurse. A woman can do the same “exploring” under the guise of “ruling out” where a man would come under suspicion. A woman will report a man. No one will fault her if she becomes aroused–it’s his fault. However will a woman be as willing to report another woman doing the same? When the doctor can come back and successfully blame it all on the patient’s “repressed” sexual urges? It happens. Women in medicine are impossible to prosecute. That’s bias for you.
      We see men plea bargaining all the time. What we don’t see is the actual truth. Both sides get a somewhat satisfactorily negotiated finish. Each hides what it wants.
      Prosecutors get bonus’ for high conviction rates. Elder abuse cases are rejected.
      As a society, we lose justice. As people, we receive poor medical care.
      There are sites where you can read about female practitioner sex with female patients.

      • Woman don’t NEED these well woman exams . its brainwashing. If your not having symptoms why put your self thru such intrusive exams. What do these woman get out of it if there healthy symptom free?? The doctors sure get money out of it. Something that makes no logical since to me, bring all healthy woman in every year to have there sexual organs examed. It never made since and no one ever gave me a good explanation to back up the so called vital exam. I just laugh its beyond me.

  51. Exactly! And here in the UK we don’t have such exams and we aren’t all keeling over and dying! I’ve said before, personally, I’m 51, coping with menopause, no diabetes cholesterol blood pressure weight problems therefore I am a WELL WOMAN!!

    • And many woman hear in the US think you can only get birth control from a gyn. I remember a pageant contestant was asked what she thought about birth control. She answered that it has liberated woman and that they can get it from there obgyn . it was so annoying.

      • If there was such a state of liberation, wouldn’t it be over the counter? Instead of the frequent case of getting backed into all kinds of probing & possible injury?

  52. Well, the term “need” tends to imply “die without.” Even if it did, it’s still someone’s own choice whether or not this happens. It’s word usage to try & back people into things- just like talking in fixed terms (ex: saying what they’re “going” to do or what someone “will” be having- as if there exists no capacity for reality to develop any other way, which is bullshit since an action has to be engaged in order to occur).

    I really wonder if they take a course on this type of thing or if it’s just something that soaks in over time. It doesn’t seem accidental or rare.

  53. A hospital in Madurai, Tamilnadu, India.

    Arthur Asirvatham hospital – Dr.(moderated due to legalities).

    – she exposes all her female patients naked to all male staffs and doctors.
    – I and my husband are so broken in heart and leading a peace less life from the day of my naked exposure by (moderated) to other Males.

    God should punish her.
    Dear Doctors, Please consider your female patients as your mother or your sister and please don’t expose their nakedness to other male doctors and male nurses.
    God will punish you.

  54. I have had the same family physician since I was born. He is the same doc as my mother and grandmother. I am only 22 so I still have regular paps( although I have missed a couple). He has always been professional. Just a quick swab and a finger insertion. He has never made me feel uncomfortable. He is currently my son and daughters doc as well

    • But why do you have regular paps when it has been shown to have no medical use?

      The UK doesn’t start this process until 25 and the Netherlands starts them at age 30 and then every 5 years. It is baffling to the rest of the world why Americans have these arse probing checks all the time. The whole purpose of this website is to publicly raise this issue, so women can see they are being ripped off by a vagina probing business, but you seem to miss this point.

      • The American College of Physicians states that women do not need routine pelvic exams because they are not evidence based. There is no science backing them as a screening tool. Pap smears are only recommended every three years if you have made the informed choice to screen. The FDA has stated that they no longer recommend pap smears and that HPV testing should be done instead and should be the standard of care. The breast exam that is also usually done as part of the well woman exam is also not evidence based as a screening tool. In general the annual physical is not scientifically based. If your Dr is still recommending the annual physical/well woman exam he is not following standard of care practices and is putting your health at risk with over testing which can lead to over treatment.

    • Being professional doesn’t mean anything- someone can shoot someone in the face without a murderous glare or a perverted grin. The demeanor is actually something that can ADD to things for some people, as there’s such a thing as “Duper’s Delight” (actually the psychological term, if I’m not misinformed).

  55. Hi Ada. ‘A quick finger insertion’??? WtF? Some boys want to be train drivers, some boys want to be astronaughts but some just want to stick their fingers in vaginas all day long and view teenage girls privates so they invented a special male only job called ‘gynaeocology” This is actually a job!!!

    Imagine women trying to invent a job where they check men’s d#*@s all day and view little boys privates. They would be locked up.

  56. When I asked my doctor, a urologist/gynecologist, why he had used a vertical incision rather than a horizontal one, for my post menopausal hysterectomy (due to bowel prolapse and some still undiagnosed connective tissue problems, there being not enough room for my uterus to remain and severe spasms plus Interstitial Cystitis were affecting me, which physical therapy has helped) here is what I was told and I QUOTE:

    ” Well THAT is the way that Jack the Ripper cut all his VICTIMS!” I kid you not; needless to say, I NEVER went back to Dr (name moderated out) EVER AGAIN, his bedside humor or should I say, lack of human connection whatsoever, notwithstanding, a mere seven months later, the bowel portion of the surgery FAILED I had to go back to yet another practice in Philadelphia and have the same exact surgery performed plus removal of the then retained cervical cuff ) Complications ensued (hemtoma vs hernia-CT performed showed “contrast” and now I STILL have retained barium in my bowel that should have been removed at the second surgery performed by (names moderated) Hospital in Philly. I had swallowed this in between the first (2008) and second (2010) surgeries to diagnose gastro issues; with Dr (moderated) finding it she should have removed it , talks with the hospital were non responsive. Oh and (name moderated) left my tubes and ovaries INSIDE when I was there to have them out once and for all. I have the feeling my name has been blacklisted within uro-gyno circles…

    Of note, I would rather have a fully performed PROPER exam than one performed in a fast and incomplete manner. Since the above fiascos, I have had exams where a doctor exclaimed, “Well, I THINK what I am touching is your tailbone!” No, it was the damn barium and I ca’t get anyone to remove the offending block of stone, leads anyone?! Perferably one with no sense of humor, btu a sense of well being for the patients’ future!

    • Hi Cathy. I think you would have been better off being operated on by Jack the Ripper – he certainly would have treated you with more respect.

      About twenty years ago I had a rabbit that developed all kind of uterine cancers. Amazingly they operated and took them out and gave her follow up treatment. She did well and went to live a long and happy life. Its a fact that most people would be better off being operated on by vets – who in my opinion are much more skilled at what they do.

      However, that not really going to happen. Here in the west we tend to think of having all our treatments here because we feel its the right thing to do. You could consider travelling abroad. India has some brilliant clever surgeons as has Cuba. Its worth considering as quite clearly you are not going to get the care you need where you are

      Best wishes x

  57. I am a female in my early 20s. Had to go to the doctors after my pap to get the IUD that I wanted. Not many Doctors were willing in the area to do it because I’ve never had kids before. However I was sent to a doctor who was an Older man (first time having a male doctor looking at that area) and moral of my story is he was in and out no problem, didn’t make me feel sqirmish at all and I didn’t feel the need to be uncomfortable. Yes he was a man probably enjoyed the view but hell he’s a doctor and that’s what he’s paid to do.

    • Good you didn’t have a bad experience. But it doesn’t mean that this gives the medical system the right to force other women to see male doctors. The problem isn’t with the existence of male doctors per se, the problem is with the absence of woman’s freedom to choose and decide what is done to her body and by whom.

  58. For Katelyn and Anonymous:

    Hopefully you’ve revisited this site and carefully read what Cathypogo, Alice and Linda have had to say to you. Please read or re-read what the doctor in “The Other Side of the Speculumn” said; he speaks the truth. A while back a young woman posted similar comments to yours and after the experts here tried to reason with her, she said she wouldn’t visit the site again because she felt jumped on. Please, please don’t feel that way. These brave women (and Alex..can’t leave out Alex) are passionate about ending this because they’ve found the truth and only are looking out for you and every woman out there who still subject themselves to this. I felt the same way you do and for ages, until coming to this site. My problem, I finally realized, was that I always looked at it from how I felt; not from the point of view of the male gynecologist. You have to ask yourselves: what kind of man makes his life’s career out of putting his fingers in women’s private areas. You have to ask yourselves: why is there no campaign to get men to go to the urologist to get their genitals checked – why there’s no equivalent industry for them. These doctors that you’ve seen are older. They’ve seen the information out there and for ages now. They also know that the American College of Physicians (ACOP) have stated 1. that annual exams are no longer required and 2. the bimanual is useless.

    For you Katelyn – you’ve only seen the doctor once – for an IUD. This doctor, since it’s your first visit, wasn’t going to creep you out – he was on his best behavior to ensure that you come back. I assure you that the IUD will not be in your body for the next 5-10 years without issues. Please think twice about who you go to when you have to have your follow up visit. You have to listen to what you said – “he’s paid to do it”. Yes – you’re paying him to touch you. No offense, but that’s prostitution in reverse. If it gives you a tickle knowing that this older man likes looking at you, then that is your private business. However, when you factor in that he’s looking at and touching alot of women – that should make you feel a bit like a used rag. You went into the office thinking of yourself and that you wanted to get an IUD, so you weren’t concerned. I hope for your own sake you will be. I assure you that if you go back for checkups, he’ll then want to give you a pelvic and bimanual and do whatever he says is necessary and it won’t be a quick in and out. I fear you’ll see what we mean, but by then you will have had a bad experience. We really don’t want you to have to go through that as you can’t take it back once you realize that you’re a piece of meat to this older man. You can only try to get over it with time. You really should choose wisely who you let touch you. Please choose a female gynecologist next time. Really.

    For you Anonymous – for your doctor to continue to do a quick swab and stick a finger in – is in itself wrong (and gross) because, he also has to know by the ACOP’s statements that they’re not necessary. Your mom and your grandmom, since they’ve gone to him for years, probably have experienced discomfort and suspicion. But like so many women, they don’t want to admit that it’s wrong. This would mean they have in effect, for decades have allowed this man to touch their private areas only meant for their husbands and it was wrong. You have to think of the generations they’re from and what that really means to them. Your grandmom and mom I imagine are upstanding women where they live. What upstanding woman wants to admit this to themselves. I imagine it’s easier to perpetuate the lie to themselves, and now to you, in order to continue in denial. They’re not being malicious – rather just acting under human nature, but they’re hurting you and themselves. You didn’t mention any history of breast cancer or other cancer in your family. If getting checked is that important to you, then please, please take yourself and daughter to a female gynecologist. Please don’t prostitute yourself and your daughter any further to this doctor, who has decades of practice hiding how he really feels. What we’re trying to tell you has been proven. IF he doesn’t put up a fuss over you changing to a female doctor for gynecological exams, then great. IF he puts up a fuss, then you have your answer – he’s proven what we’re trying to gently explain to you.

    I think some women think that – well at least he’s not some leering man on the street – he’s wearing a white lab coat. You have to realize that even male gynecologists have imaginations that no white walled office and white lab coat can harness. You really don’t know what he thinks about you and the legions of women he’s fingered. Too many doctors have been brought up on charges and convicted for there to be any doubt. You should no longer take that risk. Once you realize his intentions after you’ve subjected yourself to him, you can’t take it back – you can only try to get past it with time; just read the other entries here. I’m thinking of your daughter. (and by the way, your GP shouldn’t be penetrating you….he’d only have to refer you anyway if he “found” something). Please be careful. Please be blessed.

  59. The pelvic examination made by a male doctor is a consented rape, no male doctor must be allowed to make such exams on our wifes or girlfriends. Also no women shouldn’t consent this if she have some respect to his partner.

    • That is ridiculous that a pelvic exam by a male doctor is “consented rape.” The definition of rape is penetration that is NON-consensual.

      The gender of the care provider really is not the issue. The issue is that some care providers–and they can be male OR female–get off on doing the exams, whether it be getting off sexually, or from a power rush.

      Also, the issue is not “no women (sic) shouldn’t consent to this if she have (sic) some respect to his (sic) partner.” That is ridiculous, and takes power away from the woman being examined, only giving her value if she is in a partnered relationship. The issue is the woman being examined, whether she is partnered or single. Does she need the exam, either for her physical or emotional health? Has she been properly educated about the pros & cons, and her options? Has she been free to choose a care provider who she feels comfortable with?

      The majority of pelvic exams that are done are not necessary or in any way beneficial, unless you buy into the “bonding with your doctor” crap I read once as a justification for annual exams that made me want to vomit. I can bond with my doctor over a cup of tea while we discuss my health, not their hand in my vagina, thank you very much!

      • Some American doctors want to carry on with routine pelvic exams because, wait for it, women are more likely to mention other issues in that area like incontinence during this exam. Yet I don’t hear them suggesting an unnecessary exam of the male genitalia to help them open up about other issues. It also ignores the fact this exam can lead to some harmful places, like unnecessary surgery.
        It’s so clearly about protecting their business, the well woman exam is worth a fortune or was…more women are walking away from this harmful excess.

      • What do you mean “emotional health”? I don’t want to be crass, but I’d think the only way she’d need something like that for her emotional health would be if she felt ugly or something.

        In truth, it doesn’t make much (if any) difference if there is utility to this situation or not. If she decides not to have this done to her, that’s it. I don’t know why people keep such an open mind to “necessity,” because there’s the massive potential for them to just make things up & it’s really just an avenue of override- like they have some kind of ammunition or a trump card to use in contradiction of her.

        Also, the woman’s decision is only part of this situation- it’s not for the doctor to lie, either. Someone can get a bit wrapped up in “choice, choice, choice” & totally forget that there are other entities at work & they CAN fuck up as its own situation (ex: the woman’s choice doesn’t enter into it if the doctor is nasty with the staff).

      • Alex, what I mean by “emotional health” is that a woman who had a close friend or relative who died of cervical cancer might feel better emotionally if she has regular pap smears…even though the research shows that physically, they are not beneficial. We are not merely physical beings, we are emotional, spiritual, and sexual. All parts of our health should be considered in decision making.

      • Jenn Riedy: Isn’t that a little like drinking urine for a “psychological edge”? That was on one of the survival shows (Dual Survival- don’t remember which episode). There’s nothing to generate that feeling, in fact it makes things worse- so it should generate the opposite feeling.

        If a woman wants to just feel like she’s DOING something toward this goal, she could do anything- she literally hold her breath for a minute or jump up & down a bunch of times. I get that it burns off the nervousness, but if it’s going to just be an exertion of energy for the purposes of comfort, what’s the difference? Feeling that action is going toward something just because you emotionally “tag” it that way is a bit false & if she’s not going to trust the results there’s really no reason to “ask the question.”

        It’s a bit similar to how you can push a button for one flavor drink at the vending machine & get another. People try to pour water on a grease fire to put it out & it doesn’t work (you’ve got to use baking soda or something like that). So someone’s scared & wants to “chase” the issue away- something useless for doing that wouldn’t be effective for the intended goal.

  60. A ‘pelvic exam’ is a ridiculous way to look for anything whether its done by a male or female. Unless you think there is something amiss inside and specificly want a second opinion there is no reason for them at all.

    • Exactly, if a doctor suggested that was a good way to “connect” with me, (at any age) I’d be out the door. It’s important to choose a doctor with the right personality, someone who’ll work with you. I know in a few minutes whether I could work with someone, my doctor is likely to carry on for a few more years but she’s about 60 and I know she wants to do other things with her life, do a painting course in Tuscany and more travel.
      I’ve taken note of the other doctors at the surgery, most of them are fine, one is out, she’s into women’s health, not interested, I want someone interested in my health full stop, not focusing on my breasts and reproductive organs. There’s nothing to do in these areas anyway, I don’t have breast exams, mammograms, pelvic exams or pap tests.
      I think the “women’s healthcare” focus has been harmful, with lots of women negatively affected, if not actually harming women, driving many away from healthcare. (for real issues)

      • I was not able to change my doctor’s practice, due to residents in the UK being allocated catchment area surgeries, so I was stuck with my practice, which covers about 10,000 people. As there are 5 GPs there, I wrote a letter complaining about my then GP and saying that I wished to be allocated another who would deal with whatever issue it was I had come about, and not pester me into any kind of screening or tests that were not related to my issue. I was duly allocated a new lady doctor, who wears full muslim dress, only showing her hands and face, and who treated me with the utmost respect, and dealt with the issue in hand and nothing else. She also told me that I could see her without an appointment, as I was awaiting my hysterectomy for endometrial cancer at the time. Although I did not take up her offer it was good to know I had that option if things got too bad.
        In 2015 the UK government changed the law on catchment areas, enabling patients to doctor shop and find a GP they like. However, the GP always reserves the right to refuse to take on other patients, if their list is full, and the patient lives too far away for the GP to make a reasonable home visit if necessary.

  61. I have always told my wife that women should see female doctors in males should see male doctors when possible when they have to expose themselves. So that way you can be sure that there is not some sort of sexual attraction and your not putting yourself or the doctor in that position where something like that may occur. She thinks I’m insane for feeling this way and says it’s not normal.

    • There are plenty of lesbian doctors and nurses Lewis. Going to a female doctor does not mean she will not enjoy examining your wife. I was stalked by a lesbian radiologist who did my breast biopsy. And a nurse practitioner who was lesbian had her eyeballs almost fall out of her head when I had to take my top off and she saw my large breasts. Had no idea she was lesbian until then and it dawned on me her hair style and demeanor. Nothing against lesbians. I’m just trying to say going to a female medical practitioner is no safer for women. Most intimate exams should be avoided as they don’t benefit the patient anyways.

      • The kindest and most caring nurse I ever had was a gay man, who had most empathy with women and childbirth. He showed me the utmost respect and care at all times. The worst doctor I ever had was a lesbian with no empathy or care whatsoever for women going through childbirth and the difficulties that might entail.

    • Lewis, I agree with you. I would never entertain seeing a male doctor myself if I knew there was a possibility I would have to expose myself – never. A one-off, emergency situation where there was no alternative would be a different story. I would feel so vulnerable, exposed and demeaned at the thought of a man examining me on a regular basis. I also feel that when feelings concerning sex are introduced to the medical arena, it is highly inappropriate and has the potential to take the empathy out of the situation – although I do accept women can be aroused too (it is just for me, that I would never willingly choose to see a male in that situation).

      However, as others have pointed out, I don’t consider paps, pelvics or breast exams to be “necessary” as to merit an investigation by any doctor in asymptomatic individuals. I agree with Kleigh – they are harmful, potentially detrimental to mental health, clinically useless and medically unneccessary. I would only choose to see a gynecologist if I was experiencing genuinely troublesome symptoms.

  62. I think it’s not normal for healthy woman to even think they “must or need these exams. She’s brainwashed

  63. I went to bed school and I completely understand the difference between looking at an attractive woman and one that isn’t if women think they doctors don’t see that or don’t feel that when they touch a woman unattractive won between their legs they’re out of their mind because they all do and when they’re with the guys they talk about it all the time

  64. I tell you what I’m a doctor I don’t consider myself a pervert I just consider myself the same as my associates and we talk we talk a lot we get together we talk about the New Girl in Town who is the first one that I have her on her table strip down you know how easy it is to get a woman out of her clothes if your doctor in the office she could come in for a toothache and we can have her bending over the table giving her a rectal exam and should agree put a male in that same and you will get the same results I guarantee although I don’t care to have a male bend over my table but if a doctor tells you to get undressed and put on a gown you might as well walk in naked because I’ll tell you as a male doctor that’s just the way to do it to have you naked because you’re going to take that gun off one way or the other as soon as you come in and said I gotta listen to your heart honey pull your eyes down down to your waist there you go your breast sore exposed I’ll be there and then lay down on the table and I have to check the for about quadrants wide open right between your legs and I guarantee you between you before you leave you’ll be turning over and not your feel that if I called you and then all the sudden you’ll feel like finger go up your rectum or if the doctor just feels kinky that day with a lot of guys do and if you’re good looking they would rather have you been get off the table when they can do it very much easier while you’re on the table and be done with the physical they would have you get off the table and bend over so they can just have their little Tyrell doing a rectal examination and I’m a male doctor and I’m ashamed to say it and I don’t consider myself a pervert but I’m just like any other man or male doctor in it it should make you puke if it’s if if your a female because that’s the way it is and that’s the way it always will be in addition

    in addition the to all of my male Associates not know what he’s doing writing down here on the bottom good time I’ll tell you what ladies I give you a little piece of advice if you’re modest and you don’t want to be groped go see a female doctor except then you always have the problem you might have a lesbian so I don’t know what you’d rather deal with I know my wife would rather deal with a man groping her then have a female lesbian doctor groping her so take your pick I am sorry to put the real world out there to you ladies but that’s it believe me I’ve been doing this for 25 years over and out

  65. I am 54 years old and I have choosen not to have pap and pelvic exams anymore,I only had 2 sexual partners my entire life,always had “normal” paps over the years , a widow for over 13 years and not sexual active for those 13 years.My 1st husband was very abusive and I have asked male gyn Drs to be gentle with me during the pap and pelvic exam ,only to fall on deaf ears. I have 2 grown children, my pregnancies were always normal with no complications ,I do still have all my reproductive organs and going thru menopause right now.I feel in my case, not being sexually active for over 13 years I do not need a pelvis and pap tests it is my body and my decison, I have been tested over the years for any sexual diseases (from my 1st husband) and I have none, I am healthy.

  66. This remimds me of the time I went to a GP because of blood in my stool (TMI I know but relevant). Anywhoo, he stated that he was going to do a rectal exam, which made since based on my chief complaint. What didn’t make since was his suggestion that I have pelvic exam because “since he was doing one end he might as well do the other.” I declined. Oddly enough he also thought it was strange that I wasn’t sexually active at my age. Readimg this brings me right back to that moment and gives me the creeps all over again.

  67. You know if you’re going to make a claim that people don’t need pap smears after a hysterectomy you should qualify that with studies to prove said claim. A main function of a pap smear is checking for any sexually transmitted diseases they may have picked up. I for one would like to know if I have picked something up even if I’ve had a hysterectomy. It’s not like I stopped having sex. And for those who say well they’ve been monogamous for years, that still doesn’t prevent you from getting certain diseases that don’t show up until years later, not to mention possible cheating spouses. And while it’s true that there are probably male doctors out there who do get a thrill looking at a naked woman’s body while performing routine medical checks, I would like to point out that there are plenty of female doctors who enjoy looking at male bodies during routine checks as well.. doctors and nurses everywhere talk about the bodies of the patients that they’ve seen very frequently. You’re acting like it’s just male OBGYNs who are these horrible sexual deviants.. please.. we’re all human, as long as they’re not making sexual comments or making any kind of sexual innuendo and are in fact actually correctly doing the medical procedures that they say they are doing I really don’t see what the problem is. What goes on in my doctor’s head, goes on in my doctors head, I don’t really care to know..

    • IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A UTERUS, YOU DO NOT HAVE A CERVIX TO SCRAPE. There is no other purpose for a pap “scrape”. I read your post and I’m simply astounded.

      You are as much the problem as the molesters. Being educated about our own bodies and the particular exams/procedures the medical establishment want to do is so important, you and so many like you go to the doctor and just lay back and declare “whatever you want, whatever you choose to do, have at it…I’m just a silly patient and I should never get in the way of your brilliance”.

      Yes there are female doctors that get a secret thrill, but certainly not in the high numbers compared to male doctors…still, that is EXACTLY why there should be no opposite gender intimate exams.

      • You know what astounds me? The fact that this article speaks generally of hysterectomies without any qualifying factors. Many women get partial hysterectomies switch does in fact leave the cervix.. also, if you are part of the 12% of women who get a hysterectomy due to cancer, you need to continue getting exams to check for cancerous growth, even with a radical hysterectomy. After any type of hysterectomy, vaginal and bladder prolapse become real possibilities and routine checks are part of prevention.
        You have a choice in choosing a male or female doctor. You have a choice to consent to procedures. You have the ability to look up and know what the procedures are for. I am sick and tired of women running around claiming victim. Stop slandering men who’s true minds you don’t actually know. You know why my OB decided to specialize in women’s health? The first time he saw a woman give birth, he thought it was the most beautiful amazing feat he had ever seen. I think it’s sick that somebody can write an article and claim that all OBGYNs are only in the field to ogle women and everybody hops on board.

      • And the fact that from my comments you assume that somehow I have no interest in what the doctor is actually doing and think that he is smarter than me and simply lets him do what he wants, is insulting. I have actually given birth to three children and am very informed on all elective and routine procedures and all of my options concerning said procedures. I have done lots of research and I have even declined procedures, because that is my right as a patient. Just because so many women choose to be uneducated does not mean that they get to claim victim. You all need to take responsibility for your own Medical Care, take the time to be informed and stop trying to slander the doctors.

      • I’m not so much “slandering doctors” as I am going against the culture(I expect them to be held to the very same measure we do to anyone else in society – what you are calling slander is nothing more than holding these doctors to the very same standards the rest of society holds to)…the culture or indoctrination is.. trust these people as if they are somehow super human and above reproach. The fact is there is tremendous opportunity for male gyno’s to violate women, especially when the patients defend their behaviors and when the medical establishment protects their predators.

        It is precisely the fact we have become informed and that our eyes are open, that is why we advocate for no opposite gender exams, it removes at least one factor entirely. Look up Dr Maraghi in Canada…it took one woman over 20 years to be finally heard and that was only because a few others had finally complained. There are only 3 or 4 women that spoke up over a 40 year span, there is no way this pervert committed just 4 acts like this…the culture, the protective establishment and the patients own shame is why and at least… finally… people are waking up. Even with that, most of these predators get no jail time, unlike any other person outside the protected world of doctors.

      • You are absolutely slandering doctors. I’ve read through numerous of your comments on here. You make a very specific point of assuming that any and all doctors are purposefully misleading their patients about procedures, are being patronizing and are presenting themselves as decent people when according to you, they are not, all in order to grope women. Look I don’t know what bad experience you had or what insecurities you have or whatever it is that made you think that this is all male doctors, but I’m not one to decide that everyone in a group is defined by a few bad apples. And I’ve noticed that you very neatly skirt any evidence that explains why these procedures are necessary in a variety of situations. You even try arguing with doctors who have gotten on here because apparently you believe that you know what’s in the mind of every male doctor out there and you know everything about these procedures. I would also argue that there is no longer this “indoctrination” of trusting your doctor implicitly. In today’s day in age everybody wants to find a reason to sue their doctor. So no, you’re not different or going against the norm, you are the norm. You, like most people in today’s world, seem to believe that you know everything and you must have gone to medical school in a previous life. And it’s a shame that people have allowed themselves to be in bad situations or to be so uneducated on procedures, that they end up being uncomfortable and blame the doctor. People need to be their own advocates when it comes to their medical health. I’m tired of people claiming victim. If you don’t want a male OBGYN then don’t go with a male OBGYN! It’s really that simple. These people who claim that their doctor has been molesting them for 40 years.. You mean you willingly went to someone that you believe was molesting you for 40 years? Are you kidding me? It’s idiotic and insane and I don’t believe that people across the globe are truly that stupid. A few people, sure. But not enough to make your claims on sexually deviant doctors to be as universal as you seem to think it is

      • You call slander something it is not. I call the potential dangers, backed up by personal evidence and so many incidents where male doctors take advantage of female patients. The potential for abuse is there, despite your believing it is not. I do know what is in the male mind…you don’t care what is in their minds…you have every right to feel that way just like my wife and I have every right to feel as we do.

        The key is protection, considering the medical establishments only protection is for their fellow doctors. We do not want to sue doctors (their fear mongering defense tactic when called on the carpet) Most people cannot afford to bring a suit against such large pocket entities with such vast protection services. What we can do is protect those we love.

        Do you know how people end up returning to people that abuse them for 40 years… indoctrination and blind trust – fear – shame – experience from attempting to do so.

      • Lol your comment is ridiculous on so many levels. Your most glaring one “I do know what is in the male mind”.. congratulations on projecting your own degrading and misogynistic viewpoints on men you’ve never met.
        Your mountain of anecdotal evidence is irrelevant to a serious discussion. In the future, using actual evidence-based studies rather than “personal evidence” would be much more persuasive to an educated and rational argument.
        Oh and FYI, there are absolutely thousands of groups who are willing to sue doctors for free and only take money if the suit is won. so, yet again, I remind you to actually check your facts.

      • Hilarious. In your zeal to protect doctors you seem to think that male doctors are super human and are able to not be like all other men not wearing lab coats

      • Ah and one last thing.. Slander is defined as “make false and damaging statements against someone”, which is exactly what you are doing to an entire profession.

      • A woman can still have a cervix and not have a uterus. It’s called a subtotal hysterectomy and does not include the removal of the cervix and ovaries.

      • Most of us know that…of course most of us also know that what was said was “after a Hysterectomy”…not after a subtotal Hysterectomy. My mother in law had a complete hysterectomy and her doctor has billed her for, tells her she needs a yearly PAP…and of course she will not listen to anyone else, after all it is from “the doctor” there is no need to question, that would be slander or libel.

      • >>> You know why my OB decided to specialize in women’s health? The first time he saw a woman give birth, he thought it was the most beautiful amazing feat he had ever seen.

        I’m starting to think that they teach them to say that in medical school. Have you tried asking a male gynecologist the same thing? I can’t even imagine an answer that wouldn’t make me want to gag. Besides, what would you expect your OB to say anyway? I’m not suggesting that what he told you isn’t true–he might be a very good person and a wonderful doctor–but if he were a sick pervert who enjoyed hurting women in their most vulnerable position do you seriously think he would tell you that? Are you seriously that naive? Just because someone says something doesn’t mean it’s true, and just because you got lucky with your doctor doesn’t mean that all those women who went through several doctors and never got one who treated them with respect are just playing victims.

    • A pap smear tests for cellular changes in the cervix that may indicate the presence of cancer. That is all. It does not test for STI’s or other cancers. Those are other tests that may also be done at the same time as a pap smear. Testing for STI’s can also be done through blood or urine. A pelvic exam can also be done at the same time as a pap test to check for tumors that could be cancer however it has been found to be of low clinical value and is no longer recommended as a screening exam for uterine or ovarian cancer.

      • The paper scrape takes normal cells and damages them…guess how cancer cells mutate…from damaged cells.

      • Spell check changed pap scrape to paper scrape. Also – is it slanderous to prefer a 16 yrs old girl to babysit over a 40 yrs old male…neither of whom you have ever met? Nope, it’s called discriminating taste…or wisdom…or discernment. But someone in today’s whack society would call that slander and bigotry.

    • For one thing, it certainly seems that blood & urine tests (maybe even saliva tests) can work for STDs & it actually seems to only be SAID to be useful for testing for STDs in the first place. Just because it matches medical doctrine doesn’t mean it matches up with the actual situation.

      For another, what goes on in the doctor’s head is pretty pertinent to the treatment one receives- if they’re nuts or too arrogant to catch their own mistakes, for instance. Them believing that what comes from their head is something that outmatches what comes from the patient’s/priority’s head is a major problem. The concept of “What comes from me is an “A” & what comes from you is a “B,” at best- so I outmatch you.” This “intellectual negation” is something that pretty much indicates a contempt for the consent of the person that these actions are being done to.

      Another point that can be made is: Why is it that these problems continually show up with these professions? It’s a little much to believe that all these people are saying the same things & are just making up random bullshit. Maybe there’s a problem with the workers in these fields?

    • Well, aren’t you special…as that quote from SNL goes. You have no idea why a pap “scrape” is even done, why we refer to it as that…nor do you get what everybody here is trying to educate you regarding your dear, kind, angelic, generous, whatever-whatever ob/gyn you have. You simply don’t know; and by your own admission you DON’T want to know! Honey, you just qualified yourself to possibly win the ob/gyn Patient Of The Year award.
      The “scrape” isn’t to check for disease. Never has been. It checks for abnormal cells. Not cancer; not STD’s. Ask your md and check me on this. It can’t. The computer that reads the slides isn’t programmed for those things. The swabbing of your vagina/cervix, prepped on a wet slide, is what checks for STD’s. Pap Scrape’s are done via a wooden spatula which is dragged in a circle through the center of your cervix. The scrape removes the single layer of cells that we use to fight off HPV. SO, if you have HPV that scrape just deposited the nasty virus into deep tissue where it thrives. The colpo brush does same, depositing virus through the protective mucus into the endocervical canal. The “smear”? That’s what is done with the goo on the spatula. “Smeared” on a glass then fixed with spray and sent off to the computer. Rarely, a human pathologist samples the slide to check on the machine. This is why we are cycled through each year. It only has a 53% accuracy rate. Did you know that? Pap only can check for HPV if doctor requests it, and that’s only if it comes back positive for referral to colpo.
      Sooo, you CAN have HPV and never know it thanks to pap.
      You should ask deary doc why he hasn’t bothered to tell you. But I already know. Docs like calling the colpo brush the “womb broom” like we’re gonna love it. That pain we feel means they’ve swept up crumbs? Eh?!
      We’re against same-sex exams. Did you know that gays/lesbians like to practice medicine too? Guess what, women molest more often than men do in this field, but never are they charged because it’s impossible for them to be prosecuted. My husband was molested by four nurses during a pre-op for his hernia. While drugged and what they thought unconscious, one of the nurses thought he needed a “message.” During this, the handheld device used to paint antibacterial on him was dropped twice. The second time on the floor. The other nurse giggled about the “3 second rule applying here” and picked it up and carried on. My husband fought off the drugs enough, before he was “finished off,” and he flipped them off. While trying to shake off the cloth covering his eyes, he felt drugs going into his IV…he woke up in recovery but thankfully remembered the experience.
      HIs mother and sister in law are RN’s and they both have remarked what goes on in surgery, ICU, ER, and just about anywhere else. Doctors and nurses looking at us naked, as we are for 15 minutes minimum before and after surgery are the minimum that occurs. No wonder they hate being patients and make the worst patients.
      My husband’s ex-best friend from high school is an anesthesiologist. We’ve caught him lying to us about the lamest of procedures. Facts are, doctors do believe themselves to be way above us intellectually. They talk of informed consent but they want 40 shades of reality between them, what actually happens, and ourselves.
      I suggest you seriously think what’s going on in your doctor’s head. Has he ever said to you in your young years, or any of your daughters these things? “Possibly serious, rule out, want to make sure…, have to do this each year or I’ll go to jail, can’t prescribe w/o doing this, a couple
      Advil 15 minutes before hand will take care of any pain, etc…?” Has he ever gotten fishy about sexual practices you might enjoy? Has his exams ever seemed to take longer? Has he ever stared at your nipples (after pinching them during breast exam) when he inserts his fingers? Has he claimed he can feel ovaries, uterus, etc? Well, he CAN’T! Did you feel like your sexual buttons were being messaged during an exam? Leave wet? Does he stare at the ceiling during exams? And, now older, do the exams take less than 15 seconds and it seems like he can’t get out of the room quick enough? Well honey, you’ve been taken advantage of. Like we don’t know if our nipples have been discharging or NOT?1
      My neighbor has worked with an obgyn practice. Sexual play was the norm. Their girlfriends for one. Sometimes one would come out of a room and insist, “you didn’t see what you thought you saw.” Ok…
      If your doctor was being honest with you, he’d talk about urine testing for HPV and STD’s. Yes. Trovagene. Dare you to look it up. This San Diego company offers these tests which are done off a sample of your morning urine-self collected at home. 93% accurate too. Uses PCR and anti-body pickup. You get results in two weeks. Insurance accepted or $120 cash.
      If doctors stuck to curing patients who needed their help, and were honest giving us true informed consent…we’d never need to have sites like this one. But they don’t. They never will given their way. Doctors think they know better for us than we do.
      Does your doctor sterilize his exam table between patients? How about the bathroom door and door knobs? Whatever an infected patient could touch. Pretty much sterilize the room like a good dentist does is what’s necessary. Does he leave speculums and other equipment out so others can play with them? If so, if I were you I’d be worried about catching HPV or STD from his office rather than a husband. Does doc tell you about hygiene?

    • How many times has that old chestnut been rolled out? “The first time he ever saw a woman give birth, he thought it was the most beautiful amazing feat…” yada yada yada.

      It MIGHT be true for some men, for many, I’d hazard a guess that the followingscenarios might inspire men to become gynecologists, 1.) control over women, 2.) Hurting women, 3.) A feeling that they are in mind, persuading women that they are taking care of them by looking after their health (how many times have we read of inappropriate relationships developing?)

      And if a man were to genuinely empathise with women because of their “unique” condition, why choose a profession that encourages women to submit to testing (that they know is likely to cause embarrassment and discomfort) while at their MOST exposed and vulnerable??

      If he genuinely cares about women, why can’t he choose another more empathetic career path? I can think of olenty that don’t involve scrutinising a woman’s body during childbirth, pregnancy and screening, such as counselling for example?

  68. Libel and slander are types of defamatory statements. Libel is a written defamatory statement, and slander is a spoken or oral defamatory statement.

    • You are correct. Libel would be the correct word to use here. However, “slander” is used informally in place of “defamation”, which is how I was using it.

  69. >>>> I thought that men (and some women) specialised in OB/GYN in the States because they failed to become surgeons and the next best profession is OB. Women’s healthcare is big business.

    For example – IMO

    1 Young girls are “captured” in their early teen for their first pelvic exam. The brainwashing begins here. Women are convinced at a young age that their reproductive organs need annual surveillance.
    2 Contraception
    3 Annual paps and pelvic exams
    4 Maternity care
    5 Birth – c-sections
    6 Hysterectomy
    7 Vault smears

    OB is a career choice because it’s a guaranteed income not because birth is an “amazing feat”.

  70. I know I’m writing this a few years too late, but I’m a 19 year old that just had her first pelvic exam done today. I read this article before I went in and panicked. I requested that I see a female doctor at the med. center, and they were extremely understanding. They even gave me a little bit of background info on her. So I went in and spoke to her for a while before my clothes even came off. She introduced herself and she was extremely pleasant. She said that I shouldn’t expect to get a pap done until I was at least 21. Right away I felt very comfortable with her, so much so that in between all serious talk we giggled at some stuff. Then she went through everything that was gonna be done, she took out the gown and the sheet and handed it to me. She even let me know that I could just come back another day if I felt too nervous, although she said that it was very normal. She has these super kind eyes, and it was super easy to trust her with my body. She came back with the nurse and once again made some conversation with me, which helped a lot to calm my nerves. All throughout the test she told me exactly what she was doing. “I’m just gonna look at the skin here” “you’re gonna feel my hand on your thigh” “this is the speculum, it goes in this much and I’m gonna open it about this much” “you’re gonna feel pressure” “I’m gonna do a bimanual test, this means I’m gonna insert two fingers and put my hand on your belly to feel your uterus. You should feel pressure and maybe a little like you have to pee, but no pain. If there’s pain let me know and we’ll stop” and so on. I guess what I’m trying to get to is that the gender of the doctor doesn’t matter. You just need to make sure to listen to your gut feeling about your doctor and if you don’t feel 100% in control, or 100% comfortable (regardless of usual nervousness) then get the F out of there. I went in expecting the worst and came back to this website just for that. There certainly are ob/gyns that are crooks, but not all doctors are that way. It’s like saying that because of ISIS all muslims are planning to blow you up. Or because of that one cop that tassered that one guy, all cops are bad. That’s not true. Just listen to your gut. Do your research. Even my mom said she was extremely pleasantly surprised with my doctor. She said that she’s never met any doctor that was so open and so thorough with explaining. I’m definitely going back to her to get the IUD and such.

    • If you were surprised to get a doctor who acted professional, it just shows in what terrible state of affairs this entire industry is. A patient shouldn’t go to a doctor feeling scared and then be pleasantly surprised that the doctor didn’t turn out to be a bully or a pervert.

    • Id be careful with geting that Iud. Esp if you never had children. I herd from lots of woman insertions are extreamly painfull. Do your research. I herd to many horror stories from family. Its also a way to keep woman comming back in.

  71. Unless you have symptoms from my reading pelvic exams are useless and just became standard of care. She might be a nice person but her profession is pushing outdated unnecessary wxams on woman . Sorry I dont think you get the point.

    • How dare you appeal to my ignorance. So many people here say that doctors appeal to ignorance because the patients don’t know any better and you’re doing the same thing to me. “You don’t get the point” of course I get the point. The fact that I’m 19 doesn’t make me a retard. I know my body and I do what I think is best to do with my body. I never said I didn’t have any symptoms. And the obgyn profession is faaaaar from outdated. You just don’t hear about the cases where an ob/gyn did their job correctly and actually helped someone because they see body parts that are considered taboos to talk about, so people won’t generally tell you. You’re more likely to write something about a negative experience than you are to a positive one

      • You dont get my point. And you sound immature. You made a coment about your mom and if you were so reluctant or scared to go to a gyn why did you go? You never said anything about symptoms . I keep hearing all woman must go to a gyn that I have a problem with. People
        telling woman what we should allow for are own good. Why are you hear if you you think your gyn is so wonderful and helped you? Thats not the case with most woman I know. The father of gynecology was murder he inslaved black woman in the south and forced them to have sergery without pain relief . The speculum is the most barberic disturbing invention. Sorry your not going to change my mind. Its your body have all the exams you want.

      • You dont know me so how whould you know if im “ignorant “. We dont see eye to eye so no need for us to talk any further. I wont be addressing any more of your brainwashed mentally.

  72. I cant stand when mothers push/set up appointments for their daughters. These woman are brainwashed and honestly think there child needs these exams. Ask the daughter weather she had a say in it or was it to please her mother this happens even after girls are over age and its sick.

    • What makes you think my mother made me schedule it? She did not. It was my choice. I had concerns, so I went to the doctor. My mother was just there for moral support and so I wouldn’t have to be alone

      • For your own good Alex – listen to Kleigh and the thousands of comments on this site who against this perversion and are not wrong. Don’t take this the wrong way because our site is about empowerment: I think you are immature Alex and you need to eat your pride and listen as Kleigh and everyone else that champions this site only has your back. Just listen to your description of your appointment. She gave you the script that you shouldn’t have an exam until you were 21 – but she still did it. She talked to you as if you were a little child; you saw her as a child: “She has these super kind eyes, and it was super easy to trust her with my body. She came back with the nurse and once again made some conversation with me, which helped a lot to calm my nerves. All throughout the test she told me exactly what she was doing. “I’m just gonna look at the skin here” “you’re gonna feel my hand on your thigh” “this is the speculum, it goes in this much and I’m gonna open it about this much” “you’re gonna feel pressure” “I’m gonna do a bimanual test, this means I’m gonna insert two fingers and put my hand on your BELLY to feel your uterus. You should feel pressure and maybe a little like you have to pee, but no pain. If there’s pain let me know and we’ll stop” and so on.”

        If you’re such a grown 19 year old woman making your own, choices, then why does another grown woman talking to you like a little girl make you feel good about yourself; about your visit. You get two points for not seeing a perverted male, but now that you know nothing is wrong with you – don’t go back. Realize that the doctor is not necessarily okay and is trying to get you to come back to do more (useless, fake) exams. You do remember that she is paid to do that. And when you left, she then talked to and put her hands up another woman, and another woman, and another woman the same way. I hate to break it to you, but you were not that special to her; more like a used rag. You have to ask yourself, the mature woman that you are, why there are so may advances in medicine – robotic surgery; laparoscopic surgery; artificial hearts; MRIs, CAT scans, even Xrays…….but STILL for women the perverted gynecologists INSIST that the best way to examine a woman is to have her in such a barbaric position – half naked exposed, and that they HAVE to put two fingers in you to diagnose you??? It’s perversion. Your female doctor is only following what her male predecessors do and she gets paid for it, so it’s in her best interest to make you feel that what she is doing is okay and for your own good. It’s because countless women have been shamed into thinking this is how it has to be instead of demanding more advanced ways of testing; self testing. Doctors can’t diagnose anything by feeling you up – but they can tell how lubricated you get when they do the bimanual, rectovaginal, transvaginal, and anything else you are gullible enough to let them do. They STILL have to send you for an MRI, CAT scan, blood test before they know for sure what is wrong, so with all the advances in medicine, ask yourself, why do they still do this??? And for the Lord’s sake; YOU DO NOT NEED TO GET A PAP SMEAR TO GET BIRTH CONTROL. THINK FOR YOURSELF, before you go through years of shame and abuse as these women on this site have. By then you can’t take back that rape feeling – all you can do is go on and forgive yourself for being so foolish and become a fighter against this sham of a profession.

        Please be Blessed.

  73. Speaking in general dont jump to conclutions. I was speaking about alot of girls I know who were forced I never came forward and said you were thank you.

    • Alax, kleigh and the other’s are right. There’s a couple very good posts further on in this site, women’s vaginas don’t need yearly supervision after all
      And also why are doctors sticking their fi gets in women’s vaginas which quoted doctors being unsure why they did..they just did it!! Also pointed out that the bimanual exam really can’t find much of anything and is pointless! It’s your body! But if that’s medicine I want none of it!!

  74. Me ether. I also wonder why a sonagram on the abodoman cant be used in cases where a woman has symptoms rather than going internal with a speculum. With today’s technology theiris no excuse gor this other than most woman dont complan and just ho along with whatever. And it seems like they could get a better view with that type of equipment. So basically what i have read they have to do pelvics on all woman even tho thier is no meadical reason to do so. And i was told by another comenter that gynocology is not outdated lol.

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