forwomenseyesonly

Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.

3,978 comments

    • hmm well that’s very uh ….interesting? I like that it shows autonomy and a woman doesn’t need a dr invading her body but um theyre turning it into something edgy and rebellious- making it seem “scandalous” to garner attention. They’re really no better than all of those stupid mags that make anything gyno related fashionable and trendy -face palm- they are soooo missing the point

      • yeah exactly they are like those stupid girly mags- turning the whole gyn bullshit into some edgy and creative past time, an opportunity to bond over…phew, makes me puke

  2. It has some annoying twists to it. I wonder if anything ever gets measured/thought-out reasoning here? Ever notice how it’s always a trend or a fad? Whatever “it” is, it’s something that’s always got to have some “pop culture fashionability” to happen. There’s a real “Kelly/Ryan from The Office” tendencies in people around here.

    It’s good that they looked into the history or it & got pissed-off, though. Maybe there’s some questionability now? Ancel Keys would be another good one to look at (the “meat/fat/butter/milk/cheese will give you a heart attack” guy). Then again, there’s the whole “brain pills that’ll give guys tits” thing.

    I didn’t like the first (affirmative) sentence, which I notice is typical with ANY critical article. About anything. Is that just a reflex to people crying “discrimination” whenever someone says something? I’ve noticed that it’s almost like making a point that you don’t endorse slavery all the time. People look to “play lawyer” & get you “convicted.”

    • Elizabeth that woman’s comments dropped my jaw but she’s been brainwashed into the smears save lives and isn’t informed. Cat cuddles may have seen your and adas comments and done her research. I hope she has and made her decision…

    • And here I thought Scottish women were so independant (non-wishy-washy).

      Maybe it’s unfair to just go by one person, but I’d have thought for sure that anything like that kind of shit they pull in Britain with hounding people on the phone & sending things in the mail & that extremely creepy poster with the little kid on it would be seen as scams & schemes. Probably English scams & schemes. Or American scams & schemes. You get the idea.

      I’ve got to ask: What’s the good in “saving a life” if someone loses custody of it? For crying out loud, these people don’t go for liver biopsies or brain scans every 6 months or 2 years or whatever the hell the “suggestion” is. I can safely say that I’ve never thought I was innately going to die of testicular cancer or prostate cancer, any more than I thought I was destined to get stabbed to death or get my head blown off. Don’t mean that as bragging, I just don’t get why women think this is a probable situation out of all things that are female-specific or that are more typically associated with women (hysterical pregnancy, rape, serial killers with mommy issues, etc…). There’s so many things that are more typical with women than men that they don’t worry about or don’t start doing any rituals or regimens to hedge against.

      • Can’t answer that. I’ve never worried about cervical cancer. No one I know has had it and it’s not in our family. I guess it’s just individual women and the degree to which they believe the hype

      • Can’t answer that. I’ve never worried about cervical cancer. No one I know has had it and it’s not in our family. I guess it’s just individual women and the degree to which they believe the hype. Maybe they hate the test but go because of peer pressure or because they are pressured by doctors or have pill withheld. It’s very hard to refuse a doctor and I. Think a lot of women give in to avoid the constant hassling invitations.
        You’re right it is a creepy scam but I think individuals feel powerless. That’s why sites like this is so great it’s turning the tide. Women are challenging the system.
        I’ve posted the hassle I’ve had even though I signed the disclaimer, this isn’t my year health wise in addition to the anemia I now started getting awful pain in my knees it’s waking me up, so yet again it’s off to the doctor.
        I’m sure I’ll be told I need a smear, so I’m taking a card with me literally saying “I’m here to discuss knee pain. I’ll answer all questions about that and also the anemia if it could be connected. I will not discuss smear testing or HRT. If smear comes up I’ll show the card!

      • Kat: If they’re pulling shit like that in Britain, why not just go somewhere else in Europe? It seems like it’s not 100% that way. Actually, it seems to be more prevalent in “Anglo” & “Germanic” countries. Even thought there’s a lot going on with people going all over the place & you might not want to venture blindly into some places that used to be cool (ex: Milan, from what I hear), I’d think it would be something accessible. Maybe if you show up as a “refugee” everything would be free?

        I damn sure don’t trust much of anything that comes from American medicine & will probably do any dentistry (if I do any) in Europe. I notice American medicine is frequently a “revesed” situation (things work out exactly the opposite of how they’re advertised & there’s a concept of bolstering the issue to vitiate the issue (like pouring gas on flames to make them smaller- a constant theme in America, doesn’t matter what the subject is).

      • Hi Sue
        Unfortunately I have limited Internet access at the moment, hopefully, they don’t close the article for comments before we can respond. I tried to respond, but my connection to that site is really slow.
        The first glaring point, a pathologist has a vested interest in pap testing, over-screening means more profit. Also, where are the references backing up his assertions, cervical cancer has always been rare in the developed world!
        He probably feels threatened by our comments, forget hard evidence, scaring women and causing confusion is his approach…that’s telling. Incredible he accuses me of ignorance when he hasn’t backed up anything he’s stated, aggression/rudeness and dismissal of critical comment are also, tactics used to silence anyone providing real information on this topic. Are the Dutch and Finns ignorant as well?

      • Hi Elizabeth,
        You make excellent points. He certainly has a vested interest, and I agree his tactics are of the Neanderthal variety. The article has since been replaced with newer articles and has dropped off the page. Still, some rebuttals were approved including the comment re “arrogance and ignorance”. The NYT appears to be more advanced than many. Alan Schwartz, a reporter from the NYT, is a keynote speaker at the 2015 Preventing Overdiagnosis Conference: http://www.preventingoverdiagnosis.net/?page_id=76

      • Really, does pulling out the old “before the pap test women were dropping like flies” argument really justify anything? I just do not know where that “fact” comes from. Even statistics from third world countries do not report women all dying from cervical cancer which could not be reported as accurate because they do not have the resources to do autopsies if they do not even have resources to treat other illness.

        The other one that gets much use is ” half of the women diagnosed with cervical cancer did not have a pap test in the last 5 years”. Does that statistic include women who were getting colposcopies every 6 months or women who had AIDS or their immune systems supressed? But then what about the other half? They could have had paps every year and still got cancer. But still these numbers are few in the total population because we all know the rates of cervical cancer of drug addicted prostitutes in third world countries is less than 1%.

        “Pap tests prevent cancer”. No, they do not. The pap test is a cancer screening test. However it gives the results of not just cancer yes or no but of HPV infection which could rarely develop into cancer but make some doctors rich unneccessarily trying to treat it. If components of green tea extract and turmeric root kill HPV infected cells then why hasn’t there been a pill or cream to treat CIN developed? This has been known for many years.

        I am just so tired of repeating the same mantra. We get accused of being ignorant of the facts or recent studies or medical agendas when there are bunch of ladies on this forum who have nothing better to do than surf the net and read medical journal articles half the day. Reading articles like the NY times ones just reminds me that I trust my car mechanic but not a doctor. I remember why.

  4. On Dr. Bernstein’s blog there has been quite a bit of discussion on the “hidden curriculum” – how what medical students are taught in classes about respect for their patients is subverted by what they learn from the attending physicians in clinicals.

    On Aug 21st Mary posted a link to the Annals of Medicine article about the dark side of medicine. The following is a link to a follow-up blog article – warning, it is pretty graphic and blunt – and made me sick to read it:
    http://getbetterhealth.com/confronting-scandalous-physician-behavior-the-annals-of-internal-medicine-takes-the-first-step/2015.08.17

    Unfortunately, I think that there is no way we can rely on the medical system to initiate the changes that need to be made. I respect the many instructors for 1st & 2nd year medical students that take great effort to instill in them a principle of respect for the patients they encounter – unfortunately all to often those efforts are subverted by the paternalistic attitudes of the attending physicians they are assigned to work with.

    The screening programs are a good example – their official propaganda acknowledges the patient;s autonomy and right to refuse, while at the provider level they carry on with intimidation and coercive tactics – business as usual.

    Sadly, I believe that nothing is going to significantly change until enough patients get fed up and decide they’re not going to take it anymore, and stand up and advocate for themselves.

    Hex

  5. yes i feel all screens should be by applied consent. Women have the right to make an informed decision on procedures performed on them.
    even colon scocopy should be the patient decision.
    i feel that all these procedures cause more harm than good.

    its like they want to find something. Hey more $$$ for them.

    i am tired of being treated like i’m some part on an assembly line.
    i agree with who side they trust their car mechanic more than their dr.

  6. This is a little off topic but I wanted to share. Today I went to a dentist to get a filling because my tooth broke In half. I had been there two weeks ago for a tooth extraction. Today as the dental hygienist walked me back to my room and I sat down. She looked three my records and said “when was your last cleaning and cheek up with exrays. I said when I was 13. She said “I know you haven’t had one done hear”. I remeberd back when I was little the cleanings whould hurt so bad and leave my gums bleeding. Also I do not have insurance and can’t afford to pay out any more money. I told her no I’m not going to get that. She said ” So your just going to come in when you have pain?”. I decided to not answer or feed into it. I could tell she didn’t respect my refusel . I wasn’t rude when I told her no. She went on about getting oral cancer screenings I told her ” I do not believe in it. She said ” we have to recommend it. She thin said the dentists well be in to see you. I told her thank you. She didn’t say your welcome just stormed out. I was trying to stay firm with out yell even tho I felt the comment about only coming back when I had pain was her being sarcastic/ rude. She should have just accepted no and moved on I understand that they are told to talk about “prevention” . I also do not want an exray on my head every year. I don’t want extra exposer to radiation. I know this isnt gym related but its like the way woman get treated a
    With pap smears when they go to a doctor for unrelated problems. I got into a argument with my my grandma about his and she said that lady was right I do need cleaning. She said her gums get sore too when there cleaned it was normal. I got so upset I blew a fuse.

    • I do not like to compare dentists to doctors in too many ways. The screening for oral cancer is using a special blue light in the mouth. I would not say it is really too bad except they tend to pull your mouth too much.

      It was a dental hygenist who first told me about this website. She also had commented about a few women in our social circle who she thought had been given unneccessary LEEP procedures. She told me that most HPV infections resolve in a few years and that doctors really got away with so much that most dental practices would not. This I might understand to be the levels of office hygeine and the sterility of equipment. She is also very aware of how other staff treats her patients in terms of giving preventative advice and just polite customer service.

      There are a few websites that give good adivce to preventative oral care that you can do at home yourself. Chewing xylitol gum can reduce bad mouth bacteria. Flossing and removing plaque from your teeth at home can be done. I do not like to floss because it hurts but my husband bought me a water flosser and the dentist gave me a type of floss that does not cut my gums. I am also happy to say that some dental practices do realize some adult survivors of childhood abuse do have issues around being in the chair with people over them etc. I do believe it is as wrong for a dental professional to blame the patient for disease just like it is wrong for a doctor to blame a woman for disease because they “had sex” or “didn’t have regular pap tests”.

  7. Don’t you just hate it when someone acts like they know what’s best for you better then you do? That attitude is precisely why I avoid drs. I don’t care how many years you went to medical school you can’t say after 15 minutes you know more about my body than I do after living with it for 25 years! Also now that I have reached the “target age” (way to make me feel like there’s a bullseye on my back , or rather between my legs!) I have firmly decided I will not be getting paps or any std tests…how can 2 virgins get any stds? and yet I’m sure they’ll find some excuse to try and rope me into it…anything to make a buck, right?

    • Emily,

      They’ll undoubtedly hit you with something along the lines of “how can you be sure your husband is faithful, after all everyone knows men have the morals of an alley cat.”

      Of course being male, I’ve never had them try something like that on me…….i can think of several really good potential responses though……

      I’ve come to the point where I politely but firmly tell them I have made an informed decision that I am comfortable with, whether they approve or disapprove of my decision is irrelevant and I consider the subject closed, let’s move on.

      Hex

      • Hi Hex. You are so right. Why is it presumed men have the morals of an alley cat? My husband and I were virgins when we married and neither of us has ever strayed. Yet when I have had arguments in the past over smear tests the first thing the nurse comes back with how can I be sure my husband has been faithful? No mention of me or what I could get up to as if all women were saints. Also when my husband goes into schools to fix the childrens play equipment he is treated by the staff as if he is a ptential predator and they watch his every move. Its as if the whole world thinks there is something fundamentally very wrong with men. Its disgusting.

      • > Its as if the whole world thinks there is something fundamentally very wrong with men. Its disgusting.<

        …Unless they happen to be physicians… then they're saints.

      • Aw, thanks you two. I appreciate that it’s not “men are shit” with everyone. Sure, bad experiences will likely color someone’s opinions a bit, but in truth I think more often than people realize it’s the predatory kinds of people that are against whatever might be a danger to their endeavors. A man would very likely be “monstrous” to them if he caught them trying something with a kid. Brings a smile to my face just to think about how “bad” it could be.

  8. Lol yeah I just love the “How can you be sure?” line. Umm because we’ve been together for 5 yrs and never spent a day apart! It’s true…we moved in together after 4 mos and haven’t slept in separate beds since 🙂 On a somewhat related note my beloved and baby crazy darling is now baiting me to marry him and have a baby by promising me I could quit our awful job and just stay at home. Curse him and his devilish charms lol. We work in a call center servicing credit cards for Barclays bank…pretty miserable job but the pay/bens are about the best you can get in the US. He even researched it and found out our company’s insurance will cover a midwife instead of an OB! I felt like a wealthy investor listeing to a presentation where someone is making a pitch for me to invest in their business lmfao. Oh how I love that man. Stay strong Kleigh…u r beautiful

  10. Daily mail today, the usual, young newly wed died of cervical cancer after being initially refused the smear she begged for,

  11. Turns out it’s extremely unlikely the smear would have picked up her cancer as it’s rare form of cc not often seen. Family are still campaigning to lower age

    • Lower age of first smear invitations to save other women, I don’t get it. Excuse separate messages my Internet is messing

  12. Hi Kat. I don’t know why families do this. These cancers apparently wouldn’t get picked up by useless smear tests anyway but the first thing they do is start moaning about lowering the age. Perhaps it helps them personally with their grief but why subject other young women to this vile test when it will do them know good. Its interesting that the gov stand firm on 25 being the minimum age.

    • I know Linda and what got me was reading a post by Elizabeth on another forum to a 21 year old about the risk of unnecessary treatment

    • Well, the NHS refuses to explain to the public that there’s more than one type of CC and the pap crap is useless at detecting the one that develops in young women. They just keep spouting out the same old lines about doing ‘more harm than good’ in young women. Well it does more harm than good to ALL women for starters! I guess they’re terrified of giving too much information out in case those of us who haven’t been completely brainwashed start to see the screening ‘story’ for the propaganda it truly is.

      Women have been told for years that this is the ‘perfect’ test (haha) and that treatment is ‘minor and harmless’ yet when the NHS claims that screening does more harm than good in the under 25’s no-one ever seems to spot the contradiction!

      Time and time again I’ve read stories on young women who report to their doctors with symptoms, begging for a smear test and being turned away… there are guidelines in place which tell GP’s to refer any young women with symptoms for colposcopy because the scrape test is so bloody unreliable… they shouldn’t be using it on ANY woman as a diagnostic test, frankly.
      If these families actually pursued the dumbass GP’s who gave their patients the brush-off instead of starting up another stupid crusade against the program, then perhaps that might make a difference.

      The hysteria surrounding this disease is beyond ridiculous… I mean, I’m sure there are quite a number of people under the age of 60 who die from bowel cancer yet there are no campaigns to lower the screening age. And this is a self-sampling kit, a far cry from the invasive crank ‘n scrape.
      But maybe that’s the reason why there is so much attention devoted to CC. The more repellent a test is, the more pressure has to be applied to ensure the survival of the programme.

      • The screening age for bowel cancer may be 60 in the UK. If they are doing a blood/stool sample/test, which is not invasive, that is one thing. In the US, the screening age is still 50, with groups trying to lower it. The screening here is massively invasive – a colonscopy, with a sort of waking anesthesia with a troubling side-effect profile which is irritating to some and disabling to a few. Doctors push these 5-year colonscopies with the same gusto they do paps.

  13. The lady lived in Scotland. It’s awful doctors are behaving like this and risk cutting women’s healthy organs. As you say maybe it helps the family in its grief but…

  14. So true Kate, so true. The inventor of the pap crap must have had a well warped mind I mean seriously!! And it’s not as if the

    • Test actually works!! My doctor actually asked me why I didn’t want a smear test, I was literally gobsmacked.. He probably had an eye on the incentive payment..

      • Actually, I think the inventor of the test was a decent guy with good intentions, but he didn’t understand the workings of the female body and thus made a lot of false assumptions. The real blame lies with the medical boards who approved the use of the test without proper evaluation and all of the assholes who know full damn well how hopeless this test is yet continue to promote it. There are just too many snouts in the trough.
        And yes, it’s quite common for women to be asked ‘why’ when they refuse a test – it’s one of the little tricks they use to ‘encourage’ women to drop their knickers. They just want to hear your ‘excuse’ (as they see it) so they can argue you into submission. Best not to get draw into such a debate – your reasons are none of their damned business anyway!

        Diane, at 43 I’ve still got a while before I get my ‘invitation’ for mammograms, but I can assure you I will NOT be going.
        Of COURSE all of the ‘women’s health’ bullshit is invented by men. We’re nothing but cash cows, trotting obediently along to be milked. And the guys are now complaining about all the medical attention women receive, poor lambs.
        Right, guys, you want the same healthcare as a woman? Place your manhood into this metal vice and have it squeezed tight so we can scrape the skin away from your snake eye. Then you can have your testicles crushed flat and pumped full of radiation… all for your own good, ya know! Yeah, I can see that happening. :s

  15. it had to be a man who started mammograms! No women would make others have their brest squished into a machine. i feel they have a a lot of flee positives lading to unnecessary biopsies!
    i’m sure this causes damage.

    am i the only who does not get them.

    • Diane at 51 I’m awaiting my first “invitation “to mammogram and I will be refusing to go as well. To crush delicate tissue and then nuke it makes no sense to me!

  16. Hi Diane. I got a letter to have a mammo in May. I sent them an email refering them to the work of peter golchze and the cochrane inst as well as some others and told them I wouldn’t be attending the app they sent me. I am not gaving my breasts crushed by that machine. I have never heard anything. My frirnd had a terrible experience and to this day i know another friend of mine had unecessary treatment which included chemo. This mammo thing is so dangerous it needs to be stopped. No way will i ever have them.
    The problem is no one questions my decisions anymore they just let me be which is a shame really as i’m dying to have a go with someone over it. Especislly the snotty practice nurse at my surgery.
    My hub will also be refusing tests when the time comes the nhs want to go where no one else dares to go! We are done with doctors. Since finding this site i am empowered to just say no.
    The difference between me and you is that i am 5.8 tall and big and used to ordering people and kids about so no one messes with me really.

    • yes i am small 5’1 so i have to be tough especially in Drs office. i understand about questioning your decisions. i get strange looks when i say i choose not to have the screening.

      i hate when these medical office workers hink they are little gods, sand you are nothing
      another product on the assembly line! i had one refuse to reschedule an apt.
      i asked for a supervisor and requested in writing why i could not no answers.

    • To all the Brits on this website, I just noticed from an email from my union that from 1st September this year, that NHS administration has now been privatised and is now in the hands of private conglomerate “Capita”. This includes all our medical records and the summons and recall demands of the breast and cervical screening programmes, which will now be dealt with by this private company. I wonder if this will result in any changes?

      • Looking at this company’s website there seems a conflict of interest. They also cover medical legal business and insurance claims. I would wonder if contacting your government rep and demanding what type of public board for complaints against criminal abuse of patients will be available would be a suggestion. Also if you have a no contact order to the screening are they going to honour that? Businesses run to make profits though. I have to wonder what will happen?

      • It will indeed be very interesting to see what happens. We’ve recently had a case on the news, where a sexual health clinic accidentally released details of its HIV+ patients online. The hospital admitted the error and has apologised, but it is food for thought how Capita will manage our personal data. Section 251 of the Health and Social Care Act specifies that any breaches in confidentiality could spell the end of the cervical screening programme.

        I just checked the NHS Screening Committees most recent minutes, and they are still discussing how they are going to roll out the HPV test to replace cytology. A final recommendation on this will be issued this coming November. I saw on another website a 26 year old from Manchester say that with her first pap test call up, she was surprised to be offered an HPV self test kit to try at home first. Of course, hers ended up being positive and this had to be followed by a smear test, which came back negative, but they are clearly trying this out in a few UK cities. Sadly not where we live. The main concerns of the screening committee seem to be on winding down the cytology business – labs and workers will be reduced to fewer centres, and they are also concerned about an announcement resulting in a “premature flight from cytology”. Just as Elizabeth says, they do not want the public to know that a better test exists, for fear of an avalanche of women abandoning their paps and pelvics in favour of a home test kit.

      • I have heard of these people their nickname is crapita so I doubt they’ll improve it any…

      • I expect my cervical screening opt-out form will be “lost” and I will find myself on the recall database again.

        I have little/no faith in Crapita. They run parts of a service for my employer. There are many, many issues with them. Lost and corrupt data for example.

  17. Exactly mint it’s depressing to think we’ll have to start the opt out process all over again and how private will the rest of our records be?

    • I don’t think our medical records will be private at all. At the moment, if my record is viewed by a HCP, there is a tracking audit. This person risks their job and registration if a record is accessed other than for a clinical review. When my record is held by Crapita, what safeguarding will be in place to stop my medical records being accessed or sold on to anyone with a log-on facility?

    • I’ve. A good working relationship with our local MP I wonder if he could find out more? And would it be worth lobbying the health secretary to complain?

      • You actually communicate with your member of parliament? I didn’t think anybody knew anybody with that! I know in America, most of the time things are very removed- I guess they could always lie to your face, though.

      • In the UK you can write or email your locally elected Member of Parliament, and they will usually reply to you (might take a few weeks). They also hold “surgeries” in local halls where you can just go along and raise an issue with them, but I’ve never done this. They are not obliged to write to you if you don’t live in their area, but I had one reply to me, when I complained about screening. It very much depends on the personality of the MP. Some are very open to the public, and often seen about. Others hide away in London, and have little contact with the public. I’d thought it would be the same in the US?

      • Our MP is pretty good. I’m involved a bit in politics (people’s assembly) and he’s joined us a couple of times, when we’ve all been protesting over same thing and vica versa

  18. The problem os that doctors take a “sexual health history” asking a woman how many sexual partners they have had, what age they first starting having sex, what sexually transmitted diseases they have had, how many pregnancies, abortions, miscarriages, their sexual orientation. Even what “type” of sexual activities they like to do or maybe were forced to do. There is no way that most women would want that just out there. Some of that information could cause marriages to break down or even for some women to be killed. (Honour killing, spousal abuse)

    This is what problem I have with electronic health records and also “exactly” what information does the cervical screening databases keep? From the Ontario cancer screening programmes that is not totally clear from their website.

    I do not care how much effort is put into “tracking” and “disclosure papers signed”. There was just caught a hospital worker who was selling information to Registered Education saving plans for over ten years. She was getting about $1.50 per record and was making over $10,000 per year doing that although she was probably getting more. There have also been rings of thieves working on the elderly recently released from hospital.

    • And in the US, the information collected in medical records contains all sorts of information which can be used for others to gain benefits in your name, and in the for-profit system we’ve had here, if the insurance company doesn’t pay these fraudsters, YOU end up on the hook for it. A stay in a hospital with a corrupt doctor (later convicted of various sorts of fraud and abuse of the disabled), and having her sell my medical records (among many others), ruined my credit rating for the next couple of decades. Now, my medical records – ALL of which I cannot access (!!!!), are completely messed up in regard to what sorts of medical treatment I’ve had, information such as blood type, various diagnoses, and on and on.

  19. Hi guys! It’s taken me ages to find you all, and I have had some bad stuff happen, but am starting to get back to what passes for normal. I was just happy arse-holing around on the net and came across you guys again!
    Elizabeth I am so sorry to hear about your sad news, there is nothing anyone can say to make things better. You are such an awesome and inspirational person, I just want to hug you and make everything better. I am going to catch up on the comments and check out the site and get re-familiar with everything and everyone and slowly start commenting on stuff. To all the guys from the old BlogCritics site – Hi!

  20. Thanks! I’m slowly but surely getting back to normal, and was sooo glad to find you guys again. Hope you have all been well. I can see from some of the comments and links that you are all still as fired up as ever and fighting the good fight :-). I’m still catching up with all the old comments, but it’s so nice to be reading stuff from old friends.

    • I’m glad to hear you’re getting back to normal! You left quite a void when you stopped commenting and I’ve a sense I’m not the only one who was wondering about you and missing you:( Well fill your boots, there are many comments to keep you reading for a while. Close to 7,700 comments if you read all the comments on each post lol! There are new informed women on board, more all the time. So awesome Jacqui!

  21. It makes me really happy knowing that more and more women are educating themselves and checking out sites like this instead of just accepting the whole happy pappy crappy drivel that doctors/medical/screening types put out there. Since I was last commenting we have bought a place out in the mulga for when we either retire/win lotto/have a previously unknown rellie die and leave us their fortune, sold our house in town and are renting a friend’s house. We have 12 acres in the country that we try to get to as often as we can. I had a nasty thing happen to me which caused me to basically shut down and then have to rebuild myself. It took a long time, but I am finally strong and feeling more confident about life and me. I wasn’t up to posting on Blogcritics (or anywhere else really), but am almost back to where I was, and in some ways am better than I was. I realised that someone hurting me did not have to destroy me unless I wanted to let it. That sounds really easy peasy, but in a nutshell a shit thing happened, I wallowed for a while, then got sick of wallowing, and pulled myself up by my bootstraps and have found a better, stronger version of me. So glad to be in the company of other strong, healthy and sassy women!

    • Yes, me too, so happy more women are waking up. Elizabeth continues to work her magic, more women are on board working their magic too, more looking for answers and there have been positive changes. Interesting to hear you bought 12 acres in the country. I’m hoping you come into some funds soon because how wonderful that would be! I like your nutshell story, it gives a good sense of what you’ve been up against and it has a happy ending. Good for you Jacqui. Don’t want to go Pollyanna on you but did I mention I was glad you’re back 🙂

  22. You did and it’s bloody lovely :-). I’m off to go and hunt down some tea for me and hubby and the fur kids, but will check in again later on tonight or the next day or so. Look after yourself toots xxx

      • Thanks Linda, don’t feel bad about being a bit over the top. One of the things I used to say in my angry little rants was that I always wished I had Elizabeth’s calm, reasonable anger. She is amazing and her and the others on here gave me an outlet to vent, compassion when I needed it, and a new faith that women are able to claim ourselves back from all the crap medical misogyny. I love these women, and am so glad there are more great women that have made their way here..

      • Thanks Mint, it’s good to be back and sort of functioning again. 🙂 And to not be among a bunch of bleating self righteous sheep!

      • Jacqui! Well, if this doesn’t make my day. I’m so pleased you found us. I’ve often thought of you over the months, sorry to hear you’ve had some challenges, but delighted to hear you’re feeling better and stronger.
        Thank you for your kind words, yes, my SIL has left a huge hole, but she enjoyed life, I know she’d want us to get on with it. It’s a reminder: I’ve always lived for today, now even more so. I suppose that’s why screening is still such an issue for me, it has a negative and lasting impact on so many women. The quality of our lives should matter…

      • Thanks so much Si. I knew I was getting back to normal when I started getting angry at doctor’s surgeries and at random ads for us stupid women “needing” our paps. FFS. We need food, water, shelter and family and friends. Need is the opposite of what a stupid rape-y duck bill shoved up our bits to then give us a whole new merry-go-roiund of stress and damage. OMVG, I really think I am back 🙂

    • Hello from me too! I joined this website after Elizabeth found me venting my spleen about the UK NHS cervical screening programme in 2014. I’m forever grateful for the information and support I have been offered on this website. It’s wonderful.
      Looking forward to seeing your posts!

      • Thanks! This place is so great. Instead of handing out stupid, lying, damaging women’s “unhealth” info at High School, all young women (and men) should be given a link to this blog (or others like it). Here’s the TRUTH kids, go and investigate, decide what’s best for you, then you and your HooHaa go forth and have a fun, fact filled life. Waaaaaay better than ” You’re a woman, you are stupid, and by the way, you are not able to look after your own bits so we’ll do it for you and TELL you what WE think is best for our system, we mean, your lady bits. Oh, and don’t bother complaining as you will seem like a fool who WANTS to get cancer, and how could you not want what’s best for your body??? OMFG.,

    • I am getting there as far as the ok goes, but better getting there than not even starting yet! Thanks Chrissy.

  24. Hi Jacqui my names Linda. I only came across this site early May but it has transformed me. I’m a bit over the top sometimes because iam still fuming with anger about things that happened to me because of smear tests but i’m just so glad i found the truth. I have put up with horrible things and even a sexual assault in which the nurse checked my clit to see if it still works, all because i had been hoodwinked into believing they were mandatory. I sometimes refer to my past life as if i was a sheep or had been asleep and only just woken up. I turned 50 last year and something changed in me so i went looking for answers. I stand for no more nonsense anymore from doctors. I sometimes refer to the tests as rapes. It can sound a bit dramatic to some but i can’t help it. Thank god for the internet. . Glad you found your way home!

    • Hey Linda, I hit reply to you, but obviously in my rush I hit it for Mint, so I left you a message under her comment.

  26. I have just found out that Capita is in charge of keeping everyones health records. I always thought that information was kept by my GP and only them. I am worried that my health records are now somewhere ‘out there’ that anyone can access them who works for capita for thier own reasons. If I went to a priest I would not like to think all the sins and private info about me had been contracted out to a ‘teaching agecy’ which is what Capita actually is as I used to do supply work for them. We all know that recently a dating agency was hacked and names and adresses of members were published on line.
    Over the past two years I have had a lot of problems with my neighbour and kept going to the doctors in a terrible state. I said some very serious things about what I would like to do to this women. I was in therapy for ages until they started badgering me about having smear tests everytime I went. If this sort of info got into the public domain I might never work as a teacher again. Also what if this womans family found out. Does anyone no for certain whether this is the case that capita keeps all our personal information?

    • https://www.unison.org.uk/news/press-release/2015/08/patient-confidentiality-at-risk-as-millions-of-patient-records-are-handed-over-to-capita-says-unison/

      This is the article from my union sent on 11th August, but Linda, the smear test information has long left our GP surgeries. In 1988 when the smear test programme was set up, contact information about every woman in the UK was taken out of GP surgeries, without any woman knowing and put on the smear test database, known as the Open Exeter database. It still runs the programme now, so Capita will have control of this. At the time it was wrong to take patient info out of the GP surgery, but at the time it was thought to be in women’s best interest. Remember this is 1980’s Britain we are talking about. When the Data Protection Act (1998) came out the screening programme was clearly in flagrant breach of the new law, so in order to keep the screening programme running, they brought in a new law, Section 251, which allows them to opt out of the Data Protection Act if the screening programme would become unviable by having to send consent letters to every women asking whether she would like to be on the programme. In such a scenario, half wouldn’t bother to reply, and the programme wouldn’t be allowed to run.
      Section 251 makes the recommendation that “the means to decline and refuse to take part in the screening programme, should be made available”, and this is where we have a chance to tackle our politicians and NHS directors that this is not happening. The ways and means of opting out of screening is not being presented to women, it is being kept from them, and this is against the UK law.

      • What Section 251 also said was that in cases of an “epidemic” disease, this law would enable the government to access all medical records in this way. Funnily enough, at this time (2004), an epidemiologist at a leading British university, Professor Julian Peto, wrote a famous article: “The cervical cancer epidemic that screening has prevented in the UK”.
        Section 251 appeared the following year, and this article is currently available in a lot of the NHS public information websites.

        Interesting, that developed countries such as France, which do not have organised screening programmes have never experienced an “epidemic” of cervical cancer.
        Funny how they think the “epidemic” should only have happened in Britain.

    • Linda, if you’re worrieid I think you have the right to see your medical records to see what’s in there but you obviously didn’t attack your neighbours

      • And your obviously coping at work so I wouldn’t worry. We all said things in the heat of the moment! And you were obviously stressed at the time x

  27. us medical records not confidential abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/medical-records-confidential-17231593 this article mentions many breeches. they target illinesses in which people need constant care.
    I had to go a dr cause of a bs legal charge ( long story). I was treated badly. I finally did get a dr to write the letter i needed.

    Its yrs late and paid my dues. Now i fear Drs knowing about this and it affecting my care.
    How can a patient feel safe taking to a Dr, when privacy is violated!

    • Quick answer: You can’t. I had my medical records sold by a fraudster-doctor 25 years ago. I’m still shocked where information comes up. Moreover, the information was sold for use by others to access health care, so there’s all sorts of information about “me” which is not true, and has never been true. I’m careful about what I say to them when I go, and for the most part don’t go – except now, with diabetes, I have to at least some. I think I’ve done pretty well to keep the appointments focused on me, now, test results, medications, etc.

    • I believe that. A few months ago I was caused of doctor shopping . when the doctor at a low income clinic went thru his computer and saw were my old doctors had pres ribed klonopin. He acted so sneaky and acted like I was hiding something so dangerous.

  30. Thanks everyone. I was worried but then i remembered i don’t give a stuff anymore. They can print my records in the papers if they want to. What does it matter.

    • They are desperate to hook the young women into screening. What’s all this about starting at 18? I thought Australia was raising the age to 25 next year? If they don’t convince women in their 20’s they never will. This year in the UK our first cohort of 25 year olds are those who have been vaccinated with Gardasil. From what I have been able to find out, the attendance rate has been 54%. Our programme cannot be viable with figures as low as this. They must be very worried…

      • If I understand things correctly, a female in her teens is WAY more impressionable than a female in her twenties or thirties. It seems this is especially about “badges of womanhood” & what a “proper woman does.”

      • Yes I think they are deliberately trying to catch them when they are young. Teenagers are keen to disassociate themselves from children and do things adults do, and paps are one of those things teenage girls are told they should do. They play on the fact that teenagers want to prove themselves in the adult world, and it’s not cool to admit that you’re still a virgin, so going for a pap test is a young woman’s way to say that she’s already got a string of boyfriends, and that she’s desirable.

        I was disappointed to see my kids school in the news lately for including chlamydia testing for all 16 year olds. Some parents are complaining that it’s giving the message to kids that they should be bonking away at this age. I think the kids can refuse, and although they think it’s a gimmick, I’m sure the results are used to investigate very heavily those who test positive.

      • The chlamydia testing for all 16 year olds, and over-investigation of all positives is part of the tactic to scare all teens, and for the false information about such things as chlamydia to be spread. After all, if they find it in a virgin teen, she KNOWS that she didn’t get it from sex, so false information such as you can get it from toilet seats or through your clothes will catch on. Nothing about either false positives or catching it through medical equipment. Combine all of this with the lack of sex education in the US, and you’ve got a whole generation of confused, scared women ripe for the pickings.

      • Hi Ada, the new program will start at age 25 (in 2017) but it’s business as usual until then, but it seems a lot of women have decided to wait for the “5 yearly test” so we’re seeing lots of articles trying to scare women who’ve “delayed” having their 2 yearly pap test.
        “Women who delay having their 2 yearly pap test are risking their life….” etc.
        They clearly want to keep the herd intact until they can be transferred to the new program. So they plan to continue to test very young women (some are teenagers) and seriously over-screen all women until 2017 or whenever they start the new program.
        I also think vested interests want to keep day procedure busy, but we’ll do HPV testing on 25-year-olds so they’ll have plenty of those testing HPV+ and being referred for immediate colposcopy and biopsy anyway. You only have to do basic research to find HPV testing is not a good idea before age 30, but once again, we’ll ignore the research. Our young women will continue to suffer under our new program, but hopefully, they’ll finally leave women younger than 25 alone.

      • That’s a shame it’s 2017. Be prepared for the countless campaigns to get the age lowered again. It still fills newspaper headlines here, that “the NHS only did it to save money and is deliberately putting our young women at risk”. There are multiple campaigns going on by various groups all the time to get the age lowered, and the sad thing is, a lot of misinformed politicians are backing them. Some see it as a sure-fire way to get votes from these misinformed sheep, but then it always was a political issue and not a medical one.

  33. Hi Ada. At least the NHS has woken up to the fact they can not keep raping women for the sake of their programme. The concept of choice should have been there from the beginning along with real info. Only now in 2015 are we beginning to hear we actually have a choice whether the NHS can get into womens vaginas in this repugnant manner against their will. This is down to you and Eliz and a few others who paved the way for change. I feel angry because no one wants to know about us who feel totally betrayed by our doctors. In quiet moments when i think about it i do feel as af i was assaulted but no one wants to know or cares except for you and the women here. I tried to leave comments on this that site about choices but they were blocked. I’ve toned down my wording lately so i don’t know why i keep being blocked. For example some of my comments in the daily mail about walter palmer were accepted but when i tried to leave stuff about the recent smear test story i was blocked.
    I have to accept i will probably never get justice. The world is full of injustices but this attack of womens vaginas in the name of healthcare is just so wrong. I am half way through my book but have stalled. I struggle because i’m not the most academic person you know. I find i am ‘lifting’ some stuff from other sources. To be honest you and Eliz would probably do a better job. Mine is more of a personal rant with a few facts thrown in.

    • Absolutely no offence taken over the cancer thing, in fact, I thought exactly the same things myself, that anyone with a cancer diagnosis had a death sentence and it was just a matter of time before you died. I really had no idea cancer could be cured, and people just got on with their lives afterwards without any follow up at hospitals. Things have changed, the treatment is a lot kinder for many and there are loads of us ex-cancer patients walking around that no-one knows about. I don’t want to sound complacent, but there is cancer and there is cancer, and I quite agree that some of the more benign ones should be named differently. I was looking at a Dutch document the other day and noticed that the Dutch word for cancer is “kanker”. Funny how we only use this for the funny growth you get on trees, and trees with canker still have many decades to grow. They don’t see it as a death sentence so this funny thought cheered me up. If it had a different name people wouldn’t be half as scared of it. I absolutely hate the scaremongering and nonsense put out by the media and charities about cancer. They terrify people to get income and “worshippers”.

      This month is “gynaecological cancer awareness month” in case you hadn’t noticed and the cancer charities are pouring out the usual patronising crap. The Eve Appeal has done a report saying that women are reluctant to report symptoms of gyn cancers, even womb and ovarian cancer because they believe them all to be the result of promiscuity. If you ask me it is the charities themselves who have created this misconception, by suggesting smear tests are the answer to all women’s health issues, exaggerating that the smear test saves lives, and linking every health complaint a woman has to lack of smear tests or the possibility that it may be cervical cancer, which they claim is entirely preventable and therefore entirely the woman’s own fault for getting a problem down there. No wonder, women are reluctant to come forward with abnormal bleeding – it is the charities and media which has made them ashamed.

  34. Hello All,

    I have been reading through almost every post on this website for the last few days. I am a 27 year old woman with a 16 month old baby. I live in Canada.

    I started getting pap smears when I was about 19. I seriously have had approximately 20 of them. I was forced into getting pap smears every time I needed a renewal on my birth control pills as well as other times that they felt ‘it was necessary’. In January of 2009, I began to have abnormal bleeding between periods and every single time after intercourse. I went to the doctors sometime that year (I cannot remember) and was given numerous pap smears and STD tests. All came back normal. In December of 2009, I had enough and demanded to be referred to a GYN. It was there that I met a few different GYN’s. Some talked about LEEP procedure and others didn’t know what to do BEFORE reading my results/looking at my cervix. When my OB (who delivered my baby) walked in, she asked me to get on the table, looked inside and within seconds said I had a cervical erosion/ectropion, fixed it and I have not had any symptoms since. After that, however, I was told to come back for a follow-up and then had another pap, upon another pap. And, a year and a half later when I wanted a renewal for my birth control, I had yet another pap smear. I would like to add that in the midst of my ridiculous number of paps before the age of 25, I never had an abnormal one but they treated me as if I was a whore. I had one family doctor tell me that “if you don’t relax yourself I am going to be forced to rip the speculum out”. She then proceeded to stick her fingers in my ass without telling me and kept moving her fingers around. I was completely humiliated. She then told me that I needed to be tested for PID and I probably had it because I had more than 1 sexual partner so I might as well kiss my fertility goodbye.

    Since sometime in 2012 (I cannot remember exactly when), I have not had a pap smear. Mainly because I got pregnant and here they recommend it every 3 years. I actually booked an appointment to get it done 2 weeks ago but for some reason, it just didn’t sit well with me … so I started researching and reading.

    I found this lovely website and it has completely changed the way I view pap smears. I have been so brainwashed into doing what is necessary – the fear that I will get cc and die and leave my family behind when it could have prevented – you are so reckless!

    I guess I am writing this because I still have the fear in the back of my mind. I have seen all the research, doctors/OBs not getting regular pap smears, etc. etc. and I completely agree. I do not want to get a pap smear before the age of 30 due to all the false positives. My husband and I have been together for 6 years – have been completely faithful – and we have not had any other sexual partners. I had my last pap about 2 years after being together with him and it was normal. My main concern is, and I am hoping someone can give me some research/insight into this, is that if I did have a persistent HPV infection that I got in my early 20s, by the time I am 30 and go for another pap smear (which would be 6 years since my last one), would I not get cervical cancer? I know it takes 10-15-20 years for it to develop but wouldn’t the pap testing help me in this situation? I am not sure if i have HPV or not because I have not been tested but since HPV causes most types of cc, would I not have had abnormal cells on the pap 2 years after being with my last monogamous partner? I am seriously just looking for some help here. I want to be as informed as possible and I want to put my mind at ease. For some reason, I am SO concerned about cervical cancer yet I will NEVER get a mammogram or colonoscopy. I just can’t seem to shake the cervical cancer one. Please help.

    • Hi Alicia. I was horrified to read how you gave been treated. I am so sorry. This wonderful site is a safe place for you to be on. Everyone of us is here for you. More and more women are finding us – some after very horrific treatment.
      You don’t have to subject yourself any more to the degrading repugnant treatment given to women in the name of pap tests. You are free.
      The lie is slowly coming apart. However it is very difficult to stand up to doctors and the system. Read all the posts and arm yourself with a strong argument. If you can access the World Health Org stats on cervical cancer you will find that the disease is in fact so rare you will probably not get it. Read the work of Angela Raffle and Margaret Maccartney you will discover how we have all been beyrayed in the name of money.
      There is also a site in America called ‘womenagainststirrups’ which also has good info.
      I live a pap free life and i am not afraid and neither should you be. The only thing you have to fear is the hassle you will get to have one.
      I am so glad you found us. I feel like jumping up and down just knowing another woman has found her way hear. Please grow strong and be happy. No one can take your knew found freedom away from you. Love and best wishes. Linda X

      • Hi Alicia, my jaw dropped when I read your post, how could doctors think you’d benefit from so many paps?? Anyway welcome to the site, it really is a lifeline!!

    • Hi Alicia
      Welcome to the forum
      Well, for a start I’d be avoiding like the plague the doctors who’ve shamelessly over-screened you, this did nothing more than expose you to risk. I’m amazed you haven’t already lost some of your healthy cervix.
      I’d be finding a new doctor and I’d probably report this example of shocking over-screening. These doctors do a lot of damage, other women would not have been so lucky and may have already faced a colposcopy and biopsy or worse.
      I’m sure the Canadian guidelines don’t recommend a pap test every 6 months or year! (think it’s 3 yearly from age 21)

      America is trying to de-link the pap test and Pill and take the Pill off script, it seems Canada is now lagging behind the States. The Pill has nothing to do with pap testing, this is a tactic used to force women into screening. The law and proper ethical standards say that informed consent is a must with all cancer screening. Coercion negates all consent and should be a very serious matter. (i.e. no Pill UNLESS you have a pap test)

      So 20 pap tests in 5 or 6 years, if my calculations are correct, and all of them normal…sorry, but that’s TOTALLY insane. I really think the Canadian Medical Board need to hear about this shocking example of over-screening.
      Anyway, good thing I’m sitting down…

      Note almost all HPV amounts to nothing, it’s only the rare and persistent high-grade infections that go on to cervical cancer. Countries with evidence based testing don’t screen before age 30, no pap tests or HPV tests. Why? Because it doesn’t help, but exposes young women to the risk of excess biopsies and over-treatment.

      I can understand why you’re focusing on cervical cancer (the lifetime risk of cc is LESS than 1%) when the pap test has been such a feature of your life.
      If you’re worried, test for HPV when you turn 30 and if you’re HPV+ then you have a small chance of benefiting from a 5 yearly pap test. (NOT one every 6 months!)
      Only 5% of women are HPV+ at age 30 so chances are you’ll be HPV- (like most women)

      At age 30, it will be 6 years since you had a pap test, I’m 57 and have never had a pap test. You’re worried about cc, I’m not. I’d urge you to do your reading, once informed I doubt you’ll be worrying about cc either. (although you might find yourself getting angrier and angrier over your 20 pap tests in 5 or 6 years!) Under an evidence-based program you’d be offered a total of 7 pap tests, 5 yearly from 30 to 60.

      Young women are not tested for HPV under an evidence-based program for a good reason, about 40% would test positive, that can mean referral for colposcopy/biopsy etc.
      We know almost ALL of these HPV infections are transient and harmless. In other words, early HPV and pap testing just expose women to risk. You should also, note that not one country in the world has shown a benefit doing pap testing on women under 30, but young women produce LOTS of false positives. HPV+ at age 30 – about 5% of women, these are the women who should be offered a pap test.
      Also, squamous cell carcinoma takes many years to develop, but adenocarcinoma can move faster, this even rarer form of cc is usually the type that strikes young women, but it’s a rare thing! Note that pap testing usually misses adenocarcinoma anyway, these women often get a false negative pap test that can lead to false reassurance and a delay in diagnosis and treatment.
      Dutch and Finnish women (under 30) are simply advised to see a doctor with any persistent and unusual symptoms, not for a pap test, but a proper investigation.
      If I haven’t answered all of your questions, please let me know and if you’d like medical journal references, I’m happy to provide some links.
      HPV Today, Edition 24, is a wealth of information on the new Dutch program, there is also a lot of reliable information on HPV.

    • Hi Alicia, I am so sorry that you have been through all of those awful things, Your doctors sound more like amateur butchers practicing to be doctors.
      i would definitely do one of the HPV home tests, just to put your mind at ease, and research and decide what to do from there. The stupid pap tests never helped me, in fact they almost killed me by giving me a false sense of security. It was only because I listened to my body and demanded that doctors take me seriously and do more testing that my cancer was picked up. I had the rare type of adenocarcinoma, by the time I demanded testing it was at stage four, they couldn’t operate as it had spread to soft tissue, so I had 3 or 4 months in hospital having radiotherapy every day and massive amounts of chemo. I then was told I only had about 6 weeks to live. Obviously I survived, probably out of spite because I am so stubborn. :-). The ongoing side effects from the radiation are horrendous, and I am going though all sorts of grief because of these symptoms. You never hear any of the medical quacks talk about the false negatives, and that is truly deadly. If I had not demanded and insisted that something wasn’t right with my body I would not be here today.
      I hope that the brilliant women on this site can help you both practically, and also to put your mind at ease. It’s really hard to buck the system and do the very opposite of what we have had rammed down our throats all of our lives to be ” well women”. So glad you found this site. All the best.

  35. Alicia what you went through was truly awful x I hope you can heal and triumph. You never have to pap again unless you choose. Please stay with us x

    • Thanks Kat. I will have a look later as I keep on top of what they are putting there. The problem with them updating is that iam writing about my experiences and the info keeps disapearing. They are changing their stories just like stalin during the cold war!
      Hope you are doing ok and the migraines have been sorted. I had one last week and stayed in bed all day. So glad another woman has found this site. Does thd soul good to know more and more of us have freed oursrlves from this Nazi sty’e healthcare. You’re an old hand now!

  37. Read this:
    “I have had quite a few false positives during the last 15 years. In 2000, I had a cone biopsy for CIN II which turned out to be metaplasia. I have had positive paps almost every year since then. I have been checked for the HPV virus (both high and low ) a few times and do not have the HPV virus (at least not the ones that cause cancer). My last pap was supposedly CIN III ( the lab did not do an HPV test as they said that HPV tests were not done if the pap was CIN III) My ob called and said I needed an immediate hysterectomy as the lab at our hospital had gotten a consult with the Mayo Clinic which concurred that the pap was CIN III. Since I already had plans for a trip and this had happened before (CIN with nothing there), I had a colposcopy and my uterus and ovaries checked through an ultrasound about 2 months later. Nothing was seen during the colposcopy (I have had quite a few of these and nothing is ever seen) and the biopsies came back metaplasia. The ultrasound was also negative. I am afraid to have another pap as I do not want them to, probably, misread it again and go through the pain of another colposcopy. Since I am past menopause, the OB had to “pop” open my cervix to get a good look and I bled for several days.I asked for, and received the diagnosis from the lab. After the procedure, I asked for the doctors records of the procedure which stated the reason for the colposcopy was CIN I and not III. I do not want a hysterectomy which, I believe, is not necessary due to the findings of every single biopsy that I have had in the past 15 years.” (taken from the Cancer America website)

    It’s a post from 2013, I couldn’t get into the site to post a comment anyway. So many women go through so much with this testing, yes, I missed a HUGE bullet the day I wandered over to the Medical Library all those years ago.

  38. Thank you all for your responses and encouragement! I have done a lot of reading and research in the last few days and I am extremely disappointed and upset with how I, and millions of other women, have been treated.

    Thank you so much Elizabeth for giving me even more information. I think the best course of action for me, as like you mentioned, would be to wait till I am 30 and then test to see if I am HPV+. If I am HPV-, I will discontinue testing all together.

    You have really set my mind at ease.

    • Another thing to consider is that depending on what province you live in doctors receive incentive payments for screening. In Ontario they get paid bonuses of around $2000 if they reach target numbers of around 80% for CC screening. So one needs to take into consideration that if a doctor is pushing screening it’s not for the patients health but for their own financial benefit.

      • Same here in UK sadly. Conflict of interest or what??
        At least our screenings literature now says it’s a choice. I guess women will still be pressured to screen

    • And Alicia.. Elizabeth never screened, and I’ve not had a pap in 15 years I’m still alive and kicking. I won’t be having mammography either!!

      • Kat, that’s right, 57 and I’ve never had a pap test…and never will, I value my health, life and body and that includes my cervix. The medical obsession with the poor cervix is just bizarre, women are a lot more than a cervix, but you’d never know that with the insane focus in women’s “healthcare”. We can drop like flies from other causes, but this rare cancer sends them into a frenzy.
        The cervix is there for a reason, not to be scraped, burnt, cut/biopsied and damaged over our adult lives. If we wanted to reduce deaths from this always-rare cancer, there are far better ways of going about it. I’m not interested, I concentrate on health and life, but if I was going to obsess and fear something, it would be something FAR more likely than cervical cancer, a cancer that affects fewer than 1% of women.

    • Alicia, I am almost 31 and do not go for pap smears. I remember when I was 18, people I knew were bringing up “I’m sure your going to a gyn at your age.”. I was like why? Why whould I subject myself to such and intrusive exam when I am healthy. I also noticed the way woman were told they “needed” to have gyn check ups but no one could give a good enough evidence based explanation. So that to me seemed sketchy. I also don’t like they way woman are “told” to get birth control from there gynos. It always seemed like a way to control woman and force them to have exams for birth control and paying gynos/ doctors to give permission to use birth control after they were forced to have a pap etc. And that’s rape. Using ceorion to force penatrave exams on woman. How can I trust people that whould do that. I could go on and on. I only use walk-in clinics if I’m sick and even then I hate “when was your last pap”. I have been yelled at for not having a date and for refusing paps , scolded like a child by a nurse. I am discuted by the meadical profession and so many woman are blind to what is going on its sick.

  39. I have recently spoke to some of my girlfriends and have come to find out that they haven’t gone for pap smears either…and it really isn’t because they are aware of what is going on but more because 1) they don’t believe they need to 2) they are currently not sexually active 3) they just don’t care. I think with my generation (mid to late 20s/early 30s), most women just don’t want to be subjected to such invasive tests without a ‘reason’ (i.e, symptoms). Sure, if I started spotting between periods or after intercourse, I’m definitely going to go to a doctor for a DIAGNOSTIC test, not a screening test – and I think that is where a lot of women don’t know the difference.

    When I was going for my cervical erosion problem, I was first told I needed a LEEP. Thank God I had my current OB come in and explain to me that was not necessary and they were simply going to cauterize the cells off. She continued to tell me that I would probably have to come back and get further treatment. My mother called my aunt, whom lots of people like to call a quack because of her interest in herbs and natural healing, and she asked if there was something she could do since I had SUCH a bad reaction to the cauterization (I was in so much pain I fell over while walking out of the office – the nurses smirking and laughing at me). She told me about tea tree oil tampons, sitz baths and something else I cannot remember. So, everything other night, I soaked in a sitz bath and my mother would pour herbs and oils into the bath water and I would use a douching method she recommended. Lo and behold, I went back about 6 months later and the OB said, “wow, you are completely healed and I see no cervical erosion issues at all”. She told me it was simply, ‘good luck’. I beg to differ.

    I also told one of my girlfriends about my new found information and was met with such … hatred?! I was kinda shocked. She told me that without screening, her mother would have been dead (from colon cancer) and that it was absolutely disgusting that I was promoting such lunacy. It is people like me that stop that poor woman from going for her pap smear and thus she will end up riddled with cancer, which, apparently, should be my fault. I tried to show her information – that being in a car accident and dying is MUCH more likely than cervical cancer. I also explained that TESTICULAR cancer is just as common as cervical cancer but you don’t see our husbands in the doctors office getting their balls juggled every year and squished together in an X-ray. She told me I was stupid and the articles I have given her were stupid and lies. I simply told her I didn’t feel comfortable with doctors poking around in my vagina for no reason and she said, it is for your own good.

    • Actually, testicular cancer is much more common than cervical cancer. Heart cancer is approximately as (un)common as CC, and no one bothers with that unless there is good reason to suspect it. Garden-variety heart disease remains the #1 killer of women, yet few women are reminded of this, relatively few have cardio stress tests, or even if a woman goes to the hospital having a heart attack, there are delays in treating her, offering her less aggressive treatment for a heart attack/heart disease – or even (!!!) quizzing her about her paps instead of treating or evaluating for a heart attack.

      Being struck by lightening happens about 1/3 less often than cervical cancer! I’m not losing a lot of sleep about whether or not I’ll be struck by lightning.

      • I had no idea testicular cancer was more common. Thank you for the info! And I agree, I am definitely not freaking out about getting hit by lightning!

    • Hi Alicia. A great number of women gave been brainwashed into thinking a doctor poking about down there is the best and safest thing to do. Its because if the lies and myths perpetuated by the ‘cancer industry.’ The doc who perfected the pap test (i no longer say invented as this is wrong) was cajolled by his colleagues because CC was known to be rare and in decline. What happened is in 1950’s the American Cancer Society re eived a large donation from American government on the understanding they would use it for the treatment of the more ‘unusual’ cancers. The society contacted a manufacturer of speculums who saw a massive profit potential. They began contacting womens magazines and a major promotion to come forward for testing ran aggressively for the next two years. CC was totally unheard of except by a few doctors who may gave seen a case or two during their careers. Most did not. However what happened is that CC with the help of some fantadtic marketing efgorts became the most notorious cancer known to women. Only by rigorously testing of womens vaginas with this incredibly horrible procedure could a woman remain healthy. It became the norm for American women to be tested every year! In England every three. Most doctors thought this was stupid however when targets and payments were introduced they simply didn’t look back and sold us out.
      The old adage that if you look for something you will find it applied and any suspicious looking cell was zapped,cut snd destroyed. Loads of women were very badly harmed.
      At the same time many doctors were screaming about HPV snd that they should be aware of its role in CC, however they were ignored and ridiculed and the pap industry carried on in its path of destruction. Only now are they beginning to talk about HPV. The future for women looks brighter and the Dutch and Scandanavians are making great progress. What with the sudden awareness about the fact we have ‘choices’ whether to screen and the growing acknowledgement of HPV i see an end to to this gross attack on womens vaginas within the next few years. I think Doctor Papancicolou had the very best of intentions for women at heart, what he never foresaw was that the smear test would become the mass raping implement of women the world over. That all adult women would be coerced into having it all their adult lives – women with learning disabilities, older women, virgins, lesbians, – children ! !

      • Linda it is so sad but true. And how many young woman get forced to have this done by there brainwashed mothers esp in America where the well woman exam is pushed starting at a young age.

      • One thing that is very bad about this is the general public believes that women are inherently nasty “down there” just because… There was a guy that was very interested in dating me once and we started to talk about deep subjects. Once, I talked about how I thought that women were mistreated in healthcare. He said “so you have never visited a doctor for female exams?” I said “no, I don’t think they are necessary unless someone has reason to believe that they have cervical cancer or is extremely promiscuous with many partners.” He said “you know, I could never date or marry a woman that has never seen a gyno”. I said “so, even if a woman is a virgin, like myself, you could not be with her until she has seen a gyno?” He said “no, because responsible women see a gyno. Unresponsible women don’t and that’s nasty because she could be diseased down there and I’m not putting my thing into a diseased organ.”

        Needless to say, this was one of our last conversations. I also found it hypocritical because he was open about his past and has had more than 30 partners, but he believes that it is virgin women that are “diseased down there”.

      • Chased4life – I think you are really LUCKY that this guy showed his true colors and his (willful) misunderstanding of the “diseases” that you can get down there. Most of those – probably the ones he (should) be most concerned about, are utterly impossible if you are a virgin! There are a few infections/diseases/malformations that I virgin *could* have, but if you had them, you would have other symptoms which would have gotten you to go to the doctor.

        Thank your lucky stars and think “good riddance” to this hypocritical guy who didn’t mind having “stuck his thing” into 30(!!!) women. Did he think he was immune?

      • It’s always the woman being judged about these things, the age you first had sex, how many partners, being a virgin at 25 (why?) pap tests, STI testing etc. – others seems to think they have the right to judge and control us. It’s incredible that being “responsible” means handing your body over to the medical profession.
        We also see judgement after a woman is raped or a victim of domestic violence. I well remember the days when women went through hell if they reported a rape, the rape exam with a male doctor was another ordeal (some women couldn’t go through with it) and then the brutal treatment they received in court. (it’s still a traumatic experience)

        It’s always the female body being used and our conduct being judged, we see various parties vying for control, it’s all about power, unhealthy attitudes and pure exploitation. (whether that be profits or sexual abuse)

      • I have found another hero to our cause: Dr Luc Bonneux, a Belgian who has criticised mass screening programmes. Our UK NHS is always promoting a decade old article by Peto et al called “The epidemic the NHS cervical screening programme has prevented”. Epidemic indeed. Funny how other countries without an organsied screening programme haven’t had epidemics. Here is Bonneux’s reply to this article, exposing it for the propaganda that it is:

        http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(04)17259-0/abstract:

        Bonneux is also speaking at this conference next year, so I hope it eventually makes it to YouTube. It looks very interesting:
        https://congress.iclam.org/node/73:

      • Love the article.

        I wonder what is defined as high risk? I have been in a faithful monogamous relationship for 6 years. I have had probably 3 clean pap smears (no abnormals) since being with my partner. Before him, I had a few partners but never contracted any STDS and had pap smears. I never had an abnormal pap (although I did, once, have some abnormal cells due to a cervical ectropion – the cells were not abnormal in terms of “cancer” and after cauterization I have not had any problems).

        Would I be considered high risk even though I have only had 1 sexual partner since 21? I plan, as per advice given on this board, to no get any paps till 30. I will then get an HPV test and if I am positive, then perform paps like the Finnish do.

      • Chaste4Life: What?! That guy’s out of his mind! If anything, I’d think it would be harder to be with one that HAS been to them, since it always COULD mean that she’s servile or just mechanical (like she doesn’t value quality of life & is fixated on the “right answer” or a “longevity score”). Either one would be a major concern as far as having kids with her goes, since he’s not necessarily going to be affirmative of bodily autonomy or self-protectiveness (especially from unconventional directions).

        I notice people say things like “It’s not like that- they’re doctors” & I have to wonder: What is it not like? Reality? If there’s any “exemptions from reality” in her head, I’d think theese would be loopholes in her parental radar that other’s could exploit. At the very least, she can’t very well teach her kids about things like that. Dad might not be able to get these things across as well as mom could & dad could always die in a wreack or something- so it’s good to know that the mother is sharp.

        He’s probably lying about the 30 partners, too.

  40. Alicia
    That was a common reaction, but things are changing as more women become informed. Once we were silenced if we posted real information or offered constructive criticism, now our posts usually stay in place. I tend to say in a conversational style or even expressing surprise, “yes, you’d think so, wouldn’t you? BUT…
    I also, mention the way screening is handled (with better results) in Finland and The Netherlands.
    I also tell women now that I’ve never had a pap test, and mammograms and colonoscopies are out too. People need to hear that more often, for too long we were afraid to speak up or we even pretended we were screening too. Our silence, apologies or pretence confirmed the official discourse that all women must or should screen. I’m not playing that game anymore.

    Screening does help some people, but we’re individuals, screening also carries risk, only one person can say the risks are worth it, the individual woman or man. Now that’s accepted for men, not for women, it’s that attitude that needs to change, why do others feel the need to insult us or become hysterical because we Q the sacred screening cow? I find the hysteria is mostly about pap testing, a bit with breast screening, very little with colon screening and less again with prostate screening. (not recommended here anyway, no official program, no targets etc.)

    Consider: we have received the MOST pressure to have pap tests, out of all proportion to the risk of this cancer, we’re constantly reminded of the need for pap testing, many women were and continue to be coerced into screening. We also know lots of women who’ve had “abnormal” smears and treatments, we might even believe they were saved by the pap test. (they might too)

    It’s called the “popularity paradox”…if we see a lot of women being treated for something picked up by a screening test, we assume this cancer must be a real threat, that lots of women are being saved, we don’t tend to think, this must be a lousy screening test, lots of false positives, how can screening for a rare cancer (0.65%) lead to 77% of women being led in for a colposcopy and biopsy? Of course, most women don’t have those numbers, but it occurred to me at the start, if cc is such a threat, why don’t I know a single woman who had cervical cancer prior to pap testing? Why don’t I know of a case in my wider circle, my aunt’s or grandmother’s friends? How can something that didn’t seem to affect many women at all suddenly become such a problem with so many women now being saved by this test, being treated for cervical cancer?
    It doesn’t add up because it’s not true, almost all of these women are being over-treated. The TEST itself is causing the problem, not the disease. (particularly when women are screened early and/or too often or inappropriately i.e. during pregnancy, shortly after giving birth etc.)
    CC was always rare in the developed world and remains so…even rarer now is an intact cervix, thanks to these programs!

    The lack of real information/misinformation/screening “stories”, lots of so-called “survivors” = high belief in the pap test and near hysteria if we Q it, BUT that’s finally changing…

    Sometimes I just say to women, “do what you think is right for you, but please, do some reading first”. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink, sadly, some women are unreachable.
    Of course, if women make an informed decision TO screen, fine, that’s their business, but someone agreeing to annual testing or testing at 18 is IMO, motivated by fear and/or misinformation or being coerced, the evidence is clear: both of these actions simply expose you to risk.
    I’ve always felt, if we know something is harmful or unnecessary, it should not be promoted, that’s why I find it scandalous that women here are still being pressured to have 2 yearly pap tests from age 18 (or even earlier) KNOWING this simply means risk and unnecessary day procedure for many of them, that’s NOT medical care.

    • So very true! Elizabeth, I just have another question. I think I read it somewhere before but I just want to clarify. When you say 0.65% chance of developing cc…does that mean that an unscreened woman (who has never had pap smears) has a 0.65% chance of developing cervical cancer during her lifetime?

      • What difference would it make if she were screened or unscreened? I notice that information that’s given out seems to imply that there’s some kind of cancer penalty for not getting these things done.

        I wonder if the chances of surgical complications go up with these tests?

      • Alex – I was unsure if the 0.65% statistic was for a screened or unscreened woman. Just trying to clarify to get my own facts straight. But, I do agree. There is this notion out there if you don’t screen for things, there is a cancer penalty.

      • http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/28/women-informed-consent-and-cervical-screening

        I find Table 1 in this link gives a very clear indication of the very small risk involved in not screening. It is based on UK NHS results but I’m sure the results across the US would be similar.
        Basically, by age 25 there is a risk of 1 in every 10,000 dying if the woman is unscreened rising to 7 in every 10,000 by the time the woman is 55. These figures were from 2000 and based on women not screening at all, and before the days of HPV testing. Nowadays, a non-screening woman could safely test herself with an HPV home test kit after age 30 and if negative could confidently go without pap screening since HPV is essential for the development of cervical cancer.

      • Thanks, Ada, I think the chart put together by Rouse puts the risk in perspective, not something they’d ever show women!
        Alicia, you’re not an unscreened woman, you’ve been seriously over-screened – you’ve already had 20 pap tests and you’re still under 30. Under an evidence-based program you’d only get to that number over three lifetimes 7×3 = 21
        If you were Dutch or Finnish you’d be offered your first pap test or HPV test at age 30.

        Ada’s right, the risk statistics are irrelevant now that we understand the significance of HPV. HPV- and you can forget about pap testing; if a woman is worried about a new HPV infection, she can always follow something like the new Dutch program

        https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2003/178/12/prevention-cervical-cancer – another reference.
        “The lifetime risk of a woman being diagnosed with cervical cancer in a developed country like Australia, in the absence of any screening, has been estimated as 1.58%.9 By contrast, the lifetime risk of a woman having a colposcopy in Australia is 76.8%.10 These figures suggest significant over investigation, with most investigated abnormalities having a very low probability of becoming malignant.”
        Ref: IARC Working Group on Evaluation of Cervical Cancer Screening Programmes. Screening for squamous cervical cancer: duration of low risk after negative results of cervical cytology and its implication for screening policies. BMJ 1986; 293: 659-664.

        I always felt that estimate was on the high side. There is also a graph annexed to the article, it shows cervical cancer in steady decline for many years “before” our formal screening program even started. I certainly believe it was a disease on the way down before screening started and that other factors are contributing to the decline – more hysterectomies, better hygiene and standard of living, better condoms etc.
        All a bit academic now though…Q: are you aged 30 to 60 and want to screen?
        Are you HPV- or HPV+…end of screening story.

      • There is a misunderstanding out there that screening is prevention for cancer. People assume that if a woman isn’t getting pap smears that’s she’s going to get CC. Screening is not prevention. Screening is to find out if the person has a specific cancer. Living a healthy lifestyle is prevention. Another big myth is that catching a cancer early means that it can be treated and cured. In reality catching a cancer early does not mean that it can be cured and the person will live just as catching a cancer late does not mean it isn’t treatable and the person will die. Screening often catches the small cancers that a person will die with not of. The aggressive cancers that kill often show up between screening. To fully prevent and treat cancers screening would have to be done every day.

  41. So very true! Elizabeth, I just have another question. I think I read it somewhere before but I just want to clarify. When you say 0.65% chance of developing cc…does that mean that an unscreened woman (who has never had pap smears) has a 0.65% chance of developing cervical cancer during her lifetime?

    • Statistics are based in the “average” woman who really does not exist. A person’s individual risk of cancer can vary greatly depending upon many factors. The problem with the medical model of cervical cancer screening is that all the protocols are based on the “average” woman.

      Ms “average” woman first had sex in her late teens has no more than 4 heterosexual partners in her lifetime. She settled down to marriage in her mid-20’s and has 1.3 children. She used birth control pills for more than 5 years. Around 43 she decides she is not going to have any more children and is bullied into a hysterectomy because that will prevent any gynaecological cancers. (Maybe she will have a preventative mastectomy as well). This Ms “average” no doubt has had numerous paps, colposcopy and few LEEP as well. Is her risk of cervical cancer the same as yours?

      Compare Ms “average” to Madame X. She was abused as a child and her occupation is sex worker. She has numerous sexual partners per week. She is HIV positive. Because her immune system is depressed she is very likely to develop cancers. Is her risk of cervical cancer the same as yours?

      Compare Ms “average” to Miss Y. Miss Y is a conservative quiet person. She never dated and remained a virgin until her marriage at age 40. During the first year if her marriage she has a pap test. She is HPV positive and has CIN II. Her doctor recommends her to have a hysterectomy because she is “too old” to have children and she “might get cancer” because she is over 35 and HPV positive. I doubt Miss Y is likely to develop cervical cancer just because she never had sex and did not have enough time to clear a HPV infection she might have got from her new husband. But clearly her risk is lower than Madame X or Ms “average” yet the doctor will follow the same treatment protocols for all.

      • and they will even follow those same ridiculous protocols for Miss Z! Miss Z was not sexually active until 20 when she fell in love with her wonderful man who was also a virgin- she is VERY low risk of cc and not a possible HPV carrier. Miss Z goes to the Dr at 21 for a bad case of strep throat and he insists on doing a pelvic exam/pap as she has never had one. Later she learns she had an “abnormal” result. Her Dr immediately sends her off for a colpo. She endures a painful biopsy only to learn “it was nothing”

        guess who miss Z is? ME! of course I’ve never dealt with the pap/VE/colpo mess because I saw it for what it is- total bullsh*t! 2 virgins cannot give each other ANY STIs including HPV which causes appr 95% of cc and yet every single dr out there would treat me the same as a woman w multiple partners and put me thru all that “just to be sure”. (raises middle finger) I will NOT be having a pap….ever!!

  42. If anyone from Australia reads this, do you know if or how it is possible to get abdominal ultrasound in Australia without a referral from GP?

    It is bordering ridiculous in our “free” country with “one the best in the world” medical system that we cannot do any basic, absolutely harmless tests without first wasting time and money on an appointment with a general practitioner, which envitably leads to an interrogation about Pap smears. I can’t bear a thought of going to any GP and hearing the words “when was your last Pap smear?”. I just want to get my ultrasound image and the report, and then contact a trusted doctor from a decent country to discuss the findings.

    • Alice, the noose tightens a bit more every day. The system is currently setting up a central register for cervical and colon cancer screening (no mention of breast screening, perhaps, they already have a “central” register) This is for our convenience, so we don’t forget about our screening, so thoughtful…
      Good luck, but think you’ll need a referral, the Delphi Screener is now only available through your GP, so the Govt has closed off the option of ordering the test online and cutting them out. This is clearly a response to the increasing number of women choosing to self-test for HPV and bypassing their precious program.
      “Your General Practitioner has access to the Delphi Screener and can order one from us on your behalf. Ask your doctor today to order a screener for you.”
      It’s all about controlling the herd…

      • Of course, I doubt many GPs will mention HPV self-testing to their patients, this is only for women who already know about it. A workmate was recently told by her GP that self-testing is unreliable and that’s why they recommend the speculum exam. I’m sure women will hear all sorts of reasons why the current (and new) program is in their best interests when it’s actually in the best interests of others.

      • Its disgusting. I didn’t know about the Delphi only being available through GP’s. They will do anything to keep women under and constantly submitting to this outrageous exam. It is nothing more than the mass rape of women the world over. What the hell is wrong with these people. In 2015 It should be an accepted fact that that even after being given the full facts about CC if you want to smear test you can do your own.
        I can not believe I have freed myself from this terrible treatment.

  43. If women feel they really want a speculum exam they CAN even do that themselves. They can purchase speculum online or from medical supply businesses and look at their own cervixes as well as any doctor. In fact they might do a better job because they can look up what a normal or diseased cervix looks like online from numerous sources and also look after applying vinegar. This is called visual inspection with acetic acid and is done in many low resource countries such as Indian by nominally trained women (some are nurses but many are not). Most doctors do not bother really looking at the cervix while doing a pap test and almost none use vinegar.

    As for doctors needing to check for vaginal infections and prolapse etc. most women know they have these conditions becuse they have symptoms and could ask their doctors about them. STI can be checked for by urine tests.

    Most self HPV tests do not use a speculum and there is no reason for it because the cervix does not have to be looked at to get a sample. There is even a HPV test that uses a urine sample. i wonder how that company is doing? Has anyone checked the Trovagene website lately?

  44. Hi Gang

    This morning I have written to Bart’s Womens Health Centre.

    This new place which opened in early August aims to allow women who have been assaulted to have smears taken in a nice relaxed aptmosphere. There is music playing, massages, chats and coffee to supposedly put the woman at ease.

    They quote the usual lie saying that 3000 women a year get CC in the UK. As I have said before the screening Nazis were qoting that figure 20 years ago. So basically after two decades of smear testing the rates have stayed the same?

    Anyway, they are apparently very concerned that this group of women who have suffered attacks are particularly at risk of CC but the most reluctant to come forward. They say they have exceptional well trained staff which will help put the women at ease.

    However, I feel they are still traumatising women. The WHO tell us that CC is very rare. It seems to be more prevelent in Africa. So why the insistance on keep putting these women through this unecesary procedure?

    I realize it is hard to change the mindset of these truly disgusting people. If they are so concerned about women but insist on pressurizing them to screen wouldn’t it be kinder to hand out self testing kits. Plus why when all the evidence points to a new HPV urine test being able to show if they are HpV + or – are they not offering this service.

    I challenged them to really show they had women’s interests at heart and make the changes. If they didn’t it would show they were nothing more than a self serving publicity seekers.
    I don’t supoose they will reply.

    • Linda, I got hold of a medical journal (Nursing Times, I think) at work and there was an article on this project. The young woman who started this off may have had the best intentions but it was quite obvious she didn’t know a damned thing about the pap test… there was so much crap spouted in the article it made me sick to read it.
      Oh, the irony – *helping* survivors of sexual abuse by abusing them all over again.

    • That’s bizarre. Doing all would only exasperate a situation like that. Think about it: A woman got attacked & now there’s someone rubbing her shoulders trying to stick something in her. Never mind all the risks, inaccuracies, alternatives, conflicts of interest, etc… . Taking no time to actually inform someone of risk or utility, but making them coffee & giving them a massage?

      I suppose this will be the scene of a lot of problems- from pushy lesbians trying to find a loophole (sorry, pun not intended) to guys acting like they don’t get why a woman would be uncomfortable with them around (or rubbing their shoulders, their back, their ass, etc…). Besides this being something that can fuck up her ability to have children, possibly driving her to get surgery for no reason, etc… .

      I still don’t get why people (at the very least in America) don’t ever say that something is a problem when it “goes against the grain.” It’s like a social faux paus to have an issue with anything that’s a means to an end. Even if it’s just theoretically a means to an end, people are like a mix of a salesman & a lawyer. If you don’t DO something that might be useful, THAT is like a cardinal sin to them.

    • Numbers are always used in an attempt to scare people into screening. Unfortunately no one ever stops to think about those numbers and what they mean. In the UK the population of women is 32 million and out of those 3000 will get CC. It’s very unfortunate for those 3000 women but the chance of a woman getting CC is very rare. I also wonder what percentage of those CC cases are adenocarcinoma which the pap doesn’t pick up. The fact is there are greater threats to a woman’s health such heart disease and other cancers such as lung cancer.

  45. This is about the program, not women.
    If they really cared about these women, as you’ve mentioned Linda, they’d offer them HPV self-testing, simple as that. No compassion, even for this group of women. It’s the same with older women who can’t tolerate the speculum exam, they’re offered oestrogen to use for a few weeks before the test, some are even sedated, when they could easily and reliably self test.
    They’re desperate to get and keep women in the program, to reach their target and make it look like it’s doing great things, they’re protecting jobs, profits etc.

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  47. http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2015/09/the-human-cost-of-breast-cancer-screening.html
    It’s great that we’re seeing more and more articles on over-diagnosis and overtreatment.
    We have a new push here from Breast Screen and others, obviously the number of women screening is continuing to fall and they’re in a panic. Of course, the old tactics don’t work on informed women.
    We have a celebrity (Tracey Spicer) agreeing to an on-air CBE and mammogram, a bit puzzling and pointless when CBEs have not been recommended here in many years. Naturally, mammograms are being pushed as well…it’s starting to look like a sinking ship with the rats dashing about trying to plug up the holes and deny there is anything wrong.
    Of course, Tracey Spicer is doing what she thinks is right, trying to get the message out.
    Thanks, but not interested, I prefer to rely on the evidence, not spin, high emotion, screening stories, fear etc.

    • Thanks for this article. It is a good one, and written for the general public to easily understand, if they would take their blinkers off for a few minutes. It makes me cringe these expressions like “the Angelina effect”. If she’d been middle-aged and ugly, would there still be an effect to make women queue up for their mastectomies? Such patronising, mis-informing fodder. As you have said before, we don’t see men being talked down to for their health in the media.
      By the way, there will be a meeting on 19th November in the UK to finalise the HPV primary testing roll-out for cervical cancer screening. There has been an almost total news blackout on the future of the programme, because they know that informing women of any changes will mean many will prefer to wait until a better test comes out. As we’ve been told the NHS is practically bankrupt, and is barely able to survive the next 2 years, I’m just wondering what the future holds for our £175,000,000 programme?

  48. This is a quote from the BBC in response to a new bowel screening trial.

    “Dr Julie Sharp, head of health and patient information at Cancer Research UK, said the screening programme had potential to prevent bowel cancer and detect it early, but it was always a personal choice.
    “You don’t need to have symptoms for this test to be effective, but people can choose whether or not to have it and it’s important that they receive clear information so they can decide what’s right for them.”

    I find it interesting that “people can choose whether or not to have it” and “they receive clear information so they can decide what’s right”.

    Where is this information with regard to cervical or breast screening?

    The cynical part of me thinks that this information is available for bowel screening because men will be offered this test. Women don’t get a choice. We are told we SHOULD be screened.

    • And, of course, not doing so is a SHOULD NOT. Why doesn’t anyone bring that up in class? I’d imagine it would be quite useful if a girl were to bring this up in middle school or high school (whenever it comes up). I remember a complete omission of discretion when this was being discussed in school.

      It’s interesting that this was about 10-15 years ago, but now they teach Islam in the public schools & that’s VERY supportive of women- in much the same way as ropes support someone that’s tied to the wall.

    • http://intl-jrs.sagepub.com/content/108/9/338.full.pdf+html

      So true, Mint. The bowel screening programme was brought out much later than the other two, and, as you say, because it is for men, their attitude is completely different – can’t imagine all those high court judges being told they’ve got to have it and they are silly if they don’t, but It’s OK for them to treat women like this. The smear tests and mammograms are a product of the 1980’s and have no place in our lives today. The programmes were illegal even then, and many women felt it wasn’t acceptable, but the information was barely available to stop it.

      I have posted a link this time to Michael Baum’s newly released article condemning the NHS breast screening programme above. It should be free to read.

    • Agreed, Mint. Men have always been treated with far more respect than women when it comes to screening, and many guys think they getting a bad deal when it comes to healthcare because women get all the attention!
      I never listen to what charities have to say any more, you can’t ever trust them to give out honest information… they thrive on *survivors* and screening is a great way to provide a steady stream of devotees to their cause.
      I snorted in derision when I saw the CRUK ad on tv, where they were spouted the line ‘as many people now survive cancer as die from it’, I’m guessing they count all the pseudo cancers picked up by screening. And how many people die from cancer treatments rather than the actual disease, I wonder?
      By the way, I notice in the BBC article that this new trial is using an ‘invasive’ method. Funny that… I though that a medically invasive procedure is one where they have to cut you open to get to your innards. So here we have a procedure where they shove a tube up your butt and it’s classed as ‘invasive’, yet shoving a speculum into a woman’s sexual parts is ‘non-invasive’?
      Oh, I forgot, silly me… the vagina is designed for penetration so any woman who doesn’t want a penetrative exam is just being silly… whereas having a tube shoved up your arse is not the *norm* for most people are is therefore an *invasive* procedure.

  49. yknow its funny…eric and I work for Barclaycard and we took a 2 hour training today all about fair credit/lending acts and practices and how important it is to not be deceptive and misleading and give informed consent at every turn. TWO HOURS. and this is just for credit cards. it’s just money. Our bodies are far more valuable and precious than any amount of money. Why is it that no one cares about informed consent then? Drs hardly even spend 2 minutes informing women about paps/pelvic exams- if they even do at all!!

    • I think they DO care- negatively. It’s an important subject to disregard, I guess.

      Also, patient consent (of any form, informed or not) is something that is outside of the doctor’s discretion- as such, they are against it. See, affirming importance of patient consent comes off to them like their own consent isn’t important.

      Another point is that they figure that they’re smarter (at the very least, about the body) & this sense of superiority depends on disregarding the patient’s discretion. Like a junky clutching at a needle, they’ll try their hardest to pilot the patient. This isn’t a DEFINITE thing, but there’s a bit of an unsung probability with this sort of thing.

      I don’t get how someone presumes that there is a high potential for a husband or boyfriend to be antagonistic & controlling, but not someone in a situation like the one medical personnel tend to be in.

      Look at something:
      They don’t often get seen as attackers because a lot of people have a bit of a cultural blindspot when it comes to medical attacks or iatrogenic detriment, they tend to have more pull over the medical setting & resources, the people that come in there are usually in a debilitated state or at least believe that they are, there might be cops around ready to jump in whatever direction they say, and they have plenty of shielding from law suits simply by there being lawyers to get the hospital out of hot water. Even in private practice, it seems that doctors don’t generally have to worry too much about getting sued because their insurance covers them pretty well- like they don’t even HEAR about it, necessarily. If it’s not something huge like a million-dollar lawsuit, they might not even get wind of it.

      Add to that the fact that, at least in this country, the public tends to assume that everyone that goes after them in court is just looking to get a payout. So a populace that thinks anyone that speaks out against an attack is just “crying wolf” is another problem. Of course, they also presume that ll someone has to do to stop an action that they don’t want done to them is to simply say “no.” I guess they never had someone attack them or else they just don’t want to believe that something they’d like to be a safe environment could become a hostile one instead.

      Then there’s the tendency to try to be more in someone else’s place by approving of them. It doesn’t really make sense as a concept, just like how someone’s not going to become a better shot by applauding a soldier- but it’s a frequent thing. They’ll nearly worship celebrities, too. How is this going to play out in a court case? It’s hard to say, isn’t it?

  50. One other thing comes to mind: Apparently, narcissists are not few & far in between in these professions. That poses quite a few issues, not least of all being too arrogant to catch their own mistakes.

    There’s also general menace. I’m remembering a case where a guy was poisoning the patients so he could bring them back & look like the hero- this was not only at the hospital I was born in, but it was right next to the maternity wing. There’s plenty of opportunity for “pissing matches” with co-workers or patients, trying to show off by doing something dangerous, and holding to old methods that don’t work because it’s THEIR style of doing things. It’s entirely possible that they stick to non-viable methods of doing something because they feel there’s no need to adjust their way of doing things (after all, the way they do things is best because THEY are the best & thus nothing in THEIR body of information could be of low quality- they, as a dynamic quantity, are good enough).

    Doesn’t have to be that complicated, though. It could always just be attacking for its own sake.

  51. Someone showed me something on Youtube today that was incredibly confronting, I’m not going to link it. It happened in Brazil, a young female policewoman is suspected of taking some money, her pants and underwear are forcibly removed by her male colleagues while other male policemen look on, she’s completely exposed. This happened in a police station so these men would have been her workmates. I think there might have been one female policeman involved as well.
    She did have money concealed in her underwear, but you have to wonder about a police force that thinks that’s an appropriate way to conduct a body search.

    I’ve heard some concerning things about Argentina and Brazil and they way they treat their women, for example:
    “Over the past few decades, most preventive campaigns for the early detection of cervical cancer in Argentina and Brazil have relied on the use of colposcopies and Pap tests as ‘routine procedures,’
    and this
    “The education department of Sao Paulo state requires female prospective teachers to undergo a pap smear to prove they are free of a variety of cancers, or to present a doctor’s statement verifying they have not been sexually active.
    Until recently, it also required women to have a colposcopy, a type of visual examination used to detect disease.”
    “The public management department for Sao Paulo said all tests ordered follow the standards and recommendation of the country’s health ministry for public servants as well as state law.
    In a statement, it also said other states and federal agencies had similar requirements.”
    – See more at: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/sthamerica/2014/08/09/women-rally-in-brazil-over-pap-smear-testing.html#sthash.qIKs7AgS.dpuf

    Just shocking…it must be a frightening place to be a woman.

    • Brazil is like that with law enforcement. Actually, they have a situation called “revista vexatoria” where they do shit to both women & kids. There’s lots of variations, but imposed nudity is included & this is in front of the kids as well as directed AT the kids. If you look up “Brazil strip searches” you’ll hit what I was talking about. Apparently, torture is something that’s entrenched in law enforcement from olden times & this is just something they do when left to their own devices.

  52. I actually believe that, although we are coerced into exams for the men’s sake, it is also partly some women’s fault (as far as healthcare workers). I think that many of these female healthcare workers fell for the lines about going to a gyno at 14, the idea that all women have to lose their virginities at 18 or something is “wrong” with them, etc. Nevertheless, this overlooks the fact that women by nature are modest until they are abused or otherwise emotionally damaged. I think these women go on to finally get married (although they innately do not feel that it is special when everyone else has already seen ‘everything’ before the husband), have several children (while exposed more than necessary), have their vaginas ripped apart more with unnecessary post-birth exams that use a speculum three times as wide as their already sore female parts, and they endure all of this for years. When these female healthcare workers with their damaged vaginas meet young virginal women that are educated and refusing unnecessary female exams, I think they become jealous that they were not informed and that they are already “damaged” while these young women have a chance a normal relationships and normal s_x lives the way that it was meant to be before these silly exams were invented. Because of this, they yell, manipulate, tell us we’re being irresponsible, and lie all to get us naked and on that table being ripped apart when what they really need is psychological help for their issues of being violated in the past through the female healthcare system and societies expectations.

    • I agree chaste…I remember when I was just shy of 18 and taking abx for strep I developed an infection and when I refused to let the dr (middle aged, male, too eager for comfort) take a look the younger female nurse tried to get me to do it by saying “this is something all women do. You’ll have to do it at some point” and “Don’t worry. we won’t tell your parents you’re not a virgin.” I WAS a virgin! and I didn’t want the first time anyone touched me there to be some creepy dr shoving his hands and tools inside. I wanted it to be someone who loved me and cared about me. 2 1/2 years later I met my beloved eric and I truly feel that if I had allowed that to happen it would have felt different. I don’t think it would’ve been as wonderful and special.

      Even now people still try to convince me that it’s “responsible” and “Something all women do.” well most women don’t have a monogamous relationship with another former virgin. after doing some basic research and finding out appr 95% of cc is from HPV I did some math and calculated my odds of getting cc. it was 1 in about half a million. turns out you and I have the same chances of getting cc (or any STDs for that matter) and people call us crazy, stupid and irresponsible for not running off to the gyno so they can damage our bodies and minds on some crazy witch hunt for things that aren’t there. I pity the women who know nothing more than the lies theyve been told. We know better, don’t we dear 😉

      • Good for you, Emily! I’m glad you stuck by your guns, and did not allow something contrary to your alignment occur.

        Yes, there is a TINY probability of getting CC without HPV or intercourse. What they don’t tell you is that those cancers are the ones that PAP just plain cannot pick up. It wouldn’t do you any good in even that very rare case of CC.

        Moreover, as unsterile and outright dirty as most medical equipment is, unsanitary conditions for washing and (not) sterilizing between patients, and risks from the glove box and the improper conditions that gloves are used, there was some probability of getting nearly any STD AT that appointment. The problem would be to prove that it happened *there* and that you had not had a sexual encounter of some type outside the office.

  53. What about men they can get/ spread disease too. Why is it differen? I have two uncels that had prostate cancer and one uncle who had a infection in his testecols. Why is it defrent for men?

  54. This is for Elizabeth. Hi Elizabeth.
    I read today that they are going to have a look at all the Medicare payments and want to stop paying for unnecessary tests and procedures. Of course the doctors are going to fight this tooth and nail. Sussan Ley said “She wants to hear from health professionals and patients about any services, tests or procedures they have come across in the Medicare system that are unnecessary or unsafe.”
    I intend to email her. If you can too, so I don’t sound like a lone nutter, that would be great.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/turnbull-government-announces-medicare-services-review-20150927-gjvzrx.html

    • Thanks, Mary, I’ve written to her before, but will do so again, so your letter will hopefully mean I’m not the lone nutter! I see “Four Corners” are looking at the billions wasted doing unnecessary tests and procedures too, it’s being aired tonight. They mention PSA testing but doubt they’ll have the guts to tackle pap testing/HPV testing or mammograms.
      Breast screening is highly controversial, we definitely should not be extending the program.
      Our new cervical screening program is excessive too, HPV testing at age 25 is a disaster and will catch a lot of young women, most likely sent for immediate colposcopy/biopsy and we’ll test far too often…AGAIN.
      It’s not rocket science, basic research confirms these points, there is no doubt in my mind the Govt has left these programs to vested interests. The many years of harmful excess with our cervical screening program and the long delay making any changes is mostly about vested interests jockeying for position, it has little to do with the evidence and what’s best for women.
      Hope all goes well with your studies too.
      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-28/tests-treatments-for-common-ailments-costing-billions-4-corners/6799378

      • Elizabeth, you are so prompt and diligent! I was just about to post this link.
        “Many of us are receiving tests or treatments we don’t need, and some of these are harmful.”
        How long did it take them to figure it out?! People like you have been writing about it for years. Now it’s in the “news”.

      • That 4 Corners program discussed the research, which found that at least half of medical tests, procedures, prescribed medications and treatments are at least useless, and often harmful. They reiterated quite boldly that patients should always question every test or procedure their doctors recommends or sends them to. The 4 Corners’ advice was to always ask the doctors: what’s the evidence that this test/program/procedure/treatment/surgery is safe and beneficial?

        Now, what’s the evidence that pap tests and cervical screening program is safe and beneficial? None! There has never been a single controlled randomised trial that proved pap smears are safe, reliable and do more good than harm.

        Pap tests were invented nearly a century ago, because the science, technology and medicine didn’t know any better back then. Most tests and procedures of that age have been since retired or even banned. Yet pap smears survived, despite causing massive harm to women all over the world. Pap smears are cheap, easy for doctors to perform, they are a good excuse for the medical system to keep women under surveillance, and they lead to all sorts of money-making activities. A woman is trapped into a whirlpool of regular screening, colposcopies, treatments, follow ups, more screening, subsequent complications, surgeries, miscarriages, more treatments and more smears…

        4Corners didn’t dear to even mention the female screening. The same 4 Corners were brave enough to investigate massive police corruption back in 70s, and they made a huge difference for this country’s police accountability and trust. However, vested medical interests are too strong in Australia. Apparently, even stronger than criminal corruption and drug trafficking, because even 4 Corners were afraid to tackle it. Female health “care” is too political and too lucrative.

      • I too have written to Four Corners about how a group of rogue doctors deliberately fabricated I had cancer and forced me into a totally unnecessary radical hysterectomy at teaching hospital Monash Medical Centre. I did not learn until after I was butchered that this surgical racket has been rampant for well over a hundred years, but the whole corrupt system covers ups these insidious surgical mutilations against women here in Australia.. They are not interested in doing my story, or any stories told by patients who have been tricked or harmed following unnecessary surgeries they didn’t want or need in the first place…

    • Did the Australians on this site watch ABCs “4 Corners” program on Monday night? Unnecessary tests and surgeries are costing us LOTS of money. You don’t say…
      There’s been a bit in the papers too, and as expected, the AMA have come out swinging, they refuse to work with anyone, we get outrage and obstruction, no co-operation at all, they refuse to work with midwives, pharmacists and anyone else they view as a threat to their market and profits. Whatever happened to proper care for patients? Ethical standards? First do no harm?

      I’ve sent something off to Sussan Ley, but the Review Panel doesn’t fill me with hope, some serious vested interests there. I’m sure they won’t touch women’s cancer screening, except perhaps, no cover for the routine CA125 blood test.

      If they want to save money, easy, take the Pill off script for a start, don’t extend the breast screening program, change the new cervical screening program to no HPV testing before 30 and then only 5 tests in total and offer HPV self-testing. I know they probably fear a real backlash if they exclude women under 30, some may ask why they’ve been having 2 yearly pap tests since they were 16 or so, good Q, and of course, all the young “survivors”. “I’d be dead if I didn’t have that pap test at 17!”…

      We kept testing (and over-screening) young women for a few reasons, one reason was to complete some research on Gardasil – they were comparing pap test records with vaccination records, of course, women did not consent to this research. So we carried on screening and over-screening knowing we’d harm a lot of young women, but the research came first and the great profits generated by all the false positive results. (that will continue with about 40% of those aged 25 to 29 testing HPV+)

      We also need to make sure women have access to balanced information on breast screening, then instead of focusing on the target, we could start winding it down, we know when women understand the risks and actual benefit, fewer want to screen.

      It still surprises me though the responses I get to my comments on many Australian sites, it says to me many women here have no idea there is a dark side to screening. UK & American women seem to have a better understanding, perhaps, that’s because our doctors and others have been silent for decades and this is the first time many of our women are hearing about over-screening, false positives and over-diagnosis/over-treatment.
      http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2015/09/28/4318883.htm

      • Elizabeth, it’s too true, and too sad. But for as long as we have a bunch of criminal bureaucrats and paternalistic dinosaurs under the name of Australian Medical Association (AMA) ruling healthcare in this country, there will never be any proper care for patients, ethical standards, or “first do no harm”.

        And I’m not afraid using the word criminal, because anyone who knowingly causes harm by their actions to another person would be trialled in a criminal court in Australia. Anyone, except medical bureaucrats.

      • http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-08-12/michael-mosley-reveals-why-health-tests-arent-always-good-for-us

        I think it’s one huge public relations exercise to prepare the public for the “shocking” news that screening tests aren’t all they are cracked up to be. They are preparing them for the terrible news that all these tests are rubbish. The brainwashed and duped need to be let down slowly, or they’ll be a revolt. They want the sheeple to think “Hmm, maybe if that test doesn’t work….what about the others?”. I think they are trying to get the penny to drop in their own minds.

        In the Michael Mosley BBC programme he made a passing mention of cervical screening, but other than that, this was one test he conspicuously didn’t cover. Thank goodness Iona Heath was there to rip the breast screening programme to pieces, which was the best demolition job of mammography that has ever been aired to date, and there was no way she was getting up on the couch for the obligatory on-screen pap test favoured by the young bimbo quacks who’ll do anything to boost their TV careers!

    • Completely avoidable damage, you don’t perform pap testing on 21 year old women to start with, “abnormal” results (false positives) are more likely in those under 30 and even more likely in those under 25. The procedure itself is bad enough, and then this happens, serious burns. This “simple” test so often leads to ugly and harmful places.
      Leave young women alone and even better, leave all HPV- women alone and that’s almost all of us. So many women are healthy and happy until this testing starts…

    • The most terrifying thing is that the patient probably told the quacks that it hurts, but they dismissed her complains, told her that the procedure is “painless” and must be done to save her life. Butchers!

    • This is terrible. But remember that more than one woman was harmed.

      I used to work in a lab so I know that glacial acetic acid causes second degree burns when spilled on the skin. But any pharmacist in the world knows that glacial acetic acid when diluted to 5% is essentially normal distilled household vinegar. There is no reason to purchase reagent grade acetic acid and have it diluted by a pharmacist. It is only to add to costs. Some colpolscopy clinics just buy large jugs of food grade 5% distilled vinegar.

      This “accident” just shows how careless this clinic is. You have to wonder if they sanitize surfaces or even sterilize equipment when they get the vinegar wrong. I did hear of another case of a woman being damaged when a doctor mixed up cleaning solution from a spray bottle instead of vinegar in her vagina.

      • The whole thing is bizarre. Who came up with the idea of painting solutions on cervixes anyway? It’s like a grotesque painting by numbers except this is women’s lives and dignity!

      • Kat, thank you so much for adding your comments to the NHS site about helping patients decide whether screening is the right choice for them. Anne Mackie is director of screening services in the UK and it is remarkable that not only have our comments stayed up, but she has kindly replied to two of them. And on an NHS website too. Pete Taylor’s comments were excellent.

      • I posted this on the NHS site:

        “I think informed consent is largely an academic exercise in women’s cancer screening and sometimes in practice, there is no consent at all. Coverage is the thing that matters and protecting the program. (not women) Take note of the language used in women’s cancer screening, “capturing” women, “non-compliant women” or “the unscreened” or “overdue” or “failed to attend” or “all women must” or “all women should”.
        I don’t see or hear anything that suggests we have a real choice about testing. Opportunistic screening is also openly encouraged with GPs rewarded for reaching screening targets. (but this potential conflict of interest is never mentioned to women)

        I don’t understand how the medical profession could possibly think this is an appropriate way to treat women, it says to me there are some serious issues and inappropriate attitudes within the profession. You don’t have the right to make screening decisions for us, to accept risk on our behalf and our bodies belong to us, not to the medical profession and these programs.

        Some women are ambushed in the consult room with a power dynamic that means some will unwillingly submit to the test, we might not care who looks at our sprained ankle, but a pap test is a very different matter. I also believe that predatory doctors have used this program to take advantage of women who enter their consult room for any reason, the lack of respect for consent and informed consent means these doctors can safely pressure or even coerce women into a pap test.
        I’m 57 and have never had a pap test. I did some early research and rejected them, but quickly found that, “no, thank you” was unacceptable, we were all just expected to screen and scolded and judged if we didn’t. There is an anger, an impatience with women who refuse to submit when directed to do so.
        I’ve listened to this program mislead women for decades, violate our legal rights and know many women who’ve been traumatized and harmed by this program. Some women now avoid all medical care because of past pap test/false positive/excess biopsy/over-treatment trauma or pap test pressure. Almost all of the damage was avoidable with an evidence-based program and informed consent.

        We see the same thing with breast screening, the same disrespectful and inappropriate attitudes and unethical practices. (I’ve declined to screen, an informed decision)

        When you have screening targets in place and when you reward GPs for reaching targets, when you dismiss informed consent (and even consent itself) this can’t be cancer screening, it’s medical abuse.
        I hope there is some justice one day for all the women abused by this program.
        Informed consent…it’s missing in women’s cancer screening programs. We might get lip service, but it’s business as usual at the surgery level. The language says it all, unscreened, non-compliant, overdue, should, must, necessary, failed to attend etc. etc.”

        Let’s see if it gets past the moderators.

      • Elizabeth, I often wonder how many women you saved from psychological trauma, severe problems in sexual life, butchered reproductive organs, miscarriages, pain, humiliation and depression… Just by letting them know the truth about the “life-saving” (actually, life-wrecking) pap smears, hidden agenda and vested interests withing the medical system. I bet no doctor in the world saved so many women trough his/her whole career!

  57. http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-us/cancer-news/press-release/2015-09-21-over-fifty-per-cent-do-not-go-for-new-bowel-cancer-test

    Trial in UK finds that less than half of population took up offer of new bowel screening test offered at age 55. Plan is for UK national roll out to take place by 2018, and get 75% uptake by 2020.

    Seeing as this test is also for men, it would be interesting to see how the propaganda shapes up. I wonder what colour the ribbon will be? Brown?

    • The same old story – a screening test gets rolled out, it’s invasive and the powers that be can’t understand why more people didn’t jump at the chance! The new trial sent out invitations – no informed consent, then there are plans to raise the uptake – informed consent anyone?

      I do like the idea of a brown ribbon.

      • Yet they readily understood why so many men refused a digital rectal exam, I read so many times that a non-invasive test was required as soon as possible. Whenever pap testing was raised, “oh, well, women are used to these exams, they have them their entire lives and they go through pregnancy and childbirth”.
        Talk about a double standard, more to the point, men are viewed differently by the medical profession and they’d never dream of using coercion or other tactics to force men into screening. Our privacy, dignity, health and legal rights don’t matter, that was the take home message.
        Of course, PSA testing is highly controversial, there is no formal program and never will be and the DRE is not recommended either. Some doctors recommend these tests, others don’t, but at least men are aware it’s a controversial subject and that testing is entirely a matter for them…wouldn’t that be a nice change?

      • So it’s a person’s right to decline or accept but they want to increase uptake and break down barriers (brainwash)! Cynical naughty kat

      • Women probably have had more than enough invasive screening and are thinking oh god not again not up my backside this time! Hence more men this time?

    • No worries adawells! I did leave another one but don’t think that got passed the moderator but 2 outta 3 ain’t bad!

      • Let’s hope finally thanks to women like sue, Elizabeth adawells, Linda to name but a few that attitudes to screening are finally changing!

      • Thanks kat. I had a fab opportunity yesterday. I went into a 6th form were they were discussing smear tests. In one blow i have saved about twenty girls directly if not the entire 6th form as you know how they talk. I also taught some sociology. Was able to incorporate smear tests as an example of how we all follow the current thinking without questioning. It was a great day for those girls!

  58. http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/australias-cervical-cancer-screening-selfcollection-program-a-world-first-20150930-gjyd9x.html
    As usual we’re rewriting history, what about the Dutch? I understand HPV self-testing will be available there under their new program. (that starts early next year)
    It also irks me the attitude that now HPV self-testing is an option for the never-screened or those way “overdue”, that there is no “excuse” we must all screen now.
    These people just don’t get it, screening is an option, not a law, whether they like it or not. I will never take part in any Australian program, I know what’s been going on for decades. I don’t trust these people, and don’t want to be part of any central register or my results being used in research or anything else.
    I’ll continue to decline…and I hope women who want to screen and would prefer self-testing demand immediate access or know they can buy a self-test kit online.

    • Same here Elizabeth. I am and will continue opting out, declining, deregistering and deleting my personal data from everything I possible can. Pap crap registers, any other screening and mass butchering “programs”, eHealth, PCEHR, MyHR, whatever else our “caring” govt invents.

      These registers and databases cannot be trusted with one bit of our personal information. It will be immediately misused to the profit of the system, not to the benefit of the patient.

  59. http://www.pulseitmagazine.com.au/australian-ehealth/2642-tender-goes-out-for-national-cancer-screening-register
    The noose tightens…you can opt out, but if you test then your details go onto the register.
    I heard that GPs will be able to search the register to check whether their patients have screened, not sure about that, I’m trying to get to the detail. It will be interesting to see whether women have to register with a medical practice, that would concern me because it suggests they might get print-outs of the “overdue” and “unscreened” and women may face even more pressure to screen.

    • I wish Australian government would stop wasting our tax money on there disgusting registers. Pressure, propaganda, invasion of privacy, surveillance and harm. Nothing else comes from there registers.

    • The register will provide an ongoing data feed to DoH’s enterprise data warehouse, which will be responsible for all strategic reporting to register stakeholders, except individuals. The PCEHR will be the mechanism that provides information to individuals.

      As usual: the whole enterprise gets all our personal data, except for us, the individuals. Instead, we will be forced to use the PCEHR privacy-invading behemoth.

    • Hi Eliz & Alice. I had no idea Aust is such a totalitarian state. Sounds like the gov is on the verge of making all these cancer tests compulsory. You have to do your part in making thus as hard for them as poss.

  60. Hi guys!

    I haven’t posted for while but I still get comments sent to my email, which is a great way to keep up.

    I had to get some pathology tests done recently, and I noted on the pathology form (it’s Australian, NSW) that the cervical screening register is now ‘opt-out’!! What the?!?! Also very disappointing and disgusting to see that the pap test is highlighted right up the top of the form in big letters. Because as we all know, nothing about womens health is more important than the pap test (we’re all just walking cervixes, right?? Heart health, other organs, anything else – nah! Just the vajay-jay). Pretty disgusting.

    I tried calling the phone number provided on the cervical screening homepage to see if you can ‘opt-out’ over the phone, but surprise, surprise, you CANNOT call the number from your mobile phone, only a landline. Obviously smelling a big rat here… that must be why the webpage says you have to WRITE A LETTER to opt-out of the program (and do your parents/husband/boyfriend/partner have to sign it too?) if you missed the little ‘opt-out’ box (and it is absolutely tiny) on the pathology form.

    I have written the following complaint to the NSW cervical register. I expect the usual response about helping little girls not get cancer, or just no response at all. I do mean the bit about contacting Fair Trading NSW though. The program is a customer service after all – even if the program itself acts like a prison service and we’re all inmates.

    ‘Dear NSW Cervical Register,

    I have been reading that the register is now an ‘OPT-OFF’ register, instead of ‘OPT-IN’, thereby not allowing women the right (and privacy) to NOT be automatically included in a ‘program’.

    The webpage makes some rather startling admissions about the program and how women are treated.

    My concerns are this:

    Women are not being treated as mature adults who can be responsible for their own health – instead they have to be talked down to and rounded up into programs.

    The register is in NO WAY voluntary if women have to work out for themselves (or go trawling through the small speak on the webpage to get information) how not to be included in the program. They have to be alert and into the details to see the little ‘opt-out’ box on the pathology form. Most doctors would not tell women they can ‘opt-out’ – then they might actually, opt-out! Imagine that… The majority of women have no idea that cervical screening is voluntary at all. Why should they? The message has always been ‘must’, ‘should’ and in past cases, ‘have to’ (if you listen to most GP’s).

    The suggestion that women have to write a letter to be removed from the register is utterly preposterous. Do they also need their parents/boyfriend/husband to sign it as well and authuorise it?? Like naughty 5-year-old-schoolgirls? I tried calling the contact number with my mobile to confirm if merely calling will get you off the register but the number does not accept calls from mobile phones. Very strange when the majority of the population only has a mobile phone and not a landline anymore!

    It also says that the date-of-birth and test results will NOT be removed from the register. That is very high-handed and condescending. Again, women are not being treated as mature people with rights. The notion that you are keeping these details and you think you HAVE the right to keep them is ridiculous. As a scientist myself I can see why you would want to keep them, but it is completely ignoring basic human rights and requests for your own benefit (are you helping and respecting women or not? It does appear to be not!).

    There’s a very common thread here with this register that women apparently have to be told what to do, are not allowed to make requests about their own information, and have very little rights at all.

    I think a complaint to Fair Trading about the forced ‘opt-out’ procedure and wether you actually have the right to keep information on women when they request to opt-out (date-of-birth and test results) is the nest step. Because honestly, I find the actions of the register (and indeed, the cervical screening program) to be out of the middle ages, and condescending and insulting towards women.

    The women I talk to describe the cervical screening program and register as ‘pressure, propaganda, invasion of privacy, surveillance and harm’ – and I entirely agree…

    Thank you.’

    Ozphoenix

    • Thank you for the warning, and for making the complaint!
      Even more reason to check all the medical paperwork down to the last tiny detail. The sneaky system does not hesitate to tuck very important opt-out boxes in tiny font in the far corner. I just feel sorry for people who don’t have perfect vision or time to scan through the heaps of text.

      We all should be doing the same with the upcoming opt-out eHealth (PCEHR, MyHR, Australian electronic health records, piracy-invading monster, or whatever else the health dictators in the Australian government are going to rename it to). OPT OUT at all costs!!! We will never be told in advance what the govermnent is going to use our private information for, but one thing is guaranteed: once the information is in their database, it will never be deleted, even if they say it was. In the modern databases, the data is only marked as “deleted”, yet it remains in the database and can be accesses by those who run it, or hack it.

      It isn’t hard to foresee that our medical records data will be passed onto researchers for inventing new ways of cutting corners in the health care, onto medical bureocrats for developing new strategies of control and surveliance, onto screening registers for bombarding us with reminders and pressuring the non-compliant rebels into their “life-saving” programs. Whatever the use of our personal information is going to be, it will not be for our benefit. We already learned it from our “very successful” Pap test program.

      • Hi Alice!

        Yes, I heard a while ago about the upcoming change to the eHealth records. The government is very upset that they’ve spent so much money on it, and the take-up rate for it has been rather glacial. Instead of addressing concerns about privacy, they keep pushing the convenience message – all your records in one place, the right hand and left hand know what they are doing, conflicting medicines won’t be prescribed, they’ll know our allergies, etc, etc. Not much of a peep about privacy or that the information won’t be used against us.

        I did go to a new doctor recently, and he seemed to know a lot more about me than what I had just told him. I think I’ll ask if somehow I’ve already been ‘opted-in’ and I have an active eHealth record. I am suspicious.

        I agree, opting out does not delete your current information, it just means the doctor can’t access it (I think we should take that promise with a grain of salt) and new information won’t be added into it, I think.

      • Ozphoenix, they do promise (as much as we can trust Australian govt about medical records and privacy), that if we opt out from the very start, we won’t have a record at all, and no new data will be added to the database. That’s why it is important to keep an eye on Australian eHealth, and opt out ASAP, once the system is changed from opt-in to opt-out.

  61. Oh, and just to add – making the cervical screening register ‘opt-out’ instead of ‘opt-in’ surely must have nothing to do with the falling screening rates due to informed women, could it? Nah…

    • Well, it makes it kind of confrontational- that someone has to go & “deactivate” the sitaution in contrast to the other party. No offense, but men are usually more okay with that & other people use that.

      Maybe it helps for someone to be able to put words to it (or just a qualitative assessment & not necessarily needing words)?

  62. Was pottering around on the internet when I came across this little gem on the Health Complaints Commissioner Tasmania website (for international people, Tasmania is a state of Australia) –

    “BreastScreen Tasmania Refusal to perform a mammogram in absence of consent to share information with AIHW”

    “A woman complained that she was denied a mammogram by BreastScreen Tasmania because she did not tick all the boxes in the consent for screening section of the registration form. She had not agreed to the release of her personal information to the Australian Institute of Health & Welfare (AIHW) and other organisations.
    She was aware that a refusal to provide personal information to other medical practitioners may result in her not being able to participate in the BreastScreen Program, but did not understand how a refusal to share information with AIHW would have any bearing on the quality and outcome of the service being provided. She was seeking a change in policy and procedure, and access to the service.
    BreastScreen advised that it receives funding from both the State and Commonwealth governments and that the provision of information to the AIHW is a requirement of the Commonwealth funding. They acknowledged that the consent for screening section of the form had led to a number of women believing that they could access the service without consenting to the release of this information and the form would be reviewed.
    Our Office asked BreastScreen to include a paragraph in its form explaining the funding arrangements and advising that in order to access the service, the patient / client is required to consent to information being released to other organisations for research purposes. This recommendation was adopted by BreastScreen.
    The woman subsequently indicated that she had another appointment with BreastScreen and had consented to all aspects of the consent section of the registration form enabling her to have a mammogram.”

    Glad to see this poor intelligent woman stood her ground for a little while, at least.

    As for Breastscreen, well, well, well, it ain’t all about helping women at all, is it now? Courtesy of a little ‘funding’ problem which means you freely hand over all the information of the women you call in for screening with all those lovely invitations, to anyone you feel like. Please note the sentence which says, “release of her personal information to the Australian Institute of Health & Welfare (AIHW) and OTHER organisations”. I wonder who the ‘other’ organisations are?

    I’m willing to bet that women going to Breastscreen have no flipping idea about any of this. It’s all been kept very quiet, I think. I’m also willing to bet that exactly the same thing happens with Papscreen. After all, why wouldn’t it? Selling information is profitable. Immoral and wrong, especially with very private, medical information, but profitable.

    How much more will it take to shatter the flowers and fairies view of cancer screening organisations? The caring, smiling photographs of women on their websites? The media releases
    carefully tailored to suck in women with the ‘we care about you!’ propaganda?

    Here’s the link to the website if you want to read more. Quite frankly, reading the other cases there makes for sobering reading. Neither doctors nor hospitals appear to be held to account for anything much. Read the complaint made by a woman that the medical clinic refused to call a ambulance for her dying husband stricken in the medical clinic carpark. The recommendation was that the clinic staff become ‘more flexible’ and ‘deal with an emergency in a more considerate way’. Yeah, use the words please, thank you and sorry when you refuse to call an ambulance because you don’t think it is appropriate when someone is dying a few metres away….

    • The way Australian government is behaving, with it’s new mantra “everything is for sale”, I’m afraid, the “other organisations” will eventually include insurance companies.

      Insurance companies, especially the ones that provide life insurance, health insurance, loss of income insurance, accident insurance, car insurance and prepaid funeral, will be glad to pay enormous amount of money to get access to our medical records. Will the government resist the lucrative offer? I doubt it!

  64. Hello Everybody

    I’ve found the following article somewhere on the internet about 2 weeks ago, but it is not there any more. The webpage must have been removed for obvious reasons, which you’re going to find out when you read the article. I managed to copy the text and paste it in Word as I was looking for some information about immunisation.
    Here it is:

    POLAND – THE TOTALITARIAN POLICY OF VACCINATIONS 

    PLEASE, READ THIS INFORMATION AND PASS IT ON TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN. TOGETHER, WE ARE MORE LIKELY TO INFLUENCE THE HORRIFYING POLICY OF IMMUNISATIONS IN POLAND.

    Poland is a country situated in Central Europe. Yet, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Poland considerably differs from the vast majority of the other European countries and Russia in such an important and basic aspect of life as human rights. These human rights concern immunisations.

    Let us have a look at the vaccination policy IN POLAND. Every specified item below will purposefully contain  the repeated words: IN POLAND or POLAND in capital letters so that the reader can remember exactly where the inhumane practices take place. 

    IN POLAND, vaccines are given to newborn babies within the first 24 hours after their birth! These vaccines are against TABERCULOSIS and HEPATITIS B.

    IN POLAND, swabs from the ear, nose or throat are hardly ever taken during an infection of a disease, so the doctor does not  know exactly what kind of disease it is – viral, bacterial, parasitic or allergic.

    POLAND is the only country in Europe which has never ratified the European Bioethics Convention. What does it mean? There is an extremely important resolution in the European Bioethics Convention which says that human life and health are the superior values and under no cirumstances can they be subjected to the general well-being. It is IN POLAND that any new medicines and vaccines can be freely tested on people. Well, it can be said that POLAND is the experimental polygon of any pharmaceutical companies.

    In 16 European countries there is no compulsion of vaccinations. In 13 European countries and Russia as well there are compensations for the victims of unwanted vaccine side effects, whereas IN POLAND not only vaccines are compulsory, but also there are no compensations at all for the victims of unwanted vaccine side effects.

    IN POLAND, an institution called the Sanitary and Epidemiological Inspectorate (Pl. Sanepid) is the distributor of vaccines and their supervisor. IN POLAND, trainings for doctors and nurses are run by people cooperating with pharmaceutical companies.
    IN POLAND, a Mamber of Parliament Lidia Gądek who belongs to the Civic Platform Party (Pl. PO – Platforma Obywatelska), introduced a plan made by the mentioned party of including four additional vaccines in the compulsory immunisation calendar. These vaccines are against pneumococcus, meningococcus, chicken pox and the very controversial vaccine against HPV called Gardasil (IN POLAND also named Silgard being the anagram of the word Gardasil). The vaccine is said to be against cervical cancer, but it is becoming known more and more widely that the HPV vaccine is causing fatal side effects. IN POLAND, the Gardasil is to be for free. However, there is a reason for fear because, unfortunately, IN POLAND, when it comes to medical practices,”for free” means ”compulsory”. It is terrifying that POLAND as the first and only country in the world is introducing the controversial HPV vaccine as compulsory. The HPV vaccine has been strongly criticised and protested against in other coutries.  In France, many doctors filed a written petition against using the Gardasil vaccine (http://sanevax.org/french-petition-hpv-vaccines/), and in Japan the Department for Health withdrew their approval for the HPV vaccine (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/806645). It is appaling that the number of the HPV vaccine is still growing. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gCVCP8BFrU  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5GquxhjDRY  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2i-r39hok  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgZbwSpf-sc

    Well, it looks like Polish girls are next in turn. IN POLAND, there exists the so called STOP NOP FOUNDATION (Pl. NOP – Niepożądane Odczyny Poszczepienne – Unwanted Side Effects of Vaccines). Every week, the organisation receives  a great number of reports from parents / carers of babies and teenagers as well as adults about serious side effects of vaccines (miscellaneous ones). The STOP NOP work very hard helping the harmed victims and their families with legal aspects concerning the procedures of side effects of vaccines. Nevertheless, the STOP NOP are not either respected or taken seriously at all by the Polish Government. In July 2015, when the STOP NOP representatives participated in the meeting of the National Health Committee of Health regarding the new vaccine regulations, they were not allowed to speak, though they had pass permits as the meeting participants! One of the MPs even questioned their presence in the meeting asking what they were doing there. It implies that the reports of as many as 17.000 parents who informed the STOP NOP about serious side effects of vaccines were totally ignored, just thrown away.
    One of the main associated members of the employers’ union IN POLAND is INFARMA. Infarma consists of 29 pharmaceutical companies. In such circumstances, lobbying and pressure for the new vaccine law to be passed are unavoidable. Furthermore, the INFARMA wants to secretly push through a law which will allow to introduce vaccines against influenza in regulations of workplaces IN POLAND. This law is going to be compulsory as well. IN POLAND, there are plans to vaccinate newborn babies against influenza. The issue of vaccinating pregnant women against influenza is being also considered, which is more and more often mentioned in advertisements and medical recommendations. However, there is no information in the influenza vaccine leaflets about any clinical research on the prenatal development. Nobody has done it so far and it looks like pregnant women are supposed to be medical guinea pigs. Unfortunately, this vaccine may cause a permanent damage of the foetus. It seems vital to mention, however, that 95% OF MEDICAL STAFF IN POLAND DO NOT GET VACCINATED! Well, if the 95% were immunised, the vaccination plan would be carried out, wouldn’t it?
    Let’s come back to the topic of the introduction of the HPV vaccine – Gardasil (also known as Silgard in Poland). When 11 and 12-year-old girls were vaccinated with Gardasil IN POLAND, a great number of their parents were not informed at all about the side effects of the vaccine! Even though parents have reported the side effects, often serious ones, they have been simply ignored by the medical staff. They simply hear from doctors that what has happened to their daughters has nothing in common with the vaccine!
    In Denmark, a great number of girls have been permanently harmed by the HPV vaccine.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO2i-r39hok)
    Similarly, 300 girls in Columbia experienced serious side effects of the same vaccine, where it caused paralysis and consciousness loss.
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvAOoDtbdVI)
    IN POLAND, the same incidents take place, but THEY ARE NOT SPOKEN ABOUT! Once, a teacher from one of smaller junior high schools IN POLAND was horribly shocked to see that SEVERAL DOZENS of girls vaccinated against HPV fainted, lost consciousness and got seizures after returning to school. Before that, they had been fetched to a medical centre and given the HPV Gardasil vaccine. When the teacher wanted to call for an ambulance, the school headteacher infromed her that if she did this, she would be dismissed from work immediately! The whole incident was barefacedly camouflaged! Nobody got to know about this! There are lots of incidents IN POLAND in which GIRLS, WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS’ KNOWLEDGE, ARE TAKEN TO MEDICAL CENTRES AND VACCINATED WITH GARDASIL (THE HPV VACCINE)! To make matters worse, IN POLAND only 1% of doctors report side effects of any vaccines that children’s parents inform them about! Well, how come that IN POLAND, merely 1% of doctors act in accordance with the rules of the medical ethic? Polish girls are aimed to be medical guinea pigs on whom HPV Gardasil is being tested. Large numbers of girls all over the world who have been vaccinated with Gardasil, have been experiencing dramatic side effects, which mostly are: 
    -headaches
    -imbalance
    -fainting
    -exhaustion
    -memory and concentration disorders
    -sleeping problems
    -changes in the sleep rhythm
    A great number of girls experience:
    -hypersensitivity to bright light and have blurred vision
    -dysponea during physical activity. The dysponea is combined with heart palpitation.
    -muscular fatigue which impedes walking
    The mascular fatigue experienced by the HPV vaccine victims is felt as if numbness of arms and legs, or as paralysed arms and shoulders as well as legs which makes it really impossible to walk.
    The next side effects of the Gardasil vaccine are:
    -nausea and stomachache
    -lots of girls suddenly experience a wide range of food allergy, which makes them change their diet.
    -large numbers of girls suffer from unintentional movements, muscle cramps especially in their hands and legs. Plenty of the girls report their muscles are weakened and many of them move on wheelchairs.
    (http://nyhederne.tv2.dk/2015-08-31-hpv-saadan-er-symptomerne)

    More horrifying issue is that the HPV Gardasil vaccine is closely linked to premature menopause in girls and young women who experience lack of menstruation even as early as at the age of 16. Gardasil makes ovaries stop working. There is the evidence of the potential of the HPV vaccine to trigger a life-disabling autoimmune condition. How dreadful and distressing it must be for young women to face the fact that they will not be able to have children in the future. http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/studyhpv-vaccine-linked-to-premature-menopause-in-young-girls/
    Not only does Gardasil bring about serious health deterioration, but it also causes infertility. Can it be concluded that the specific HPV vaccine WAS PURPOSEFULLY (not unintentionally!) PRODUCED TO DEPOPULATE NATIONS (especially Slavic)?
    In spite of so many experienced, proven and testified dramatic side effects of the HPV vaccine (Gardasil) , THE POLISH GOVERNMENT VOTED FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF THE FATAL VACCINE. It seems important to mention that the vast majority of Members of Parliament IN POLAND voted for this controversial vaccine. Amongst 432 MPs, as many as 406 voted for the lethal HPV vaccine, 25 were against it, whereas only 1 MP abstained from the vote. To top it all, the Senate of the Republic of Poland  voted for it as well! Finally, the new President of POLAND, Andrzej Duda signed the new law, according to which the HPV vaccine (Gardasil) IS TO BE COMPULSORY IN POLAND FROM THE BEGINNING OF 2017.
    What can people IN POLAND who do not wish to immunise their children do now? It needs to be emphasised that they do not give their consent to vaccinating their children not because they simply do not wish to do so for some weird reasons. They do so for fear of very serious and often horrifying side effects that many children have been experiencing, or because their children have got side effects after being given previous vaccines. What can parents IN POLAND do when their daughters are fetched to medical centres, OFTEN SECRETLY, to be given an HPV jab? What can they expect in case they decline the vaccine? What will happen to them and their children if they decline the HPV Gardasil and other vaccines? They realise severe consequences of the TOTALITARIAN AND TOTALLY ROTTEN MEDICAL SYSTEM IN POLAND against which they have to fight. This is the ill system which charges them with huge amounts of money to pay for not having their child / children vaccinated.
    The medical practices IN POLAND can be undoubtedly described as absolutely inhumane. The question is when Polish parents, who live IN POLAND will have the legal right to decide about their children’s health and well-being. How is it possible that IN POLAND people are forced to undergo a medical procedure without their giving prior informed consent to having such a procedure done?!
    PLEASE, PASS THIS ARTICLE ON TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN. TOGETHER, WE ARE MORE LIKELY TO INFLUENCE THE TERRIFYING POLICY OF IMMUNISATIONS IN POLAND.
    Despaired parents from POLAND.

    • Hey, Jola. Poland was trying to mandate all kinds of mandatory probing for women that were looking to get jobs, too- if I remember a few of your posts correctly. It certainly sounds like Nazi occupation stained Poland’s style of doing things (although I’ve heard the Soviet era had some similarities).

      How are things otherwise? Are you getting slammed with the migrant stuff where you live? I remember thinking of you when I heard Poland’s reaction to all that, even though it seems you & there don’t mix so well on some issues.

      P.S.: I know it’s not the same country, but how does the Czech Republic compare? I remember you suggesting it to me way back & it still seems like a good place that I’m very keen on moving to. I’m still trying to tie up some things with citizenship & it seems that the Czechs might leave the EU over all this immigration/invasion bullshit (although I’ve heard you can get residency with quite a few countries if you buy property there- Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Latvia are the only ones I know, but it seems there are others).

      • Hi Alex

        Yes, indeed, Poland has been always trying to mandate the totalitarian medical requirements on the society. Luckily, the compulsory humiliating pap smear was so much criticised and protested against that it didn’t come out. As for immunisation regulations, they have remained from the 60’s and they must be changed as soon as possible, but big pharma’s servants will do anything for money so they are so persistent in forcing parents to have their children vaccinated. Well, there are old regulations and laws as well as people whose only aim is to get money from the pharmaceutical companies for promoting the vaccines. However, more and more parents in Poland are becoming more aware of the dangers on the vaccines, especially of the HPV Gardasil vaccine and they decide not to have their children vaccinated. Vaccination awareness campaigns are growing and attracting greater numbers of people who don’t care about being charged with some money for not having their children vaccinated as they fight against these lawless penalties imposed on them by town or city mayors, or by the Sanitary and Epidemiological Institution. These fines are against the Constitution and more and more Polish people are waking up and perceiving that they have something like the Constitution, like human rights, like one of their basic rights just to decline a medical intervention which they do not give their consent to at all. This is really wonderful and incredible. I, myself, don’t recognise the Polish society that have been changing day by day, week by week, etc. and passing their knowledge to other people. It is like a chain. These courageous people, are organising themselves into groups that give lectures to the public on side effects of the vaccines. The medical staff are really beginning to be scared of what is going on and they are doing all they can to stop it, but somehow they aren’t able to do this – the more they are trying to ”calm the protesters down”, the more protests, discontent, criticism and aggravation they face from these people – unbelievable but it is happening. The unreasonable and inhumane law regarding the vaccinations will be changed sooner or later. In Poland, not vaccinated children, are allowed to attend infant nurseries, nurseries and schools, though there have been many actions from the stubborn government to ”punish” defiant people. Unfortunately, in the Czech Republic, children are not so lucky – they have to be vaccinated. But, this information is on the basis of what I watched on youtube about the Czech Republic – I admit my husband and I are very disappointed with this information as we were planning to move to the Czech Republic. I’m thinking of telephoning some people from immunisation awareness groups in the Czech Republic to ask them what the situation looks like there. I feel something must be changing in that country, too. In my free time, I will find some phone numbers and call. Writing e-mails may not make sense as the people may be too busy to reply at all. I am very curious about this.
        I will let you know when I have found out the information. All the best for you.

      • Thanks, Jola. I’d really appreciate that. As for the Czech Republic, does that mean if the children are born there or just that the ARE there? Does it make a difference if you’re homeschooling them? I figure I’ll be heading to somewhere in Eastern Europe, so if you find anything on other places would be great.

        Just to mention it (obth to ask if you know anything about them & because we seem to have similar tastes in environments): I still think of Spain & the rest of the Mediterranean, but it seeems it would be pretty hard to make ends meet at the moment. Also, there seems to be what’s called a “gag law” in place in Spain right now (makes public behavior more or less criminal). That’s something I was looking to get away from America for, but then maybe Spain will dissolve that. Portugal still seems interesting & it seems you can get residency by buying property there.

  65. I was at university in the early 90s and started to get some shoulder and neck pain every now and again. It happened for a couple of days and then went away for a week, then it came suddenly back for another day or so. It happened again a few weeks later and it was really bad for two days and I had to miss an essay deadline that was quite important.

    I went to see a uni doctor, who was a man probably in his 50s. He had me get down to my bra and knickers and felt my back and shoulders and stuff, then made me bend over in front of him while he felt my back and hips. Then he examined my hips while I stood up straight, and his hip exam seemingly included running his hands over my bum!!

    He said he didn’t know what the problem was and that I needed to see him again the next week. The prick wouldn’t give me a medical note until the second appointment, so I had to go back and strip down for him again. The pain actually didn’t come back, and he never figured out what it was, but he did give me the note.

    About a year later, a friend of mine went to see the same doctor with some tummy problems. She said he made her take off her top, trousers and knickers (so she was just in a bra). He felt her tummy, then had her put her hands up against the wall, with her legs apart, and did an internal exam from behind.

    An internal exam in that way?! I’m sure that my friend was an attractive netball player was just a coincidence!!

    We agreed that the guy was a grade-A creeper, and that we’d never see him again.

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