Incidence of sexual abuse within health care is estimated to rival levels found within the church and other major institutions, but people who are sexually abused by doctors and other health care workers within the context of health care are faced with many unique barriers that are not present in other settings. Some of the barriers include difficulties distinguishing what constitutes sexual abuse, a decreased ability to prevent sexual abuse from occurring, and a lack of support and justice for instances when sexual abuse has taken place.
Recognizing sexual abuse
Recognizing sexual abuse within the context of health care can be difficult. It can be difficult to distinguish between health care and sexual abuse when routine examinations involve genitals and other sexual areas of the body. But it is the very nature of these exams that places doctors and other health care workers in a privileged and unique position to disguise sexual abuse as something else. For example, doctors are able to perform exams such as vaginal/rectal/breast exams when they are medically unnecessary, and to then defend their actions by claiming they were being “thorough”, or that they were done for the woman’s own good. And it can be very difficult to prove otherwise except in rare instances. For example, Dr. Stanley Chung was brought before the College of Physicians and Surgeons on allegations of frequent and unnecessary rectal and vaginal exams on women, some of whom were virgins.
It can also be difficult to determine when the line from appropriate behavior to inappropriate behavior during an examination has been crossed, especially if the sexual act is subtle. For instance when the doctor’s hand brushes against a breast as if by accident, or the doctor’s fingers linger a bit too long inside the vagina during a bimanual exam. In these instances the woman only has her hunches and instincts to support her suspicions. In other cases it is fairly obvious when the line has been crossed, such as instances where it is obvious that exams are not medically necessary. For example, a commenter on this site stated: “When I was thirteen my mom suspected I might have a kidney infection and took me in to see a urologist. He told me to cross my arms over my head, held my arms down, removed the paper shield and did a breast exam on me while I was fighting against him.” April 4, 2013 at 4:23 pm Clearly a thirteen year old girl would be considered as not being at risk of breast cancer. Another example is the court case of Wasserman versus Ms. Gugel:
Ms. Gugel alleges the doctor took her into an examination room and sexually assaulted her upon the conclusion of his “consultation only” appointment. The doctor claims the alleged sexual assault was actually part of a legitimate medical examination, even though he had already examined her the previous day . . . The doctor also contends the alleged sexual assault was part of a legitimate examination despite his not wearing examination gloves, his smelling his finger after using it to touch Ms. Gugel’s vulva and inserting it into her vagina, and his subsequent sexually harassing phone calls to Ms. Gugel, which were recorded.
Prevention
Preventing sexual abuse within the context of health care can be difficult. Many women have the reasonable expectation they will be able to trust their health care providers and sexual abuse is not something that is likely to be on a woman’s radar. However, even when distrust of a health care provider is present, the lack of informed consent involving intimate examinations provides little opportunity for a woman to avoid them. In fact, the current situation in women’s health allows for coercion to the point of bullying and the withholding of medications and other health services when women wish to decline pelvic exams/pap tests/STD testing. The power imbalance that is already present in the doctor/patient relationship becomes even more pronounced when a woman feels pressured into invasive exams or is unaware she has the right to say ‘no’, and the opportunity to prevent sexual abuse becomes extremely remote. In addition, the coercion that is the norm in women’s health care allows increased opportunity for predatory behavior and sexual abuse on the part of doctors and other health care providers.
Lack of support and justice
The effects from having been sexually abused by someone in a position of trust can be devastating. Dr. Gerald Monk, a professor at San Diego State University, states “Patients can feel especially violated in the context of health care. Not only do patients anticipate being safe and secure, they expect to be healed. Following an adverse medical event, a patient may experience a lifetime of heartbreaking anguish and suffering.” Juan Mendez in his work with the Human Rights Association compares some unnecessary medical procedures to torture and states, “medical care that causes severe suffering for no justifiable reason can be considered cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, and if there is state involvement and specific intent, it is torture.”
Some women who have been sexually abused by a doctor are not even sure what to call it, and in fact sexual abuse when committed by doctors is assigned special terminology and renamed as “medical misconduct”. When some women attempt to seek help they are often met with a white wall of silence and discover that denial and persistent altercation of the facts are prevalent. Sanda Rogers, University of Ontario law faculty, in her discussion of failed promise of reform regarding sexual abuse by health care professionals, states: “Patients report abuse. The evidence is there, as is the evidence that abuse is seriously under reported. The legislation provides the health disciplines with the tools necessary to respond to the abuse perpetrated by some members. Instead, the College of Physicians and Surgeons and other Colleges, have failed to ensure that complainants are provided with the support necessary to assist them to survive the process of complaint, investigation and hearing. The drop off rate on complaints by the CPSO, and by other Colleges, is such that almost no complaints and few complaints of sexual misconduct and abuse proceed to a full hearing. Each stage of the process favors the professional and undermines the complainant.” Sanda also states that complainants who were interviewed by the College members found the complaint process “an amplification of an already traumatic experience“.
As a result, doctors and other health care providers are often left free to continue abusing for years even after complaints against them are made. Dr. Alan Cockeram and Dr. George Doodnaught are just two examples of cases where many women filed complaints and they were ignored.
Sexual abuse under the guise of health care presents many barriers and can have devastating effects. Sanda states that “Abuse in the guise of care, enabled by professional status, access and patient vulnerability and dependency, is an insidious and terrible breach of trust and an unconscionable and violent abuse of power and authority“. Women are often placed in positions where they are vulnerable and left with limited resources to protect themselves from sexual abuse by health care providers. The women who have been abused and who find the courage to complain are led through a process that often only fails them. In addition, women who have been faced with such experiences are left in a place where health care can be viewed as a threat to their personal safety and psychological stability. In other words, these women are left to cope in a society where health care, for them, does not exist.
forwomenseyesonly 
Your blog is SO important!! Kudos to you~
That is so nice, thank you Cindy 🙂
Sue,
Another excellent article. I agree that recognizing abuse within the context of healthcare is fraught with difficulty, particularly as the system is loaded in favour of doctors. Take the situation here in the UK; our GPs have financial incentives in place to screen a sizeable percentage of their female patients with regard to cervical screening. If a woman is ‘overdue’ for a smear test and attends her doctor’s surgery for an unrelated problem, she stands a good chance of being ambushed in an opportunistic attempt to get her to screen there and then. Not only does this negate informed consent, the woman is coerced into removing her underwear and submitting to an extremely intimate examination that she is not prepared for. For a sexual predator this presents many ‘legitimate’ opportunities to coerce women into intimate examinations. The very same system that encourages these opportunistic screenings also protects these doctors if the woman complains. After all, he was only ‘following guidelines’.
Thank you Chrissy. Yes, it provides perfect opportunity for sexual predators, and they are well protected by the system as it currently is. What I find interesting is how in most cases where the futility and lack of evidence to support paps and vaginal exams is highlighted, it is done so by women. For example, the “bimanual” exam is futile, and the evidence proves that no abnormality has ever been accurately detected by inserting fingers into a woman’s vagina. So a bimanual exam is pointless, but this “exam” is done as a matter of routine: http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/jwh.2010.2349 It is mainly the women in medicine, law, and academia who are attempting to educate the public regarding the futility and lack of evidence to support much of what is being done to women in the name of “health care”. Cervical cancer is rare, but women are not being told this simple fact. Many women are not even being told why a pap smear is done in the first place.
Thank you for writing this. today woman are expected to agree to pap smears and other gyn care. I think one of the resons why doctors think it is okay to force this on woman is beacuse of the way doctors are being taught not to see these exams as sexuall or intamte. to many woman these exams are sexuall and unacceptable. It scares me how much control doctors are given. for example every time a woman goes to a doctor for any thing even a none gyn related problem. it is a ruten question hear in the US to ask. When was your last pap smear? the question itself implys we were expected to have had one nad they want a date to recodr.Like it is a requerment to have them. I have always hated that. I dont want to have pap esre smears. I was yelled at by a nurse once for admiting That at 24 I had not had one. she belittled me and yelled saying that it was not good and woman are indanger because we have preiod ands are bodys are so complex. Itw as like she felt she had a right to tell me not having pap smears was wrong and bad. I hope that one day this wille be in the news and that there will be a law to protect woman that chosise not to have this intamate screening. I do not understand why men are given a chios with there screnning. I have never heard a doctor refusea man unrelated care until they complyed.
It was totally unacceptable behaviour of that nurse to yell at you, for whatever reason. Especially about cancer screening (which is OPTIONAL and ELECTIVE). And especially after it has been proven by researchers that pap smears before age of 30 are 100% HARMFUL (after age of 30 they become 95% harmful, because 95% of women over 30 are HPV-negative and cannot possibly benefit from pap smears. Agreeing to pap smears only puts them in danger of painful over-diagnosis and over-treatment).
“doctors are being taught not to see these exams as sexuall or intamte. to many woman these exams are sexuall and unacceptable”
This is absolutely true! While the system is rife with opportunity for doctors to deliberately abuse (and laws that exempt medical exams from rape definitions don’t help!), there are probably more situations where a woman legitimately feels sexually violated, but the care provider did not have any sexual intent. When this happens is often when a woman has refused an intimate exam, but then is either bullied into submitting, or is physically restrained and forced to submit. As a birth doula, I’ve seen both situations happen. The doctors feel justified in what they are doing because “its for the good of the baby/woman.” But they absolutely need to be trained that women should be treated as autonomous individuals, and coerced consent is NOT consent, it is assault.
Thank you for writing this. there really needs to be a law put into place to protect woman who do not wish to have intamate screening. there should never be any hassasment or refused care on the basses that a unrelated intamte exam was refused. it scares me how much power doctors have over woman. for example that question that is asked to all woman that go to a doctor for any reson is “when was your last pap smear.” this inplys woman were expected to have had on and they demande a date to record. that question underminds informed concent.
Kleigh I so agree with you! Informed consent is a basic human right but it is routinely withheld in women’s health care. If you were to take a vaginal exam out of the context of a medical setting it becomes easier to see how ludicrous it is. Say a woman is in her own home and a doctor making a house call is telling her she cannot have birth control pills until she agrees to remove her clothing, spread her legs, and allow him to insert fingers and a speculum into her vagina. When you imagine the woman in her home, lying on a couch or a bed, and she is being coerced into allowing the man to insert fingers and objects into her vagina – then it is easier to see it for what it is. The fact that a pelvic exam is not medically indicated for birth control pills is well known – yet doctors continue to withhold them until women submit to vaginal exams.
This was a very well written article. As you know, we have tips about how women can prevent sexual abuse at http://www.sexualmisconductbydoctors.com/femaletips.aspx. I would like to put a link to this article on our links page. I think everyone should read this article.
I wanted to also mention that women can easily be sexually abused once they are put under anesthesia even if they had knee or hand surgery because many medical facilities demand that they be nude.
Thank you Patient Modesty for the nice compliment, and thank you also for providing the link to excellent tips on how to prevent sexual abuse. I’m glad to have an opportunity to tell you that I admired your article titled “Modesty During Hysterectomy”, and appreciated how it revealed some very interesting and important information, such as in this excerpt from the article:
Patients are often given Versed or other sedatives prior to entering the Operating Room to alleviate stress and help you to relax. While Versed is an anti-anxiety medication, it also has a powerful amnesia effect. Versed is also known as a date-rape drug. It is used to make a person compliant and induces conscious sedation. It causes a person to not remember. It’s a dangerous drug which is not in the best interest of patients. Many patients will not be able to remember anything while under its influence. If you’re given Versed prior to being brought into the Operating Room, you will likely not remember who is in the room, being placed on the OR table or being prepared for anesthesia. So while the doctor may say you will be “awake,” be sure to clarify what that means. Further, once surgery is over, you will likely be give few more doses of Versed, again that means you will likely not remember being in the PACU.
One hysterectomy patient who spoke up that she did not want any male medical personnel present was given Versed so she could not advocate for herself. She ended up with a male anesthesiologist, a male assistant, and a male circulating nurse against her wishes. You are no longer able to advocate for yourself once you are given Versed because it causes you to have a powerful amnesia effect. Versed gives medical personnel the opportunities to do many things without your consent. Versed also legally invalidates any patient testimony regarding their treatment.
http://patientmodesty.org/hysterectomymodesty.aspx
The fact that being given Versed will render any complaint made by the patient after surgery invalid in a court of law is vital to know – before going into surgery. If there is sexual abuse at any time after being given Versed, the woman will not be able to do anything about it. That is so disturbing.
Thank you for your positive feedback on the hysterectomy article! I could not stay silent on this subject because a lady contacted us about her horrible experience when she had a hysterectomy in Utah. I am planning on writing additional articles in the future. I look forward to additional articles you will write in the future as well.
Thank you for this article. It’s important to note that one of the key components of the definition of abuse is being touched/encroached upon against one’s consent (or without the ability to consent) and this definitely happens in the medical profession.
Case in point: this one involves a male patient but it is a good example. This man was vehemently opposed to having a rectal exam in the ER. Instead of respecting that, they held him down and gave him drugs so they could perform the exam…and then had him arrested for “assaulting” a doctor. The dichotomy there is that they claimed he was not in the right state of mind to agree or refuse the exam, but that he WAS in the right state of mind to assault the doctor!
Unfortunately a jury decided that this was not sexual assault – something I feel is wrong.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/forced-rectal-exam-stirs-ethics-questions/
http://www.clinicalcorrelations.org/?p=687
This was a horrible case. There was actually no reason for a rectal examination to be done on this man. I am really disappointed that the man lost his case. If I had been on the jury, I would have worked hard to convince other jury members that this was in fact wrong. Tort law is supposed to protect a patient from non-consensual exams and touching.
Sue, I so love your blog!! I think most women who find your blog are shocked into backing up their doctors until they realize what you’re saying is true. I’ve got a few stories that’ll make your stand up, gray and fall out. I really thought I was the only one who thought the OBGYN field was a joke. Glad to know my PTSD from past experiences aren’t all “in my head”.
OverItAll thank you. It’s validating to discover you are not alone (far from it) in recognizing or experiencing harmful and trauma inducing medical practices. I’m glad you know the PTSD from past experiences aren’t all in your head and it’s sad and awful that you would have been led to think that in the first place.
Hi,
Great post!
Your comments about the “white wall of silence” and the link to Sanda Roger’s material were very revealing and her analysis of the issue was excellent in pointing to how the deck is stacked against patients and strongly protective of physicians.
I found a thoughtful piece written by a physician a few years ago that seems to echo your general point. The article is titled “Stop Medical Malpractice: The White Coat Wall of Silence”,
Michael Kirsch, MD states:
“… my friend LG correctly points out that we physicians are not effective or serious at holding our members accountable. Sure, every state has a medical board, but we all know how egregious an offense must be to result in a serious professional sanction. It is not part of medical culture to identify colleagues who have demonstrated competency lapses, committed a negligent act or may be impaired. Recall the adage, ‘friends don’t let friends drive drunk’. Physicians don’t turn in colleagues who may be in need of remediation and rehabilitation, except in extreme circumstances.” The full article and subsequent discussion can be found at:
http://mdwhistleblower.blogspot.com/2010/08/stop-medical-malpractice-white-coat.html
Like the physician quoted in your article “The Other Side of the Speculum”, this open and honest comment by a physician acknowledges a problem that is usually denied by the dominant medical culture. As Dr. Kirsch’s blog suggests, the “white wall” culture represents a problem that needs to be addressed, not denied.
This is very concerning. I believe thwt I was sexually assaulted by a surgeon during an examination. He was not the surgeon who performed my procedure. They are not even in the same practice. But are members of an elite group of specialists. I was going to report the incident to my real surgeon but I am now afraid that he will not support me. How should I approach it with him? Honestly I would rather speak to the PA in the practice about it but I do not know if my appointment is with the surgeon or the PA. To be honest, I wonder if the surgeon will think I am crazy and dismiss me from his practice. I should point out that I once sued an employer for sexual harassment. During the process, they called my character into question and distorted many things. I was victimized in a whole new way. I felt like I was portrayed as asking for it or deserving of it. So you know the saying, once bitten twice shy.
One of Medical Patient Modesty’s goals is to educate patients about how to have as much modesty as possible for surgeries. There is no reason for underwear to be removed for many surgeries that do not involve the genitals. It is important for patients to know what body parts will be exposed for each surgery so they can make a request for all same gender team if necessary.
Please take a look at an article I just put up about modesty concerns during gallbladder removal surgery. It is possible to wear underwear and shorts (as long as there is no metal) for this type of surgery. There is no need to have an urinary catheter inserted for this surgery since it only takes about an hour. I also included a link about gallbladder surgery alternatives that people can check out before they consent to surgery.
If a male patient is allowed to keep his shorts and/ or underwear on for this type of surgery, there would be no modesty concerns since only his chest and belly would have to be exposed. Male patients still need to take precautions to make sure that their underwear and shorts are not removed and that urinary catheter is not inserted.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for a female patient to wear a bra to cover her breasts for the surgery since gallbladder is located so close to the breasts. A female patient who does not want any men to see her breasts will need to select a female general surgeon, a female anesthesiologist or nurse anesthetist, female scrub technicians, and female nurses.
As many of you may know, female surgeons are much harder to find than female gynecologists. You usually can find several female general surgeons in big cities. This is a big challenge for women who may live 200 miles or more away from a big city. A lady may have to drive a long distance, but it is worth it.
Too many women have been sexually abused by male doctors or nurses while they were under anesthesia. Look at this terrible case for example: http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/07/people-bite-down-under-sedation-says-defence-witness-in-trial-of-doctor-charged-with-forcing-oral-sex-on-patients/.
The link to the gallbladder surgery can be found at http://patientmodesty.org/gallbladdermodesty.aspx.
Patient Modesty thank you linking this excellent article. I think many women (and men) are unaware of the dangers they face when they are put under anesthesia. Your site has potential to help so many people to prevent sexual abuse from occurring, and prevention is key because once abuse has already occurred it is virtually impossible to prove/obtain justice. You have probably already seen this article but if not you will most likely find it interesting. Also if you click on the home page after reading about the “love surgeon” there is information regarding the white wall of silence: http://www.patient-safety.com/burt.htm
Thank you for the link!! I actually had not seen this article.
Look at some very important sentences in the article:
The private investigator was able to persuade her that now that she was retired, her career could not be effected by speaking. So she finally spoke.
In other words, she and other nurses allowed this to go on for decades in order to preserve their careers.
This is exactly why a nurse often does not protect a patient.
Misty
Thank you for writing this blog. I am so glad that I stumbled upon it. I have shared a link to your blog on my Facebook Page. I am 63 years old… I wished I had known these facts 45 years ago! (Gee…writing that made me reflect on how old I am! LOL) When I was 18 I had my first pelvic exam– I nearly went through the roof! It was the most painful experience I have ever had in my life! Every female in our family and relation has either overdue menstrual cycles or cycles that never quit! The doctor’s manner towards me was horrific and his exam was brutal. I think we have to be conscious of the fact always, that doctors are human beings and not gods or goddesses.We have a right to ask questions; we have a right to say “No” to a procedure. Thank you for the knowledge that you are providing.
Johannisthinking, unfortunately many women are not aware they have the right to say “no thank you” to any and all procedures they do not want to have. In my opinion it is very unethical of doctors to withhold informed consent regarding penetrative exams, or any exams. It is this type of unethical behavior on the part of some doctors that can result in so much suffering. Thank you very much for your kind words and for linking me on your Facebook Page. I wish you had known these facts 45 years ago too.
I wanted to let you all know that one lady who had acid reflux avoided an unnecessary colonoscopy because she changed her diet at the encouragement of a friend at http://patientmodesty.org/acidreflux.aspx. Too many women have been sexually abused when they undergo colonoscopies by male doctors.
I have written a new article about Versed and Conscious Sedation at http://patientmodesty.org/versed.aspx.
Most people have no idea what Versed is. Medical professionals do not tell patients the truth about Versed. This drug has a powerful amnesiac effect. This is perfect for sexual predators in medical settings.
Misty I did not know that the drug Versed had such potential to cause so much harm to patients undergoing surgery or other procedures. It is very upsetting to read about doctors refusing to have Versed themselves while at the same time administering it to their patients, and often without even telling the patients they are being given Versed. I agree that the only way a woman (or man) can guarantee their wishes will be respected is to insist on having a family member or significant other to act as a chaperone, and to not leave the side of the person being put under sedation for surgery or other procedures. There have been many accounts from patients I have read about where their written and verbal requests were not respected, and also about patients being sexually assaulted while under sedation. It is also very upsetting to know that being given Versed will automatically invalidate the patient’s account of the assault and/or testimony in a court of law. Saying “no” to Versed and insisting on a chaperone is the best way to guarantee safety during surgery.
Sue,
Thank you so much for your positive feedback! No one in my family actually knew what Versed was until I educated them about it. I decided to do research on Versed after I got a terrible case from a woman who had hysterectomy who had requested an all female team. Look at the case of Maggie from Utah (http://www.patientmodesty.org/Case.aspx?GID=1). She made it clear that she did not want any males to be involved in her surgery. A male anesthesiologist gave her Versed so she could no longer speak up. I wish that her husband could have stayed with her the whole time to protect her.
I also wrote an article about how hysterectomies are often unnecessary at http://patientmodesty.org/unnecessaryhysterectomy.aspx. I am very concerned about the high rates of hysterectomies in the United States.
Misty
We also have a new article about colonoscopy at http://patientmodesty.org/colonoscopymodesty.aspx. If a woman must have a colonoscopy, she should select a female doctor. Some male doctors have sexually abused women they did colonoscopies on.
Misty, you have been doing wonderful work and posting such great articles. In addition to the ones you have linked here, this one is also much appreciated: http://patientprivacyreview.blogspot.ca/2012/03/same-gender-maternity-care-by-misty.html This excerpt from your article is so sad and so true: “All too often families have their wishes for modesty violated as they gave birth. The birth of your child should be a joyful time and it is tragic how violations of modesty have made birth experiences traumatic.” I agree it should be a joyful time and don’t understand why a woman is expected to tolerate groups of strangers staring at her in her most intimate moments. A woman in a different setting would not be expected to tolerate groups of strangers watch her lying on her back, naked and with legs spread apart. Her vagina being put on display for all to see feels the same regardless of the setting – just because it is called a “hospital” does not make it feel any less violating or dehumanizing.
Sue,
Thank you for your positive feedback! Too many women have had horrible birthing experiences. One of my friends was supposed to have her baby with a midwife, but her baby was breech so she ended up having a C-Section. She got her wishes for a female doctor, but this doctor was very insensitive because she ignored my friends’ wishes that no medical students be present. Sadly, my friend decided to not have any more children because of this bad experience.
Misty
Sue,
I am impressed with the research you’ve done for the articles you put up. I hope that many women will use the resources we have provided to protect themselves in medical settings. I would love to see if you could give some feedback on two articles I’ve written. They are just rough draft versions. I am sure I’ve probably missed some things.
1.) What You Should Know About All-Female OB/GYN Practices? – http://patientmodesty.org/allfemalepractices.aspx. It was very difficult for me because I wanted to believe that you were always safe at an all female practice. My perspective really changed after a lady was sexually abused by a new male doctor that an all female ob/gyn practice hired. What did you think about the way I wrote the lady’s story?
2.) Why Women Should Avoid Male Doctors For Intimate Female Health Issues – http://patientmodesty.org/avoidmaledocs.aspx. What do you think about the reasons I listed? Can you think of any other reasons?
Do you see any typos in those articles? Do you have suggestions about how to improve those articles. Female doctors can be very insensitive. I strongly believe that there should always be informed patient consent for pap smears and other gynecological examinations. Women should never be forced to have a gynecological examination even by a female doctor. You can email me at http://www.patientmodesty.org/contact.aspx.
Misty
Misty I am pleased you asked for my feedback on your two new articles. They are both very well written, flow nicely, and get your points across succinctly and comprehensively. The only typo I could find was in this sentence: “The practice consulted with their lawyers and decided that they would rather (to) compensate the lady for what happened rather than going to trial due to bad publicity they would get”, which I have bracketed. You may want to take another look as my own proofreading skills are not always topnotch. The links you have provided are very enlightening and support your points very well, you have done excellent research. There are many steps involved when ensuring your wishes are respected regarding same gender care and I am impressed with how you are working to cover them all. I like how you wrote the lady’s story as it is will surely help to forewarn others, and help to prevent this from happening to them.
I completely agree with what you wrote: “It’s always a risk to allow a male doctor to do intimate procedures such as colonoscopies, pelvic exams, pap smears, rectal exams, and breast exams on you. Countless male doctors have sexually abused female patients”. It seems with so many news articles about sexual assault by doctors that incidence is increasing, but it may in fact be due to more women coming forward with complaints. It is wonderful you are tackling this important topic and working to enlighten people and prevent harm.
My only suggestion would be to include, somewhere in your article regarding same gender care, what you have written above: “I strongly believe that there should always be informed patient consent for pap smears and other gynecological examinations. Women should never be forced to have a gynecological examination even by a female doctor”. So true. Women should be offered informed consent, every time. This would help to prevent sexual abuse as well. Unfortunately, many women are not aware they have the right to say “no” to intimate exams.
Sue,
Thank you so much for your positive feedback! I added one important part to the article about why women should avoid male gynecologists (http://patientmodesty.org/avoidmaledocs.aspx). Many women are unaware that they may be required to sign a dual provider agreement in a practice with a male gynecologist and a female Nurse Practitioner. This means the male doctor could end up being part of her appointment with a female doctor. Many women sign forms without really reading them. Look at an example of dual provider agreement at http://patientmodesty.org/Duel%20Provider%20Patient%20Care%20Policy.pdf.
Misty
I really appreciate the excellent points that Zsuzsanna made on her blog about male gynecologists in response to Miranda who said that she had a rough female ob and a gentle male ob. Miranda preferred a male doctor, but she failed to realize that many “gentle” male doctors actually sexually abuse women.
You can see her excellent points on March 2, 2010 at 7:36 PM: http://stevenandersonfamily.blogspot.com/2010/03/you-found-me-how.html
Misty
I went through this recently. The physician was very nice and gentle during my two exams with him. Even his touch was delicate. I was very confused – his “nice” manner cloaked his sexualizing of my exam, making it seem as if it was part of the routine care. But I had this sickening feeling in my stomach that I had been fondled. I have never felt like that after any exam with a physician male or female. I had to process through this with the help of a physician friend, a female friend who is a survivor, and volunteers from TELL and RAIIN.
I am not sure how many of you have seen this article about a 14 year old virgin girl who was abused by a male doctor who did a pap smear on her at http://www.randombabble.com/2010/09/01/medical-autonomy-chronicles-the-virgin-pap-smear/. This is exactly why mothers need to be educated about why they should never take their daughters to male doctors for female health issues. I noticed that some women from forwomenseyesonly commented on this article. Check out an article, Tips for Parents of Teenagers at http://patientmodesty.org/teenagers.aspx.
I wanted to let everyone know that there was a very disturbing picture of a female patient who was being prepped and positioned for surgery on the front of Outpatient Surgery magazine for June 2013 at http://outpatientsurgery.uberflip.com/i/134982/0. It looks like she is having hip surgery.
Most doctors and nurses won’t even tell you how much you will be exposed while you are under anesthesia. I noticed that all of the 3 medical professionals in this picture are men. If you zoom in, you can see a little of the lady’s pubic hair. You also will notice that she has an urinary catheter. I wonder if she was asked for consent about the urinary catheter. It was probably unnecessary. It is very likely that one of those guys inserted the urinary catheter. This is sickening.
This is why we need to educate people about how much modesty they could lose once they go under anesthesia and how to get maximum amount of modesty.
What are your thoughts?
Misty
Misty, that picture is very disturbing. From information I’ve gathered (online and from speaking with someone who knows a retired OR nurse), as soon as the patient is put under sedation they are stripped completely naked. Women’s legs are put into stirrups and all of their orifices are probed. The reason for inspecting all orifices is apparently to ensure the patient does not have a recording device hidden anywhere, due to potential litigation following adverse events. A flexible rectal temperature probe is inserted into the rectum and taped in place. Usually the patient is kept completely naked throughout the surgery, but apparently this is dependent upon the surgeon’s preference. The surgeon will take pictures of his/her work after the operation, and these pictures could include the entire naked body. The patient is usually not aware that pictures have been taken. The patient is then transferred to a stretcher and wheeled into the recovery room. The patient is not always covered up prior to being wheeled (still unconscious and naked) into a public hallway on the way to the recovery room. In the recovery room other people are able to see the naked patient, and the patient may or may not be covered up prior to being moved into the recovery room bed by a group of staff. The patient might also have students practice pelvic/rectal exams while she/he is unconscious. I have no references to support all of what I’ve just written, but I personally feel it is true.
I’ve never heard about that! Is this with all surgery, or in relation to something specific? Also, what country is this? I remember hearing different things about having someone in the room with you (like family, not one of their friends). I don’t know why people trust doctors so much (doing that won’t make them more trustable- so there’s no reason for that to make you feel better). Another thing: People are always so curious what the doctor’s stance on something is (I can think of one for them to get into). It’s like giving them a chance to lie & use their certification to reinforce it. Another thing is that anytime they answer back, it’s like that’s always good enough for them. These doctors basically figure if they disregard something, they MAKE it unimportant. That and sick thrills, of course (not everything is complicated).
Alex I believe it is the case with all surgery involving anesthetic, and I was referring to Canada but it might be the same in other countries. I don’t, as I’ve said, have references to support all of what I wrote, but from my own experiences and in my own opinion I believe it to be true. Given how women are treated by some members of the medical community when they are fully aware and awake, I have no doubt there are some who take advantage of women in various ways when they are unconscious and helpless.
I found this disturbing snippet on allnurses.com:
“This is simple… read some of the posts on here. Post where a nurse talks about patients routinely being brought up from the ER naked for no reason. The post about the gyn calling a crowd over to look at a girls vagina only to talk about the way she shaves.(while she was under). A post about a doctor jiggling the body fat of a patient and singing a song about it while the nurses/techs all laughed.I also recall a post about a high school student watching a patient have a surgery as part of a program used to encourage students to enter the healthcare field . Thing is I’m CERTAIN the patient had no idea she was some kids “homework.” http://allnurses.com/operating-room-nursing/patient-modesty-concerns-196068-page18.html
And you have probably already read about the practice of pelvic exams done without consent on unconscious women: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/time-to-end-pelvic-exams-done-without-consent/article4325965/
Yes, any and all surgeries in hte US.
When I had my foot surgery in 2010, one of the clauses on the consent form said “permission granted for any exams (including gynecological in case of females)…”
I added my “rules” (below) on the consent/waiver and had ALL staff (even the janitors) sign, so I had proof they acknowledged it (I got a copy of this) AND had a VERY close friend who was present at all times watch the doctor.
My rules: my entire body will remain in the clothes I wear (sweatshirt and sweatpants) due to the intended surgical area (right foot) being already exposed. No students, no unnecessary exams (pelvic, breast, abdomen, etc), no urinary catheters (if you get general anesthesia, you’ll have to have a cath. I did my surgery with a drip similar to an epidural that made me drowsy), etc. My patient advocate (name) will be present and at my side at all times, even in emergency, and she will be free to view the surgery at all times. (she was washed and dressed in scrubs as if prepped for an emergency)
My friend actually watched the entire surgery. That’s how I found out the surgeon was so sloppy. I had to have a 2nd opinion dr give me an xray and that’s how I found out that the surgery was not only totally unnecessary but had jagged cuts ALL in and around the bones and the 2nd opinion dr also said he found evidence that my blood vessel had been “cut and repaired”! Needless to say, I’m still having nerve problems and pain in that foot.
READ THE FINE PRINT. ADD WHAT YOU WANT TO THE WAIVER/CONSENT, GET *ALL* STAFF TO SIGN IT AND GET A COPY OF IT.
And when I did MA, we practiced on the homeless who came into our clinic OR on patients anesthetized for unrelated reasons. We were BUSED in from our school to operating rooms for practice and this was 2009. I’m told they STILL do it to this day even with all the public knowing about this.
Wait, how did it work out that there was no probing done on you (you said any and all surgeries in the US)? I remember that Red Asphalt movie in high school (where they said they probed people to check for drugs & internal bleeding), but I was told that didn’t actually happen & it was just to scare kids. Then I heard of them doing rectal exams to check for spinal injuries, internal bleeding, and broken bones (and it’s not viable for any of that, apparently abdominal MRIs & CT scans are). What’s the situation on all of that? Where can one research the things that go on (not just in surgery, but the hospital in general). I know there’s official & unofficial situations (ex: catherizing someone because of a perceived attitude or they just don’t like them- apparently if they’re drunk or high, also). Sometimes someone just engages in an action and makes up a story later (maybe that it never happened). Connecting the dots seems very popular with doctors (even when the things they say constitute iatrogenic attack & don’t actually work out medically, anyway).
I’m also curious about emergency care situations & staying overnight with regard to patient advocacy. Someone’s not able to sign a form in that situation (or they might just consider them mentally unfit to make their own decisions- that happens just for arguing with them). They seem to have huge issues with non-blood relatives (not technically married, not close enough of a relation, no paperwork to prove it). The “visiting hours are over” line is another point. They try to get people to leave (or act like it’s their decision & you’re invading their home), and are now alone with a lower number of witnesses around.
Just curious: That MA you mentioned is a master’s degree for nursing, right?
MA is Medical Assistant. My school was very different from other MA courses. We were qualified to take the RN (registered nurse) state exam and become RNs instead of MA’s due to the course. MAs do NOT do exams, they’re supposed to do just blood pressure, passing tools and giving out meds (including injections). But my course was actually RN and taught by a NP (nurse-practitioner). I believe my school was doing this to see if they could get more qualified nurses in a shorter amount of time without compromising the necessary career qualifications because the state had a major decrease in nurses (we had over 40 patients per nurse at one point). The state was DESPERATE for nurses, so they created a “short cut”. We were in school or doing clinic 16+_ hours a day, 6-7 days a week (plus, at-home computer work where we practiced making appointments for patients around a group of dr’s lunches and “off time”).
I was not probed/poked because: 1. I was awake, I just couldn’t feel below my waist, and only a screen similar to a CSection blocked my view (I could have easily asked them to remove it). 2. My friend was standing at the surgical area, she watched everything and said not one article of clothing was ever taken off or pulled down. 3. I had it writing, but just having it in writing doesn’t stop the doctors from the unrelated exams. BUT having someone present and/or being awake DOES prevent it.
In emergency situations, the hospital will do what they feel is “necessary”. Like you said, there are legitimate situations where cath’s and exams are truly necessary. The “visiting hours” is a bit tricky. A partner (husband for example) is always allowed to stay overnight. Any argument over this should be sent to the head of the hospital. Again, you have to read the fine print. Always ask that your partner/advocate be dressed in scrubs ready for an emergency so they’ll be there. All patients have the right to an advocate, this can be a relative, friend, etc.
Ro: Most schools are *supposed* to use volunteers (typically homeless) or the teachers for practice OR, more recently, the students practice on each other. There’s really no excuse to use anesthetized people undergoing unrelated surgeries. And you ALWAYS have the right to modify the consent forms, all forms.
I was reading posts on a site where medical students were talking about performing other exams on those undergoing different surgeries, and apparently that has been illegalized in CA in the US. Students from CA were complaining about how they couldn’t get practice in for different types of exams because it had been outlawed and that hopefully the rest of the country wouldn’t follow suit (lawyers were being called a bunch of terrible things, but I thank those lawyers for defending the basic human rights of patients and I do hope that everywhere else follows suit if this is the case). I’m not sure where everything stands now, but I think the US is (hopefully) trying to put a stop to all of the unsolicited exams. Either way, it’s useful to know that you can make your own rules and have everyone at the practice sign it, as well as have someone of your choice in the room with you. However, I don’t understand how any sort of other procedures being performed while under anesthesia should be/is legal anywhere. It doesn’t make any sense and is clearly a violation. Furthermore, I feel like a lot of (you would be a better judge of this than me, considering you were a student) students probably feel a conflict of morals when performing unsolicited exams on patients. On that site where I was reading students’ comments, several of them said they felt terrible and wished they could just stick to performing and practicing exams on either the actors or willing patients. .
What state did your foot surgery happen in? That is wonderful you had your friend as an advocate. Did you have any resistance when you shared that your friend would be there for the surgery? Did you ever consider consulting with a medical malpractice lawyer? You had a good case because your friend witnessed what happened.
Misty
My surgery was in Florida. The doctor was totally ok with everything (having my friend there, me marking the contract, etc). But I think he was ok with it because my friend said she wanted to become a surgeon (she’s actually a law student! That’s how I found out about marking up the contract and getting everyone to sign it). I considered suing but ultimately decided against it. I have 3 very close lawyer friends who would have gone to court with me (pro bono too!) but I didn’t want to stay in FL anymore (I left FL within 6 months of surgery). I know my body, also. My body heals abnormally slow for no reason but it always goes back to normal eventually. I’m almost totally back to normal with just a scar. Winters are hard thought. I have arthritis (even at my under-25-age) and in the winter my foot “locks up” or a get a ping of numbness when I bend my toes up or under my foot or if I barely touch the scar. It’s nerve damage and scar tissue wrapped around the nerve. It won’t fully go away but the only options are more surgeries (to remove the scar tissue) or shots to shrink the scar tissue (but they cause permanent black/purple discoloration). I had a botched surgery, but I wanted to GTFO of that state
What do you mean? I was making a point about the those exams or catherizations being used as a pretense or a weapon (at the minimum it not being viable). I appreciate the other answers, but I didn’t get what you meant when you said “like you said.”
One possible way to avoid this situation is to have surgery at a specialty hospital. When I had my tonsils out with general anesthesia, I went to an ear/nose/throat hospital. No students. Not a teaching hospital. No gyns anywhere on property, since you had to be an ENT to have privileges at that hospital. They only did surgeries above the neck. They gave me a pair of drawstring scrub pants for the surgery along with my gown and wrapped me neck to toe in another drape over that on the table – if anyone had wanted to get to my genitals they would have had a tough time doing so. So – no catheter, no rectal probe, and no unwanted exams. I was very lucky.
Thanks, Diane. It really shouldn’t have to be this hard to not get attacked by people who are supposed to be countering a bad situation. It’s like a bodyguard snapping a protectee’s neck. It’s incompetence (as well as general antagonism) for someone in that situation to cause problems. I guess being a control-freak isn’t considered psychologically inadequate. I’ve heard people argue that you can just go to someone else, but you shouldn’t have to rely on luck to find that (or be liable to compensate for the doctor doing something they shouldn’t be doing in the first place). It’s like navigating a minefield (or covering all the bases in a legal cases- except in reverse).
It really is like doctor’s presume that they assume proprietorship of someone’s health & they can apply influnce to it at their discretion. Just because their occupation involves the human body, doesn’t make the body their occupational property! Acting like they have a right to act as they please at work is like thinking that it’s okay for a cab driver to decide that they’ll drop you off wherever the hell they feel like (and that it’s not kidnapping because they use occupational means to do it).
OverItAll,
I am sorry that you are having problems now. I wanted to let you know that urinary catheterizations are actually often unnecessary for patients who have general anesthesia. You can find an article I wrote about urinary catheterizations at http://patientmodesty.org/catheterizations.aspx.
Misty
I didn’t know that, learn something new every day! I’ll definitely read your article when the baby’s down, thanks for enlightening me! We were told in MA it was a must, especially if it was a pelvic surgery (laparoscopy for endo, for example). However, if you can’t walk (from an epidural for example), you’ll need a cath, because the bladder can stop/slow labor. This happened to me in my homebirth and I had to be cath’d for a few minutes, but immediately had my baby afterwards (in only 3 pushes!). Though I had VP/VCI and possibly PA, so those may have been partly at fault also. Thanks again, Misty!
Ugh. I’m so badly misinformed. Misty, excellent article (Honey took the baby for me). The medical field wants us just as dumb as patients I guess. Fabulous article. I’ll be sure to use it in my “informed refusal letter, if you don’t mind. This is just another reason I love sites/blogs like this!
Sorry, Alex!! I misread your post on my phone!!! I guess I’m more sleep-deprived than I thought. Anyways, you’re absolutely right that it’s used as a power trip. Amazing how one can belittle someone into being a “good little lamb”. I greatly apologize for the misunderstanding, off for bed finally. Maybe little boy will give me more than an hour of sleep tonight… 🙂
I appreciate this article more than you know! I have been abused by male and female doctors/nurse practioners. I’m a lot more difficult to abuse now but I still get weak thinking of the things that were done – that I and others I trusted allowed. Not again!
I agree! It would have been great if some people I was close to had heard these things in advance. Bodily autonomy isn’t exactly taught in school, and neither is real information (the risks & inaccuracies of a lot of things are completely omitted). I’m sorry to hear about whatever happened to you. Overall, any interface with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (visually or physically). I’d get pretty riled up whenever someone said something to the effect of “but,it’s a doctor” or “it’s not like that.” Not like what? Reality? A situation is what it consists of. (I said almost this exact same thing to somebody else on this site, and it felt good to be able to do so- whether it imparts knowledge that supports someone or it’s just being able to converse about things)
If you’re curious: the Boycotting thread & the Sensitive Examinations thread have a lot of things about counteracting an attack of an iatrogenic nature (abuse through medical methodology). There are also numerous books (Rosemary Gladstar writes a few & they have general use stuff, too) on “natural health maintence” (that seems like a good way to put it, since it’s not always herbal- uterine massage is a good-and, also, non-invasive- example).
A well-respected male gynecologist sexually abused a number of female patients in New York. See an article about this doctor at http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/sex-abuse-allegations-gynecologist-pile-article-1.1396843?localLinksEnabled=false. This is exactly why women should avoid male doctors for intimate female health issues.
Misty
Hi Misty,
Thanks for the link. This is a disturbing story for a few reasons:
1. The male doctor had a female nurse present, but apparently found a way to get away from her.
2. “Some of the women who have recently come forward will most likely be unable to join the lawsuit because the statute of limitations holds that the assault must have occurred within the previous year.” – As is the “white wall” that protects physicians isn’t strong enough.
3. And finally …. ” ‘What he’s done is pretty pervasive, for the last nine years,’ Bhukta said Thursday, adding that coverage of the suit by the Daily News spread word about the alleged assault.” How was this able to keep happening for 9 years? It says a lot (as is true for other similar cases that have resulted in convictions) about the culture that serves as a barrier to reporting and stopping such offenses.
In 2010 I had my 1st ever colonscopy. I was sedated. When I was waking up afterwards in the recovery room, I saw a large male nurse by me and his hand was fondling my crotch. I was shocked yet could not say anything because I was still partially sedated and still trying to fully wake up. Then he put his hand under my butt cheek and rubbed it. I was shocked. I did not say anything about it. Tried to push it back from my memory because I knew it would be my word against theirs. The memory has now resurfaced again and I am haunted by it. Have bouts where I cry and anxiety attacks. Would it be too late to even think about pressing charges?
That’s horrible! It seems to depend on where you are (statute of limitations seems to vary from state to state- if you’re in America). Don’t really know what the situation is with making things public (you might not be able to press charges successfully, but maybe the attempt gets things more noticable). I hope you get your just vengeance (maybe someone will do something like that to him)!
Just as a suggestion: I don’t mean to “grade” you or anything, but pushing something to the back of your memory might not help as it seems. I don’t know if this is what the situation is, but what I mean is to properly demonize something while still trying to enjoy things in your life. Sometimes people try to blow it off, basically (like saying “it’s nothing anyway”)- but that elevates the situation to a non-issue & the “person” that caused it to a much higher level than it actually deserves. It’ll always taste like a lie, but also like you’re helping an enemy. You might not purposefully wallow in anything or deliberately stop enjoying things in your life, but some things do tend to stick with you. You’re not “embracing” anything, but properly applying hostility.
I wanted to let everyone know about a case where a medical assistant spoke up about a doctor who sexually abused patients at http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/alleged-victim-speaks-out-against-fox-chapel-docto/nZC3K/. Most You all will notice that the medical assistant was scared to speak up because the doctor told her she would never get a job again.
I want to clarify one thing about this case. The medical assistant did not speak up about the abuse patients endured. She spoke up about how she was personally abused by the doctor. It seems like she came forward after some patients spoke up about the doctor abusing them. I bet she witnessed some patients being abused though.
Look at a very disturbing case of a pain management doctor who sexually abused women at http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/309266/45/Investigator-Patients-tell-of-sex-abuse-inside-pain-clinic–.
Thank you for these links Misty. Women who are under pain management might be even more vulnerable because of their need for medications. This post about a woman being raped by a doctor is disturbing also: http://lifeinfluxanddailyramblings.wordpress.com/2013/08/09/what-to-do-when-youve-been-raped/
How horrifying is this…
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-04/mumbai/36148439_1_sexual-assault-medical-examination-medical-evidence
Sexual assault is a BIG problem in India…
I was also, shocked to hear a lawyer acting for a man charged with rape (a pack rape situation) and assault of a young woman (resulting in her death) say to the media, “in my long career I’ve never heard of an honourable woman being raped”…victim blaming gone mad.
When these attitudes prevail, women are in a lot of danger….men know anything goes, and it’s ALWAYS the woman’s fault. (out late, dress too short etc.) It’s her conduct and appearance that will be judged.
You know there’s a group called the Red Brigade in India. It’s a group of women that go after men that are causing problems (like physically attacking them). I don’t remember the exact story, but Google them- you’ll probably be pleasantly suprised. India also has a lot of problems with Muslims on that level (some of it happens in India, but by them).
Alex the Red Brigade is very interesting: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/07/20/india-rape-vigilantes/2480491/ As no one else seems to be protecting women it is a brilliant and empowering move. Perhaps women could start approaching doctor’s appointments as a group, 8 women as back up for each woman who needs medications or health care. Slippers in hand.
Such brave and VERY young women, (some are just girls) it surprises me the men just take it, I would have thought they’d be in danger of assault or of a mob of men teaching them a lesson.
I know in Egypt groups of men flood into Tahrir Square in the evening to protect women from gang rape and assault. There have been some horrifying cases of pack rape on foreign female journalists, but this is also, a huge problem for Egyptian women. Sexual assault has been ignored for so long the violence has now escalated…some of these women are attacked by 40 men or more…their clothing ripped off and pack raped and assaulted. Terrifying stuff..not only does it give these monsters sexual satisfaction and a sense of power, but they also hope to make women afraid, keep them at home and out of public life. We have our problems here, but my heart goes out to those who live in VERY violent countries.
Yeah, and sometimes that goes manually, not just conventionally (something not typically referenced in martial arts classes). I’m suprised the men protect them there (it doesn’t seem to be the typical inclination). Over there, women get arrested for reporting rape (they get charged with having illegal sex, never mind that this was an imposed action & thus not the charge they were leveling at them). I wonder what happens if a woman (probably a group) were to rape a man? What does he get charged with? Maybe it’s not considered an attack because of methods employed? Women wouldn’t be able to use male anatomy, obviously. I wonder if the guy would report it at all?
I’ve noticed that in this country (U.S.A.), things like that are generally acceptable as long as it’s done in a fancy way (police tactics, medical procedures, any of these things being done by the same gender, etc…). Even when deep down someone takes issue with something, there’s no real fighting back. It’s not a question of properties, but of designation when things like this come up. Interestingly, that’s what would earn something that sort of designation in the first place.
Look at how a doctor sexually abused some women who were in their 70’s at http://www.ohio.com/news/hudson-pain-doctor-indicted-on-23-sex-charges-1.424680. Some people falsely assume that older women cannot be abused by male doctors. I know that many female nursing home residents have been abused by male medical personnel.
You know, we haven’t touched on mental institutions, yet. Apparently, things can go in a prisonesque direction as far as security measures go (I posted that on the Psychological Harms thread). Actually, that’s true with pretty much everything. In a mental institution, someone saying this or that is happening is most likely considered crazy or “just trying to get back at them.” Don’t know what goes on with imposing investigations of these situations or medical treatments, but it’s certainly possible to impose these things in that environment (and then maybe they say it was a delusion & it never happened). Minors can have all kinds of problems in these situations, too.
Misty,
There was a case with a woman in her 90s being sexually abused by her male carers. This poor lady knew what was going on, but couldn’t communicate after a stroke, their conduct was recorded on CCTV, I assume the family installed them after becoming suspicious. It makes me sick to my stomach. It doesn’t stop there either, quite a few years ago there were cases of men interfering with bodies at funeral homes, from ridicule to interference. Funeral homes run by women started at that time, my family has used their services. So we’re not even safe in death….male bodies were also, being treated inappropriately. So those inclined to abuse look for easy targets, and a position of power is even better. There have also, been issues with orderlies behaving inappropriately while women are in recovery after surgery. When the medical system is slack with our bodily privacy you feed predators, like allowing an orderly to hang around while a woman is being prepped for a c-section etc. (but her husband/partner is usually asked to leave or only allowed to enter after this process)
We entrust our body to them when we go in for surgery etc. and that should be viewed as a great responsibility.
I just read a thing that was saying it’s okay in Islam for a man to “have sex” with his wife’s corpse for up to six hours after death. Pretty damn creepy, isn’t it?
Elizabeth,
Sadly, this does not surprise me. The medical profession is so gender neutral. You are right that it is hard for some elderly women to speak up. This is exactly why I’m so grateful that my grandmother decided to keep her mom who had a severe case of Alzheimer’s Disease at home instead of sending her to a nursing home. My grandmother hired a female caregiver to help some. My grandfather was very respectful of her dignity. He did not see her naked. My grandmother worked to protect her modesty even though she could no longer talk, walk, or feed herself.
I hate to say this, but nursing homes are good places for predators to work in. Most male caregivers who abuse female patients are never caught. I also have heard of female caregivers abusing male patients.
I strongly believe that every patient should have a personal advocate not employed by the medical facility to be present for all surgeries to ensure that a patient is not violated. It is ridiculous, but many medical facilities in the US still require patients to have their underwear off for surgeries that do not involve the genitals such as cataract, knee, hand, etc. Patients under anesthesia are most vulnerable in a hospital. Once you are under anesthesia, doctors and nurses can do pretty much anything to you.
Misty
Misty, my mother is 81, still fit, connected to the world and mentally active/alert, but she had a colonoscopy under GA two weeks ago which left her confused for a few days. We’re hoping she scraps these procedures, they knock her around and may shorten her life or affect her quality of life. It was exhausting caring for her for a week while she was confused, going over the same thing 20 times, you need such patience. I hope with all my heart that we can keep her out of a nursing home and that she’s independent, fit and alert to the end. (like her mother (died at almost 86) and her grandmothers. (86 and 94))
Interesting…all but one (a heavy smoker who died of lung cancer in her 60s) of my female ancestors lived into their 80’s or 90’s with no pap tests, mammograms, routine breast, rectal or pelvic exams, they acted on symptoms…today they’d be labeled irresponsible and reckless with their health. Of course, they led lives free of routine medical interference, so apart from no screening, there were also, no “scares”, biopsies, LEEP etc.
Screening exposes us to so many other potentially harmful procedures and we may even end up a pretend “cancer” survivor. (over-diagnosis)
So they lived without medical supervision and enjoyed very long, happy and healthy lives. Yet today so many women fear not having routine exams and tests and IMO, have a poorer quality of life (biopsies and LEEP are no fun) which often compromises their health.
Women managed very well when they trusted and listened to their healthy, asymptomatic body.
(their babies were born at home too or in a bush nursing hospital with a midwife)
My grandmothers were dignified and private women, they would have been horrified at the suggestion women need to get “used” to someone rummaging around their reproductive organs every year or two looking for “something” that might kill them. How did anyone manage to sell these exams to so many women, it goes against the evidence and common sense?
Elizabeth- That’s a good point. My ancestors lived about the same lengths (some into their later 90s), and were strong & functional (physically & mentally). I “won” family history day by a wide margin (the teacher actually didn’t think I did the whole project because a lot of my relatives weren’t dead yet!), and a lot of their practices would have been considered unhealthy for being functional. It’s a complete backward standard.
Doing something that is a problem in order to prevent problems? It’s like pouring oil on a grease fire as a means of extinguishing it! Never mind that it’s malicious fraud to give the impression of effectiveness & safety of these tests, as well as false representation of ailments to compensate for. If there is a pre-existing problem that they make worse with their counterproductive treatments, that is willful exacerbation or circumstances. All of this is an attack, which is antithetical to assistance. Their deleterious style is antagonistic to patient well-being.
Learned some new words, so I thought I’d pass them along. Them acting like something detrimental is a component to medical aid is a huge problem & not very easy for people to articulate sometimes. It’s a “but that’s backward” moment that’s hard to phrase. Look at the situation with emergency care (specifically, them probing as they please). That’s an attack that wouldn’t work for diagnostic goals if it were consensual. It also consumes time that may very well be crucial for the survival of other patients. And they think they are SHIELDING themselves from malpractice lawsuits?
this is the most correct and true comment by Elizabeth. there is no one to observe or protect patient in OT and medical staff sha,elessly take advantage of such situations
That’s funny, Elizabeth but I’ve noticed more and more funeral homes using female employees. Besides the all women ones popping up, I have also noticed one of the ones with a masculine name and image now using women as their “face”. I was reading a blog last week of somebody who works in the business who visited one of the all female ones and who went behind the scenes and said that they were the most open funeral home he’d been to ( and the most professional, adhering to every regulation). Apparently funeral homes are very secretive normally (hiding something?)but this all female one was very transparent. It seems to me that there is the perception out there that women are more trustworthy than men, at least in the funeral business and they are very successful. It’s funny but I was always suspicious of male undertakers (imagining that some of them treat bodies with little respect) and when I saw the all female ones appear I made a note to myself that I would only use them for my family.
Elizabeth, I agree with you. what gets me is other woman and doctors say if we arent seeing a gyn we do not care about are sexuall health. I dont like the term sexuall health it only seems to aply to woman bodies and it implys are sex lives will be ruened if we do not have ave gyn esams ans pap smears. Thats the term being used over hear in the US. I dont get it. It also seems like that all the female body is made for to have sex with men. And those woman who fall out of there chair when you say that you dont have gyn exams, I whould like to ask how there female relitves lived and birthed childern years befor them. And there is also an idea we are supose to be liberated and sleep with alot of men and then be protected by std screening and paps. The guidlines asume all woman sleep around unprotected by a sertain age and if not we are leing. And I hate that woman are expected to disclose there sex lifes to doctors . It is none of there bussnes unless the woman wants to tell. I feel it judges female sexuallity..
Kleigh, I couldn’t agree more. I’m shocked at the questions some doctors ask their female patients. I don’t know if it happens here, but I was viewing a Patient History Form online, to be completed by new patients of an American gyn practice. (the well woman nonsense)
I’d write on the form, “This is my business”…but then I wouldn’t be there in the first place.
I think they’re very careful and clever when it comes to manipulating women, using your children against you is one tactic, an example is the NHS Cervical Screening Campaign, “My Mum missed her pap smear and now I miss my Mum”…all carefully designed to get you into the consult room. Using your child and fear, presenting testing as the responsible thing to do.
As Dr McCartney pointed out…the risk of dying from cervical cancer is very low indeed. Not a word from the NHS about the risks, you’re far more likely to end up having an excess biopsy or treatment.
I wanted to let you all know about a male doctor who used his watch to film female patients at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2406993/Wootton-Bassett-doctor-used-spycam-watch-film-intimate-examinations-banned-profession.html. Our society teaches that male doctors are experts and professionals. This case proves that a male doctor never gets tired of seeing women’s private parts.
The comments that the mother made to her daughter when she expressed she felt degraded were very disturbing: Her mother assumed that they were talking and had not realised how long he had been intimately examining her daughter.
Her mother assumed that they were talking and had not realised how long he had been intimately examining her daughter.
Her mother said: ‘When she came out of the room, I commented on how long it had taken and she said she’d never felt so degraded in her life. I remember saying “Welcome to our world”, because all women have to endure that kind of thing at some point. I feel so stupid now.’
Misty
I wanted to let everyone know about a case involving a male x-ray technician in India (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-08-30/mumbai/41618006_1_diagnostic-centre-husband-mulund) who videotaped women changing their clothes. This is horrible. This article provided great tips about how to ensure that a changing room does not have a camera that could videotape you undressing.
Misty
Not to sound racist, but what’s the deal with India? A lot of doctors over here are Indian, too. I know there’s that Red Brigade & a lot of women from there have a desire for bodily autonomy (not having an arranged marriage, for instance), but it’s like they bring the trends of their culture over here (or wherever) & act as usual. Works that way with Muslims, too (read about Sweden & Norway with that- there was even a woman from that neck of the woods that got raped in one of the Arab countries & was put in prison for a while over that!).
I have no idea where that kind of oppressive culture comes from (I’d think it would grate on people & get discarded). The whole concept is to attack, that’s what the “point system” is based on in those cultures. It’s what generates an “A+” and is considered appluadable thing to do, yet someone that attacks baselessly is considered trustable? If someone doesn’t factor in the properties of a situation when making assessments, what kind of trustablility do you have?
I really do not think that race matters. A male medical professional of any race is capable of sexually abusing women. I do not think that men of any race should do intimate procedures or procedures that may involve exposure of private parts on women.
Misty
It’s possible from any race, but it’s more of a common trend in these cultures. It’s a tradition in some of these areas, I guess. Keep in mind, some women are lesbians or bi, too. It might very well just add an against orientation aspect to the situation. It also might very well be that these women just like causing people problems, or anything else- there’s all different forms of perks. Apparently, a lot of serial killers are attracted to medical professions because of a perceived control of life & death.
Look at this article about sexual abuse by doctors in Kenya:
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000092474&story_title=is-your-wife-safe-with-her-doctor&pageNo=1. Make sure you read the whole article. It’s 3 pages long.
It is horrible that a woman with stomach pains went to see a male GP who forced a vaginal exam on her. Male doctors took advantage of teenage girls by requiring them to have pregnancy tests.
This part was very disturbing to me:
Jennifer Kimani* has been a victim: “I was being admitted to Form One 19 years ago to a school in Western Kenya and needed a medical report from a certified doctor. I too, was told to undress for a pregnancy test,” she says. She didn’t undress completely, though. She lifted her dress and the doctor began pressing her lower abdomen with his hands. “Before I knew it, his long cold fingers were suddenly inside my panty and his zip was bulging like he had a two-battery torch hidden in it. I have never felt so embarrassed — I was just a kid,” she says.
This bothers me a lot because in my tips about how to prevent sexual abuse by doctors (http://sexualmisconductbydoctors.com/femaletips.aspx), I encouraged women to never let a male doctor touch or see private parts that are covered by a 2 piece bathing suit. This particular male doctor was examining the lady’s abdomen and then slipped his fingers inside her underwear. It made me realize that a male doctor could easily put his fingers down a woman’s underwear in an abdominal exam. How do you think we can prevent a male doctor who does an abdominal exam on a lady from putting his fingers down her underwear? Do you think the lady should hold the top of her shorts or pants?
Misty
Misty,
These things happen so quickly, it’s hard to control. It would be hard to fend off a doctor during an exam, holding onto your shorts/pants and bra. Perhaps, women should set the boundaries before the exam starts, what exactly does this exam involve?
I know women (friends and online) who’ve said to a male doctor pressuring them to have an opportunistic pap test, ” I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a male doctor doing that sort of exam…for OBVIOUS reasons”. That direct statement made most of the doctors drop the subject or accept the woman would not be giving in and so they instead urged them to get screened with a doctor of their choice.
I’ve never agreed with opportunistic screening, it places women in a very vulnerable position. We might be happy to see a male doctor for an earache, but a pap test is another matter. Many women feel traumatized and violated after being pressured into an unwanted/unexpected pap test. There is a study that shows psych issues may result from opportunistic screening, but Papscreen keep pushing doctors to do just that, giving them tips to increase screening coverage. I think their attitudes and conduct are disgraceful…and should have been addressed decades ago.
The safest course of action is to handpick a doctor, this might mean several visits for trivial things, simply to sound out and assess the doctor’s conduct and attitudes. That’s how I found my trusted female GP, definitely worth the effort. Do I feel safe and in control in the consult room with this doctor?
A doctor who makes you feel uncomfortable, pressures you to have an opportunistic pap test etc. talks over the top of you, lectures/speaks down to you, is rude/abrupt….avoid, get up and leave.
I’ve never heard of a female doctor sexually abusing a female patient, (has anyone else heard of a case?) so obviously the risk is higher with a male doctor. A quick check of the cases heard at the Medical Board shows most (if not all) of those accused of sexual misconduct have been male. (This is the tip of the iceberg as most women don’t report medical misconduct or sexual assault)
Female doctors may try to railroad you into a pap test, but that’s about reaching a screening target or because they “believe” in the test, (and may be unaware of the actual benefit and risks with testing) or they think it’s safer for all women to have pap tests. (and for them, not many women sue for over-treatment, so the risk is probably viewed all one way, that rare case getting past you)
It’s also, because doctors, male and female, do not respect informed consent for women, so a recommendation becomes a law. The profession has always taken advantage of women, acting as gatekeepers of the Pill, demanding unnecessary breast and pelvic exams and elective pap tests. When boundaries are broken an “anything goes” attitude falls into place and we end up with medical abuse. Doctors know they can get away with coercion, harassment, intimidation etc.
It doesn’t matter if their female or not, trying to impose a situation of this nature is an attack (it’s just a same-sex variety if the genders match). Just like “two guys in a prison cell” you can have a “two women in a prison cell” type of situation. Adding a woman into the mix might just add an against orientation aspect to things.
I’ve heard of female doctors abusing patients (whether male of female). There’s numerous references on this site. A lot of times if doctors are going to try something abusive along those lines, they use a woman for it so they potentially get out of trouble. I remember posting something about emergency rooms & about that school in Strousburg PA that ambushed those 11-year-olds with pelvic exams (can’t remember which threads thos were in, though). I also posted something about law enforcement situations in the Psychological Harms thread (runs a lot of the same lines & medical situations can be involved).
Alex,
The case in Stroudsburg, PA was terrible. It was very unethical for the doctor to do intimate examinations on those girls. I’m sure that many of them still have emotional scars from that traumatic experience. You can see some links about this case below:
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/1998/oct98/judge.html
http://sisterlakes.net/exams.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~ynot/strouds.html
http://www.capalert.com/sexedabcdisney/cinderella.htm
http://articles.mcall.com/1999-07-22/news/3266909_1_exams-checkups-pediatric-medicine
Misty
Elizabeth,
Thank you for your excellent insights! I went to a new female Internal Medicine doctor a few years ago to get a new prescription for ear drops. I am very prone to swimmer’s ear. She tried to encourage me to have a pap smear, but I declined. I told her that I did not need a pap smear and she moved on. I do not think doctors (even female ones) should talk to you about having pap smears if you come to them for a health issue that is not gynecological issue. I think that female doctors should always offer informed patient consent for women about pap smears and let them decide.
We have to keep in mind that many female doctors have believed myths that they learned from male doctors in medical schools. I believe that this is why many female doctors are insensitive. I think it is ridiculous that many doctors still require women seeking a prescription for birth control pills to submit to a pelvic exam and pap smears.
I had a male doctor in the ER many years ago when I had the strep throat. I would not let him do anything else. I told him that I only wanted him to do a strep throat test and he complied with my wishes. I also told him to keep the door open. I kept all of my clothes on and I never lied down on the examining table at all.
Misty
I’m suprised he didn’t try to wrestle you down & do one exam or another on you (or get a woman to do it)! Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad that didn’t happen- but I’ve heard that story a few times at different angles (with men & women alike)
The female doctors believe these myths, I think, because it suits their purposes (whatever those might be, as there’s quite a bit of potential for underlying motives). Why is it that they didn’t think: “Hmm, when you don’t want something to leak you don’t screw around with the seal- maybe this applies to pregnancy?” Overall, it should occur to them that antagonism is antithetical to assistance (them imposing something of this nature is an attack, regardless). Medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction, not academic value- I’d think if they really gave a shit, that’s the conclusion they’d have come to.
I’ve heard a few times that a lot of women in medicine have a “can’t control my life, so I’ll control someone else’s” thing going on or they want to get back at someone else & take it out on these people that they’re in contact with (or they have the same orientations as the male doctors- a point typically omitted).
its better inform doctor about your concerns of modesty before first examination without any hesitation. this will warn the doctor and he will not take you for granted
That’s potentially true, but they do like to argue. Namely, that “it’s not that way.” It’s not what? Extant? A situation is what it consists of, but they basically argue that what happens ISN’T what occurs.
Another thing is that I wouldn’t phrase it as a modestly concern- since it’s not dialing down the sexiness of situation, but blocking off an imposition of that nature. It’s not a modesty thing if a woman throws an elbow back because someone grabbed her ass on the train, for instance. If it’s pointed out as a self-defense concern, instead of a “properness” issue, it might get taken more seriously.
All this is true regardless of genders involved, too- but I notice a lot of female medical personnel seem to think they can do whatever they want to someone that has a similar anatomy to them.
In fact, when male doctors are about to do something assaultive in that manner they seem to call in a female employee. For example: a common thing to hear about with falls & car accidents (any trauma patients, actually) is them imposing rectal exams on people- allegedly to diagnose spinal injuries/internal bleeding/broken bones. This isn’t even viable, whereas abdominal MRIs & CT sacans are. This is something that they act like they “don’t have the time” to NOT do! A guy actually spent three days in jail in New York when he fought back against them forcing this on him when he walked in to get stitches on his head.
Sorry this was so long, but I felt I should explain what I meant about these things. Don’t know what you know, but that’s why I mentioned it.
It is a good idea to discuss before if it is practical. Often a women is not expecting this and does not even come with her own chaperone. Surgery can also be a problem. However Canadian hospitals in large cities are getting better at understanding and accommodating modesty concerns due to large immigrant populations.
Another problem is finding doctors that understand and policies that should be made. If a women requests a female doctor that should be honoured but not possible in some places or emergency situations.
For Pap tests a male doctor should be required to at least refer to a female doctor for gynaecological exams if a women refuses for that specific reason. It is not done because there is no financial incentive to do that. The male doctor just hassles and hassles instead until the women is receiving a substandard care. She refuses exams or even stops going to a doctor
Look at how a doctor pulled up women’s hospital gowns to take pictures of her private parts at http://www.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/Hidden-camera-doctor-faces-jail-admitting/story-19744767-detail/story.html#axzz2dqwIIbz9n.
This is exactly why just a hospital gown does not protect a patient’s modesty or prevent sexual abuse.
Misty
Look at the ridiculous arguments this doctor ‘s lawyer tried to defend him at http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/09/04/toronto-george-doodnaught-trial-closing-arguments.html. This is exactly why every patient should have a personal advocate not employed by the medical facility with them at all times while they are sedated or under anesthesia
I was disgusted by this doctor’s statement at the end of the article. I hope that this doctor’s license is revoked permanently and that he can never work with female patients again.
Misty
I hope their relatives have a sense of direct reciprocation. Nothing to say he can’t get molested & maimed- that way he has a horrible set of memories & physical debilitation (can’t do anything like put pills in someone’s drink or jump them in a stairwell). If he can’t really do much of anything for himself anymore, that’d be interesting (and make him quite vunerable to the other members of his own kind that would be “caring” for him).
Conscious sedation seems to mean “medical roofy.” It tends to do the exact same things (tending to make someone more suggestible & forgetful- sometimes of massive chunks of their life) and it doesn’t block pain, either. This is a way for someone to feel all the pain of whatever is going on, just not be able to remember it to testify later- certainly sounds deliberate to me. A real “They’re not going to block MY effect” kind of philosophy- and they’ll be damned if a patient is going to comport their own situation (particularly if this “inferior” is going to do something other than what they planned- other than what the “high quality answer” is, which they adjucate on their own).
They truly do think that having any involvement with something generates a situation of annexation. If they have any sway over something, it’s theirs. It’s also slavery for them to be “pushed around” by anyone impeding their actions- as far as they’re concerned, the patient is an obstacle to them practicing medicine (doing the act of whatever medical procedures).
Look at how complaints have grown about a pain management doctor in Ohio who sexually abused patients at http://www.hudsonhubtimes.com/news%20local/2013/09/15/complaints-mount-against-doctor-accused-of-sex-crimes. Many women who have been sexually abused by doctors do not report sexual abuse unless they hear of other complaints because they feel embarrassed or intimidated. I’m sure many more doctors have sexually abused patients than we can imagine.
Misty
Look at how a doctor who raped a patient in India was sentenced to life at http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-09-21/mumbai/42271759_1_icu-victim-life-sentence. It is obvious that India takes sexual abuse by doctors more seriously than the US.
Misty
Look at how a well-respected doctor in Las Vegas sexually abused a woman after asking her to remove underwear because she complained of leg & hip pain at http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/crime-courts/doctor-indicted-sexual-assault-charges. There was no reason for her to remove her underwear. It is disturbing about how this doctor’s lawyer defended him and said he had a lot of community support.
Misty
I had a horrible experience recently and no one will help so reading this blog was Inportant to me….thank you…
Don’t know what you mean by “no one will help,” but you might be able to talk to a lawyer about whatever it was. A situation is what it consists of (for instance: if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder- it’s just an “iatrogenic” variation). Any interface with sexual areas as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack, it doesn’t matter what the variation is.
There’s a potential legal “head shot” in pointing out that the properties of a situation don’t change by designation. Even though there’s a lot of “What? How can anything medical be an attack? How can it be wrong to force something that isn’t an attack?” an outright elaboration of the situation is something particularly helpful. The term “iatrogenic detriment” is a very useful one & it cuts through bullshit well. You had said that “no one will help” so I presumed that meant that you were trying to get some & finding every “gun was empty”- so to speak. Maybe that will load it for you.
I’ve had a really bad experience with a male doctor. I think most male doctors are weird creepy perverts who enjoy pap smears.they are underneath their white coats sadistic. Especially OBGYN doctors well some of them t. I realized at the moment when I was giving birth to my son. Some of them…especially my ex doctor don’t enjoy giving birth or to see a new life come into this world they like to see a woman in pain and blood. How do I know…because of the bad horrible experience I went through …..I hope another woman doesn’t go through what I had to endure …I was raped psychologically and physically….I hope the media focus more on this issue. And I’m glad websites like this exists to inform women. . Because I sure hell didn’t know what the term was and many women had their share of experiences in the hands of male doctors…smh I thought what I was feeling was wrong and I was losing my mind.But my heart was telling me otherwise…thank you guys
You’re completely right about male doctors (a lot of female doctors are like that, too). When the males want to do something that is sexually antagonistic, they sometimes use women to do it- so they potentially don’t get in any trouble).
The emergency room can be pretty dangerous, too (for men & women- and, I’m presuming, children). Look up that case where the guy had a rectal exam forced on him when he walked in for stitches on his head. If you Google “forced rectal exams” or “rectal exam for spinal injury” you should find some info on that. I remember looking up things on that case & not one doctor or nurse thought the hospital was wrong (actually, a bunch of them made him out to be the bad guy). They had a pretty oppositional attitude toward the patients, as well (a lot of “That’s tough” attitude).
I posted about that in the Psychological Harms thread, but I just wanted to give a word of warning on that. Figured it’s the kind of thing you can get dragged into or unknowingly walk into & have an ambush form around you.
Look at how a 86 year old male doctor was accused of sexually abusing women at http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/story/6aeae7f81b184986a0ea18c2971b1ba4/DE–Doctor-Sex-Charges/#.UkYiQe_D-M-. Many people falsely assume that you cannot be abused by an older doctor.
Misty
Older doctors may still be living in the, “I’m a God and untouchable” world. A friend was once called “girlie” by an older doctor when she dared to challenge him. Clearly she didn’t know her place…silent and compliant.
It’s a shock for many doctors to find that powerless female bodies now have a voice and are prepared to challenge them and lodge complaints.
Trust and respect cannot be demanded, you have to earn it, and that includes doctors.
Look at how a neurologist at a VA Hospital abused some female veterans by doing unnecessary breast and pelvic exams on them at http://cjonline.com/news/2013-09-28/sexual-abuse-and-suspicious-prescriptions-va-hospital.
Misty
Look at how a doctor who took intimate pictures of women with his cell phone told women he was using his cell phone to time their heart rate. I hate that those women fell for this excuse and believed him.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/doctor-suhail-ahmed-jailed-after-2339680
Sickening isn’t it Misty. Time and time again you have warned women not to see male doctors for any type of examination. Some men just can not be trusted. The only way I can protect myself from this type of abuse is to avoid ALL male medical staff.
I am not against male doctors for non-intimate issues. For example, I had a strep throat test by a male doctor and he did not do anything inappropriate at all. I kept all of my clothes on.
Misty
Look at a disturbing case where a 11 year old girl was molested by a well-respected doctor at http://wwmt.com/shared/news/features/top-stories/stories/wwmt_albion-doctor-claims-innocence-csc-charges-15512.shtml. It was apparent that the 11 year old girl’s mother was not with her when the abuse happened. This is exactly why parents should always be with their children in the examining room. It bothers me that this doctor seems to have a lot of supporters based on the news.
Misty
Look at how a male gynecologist took 35,000 pictures of female patients at http://www.thelocal.de/20131111/jail-for-gynaecologist-who-took-pics-of-patients.
This does not surprise me. I think many more male gynecologists have secretly taken pictures of their patients than we can imagine. I am sure some of them are never caught. This male gynecologist hid a camera in a drawer at his office.
Misty
I have never heard that breast exams are unnecessary for women under the age of 40, yet this article about a medical technician being charged with sexual assault claims this is the case:
“The charges allege inappropriate medical exams at Ontario military recruitment sites in Thunder Bay and London from 2003 to 2009.
Wilks used the medical exams to see and touch the women’s breasts, and let them think it was part of the examination, which was “totally dishonest,” D’Auteuil said.
“The court found no reason to disbelieve any of these women.”
Wilks testified on his own behalf, but d’Auteuil said he was not believable.
The judge accepted evidence there was no need for the women to have undergone breast exams at their age. No such exam is required for women under the age of 40.
“He did that for his own personal sexual gratification,” said d’Auteuil. http://www.cbc.ca/news/ex-military-medic-convicted-of-sex-assault-for-bogus-breast-exams-1.2428708
The judge doing the sentencing is sending a clear and much appreciated message. But what about all the unnecessary pelvic exams for birth control pills and other health needs? In my opinion unnecessary pelvic exams should also be classified as sexual assault.
You’re absolutely right! Especially considering that one’s much worse than the other- not that either is acceptable.
I still don’t like the term “need” or “required,” because it definitely implies a situation of non-discretion. If something has low-utility, it should be phrased that way (“this” doesn’t work to detect “that,” for instance). Whatever someone’s level of information, their refusal is not hollow. Doctors frequently maintain that if someone argues with them they’re not informed or they’re not mentally fit to handle themselves- so the patient’s consent is now outsourced to the doctor.
Also, it doesn’t matter what amount of utility something has, it’s an attack when something of this nature is imposed on someone. If someone elects to not have these things done to them, that’s their decision. If they don’t consent to something, it doesn’t matter whether they have background information to back it up.
Like I keep saying: A situation is what it consists of. Properties don’t change because of designation, so all the camouflage is exactly that.
These are good observations, but I don’t think they’re always “missed” by others, if you get what I mean. It’s a lot of acting unaware of something to feign innocence & use someone’s conscience against them- they don’t want to hurt someone that’s innocent (not a bad quality, but it doesn’t apply in this case).
I know I’ve said it before, but I think it’d be a good thing to make it a more prevalent observation: Dynamics don’t change because standards do.
I agree, routine pelvic and breast exams and pap testing for the Pill or anything else cannot be medically justified, they are not clinical requirements for anything.
I don’t have routine breast exams and I’m a lot older than 40, there is no evidence of benefit, but they lead to excess biopsies. No, thank you.
I think the medical profession has always taken liberties with the female body, starting when the profession was mostly male….and they got away with it. When people in a position of power get away with abuse, it continues….and may escalate. Also, the abuse becomes normalized so some women won’t question a doctor reaching for her breasts when she attends for an earache. So complaints are not made, it may even be put down to thoroughness. Some doctors here argue they were taught to do routine breast exams or believe in it’s value. The medical association needs to caution these doctors to better protect women. If it’s not recommended the doctor must make that clear to the patient and obtain express informed consent. Also, they should release a statement to the public alerting women to the fact routine breast and pelvic exas are not recommended. They should also, say pap tests are elective and can never be required for anything. Of course, that won’t happen.
The AMA, IMO, do not respect informed consent for women, some of their statements are scandalous, making clear the Old Guard are still in control and they know what’s best for women. We even heard the incredible statement that women on the Pill need pap tests and may need breast exams from the AMA when the Govt allowed chemists to provide a small quantity of the Pill if women were caught short.
This statement makes clear the AMA still links the Pill and elective cancer screening….yet we’d never hear them say men need prostate exams for Viagra.
The AMA, IMO, has always protected the program and vested/their interests…they don’t respect or protect women.
I can recall women having a breast exam when they saw their doctor with a flu or stomach upset, I always suspected the young and attractive got the excess, things like breast exams….while older women did not have these exams. (or not as often)
I became suspicious as a very young woman when I noticed attractive women got the works for the Pill while overweight, older etc. women did not have these exams. (or not as often) A very overweight woman at University got the Pill for many years from a male doctor at Student Health with a blood pressure test. No mention of breast and pelvic exams or pap tests. So I always felt some concern that perhaps, some male doctors “used’ their professional position to take advantage of those they found attractive. I avoided doctors, exercised extreme caution and thankfully, I was able to use the Billings Method and enjoyed good health.
Sexual abuse will always occur to some degree when inappropriate conduct and exams are encouraged or permitted.
Women should challenge these exams, only then will more doctors see it’s no longer safe to take advantage of the patients they find desirable or to use women to boost profits or in the exercise of extreme defensive medicine. The casual way they view examinations of the female body needs to change and their safe sense of entitlement, only clinically required exams we agree to have should occur. Doctors need to understand that doing something not clinically required and without our informed consent carries serious consequences.
Also, I view it as worse than a creep grabbing your breast on the subway, because doctors are in a position of trust and have a professional duty of care. So the subway guy would face the Police, so should a doctor. (as well as the Medical Board) I don’t believe this sort of conduct should be handled by the Medical Board, similar to perverted priests being handled by the Church, why should this type of alleged sexual abuse be treated differently, as something less serious? I consider it just as serious and probably, worse….given the position of trust.
I know we saw real action quickly when women starting going to the Police, rather than the Medical Board. For decades the latter IMO, did little more than protect doctors.
Yes I agree it is worse when a doctor does it. You are expecting to be treated professionally and feel you are in a safe space, so when something creepy takes place it can be devastating. First you have to make sense of it – and during this phase it can feel as if you are losing your mind because it wasn’t supposed to be this way. You can doubt yourself or even blame yourself. It is interesting how putting sexual abuse in the context of a medical situation tends to absolve the perpetrator. Imagining the actions involved in a coerced pelvic exam – taken out of the medical setting – it does become easier to see it for what it is. Imagine a woman being sedated and without her knowledge or consent having her vagina penetrated by a group of strangers. If it happens on a subway you can see it clearly as rape. Yet when it happens via surgery where a group of medical students are “practicing” pelvic exams then the exact same actions are deemed acceptable. Or imagine a woman in a shoe store wanting to buy a pair but the salesman says “no, you can’t have these unless you let me do a pelvic exam first” – this is IMO similar to the practice of being coerced into a pelvic prior to being granted birth control pills because a pelvic exam in this situation is equally irrelevant. If the same coercion were to happen in a shoe store it becomes easier to see it more plainly for what it is.
Here is a bit of good news:
“A Toronto court has found Dr. George Doodnaught, an anesthesiologist, guilty of sexually assaulting 21 women while they were under conscious sedation in a hospital.
The verdict was handed down in a packed courtroom shortly after 10 a.m. ET Tuesday, bringing tears to the eyes of many of the victims present for the decision. Some people could be heard sighing with relief or whispering “yes.”
It’s heartening to see some justice in this case. The evidence was overwhelming as 21 women (who did not know each other) came forward with similar stories against the same doctor. The old excuse of “it was the anesthetic causing hallucinations” just couldn’t cut it in this case. I wonder too how many other women were victims and did not come forward. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/dr-george-doodnaught-guilty-of-21-sex-assaults-of-patients-1.2431679
Hi I was badly abused by a doctor when I was at university during colonoscopy. I am devastated by PTSD and have no idea how to get over it. Every time I try and talk about it to a medical person Including pysychological help I am shot down. A terrible impact on my life. It really resonates this thing about not knowing what is happening to you. I thought some of the things that were happening were part of the process as I was young. Has anyone got any ideas about how to move on? Now in my late forties – have other medical issues and have to go into hospital this month for spinal surgery.
This is pretty long, but maybe it will help:
They are dead wrong to shoot you down- a situation is what it consists of & if it consists of an imposed interface with a sexual area, it’s an attack. It’s specifically called an “iatrogenic attack”- which is a fancy way of saying assualt using medical methodologies. Properties don’t change because of designation, so someone trying to argue with you is, for all purposes, acting crazy. I’ll bet they wouldn’t say “What happens ISN’T what occurs,” but for what they’re saying to be accurate that would have to be an underlying presumption. Keep in mind: altruism doesn’t produce ownership, so the argument that “they want to help” doesn’t hold up. They don’t annex people with their decisions if they DID have charitable intentions (a big “IF,” considering that it’s pretty easy to say & what they did wasn’t help).
As for moving on, I’ve heard it said “the answer to pollution is dilution.” It was in reference to the environment, but I figure it carries over to something like this. Keep in mind, some things tend to stick with you & pervy stuff is one of them (things getting strange in a military situation does that, too & I’ll bet because of the combative “demeanor” of the subject, nobody’d argue that one). Properly demonizing something AND trying to move foward is a possible idea.
I DO know a few things that are bad ideas, however: Trying to elevate a problem to a non-issue (ex: acting like “it’s nothing, anyway”) is a pretty typical thing & is basically given as advice, but it’s something that’ll cause problems. It’s now sugar-coating a bad situation (which will always taste like a lie, since it is one) & inadvertantly prettying-up whoever caused it. On top of that, it makes for a more hospitable environment for this kind of thing to happen (whether it’s to the same person again, or someone else for the first time) & if you were to actually act according to the facade, it would be something you wouldn’t try to counteract (because it’s “not an issue,” it wouldn’t be something to take strides against). Although the logic on that one doesn’t entirely make sense, since there’s more than one reason for going against something (being disinclined toward something & hostility toward the other party are two right there). Either way that does happen (particularly with men, for some reason- in spite of the general theme of antagonistic behavior toward an enemy).
Pretty sure there’s the capacity for advocates & such to actually be in the surgery room, but not entirely sure how to go about it. I think OverItAll was the one one this site than mentioned a bunch of this stuff (it might have been in the Psychological Harms thread). Getting all kinds of things in writing ahead of time is another point. Making very distinct specifications & all. I’m not too knowledgeable on that subject & have low faith in laws, but it might be useful to have a lawsuit ready to go.
You’re absolutely right to be worried about being unconscious in the hospital. Actually, a fairly common things seems to be imposing recatal exams on people with a “possible spinal injury” backstory. This is particularly true in car accidents & falls, but it seems to frequently get integrated into the overall emergency room response: Abdominal MRIs & CT scans are viable ways of detecting spinal injuries, internal bleeding, broken bones, etc…, but what they do instead is say to people that they can tell different things by the muscule tension & such- which is NOT viable). There was actually a bit of a big case about this in America (a guy walked into a hospital for stitches on his head & they forced a rectal exam on him, then he got locked up for defending himself). Look up “The Buckeye Surgeon: Excuse me sir, I need to place a finger in your rectum” (it’s a blog or something by this doctor who goes on a rant about how wrong everyone else is to decide not to have someone else probe them). There were a whole bunch of differnet posts on forums & such over this, but they all carried the same theme: “That the patient was an obstacle to their actions & if they don’t like or want what gets directed at them, tough.” They basically made him out to be the bad guy.
Also, there are “medical roofies” like Versed & Hypnovel which do all the same things regualr roofies do, and they don’t block the pain that they’re supposedly used for. It seems that that tends to be used with “conscious sedation,” but sometimes they say things like “You won’t even remember (whatever it is)” or “Just a little something to help you relax” before they use stuff like this. I guess it’s meant as some kind of sick joke.
I’m sure you’ve looked up all kinds of things on hospital-borne infections & mishaps, but one of the things that might give you pause is catheters. They tend to think that they make their own decisions with these things & get very mindlessly rooted to the idea of “one thing goes with the other,” but there are EXTERNAL ones for women & there’s even adult diapers (if that sort of thing is a concern. Internal catheters are also a serious source of infection (potentially fatal infection), so I’d spend some time on that. Maybe a specific clause in your “This Is How I Want Things Done” paperwork. Anything they tell you- be very cynical (presume it’s bullshit in the first place, at least on some level), make sure to double/triple check, maybe get it in writing (even if you aren’t going to do it, anyway- just the state of them saying “this” on paper).
If anything is a problem or seems to be the forerunner of one, just leave. I definitely do think that the medical professions (at least, the allopathic ones) need to be conquered & overhauled until they are massively different from their current forms- but a lot of times they’ll do the “Bait & Switch” tactic & just tell you whatever sounds good. If they start giving you shit, maybe it’s a sign that they don’t intend on following your discretion. Sounds like you’re in Europe, maybe one of the other countries that aren’t so bossy & medically dictatorial. It seems the Netherlands have a lot of high-quality things, but I don’t know much about that- even though I’m trying to move to Europe in a year or two.
Locksmith I am sorry that happened to you. I’m not sure what works because it is probably different for everyone. What has worked for me is to try and live a healthy life and avoid doctors (like the plague!). I feel badly you are having to undergo surgery, but have you considered options besides surgery? It seems there is a push for surgery even when it may not be necessary – surgery is a very lucrative business. I don’t know what your spinal situation is, but if it is a back injury and you delve into the research you will discover that outcomes are similar between natural healing of back injuries and surgical interventions. Natural healing can take time though, and there are good and bad days throughout the healing process. But for you surgery may be the best/only option?
If you have no choice other than to undergo surgery then Misty’s site has many good articles about protecting yourself from abuse during surgery. Having another person present throughout the entire procedure is a good protective option, as well as refusing Versed:http://patientmodesty.org/versed.aspx
As another commenter has said, there is nothing you can do to change the past, but you can certainly take steps now and in the future to ensure it never happens to you again.
Thank you for your replies – had a very calming effect on me as the weekend was very tricky emotionally to say the least. Sadly the surgery has had to be fought for. I was attacked by a special needs student two years plus ago and ended up with mild brain damage and chronic neck problems. I was told repeatedly that the neck issues were ‘psychological’. However, it turned out to be a pack of lies and I have spinal damage and suspected cord impingement. All apparently seen on initial images/MRIs Wanted a disc replacement but things have gone to far in the interim and am stuck with a spinal fusion. With my general mistrust of the medical profession, this has all added insult to injury, so am obviously very jumpy about going into hospital. Husband has taken time off work as I don’t want to be left on my own and am going to try and arrange friends to be around a lot. Interesting about the catheterisation and will refuse this if offered. Thanks again. I find this site very empowering just knowing people believe me is a great start. Trying to talk about it over the years to so called professionals has added damage after damage and do you know I still never got to tell the whole story in the end – so no-one knows!
I encourage you all to comment on Dr. Bernstein’s blog at http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2013/10/patient-modesty-volume-59.html#c4892275693277893261. Dr. Bernstein and Gerald do not share the same views we do about sexual abuse by doctors. It would be great if some of you could comment to support me.
Misty
Misty,
I have read the comments on Bernstein’s blog. I was appalled at some of the statements, especially in regards to the claim that it is “ridiculous” to want locked doors to keep out unwanted prying eyes. I have no desire to comment on Bernstein’s blog. There is a culture of dismissal, negativity, and a refusal/inability to acknowledge the issue of sexual abuse within the medical community that prevails. It is this type of prevalent attitude of denial and dismissal that is so dangerous because it perpetuates the abuse.
To comment on Bernstein’s blog feels similar to what it might feel like for a Jewish person to enter Auschwitz and expect to be treated as a human being. It just is not going to happen.
Sue,
I can certainly understand your feelings. I do not think that Dr. Bernstein really cares about patient modesty. I think he tries to manipulate people to change their minds. What he said about sexual abuse is very untrue. If it was really true that medical professionals did not sexually abuse patients, why do we hear about it so much? The truth is I bet many male gynecologists secretly take pictures of women’s private parts and never get caught.
Gerald also was very critical of me when I shared about how I was proud of one of my friends who drove her teenage daughter over 30 minutes away to take her to female NPs to protect her.
Misty
In large multicultural Canadian cities, more hospitals, medical offices and other public services are
More careful about respecting cultural differences and accommodating different ideas about modesty etc. it is not just asked for, it is demanded. More clinics advertising women doctors because some women feel uncomfortable being examed by male doctors due to cultural reasons. This seems fine when it is due to culture. No one can demand it for modesty or comfort if they have PSTD or were suvivors of abuse.
The “we are all American here” so there is a common culture or maybe whatever other countries is mono excuse to forcing a total disregard to any patients modesty. It is just an excuse and convenience for a hospital to say that no accommodations can be made for modesty such as “we’re all medical professional here” so people walking in and out of a room when you are naked and exposed is just fine. Suck it up.
If people were telling hospital “yeah I did get good medical care but I am not making a donation or using your services again because my modesty was not respected” there would be change. Unfortunately having a monopoly in some areas makes for a substandard or mediocracy. Patients are consumers.
Families of patients in hospitals and nursing homes could complain about sexual abuse but more of the problems are neglect, lack of proper timely care, mistakes in medication and theft. Modesty is not the foremost. Having a family member accompany a patient at almost all times in the only way to prevent neglect and abuse. Obviously there are some places like surgery theatre that a family member might not practically be allowed.
Doctors are required to report sexual abuse of patients by other doctors. I wonder how often it happens.
Moo,
Patients need to start demanding that a family member be with them for surgery and if the hospital refuses to honor their wishes, patients should go somewhere else. We do not need to let medical facilities tell us that a family member cannot be present.
Misty
That’s a good idea about someone “not making a donation.” Got a good laugh out of it, too. It might be an effective strategy, that their monetary compensation is at stake if they cause problems. I think it might be good to be able to revoke their diplomas, as well (they certainly seem to think a lot of themselves because of it- maybe they’re forbidden from holding a degree ever again?).
One thing: I’d suggest using the term “protection,” not modesty- after all, it IS a self-defense issue. When people hear the term “modesty,” it seems that a lot of times they think of these oppresive “sex is wrong” cultures or that it’s marginal concerns (like it’s a “politeness” issue, not a “threat” issue). It think sometimes it comes off weak, too. Like someone is being delicate or “baby-ish” in some way.
In response to Sue’s comment about Bernstein’s blog
I couldn’t agree more. I mistakenly thought that this blog might be similar to the Medical Patient Modesty site, and perhaps to FWEO in it’s attempt to raise awareness about some of the issues discussed on this blog. WRONG. Misty does a great job of raising good points on the site and appears to have backed Bernstein into a corner so that he and a like-minded commenter have revealed their true colors. It is pretty clear the site is less about creating a safe space for expression of patient concerns about modesty and is more about physicians having a platform for expressing themselves in a paternalistic and authoritarian manner. Worse still is that there is one commenter – apparently a physician — (won’t take long for you to figure out who I mean) who goes on misogynistic rants about female nurses and is pretty much allowed to do so without challenge by the host of regular visitors who call the site home.
It is not a safe space.
Personally, I wouldn’t waste my keystrokes on it.
You mean “PT”? No he’s not a physician from what I can gather. He worked in a hospital it seems as some kind of support role. I used to read the blog a couple of years ago and I got sick of this man claiming that men suffer all sorts of modesty violations why women get all the choices and consideration in the world. He states complete untruths on a regular basis like for example there were plenty of female gynaecologists for women to choose from in the past to women only got into medicine on a quota basis. Dr Bernstein did dispute that there was a quota system, but I only found out not long ago that there was a quota system in some places but not for a MINIMUM number of female medical students but for a MAXIMUM number of female medical students. The man is a complete misogynist in particular to female nurses because he was forced into a hernia exam by female nurses as a young man in the army ( not their fault, obviously the system) and he forever accuses female nurses of being perverts. Of course accusations of sexual abuse by female nurses seems very rare. Even when I read in the newspapers of nurses committing abuse it turns out it was a male nurse in all the cases. I don’t know why Dr Bernstein lets him post such lies all the time. I got sick of reading them.
Look at how woman, LJ talked against my advice at http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2013/11/patient-modesty-volume-60.html#c4753105325851593435. I know she also does not like the comments Doctor Watchdog has made. I know it is her choice to go to a male gynecologist of course. But there have been too many male gynecologists who have sexually abused women. I think it is important to warn women. I was wondering if some of you could respond to LJ with the truth.
Misty
I know this is going to come off a bit vulgar, but maybe she likes the guy in a relationship kind of way. Maybe he’s a source of approval? Attention? I mean she’s got a real “standing guard” style with her reply & I’ve got to wonder how someone actually things it’s beyond belief that there’s some general pervyness going on in a medical situation. I know I’ve said it before, but a situation is what it consists of.
This sounds like a woman that would say “it’s not like that” if someone snatched someone up to go do some aggressive role-playing or if someone’s relative decided to “play doctor” on them when they were younger. She basically thinks there’s no such thing as medical harm & that there can’t ever be an iatrogenic variation of attack.
Imagine this: Someone (man or woman) in a white lab coat chases someone through a parking garage, telling someone to “get back here” & that “they need to do this,” wrestling them to the ground, then probing them (manually or with an implement. That is an antagonistic circumstance, yes? It’s not somehow OTHER than that. I don’t get how something massively less severe (like a husband punching his wife in the face, for instance) is seen as an attack, but much worse is not. No mercy for a pickpocket, but someone picking at a someone’s underwear is okay?
Reading Dr Bernsteins blog it seems that there is a lack of understanding that any violation of bodily autonomy can feel like an assault to that person. Even if full informed consent was given or being undressed with care and being covered. Control of their body is being taken away which has psychological implications. People who have gone through a serious illness such as cancer will sometimes struggle with PTS or PTSD after due to the threat to their life but also the loss of control over the body that includes having many medical procedures performed on them. The psychological effects could be worse if their modesty isn’t protected and if they haven’t given full informed consent. The responsibility does not rest on us as the patients but for the medical community to realize that there is a psychological aspect to healthcare and patients can end up feeling that they have been assaulted.
Not to sound like I’m squaring-off with you- but it’s not a modesty concern, it’s a self-defense issue. “Modesty” sounds like someone trying to be perpertually frumpy or something. I know it’s not like that, but it DOES come off like someone that hold repressive beliefs high.
Another thing I’d mention is that when someone says that “it can FEEL that way,” tends to imply that that person is wrong. Again, I know it’s not meant that way- but that’l definitely sound like they’re mistaken & it’s kind of a frivolous extra for someone to worry about that. The fact that this is the situation is seen as a glitch that’s “on them.” Not that there’s any victim-blaming with this general subject.
ADM, my sister-in-law had cancer when she was 32 and for her the most traumatic part of the experience was lying naked while male technicians measured her body – this was to make covers for the parts of her body that were not going to be treated with radiation.
Not much has changed, a family friend works in this field and says two female or two male techs is still very difficult and usually all they can offer is one of each, a male and female tech. She knows it’s unsatisfactory, these patients are not so worried about sexual assault, but simply don’t wish total exposure of their body to the opposite sex. It’s not just young people either, many older people request same sex care.
A Muslim woman refused the treatment with males or a mixed sex team so her doctor’s office moved mountains to accommodate her wishes. This is an example of sloppiness and a lack of care and sensitivity, it can have a permanent and devastating effect. Some may cancel or delay treatments, some may not feel they can complain and suffer in silence, some are left distressed and traumatized….not great when your mental state is so important when you have a serious illness. She suspects one young woman decided against treatment because of this reason, but kept it to herself, it was possibly the last mountain she didn’t have the energy to climb, feeling depressed already and not wishing to put herself through more.
She knows many endure it and don’t feel they can make a real fuss, which is usually what’s required in her department..the system knows most will give-in eventually…she feels bad when a patient has tears running down their face during this humiliating process. When we can send people to the Moon, you’d think we could protect the privacy of people during these treatments. The measurements must be precise, but surely we could work around a paper gown IF WE ACTUALLY CARED. My SIL still gets upset to this day, decades later, when she recalls her mortification, anger, distress, frustration etc. having to lie completely naked while two men took measurements of her body etc. She wept during the entire process and fell into a decline, it definitely took a lot of fight out of her. She coped by pushing it out of her mind, but feels this may be the reason it keeps coming back to haunt her and upset her all over again. Part of the problem was also, the lack of understanding from other people, “don’t worry they see naked people all day”…what is so often forgotten, this was about her and her feelings, not them. Trivializing, dismissing etc. her feelings made things worse.
Too true, Elizabeth.
It always angers me that in Australia practically the only way to get rid of males touching your body is to be a Muslim woman. Australia is all too nice to go out of its way in order to respect wishes of various cultures and religions. Anything that may remotely resemble religious or cultural discrimination is a big “no-no”.
Yet the same Australian system doesn’t give a $hit when a Christian or atheist woman doesn’t want males around her naked body. That woman will be declared unreasonable, be told she needs to suck it up, seek special consulting, or be presumed a victim of domestic violence. To me, it looks like discrimination, against non-Muslim women!
You know why the Muslims get all that stuff? Because they get together & attack the situation in a sustained way. They don’t try to recruit or ask why someone does something. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that they are always right when they go after something (a lot of cultural/religious things with them are not very autonomy bolstering, particularly with women).
My point is that their strategy is to actually COUNTERACT things. They don’t ask if someone wants to switch things around. They don’t ask if someone agrees with them. It’s not an invitation to desist in hostilities. I would think that “My body, my rules” would be good enough (especially in countries that pretend to be about freedom & all that). The doctor (and other people, too) like to argue when someone has a problem with something. They say “This is a problem,” but the one hearing it isn’t “convinced.” There’s also the point of ulterior motives that are not going to be advertised (and the fact that vicarious thrills are entirely possible).
I’ve noticed a trend with the America-esque countries: they tend to think that altruism produces ownership. They attack people & then say “just trying to help.” That’s their way of trying to annex people. Conquest through fake concern. Ever notice that?
I was a bit surprised that Dr Bernstein’s site is not all that supportive of patient concerns, one woman posted about conduct that sounded like sexual abuse, yet she was dismissed fairly quickly with the general fob-off stuff, I stopped reading a while ago. I find Dr Joel Sherman’s site fairly safe, he’s prepared to listen and do some research, he had no idea that cc was so rare and that women were being so terribly over-screened. This discovery prompted him to write an article for the Kevin MD site and it appeared in the WSJ. He also, challenged the female doctor (can’t recall her name) who shut down a thread on her website when women (including me) started questioning the value and need for pap testing and discussing informed consent, (or the lack thereof) clearly it was FAR too threatening for her. That woman also, deleted my entire post because I mentioned the Delphi Screener, she thought I might be marketing the Screener. (I wish…) I don’t accept that explanation, you could delete the name of the device, IMO, she didn’t want women to know about the new Dutch program, the significance of HPV, the pointlessness and risks with the well-woman exam and that we can test ourselves for HPV. She went on to write an article on mammograms for the Kevin MD site, I enjoyed responding to her knowing she couldn’t do a thing about it, no power to delete my post and oh, all of that glorious information for all to read, including her patients. (heaven help them)
I have to say…I have no respect for any doctor who goes to such lengths to keep women (and her patients) in the dark. It’s disrespectful at the very least…
There was a lot of discussion on Dr Sherman’s site for 2-3 years, but it’s very quiet now, on the Women’s Privacy Concerns thread anyway, most of us went to BlogCritics and are now posting here. I must post more often on Dr Sherman’s site, it’s so important to have physicians on our side, those who offer support, they have the power to reach a big audience, to get change rolling, people thinking…an article in the WSJ makes a big difference.
By the way, Gilbert Welch has responded to the American on-air mammogram (40 year old Amy Robach) and the apparent discovery of cancer. Once again, the voice of calm and reason.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/20/opinion/welch-mammogram-robach/
Elizabeth – That was an excellent article! CNN is a big deal! The comments were a bit disappointing though. The point of the article was to educate women so that they can make an informed decision. Most of the commenters were angrily arguing that all women need to undergo mammograms at least once a year because it’s better to be over-treated than dead. Neither is a good thing. Over-treatment can lead to lots of problems. Death is horrible, but it’s something unfortunate that all humans must experience. It’s as much a part of life as life itself. I can tell you one thing, though, the medical industry in general has gotten to me and made me feel paranoid to some extent, even with the knowledge I have now. It’s easy to understand why these women got so defensive. I’m 20 and nearly all of my friends have had abnormal paps (some of them leading to follow-up treatments), removal of benign ovarian cysts, or a breast exam which led to further inspection or biopsy. Furthermore, almost everyone I know, even people younger than me are all on medication. I don’t take anything. Because of that, I feel like something is going to go wrong at any minute. Particularly with my female organs. I wonder why that is? It wouldn’t have anything to do with constant propaganda would it? It’s all just completely scary. On the one hand, I absolutely do not want to participate in screening. Particularly for the reason of psychological harm – I can’t even stand the thought of undergoing any of that but also knowing there are lots of physical risks that can come with it as well. Furthermore, I understand that most cancers involving the female organs are rare. On the other hand, there’s always the chance that I could be one of the unlucky ones. My great great grandmother died from bleeding out. They don’t know the exact cause of death, but that’s considered a risk factor by doctors. Several women in my family have had abnormal results and treatments but how do I know if they actually had cancer? I just hate that I feel obligated to screen or die from what I’m not being screened for. As I said, even being educated on the subject, I still feel this way at times. Does anyone else go through that?
I would like to end this comment, though, by saying that it’s interesting looking at women from other places in Europe. Particularly Finland, The Netherlands, and The UK. While they do have more regular screening programs in the UK, it seems as though women there feel more free to make a choice in the matter and an article I read from Wales gave lots of honest facts and said that doctors should respect a patient’s refusal and provide informed consent. Furthermore, the women in those places don’t seem to worry as much about their health, in general. Another thing, when you look at the statistics, those women have the same percentage rates of cancer as women in the US or Canada or Australia, if not a bit lower. I just feel so frustrated and pressured with all of it sometimes.
Keep in mind: “catching something early” doesn’t mean “reporting it to the patient.” Look at their general style- it’s their inclination to cause harm to people. I know they don’t fly a banner or openly advertise it, but that’s their style/culture. Personally, I’m suprised so many women take anything they say seriously (I mean if a cheating boyfriend told you ANYTHING from that point on, it’d be suspect- this is someone that actually goes after you, though). You’re not somehow defective just because you’re of the female gender. I get that it’s depicted that way, because that’s all you hear about- but it’s just implict deception (the situation would have to be this way in order for what they’re saying to be true, but it’s not true).
By-the-way: That thing you said about everyone being on medication- Don’t you find that strange? There’s never anything “fine with you,” is there? If they’re just believed because of their college education, it’s pretty easy to lie. Someone going to college doesn’t make them trustable. Also, someone can start out trustable & then change. Add in someone being too arrogant to catch their own mistakes (and won’t ever question or contradict the information that they are so “wonderful” for possessing, because that would kick the chair out from under their ego addiction).
What you’re feeling is what happens sometimes in these situations. They use that somewhat automatic trust. Not to be condescending, but it’s usually harder (not impossible, but harder) for women to “throw someone out.” That kind of 100% against someone type of state can be a bit more confrontational than is smooth & easy for a woman. It’s very “destructive” & women tend to be more about bolstering things than chopping them down.
They use subtle tactics to cause misery & general detriment, then try to run a guilt-trip on people by saying that they try to help. How is it, then, that they act in this way? Why doesn’t it bother them to the point of not engaging in this kind of behavior? Because it doesn’t bother them, that’s why. If they REALLY felt such altruistic feelings, they wouldn’t be okay with imposing these kinds of situations on people.
One more thing: Look at the kinds of tests & “treatments” they do. I know I’ve said it before, but it’s the type of thing a serial killer would think up (and there is a major attraction to the medical profession because of a perceived control of life & death, as well as the general trust & camouflage- if someone just thinks “whatever the doctor does is fine” & that they “steer the ship,” that would make them much easier prey on top of everything else).
I guess not being able to identify with someone like that might make it harder to really come to the conclusion that this is what they are, but you don’t need to have something in common with someone in order to be able to grasp their way of being. For myself, I do occassionaly have to remind myself of that fact (because you tend to look within & think “what would I do?” as a method of sizing things up). You’re not dealing with you- just keep that in mind. Sorry this was so long, but I wanted to hit a couple of different subjects.
Not giving accommodation for modesty except for religious or cultural reasons is wrong. The example being that a Muslim woman can demand female only staff but anyone else cannot. The doctors who do not care are the doctors who are trained to see the patient as their disease or a diseased body part not a whole person.
“Hey there is a person attached to this vagina”
Yes, Moo, you’ve put it right. You know, something’s come to my mind. Look, if a Jehova witness has the right not to agree to even save his/her life by blood transfusion – a very serious thing and decision to make up which stems from his/her faith, there should be no question at all in the case of women who are not only Muslim, but who are Buddhist, Christian, and of other creeds to ask for a female staff only. Actually, religion can’t be the most important issue because we all can ask for female staff (women) and male staff (men) regardless of our faith, just because we don’t wish to be exposed in front of the opposite sex while treatment or examination.
In my birth plan in the UK, I put it clearly in writing that I wished only female midwives and female doctors – female professionals, and I had what I’d asked for. I loved the way they respected my choice. I haven’t heard a good opinion about doctors in the UK, but I must admit that childbirth and respect to the woman during labour and to her intimacy in the UK is wonderful. Though it was a childbirth and I didn’t think about embarrassement (in exruciating pain), I was treated with a huge respect to my psyche and body and the very thought of two midwives and my husband with me made me feel very happy. I just asked for the female staff – nobody opposed at all. Great Britain should be the best example of humane and intimate childbirth. This is not only my feeling about it.
And just one thing – in the UK pregnancy care is the same as in Scandinavian countries, in Holland and Ireland – no vaginal exams during pregnancy and this is a great plus. There’s no stress of going to the midwife once a month.
And what you wrote: “Hey there is a person attached to this vagina” should be said or written by every woman to make it clear to the medical staff. It should be written in a very bright colour, in capital letters on a sheet of paper and stuck to women’s clothes.
I believe it would work.
A point is that they made a decision about their lives, and that’s the way it went. They (medical personnel) are not confrontational about it when it’s religiously-based, but they are with everything else. There is a situation where they are backing off & not imposing their own influences.
Personally, I think self-defense is a religiously-grounded reason for things. It’s not really a modesty concern, anyway- modesty has to do with not encouraging sexual desires. It’s not “arousing” things. It’s a self-defense issue, deflecting something of this nature being imposed on you. If a guy was in prison & someone was trying to throw him across a bunk, so he slung the guy to the floor & broke his neck- that wasn’t securing modesty. That’s not an immature thing. It’s not down-trodden or defective, either.
Jola- I remember you posted about how they were trying to make all kinds of internal exams compulsory for women for work in Poland. This would have been a sanctioned iatrogenic attack. If the government decided that it was fine for a husband to smack his wife for being late with dinner, however- that would be a serious problem, no matter what color it was painted. It would be question of self-protection & not something to ridicule or marginalize.
Not to be cruel, but I truly do believe that Americans, in general, would allow such a thing to be implemented & would get aggressive with anyone that took issue with the situation. I might be wrong about that, but they’ve had a hell of a track record for having a “what they say goes” type of stance with doctors. They don’t seem real concerned about cops, soldiers, TSA, school security guards, or anyone else for that matter. It’s got me very concerned that America will turn into a passive-aggressive version of the Third Reich.
Example of doctors only giving patients the information they want them to know or what suits them.
Women found a small lump on her back about one inch from her spine. Goes to walk-in clinic, is referred to plastic surgeon to “clean out the cyst”. Waiting room is full of anxious women clutching X-rays. The surgeon looks at the lump, pokes it and then says it is a lipoma, a usually benign tumour. She can remove it for $400 but the scar will be noticeable and it might grow or not. Because it is considered “cosmetic” government health insurance will not pay for it to be removed or biopsied.
Fast forward about seven years, the tumour starts growing slowly at first and exponentially. It is causing pain when the women sits, drives and it itches. She is worried because she does not have money for surgery. She has a new doctor. She goes there and very quickly she is given an ultrasound. The ultrasound confirms the size and that the tumour appears well differentiated (clue to being benign). Another surgeon is lined up and surgery happens covered by government insurance. The surgeon says there is 0.5% chance of cancer (compare with 0.0089% chance of cervical cancer in Canada). The tumour taken out is very large, fills a quart size container, loss of blood, six inch incision, large cavity in back.
So the women finds out from the internet later that government insurance will only cover lipoma removal of at least 10 cm size in any dimension. No one told her that. She would have not let it get so large. Some tumour that has 0.5% chance of being cancer is not treated but all cervical dysplasia MUST be treated. So is squamous cell or glandular cell cancer more dangerous than lipid cell cancer?
Probably this is in the wrong section.
I don’t know if this is your point, but them not treating a tumor until it’s huge & acting like they care about getting to cervical cancer early at the same time. They have a red alert on something that isn’t even a common ailment, but an existing problem is disregarded. It’s the same theme of “cancer getting worse,” but they blow it off if it isn’t in a location they want to play with.