Research-savvy women who avoid doctors and forgo birth control prescriptions in order to escape pelvic exam coercion have recently been handed additional evidence to support their decisions. A study looking at the pros and cons of pelvic examinations found that routine screening exposes women to unnecessary and avoidable harms with no benefit (reduced mortality or morbidity rates). In a nutshell, the findings from the study support the following conclusions:
- Pelvic examinations in asymptomatic women do not reduce morbidity or mortality rates
- Many false-positive findings are associated with pelvic examinations
- Harms include unnecessary laparoscopies or laparotomies, fear, anxiety, embarrassment, pain, and discomfort, psychological and physical harms, as well as harms associated with the examination itself
- Studies that tracked the misdiagnosis rates and the unnecessary procedure related harms were conspicuously absent in the reviewed literature – and the researchers reviewed literature dating back to 1946 (in other words, no one is keeping track of the extent of these unnecessary harms)
- No evidence was found that pelvic examinations in asymptomatic women provide any benefit
As a result of the study findings, the American College of Physicians (ACP) strongly recommend that doctors stop performing routine pelvic examinations.
Different versions of this news were recently splashed all over mainstream media and many not-so-mainstream media venues such as Slate. It would have been difficult to miss the news that doctors have been advised to stop performing routine pelvic exams. However, given the backlash from ob-gyns and those women who believe they have been protected by routine exams one is left wondering if any changes will take place.
yep read this earlier and thought of you!
Thank you Cindy! 🙂 It’s interesting because often when I see a stunning picture I think of you.
Why is it “strongly suggest”? Don’t these doctors get TOLD something? What’s the idea? That they’re taught a variety of medical procedures & cobble together whatever agenda they want?
Instead of it being a “Hey, do whatever you want” situation, it should be a “You have no option for including attack in your methods of practice” situation. Where do they get the notion that they have some kind of right to defend incompetance?
P.S.- I know there’s no way to say anything so that someone else can’t lie or twist your words, but they’d be trying to pull the same things whether someone argued with them or not.
This male doctor says:
“There is no magic to the pelvic exam. Since the vagina is part of the body, it gets examined. Skipping the genitals seems about as smart as skipping the lung exam. What is so special about the genitals that we should skip them?”
Actually he should skip the lung exam as well, the whole annual examine-everything exam is not evidence based either and leads to over-investigation etc. Also, I don’t buy the vagina and ear are viewed in the same way argument. Yeah, sure….
“I find the “emotional” component idiotic in this sense: it assumes that women are too psychologically fragile to have their genitals examined, and it assumes that gynecologists have no training or common sense in dealing with survivors of abuse, assault, and rape. This is an argument for better doctoring, not for abandoning an exam altogether.”
This doctor doesn’t get it, does he?
Why on earth would anyone want their genitals examined for no good reason and when that practice exposes you to risk? Many women find this exam difficult for all sorts of reasons, it should not be performed unless it’s absolutely necessary and the woman provides informed consent. (symptomatic cases and even then it’s so unreliable it may be better to use other diagnostic tests, like the ultrasound)
“I find the recommendations put out by internists to be paternalistic and premature. The data aren’t sufficient to draw conclusions. It seems arbitrary to leave out a particular body part from a physical exam. If good studies are done in the future, ones designed specifically to evaluate the best way to approach women’s health, we should use that data to change our practices. For now, I see no good reason to eliminate the female genitals from the physical exam”
No, the recommendation is based on the evidence. Poor clinical value and the exam carries risk. No, the research is clear and that’s why other countries ditched this exam many years ago.
HE sees no good reason, his patients might though, some may choose to use the services of someone who follows the evidence in the future…and who puts the interests of his patients first.
Some doctors will say anything to hang onto this exam.
Oh the ship is sinking, and the rats are squeaking… music to my ears! Especially this one: “The data aren’t sufficient to draw conclusions. ” Yes, all SEVENTY YEARS of it. The one about women being too “psychologically fragile” to be coerced into quasi-sexual acts could be said by a paedophile too.
“How many pelvic exams does it take to diagnose one patient with ovarian cancer? How many does it take for a patient to disclose to her doctor a history of unsafe sexual practices, difficulties with intercourse, or a history of rape?”
It is useless in detecting ovarian cancer. Regarding the torture, ie penetrating the sexual organs in order to extract information, said information is NONE of their business. If someone would say they were a rape victim, what on earth this paternalistic male doctor would reply back, or could do for them? And unsafe sexual practices, what are these smoking????
The genitals are not “another part of the body”. If this was the case, there wouldn’t be laws regarding indecent exposure. For example, my husband cannot walk up the high street exposing his genitals without risking an arrest. However, I can fearlessly walk up the high street exposing both ears!
It feels at times that doctors will keep insisting on pelvic exams even if the exams are proven deadly. It’s like waiting for a car salesman telling you not to buy a car and ride a bike instead, isn’t it?
Elizabeth, you are doing such a heroic job of educating women around the world! I’m proud to be from the same country as you — Australia. I prefer to think of it as the country where Elizabeth lives, not a country of arrogant doctors, ignorant women and medical malpractice.
I probably have to thank you for now my happy life. I’m pretty sure that it was one of your posts years ago, somewhere in a blog about useless pap smears that made me think and start my own research.
Me and my partner have never been with anyone else in our lives, and I absolutely trust this man that he will never cheat. Nevertheless, we had all the tests done, including HPV — all negative. And yet doctors in every medical practice we go to when we move were treating him like an able human being, and me — as someone who has to be told to undress, spread my legs and let my genitals poked and probed no matter what the reason of my visit was. And of course, all that bull$hit about life-saving cervical screening was poured into my ears every time I tried to question doctors’ orders.
Thanks to one of your old posts, I realised that no screening can possible be beneficial for me, and only risks me to suffer unnecessary ham. I said bold and fat NO to all intimate exams, and don’t say yes to any tests before I do my own research. I simply don’t trust doctors anymore. I guess what: a feel much better, happier and healthier now than ever.
It was great to find this blog and to see you here.
Heather, welcome to the forum, you’ll enjoy it here, full to the brim with informed women.
Now that’s (sadly) still a fairly rare thing, but we’re moving in the right direction.
It warms my heart to hear one of my posts prompted you to take a closer look at this “life-saving” and “simple” test. I’ve always felt if my rantings helped a few people, it was worth the exercise, and the abuse that sometimes comes my way. I have to say though, the abuse, editing, being banned from sites etc. has dropped dramatically in the last 3 years, change is in the air!
I despair for Australian women, (well, all women really) when I read the NY Times it now seems like lots of Americans are questioning the value and need for these exams, yet I’m not sure the same can be said for us.
Americans now are being fed a steady stream of articles critically examining these tests and exams, while the crickets are still chirping here. Papscreen is rarely challenged even though I believe they give women BAD medical advice and have no respect for informed consent. (or consent itself, “offer her a pap test on the spot”) IMO, their mission is coverage, their survival, and meeting a govt target, they couldn’t care less about women. So women here get one message: get screened or die an early and preventable death! (and that’s been the case for decades)
Thanks to Robin Bell from Monash University we’re now hearing about the risks and uncertainties with breast screening. (that only happened about a year ago, even though concerns about mammography have existed within the profession for many years)
Dr Alex Barrett has joined them and I hope as time goes by, more will find a conscience and join these brave advocates prepared to stick their heads over the screening parapet.
(or give women the NCI summary on breast screening, enabling them to make an informed decision)
I think we’re miles behind as far as awareness of risks and ACTUAL benefit (if any) and critical discussion is concerned. (compared to the UK and the States) The States has Dr Gil Welch and the team at Dartmouth, Dr Carolyn Westhoff, IBIS (pushing for OTC access to the Pill etc.) and others, the UK has the fearless and persistent Prof Michael Baum, Margaret McCartney, Hazel Thornton, Angela Raffle and many more.
I attended the Evidence Live Conference in Oxford last year and there were speakers from Australia, I wouldn’t call them advocates though, I’ve never once heard them publicly challenge screening in this country…the non-evidence based program, no respect for informed consent/consent, misinformation, the unethical tactics used to get women screened, the harms of screening/excess biopsies/over-treatment and over-diagnosis, the ethics of hidden target payments. There is a LOT they could talk about and challenge. I left feeling we have few in this country fighting for our rights, protecting us from these programs, challenging the outrageous etc.
I think the States may see the Pill off-script before we do, the AMA should hang their head in shame, their conduct has been disgraceful, they’ve sided with these programs, still link the Pill and pap testing and will fight to maintain control over women…so no OTC access to the Pill and no self-testing. (and probably the introduction of a call and recall cervical screening program…why? Greater control over women)
Our new program (if it’s approved) has excess built in to keep vested interests happy, we’ll use HPV primary testing FROM age 25, when we know women under 30, (about 40%) will be HPV+, transient and harmless infections that will clear by age 30. I’ll bet these poor women will be sent for immediate colposcopy and biopsy. No HPV self-testing will be offered unless you decline the invasive version of the HPV test for 6 years. (that gives them plenty of time to hassle you)
AND, HPV primary testing will continue until an absurd 74. (not 60)
(and we’re extending the breast screening program to include those up to age 74, why? There is no evidence of benefit, but it’s political brownie points and more joy for vested interests. I see more false positives, fear, anxiety, excess biopsies, over-diagnosis and over-treatment. (that will harm many women and take some lives)
We had an opportunity to put women first, but once again, vested interests came first, they KNEW they had to change our pap testing program, it’s harming huge numbers of women that’s getting harder to hide, but had to keep all those who feed off this program happy so they didn’t scare the herd. A problem when you’ve deliberately misled women over decades and denied them a right to choose, to make an informed decision.
It seems to me many or perhaps, even most, women here don’t question cancer screening and we do that at our peril. These programs expose us to serious risk for no, little or uncertain benefit.
So pleased you found the information you needed to make an informed decision. Yes, lifetime mutually monogamous partners are never mentioned by this program, we’re told, “if you’ve had sex, even once, you’re at risk”…THEY feel it’s safer to assume all men are unfaithful. Of course, if they respected women as competent adults, they’d give us real and complete information and allow us to make that assessment.
They don’t have the right to keep us in the dark, make decisions for us, make assumptions about us and our partner or accept risk on our behalf.
I look forward to reading more of your comments.
Elizabeth, thank you so much!
I can only guess how much of your personal time you dedicate to this noble mission of educating women and revealing the truth, and how much of insult and mistreatment you receive along the way. This makes you literally a hero.
You saved me years of disgusting tests, pain, anxiety and possible harm. You gave my partner a happy, confident woman. You made both of us question every doctor’s “recommendation”, and as a result our health improved. You empowered me to pass the information to my family and friends, and many of them done the same further.
I won’t be wrong to assume that you might’ve saved thousands of women around the world. If the “Australian of the Year” award wasn’t so politically-brownie-point-ed, you should’ve been one of the nominees at the very least.
It is just very unfortunate that Australian health care, as a system, is an utter disgrace: infection rates of the third-world magnitude; misinformation, misogyny and paternalism of the early last century era; doctor’s incompetence not deserving of that of a developed country; the usage of womens health care in political and monetary gains; and almost total inability to put the patients’ interest above everything else. Every year, when I’m lodging my tax return and filing the Medicare and PHI section, I’m disgusted and ashamed to think of what we are actually paying for.
Australian medical system works along two lines:
1. To gain for itself (power, money, influence, etc).
2. To protect itself (to be able to keep doing the #1 indefinitely).
Any questions, challenges and free-thinkers are ignored, ridiculed or silenced.
And that is why I admire you so much Elizabeth! You dare to question, you find the truth, and you selflessly share it with others. And you give people a chance for a happy and healthy life. I know that for sure, from my personal experience.
Thank you for being you!
Agree about Elizabeth, what she does is invaluable.
I cannot figure out the medical system. They hold on tight to ideas from bad or outdated or misunderstood science such as the link between cholesterol and heart disease and drink eight glasses of water a day. The research linking cholesterol and heart disease was found to be wrong when it was replicated and yet Dr’s still prescribe mediation to lower cholesterol in the effort to prevent heart disease. They ignore current research showing a link between vitamin D and many illnesses and cancer. But when a seventy year longitudinal study clearly shows that the pelvic exam is of low clinical value they cling to it. Looking at the picture in the linked article I can clearly see that they couldn’t feel anything. The DRE was dropped from medical practice on much less evidence. The Dr’s are all panicking and saying must protect income. The medical system claims it’s based on science but it’s really based on protecting income which is why many Dr’s to not follow evidence based practice.
A friend of mine went to a gyno once a year to have an exam just because she thought it was ”necessary”. She told me that every time she’d had the exam, she’d experienced some infections. The infections were troublesome so she went again to get a prescription for an antiseptic, but to get it, she ”had to” have a exam, which obviously caused another infection. The antiseptic ointments didn’t work too much. Her grandma advised her to make irrigations of CAMOMILE, MARIGOLD, NETTLE AND SAGE – normally bought as tea bags and they did work. Since she made a couple of irrigations, she hasn’t been at a gyno at all and hasn’t had any infections – magic?
Yeah and doctors will tell you NEVER to douche. If women healed themselves with herbs and nutrition how would they ever make any money?
Even having sex ONCE is a risk for HPV? They sell that hogwash to the lesbian community with anything in the vagina, a finger, a toy, a tampon and they all need Pap tests even if they or their partners never had penis in vagina sex.
I am waiting to see what the new Ontario health minister, a male doctor responds to pressures about the every three year Pap test rule passed by his predecessor. They still do not fund the HPV. It is recommended but has to be paid for by the patient, $70 and it is only available with a Pap test and pelvic exam.
Article re: $190 million settlement on lawsuit concerning Dr. Levy and the more than 8,000 women he filmed while performing pelvic exams http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/johns-hopkins-to-pay-out-190m-to-settle-lawsuit-over-secret-video-recordings-1.2713649
From the article: “Some women told of being inappropriately touched and verbally abused by Levy, according to Schochor. In some cases, women said they were regularly summoned to Levy’s office for unnecessary pelvic exams.”
Well, it turns out that almost ALL pelvic exams are unnecessary. Also from the article it states many women ” were so traumatized that they dropped out of the medical system, and some even stopped sending their children to doctors“. Women don’t have to have been filmed in order to “drop out of the medical system” – the exam on its own is traumatic enough. Especially when coerced or bullied into it. When will there be some recognition or transparency about what occurs on a daily basis in women’s “health care”?
More about this case.
The doctor was fired but committed suicide some days later. The hospital her worked for has the pay the settlement. It is doubtful that most victims will get any money because most of the photos did not include their faces, only their genitals. How are these women going to have get their compensation and go through having their name in public and possibly photos as evidence in public court. The dmage is huge.
How this man abused women verbally and touched them inappopriatey. Was there any record of complaints agianst this doctor or were his victims to afraid or embarrassed to come forward? Among his patients were also girls, 62 numbered in the article I read. He also circumvented the policy of having a chaperone in the room at all times. How ,any times was he alone with a patient/victim?
Lawyers on this cases.
Details of what the doctor did, oddities of the exams
I’ve got a question: What, if anything IS a regular pelvic exam useful for? Apparently, the pap test portion that tends to get included, but isn’t terminologically linked, doesn’t work as advertised & can cause serious problems on its own or serve as a catalyst for other things that do.
I was wondering if it was just an added poke for its own sake & for sake of having something to connect false indications to. Can’t say “Well, we think you have this because of our blind assumption.”
Here’s an encouraging story in semi-mainstream media: http://www.redandblack.com/uganews/online-student-petition-contests-uhc-birth-control-policy/article_e40da480-e21b-11e4-81e4-27d86e86701a.html
A University student got fed up with the “required” annual exam linked with birth control and started a petition. Nice to see it’s getting some attention.
Ouch, Linda. I didn’t read THAT much into it, but aren’t there times where a guy DOES function as protection for the woman.
Thank you Sue for the post. I really don’t understand the concept of an ‘age appropriate exam.’ I had no idea that there was such a ‘perverts charter’ in America. I am glad women are fighting back. Right through history we have been agents of our own change. Never the men. If men all disappeared tomorrow, I for one would not be sorry.
Signed it & it seems to almost have enough signatures. don’t know what happens when they get that number, does the pill go over-the-counter at that point?
I think it was good that it was mentioned in a way that denotes more than a time-drain. Still, it would be good if it mentioned that it’s an assault when someone is pushed into it like that & the lack of overall medical utility.
Just a thought: Starting those petitions seems to be pretty easy. Maybe it’s an idea to keep starting petitions on this subject or ones that blanket this situation (like “Call Iatrogenic Abuse For What It Is” or “No Coercion In Medicine” or something like that).
Sorry Alex. Not you of course!!!! Some will be allowed to live!!!!.
Hi everyone. Its a busy morning for me. I have just received by post an invitation to come for breast screening. Apparently an appointment has already been made for me Tuesday 5th May at Noon if this is not convenient for me I’m to ring them up and make another appointment. I knew that when I was fifty it was heading my way. Well here it is. With a nice pink lovely laid out booklet as well so I can forget all about the fact they want to bombard my little lovelies with radiation.
If I ever get a letter it will not be opened but marked “refused” and thrown back into the post. This is totally legal in Canada.
Actually I should never get a cancer screening invitation because I filled out a form to stop the letters. It however does not allow me to remove myself from their database or stop any doctor from harassing me about screening at any medical visit. Ontario does not allow anyone to opt of of their cancer screening programmes. Some provinces such as Alberta do.
Ever notice how forced vaccinations are now the huge debatable issue?
It makes me madd that they make appointments for woman with out permission. That is going to far. I bet if a woman tries to cancel they will harass and scare her.
Make another appointment? Who said you agreed to this?
Of course I won’t be going and out of pure devilment I am not contacting them to let them know that.
I’d do exactly the same thing, Linda, you didn’t ask for an appointment, so why should you call them. It’s a tactic, of course, they know some women will feel obliged to turn up or thinks it’s necessary/important, something they MUST do, and if they call, they can then Q and pressure them.
Of course, the cat is OUT of the bag with breast screening, the dirty tricks are just pathetic, they must realize the ship is sinking, taking their screening machines with them…
Elizabeth – yes I have noticed, there is far less resistance to informed consent and far more acceptance of impartial information with regards to breast screening than there is to cervical screening. Any forum or blog on the latter is dominated by women who tell others to go and “suck it up” and have cervical screening even if they just question whether there is an alternative method of testing available. Appalling – I would never dare talk to a friend or family member like that, never mind a stranger on the internet whose informed decision to not screen has no bearing on my own life!
Sure, there are pockets of resistance within the breast screening community (especially the NHS & Breast Screening Wales/ England/ Scotland) but in the UK, there is a growing sense of acceptance that breast screening causes harm and a decision to screen or not screen should take this into account. I feel it’ll be another 5-10 years before cervical screening reaches this position and thousands more women, encouraged by the campaigners and the militants will have been harmed by then.
Of course, the cat IS out of the bag wrt breast screening – there’s no denying the evidence.
But I have a feeling that the bullying and harrying of older, perhaps less gullible and more assertive women is harder to achieve. The targets of cervical screening harrassment campaigns I feel are generally women under 35 – older and more assertive women are much harder to coerce.
I’ve said it before & I’ll say it again – women are agents of their own destiny. This nonsense will only stop when more challenge this ridiculous system.
Linda: It’s okay & I’m glad to hear it (although, I’ll admit: most of my problems from people have been from men- not too quick to assume a “bro” will have my back, since plenty have tried to stab me in it).
It’s pretty funny that you’re not going to let them know. With semi-socialized medicine, I’d think you’d avoid the bill from not showing up (in America, they feel free to bill you if you miss an appointment with them- but they don’t pay you if they cancel at the last minute).
Didn’t Switzerland outright do away with those screenings? I find Europe so interesting, although I worry about the direction it’s taking (sometimes I worry that it’ll go the way America is seeming to go- like a “luxury prison” with less & less luxury).
That or it getting taken over by Muslims, in one form or another. I know that comes off racist (even though Muslim isn’t a race), but it sounds like there’s a passive-aggressive effort at conquering the continent through immigration & complaining (specifically, that if they don’t get what they want it’s being oppressed). Just something I’m trying to do some scouting on, since I’m pretty strongly inclined toward leaving this country & it’s hard to get information that isn’t politically correct.
Hi Alex. Since globalisation took over it seems there is no where truly free except for perhaps Antarctica. It will be hard for you living there but I will try and get out supplies to you from time to time!!!
While the internet has put all of us like minded people together to vent our anger the same technology is used to keep whole populations under surveillance. I only read yesterday on Elizabeth’s post that now they are having a call and recall system in Australia which I always thought was a free country. Now like us (in England) loads of women over there are going to be ‘harvested.’
Apolyptic Queen also posted yesterday how we are all under the illusion we live free and in democracies. I had never really given it much thought before. As I have said I only just woke up from the ‘matrix’ style sleep. I am shocked to find of all the women in the world who are treated badly by the system it is American ones who I always believed to be free.
When I was younger I hated ‘smear tests’ but went along with them as I actually thought they were mandatory. Its only now that I’m older I realise if I had been the person I am now back then I would never have gone along with it. Its disgusting. I can’t tell you how horrible having your vagina penetrated by an unwanted instrument is. A complete stranger just pushing that thing into your most private space. Its beyond awful. I feel utterly repulsed by the whole concept. My heart breaks for all those young Australian women who will look back one day and thing why did I go through with that. Its like there’s a conspiracy to have every woman on the planet vaginally checked in some weird way. Its like some surreal scifi/horror film that you just wouldn’t believe could come true.
I can not begin to describe how angry I am. I think Sue thinks I am mad because I am never off this site looking things up and reading old posts but its like its giving me some weird comfort.
I used to worry about Muslims however I got to know one who had come here from Turkey and I can assure you she is lovely. She has become my best friend. She would never do anything to harm me or you. I think its just a few. I believe they are even forcing ‘smears’ on young Muslim women in England who are very conservative about their vagina’s. I read about one young Muslim girl practically suicidal because she thought that the ‘smear test’ she was forced into having recently had taken her virginity. She could feel her hymen break. Now she believed that if she ever got married there would be problems convincing her husband she was a virgin which is culturally very important to them. Plus she had wanted to ‘save’ herself for the man she loved.
Its just a shame.
They don’t deserve your time.
Its not your problem BC they made a appointment with out concentrate. You don’t ow them a thing.
“Forcing” virgin Muslim women into getting pap test smears is criminal. Some women have been murdered by their families if a question of their “family honour” and they do not appear to be a virgin on their wedding night. They are supposed to bleed after their first sexual encounter with their husband as proof of their virginity. While honour killing is abhorred in many countries there might still be the chance that a woman is married off to a husband in a country where this still happens. Even in Western countries a woman and her family my face reprussions if her virtue is questioned. Often young Muslim girls will not take part in sports or be discouraged to play actively running around, jumping because sometimes the hymen is also broken this way.
Some gynecologists have a very lucrative sideline of offering hymen repair surgeries to restore a torn hymen so that these women will bleed on the wedding night. I wonder if they are the same ones who are not informing women that a pap test smear might damge their hymen. I wonder if even receiving a pap registry invitation letter could endanger a young women’s life. While I agree that honour killing is abhorant, I believe that there still needs to be some cultural sensitivity.
Refering to the article linked about the student’s petition. Notice how some doctors will say they do not require a pelvic (vagina) exam to give a birth cintrol prescription. Yes, they will give a presciption for a three or four months worht of birth control pills and then tell the woman that they will not renew it until they come in for a pelivc exam. It is not that they will NEVER require a pelvic exam only postpone it. It is lying.
Don’t worry Kleigh I won’t be going. I am officially ‘a defaulter’ on all things. Yeah. the freedom.
Think of yourself as a modern day suffragette, fighting the system. Calling us defaulters is one of their dirty tactics to make us feel like screening is an obligation. No, screening is a optional test, we’re not given enough information to make an informed choice in the first place, and I sure as hell didn’t sign a contract saying I agreed to this shit! Therefore, I cannot be a defaulter, so go and do one, NHS!
What happened to your friend is an utter disgrace. WTF, they’re so desperate to get bums on seats that they’re testing virgins now? I would make an official complaint about that. It’s sexual assault.
That’s one of the things that really makes my blood boil – this implication that because the test is for medical purposes there’s nothing sexual about it and thus there’s nothing violating about it. Bullshit! It makes no difference whether the object inserted is a penis or a medical instrument – the vagina is a sexual organ and doesn’t suddenly stop being a sexual organ when you’re in the doctor’s office. Penetration is penetration, and penetration without consent is rape.
Calling them “defaulters” IS pretty shitty. It uses implicit reasoning to say that they’ve done something bad. I guess calling them “bitches” would be too obvious, so they disguise their sentiments.
Moo: It can also just be an outright lie to make themselves look good. They tell people to their faces that they’d make their own choices about things, but then get pushy & dictatorial.
I want to tell a story about my wife who had an appointment With her doctor,a female doctor of courseBut first some background information.My wife is a catholic and we married 30 years ago.We were both Young,she was 18 and i was 23.She was a Virgin when i married her and i am the only man who has ever seen or touched her private parts.We have 2 lovely children and both of them are born without any other males present,except me.My wife is a nurse working in a hospital and she says that she had seen enough about how male doctors,male nurses and male technisians are threating women.Women who are too afraid to speak up against this “important Health care providers”.Hehehe,i think they feel important in their own ego eyes only.And my wife has never in her Whole life been inside a male doctors Office.She says that she would feel sick and might throw up if a strange male want to touch her body.This is my wife and i feel proud of beeing married With such a wonderful woman.This is the woman i want to share the rest of my life With.
Back to the topic.A few weeks ago my wife had an appointment With her female doctor.When she arrived at the clinic,they told her that her doctor was absent because of sickness.And then they told her they been making an appointment With another doctor,a male doctor.My wife only laughed and said she never consulted any male doctor for any reason.And before she left that clinic she said that they could Call on the phone when her doctor was back.I was there With her since she always want me to be With her to back her up.And the best thing of all was that the male doctor who was supposed to examin her was listening to the conversation.He said nothing,but looked same as if somebody steal his candy.Hehehe,i got a good laugh.So my advice to all of you ladies out there who are feeling a pressure about examinations that you dont want,stand up and fight them.Its Your body and you are the boss of Your body.And please,stop thinking about that doctors are so important an have a high status.In my country,Norway,doctors are no more important than engineers,plumbers,electrisians or whatever.When you visit a doctors Office,take Control at once and show who is the boss.
Norway sounds wonderful. I can’t stand the damn-near worshipful attitude that people have here (U.S.) of basically any medical personnel.
It’s like they could just say: “Well, we’re going to put you down now.” “What? You mean like killing me?” “Yes.” “Why?” “Well it’s just our policy in situations like yours.” “What do you mean “situations like mine”?” “It would be too hard to explain, look- would you just roll up your sleeve & we’ll get this over with?” “Uh…okay.”
I’m actually somewhat serious about that- although a lethal injection at their or someone else’s discretion would be a little much in some cases.
Speaking of all this: I just heard that Norway expanded the mandatory military service to women as well as men. Apparently, the dorm rooms are also co-ed (I don’t figue it’s a bad idea to have the BUILDING that way).
What’s the situation with all that medically? I know in America they get quite dictatorial, with the women especially. Was just wondering happens in the physical in Norway? I partially wonder because I could see living there, but I also figure I’m not eligible since I’m not originally from Norway.
Linda, I couldn’t agree more with your comment:
“I can’t tell you how horrible having your vagina penetrated by an unwanted instrument is. A complete stranger just pushing that thing into your most private space. Its beyond awful. I feel utterly repulsed by the whole concept.” So true!
I am now in my fifties and have found that getting older has it’s advantages as there is no way in hell I can be coerced into allowing any access to my body that I do not want or consent to. No amount of shaming, blaming, bullying, belittling or any other tactic can work on me now. To the medical profession, this repulsive test is ‘simple’, ‘painless’ ‘quick’ etc. For many of us it is a horrible violation. The last time I received an ‘invitation’, I chucked it in the bin. I have no intention of ever attending again.
Chrissy (UK): Why do you think it works differently with younger women? If anything, I’d think they’d be more immune to it- seeing as older women (around here) seem to frequently trust doctors & basically anybody with schooling. Also, a younger woman would be more alert to little tricks & tactics to get her clothes off or at her parts.
Not for nothing, but a younger woman seems to be more able to get someone to help her out in this society (what with older people not generally being valued). Not advocating disregard for old people, of course. Just saying that she’d probably have an easier time of getting someone to walk her to her car (or something else along those lines) as a young woman than an old one.
Good for you Chrissy. I’m so glad more women are standing up to this. I like you have really found my voice now i’m fifty. God help any doctor or practice nurse that crosses me. I have every argument they could come at me with at my fingertips since reading all the articles and posts. Plus at the end of it I can always just say NO!!!. My vagina. My decision what goes in there. My transformation since finding this website has been amazing. I am spreading the word about this site to save more young women. As its the young who are vulnerable.
It angers me, as I’m sure it does everyone here, that to save a few, the people behind this vile programme have mass penetrated the entire female half of the human race. I reckon something like 80% of women on the planet have had this done. They are even rolling out the programme in places you never new existed. Its beyond belief. Its like the nazis won the war all along we just didn’t realize it. .
Its hard for me to stand up to people because I was always raised to be polite and not rock the boat. But at the end of the day no matter what they say, they can’t force your clothes of and spread your legs unless they want to get charged for rape.
See, I never saw what was impolite about hitting someone back or blocking off an issue or whatever else (running, hiding, etc…).
Also, I figure THEY are “rocking the boat” by directing these things at you- especially in a pushy way. That includes being sneaky or using manipulative tactics (like guilt trips & such).
Also I found a Kevin MD site called” do you follow cancer screening guide lines.”. The contents are interesting most are against it ,questioning all the paps.
Alex, I was brought up to not question doctors, as were many of my generation. In my youth they were considered to be almost demi-gods and you didn’t question their decisions. I won’t go into details of my experiences as a young woman when I encountered the obstetric zeitgeist of the 1970s and 1980s, but enough to say it damaged my psyche in a way I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy. My gut feeling at the time this was happening was that something was radically wrong, but I hit a brick wall when trying to engage anyone with how I felt, which included my ‘couldn’t care less’ ex-husband. As I got older and now no longer at their mercy during pregnancy, I found it harder and harder to submit to the 3 yearly cervical screening ‘invitations’, but along with many others, thought that it was something I had to do because I believed cervical cancer was rampant and I could potentially die of it. This was compounded by knowing at least 4 women who had laser treatment for abnormal results.
About 3 years ago, I knew I was ‘due’ for another test, but I just couldn’t face it again. I decided to investigate exactly what I was risking, so I searched online for information. I found the Blogcritics site (now shut down) where I was astonished to find out that cervical cancer is not just rare, but the chances of being over-treated were far higher that actually developing cc, which explained why I knew so many women who had been treated for an abnormal result.
I hope that you are correct that today’s young women are able to see through the BS, but I am not so sure. All I know is that getting older has given me a voice I never had in my youth.
“All I know is that getting older has given me a voice I never had in my youth”…
Anon, me too, isn’t it brilliant and empowering?
“so I searched online for information”
Women who are questioning screening have only the internet to turn to, as printed materials are all pro-screening propaganda. I think it is important get an online presence as much as possible, on all the websites that women turn to for information about this: newspaper sites, health sites, twitter, yahoo, mumsnet etc. In other words, what Elizabeth is doing already! It is important to let women know there is another way, and let the pro-screening lobby know they will be challenged, we are fighting back, and are gaining followers.
In theory, a bunch of women could had out pamphlets & such- maybe during a small protest of their various bullshit? People protest all kinds of things even when they aren’t in large groups & it could always be a general bodily autonomy or malpractice type of protest with heavy emphasis on them pushing women around.
Maybe a this sort of thing being brought up at a women’s history course at a college or in a self-defense course (would be fairly easy to mention as an unconventional/unexpected threat that can also come up if defense against a regular one doesn’t go well- going to the hospital after getting beaten up & robbed, for example). I’d think it’d be fairly easy to say that it shouldn’t be that one has to worry that they’re going to attack you & other people are going to disqualify it.
Maybe a bunch of people handing out these pamphlets around the medical part of campus would be useful? That one is in last place in ideas for a couple of reasons: One is that I simply presume this is the way doctors are aligned- plain & simple. Two is that I don’t know if that would be a good idea, since they’d probably just try to protect it & that would get in the way of getting more women informed.
On more thing: It could be brought up in conversation with men- like when discussing various dangers or crazy “head in the freezer” type shit. Not too hard to make the conversational leap from someone breaking in the house to aggressively “play doctor” to an assualtive situation in a medical setting.
The ‘Anonymous’ post above to Alex is from me. I forgot to add my name.
I hope so, but some of them are disturbingly down-trodden. I think today’s women aren’t aligned toward that view of them being demi-gods or whatever, but it seems that they are VERY big on image & that might make it easier to have an “emperor’s new clothes” situation. They’re not going to worry about someone’s title, but they might not want to seem overly smart or somehow prudish (although I don’t see what’s prudish about having self-determination, it’s the difference between going topless at the beach & getting your top yanked off).
I think it also is a fairly common trend to not fight back against fucked-up things, plain & simple. That’s across the board. It’s bizarre, considering the level of fixation on war & bug-out situations. Not to mention psychotic killers- so much of TV is one murder & plenty of it the apeshit-crazy kind (rather than the argument turning into a knife fight kind).
“Yes Obamacare was sold on the liberal myth that screening worked well and could replace expensive acute care with preventive services. While this sounds plausible, our preventive services don’t generally work. We were sold a bill of goods by physicians (which explains why young healthy females are hyperscreened for a ladies affecting their sex organs). Palpation is not a valid diagnostic but it’s fun and billable.” and
(I think that should read “hyperscreened for anything affecting their sex organs – think auto-correct went the wrong way)
“We have known oral contraceptives were OTC safe since the 1980s but ACOG (OB GYNs) were worried that without this tool they couldn’t coerce their invasive sexualized exams (similar story with annual Pap smears). Science has not been kind to their recommendations for women (eg USPSTF gave clinical breast exams an “I” for in inconclusive and Pelvic exams are out and out contraindicated in asymptomatic women). Why these physicians aren’t in jail for rape is beyond me. Funny how often providers’ self interest trumps their patients well being”
These comments are by an American male who calls himself “Count me amused”…I agree with his comments when it comes to women’s “healthcare”. I follow his comments, he often comments on women’s “healthcare” – let’s just say he’s an informed man and (like us) he’s not the slightest bit amused – I agree with him, they’re back peddling now, but why were doctors allowed to coerce women into unnecessary pelvic and breast exams and for an elective screening for decades? Why is it still permitted to go on? (We know some doctors are still misleading and pressuring women, some continue with coercion)
His comments followed an article stating that Donald Trump believes oral contraceptives should be available without a script.