3,978 comments

1. Ro, I could find no evidence to support the rumor that screenings will be mandatory under Obamacare. Insurance companies are required to cover screening based on evidence provided by the U.S. task force. The task force studies research evidence and then provides guidelines on what to screen for and how often to screen. For example, based on the best research evidence, insurance companies are required to provide coverage for pap smears every 3 years. Insurance companies will no longer pay for annual pap smears because research has shown annual pap smears to cause more harm than good.

   Physicians typically ignore recommendations and evidence, and continue to perform pap smears too frequently. They do have a business to run after all. Gilbert Welch provides evidence of the harms that result from over screening, over diagnosis (diagnosing something that is harmless as ‘cancer’), and over treatment (treating/removing/radiating healthy people). Obamacare might help to put an end to unnecessary pap smears as well as other screening that is done inappropriately.

   If I’m remembering correctly, wasn’t it a member of the Republicans who mandated (by law) that pregnant women seeking abortion had to undergo vaginal ultrasound?

   • Thank YOU for setting it up!

   • I hope you’re right and the rumors aren’t true! I certainly hope that Obamacare provides a positive change.

   • Physicians also get sued for not at least recommending treatment. What I observe is the pendulum swinging toward us, as we gain power over others deciding what is best for our bodies.

     As for abortions. The ultrasounds are a bid to get women to reconsider having one performed. It may also diagnose a problem that would seriously complicate the procedure. What we’re never told about abortions is the hacking and killing that women suffer. Femanazis demand abortion on demand regardless of reason or trimester. Nobody has ever discussed the emotional consequences for which women never receive counseling. This I know from friends who’ve had them. We aren’t told that the hormone shock, if repeated, can increase breast cancer. This hormone shock is different than if our bodies miscarry. Our cervix’ also get damaged and may not be able to hold to term a future pregnancy we actually want. Again, I know this thanks to friends. More women get hacked, molested, infected, sterilized, and die each year due to abortions. The law does nothing to prosecute due to rage of being “anti-abortion,” Pure insanity… This doesn’t address that the infant feels pain during the procedure. Its reactions cannot be good for our uterus’ either.

     If you’re gonna have one, get it done early. What I say this time may not be popular, but it is truthful.

   • Cat&Mouse, I believe that every person should be free to decide for their own body. In the modern world, bodily integrity and autonomy is the last bit of freedom we have left. Everything else is controlled, prescribed, made dependent of others, accounted for and put in some database.

     I strongly believe that abortion should be the woman’s decision. The anti-abortion believers like to push the line about emotional consequences and counseling. Such consequences do exist, and women should be notified of them and offered the counseling if they like, but ultimately it should be the women’s decision alone. Safe abortion services should be available on woman’s demand. It’s her body and she should be able to choose as she likes. For as long as the fetus can’t exist outside of the woman’s body, it’s not a separate person. And, therefore, all the religion and politics should be removed from this private matter.

     With all the negative consequences of abortions so colourfully presented by anti-choice followers, the harm is much lesser than being forced to give birth to and unwanted child. You are saying that you knew women who suffered as a result of abortion. I bet everyone knows someone like that. But there are also women who commit suicide when forced to continue the pregnancy. Or those who die while being forced to seek the last resort in illegal abortions. If only they had a choice…

     Once again, I do believe that every private matter should be decided by the individual alone, and the medical system should be assisting with the choice made.

     In Australia, for example, abortions are still in the criminal code. Which is unbelievable for a developed country. Personally, I am shocked by that.

   • Well said Alice. I don’t want to get into an abortion discussion but I see a lot of the anti-abortion arguments as being the same emotional hyperbole that is used to convince women to screen. Women deserve to have bodily autonomy and to hear all of the facts before making a decision. If given all of the facts and allowed to make an informed decision a woman may choose to keep the baby, adoption, or she may choose an abortion. When allowed to make an informed choice and offered support with whatever decision she makes, such as counselling, a lot of the emotional consequences can be mitigated. Abortion is an emotional issue hot-button issue but I see the whole point of this blog as fighting for women to have bodily autonomy and to be given full unbiased information to make informed health care decisions. Someone posted on this blog that studies have found that women in the medical setting are not viewed as equal partners in their healthcare. That has definitely been my experience both in the past and now with doctors. It’s very frustrating. We have the right to make informed decisions about our body.

   • ADM, you are so right! Pro-screen is indeed using the same approach: hide the true facts, deprive women of choice, and don’t let them decide what is going to be done or not done to their own bodies.

     Freedom, above all, consists of bodily autonomy, access to the truth, and making decisions for oneself alone.

     Too often, medical establishment takes some or all of the above from women. That’s why we are here, on this website.

2. This is a great idea. Thanks for setting this up.

3. Alex and Anonymous it was my pleasure, it was a fun and easy post to put together and I agree it was a great idea.

   Ro, I hope I’m right too! I live in Canada but I can tell you I would leave the country if pap smears became mandatory. I have not had a pap for quite some time and I have no intention of having one in the future, but I can remember very well how guilty I felt at first by opting out. The propaganda had done its job well; I was indoctrinated into believing I was being irresponsible and selfish by not having paps. It took some time but now I just feel a deep sense of relief. My cervix and uterus are healthy and intact, and I believe it is because I have never been the victim of a false positive or any of the ‘treatments’ that follow. It is a tragedy that women have been kept misinformed, have had consent withheld, and the overwhelming and persistent onslaught of propaganda has kept so many in constant fear of this rare cancer.

4. This article makes me angry that we have some male gynaecologist saying a good time to have a pap smear is when you are pregnant. I wonder why other countries don’t follow the UK’s lead and recommend not performing them on pregnant women because of the high chance of false positives during pregnancy.
   At least this midwife has spoken out about psychological harms of internal exams. It seems to the first time I have actually read this in some kind of mainstream publication.
   http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/birth/the-ins-and-outs-of-internal-examinations-20130821-2satp.html

   • Mary, he also describes an internal examinaton as ‘quick and easy’. Due to the fact that he is male and has NEVER been on the receiving end of one, how the hell would he know?

     • Quick and easy for HIM! Twat.

   • There is no reason to internally examine a woman from the beginning of a pregnancy until the birth of the baby. Women cannot benefit from them. They are used as a tool for HCPs. If you are not dilating according to their “policies”, you risk a cascade of intervention. Any midwife or doctor worth her or his salt will now how the labour is progressing from observing the mother.

     As for the comment on the link from the MALE gynaecologist, that “paps cannot cause a miscarriage “, I would like to see the evidence to support this. Doctors like this man appear so desperate to control pregnant women by insisting on unnecessary paps and internal exams to give the impression of “care”.

     Most women will not need a doctor throughout their entire pregnancy. They are not ill, but it doesn’t stop gynaecologists like the one in the link undermining a women’s confidence and her ability to give birth. Doctors like him like to swoop in at the last minute to “save” her by performing an unnecessary episiotomy or a c-section. Sadly it happens everyday.

     • Anecdotal evidence would agree with you Anonymous. Paps can and do cause miscarriage/premature birth: http://www.steadyhealth.com/Miscarriage_after_a_pap_smear_t90852.html?page=3

     • Here’s how that goes. You see the md on your 1st preg check. The whole pelvic is your introduction/indoctrination that you need the md to get through the pregnancy. I hate epesiotomies. If a woman is messaged, allowed hot packs, patience to stretch, they aren’t necessary. As for C-section? I’d rather have one than be stretched out to where I’ll never recover. Note to all: Ask to see the different speculums. The small is for virgins or pediatrics, medium for sexually active women, and huge for those given birth. Most penis’ aren’t so large.

       Never consent to vaginal hysterectomies. Guess how stretched out you are for that. Check youtube. Wonder why they’re called hysterectomies? The hysteria is being removed. Thanks male doctors. Men do get their own PMS.

   • I’ve never been able to accept and understand the absurdity of pap smears from pregnant women – then the changes can be very huge as hormones work in a different way during pregnancy. As far as I know, such medical stupidity isn’t practised in Europe. There is also one thing I’d like to say. The so called results of the pap crap has its classes, in Poland called groups. Class one equals group one and class two is an equivalent of group two. I’ve read somewhere on the net that in the UK or the USA in the case of class (group) two, ”medical prcedures” are started. In Poland in the case of group (class) two nothing is done – no intervention into the female body as such changes are considered normal and nothing to worry about.
     Do you know if it’s true with class (group) two in the US and the UK? If it’s true it’s a gross mistake.

5. Sometimes cancers and other diseases, such as herpes that can threaten the baby’s life are detected and disaster averted. However, I agree here. The last thing I feel I need is being mechanically felt up, and having my cervix damaged when I need it to carry and protect the life growing inside me. Who says the doctor won’t deliberately damage the mucus plug or set up the body to miscarry if “he thinks” we shouldn’t be pregnant?

   RE Obamacare. Get this! My doctor who’s opting out, says care providers are responsible for collecting the first $10,000+ deductible. Imagine all of us who can’t pay our bills now being expected to fork over the first $10K before ObamaCare actually kicks in!!!!! Nobody elected nor on tv has explained this. Imagine your doctor now becoming a collection agent for the government. How many offices will be robbed by druggies looking for an easy $$ score? No Thanks.

   • I don’t understand: they’re collecting money that goes toward Obamacare? Like it buys a key? I would think that would cause the same problems as when the doctors themselves try to lie or back people into things so they can get paid. Besides, someone could always pay for that plan on their own (it’s what they’re going to be doing, anyway). I wonder if the cash serves as kind of a reminder of things- like returning to the scene of the crime or stealing something from the victim as a souvenir? Maybe everything they buy is like that?

     • Money collected for ObummerCare does not go to pay for the program. Instead, it is a huge deductible. Patients pay the first $10,000US then the “Care” kicks in. Private plans provided better care, cheaper premiums, with far cheaper deductibles, before this boondoggle came along. This is the democrats plan to blend the tens of millions of illegal aliens occupying US. Since they don’t pay, cash payers are stuck footing their bills. Insured payers get screwed too, but not as much since they benefit from contracted fee schedules. CA lifetime politicians and multi-millionaires, Senate democrats Pelosi & Feinstein insisted that OblammaCare be voted in to law before it was even discussed.

       We were promised by President Barry Hussien Obama that we could keep our present health insurance, and that his system would lower costs by $2,500 minimum… Lies. Many people living in US are scared at the direction things are headed. This administration does what it pleases, lawful or not. Nobody challenges it for fear of being called racist. No transparency, no accountability. Please pray for US. Nobody here will challenge this new status quo.

6. Talk about swooping in and “saving” the woman, read mislead…this is the sort of thing that needs to be sorted out and fast. This man is the health expert for CBS so has a huge audience.
   http://newyork.cbslocal.com/video/7534156-dr-max-gomez-yearly-pap-tests/

   An American doctor recently said they should stop doing unnecessary exams that simply put women through unnecessary, risky and unpleasant investigations, and then pretend they saved them.
   This is the perfect example, in my opinion, the doctor has performed an unnecessary exam, a routine pelvic exam, found a benign cyst on the woman’s ovary, obviously put her through some sort of diagnostic procedure and then reassures she’s fine, it was benign.
   This woman has been led to believe if she had skipped the annual pelvic, the results “might” have been tragic.
   Has this woman been misled? I think so…

   In my opinion, some doctors are desperate to keep the annual exam alive, they rely on the income and some may wish to keep doing these exams for their own reasons. (outdated, incompetent, perverse etc.) Now that pap tests have been wound back, they have to find a way, so scaring and misleading women into annual pelvic and breast exams is the tactic and convincing them that annual pap tests can’t really hurt.
   WRONG on all counts.

   The VERY reason the routine pelvic exam is not recommended is because it is NOT a screening test for ovarian cancer and it finds harmless things that expose us to risk, even unnecessary surgery. Perhaps, this woman faced surgery…certainly she would have had a TVU at the very least…all for nothing and a negative experience easily avoided – my advice: avoid these doctors like the plague.

   The profession needs to come down hard on doctors who promote these exams, using fear and misinformation, for their own interests. If an exam is of poor clinical value and exposes us to risk, why is it being done? At the very least the evidence should be presented to the woman so she can decide whether she wants the exam or not.

   This doctor also, sees no problem with annual pap tests, doctors just shouldn’t over-react to abnormal results. In my opinion, this shows a complete disregard for the bodily privacy and health of women. It takes no time at all to discover that annual pap tests simply lead to huge over-treatment rates, they risk our health.
   The fact is most women cannot benefit from pap testing…women concerned about this rare cancer should be offered evidence based screening. Doctors should not promote unnecessary exams and tests, it’s bad medicine.
   The medical authorities should challenge this man, the damage he must be doing is awful to contemplate…and to his trusting patients.
   I would hope if a doctor came out with this harmful advice and deceptive presentation here that other doctors or the medical authorities would challenge him….and warn women.
   I hope….
   Naturally, there is nowhere to leave comments. These sorts of people must always have the last word and make it difficult to be challenged. ACOG should be doing that and other medical leaders.

   • Well said. Notice the little disclaimer at the end? The expert under his breath comments on how unnecessary all these are, but then again says to have them done anyway. Anything that can be done to undermine us taking our care into our own control — and literally out of their hands. Notice she was pretty and thin. A “joy” to “thoroughly” examine no doubt. “…yes, every year, until you’re 30+ and have had 2 kids…” Was he panting as he felt your ovary?

     The woman here had to go through a vaginal ultrasound. This is invasive, and somewhat painful. Especially if a you’re ovulating. This woman here may have been ovulating. I was Dx’d w/benign cysts that turned out to be from ovulation. I had multiple ultrasounds and “thorough” internal exams. They didn’t want my hubby there but didn’t dare say it b/c I’d have told them he was staying. The female ultrasound techs were the worst to my hubby and to me. Talk about being treated like meat by your own kind.

     You can train your hubby/lover to feel your organs internally as well as you checking his prostate. I know this sounds strange. Who do you prefer poking around there? We can also get kits to check our own cervix at http://www.beautifulcervix.com

     Look at the video again. If the ovary wasn’t tender, the md would’ve known nothing different! He cannot literally “feel” the ovary. Only the ultrasound, bloodtest, dna testing would show any growths or likelyhood of getting them.

     We’re supposed to be in control and ask questions, report generic meds that have bad side effects (or don’t work) but whenever we do, we end up being “punished” by the md’s & nurses we pay. Try doing this at Kaiser HMO. You’re blacklisted. And bullied. Here, research shows these tests to be BS but hey, doctors always know better! Just listen to the MAN.

     My cousin has fibroids. She is good looking. Everytime she has an exam, first thing is the pelvic. Like any doctor can actually tell if there’s changes like he’s checking his childhood marbles.

     Testicles are easy to feel. Yet, my hubby was sent for an ultrasound after very little physical exam. They cannot determine what our innards are doing no matter how much they feel around.

     A breast exam cannot feel anything but a digital mammogram can detect milk duct cancer in its earliest stages. Jerks.

   • Elizabeth I don’t know about you but I never hear Australian women talk about having ovarian cysts. It is a normal part of the menstrual cycle. But American doctors have turned harmless cysts into a disease and American women always seem to be talking about them.

   • Elizabeth: “The VERY reason the routine pelvic exam is not recommended is because it is NOT a screening test for ovarian cancer and it finds harmless things that expose us to risk, even unnecessary surgery.”

     Yes, this is so true. Palpation-based diagnostics in general have poor specificity, and the bimanual exam to detect ovarian cancer has been proven to be ineffective. According to Westhoff et al., 2011, the bimanual examination as a sole modality does not detect ovarian cancers and research has demonstrated that “bimanual examinations do not lead to earlier detection of ovarian cancer”. http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/jwh.2010.2349

     Elizabeth, the news item you linked was horrifying and I’m thankful you have deconstructed the issue so beautifully. I agree it is an issue that needs to be sorted out and fast. We could be in for an onslaught of propaganda pushing women to have annual pelvics that can only lead to even more worry and potential harms. Will it never end?

   • Doctors using bimanual method could not detect ovarian cancer even if the woman actually had the cancer. Until it was far, far advanced. The roving finger cannot detect prostate cancer or benign disease either. Until it is far advanced.

7. I just read of a case of a doctor who just 11 days after being allowed to work unsupervised ( I presume because of previous complaints about him) sexually assaulted two women with pelvic exams. One woman describes her feelings and they are such an accurate description of how it feels. I have felt the same way even though I wasn’t assaulted.
   “His first victim, an 18 year old , told how she shielded her face with her arm during the examination in a ‘‘silent scream’’. She had been suffering from abdominal pain for several days and her boyfriend suggested she see a doctor.”
   The woman said she later ‘‘crumbled’’ and her boyfriend had to hold her up as she cried uncontrollably. She felt she had been violated.”

   • Mary, I agree, ovarian cysts are perfectly normal, if we viewed them as abnormal or suspicious we’d be having investigations every month and sometimes, twice a month. (double ovulation)
     American women have been horribly misled by doctors, I even had an American woman on a health forum ask me, How do you know you don’t have ovarian cysts, if I don’t have pelvic exams? She was obviously floored when I told her I would have ovarian cysts now and then, all perfectly normal, it’s called ovulation. I knew when I was ovulating…the feeling of pressure and sometimes, even discomfort…and then it was gone. All with no medical assistance, it’s a miracle, no, it’s mother nature. I used the Billings Method as my only method of contraception so had to listen to and watch my body. It became second nature and turned out to be a very positive thing, I felt sort of in tune with my body. It also, increased my protective instinct…leave my perfectly normal body alone.

     Now I’m told because I’ve never used the Pill, I’m at higher risk of ovarian cancer, PLEASE, give me a break.
     Why was the Pill out for me? The medical coercion/assault (by a male doctor) that was tied to a prescription was a large part of the reason.

     Also, there was no Pill until fairly recently, I have many older female relatives who lived into their 80s and 90s with no Pill, pap tests or anything else, they responded to symptoms and they didn’t have 15 kids each, most had one or two and they were born in bush hospitals or at home.
     So the latest scare-mongering about ovarian cancer is more of the same, training women to be afraid of their bodies to force them into medical and commercial control.

     The risk of ovarian cancer is low, and maybe, slightly higher for me because I’ve ovulated every month without a break, but the risk is still very low.
     Like my female relatives I’ll take my chances, rather than accept much higher risk with medical meddling. If I decide to obsess about something…it will be heart disease. The family tree shows strokes and heart attacks take out most of the males in their late 60’s to early 70s and the women in their 80’s and 90’s.
     On your other post:
     Mary, we give rogue doctors, rapists, murderers too many opportunities in this country, the first consideration should be their victims and the public…otherwise as we see far too often, we end up with more victims.

   • I still get suprised when someone says that these things aren’t attacks. It’s unbelievable! Their dispute of reality is off the wall- it”s like they’re saying “what happens isn’t what occurs.” This situation, that has these properties, is what took place. It reminds me of Lars G. Petersson (actually, if you Google him, there’s a good article under Military Abuse & apparently he wrote a book titled medical rape- might be worth looking into, particularly if you or someone you know is looking into being in the military).

     On a broad level, what’s the deal with people NOT fighting back here? It’s like this concept escapes them, no matter what. Also, isn’t it amazing that anything that happens is considered a biological issue? I truly do believe doctors see life, itself, as wrong. They definitely make money off of problems (or the impression of them).

     • It’s all rationalized via big words. You aren’t being violated, you are being “examined internally.” A child doesn’t receive a painful shot, instead it’s just an “innoculation.” You don’t want to get sick do you? “This is just routine; Strictly routine; We do it all day long.” And the, “most women say this just gives them cramping. A couple ibuprofens should take care of it.” Then afterward, “oh, it was really that painful?”

       Yeah. Bullshit. Like they don’t already know. We are talked into it, promised the experience won’t be horrible, then treated like freaks b/c we “supposedly” had a painful outcome. This is why nurses/doctors make the worst patients. They don’t like experiencing the con they pull on everybody else. Violation takes a different meaning when they’re on the receiving end.

8. Cat and Mouse,
   The site “Beautiful Cervix” should be renamed, Mutilated Cervix…by the time a woman is in her 50’s more than three-quarters will have lost some of their cervix. Now this is supposedly to screen and prevent a rare cancer that carries a lifetime risk of just 0.65%…(my cervix is in the minority, it’s in-tact…why? I’ve never had a pap test) That site actually has shots of the cervix after these “minor” treatments, just horrible, it turns my stomach. If we were doing these “minor” treatments on the healthy penis it would have been stopped before it even started. It shows how little they care about our precious asymptomatic bodies…our reproductive organs and breasts are treated with near contempt. Disposable objects, things to be used to maximize power and profits or for their titillation.
   I also, have zero interest in checking or allowing anyone else to check my ovaries or cervix. They will be left undisturbed. I’d only consider an exam or test if I developed persistent and unusual symptoms that called for an exam/test. I know some women check their cervix with a mirror, but I think the obsession with the cervix is bizarre, unhealthy and largely motivated by the insane focus on this one area by the medical profession and others. We don’t shine a light into our ear canal or into our mouths, why the focus on the poor cervix? We need to change this focus…and finally promote healthcare that’s actually in our best interests. Heart disease is the No. killer of men and women, it would be more productive if they talked about that for a change.
   The routine rectal exam for prostate cancer is also, unreliable, and no longer recommended here. My husband has refused it and won’t be having PSA tests.

   None of these exams are helpful and all endanger our health. Even breast self-exams are unhelpful, they simply make women anxious and lead to excess biopsies. Clinical breast exams – no proven benefit, but they lead to excess biopsies.
   I’d also, be very careful with the CA-125 blood test, it’s very unreliable and can lead you into surgery after a false positive. I’ve refused it in very clear terms.
   Almost every intrusion on the asymptomatic female body is unnecessary and risks our health.
   I understand you have health issues, but even then you’re wise to be cautious and protect your body from excess and non-evidence based medicine. Having a support person by your side is also, a sensible protective measure.

   • Please take my experience to heart. I temper our protective natures against exams with reality. US Planned Parenthood only screened me during pelvic exams for STD’s. I was exposed to HPV and had dysplasia. I was treated, tortured, but today I’m healthy. Thanks to this forum now I’m in charge and can say no to pelvic exams with good medical reasoning.

     Ten yrs ago I became extremely ill; although it were a bunch of little illnesses that snowballed. Finally my hubby convinced me on a Sunday to go to the ER. Since I’m older no pelvic was done but an abdominal ultrasound turned into vaginal ultrasound w/o me being informed. There were other things… I was not told I nearly died b/c my pancreatic lipase enzyme was 4000+. Finally my gallbladder was removed. More labs, another uninformed vaginal ultrasound. Thankfully, the CA-125 & other tumor markers all came back normal that convinced them I didn’t have cancer. And to finally leave me alone. My colonoscopy proved I’m healthier than most of them. There are benefits to holistic eating.

     I’ll take lab tests over the degrading useless internal probing anytime. They can be repeated, and now I have baselines to fall back on if in the future any problems appear.

     When you’re sick, in terrible pain, then really you’re at their mercy. Had I known the written orders, I’d have said no internal tests until my blood work indicated otherwise. The external ultrasound showed my stone laden gallbladder clear as day. The ER md’s lied to me, my husband, about tests and withheld info about the tests that were ordered.

     We’re supposed to be proactive and participate in our care. But we always are discriminated against and treated as if stupid when we exercise that right. I’m glad the golden rule applies to them too. Thanks to this site I know the facts. It’s OK to say NO.

9. Elizabeth, I agree with you 100%. To me the beautiful cervix project proves the obvious- the cervix is political capital- and looking at it with mirrors and lights is a sort of symbolic act of claiming it back. I just want all of this to go away, just like my boyfriend is not encouraged to fiddle around his throat with mirrors and lights and cameras, although he could get throat cancer, and men have the same small risk of getting throat cancer over their lifetime as women of getting cervical cancer. I am also not going to have the HPV test- I just do not believe anything, anything good comes from cancer screening for women. Look at the track record of the discipline- bad bad bad bad. I read bits from a study about HPV dna testing, how someone with a negative HPV dna test has less than 1% chance of cervical cancer in the next ten years, but if (roughly speaking) someone has less than 1% chance of getting cervical cancer in their lifetime in a developed country anyway, why should this matter at all???

   • And that less than 1% statistic is taking into account women who have new partners, because they’ve modelled it on the population . So in reality if you are with the same partner it is zero chance.

     • Even if you’re with the same partner, they assume somebody is cheating. Nurses/doctors will bully you, but they rarely stick up for you, and they won’t advocate for you against an HMO system. I’ve found 98% gutless. They won’t document things that will help you either.

   • Mary, the thinking is, yes, but can we safely assume he’s faithful.
     This testing is full of assumptions about us and our partner, there is no regard for the individual.
     It would be an easy matter to give women clear information, but that would mean giving women more control….and that’s unthinkable. Instead they choose to direct the herd into screening…who cares how many are actually at risk or how many will be harmed as a result? BUT the individual can refuse to be treated like a number, we can walk away and reclaim our individual status.

10. In regards to Obamacare, in 2014 it is a requirement by law to either be insured or pay a penalty. There are no exceptions; this applies to everyone. My concern is that they’re focusing very much on women’s health care. I saw a segment on the news and the entire segment was about prenatal care, STD tests, pap smears, pelvic exams, breast exams, and mammography. While I’m still uncertain as to how much they’re going to push these services, all of them have been made completely free. My concern is that they will say these exams are mandatory in order to carry insurance, and as I mentioned before if you don’t carry insurance, you will owe a penalty. I really, really hope that they’re just over-sold optional services as opposed to something everyone must do.

    • Those are my hopes also!
      Even though I’m from Australia and have never been to USA, I’m dreading that if USA introduces compulsory medical exams/tests for compulsory health insurance, Australia may do the same.

      Australia already has compulsory Medicare and heavily imposed private health insurance. It also copied pap smears incentive payments practice from UK. I wonder what’s next… Sadly, Australia is very good at copying privacy-invading and autonomy-violating practices from other countries like UK and US.

      US residents, please don’t let those horrible regulations and laws about compulsory medical examinations to be implemented! It will not only hurt American women, it may damage women in many other countries.

    • Alice, I think we’re likely to copy th UK call and recall system for cervical screening.
      The screening rate is falling and they’re looking for ways to give them “greater control of women”. There is an Australian study that recommends the adoption of the UK style call and recall system.
      It will be a dark day if it’s introduced here…red letters arriving on a regular basis, more pressure in the consult room and from your Clinic. The introduction of that system in the UK saw some shocking conduct by doctors, nurses etc. ie. medical practices sacking women who refused to have a pap test etc.

    • Elizabeth- What do you mean by “sacking” women? I know they pester & pressure, but what happens if they don’t go?

    • Hi Alex,

      They sack you as a patient, remove you from patient records, this became a problem in the UK when doctors were chasing high targets, 80% or more. Those women who refused to yield to pressure were simply sacked by the practice. Other dirty tactics are used as well, getting the receptionist/nurse to call you, flag your file, visit or chase you etc.
      Some women were told they must attend counseling with one or more doctors at the Clinic before they could opt out of testing, this is untrue. I contacted the NHS when this was mentioned on the BlogCritics site and they confirmed it was an over-zealous doctor, it was not a requirement at all. I knew that HAD to be the case, how on earth can you demand counseling simply because a woman doesn’t want an elective screening test?

      The idea here is to gang up on the woman in an intimidating setting, to scare and pressure her, some women were reduced to tears. I spoke to one woman on-line who left distressed after one of these sessions, the doctors had called her foolish, stated she was likely to die from something preventable etc.
      These doctors are stepping way over the line – women should refuse to attend these sessions and report the doctor for suggesting it was “necessary” or a requirement.
      As more women fight back, hopefully, we’ll see less of this sort of conduct, it will become unsafe for doctors to behave like thugs.

      Sadly, too many women accept this outrageous conduct and end up with no medical care or they give in and have the test. It’s another ugly feature of women’s cancer screening, bullying, manipulating and coercing women into testing to maximize coverage.

      It’s a try-on, a complaint would see these women reinstated very quickly, it’s way beyond unethical conduct…but then I wouldn’t want to use a practice that thinks that’s an acceptable way to treat women. I’d be sacking the doctor.

    • Elizabeth, the introduction of UK call-and-recall system will indeed be a dark day for Australian women. Annoying letters, pressure, violation of privacy, misuse of personal contact information and medical records… And we will be forced to pay for all that through our taxes!

      If it ever happens, I will demand to be excluded from Medicare and my information to be deleted from all medical databases. This will make it impossible to seek medical help if I ever need it, but I value my privacy and independence above all.

    • Alice, do you know if there is an option to drop medicare in Australia?

    • Si, I haven’t researched the procedure of “exiting” Australian Medicare yet. But I thin I will have to in the future.

      As far as I know, the person will still be required to pay Medicare Levy, even if they are not a part of Medicare (for example, temporary professional migrants in Australia are required to have their own private health insurance and not allowed to use any Medicare benefits, but they still have to pay Medicare Levy in addition to their Australian taxes).

      But even if I am still forced to pay 1.5% of my Income to Australian Medicare, I would still prefer to unenroll from Medicare, and have all my personal details wiped out of their database, because I am sick of how Medicare shares, discloses and misuses our personal information. I have caught Australian Medicare leaking out people’s data as far as foreign research companies. I had enough, personally. Medicare preys on people’s desperation: people are forced to go to doctors when they feel crook and that means they are also forced to supply their personal information (because, even though Australian law says that we can seek medical help anonymously, in reality doctors don’t offer us that option). Australian Medicare is not a system that just “helps people to have access to affordable health-care”, it became the largest collector and distributor of private information about Australian people.

      If, as Elizabeth mentioned, Australia implements UK’s call-and-recall model for screening, I bet it will be either run by Medicare, or Medicare will supply the re-calling company with our details. Either way, I do not wish to be a part of that massive call to rape and slaughter.

      Once I discovered what Medicare does to information we entrusted it with, I chopped up my Medicare card and haven’t told my Medicare number to anyone anymore. If I have to deal with a medical establishment, I just tell them I don’t have or don’t use Medicare. Now I’m just paying for everything twice: full price out of my pocked to doctors and then 1.5% of my income to Medicare via my taxes. Personal freedom is very expensive to keep in Australia. But I will pay for mine for as long as I can. And if I can’t afford a medical service I need – too bad. My freedom is not for sale.

      If anyone asks me what was the biggest mistake I made in Australia, I would say: enrolling into Medicare. I wish I did a good security and privacy research before I subscribed to this massive scam of Australian Medicare.

    • So, does anyone know how to unenroll from Medicare in Australia?
      I searched all over the Internet for the information. There are plenty of sites that tell how to enrol, but not a word about how to unregister from Australian Medicare. 😦

      I would really like to take my name and other details out of their database. I know I will still be forced to pay Medicare levy, but I don’t want to be a part of the system/organisation that invades people’s privacy, disseminates lies, and supports and runs harmful screening programs.

    • There actually IS an exception to the ACA: if it would take more than 8% of your income to buy insurance you can opt out without a financial penalty.

11. What exactly are the consequences of getting an HPV test? Some HPV lab tests only give a result of positive or negative. Since there are several strains of HPV, some quite harmless – what is the point? Only a few strains MIGHT actually cause cervical cancer in some women. The treatments are terrible LEEP, conization or hysterectomy. Women are being mislead.

    Are HPV tests very specific to the HPV strain or just all lumped in together high risk or low risk?

    • I’ve heard of women that’ll die virgins because of these tests (I think it was a LEEP, specifically)!

    • LEEP is a treatment. It’s an electrified wire loop that cuts, fries (cauterizes), and removes a hunk of your cervix. I knew a woman w/CC that had this under GA. She’s ok today; far as I know it went ok but she had very heavy post-op bleeding and pain 10/10. Make sure you look up this procedure on YouTube. Soo surprising what you find there. What “they” don’t want us to see.

      I had creosurgery. The surface of my cervix was frozen 2x in one “session” via a donut-shaped disk that was chilled via a tank of liquid nitrogen. The md provided me no pre-anesthesia, no sedation. He said the cold would provide its own pain control. I was terrified. The cramping afterward was so intense. Plus, when you finally stand up, the now defrosted, and now liquified remains of your cervical tissue that just got cold-fried runs out of you. Mine worked the first time, if not the md would’ve repeated it two more times. Afterward, I was biopsied at 3 months, paps every 6 months for 2yrs.

      Now I find out that my dysplasia (grade 1+?) didn’t require this. Two comments. The asshole I ended up marrying (I had bad self esteem back then) had screwed around on me and may have delivered this virus to me. So perhaps this was good in the long run?

      I read on Topix that the virus goes into hiding or dormancy for 15, 20, 30 yrs and can resurface again on your cervix if your health gets stressed. I don’t know the truthfulness of this; haven’t had time to research it. Help me if you know anything about this, please.

    • Cat&Mouse, I have doubts about HPV dormancy theory. If we were truly unable to fight the virus and develop immunity against it, the vaccination would have been impossible. Yet we have been sold Gardasil for quite some time now. Something doesn’t add up in the medical area. It looks like quacks just want to make money on all fronts: vaccines, screening AND treatments.

    • I don’t know anything about that, but maybe Elizabeth does (or someone else). I’d be more concerned that your body couldn’t fight it off if your health is stressed like that.

      There’s a lot of false information out there about viruses & such (one minute you can get a vaccine & that’ll give you an immunity, the next minute it won’t last, the next it won’t actually work without some kind of enhancer that actually makes you have the full-blown problem you were worried about in the first place- that you might not have even gotten & weren’t informed that it would give you this problem, at least you get a bill for it & every other “hospital service” that may or may not be IMPOSED through whatever means of compulsion).

12. Moo they test for the cervical cancer causing strains.

13. I have just read on the webmd.com site that HPV tests can also show false positives: copied and pasted exact wording: • An HPV test is highly reliable for finding HPV when it is present. But an HPV test may come back positive when you do not have an HPV infection. This is called a false-positive test result.
    The rate of False positives is around 15% for HPV and HIV – imagine being diagnosed with these then treated – all for nothing – I do not see the point of even taking any of the tests? I am happy to take my 99% chance of nothing wrong than 1% of a possible problem.
    These figures from BMJ are for age at start of screening per 10,000, alive 10 years after with screening, alive 10 years after with NO screening, number of deaths:
    25 10,000 9963 9962 1 death
    35 10,000 9863 9859 4 deaths
    45 10,000 9713 9708 5 deaths
    55 10,000 9457 9450 7 deaths
    This kind of puts it into perspective for me. A third of them are also missed by the pap!
    Also copied form doctodoc.bmj forums:
    The incidence of cervical cancer peaked in the UK in 1950 with 11 deaths per 100,000. By 1964 it had already declined to 9 per 100,000. In 1964 rudimentary screening was introduced. But it was not until 1987 that a national programme of call-and-recall screening was introduced. By then mortality had already fallen to 6 per 100,000. Since then it has fallen to just above 3 per 100,000. There is alot of information coming through via the BMJ site and is really worth checking it out.

    • Chas, I understood by false positive HPV test that meant positive for HPV, but no high grade CIN found on the pap test or at colposcopy/biopsy. This is because most women with HPV simply clear the virus within a year or two. It’s only the rare cases that go on to cause changes to the cervix and eventually invasive cancer.

      The concern about false positive HPV tests is disingenuous IMO, because if you adopt the new Dutch program they minimize those getting a positive HPV test by excluding women under 30. Many countries like the States, UK and Australia won’t do that, so HPV primary testing becomes unworkable. The States have “solved” the problem by doing both tests on those 30 or more…this way maximizing over-investigation, (and profits) using both tests causes the most confusion, the HPV test should stand alone and be offered only to those aged 30 or older and only every 5 or 10 years. (depending on age)
      It’s not difficult if you follow the evidence, but I see this testing as a tussle between competing interests who all want a share of the profit-making cervix.
      They claim it’s safer to over-screen, stay with excess, but it’s all about keeping vested interests happy…misleading women is easy. Most women have no clue, hardly surprising with the fierce suppression of all real information over decades.

      I’m with you though, I won’t be testing for HPV, rare is rare, but for those who wish to test, the new Dutch program is IMO, the best in the world.
      Also, some countries send HPV+ women off for immediate colposcopy, this is overdoing it, they should simply be offered a five yearly pap test until they clear the virus.
      The cuurent review here I see as a juggling of vested interests along with the evidence, trying to find a space that keeps most people happy….forget what’s best for women, they’re of no real concern.

14. http://www.questdiagnostics.com/testcenter/testguide.action?dc=TH_HPV_HighRiskDNA_HybridCaptureII
    ” This nucleic acid hybridization method utilizes a DNA probe cocktail specific for intermediate/high risk serotypes (types 16,18,31,33,35,39,45,51,52,56,58,59,68). Results are reported as “not detected” or as “detected” for high-risk HPV serotype. The specific serotype(s) cannot be reported.

    Concordance with polymerase chain reaction (PCR) results is estimated to be 83%.”
    Which means 17% or more inaccuracy.
    “Below is a summary of follow-up recommendations for specific combinations of HPV and cervical cytology results1:
    Age ≥30: Pap test negative/high-risk HPV negative: Routine screening with Pap and high-risk HPV at 5-year intervals
    Pap test negative/ high-risk HPV positive: Repeat Pap test and high-risk HPV test at 12 months; or test for HPV genotype 16 and/or 18
    Age 21-29:Pap test ASC-US/ high-risk HPV negative: Resume routine screening
    Pap test ASC-US/ high-risk HPV positive: Colposcopy”
    So just more testing, more biopsies, more damaging treatments.
    Just do not get a HPV or pap test unless you have symptoms and you do not want to use natural treatments.
    ? Is there a specific serotyping test for strains 16 or 18 that are considered high risk readily available?

    Yeah now I went to the doctor for a broken wrist. He looks up the records and says “you are due for a physical from head to toe”. Well he is not looking at my vagina. I am just declining the whole physical. I do not want it since it is going to be a huge struggle with his predatory attitude. He already did blood tests: glucose and cholesterol which must be fine if he did not mention them.

    If he had asked for a pap test I was prepared. I was going to ask him if he knew the difference between an hand and a vagina. Some men don’t know the difference.

15. I have not found any research reference to proving that HPV virus resurfacing/reactivating after x number of years. Other viruses do that such as pox viruses (chicken pox -> shingles). http://www.idsociety.org/2012_HPV_Reactivation/ ““Taken together, our data raise the possibility that reactivation risk may increase around age 50 years and contribute to a larger fraction of HPV detection at older ages, compared with new acquisition,” the researchers wrote. -” hypothesis but not proof, no supporting facts — not science.

    Around 50 years old – menopause – hormones change and same with pregnancy – HPV infection might occur and maybe linger longer than a few months. This does not mean that the HPV infection cannot clear up on its own or that women need disfiguring treatments and surgeries or that the virus is reactivating.

    I am sure that fomites play a role in transmission of HPV either public toilets and doctor’s office which are so filthy. Ever get asked for a urine sample and the washroom you have to use is beyond belief! I know a man who got HPV warts from his urologists office. He was not fooling around on his wife.

16. I need these panties NO MEANS NO or I love (informed) CONSENT not that my doctor will ever see them.

17. Apparently part of the reason for the lack of clarity about Obamacare is due to doctors’ reluctance to discuss the changes. Obamacare threatens to have a negative impact on doctors. Doctors will be paid less under Obamacare, and they will be paid based on the quality of their work. The incentives to perform unnecessary tests will be removed. Consumers of health care will have more control and will be given more of a voice regarding what constitutes quality care:

    “Under Obamacare, doctors will be paid based on the quality of their work. Currently, physicians are paid per service, regardless of performance. About $1 billion in federal health care payments will rely on patient-satisfaction surveys, according to the Wall Street Journal.

    “Supporters say paying for performance removes a lot of bad incentives in the current system. It removes the motivation to do unnecessary tests and hospitalize people who don’t need it,” Wall Street Journal added.
    – See more at: http://madamenoire.com/284659/most-say-doctors-arent-talking-about-obamacare-leaving-patients-without-critical-information/#sthash.F32MBwCm.dpuf “

    • That certainly sounded very reassuring! I really do hope that’s the case. I think another reason for the lack of clarity is that there’s such a divide in our government between political parties. Democrats are promoting Obamacare, while Republicans are against it. You have one side who are promoting something very persistently, while the other is constantly speaking negatively about it. It can make it difficult to figure out what is the truth and what is just being said for the sake of political argument and to get people on one side. That’s why I envy countries who have unbiased media sources. As far as I know, every network here is biased to one party or another. There’s nothing that is all facts and laid out simply. Enough about politics, though. I think that’s probably a very good point – that doctors are afraid of losing money. I believe all doctors should work off of salary, anyways. In my opinion, that would cut back on everything unnecessary if they all got paid the same amount rather than for individual services or procedures. If Obamacare eventually gets to that point, then I think it would be a great thing.

    • It might cut back on SOME stuff, but what about the general pervyness? They might also simply like causing problems or lying. There’s plenty of perceived control of life & death, as well as whatever issues are directed specifically toward women. Don’t forget, money can just be a cover (it looks like their just motivated by money, but maybe that just hides the fact that they’d do the same thing for free or at a cost to them).

      I remember hearing something about microchips with Obamacare. At the very least, it seems to apply to all implanted things, but it might very well be a start-off step. Maybe it’s put in more & more things and then any argument toward it is deemed invalid (since it’s so “safe” & “can save lives” & it’s “the wrong answer” to do otherwise- sound familiar?). I’ve noticed things getting progressively more bossy & dictatorial in this country and it tends to have an “entitled to do whatever thing because they want to help” kind of vibe. There might very well be medical problems attached to legal problems, instead of being directed on their own. Bleak & scary, but I figure it was worth mentioning.

18. Maybe photo I’d with a microchip in the card like what is in credit cards. There is fraud with healthcare insurance only for the most part it is the medical providers that are doing the most of it.

    I live in Ontario so I do not “pay” for visits to the doctor or tests. I just feel that some doctors order too many tests or want to unneccessary tests such as cancer screening (pap, mammogram, colonscopy) . Most of the doctors are on fee per service. I am registered to only one family MD which is allowed after years of the walk-in care. I do not feel that I am receiving much better care except that the vists are somewhat longer (8 min vs3 min). Now I am pressured for cancer screening tests.

    I would not be so quick to dismiss Obamacare my American friends. It means that some poor people will have basic care. Canadians find the situation of some American’s appalling. We even have special charities such as Herbie fund for children around the world to be treated when they cannot get help in their own country.

    • A lot of people DO find American healthcare appalling. It’s NOT of good quality (which includes being antagonistic), it IS expensive, and it tends to be a major hassle to actually go about getting.

      This culture has numerous unofficial problems that, basically, rot the foundations of whatever you’re dealing with. What that looks like, specifically, depends on the situation you’re dealing with. I’ve noticed that in this country, there’s a heavy trend of people trying to live other people’s lives & make other people’s decisions or impose their own- that can be different problems, depending on mechanics. This is in a country that’s supposed to have freedom of choice & independant decision-making.

19. Mary mentioned that Australian women don’t worry about ovarian cysts, whereas American and Canadian women do because they have routine pelvic exams that find harmless cysts so often…and these women often face unnecessary surgery. Something normal is painted as possibly, sinister.
    This is the perfect example of an unnecessary exam finding something normal, “treating it just in case” and then pretending they saved the woman.
    So many surgeries are performed every year to treat/remove harmless cysts (and sometimes the healthy ovaries go as well)…something normal being turned into a problem for medical profits.
    If you don’t have these exams, you can forget about harmless ovarian cysts.
    http://www.besthealthmag.ca/get-healthy/girlfriends-guide/should-you-worry-about-ovarian-cysts

    • I’ve got to ask: Why do women bother with any of this, at all? I’ve been thinking about pressure (in the social sense) & it seems to boil down to wanting to make these people happy. Whatever it is, it’s a question of the other side not being upset. Consideration should not be present for these people! Not everyone’s misery is a bad thing.

      I hope that doesn’t come off like I’m trying to dictate your feelings, but there is absolutely NO WRONG in disregarding these people’s feelings.

    • Alex, don’t forget that a lot of doctors blackmail women into these tests by withholding birth control or other medications. It’s easy to say “well, they could find another doctor” but a lot of women don’t feel assertive doing that, they’ve been conditioned to believe that the tests aren’t anything to worry about, or they really need the medication then and there.

20. Hi Elizabeth, thanks for your response, maybe I am not understanding properly, but the way I read it was, as per copied and pasted: “But an HPV test may come back positive when you do not have an HPV infection. This is called a false-positive test result”. http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/hpv-genital-warts/human-papillomavirus-hpv-test?page=3 This is for the HPV test alone, not pap/smear test. Am I reading this wrong? It is possible to have a positive HPV test but actually be a false positive, told you have disease but do not? Perhaps you could check the web site where it states “what to consider”? My head is so muddled these days, so much to read – thanks again

21. I did a little research and it looks like there’s an arbitrary cut off point whether it’s decided you have HPV or not.
    “At the optimal cutoff (1.0 pg/mL), the HPV assay was more sensitive than conventional Pap testing (88.4 percent versus 77.7 percent) but less specific (89 percent versus 94.2 percent).”
    So it is possible to have a false positive it seems. I suppose it would mean that some women have caught the HPV virus and are in the process of clearing it and there are a few remnants of HPV still lying around.
    http://www.cap.org/apps/cap.portal?_nfpb=true&cntvwrPtlt_actionOverride=%2Fportlets%2FcontentViewer%2Fshow&_windowLabel=cntvwrPtlt&cntvwrPtlt%7BactionForm.contentReference%7D=cap_today%2Ffeature_stories%2Fside21000.html&_state=maximized&_pageLabel=cntvwr

    • http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3215506.html

      I am wondering about this study, the women whose partners used condoms did not develop any lesions, but still caught HPV. This study would suggest to me personally that my chances with not getting cervical cancer are even better than 99% (I can admit here I never in my life had sex without condoms). In order to improve this excellent (and for me completely fine) statistics any further, a quasi-foolproof test would be needed, and in order to develop such a test, the disease would have to be well understood, and one can only wonder why would there be no cure in such a case.

    • Karen, I still can’t fully understand how exactly HPV behaves. There is too much confusing information: pro-screen mob tell us the “facts” that good for them, some scientists say differently. It’s hard to know who is biased, and who isn’t.

      However, if one applies some logic, the condom facts do make sense. According to that article, the women whose partners used condoms did not develop any lesions, but still caught HPV. HPV appears to be highly contagious, which explains why the women got the virus. But, because of condom use, the HPV load was low, especially in their cervix region, so the amount of virus was not enough to cause any lesions. If the women’s immune system was not compromised, they will fight the virus off. They will probably even develop immunity to it, akin to vaccination.

      The medical establishment is still pushing a line about “it’s impossible to get rig if HPV, it just becomes dormant and may easily re-manifest later in life, that’s why it is important to pap-smear even if you are HPV-negative… blah-blah-blah”. But if we are unable to develop immunity against HPV, HPV-vaccination is a scam.

      The bottom line is: either HPV-vaccination is a fraud, or the demands that women keep pap-smearing regardless of their HPV-status are a groundless lie in order to keep the profits. Either way, quacks are taking us for a ride.

      • Can HPV be detected w/o a pelvic exam? Does anybody know?

22. Which makes sense, you might still test HPV+ even when your immune system has almost cleared the virus. The fact is most women clear the virus in a few years. It’s only the rare cases that persist for many years that go on to something serious. (Adenocarcinoma is the exception, it can develop fairly quickly, it’s an even rarer type of cervix cancer that young women tend to get, those VERY rare cases, but pap testing doesn’t help them anyway, the test usually misses these very rare cancers. (False negatives) The test was designed to prevent squamous cell, the more common type of cc. (but still rare) So we see the countries that do pap testing on young women have the same incidence and death rate as countries who screen and over screen them. (with very high over-treatment rates) I suspect Finland would see fewer deaths as young women are given helpful information, see a doctor with persistent and unusual symptoms. Our young women may rely on pap testing and be falsely reassured by a normal pap test, and are often worried/harmed by false positives. We also, have doctors who do pap tests on women who present with symptoms, when they should be referred for a diagnostic assessment.

    This is why the new Dutch program will offer five yearly pap tests to the roughly 5% who are HPV+ and then send them back to the HPV primary testing program when they clear the virus. The Dutch will not do pap testing on HPV- women, that’s 95% of women aged 30 or more. (and they’ve never pap tested women under 30, they’ll also, be excluded from HPV primary testing….protecting young women from these programs.
    The new program will also, protect the vast majority of women who cannot benefit from pap testing. Most countries ignore the evidence and maximize risk and harm for no additional benefit…and some women lose their lives, missed in the muddle of excess.
    I’ll take a look at the references. HPV Today is a good source of information, you have to register, but it’s free.

    • What do doctors fear most? A patient who’s informed and in charge. The PR folks encourage such behavior but only if it helps us “climate-ize” ourselves to accepting whatever is recommended. Agree?

      Can HPV be screened via blood test w/o having to go through a pelvic exam?

      Also, If my husband gets oral cankers (since his childhood) can this give me a positive result to a screening? After all, oral cankers are also a form of HPV. Could anybody please help me here?

23. the difference between cold sore and canker sores. http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/guide/canker-sores
    HPV and mouth cancer http://www.oralcancerfoundation.org/hpv/hpv-oral-cancer-facts.html

    cold sores, canker sores and mouth cancer are not alike.

    • I’m not worried about mouth cancer. My concern is if there’s any connection between mouth cankers and the HPV strain that causes CC. There shouldn’t be any connection, but I’d like confirmation if possible.

24. Alice, this is one of several articles that consider a call and recall system for Australia. There are also, some interesting figures given, facts never released to women, including the harms of over-treatment. (increased perinatal mortality) So often these discussions focus on lives saved by screening and the cost of the program…while the harms of screening and actual value of the testing comes a poor second. No one ever seems to consider whether we should be spending millions screening for a cancer with a 0.65% lifetime risk, a program that condemns huge numbers of women to painful and damaging excess biopsies/over-treatment.

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/10/734

    It’s incredible that in 2013 we’re still talking about the safety of 3 yearly testing from 25, the Finns and Dutch acted on the evidence LONG ago. IMO, there are many in this country very happy with this level of over-testing and over-treatment, and with women completely in the dark, why mess with a great business model? It’s convenient deafness and blindness to the evidence, IMO, and that has enabled them to stall for decades.

    If our doctors are just working out there are FAR better ways to screen for this cancer, we must have the thickest doctors in the world, that’s not true, so…do we have the most unethical doctors in the world? Certainly the AMA and medical leaders should have done something about this testing a long time ago, they’ve sat back and joined the, “Get Screened Every Two Years or Die” chorus.
    I lost faith and trust in our medical associations a very long time ago, I know they don’t protect women or treat us honestly, fairly and respectfully, on the contrary, they give women BAD medical advice that harms many for no additional benefit over an evidence based program.
    Hopefully, when the Old Guard retire, we’ll see change, but I fear their underlings have been trained well…to protect the program, not women.

    “The reductions predicted in the number of treatments for high grade precancer is an important benefit associated with increasing the recommended screening interval, especially in women of reproductive age. This is because such treatments are associated with an increased risk of obstetric complications, including pre-term delivery, low birth weight and premature rupture of the membranes [16] and for some treatment modalities, increased perinatal mortality and other serious pregnancy outcomes [17]. Our baseline findings predict that 300-600 fewer women in Australia would undergo such treatments each year under a 3-yearly recommendation”
    AND:
    “A substantial body of evidence has now found that screening in women younger than 25 years of age does not substantially lower the risk of developing invasive cervical cancer”

    You don’t say, the Finns could have told you that in 1960.
    Reducing testing to 3 yearly from age 25 will save 300-600 women from unnecessary treatments, (probably more) but almost all of this damage could be avoided with HPV primary testing/HPV self-testing, and only offering a 5 yearly pap test to the 5% who are HPV+ and aged 30-60. This shouldn’t be about saving money, (although that’s a factor) it should be about doing the most good, with the smallest impact on the healthy population of women. It’s possible, but we’ve always chosen to do the most harm for no additional benefit.

    • Well said, Elizabeth:

      Australian medical system does everything to protect the program, not women

    • Elizabeth, the article you linked to is shocking (as per usual in Australian medical system):

      As the HPV-vaccinated cohorts mature, cervical screening will inevitably become less cost-effective over time, because the average risk of cervical cancer in the Australian population will eventually fall due to vaccination. In this context, measures to increase the efficiency of screening are of interest.

      Which, in the Medical system’s mind, means: after we vaccinated women against HPV, cervical cancer will nearly disappear. We should now urgently think of new ways of making money!

      The National Cervical Screening Program in Australia uses a reminder-based system, in which women who are registered on state or territory cytology registries are sent a letter if they do not have a screening test at the recommended interval. We have previously suggested that if the recommended screening interval is increased, a move to a call-and-recall system (in which proactive invitations to attend screening are issued) could be considered in order to increase compliance with the new recommendation and to limit late re-screening. The use of a call-and-recall system in England, and other differences in the organisation of screening, have been associated with a higher degree of compliance with the recommended interval in England compared to Australia.

      Key words: increase compliance and higher degree of compliance! Doesn’t matter it is a rare cancer, doesn’t matter you don’t want to screen, doesn’t matter you are vaccinated. We need full waiting rooms, we want money, we will strive for higher compliance. There is no way to get yourself out of the “successful” UK’s call-and-recall system. In Australia, the woman, after some hassle, can still delete herself from a pap smear register. Can we trust stupid women to make such decisions? No way! We must copy UK!

25. HPV and condom use.
    Yes condoms do help prevent HPV infection in women but it depends on the sexual practices used by the couple. The condom only covers a certain part and HPV can be on the scrotum, under finger nails, the perinatal region, or surfaces, toys etc.

    Women should not wipe their front and then back with the same toilet paper. Probably you were always told by your doctor to wipe front to back. We’ll if a woman has HPV warts in her labia then she will spread them to her anus using that method. So anal cancer due to HPV is often assumed due to anal sex which is not always the case.

    Vaccines could lead to no change in testing
    Nothing much is going to change testing, not even the vaccines. The vaccines only are for a few strains of the virus. There are other strains that could cause cancer so that will be the scare tactic. The way to stop all this nonsense is to better inform women and stop paying doctor incentives to do paps on top of what they already get paid.

    I would do Pap tests if I was having a say in how frequent and if I could decide to refuse colposcopist and treatments without hassles. Instead I want to avoid being in the provincial database so I am not testing at all. I think it would cost me around $300 to get an undocumented Pap test at a naturopath (consultation fees plus lab fees and shipping) but I cannot afford it. I could get pap tested at my doctor (while he makes$$$$ from it) but at great emotional cost to me (survivor of abuse) and possibly sent for further treatments and biopsies.

26. The week of Oct 21 is cervical cancer awareness week and my Dr’s office is holding a pap clinic that welcomes walk-ins. I cannot wrap my brain around the focus on this rare cancer. No other cancer, besides breast cancer, gets this amount of focus. I guess all the Dr’s will be getting their $2000 bonus this year.

    • ADM – Here in the US, at least where I live, they offer free paps/pelvics and mammograms year-round at several clinics. A few of my friends and I were discussing how raising awareness for cancers is such a big deal, yet they only raise awareness for cancers that have screening programs. Not one word about lung cancer or brain cancer or thyroid cancer. They don’t even so much discuss bowel/colorectal cancers. The main focus always seems to be cancers of the female organs (cervical, uterine, ovarian, breast) and prostate cancer. The general opinion among all of us while having our discussion was that the money that goes to these awareness foundations is a waste because it could be going to help people. If you are of the belief that there is already a cure for cancer, then the money could go towards finding cures for other illnesses. If you’re of the belief that a cure has not been found yet, then the money could go towards finding a cure rather than making people aware by sending the entire population to participate in screening programs. When you think about it, I wonder how many lives could have been saved with all of the money that goes into these awareness campaigns? Whether it be those with cancer or other illnesses. Sure, being aware of your body is important and if you feel like you need/want to participate in any program after being informed, then you should be able to access it and do so. That being said, there’s a difference between awareness and scaring everyone into constantly monitoring their bodies.

      • I understand medical testing. There’s I, II, and III stages to testing. First is to see if it works & won’t kill. Second is to find the right dose. Third is a blind test vs a known treatment and placebo. There is a big time reason why, in the sense of what you say, the medical community is pushing so hard to find people to screen and treat. Especially the early detection treatable diseases with high cure rates. Without people cranking through the turnstiles, there won’t be cancers to find, treat, and “discover” which treatment works best. Those unfortunate who are Stage III+ and IV will quality when a new treatment takes stage.

        Governments, insurances, and pharm companies now want to see what’s cheapest and works best. The end race to the cure and big bucks. So they need lots of people to diagnose and cure. At this stage it’s low risk but high reward–to them anyway. In honesty, I feel some testing is beneficial. But why mammograms every year if totally normal? Why pelvics if they are useless? How about a cure for the common cold? How about something to help my sex life when I get old? Was not my contribution to society worth something?

        Last night my hubby had to visit Kaiser urgent care. He told the nurse about this site, and asked if Kaiser practiced the new CDC guidelines on pelvics. She had no clue. He said she became very puzzled when he told her the bimanual can’t detect cancer even it it’s already there.

27. I actually found the website and the list of what they get paid for their cancer screening incentives.
    http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/fht/docs/fht_compensation.pdf pg 11
    Service Enhancement Fee of $6.86 is payable to physicians for each
    enrolled patient he or she contacts for the purpose of scheduling an appointment for pap test and others.
    Pap smear pg 12
    This Service Enhancement Fee is payable to the physician and calculated annually on an individual physician basis, based on the percentage of female patients enrolled to the physician who are between 35 and 70 years of age and who have had a Pap smear in the past 30 months.
    Percentage of Enrolled Patients Fee Payable
    60% $220
    65% $440
    70% $660
    75% $1320
    80% $2200
    Usually recommended that if a doctor works 40hrs per week that he have a roster of 1300 to 1500 patients. Mostly likely some will have different gender splits depending on the gender of the physician and the practice. (women will tend to see the female doctors in a practice)
    Some other document I found stated that a pap test code could be added on to any other assessment or other procedure for billing. Usually if you have more than one concern you are told to come back for another assessment so they can bill that. ONLY pap test is allowed a double billing.
    Any wonder we are harassed and harassed and treated badly when we refuse pap tests.

    • Wait, you mean they get paid for “asking?” I don’t understand what you mean at the end, is it that they can attach the “inquiry” (that they get paid for) to anything else & get paid more for it or is it with the test, itself? And it just applies time after time (like they keep scheduling appointments & they keep getting paid when they just attach a code that says they asked or did something?)?

      I don’t really need to wonder why they don’t just lie & leave the woman alone, but I would’ve thought that women would get suspicious on that fee-for-action situation alone. The more actions they engage in, the more cash they make & if they lie or actually cause problems it makes them even more- all while the patient potentially thinks this isn’t a trick (there can also be a lust for lying as an incentive).

      Then there comes the “Oh, they’re not all like that” response, or you get someone saying “Well, you get good & bad in everything.” And here I thought that was what certification was for!

      Let’s not forget “They save a lot of lives” (whether they actually do that or not. What’s that supposed to mean? That it’s okay for them to screw up some people’s lives if they save others?

28. The government is allowing them to do this. Most people have no idea.

    I should contact my member of provincial parliament and complain. With cuts to funding doctors should not be getting these incentive payments. There might be an argument that all the screening will save money in healthcare by catching cancer early. However I happen to know that they use the FOBT to screen patients that will be referred for colonoscopies, the information/instruction pamphlet with the card kit seriously omits instructions about diet and medications before the test. The test is going to give many people false positive for blood in their stool for such activities as flossing their teeth, eating red meat, broccoli, and many other foods. So a ridiculous amount of people are going to be referred for colonscopy which is invasive and does have risks. So what is expected when the cervical screening/pap train is so ridiculous and harmful.

    I found a blog that totally exposes the HPV myth as the cause of cervical cancer and the farce of the HPV vaccine. I will post it up tomorrow

    And I might remind people there is absolutely no proof of HPV later reactivating in women after 20 or 30 years after an initial infection. There was no study ever done that proved this. It was just a “theory” that someone made up and it was taken as fact. Older women are likely to have new infections because hey who is checking what strain of HPV they have. They would have to know the original strain and prove that the same strain reactivated in the later infection. Even some women were likely infected at their doctors office or by formites.

    • I was quite shocked when I came across the incentive payments for Dr’s in Ontario. I thought for sure with funding cuts to nurses in hospitals and wait lists for specialists and MRI’s etc…that the government would not spend precious money on incentive payments to push screening especially for a rare cancer. The focus on screening does not cost less money vs. only treating those who have cancer. At any time less than one percent of the population has cancer and needs treatment. Yet if the intention is to screen the entire population of a province on a regular basis the screening tests cost money and there will be rates of a faulty test that needs repeating and false positives that need further investigation. Then how many people will have a false positive and undergo full treatment for cancer unnecessarily. Then add on that Dr’s will push screening to get payment. Overall screening puts more people into the system which not only costs money but causes the wait times and doctor shortage.

29. Alex,
    Can’t find the relevant post, but you asked me about the German proposal to penalize those who don’t take part in screening programs.
    Here is a BMJ article on the subject, you might not be able to access the article, but the rapid responses are interesting.
    I wasn’t surprised to hear it didn’t eventuate on ethical and legal grounds.
    That’s why these “mandates” in democratic countries are try-on tactics to increase coverage, they know most women won’t challenge them and even fewer will take legal action/report them etc. It’s all about safety, how safe is it for a doctor/the profession to coerce/pressure/harass/scare/mislead a woman into screening? I’m talking about the doctor’s safety, not the woman, they couldn’t care less about her.
    http://www.bmj.com/content/333/7574/877.4?tab=responses

30. Sue – Just an idea but maybe a separate section devoted to this health insurance reform in the states might be a good idea?

    I think it would be good for women like us at this forum and the Women Against Stirrups site to have a kind of “plan of action”, and have information as it trickles in from women using the exchanges or having the difficulties like Ashley had, in one section of your site?

    By plan of action I mean dealing with doctors who are holding insurance forms hostage, and seeing what will actually be done (exam wise) with women using the exchanges.

    • I’d also suggest people start extra sites (look what happened with Blogcritics). This site works cool, but I would suggest no having all the eggs in one basket with this- especially since a lot of women seem to bottle up what they actually feel about all this & just give the more “approved of” answer (“approved of” by who, though?). Getting information to base decisions on is rare, too.

      A lot of things are to help the doctor & disregard the patient. The attendant being there to protect the doctor & not the patient is a good example of that. They’re only there to cover for the doctor & say that nothing bad happened, not to keep the doctor from doing anything like that. People sometimes forget that someone that’s in the position of support can be cut from the same cloth as the one you were worried about in the first place.

31. A few posts back someone was asking how a woman could tell if they had HPV without a doctor. Ok there are about 40 strains of HPV that affect the genitals. Some cause warts only, some cause cervical dysplasia (and supposedly eventually cancer) and some cause both. To look for warts on a male soak a paper towel with vinegar (yes ordinary household vinegar) for a few minutes on penis and scrotum. The warts will turn white. For women you could probably see any external warts (vinegar will sting the inner labia). To see the cervix you need a speculum which you would have to get from medical supply. I have even heard of people stealing them from clinics. Just make sure that you get a new one or one only used by yourself, no sharing. Then vinegar can be put on the cervix. After about a minute any parts that appear white are infected with HPV (dysplasia). This same procedure is done in a colposcopy. You could use h2o2 (3–7percent) on HPV affected areas or various other cures such as green tea extract instead of having some doctor cut or burn parts of your cervix off. Or just take certain vitamins: folic acid, zinc, B’s, C and let your body heal itself. There are other ways to help such as do not smoke, have a partner that smokes, stop using hormonal birth control. Some naturopaths do paps and have protocols for healing cervical dysplasia.

    • H202 is hydrogen peroxide, right? Just making sure that was the reference.

    • Moo, excellent info. Can you tell me please, if HPV can be detected by a blood test or in any way w/o involving a pelvic exam? It would be nice to screen for this w/o being handled like a bowling ball.

32. Hi Alex,

    There are already some other sites on this topic that are giving voice around these issues. One of them is the Women Against Stirrups site. Also, ALL of the comments from the old Blogcritics site were saved/preserved and the site is available for anyone to add to the discussion. That site is at:

    10,000 Lost Comments on Unnecessary Pap Smears Find a New Home

    It appears that the site was intended as a forum to continue the discussion thread that had started on the old Blogcritic’s site.

    In addition, anyone else who wants to start a blog on this topic should certainly do so. The more blogs the better!

33. No there is no blood test for HPV. Depending on what country you live in there are self tests for HPV that involve putting a swab like device into the vagina. This can be done at home by the woman herself and sent into a lab for processing. Digene has a self HPV test that is available in the Netherlands and some other countries. Digene makes an HPV test for Canada and US that is only available for doctors to use while doing a pap test. So you have to wonder why?

    • You scored again Moo! Figures; that we women aren’t trusted to harvest a swab of our own cervical mucus. Doctors don’t trust us and won’t answer our questions truthfully , treat pain they claim we cannot feel, nor to allow us to pick our spouses or whomever we choose as our advocates and/or chaperones into the exam room w/o a fight either. But they demand binding consent, full payment, and unquestioned loyalty. As if they have full control of our vaginas.

      How I’d like to put them, naked, into the stirrups, and perform a bimanual pelvic on them while discussing what their body parts look like.

34. Believe or not last time I totally refused a pap test I told my doctor that I was trying to get pregnant and did not want a pap test. (obviously the treatments for abnormal pap tests destroy fertility so why risk it) He told me that if I got pregnant and refused a pap test then I would be denied prenatal care. ????? Whose pants are on fire?

    So I want help with fertility issues and I am getting nothing. When I bring up the subject he is all on about pap tests. Probably I am considered too old but really at my age most women do not want more babies, stopped trying, would be horrified to be pregnant or had such damage done to them as a result of “abnormal Paps” that they could not sustain pregnancy. I do not believe that statistics that I have 1% chance of conceiving or every pregnancy over age 45 is too high risk.

    Right now I am charting my basal body temp, taking vitex, tonnes of prenatal vitamins, and now starting a baby aspirin per day. Any ideas?

    • Moo, I’m glad finally I get to offer you advice. I like what Lynn says above. Ask your md if he’ll compensate you for any damage he causes. Also, find another md. If this a**hole refuses to answer your questions now, imagine what he’ll become when the demands arise for you to have amniocenticis (sp) testing. [I bet he nags/whines like a baby to his wife] On the flip side, it may be good to be screened before pregnant in case of problems.

      However, find another doctor. After the pap he’ll want to thoroughly feel your insides to make sure you can have sex safely… [I’m guessing his reason for palpating your uterus]

    • Fertility is an unknown, we never know…
      My healthy friend had so much trouble getting and staying pregnant in her mid to late 30’s, she went through 5-6 years of heartache, whereas my SIL fell pregnant three times in her 40s and very quickly, (42,43 & 45) after 2-3 months of trying, they lost one baby (nothing to do with her age), the other two were born prematurely, but are now fit and healthy 3 and 4 year old boys.
      Of course, with the awful levels of over-treatment that flow from over-screening with the pap test, huge numbers of women have some damage to the cervix…this can mean infertility, miscarriages, c-sections, premature babies etc.
      Shamefully, (and conveniently) there is not much research in this area, the numbers would be interesting, but they don’t want to know….and definitely, don’t want us to know!
      The cervix is there for a reason…yet IMO, has become an object to be abused for profits and power. There needs to be a LOT more respect for the asymptomatic female body.
      I wouldn’t use a doctor who told me pap tests were necessary when you’re pregnant etc…they are never “necessary”…only an option, but should not be done during pregnancy or within 6 months of giving birth. (a false positive is even more likely due to hormonal changes or birth trauma)

    • Moo, you definitely should try to find another doctor, for your and your prospective baby safety. This doctor is lying to you, pressuring you and denying you proper health care service. You wouldn’t want to be in his “care” when you are in most vulnerable state – pregnancy.

      Pap smear is an elective, optional test . Always. Anywhere. In any country. For anyone, pregnant or not. If any quack says otherwise, it is a figment of his imagination, ignorance or greed.

    • The Dr is behaving unethically and needs to be reminded of his ethics:

      24. Respect the right of a competent patient to
      accept or reject any medical care recommended.

      He is also violating medical law by engaging in coercion and should be reported to the local medical association. You have a right to refuse any test or treatment without fear of reprisal and to have your concerns addressed.

35. One way to shut him up is to tell him you’d agree to one after your pregnant, but would he sign a legal notorized document that if his almighty pap causes you to lose the baby, he will gladly compensate you for pain and suffering, as well as mental anguish, with additional compensation should you be deemed infertile.

    My husband’s doctor kept pushing a colonoscopy on him. Last time I went with him to the doctor i mentioned the fact that colonoscopies can perforate the bowels. I was told it was “nonsense” and that the risk is minimal. So I asked if he would compensate my husband for pain and suffering, mental anguish, and pay all of his medical bills if that happens and put it in a notorized statement.

    Guess what his doctor never mentions anymore?

    • Another idea is try getting him to put his “sales pitch” in writing. If he’s saying that it’s useful for this or that, how safe it is, that he’ll deny medical care, etc… . Recording this discussion can be useful, too.

      Sometimes elaborating the situation can get them to back off (bringing up that this is an iatrogenic attack & has aggravating factors on top of it, that he does not have the option to attack the patient, etc…). You’re basically “making your case,” so that way it demonstrates that there’s no angle to use (no legal wiggle-room because the situation is depicted in sharp relief, you know how things line up & wouldn’t be easy to trick with false information, you’ve got some solidness to you & wouldn’t be easily pushed around).

      Keep something in mind: It seems that a lot of times people that like to attack people in that way don’t really like a solid target. They seem to like the situation of “taking a sledgehammer to a teacup.” Also, they seem to burn out when posed with a sustained conflict. Contrary to what you might hear pretty often on this subject (at least, in Amercia), fighting back is an effective option.

    • Lynne, that’s clever, I’ll keep that in mind.
      I’ve decided not to have a colonoscopy, my mother had surgery for bowel cancer a couple of years ago, but she was close to 80 when she was diagnosed, we have to die of something. Her specialist recommended we all have colonoscopies asap, we’re “high risk”…but when I questioned him more closely, he admitted we have a “slightly” elevated risk as our mother was older when she was diagnosed, you’re high risk if your first degree relative gets bowel cancer before age 60. So the sweeping statement to screen is only modified if you’re aware enough to challenge them.
      As it stands colonoscopies do not lead to a reduction in all-cause mortality (more heart attacks in the screened group, they don’t know why) and as you correctly point out, carry serious risk. It may be the FOBT is just as effective, Dr Gil Welch and his team at Dartmouth are doing a RCT to compare the effectiveness of both tests. You can’t discount the preference for the colonoscopy may have something to do with the great profits it generates for specialists and hospitals.

36. Some swabs for bacteria are needed during late pregnancy to prevent risk during delivery namely strep B for STD(which likely people knew they had before). A Pap test is for cancer which cannot be treated during pregnancy anyway. Any tumour in the cervix that would be large enough to interfere with birth would show up on an ultrasound. So it baffles me why a Pap test is “routine” in early prenatal. I would even refuse 6-8 week ultrasound. In fact I would not bother even telling my doctor I was pregnant until at least 20 weeks if I could. (We’ll not there yet) . Hoe scraping the cervix, disturbing the mucus plug and sticking a brush up the os 1-2 cm is not going to do anything baffles me. Many women claim that they were told their miscarriage a few days after a Pap test was not caused by the pap. Yet the medical community insists that paps and pelvic exams do not cause miscarriage.

    The cervix has a purpose in fertility, pregnancy and even sexual enjoyment. Even a natural miscarriage I let nature take care of that since a few d/c procedures or any procedure that dilates the cervix weakens it. So the fertility testing ultrasound of Fallopian tubes, entrometrial sampling etc that need some tool rammed up through the cervix damage it. The cervix is supposed to protect and filter and store sperm. It is a barrier to the outside world for the womb.

    Many women have said their hospital deliveries were nightmarish rapes with people constantly coming and going, medical personnel sticking their hand up their vagina constantly to check their dilation (disturbing and maybe not necessary) the awkward posture of birthing, the bright lights, noise.

    Yeah there are issues with my doctor that need work. However he has been leaving me alone lately – not pushing the paps.

    I am believing that most issues of fertility can be addressed with lifestyle changes (diet, avoiding toxins, exercises) and monitoring mucus and basal body temperature. It can be difficult to get information sometimes because everyone is selling something.

37. Moo,
    “So it baffles me why a Pap test is “routine” in early prenatal”
    Here it’s about coverage, pregnancy is a great time to “capture” women, the Pill, pregnancy and childbirth, even menopause, have been used to pressure/coerce women into elective screening and general excess. You’re wise to be cautious. I believe pregnancy is normal, like menstruation, almost all of the meddling that goes on during pregnancy is unnecessary. (and potentially harmful)

    I was shocked to see an American program featuring three gynecologists – their patients have a LOT of internal exams. The initial exam here was the invasive one, bimanual pelvic and breast exam and a pap test. More doctors here have ditched that exam now, neither exam is evidence based and both carry risk. I suspect women are still hassled about pap tests, but they should not be done during pregnancy or for 6 months following delivery…and can never be “required” for anything.
    I’ve read and heard it’s easier to give birth when you’re upright, but until recently, most women gave birth on their backs, sometimes in stirrups, and in the States, an episiotomy was routine in the 1970s – childbirth was a nasty medical experience. Most of the cutting was unnecessary, women were then left to endure pain and discomfort for weeks/months after delivery. Once again, no regard for the female body or for the well-being of the woman.

38. An interesting article about PAPs:
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/10/16/pap-smear-test.aspx?e_cid=20131016Z1_DNL_art_2&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art2&utm_campaign=20131016Z1

39. The only reference I could find about pap tests during pregnancy other than the indoctrinated “you have to have them”.
    PREGNANT WOMEN
    Pregnancy does not accelerate cervical lesions, and cervical cancer occurs in only five of 100,000 pregnancies.49 The rate of CIN 2,3 is only 3.7 percent on postpartum follow-up for women with prenatal ASC-US or LSIL.49 Postpartum regression is common in women with CIN 1 (36 percent) and CIN 2,3 (48 to 70 percent).50,51 Management of nonadolescent women with ASC-US or LSIL is the same as for nonpregnant women5,6; however, because of the low risk of cancer, the initial colposcopic evaluation can be deferred until at least six weeks postpartum.5,6 When necessary to rule out invasion, colposcopy and directed biopsies are safe in pregnancy,52 but endocervical curettage is unacceptable.5,6 Because cervical changes in pregnancy can mimic CIN, colposcopy should be performed by experienced colposcopists.5,6 Treatment is unacceptable without confirmation of cancer7,8 because of the risk of complications such as hemorrhage or fetal loss.53
    Pregnant women with HSIL should undergo prenatal colposcopy5,6 with biopsy of lesions suspicious for CIN 2,3 or cancer.5,6 Colposcopy should be repeated no earlier than six weeks postpartum if no CIN 2,3 is found.5,6 For pregnant women with CIN 2,3, repeat cytology and colposcopy may be performed every 12 weeks with repeat biopsy if the lesion worsens or cytology suggests invasion.7
    American Family Physician. 2009 Jul 15;80(2):147-155.

40. Elizabeth – Also the fecal test has a very high false positive rate. A person’s diet can give them a false positive. Too much fiber, red meat, and even aspirin can trigger a false positive.

41. Lynne,
    Yes, that worries me, and after a positive FOBT result so many go straight to colonoscopy.
    At the very least people should re-test a few months later, but then even if you got a negative result, (no blood detected) many would still worry about the first test result. The end result is the day procedure room. It’s a bit like the Americans piling up the cervical screening tests and the absurd articles that address the resultant confusion: “What to do if your pap test is abnormal and your HPV negative or your pap test is normal, but your HPV test is positive?”

    The FOBT is an example of a “simple” test that can lead you elsewhere. We should know about the diagnostic and treatment trail BEFORE we test, it’s often too late after we get an “abnormal” result.
    My BIL is having PSA testing every year, he says he won’t panic if his levels start to rise, just watch/monitor them, but I know Dr Welch and others say this can lead to lots of anxiety and eventually people cave and just want it checked out, “to be on the safe side”…of course, if the man is over 50 he’s very likely to have some non-life-threatening prostate cancer (the biopsy will confirm cancer) and that might mean losing the prostate gland and ending up impotent and incontinent (urine and/or feaces) or enduring more biopsies.
    Once you get a suspect biopsy though, some men opt to have the prostate gland out; cancer screening is a slippery slope.

    My husband has decided not to have PSA testing and the routine rectal exam is not recommended here. (he wouldn’t have it anyway, it’s unreliable) He gets no grief over these decisions, yet women who decline mammograms and pap tests are reckless and everything else. The double standard is alive and well.
    A friend (mid 40s) saw a new GP recently and when pap tests came up, she told him the truth, “I don’t have them”…there was a sharp intake of breath and a look of horror, “You don’t have pap tests!”
    He was horrified that an intelligent woman could be so careless with her health.
    “On the contrary, that’s why I’ve declined pap tests” was her response.
    It really is incredible that screening is viewed as compulsory FOR WOMEN by so many doctors, these unhealthy attitudes need to change and that starts with us challenging them, and sacking/avoiding the doctors who still dwell in the Dark Ages.

42. Elizabeth, that double standard truly is mind boggling in this day and age. Its breast cancer awareness month in the U.S., with all of the usual “catch it early” hype about mammograms in the media. If any question is presented in these articles, its always as to when a women should start screening, at 40 vs. 50, never if she should start, and its never, ever addressed that a woman has a choice in this matter and should be presented with the pros and cons and then decide for herself whether she wishes to screen. Yet every article that ever appears about prostate cancer screening has the slant that there are risks to screening and that the man should weigh the risks and benefits and then decide for himself. It just makes me livid.

    • Judy – I saw an article the other day that said women with a strong family history of breast cancer should start having mammograms done as early as age 25. It makes me livid as well that the risks are never listed when it comes to women’s screening programs. Furthermore, they’re never presented as an option or a choice. It’s so disrespectful to women and their bodily autonomy.

    • It is an interesting concept, isn’t it? That, for all purposes, reality doesn’t apply to women? If someone that has that style of reasoning, they’re not trustable. If these things are imposed (deception included), that is abuse- no matter if they have any utility or not. IF they do have utility, then it’s the patient’s own decision whether to utilize them or not.

      By-the-way: What happened to the icons on the side that used to be there? It says there’s no public comments to display.

43. I have to say this. FOBT fecal occult blood test is very inaccurate. Google FOBT and John Hopkins hospital and see what foods, even flashing teeth can cause false positives. colonoscopy have risks that are not worth it if you do not have family history or problems already. I know someone who was bullied into it and got back a letter saying now they are at risk of HIV, HPV and hep B because the equipment for colonscopy was not properly sterilized.
    FIT test is more accurate as it is detecting only human hemoglobin and not going to react to citrus fruits, brocholi or red meat. It would still give false positive to gastric bleeding or bleeding gums.

    Are some colon polyps so slow growing or benign that they are never going to cause cancer? They do not need to be removed or detected. Doctors like to scare people with the whole colon bags thing. Cancer is terrible but why torture people over 80 with all the tests and procedures? Let them die in peace and dignity.

    • Colon polyps are like “abnormal cells” in pap smears. The majority of them are nothing to worry about. The majority of people over 50 will have polyps in their colon. Again it is a money maker to have these things removed, just like chiseling away at the cervix for cells that won’t cause any harm.

      Another thing about the false positives with the fecal tests – Read up on how long you have to change your diet. Some advise changing the diet for 6 to 8 weeks prior to testing. And of course the next step would be a colonoscopy, “just to make sure”.

    • About 3% of polyps go on to become bowel cancer, of course, the presence of a polyp, especially if the pathology confirms “pre-cancer” or anything remotely suspect…often means intense worry for the patient and relief it was caught in time. Dr Oz and his “scare” seems to be an example of hysteria over nothing.
      97% of polyps never bother us, but everyone seems to forget that fact, to be fair, most don’t know that fact and assume all polpys would turn nasty at some point.
      As we get older we develop all sorts of things on our skin, age/sun spots, pigment changes and the same occurs inside our body…in other words, almost all of these changes are perfectly normal.

44. I have read a few internet blogs from women complaining about mammograms. They cause pain because the breat is compressed between two plates with 50 lbs of pressure. Some women complains of long lasting pain, discharge and disfigurement (swished, flattened, distorted) of their breasts. Other women nothing can be seen since their breasts are to dense. If nothing is wrong why bother. Other imaging technologies are better for investigating lumps that are causing a problem.

    The “screening” programmes just have to justify themselves into funding by getting victims.

    • I keep emphasizing the other side of screening. Sometimes a bona fide cancer is found. My mother was receiving hormone replacement. Routine screening found her cancer. The tumor had a core tumor that was aggressive. She is now 7+yrs post. However, my husband’s uncle was not screened. He died of colon cancer. None of these programs are strictly positive, nor are they negative either. But some are indeed a waste, or forced upon us in motivations other than medical.

45. I’ve known women who ended up badly bruised after a mammogram, also. Of course the screening programs have to justify themselves to keep getting victims. These imaging centers in hospitals, in the U.S. anyway, cost a fortune to operate and employ a lot of people. The last thing they want is for women to be given informed consent and then decide not to screen – it would cut into their profits. As in so many areas of women’s “healthcare,” money and control are the top priority, not the women themselves.

    • Isn’t it odd that whatever they say in approval of themselves is seen as justification? “This doesn’t actually help with anything, but it’s still important because of… well, nothing- but we still want things to go this way.”

      I’ve got to say: the term “justified” can cause a bit of an issue because it’s making the point that someone is “unjust” for blocking whatever action that someone is trying to do. It casts the patient in a “bad guy” light for halting something that they don’t want to have happen to them. Also, it can imply that utility (or possible utility) generates a situation of arbitrary discretion for someone else- that they “fire at will” & assume some measure of proprietorship of the other person.

      Keep in mind: this is the exact situation that someone that’s aligned this way would go for. If this is the “layout” of the medical environment, then don’t you think it’s going to attract “people” like that? It’s certainly seems the designation is that whatever they do is fine because they did it.

    • Unfortunately, at the moment, mammography is the best screening tool we have in regards to breast cancer. However, that doesn’t make it great. But other tests are in the process of being patented, such as MBI. It’s important women understand that yes, mammography is the best we currently have, but it still doesn’t decrease chances of dying from breast cancer that drastically, and women should be allowed to make this decision for themselves.

46. Cat and Mouse – I agree that there are positives to screening, and in some cases they do indeed help someone like your mom. Hormone replacement does increase a person’s cancer risk. But for a lot of people its about as reliable as tossing a coin. Screening a person with a higher risk is certainly warranted. Glad to hear your mom is okay 🙂

47. Hormone replacement does increase cancer risk so why exactly are/were doctors prescribing it? The “information” that the medical community is giving out is constantly changing. Women were told “soy, soy, soy” and now that is all changed. The research was biased because unfermented soy is not healthy.

    If you want to see a diagnostic protocol for breast concerns download this pamphlet http://qap.sdsu.edu/screening/breastcancer/bda/index3.html. Any suspicious symptom is outlined here such as lumps, pain, nipple discharge when not lactating. There is also a risk assessment table at the beginning. Regardless of risk, it pushes that all women should be screened at age 50 every two years and CBE (clinical breast exam) every year. Sorry, I do not agree since I do not need my breasts compressed and irradiated so often. I would rather just go with self exam and consulting my doctor if I need to.

    • A term in medical slang: TUBE (Totally Unneccessary Breast Exam).

48. I can understand why some women turn to HRT, I decided I’d only “consider” it (and that would mean doing my own research) IF the symptoms became debilitating and nothing else worked. I can’t eat soy, I react to it and my system gets rid of it very quickly. (if you know what I mean)
    Some women go through years of hell and virtually become social outcasts, they feel uncomfortable socializing, working etc. never knowing when they’ll turn bright red and start sweating profusely, the next minute…they’re freezing cold. Some women flood with no warning and fear an embarrassing accident. I have a friend in HK who lived with that worry for about 5 years. She also, hated friends trying to kiss her, her face was always wet, she’d carry facial blotting papers with her.

    I found the temperature variation annoying, but dressed in layers, bought cotton shirts etc. I managed the symptoms that way. Also, night sweats can mean you get little sleep so you ‘wake” feeling exhausted, irritable etc. Yoga can help, herbal tea or a warm (not hot) bath. Again, light nightwear and layers on the bed…sheet, light blanket, warmer blanket etc.

    The thing is: every woman will have a different experience, some symptoms worse than others, (I actually don’t like the word “symptom”…because it implies illness) overall I consider myself lucky, the temperature variation is easing, I’m sleeping well….it occurred to me recently that I haven’t been as sweaty lately…so fingers crossed, I might be heading out the other side. (At one stage
    I took a spare shirt to work and if I felt the need, freshened up at lunchtime)

    Some women breeze through menopause, others suffer a bit…or a bit more…or badly, we’re all different, but menopause is a normal phase of life, along with puberty, menstruation and pregnancy/childbirth. We shouldn’t allow the medical profession to medicalize normal phases of life – our bodies manage just fine in most cases, without medical management or interference.

    • I completely agree with you. My mother has had an absolutely horrendous time with menopause, she’s been completely miserable. HRT is the only thing getting her through it. However, the majority of women will be fine without HRT.

49. To Alex
    Hi Alex, you wrote in one of your comments about lack of respect to women and you mentioned childbirth in stirrups. I recommend a film to you about it – the film is very interesting and sad, I’m afraid. It’s about the attitude to childbirth in the USA (and I guess that not only in the USA). I can’t find the headline in English, but I’ve got it in Polish. The film was recorded in the USA and it is in American English. Just subtitles are in Polish. It’s really worth watching. Go to the YouTube and type: Porodowy Biznes which means the childbirth business. There are nine episodes.

    • Jola, thank you for mentioning this TV program. It is called “The Business of Being Born” and brings attention to problems in women’s health care, especially childbirth, in USA.

      Childbirth in USA has been monopolised by hospitals and obstetricians. Obstetricians are surgeons, and so they are not interested in normal births, they want to operate. Hence the high rates of unnecessary interventions and low rate of normal healthy births in USA, which is harmful for both women and babies.

      Midwives have been left out childbirth care in USA, even though a midwife can be the best advocate of woman’s interests when she is in the most vulnerable state. In the majority of births a presence of a doctor or a surgeon is not needed, and an experienced midwife can provide a more personal, gentle, private and humane care with more respect and dignity than it could be done in a hospital with a few personnel shifts changes and crowds of medical strangers and students walking in and shoving their hands into women’s genitals. Many women find this sort of experience worse than the unbearable pain. Hospitals, gynecologists and obstetricians act in the interests of their business, the medical system and statistics, not in women’s personal interests. This, unfortunately, often happens in other countries like Australia, not only in USA.

      The TV series can be easily found on YouTube and definitely are worth watching, especially for USA women.

    • Thank you, Jola! I don’t remember which post that was, but I definitely remember mentioning things about that a few times. It’s absolutely appalling that what should be the happiest day of a woman’s life (and her man’s, as well) is turned into a traumatic experience. I really can’t believe more doctors don’t get killed for stuff like that- they turn a hospital stay into an attack (it doesn’t even have to be with pregnancy, but that’s especially twisted).

      So many things confound me: Like how so many women bottle up that this is a problem for them. It truly seems like she’s worried about getting smacked in the face emotionally as a response to her bring up that this is, was, or would be a problem (I’d think confrontation isn’t as bad as situation, though). That’s another thing: How so many women can be so callous & cruel to other women. So many times, it’s actually WOMEN doing these things (and it’s made out to be perfectly fine because of that!). It’s presented as a non-antagonistic situation, but that’s simply untrue.

      By-The-Way: Don’t know if you’ve been reading the things on Obamacare, but it seems women might get backed into all kinds of exams in order to get insurance (which would be illegal to not have- so it’s a de facto law). There were two commercials on that on Youtube (one for men & one for women) that were titled “Don’t Let The Government Play Doctor.” There’s also something about forced home inspections that seems like it might involve comporting people’s medical situations (as well as forcibly putting people on prescriptions, vaccines, and foster care).

      Just talked to the Italian consulate & it sounds like I’ll be able to just go on ancestry.com & get citizenship in Europe for my heritage. I’d highly suggest people do similar, but there’s a lot of potential for things to get worse here (just look at how they already are). It’s not like dictatorial behavior is an uncommon thing in America.

    • I watched “The Business of Being Born” (there are 10 parts, the link takes you to the first one). It is a great documentary! Very sad. But it is the the truth that is sad.

      It is all about women left out of their of health care. They are not allowed to decide for their own bodies. Well… technically they are given options, but every “option” given by the doctor is for the doctor’s convenience and is presented as if it was good for the baby. And if the woman refuses such “option”, she is immediately accused of being a bad mother. So, in reality, the is no choice.

      The perfectly normal and healthy process of pregnancy and childbirth has been completely hospitalised. Women have been convinced that their reproductive functions and organs require constant medical surveillance and intervention. Nearly every woman in USA goes to hospital to give birth, and then finds herself on a conveyor belt of inductions and interventions.

      If her labor takes too long, the doctor either wants to go home in the evening (day shift) or doesn’t want to stay up all night (if it’s a night shift). So the woman is given contraction inducing drugs. After that, the contractions become unbearable, and she needs an epidural. After the epidural, she can’t feel her body properly anymore, and so she is given more induction… Eventually the chemically-induced contractions become too damaging for the unborn baby and the poor woman ends up with an emergency cesarean. Now the doctor can go home or to sleep, while the woman is told: “See how good that you didn’t have a home-birth! You need a major surgery! Thanks god you were in hospital!” And he poor woman believes this lie and will tell all her friends and relatives that they should go to hospital too. The sad truth has been lost: if the woman has stayed at home and hasn’t been put through this cascade of unnecessary interventions, she would not have needed the surgery.

      Any medical system acts foremost for its own convenience, and only then, if the patient’s interests happened to be along the course, does something to help the patient. Private hospitals are business: they want their beds to filled and emptied quickly, with maximum profits. Public hospitals are always short of everything, so they also want their beds to be emptied quickly. No one wants to patiently and gently care about the woman’s naturally long labor. The approach is “simple”: induce, slash, lie, take the money – and off she goes, freeing the space for the next trusty victim.

      Obstetricians are surgeons, they know nothing about normal healthy births. They are trained to give medications and to operate. And this is precisely what they do.

      This happens not only in childbirth. Our “favourite” pap smears are a part of the same system. Women are convinced that their cervixes need regular surveillance and scarping. And then they end up in a surgery room and are told: “Thanks god we caught it early”, while the truth is there was 99% chance the cervix would have healed on its own if it hasn’t been scraped, biopsied or burned. Same conveyor belt: scaremonger, brainwash, screen, do unnecessary interventions, screen again, operate again, and then thank the medical system for saving the woman.
      Saving from what?? From something that our bodies are capable of fixing on its own.

      Any woman, who trusts her health to the medical system, is dealing either with her MP/GP who have very superficial knowledge of every aspect of health and just blindly follow guidelines; or is referred to an ob/gyn, who are trained to slash, burn and poison. Neither of them is interested in helping her body to heal on its own. Too long and not profitable enough. Business comes first.

    • Barbara- Loved reading your post (it’s nice to see bad things called for what they are). You’re completely right, but don’t forget the potential for sadistic thrills & general pervyness. Sometimes money is the secondary concern. Women just get acted on in medicine- they apply influence at their discretion. It’s not strictly an order, but it’s “launching” this situation (whatever it is & whatever properties it happens to have).

      There are so many interjected actions with childbirth that have antagonistic dynamics & that doesn’t change if a woman does it. Sometimes it’s one thing or another, sometimes it’s a composite issue (like something that’s invasive & dangerous at the same time)- but I’ve noticed that with pretty much all of them , it’s disqualified. I mean, really: If a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder- so how is any other thing seen as non-existant because it’s done by medical personnel? Is it only organ theft if someone uses a hunting knife to steal a kidney, but not a scalpel? Of course not, the situation is what it consists of.

      It also puzzles me that so many women have had such horrible experiences giving birth & don’t want that to not be her daughter’s situation. There are no “cautionary tales” or a general support for her giving birth naturally. On the contrary, they back up the doctor & act like their agent. Then, when something bad happens, they’re just “so sorry.”

    • What a great documentary! The only caveat: some parts seem to be deleted from youtube. I found the whole video here: The Business of Being born.

50. A matter of logic here. My huge question after doing some research on HPV infection.

    Some references:
    http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Human_Papillomavirus_and_Cervical_Cancer

    “HPV (the types that cause cervical cancer) can only infect parabasal or basal cells–undifferentiated stem cells of the epidermis–most commonly in the transformation zone of the cervix, which is adjacent to the border of the endocervix and ectocervix. This area becomes more accessible during puberty, pregnancy, and when using oral contraceptives. Infection may be facilitated by micro abrasions on the surface; this allows better access to the basal cells, which are usually below several layers of epithelial cells”.

    So let’s assume that HPV infection can cause cervical cancer as most doctors will swear by “fact”.

    1. Microabrasions which can be caused apparently by sexual activity are how the virus can enter the cells. So if there is HPV on a penis or finger or object it is getting onto the genitals, into the vagina or onto the cervix by that method. How much microabrasion can be caused by sexual activities compared to how much abrasion is caused by a pap test with a spatula scraping around the cervical OS (where the transformation zone is in younger women) and sticking a brush up the cervical OS 1-2 cm (where the transformation zone is in older women)? So if there is one spot of HPV on the cervix already then the brush/spatula is going to spread it around everywhere like peanut butter on toast.

    2. If HPV is there in the cells then when they replicate and are shed they are going to be spread to other cells by sexual activity OR PAP TESTS.

    3. So why not do a test for HPV and find out if the HPV types associated with cancer are present in the vagina or on the cervix?

    Are the Dutch doctors the only ones who can follow any logic? Do pap tests make any sense to anyone since now it is generally assumed that cervical cancer is caused mostly by HPV which infects the basal cell layer through microabrasions?

    Further more not too many studies have been done on the transmission of HPV by formites (objects). Are people being infected with HPV from hand to hand contact, using public washrooms or from their filthy doctors offices?

    • Perfectly logical point, Moo! (I simply adore people who posses the ability to think logically! 🙂 )

      “How much microabrasion can be caused by sexual activities compared to how much abrasion is caused by a pap test with a spatula scraping around the cervical OS (where the transformation zone is in younger women) and sticking a brush up the cervical OS 1-2 cm (where the transformation zone is in older women)?”

      This could very well explain why women who never do pap smears rarely end up with their cervixes buttered for CIN of various degrees. The less scraping done to cervix, the less chance the HPV infection can get deep enough to cause trouble. Our bodies can easily fight off the superficial infection, but once HPV gets shoved into deeper epithelium layers by pap spatulas and brushes – welcome to surgery.

      So far, the Dutch medical system is the only one that acts precisely in the interests of women’s health and follows the “do no harm” rule. HPV self-test is liquid and can’t cause abrasions, and this is what they are offering to Dutch women instead of pap-scraping.

      It has already been proven numerous times that pap tests bring more harm than benefit to women. But they are cheap and lead to good profits for medical establishment, so they are still actively imposed on women and presented as “life-saving” tests, while the truth about the harm is kept in secret.

    • Moo, as gross as I think hospitals are, pap smears can’t spread HPV. HPV is a virus, and without a host it will become metabolically inactive and die. It needs to have living cells (on a penis, hand, mouth, or vagina) in order to survive.

    • ladyprotips, nobody said pap smears spread HPV or infect people with HPV. The point was made that pap smears cause micro-abrasions that let HPV (if it is already present in the woman’s body) get into deeper epithelium layers and, as a result, become more difficult for the immune system to fight it off, which leads to much greater chance of cervical cancer.

      In other words: pap smears don’t cause HPV, but they may contribute to cervical cancer.

51. Moo I read an article in the Medical Observer where it said 80% of transvaginal ultrasound handles were infected with various bacteria and viruses.

52. Rhetorical question, and forgive me if it’s been answered in another post…

    Let’s say, for the sake of argument, they do a Pap on a pregnant woman and discover she’s got full blown, bona fide, no question-about-it cervical cancer. What can they do about it at that point anyway? If she has chemo or radiation she will lose the fetus; if they operate on the cervix she will miscarry. And if they’re just going to wait until the baby is born to treat, well, they can wait for the Pap until then, can’t they (not that I think they should; I am against paps)? It just doesn’t compute for me.

    • That’s an incredibly unlikely circumstance, but I imagine it would depend on the stage of the cancer. Most likely, the doctor would tell the woman her options and she would have to decide whether or not to continue on with the pregnancy. That said, pap smears during pregnancy are something I have a hard time taking seriously.

53. There is very rare case when some strains of HPV will transmit to baby in the birth canal and cause eye infection or throat/lung infection with HPV. However it is not considered such a risk that Caesarian section must be done unless there are huge warts blocking the birth canal. It is mostly the “you wouldn’t want any infection you have to harm your baby” guilt trip and an opportunity to make money why women are almost forced to have paps and even colonoscopies during pregnancy.

    There is this ” preventing loss to follow up of abnormal pap” mentality. They can’t wait to treat an disease that will take perhaps decades to become cancer (if it happens at all) because even if they waited to the next pap, they might not be the ones that get the $$$$$ to do the biopsy and mutilation.

    The immune system in pregnancy is different so HPV will be more prolific. I have no doubts that doctors offices and maternity wards are so filthy with HPV that anyone could get it. They also want the pap done 6 weeks after birth and some months later. As if a cervix did not have enough happening to it during birth.

    I have read that some women refusing paps during pregnancy were rejected services by some ob/gyn and some even had children’s services investigate.

    If there were some huge cancer tumor then if would be visible in an exam or on an ultrasound. Cancer cannot be treated while pregnant and some women would abort.

    I just have huge concerns about Pap tests during pregnancy that they cause miscarriage especially during the first trimester. Ramming a brush up the cervical os could not be good for anyone.

    Another insight of logic, exam amniotic fluid and placenta for HPV after the birth and cell chances rather than scraping up a new mother’s cervix. Absolutely molestation free. Has anyone ever thought of that?

54. About the cervical canal. Shove the brush up there during a pap and spread the HPV. Apparently when a pap comes back atypical glandular cells ( the type of cells up in the cervical canal) the colposcopy MUST be done with the biopsy (using a sharp spoon up the os) and even an endometrial biopsy (shoving some metal rod up the cervical canal and pinching off pieces of the uterine lining). If they do not find what they are looking for (more atypical glandular) cells then they want to a cone biopsy (cutting out a huge piece of cervix) because that tumor ( if it exists) is hiding up there. I looked at the cytologist discussion board with photos of their slides. The cancerous glandular cells looked awhile lot like some other benign cells. Even the cytologists had trouble telling them apart with years of experience so what? They want to cut up some womens cervix just to make sure? ‘Cause it could be cancer or they were just needing to eat lunch.

    Sometimes the cone will be recommended in older women just because their transformation zone has naturally moved up into the cervical canal and cannot be “visualized” during the colposcopy. They NEED to find out WHY the pap is abnormal (it not accurate duh) so they want to do a cone.

    They just need to find what they looking for instead of leaving women alone to heal. They will say once a women has symptoms of cervical cancer it is TOO late! All CIN needs treatment. We’ll read a few studies and find out that is not so true.

55. Sorry I hate the auto correct feature. It keeps changing what I mean and using words I do not want. Please ask for clarifications.

56. Hi

    I’ve found two sites about cervical screening – stupefying things in my view. Here are the links: http://www.jostrust.org.uk/about-cervical-cancer/cervical-screening-smear-test-and-abnormal-cells?gclid=CM_fxdmwvboCFSrJtAod0moARg
    and
    http://www.rcog.org.uk/womens-health/clinical-guidance/cervical-smears-and-pregnancy-information-you

    Cheers

    • You have to wonder about the first article, the untrue statement that Pap smears prevent cancer. They do not. Having a Pap smear can no more prevent cancer than having a blood test or ultrasound. It is a cancer screening test and not a very good one at that. A pap might lead to a small percentage of women getting treatment that MAY remove abnormal cells (CIN3) thatMIGHT progress to cancer. It most likely will have a great number of women being treated for HPV infection that their body can deal with but if it was left alone and not scraped up all over their cervix they might heal more quickly.

      Comments on the second article:The UK system does not force pregnant women to get paps or colposcopist unless they were already having a serious problem such as having cervical cancer already. They also do not recommend pap until three months after birth.

      The American model is forcing pap at 8 weeks pregnant, and even several times during the pregnancy as well as 6 weeks postpartum. It even forces pregnant women to get colposcopist and claims that some treatments for condylatum and biopsies are “safe” if done by “experienced” colposcopists. They also claim that Pap smears NEVER cause miscarriage. I have read dozens of internet testimonies of women who started to spot and cramp after a pap and miscarried a day or two later. I have yet to find a study that shows that paps are safe during pregnancy and do not cause miscarriage.

      I can say that I would like a whole number of studies done on HPV and cervical cancer that would helpful. The problem is that HPV has never been grown in cell culture as far as I know.

      There was astudy done that found HPV DNA on surfaces (formites) in doctors offices. Please do not fall into the misconception that viruses do not survive too long outside the body. They do. How else do people get plantar warts from swimming pools or bath tubs? They are the same family of virus and they are not spread by sex or “direct contact” . The HPV virus is shed from the body with the skin cells that they grow in. So those skin cells on the pool deck contain the hPV virus and the skin cells on the toilet paper or people’s hand would have the HPV virus. The virus cannot reproduce outside of a cell but how long they remain viable (able to infect) outside the body is the question.

    • In regards to the first article, was CC ever the main cause of death for women? I’ve heard that thrown around a lot, but never read or heard any proof to actually back it up. Second of all, at least they outright say that it isn’t a screening test for cancer, only abnormalities. In the states, they refer to it as a cancer screening. Any time a woman gets abnormal results, she’s lead to believe that it is cancer or will definitely lead to life-threatening cancer.

    • Moo

      “The American model is forcing pap at 8 weeks pregnant”

      Yes.

      “as well as 6 weeks postpartum”

      Yes.

      “and even several times during the pregnancy”

      No. Just the one at the beginning. After 36 weeks it’s a pelvic exam every week, but that’s actually going away.

      “It even forces pregnant women to get colposcopist and claims that some treatments for condylatum and biopsies are “safe” if done by “experienced” colposcopists.”

      In America it’s mostly gynecologists who do colposcopies, not a specialist. My mother’s OB/GYN did all of hers.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2582798/ -HPV and Cervical Cancer

      “There was astudy done that found HPV DNA on surfaces (formites) in doctors offices.”

      I want that study, because I doubt it’s true.

      “Please do not fall into the misconception that viruses do not survive too long outside the body. They do.”

      I’m a biology student. No they don’t. They have to have VERY VERY VERY specific conditions (cold, moist place) to survive longer than a few seconds.

      “How else do people get plantar warts from swimming pools or bath tubs? They are the same family of virus and they are not spread by sex or “direct contact” .”

      They are still different strains of the virus. Plantar warts can survive because they need a cold, moist area (i.e. a swimming pool).

      Yes, gynecologist’s lie, ALL the time, and they’re raking in the gold because of it. However, biology is a real thing. Honestly, if what you’re saying was actually true, then everyone would be constantly and aggressively exposed to several oncogenic strains of this virus, and many, many people would be dying from HPV-related cancers every year.

      • ObamaCare will NOT weed out any assholes. The assholes are the only ones NOT opting out of that plan. There’s plenty uneducated women for those md’s (in name only) to play doctor on.

        Virus surviving outside the vagina? Have to agree. Nobody’s mentioned how HPV gets into the vagina; which most likely is a penis, finger, or mouth. Warm moist surface. Why aren’t men being treated for HPV? Can’t they simply reinfect women?

        Virus can survive on doorknobs & handles etc in doctors’ offices. These surfaces aren’t cleaned any more often than a doorknob in a public bathroom is wiped clean. How many women don’t wash their hands before touching themselves in the bathroom? Or make their lovers do same before touching them? Or lets say excess KY spills over onto the exam table and goes through the paper condom. Then you put your naked ass & nervous warm moist vagina on that same table, onto a new paper condom that just ripped through. Virus to go? How about the doctor’s pen & Rx pad? His/her lab coat w/long sleeves? Hep A can cause a restaurant to be closed permanently due to how long it survives “outside.”

        My dentist wipes every surface touchable in the room between patients, even the chair’s armrests & headrest. Now I know why and won’t complain about his high fees. My husband is a germ freak and I love him for that. He told me about washing my hands before undressing in the bathroom. He has seen ill & fevered fast food workers use the bathroom for #2, and come out with totally dry hands. What are the chances that flimsy tp failed to contain their mess?

        Nice to read that HPV can be tested via urine. Again, are men being tested? If a man doesn’t thoroughly wash his underwear etc he can also source out yeast infections. Both partners need to be treated.

        And, I suggest you all go on YouTube and watch cervix cryo surgery. See how destructive it is. No pain? I had one; pain was included free of charge. Watch the woman shake while her cervix is being frozen 2x.

57. Just one more thing from me – I doubt they will ever stop harassing women. I wonder how many site they are going to make about the topic. I just don’t know what to say. Words fail me.

    • Well, that depends on how you look at things. If you mean that they engaged in a desisting of activity that was self-generated, then they probably won’t. The specific situation of “them stopping,” though- that’s a different story. They can always be neutralized, in one form or another. The most important one, in my opinion, is things being prevented at ground level. It doesn’t make any difference one way or another how things are aligned administratively, the presence of implementation is the issue. Their can be all kinds of laws to prevent these things, but they still functionally OCCUR. Same’s true in the opposite direction (legal mandates without implementation).

      I don’t really figure it’d be wrong to impose these actions on them punitively- they forced this on someone, so this gets forced on them. I’m more of a combatively violent person when things get started up, but that obviously doesn’t apply to everyone & I keep thinking about that case in Pennsylvania with the 11-year-olds. Couldn’t help but figure my soul would go away (at least for a while) if that happened to my daughter.

58. I don’t know whether any of you have watched “An Idiot Abroad” by Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant. I saw an episode last night where they pressured Carl Pilkington into a digital rectal exam to screen for prostate cancer. Ricky scolded Carl for refusing the test at an earlier medical exam, “a simple test and you know your prostate gland is okay?”
    In fact the routine rectal exam is controversial and NOT recommended here (and I doubt it’s recommended in the UK) nor is PSA testing. So men are getting mixed messages.
    The exam could have endangered Carl’s health for no benefit. Also, no one should ever be bullied or pressured into screening.
    I note in the paper today that an Australian specialist disputes the findings of a study into the benefits of PSA testing. The study found a reduction in mortality from prostate cancer in men aged 50-70 who had regular PSA testing. Can’t remember the %, think it was about 24%

    Couldn’t help but cringe when the male doctor (after examining Carl) stated that, “men are not used to these exams”…continuing the paternalistic view of our bodily privacy, women are “used” to these exams, or…should be used to these exams, or…will have to get used to these exams.
    Of course, this is nonsense, almost all routine invasive exams and tests pushed at women are unnecessary…this is the sort of attitude that must be challenged.
    Also, some/many women who have regular pap tests never get used to them, some hate them, find them distressing, violating, painful etc. Some women are left traumatized after childbirth etc.
    I doubt it’s true that MOST women are used to these exams and tests. It’s just that the medical profession doesn’t care and by telling us how we feel, we have the problem if we don’t agree with their sweeping generalizations. It’s another way of neutralizing our voices and rights and treating our bodies like medical property.

    • I haven’t watched it, but that does not surprise me. In America, while there may not be as much coercion from doctors in regards to the prostate exam, there is coercion from peers most definitely. Men here are expected by their friends and family members to participate in the screening. Also, I’ve heard it stated before that women are “used” to these exams. I remember when the whole TSA security thing started, I heard someone say “well at least women have yearly exams, so any sort of security checks will be a piece of cake for them”. Paternalistic, indeed. A final point for this comment – it’s interesting that breast cancer, cervical cancer, and prostate cancer are considered to be the most common, when past statistics would say otherwise. What’s even more interesting is that there are screening programs for these three types of cancer, and no others (with the exception of screening for colorectal cancers, but that doesn’t seem to be pushed near as much, even for high risk people). Lastly, the lack of information in regards to HPV and cervical cancer is mindboggling! I just spoke with someone who previously worked in the medical profession about HPV and was discussing natural cures I had heard about in regards to possibly clearing the virus. When I said that the treatments might be useful for men as well, they said “Can men get HPV? I thought only women could have it.” So that just goes to show that even some working in the medical field are not being told all of the facts. My question is, what ARE the professors at colleges and universities teaching their students if they lead them to believe that only women can contract HPV?

59. I have found some studies where HPV has been grown in tumour cell lines, not normal human cells.

60. I had another interesting call from my surgery today.

    “Hello, is that Mint?”
    “Yes”
    “Oh hello, I’m the new Practice Nurse at *** surgery and I’m calling you today because according to our records you haven’t had a smear test for over 5 years”
    “How do I know you are calling from my surgery?”
    “I’ve got your records in front of me, I can confirm your date of birth”
    “I know my date of birth”
    “I need to speak to you about your smear test”
    ” How do I know you are a nurse?”
    “You are wasting my time”
    “You called me!”
    “Goodbye”

    I know it was the surgery as their number came up on my phone!

    • Mint, this is priceless! 😀
      “You are wasting my time”, says a person who intruded your private life with her phone call after digging into your personal medical records without you asking for that, and attempted to advertise you an outdated, unreliable, dangerous elective test.

      I loved your responses! Indeed, how do we know…? The medical establishment thinks it’s their privilege to ask questions, and the patients have to answer or provide proofs. That nurse didn’t particularly enjoy being put on the other side of the fence, did she? 😉

      Yesterday I’ve been speaking to a friend. Initially we were discussing door-to-door marketers, then spam, and eventually the annoying medical “reminders”. She is a bright girl: she said when she was filling the paperwork in her doctor’s medical practice a few years ago, she brought a fat marker with her and wrote all across the top of her form “no screening, no reminders”. And she hasn’t been harassed so far at all. Perhaps, we all should do that.

    • Nice! Never thought of “endless loops” as a strategy. Plus, the whole credibility angle was a nice turn-around- since they always act like something has to “pass muster” with them.

      I always wonder what happens when that “need” goes unfufilled? I guess it doesn’t happen, so it doesn’t occur? Oh,no!- a GOAL is hanging in the balance!

61. Incredible we have limitless resources to chase women for pap tests, but struggle to care for the elderly, those actually unwell, for the mentally ill etc.
    Yes, vested and political interests certainly control women’s healthcare.
    I could top you though Mint, I’ve never had a pap test so no pap test in 55 years, that would blow up their recall system…that would make my day.

    • Elizabeth, that would be a great explosion to watch. With fireworks! 🙂

62. Some ways to stop the pap pestering:

    1. Send an anonymous letter to your doctor saying it was sent on behalf of a patient who is survivor of childhood sexual abuse and they need many accommodations for exams. You can find this on line. It is just too much trouble for them to accommodate. Plus they will not want to be threatened with the fact that they are harming their patient more by pestering, that is legally.

    2 . Just tell them to stop calling. Note it on the chart. Harassment is illegal. However keep in mind that employees are just doing what they are asked to. Often doctors are given incentive payments to even remind about paps.

    3. If you know your doctor receives incentives to test, offer him/her money not to test. Actually they should not accept.

    4. If there is a central registers that sends out letters ask that they stop sending them. I have done this but I cannot get my personal information removed.

    5. If you are going to get any pap or HPV testing done ask that your doctor send it to a lab that does not report to the central registry (well beforehand) and tell them they have no permission to share that information with other medical offices.

    6. Make up a fake lab report and give it to your doctor. I am not sure how this goes legally because if a doctor fakes medical reports it is illegal.. Faking your own might be troublesome but would save some hassles. Rarely are they going to check.

    • A good list, but I partially disagree with the second one. Occupational doesn’t mean fictional, so it makes no difference if someone’s “just doing their job.” This situation is being brought into being & that’s the point that should be focused on. The ones that put it into practice may not have masterminded the whole thing, but you’ve frequently got to “cut off the arm to cut off the head” (both figuratively & literally- you never see someone feeling bad about breaking someone’s arm to not get put into a choke hold).

      I know this might come off as ruthless, but there are occasions where you don’t have a “perfect enemy.” Someone might not make it obvious that they get off on causing you harm or that it really doesn’t make any difference to them one way or the other (and that disregard isn’t exactly a state of friendship, now is it?).

      Not to make anyone paranoid, but there are a bunch of other reasons I mention this is. One is because of the growing trend of administrative attack in America- that whatever is done, as long as it’s done officially, is considered fine no matter what the properties. I’ve said it before, but it’s like the concept of saying “whatever a priest does isn’t wrong” or “whatever the doctor does isn’t an attack.” The same idea applies to “whatever a cop does is protection.” That “what if something else happened?” type of answer is still pretty common as a defense for whatever lunatic shit someone pulls, too.

      More & more there’s been things getting legal support or functional enforcement regardless of laws & a sanctioned attack doesn’t consist of different things. It’s a coin-flip if the court helps you out or screws you over & things might very well turn around on you if you don’t get declared right (false accusations & such). That can definitely have implications with regard to imposed medical situations (or law enforcement ones involving doctors). Nobody’s got any money for legal fees, either.

      Everything is considered slander or politically incorrect or otherwise offensive- so a variation of censorship both in & out of the media. They’ve also been getting weird with religion, like they’re trying to ban it functionally by responding to it with hostility or deprivation (something that happened in both Germany AND the Soviet Union). Companies have been acting more & more like employees are their machines (and insurance companies have been acting the same way with coverage holders). Not to sound paranoind, but these are all warning signs.

      Another thing is facilitation of attack. For instance: the computerization of information makes a lot of things easier (harassment is an obvious one with the various registries, but maybe that turns into grounds for warrants- ex: “you don’t have a record of this or that so now you’re under arrest.”). Definitely sounds like what happened in Romania.

      I’ve been wondering for a while on those “abuse screenings” that get integrated into exams. Don’t know if someone is throwing anything extra into these exams or if they’re just deriving information from something that’s already taking place, but how hard would it be for them to lie or misinterpret something & get the woman’s husband locked up? Maybe there’ll be incentives for reporting domestic violence? They already are this way with cancer & surgery- why not with sending someone to prison? Ulterior motives are a serious possibility with that, too. Maybe getting back at someone or men, in general? Maybe a way of hurting the woman by hurting her husband (or getting her husband to think she lied about him to destroy their relationship)?

63. This woman has written a thoughtful account about an early experience with an aggressive doctor who had invaded her body with a speculum without her consent. She now affirms that it was indeed sexual assault. The more these narratives appear in public forums the closer we move towards more women coming to the realisation that routine vaginal exams are not benign, they do adversely effect many women in a variety different of ways.
    http://skepchick.org/2013/10/providerassault/

    • Sadly she was assaulted and as she recognizes it wasn’t just the exam but also the fat shaming. What’s also sad are the comments where the posters have bought in the myths and lies surrounding pap smears including that it used to be a major killer of women.

64. OT but this is a fascinating report on statins. The same pressure tactics that are applied to pap screening are being applied to statins. Doctors are sacking patients for not taking statins, some need to have a target of 80% of their patients on statins. This story is on two parts. the link is to the second part but both are well worth watching. it has caused a bit of a stir here.http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/heartofthematter/

65. Something interesting that’s been in the media as of yesterday (at least here in the US), is that a 16 year old invented a blood test which accurately and affordably detects a whole slew of cancers. I can’t remember all of them, but one in particular was ovarian cancer. Considering the accuracy and affordability has been discussed so publicly, I wonder if that’s going to put an end to the old pelvic exams? Or will they find another reason for them to be necessary? Either way, the truth about accurate, non-invasive testing is at the very least being talked about in the mainstream media. One further thing I’m thinking about in regards to all of this, though; will there be “professionals” who start claiming that it can’t be trusted since a 16 year old invented it? I suppose only time will tell. Either way, I’m still impressed that the media has openly published this. Certainly one more step in the right direction.

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