The Other Side of the Speculum: A Male Doctor’s Point of View

  • Hang on to your knickers and read what a Doctor has to say on the subject of pap smears and pelvic exams.  What follows is a comment from Blogcritics.org written by a Doctor that uncovers an honest and all-male point of view (Warning: may be disturbing to some readers):
    Apr 07, 2010 at 4:08 am

    Hello,

    I’ve read several of the posts here, and just wanted to get a few things off my chest . . .

    I am a doctor myself, in a smallish town in the midwest. I’m in a specialty where we do not do pelvic exams, but of course I was trained in how to do them while in medical school. It has always bothered me, for a couple of reasons, but the male/female thing has been the main thing originally. I always got a small, secret thrill out of doing a pelvic exam (or a breast exam, for that matter) on an attractive woman. Because we were told that “it’s not sexual,” “it’s just a medical procedure, nothing sexual about it, no reason to have sexual thoughts,” I though I was weird. I didn’t worry that much because I knew I wasn’t going into an area where I would do exams, but…

    Then, during residency, I worked with a lot of doctors in the community, and discovered that, for most of them, it WAS at least partly sexual: they would sit around in the lounges and such and sometimes discuss the anatomy of beautiful women who’d been in, and on two occasions discussed, in front me and everyone else, the sexual anatomy attributes of women who worked in the hospital, nurses and such that were mutual acquaintances. I was horrified! I have to say, too, that many doctors, when I asked (because it bothered me), talked about it like, “Oh, it’s just another test to have to do, kind of boring, really.”

    Still, the inescapable fact is that a guy likes to look at a naked woman. Period. Doctors are no different. They like to look at naked women, too. So, if they get PAID to look–I mean, really LOOK–at a woman’s sexual organs, and even better, they get to touch them, well… So much the better! I’m not saying that doctors do exams just to get a sexual thrill, because the circumstances really don’t allow a full-out sexual experience, but given a choice between doing a lung exam on an 80-year-old guy or a pelvic exam on an attractive 30-year-old woman, I’d say most docs would MUCH rather do the latter. They’re only human. They would flatly deny having any such thoughts (in most cases), but deep down, they ARE men, after all.

    So, I think sometimes part of what prompts docs to urge women to have more testing is, that secretly they kind of like doing it. The money doesn’t hurt (i.e., they get paid to do it). In terms of pap smears being unnecessary for post-hysterectomy women, they also probably often just don’t know–there are several things in my specialty which GPs do wrong, all the time, even though they should know better. The ACOG recommends that even without doing pap smears, women have pelvic exams regularly, to screen for various cancers that are of very little risk. I’m sure part of that is just the “hyperscreening” that we’ve gotten sucked into, part of it is the money, and part is the male domination of women (gives you a great chance to stand there, fully clothed, with a woman who is naked and in a vulnerable position), and the chance to look at and touch naked women.

    My wife (my second wife) and I got married last year, just past age 50 (for both of us). She had a hysterectomy (for benign disease) nearly 20 years ago. Before we married, she got kind of funny one day, then when I asked about what was wrong she admitted that she had had to make an appointment to “get my pap smear,” which she felt guilty for missing for the previous few years. I informed her she didn’t need one any more, and she told me I was wrong, that her gyn had told her she DID need them YEARLY, even though she’d had a hysterectomy. I showed her the research and persuaded her not to go back, ever, to that gyn.

    Later, in looking at her records myself, I find that she had a small cyst removed from her back a few years ago. The surgeon did a complete pelvic exam as part of the physical before surgery. A VERY complete pelvic exam. There was no need for that (he did NOT record anything other than lungs, heart, breasts, and pelvic exam on his H&P report). A couple of years later she had a small cyst removed from her shoulder. THAT surgeon (a different one) did a complete breast exam as part of her H&P. My wife works in the hospital, with all these doctors (she’s in administration). She had her first colonoscopy last year, and the GI doc did a complete pelvic exam as part of her exam. Again, no medical reason to do that. She is not unattractive (not a magazine-model stunner, but attractive–I think she’s the most attractive woman in the world, but realistically she’s average attractiveness).

    In my office, I am now doing a small study. I’ve asked women who come in (either as patients or as family members of patients) who are aged 30-60, who have had hysterectomies, whether they have continued to have pap smears/pelvic exams and whether their doc has recommended they still have them. I rank them as “attractive,” “not unattractive,” or “unattractive,” being aware this is a judgement call and not really PC (but the ones I’ve judged “unattractive,” I think everyone would agree, are really not attractive at all). So far, I’ve had 14 women agree to answer my questions, and the results have stunned me: of the 4 unattractive ones, all were told they no longer need to have pap smears/pelvic exams, because of their hysterectomies (even though for one, the hyst’y was for cancer, meaning she DOES need to continue exams). Of the 4 “not unattractive,” 3 have continued to have paps/pelvics irregularly (not yearly but every few years, at least), and 2 told me their doc told them they needed them, in one case “yearly” (and her doc was the same one who told 2 of the unattractive ones not to bother with exams any more, including the 1 who had had cancer)–the other 2 never asked and were never told anything by their doc. Of the “attractive” ones (all of whom had hyst’y for benign disease), only 2 have continued paps/pelvics, but all told me their doctors have continually told them they need to come in for regular exams, including pap smears and pelvic exams (interestingly, all but 1 had the same doctor who’d told 2 unattractive ladies not to come back). My wife’s (previous) gyn had told one of the unattractive ladies not to have further paps/pelvics, and 1 of the attractive ones she really, really needs them regularly (and she has, until our discussion).

    Make your own judgement there, but that’s one more reason to be skeptical of attempts to get women to have regular exams. If I were a woman, I would not go to a male doc for such an exam, ever.   http://blogcritics.org/unnecessary-pap-smears/

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About forwomenseyesonly

Hi. My name is Sue and I am interested in promoting holistic and respectful health care.
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448 Responses to The Other Side of the Speculum: A Male Doctor’s Point of View

  1. Jessica says:

    My stomach is turning right now after reading this.I just had an exam yesterday by a male doctor.I’m going to puke:(

  2. alexis says:

    ASK YOUR DOCTOR ABOUT “SELF TEST” KITS WHETHER THE DOCTOR IS MALE OR FEMALE, & YOU DO NOT NEED A PELVIC EXAM FOR BIRTH CONTROL. TAKE BACK YOUR BODY. THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY FEELS THAT IT IS THEIR RIGHT TO NUDE YOU AS A PERK, AND FOR GREED. DONT BE NAIVE!

    “There are several viable options to screen for HPV without a pelvic exam, including the Cervista urine test. If a patient tests negative for HPV, she has a better chance of being struck by lightning than getting cervical cancer. So tell me, do you routinely offer this alternative to your patients, or do you scare them into returning for their exam every year (which, in itself, is due to the high error rate of paps), withhold their birth control to coerce them into Paps, and make them think that cervical cancer is looming to kill them at any second?”

    http://www.cervistahpv.com/laboratory/cervistahpvhr/index.html

  3. Ellie says:

    Oh look, another great reason not to have male doctors anywhere near women

    • Doctors who are not the same sex as you examining you is inevitable. I have a female GP who ended up checking my testicles for lumps. I also ended up having a female surgeon refine both my testicles when they both were diagnosed as being cancerous.

      • Eddie says:

        inevitable? People kill me…as if telling the medical community you will stand up and demand your rights is somehow wrong. Patients have rights…and despite what the medical community says in response no is a viable answer. Emergencies are not what I am speaking of.

      • Tracy Ann says:

        Right — but the female doc isn’t getting a thrill handling your frank and beans.

      • nanarhonda says:

        Tracy Ann, how do you know that the female doc isn’t getting a thrill handing his frank and beans, as you put it? There are also lesbian doctors who enjoy doing pelvic exams as well… so how would one know how to tell one from the other? I am asking sincerely since this has become a more sexual society world wide. How does a patient find the right doctor for the intimate exams?

      • Anonymous says:

        The patient decides what exams are necessary, no matter what gender is doing it. And doctors worrying about being sued is balogne…That is just an excuse to do what they want to do…too much of all this is about narcissism and control. Doctors hate it when the patient takes control.

      • nanarhonda says:

        Anonymous,
        I agree 100% that doctors hate it when patients are in control. And patients should be in control. First, its their body. Second, its their money whether they pay out of pocket or its a benefit of their employer, they still work for it.

        Too many people do not realize that they need to be their OWN advocate, because if they don’t, no one else will.

        Thanks,
        Rhonda Radandt aka nanarhonda

  4. Kleigh says:

    Alex, it has been monthes since I have posted hear. I read u asked me why do woman go along or agree to exams. I can only speak for my self. When i had that exams I was 17 and didnt know really how they do a pelvic exam. Doctors do not explane these exams to woman how they do them or even ask for permission. I remember thinking that they were just gona look at my hips bc thats what a “pelvic exam” sounds like. And that is another problem I have with this. I Also wonder if this termenaolgy is used to trick woman into thinking it is not a internal exam. IF A woman doesnt know that the doctor is going internal till she is naked in a open gown and a nurse brings in a table with insturments. Its as tho they want the woman naked and vonerable so they will feel presuerd to comply. I Know some woman already know what a pelvic exam is but alot of woman and young girls realy do not know what they are going along with and probly whould panic and refuse or leave. I think the word “pelvic exam” is a trick in its self and then not explaning exams or asking for concent.

    • Alex says:

      It DOES sound like a skeletal thing. The hip bone is called the “pelvis,” so one would assume that’s what the focus is.

      Something I’ve noticed, at least in this country, is that there’s a heavy tendancy to try to redirect a problem & use the enemy’s momentum against them. It’s to the point where someone gets dependant on assistance from an assailant, or at least on the help of a benefactor.

      There’s so many tricks that get used (coercion, deception, disparaging remarks about being immature or crazy, etc…). Ambushes are in keeping with that. So is rushing someone around so there’s no time for thought or space for refusal. Comportment is another big one (“do this, then do this, then do this”). I guess that would have a pressuring effect.

      I have another question: Why would being naked add to this pressure? I’d think it would add to things in the opposite direction.

  5. Donna says:

    The article above by the male doctor is very revealing. You may want to read another article – more factual and less emotional – about male gynecologists at http://www.modestyxxx.com. It is entitled “Gentlemen Don’t Look Up Ladies’ Skirts.” The author quotes documents from the AMA and the British equivalent which say that male doctors who experience erotic feelings during a pelvic exam are “neither unusual or abnormal.” It is an amazing article. Well researched and well written.

    • Mario says:

      Woman are not the only victims here as horrible as this is for most of them. Try and imagine how infuriating this is for the boyfriends and husbands. We are hard-wired with this deep-seated, protective instinct, and we are allowing another man to perform this horribly, intimate, sexual exam on the woman we Love. Makes me nauseous. And for what? a less than 99% lifetime risk, even lower if your a young to middle-aged woman?
      This has got to be the biggest medical sham ever conceived. That, along with the pap and pelvic having no sexual connotation for the male doctor. Really? Its just like them to think they are mentally superior.

  6. Anonymous says:

    I would imagine there are doctors of both genders who may be personally uncomfortable examining unattractive or obese patients. We are a shallow biased society and there are no guarantees that personal maturity comes with a medical degree. The tragedy is that someone could end up dying or with cancer because of it. If someone wants to play fantasy doctor they can do it on their own time. If someone is fat – get over it. They still need competent medical care and are not as modest as presumed.

    • Karen says:

      Again implying that the result of sexism would be someone would get cancer because doctors don’t “care” about them- FUCK NO! The result of sexism is present, right here, ie you implying a woman needs a doctor to take fucking care of them.

      • Alex says:

        I wonder something: If you got a bunch of hot women together to say things in support of having bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness, the different risks & inaccuracies of all kinds of procedures, and a general conflict of interest that is pervasive in the medical profession (in some countries, at least) would that be useful? I know it should be about the issues, but I think that would give it a boost.

        Throw in that “female” isn’t a type of disorder & that it’s not being stupid to think compositionally (after all, a situation is what it consists of & reality DOES apply to medical personnel) and you’re all set. At least in terms of getting a shot across- since doctors & such will probably fight back against being fought back against.

        P.S.- I also think well of cursing & general ferocity of response as a tool to counter attempts to impose these types of things. Actually, that’s a frequent trick in fights. Kind of a psych-up AND a solidifier.

        Someone might say something like “There’s no call for that” or something to the effect of that being a “verbal assault,” but one can very easily make the counter that someone was trying to “impose detriment” & you used “verbal counter-offensives” in an effort to protect yourself from this detriment.

      • nanarhonda says:

        Your response needn’t be so vile. You could have make the same response without the profanity. People could have made more sense of it then.

    • nanarhonda says:

      Excellent response! Thank you! I have felt the same way, having worked in the ER and hearing the doctors, PAs, & RNs say about people that aren’t to their standards. It is shameful.

  7. Zenee Miller says:

    Wish I hadn’t read this but knowledge is power! I dropped my male gyn over a decade ago after realizing several things were not quite right. This article only reinforces my decision.

  8. lmc says:

    There is so much scary information out there, but thankfully there are webistes like this one to educate women and advise them of their rights. This article is very scary, and just shows how the medical community gets away with abuse of women.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920649/

    • Alex says:

      Holy Shit! This is them torturing women and none of these people did anything to physically stop any of this! I swear to Christ & I don’t know how this is going to come off, but I wanted to do the exact same things to these people that they did to the pregnant women the whole time I was reading that & kill them afterward. They shouldn’t be around to cause further harm & I’m sure their replacements would act very differently.

      It occurs to me that an accusation is just an invitation for someone to let their “shields” down or to implode in on themselves. An ATTACK, however- that would be useful. It would put some “teeth in the night,” so-to-speak. The method is always attack, whether or not the goal is defence.

      This culture is self-replicating, so there’s no reason to believe that they’ll initiate a change of behavior. This is what they are when they are left to their own devices, so if they were different I figure they’d act different. This isn’t a model of how people in general are if they’re free, this is just how they are. I truly do believe that these people are either possessed or just innately evil!

      One big question for all of you: If this is how they are toward the mother, what kind of safe environment does someone think is there for the baby? What affects her generally affects her baby, anyway- but I’d figure if this is a pretty severe warning sign of untrustability. Whether through antagonism or incompetance, they cause problems. These problems don’t magically go away because you get billed for them. As far as making decisions & she can make whatever decisions she wants, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll actually happen. Something might get directly imposed on her, no manipulation or subtlety at all.

    • Anonymous says:

      The article is called “………fifty years later” . Why? Most od the stories from nurses and doulas are from around 2009 not decades ago. Birth as a rape experience. Not good.

      Women are told that they can choose their birth experience now. Only I have heard it is very difficult to book with a midwife. Only first come as soon as positive home pregnancy test if you do not call right away likely they are booked up. Any, just any complication and they are sent to an obstetrician. The choice is supposed to have some family physician delivering but most do not do that because of the time commitment and the insurance costs. So the “choice” that health Ontario boasts about is bogus.

      I have heard enough about women being induced just to be a convenience, no medical reason. I believe this is damaging toa child’s soul because they pick what day they should be born.

      • Schwerin says:

        I agree with whoever said that it has “soul-damaging”to a little persons soul being induced before their time. Let nature do its thing. And lets get rid of the troll. This is a woman’s forum, trolling doctors worried about woman finding out about their shame are not welcome here. Period. Go push a prostate exam; their fare more common than the cervical/ovarian ca that you push with your vagina exam! oops, pelvic exam, sorry, lets keep masqueing whats really happening here shall we. Pigs.

      • Alex says:

        Schwerin: I know what the name of the site is, but sometimes there are male posters that are saying “Hey, they’re trying to back my girlfriend into all kinds of probing so she can get birth control pills- how do we get them without all this?” or just simply complaining about them trying to get dictatorial with his wife. Sometimes it would even be wives mentioning them trying to push their husbands into things! It is less common for this sort of thing to be directed against men, though.

      • nanarhonda says:

        There are more inductions now than ever before and it is soley to schedule the births. It is so wrong. What every happened to natural child birth? I had it… albeit mine both came way too early and they didn’t give mothers anything for pain back then. God forbid! My daughter has wanted to have her children born at home with a midwife but she cannot because she needs rhogam and the midwife cannot give it only a physician can. But she has given birth to 8 beautiful babies with one in the arms of Jesus. Home schooling 7 is keeping her busy!

  9. Chris W. says:

    This article was entirely fabricated, no facts listed, all opinion based, and no clear identification of the author. From the sentence structure, word frequency, and repetition that are used. It’s a safe bet the writer was a women to begin with. I mean lest be honest, there is not a lot of reason to hide who you unless your full of crap. The medical profession isn’t known for back balling someone who questions it’s practices, ergo this is total bs.

    Chris W.

    • Kleigh US says:

      Chris go tell that to all the woman this has happen to like my grandmother.

    • Karen says:

      “It’s a safe bet the writer was a women to begin with.” .. Sue, I think we have a troll here, can you help?

      • Karen, I agree but the odd attack from random trolls provides opportunity to pull out the stops and post some of the facts. And medical-oriented trolls who post here enter a level playing field – unlike the medical environment where female patients are most often in a ‘one-down’ position. I agree with IMC that the article was scary, but also brilliant, well researched, and beautifully written. I follow a blogger who posts some great but disturbing articles about birth, like this one about a woman who was forced to have a cesarean: http://humanwithuterus.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/vbac-vs-forced-cesarean-facts-opinion-and-informed-consent/

        Karen, I should have added that I don’t think any women here need help from troll attacks. Other way around in fact, I usually feel a bit sorry for the poor troll who is unfortunate enough to land here! Although if it’s an attack on women, offensive or just plain creepy then it’s good to just delete. I don’t think the last comment from the suspected troll falls into that category but what do you think?

      • Karen says:

        Sue, I hope I did not sound patronising. What I’ve meant, is just that petty sexism like the sentence I quoted from the poster does not bring the debate forward. Calling out someone on their gender like that should not be part of any civilised discussion.

      • Karen I certainly didn’t think you were being patronizing! As moderator I try to keep this a woman friendly site while still allowing for healthy debate, but every so often something not so woman friendly slips through! I’ll try to be more vigilant in future.

  10. Kleigh says:

    It happend to my family member back in the erly 60s. She was tied to a hospital bad so she could not get up and use the bath room. And the nurse held her legs shut so she could not push her baby out till the doctor got to the room. The head was already comming out and she was screeming in pain. When i told her what happen to her was wrong and i didnt understand why she didnt sue or press charges. She made it seem like woman trusted there doctorsd back then and alot of woman back thin were scared to question authority figuers or ones they thought were and she was and is very trusting twards doctors. she also said the doctor cut her open down there and she fainted from the pain because they didnt numb her and that ahole doctor didnt feel he needed to ask her permistion to do any thing. It made my blood boil. No wonder they didnt let husbands in when there wifes were birthing they whould probly attack the doctor for mistreatment.

    • Alex says:

      Chris W.: Just out of curiosity, what do you consider hard evidence? Ultimately, all evidence is anecdotal. Also, medical communities mose certainly do black-ball people for various things, it’s just usually for something that happens or doesn’t happen in the office. It doesn’t have to be KNOWN for doing these things in order to actually do them.

      Kleigh: Why don’t they attack the doctor now? I’ve noticed a less confrontational male these days, at least in America. That “tend & befriend” pattern of response might not be 100% when it comes to women, but it really is the typical manner of response with men & women in America currently. I mentioned this before: how it’s recruitment as a method of recourse & that’s more or less it.

      I also don’t get why people say “in any other situation/setting/context this WOULD be sexual assault (or any other type of attack).” Instead of trying to point out that there’s frequently a contradiction between description & situation, they should just call it for what it is.

      There’s even a Chinese proverb that goes “Wisdom begins with calling things by their correct names.” I guess because I don’t know who said that it’s not true, though- eh, Chris W?

  11. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    There is a website called birth trauma, the stuff of nightmares.
    These accounts are sadly, fairly common and there is no doubt in my mind this sort of experience still awaits some laboring women, how many? I have no idea.
    I think for a long time these accounts were dismissed, “you’ve got a healthy baby, haven’t you?”…hardly the point when the mother ends up with PTSD, depression etc.
    This is the UK chapter, I think there is a branch in a few countries, including Canada.

    http://www.birthtraumaassociation.org.uk/default.asp

    • Elizabeth I suspect those sorts of experiences sadly await many more women. It seems to be similar to the pap experience, where many women have no idea that their own experiences of being coerced into pap tests in dr’s offices are similar to many other women’s experiences. Many women probably think their own bad birthing experience is rare, at least until they do a web search and discover they are far from being alone. Here’s another disturbing article. It’s about a woman who dies following a cesarean: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-150001/Stressed-mother-died-Caesarean.html I wonder how many women die as a result of cesarean. It doesn’t make it clear in the article if the woman had wanted a cesarean or if it was pushed on her, but given she was terrified of needles it might have been the latter. It is interesting that the inquest had been told the woman had “died of acute cardiac failure with unknown cause”.

  12. Alex says:

    Isn’t all this the type of shit heroes in the stories would kill? There was some kind of monster or evil king or some such & they’d be slain on sight, much to the delight of the people. Sometimes the general people killed the creature themselves! This really is the type of shit that people would be convinced that someone was demonically possessed for & maybe that wasn’t a miscalculation.

    I mean this literally, but even if someone isn’t actually possessed by a demon the effect is still maintained. If they’re just like that with no paranormal situations attached, what’s the difference?

    Another thing is that it’s particularly telling is to apply all this to CHILDBIRTH. I know I’ve mentioned there being a general antagonistism to life in allopathic medicine from the start, but I figure it bears repeating. Particularly with the American kind, since pretty much anything that comes down the pipes basically attacks you!

  13. Simon says:

    I am a doctor this is crazy. One Drs perspective does not account for the majority. There are many pelvics performed for fear of being sued later (well no one did an exam so it’s his/her fault) or b/c you might have missed something (the swollen joint is due to gonorrhea that is spread via the blood). You see so many peoples penises and vaginas that it becomes normal to the point sexual desire can be affected with partners. One thing is true, I would rather do an exam on people who have hygiene. I have also diagnosed things I didn’t expect (retained objects causing blood infection for example). Most of us avoid pelvics b/c we know patients feel uncomfortable and it makes an exam much longer (there is no time to do an appropriate work up anymore and the pressure of time is huge). There are freaks, they exist everywhere, Use your instincts. Just believe me this perspective is not the norm.

    • Alex says:

      Doctors doing these things on their own accord is not right. That is iatrogenic abuse, regardless of if the doctor feels okay with it or not. Fear of a baseless lawsuit is not an excuse for this kind of behavior. There IS a risk of being sued for something baselessly, it’s part of the territory. What is the idea? They they’re imposing penetration on someone in self-defense? The safety of the assailant, whether they use low-key methods or not, is irrelevant.

      They were not prompted & do not usually give full disclosure about risks, inaccuracies, or alternatives (including self-performing). This is fraud & since deception vitiates consent, an assault as well. There’s also usually no mention of incentive payments for this or for any follow-ups that could be precipitated by the “results.” No mention of it being illegal to withhold birth control for not getting probed, either.

      By-the-way: Are doctors NOT selected, trained, and certified? So the common trends of this community, both officially & unofficially, can be presumed to be related to that or to pre-existing alignment. They don’t seem to band together against someone that tends toward dictatorial behavior with someone else’s body. Seems that the staff just sides with whoever can fire them- or get them fired through channels.

    • ADM (Canada) says:

      What about being sued because you didn’t get full informed consent from the woman regarding the fact that, as new research has shown, the exam is basically useless and is not good for diagnosing uterine or ovarian cancer. Many women have been lied to and coerced into pelvic exams because of lies about the necessity of the exam and to obtain the birth control pill.
      If there is concern about STIs that can be done via blood work or urine.
      It’s not about you and how many people’s private parts you see in a day. It’s about the woman and her level of comfort and the right to refuse an exam without fear of reprisal.
      It’s interesting how the fear of being sued is always brought up with women’s health care but with other things such as refusing the taking of blood pressure or getting a flu shot Dr’s don’t worry about that. Yet refusal of either one of those things could be life threatening.
      As we on the board have said it’s not about women’s health care.

    • Eddie says:

      Seriously? You are trying to explain performing a pelvic (a degrading and humiliating exam) on a woman with a swollen joint because she might have gonorrhea? gee…are there other much less invasive tests for this if you REALLY think the swollen joint might be from gonorrhea…one wonders if part of this equation used by male docsa includes how good the subject looks…because of course it makes sense that sexy ladies are more likely…

    • Karen says:

      #NotAllDoctors

      • Jorden says:

        oh, looks like the “good” doctor is worried that his dirty
        little perk has its days numbered!
        Nope, they will vehemently resist forward thinking &
        research, keep the cost of medical care high and will
        opt out-of informed consent, self-testing education,
        blood/urine tests for STD’s, ultrasound etc. and
        continue to withhold birth control if the patient
        resists the stirrups/bi-manual, breast exams
        even though by doing so they will continue
        to break the law.
        Shame on you doctor simon…burst on here
        will ya, preach that you don’t even notice the
        attractive women in the stirrups. You have
        pushed your power trip’n bullshit in the wrong
        forum this time my friend. We know
        you enjoy the young and/or attractive women
        before your eyes. Give it up already will ya.
        The doctor in this study is the real man
        who has admitted what is really going on here
        in the minds of most male doctors. Heres a thought, defer
        the intimate exam to same sex providers? Its the
        wave of the future maybe its time to get on board.

      • Alex says:

        Karen: What does #NotAllDoctors mean?

    • nanarhonda says:

      Thank you for say this, Dr. I appreciate that.

  14. Alex says:

    Good catch, Eddie. Blood & urine tests work for STDs & they frequently con women into other tests, figuring that it’ll sound good because it’s a related theme.

    ADM- The supposed concern about being sued brings up an idea: Maybe it’s something they realize is wrong, so it instantly connects to the idea of lawsuits & court, and then they decide to flip it into a defense- that way someone will think “Oh, well if they’d get sued for NOT doing something, how am I going to bring up charges FOR doing these things?” Saying “No, don’t sue me!” or “You can’t sue for that” sounds a little too much like “never mind that man behind the curtain.” Trying to get behind whatever they’re worried about coming at them. Sometimes the simple shit is a subtle tactic because it’s unexpected.

    It would also sound like one would be arguing against a self-defense urge (usually not effective) & like they’re the “bad guy” for pushing that situation on these people. It also comes off like there’s some mysterious “bad-guy” somewhere in the shadows causing this to happen to them- maybe even like there’s some kind of common ground between them & the doctor (like they’re both victims in this situation & there’s some kind of bond between them).

    It also reminds me of how child molestors tell the kids that they’ll get in trouble if they tell anyone. I guess there’s a running theme or betrayed trust & molestation. Isn’t it suprising that if someone “plays doctor” on a child, they get into shit- but when someone imposes these same actions on someone & gets a paycheck for it, it’s (at least sometimes) seen as innocent?

    • ADM (Canada) says:

      It really is a defense mechanism to protect the program of the well woman’s exam. If they were so afraid of being sued than we wouldn’t have a choice about anything. We wouldn’t be able to decline any test or treatment. We have the right to informed refusal and people decline treatment for cancer and choose to die or they choose to not take a medication and Dr’s accept that but when the topic of testing for female specific cancers comes up the line of fear of being sued is said. Dr’s manage to chart refusal for other tests and treatments but if it was such a concern then have us sign a waiver. It’s a cover for not getting full informed consent which for someone reason never enters their head that they can be sued for that. It is to protect the programs and incentive payments.

    • Eddie says:

      The “we see so many” argument is hogwash as well. I happen to see a lot of air conditioning equipment, because that is what I do, I service this equipment. Each unit is separate and distinct…and it’s not even a living breathing entity.In fact after servicing many units that are in terrible condition I especially appreciate the nice new shiny equipment I run across. Something human in me tells me that seeing an especially attractive, nice smelling soft speaking and demure ladies genitals up close and personal for as long as I choose to would be very stimulating, it might make be be very gentle, very patient, very kind, very deliberate and quite thorough. Unless of course I somehow possessed some form of super human abilities. All through this procedure, knowing I would love to do it again, I’m certain I would act quite professional.

  15. Worked for a male OB/GYN for years, I could have told women this! I prefer female docs…

  16. Luanne, I have deleted all comments as requested. The way comments work on this site:
    If you are a first time commenter your comment will be kept for moderation until it is read and approved for posting. If you have provided an email when you comment, and if your comment is approved, then all further comments are automatically posted by WordPress. If an IP address is marked as spam by WordPress, or if the commenter makes an error in typing their email – then the comment will be held for moderation again. If there is no email address then the comment will always be held for moderation.
    It is not possible for the author of a comment to edit a comment after it has been posted, but if you want a comment edited you could let me know and I would be happy to edit it for you.
    Sue

  17. Reblogged this on A Holistic Journey and commented:
    This is for both men and women. On how some male doctors can’t keep their maleness outside the exam room when they’re with a female patient.

    • I appreciate the follow and active support. =) I wanted to get the alert out on this important post. My husband read it and I also shared it with a megablogger (OM, if you’re familiar). I’m glad to have connected. =)

      • Thank you Holistic Wayfarer! I was delighted to see the substantial increase in ‘likes’ following your reblog – yours is an influential force! I appreciate your support and advocacy about this important topic. I’m very glad to have connected as well.
        Cheers,
        Sue :)

      • I’m happy to have supported you, Sue, and my Stats said you got a lot of views.

        Xxx
        HW

  18. The thing in that photo looks like a Medieval torture instrument. Are such contraptions really used on sensitive parts of a person’s body, without anaesthetic? You need to do another article on the well-known research on private conversations doctors have about painful medical procedures, during which more than half of them have made utterances suggestive of sadism..

  19. nanarhonda says:

    I haven’t had a pap smear since the days I was trying to get pregnant (after two pregnancies). I had been misdiagnosed years ago and had scar tissue completely blocking my tubes and they were not even in the correct place. This was a woman doctor. She said before surgery 0% chance of pregnancy. I had surgery. After surgery 50% chance. Never conceived. Never went for another pap as my feet had been in enough stirrups, I also have never had a mammogram. I am now 50 and post menopausal ~ a wonderful gift for my 50th birthday! I will never go for either test. Ever.

    • Tracy Ann says:

      I don’t blame you. I found this site because my doctor’s office (today) suggested via a form that I get a pap smear because I’m “past due” for one. How do you handle doctors or nurses shaking their head at you for not having these exams done?

      • nanarhonda says:

        I tell them, no holds barred, that I know where to find them if I want to have one of them done. Don’t call me, I’ll call you. Naturally, they call anyway or if I’m in for a blood draw off my port, they (the MA) will start to ask and I say, save your breath, the answer is no, and the RN says to the MA see, I told you she would say that! But we have to ask. :-)

        When I get the phone calls from the hospital staff saying that I haven’t made my appointment for my mammogram, I say that’s because I’m not having one. No, you may not set up an appointment with me now or ever, thank you anyway. :-)

        Its not that hard… you just have to be your own advocate. Remember, its your body and you can choose how its invaded or not. I prefer not to put my feet in stirrups any longer and now I’m overweight and have an indwelling foley so I highly doubt there will be any fantasizing going on there. And let’s not forget that there are women that are homosexuals in the business. So you need to go where you feel comfortable regardless of the gender of the physician.

        I have no family history of breast cancer or uterine cancer so why go through all the ubbubb about it? It I were concerned, I would seek a doctor for that. I’m not, so I don’t. I have plenty of other health issues to be concerned with that my “ta tas” as they put it.

        Hope that helps, Tracy Ann!

        Blessings,
        Rhonda aka nanarhonda

  20. shazza91321 says:

    Oh my goodness!!! I can’t even believe what I just read!!! No wonder the few times I’ve had pap smears from 2 different male doctors I felt awkward and creepy afterward. One doctor was in his mid 70’s and semi retired but was standing in for another doctor that was on vacation, and another doctor was in his mid 40’s and just seemed like he was attracted to me before the exam started. The older doctor gave me a lecture after the exam about my sexual history that I had to fill out before the exam. He said I was too young to not be more sexually active!!! As if that was any of his business. His nurse apologized to me after the exam and told me to call and complain about him. The younger doctor, said I should come back in 6 months for another exam, but I never went back to him eek!!!! And, I don’t think I’m all that attractive or anything like that but it’s just really sickening to think that they want to see your privates again and again. WOW!!!! Thank goodness for female nurses having to be in the room.

    • Alex says:

      Those nurses are usually there to back up the doctor. The STATED purpose is otherwise, but functionally they tend to paint whatever picture makes the doctor look good & add “from a woman” weight to things. A woman might be more likely to think another woman would have solidarity or whatever with her, but that can very easily not be the case.

      Something to keep in mind: Arousal can absolutely play a role in these things & that applies to people of the same sex as well as those of a different one. There’s no reason that a woman can’t be an aggressive lesbian or bisexual & some people just have a taste for compulsion. Some people have warped tastes (like someone getting turned on by lying or stealing or setting things on fire) & there’s other forms of gratification, anyway.

      Gratification’s only an accentuating factor, anyway. After all, a woman can run another woman over with her car- it’s still an attack, whether she gets any gratification out of it at all. Whether something HAPPENS or not is the determinating one.

      • Nobody says:

        Women need to stop thinking they are “safe” by having intimate exams done by another woman. That is bullshit. I was stalked by a lesbian radiologist who I was sent to several times for breast ultrasounds and a breast biopsy. I still remember how uncomfortable it made me feel when her eyeballs nearly fell out of her head when she saw my large breasts. She questioned me about a lot of personal things, and stupid me was too naive and just thought she was making small talk to pass the time or make me less nervous. A week after my biopsy, which she botched by the way, she showed up at the church I was attending (which she had asked me about because she saw I was wearing a religious necklace) and she tried to get a date with me. I went to a different radiology office for tests after that for several years till damn it she shows up working for this other office and gets to do my thyroid scan. Thank God it was just my thyroid and nothing more intimate. The disgusting part is she walks into the room and says real breathy “Hi, remember me?”. Is that not creepy? It had been maybe 5 years since the breast exams she had done. Why would I remember her? Well except for the fact she shows up at my church and tried to get a date with me. Months after that I go to another radiology office for another breast ultrasound because a nodule shows up in breast when I had a lung CT scan. Well a different girl does that breast ultrasound, she seems real feminine and would have thought she was straight. She kept quizzing me about where I work etc and I said I had just been laid off and was losing medical insurance soon. She claimed she felt so sorry for me and after the exam after being given only a washcloth to cover my breasts she insists I should give her a hug so I will feel better. What the heck?

        As if all that wasn’t enough more recently I had a heart test done and the nurse instead of just asking me to move my breast over she grabs hold of my nipple pinching it hard and flops my breast out of the way. Ok women medical personnel are not any safer or nicer than males, so don’t fool yourself into thinking nothing can happen if you are examined by a female.

  21. I am due to book a smear test so was really keen to read this. Very useful points and again, I have never had this done by a male doctor. I am lucky in that regard. I did have some test done in Lagos once by a male doc, there were two nurses in the exam room with him, this also was a bit over the top as just one nurse would have been just fine.

    I wonder if men have the same experience with female docs?

  22. Beth says:

    Many years ago a friend recommended I read a book called, HOW DOCTORS MANIPULATE WOMEN, by a doctor named Mendelson, if I remember correctly. I am sure the title is correct, but I have not been able to find a copy of that book myself. Has anyone here heard of it?

    Some women want to believe they need these exams yearly, but they should think of how x-rays can also cause cancer. Consider whether anyone really should go that route.

  23. Elizabeth (Aust) says:

    Hi Beth
    Found the book on Amazon. Sounds like an interesting read, although I think most of us could have written the book!

    • Beth says:

      Elizabeth, what a sweetie you are! Yes, that is the book that was recommended to me, but of course doctors in general are supposed to have such sterling reputations that laymen will not believe it if you tell them they don’t. I have a son-in-law who is an MD and a daughter and granddaughter who are RNs, so the medical profession is not unfamiliar to me. But I have also lived long enough to have grown skeptical of some practices. I know one army doctor OBGYN deliberately caused me to have a miscarriage when I went for a second trimester exam because, as *he* said, “There are enough brats in the world.” I am not a fighter, so I did not press charges. Eleven years later, I finally adopted a son and gave birth to a precious baby daughter within the same year. ;-)

      Thanks again for searching this for me. I may learn more here than I would by reading the book, but I will be happy to have it anyway–just to pass on to others.

      • Alex says:

        Wait, you were in the army & he decided to give you a miscarriage? Holy shit! I’m sure some guy in prison would have ridden him repeatedly for that! He just went “There are enough brats in the world” and gave you a miscarriage?

        I’ve got to ask: Does the army try to manage the pregnancy of the soldiers?

        I’ve heard that they force internal exams on women (I don’t know if there’s any wrestling or fighting if they refuse, but mandates ARE an outside orchestration). It’s kind of a question mark if there’s legal support or if it’s just one of those things that they try to enforce an impression on.

  24. darren says:

    I have recently become obsessed ans stressed about my gf having a pelvic from a male doc. Turns out a nurse just did a pap. (uk btw) but the intimacy of a.pelvic bothers me a lot and she just says its a doctor it means nothing. But no man but me should do those things to her. Its just wrong and she won’t be convinced otherwise. She is having her arm implant out soon as it runs out this year and going on the pill. I dont want some doc shoving his hand up there and i feel worried and ammoyed that these tests could be done. Ji

    • Cat&Mouse says:

      Dear Simon from 7/3/14. Get over your denial and accept the truth that so many women here are saying. A man who performs pelvics all day and cannot get aroused? Sure–if he has prostatitis from being overly aroused over and over again and doesn’t have the time to “relieve” all the back pressure. Basically he’s “clogged” and stops functioning b/c his prostate can’t hold any more. Gross and true. This is a man’s instinct. Get erect and spread seed when seeing a vagina.

      And what’s described about “gonorrhea spreading bacteria to joints…” is also true. In very advanced cases this can happen. And if so, then there’s gonna be so many symptoms any doctor would have to perform a full physical, sent many vials of blood to the lab, and eventually question whether the cause is the vagina.

      However, what in reality happens is this. A woman I know was “pelvic’ed” by one particular every time she was sick, so much that she stopped going to him for treatments. A doctor who wants to get a woman helpless onto the “rack” so he can feast his eyes and play/invade her as much as possible w/o getting sued or being accused of cheating will think, and do exactly as you say.

      He’ll claim any infection, from a tooth abscess to a common cold, could “possibly” be originating from a vaginal infection and it has “to be ruled out.” Or else no other treatment. Yes, we call it being bullied. A loud male in authority telling us it’s either his way or no way. And he gets his way. Then at the end, he makes the usual stupid statement of “well I really didn’t think but “WE” had to be sure…and it’s my duty as your doctor and you pay me for that…and now you can rest easy. But you need to come back in four months for your usual pap so we can continue with this and make sure it isn’t your vagina causing things…I possibly saved your life today…because we “ruled out your vagina,” once the labs come back confirming that you’ll be on the right antibiotic…but if you get a suspected yeast infection…come back so I can “make sure” b/c otherwise I’ll get in trouble…” As for me, it was my husband who put this misery to an end by years ago saying “NO” for me. Thanks to him and this site, I’m educated and speak for myself.

      The thrill goes away when hubby or boyfriend is present and watching the male or female doctor.

      Darren, talk to your gf. Make sure you are with her, and get her permission in writing that it’s ok for you to speak up during the exam. Have her say where she wants you to sit, whether it’s by her side holding her hand or behind the doctor so, per her saying so, you can learn and become more of her partner in healthcare. If the doctor is against this, or is bossy or make s the scene uncomfortable, or the nurse tries to herd you away, your gf MUST complain immediately or it will appear you are the cause of concern and your gf is ok with the clinic rules and her “quiet” non-participation is a hint she wants you gone. Staff picks up on things like this.

      You should be there. Ask questions, she is your partner and vice-versa. This will be either very bonding or a hint your relationship is going to end. If you can’t get past the doctor office w/o problems then kids, marriage, owning property together won’t happen. Make sure she also reads things here, and understands she is the boss, and you are more important than any doctor who is in fact working for her and should be taking her orders. If the doctor isn’t personally invested, then he/she should have no problem letting her decide where you should be and participating. Also make sure she knows how likely she can have a false positive between 20-30 and end up having her cervix amputated by a LEEP or LLETZ in UK. “Moo” is spot-on with what she says on this–go to http://www.forwomenseyesonly.com and look at the pictures she posted last week.

      Also, it’s normal for us women to experience clitoral engorgement during these exams. We may not even know it’s happening. Or we can become wet. This is our body responding, as your own does during a prostate exam. Not at all fun. Doctors can take advantage of us as much as it can also happen to men. You can watch YouTube to see what else happens during these useless so-called exams. Hope and pray everything is ok.

      • darren says:

        I trried to talk to her about it when she was booked for her pap. She just said its a doctor its fine and doesnt mean any thing. But it does to me. The thought of a man peeforming a pelvic bother me. A lot. I have seen videos and its horrible. I tried to talk to her about it and dismissed my concerns as me being weird about it. What to do?

  25. Cat&Mouse says:

    Dr Simon. Come clean. Tell us exactly how many times you’ve treated advanced gonorrhea that has spread to a joint. Versus your thought that it might be interesting to perform a pelvic on a woman on less than definitive symptoms. Have you ever enjoyed, no let me say experienced an erection or even ejaculated during an exam? Ever not be able to control smiling during an exam? Are you more likely to perform a pelvic on a young attractive women than an older women with six kids who has a positive history of vaginal problems? What about these same questions and rectal exams? Have you ever needed to masturbate during your work day?

    My husband’s best friend went through med school, and first thing he commented when visiting us was the hot shaved college babe who made $3,500 for “volunteering” and how it shocked him and the six other med students. I’ll never forget the look on his face. Or how many women go to ER’s and end up having pelvics for strange reasons. Or how all you f*** head doctors lie and say you “do what we can to protect dignity during surgery” when in fact we’re stark naked at least 15 minutes on either end of surgery, prep and clean up. Or how doctors in surgery will go and check out breast enhancements when a women is under. And I know female nurses and female doctors are no better because my family has them…and when drunk they talk in detail… None of you have an answer when confronted factually about the pap scrape being unnecessary as we’re shedding dermal cells 24/7 into our mucus. And that you can’t feel anything during a bimanual.

    You lying SOB!! Try that for a perspective… Hope one day you get caught on your lies.

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