354 comments

1. I’m so happy for this website. I have had abnormal then normal paps for the last two years. Two paps ago was normal, this last one abnormal. I was called into the dr’s office for her to tell me to go get a colposcopy. Luckily I had been reading a lot about it before I went to see her. I came armed with questions … surprisingly..she couldn’t answer them. She was surprised that I even questioned the procedure. I’m 44, I am HPV positive with an ASCUS result on my pap. I said I would like to wait 6 mos and come back for a pap to see if my body cleared itself of the infection. She was shocked and said that’s not normal medical practice and that I should get the colposcopy. When I asked the questions she said I should ask the people at the colposcopy clinic and seemed offended that I even questioned it.
   Well the lady from the colposcopy clinic called to tell me when my appt was and I said to her that I had some questions first. She then said that if I didn’t show up at this appt they would only book me 2 more times then they wouldn’t allow me to come to their clinic at all! Really?? wow!
   She said I would be able to ask the nurse questions before the procedure. I said I would like to wait 6 months (Aug 6 would be 6 months from my last pap) and get another pap done to see if it returns to normal. She asked me if I was willing to take the risk that it could turn to a high grade lesion…which is such a crappy thing to say. So of course, scared…I said fine, I’ll come to the appt..when is it. JULY 21 – seriously!!! it’s not for another 5 months anyway!!!
   What if I was really scared about this? She has filled me with panic and worry for such a low risk cancer. I am just shocked at this. The way I was treated and talked to it makes me feel stupid .. and trust me..I’m not stupid.
   Thank you for this website. I haven’t made a decision about if I’ll go in for a pap again or not. But at least I am more informed and I will continue to read and research this.
   Thank you thank you thank you to the women who have spent so much time researching this….

   Reply
   • Dear original poster. Hope you are ok

     A few points about this situation make me really angry. First ASCUS is not a big deal only that you are over the “magical” age of 35 on the protocol. Second, asking for a retest pap after six months is not unreasonable. Third, they MAKE the appointment for colposcopy and you HAVE to show up or you are banned. So if a women did have a serious problem she is supposed to drive 200 milesor farther to the nearest clinic? Ridiculous and then you have to wait 5 months, your case is definitely not a priority. Forth, maybe get a speculum, some vinegar and some iodine and look at your own cervix. See for yourself. Fifth, if you are HPV positive then some tests show either high or low risk strains. You could be infected with a low risk strain. Sixth, if you go to a colposcopy do not sign a consent form if you do not want biopsies or immediate treatment sometimes pushed on women. If you are only ASCUS then then they do not see anything visually they will push for biopsies because “the lesion could be farther up the cervical canal”. The transformation zone moves up the cervical canal from the OS as women age. If they cannot see it then they are going to want to a CC biopsy. So just be prepared for a biopsy because some women want to take some pain relief before or just know what is going to happen. Ask what procedures they are going to do before you go. Be firm with your decision. It’s your body.

     I know one women you said the colposcopy appointment was just made for her. They kept calling and calling. She did not want to go. A friend told her to say that she was going out of the country on a important family matter and she did not know when she was coming back.

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2. Marnie, So pleased you found us and yes, don’t let them bully you into a colposcopy, which almost always means a biopsy as well and may lead to a “treatment”. I use the inverted commas because almost all treatment of the cervix amounts to over-treatment.
   The threat it might leap somehow to a high grade lesion is pure ignorance, cervical cancer takes a long time to progress from a low grade lesion to high grade and of course, almost all low grade lesions amount to nothing. Even CIN 3 regresses or does not progress in most cases, some studies say only 12% progresses, others say 20% or 30%.

   You don’t even have a low grade lesion, ASCUS is “Atypical squamous cells of undetermined significance (ASCUS)”. The poor cervix is subjected to such scrutiny every tiny thing is “dysplasia” or ASCUS. I know Dr Gilbert Welch says that ASCUS is his favourite non-cancer term.
   It’s all a bit absurd and, IMO, more about medical profits. I don’t think any other body part is subject to the same level of scrutiny. In other words, ASCUS is nothing to worry about, it’s not going to leap anywhere.

   The best program in the world for those women who wish to test is, IMO, found in the Netherlands, they’ll ONLY offer a 5 yearly pap test to the roughly 5% of women aged 30 to 60 who test HPV+ (and you can test yourself, no need for a speculum exam) Having too many pap tests means a false positive is more likely, so even HPV+ women need to avoid over-screening.

   So I think you’re wise to do your research and take your time, too many women face unnecessary and potentially harmful biopsies and “treatments”.
   Understand the risk as well: 0.65% is the lifetime risk of cc, yet here in Australia, and the States would be similar or even higher, 77% is the lifetime risk of colposcopy/biopsy. HUGE over-detection and over-treatment to cover a remote risk. There are FAR better ways of dealing with this rare cancer.
   You say you’re HPV+, but it’s a good idea to check your HPV status every few years, most women clear the virus in a year or two and then you might want to consider whether you want to have pap tests, you might prefer to simply check your HPV status now and then. (as per the Dutch program) I’ve had women say I’m HPV+…many assume HPV+ = always HPV+, not true, most women will clear the virus within a year or two. So most women find on re-testing they are HPV-
   So only 5% of women aged 30 to 60 are HPV+ (and we shouldn’t be pap or HPV testing those under 30) so 95% of women aged 30 to 60 cannot be helped by pap testing. (but can be harmed)
   That is the level of unnecessary testing – burning down a forest to find a few twigs.

   Women who are HPV- and no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous might choose to stop all further testing.
   So many women end up on the abnormal pap test merry-go-round of worry, re-testing and treatments, almost all of it is unnecessary. (and avoidable)
   IMO, following the evidence and making informed decisions is the best way to protect our life, health and peace of mind.
   Welcome…keep us posted.

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3. Thank you so much Elizabeth (it’s Marnie here signed in with wordpress). Your words of encouragement are welcome. I am angry…so angry…because after reading everything here, clicking on every link, finding some on my own…I know that our ‘poor cervixes’ ARE over treated. And yet, the doctor and the woman at the clinic have instilled fear in me. It’s ridiculous.
   I am going to make this my cause…making women aware. There is a consumer watch reporter on our news and I’m going to see if I can get a story on this. I doubt it seeing as the medical industry has more clout than I do but …I’m angry. I want women to know.
   I’m angry for my friends who have gone through ‘procedures’ and ‘treatments’ needlessly. For all the worry that they make us go through. For treating us like it’s no big deal to go in and have our parts poked and prodded and that we should just do it ‘for our own good’.
   Thank you for your support and I will keep you posted.

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   • “I’m angry for my friends who have gone through ‘procedures’ and ‘treatments’ needlessly.”
     Interesting: before screening started few women had heard of cervical cancer, no one worried about it, and doctors were lucky if they saw one case over their entire career.
     Now every second woman has been “saved” or “treated”…there is a clue there.
     Also, thyroid cancer occurs more often than cervix cancer, compare the way the cancers are viewed? How many articles can you find on cervical cancer and how many on thyroid cancer? The most fuss in women’s healthcare is made about the rarest cancer. (and it’s not rare “because” of screening as we’re so often told, it was always rare)
     I smell a rat, well, I did decades ago…I’ve just turned 56 and have never had a pap test and never will. (and I don’t have routine pelvic, breast, rectal or recto-vaginal exams or visual inspections of the genitals or breast screening)
     Almost all routine screening exams and tests of the female body are not backed by evidence and are FAR more likely to harm us. There is no need for asymptomatic women to submit to a lifetime of medical surveillance and intervention, in fact, IMO, it’s harmful and a very unpleasant way to live.

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4. Marnie, you now join the ranks of the informed and angry. You are so right, my younger sister had a completely unnecessary cone biopsy, so many women have been harmed.
   My sister knows her cervix is damaged and wonders whether that means a prolapse is more likely in the future, will that lead to a hysterectomy? Needless to say there is VERY little research into the risks with over-treatment, no one cares and no one wants to know. There is no or little funding for anything that might put women “off” this testing.
   Most women here have no idea the program carries a *77% lifetime risk of referral or that the cancer is rare (always was and it was in natural decline before testing even started)…now that *study by Kavanagh et al goes back to 1996. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8861048)
   You’d think that study would have at least prompted further research, nope, nothing, who cares if 77% of women end up having a colposcopy and biopsy as a result of screening for a cancer with a 0.65% lifetime risk? Women don’t know so it’s safe to carry on harming women.
   You’d think there would be some respect for our right to decline given the unlikelihood of benefiting and the risks of testing, nope again. In fact, we do everything to increase risk – testing far too early, too often and for too long. Now there is something even better, (HPV self-testing) but no, we’ll stay with population pap testing, the medical profession’s cash cow. America ADDS the HPV test to pap testing which creates the most over-investigation for no additional benefit to women. (fabulous profits though…)

   Most health reporters won’t touch cervical screening, that gives you an idea of the power of those who protect this testing – what are they so afraid of, what are they protecting? The millions made from over-testing and over-treatment is what they’re protecting, they don’t give a damn about us. If they did they’d follow the evidence and respect our legal right to make an informed decision, including a NO, but honestly, how many women even realize refusing pap tests is a reasonable decision? Most don’t even consider it a choice.
   Good luck though, hope you find a receptive ear, I’ve written to all sorts of people over many years with no success.
   We only heard about over-diagnosis in breast screening last year and uncertainty of benefit, even though this has been the topic of hot debate in medical circles going back over a decade. One or two reporters and a few doctors are now warning women, the crickets are still chirping with cervical screening.
   So that’s part of the problem, women never hear anything but, “get your pap tests!” so if they hear something negative, dismiss it as the ravings of a rogue ratbag. I’ve often been called an “anti-vaxxer” on women’s health forums, even though my comments are backed by medical journal references.
   You’ve made my day, every woman who becomes informed and speaks out, helps another woman….together we’re making a difference. Some women WILL listen, they are the women we need to reach.

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5. By the way, my sister’s “abnormal” cells/pap test were probably caused by mild inflammation caused by a new brand of tampons. If women use tampons, try to avoid those containing anything that might irritate and change them regularly. Also, some condoms can irritate and lead to an “abnormal” pap test.
   In fact, inflammation, transient and harmless infections, hormonal changes, (menopause, pregnancy) trauma (childbirth, rough sex, some sex aids/toys) can all lead to “abnormal” pap tests. Many of these women end up losing some of their healthy cervix…in almost all cases that’s completely unnecessary, most of these women are not even at risk.
   In some cases there is no reason for the “abnormal” result, the test result is just plain wrong.

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6. Thank you again Elizabeth and yes as I read more I see what you are saying about tampons etc. It just fuels my anger. I’m angry because I’m scared and I really have very little reason to be scared. I am also so angered by my Dr’s ignorance and inability to answer my questions and really her shock that I even asked any questions. Furthermore, the woman at the clinic who used scare tactics to tell me not to wait and made it seem urgent that I get this colposcopy and yet booked me for 5 months from now.
   It’s really incredible how these ‘professionals’ just follow a certain policy and don’t understand when we question it. It’s insulting.
   I agree that it is a long shot that the media will do anything about it. The risk for them is too high. They will unlikely want to piss off the big money makers….

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7. I’ve been looking for statistics on cervical cancer prior to paps and I’m not having the best of luck. Because of course the argument is that the reason cc is so low is because of paps and moreso because of the ‘treatments’ such as leep, etc. Yes, my friends that have been ‘saved’ from cervical cancer early detection.
   I want to tell ALL of my friends the truth and want to back it up …. do you happen to have any good links to that information? I’m sure something has been posted on here but i’m having a tough time finding it.

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   • [Might have posted this already, but I don’t think it went throught]

     That’s a little like the argument that keeping a rock in your pocket keeps tigers from mauling you. You might very wel not get mauled by a tiger, but it’s not caused by keeping a rock in your pocket. Pretty sure that’s called “specious reasoning.”

     I know that doctors don’t seem to think anything is “hard evidence” if they don’t declare it to be true. A major conflict of interest & very crazy to think that way. Some people also see agreement as defeat, so it’s now that they’re being MADE to agree. They’ll probably clash with someone as a general response, regardless of the subject- and might not “go with” someone refusing a sitaution.

     They seem to use their certification as some kind of proof that reality doesn’t apply to them.

     Reply
   • Marnie you are asking great questions – I’ve been enjoying the dialogue between you and Elizabeth! Factual information is very difficult to find, as you’ve been discovering. As Elizabeth has said, there is virtually no research that tells us what we most want to know, because it has not been done – and if it has been done is not available to us. When statistics on cervical cancer were collected prior to the screening programs, they were calculated together with all reproductive cancers so included uterine and ovarian cancers in the stats. Also, this is pre-computer era we’re talking about, thus adding to the difficulty in tracking the stats.

     The best research (in my opinion) on the subject of cervical cancer, pre and post-screening can be found in this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7769901 Unfortunately I believe it is behind a pay wall but sometimes there are ways around this. Other references can be found in the earlier comments on this post. There was a link posted above that takes you to some statistics. Basically, cervical cancer has always been a rare cancer!

     Other sources for factual information can be found under the post “references and education and other women’s health topics” as well as the “references and education” link on the top bar.

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   • Hi Marnie, as Elizabeth said welcome to being informed and angry. Now that you know the information about how rare cervical cancer you will find yourself amazed at how much effort and coercion goes into screening for this rare cancer. Unfortunately what is behind that effort is the fact that in many places Dr’s receive incentive payments for reaching screening targets. The focus is on money and not women’s health care. The hyperbole that surrounds this cancer far exceeds it’s actual risk especially when you consider that heart disease is the number one killer of women. I have never had any Dr discuss that with me but they certainly talked about pap smears. Lung cancer, brain cancer, pancreatic, and kidney cancer are all cancers that are more common than CC but women don’t go every year to be screened for those cancers and worry about them. Mental illness is also a greater threat to health and well-being but Dr’s don’t talk about or screen for that. What has happened with CC is the popularity paradox. The pap despite not being intended for it was made into a mass routine screening test and it is inaccurate so it creates a lot of false positives. The false positives are recorded statistically which creates a perception of a greater risk and women think they had a cancer scare and tell people to get screened.
     I can’t find any statistics on CC before pap smears (as was written above it was recorded as part of gyne cancers) but I often see written that is has decreased deaths by 50%. So if (in Canada) 400 women died from CC that means before Paps that 800 women died. In Canada there are 17.2 million females you can see how rare CC was and is. As one of the articles posted on here states “a thousand women would have to be screened for 35 years to save one woman from cervical cancer” (I hope I quoted that right). When I first learned the numbers I was shocked and am still angry especially when I read about women worrying and when it is brought up in Dr’s appointments. I really do believe that medical professionals learn that women need paps and that it saves women’s lives and that is all. They don’t learn the real numbers or that there are false positives and why. Your Dr and the woman at the clinic likely didn’t know the answers to your questions. Unfortunately so many women just go along with the recommendations and don’t question. That shows how successful the propaganda has been. There have been no randomized controlled trials on the pap and if it really lowers deaths from CC. What is happening is that lower deaths rates from CC are being attributed to the pap. Correlation is not causation and outliers such as better hygiene, greater use of condoms, better nutrition, and less smoking are not being taken into consideration. I believe lung cancer has declined in incidence without a mass screening program.

     Reply
     • I meant confounding variables not outliers.

     • Thank you so much for your feedback. I am trying to tell everyone at the office everything I know…which is not a lot yet but I endeavor to become as much of an expert as I can. I have absoutely decided NOT to get a colposcopy at this time. well…in 5 and a half months. And I am upset with myself that I am …at 44…only learning to ask questions about this invasive test/procedure.
       Thanks to Elizabeth I actually watched Dr H Gilbert Welch talk on Overdiagnoses on Youtube. It was facsinating! I never would have thought that I would ever be interested in listening to a doctor yammer on for an hour and a half yet I was rivetted. For those of you who haven’t watched … here is the link

       It also helped me decide to never get a mammogram either.
       I am loving getting feedback and having dialogue with intelligent women about this so please keep it coming…. thank you again

     • If you’re interested Gilbert Welch has written books on cancer screening. There are three, OverDiagnosed, Should I be Tested for Cancer Maybe Not and Here’s Why, Seeking Sickness: Medical Screening and the Misguided Hunt for Disease. I haven’t read the last one.

     • I actually attended a conference on evidence based medicine in Oxford last year and I can tell you I was riveted for two whole days. I was also, in awe of the amazing people who’ve taken on the system, rare individuals, and some have been punished harshly for their failure to play the game and keep women ignorant and compliant.
       Yes, the Raffle et al study is a good one and the summation, 1000 women must screen regularly for 35 years to save one woman. It’s shocking, we waste millions focusing on a rare cancer while other areas of medicine struggle for funding.

       I’ll pull together the best references for you, sadly, some of the good ones are locked behind pay walls, can’t be too careful, don’t want ordinary women looking at the evidence.
       I’ve found most doctors, nurses etc. have just accepted the screening story or just feel it’s safer for them to push screening, or they put incentives ahead of informed consent or consent itself…the harms of screening have always been dismissed as minor, without mentioning them to us, so the view is cc is a serious matter, biopsies etc. are not life threatening, so even if we save one life, the impact on healthy women is worth it from a public health point of view.
       The problem with that thinking is the outrageous assumption they have the right to make that call for me, this is my asymptomatic body and I’ll decided what will and won’t be done, and I do not consider over-treatment to be a minor thing. I think that assessment came about because the medical profession still harbors unhealthy and outdated attitudes about women, our rights and bodies.
       Many women will not accept your advice, you may even get some angry or rude responses, you might be called crazy, but as more women get to the evidence (and that’s not easy) women will start to hear more from non-screeners. When I was 25 in 1983 you wouldn’t dare say you didn’t have pap tests, the atmosphere was so oppressive you could barely breath, now more women are speaking out, that’s a good thing.

       I was amazed when Dr Margaret McCartney publicly stated she does not have pap tests…what? Unthinkable that someone in medicine should make this admission, at the very least you keep that to yourself. Women have felt cornered because everyone seemed to say pap tests were essential and you were mad to “avoid” them, it’s a serious crack in the fortress wall when someone in medicine alerts women that they actually have a choice and that refusing them must be a reasonable choice if a doctor has rejected them. That is the fear, you can discredit a woman, but it gets harder when doctors speak out.

       Prof Baum was attacked when he first questioned the information being provided to women on breast screening, really savage stuff, yet now he’s one of many who all say the same thing. Safety in numbers has still not resulted in more honesty in cervical screening, I think the promotion of the pap test to the status of a feminist icon hasn’t helped either.
       A small number of women may be helped by pap tests, but that does not make screening a mandate, it should be our choice. Also, there were far better ways to reach these women without causing this level of harm and worry.
       I think the casual dismissal of female autonomy and bodily privacy seems to stem, in part, from the fact we might or have given birth, so self-testing and less testing is viewed as unimportant, women are supposed to get used to intimate examination, we have babies after all. That’s clearly an outrageous statement, we need to challenge those who think they have the right to dismiss our rights, tell us how we should feel etc. these attitudes must be driven out of medicine and that will start with individual women rejecting these attitudes.

       Don’t beat yourself up, many women NEVER find out, Dr Joel Sherman was amazed by our posts and did his own research and was amazed to find the cancer was indeed rare, from the start, not because of screening, so many, even in medicine, accept screening has made this cancer rare, which is not true.
       He was also, surprised by the level of over-detection and over-treatment and the lack of evidence and risks with routine pelvic exams etc. in response he wrote a rare article, “informed consent is missing in cervical screening” which appears in the WSJ and on the Kevin Md site. His own wife has had more than 40 pap tests!
       So the important thing is your mind was open enough to question and look for answers, so many women just climb into the stirrups, I don’t blame them, I blame the powerful system that intended to turn us all into a compliant herd.
       As well as this site, The Violet to Blue site lists lots of articles and studies, it hasn’t been updated in a while, but is still worth a look. Google Violet to Blue and cervical screening.
       Another interesting lecture is “Breast Cancer Screening, the inconvenient truth” by Prof Michael Baum. (You Tube and the London University site)

   • Just a quickie Marnie!
     The pap smear was introduced in the USA at around the same time as the incidence rate began to decline – so the thinking has always been that that decline has been due to the Pap. Which is, as we like to say on this side of the pond, a load of cobblers!
     If a disease is rare in the first place you have to screen huge numbers in order for the test to have any impact. And mass testing in the US didn’t start until decades later. So that decline is purely coincidental.
     It might help if you look for statistics from other countries… I spotted a graph with UK statistics from 1950 onwards – it shows quite clearly that the mortality rate for CC was in decline long before our national screening programme began (in 1988).
     Also, don’t forget the hysterectomy rate is the USA is the highest in the world and most are performed for benign conditions… you can’t get cervical cancer if you no longer have a cervix, right?

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     • Thanks Kate! Gosh I love this group of women. I’m trying to make myself feel better … really I am. I”m trying to focus on the fact that in most cases HPV does not lead to cancer and for most people…goes away on its own with no symptoms or problems.

     • Don’t know if you saw this in the UK, but Angelina Jolie apparently got her boobs cut off because she heard from doctors that she had a high potential to get cancer. Potential! Didn’t even have cancer.

       They made it out to be some kind of “empowering” thing. Particularly a “female empowerment” thing. But I don’t get how it’s empowering for a woman to get parts of herself cut off- much less distinctively female ones. I also don’t get why they didn’t portray leading a less cancerous lifestyle as a preventative or treatment measure as empowering.

     • Hi everyone again…. well I’m for sure on a bandwagon now. 🙂 I want to start putting a more positive spin on all these diagnostics and stats I’ve found.
       Without screening at all … over a woman’s lifetime she will be fine 98.5% + of the time.
       With screening 99.5+ % of the time she will be fine.
       It has been hard to find but I did find some sites that gave me stats on HPV + cases and now I can’t find them but I did write down that even in women 40 and over who are HPV+ 80-90% of the time they never have abnormal cells. And even when they do have abnormal cell , it does not mean they will get cancer.
       My friend has suggested I start a video blog of my journey with this and I think I might do that. Let me know if you want me to post it here if I do…. I don’t have to but if you’re interested.

       Also, I found a pamphlet on colposcopy treatment and I love the part where is says that there is less than a 2 % chance of infection and they brush it off like it’s nothing. But…isn’t that more than my lifetime chance of getting the cancer in the first place? crazy.

       Click to access Treatment%20of%20Abnormal%20Smears.pdf

8. I found this interesting article, I’m not sure if it’s ever been shared or not …
   http://ajcp.ascpjournals.org/content/135/5/798.full
   I made special note of where the author says ‘colposcopy itself presents no significant risk to patient health’. I’m thankful that the author’s reply ‘respectfully disagrees’ with this.
   I must admit that I am in a real conundrum here. Because of the beliefs I’ve had all my life regarding paps and cervical cancer, I am so very concerned about my risk now that I know I have HPV. Even though I have read several articles saying that most HPV goes away on it’s own, most of them refer to ‘young women’. I desperately do not want to get my cervix cut up…. and so…. I don’t know what to do. I’m going to keep following this…I’m going to keep reading….I will stay informed. I’m trying to find out if I can self test for HPV here in Canada and I haven’t found how to yet. I’ll let you all know….

   Reply
   • Why not contact Delphi Bioscience in the Netherlands? They post the Delphi Screener, (the HPV self-test device) to Australia (from Delphi Bioscience in Singapore) so they might be able to help you. Hopefully, it would get through, although I know Canadian customs are tough and confiscated the Pill that was ordered online by one of our members. Tampap is available in the UK, do they post off kits? Anyone know?

     In some countries being HPV+ means being over-screened with the pap test and having an immediate colposcopy/biopsy, regardless of the pap test result. (they know the pap test is unreliable) It’s going gangbusters, the Dutch simply offer a 5 yearly pap test to the 5% who are HPV+ (and aged 30 to 60)…and with ASCUS I imagine they’d re-test you in 6 months or a years time. I doubt very much they’d do a colposcopy/biopsy for ASCUS.
     I’ll check HPV Today and see how they manage women in your position. I think following an evidence based program gives you the best protection from rare cc and from the much greater risk of over-treatment/excess biopsy. (for those who wish to test)

     If you were tested for HPV+ more than a year ago, you may well have cleared the virus.
     I can understand why you’re worried, but remember even the 5% of women aged 30 to 60 – well, most will not benefit from pap testing, the risk is just so low, 0.65% is the lifetime risk of cc. Rare is rare.

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9. http://www.hpvtoday.com/revista3031/index.html
   This is the link for HPV Today, Edition 24 sets out the new Dutch screening program, this is a publication dedicated to HPV so LOTS of real information. Registration is required, but it’s free

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   • thank you!!!!

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10. There is an article called, “How should HPV+ women be triaged in population based screening?” in Edition 24 of HPV Today. Those who test positive for a high risk strain of HPV are offered an initial pap test (the baseline) and then another one at 6 or 12 months, this system reduces the number of women having colposcopies. You could send them an email to find out how they manage a HPV+ woman with an ASCUS pap test.

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    • Thank you so much for all your replies and sensitivity to my fear. I am going to be fully informed before I make a decision about anything. I just talked to a girlfriend about it and she said that she had two cryo (i forget the name) treatments before she was 25. She said she was hpv + and had ‘stage 1’ the first time and ‘stage 2’ the second time. The sad thing is that she believes she was ‘saved’ from cancer. After reading all I have I realize that she likely would have cleared it all on her own.

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      • Marnie, perhaps you should ask your friend if she was in a relationship at the time of her initial HPV diagnosis – if the answer is yes, ask her if her partner was also treated.
        Well of course he wasn’t – no man in his right mind would allow his happy place to undergo such barbaric ‘treatment’, especially when the virus really isn’t a problem for him.
        Think about it though – HPV is now being classed as an STD, and if you’re diagnosed with an STD you’re advised to tell your partner/previous encounters so they can get tested/treated too, right? Common sense.
        So… if her partner was also infected with the virus, then providing the cryotherapy (I love how medicine classes cut, poison & burn as ‘therapy’) actually removed all of the infected skin, her partner would simply have reinfected her. Or maybe there was some residual infection left behind which simply got worse due to the ‘treatment’. Remember that women’s healthcare is still reliant on practices from 60+ years ago – it sure ain’t rocket science!

        Our NHS says that if you need to have a repeat pap smear, usually due to an inadequate sample, you should wait at least 3 months – because apparently it takes that long for the skin to fully regenerate afterwards!
        So it takes 3 months to heal after a simple scrape, yet, if you have ‘treatment’, you’re advised that healing takes place in 4 – 6 weeks. Doesn’t add up, does it?
        I’ve seen posts all over the web from terrified women who’ve had a follow-up pap less than 3 months after a lletz – these poor women often have *yet another* abnormal result because their bodies haven’t had time to heal properly.

        If your friend was indeed reinfected, her cervix was likely still going through the healing process and was thus more vulnerable to the virus. Or any type of infection, for that matter. That may have been the reason her colposcopy results were worse the second time round. Just a theory, of course, but something to think about.
        That’s if the ‘abnormal changes’ were caused by HPV in the first place.

        Anyway, Elizabeth’s quite right as always. In many other countries she would never have been tested at such a tender age and yes, most likely would have cleared the virus in due course.

        P.S. Personally, if I wanted to check my HPV status and discovered I was HPV positive, that might be a cause for concern because I would know in my case it was a persistent infection – since I haven’t done the horizontal tango for a few years now (as Boy George once famously said, I’d rather have a nice cup of tea!) it couldn’t be a recent infection.
        I guess what I’m trying to say is that YOU are the best judge on such matters, not some quack who’s thinks they’ve got the right to make decisions on your behalf.

        Sorry for the ramble, folks. Time for bed methinks. 🙂

      • Thanks again for everyone’s support. I know that it comes down to me to make a decision, and as funny as it sounds…I didn’t really know that before.
        Also, I am trying to find more and more about HPV but it’s hard to get some hard facts on it as well.
        I know most women under 30 will clear the infection but I’m not sure about women in my age bracket. Also, what percentage of ‘persistant’ infections actually cause cancer? I doubt there are numbers on it because everyone gets ‘treatment’ for it.
        I did find another doctor who is more patient centered than most
        http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/11/informed-consent-missing-pap-smears-cervical-cancer-screening.html
        The comments after are also very encouraging.
        So there’s lots of news on paps. I get it now that paps are not as necessary as I once believed. Now my goal is to find out more on HPV.
        And here’s a question….Why isn’t there a vaccine for men? They get it too then pass it onto us. Shouldn’t there be a vaccine for both? (Not that I believe that vaccine does a lick of good. My point is that this is really a problem for both sexes. Michael Douglas’ throat cancer was apparently from HPV so that’s why I raise the question.)

11. If she’d been Dutch, Finnish or even British she would have avoided the treatments, she would not have been pap tested at all for her own protection.
    No country in the world has shown a benefit pap testing those under 30 and the UK concluded it was unethical to screen those under 25, 1 in 3 will be “abnormal” – either the pap picking up normal changes in the maturing cervix or transient and harmless infections. HPV primary testing is not recommended either as 40% would test positive, by age 30 that number drops to 5%…so pap and HPV testing is NOT recommended until age 30 in evidence based screening found in Finland and the Netherlands. (and the UK does not test before 25)

    The sad fact is these very rare cases in those under 30 will occur whether you screen or not. You’ll notice the rare cases involving a young woman are often those who’ve produced a recent normal pap test (false negative cases), the reliance on the pap test may falsely reassure women so that a normal result wins out and symptoms may be ignored or result in a delay in seeing a doctor. (so later diagnosis)

    Finland and the Netherlands advise young women to see a doctor with any unusual and persistent symptoms, they don’t complicate the matter by pap or HPV testing these women.
    These very rare cases tend to be adenocarcinoma, an even rarer form of cc and a type usually missed by pap testing. (which was designed to prevent squamous cell carcinoma)
    So I’d say your friend was almost certainly over-treated, she should not have been tested in the first place.
    You see the problem though, this screening, of all screening programs, has the most “survivors”…read over-treated. How many will believe they were screened and treated unnecessarily?
    By Stage 1 and Stage 2 I assume she means CIN 1 and CIN 2, young women can produce very abnormal pap tests, but this does not amount to “catching” or preventing anything, we just worry, damage and mislead a lot of women.
    Interesting in countries that test young women you find huge numbers having biopsies etc….yet the countries that don’t screen have the same or lower incidence of cc without the horrible over-treatment.

    Reply
    • Sounds like Britain is better than America on that. I notice the Brits seem to call things like it is much more than the Yanks do (and it’s weird, because the reputation is the exact opposite).

      Anyone know how the Slavic countries work with that? I know Jola said Poland was pretty dictatorial. I think they even tried to make it compulsory for work!

      Reply
12. “A woman with persistent ASCUS/LSIL or ASCUS HR-HPV positive cytology should be referred for colposcopy as directed by provincial/territorial guidelines. (III-A)”
    A Canadian study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23231803 (2012)
    So part of your consideration should include when you first tested positive for hrHPV and when you were last tested. Note the word “persistent”…

    Reply
13. AND whether this is your first ASCUS pap test result. I can’t bring myself to call ASCUS “abnormal”…

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14. Even here where we have an excessive program that doesn’t follow the evidence, a low grade result on a pap test means a repeat pap test.
    “If your Pap smear shows you have a definite or possible low grade
    abnormality, your doctor will usually recommend a repeat Pap smear in
    12 months time. This is because HPV is the cause of almost all abnormal
    results, and it usually clears up in one to two years”
    and, “For women who have not had the reassurance of a normal smear in the past two to three
    years, it is safer to have an early repeat smear or a colposcopy.”

    I don’t agree HPV is responsible for almost all abnormal results, a whole host of things can cause “abnormal” results.

    Click to access pap-smear.pdf

    Reply
15. 20% of women who have LEEP will have the dysplasia come back. Strange because if they had cin2 before the LEEP apparently 80% would have regressed to normal.

    Where are the real statistics about numbers of women treated for cervical cancer (who actually had staged cancer stage1,2,3or 4, not CIN 3 (carcinoma in situ or stage 0 cancer which is NOT cancer) ? The death statistics are reported. No way of knowing how many women just moved out of the registry area or died of other causes. Of course a woman being healed or cancer or precancer sponteously or by alternative therapies would never be accepted.

    The problem is once a women has an abnormal pap result the hunt is on to find something which means biopsy. Colposcopy itself when just looking with various reagents vinegar (acetic acid) and iodine (Lugol’s solution) and different color lights is not really so harmful physically (only psychologically). The biopsies and the Pap tests themselves do the damage. Considering that the virus that is supposed to cause cervical cancer infects the skin layers by “micro abrasions caused by sexual activity” then how much more is the skin layer damaged by biopsies cutting deeply and scraping up with spatulas and ramming brushes up where penises cannot fit? It is as if they are determined to make the infection spread and go deeper instead of helping women heal or giving them time to heal.

    The “magical” age of 35 has no medical evidence just arbitrary as far as I can find out. Women are all different and they do not all have relationships and babies according to a medically set time line. When a women enters into a new sexual relationship of course she could be exposed to strains of HPV that are new to her body no matter what age.

    Taking time to clear might be longer depending on her nutritional status and immune system. No one here yet has mentioned that taking vitamins is important to help clear HPV. Take a good multi vitamin,even a prenatal one. Women with low folic acid tend to have more cervical dysplasia.

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    • Hello everyone! Just an update here. I have great news…or at least I think it’s great. There is a woman’s show where I live and they are allowing me to put pamphlets into the showbags. I am working on writing one mostly about informed consent. I certainly will not tell people not to get paps done but to ask questions, know the facts and what risks there are in pre screening. what it really means to have an ‘abnormal’ pap. i don’t want it to be overwhelming, nor do i want it to be preachy or scary or any of that. ijust want women to know what i now, at 44, know about all of this. I’m excited! any thoughts anyone has on this…or if you think there is something i need in the pamphlet let me know. it will go out to about 10 000 women 🙂

      Reply
      • Here are my suggestions:

        (1) That a situation is what it consists of & any interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder). Properties don’t change by designation, so this being a “medical procedure” doesn’t make it a fictional situation. Ultimately, reality doesn’t take a coffee break for doctors.

        There’s a woman on this site, Ro, that said mentioning all that about properties not changing because of designation really helped to get people to stop arguing the “party line” & actually started being more supportive!

        (2) Right here would be a good place to mention the various risks & inaccuracies. It all applies in the same way & it’s now fairly easy to flow from one to the other more conversationally. It’s a good idea to throw in the fact that if, for instance, someone’s getting backed into a corner with birth control that this is a coercive iatrogenic attack AND reproductive endangerment. Maybe that “iatrogenic attack” means an attack using medical methodologies.

        (3) Taking a second to point out that it’s not immature, stupid, or otherwise defective to have bodily autonomy & self-protectiveness. Nor is it any of those things to think compositionally.

        (4) That altruism doesn’t produce ownership. Even IF someone has charitable feelings, that doesn’t mean they annex people with their decisions.

        (5) If there are financial incentives for reaching target numbers in your country, bringing that up would be a good idea (maybe having the title/code included). Not real good at “following the money,” but I’m pretty sure it’s called a “service incentive payment.” I’m also fairly sure that America, Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand all do this, but make sure if you’re going to add it in.

        These are my top five (in order, coincidentally). I’d really suggest mentioning these points, because a lot of their arguments amount to “what happens ISN’T what occurs.”

        If you’d like more, let me know- but I’d say these are the most important.

      • Easy, refer them to the NCI summary on the risks and benefits of mammograms, you can download it from their website, but it’s lengthy, perhaps, just print out the conclusion and give them the email address.
        Pap tests, now that’s harder, we don’t have an amazing NCI summary.
        (although I think they’re working on the Q: do the risks of cervical screening (population pap testing) exceed the benefits?)
        I’d refer them to the new Dutch program. (Edition 24 of HPV Today) I know many women have started doing their own research after hearing about the new Dutch program and I know more women are using the Delphi Screener.
        My point: it’s your body and your decision, but make sure you’re making an informed decision and focus on evidence-based testing. IF women want to test, HPV primary testing is smarter testing, giving you better protection from the remote risk of cc AND offering MUCH better protection from the high risk of false positives and excess biopsies/over-treatment. Most women cannot benefit from pap testing and the new Dutch program removes these women from the pap testing program, out of harms way.
        I think Dr Margaret McCartney’s articles are helpful too, especially when she admits she does not have pap tests and will not be having mammograms. This shocks many women, what? We actually have a choice…AND it’s a reasonable decision to decline testing, one that must be respected by the medical profession and others.

16. I watched the youtube video of the overdiagnosis presentation by Dr Gilbert Welch. Fascinating. However cervical cancer screening (Pap test) was not mentioned. He has written several books, all not for profit. All his book profits go to charity. Has anyone read his books? And is cervical cancer screening mentioned?

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17. It’s interesting how women’s health care has been set up so that women don’t realize that they have the choice to make a decision about their health care. We’re not told that we have the choice to have a pap or the well woman exam or mammograms but that we have to especially when we need the pill. I was never given information to accept or decline the pap or the well women exam. The pap and well women’s exam are not required exams for the safe use of the pill. All that is needed is a medical history and a blood pressure test. Any Dr who requires those exams for the pill is acting unethically and is basically committing assault. When you look at the Canadian Medical Association code of ethics it states:
    21. Provide your patients with the information they need to make informed decisions about their medical care, and answer their questions to the best of your ability.
    24. Respect the right of a competent patient to accept or reject any medical care recommended.

    But when it comes to paps and women’s health care in general those ethics are ignored.
    It didn’t occur me that I could reject paps and the well woman exam and eventually mammograms. That shows how effective the propaganda has been and that the medical profession doesn’t respect informed decision making when it comes to women’s health care. Information provided to women about these exams use the words should and must. Look at the Canadian Cancer Societies website where it states: “Women who are sexually active should have regular Pap tests by the time they are 21 years of age, Pap test is done every 1–3 years, depending on the screening guidelines in their province or territory, women who stop having sex should continue to have regular Pap tests, When a woman has a Pap test, a pelvic examination may also be done to make sure the pelvic organs are normal and to check for infections.”
    Compare that to the information about prostate cancer: “Men over the age of 50 should talk with their doctor about whether they should have testing for early detection of prostate cancer, research currently shows that the risks of testing for prostate cancer may outweigh the benefits of screening men at average risk of developing prostate cancer. It is important for men to talk with their doctor about their personal risk of developing prostate cancer and about the benefits and risks of testing.”
    It is estimated that in 2013 23,600 men would be diagnosed with prostate cancer and 3,900 men would die while 1,450 Canadian women would be diagnosed with cervical cancer and 380 would die. But men are given a choice and informed consent while women are not. The difference in the language is powerful and it shows how women have come to think they don’t have a choice in their health care. We’re just expected to comply and to go along with all recommendations. If we don’t comply we’re lectured in appointments and hounded with letters and our other health care needs ignored (I remember reading one story of a woman whose Dr declined to prescribe asthma meds because she wouldn’t have a pap smear) or in some cases denied access to health care all together with Dr’s dismissing women as patients who don’t have pap smears. That is also unethical as quoted above and also the CMA code of ethics states: “19. Having accepted professional responsibility for a patient, continue to provide services until they are no longer required or wanted; until another suitable physician has assumed responsibility for the patient; or until the patient has been given reasonable notice that you intend to terminate the relationship.”

    Reply
    • Hmm I posted something hours ago and it’s not here ….too bad it had a link in it. Oh well. Basically, I’m on a mission now. I want people’s perceptions to change. I also don’t want people thinking they have a -1 % chance of getting cc…they have 99+ % of living a healthy normal life.
      I also discovered that of the hpv+ women 40+ out there 85-95% will also go on to live normal healthy lives without the worry of cc. The other women do have ‘abnormal’ cells but as well all know that doesn’t mean cancer. The body could possibly get rid of them if given a chance or they could just sit there being weird and that’s it. Incredible.

      Reply
      • Always like to hear from another informed woman on a mission, on the bandwagon, on her soapbox, anywhere actually…keep reading and talking!

        Many women spend years climbing into the stirrups having more and more of their cervix removed until finally some are happy to get rid of the lot and have a hysterectomy. (600,000 are performed in the States every year) On some American health forums I’ve heard women say they’re sick of all the gyn stuff and just want it to stop, so they’re considering/having a hysterectomy. Of course, many of these women still go on to have 6 or 12 monthly pelvic exams and pap tests even AFTER the hysterectomy because they have a history of “dysplasia” or “abnormal” pap tests. There is no escape for these poor women who live in fear their entire lives.

        The misery this must cause is hard for me to fathom, someone who has never had a pelvic exam or pap test. There is no doubt in my mind this is no life at all and I know many women end up carrying permanent damage, physically and emotionally. There are threads on forums dedicated to cervical scarring and the problems it causes – infertility, the need for c-sections, it can interfere with menstruation and lead to infections and possibly endometriosis etc. It illustrates how common it is for women to have cervical damage, often after early treatments. (when the risk of a false positive is at it’s highest)
        I know there have been at least two suicides after a false positive mammogram.
        It makes me wonder just how many women go down that path as a result of these “life-saving” tests and exams.

        There have been some tragic posts over the years, women who’ve suffered badly as a result of over-treatment – from unnecessary hysterectomies, women who’ve lost premature babies (born early after the cervix failed, damaged by an early “treatment”) women who almost died, one woman had an emergency hysterectomy after she almost bled to death after a cone biopsy, others end up with cervical stenosis or incompetence etc…the list is long.
        We’re told these things are rare outcomes, BUT the cancer we’re trying to prevent is RARE. Why is the rare event of invasive cervical cancer the only thing they see, is it a success to harm so many in an attempt to help a few? I say NO.
        NO screening test or exam is risk-free and as you’ve found, the risks with these tests and exams are usually far greater than the thing they’re trying to prevent.
        I’ve lost count of the accounts over the years, and it’s been hard…when you KNOW almost all of this damage was/is avoidable.

      • Good luck and be prepared to argue because you’re going to encounter resistance. The need for constant monitoring of the female sexual organs has been engrained into our culture. Many women do not realize they can decline screening but it is also deeply believed that to go for your yearly well woman exam and pap is part of living a healthy life style and being responsible with your health. To not screen is viewed as being reckless and a bad wife/partner/parent and if you don’t screen and get cancer it’s your fault and you deserve it. Because of the propaganda women overestimate their risk of developing cancer and most assume that someday they will get cancer and believe that if they catch it early then their life will be saved. Most people do not realize that the deadly cancers that kill usually grow quickly and show up between screenings and that screening is more likely to catch the small cancers that were probably never life threatening but lead to invasive treatments that in themselves could be life threatening. Most women also don’t realize that heart disease is a greater threat to their health. Overall a culture of fear has been created around cancer particularly of the female sex organs with no truthful information being discussed about the risk factors of getting cancer and of screening. What it also comes down to is that even if CC was a real threat to our life we still have the right to say no to screening.

    • I’m not trying to be insulting, but women seem “check for permission” (when it’s not up to someone else to grant or deny) whereas0 men just form a situation to their liking. If someone attacks them, they don’t check if there’s an enemy-supported option to counter this situation or retaliate to it).

      This doesn’t mean that someone should categorically be unconcerned about things like this, but someone shouldn’t outsource the ability to protect themselves to the ones they are trying to protect themselves from. This is a major conflict of interest & an ineffective strategy to do things of this nature. Again, it doesn’t matter if they don’t want to lose.

      Reply
18. For the lady with the abnormal Pap test, google folic acid and abnormal pap. You get many results about vitamin supplements helping clear abnormal cells on a pap. Folic acid, vitamin B12 and others are suggested along with dosages. I am I not surprised your doctor did not suggest this? Even some medications such as ones for GERD, epilepsy deplete the body of folic acid or vitamin B12 .

    Also proper nutrition or vitamin supplements can also help for colon polyps. Yet doctors never seem to mention this as they are pushing colonoscopies. Not much risk to take a good multivitamin per day. More risk for all these tests.

    Prostate cancer treatment results in impotence and urinary incontinence. This is why men are not pushed for testing or screening. Apparently womens sexual pleasure, fertility or hormone levels are not important.

    Reply
19. Can anyone please tell us just how much a self-screener costs? I cannot find this anywhere on the web.

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20. Clare, contact Delphi Bioscience, they might be able to mail the Delphi Screener to you. I know a few Australian women who’ve used it, I don’t think it’s that expensive.
    If you’re HPV- they recommend you re-test in 5 or 10 years time and pap tests are unhelpful for HPV- women. Also, if you’re HPV- and confidently monogamous or no longer sexually active, you might choose to forget all future testing.
    So if a woman wants to test, sounds like a good deal to me, far better than numerous pap tests with the high risk of an excess biopsy or over-treatment.
    (Note: HPV testing is recommended for women aged 30 to 60…and pap tests are of no benefit to those under 30…and now we know can’t help the vast majority of women (age 30+) who’d be HPV-)
    http://www.delphi-bioscience.com/Paginas/default.aspx

    Also, Tampap is another HPV self test, currently available in the UK.

    Reply
    • Hi Clare, I have tried emailing the Delphi and they still haven’t gotten back to me. I have found that the test is around 30 dollars but I don’t know where you live so that may not be accurate. I’ve done TONS of reading about HPV and hope you know that even if you are HPV + it doesn’t mean you have cervical cancer or that you will get cervical cancer.
      I just read this article about the benefits and risks of HPV testing if you’d care to read it…
      http://www.ascp.org/PDF/Publications-PDFs/Commentary-on-Statement-on-HPV-DNA-Test-Utilization.aspx
      The women in this blog are amazing and I encourage you to post here any questions or comments you may have.

      Reply
      • mgpr, Are you American? Sorry, I’ve forgotten…
        I’ve contacted Delphi Bioscience in Singapore a couple of times, I could send them an enquiry and check access in your country. (or one close by, save those frequent flyer points or $$$s, for those women who want to test, it’s definitely worth the effort)

21. The way doctors mislead woman about hpv is sad. I read a husbands post on another blog telling how if his wife had not been screened she would have never been cured from her “hpv cancer” that is so wrong for gyns to mislead woman and there familys. They act like they have saved so many womans lifes from hpv.

    Reply
    • I guess they like the deception. Screwed-up, huh?

      mgpr2013- How’s it going with those pamphlets or whatever you were doing? I don’t remember if it was a leaflet you were going to be handing out or show you were going to be on, but I remember you wanting advice on what information to put in something.

      Reply
      • Hi Alex, I’m great. I am taking the approach of screening in general but will mention stats on cervical cancer and breast cancer and the huge amount of screening and treatment that is done to save only a few. I will definately mention the rate of cervical cancer as well. Both prior to paps being done and post pap screening.
        I also wrote a letter to the women’s clinic I went to to say how angry I was that the dr I saw could answer none of my questions and I will write a similar letter to the colposcopy clinic saying how angry I was that the receptionist basically threatened me with having cancer if I didn’t show up for this appointment.
        I’m trying to find the article again but it said that 80% of CIN3 regressed on it’s own. EIGHTY PERCENT. I don’t know the age group but I’ll see if I can find it.
        The other part that I’m trying to find out is how do I know if I”ve got a persistant HPV infection or not? I’ve had a new partner in the last 2 years…so I don’t know. The more I read the more I realize they don’t know a lot about HPV either. It may lay dormant, it may not. Most of the time it goes away, sometimes it doesn’t. It seems to me that instead of spending the money on a vaccine (that is useless anyway IMO) they should have spent the money on figuring out more about HPV altogether.
        And one more thing….I HATE the term precancerous cells. That seems to me an implication that they WILL turn into cancer. That simply isn’t the case. By that logic pretty much every cell in my body is ‘precancerous’. I understand that some may be more predisposed to be cancerous but ….they aren’t cancerous.
        It’s just tragic the number of stories I’ve been reading about, young women especially, who had their ‘lives saved’ because they had precancerous cells removed.
        I have a girlfriend who I’ve recently shared my new cause with and she was very upset with me. Paps ‘saved her life’ too. She told me she had cancer removed …. I was shocked and I said I had no idea she had cancer and she said yes, they were classified as atypical squamous cell of undetermined signifigance. She believed she had cancer. She did not want to listen to what I had to say about it. Tragic. So many ‘survivors’ and so little disease.

      • Males will be leaned on now to have unnecessary exams since not an issue yet and no news stories yet but the healthy people who get “Preventive” care bolster the profits and women being overly exploited by greed and profit seking is gotten some attention so move toward exploiting males who dont know better. Use of an actor who did have cancer (?) hopefully not just another commercial hes getting paid for but su-posedly he had cancer so is now promoting mens preventive tests and exams Yealy is not necessary for the test that actualy help since most gyn have low percent of accuracy and many cancers found due to symptoms and not detected by exams but false results requiring more exams and un eccessary surgeries is so common in USA.

22. Sorry a woman having CIN3 might want to get a colposcopy since she could have cancer because the pap is inaccurate both ways. It could miss cancer. The problem is getting a colposcopy without the pressure for treatment. Such as some women might want to wait to see if their HPV clears and their dysplasia clears up before doing a treatment or use alternative therapies. Only most doctors do not want to wait. It is legal issues too.

    You can find plenty of journal articles that discuss the percentages of regression etc. however if it is your cervix and your health, try to get as much info as possible. Do not expect to get information from a receptionist. That is not their job. Even the doctors do have time. They system is just wrong.

    Depending where you live you can ask for a HPV test. Ask about whether the results show if which types. Types 16 and 18 are most likely to cause cancer. But if a woman has these types and CIN3, she might consider getting treatment rather than just nothing.

    Reply
    • Moo you’re absolutely right. I didn’t mean to imply you should ignore it or not get it checked. I simply want to let women know that HPV is common, and in most cases goes away. As does CIN3. I am no doctor, I just think women have been scared for so long and I want women to be educated on the realities of cervical cancer and then make a decision. Informed consent … to me is the most important message.

      Reply
      • Hello I was just reading your message from 2 years ago can I ask did you get hpv and if so did it clear

      • Hi, 2 years ago I had a very small boat with cervical cancer supposably… I could be wrong but I get a strong feeling that they we’re looking to make money off of a hysterectomy… I can’t be sure though… when they did the biopsy she said she only found a small spot… So small it couldn’t be seen with the human eye… She said she got it all out but still recommended a radical hysterectomy… She also told me that if you’re going to get cancer this is the type of cancer you want because it is the slowest growing and the most easy to treat… Wanting me to get a radical hysterectomy made no sense and I refused and she pretty much kicked me to the curb… Now 2 years later I go in for a check-up to make sure it hasn’t returned and the doctor which is a different doctor this time but they’re all in the same Loop was pushing for me to get a hysterectomy and she hadn’t even sent in the test yet to see if the cancer had returned… I couldn’t believe my ears… And she was scaring me so bad… And I told her I won’t do it… my concern is that they’re lying to me and going to tell me I have cancer even if I don’t… It’s been an insane ride… Any suggestions? I don’t have much of an income at the moment and so I can only go to Dr under my insurance and unfortunately they’re all connected and they all seemed surgery happy… My doctor said to me today that she doesn’t make any money off of my hysterectomy because on salary…but I don’t know about that

      • To the lady concerned about Small spot of cancer. Are you sure it is cancer? Ask for a copy of the lab report. You might also want a HPV test to determine what strain of the virus if the cancer is caused by HPV.

        These doctors’ recommendations depend in your age and their malpractice insurance. If you are over 35 or say you are not going to have any more babies they will push for radical hysterectomy (remove uterus and ovaries) for any results above CIN I. This is mostly because they fear getting sued.

        If you do have a lab report confirmed cancer they will think that there could be cancer somewhere else that they just did not see and did not get it all out.

        You have to get the facts and then make the best decision about your life that you can.

23. Many women with CIN 3 think they would have developed actual cervical cancer, they assume it’s a natural progression, it’s not.
    From memory about 12% progress to invasive cc…some studies go as high as 20% and I think one said 30%…regardless, the majority have nothing to worry about, of course, I can understand why someone in that position might be concerned.
    The scare-mongering and misinformation definitely hasn’t helped, but IMO, that was their intention, “HPV is everywhere, we’re all at risk!”….it helps cast a wide net and scare the daylights out of everyone….and they hope create a scared, compliant and grateful herd.

    Reply
    • Hi Elizabeth…I”m Canadian 🙂
      The scare mongering is very effective. I change my mind daily, sometimes hourly, about whether or not I’ll get a colposcopy/ biopsy. It really depends on what I read and who’s written it LOL,

      Reply
      • The CIN level is about how many layers the HPV infection has spread done to. If it is CIN3 the it is down to the bottom layer and the theory is that the HPV infected cells are producing proteins that induce cancer. So CIN1 is only the top most layer affected and more likely that the body will clear it so the higher regression rates. CIN2 is between the two and into the middle layer. There is also a good chance that it can regress as well. Some strains of HPV involved in CIN3 are very likely to cause cancer. But just getting a CIN3 pap result probably means your body is having trouble clearing the virus.

        What affects regression is the size of the HPV infection. It could be a small pin size so that could still be deep in the layers such as CIN3 but the body might be able to handle healing it. However if the HPV infection is over a larger area the body might need some help. If you have CIN3 you should probably consider at least finding out how big a problem it is before deciding any treatments from a colposcopist.

        Healing HPV on your own depends on certain factors such as age, smoking, vitamin deficiencies, other infections, immune status.

        Maybe you could consult with a naturopathic doctor for treatment. Some of them will send their pap lab work outside of your province for processing so the results will not be recorded in the provincial registry. However they charge and will also recommend diet, lifestyle and supplements to go with the treatments. It could cost you several hundred dollars.

        Do you not understand what the colposcopy process and biopsy is about?

      • Hi Moo, yes I fully understand what the colposcopy and biopsy is about, which is why I don’t know if I want to get it done. I had an ASCUS pap. Which I suppose could be anything. But considering my overall risk of getting cervical cancer in my lifetime is so very low I don’t know if I want to keep digging around in there. The truth is, if I could go back in time I never would have had paps done at all. Or even tested for HPV. The rate of regression for these conditions is so very high and the risk of cc so low…I’d rather not know. But now that I do know…I’m torn about what to do.
        I now know that the truth is they don’t know which will regress and which won’t. So they treat everything just in case. I get it. But … I don’t know how I feel about it.

      • mgpr2013- Aside from the fact that just because you ARE a woman doesn’t mean that you are likely to get something that only a woman can get- they don’t mention that these are high risk & low utility methods of detecting something that’s massively rare. I figure it’s a good idea to take this into account if you’re thinking about follow-ups to things.

        Something I told Ro (I think) that might be helpful:

        People tend to presume honesty & accuracy when interacting with someone. That’s not always misplaced- if you were to ask someone what time it is & they told you “3:30,” their watch probably does say “3:30.” Same goes with tone, body language, etc… .

        This can be used against someone & through subtle methods. Like when someone says something where something else would have to be true- it implies the background that would support the situation. A common trick is someone presenting something as a fixed situation (as if there exists no capacity for things to unfurl any other way). Like when they say that they “WILL” be doing something or that someone is “GOING” to be having something- that implies that things are this way. They don’t mention that an action has to be engaged in order to occur.

      • Hi Alex, you’re right. And as I say I can’t decide. Luckily I don’t have to. I have several months for my ‘urgent’ ASCUS case gets examined. The fact is that cervical cancer happens. It is rare. Every woman needs to decide how important it is to her to get checked, but…that is only the beginning. Once you’re checked…then what? According to some it’s very serious. According to others not so much. I compare it to a smoker who is deciding whether or not to be tested for lung cancer. I’m at a higher risk because I am HPV positive but it doesn’t mean I have cancer or that I will develop cancer. I wish I had information sooner but I’m glad I have it now.

      • That’s a good comparison! I didn’t think of that one (but I’m sure, as there’s no excuse for personal agency as far as they’re concerned, they’d try some kind of imposed situation with that).

        If I might offer a bit of advice: Look at the chance of NOT having cancer more than the possibility of having it. It’s not just that there’s a massive amount more one way, but also if you focus so much on that one potential it’ll usually start to seem like a definite thing.

24. I thought you said you have CIN3. Just ASCUS? I would personally not bother with colposcopy for ASCUS but that is my body.

    What puzzles me is what does “persistent HPV infection” mean? Is it with the same strain or if someone is tested for HPV every three years and all positive, regardless of strain, is that persistent. Is the carcinogenic effect of HPV infection accumulative or more related to strain? Who has those answers?

    If someone has one HPV strain and clears it, then apparently they can not be reinfected with that same strain again otherwise the vaccines would not work for long. The immune system cells remember only for so long though.

    I do not buy this “HPV reactivation” in older women. I think that they are probably new infections with different strains. Yes an odd cancer cell could hang put and decide to grow crazy later (we all have cancer cells) but there must be some stimulus.

    Most of the HPV tests are crocks because it is possible to identify each strain individually but they just group them all to make more money. Now the newer ones are having separate results for strains 16 and 18 because of the vaccines. This is because if a women has the vaccine she could test positive on a regular HPV test. There are also many other strains that are cancer causing so they need to cash in on that.

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    • Hi Moo, exactly what I”m saying. I have had ASCUS paps before, a few years ago, but no HPV. My pap last year was normal but this one now comes up with HPV and ASCUS. That’s why i’m soooo dubious about this whole rush to cut part of my cervix off and test it. I”ve also had a new partner in the last 24 months. For a little more info, I was pregnant last year and miscarried and I have read that that can make HPV pop up because your immunity is compromised. Also, I told the dr that I just finished my period the day before this pap. I was wearing tampons the day before…so I know that can affect the test. So, I am left wondering exactly what you’re asking. What is persistant? Who has these answers? Why aren’t they finding these things out instead of pumping money into vaccines? I think we all know the answer to that one.

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25. mgpr2013 – I was in a similar boat – CIN1 colposcopy requested but I refused and was currently in menopause which by the way could have thrown up the abnormal cells. I could not put myself through this with possible treatment for something that may or more likely may not become cancer. Its a very long rollercoaster ride, for years! They claim it is simple and pain free, I don’t buy this at all. When it is me/yourself or any woman in those stirrups legs akin, a stranger behind the sheet hiding all those tools and acids , it is in no way SIMPLE! Overtreatment is huge, massive in almost every medical area. I feel I have protected myself from harm to this date, from 2009 this began and I am still here. The more I read, from here and elsewhere the more shocked I become, from all the lies. I have seen quoted on training sites “don’t tell the woman this or that because she will refuse the test” etc. All the projects they spend money on soley for the purpose of increasing uptake. If they have to lie and try so dam hard to get us to comply then something is seriously wrong, ALARM BELLS are ringing. It has to be with FULLY informed consent and as they hold back honest information, then it is not informed consent! This is not ethical. I understand your frustration as have been there, like many on this site, and still get questioned at every doctors visit. I was a little abrubt this time but was at the end of my tether, I’ve already said NO several times so again I said “its an informed decision and thats final”. I have another appt 10th April, lets see what happens this time. Oh and the Doc was sneeky and asked if I would have a cholesterol test, I foolishly said yes and the nurse told me its high at 5.6 and now I believe that is normal in the uk for the average woman-huh whatever average is LOL. Now I know that it was simply another screening test, Dam! Being told it was high made me angry then upset then angry again, followed by no dinner, a headache and a rough nights sleep! I am 47 kilos for goodness sake, why on earth would he want to test my cholesterol – easy answer – more targets and incentives!! Anyway I know my weight is fine but it did bother me, guess I’m just one of those sensitive types LOL! Good luck with your decision but make it yours and not anyone elses decision.

    Reply
    • Thank you so much for sharing your story. And I know exactly what you mean. I think the thing I never thought about before was “If I get screened, and they find something….what am I prepared to do about it?”
      And I believe that I have about a 90%+ chance that I am perfectly fine. I think I can live with that statistic.

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    • To anonymous. I got the cholesterol test because the rant was “prevention is important” however he never gave me any numbers just “it was ok” . If he ever asks again he is going to have to give me previous test results, paper copies and not try to charge me an outrageous fee. I know now much printing a piece of paper from his computer cost.

      How can I possibly know if my exercise and eating habits are good enough when I have no numbers. I am overweight but I refuse to weigh at the clinic because the scale is in the reception area. Not private.

      The e-medical files is a sham. It allows other health care workers to easily access your records but you, the patient, cannot see your own information unless you pay the outrageous fee. Presently the fee is $30 for the first pay and extra after that.

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      • Hi I am in New Zealand and they are bringing in Electronic Medical records here. It is an opt off system just like the NCSP register. I have already been to my GP surgery and opted my entire family off. To his credit my GP is not doing it……for now.

26. Sorry that last post was from me ChasUK

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27. Anon. I Am happy to hear you stoud up for your self at the doctors. If you dont mind me asking, What was the docotrs and nurses reaction when you you refused and mentiond informed concent and over treatment? I had a bad experiance with a nurse who didnt even know what a pap cheeked but scolded me for not haveing a pap date for her.

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    • Ever notice how they either act like they’re experts in a field, but then don’t know anything about it or DO know what they’re doing & lie about it? Either one is a scam. Fraud is fine in a medical situation, then? No, of course not.

      They also tend to act innocent & like any other medical personnel is innocent no matter what they do. They are not innocent of their own actions!

      I guess you can’t expect them to dress like Dracula & bare their teeth at you before they try to cause a problem.

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      • A few years ago, there was a bill on the Oklahoma State ballot which explicitly gave doctors permission to lie to their patients! http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/28/carr.abortion.oklahoma/index.html  The bill said that a doctor did not have to tell a pregnant patient of a foetus’ birth defects even if she directly asked him and he knew. It’s a slippery slope which would require only a single court case to decide that the “intent” of the law was to allow doctors to lie under other circumstances. The most amazing thing was that it was passed into law!

28. Alex, I also think they hide behide these exams being “standard of care” and also the follow ups. Even if the screening makes no since and the follow ups are damaging they do think if they dont follow up they are gona be sued. Its about money i think the Acog makes these “recomendations” to protect profit. “woman should have this” its like not doing it is not right and doctors thin kick woman out of there office if they do not comply with standard of care. IE FORCED PAP SMEARS.

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29. also the nurse that scolded me for not haveing pap smears. Thought pap smears had somthing to do with mensturation and didnt know crap about the screening and i think she felt thretened when it questioned it and new more than she. An educated nurse.

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    • I’ve heard that as a running theme with nurses (at least in America). They’re usually lazy, arrogant, control-freaks that think they’re educated & have an “I’m not going to be ignored” attitude. They also seem to not be able to handle things well at home, so they try to play “commander-in-chief” with patients.

      I remember one of my mother’s friends was a nurse & she was sub-human. Not to get too graphic with details, but her son was “less than loyal” as a brother to his two little sisters & not only did this bitch pay for his $400 worth of parking tickets but she forced these girls to see him again & let him be alone with the next two children she had! Oh, but I was considered a “bad influence” or something along those lines.

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      • I don’t think it’s fair to label all nurses as lazy, arrogant, control freaks. There are lots and lots of nurses who are wonderful, caring, hardworking people. I personally believe that most doctors and and nurses BELIEVE they’re doing the right thing. Paps have been around a loong loong time. I think they’re taught what they are and how to do them and what to look for but not the full risks and benefits.

      • I wasn’t trying to label them ALL that way, but I was talking in trends. Sorry if I offended you.

        I was going to say “the road to Hell is paved with good intentions,” but I truly don’t think they have that many good intentions. That’s a personal take on things, but it’s not baseless. If they really wanted to help people, they wouldn’t be doing things that are incongruent with that (forcing women into these kinds of tests, for instance- regardless of potential utility). Attack is antithetical to assistance, after all.

        I don’t mean to come off condescending, but is someone attacking somoene (iatrogenically or otherwise) helping them? I could go & burn someone’s house down & maybe they’d have a good weekend living with their relatives, but that is not an act of assistance.

    • I’ve had a number of nurses and physicians scold me for not getting exams frequently enough, and for an educated decision I had made for my health. Like, seriously, scold. I’ve had someone sit in on an exam once and they were surprised by the attitude I received. It made me want to go back less than I had been. These medical workers are only human and I understand their concern for me, it is their job. But, if I were in their position, I would use positive reinforcement. That I was going in at all was a huge deal. I do feel that these screenings are important. But the more I read and the more I understand my own risks (I may have fewer as I have an unusual situation), and the more nurses I know who have weird attitudes and biases, the more I educate myself. I go in when I think it is time, and I do. I space my appointments as I wish. If I feel like I really don’t need a test at the time, I won’t do it. I won’t be pressured into it or be made to feel bad.

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      • D. I to have been scolded by a nurse bc I have never had a pap and explaned to her i was never sexually active and it was like she didnt know what a pap smear was for. She even said that it had somthing to do with woman mensturating and she acted personaly offended. But it is a thret to there bussnes when woman chooce to cut back or not have these exams screenings at all. I whould not let them talk to you as its your body not theres and they have no right.

30. Part of the argument for pap screening was that the precancerous condition is “easy to treatment” before it becomes cancers. Once a squameous cancer starts, it spreads quickly to other parts of the body and then “it is too late”. So cervical cancer is supposed to be a “preventable cancer” What is the truth in this, if any? Keeping in mind only CIN3 is considered a precancer.

    What other types of cancer can be “prevented”. What other precancerous changes in the body can be detected by a test or observing?

    For example melanoma can be fatal. Some moles can turn bad. So are all moles scraped and biopsied? Lung cancer is huge but does every cough need a chest X-ray and a biopsy? When is testing necessary and when is it overdiagnosis?

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31. comment removed by moderator due to rude, crude and offensive language.

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    • Dude, you’re out of your fucking mind! You figure a husband should kill his wife because he can’t get jacked-off by a doctor as easily as a woman COULD use a doctor as a gigilo?!

      The general situation is that women get PUSHED into this situation whether with false advertising or coercive practices- they don’t mention risks, inaccuracies or alternatives AND as a general rule people get argued with when they express issue with the dynamics of the situation.

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32. Attention moderator.
    Please erase this abuse and ban the previous poster.

    Reply
    • Moo, your wish is my command. Alex, well said. 🙂

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33. […] What Doctors Don’t Want You to Know About Pap Tests and Pelvic Exams […]

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34. If anyone knows the class action filed to sue this seemingly legal practice, pls contact me (ssuwandi@gmail.com).. when I asked if there us any cure from the biopsy results and the nurse said there is no cure, I definitely know what my option is. I told the nurse it is my body and I will let nature takes its own course.. this was first pap done in a prominent hospital.. prior paps in a small clinic did not suggest any biopsy. Be careful of rubbish practise, your body is traded off for profits!!!

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35. I found a patent, approved in 1982, for a speculum cover that protects women from cross-contamination – being infected with diseases from the doctor’s prior patients via the unsterilized speculum (just washed off in the sink between patients, no matter what those patients may have been infected with). https://www.google.com/patents/US4492220 This issue has been known since at least then, and why hasn’t this device, or better ones, become the standard of practice?

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    • The use of single use plastic speculums is supposed to help reduce cross contamination. The bulk boxes or packages of speculum purchased are not sterile however and would only be sterile when the package was first opened. However unsterile plastic speculum can be contaminated by surfaces, handling, dirty gloves, splash back from a dirty sink where these are wettened before use.

      Metal speculum were previously used and had to disinfected between patients (not usually sterilized). Covers for metal speculum are rather redundant.

      Sterile plastic speculum are available but mostly used for pregnant patients. I think that all speculum and gloves, tools (ultrasound probes) used for any pelvic exams such be sterile. After all anything that your dentist puts in your mouth is carefully cleaned and sterilized.

      I would like to try this. Take a plastic spoon to your next doctor appointment. Put it in your mouth and then take it out. Or just put it around on surfaces in their office. Offer to rinse it off or wipe it with alcohol and ask him/her if you could put it in their mouth. Say you would even wear gloves, likely they will refuse. Really? Then tell them you feel the same about your vagina.

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      • I don’t want them putting a plastic or metal speculum into me, sterile or unsterile, with or without a plastic cover. I’ll pass on the plastic spoon illustration.

        Given that they ARE resusing these single-use medical products – including specula and now, it’s even come to light that they’re reusing hypodermic needles(!!!), and that packages of even sterile specula are no longer sterile after packages are open, the problem with these rinsed-off-in-a-dirty-sink specula is a recognized problem. It’s just that they don’t recognize it enough in their office to the patient. I think they recognize it, and it’s a lucrative way to get more patients with infections, more visits, more chances to grope and prod, and more payments.

36. No doctor in their right mind would reuse a plastic speculum ever. It is disposable on purpose. Unless you live in some third world country where this apparently happens often such as reusing plastic syringes because of low resources.

    You could possibly purchase your own sterile speculum and take it with you to your doctor appointment and insist that is used. Sterile gloves are also available.

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    • But that’s exactly what’s evidently happening in the US.

      It’s not just plastic specula, but needles, syringes, single-dose vials of injectable drugs, tubing, enema nozels, colonscopy supplies, and on and on.

      The CDC is seeing upticks in diseases which have been rare to unknown to get in a first world clinic for decades, among people who are most certainly NOT IV drug users who have not travelled out of the country.

      http://www.cdc.gov/injectionsafety/patients/syringeReuse_faqs.html
      http://www.endonurse.com/news/2013/06/sgna-releases-reuse-of-single-use-critical-medica.aspx
      http://www.everydayhealth.com/hiv-aids/1219/can-you-contract-hiv-at-your-doctors-office.aspx
      http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/03/29/thousands-oklahoma-dental-patients-urged-to-get-tested-for-hiv/ (Evidently this guy was not alone)

      Evaluation of Needle/Syringe Reuse Among Anesthesia Providers (Barton, Cynthia L.; Deaton, Sharon M.; Carroll, Tammy; Monaghan, W. Patrick; Mangar, Devanand; October 2009; AANA Journal;Oct2009, Vol. 77 Issue 5, p375)
      Outraged Senators Weigh Testimony On Reuse, Part 2 (November 2000, Medical Design Technology;Nov2000, Vol. 4 Issue 11, p14)

      Article ABSTRACT
      Part II. Deals with the debate over reuse practices of hospitals in the United States. Business of saving patients; Importance of patient safety; Emerging growth countries’ policy of banning reuse entirely.

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37. In 2013 there was 29.4 million cervical cancer tests (pap smears) performed in the US. But only 12,000 women were diagnosed with cervical cancer. For so many screening tests being performed certainly the US would have the one of the world’s lowest cervical cancer mortality rates. Unfortunately that is not the case in fact the US is not # two or three or four.

    Reply
    • Exactly, Kathy, in fact the country with the lowest rates of this always-rare cancer is Finland, they have had a 7 pap test program, 5 yearly from 30 to 60, since the 1960s. Even now there is “concern” in some countries about winding back pap testing, is it safe to go to 3 yearly?
      They’re not interested in the evidence, dragging all women into the mix is good for them, but a harmful and unnecessary burden for the 95% of women who are not at risk and cannot benefit from pap testing. Looking at over-treatment rates, and there is (conveniently) very little research into the area, Australia has huge and hidden referral rates (caused by early screening and serious over-screening), the States would have similar, if not higher, rates. In the days when most US women were having annual pap testing from teens almost all women end up being referred at some stage, in the article by DeMay he puts the lifetime risk in the 90s (95% or so)
      So early screening (before 30) and over-screening (1, 2 or 3 yearly pap tests) = high over-treatment rates. The more often you test, the more likely you’ll end up referred and be over-treated.
      The Finns referral rate is much lower and now with evidence based screening (the new Dutch program) and pap testing only being offered to the 5% of Dutch women aged 30 to 60 who are HPV+ …this will see referral rates plummet. (and their rates are already well below our referral rates, they have never over-screened women and do not test before age 30)
      This subject is made complicated by those who benefit from that confusion, it’s really quite simple, put women first, follow the evidence and respect informed consent.

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    • Do you think that low income women in United States have access to medical care when they need it? More likely these are the women who are dying of cervical cancer. The rich and insured are getting paps done every year if their doctors demand it and can get paid for it by insurance companies.

      You can compare countries who have public health care programmes. Even then some women do not have paps at all or rarely. The participation rates in screening programmes has to be considered to show that screenings is effective (which it is not).

      As Elizabeth points out, the HPV test is more important.

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38. Just using your example: 29.4 million pap tests = a huge amount of money
    Now evidence based testing would ONLY test the 5% who are HPV+ (and who want to test)…can you imagine the huge loss of income to doctors, specialists, hospitals etc. We’re talking about enormous sums of money, no wonder there’s a lot of “concern” about evidence based screening!

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39. I had a biopsy following a smear with low grade dyskarosis. Ever since I can’t orgasm and just feel pain instead. More then anything it’s emotionally painful. Will I never enjoy sex again? Is there anything I can do?! I feel so annoyed that I trusted them and they’ve ruined my body and my sex life. It’s so frustrating and upsetting can anyone help?!:,(

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    • Well, I don’t know if this’ll line up with your situation, but I’ve heard it said that “the answer to pollution is dilution.” This was talking about the environment, but I think it might also apply to general life. Trying to get more good things in your life maybe would help. It’s got to be its own thing, though- because if it’s some kind of a mission of counteraction it’ll probably keep reminding you of what you’re counteracting & just keep pissing you off.

      Something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately is that when fucked-up things happen, it’s kind of like a portrait with a cigarette burn in it & adding new “paint” can have a bit of sharp edge to it. This “paint” might be something that gets you to thinking “Where was that earlier?” or it has a bite because of the contrast (you get to thinking about what it’s not). That or it feels tragic in some way, like good people falling off a cliff & landing on jagged rocks or something- that it has that “aw, it’s such a shame” bite to it.

      Again, I don’t know if any of this applies to you, but it sounds like this was an abusive situation (and the don’t make a big habit of telling people about risks, inaccuracies, or alternatives with anything). Overall, deception vitiates consent- it’s not someone making their own decisions if someone else is lying to them. Things like this can have a severe effect, even if it wasn’t an ostentatious situation.

      One more thing: I remember hearing that, similar to being drunk, what someone’s state is comes out. Maybe it’s not their personality, as such, but the state that they’re in at the moment. This could always be more of a background thing, than a surface-level thing.

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    • Hannah

      How long ago did you have the biopsy? I take it you mean a colposcopy and biopsy, not a cone biopsy. I assume you’re American, I doubt any competent Australian or UK doctor would refer a woman for a biopsy after a low grade change, but know some American doctors still refer women for minor changes. If you’re under 30 as well, an “abnormal” pap is very likely, a false positive caused by transient and harmless infections or the pap picking up normal changes in the maturing cervix. This is why an evidence based program does not test before age 30.
      Women often experience sexual issues after a biopsy or treatment, sometimes it’s psychological, a feeling of being “dirty” or just put off after finding the treatment traumatic, embarrassing, painful, invasive etc. Also, if your cervix is still healing or has some scarring this may be causing you pain/discomfort, that could certainly prevent an orgasm.
      You’re not alone, a lot of women end up worse off after these treatments and biopsies, my younger sister had an unnecessary cone biopsy. She was told that might cause issues if she wanted to have children. (she was told after the procedure)
      It should be a scandal that women are pressured and misled into this testing,and early and over-screening, that so often leads to excess biopsies etc….all with no informed consent and often, there is no consent at all. (for example: you must have a pap test if you want the Pill)

      Reply
      • I’m in the UK. I’m 25. I waited a month after the biopsy till I had sexual intercourse again. When it was painful I thought it must be too soon. It was another month or so again and I’d pretty much forgotten about having it, till again painful sex and can’t come anymore. Have you heard stories like this before? I only found one saying she lost sensation and it’s been 5 years etc..
        The letter I received from the doctor after the biopsy said it hadn’t been very helpful as the important part of my cervix was not represented. But he was sure it all looked fine. And that was it.

40. Actually Hannah…having a quick look on the net, you’re certainly not alone, there are quite a few women looking for answers.
    For some of these women the pain/discomfort lasted weeks, others months, one said a few years. Some were put off sex by the procedure itself, others found sex painful. (so an orgasm is not going to happen, sex should be about pleasure, not pain)
    Aside from psychological issues, some women develop an infection or have inflammation after this procedure, the inflammation is called cervicitis. This could explain pain during intercourse. I couldn’t find any stats, the system doesn’t want to know really, they like to tell us all of these procedures are minor and life-saving.
    Hopefully, things will settle down shortly, otherwise you might need to get some advice.

    It’s a shocking way to treat women, the lifetime risk of colposcopy/biopsy is a huge 77% here in Australia thanks to over-screening and early screening…note the lifetime risk of cc is only 0.65%
    A remote risk should not mean most women having something “done” to their cervix.
    The cervix is there for a reason and should be respected and protected.
    So sorry you have been negatively impacted by this testing. I’d urge you though to do some reading about this testing, then you can make decisions from an informed position, IMO, we cannot trust the official discourse in women’s cancer screening.

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    • Thanks for your reply. Possibly it’s an infection as after intercourse I’m really swollen up to my chest for a few hours after. So wish id found this site before. Obviously the first ten-20 sites are all pro biopsy etc. It makes me so angry. So with these other woman did any of them say the pain went away do you know? I’d really like to know if it did. Thank you.

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      • Could be inflammation* even

41. I am 34 and I am a virgin. When I joined the military back in 2003 I was forced to get pap smears. I do not have a history of drugs or alcohol nor have I ever taken birth control as I do not support pharmaceutical companies. I hated every last one of them. One doctor treated me brutal and ripped my hymen and states he did it so I would not feel pain if I ever have sexual intercourse. What right does he have exactly? I called and reported to the female nurse and she said he had to get in there to see if I have anything. How does a female say that to another female. I am not satisfied with this so-called continuity of care between female doctors/nurses and female patients. I have never had good experiences with any of them.

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    • There is no reason for a pap smear for a woman who is not sexually active. Period. he had no right whatsoever to do that to you. If a pap was done to determine any STDs which is stupid to dobbcause hello! You’re a virgin then they could have tested through blood. Unbelievable these doctors do crap like this! Sorry you had to have such a horrible experience.

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    • They had no right to do that.

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    • He did what?? I assume there was no informed consent? If I were you, I would see a medical malpractice lawyer ASAP and even ask about criminal charges for sexual assault. He had NO right! You MUST give informed consent for any procedure. Informed consent the patient must have knowledge of all the relevant facts, including risks, benefits, and alternative treatments. This is sickening, and I am so sorry that happened to you.

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    • That’s something I had mentioned a long time ago (forcing penetrative situations in the military). Do you know if they try to lock people up for refusing things like that in the military? I know they try to “connect the dots” in some way you’re systemically destroying the military with pretty much anything, but is preventing their probing considered a crime?

      Speaking of which, there are books by Lars G. Petersson on this subject that you might want to read- if nothing else it seems to call things for what they are.

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    • I’m sorry that this happened to you. These types of situations make me sick. I am almost your age (and a virgin) and I narrowly escaped a situation like this. I visited a clinic for an x-ray on a broken bone, also in 2003. They asked “have you had a pap smear?” I said, “no, but I’m abstinent”. The nurse then rolled her eyes as if she didn’t believe it and yelled into a room at another nurse to prepare the room for a pelvic exam. My mother overheard this and said “but she is a virgin, there is no need right now”. Again, the nurse rolled her eyes. My mother then said, “she is here for an x-ray; when will she be seen?” The nurse replied “we cannot do anything until she gets the pelvic exam”. My mother and I both looked at each other and practically ran out of the clinic. I could hear the noises of the speculums in the background and I know that they were seriously going to force me to do this. On top of being a virgin, I was extremely sheltered at the time, so I didn’t really even know that I had a hymen or anything about s_x under than that it was something that men and women undress to do, so I would have been devastated once I’d realized what they’d done.

      In the years that have followed, I have faced similar situations and narrowly avoided them. One thing that stands out in my mind is when doctors and nurses try to tell me that a “hymen is not a sign of virginity”. For those that are religious, even the Bible alludes to women having a hymen on their wedding nights, so I don’t understand the reasons that they try to act as if it means nothing. Some doctors have also tried to say that some women don’t have one anyway, so might as well let them look inside. My answer for that is, very few women are born without one and very few women lose it before intercourse. There have even been research results that found that when female children are assaulted very young, the hymen seals itself back together to prepare her for her first “wanted” intercourse as an adult. How miraculous!

      Reply
      • Hymens, if broken when a girl is young, do not grow back anymore than a leg will if a girl has a leg cut off when young. Trust me. I’m aware of that having been molested as a toddler. Now, there are other ways that a hymen may be broken which do not involve penetration, including exercise or being jostled, such as horseback riding. If done carefully with a small enough object, such as a tampon, some women will have a hymen.

        Yes, the Bible says that the “proof” of a girl’s/bride’s virginity is her hymen, and the blood on the bedding would serve as proof is the husband later claimed that she was not a virgin on their wedding night. I’m sure that many women were wrongly accused simply because they did not bleed (sufficiently).I don’t want to argue about the Bible, but that passage is just not true.

        That all being said, you do NOT need a pap if you have never had sex. Period. It doesn’t matter that the nurse disbelieves you. If you’re there to get an x-ray, being pap coerced at the same time is just a matter of “upselling”, and getting more money from you (or any 3rd party payer) for the pap, and the other testing from false positives along with the thrill of forcing someone, and (if a man) the sexual titillation. You (and your Mom) did right by leaving when they wouldn’t take “no” for an answer. Even if you had not, coercion negates consent, and if you would have been forced into a pelvic to get treatment for something else, that would constitute rape.

        Even if you don’t have a hymen. Even if “you” had had sex with one person or 100 people. No one has a right to penetrate any woman without consent, virgin, hymen, or not! Pelvic exams too nonspecific to be of much use, and pap testing is of no use whatsoever.

42. So, I had a pap done in JUNE 2014 it came back abnormal LSIL HPV POSITIVE I was recommended to see a gyn. After insurance issues I was FINALLY able to see a new doctor in April 2015 my pap this time came back ASCUS HPV positive high risk. The doctor (female) called me in for consult. I went in today for my consult only to arrive and asked to get undressed. OK??? I started asking the assistant questions as why I would need to undress for consult? She said after the doctor talks to you she will do a colposcopy. After asking her all know nds of questions after seeing all the tools that were covered up for me not to see, the only question she could answer for me was if the procedure would hurt…she said no, its like small pinches. When asked if iI would bleed she said “light spotting” while I’m looking at oversized kotex on the counter. When asked about risks…she said “none” I go onto read a paper she wanted me to sign, low and behold shall I begin to run a fever over 100 go to the E.R., if I have bleeding the dies not stop or overflows the pad within an HOUR go to the E.R. are these not risks?
    ME: I asked what type of HPV Strain do I have?
    HER: The test does not determine which one.
    ME: (After seeing a some stuff that looked like iodine) Is that Iodine? I’m allergic to iodine.
    HER: no its an iodine mixture.
    ME: Can you look at my file IM ALLERGIC TO IODINE!
    HER: OH.
    I finally got tired of her and asked to get the doctor as she was being no help at all.
    The doctor finally comes in and I start asking all the questions. How many biopsies? Which strain of HPV? Are there alternatives to a colposcopy? Will this hurt? Why do I need a colposcopy when you haven’t even Consulted with me? No answers! I asked is my pap still low grade (LSIL) She just shook her head yes, she did NOT tell me my most recent pap came back ASCUS (which I found out when I had to demand a printout).
    I finally just said I don’t think I’m ready to do this right now, my anxiety is through the roof, I’m not comfortable, and none of my questions could be answered, no I will not agree to you cutting parts of my cervix and you can’t even give me an average of how many biopsies are necessary. She said ok and walked out of the room after giving her assistant A LOOK, I left. Maybe I let my emotions get the best of me but I prefer a doctor to answer all my questions regardless of how important or how silly.
    Now I kinda regret not getting it done because I want to know what is going on with my body, and is this colposcopy procedure really that painful as I have read?

    Reply
    • That is lack of informed consent. She didn’t even ask you first. This is why I don’t go for well woman cheeks. It seems to be they push dangerous tests at woman with out are knowlage. It makes me so madd.

      Reply
      • I know I was so upset! There was no consult I had to ask her questions because she offered nothing! Then she seemed upset that I wanted to know. Any real doctor would not roll their eyes and give looks to their assistant the way she was. Even after I. Said I’m nervous and really don’t think I’m ready for this she said OK and walked out. I feel if it was a necessary procedure she would have assured me that this was something really important that needs to be done. I got nothing but an OK and a eye roll. The assistant didn’t even come back in after I was done getting dressed.

    • Sessa, you done the right thing by walking out. The doctor acted unethical, did not answer your questions and even concealed important facts from you about the regression of the abnormality. The medical employees often behave like this to catch the confused patient there and then, and not net them to go away, do their own research and refuse the harmful procedure. Unfortunately, women’s health care is all about profits, not about women’s health.

      Another danger of biopsies is that if you do have a superficial HPV infection, you still have a good chance to clear it out, but once they do a biopsy, the virus will get deeper in the cervix tissue and the body will be less likely to fight it off. Which means that the doctor will get a reason to do a more invasive “treatment” and make even more money.

      Reply
43. sessa,

    Step back and take a deep breath…..

    ASCUS simply means there were atypical cells of undetermined significance present, it is considered mildly abnormal and does not mean that you have an immediate risk of cervical cancer. In fact, most common causes of ASCUS are non-cancerous conditions such as infections or inflammation

    An ASCUS result may be due to changes in the cervical cells caused by HPV infection, but in most cases, these cervical changes do not progress to cervical cancer.

    IMOH the doctor was wrong in trying to railroad you into an immediate colposcopy – she should have the scheduled conversation with you then discussed the options and given you time to digest the information in order to be able to make an informed decision. In fact, ASCCP guidelines favor HPV DNA testing for adult women with ASCUS Pap results as the next step, not an immediate colposcopy and biopsy.

    See the following web site for more info……..
    http://cervicalcancer.about.com/od/screening/a/ASCUS_pap.htm

    Hex

    Reply
44. Hi Sessa. I believe you were nearly a victim of over treatment. They acted like this to rush you through before you had time to step back and get the full facts. Bad medicine. Even by their actions you described I sensed something wasn’t right. I’ve read a lot of articles on this over the past few months. There is a strong chance you have grade one lesions or even two or three. They will more than likely go away on there own. if you are young this is probably what it is. That is why in some countries they only begin testing at 30. Even me now at 50 because of menopause changes in cells will have exactly the same result that is why it is not safe for me to have paps either. If you still feel paps are for you have one in another year if not have a HPV blood test. From what I have read even if it was cervcial cancer it takes along time to develop so there is no need to panic yourself in to being forced into rash and unwise decisions. The best person on this subject is Elizabeth who posts from Australia. Perhaps you could read her past posts.

    Reply
    • I am 33 and I tried to ask them basic questions, usually comply with the doctors when it came to paps, as my old doctor would only do one every few years. When I asked the new doc why would I have to get this done when I never had to have it done before? She snapped back and said well you are not in your 20’s anymore and I won’t be able to fight off the HPV like younger people. I did have a yeast infection and I specifically asked her would the yeast affect any part of the test or my result? She said why would it. That’s when I just got tired of it, I did not go there to get treated like that when I was just asking important questions. She didn’t even tell me my LSIL changed to ASCUS. Unbelievable.

      Reply
      • That’s bull its all about money.

      • ASCUS can be wrongly diagnosed when there is a yeast infection (Candida). Here is a research paper. http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?rh11015
        I would really love to read a paper showing that older women (not old at age 33) cannot fight off HPV.

        take care of the yeast infection then the HPV. Please get some good multivitamins with zinc, take some epsom salt baths and maybe make and use some coconut oil and green tea extract vaginal suppositories (1 tbsp oil to 1 capsule of GTE) to help with the HPV problem.

      • Thank you I will definitely get some good vitamins and read into the article. Since I was 17 I’ve always had abnormal paps I’ve never had a normal pap result ever. Hopefully the vitamins will help in the process. I was given diflucan 1 day for yeast I take a second dose tomorrow just in case the first one wasn’t effective.

    • Thank you, I will go back and read her posts. I’ve read up on a lot of articles and the more I read, the more relaxed I am I did not go through with the colposcopy.

      Reply
45. I read that a yeast infection or even tampon or condom use can cause abnormal paps. They seem to keep woman ignorant and use this to there advantage. More tests equals more money.

    Reply
    • I continuously get yeast infection from everything including my period, I got tested, for diabetes just to be safe as rrecurring yeast infections can be a sign of diabetes but nope, my old doctor said I can just be sensitive to the blood, I’ve never used tampons only pads which bother too smh woman problems definitely!

      Reply
46. I’m 30 by the way and never had a PSP smear and I’m living just fine.

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47. Pap

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    • Kleigh I’m 51 and am still alive and kicking 15 years after my last smear. I won’t be having breast screening either!! Since I came on here I’ve discovered just how useless the tests are and feel so much better for it.
      We are an amazing community of women!!

      Reply
48. sessa darling try a supplement called biofilm defense by kirkman labs…long story short persistent infections can be caused by something called biofilm- that’s when bacteria/microorganisms group together and secrete materials that encase them so they are beyond the reach of normal antibiotics/antifungals…this supplement contains several enzymes and compounds that can break the biofilm and flush it from your body. I started taking it recently after antibiotics failed to completely cure a uti and I am feeling much better! I got a bottle of 60 on ebay for $25. give it a shot 🙂

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49. Rogue doctors are deliberately tricking healthy women into unnecessary radical hysterectomies by fabricating cancer and other non-existent problems. BEWARE OF GYNAECOLOGISTS! You may be the one in three women to go to your grave without your female organs…

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    • Hi June. I would hate to live in a country where going to the Gyno is as routine as going shopping. These people are terrible. I keep reading about them on the internet. Cutting out anything they can find, molesting young girls in so called teen exams, helpinh themselves to women’s vaginas all day long. Christ. I always wanted to live on America when I was young i’m glad i don’t. I think i’m badly done to having had seven unwanted rapes (paps) But the average American could have a minimum of 26. I think my vagina would be sagging at the seams. American women are the most abused women on the planet. You must try help stop it.

      Reply
      • Are woman are brainwashed that they “need” to live at the gynos office. It never made since to me. Common since tells me that every woman is not going be be any healthier for letting a doctor prob them every year.

      • I’m suprised that you wanted to go from the U.K. to America. I guess I was right in thinking that the U.K. isn’t quite as bad as America with that whole having a problem with bodily autonomy. Not great, from the sound of it, but not as bad.

        I notice & can’t help but reflect on how it seems really common that Anglo & Germanic countries tend to be more inclined toward things like this. Doesn’t have to be imposed probing, specifically- it just seems that they are very affirmative of extrapersonal orchestration of situations where there is some kind of interface with sexual areas. Doesn’t even have to be medicine, come to think of it.

        Whether through direct force (ex: delivery room) or through subtle tactics (ex: coercion with birth control, saying things like “need, must, have to”), they are very inclined toward situations of third-party comportment of a situation so as to generate visual access to or physical contact with sexual area.

        I know, I know- that kind of thing can always happen in other countries & all that sounds racist- but I just keep noticing the same trend. It’s a wonder to me that the people in this country talk shit about the middle east & the kind of stuff that goes on there. They even notice subtle things like virginity tests (on men AND women, potentially). Yet, in America, they just feel like those same dynamics are fine.

      • I totally agree with you Linda. Australia is right up there as the most medically abused women as 2 in 5 women are given hysterectomies by the time they are 65……. Ninety percent are totally unnecessary, but they will NEVER stop as the whole corrupt system protects the doctors who do this to women, and do everything to discredit the patients and labels them as paranoid. It outrages me to know that so many women are medically abused in this country.

50. Linda
    Dr Joel Sherman’s wife had more than 40 pap tests, and I assume pelvic and breast exams, and possibly rectal exams. He was unaware just how rare cc actually was and how often it led to excess biopsies and over- treatment. He, like many others, just accepted this was all essential preventative healthcare.
    On his forum on Patient Privacy many women posted references, he read them and as a result he wrote, “Informed consent is missing from cervical screening” it appeared on the Kevin MD site and in the WSJ. His wife discussed our research with her gyn who agreed she could stop having the exams and test. (think she was high 60s at the time) You have to wonder though whether he would have arrived at that conclusion if she hadn’t raised the subject in such an informed way. Now this woman’s husband was a cardiologist yet she was being seriously over-screened and over-examined. It goes to show how well accepted it was that these exams were essential, many doctors were also, misled…and it seems didn’t research the topic for themselves, they were so sure it was all essential, they’d never heard anything else.

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    • Hi Eliz. If I was this poor woman, I would be very ill. Quite honestly Eliz, I actually would have killed myself by now. Why so many? I don’t think she had been medically looked after at all – I think she has been tortured for her entire life. And a doctors wife too, so she won’t have been stupid – probably qualified in something in her own right. I feel like bursting into tears for the sheer right to privacy and dignity she has never ever experienced. She will go to her grave knowing her body has never been her own. Words can’t describe how angrey i feel. And you know how angry I am at my treatment.

      Reply
      • It’s fairly common with American and German women, Linda. (and a few other nationalities) Up until fairly recently American women were tested annually, and often starting when they were teenagers, so add them up, by the time you’re 60 or 70, that’s a lot of testing, and these women usually end up losing some of their healthy cervix too.

        An article by Dr Richard DeMay (it’s old now) stated that annual testing made it almost a certainty that most women would end up with a false positive, it was 95% of women or similar. Many of these women went on to have a colposcopy/biopsy or “treatment”…the removal of “pre-cancerous” cells.

        Click to access S48.full.pdf

        “Should we abandon pap smear testing” (you can imagine my shock when I found this article, it was an outrageous suggestion, but the author is careful to cover himself)

        “Because we may have reached a point of diminishing returns with Pap smear
        screening and because of unreasonable and unachievable expectations, let me play devil’s advocate and suggest that we should consider abandoning this test.”

        Dr Sherman seemed to play down the privacy and dignity aspect of over-screening saying his wife wasn’t too bothered by the exams after having 4 children. (not an exact quote, but something like that was said) I hear that so often, I think it says a lot about childbirth if after the event women are more accepting of invasive exams.
        Our dignity and privacy should always matter, whether we’ve had 4 children or not.

        I think he certainly appreciated the risk with over-testing though, and the lack of informed consent in the testing process. (in the States even consent itself was/is often missing)
        I was over-joyed when he wrote that article, he could have done nothing like everyone else, but he put himself out there. The comments to the article are very interesting, I think it was the first opportunity for many women to speak honestly about this testing.

        Dr Sherman also, contacted an American gynecologist and challenged her when she closed a thread on her website when women started sharing real information, admitting they don’t have/want testing etc. It was too threatening for her and she shut us down. Interesting, she feels differently about breast screening, she had the opportunity to share her views on the Kevin MD site. I wonder how she would have felt if others had concluded she had no right to challenge breast screening and refused to publish her article or removed it from the site.
        I don’t go to her site anymore, she’s quick to delete posts, I lost one after I mentioned the Delphi Screener, she felt I might have a commercial interest in the product and deleted my entire post….when in fact she could have just deleted the bit on self testing. I got the impression she was engaging in censorship, she did not want women (and her patients) having access to real information and being alerted to HPV self testing. (and the significance of being HPV-) It seemed to me she was protecting her business, not women.
        I have no respect for doctors who think they have the right to block access to real information. I don’t visit Dr Sherman’s site very often these days, but I’m forever grateful for his open mind and his efforts to correct some of the massive wrongs that have been done to women. (including IMO, to his wife)

51. My drs would not help me with hormone education or treatment for years. They just kept bullying me for an endometrial biopsy i kept refusiing. They finally deckined being ny doctors and sent me to a another sr who said he would talk to me about hormone replacement if i did a pap smear. I reluctantly agreed and during my visit he performed something that was not a pap. I saw a large piece of tissue dropped in a cup after extreme pain enough to make me jump up freim the table. Hard scraping and made to cough while he viewed me from across the room. Iits five months now ive had heavy bleeding. Searing pain burning and open insides. My vagina is just hanging open. Periods are much different.

    Reply
    • Oh, what a nightmare, I’m so sorry to hear of your ordeal, Ruined.
      That certainly doesn’t sound like a pap test, did he do a biopsy? Were you given results or any sort of explanation? Heavy bleeding and 5 months after the “procedure”, that’s concerning.
      I’d be lodging a complaint with the medical association and I’d probably also, speak to a lawyer. Evidence is always difficult in these cases, he said/she said and also, doctors often argue we misunderstood what was to be done, although it would be hard to argue you could mistake a pap test with a biopsy.
      So many women harmed by a medical profession that feels entitled to override consent and do as they please with our bodies. It seems some still believe the female body belongs to others, is common property.

      Reply
    • Sounds like the guy mangled you! He shouldn’t have been trying to barter with you in the first place. I know this is going to sound cruel, but this is why they need to be enslaved.

      Not to get off-topic, but unless I’m greatly mistaken, the Romans did exactly that & it probably wasn’t right BACK THEN, but now- I’m not so sure. Definitely don’t mimick them entirely, but perhaps in some things. Someone pulls some shit like that, you can cut & carve him as you may- execution by castration.

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52. I wish I never ever had Dr (moderated) do my Pap smears. She had a hidden agenda. She targeted healthy women and deliberately fabricated they had something wrong with them, and sold them out to have their healthy female organs slaughtered out of them. She fabricated non-existent polyps, non-existent bleeding and scarring, and sends them to unscrupulous gynaecologists of her choosing for a kickback. The hysterectomy racket is rampant and makes gynaecologists very, very rich. BEWARE WOMEN EVERYWHERE!…. NEVER TRUST GYNAECOLOGISTS WHO USE THE CANCER SCARE TO FRIGHTEN YOU INTO AN UNNECESSARY RADICAL HYSTERECTOMY.

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53. I have had 3 or 4 paps since the birth of my baby which showed HPV and were abnormal. I have done the follow ups as recommended, and just had my 2nd colposcopy. This one showed CIN 3 cells with severe dysplasia. I am being advised by Obgyn to have the treatment with Cervugid Ovules. So I started the treatment with Cervugid Ovules. This treatment is done in 6 courses (6boxes). One ovule per night for 12nights (1 course). After the first box I had a break for 7days and I started with the second box (second course), after the second box I had again a break for 7day and I started with the third box (third course). After doing 3 courses, the doctor advised me to repeat the treatment after 6 months of break again with 3 courses.
    I was very lucky that after 6 courses of Cervugid Ovules, I did again all medical tests and my PAP test came back to normal and the HPV test came negative and the cells were cured. I’m so I’m happy that i got rid of HPV high risk which can lead to cervical cancer.

    Reply
    • Cervugid ovules are a Romanian pharmaceutical that costs about $105 per three pack. It is a combination of three antibacterial and antifungal compounds. The manufacturer or seller might claim that it is effective against HPV infections but these same compounds are usually prescribed for most common vaginal and cervical infections anyway. There have been no studies that show these compounds prevent cervical cancer. .?. If there is please post up the link to it. I have to wonder if the there is a trend now for doctors to be making money off of prescribing this.

      For the woman whose doctors says she has warts she cannot see, swab some plain white vinegar down there (might sting). Any warts will show up white against the pink skin. But likely if you cannot see them neither could the doctor. But your HPV test might say you had a strain that was not included in the vaccine (only 4 strains for the vaccine). Anyway most warts will go away on their own after a few months and at most after two years.

      Reply
54. In November I went in for my annual testing. I received a positive result for a high risk pool of HPV. I did not test positive for the 2 main high risk strains. My pap test came back normal with no changes. The Dr I have seen for the past 4 years wanted me to schedule a colposcopy , which I did. My Dr unfortunately had an injury and after several reschedules I opted to be seen by another Dr. to get the colpop over with. I saw the new Dr yesterday and she said she felt the colpop was unnecessary because my pap test was normal. I asked why one dr would say do the colpop and another would say “don’t fix something that’s not broken” and she said it was just different philosophies. I don’t know if I should call my normal Dr and let hem know this or if I should have gone ahead with the testing? I can;t say I wasn’t happy to not have this test but it seems weird that it would be so contradictory within the same practice.

    Reply
    • Do you know the saying “Many lies lie between one truth”?
      Cervical cancer screening program is exactly that: there are myriad of lies about how common this cancer is, how often women must do pap smears, whether the cosposcopy and biopsy needs to be done after a positive test, how many lives the screening saves,… etc etc.

      The one truth is: cervical cancer is extremely rare, screening does more harm than good, there has been no scientific evidence that this screening has ever been safe and effective, the wast majority of women are over-diagnosed and harmed by this program, and the doctors are discouraged to tell the truth to their patients by design of this program which has always been focused around “capture” and steady income stream.

      “Don’t fix something that isn’t broken”. Though, the problem is that too many women have been broken into thinking that they must do these tests in order to save themselves from cervical cancer death.

      Reply
    • Hi epd
      I don’t know your age or where you live, but under an evidence-based program, HPV+ women aged 30 to 60 will be offered a 5 yearly pap test. (until they test HPV-)
      Some countries go overboard and refer HPV+ women for immediate colposcopy/biopsy, IMO, that’s overkill.
      Note: HPV testing should always stand alone. The Americans do pap testing and HPV testing at the same time on women aged 30+…this provides no additional benefit to women, but generates the most over-investigation.
      You can test yourself for HPV (no need for speculum exams) and note HPV testing is not recommended before age 30, too many young women would be caught.
      About 40% of women aged under 30 are HPV+..these are transient and harmless infections that will clear in a year or so.
      Only about 5% of women test HPV+ at age 30 and older, these are the only women who should be offered a 5 yearly pap test.
      A lot of damage could be avoided if we followed the evidence and respected informed consent.
      HPV Today, Edition 24, sets out the new Dutch program, it’s an evidence-based program, you may find it of interest.

      Reply
55. Wow, thank you for this. I went to a private practice doctor for a while until she told me I had HPV after initially dropping my pap vial. She took another sample on my already scraped cervix. I went home and awaited results and she called me to say I had genital warts and HPV. I looked down there with a mirror, did not see anything. I took her medicine that hurt, had my fiance swab my vaginal folds only for him to say “I don’t see anything. I don’t think you have it.”

    Of course she denied she was wrong. Denied giving me a repap. I never got tested anywhere else because I knew I was fine. Well that just goes to show you how crooked doctors can be. She also gave me the Gardasil shots telling me it prevented HPV only to tell me I got HPV.

    Tell me what doesn’t make sense here….lol. Yeah, so I know firsthand of the damages some doctors do. I know colposcopies and biopsies also can lead to more damage to tissue as well. Now in some cases they are wrong, but when a situation doesn’t quite add up use your head and think. Doctors make mistakes and some often don’t wish to speak up on it.

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    • Doctors sometimes outright attack people, too- and often don’t wish to speak about it. In truth I think they feel that they totally decide what they do at work & can do anything without it constituting a problem. Much like a mechanic thinking they can stick a wrench up someone’s ass if they are in the garage.

      Sorry if that was crass- but it IS accurate.

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56. https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2015/08/03/how-do-we-help-people-decide-if-screening-is-the-right-choice-for-them/

    There has been another good posting on this website. Good to see that others are following the discussion.

    Reply
    • This is what many women experience year after year for most of their life, Annie Mackie and others can “say” screening is a choice, we can refuse, but it means literally nothing while women continue to face this sort of pressure every time they see a doctor.
      They KNOW this goes on…if they were serious about respecting choice, they’d scrap screening targets and target payments to GPs and the offensive campaigns used to scare or urge women to screen. Here in Australia, we have a retired sportswoman and journalist urging us to have breast screening, as if that’s respecting informed consent, do they really think I’m going to screen because Jo Hall thinks it’s a good idea? It’s plain offensive, an insult to our intelligence. It’s THAT sort of thinking that needs to change, viewing women as people, not objects/mere bodies.

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      • Men don’t go to doctors at all which is why there are not target incentives to screen for prostate cancer for them.

    • I have placed a comment on the PHE site to Helena inviting her here. Because of accusations I’ve made on the site I don’t normally get past the checking elves. Perhaps one of you could try and let her know about us. She seems very angry.

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57. I know it’s not much but I posted a reply to the lady, Helena, pointing out my previous post and how Ann Mackie detailed how to remove oneself from it which I was surprised to ses up just a few hours later so hopefully she will be able to get herself off the lists.
    It’s shocking, they obviously do know what goes on, we have choice as long as we choose to screen!! But hopefully the tide is turning now. Until then as Eliz says it’s business as usual at surgery level.

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    • Sorry that post from anonymous was mine! My wi fi and tablet acting up.. Kat rehman!

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58. That’s great Kat. I posted yesterday but they never put any of my posts up. Its because many months ago … well you can guess what I accused them of… I was so annoyed about 4pm this afternoon that I went back on the site and well just basically let them have it. So I deff am blacklisted now. I know i’m over the top but i just can’t help myself some days. I would go to the doctor over my anger management issues but … i’m ‘overdue’ you see.

    Hi Torrence. You are doing great keep up the good work. Your comments will reach someone somewhere. I read them all they were having a good go at you. Stand firm. Be strong. This is very important work you are doing. That kid is a creep and at his age will only get progressively worse.

    Hi Ada. I looked at our communal book today and changed something I thought was important. I put the ‘bibliography’ at the end of your piece rather than it being at the end of the book. It was a terrific bit of writing and a lot of effort put in so i thought to make this change was only right. It will take a few days for the changes to show.

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    • Hi Linda! The problem really is that for decades, women have been brainwashed. What’s worse is that women DO have a sixth sense that we all KNOW when something is wrong or at least amiss. With so many women despising unnecessary exams, why can’t they put the correlation together that if they are uncomfortable, then something IS wrong? It got to the point where I barked at doctors who kept badgering me to submit to their gruesome exams: “Is it a LAW that I have to have this done?!” They’d look so taken aback. It’s a wonder they didn’t LIE and say it IS a law. I am so furious over this horrible topic.

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    • Ann Mackie replied bleating as usual about choice. Linda.. U do a great job. I’m amazed I’ve not been banned off that site. I had a few good rants myself! Together we’ll all get through it! Thinking of u.. And all the other ladies out there x

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59. Hi Torrence. Some days I get so annoyed i’m sure i’m heading for a ‘stroke’ you are right about us being intrinsically knowledgable when something isn’t right.

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60. Hi…I live in Ontario Canada and last year went for what I thought would be a usual Pap smear…I heard about a new Gynaecologist and asked my doctor to send me to her. When I got there she told me that I had thickening of my uterus walls and wanted to do a biopsy. I had no idea it would be so painful!! So we did that there in her office and I could barely walk when it was over…anyway, to make a long story short, I ended up in the hospital with an infection for a few days. The doctors at the hospital were great and when one of the doctors that worked with the Gynaecologist that I went to came in its as if the doctors at the hospital made him apologize for the doctor that did my biopsy…I never wanted to blame the Gynaecologist to start with even though I felt that she could have at least warned me about the pain! Anyway when I needed to go back and have the other side done, as I have 2 uteruses, I asked my family doctor to send me to a different doctor…they apparently contacted someone else that works with that particular Gynaecologist and she was adamant with my doctor that she wouldn’t see me because I was her colleagues patient…so I became adamant that I wanted a different doctor…one who had more experience so my doctor sent me to another that I had mentioned…this doctor was fantastic but unfortunately in the process of retiring but he had me see his partner and I am under his care at the moment and have to keep going back for colposcopies to keep a eye on my hpv as I had an irregular Pap smear…sorry this is so long…but the gist of all this Is I started using a new family doctor that my girlfriend recommended and little did I realize she works for the same group of clinics that the original Gynaecologist, and as my new Gynaecologists also works for and I didn’t know that…and the last time I went to see her she came in the room to see me and gave me this strange look…it bothered me…now I know how paranoid this sounds…but I think the original Gynaecologist said something to her and now I am wondering if I will be treated fairly. The only reason I changed family doctors is because my girlfriend said she was so great and just loved her and it took almost 3 weeks to get in to see my doctor and I find that to be unacceptable. Now I am worried…I don’t know what to do. I don’t know if I trust her and wonder if I should or even could go back to my original family doctor or not.

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    • Medical profession in USA they all stick together. The suposed “oversight” for each profession is a group members who suposedly hold eachother to high standards BUT being PROFIT driven and greed rules in this system It just means them against us. Find someone via web who is NOT afiliated and explain to him/her that its more about having a 2nd opinion and comfort level. If they feel you are privy to your sisters medical info and both talk about things this is a threat since can expose real issues like overprescribed tests and inaccurat results that cause unnecessary surgeries its all typical part of the territory of medical world. Also a “Female” caregiver doesnt equate to SAFE or honest in healthcare either or anywhere for that matter. We are all different so who is great for your friend or sister may not be the same for you. They may treat you very differently for their own personaly reasons.

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      • As I stated above, I am not in the U. S…..I am in Canada….I am still having issues with this! My Gynogologist did a D & C a few months ago on both Uterus’ and I felt great afterwards until about a month later then I got another infection. Same one that sent me to the hospital the first time! But this time it seemed to be my bladder. I was on different antibiotics for over a month and still had issues! So my family doctor sent me to a Urologist…it takes so long up here to get anything done!! The Urologist had me on a special antibiotic that I had to take once every 10 days for 3 months. Just finished a few weeks ago and I feel pretty good but still seem to have issues with my bladder now. I am 60 years old and never had these kinds of issues until now! I would rather the Gynogologist just had done a hysterectomy but he wouldn’t do it. Still having to go back every 6 months for a Colposcopy! I think it’s just so they can make more money off me! I just don’t know….

61. This is absolute trash. The reason that cervical cancer rates are now so low IS BECAUSE OF THE D*MN PAP SMEAR. it’s caught early when it’s still called a ‘dysplasia’ that basically means precancerous cells. They’re then treated so it never progressed to full blown cervical cancer henceforth the cancer rates are now so low. Yes there is a high false positive rate but screening tests should have a high false positive rate bc they’re designed to be sensitive not specific. They pick up on anything strange and alert you everything isn’t A-OK. This is considered better than a high rate of false negatives where you’re told that you’re okay when in all actuality you have cancer. And in terms of the pleasure aspect, the majority of OB’s are now Hetero women and besides, being in medical school, there’s a lot easier ways to ‘get pleasure’ than putting yourself hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and signing away your 20’s. Please don’t listen to this article. It’s comparable to thinking the flu vaccine gives autism.

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    • Dear Dr. Real, it is you that is talking trash. Almost everything you’ve stated in your post is false.
      Cervical cancer was never a common disease – the high figures from the pre-Pap days which are quoted by American Medics refers to Uterine cancers, which of course include endometrial cancers. And it took decades before the Pap test was inflicted on the masses, so the decline in the incidence rate after the initial introduction of the test cannot be attributed to it’s use. Correlation is not causation.
      Furthermore, there was a similar decline in incidence in many other countries around the world, including here in the UK, long before the Pap test was introduced.

      The Pap test does not pick up abnormal or pre-cancerous cells, it simply detects changes in cervical skin. These changes can be triggered by anything – injury, chemicals, even hormonal fluctuations – and very rarely signify the early stages of cancer.
      The medical profession have a long history of inventing their own language to distance themselves from ‘the little people’ and appear superior – ‘dysplasia’ and ‘pre-cancer’ are terms created to a) hide the fact that the test is as reliable as a chocolate teapot and b) frighten women into compliance.

      To say that a screening test should have a high false positive rate is ludicrous. Any screening test ought be both sensitive AND specific – this is a test which is designed to detect a disease which takes a minimum of 10 years to develop, yet women in the USA have been told they *need* a pap every year. Other countries recommend every 2 or 3 years. Why? It’s because it has a very low sensitivity, A.K.A. a high rate of false negatives. So bang goes that argument.
      As to the question of specificy, considering that the test cannot distinguish between harmless changes caused by, say chemicals (condoms, lubricants) and genuine disease, I would say the specificy is a big fat zero.

      The only people who profit from a test which has such an appallingly high rate of both false positives and false negatives are doctors and insurance companies. Doctors can push the test more frequently because of the false negative rate, and profit from the false positive rate.

      Don’t give up that bullshit about poor old doctors racking up student debts so that they can offer us ladies such vital services. There are a hell of a lot of people, young and old, who rack up enormous debts in the name of education, it’s not just medical students who struggle.
      At least those who enter the Ob/Gyn industry can be assured of making their money back
      quickly (and then some) thanks to the steady steam of wiling victims lining up to be saved from their evil lady parts.

      I’m also not impressed with the fact that more women are entering the field.
      You concentrate on the issue of sexual gratification. That is only one part of the pleasure
      aspect. There are plenty of bullies in this world, and the medical profession is no exception. In fact, many of us here have been on the receiving end of medical intimidation, from both males and females. So if you’re the type of person who *gets off* on dominating others, medicine is the perfect playing field. Better still, in the speciality of Ob/Gyn, you get to chop up those pesky lady parts under the pretence of *care*!

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      • Well put! I couldnt agree more and couldnt have said it better.

    • The USA healthcare system is profit motivated and healthy women are exploited by Over prescribed “Preventative” medicine for decades. Surgeons hide their faulse claims by eliminating evidence of it. The healthcare system allows coercion with fear of cancer to bully females into useless unnecessary and overprescribed exams. The fact that the insurance co inquiries to validity and percentage of accuracy as well as needed frequency of different test is due to bad economy and best thing that happended to women in this country. The bimanual pelvic exam has very scarce and specifi ues and due to level of technology is deemed usuelss and still preformed The fact of touching someone in seual areas for NO medical purpoes is sexual abuse TRUTH and not understodd by 90 of women, There is proof that there has been for decades an agenda to subject health patients to more than necessary exams for sake of profits alone. unnecessary frequency of tests, exams for steady profit Thats money that would pay for actual sick people. Bimanual Pelvic exam is legally rape since serves NO purpose even for women with symptoms since available technology but this test keeps many women (with history or sex abuse) from going to doctor and have necessary 3 year or less needed pap smears. I have witnessed the unnecessary surgeries and furthure intrusive test due to inacuracy of test. The female body is EXPLOITED big time in this country since greed rules our system. Healthy women have been treated like cattle and coerced by cancer scare subjected to wrong diagnosis and pushed into unnecessary exams and test that are done for money only. The doctors dont always agree with each other but all work fo rthe same system and know better. A wrong diagnosis is quickly covered up by same doctor doing the surgery to remove evidence. The US health care system is corrupt and Hillary almost exposed it with her propsed health care act since the system is more about profit from over prescibed tests and exams for HEALTHY women and fewer men are pressured into preventative tests since non compliant and maybe due to seeing whats going on with women they know. The fact that our system is corrupt is hiden by google censorship by ad funding from mega large institutions influencing that now corrupt search engine. DuckDuckGo bring lots of data and must read articles like the truth about overprescribed test exams. This aspect of society renders women helples to feel confident and safe to live out of a female body. The helplesness women feel due to never getting away from having their body exploited for someone elses gain at their expense emotionally is sad since only in the usa. Healthy women (no symptoms) are where they make their most money under the guise of protecting their health. PCP offices have steady income for yeraly exams so bully into a gyno exams done buy lower paid nurse (not qualified to diagnose) to perform tests since it takes 10mins and adds hundreds to the cost of physical. Insurance Cos have been requesting the validity, frequency, degree of accuracy for preventative exams and testing seriously for over a decade and thank god since the truth of frequency by age and lifestyle is slowing down the over kill and effecting public awareness as to how as women have been being exploited for decades by this system.

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62. I am sooooo grateful for this article today. I am 18 weeks pregnant and had abnormal pap results. That said, I had had sex the night before the test (I was extremely umm excited during my first trimestre), I had also had a yeast infection a couple of weeks before, and I’ve had a urinary tract infection as well. Reading this article has seriously eased my mind – especially since the results went to my doctor about a month ago and he hasn’t called me about it. I am assuming that with all the blood they have taken from me, and all the cups I have peed in, they are not concerned about this at this time.

    I also had a friend who had abnormal pap results awhile back. Turns out it was nothing, and it scared both of us a lot.

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    • So if the doctor doesn’t call you with the results, and the results can be affected by so many factors, then why do the Pap at all?

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    • I have actually read that even a bath can affect the results, never mind normal hormonal changes. Doesn’t this just make a mockery of the whole testing process?

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63. My last exam was to increase the aging process, the state of Michigan has done nothing but rape me since 1988 and 1989 work miscarriages, when my back bone broke, the legislate had moved me to an area that not only works a person, but alters there existence by more rape. Enjoy you loving state, I have one child that has been taken for your north obsession of individuals that feel you can’t sue doctors for unlawful practice.

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64. Worst thing happen to me is sexually abuse by lesbian nurse in prime care office. I went to my dr office for physical intending to skip a pap smear again. But being pushed I agreed under duress since the nurse saw it was overdue 6yrs. I have always had overwhelming negative emotional effects and even more so afterward lasting days – weeks depending on the events. I know that the anguish and emotions instigated are effects called transferance and is due to unresolved past sexual traumas. The hopelessness is due to the feeling that I will forever be submiting or saying yes while feeling NO it sets up the same emotional responsive mode as felt during sex abuse situations. I was hoping the tests could go quick and i knew my body wont agree so it would hurt. I appologized and explained (no details) that it was not about her but I have a hard time with women touching me due to past abuse from both genders and i have anxiety and still afraid. That must have been why she next decided to treat me in a sexual manner throughout the exam. Finally I felt like puking on her. She had turned the entire exam sexual but it took me a while to realize this since just seeing that it was not the same as other times i just had not caught on until she was caresssing my calves up/down and then my inner thighs saying “down, down, down” then I stopped her after touching my “Button” with her fist? I still thinking she was a straight women trying to help me. I felt bad that I was sick about it instead my body clamped shut and she couldnt get the device inside. I made her stop. When I got home my body felt raped I felt very violated. That night on the web I had trying to leave a review that was very vague but to warn others also to see if anyone else replies that the same thing happend to them. I did say she tried to get me to relax but didnt mention sexual behavior. My review didnt show up. But next I saw on the web she is a lesbian since a webpage showed up with photos and its clear and obvious that she is. I wish I got a chance to know that ahead. I feel i have a right to know that. We do all have a right to choose who we are comfortable with. That exam is a very wrong possition to have any woman in if expecting them to respond favorably to a sexual act. This was a sick idea and a sick possition to be in if approached sexually. I cant believe she would be that stupid. Many women favor another women NOT ME, NOT NOW, OR EVER! I want to know about the sexuality of the person with their fingers in my body. Asking gender is not enough now must ask about their sexuality. We have a right to know and decide if we are comforable with a lesbian doing that gyn exam. NO straight women would do that to me but No professional would either.

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65. http://www.naturalnews.com/053981_cancer_screening_psychological_terror_campaign_unnecessary_treatment.html

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