Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog. (click on title or graphic to go to comments)

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Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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3,978 Responses to Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

  1. katrehman says:

    Oh my days ladies daily mail today. Storm of protest about the Aussie move to 5 year HPV testing .petitions protesting against it….

  2. Elizabeth says:

    Breast self exams and clinical breast exams are not recommended, many of us choose not to have mammograms, we’re told to be “breast aware” and see a doctor if we feel or see something new, like dimpling of the skin or a lump.
    I know some women still do something close to self examination, where they section the breast and palpate each area.
    I just take note of the normal look of my breasts in the mirror after I shower, I also use some liquid soap in the shower and run my hand over each breast, lightly, part of the washing process, not palpating…
    The late Prof Austoker promoted breast awareness, I don’t think that involved touching the breasts, just being observant.
    Some women do more than observe, they might use shower wash to gently run their hand over each breast, others apply more pressure or section off the breast similar to the old self-exam.

    I was speaking to a workmate yesterday, it’s not working for her. The idea with breast awareness was to act if you see something unusual/different AND avoid the risks with mammograms, radiation, anxiety, over-diagnosis, false positives and excess biopsies.

    So she checks her breasts in the mirror every day but also lightly touches each breast, looking for lumps, more than observing, less than the full self-exam.
    Now because she doesn’t have mammograms, her GP said to be very careful and see her promptly with any changes. About 3 years ago at 52 she felt a small pimple, it was difficult to see, just feel, so she went to the GP, who did a CBE and sent her for a mammogram. “Something” appeared (nothing to do with the pimple, which was ruled out as a skin tag, we get more bumps and marks as we age, inside and out) anyway, chasing the rabbit down the hole resulted in another 2 mammograms, ultrasound and biopsy.
    Nothing found…
    Last year she “thought” she felt a thickening, so the same thing happened…

    Her point to me…I would probably have had less radiation if I’d had two yearly mammograms as part of the program, she feels either way, they’ll get her. After the last scare, she’s afraid to check her breasts and can understand why some women view them with fear and suspicion and why some opt to have them removed…

    I know breast cancer is a concern so many women feel they should be doing “something”…mammograms, breast awareness (no touching or only light touching) or breast self-exams. Just wondered if others have found choosing not to have mammograms and doing something else has actually led to more mammograms and interventions.
    My workmate said her GP is cautious with her too because, “you’re one of my unscreened patients”…so she feels she gets sent off very quickly.
    I haven’t had any issues and I’m almost 59 but that might be because I look, I don’t do any sort of breast exam. (and only light touch during the washing process)

    • adawells says:

      From what I have read in accounts of women who’ve had an aggressive cancer you will know about it if you get it. A woman (who had attended mammograms and had negative results) got a small pins & needles tingling in her breast, and this turned out to be a rare aggressive cancer. Of course the press seized on this to promote screening instead of being aware of the symptoms.

      I don’t know of anyone who’s declined mammograms and then found herself getting more treatment as a result of her decision. I know when I first went to my ex-GP with post-menopausal bleeding 3 years ago, she wanted to kick the appointment off with a breast exam, as GP’s are sent alerts that you have declined mammograms. I had a very unhappy row with her and followed this up with a letter of complaint to the practice, then followed this up with letters to everywhere else, but it gets you nowhere.

      Hazel Thornton has done a lot for exposing the DCIS scandal, as she was diagnosed with this herself many years ago. She did the research and realised that women were being pushed into mastectomies for something that wouldn’t change in their lifetime. She’s an academic and has written papers with your Alexandra Barratt.

      I have never forgotten a lady who posted on patient.co.uk about how a mammogram has put her on a conveyor belt of biopsies and painful tests for years. She has had one of those marker clips put in as the questionable area picked up by the first mammogram is too normal to pick out again and the last few years of her life have been spent poking and prodding this area in repeat hospital appointments. The breast now has so much internal scarring that it obscures any possible cancer which may be there, so necessitating more invasive resting. As nothing has ever been found, she is one of a growing number of women regretting that she ever had that mammogram. I could have spent these last few years completely free of all this, she wrote.

    • Heather - Australia says:

      It is hard to imagine how scared and anxious that woman must be if she is checking her breasts every day! It is borderline obsession. And it is completely useless for prevention. Breast tumours are not juvenile pimples: they don’t pop up overnight. A tumour appears out of one cell and grows slowly. So checking breasts every day for any changes will totally miss slow growths, and will instead pick up normal, benign changes in tissues that appear depending on temperature, diet, transient cold/flu, minor traumas, hormonal variations and so on. To be even remotely able to feel a true tumour, she should be checking no more frequently than once every 2-3 months. Otherwise it is a totally pointless disturbance of her breasts, and one shouldn’t be doing that unless it is a part of a much more enjoyable process.

  3. katrehman says:

    Ada I’m not on sny social media but instagram. .. ladies any and everywhere. . Please raise awareness x

    • Mary says:

      I’m not on social media either, but there’s a pap smear facebook page of outraged women..

      • Mary says:

        Don’t you love how the changes in screening are messing with these outraged women’s minds? We the lunatic fringe, now we have the president of the AMA supporting what we’ve been saying all along. Vindication. But why do these women who love taking what their doctors say as gospel have such a hard time listening to their doctors now? It’s just absurd that some women are not capable of understanding that knowledge in science is constantly evolving.

      • adawells says:

        https://plasticdollheads.wordpress.com/2017/01/14/the-fear-mongering-of-the-smear/

        Hi Mary, could you give me some clues how to find them? Browsing Facebook I’ve only come across the rabid pro-screening brigade who want smears forced on everyone.

        A lone voice of commonsense is the blog post above.

      • Mary says:

        Adawells I just googled pap smears and facebook and it came up first on the list. My pro pap smear false positive victim, “I had cin 3 I wouldn’t be alive here today” friend told me about it. Thanks for giving me the link of the AMA president saying these women are misguided. I sent that to her.
        Elizabeth, two medical textbooks that I have had to use both repeat the myth that cervical cancer is common and pap smears have been the greatest success story in screening. So no wonder GPs are misinformed.

      • Mary says:

        Sorry Adawells that’s what I was talking about. The propap outraged facebook group. My friend told me about them. I think she thinks they know what they are talking about and I don’t.

      • adawells says:

        https://ama.com.au/ausmed/cervical-cancer-screening

        Mary, perhaps you could show Ms I-wouldn’t-be-here-today this announcement from Michael Gannon. I’ve not seen one so honest about the damage this test does to women and their babies, but it was all done “in good faith”. How can a gynaecologist of his standing say this when a lot of us women suspected all this from 1989?

      • Mary says:

        I notice the Dr doesn’t mention miscarriages. That would open up a can of worms now wouldn’t it? And guess what? My friend had a midterm miscarriage. Was it related to that? We’ll never know as she was older But she never got pregnant again and remained childless much to her regret.

      • adawells says:

        I’ve just had a look on Facebook and seen the Aussie posts. They are delusional. Someone has set up a Facebook page called:

        Cervical screening – right to refuse

        Only one I can find speaking out.

  4. Elizabeth says:

    The petition started after a doctor and nurse expressed their concern to a patient about the changes, moving to 5 yearly screening and starting at 25. I know many doctors don’t understand or are unaware of the evidence, many seem to confuse “treatment for pre-cancerous cells” as stopping cancer in its tracks. (when it’s mostly over- treatment) We know women under 30 don’t benefit from pop testing, but lots will end up being “treated” and we also know most women are hpv- and not at risk of cc.
    I had a young GP say to me once, “you wouldn’t say that if you saw all the abnormal smears in young women”…she was gobsmacked when I replied, “not at all, I’d expect it, you understand they’re false positives, don’t you?”
    It was clear she didn’t understand, she believed the hype, I also, wonder how cervical screening is presented at Medical School.
    So you have women deliberately misled for decades, plus enormous pressure to screen, lots of scare tactics AND doctors who don’t have a clue or choose to mislead women.
    The Petition will go nowhere, the juggernaut has been re-positioned and will churn into action in July.
    Actually, I expected more push-back last year, but the “convenient” explanation was accepted by many….that HPV vaccination now makes it safe to extend screening intervals and to start later.
    Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive…

  5. katrehman says:

    Ada I checked dollheads out. .she talks a lot of sense! As to the Aussie storm..it’s ironic the program is a victim of its own success. Women who were told how rampant CC is now terrified y the thought of less frequent smears!

    • adawells says:

      Exactly Kat and Elizabeth, they deliberately created this hysteria that we’re all about to drop dead from cervical cancer, and that every single smear is a life saver, and now they’ve got to get the message across that a quarter as many tests would do the job any way. Of course there’s a bottomless pit of taxpayers money available for this purpose, and the elderly parked on trolleys in hospital corridors can just be left in their own urine soaked sheets. Screening juggernaut must have priority.

    • Heather - Australia says:

      For too long Australian women have been brainwashed into the belief that they will sure die if they don’t present their cervix for scraping every 2 years. For decades, we’ve been told that “cervical cancer is the most common cause of death in women”. Of course huge herds of ignorant sheeple are going to think that they are about to be murdered as the old cervix-butchering program is on its way out.
      The screening Nazis clearly overdid it with their scaremongering. So now they will have to come up with new hype, slogans and tactics. And they will, no doubt about that.

  6. adawells says:

    https://www.healthwatch-uk.org/news/121-winter-2016-17-healthwatch-newsletter-out-now.html

    Peter Gøetzsche has been given an award by Healthwatch. He has written a great article on pages 6-8 of the latest edition about mammograms, which you can download from the link.

  7. Elizabeth says:

    Women here have been warned not to miss their two yearly Pap tests, the program suspected some women were waiting for the new 5 year hpv program to start. So you can’t have it both ways, mislead and deceive and then do a 360 when it suits, I suppose they thought the trusting herd would ask no questions and just follow along compliantly.
    Not sure if you can access the Medical Observer, but there’s an article expressing concern that the Petition is gaining traction, a call is made for the Govt to start an “education” program.
    So I assume a suitable “story” will be presented shortly, new evidence is probably the safest one (for them) Of course, this new evidence is anything but, two yearly Pap testing amounts to serious over- screening, that’s been known for decades. We’ve known for ages that over-screening means more false positives and over-treatment. We’ve known Pap testing is harm/risk for no benefit for those under 30 since at least the 1960s or 1970s, I believe we conveniently “questioned” this research to block changes for as long as possible.
    Everyone was happy to scrape, cut and burn HUGE numbers of women, it’s usually this group that call themselves survivors….of course, they’re almost all simply victims of the program and the greed of those who’ve benefited from the excess. Most of this damage was avoidable, but no one cared to protect women.

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if they were finally exposed as medical abusers? They’ve happily trotted out misinformation for decades, they were even happy to coerce women into testing. (Arguably that means no consent at all, you could say that applies when women are misled into screening)
    Some may call for a full and independent enquiry – bring it on!
    Apparently, senior and high profile doctors are being asked to respond to some of the comments attached to the online petition.
    Of course, every approach simply highlights there’s a lot of stuff that doesn’t make sense, but so cocky is this program they intend to do hpv testing on women aged 25 to 29, when they know this will simply send a lot of young women off for excess colposcopy and biopsy.
    The fact is they simply don’t care about women, it’s about control, exploitation and profits, pretending to be screening.

    • Mary says:

      I used to be able to access the Medical Observer and then I was denied access. I shouldn’t have made so many critical comments. I think I got banned. Lol.
      They will say it’s because of the HPV vaccine. That’s what I’ve been hearing, although it doesn’t explain why women who are too old to get the vaccine are also included in the new program.

      • Elizabeth says:

        Hi Mary
        I’ve heard that too and naturally, that scares the life out of the girls who opted for no hpv vaccination (or their parents said No) or those who were older than 26 when it was released or those already sexually active when they were vaccinated etc.
        Hopefully, more women will smell a big, fat rat…

      • Elizabeth says:

        It’s really telling when you read through the comments attached to the Petition, “I had cervical cancer at 16 and was saved by a Pap test, I’d have been dead at 25” or
        “Three of my friends had treatment for cervical cancer before they turned 20″…
        No surprises there, I’m sure they were…but they were actually over-treated and should never have been tested in the first place. You can see why they went to 25 and not the evidence based starting age if 30! The Dutch had no problem with their new program because they’ve never officially tested before 30.
        No attempt was made to wind our program back, they just kept seriously over-screening and over-treating, so we now have senior doctors telling us why we should make this change, but they’ve known about these issues for many years and either remained silent or attacked/discredited/dismissed those with concerns. Hardly surprising many see the contradictions…

        Previously, these early “scares” were probably considered helpful, scaring women into future testing compliance, sending them off to urge others to do the same thing, but now the lies are not so helpful. So many women have faced an “abnormal” Pap test and had “cancerous” cells removed, naturally, these women are appalled at the changes. The perfect mass deception is now a barrier to change…

        There was some research comparing Pap test results of young women with Gardasil records, that made clear some of our GPs were testing girls under 17. This is pure incompetence, but some gp’s felt “high risk” girls should be tested or they couldn’t see the harm starting the test early, one doctor said it sets up good screening habits.
        So our screened group has been well over-treated thanks to excessive and inappropriate Pap testing. The comments now being made by the AMA and others is what we’ve been saying for a long time now but we were blocked, censored, moderated, banned (up until recently) It says to me the profession here has so little respect for women that it really didn’t occur to them there could be serious push-back.
        The program has brainwashed many, the testing program has created a huge group of “survivors” – you can’t now demand that women believe something completely different, especially after you’ve been reinforcing the misinformation up until very recently…
        Treating women like fools, assuming we can all be manipulated and re-directed at their will, might just end up biting them on the backside.
        About 77% of screened women have had something done to their cervix…77%…and you’re now telling these women that cc is actually quite rare, it’s safe to extend the screening interval etc.

      • Mary says:

        Hi Elizabeth,
        On the radio this week they talked to the doctor who wrote an article about the new HPV test in the SMH the other day. Anyway, this older sounding women rang up and complained that why couldn’t women do self testing like the colon cancer test. She complained how undignified it is. The doctor just minimised it and said that the doctor should talk you through it if you are anxious etc. The Dr also said self testing is less accurate.
        I thought to myself here’s another women who doesn’t realise she can just say no if she doesn’t want to. I wished I could have told her about this site.

  8. Alex says:

    Hello, everyone. Haven’t been on here in a while & thought I might ask a question: How can a Canadian woman get birth control without doctors? I was walking around & talking with this woman from my hostel (I’m in Portugal right now) & she had mentioned birth control in Canada was an issue & I remembered that somebody in here found an angle. It wasn’t the one about getting them from the psychiatrist, it was some website (I think).

    If I see her again, I’d like to give her an angle (I already told her it was illegal & I had tracked that down for some woman from Canada, but it might be good to give an option that she doesn’t have to butt heads with people on. I’ll refer her to this site anyway, I just was wondering about it & thought I’d ask.

    • Elizabeth says:

      Hi Alex
      Hope you’re enjoying Portugal, I enjoyed a brief visit about 8 years ago, loved Sintra and Obibos…and the warm Portuguese custard tarts in Lisbon, yum.
      Not sure about the official position in Portugal but I think most pharmacists will supply you with the Pill, over the counter, with no script. I’d go into a pharmacy and ask…

      I found the pharmacists to be really helpful. I used the opportunity to get some more cream for dermatitis, it was quite hot during my stay and I felt dermatitis was starting on my neck. It’s important to start using the cream as soon as you notice it starting, it can become nasty very quickly, esp if it’s humid.
      I have to see a doctor here for repeats even though I’ve used the cream on and off with no drama for over ten years. The Portuguese pharmacist simply ran through the adverse reactions I might experience, and handed it over, much cheaper than Australia too.

      While I was waiting a man asked for migraine meds, he was a tourist too, the pharmacist called a doctor, had a chat and handed over something for the migraines.
      Our pharmacists are under-utilised, the AMA and others refuse to work with them, desperate to protect market share and profits, they want to keep us going in to collect scripts/repeats. I now pay $80 for a 5 minute consult to collect a repeat, and get $20+ back from Medicare.
      I know one Portuguese pharmacist had a doctor on site who authorised some drugs after a quick consult.
      I’m sure someone will give you the reliable on-line pharmacy sites, but I’d be surprised if your friend had trouble getting the Pill in Portugal.
      Enjoy Portugal…

      • Alex says:

        Yeah, Spain & Portugal seem to be much better with that, but she lives in Canada. Haven’t seen her in a while & I didn’t give her my number, since I grew up with that as a romantic/dating sort of thing & she has a boyfriend.

        I know it’s not necessarily that way, I just was a little nervous that I was going to weird her out & she looked like she really wanted to get some sleep. I’m kind of regretting it, since I enjoyed her company & I generally just “get along” with others.

  9. Elizabeth says:

    Sorry, Canada is a whole other matter.
    Sure someone can help with a website but I think Canada stops shipments of prescription drugs, or that’s a risk anyway…
    Hopefully, one of our Canadians can give you some advice.
    Can you still get the Pill OTC in California and Oregon? Just curious…

  10. adawells says:

    http://snip.ly/j39bo#http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4222628/Surge-women-s-hair-transplants-BIKINI-LINES.html

    I haven’t been able to stop giggling over this all evening.😁 Women seeking pubic hair transplants after they’ve had a few too many waxes.😀😀 Idiots! This woman has had hair taken from the back of her head inserted into her “front bottom”. I wonder if she has beautiful long hair, as she may find her pubes down to her knees in a few months time. 😂😂
    There could be some interesting possibilities for men who are getting thin on top by having a reverse procedure by getting a luxurient crop of curly pubes on top.😅 Only in the Daily Fail.

  11. katrehman says:

    Hi linda and ada. ..it’s mind boggling!! Talk about lol

  12. katrehman says:

    Daily mail yesterday ladies ehy you shouldn’t totally rely on your pap test result……

  13. Penelope says:

    I’m sorry. I won’t laugh. I won’t.

    Hi Everyone:

    Sometimes it’s hard to know when to jump into the comments. My heart goes out each time I read all the heartwrenching testimonies on here. But, I know I can’t answer everyone and our veterans on here are so much better with poviding medical studies and information than I am. My apologies for not helping, but I’m here to support. And then, I’m inspired and my hope for women’s health is encouraged by the medical articles and information that our veterans continue to present on our site.

    I looked at this article, and became seriously disappointed yet again. I’m so, so, so tired of women being exploited. Yes, women who pose naked (like this idiot who put her naked crotch on display in the Daily Mail for this private matter) – get what they pay for – they did it out of low self esteem and for money. They eventually learn that it’s not empowering, but reallllly stupid – and I notice, they don’t do it again. It’s when women who didn’t ask for it – are exploited in the medical profession – that breaks my heart. And, it’s always, always, ALWAYS a man that comes up with this crap to work on women’s intimate body parts. Women line up like idiots. There’s also vaginal rejuvination surgery. So, women, allow themselves to go unconscious so that some man, who will never be their husband, can – in addition to “helping them,” play with their vaginas, masturbate to them, take pictures for private use – it’s been done – just check the news. I saw a site, where the bastard put the pictures he took while they were unconscious, on display – to show the procedure worked. I don’t see any pictures of men who’ve penile or male enhancement surgery on any website. I dare say that if women were prominent in the medical profession that they would come up with these procedures and not exploit women like that. If it must be done, AREN’T there any women doctors who perform this procedure?

    I made the mistake of watching childbirth shows again. What the devil was I expecting. I guess I was feeling bad and needed to get angry at something to take my mind off of my problems. The shows are nothing but exploitation. Showing women with nurses and male doctors putting their fingers up their vaginas for cervical check that don’t help with the childbirth process. They get away with showing parts of their open legs. Funny, how there are no shows about male procedures with testicles and penises scrambled out. Did these women know that 16 years later their naked vaginas exposed during birth would still be on display on TV. My God. This – sigh – female ob/gyn – was having such a good time digging in this woman’s vagina for a premature baby. The woman was screaming to the top of her lungs. This is called birth trauma. She should have taken her for a C-section – not put that woman through hell on video. She pressed so hard she hurt the baby’s chest and whisked him away out of the room to save him – clearly it was her fault and she had to correct it. In all the flurry the male cameraman – it’s in the credits – had the camera on her open naked legs for seconds after the doctor walked away. So let me get this straight: If a women’s pubic hair shown in a movie – the movie is rated R – if full on nudity – rated X. Yet these bastards show this woman’s naked exposed vagina and there is no culpability – no responsibility because a baby came out??????

    Oh yes they scrambled it, but only an unconscious man wouldn’t know what he is seeing. They treated her with less dignity than an animal giving birth. These women sign off on the contracts – likely the production pays for their expenses – as compensation. Likely they don’t show them the final product. I’m sure they are horrified to see themselves exposed – 15 years later on T.V. There was a woman who sued one of those emergency room shows because she didn’t sign or consent to the footage of her husband being brought in with a heart attack. He died. She couldn’t be bought. She sued the hell out of them. I’ve noticed now, that this channel has scrubbed most of the recent shows – likely as far back as to where the statute of limitations have expired, thus why they keep showing shows that are 10 -16 years old. The others must have had ironclad contracts – or the patients rationalized to let it go as they got paid. Outrageous. In other places, that ‘s called prostitution.

    I have to stay in prayer. This must end. But, it will have to start with women finally taking back their power. We are on our site. Millions of others did in the march in Washington, DC and in different countries (did any women here participate?) in January. This momentum must keep up.

    Everyone be blessed.

    • adawells says:

      Sorry if I’ve caused any upset, but the Daily Fail is such a rag. I strongly suspect that the woman in the article is one of their own journalists.

      • Penelope says:

        Oh no, Adawells – it’s not you. It’s the article I’m disappointed with. I hope someone can answer IMustBeSurrounded – soon. I’m not sure of the answer, but someone here knows.

        I read the Daily Mail from time to time. It’s funny how you call it the daily fail. It is – a tabloid. Like People magazine has nearly become, the Star, the Sun, the Enquirer. Only People magazine and the Daily Mail (I don’t think…) don’t show the very bad cartoonish pictures of aliens.

        Please do laugh if it brightens your day. Remember the article I mentioned on robotic vaginas…that was ridiculous. Haven’t heard if they got it approved or not.

        But, this article is one of many that I could have tripped over in the course of the day. It goes on to show a video presentation of another woman getting a designer vagina. (?!!!) This woman looks like she’s had alot of work done, and is therefore very shallow and vain, and has such low self esteem (like the pubic hair woman before) that she would submit herself to that – and on video. There’s this systemic, institutionalized, disrespect for women by this systemic, desensitization of the words breast, vagina, and to an extent, labia and vulva, and clitoris in the media. The idea seems to be that as long as they keep printing it, the words will stop being private. I sure as hell don’t see this same treatment of penis, testicles, and scrotum; not even the word prostate. No, those are still “dirty” words. Can’t you tell this is perpetuated by the male marketing execs who want to see this in the media, but nothing to do with their pee-pees. It’s too vulgar to mention men’s penises (right). Vulgar is their code word for – embarrassing – no talking about pee-pees…they’re mentally still twelve year old adolescents still peeking at girls through key holes and are insecure about their size.

        That article about the pubic hair woman goes on to mention celebrities – who clearly are shallow and not thinking – who support pubic hair restoration after waxing – the word vagina is thrown around like a frisbee (?!) They’re speaking as if discussing the cure for cancers and the remedy for world peace. It’s galling that and I realize that, women perpetuate this disrespect for women – by posing nude and in their very small underwear at will on social media; in skin care ads (if I had a dollar for every woman I’ve seen shown in the shower for a shower gel or fast-drying lotion…..); posing in and wearing body paint and pasties in public because that is considered to be clothed by law (?!) and talking about body parts routinely. What is this – trend – of women who present themselves on t.v. as girlfriends just hanging out, talking about intimate parts on camera. This is definitely a marketing strategy – the “as long as we’re talking about “serious” issues, we can say vagina a thousand times” strategy. Breastfeeding – I missed the day when people stopped calling it the respectful word – “nursing.” All added up, it is indeed nothing more than systemic disrespect for women. Then, women wonder why when they get to the gyn’s office that they are expected to disrobe and get in stirrups for the doctor, the nurse, and medical students to see; why childbirth is a three-ring circus in hospitals where nurses and male doctors (and now male nurses ?!) think they have the right to stick their fingers up vaginas for cervical checks and then have an audience while they give birth – because they sweat through medical and nursing school. There’s alot of information out there that says those checks are harmful and necessary; that women need to have respect and privacy, and the baby will come – on their time. Birth is induced to move the mom along….the nurses and doctors are tired of waiting and want to move on….

        So, society says that women don’t care, based on all that is out there in the media – perpetuated by womennnnnn – so, why not trust the guy in a lab coat. There are self absorbed women who rationalize that they don’t think it’s sexual to them, so it can’t be sexual to the doctor. However, the doctor, the night before and on the way to work staring at his cellphone, saw allllllllllllllllll that social media with women who were paid to expose themselves naked for skincare ads, porno maybe; saw R-rated with movies with nude women in sex scenes (paid). As far as he’s concerned, it is sexual and women are stupid not to care. Then there’s just enough sheeple lined up in his office to make him believe just that. There’s an article i came across about pap smears by the way….People in the comments section mention our site. These sheeple are clearly brainwashed. They call us anti-medicine and are only into holistic remedies and tried to discredit us. Nevermind they serve themselves up for abuse. By the time they realize that they’re being abused, they will become ashamed and quietly bow out. It’s just a matter of time before they will eat their words.

        All women have to do is realize the media still shows men fully clothed – with the occasional bare chest and they sure as hell don’t get together talking about penises – throwing that word around adnauseum. No, if they ever show such a thing, then it’s about being studly and performance and condoms….another degrading reference to women. These aren’t husbands getting together after all.

        No, adawells, this article, was just another straw on the proverbial camel’s back. I was a curious cat, and I just wish I had noted it like I usually do these things and hadn’t clicked on it. Thanks for the information, though – no point in putting my head in the sand like an ostrich.

        Be blessed.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        It’s a very poor piece of writing, I doubt any real research was carried out…the claim is made that 1 in every 2 women will get ovarian cancer – what? Hardly….not even close.

        Also, suggesting routine TVU and CA-125 blood tests is a highly controversial position, it’s not backed by the evidence, neither test is recommended here I’d never permit them. if you’re going to suggest a routine test, you should at least explore the downside to the test and the actual benefit. (not the spin)
        Also, to say American doctors are concerned about HPV testing due to the high number of false positives, give me a break – if you test the right way, you’d see over-treatment rates plummet. These people have knowingly over-screened and over-treated huge numbers of women for decades, any concerns will be about their bottom line, nothing to do with the welfare of women.

  14. IMustBeSurrounded says:

    Hi Everyone! LONG TIME since I’ve been here – but I still keep up on the site. I think you guys covered this for me once before a few years back…but can you remind me…

    If you are High Risk HPV Negative and you are on a confidently monogamous relationship, will you continue to be High Risk HPV Negative?

    They say that the virus can “lay dormant in the body for years and then spring up, so you must continue to be tested” – hmmm.

    Thanks all!

    • Alice (Australia) says:

      This medical caveat about HPV lying dormant and then popping up later always seemed like a fallacy.

      The logic is simple: if our bodies weren’t able to develop immunity against viruses, vaccines wouldn’t work. So the medical fraudsters really should decide what they want to lie about: the virus dormancy theory or the efficacy of vaccination.

      Quacks simply want to trick women into coming back for check-ups and more tests, to keep women under control and make more money. Surely they don’t want monogamous women to test once, find out they don’t have HPV and never come back.

      It also possible that the male-ruled medical world either doesn’t want women to start being suspicious of their partner’s fidelity or hygiene, or male doctors make the “you can never trust your partner 100%” conclusions based on their own life (anyone who spent enough time on any dating website, would tell you that the majority of most promiscuous and perverse users are medical profession).

      • IMustBeSurrounded says:

        ALICE! Thank you so much for your response. This is exactly what I was thinking. How can you fight a virus (cold, flu, hpv) or get vaccinated for it – and then have it POPPING Up again. Than what is the point of the HPV shot! (I know this is a debatable vaccine on every level)

  15. Penelope says:

    ….i write so much, it’s humbling to correct my grammar. Cervical checks – are Not Necessary and Harmful. They do not tell that a woman is about to give birth and they introduce infection – even with gloves on. A woman can be dilated 8 centimeters for days and not give birth…while another woman is not dilated right now, but will give birth in an hour. This is information that’s online. The site Medical Patient Modesty,for example, is a godsend.

    Birth, birth, birth. I don’t recall so much graphic interest in childbirth in the past. But our society is so sexualized, it is somehow inclusive. There’s so much interest in female nudity and implied nudity with strategic coverage. No, childbirth in the media to curious males is code for: women half naked from the waist down – and oh yes, a baby will come out.

    Sigh – when will it stop.

    Be blessed.

  16. Elizabeth says:

    You can imagine some women might panic reading 1 in 2 women will get ovarian cancer, they might consider routine screening tests that are not recommended…they should be forced to print a retraction, it’s more like 1 in 70, not 1 in 2
    How could you make such a huge error? Or, do they do it deliberately….
    Hope most women would see the “article” as absolute rubbish.

  17. adawells says:

    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hpv-self-sampling-become-new-public-cervical-cancer-screening-bonde

    Also new program for Denmark. I think it’s beginning to look like the UK will be overtaken by North Korea at this rate.

    • moo says:

      Interesting but still the same old – woman who does not screen is sent an ominous letter and a weird contraption she did not ask for. I would prefer it all women were offered the self test and it was not wasted on women such as myself who are not interested in screening whatsoever. I would like the screening registries to stop bothering me and let women make their own decisions. Yes I did send in the form to stop the letters or phone calls but if I sign up for a family doctor them I am going to be pestered for screening tests.

  18. moo says:

    I was looking at some articles about the pink pussy hat and women’s marches. Women dressed as giant vaginas or holding up signs with paintings of vaginas etc. They are pushing for human rights and woman’s issues. I really would like to know if they are pushing for more pap tests or less?

    • Penelope says:

      Hi Moo:

      That was awesome back in January, wasn’t it. Women were globally protesting and marching for women’s rights – all rights- not just reproductive. Not to be political – the march was in grand protest against President Trump and the continued fallout from a 2005 tape of him saying extremely vulgar things against women – as well as continuing comments and behavior. As long as he’s in, women – people (there were men in those crowds) will march.

      The march was organized on Facebook. I was trying to find out who the exact organizers are, but to no avail. It seems that these are sporadic organizations, but powerful. Please keep looking for announcements. From what I viewed of the march in January – it was a mixed bag of reasons – for birth control, etc. Those hats were – borderline acceptable – but the posters/paintings and women dressed up I think defeated the purpose of retaining womens’ dignity and respect. There’s enough exploitation out there and all that was, really was more exploitation – I’m sure it had men howling, but not for respect of women. For example, Sports Illustrated, I see has forgotten about actually putting women in swimsuits – it’s now soft porn with partially exposed breasts and the smallest, most revealing bottoms that are more lingerie than any swimsuit – that they could find.

      At the march, at least one actress was advocating for getting testing, but I don’t believe that was the whole crowd. From what I could see there weren’t demands printed on posters in favor of or against testing. That actress is a sheeple – and hasn’t yet had her eyes opened. Or maybe they have been opened but she’s in denial. I’m noticing subtle changes since she’s given birth. It’s likely that she had a bad experience and is trying to live it down. Her views and others out there like hers shouldn’t be a deterrent though, for interest in future marches. What’s good is that the march brought millions of women together globally. I’m sure that a good portion of that whole crowd includes women against testing – i just hope that soon that these marches will include being completely against paps and pelvics. That would be incredible, Moo, if they used that power against the sexual abuse known as pelvic exams and birth trauma against the ob/gyn industry. But, for this moment, the focus is on sending strong messages to the current the U.S. president – who is misogynistic – and just plain unqualified to be president and awful.

  19. katrehman says:

    Remember last year Scotland were so worried about smear uptake they promised a new hard hitting campaign? I came across it yesterday not sure how to post link but Google Scottish cervical cancer campaign . its basically assuming embarrassment is the reason women don’t to and tells you not to fanny about but get tested there’s a picture of flowers which when you tap the play arrow turns into a talking vagina! Its scares me they seriously think it will make people go and the waste of money to a health service on its knees…

    • adawells says:

      Kat, I saw this. I saw it was a close up of a pink rose, with the folds of the petals clearly in the shape of female genitals. I had no idea it spoke. I expect they had a lot of fun making that. Now, I wonder if the bowel screening programme will have a bum hole that talks to you? No, surely advertising like that wouldn’t be acceptable for men, but for silly, immature girlies who waver from embarrassment it’s​ deemed appropriate.

      • katrehman says:

        Ada the vagina didn’t move in line with the speech but u could be forgiven for it as the speech started when it morphed into a vagina!!a talking bum hole. …hmm. .talking out of your backside or talking s…? Lol

    • Penelope says:

      Hi Kat:

      I saw the article. It’s not talking, but there’s a voice behind it in a sing-song sweet Scottish brogue – as sweeeeet as possible saying to stop fannying around and get tested. Yes, Adawells is absolutely right. They don’t do that for men. Can you imagine: a bunch of bananas against a black background, under a spotlight, and a macho male voice scolding and castigating men about getting tested. If they think that it’s all about embarrassment, then they’re sorely wrong. Whoever came up with that ad probably heard it in the wind that women don’t like getting tested – likely a male clueless male gyn – and figured talking to them like children- as he always has – will get women into the offices to pull down their pants. They didn’t consider the whole truth. And nowhere does it mention choice and informed consent.. Truly heinous, Kat.

  20. katrehman says:

    Also they’re still assuming we’re embarrassed..when will it sink in ? If they stopped rubbishing us and produced a more acceptable test more might go! Still they persist in so called hard hitting scare campaigns…and they think we’re daft?!

  21. Elizabeth says:

    They refuse to see we have a choice about screening, these old tactics are completely unacceptable, when will they speak to women and treat us like independent adults? Until attitudes changes, women will be treated like good girls who screen or silly girls who don’t…
    If embarrassment is a barrier, that needs to be accepted and a self-testing option made freely available but that doesn’t negate choice…some women don’t want to screen, end of story. We’re individuals, not a herd to be manipulated and controlled…the attitude that says it’s okay to challenge or ridicule a woman who chooses not to screen needs to be tackled as well.
    Incredible that in 2017 they still promote screening as a must and in a flippant way, talking vaginas, doubt we’ll ever see a talking penis. It’s an insulting way to treat and view women.

  22. Elizabeth says:

    You have only to compare the pressure to have cervical and bowel screening, the latter is close to a yawn in comparison even though that cancer is far more likely. The medical profession and these programs are based on the idea that they know best, so just a Q of capturing us…amazing that view is still so strong.

    • katrehman says:

      Well they have lots of words for vagina don’t they…but my flower/ vagina/ fanjo/pussy/ whatever still won’t be presented for inspection

  23. katrehman says:

    I just emailed Scottish health and told them what I thought and suggested a campaign for the men. Speech bubble from pic of anus belittling and telling them not to die of embarrassent but to have bowel scope screening!

    • adawells says:

      “We hope you will appreciate that the cervical screening programme continues to develop and improve as new evidence emerges.”

      If this test had been properly tested before it was made into a national programme, they would not be having to make corrections to a dodgy 1930’s test today. Plenty of old research papers refer to HPV being the cause of cervical cancer as far back as 1990’s. Action should have been taken in those days to put resources into HPV research and tests. Instead it has all been poured into maintaining screening programs to keep the Pap test on a pedestal.

  24. ChasUK says:

    I just looked up this https://www.jostrust.org.uk/about-us/annual-review-and-accounts – a lot f money made that does not go directly to any actual cancer research.

    https://www.jostrust.org.uk/about-us/finance/how-we-spend-our-money
    It is always about money and greed!

    • adawells says:

      I signed the petition for the tax on sanitary products to be removed, and was horrified to find this money was then being transferred to the coffers of Jo’s Trust.
      I’d like to see a full investigation into these charities. They spend a lot on “raising awareness” which often involves traveling the country speaking for 20 mins at events followed by a good deal of socialising- evening banquets, drinks, not to mention traveling costs and hotel bills. A lot of these people are exhibitionists who love to be seen in the media, but claiming they are only doing it to help others, and that their funny pink costumes are all to help people with cancer think that it’s all a cheeky fun circus. I saw a young mother complain on Twitter that she’d been criticized for appearing in a local newspaper about her “brush with cancer”. Turns out she only had an abnormal smear test once, but, not wanting to miss out on cervical cancer awareness week, had decided to contact the local newspaper and tell them about it. The press duly turned up with the cameras at her home and made a big story about it. From her tweets it seems she came in for some heavy criticism on social media, with people attacking her for being a fraud. “I only did it to help others, not for myself” she tweeted. Of course she did. The press makes lots of sales, and it’s a good awareness raising exercise for the charities. And the number of young women dying from cervical cancer hasn’t changed a bit since 1950’s.

      • katrehman says:

        Yes Ada I remember the TORY MP guffawing that women paid for their services like jos trust by having periods. We pay for the services that bully force and brainwash us into smear testing. …!! Grrrr

  25. Penelope says:

    Happy St.Patrick’s Day!

    I checked out that website, ChasUK. Yes, it’s about money and greed. In the U.S., charities are required to report how much of their funds go towards administration and how much go to the actual research and direct care of the beneficiaries of the charity. For example, the Muscular Dystropy association spends untold sums on research, camps, wheelchairs, braces. They report periodic breakthroughs which are very hopeful. I don’t see this for this charity. I do see support of something that is rare – and subtle scare tactics about symptoms…which are common to fibroids…or abnormal periods, for example, but not cancer. This charity put in painstaking detail about what money goes where – but, from what I see it’s administrative costs. That’s fancy for the people who run the charity. These people do work and then get paid. But no real money is put towards ending cervical cancer or new drugs or new methods to improve survival. If it’s there, then I missed reading everything else. I didn’t notice if they mentioned the rarity of it by the way. No, this is what I call a bleeding heart charity where they set up the site in Pepto Bismol pink, to emote a pretty, friendly, let’s be girlfriends feel. This is an effort to get people to take pity, get emotional, get worried and paraniod, and donate untold sums of money – into their pockets. It is indeed – a business venture for the owners of the charity. They offer no new hope or breakthroughs. At most it’s a club for those who think they have had it (if the diagnosis was correct)t or were scared by a diagnosis that – until further notice – turns out to be negative and need support. The truth about cervical cancer is optional on this site. it sure as heck doesn’t mention about our issues with paps and pelvics and alternative, non-invasive testing. No, it’s just following the status quo. I doubt that all of those women or those that know someone who was affected – where all truly diagnosed – likely a misdiagnosis from all that we have learned about this gyno profession. Abnormal cells are normal, but are misdiagnosed we know. Seeing how rare it is – and mostly not in the U.S. or U.K,, it’s unlikely that these are some of the only people to get it – and have managed to find each other.

    Thanks for the information. Be blessed.

  26. Elizabeth says:

    The so-called cancer charities tend to focus on screening and awareness, not treatments, cures or research. The pink ribbon juggernaut is a slick commercial campaign, but not sure it’s done much for women. You never hear them warning women about the risks of screening, or respecting choice…they seem to focus on fear, so-called survivors stories and raising money for more awareness campaigns.
    I’ve written to a few over the years and was shut down very quickly, zero interest in better screening options, the evidence, over-treatment etc.
    Most woukdn’t recognize the evidence if it bit them on the backside…or they choose to ignore it, their agenda, their survival and the strength of their voice and influence is all important.
    I always look behind these groups, how are they funded? What’s their focus?
    You’ll often find vested interests sitting on the Board watching over their commercial operations.
    Many have contributed to the dismissal of consent and informed consent and have not supported evidence based improvements, unless it sits well with their best interests.
    I tend to dismiss most of them…

  27. katrehman says:

    Hi ladies! Surprise I had a reply to the email I sent Scottish cervical screening about the flower ad in my email I commented on self testing if women were embarrassed instead of rubbishing them and telling them to stop fannying around and how about a talking anus for the men with don’t die of embarrassment get a sigmoidoscopy. Marketing manager Nicola Blackler replied
    Dear kat many thanks for taking the time to provide your feedback on the recent cervical screening campaign. I acknowledge your concerns about the approach used in the campaign. As is the case in england uptake of cervical screening is on the decline whilst the number of deaths from cc is increasing. Its the most common cancer iin young women and. Smear testing is the most effective way of preventing cc from developing. We completely appreciate the decision to be screened is a matter of personal choice and indeed our cc leaflet invitation lerter ect makes this perfectly clear however our research told us that many women don’t attend their smear test because they done wither understand the importance of it or barriers such as embarrassment get in the way. There was therefore a clear need to engage and educate women on the importance of having their smear test and address these significant barriers to attending so they’re more informed and able to make a personal choice when invited
    We needed a campaign that would stand out and grab young women’s attention especially in the digital context where competition for attention is high. We were of course aware of the need to do thus in the right way which was why we commissioned independent research with our target group women ages 25-35
    The flower route came out as the preferred route from testing.The campaign narrative strikes a balance between being scary and empowering (blergh!! Sorry kats comments) which our audience felt the subject needed. Women told UA the subject needed to make them feel uncomfortable and ensure an emotional reaction and reflect how they felt about a smear test itself as well as tacking significant existing barriers to attending
    Moreover the use of informal language resonates well and was engaging and provoked thinking and talking about the ad and issue. The campaign has been received well with strong positive fwedack across all social media platforms
    We do appreciate you taking the time to get in touch .Ultimately we have to be guides by customer insight and campaigns particularly bold ones may always be decisive and can never satisfy everyone. End of msg

    So she seems to be saying worn asked to be patronised and rubbished the way the ad did.and no mention of self testing??? Hmmmm

    • katrehman says:

      Please excuse typos. Still cant type on tablet. She did reply but I feel it’s same old. No mention of self testing and why don’t they have campaigns for the men? Would that ad really make you have a smear test? ??

    • adawells says:

      Thanks for posting this Kat. I’m going to write myself. There is no increase in deaths from cervical cancer, and they continue to fall. Would be interesting where she got this idea from…Jo’s Trust?

  28. adawells says:

    Let’s hope it has no effect.

  29. katrehman says:

    This is the email I sent and she’s ignored a few bits
    I realize I live in england and its nothing to do with me but I’ve just seen your latest attempt into scaring women into having a smear test. Stop fannying around and get tested. And a pic of a flower that morphs into a vagina. Is this really an acceptable and respectful way to address women? The advert makes no mention of informed consent and belittles women by the tone and assuming they don’t attend through embarrassment. If women are embarrassed it’s a big barrier . instead of belittling them why not simply roll out self testing as our Dutch counterparts have done?
    I don’t see any programmes belittling men… How about a picture of an anus with a speech bubble coming out saying don’t die of embarrassment get a sigmoidoscopy?
    Women have been mialws about cervical cancer for years. There will never be respect for informed consent as long as doctors have tarrgeta to hit. I officially opted out in 2015and have all but given up on visiting my doctor as all he’s interested in is my “flower!”

    • linda says:

      Great work Kat. The advert annoyed me as well. Even tho its for Scotland we saw it one night here in the North West. Its more or less saying women are too embarrassed. That’s old hat now. THEY KNOW WE ARE NOT EMBARRASSED. Its just another lie perpetuated by the screening elves.

      Linda x

  30. katrehman says:

    Daily fail 27 March femail. Woman live streamed her smear test to prove it’s not so awful after all if it persuaded even one woman to go it’s worth it zzzzzzzzz…..blergh!

    • Kate Orson says:

      ugh! I don’t think I could watch it! By the way, i have written a blog post describing my experiences after having a LEEP. Thanks to this website, and your book The Truth About Smear Tests, I am starting to have the courage to talk about this. This is the post https://healingfrommedicine.com/2017/03/

    • adawells says:

      It’s another tabloid fest. The channel they’ve broadcast it on is called heymummytv, a real chav channel, and it’s been covered by all the tabloids, including a magazine called LadBible, wtf that is! 😫

      They didn’t get a nurse to do it, they got a private gyno called Tyrone to take the smear.

      I’d send a link, but it’s just too revolting. Don’t go there…

    • Elizabeth says:

      Again, an irrational action, no one is filming their FOBT for bowel cancer and waving it triumphantly…in the hope others will do the same.
      Bowel cancer is more likely than cc…

  31. Allison says:

    Now, for me, this would be more terrifying than any horror movie ever made! I could just see all the perverts streaming in to watch. I’m sorry but I’m sticking with Stephen King, The Conjuring, and other horror films when I want to watch something that would frighten me!

  32. Allison says:

    When you’re a virgin in my situation, there is no convincing “it’s not awful” that you can do to make me give in. Maybe if you found me an attractive guy of my choice to have sex with first…. Nobody has ever been near that area of my body, and some sicko disgusting gyno exam is NOT the way I want to start.

  33. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    https://patient.info/forums/discuss/cervical-erosion-surgery-583818?utm_source=forum&utm_campaign=discussion-notification&utm_medium=email

    This girl is only 17 and facing a surgical procedure for cervical erosion – I know someone here had an early surgery for the same thing. Surely she should get a second opinion.
    She was told the Pill caused the erosion…
    If someone can give her some advice, please follow the link.
    Really worries me when a 17 year old is having something done to her cervix…horrible

  34. adawells says:

    http://www.rivm.nl/en/Topics/C/Cervical_cancer_screening_programme/Facts_and_figures

    A facts and figures page from the Dutch cervical screening programme. How does it compare with your country?

    The UK has nearly 4x the population of the Netherlands, so I multiplied the figures by 4 to see how the UK compares:

    Lives saved per year in NL=175, so in UK it should be 700, but we’re told our wonderful, successful programme saves 5,000 lives…

    Cost of cervical screening in NL= €35 million, so wonderful, successful UK cervical screening should cost €140 million, right? But, no, it costs an extra €35 million approximately, consuming over £175 million of NHS budget.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      Ah. But that’s just the cost of the initial screening, right? Admin costs, costs for the scrape and cytology, and GP incentive payments. And of courses since they’ve thrown HPV testing into the mix, I’m sure costs have risen.
      Add to that figure the costs of all those investigations, pathology, treatments, follow-ups, further medical intervention to deal with the damage caused by those treatments… the cost of ‘preventing cancer’ must be staggering. And in the meantime, people who are genuinely ill can’t get help when they need it!

      I have replied to the young woman facing surgery for an erosion. Let’s just say I was not polite towards the medics who led her into this. Disgusting that the NHS is trying to save money yet doctors are perfectly happy to butcher a young woman’s body over something completely harmless.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Kate, thanks very much, I was worried…at that age it’s easy to be overwhelmed by doctors, and often teenagers and young women trust the medical profession, it’s telling that number falls as we get older and wiser!
        I hope your comment saves her from an unnecessary and bad experience, and as you pointed out, potentially damaging.
        Doctors are so quick to hack away at the cervix, that’s a large part of the problem, doctors viewing our bodies as disposable or disrespectfully.
        I’ve spoken to a few women over the years who’ve had hysterectomies after menopause or even earlier, “you don’t need that stuff anymore, you’ve had your kids, it’s just a potential site for cancer”….
        Umm, are we going to remove all potential sites for cancer or just look at the female body? Also, who says we don’t need the uterus, cervix and ovaries after menopause?
        My view: I value every piece of my body and I’ll protect it from those who don’t share my view of the female body.

      • Diane Spero says:

        i am with you. i protect my body from unnecessary teat and procedures.

      • Cat&Mouse says:

        Any woman considering giving consent to hysterectomy needs to view the various approaches or procedures on youtube. When they say how easy and how great recovery is via a vaginal approach…take a good look. You think you opened up for childbirth? Watch this. Have a pad positioned to catch your falling jaw. Get a second opinion. Note how enthusiastic these male doctors are in the OR! Note how roughly they handle your unconscious body.
        Also, check the “informed consent” for these facts before you sign.
        Post op minimum 25 pound weight gain. Depression.
        Sexual problems: They can either deliberately or depending on process shorten the vaginal length where it connects with the cervix. This prevents the vagina from stretching to accommodate a penis. The anterior fornix is positioned just in front or above the cervix. It is responsible for providing us the “full feeling” as we’re penetrated during sex. It also provides us another way to orgasm independent of the clitoris and g-spot. [while the clit, g-spot, and anterior fornix connect to the spine via lumbar and thoracic innervation, the vagus nerve goes straight to the brain. the vagus is yet another way to orgasm. when that occurs, a “fainting” feeling can result. often that’s stimulated via the posterior fornix…)
        Doctors are clueless to the sexual problems their “answer to all” surgery can cause. However they are well aware of the weight gain issues.
        Depression? If the doctor was ill-informed that a surgery would remove a bodily function he hated only to find out he couldn’t enjoy sex ever again…he’d too be depressed!
        We don’t have any information to consider before offering permission for a pelvic exam and pap scrape. The information offered to us before we sign our life’s qualities away for a hysterectomy is no better than the “bait and switch” from a used car dealer.
        Always, doctors whine when they’re sued how dumb patients are, that we don’t ask questions, that we don’t listen to them explain things…
        In reality, doctors leave their universities trained to sell their specialities, to be deceitful in every aspect of their practice, that lying is acceptable so long as they are the liars.
        Any woman who has undergone cervical brachytherapy for CC. They say that sexual problems due to scar tissue may occur. It’s a factual guarantee. (doctors cause divorce)
        When you wonder why doctors rarely have colonoscopies or other invasive embarrassing tests they force us into, you get a rare view of physicians being afraid of their own procedures.

      • adawells says:

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28374937

        Kate are you able to access this new article on PubMed? It’s researching the harm and distress caused by colposcopy procedures.

      • adawells says:

        I’m so sorry to read what you went through, Kate, and all for nothing. This wretched test has brought so many women into harm’s way. I found seeing a gyno at a busy teaching hospital distressing enough in middle age after having had 2 children. I cannot begin to imagine how I would have dealt with such an experience as a young woman.

  35. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    It’s interesting, Diane…
    I have a SIL who had a hysterectomy in her late 40s, she had fibroids.
    We know fibroids usually shrink after menopause AND they weren’t really a problem for her BUT . the male gynaecologist pushed her to have a hysterectomy, “you’ve had your 4 kids, you don’t need that stuff anymore, I’m sure you don’t want the bother of periods for potentially, the next 10 years, and as a bonus, you’re getting rid of sites that can cause problems, even cancer, uterine cancer is fairly common in older woman”…
    Obviously, that’s not a direct quote, but that’s how it was expressed to me by my SIL, it didn’t occur to her (until later) that she was signing up for unnecessary surgery. She said it now shocks her that it made sense to her at the time, have we been conditioned to view our bodies as disposable as well?
    She went through the surgery, a period of recovery but now thinks she probably should have waited. After it was all gone, she felt a deep sadness and wondered whether she’d given in too easily, whether she should have tried harder to keep her uterus, ovaries and uterus.
    I’ve read it’s quite common for women to grieve the loss of their uterus, ovaries and cervix.

    I don’t know if fewer hysterectomies are happening, they use less invasive techniques these days, does that mean it happens more often? I don’t know, I hope so…
    I know the statistics from the States were horrifying, 1 in 3 will have a hysterectomy before age 60, 1 in 3! Hardly surprising I suppose if you’re seeing a gynaecologist right through your asymptomatic life.
    I firmly believe we should value, respect and protect our bodies, and demand the same from our medical carers.

    • Diane Spero says:

      yes many unecsay hysterectomies are happening.

    • adawells says:

      I had my hysterectomy by keyhole surgery and was discharged home 24 hours later. Uterus, ovaries, cervix all gone, after I had kept them from harm all those years. Ovaries and cervix in perfect condition. As I’d got cancer, it was staged, and the level of surgery you get depends on the stage, and I don’t think I would have found a surgeon anywhere who would have left them in. It was done through the navel, like Kate describes above, and with 2 rods going in either side and then pulled out through the vagina. I am very sad about it all, but there is nothing to see now, and I think of those poor women who have had mastectomies and see their body mutilation every waking moment. That must be far worse. I am otherwise very well, but when I think back about how terrifying the ordeal was, and how flippant and careless staff were at the hospital (“all the women who come through here are only too glad to get one so why aren’t you?”), it brings me to tears.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        That attitude is a large part of the problem, that our reproductive system is a burden and disposable, we should be delighted to see the back of it.
        That may be the case for some women, but not for all women. Medical staff should be sensitive and understand for many women it’s a loss, never assume we’re delighted to be rid of our uterus, breasts etc.
        Our bodies are not disposable, our reproductive organs are not useless/superfluous after menopause, they should be valued and respected right through our lives.
        I don’t think the same attitudes apply when men are having their prostate gland removed, a colleague’s father was offered counseling to cope with the loss and aftermath.
        I can understand your feelings, Ada, I’d feel the same way.

      • adawells says:

        What annoys me the most is that I can no longer go on refusing to take part in the cervical screening programme! Would love to live to a ripe old age, and tell everyone that I didn’t have any smear tests. Perhaps then, and only then, will the brainwashed finally believe how unnecessary it has all been.
        Perhaps I will get to play that part when/if I reach 75 and have never had a mammogram?
        If I reach 100 and I’m asked how I did it, I’ll say I opted out of all that screening crap!

        Great video from Peter Gøetzsche. I like it that he says the women not screening are the educated ones, when our own screening authorities are saying it is the silly, the embarrassed and the ignorant who are not getting screened.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Verrry interesting… I’ve got a cousin who went down this same road…She is very attractive too…
      Her main issues were horrid periods and not being able to conceive. Besides being attractive and naturally blond, she’s particular about her appearance.
      The common denominator of her experiences was how male doctors behaved towards her.
      They couldn’t wait to perform exams. Given her issues, a pelvic exam was always “required” no matter how close together in weeks o/v were. The doctors were always impatient about performing these exams; as always the rectal part to “appreciate” the fibroids and “monitor their growth and number” (and) “rule-out potentially life threatening changes…” For her, the rectal part meant two fingers instead of one.
      It also meant she had to endure several very painful, invasive tests. She spent hours in the stirrups having fluids dripped or otherwise manipulated into her. Ultrasounds. Etc.
      Interestingly of course (I added this per my own sarcasm as we all know this happens)… She told me always after the intense physical exam every doctor practically needed restraining to keep them in the room.
      Collectively they showed little interest in the rest of the exam or o/v. Her history, continuing or new symptoms, what to do or plan, they acted as if bored and wanted to be elsewhere.
      She too ended up in the OR. Fibroids gone, uterus gone. Only they nearly killed her.
      They sutured her uretors closed. These are the tubes leading from each kidney to the bladder.
      These tubes were somehow caught up and sutured along with the normal internal fascia.
      She could not urinate and swelled up. Ended up in ICU. Took over a week to figure it out.
      More surgery; this time on an emergency basis.
      Lost months of work. She did survive however. She had to leave her job and eventually moved to a different state.

  36. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Obviously, I meant to say, I hope they’re doing fewer unnecessary hysterectomies these days.
    If more American women ditch the well-woman nonsense, hopefully, that will mean fewer unnecessary procedures, including hysterectomies.

  37. katrehman says:

    Great post Ada! And where the point is made PSA testing harms men! I’m very proud to say despite all the pressure to screen it’s 17 years since I last had a smear and I’m still alive and yes I refuse mammograms too!

    • adawells says:

      I think we should form a group of people called The Opt Outs, or something like that. So that women and men over the world can discuss their experience of living in a screening mad world. Perhaps a Facebook page? People certainly need to make contact and group together. Congratulations on your 17 years of freedom from the speculum! Long may it last!

  38. katrehman says:

    Thanks Ada and believe me it WILL last! Unless I have a problem down there I will not “invite” the NHS nd it’s speculum and brush to torture my bits!!

  39. CHASUK says:

    Currently reading this at the moment and worth a look IMO
    http://blogs.bmj.com/ebm/category/screening/
    Various screening trials etc. however, it will take time to get through but very interesting.

    • adawells says:

      Thanks for this link Chas, there’s some very interesting reading to be had here. I think Geoffrey Modest talks a lot of sense and manages to tie up a lot of technical medical stuff into every day language.

      It is good to see that he is aware of other European countries which are screening a lot less. It is all about how to wind down the programme, without anybody complaining. It is working backwards – medicine should be about only applying as little as is necessary to cure the problem, and treating only those who who need it. Here, this dreadful procedure has been forced on whole populations without justification, and they are working backwards in how they can reduce and withdraw it, without people realising they didn’t need it anyway.

  40. katrehman says:

    Both in daily fail and mirror today calls for hpv jab to be given to all boys as well as their hpv related cancers is set to outstrip cervical cancer related ones plus sexual health is the responsibility of both sexes….hmm. trying to drum up more gardasil business or….?

    • Alex says:

      Just looking to harm the kids, I guess. It seems Britain has an issue with the public & wants to do general harm however they can. Weapons laws, immigration, medical bullshit (I’d include school bullshit on the subject to count)- whatever comes to mind.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      This is to try and cover the huge muslim male population coming of age. These men are being told to be sexually active with as many native Brit women as possible. Part of their jihad. Political correctness there prevents any direct criticism or health education as it may “offend” muslims everywhere. So the entire population must suffer.
      Similar to Brit police refusing to intervene five years ago when native Brit girls as young as 11 were being bullied into prostitution by muslim men.
      It begins when girls would go to a movie or friendly date with a muslim boy from school. Eventually some kind of sexual contact would occur. Then the girl would be blackmailed into sexual acts vs her parents being informed of her normal experimentation…
      Cops routinely called these victims “tarts” while ignoring the adult men acting as pimps.
      One family even moved to Spain trying to escape and protect their daughter.
      Muslim immigrants brag at refusing to work while drawing welfare. Not only for themselves but also for their “wives.”

    • adawells says:

      Kat, there’s definitely been a lot more demand for this to be given to boys, I’ve noticed it more and more. I’ve checked out the figures at CRUK: cervical cancer= 3,200 cases, head and neck cancers= 3,500 cases for women, but about 12,000 for men. Read somewhere that when women get it in the vagina, they build up immunity over the next couple of years, but when a man gets HPV virus in the mouth they can’t get immunity and is more likely to progress to cancer in this location. Seems the tonsils have more trouble dealing with the virus than a cervix, and seems the tonsils are the places it develops. The rates are set to rise over the foreseeable future so many people are calling for boys to be immunised as well as girls, in line with other countries. There’s also an anger that girls have been used as an infection break to the spread of HPV, and boys not. I think they are waking up to that now.

      • katrehman says:

        That’s interesting Ada…the humble tonsils! Let’s hope it’s not given to boys.or there could be many more cases of hpv vaccine damage…..

  41. CHASUK says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/91324416/Timaru-school-opts-out-of-vaccine-programme
    Timaru primary school Grantlea Downs has opted not to allow a vaccine against Human Papilloma Virus (HPV) to be administered on its grounds.
    South Canterbury District Health Board (SCDHB) chief executive Nigel Trainor raised the school’s stance towards the nationwide immunisation programme during a health board meeting on Friday.
    Trainor said the school’s board of trustees had made the decision not to allow the students to be vaccinated against HPV on site.

  42. Allison says:

    HELP ME! I’M SCARED! I have a women who is battling stage 3 cervical cancer harassing me on facebook about paps. She tells me to go and get one, that I could have CC right now even know it. I don’t want to die. 😢 But I’m a 25 year old virgin who never had sexual contact and want to wait until losing my virginity before having a pelvic exam. I’m tempted to hire a male prostitute to help me lose my virginity, the hottest one in town! Now, I’ll feel better about a pap since no pervy doctor will be playing with my virginal vagina; the hot prostitute got to be the first finger inside of me. I’d ask my male friends but I’m much too shy to bother.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Ignore this women. Ban her from accessing your Facebook page. That simple.
      Rely on science, not hype. A pap is only 53% accurate. I discovered this from the Trovagene site when I used their 93% urine based HPV test. I took my own sample at home in our bathroom. Likewise, the Delphi Screener is just as accurate…
      Do NOT pay a male prostitute to rupture your hymen.
      Your sexual organs are a gift from God.
      Get to know your own body. If need be, you can break your own hymen or go to a clinic to have it done as some women have a very thick hymen which requires medical intervention to break.
      If your friends don’t want to do it, don’t force them to.
      You will eventually find love, and a man or women who will want you, love you, respect you, and want to make love to you just for you being you.
      When this does happen, make sure your hands, and your partner’s hands as well, are clean as well as both of your sexual body parts.
      Make losing your virginity a blessed event. Something you will cherish. Don’t just do it for no other reason than doing it. Love yourself first.
      Also, when the time comes, prepare your body so your partner will be enthralled and excited. Practice good hygiene. Trim excess hair. Know how you like to experience orgasms. Learn, and understand how your body reacts, where your sensitive areas are, and what feels good.
      Most importantly, be ready to tell your partner what you like, and verbally coach him or her when you feel, on how or what they can do to take you to that special place of sexual bliss.
      You will find that when you work together, communicate well, problems can be resolved and pleasures can be maximized.
      An Easter prayer for you, for your lifelong love.
      My husband and I have been together 30 years, married 28+ of those years. I am his first and only.
      We coach each other, we work together, and we also go to each other’s doctor appointments. Especially him accompanying me to the gyn. What I’m telling you works.

      • Allison says:

        But none of this about finding love applies to me when I’m an aromantic. I’m not worried about finding love. I’m just very curious about sex and want to experience it. I’m sorry. I already broke my hymen by myself years ago. My problem is that I don’t want some doctor to be the first person to come into contact with my private parts. What also grosses me out as much as the pap test is a breast exam. I read that they are done without gloves and the thought of some doctor touching my breasts with their bare hands, when nobody else has ever touched them, actually makes me physically ill.

    • Alex says:

      Just block her. Tell her you’ve heard weed is good for cancer AND calming the fuck down (she’s seriously harassing someone on Facebook about this?). If you want to be a bit more vicious about it, tell her to hurry up & die!

      This woman’s playing “you can never know” games & it’s weighing on your resolve to not get a high-risk, low-utility, invasive (by general language terms- medical people tend to think that means surgery) test.

      I’m not trying to be arrogant or yell at you, but I thought I had posted a thing to you on something similar. If not or you can’t find it, I have no problem telling you the same things again (which you might find helpful, at the very least, as arguments).

    • Evie says:

      I’m assuming that you can’t block this woman for some reason. In that case, tell her that she convinced you to get a pap, you had one, and the doctor told you you were fine. Thank her for caring about your health and convincing you to get a pap. This is the only thing that will shut her up.

    • Evie says:

      Also, I’m really curious how this woman could know that you haven’t had a pap. Is this something you share on your Facebook page? If so, and if you don’t want to be harassed about it, you should stop sharing this information with everyone. If anyone specifically asks you about it, you can always say it’s private information and concerns only you and your doctor. Or you can say that you have regular exams and that your doctor says you’re fine–whatever you prefer. But you don’t have to explain yourself and justify your decision not to have a pelvic exam before you have sex to anyone.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      How do you know she really has cancer? Many women undergo treatment for ‘abnormal’ cells and actually believe (because doctors lie to us) they have cancer and have been ‘saved’ by the almighty pap.
      Second, pap tests are supposed to ‘prevent’ cancer by finding cells which could potentially become cancerous. If paps are so great and this woman has been having them regularly, how come she still got cancer anyway? If she has got genuine cancer, that is.
      Third, there is more than one type of cervical cancer, and the type which develops in very young women like you is a) very rare and b) almost impossible to detect with a pap. So testing at your age is unlikely to do you any good, but you face a high risk of having unnecessary tests and procedures which can seriously damage your mental and physical health.

      If you value your virginity so much, hold on to it until you meet someone you truly care for.
      This idea that a woman needs regular pelvic exams to stay healthy is a filthy lie created by the greedy perverts who get a thrill and make lots of money by conducting these ‘exams’. There are plenty of other countries in the world where women manage to survive into a ripe old age without having doctors shoving their grubby fingers into our vaginas on a regular basis. You don’t need this.

      I’m with Alex on this one – I’d be brutal and tell her exactly where she can shove her ‘advice’.

      • Allison says:

        I wasn’t exactly posting any personal information about not having paps. This was in the comments on a news article about trying to make the birth control pill over the counter. I made a comment about how this would be a great thing, because of how traumatic these exams can be for some women, I gave some links to articles about why a pelvic exam/pap smear is unnecessary for the pill. I then got a handful of women commenting about how their doctors use their birth control as black mail to give into an exam; Also sharing traumatic experiences. This women then is attacking me personally for starting this. Yes, it is my fault for even saying this.

        Also, I don’t value my virginity and the whole waiting for somebody special thing really doesn’t work for me. I’ll probably never want a boyfriend or husband, but I still badly want to experience sex. I just want more of a friend with benefits thing. Hell, I’d be happy to only have sex once or twice. If anything, I feel unwavering hatred towards my virginity. I feel intense sexual frustration to the point I get depressed if I think about it too long. When I’m feeling this horrible, the last thing I want is some doctor jabbing at me down there.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        It’s up to the individual, but I think women, men, doctors, everyone really, needs to hear that some women choose not to have cancer screening and far from reckless behaviour (as we’re led to believe) it’s actually often a well researched and considered position.
        Of course, we’re free to just say NO…
        One of the principles of population screening is that the test must be acceptable, well, this test is UNACCEPTABLE to many women, end of story. We’ve been told it must or should be acceptable, wrong!
        So I’ve shocked quite a few by saying I’ve never had a Pap test, and never will, inevitably I get the comment, “so how do you know you haven’t got cancer at this very moment?”..
        How do they know they haven’t got lung or pancreatic cancer?
        If a screening test does not pass my risk v benefit test (based on the evidence) I’ll pass, these tests always expose us to risk and can reduce our quality of life – they can even lead to an early death. Screening tests should never be taken because others think it’s a great idea, it should always be an informed decision.
        It should be a scandal that informed consent and consent itself are largely missing from women’s cancer screening. It says to be there has been a lot of unethical and possibly, illegal testing going on…you can’t consent when you’re coerced, pressured, misled etc.

      • Alex says:

        See, even though these tests are frequently inaccurate or otherwise dangerous, I think that it’s better for the patient to be able to force a doctor on that level than to not have that degree of control.

        There was a scene in Doctor Strange that illustrated this point pretty well- Steven Strange got into a car crash, his hands were wrecked, and there was this surgeon who wouldn’t do the surgery on them that Steven wanted him to do because of the possible risk to his reputation (it seemed that the deciding factor was his record). Now, it might have worked, but there wasn’t a medical override to coerce him into doing it. The movie had Steven find a new path & he could actually fix his hands at that point (it seems), but a more real story would have been different.

  43. Cat&Mouse says:

    Last year I announced that CA law changed, allowing The Pill to be dispensed by a pharmacist w/o doctor’s prescription. Women have told me that so far this isn’t so. I checked WalMart and CVS pharmacies. Both told me that until “protocols” are developed, neither will be participating. They would not say what was causing the delays.
    Here we go again. Another bait and switch.
    A girlfriend of mine refuses to believe what we discuss. Her daughter had abnormal paps. I tried to educate her in every way possible. Finally I just declared that if her daughter “followed her doctor’s advice” that within a year a hysterectomy would occur.
    Nine months later, following two LEEP’s, the 25 yr old daughter (mother of one boy) underwent a hysterectomy.
    Ignorance is a terminal disease.

  44. Penelope says:

    Hi Everyone:

    Happy Easter to those who celebrate.

    To all the new women and teenagers who are new to posting here – here’s my belated welcome to the site. I would love to answer as many posts as possible, for I want to share with you. However,I haven’t had time to check our site as I’d like. Hopefully you have been reading all of the current and the thousands of previous posts – hopefully including mine – to help you when the veteran’s of our site aren’t able to respond as quickly as well. Somewhere in our posts we have your answers; just keep reading; keep hoping. This is indeed a unique site; the more I view the internet and periodicals, the more I realize that we’re truly saved; we’re warriors for this scourge that is gradually coming to an end; change has been slow, but consistent. The one thing I notice by the media is that male gynecologists aren’t popular. Mostly, there are women gyn’s more in the media – I guess to soften the blow. More and more women have become gyn’s, but they have to stop trying to impress the old boys network and start making change towards respecting women, telling them the truth, stop putting profits before the patients well-being and psychological damage, and change things – starting with required informed consent and providing (not just offering) self testing kits.Remember, it’s your body. STOP believing this nonsense about it being required to get pelvics and paps. Check the World Health Organization’s information. Cervical cancer is extremely rare in developed countries – especially the U.S., U.K, and Australia.

    Cat&Mouse: That was excellent research on Hysterectomies. (for a previous post – I wouldn’t have instructed that young woman to have her friends break her hymen though – sets her up for rape. Having a professional do it defeats her purpose of staying away from perverted doctors…)

    The hysterectomy was primarily an operation started with a cut much like a c-section cut. NOT through the vagina….However, the perverted males figured women would be vain and not want a scar, so they hype getting it through the vagina. And they went for it. And you’ve so eloquently explained that there’s so much more to just not having an abdominal scar. I hope women are suing the pants off these male gyns. I also believe this is why we have all these non-consentual pelvics on anesthetized women (If I start on IVF, my post will be too long). Dogs, they are.

    You made me curious. I looked up Cervical Brachytherapy. In a word – disgusting. The perverted male gyn’s at the top of ACOG think of so many things and devices and reasons and ways to have women in stirrups, playing with their vaginas, that I stopped counting. (their way of playing God since they can’t be cardiologists and heart surgeons…they are real doctors….), Google has pictures by the way of women who were under anesthesia and had no idea they were being filmed in stirrups with objects hanging out- with a male in between their legs. , recently a new procedure for males for prostate cancer, I believe, was abandoned because – wait for it – the MALE SUBJECTS WERE UNCOMFORTABLE. Sooooo, women MUST have pelvics and bimanuals and transvaginals and every unproven thing that these bastards come up with – and men – oh – they are just advised to talk to their doctor about what’s right for them. Very very angering.WHEN will women WAKE UP. The ladies on this site have expressed painfully about being harrassed for a pelvic; The internet sites STILL promote pelvics as if – like Linda or one of veterans said – we are diseased women who are ticking time bombs and getting a pelvic saves lives. Alot are ignoring that ACOG actually said to scale it back to 3-5 years, and such. I think not too many women have heard of WHO. No, for men – it’s just “talk to your doctor about what’s right for you……..” Terrible.

    Let us then, who have found this site and know the truth be blessed; praying for all women to come to the light.

  45. adawells says:

    “To address this public health challenge we need to look at new ways for people to test and self-testing is an important and welcome additional option.”

    https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2015/apr/27/hiv-self-testing-kit-on-sale-uk-biosure

    I thought I would share this article from 2 years ago about HIV self-testing and how it has been welcomed, compared to women being able to self test for HPV.
    HPV self-tests still not recognised as an option in the UK, not promoted, and companies discredited for claiming it is an alternative to smear tests. They claim “research” that offering self-testing increased uptake very little, and that women might be too afraid to seek medical help in the event of a positive result, and that women wouldn’t feel confident in the result compared to the “assurance” of having a nurse/doctor take the smear. Funny how one STI self-test is welcomed with open arms, and the other (for women) is suppressed, and every excuse found to prevent it being used.

    • katrehman says:

      Good one ada. I’m sure the reason uptake is so low is because women don’t WANT a health worker delving up their vagina!

    • Alex says:

      What do they mean “protocols”? The buyer gives money to the worker & the worker gives the desired product. I’m betting if they had a gun in their back they’d do as directed quite quickly. I never understood the ABSOLUTE unwillingness to force something like that- it’s like there’s some kind of functionally religious belief that “their” property should be safe & they should have full discretion over it. FUCK THAT!

      Just to make a point: If someone owns a machete, they don’t just swing it who & what they please- same for coercive probing through resource deprivation. I don’t think it’s important how long they went to med school, obviously it didn’t work well enough (since they are acting this way) & the fact that they are drawing a paycheck that could be used for something else is appalling.

    • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

      Oh, yes, the old double standard is alive and well in women’s cancer screening. They’re always quick to tell us why we shouldn’t have/use a better or another option, always quick to tell us what’s best for us, tell us how we feel or should feel, all the assumptions. Incredible they can’t see how grossly inappropriate and insulting that is, very 1958

  46. adawells says:

    If you are in the UK researchers are interested in interviewing non-screeners.

    • Kate (UK) says:

      Well, I’ve sent a few salty tweets to that researcher, and the only reason I’d want to talk to her is to give her a piece of my mind! Apparently, she and her buddies have done some ‘research’ into whether women who don’t attend for smears are making an informed decision – oh, the irony! – and they’re now looking for ways to ‘support’ women who actually want to go but are putting it off, for some reason. Informed dissenters need not apply. Typical. It’s all about getting those screening rates up.

      • Elizabeth says:

        Oh, yes, the only informed decision is to screen mindset, they couldn’t care less about the fact women can’t make an informed decision TO screen with the misinformation and biased information used to push screening. No concern about thar or over/inappropriate screening and over-treatment.
        This sort of research is usually an attempt to flush out the “hard to reach” group, then challenge the reasons why they don’t screen….get them into the herd.

    • katrehman says:

      Hi Ada and ladies. Today I did a phone interview with ms. Chorley giving my views on screening (and you all known what they are)! She made a point of saying she didn’t work for the NHS and they weren’t looking for ways of press ganging women into screening but how they could improve info sent to women and understand why we didn’t go and I really let her have it. She said about improving info to help us make an informed choice and I said we have no choice we’re basically ordered to go and we’re not told about other killers of women like heart disease killing more than cc! The research is being g done with CRUK and I pointed out even. They say the risk is 0.65%! I was asked about my own experience of screening and I told her! Asked if I would ever screen again I said I’d order a kit on line and self test if my risk profile changed and pointed out self testing is offered elsewhere! She’s sending a copy of the final report which obviously won’t b for a while yet!

      • Kate (UK) says:

        Well done, kat!

      • linda says:

        Thats great Kat. Everything helps in the battle against those screening zealots. Hopefully your comments will make a difference. X

      • adawells says:

        Good for you Kat. I would love to see the outcome of their report, but something tells me it will be the same as all the other reports on why women don’t do as they’re told. If they don’t get the results they want, they”ll keep doing the research over and over again.

      • Penelope says:

        Hi Katrehman:

        Just want to say that I’m proud of you too. I hope it feels so very good that your voice was heard by the people perpetrating this sham. You did a very courageous thing. If there is a way to maintain contact with her through that email, then keep on “letting her have it” (but, whoa, horsey, or she’ll think you’re just ranting!). That is, keep educating her (although she may think she doesn’t need it). Tell her everything – again. Tell her more (or see if she can refer you to who else to contact); tell her/them more about the scientific and medical evidence – (from WHO); personal accounts – that alot of people who experience it feel sexually assaulted (because it is legal sexual assault…..). The misconduct by physicians. The male ob/gyns who are by nature sexually interacting with women with these “exams.” and women know it; which is a huge reason they don’t come back. That women are being educated and will not take nonsensical, condescending information and coercion when they know the truth about the rarity of cervical cancer. That’s good that you reminded her of self-testing (I’m sure she knows….asking for endorsement through that report is another thing….).

        That Amanda Chorley isn’t a robot. Somewhere what you said resonated inside her. Even if she claims to be a tool for the cause, she may take your passion and information to heart and decide against screening – for herself.

        Be Blessed.

      • katrehman says:

        Thank you Penelope and yes I can still email if I have questions or more to add. I didn’t expect to but I did choke up when I talked about my last smear which really was the worst. She said she hoped I’d b ok and not b too sad reliving it….I’ll keep sending the odd email

  47. GoingKamping says:

    Hi, I’m 41, never had an abnormal pap and been with my husband nearly 20 years. I would like to opt out of any further pap testing and have been looking at self testing for hpv. Does anyone know of a reputable testing company in Canada? Thanks 😊

    • moo says:

      The Eve kit has been recently approved for sale in Canada. https://evekit.com/
      It is an HPV positive or negative test. I believe the results are not forwarded to your doctor or a government registry but I would check with them if you want total privacy of your results. I have never tried this kit myself and only just found out about it. I have heard about other hpv testing kits available in other countries but Canadians often had problems with shipping to there. Since the eve kit is approved by health canada there should be no problem to get it anywhere in Canada.

      • GoingKamping says:

        Great, thank you! I checked their website and it says they will only notify your doctor if you ask them too – I don’t have a doctor anyway, so not too worried. I am right in thinking that if it comes back hpv- then I’ve no need for further testing of any kind?

      • Elizabeth says:

        Hi GoingKamping
        If you’re HPV- (like 95% of women aged 30 to 60) and no longer sexually active or you’re confidently monogamous, you might choose to stop all further testing.
        Or, you can self-test up to 5 times, the Dutch test for hpv at 30,35,40,50 and 60, hpv- women might choose to continue to test to guard against a new hpv infection or because they want the reassurance of the hpv- result.
        Some hpv- women choose to test again If their risk profile changes, for example, if they take a new partner.
        The programs assume our partners might be unfaithful so safer to keep testing us, but I think that’s our call, they should give us all relevant information and leave us to make informed decisions.

      • moo says:

        If someone does try the eve kit, would they please give us their honest opinion of the whole process, how much it cost, how they got the results etc.?

        I heard that some sex shops are selling used sex toys that some people got hpv from or people getting hpv from hotel room spa baths not cleaned properly. So 100% it might not be your partner has to cheat to get a new strain of HPV. But usually people take a few months to two years to have their immune system to overcme an HPV infection.

        I think using an hpv test at 5 or 10 years intervals as Elizabeth suggested would be an excellent idea for an nonsymptomatic woman. Of course if a woman has irregular bleeding, infection or painful sex she should probably want to see a healthcare professional about it.

      • GoingKamping says:

        Ummm Moo, you can’t get HPV from spa baths or toilet seats. You can only get it from sex.

        I plan to get the eve kit so will let you know.

    • katrehman says:

      Thanks Ada. I also made the point that scare campaigns and rubbishing women for being embarrassed doesn’t seem to be working so maybe they should listen to us and maybe introduce self testing sooner rather than later. Also that 1 in 4 doesn’t go but probably a lot that do do so unwillingly

      • adawells says:

        What makes me fume is how much money is spent on these schemes. Ms Chorley only wants to know how to produce more convincing propaganda. The reason for her research is to find a more convincing way to get women to screen, when she should be realising that it’s the test that needs changing. It is unacceptable, painful, innacurate, obsolete & downright dangerous. But they can’t see that can they. Take this load of nonsense below which is currently scooping up shed loads of cash. Just supposing this guy invents this test in 5 years from now, what is it supposed to achieve? A woman would know she cannot get cervical cancer over the next 5 years because there’s already an HPV test which can tell her this. A woman might know her risk from breast cancer from having the BRCA test, and if her result gave her a 25% risk, what action should she take? Mastectomy or not, and which breast would it be? Endometrial cancer has evident symptoms from the start, and the treatment would be the same whether you had a high risk or not. Only ovarian cancer is the one which is difficult to detect until too late, and research focusing on this cancer is ongoing. I see no purpose to inventing this test at all, except to load the pap smear with the same false claims it’s always had. It’s a disgrace what health money is spent on. We’ll, that’s me ranted out! 🌋

        http://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/london-doctors-on-brink-of-creating-first-early-warning-system-for-four-womens-cancers-a3536411.html

    • katrehman says:

      And Penelope good idea if she can refer me to more studies and info. I’m in bed with the virus from he’ll atm and I’m doctor avoiding. Don’t think a smear will help me lol! I’ll email when I’m better and in crusading mode again x

      • katrehman says:

        Ada I just re read the standard article and it’s UCL doing the research. Ms Chorley is from there too. Am o paranoid in thinking these 2 studies are connected?? How can we get the silly women to have a smear for allthe female cancers?

  48. Elizabeth says:

    By the way, I mention the Dutch because they follow the evidence, their program, in my opinion, is the best in the world for those women who choose to screen.

    • GoingKamping says:

      Thanks Elizabeth. I’m confidently monogamous. It’s pretty sad that they assume every man cheats.

      • Elizabeth says:

        I agree, but they’ve always been careful to keep real information from women, especially the significance of your hpv status.
        When hpv self tests became available in the UK, the doctors promoting the test for “peace of mind” were careful to state that women, regardless of he result, still needed their regular Pap test, never pointing out hpv- women can’t benefit from Pap tests or that many could stop all further hpv and Pap testing. Women were never given the information they needed to make an informed decision.
        So we could have easily identified the small number of women at risk and left other women alone or offered the, hpv self testing every 5 or 10 years, this would have seen excess biopsy, colposcopy and over-treatment rates plummet too…
        No, they chose to push women into the screening program knowing most couldn’t benefit and that many of these women would end up having an unnecessary biopsy etc.
        It says to me they have little respect for women and the female body, and that legal and ethical standards mean very little to these programs, it should be a scandal.

    • katrehman says:

      Exactly Ada. All we have to do is continue having the horrible smear test. …..yippee!

  49. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4454562/Acrobat-cancer-rare-5-smear-tests-missed-it.html

    This is the problem with feeding women misinformation/propaganda/biased and incomplete information, you make bad decisions. Young women should be told that smear tests don’t help before age 30 and now we can scale that down even more, to women aged 30 to 60 who are also, HPV+
    So often women rely on that normal smear test, it’s held up as THE perfect and essential test.
    In fact, adenocarcinoma is the type of cancer that usually affects young women and it’s usually missed by smear tests, these women get a false negative, it can cost lives or their reproductive future.
    This symptomatic woman needed a proper investigation, not smear tests, a screening test for women with NO symptoms.
    So the misinformation continues,” so rare the cancer was missed by 5 smear tests”, not true, this type of cancer is usually missed by smear tests and it’s the one that affects young women. (but it’s still rare)
    It’s protecting the program and vested interests, not women.
    If she’d been Dutch or Finnish, she’d have known the symptoms needed proper investigation and her GP would not be obsessed with smear tests.
    It’s the lies that cost lives and quality of life, you can’t make the right decision when the information fed to you amounts to a one-sided and dishonest promotion of pap testing.

  50. Alex says:

    I don’t get why people are so “vigilant” when he it comes to getting whatever forms of screening. You’re going to die at some point & it might very well be in surgery, so why get so twisted-up about it?

    I can honestly say that I’d assume that people would be more skeptical about medicine than previous generations were & it IS a multi-billion dollar industry. There’s nothing to say that the dispensed information isn’t tailored to suit financial or psychological motives & it can always be presented in an off-model way individually for the same reasons.

  51. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    This sort of comment makes my blood run cold, is she even HPV+?
    I find it so sad that some women don’t value their reproductive organs, “I don’t need it anymore”…so if a woman chooses not to have children, should it come out at 35? Yes…with that sort of reasoning, you don’t need it anymore, it’s just a potential site for cancer, so what else will we take out?
    Lots of possible sites for cancer…
    A total hysterectomy for minor/moderate changes!
    The uterus and ovaries play a role right through our lives, they don’t suddenly become surplus to requirements when we hit menopause or choose not to have children.
    Women can have all sorts of issues after a hysterectomy, physical and psych issues – urinary incontinence, sexual dysfunction,etc. so it should at least be medically necessary.

    “It is alright for Doctors to remind us about this important test but not to nag us. I don’t know how the UK system works but in Australia we have a National Pap Smear Register which reminds you when you are over or due for Pap Smear. Just one letter is ok. The test itself is important as long as you have been sexually active at some point. I have been having these tests since 2005 though l last had sexual contact about 2 years ago. My results have always been negative until two weeks ago l was called by the GP after my results indicated some cell changes. Luck enough it’s minor/ moderate and l have decided to have a total abdominal hysterectomy before they become active cancer cells. Aren’t l lucky?
    As for the nagging GPs, l would either switch over to another one or report them”

  52. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    “Hysterectomy is the second most common major surgical procedure performed in women worldwide and almost one in three women in the USA have undergone a hysterectomy by the age of 60 years. The vast majority of hysterectomies are performed on benign indications to improve quality of life, and the surgical procedure is generally associated with few complications. In recent years, an increasing number of studies have shown long-term adverse effects of hysterectomy on the pelvic floor and some studies have demonstrated unwanted effects on other health aspects. Long-term effects of hysterectomy on the pelvic floor that should be considered in surgical decision-making are: pelvic organ prolapse, urinary incontinence, bowel dysfunction, sexual function and pelvic organ fistula formation. These outcomes are particularly relevant as life expectancy has increased and sequela may occur a long time after the surgical procedure and severely impair quality of life”
    “Long Term Effects of Hysterectomy”
    By Catharina Forsgren & Daniel Altman
    Aging Health Journal. 2013;9(2):179-187.

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      This is just amazing. The sheer lunacy surrounding this testing goes on and on. Depending on her level of attractiveness, her marital/sexual status, income, and last being which type of healthcare insurance she has (HMO, PPO, government single-payer system) she can be harassed yearly, or have her preferred birth control held hostage unless she capitulates to the whims of her doctor. Essentially spreading her legs on demand.
      Where a woman lives determines, it seems, whether she’s bullshitted into submitting or provided real informed consent so she can make she feels is her best decision.
      Never would I have considered a 53% accuracy test would have so much power over women.
      Locally we’ve done our best to educate friends & family as to the truth as we’ve learned it.
      My gf has a twenty-something-yr-old daughter; now a single mother. Good looking, employed as an accounting manager of a local construction company. She has Kaiser HMO. The daughter (and mother) decided to ignore me and instead “follow her doctor’s advice…”
      I predicted the daughter would end up with a hysterectomy within a year.
      Less than a year later…
      She had 2 LEEP’s…followed by a hysterectomy due to “continuing problems” of which she refused to elaborate.
      Hysterectomies are the easiest way, a two-fer for doctors to cover up their mistakes while getting rid of the evidence. After the fact there is no way to prove the first procedure was unwarranted let alone the cascading issues which terminally lead to radical surgery (hysterectomy).
      There can only be one conclusion. The doctor’s advice was correct the entire time and the sterilizing hysterectomy was necessary. The end of this one-way paved road to reproductive hell concludes with a 25+pound weight gain, loss of sexual pleasure [anterior cervical fornix removed (loss of that source of orgasm) plus possible barrier of accepting larger than average penis because of vaginal shortening. Let alone no more pregnancies…
      Bet those facts weren’t included in the limited consent she was provided and signed off.

  53. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    “I think using an hpv test at 5 or 10 years intervals as Elizabeth suggested would be an excellent idea for an nonsymptomatic woman. Of course if a woman has irregular bleeding, infection or painful sex she should probably want to see a healthcare professional about it”

    Hi Moo,
    Yes, IF a woman wants to screen, I think the Dutch program offers the best protection – it follows the evidence and focuses on the fairly small number of women at risk, and it attempts to minimise the damage to not-at-risk women. (and it excludes young women under 30, protecting them from unnecessary biopsies and over-treatment/damage to the cervix)

    I don’t know how readily/often they tell HPV- women to forget about further testing if they’re no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous. I spoke to a Dutch widow in her late 50s about a year ago (online) and certainly her doctor was very frank – HPV- and no partner then no need for further testing, but if she takes a new partner. might need one more HPV self test.
    I doubt you’d get that sort of medical advice anywhere else, certainly here women won’t get that option, they’ll be pressured to have the invasive HPV test every 5 years from age 25 until age 72 or so….so non-evidence-based screening and serious over-screening again. (great for vested interests who feed off the healthy cervix)

    Also, her doctor offered her HPV self testing as soon as it became available, the doctor was concerned about the discomfort and damage a speculum exam can cause in older women.
    I can’t recall now, but think she’d only had 3 Pap tests as she was always considered low risk, the HPV test confirmed she was not at risk. I asked her if her doctor would have accepted a NO to testing, she felt that wouldn’t be a problem, but her doctor might have advised her of the risk, but interesting, she was told many years ago that the risk of cc was low, and very low for her.

    I think there would be less hysteria about cervical cancer in the Netherlands too because testing hasn’t been made a huge focus in women’s healthcare. I might be wrong, but that’s my feeling.
    It might be easier to discuss the subject rationally, whereas here and elsewhere irrational and emotional responses are fairly common, thanks to propaganda and the damage caused by non-evidence-based programs that leave high numbers of women thinking they’re survivors, that they’d would dead without that Pap test.
    We know almost all were simply over-treated.
    I’d love to speak to more Dutch women, not many on the forums, I suspect that’s probably because they don’t worry about cc like so many women here who’ve been scared to death after a false positive or been through a biopsy etc. 77% of women here (who follow our program) WILL have a colposcopy and biopsy at some point, that’s HUGE numbers. I know that % is much lower in the Netherlands and Finland. (and in most other countries) We have that shocking and hidden figure thanks to very early screening and serious over-screening, damage that was easily avoidable, that’s if we actually cared about women.

    Moo, exactly, symptomatic women need a proper investigation, not a screening test. I’m shocked at the number of GPs who’ll do a Pap test when a woman presents with bleeding after sex or pelvic pain. I suspect it’s just an opportunity to reach a quota and collect the incentive payment.

  54. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    “understand why we didn’t go”
    This statement tells me a lot, we want to understand why you don’t go…not, we understand women have a choice, wondering why women screen or don’t screen.
    It says to me the mindset is that women should screen, so why do some women “avoid” testing?
    That word annoys me too, how often do we read about women who “avoid” screening, how can you “avoid” an elective test?
    Also, why the interest with informed consent in non-screeners, is she confident that screened women have made an informed decision? Hardly….anyone who knows the evidence, knows that women are fed a screening “story” and then coercion and pressure takes over, “when did you have your last Pap test”? “You’re DUE or OVERDUE….etc”
    It all amounts to the same thing, women are expected to follow orders, do as they’re told, they can be given misinformation, they can be pressured or even coerced…the ONLY thing that matters is getting as many women into screening as possible, protect the program at all cost.
    These people couldn’t care less about women, or they’re misguided and brainwashed themselves,
    “help me understand, why do some ignore the order to screen?”…

    Good for you, Kat, these people expect an apology, guilt, excuses “I’m too busy” etc.
    (“I’m too busy” – I’m convinced women feel unable to say they don’t want to screen so look for a less controversial excuse, I think women who really want to screen will make the time, we find time for other things, don’t we?) It should never be unacceptable for a woman to say, “I don’t want this screening test”…end of story. It’s called treating women like independent and competent adults, not public property or second class citizens.
    It’s always been unacceptable for women to speak truthfully about this subject, the climate was so oppressive/aggressive and emotional you could barely breath – women were dismissed, ridiculed, insulted etc.
    About time they heard that some women choose not to screen and guess what, we don’t have to apologise or give you an excuse, the LAW and proper ethical standards say all cancer screening is elective, for men AND for women. Perhaps, they should start with questioning why they view screening as mandatory for women, perhaps, they’re doing their “research” with a brainwashed or biased mindset.
    There’s always money and time for this sort of research, none for looking at the number of women who’ve had unnecessary cone biopsies etc. how many went on to have psych, health or obstetric issues? How many had a high risk pregnancy? Premature baby? How many of these babies were left with a permanent disability or died? No, no money for that research.
    I’d love to know the answers to those Q’s…not why some women choose not to have an elective screening.

  55. katrehman says:

    Thanks Elizabeth. ..I did make the point if a woman wants a smear test she’ll book it all by herself……it’ll be interesting to see the final report

    • adawells says:

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5324630/?report=classic

      Hi Kat, I’ve come across Ms Chorley’s previous research, if you want to have a read.
      At least they have unearthed some new information such as the very negative experiences women have had from it not being acknowledged, and the fact that women find the normalisation of the procedure repugnant. So what’s changed? Nothing. No sign of self-testing in sight and they’re still rolling out that advert: haircut, cinema tickets…to make us feel it’s a real treat for our vaginas.

      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        Exactly…interesting that women who have a problem with Pap tests are often ridiculed or quizzed:
        a) have you been sexually assaulted?
        b) Have you had kids? (so what’s the problem? You wait until you have kids, you’d better get used to these exams)
        c) The doctor sees vaginas all day long, it’s nothing to him/her (what does that have to do with your feelings, concerns and wishes?)
        d) You haven’t got anything the doctor hasn’t seen before (you’re being silly, difficult etc.)
        You all know the lines, tactics and warped thinking…

        This approach separates women into 2 groups, those who shouldn’t care because they’ve been seen before, they’re used to them or they’re mature and sensible, or those who have an issue because of past abuse, immaturity, prudishness etc.
        So normal feelings about bodily privacy, dignity and discomfort are dismissed or presented as somehow weird and irresponsible, you don’t want to get cancer, do you?

        I think this was a deliberate strategy at the very beginning, they knew women would have to be forced into testing by various means, that most women would find the test unacceptable. That fact should have ruled the test out for population screening purposes, it’s one of the criteria, Is the test acceptable to most women?
        They think because high numbers screen, the answer is Yes, I disagree, look at the dirty and illegal tactics that have been adopted to get women to screen.
        The approach says it all, if it was simply offered with full disclosure, I doubt many women would bother. In fact, as I understand it, that’s why targets and financial incentives were introduced and why not was linked to the Pill and pre-natal care, to force more women into testing. the call and recall system (UK style) was also, something that gave them more control over women. Harassment is also fairly common with this testing, by letter, phone calls, pressure at the medical clinic or even by home visit.

        It was readily understood that men found the DRE unacceptable and an alternative would have to be found asap, but I lost count of the number of doctors and others who stated, “women have to have these exams for most of their lives, it’s just part of being a woman, they’re used to them”….
        They wanted to make pap testing a habit, like brushing your teeth, how insulting that a vaginal exam and brushing your teeth could possibly be compared…it’s absurd.

        I think it explains the attitudes we face, it explains the resistance to self-testing, the lack of respect for female privacy and dignity. I heard one male doctor say that he didn’t even consider a Pap test to be invasive – I wonder how he’d feel about something being inserted into his penis, especially if he had no real choice, it was “required” for his skin medication or he was pressured or misled…

      • Penelope says:

        Thanks for the original link and this link, Adawells – again sorry for the oversight!

        I just want to seeeeeeee – hmmmmm – the studies for testing, for men’s health issues – from the urology field. I just want to seeeeee – the empirical data and patient testimonies for the prostate exam and testicular exams and find out what men think, just like this one. Oh my – there is no million-dollar campaign to get men to get naked below the waist for urologists for annual exams (come back when you’re over 40 they said – if you want to…..) There’s no incentive payments for that. There’s no patient testimonies of shame because their urologists pressured them to get tested. Oh my – there are no studies! How do you like that, Adawells. I wonder what Amanda Chorley thinks of that.

        Male doctors don’t pressure other men to look at their penises and take secretion tests. The last test that was in development was scrapped about a year ago, because the men were uncomfortable. No scrapping of the pelvic. Need more empirical data for that – never mind the overwhelming evidence now. Remember the U.K. students who were developing that virtual prostate exam for training – male medical students were involved in the development, but then, golly, they got bored. They developed the robotic vagina instead. What liars to say that there is no sexual overtones with gynecology. It’s clear that the heterosexual male ob/gyns got into the field to have access to naked women. Urologists don’t even try to attract male patients; but they have expanded the field to include – wait for it – urogynecology. They do about the same as gyns. There is a campaign out there. It’s appealing to women with incontinence and fistulas. However, from what I’ve read, they molest women in the same way as gyns, and then send them on their merry way with pessaries and Kegel exercise pamphlets. So far, there’s no major outcry because of the strength in the shame and stigma. Surgical interventions so far have been shams with disastrous results, and thankfully women are fighting back; suing urogynecologists for several years now. Back to the drawing board for them.

        The women ob/gyn doctors are still johnny come lately – but too many so far doing what the male colleagues are doing. At least they are there. At any time, they can change the game and opt for the informed consent and self-testing kits. How to change the ACOG and the medical organizations in the U.K. and Australia, though, to inform the insurance companies on what to bill on – instead of incentive payments for pelvics and pap smears, should be payments for self-testing kits and ramp up the CT Scans, abdominal ultrasounds; develop other non penetrative exams that provide the ob/gyns their compensation.

        Let’s see what becomes of these studies and the information they have carefully taken down – if they are just taking information down to find ways to improve their tactics, or will they finally change things for the good of women and end these barbaric tests. Well, as long as they perpetrate the fraud, we’ll be here to counteract it. And what we’re doing is working.

        Be blessed!

      • katrehman says:

        Thanks Ada I’ll have a read. Then I might e mail her again!

      • adawells says:

        Kat, I’m glad you got to talk to them and can get in touch again. I feel like we now have a foothold in their camp! I would also have liked to participate but don’t qualify due to my hysterectomy.
        I’ve heard that the new stats for cervical screening will be coming out this summer, and I’d be very interested to see what they are after the leaflets/letters have been changed to emphasise that it is a choice. They are now only issuing the stats every 2 years and the last ones for 2015 are about 73%. In my own city and many others the uptake rates are below 70%. My guess is that the rates have fallen quite a bit, hence the flurry of “research” in raising the rates.

    • Kate (UK) says:
      • Elizabeth (Aust) says:

        “Most non-participants are not making an active decision not to attend”…

        Most participants are not making an active decision TO screen, but there’s no concern about that, is there?
        It the same approach, “oh, why don’t all women do as they’re told like good little girls, Pap tests are fabulous”…
        The lack of respect for consent and informed consent in women’s cancer screening is so intractable, they point blank refuse to see Pap tests and mammograms as elective, they continue to Q and study women who choose not to screen.
        We don’t do that with bowel screening, it’s all very light weight in comparison but the drama over Pap tests, it makes no sense at all.

        It will be hard to change that sort of warped thinking, but that’s why these people need to hear that some women don’t want to screen, end of story.
        No one asks women who screen exactly why they screen, what do they understand the benefits and risks might be? These women are just ticked off…unless of course, they’re being used in propaganda.
        Also, I think some women are afraid to say they don’t want Pap tests, it’s always been the trigger for judgement and verbal attack, often quite aggressive – I think the “I’m too busy” is often an active decision not to screen, it’s just that the woman doesn’t feel safe enough to say that…
        The wording of the Q is so biased in favour of screening too…
        Such a waste of money too, how about a research program into women left with cervical damage after over-treatment?

      • adawells says:

        I think this is an earlier piece of nonsense from them and not the new project Kat was involved in. If you download the pdf this paper was submitted on 28th February, so was before their latest “research”. So much propaganda coming out of this group it’s hard to keep pace with the flow of this diarrhoeal propaganda.

      • katrehman says:

        You’re right Ada I did my interview on May 10th

      • adawells says:

        There’s so much of this research out there all saying the same thing. I don’t know how many times this stuff has been done before, yet they repeat it over and over. One paper looks the same as another. I hope your responses will give them some new information, but it won’t be the answers they are looking for, so they’ll probably do the same research again and again.
        I agree with Elizabeth the vast majority of women give throwaway responses because they have not been​ given enough honest information about the test to make an informed decision. They don’t want to be cornered in a discussion where they leave themselves open for being put on the spot. Don’t we all say these things when offered something we don’t want, but don’t want to give the other person a chance to argue? And to see that CRUK are funding all this! Don’t they know there are common cancers out there waiting for a cure?

      • Kate (UK) says:

        Ah yes, it in indeed an earlier piece of propaganda – sorry about that! Ms. Chorley just tweeted the link.
        That study’s very odd as well as being insulting – 28% of non-participants claim to be ‘unaware’ of cervical screening. With the call/recall system, pressure from GP’s etc. they don’t know about this test? Something smells very fishy to me.
        Anyway, at least Ms. Chorley’s original post triggered a debate between some pro screeners and dissenters – the pap happy gang haven’t had it all their own way.

      • adawells says:

        Kate, I wonder sometimes if some people sign up for these things to get an expenses paid trip to London/shopping voucher and then claim they’ve never heard of cervical screening!
        There seems to be one paper after another on this, all repeating the same thing as before. A huge study costing over £600,000 called STRATEGIC completed a couple of years ago and confirmed that absolutely nothing would persuade those under 30 to take up the test. They tried a number of options and none showed any significant impact, and here they are doing it all again. I’ve read that screening lends itself very well to privatised healthcare, and I’m wondering if this research is being done to assess whether it would be profitable for private companies to take this on for the long term?

  56. Evie says:

    I was re-watching Veronica Mars recently, and in one of the episodes (from 2006) there was a lawyer who said something along the following lines:

    “Last night was the convention of the south coast ob/gyn society — the most sued medical specialty.” (the lawyer was passing his cards at the convention, looking for business)

    That made me laugh 🙂 I thought I’d share it here.

    • diane says:

      thanks for your share. hehe tat’s funny. If i had thought about it would of sued that awful abusive abortionist. Also the hospital for neglect.
      A few others maybe too, for denying me help.
      diane

    • Penelope says:

      Thanks, Evie:

      As they say, Evie, the truth lies within a joke. Art imitates life. Likely based on actual news stories like Law and Order was.

      Years ago, they featured an episode about a male gynecologist who raped the resident counselor on the show through a pelvic exam. She was drugged and he raped her. Although she has the backing of the police and DA’s office, it was hard to prove (this was the mid-1990s.) He was arrested; it went to trial. The prosecuting lawyer, though, played a powerful bluff. They put on the news that they were losing their case, knowing he had other victims. He (and – preposterous) and his female lawyer were certain he would walk with probation on a lesser plea. They came to the DAs office more than smug. The prosecutor gave them a short speech about bluffing or being overconfident (don’t 100% remember….), then, the prosecutor’s assistant lawyer slammed what looked like a 2-3 inch thick bound case document of complaints from perhaps 50 other victims (all within the statutes – recent to the trial) to whom he did the same thing – women who saw his pitiful bleak view of the outcome of the trial (done on purpose…) fed to reporters on the courthouse steps – and they got furious. The female defense attorney looked absolutely embarrassed for defending him and immediately took the deal – 20 years ( I think no parole). They knew those complaints would absolutely send him to jail for twice that long if they were added as evidence or even prosecuted. Needless to say that episode is one of my all time favorites.

      Thank you – be blessed.

    • katrehman says:

      Hi Ada. Ooh only 2 yearly when cervical cancer is such a threat to our health lol? I raised the new letter saying its a choice with her and pointed out it was raised in Parliament that it should be removed bcoz the idea is to get more women to screen I also cited the Eve appeared ( you should therefore make the right choice and attend when ” invited” and said that this amounts to deliberately withholding info from women and how is this choice?? Ialso said that lots of women think smears are compulsory so where’s the choice?? But I agree it will be interesting to see the new figures… And the “experts” response

    • katrehman says:

      Ada they must b pretty worried for their programme if lots of under 30s are coming out with such emphatic refusals of the test. Time for another study lol. Heaven forbid they’d introduced a more acceptable test or scrap the unfit for purpose programme. ..

  57. adawells says:

    More “research” suggesting that more is needed to get women to screen. You can download for free.

    “Future research could then inform the design of targeted interventions and provision of
    information enabling informed decision-making regarding cervical screening among older women, allowing them to benefit from the protection that screening confers.”

    In other words, all this research is to force women into screening..

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743517301676

    • moo says:

      They are totally ingoring why younger women tend to screen more – it’s because they put up with it to get their hormonal birth control or other health care. It’s that all we hear that young women cannot find a doctor who will prescribe them birth control pills beyond three months supply unless they get a pap and all? So the older women are deciding they are through will all that and decline. An 85 yr old women does not need birth control counselling, tests for sti and whatever. Getting a leep or a hysterectomy for CIN II or III is going to harm at that age rather than help so who are they trying to fool? It is just about $$$$$ and keeping their jobs.

      • Elizabeth says:

        Moo,
        Doing a Pap test on a pregnant woman or recently delivered woman is about capturing women for the program, meeting targets and incentive payments.
        Testing at this time means the test is even more unreliable, they know that, you couldn’t trust the results…but they test anyway. It means some women go through an excess colposcopy or worry through their pregnancy until they have a biopsy or “treatment” post delivery.
        Also, testing after delivery means a false positive is more likely so these women have that avoidable stress with a new born to care for and sleep deprivation. Some women have birth injuries or soreness, these women should be left to heal, not have a speculum exam forced on them, I’m reminded of Ada’s traumatic experience.
        The focus is always the program and capturing women, even if you risk their health, cause harm and distress…completely avoidable damage.
        Once again, they probably hope a false positive will be good PR for the program, another “saved” woman.

      • adawells says:

        In the UK pap smears are no longer done during pregnancy. In fact the College of Obstetrics&Gynes actually say on their website that if you are called up for a test during pregnancy you should delay it until 3 months after the birth. This has completely changed from earlier years, when they were saying that smear tests were perfectly​ safe during pregnancy, and also at the postnatal assessment 6 weeks after giving birth. Can clearly remember Dr Nazi at my surgery telling me how it was perfectly safe to be done at any time during pregnancy. I’d love to see the research and evidence, which caused this change in procedures, but I bet the widespread damage is being kept firmly out of reach.

      • Hi Ada. This is interesting information. I recall us old timers going to battle on a forum some time ago that was adamantly pro-pap during pregnancy. Do you have a link to the UK site? I looked but was not able to find the bit about delaying paps until 3 months after birth, but I was probably looking on the wrong site.

      • adawells says:

        https://www.rcog.org.uk/en/patients/patient-leaflets/cervical-smears-and-pregnancy

        Here’s the link. I remember them going on about how safe it was to have paps during pregnancy, and I’m sure I’ve read about paps being a part of the 6week post natal assessment too. There must have been some serious adverse events happened for them to have changed this, since pregnancy and childbirth are the times they have women captured and can force the non-attenders.

      • Thanks Ada. This is an improvement over past practices. I too wonder what was going on to get them to change their practices and would love to see the evidence that drove this change, especially given the opportunity to capture non-screeners as you say.

      • adawells says:

        https://www.rcog.org.uk/en/guidelines-research-services/guidelines/sip21/?_t_id=1B2M2Y8AsgTpgAmY7PhCfg%3d%3d&_t_q=Cin&_t_tags=language%3aen%2csiteid%3a39338ee9-cb61-4e10-a686-8f4a5e1b76d7&_t_ip=82.28.105.123&_t_hit.id=EPiServer_Templates_RCOG_Models_Pages_GuidelinesDetailsType/_7923eaef-32ad-455b-91f4-5eb9b8376892_en&_t_hit.pos=2

        This document is also a very revealing read, and was the reason England changed the screening age from 20 to 25 in 2005. Scotland and Wales only changed to 25 last year, so had been screening women from age 20 all that time in spite of this evidence.

  58. katrehman says:

    Today I went to the doctor for my chest infection and for the first time in years no posters about cervical screening. Are the times a changing?

    • adawells says:

      I hope so, but they may be saving them up for cervical cancer awareness week next month…
      My own practice has been in special measures for about a year, and was re-inspected recently and was just moved up a grade to “requiring improvement”. What a shame. I was hoping they’d shut the premises down and replace the Nazi who assaulted me 20 years ago, but she’s still there. I downloaded a copy of the report. In spite of all the short comings, the report praised the practice for its high cervical screening rate, which was mentioned twice in the report. Never mind everything else you can die of, Dr Nazi couldn’t care less. I think she deliberately concentrates on her incentive targets, to divert attention from the very poor service elsewhere.

  59. Elizabeth says:

    2017 and still it’s about strategies to increase uptake, not informed consent.
    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0969141317696518
    Endless money for this type of research….

    • Mint says:

      “The offer of a nurse navigator, a self-sample kits on request, and choice between timed appointments and nurse navigator were ineffective.”

      It’s shocking how much time and money is wasted coming up with the same answers.

      • adawells says:

        https://www.journalslibrary.nihr.ac.uk/programmes/hta/0916401/#/

        Yes I thought I’d read somewhere that this research project cost about £600,000, but we are talking about the super successful and much admired UK Cervical Screening Programme so why not throw a few more £££ into getting our vaccinated under 30’s to attend a test for a disease they are already vaccinated against? And look…our government has found some extra cash and paid £1,153,903.03 for this project which concluded that, actually, nothing increases the uptake very much at all.

      • katrehman says:

        Nurse navigator?? Seriously? ? If a woman wants a smear she’ll navigate her way to the phone or her computer to book it all by herself!

      • adawells says:

        Whatever the nurse navigator’s role was, the research found her to be ineffective. Would love to have been a fly on the wall in some of those consultations!

  60. Elizabeth says:

    Honestly, the reach and nerve of this program, my sister asked me to arrange a mail redirection online for her, they offer an extra and free service whereby they’ll let various companies and groups know you have a new address….and on the list, the cervical screening register!
    I couldn’t believe it, but I suppose anything that helps keep track of the herd.
    Naturally, I ticked “no thanks” to the extra service…

  61. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Interesting title, nurse navigator, is that a nurse who navigates you down the passage, into the consult room and onto the table for a Pap test. I’ve never heard of a nurse navigator…I wonder if they operate on a performance/bonus system, so much per cervix and extra for the hard-to-catch or never previously caught cervix?

  62. Elizabeth says:

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-06-sterilization-techniques-ureteroscopes-contaminated.html?utm_source=nwletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-nwletter
    This is a concern, it always worried me how well they sterilised the metal speculum, I’m sure many women ended up with issues because of contaminated speculum.
    I think most doctors here now use plastic disposable speculums.
    This is another reason I’m cautious with routine checks…
    This is an American study, but I imagine our numbers would be high too

  63. katrehman says:

    Its another cervical awareness thing this week and the eve appeal want us to order a check your chuff badge from them and upload aa pic of u wearing it. I assume this means get a smear. Pass the vomiting bucket..

  64. katrehman says:

    I actually e mailed the Eve appeal after I checked them out.a few years ago they said that women should talk about their vaginas and feel comfortable doing so regularly discussing their vaginas with friends and family?? They should also use the correct name vagina Instead of things like fanjo or ladygarden. So I asked how this equated with check your chuff? If they want to use correct terminology why not a badge with get a cervical screening or have an intimate vaginal exam? I await a reply!

  65. katrehman says:

    How would that work? I think I’d slap anyone who asked me how my vagina was!

  66. Kate (UK) says:

    Well gang, today I am thoroughly ticked off.
    About a month ago I received a call from my surgery to check my details. She claimed she was checking ‘because we care’. I stifled a snort, wasn’t in the mood for an argument. See, Here in the UK every GP gets paid for every patient on their books, and it seems that some dodgy doctors have failed to update their lists when patients die or move away, therefore receiving money for ‘ghost’ patients. So when this dirty little secret crawled out of the woodwork, surgeries were obliged to check their books were accurate. Hence the phone call.
    Oh, she said, one more thing.. they want you to have a smear. I restrained myself from exploding and cave her a very firm, very cold, ‘No’.
    Fine, she says, I’ll write in your file that you’ve declined. So, end of call. Not too painful.

    Then, this week, I get another call to ask me to see the practice nurse for ‘a few things’…
    Brief hesitation. I suspect one of those ‘things’ was a smear, but maybe she saw from my notes that I’d already been pestered. Anyway, she asks me to come in for a blood pressure check. Now a) we have a blood pressure monitor at home, and my readings are usually on the low side. b) they never gave a toss about my blood pressure before, now it’s really important for them to know. Wouldn’t have anything to do with government targets, now, would it? (Yes.) and c) I know a visit to the nurse would give them an opportunity to ‘counsel’ me on the ‘importance’ of smears. Now, I’m armed with plenty of info to shoot down everything they throw at me, but I’m not a great talker and wouldn’t keep my cool.
    So, no, sorry – I’m not interested in helping you reach your targets.
    The thing is, they talk about needing the incentive money to provide a good service, but how much of the money is spent on helping people in need, and how much is spent on achieving the targets in the first place? Hmmm.
    Anyway, I digress.
    Today I receive a letter from the practice asking me to make an appointment for a smear as I have not responded to their two previous invitations. Bloody cheek! Especially since I’ve been ignoring their summons for over 15 years now.
    Get this. ‘As you may or may not be aware, cervical smears are part of a National Screening Programme for early detection of changes in the cervix which could lead to cervical cancer’.
    No shit, really? Even though I’ve been tested before, the subject is raised at every consult, it’s splashed all over the media… nope, never heard of it.
    It goes on; ‘Smear testing has been proven to be a safe and reliable method of detecting these changes and we know that for those women who are regularly having their smears taken there is an increased detection rate of abnormalities which can be treated. The earlier the treatment can be started the more likelihood there is of curing any abnormalities.’

    Talk about misinformation! I feel like writing back to them and giving them a piece of my mind.

    Sorry guys, I just needed a rant. XD

    P.S. I checked my chuff today. It’s still there.

    • katrehman says:

      Yayyyy kate uk and chuff! ! Go give em hell! Luv it

      • Alex says:

        Have a question: Now that there’s a muslim mayor of London, do islamic women get harassed about getting probed at the doctor’s? If so, it “seems discriminatory” & should probably “be addressed.”

        Whether THEIR argument winds up being religious or not, it would be presented as being their choice- then non-islamic women could make the same overall point (that THEY made a choice that resulted in bodily autonomy & self-governance over what goes where).

        At that point, what can they do? Protest & say they’re being bullied? Say something contradictory that would blanket the muslims & their decision? Make a point that amounts to them getting special treatment?

        Doesn’t even matter what the frequency is with muslims, since the point can always be made with that same starting point- “Well, if a muslim woman was to refuse a penetrative action on the doctor’s part, what would happen?” And then they’ll say something about not pushing the issue & probably that it wouldn’t matter what someone’s religion is, they decide what happens to their body (especially if someone asks “Is that because of her religion?” when they talk about not pushing the issue). THAT, done publicly & in a widely noticed situation, breaks the back of that issue (and, just like with a broken back, there’s still the possibility of them flailing around & landing a blow- but the majority of their ability is reduced).

    • adawells says:

      Kate, can you photo your notes where you have declined to test and keep the photo on your phone to remind the staff at your surgery if they are troublesome?

      • Kate (UK) says:

        To be honest, Ada, I’m lucky that I’m in good health and don’t need ongoing care. Haven’t been to the surgery for years. I don’t stand for any nonsense these days – I cut those phone calls very short – not interested, goodbye – and if they start trying to pressure me by phone in the future I shall tell them where to go and slam the phone down.
        Thanks for the advice though, I’ll bear it in mind should I ever feel desperate enough to go to our god-awful surgery.

  67. Allison says:

    What creepy b@stards! I have somethings to rant about myself, which I will later.

  68. katrehman says:

    Hi all! I just had a reply from the Eve appeals Wesley Hutchins… Sounds like a male but still…
    Dear Kat thank you for your email to the eve appeal regarding our recent campaign around cervical screening awareness week.we fully apprentice the concerns you have raised regarding the promotion of our check your chuff badge and the face you feel it contradicts the messages the charity has been promoting to encourage women to use correct terminology when talking g about the female anatomy or gynaecological issues
    The tone of the campaign was meant to be fun (??) Kat’s brackets and comments! Interactive and engaging whilst raising much needed awareness of cervical screening and encouraging women to attend their appointment when ” Invited ” especially since uptake rates have declined in recent years with over a quarter of eligible women not attending their appointment in the passed year. All language used beyond the hashtag is anatomically and medically straight talking
    We really value your feedback and will be assessing the campaign and its efficacy in reaching audiences
    Once again thank you for your feedback and commitment to using g the correct terms around gynae heath

    Well! Opinions??

    • adawells says:

      Why is a campaign to detect cancer supposed to be fun? This is what is so distateful about these charities and their fun campaigns. I don’t remember seeing anything from Macmillan cancer, at least I haven’t seen anything from them, but Eve Appeal and Jo”s are really trying to get the first-timers through the door, only they don’t seem to have realised that women aren’t being invited at 20 anymore but 25. It’s nauseating how they’re presenting it as a cute girly thing to do. Hope the attendance rate sinks into oblivion.

    • Penelope says:

      Check your chuff.

      Hmmmmmmm.

      Check.
      Your.
      Chuff.

      Cheeeeeeeck yourrr chuffff.

      Chuff. Chuff. Chuffffff.

      Nope. Not funny or fun in the least, Kat. They’re really arrogant to think that they could make something like that – fun. And they are arrogant for not caring about the real, emotional, painful reasons why women are declining. Is it me, or did they just step right over what you were trying to tell them. It’s not just about using correct words – in fact they should use general medical terms such as with men’s issue (erectile dysfunction – priapism, vasectomy….etc.) where we know the meaning and it’s not disrespectful. If nothing else, they should just say – female genitals. But – that’s not the point (wish they would get rid of the whole campaign, really). They know the issue is about the exam, period, but think they can trick women into it anyway by being condescending.

      You’re right – the cold, unattached answer was definitely from a male. “Chuff” is a funny sounding word, But the face I make at reading that word isn’t an amused one. More like a surprised grimace. That’s because the meaning is irrefutable. Nothing funny about being half naked in stirrups with strangers touching you and feeling you – male and female (ob/gyn’s and nurses aren’t your best friends after all – though they’d like to think they are after touching you so intimately. They even try to say that the exam is a way to bond with them – Sick!!!). And, there’ s definitely no fun in being lied to – we know most women don’t need checking. Those that are sheeple or think they have problems – and the few that may actually develop it – God forbid – well, they are way past due in offering the self-tests to them. Why not do that instead. Whoever answered you didn’t drink the Kool-aid, it’s being intravenously fed to him. Even more disgraceful if that was a female that responded to you.

      And how they still treat women like children – yet again! Make it sound fun and cute (do they think we have the minds of adolescents or teenagers??? Even they see right through them when they go to touch them!)

      Yes, make it sound cute, as if once they get women in there, they will giggle as they take their pants off and think it’s oh so cool to be in stirrups with strange men at them. Are they going to give souvenirs and lollipops with that badge when it’s over?

      Oh my goodness. Speaking of adolescents and teenagers. A 12-year old girl in the U.S. recently assisted in the natural birth of her baby brother. It charmed the commenters. Not me. The ob/gyn is a male old enough to be her grandfather. He was standing behind her with his arms around her as he helped her catch the baby. The moment must have been – SURREAL. He’s in front of her naked mother – they never get tired of seeing them in that vulnerable position – the same one she got pregnant in. They disrespectfully showed her open leg as far up as they could legally show. We’re not supposed to care because it’s childbirth. They would never disrespect a man’s body and show their intimate procedures. It really disgusts me how women’s bodies are exploited in the media through medical procedures involving their breasts and vaginas. Discussions on procedures for men – whenever they are discussed in the media – about never use the word – penis, and surely, NO pictures. But that’s something else.

      Nevertheless, he’s enchanted her daughter – so much that she doesn’t even see how creepy it is that he’s there staring at her mom – a man who’s not her father – because she’s so distracted by the baby coming out. Now the young lady wants to be a gynecologist – another female coming to the business. No clue where the dad was in all this. Guess this ob/gyn had an out of body experience. Guess he figures that little girl will be his client soon getting pelvic exams, rationalizing to her that her mom got them. Her 12-year old mind doesn’t yet see how – wrong – it was for her mom to be exposed like that in front of that man, being touched by a man – who isn’t her father. I wish her ob/gyn was a woman, but it was a man. How. Absolutely. Disgusting. Yes, it’s impressive that the little girl was brave and had presence of mind to want to be a part of that. Her face was of joy and tears looking at her baby brother. However, I’m not distracted from what really happened in that delivery room because I can’t dismiss the male ob/gyn’s point of view – after all we know and all that we have learned about them.

      And, would anyone have found it cute if instead the mother had a 12- year old or better yet – 16-year old son who wanted to deliver his baby brother? Nooooooooooo.

      What a world we live in, where the lies are twisted with the truth; where the good winds up in a pas de deux with the bad.

      Be Blessed.

      • Kleigh says:

        I really think the whole “well woman exam.” Is just a sick ritual or tradition based off false notions of the female body and profit. I have never herd any good resons given that whould make me want to go and get violated. Oh lol one time I even herd the lame reason young girls “Need” to visit gynecologist is they can learn good hygiene. I must need to see a dermatologist so they can teach me how to wash my hair. Lol

      • Diane Spero says:

        i agree about the ” well women ” exam bs. i can’t count how many times I hae been charged for this with no exam! It’s nothing but a scam to get women into the office,
        I could not have exam, was told repeatedly to come back when i could have exam!
        I was charged for ths fo yrs.
        I would lke to charge them for the hours of trauma they have caused me. Also for the hours of therapy with therapist who didn’t understand, or pushed for exams!

  69. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    “They would never disrespect a man’s body and show their intimate procedures”
    Penelope, that’s an interesting point, we often see images of women in position ready for a pelvic or Pap test or having a mammogram but when the DRE was being used here, I certainly can’t recall the same type of image being used…
    I wonder if research told them women would become de-sensitized to the position if they saw it over and over again and thought it was just something every woman had to do/cope with…
    I wonder if the thinking with men was: we don’t want to put them off…

    I think it also reflects the lack of respect for female bodily privacy and dignity, we see that everywhere, gratuitous female nudity while the men wear shorts or even suits. It all sends a message, it’s time that message was changed, the female body is not something to exploit, it’s private property. Keep off!!

    • Penelope says:

      Thanks, Elizabeth 🙂

      You see it, too. This gratuitous female nudity fuels the disrespect that men, including male ob/gyns, have for women. They presume that because some women want to show their bodies off scantily clad and/or naked (alot of celebrity women lead this charge for attention, acceptance, and due to low self esteem) that EVERY woman secretly and not so secretly wants to do the same thing. Sooooo, I guess they think all they have to do is convince them it’s for their own good and they will get naked for the exams. We know that women doctors, I hate to say, are guilty of this too. But, it’s better to spar with a female about declining than a male ob/gyn. Unfortunately alot of females take on the males behavior to show them that they’re as good as the boys. Unfortunately a good female ob/gyn has to be sought and found. If the practice of childbirth wasn’t wrestled away from midwives centuries ago, and if women were “allowed” to practice medicine over the centuries alongside men, I believe that obstetrics (gynecology may not exist as that Marion J. Sims wouldn’t have been able to get into it…sorry for the pun….) would have become a female oriented profession – no perverted males would be in it. I don’t think pelvics would exist if that was how history evolved for women’s health – if women developed the methods and technology over the centuries. I still dare to dream that women will take over completely and drop the paternalism too many have so disgracefully adopted.

      I think that birth trauma from unwanted intimate exams and interventions in hospitals (which is now being widely reported and complained about) and the imposition of male ob/gyns is also why so many women are choosing home births with female doulas and midwives, Doulas and midwives claim that they respect women’s wishes for no intimate cervical checks. I wish they wouldn’t post videos and pictures of the women half naked with legs open, though. I understand they want to capture the agony of labor, but it defeats the purpose of privacy and respect for the woman’s body. Seeing pictures of the newborn not yet cleaned up is enough.

      It’s true that women have the choice to do what they want as consenting adults. There are those women, whose backgrounds and life experiences dictated to them that they are no better than their boobs and crotches, that they choose to pose nude, semi-nude, legally nude, strategically nude, implied nude ….I think I can go on. They pose nude not just for men’s magazines (that wouldn’t be proper for a middle class woman who’s on the PTA), but also for skin care ads, medical ads (there’s one targeting men for spinal treatment, but has a woman naked from the waist up – back to the camera to sell it……), and news articles on mammograms and pelvics as you said. I see they have declined, though. The message that women don’t like pelvics, especially with males must have had an effect on that. I notice that girls (like they’re in training, or something…..) and women are more likely to be shown in swim suits, and boys and men in shorts and tees – in the same picture or tv ad. What breaks my heart, Elizabeth, are that alot of the medical articles show women who aren’t actresses…they had no clue they were being photographed in front of a mammogram machine. I wonder if they agreed to be compensated, too, after their outrage calmed down at being photographed like that. I guess alot of women allow it for the money as the media – and entertainment industry pays alot. If they didn’t consent and were powerless over the decision to have the pictures posted, then they should sue. Maybe some have as I haven’t seen as many pictures. They wouldn’t dream of doing that to men with prostate exams.

      It’s these women, though, that make it bad for us – for those of us that have too much self respect and self esteem – and too many brain cells to do that. It’s one of the reasons, I think, that women still don’t garner enough respect in the workplace, why they still, par for par, aren’t paid as much as men for the same jobs. We have to overcome the women with low class behavior to get what we deserve in the workplace, in the ob/gyn’s office, and in the delivery room – good grief!

      Well, let’s keep up the fight. It’s good that we have each other to give us strength and courage to keep on fighting this scourge in the ob/gyn’s office.

      Thanks again, Elizabeth – Be blessed!

  70. adawells says:

    I’ve just been reading about a lady who recently lost a pregnancy at 22 weeks due to an incompetent cervix caused by a single lletz “treatment”. It is heartbreaking that a healthy baby can fall out of a womb and die, because of cervix damage from this procedure, which they promote as harmless. She had no follow up and no warning or advice that the procedure could result in such tragedy, distress and little hope for further pregnancy. I assume that she certainly wasn’t told that there was an 85% chance the CIN3 would clear up by itself, but women are just guinea pigs in this game as the following new article shows.

    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaoncology/fullarticle/2633183?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social_jn&utm_term=945772648&utm_content=content_engagement|article_engagement&utm_campaign=article_alert&linkId=38940906

    • Penelope says:

      Hi Adawells:

      Aye, ya, yaaaaa.

      That is a good article. But, I hate the picture. I’ll believe the woman is an actress. I didn’t see the link before just writing moments ago about women being shown in front of mammogram machines – of course naked from the waist down. That wouldn’t be if it were an article on a man getting a prostate exam or testicular exam. Still trying to find pictures of that – a man being shown from the back with hospital gown open – getting testicles checked – with the doctor sitting stage front on his (or her) stool to get a good look. I think I’ve seen, about 5 pictures in as many years, of men getting the rectal exams. However, they show it as a joke – not as a serious medical advisory like articles with mammograms and pelvic pictures.

      Well, at least the word is getting out that mammograms are not as necessary or beneficial as promoted to be. Just hate the picture.

      Be Blessed!

      • adawells says:

        I really hate the way birthing women are portrayed in the media -always on their backs, legs in the air. The best way is to be upright, but you never see this in films or photos.

      • Alex says:

        adawells: That’s true! I think they had a scene or two like that in Vikings, though. They definitely had one scene where one of them almost died (and they DID have a scene where she was saying that she never had anywhere near that much of an issue with her other pregnancies, but they never showed those).

        I think it would be a deal-breaker for me if a woman I was having a family with wouldn’t have them naturally (I get that it might be an unknown subject for her at the point of discussion, but I mean after all the research & conversation has been had). There’s so many things that can deform or make the kid retarded, that can give the woman injuries & infections, and all of this can be something of problematic consistency that might just be imposed against her wishes. So… .

  71. Kleigh says:

    Healthy woman do not “need” gynecologist. But gynecologist need healthy woman. Food for thought.

  72. katrehman says:

    Daily mail today ladies. A quarter of women put their lives at risk because they never heard of smear tests!

    • linda says:

      Hi Kat. This article does the rounds word for word about once or twice a year. It never changes. Of course theres the obligatory reference to Jade Goody as if she counts somehow. I laughed as i read the article. No mention of the dangers of testing. Also i watched that terrible video that goes with it. Horrofying.

      I doubt very much that there are women out there who’ve never heard of a smear tests and have no clue what it is about. They simply don’t want it! I wish somen would just be honest with these people and just say they dont want it.

      I’ve been placing comments on the phe website but they dont get past the checkers. They probably dont want to be inundated with a load of rape claims from women waking up and wondering what exactly has been going on for the past thirty years.

      I hope you are ok and read the book i put in kindle. 3 people have bought it so far so last sunday i put an extra fiver in the church collection.

      C u x

    • adawells says:

      Same old crap from the DM. I’ve ticked you up Kat and your comments are doing very well. I’ve noticed that the DM article says that the test saves 2,000 lives per year and not the 5,000 quoted by other medical propaganda outlets.

  73. adawells says:

    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/clinical/more-clinical-areas/sexual-health/gp-practice-level-cervical-cancer-screening-uptake-published-for-scrutiny/20034622.article

    They’re still fantasising that 28% of UK women are not attending smear tests because they don’t know what they are and have no idea how to go about getting one.

    • adawells says:

      Sorry about the link not working above, it displayed the full text when I first looked.
      Here’s another source:
      https://www.digital.nhs.uk/article/6672/Interactive-dashboard-provides-new-insight-into-cervical-screening-coverage

      • Mint says:

        I’m sure when some women are put on the spot as to why they don’t attend screening, many will say they “haven’t got the time” or “I can never get an appointment”, rather than say “I don’t want one” and avoid all the accusatory drama.

        As I have said many times on this forum, if a woman WANTS to do something, she will find the time. I get my nails done every fortnight. I work full time, I have children, I have grandchildren, I have elderly parents, I have pets, I have a home to run (!), I still manage to make that appointment.

  74. adawells says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/29/low-risk-breast-cancer-patients-could-spared-chemotherapy-new/amp/

    I thought I’d share this with the middle aged girls on here.😊
    Not only does this test spare chemo but also suggests no mammograms should be undertaken.
    I think this is the way it’s going to go. You can’t take an old toy away from a baby. You have to offer a new toy for them to be fixated with, and quietly ditch the old one when they aren’t looking. Same with screening.

    • moo says:

      Just to clarify. This test, Mammaprint is only available to women who have breast cancer. The test is done on biopsy tissue. So a women who gets this test would have had a diagnostic mammogram (due to a consultation about a concern ie symptoms or signs) or she had a screening mammogram that showed a tumour and had a biopsy which was positive for cancer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MammaPrint

      The 70 genes that indicate the risk of more serious cancer might also be in women who do not have breast cancer but the test is not available to them. So a woman having a benign tumour biopsied would not be allowed this test.

      Because the causes of cancer are not strictly genetic, is this test really of benefit to all women? No. It just benefits women who have cancer and their doctor’s cash flow. If some woman wanted this test to determine if she had genes that would make her more likely to develop a serious breast cancer, would it be available? Would it not make sense for a person to make lifestyle changes to avoid developing cancer? Probably the only advice she would get from a doctor is to have a mammogram which does not prevent cancer.

  75. moo says:

    Canadian women’s magazine reviews the EVE HPV kit.
    http://www.flare.com/health/at-home-hpv-test-review/
    Note how many times they mention that the HPV test is the first step in the process towards pap tests and pelvic exams.

    • adawells says:

      They’re terrified it’s the end of the road for them aren’t they. They “don’t think it will ever replace the doctor’s office”, “without a pelvic all sorts of serious abnormalities will be missed”, it’s “a first step for women to have some control?” Who does this Barbara think she is? A lot of us have already taken back control by getting to the truth about smear tests and making an informed decision, Babs, so you’d better start looking for another job!
      I do wish Ms Ching’s product takes off in a big way and puts these gyno quacks right out of business.

    • linda says:

      There is no information on the pros and cons of the test or even the fact its a vaginal examinations just the fact that it takes three minutes and the usual 5000 lives a year crap.
      Its about time these screening authorities grew up and face facts that women have got to the truth. They can see through the propoganda. Also pursuing young women by facebook is tantamount to hassling them especially if theyve had their letters and even a phone call. The whole thing is despicable

    • katrehman says:

      Can’t think how I missed this ! I’m actually really confused as to the point it wants to make. Why would. Woman feel guilt ? What’s empowering about having your vagina jacked open and a brush inserted? I don’t have Facebook or twitter but if I did I’d get well mad if I started getting smear test “invitations” on it! The couple of phone calls I got were bad enough….

  76. katrehman says:

    Linda I agree! They can’t leave well alone. Over on that loathsome cervicalscreen1 they seem to think beauticians should be recruited to increase uptake of smears. The logic is women have bikini waxes ect which involve exposing private parts so the beautician could promote the importance of smears! It really is harassment. Let’s capture them on Facebook.. Text them…ring them…go bard them with letters…harass them in doctor surgery….

    • linda says:

      Hi Kat glad you’re ok. I see someones given you a thumbs down it wasn’t me I have given you one up. Can’t believe they’d recruit beauticians as well. there’s no low these people won’t go to.

  77. Mint says:

    I can pretty much guarantee that the Essex campaign on Facebook will fail. The researchers have no idea as to how to connect with their target audience, just like they have no idea that the young women they are trying to target probably know exactly what a smear test is and have decided not to screen. In my experience of working with people in their twenties, Facebook is not their preferred social media option.

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