forwomenseyesonly

Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.

3,978 comments

  1. Just read something interesting on four different models of physician-patient relationship by Robert Veatch. Don’t know if he invented them or if he’s elaborating on them, but the paternalistic model is what it seems a lot of doctors go by. The Informative Model & the Interpretive Model seem best.

      • They have a comment form. I doubt that a website named cerviscreen is going to allow any of the comments that Elizabeth or Ada would send in. Just check back there in a while and see all the glowing remarks about women who were saved from cancer. I would just love the comment that I hate being constantly pressured to give access to my naked vagina and breasts everytime I walk into a medical office for some concern unrelated to my breasts or reproductive organs.

    • We have know about the Trovagene HPV urine test for how long? A few years? Not news to me. Just news that some researcher might consider some cheaper type of screening test.

      So what would happen to women who had a positive HPV urine test in countries where the cervical screening board sends out those red ink letters? The urine test could be tacked onto those innocent standard urinalysis tests we all have because the doctor cannot spend more than 3 minutes discussing symptoms and lifestyle/occupation clues that might help with a diagnosis. So what happens to the HPV positive woman over the magical age of 35? Does she get a red ink letter that she must attend colposcopy?

      You all might want to applaud a noninvasive test for HPV instead of the speculum and cervix scrape. What I really want is control over my body, ALL my test results and CHOICE for medical tests and treatments. When the cervical and other cancer screening and cancer diagnosis registries destroy my data and I am never harassed about screening by anyone again then I will rejoice. (I can understand the purpose of some registries for research and planning but all data should be volunteered freely)

  4. Ada I’m a bit puzzled you have a comment on the raising the bar website as do I??

  7. I think the concept of third-party control over them is greatly under-referenced. The idea of them being free “to practice medicine as they choose” is not “repressive” enough. Their “freedom” is a menace, in this case.

    I don’t know what else to say- a control freak should get a taste of their own medicine. They try to medicalize other people, they should become public property. Maybe it would be something of a scorch mark on their “cultural memory.”

    I say this because plenty of times it just amounts to some kind of a “movement” on their part or on the part of others that more or less control them when they are striving for more information- which they, of course, make assessments & draw conclusions to then act on (a “Boyd Cycle” or “OODA Loop”- it’s not just applicable to pilots in aerial battles). This can apply in both subtle & unsubtle ways.

    They seem to very frequently ambush & talk in very fixed terms (about what they “will” be doing or what someone is “going” to be having). That & saying what they “need” to do- it’s probably got a name, but whatever that tactic is called, it’s meant to remove choice on the part of the (at this point) assailed party. If a waiter or a waitress said “I need you to eat this” & tried to shove something in your mouth, that would be an issue. I think the knee-jerk thought is that “they’re going to die without it,” and it makes things fairly confrontational at that point- what is the negative response to that? “Fuck your needs” or “Go wanting”? Not necessarily a problem to literally say, but the issue is decommissioning the situation.

    • I guess someone could say: “Well, an action has to be engaged in order to occur & sustenance of an action is not a universal justification.” Maybe add to that: “It’s not like it’s an injustice if I decide what does or does not go into my body” (where it applies- “what happens to my body” would be a bit broader). Maybe add to THAT: “I also preclude any arguments or re-directions.”

      Seriously, should shock collars be involved? It seems like the general public needs to be given little remotes like for car alarms that would work to zap the shit out someone that gets out of line with them at the hospital. I DO imagine there would be surprisingly large numbers of people that would go for that- although if they like that sort of thing, they might act up just as frequently as the previous batch did! Maybe making work conditions in such a way that it’s more attractive to “submissive” people? Hey- at least they’re not picking a fight with the patients/priorities, right?

      [See, that’s an idea right there: Calling patients “priorities” instead. Arrogant, dictatorial, or otherwise “conquest-aligned” personnel would likely have a HUGE problem with that- referencing them as “my priority” & all. Plus, it might have something of a cognitive effect on the culture- a “patient” is just a word that doesn’t really make sense to a lot of people & a “customer” is a pain in the ass, a “priority” is exactly that.]

  8. I get a lot of emails from Science Daily about CC & screening etc. and they continue to suggest more and more risk factors for CC – there no end in trying to “convince us to screen” https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160609115437.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fhealth_medicine%2Fcervical_cancer+%28Cervical+Cancer+News+–+ScienceDaily%29
    Lupus confirmed as risk factor for cervical cancer
    Women with lupus treated with immunosuppressives need regular cervical screening

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160430100243.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fhealth_medicine%2Fcervical_cancer+%28Cervical+Cancer+News+–+ScienceDaily%29
    Stress and depression is linked to HPV-related health problems
    Study links stress levels of adolescents to health complications from human papillomavirus, which can include cervical cancer

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160415081420.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fhealth_medicine%2Fcervical_cancer+%28Cervical+Cancer+News+–+ScienceDaily%29
    Treatment for chronic hepatitis B linked to increased rates of colorectal and cervical cancer

  9. Another website which you can subscribe to is Pulse – what I like about this site is the comments made by the various health professionals GP’s/Practice Managers etc. 1 great comment here:
    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/clinical/more-clinical-areas/womens-health/gps-could-offer-hpv-self-sampling-to-women-who-miss-smear-tests-say-researchers/20009523.article
    I currently get daily emails from them and have found it to be very interesting – happy reading folks

      • Ever notice how much “instruction” is needed to tell these people blatantly obvious things? It’s like “freedom of speech” in America- it’s not really the style, so it has to CONSTANTLY be referenced.

        I think they truly forget that their occupation is only theoretically important because of these “low people,” otherwise there’d be no one to treat. Part of it might have to do with their resources- kind of like they feel rich or something & think this goes with it. Maybe they think “they’re the best” & “they win” because of that?

      • It’s not just the abusive medical profession who need so much “instruction”. It’s the rest of us too who need to be reminded of the truth after we’ve had these professionals “mis-explain” things to us. Informed consent IS what you initially thought it was – there’s no such thing as “blanket consent”, unless you think there is. Then, you kind of “roll over and play dead” because you believe there’s “nothing you can do” about it.

  10. Something I noticed that seems to apply (bear with me, it’s somewhat complicated): People frequently believe that someone only gets what they deserve, even if it’s a subconscious kind of thing.

    The idea would be that good goes to good, bad goes to bad, someone will win if they’re right (whether it’s an argument or a fight), if someone tells the truth they’ll be believed, and someone will only get held in the esteem that they deserve (both by others & by themselves). This is like believing that if you work hard you’ll get “paid hard.” It COULD happen, but there’s no ambient “Santa Claus Principle” to make it go that way.

    The idea of what esteem someone is held in plays a massive role in medicine because of their certification. Someone might very well figure that they wouldn’t be certified if they were a certain way & sometimes people think that being certified means that they are not only the “100 Average Expert,” but that they have an overall sway over the situation as a concept- like a soldier being able to do anything combat related & never misses the bullseye.

    The idea comes up again when these people hold THEMSELVES in a high esteem- the idea would be that they wouldn’t think that way about themselves if it weren’t true. It’s not rare for someone to start doubting themselves if the other party isn’t reversing course, so the person starts getting worried that their “cause” is unworthy.

    The concept also applies in court- since, if nothing else, it’s very daunting to think that something could come down on you that you don’t have coming. That, in a state where you couldn’t effectively counteract the situation (like if you’re injured, unconscious, or tied-up), someone might do something to you that you don’t want to have happen. So someone would potentially believe “Oh, they must have had that coming.” They basically feel that what happens to them only ever hinges on their own actions. Kind of like a God Complex, in a way.

  13. http://www.enhertsccg.nhs.uk › files › Feb2016

    They appear to be getting tough again. Page 16 says they are getting increases in the number of women signing the disclaimer form, so they are clamping down. Only the designated form (Appendix 5) can now be used, and guess where this comes from, why, the GP of course, after they have given you the compulsory counseling session.

    • A counselling session cannot surely be compulsory. The link isn’t working for me. Does it say that a GP will only release this form one a counselling session has been completed? What happens if a woman is insistent she doesn’t want screening and the GP refuses to authorise her request to remove her from the list? Is this even legal??

      And I thought Anne Mackie said we were free to decline screening – all 20% of us. LOL.

      I suspected this is how things would end up once that 20% “allowance” had been reached. Those numbers surpassing the 20% “limit” are basically not entitled to “informed consent” because they have reached the threshhold. Despite what they tell us about our “rights”, only doctors decide who can opt out of screening and who cannot.

      • It should all be part of the link. The text in black is part of the link. If you can paste the whole thing into your browser it might work. It def says opt out letter will only be accepted if it is the official one, and follows a consultation with GP.

      • I’ve copied and pasted segment:

        6.3 Disclaimers – women who do not want to attend screening
        Wherever possible, patients should remain on the Call/Recall system as ‘Non-Responders’. It’s
        recommended that women who refuse screening and disabled women are not ‘postponed’ but
        instead continue to receive their letters (recall and reminders). Should the woman choose not to
        attend screening she will still move on through the system as a Non-Responder. If she chooses
        to withdraw from the screening programme she can then sign a disclaimer. If a patient insists
        that she does not wish to attend cervical screening she can be invited to read and sign a
        disclaimer form to permanently remove her name from the recall register thus ceasing her from
        the programme. Please copy and only use the form in appendix 5 for this purpose. Only women
        making an informed choice not to participate in the screening programme should sign a
        disclaimer. The disclaimer states the woman is making an informed decision, she understands
        the benefits of cervical screening, she is taking responsibility for her decision to be removed
        from the programme and she understands that she will not be contacted or invited for screening
        again by NHSCSP (appendix 5). The original signed disclaimer should be retained in the
        medical record, a copy sent into the PCSS screening section and a copy given to the woman.
        Women should be encouraged to read the national cervical screening leaflet and should be
        counselled as part of their decision making process.
        The wording of the disclaimer form is taken from the published guidance ‘Consent to cervical
        screening’. The wording has been approved and considered appropriate by the legal advisors
        to the NHS screening programme. If you have a letter within the practice that has previously
        been used for this purpose, you must now use the standard version in this policy.
        Disclaimers that do not meet the required standard of information will be returned to the practice
        / sender and the woman will not be ceased.
        It should be noted that despite the woman’s name being withdrawn from Call/Recall, she
        remains part of the eligible population.
        The national guidance, issued in 2008, Cancer screening publication no. 4 indicates that
        Call/Recall programmes are unable to cease a patient due to woman’s choice without their
        written consent.
        (Please remember to send a copy of the signed disclaimer form to Hertfordshire PCSS,
        otherwise the woman will not be taken out of the recall programme.)
        6.4 Notifications relating to women ceased from Call/ Recall
        Advice /confirmations are sent electronically to GPs when a woman is ceased from the
        programme that is registered with their surgery to notify them of the reason for ceasing
        A letter is sent by PCSS to all patients being ceased from the programme to notify them that
        they have been ceased from the programme and inform them of the reason why.

    • On reflection, another tack that could be used is to play them at their own game. Go along with the counselling session (would this be a proper counselling session, or just a consultation or “lecture” from the GP), do everything they ask of you (after all, it is also a waste of their time too), sit calmly and silently, nodding here and there and when the counselling session is over, coolly (and annoyingly – to them anyway) proclaim that screening just isn’t for you – sorry. You could even state that the counselling has made you reflect and undertake further research which has just corroborated your reservations about screening even further and made you resolute to decline it.

      How could they refuse to allow you to sign the opt-out form then? While I am against compulsory counselling in practice, going along with it (whilst also sticking to your decision not to screen) could be an interesting way of out-flanking them. It could also give you the moral highground as they could not use the “she is irrational” card.

      • Good idea! They might even start to doubt themselves, too. They maybe don’t have that same confidence & they can’t use it to play image games on other people- which now don’t fall for their ploys & maybe it adds to things even further.

      • Alex – I tend to get angry about things and in this situation, my immediate instinct would be to defy them at every turn, but on reflection (and through personal experience!), I have noticed that psychological mind games (not of the psychopathic variety I hasten to add!) sometimes has more potency. I’ve noticed that it certainly confuses people and as you say, causes people to question themselves. If someone had the courage to try this out, it’d certainly be interesting to see how they were to respond.

  14. Look at this. This article has appeared on the BBC News website – the very same website I have previously lauded for their open, unbiased reporting of cervical screening and informed choice. Well, not any more.

    Interesting that Jo’s Cervical Cancer Charity (it had to be them behind it didn’t it) were behind this piece with their “research”. Seems we are fast approaching the screening thresshold of 70% (woo-hoo) and Jo’s Trust have got into a bit of a panic. Maybe, they are struggling to persuade the younger generation to comply with screening, the over 50s now seem to be their target (they will probably tap into the generational thing – how wonen of that age were taught by their mothers to bare all for the doctor, that this is a necessary evil and how it is just part of being a woman). Needless to say, I’m appalled. Even the Daily Mail seems to have drastically changed it’s tone on screening. What are the BBC playing at by publishing this rubbish?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-36503409

      • It’s the usual dross churned out by Jo’s PR team. Desperate in my view. A survey of 1000 women is hardly representative of the population and there is also the assumption that women tell the truth.

        Imagine the telephone interview…

        Interviewer – “I’m going to read out a series of statements, please choose one of the following:-

        Q. What is your reason for not attending your smear test?
        Your choices are:-
        A. Too embarrassed.
        B. Too hard to book an appointment.
        C. Too painful.”

        “Err – I’ve made an informed decision not to screen.”

        “You must pick A, B or C.

        “I don’t want a smear test.”

        “I’ll put you down as A, – thanks for your time.”

      • Mint: Pronouncing limitations doesn’t alter situations. They’re trying to make it be that way by acting in a manner congruent with that situation (or, rather, be believed that this is the case). The presentation is that if there were no other reasons, there wouldn’t be any others offered in the selection. If they’re not wrong, that’s the way it is- and telling that they’re wrong is usually rejected fervently (I think it’s an identity-based assessment- like thinking whatever a priest does isn’t wrong or that a judge never lies).

  15. And this text further on:
    10.2 Exception Reporting
    The NHS England screening team has seen an increase in the number of signed disclaimers
    from women opting out of the cervical screening programme. Practices should be reminded
    that the disclaimers (appendix 5) should only be used if a woman is making an informed choice,
    usually following counselling, that they do not wish to attend for cervical screening ever in the
    future. When a lady is ceased as ‘woman’s choice’ the call/recall system does not issue any
    further invitations. It is not the intention that women who are exception reported are asked to
    sign a disclaimer withdrawing them completely from the programme.
    This has been the subject of national debate and the national cervical screening programme,
    which the BMA have reviewed and agreed to, has issued the following guidance on exception
    reporting in relation to cervical screening.

    • Talking legalities, there is a process called “cease and desist ” where the injured individual writes to their tormentor telling them to cease and desist from the behaviour and to take note of this legal warning or it will become a court matter. I believe offenders can face a hefty fine. Template letters can be downloadeded from the Internet. It might throw a spanner (or speculum)! In their works and make them think twice before annoying that particular woman again!

      • I’m. Thinking cease and desist could be used if an opted out woman still receives “invitations, “and ” moves through the screening cycle “. Or if she isn’t allowed to opt out or doesn’t want the counselling session. As to the attack on older women can’t see it going far. We’re far more likely to tell them to take a running jump. The threat of withholding contraception is less likely to bother us…

      • If this crops up on newspaper forums, I will be proclaiming (as loudly) as possible that when wanting to opt out of screening, to use the following words: “I have made an INFORMED decision NOT to screen. I will NOT provide any written, verbal or implied consent to undergo cervical screening and demand that all letters requiring me to participate cease immediately”. Brief and very assertive is the only language that they understand.

        How can they require someone to undergo counselling? It is a waste of someone’s time if they have decided to refuse screening. It requires individuals to book time off work or take precious annual leave for it!!

        Despite being “legal”, it flies in the face of the legal principles of consent. Every competent adult has the legal right to refuse medical treatment for any reason. The “counselling” requirement is very dangerous. They probably wouldn’t offer you counselling for declining a potentially life-saving operation, yet it is “required” to opt-out of harassment letters? Pfffttt! What happened to this “screening is a choice”. They are contradicting themselves!

        This is designed with the knowledge that only the most knowledgeable and determined of women (such as ourselves) wriggle out of screening!

        I suppose the only positive that can be gleaned from this is that opting out will be permanent (rather than for a few years) and as annoying as these letters are, they cannot force women to screen if they are resolute enough to refuse screening (which a sizeable growing number are). Let’s keep up the good work – ie. raising awareness of informed choices and the limitations of screening. They are doing this because they feel threatened. We’re not far from dropping below that 70% threshhold now!!

  16. Hello, all. Just read something from a book (a rather unrelated one) & thought I’d mention it:

    “The oldest author wishes to express an observation supported by occupational experience, specialized training, and study in several colleges and universities. Readers are free to agree or disagree with him. Excelling in the clandestine arts requires undistorted reasoning and unpolluted self-awareness. Unfortunately, today there is a sweeping concern for so-called “political correctness.” He believes politically correct thinking & self-awareness are incompatible states of being; the two cannot exist together. Incompatibility exists because politically correct thinking requires a departure from truthfulness and dismissal of sound logic, which leads to confusion and failure to attain self-awareness. In addition, political correctness validates some classes of people while diminishing and villainizing others; it grants freedom of expression to those with itemized views and silences everyone else. Indeed, expressing politically incorrect views has resulted in persecution by the media and the destruction of careers. Contrary to what many people proclaim, recognizing reality and declaring it, expressing controversial views, and remaining true to one’s beliefs are not bad things, even if some people may find truth and alternative views displeasing and as a result, they passionately reject people’s right to express views that are different from their own. Chillingly, in American colleges and universities, too often, political correctness prevents meaningful exploration of important social issues, which raises the question of where education ends, and where indoctrination begins. Too often, the institutions of higher learning that should be encouraging the free exchange of ideas, which is essential to academic and intellectual growth, are suppressing it. They disallow rather than affirm diversity. Contemplate this footnote in the light of statements made by two extraordinary people. Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) said, “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” American author, lecturer, and social activist Helen Keller (1880-1968) said, “The rank of education is tolerance.”

    This was actually in the book Undercover Disguise Methods for Investigators: Quick Change Techniques for Both Men and Women (page 15). I was just reading some of the sample on Amazon & thought this was totally pertinent to the kinds of discussions we have on here. Indoctrination vs education & not being able to call things for what it is because people flip out on you- things like that.

    • I hate to say it, but maybe if some people just overtly forced these things on the people pushing them. I know it’s not EXACTLY the same thing, but literally slamming them down & force-fingering them and/or jamming a (whatever device) in them might very well get them to thinking twice about trying to push people around on this level. If nothing else, it would likely be very shocking & probably a bit demonstrative at the same time. Someone says “Oh, my God!” or “That’s horrible!” or whatever they say & then they themselves or someone else says “Well, those people tried to do the same thing to them” or “Well, I guess they were tired of getting harassed about this.”

      I realize this might sound a bit free-handed about doing something pretty damn severe, but then they are doing something pretty damn severe. The concept that altruism doesn’t produce ownership is either totally foreign to them or they only pretend that they want to help, using someone else’s conscience as their shield.

      • Unfortunately, if a patient were to do that to a caregiver, it would be seen as an assault on a caregiver. Even if it’s pointed out that this caregiver was doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING to them, it would not be perceived that way by any jury. People will see the caregiver as having been assaulted by a violent, probably-mentally-ill patient when they were “just trying to help” and “protect their health”. The patient would be convicted of an aggravated sexual assault, whereas the exact same thing is “necessary medical care” if forced ON the patient.

        Brainwashing has been very effective.

      • Well, yes, I know- but I was talking more about anonymous attack with a reason given than someone that’s in the doctor’s office going after them for getting pushy. In the case of one of my cousins, she went to the hospital as a little kid to get stitches on her face (she fell at the store) & they made her take her clothes off- supposedly to see if she had bruises from getting hit at home. Now, this is a case of the treatment being more traumatic than the issue at hand. Supposing my uncle or aunt were “playing doctor” at home? What tests do they do now?

        In that case, I’m actually a bit surprised that my uncle didn’t do something along those lines to that woman (whatever she was). I know this might not come off right, but if he grabbed her, beat her, knocked her out, or killed her that would get back to someone & there was probably some kind of identification involved that would trace to them. Doing something else, maybe it doesn’t get mentioned. They might not even want to get into it, never mind have a lawyer dissect their life or get locked-up if the ruling isn’t in their favor (false claims & such). Pernicious & exactly what they do. It seems that not many people take them to court over medical assaults or even to force a change in coercive terms (ex: giving them birth control without any probing).

        I’m not saying it should be a GENERAL response to someone pissing someone else off, but if someone is dishing this out in instigation (just like in the Middle East where they’ll force-finger women at protests & even “virginity check” the men- something that was, surprisingly, called for what it is)- then I feel it applies. These people “taking the snake road” & imposing things of this nature subtlely doesn’t mean that they somehow do something without doing it. If I were to shoot someone & I used a silencer on the gun when I did it, did I shoot them any less than if I used an unsilenced weapon? Of course not.

        Just to make sure it doesn’t come off like I slipped a gear or anything, I’m just saying that reciprocation (whether subtle or overt) is potentially a useful strategy to shut things down.

      • Unfortunately, if retaliations like that were to occur, those taking retribution for what these people have done to them or their loved ones would be written-off in the public minds as the acts of insane people, or people who were part of some sort of a radicalized faction of something. While it might make someone feel better about the acts of THAT person, it would not get through the heads of average people that these are absurd and abusive to them or their families when they come in as patients. If it were to be happening at any frequency, it would soon get groups such as this one who are against people taking inappropriate liberties just because they have some medical certification to be written off as a bunch of radical nuts – giving our soft-spoken, “just out for your own benefit” attackers more ammunition.

        The way to handle this is for more people to see iatrogenic attacks for what they are – ATTACKS. It doesn’t matter if some creepy guy in an alley forces you to let him finger your (whatever), or if it’s a clean guy in a white uniform who forces you to let him finger your (whatever). The action is the same. You did not consent to it. It won’t be until the average person sees this as an attack – by ANYBODY – when it’s nonconsensual.

        It seems they’ve even muddied the waters about what “consent” is.

        In the middle east, it’s easier for people to see this as assault, especially on women, since women cannot give their consent to intimate contact with ANYONE. She is owned, and her owners (husband or father) is justified under their laws and societal norms to take action.

        IN the west, even a woman who didn’t want it, or didn’t like it, will tell herself “I consented to that”, combined with “it was for my own good”. It’s been shown over and over in study after study that the more gentle the attack, the more harm it does to the person’s sense of self long-term.

      • That’s very insightful. I didn’t think of that about the middle east. I know there’s a lot of counterphobic responses to things like this, but one would think they’d try to make it more difficult for this to happen again- to them or to someone else.

        I was just thinking about how they, theoretically, might amputate some part of a person’s body against their wishes (like if a bone is broken in numerous places, I’m not sure about it). Imagine if someone says “Just try to keep it together & see what happens” & they say “No,” then cut that person’s leg off- which might have gotten better, even if it required means that are outside of their profession (comfrey, for instance- not something they likely even say would help). This is totally monstrous & totally plausible- this country is so bureaucratically insane & so dictatorial while being more or less blind to any kind of non-cliche attack. They truly don’t go by dynamics, which is exactly what a person is dealing with in life.

        Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. I still think they more or less need to be conquered, since they act like dictators themselves & pose a major menace to the public- given their ability to apply influence on people. I just don’t see that happening in America- so fanatical about freedom that they’ll give theirs away to someone else & never “bully” an instigator, no matter what their methods.

  18. What’s next? Temporarily sectioning every woman with a cervix and subjecting her to forced hypnosis.. I love my smear test I will attend every smear test and beg for additional ones??!

    • That seems more & more frequently to be the idea behind advertising- to basically hack or override the mind. Like the idea of picking a lock. And hi-jacking the person. Much like the concept of demonic possession.

  19. Just was reading something (it was the Psychology of Lex Luthor at reelrundown.com, random curiosity). This concept of a Disingenuous Histrionic, Unprincipled Narcissist, and so on seems to VERY much hit the nail on the head with a lot of medical personnel. The dictatorial nerd concept is pretty immediate & the whole concept of being seen as a genius by people they consider idiots/inferiors (which can’t be trusted, due to being idiots/inferiors- so their impression of themselves is based on a foundation of bullshit & that’s something they weren’t smart enough to figure out on their own, interestingly enough).

  20. Hi Sue,
    Is there anything wrong with the site?
    I can’t delete incoming emails on my phone. As soon as I delete and empty the trash, they appear back in my Inbox again.
    It is only emails from this site.

    • Hi Ada,
      I have not heard of that issue but it sounds annoying. There are glitches on WP from time to time. If it keeps happening you could stop following comments in hopes it resolves, and in the meantime I will keep looking into it.
      Thanks for letting me know.
      Sue

  21. Hi all 🙂 hope everyone is well! I thought after we hear about so many bad things that it might be nice to share a good experience and maybe cheer everyone up….so I’m extremely happy to say that as long as I keep my current Dr (wouldn’t trade him for anything) I am now officially FREE from pap pressures!!

    I have a minor yet persistent case of tinnea versicolor that tends to flare in the warmer months and I needed a refill of ointment to clear it up so I made a Drs apt today. Now that I’m over 25 the inevitable “when was your last pap?” came from the nurse. I replied “Never had one. Never will. I’ve made an informed decision to opt out. Pease move on to your next question” The look on her face was priceless, she was floored and I expected an argument but she simply mumbled “uh ok, we’ll leave that blank for now.” and proceeded with the rest.

    She must have said something because after my Dr. came in, looked at my skin and refilled the script he asked about it. I reiterated my stance and asked if there was anything I could fill out to make it official. He kind of raised his eyebrow and said “Can I ask what lead you to this decision?”

    I knew it was more curiosity than anything, and I wasn’t worried. He is afterall the man who cared for me when I had several bouts of severe strep in my teens and always gave me adequate pain meds so I wouldn’t suffer, he is the one who fought with the ENT to see me immediately that same day when I had cellulitis and a tonsil abscess, the one who sympathetically patted me on the back and crushed up a percocet when I was in agonizing pain but couldn’t swallow pills . he was also the one who was miffed at the crummy ER doc who allowed me to walk out delaying my treatment for a bladder infection all because I refused a pelvic exam. This man has earned my trust.

    So I told him everything: how eric and I were virgins/faithful how I was vaccinated, how I don’t smoke rarely drink and have no underlying health issues that would make me susceptible to CC. I explained to him how my chances of getting CC are roughly 1 in 900,000 (according to stats gleaned from CDC/ info provided on this site) and how I had done my research. I also explained the emotional aspect of it and how it would probably be a traumatic ordeal and put my mental health at risk.

    He simply nodded and said “Well that sounds reasonable. I’m glad you’re being proactive and reviewing the facts. I only wish more young people would take charge of their health. Just let me know if anything changes so we can take care of it sooner instead of later. I know you hate the idea but please don’t avoid it out of fear if something comes up and you need my help.” He then went over some red flag symptoms of common problems (not all of them reproductive related) that I should look out for. I promised him I would and he said he would mark my file as an opt out so I wouldn’t be asked again.

    Then he said “Oh by the way I’m speaking at a bioethics seminar this fall.” (he seemed quite excited/proud of himself) ” I’d love to use you as an example in my piece on preventative health screenings. Is that okay?” I had a good chuckle and told him of course he could. Although there was a lot of time spent on the subject at least he addressed my real concern first and made sure I was taken care of. He supported my decision and I didn’t feel like he was judging me or arguing. At least something good came out of it and now he has some thought provoking material for his upcoming seminar haha.

    Although there can be some pretty awful Drs out there and I’m the first one to be suspicious and distrustful there are some very compassionate, sensitive, humble male Drs as well. I am extremely relieved that I will not be subjected to the standard pap crap under his care. I’ve always believed that even the smallest victories should be celebrated. Thanks again to everyone here who helped me become well informed and gave me the courage to stand up for myself ❤ .For anyone *cough* LIZ *cough, cough* who might wonder if their tireless efforts have made any real difference I am the living breathing eternally grateful proof! The changes may come slowly but thanks to people like yourselves and the ethical caring Drs there may yet be hope.

    • Hi Emily. Thats great. Sounds like an understanding doctor. I love hearing positive stuff like this. Its just brill. Real progress. X

    • Hi Emily,
      Well done, but it irks me that we have to disclose such personal information simply to have our legal right accepted…a simple “NO” should be enough. Like you, I chose to be frank with my doctor, simply to reassure her I knew what I was doing. The system is so dysfunctional/abusive and women are treated so badly, many doctors are reluctant to accept a simple “No” fearing you might sue them if you get cervical cancer.

      We’re not respected/trusted to make our own decisions even though we make decisions every day and accept the consequences of those decisions. (like men)
      It’s a fall back to paternalistic thinking, women are incapable of making their own decisions, doctors knows best etc.
      I think more doctors are getting a “NO” these days (about time!) and more women are shopping around until they find someone who’ll accept the NO. This is something new, for many years women either had the test, apologized, put themselves down etc. when confronted about their non-screening status or being “overdue” or they avoided doctors. So it’s a big step forward when we can see a doctor and openly and confidently decline the test.
      I don’t regret the decision to be frank with my doctor, the subject is firmly closed, end of story, so it was worth it. I can certainly understand why some women choose not to justify their decision, why should we?
      We SHOULD have the right to just say No to elective testing…hopefully, that day is not too far away.
      I do know a woman who just said NO…and her doctor and the surgery feel the need to “review” her decision every year or so.

      • I just wanted to add that hopefully he will share to other doctors out there thst this screening is not acceptable to sll eoman and not sll woman whould beinfiet from it. Im glad to hear. I only with thst brsinwashed nurse whould have shut her mouth and listen to me instead of being a know it all and disrespectful to my refusel.

    • I’m very happy for you Emily! 🙂 It is very nice to hear that there is a caring, respecting and understanding doctor, somewhere.
      Though, most of us are yet to meet one. Also, I would definitely be very uncomfortable with telling a stranger (with medical degree, but nonetheless a stranger) so much about my personal life. I would prefer them to accept my simple “no”. They can advise me on the symptoms to be aware of, but I’m not prepared to tell them about my private life in details. I might have been more open to the idea decades ago, when everything I say was strictly between me and the doctor. But these days of online medical information exchange, eHelath systems and government surveillance through Medicare and cancer screening programmes, we never know where our personal information ends up and how it may be used in the future. At least in Australia, every new government keeps inventing new ways of invading people’s privacy.

    • That’s good to hear. I’m a little surprised he didn’t mention these things himself & tell the nurse not to bring it up. I mean, they wouldn’t ask a guy: “When was your last leeching?” That’s something that may or may not have health-bolstering properties in some cases that was based on what seems to be at least partially untrue data that might very well have been swayed by the psychology of the time.

      If I’ve had a part in you being well-informed & courageous enough to stand up for yourself, you’re welcome!

    • She probably never had a woman stand firm or flat out refuse the screening like that. Doesnt it seem annoying that they as for a date pf last pap smear. When who said you agreed to one that implys its it was expected of you. We get thst same q over hear after are screening age. Ot erks me to mo end.

  22. Hello, all. Was thinking about something recently & figured I’d bring it up. There’s a book called Bureaucratic Insanity that I just read & in it, there was reference on people being sadistic in a more “professional” way. I notice that a lot of people don’t bash into someone’s house & “play doctor” at gunpoint, so it’s not as readily identifiable when things get imposed in other settings.

    I figure this theme connects in some ways (some of which weren’t exactly referenced in the book- he seemed to talk more about the environment of that person’s job driving them to lash out, much like if they grew up in a controlling house or lived in a dictatorial environment like prison). These people, despite all the talk of money, seem to be motivated by intangibles- perviness, sadism, narcissistic supply, being dictatorial, assorted “mommy issues,” etc… .

    There’s usually some talk about “self-defense” on their part, as well- things like how “they’d get sued” if they didn’t impose various things on someone (by that person, despite THEIR refusal of the situation- not all that plausible, but that kind of reaction to an affront is). Immediately, there’s the potential for someone to reflexively support self-defense & that works as a facilitator for them- especially since it might come off as a “non-starter” to suggest anything that goes against that. Someone that’s 100% self-supporting of whatever they’re trying to do can be a daunting obstacle, even for someone that knows they’re right & doesn’t want whatever it is to happen.

    There are some inconsistencies with the concept of “self-defense” in a lot of these cases, though. For example:
    Wouldn’t they be more worried about the harm they do that patient than whether or not they’re going to get randomly sued? Which is a risk for everyone all the time? Which is something that, theoretically, would be shot down if it was an unfair suit? Which their organization can likely afford very easily? If it can’t, isn’t it more prudent to NOT do something that will generate a lawsuit- like attacking someone in some way, including an iatrogenic one? That’s just good risk management.

    Same for private practice. If their insurance is paid up, don’t they have less to worry about? Don’t they need that insurance to practice? So it’s a case of them saying they’re worried about their money to win someone over? Kind of like a “Hearts & Minds” campaign, but appealing to that person’s sense of loss aversion & value of money/career/etc… . This tends to be what makes a lot of people in America “tick” & it would frequently work on them.

  23. Just heard of a book “The Clintons’ War on Women.” Don’t know if it’s any good, but she seems like the type that would get “territorial” with women.

  24. Im scared. This is tmi and im just asking if anyone has advice. I used a tampon and went to the pull i kerp diving snd when i went home to remove to tampon the string is deep inside me i tried to gidh gor it but i cant find it. Im scared i font want to have to ho to the er. If theres Any advice please help. Sorry for the tmi.

  25. Hi. The tampon will be pushed down to a point you can reach as your bodys natural rythyms will do that. Dont panic as most women have this at sone point. I wouldn’t be surprused if it was already out. Donlt bother going seeing a doc about it.

  26. Lindas right and I read if you squat and push down your sometimes able to get it without the string. I think it’s only if you get foul odour or fever it’s toxic shock and medical room time x

  27. Thank yall. I was able to get a pece of the shreaded string and pull it out. It did hurt tmi. Thanks for the help.

  28. Hello all! Hope you’ve been doing well. I just needed to get a few things off my chest and I know this is a safe place to do so. Over the past few years, my anxiety regarding invasive exams has dropped to essentially non-existent. I’ve taken control and realized that it’s still up to me to give my consent. I’ve read the facts and made informed decisions. However, this evening I was watching a YouTube video from one of my favorite you tubers and she discussed getting the test done. For some reason, I felt really anxious. Then, upon reading the comments, there were awful heartbreaking stories from people who lost their loved ones to CC (most had never been tested/had not tested in a long time, according to the comments). I’m not doubting those comments nor am I going to claim they were all true, but they were terribly heartbreaking and I feel for anyone who’s lost a loved one. For a long while, I’ve been able to stand strong, but now I just feel anxious again as though I’m either going to have to submit or die. Does anyone else have bouts of anxiety like this when they see/hear/read something regarding women’s “health care”? How do you combat it?
    Another thing that is really aggravating me now that I’ve had this on my mind for about an hour, I remembered there was a young man on a talk show a few years back. He’d invented a blood test that could detect most, if not all, cancers with near perfect accuracy. He had studies and evidence to back it up. My understanding was that it was almost similar to a pregnancy test. If something showed up, you could test a few more times and then see where the results led. I wonder what ever happened. I figure some nice looking business person probably told him they wanted to buy his product for a large sum of money and sell the product to medical professionals to help as many people as possible. This is a bit of a jumbled rant but I really just needed to vent about this as it’s bothering me at the moment.

    • thanks for your share yes its sad some die from these diseases. I don’t if they got tested if the out come would be different. Would they go through more test and procedures for nothing.
      I am afraid of invasive tests. With so any test being taken at the time, i question how accurate are the results.
      I go to the lad for thyroid blood work. The lab does so much testing that i’m sure there are many inaccurate results.
      Te anxiety and panic the test would case me are more than the slight change i ave he disease. I have basic blood work once a yr. The results are fine. I don’t feel a need for further testing.
      I believe hey create fear like you are experiencing to suck you into testing.

    • Hey, Ro. Let me tell you something: You can actually die of a broken arm & not from the bone going through an artery or something like that, but from the pain- specifically, from the FOCUS on the pain being so mind-filling that it amplifies things to the point where someone can have a heart attack. It’s kind of “undiluted.”

      The same thing happens with fear. Actually, that’s something of a sales tactic: make an “alert” & then make a “sale” when someone’s in that state. Limited time offers are kind of like that, because someone’s afraid of losing that opportunity- loss aversion is a pretty serious thing for a lot of people & trying to predict the future is generally a fruitless endeavor (so they are more or less in a state like when someone hears a noise in their house during a blackout- if someone were to sell them a flashlight at that point…).

      I’ve got to remind you that chicks usually live longer than men & DO die eventually, anyway. It should be without other people deciding what goes where while they’re alive. Ultimately, this is a penetrative situation that doesn’t work as advertised for something massively rare to begin with being sold by a for-profit institution that doesn’t generally have much self-criticism or believe that other people’s decisions equal or outmatch their own- even when it’s deciding what is or is not done to their own body.

    • You know what? I just remembered this thing I was about to buy on fear (it can be DVD or download- I’ve never had problems from these people & I bought about 20 different things from them).

      It’s called “Breathing and Fear” at russianmartialart.com & it’s $10 for the download ($30 for the DVD). I don’t have it in my hands yet, but most things from them are good (honestly, some of them have a lot of information & some don’t- the information’s always good, though). It IS usually a long wait for me to get things in the mail, even though I live in New York & it’s close to where they are. Might be good to give that a try.

      There’s other things from them on using breathing & other things to counter fear without getting yourself all cranked-up & reckless (most things out there seem to be almost throwing yourself into a kind of frenzy & heedlessly launching yourself into whatever it is- even if it’s not a good idea & doing this defeats the purpose).

    • Hi Ro.
      I take little notice of comments such as those – we know how militant some pro-screeners can be and it wouldn’t surprise me if some of those stories were fake.
      Plus, we know how common false-negatives are, yet we very rarely hear about the women who get the disease despite regular screening, do we? When have you ever seen a post where someone states that their loved one had twenty years of pap tests and died from the disease anyway? It never ceases to astound me how so many people are convinced that ‘if only’ the person they claim to hold so dear had had regular screening, all would have been well, when we know that the false-negative rate is so high.

      It’s almost like there’s some conspiracy afoot to hold back the march of progress and keep this awful testing going for as long as possible. When you think of the huge industry that ‘women’s health’ has generated, and how many jobs are dependant on the surveillance of the female body, it’s hardly surprising that there is so much scaremongering out there.

      Btw, my best friends mum passed away a few weeks ago after a massive heart attack at the age of 62. She’d been unwell for a few days and was in terrible pain that morning, yet when her hubby called the GP they told her to take some painkillers and they’d try to make a home visit in the afternoon. She was dead within the hour.
      So, excuse me when I snort in derision when I hear about the programme ‘saving lives’, because the reality is that while they’re busy pumping huge amounts of precious NHS resources into searching for a rare disease, people who are genuinely ill are dying through lack of care.

      • After being more informed about pap smears, I have noticed alot of people mistake other womans cancers for cc and some also think that a pap smear tests for other cancers and stds. Alot of people are misinformed.

  29. Hi Ro, I get this every so often too……..that feeling of……..What If!!
    My way out of this feeling is to remember that I have no symptoms, cc is still rare & always was rare, that thousands of women each year are treated for nothing, nothing at all & endure the various painful procedures, that HPV is so common & most rid themselves of this…………am I prepared for any of the follow ups or the additional fear/anxiety this brings, afraid of the pain & embarrassment, and all this private information on a register that so many have access to, the surveillance and tracking, being labelled as diseased simply because I’m a woman! Angry, confused, emotional and so on. The lack of real information from the NHS screening services, the attitudes of “you must, it’s something all women have to do”……………..Well I don’t have to, we don’t have to. It is time to start trusting your body and your mind and remember most abnormal cells are simply that, cells have changed slightly, you and your body doing what it does naturally, could be close to that time of month, menopause, hormonal imbalance, ovulation, harmless changes. They still do not know which abnormal cell will turn to cancer and which will not, and most do not! From the “claimed 5000 lives saved” each year, how many are really saved 5,10,50,100,1000? We will never know for sure and fear/coercion is how they trap you onto this Happy Pappy Train Crap! I simply will not let them near me and my internal organs, because….What if…..What if I am being treated purely out of precaution, based on a very slim maybe!
    CC Risk 0.65% = 99.35% of absolutely nothing wrong at all, 99.35% are excellent odds don’t you think? Take everyone.

  31. Stay away from gynaecologists. 90% of all their procedures are unnecessary, especially hysterectomies, and one of the dirty tricks they use is to deliberately fabricate you have cancer. These medical rogues do far more harm than good…

  32. (For Emily or Anyone That Can Remember): I was trying to find the post where you suggested a place in Maine to me a while back, but I couldn’t find it & couldn’t remember.

    I still think on & off of going to Maine, maybe instead of Europe. Especially considering that money’s a bit tight for me right now & traveling from New York to Maine would be massively cheaper, as well as being possible by land (I don’t tend toward flying & transatlantic cruises can be expensive). Is Maine expensive?

    I guess I could just pick a spot & land there, but I figured if I go to Maine, I’d try out that town you mentioned first.

    • Funny, funny, funny. You just replied to my comment on another article and I happen to be from and live in Maine. Is Maine expensive? Probably no more so than anywhere else, but also depends on where you go and what you want to do. How long are thinking about visiting? A week or two?

      • Well, I’m not really sure. Honestly, I’m looking for a new place to live. I figured I’d, theoretically, stay up there & just kind of build from wherever I landed. Not just leaping into building a house & such, but kind of roaming around & living cheap without eating out of the dumpster.

        Don’t know if I would do it, even though MAINE sounds very good- America’s bullshit just bothers me & I have a hard time thinking about the future going well here. That said, I like the general style of things in Maine (ex: lots of wilderness, loose gun & knife laws, independent/DIY people that don’t seem to try to push everyone else around, etc…). Just wish it was where a Maine-sized chunk of coastal Poland is!

      • I realize I didn’t quite answer your question- sorry about that! I figure I’d probably go for a couple of months, at least. I’d like to do a lot of outdoors stuff, likely staying out there for a long while(s).

        I guess I could theoretically do the same thing in Maine that I was planning on doing in Europe: start of with manual labor, then maybe something with tourism, then eventually becoming something of a self-reliance instructor (like Dave Canterbury, to give an impression of the idea- doesn’t have to be a job, though).

        Part of what I’m thinking about is that I don’t know how things are going to go with VISAs overseas & I don’t know how much it’s a point- being a college professor without a work VISA seems like it’d be a problem, but I doubt they’re going to be so hair-splitting that they flip out over me teaching someone a bit of English on their lunch break for cash or doing some construction off the books. In Maine, I don’t need all kinds of papers & everyone speaks the same language that I do.

      • Yay another mainah! great to meet you Amy! 😀 Hi again Alex…I suggested Farmington for you because it’s a college town full of younger liberal type people. But if you want wilderness it’s not too far off…just head towards Weld/ Rangeley. If youre thinking of staying long term or relocating then the biggest thing youd struggle with is work…theres not a lot for work around here and it can be pretty hard to find a decent job. It’s a little easier during summer with tourists and things like construction and landscaping…but still I think youd fit in with us maineiacs. If you dont have a car then getting here from NY could be relatively easy and cheap if you don’t mind taking the train. sorry everyone for being off topic lol 😉 hope you are all well

  33. Words can’t even describe how I feel about a doctor wanting to rape me and them thinking it is normal. I get my birth control every year from planned parenthood and i am constantly bombarded by “WHEN DID YOU GET YOUR LAST WELL WOMAN EXAM!!!!!” I try explaining that I refuse to and that didn’t work. I feel so ashamed for saying this but I have actually resorted to telling them I was raped by a doctor and refuse to let it happen again, just so they shut up.

    I want kids really bad but I don’t want to go to an OBGYN. I don’t want any god damn exams that involve me having spread my legs. Even in birth I know what I want, I want a water birth. I’m just so afraid at once point Ill be forced into something that will leave me traumatized!

    Ive lost my sex drive because of my hatred and anger and fear towards this common medical practice. I can no longer feel comfortabl having sex because that is all I think about. I think of being violated by someone other than my fiance.

    I sit here right now bawling my eyes out over this. I have to lie and say ive been raped by a doctor in order for people to get off my case, that is so wrong that I have to resort to that!! I have to sit here and listen to lies and propaganda and I feel like I am so alone. I have no one to talke to about this. Even the therapist I went to said “it is something every woman goes through”. My sessions ended then. It is like I can’t have a conversation without anyone telling me I am wrong and to trust my doctors. I don’t. Ive been over dosed by doctors 4 times, had a wrong plate and pins put in my leg, had a 300 pound nurse sit on me to take blood, was doped on ketamine on “accident” to pull a tooth and hallucinated for 18 hours at the age of 5! And to top it off I am deathly allergic to my vaccinations and in light of this anto vax movement I was given mine when I went to the hospital for a burn after telling them numerous times I had an allergy and instead of walking out a few hours later with bandages for my burns, I had to stay another 2 weeks going in and out of consciousness because of my allergic reaction to my vaccinations. HOW CAN I TRUST A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE VIOLATED ME MY ENTIRED LIFE!

    • thanks for your share i so relate. I have had bad dr experiences too. I am small never coud tolerate a pap test. I tried for many to find out why i am so tight. All i got was wad you need an exam failed exams ( which i had to pay for, no help). I finally said i will not be violated anymore.
      I have had bad experiences with office staff myself! i don’t trust dr’s , its my body i decide what is done to it!
      i have lied about having pap test, also said i’ve been traumatized. They never seem to hear that.
      i have suffered alone with this for yrs.
      You are not alone here thanks for sharing

  34. Hi Jay
    Welcome! You are not alone. Many women, myself included, feel the same way you do about this coercion to have pap smears (and mammograms, if you’re old enough) and even avoid medical care completely because of it. Please don’t feel ashamed of having to make up a story to avoid these exams. Put the shame where it belongs, on a system that pushes women into these vile and degrading procedures and overlooks informed consent. Some regular posters have had success ordering birth control pills on-line, perhaps they could chime in.

    • I recently found out that in my state (CA) you can order pills through the planned parenthood app! It is great! I feel very at home on this website but sometimes when I venture out it is like I am running blindfolded into a cactus patch trying to avoid all this crap. I never thought I’d be one of those people that would want a “safe space” but I do, and this site is my safe space!

  35. On the news this am ( in us) they were saying less cervical cancer do to pap test. It was just another way to suck women into pap test. Insurance co, drs, labs, all make money on testing.
    There is no concern no how this affects patients. US medical system is about pure profit!
    Dr’s visits, tests and of course big PHARAMA! 90% of drugs used are in the us.
    Get you on a med , so you have to come back for referrals, go to lab , come back etc.
    You walk into a Dr’s office and the ” bull dog” at a front wants insurance card and payment!
    Its just a factory ( form of human trafficking)!
    i live in Florida , drs take advantage of older people, and their insurance.
    GYN’S are legal pimps as far as i am concerned!

    • (moderated)It was discussed in detail on one of our sites that the stats you ramrod us with are skewed. Radically skewed. Every abnormal pap scrape (which is itself 53% accurate-so please tell me how that in itself is an accepted norm? Eh? Only good when bullying women into the stirrups) is regarded as cervical cancer. Every time an “abnormal” or CC resolves, however it resolves, is scored as a “cure” of CC.
      For Jay: Try buying birth control from CA where it has gone OTC. Or, better yet, do online shopping at a Mexican pharmacy. There birth control is OTC and very easy to obtain.
      I’m sorry you have lost your sex life. There’s a lady in Australia (Elizabeth) who has put the rhythm system to very good use. As for birthing? Find out as much info before you decide to get pregnant. You have more bargaining power when you aren’t already a hostage.

      • Hi Cat and Mouse,

        I used the Billings Method, hard work initially, second nature after a few years. It’s not for everyone, but if you’re committed to the method and don’t break the rules, it can work very well indeed.
        The Rhythm Method is a bit different, it requires you to track your menstrual history to predict your fertile days, the Billings Method requires you to watch for changes that signal you’re moving into a fertile phase of the month – after a few months, I found it quite easy to pick up the changes – fertile, infertile.
        Initially, you allow a wide margin for error, but as your confidence grows, you can narrow that margin…we were always careful, we didn’t want an unplanned pregnancy.

        Of course, I was forced to look for something I could handle because at that time (in about 1980) the Pill was locked behind a medical wall – routine pelvic and breast exams (sometimes a recto-vaginal exam, why not?) and pap tests were “required” and if you refused, NO pills for you! I wasn’t prepared to go there, especially when I knew the exams and test were not clinical requirements for the Pill.

        Funny…when it was possible to get the Pill online or overseas, I decided not to use it, I was so used to my body telling me it was fertile or infertile, I felt so in control. I wouldn’t have felt as safe on the Pill.
        So pleased I found the Billings Method (it also, gave me a deep understanding, connection, and respect for my body)…even so, I still resented the barriers placed around the Pill.

      • Elizabeth: What surprised me so much re rhythm method, is a friend of ours says she ovulated on day 4 of her period. Everything I was taught claimed ovulation during period…out bodies would not do it b/c there was no lining to accept fertilized egg. They also told us, before they learned this, was during long ago period sex they conceived their daughter. Have you noticed anything like this re your own cycle? Our friends know exactly, as you do, which days she’s fertile. They joked about using rubbers during those times because each was so driven to copulate. They also talked about being able to feel her cervix and that it was open.
        Jay: I previously read on one of these sites that PP will advance 3 months of The Pill only then to require you to have Pap Scrape.
        Should you still go through them, insist on these alternatives. Each major laboratory (Quest, etc) offers an HPV blood test. I have not called to verify accuracy etc. Trovagene which I previously used has been d/c due to “lack of interest.” It was never advertised and when I offered to do it as part of a tv news story they never replied. Far as I’m concerned it was deliberately left to rot on the vine. As in CA we have earthquakes, imagine every male gyn penis like a seismograph, shaking violently side to side, as if yelling “NO!”
        Moderator. I do not understand why my posts are being moderated so much. I’ve read plenty of four-letter words on these sites. I’ve also used them, and with few exceptions my usage (sometimes even abbreviated) was moderated. I’ve seen as many other posts, with four-letter words, swearing, anger and/or emotions being directed at another named party. It’s easy to find examples. These are not moderated.
        What you did this time was to delete the name of the person I replied to. His post implied we were too stupid to believe Big Brother’s stats and to reject offered care which (he felt) was for our own good. What I wrote contained nothing offensive.

  36. Cat&Mouse, in response to your question re moderated posts, the person you were replying to was Chas UK. You mistakenly assumed that Chas was a male, and also that Chas was citing stats that were skewed. I fail to understand how you came to these conclusions.

    Chas UK is a long time, very valued poster on this site. The stats she was citing are directly from the BMJ, rapid response section. The stats support our cause, they do not as you stated “ramrod” us in any way. I moderated out her name in your post due to some misunderstandings on your part.

    I no longer moderate out four letter words, but I do try to moderate inflammatory posts – especially if they are directed at the women on this site.
    Sue

    • Sue, I think there are some crossed wires here. Some time during the last week there was a post from a halfwit calling themselves ‘Dr. Real’ and it sounds like this is the person that Cat&Mouse was responding to, not Chas.

      • Hi Kate, thanks for your comment. Dr Real commented on a different post (What drs don’t want you to know) and not really clear, but yes it could have been meant for Dr. Real. I appreciate you noting the post and offering support in clarifying here.
        Sue 🙂

  37. I’ve been keeping an eye on e cervical screen1 site. Home to GPS raising the bar where they have smear test details on the screen in front of them? Well they have a piece by Dr Karen Morton who apparently does a lot of TV appearances as well as being aGP. She notes smears can be an unpleasant thing to think about and her advice is to keep calm and have your smear test! I mean how patronizing is that and takes no account of how traumatic some women find it!!

    • Sites like that have a hell of a nerve claiming they’re trying to ‘inform’ and ‘educate’ the public. They should just be honest and call themselves ‘smear test appreciation societies’ because all they really are.

    • That’s the attitude that’s been in place from the start, congratulate women who have smears according to the program, they’re being responsible and mature, and scold and judge “non-screeners” – also, the patronising, “it doesn’t hurt”…”your health is more important than a moment of embarrassment/discomfort” etc.
      It’s all so far away from informed consent, and even consent itself was often missing…just disgraceful.

  38. I know it’s sick. Keep calm and have your smeartests when the self testing is out there and might persuade more to screen. There’s an àcknowlegment now it can be painful but like you said Elizabeth “it’s for own good all part of being a woman. ..” BLERGH!

  39. http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/article-details/allow-women-to-attend-cervical-screenings-during-work-says-new-campaign

    I don’t like this idea at all, it’s yet another attempt to embarrass and pressure women to screen, it’s about numbers, not informed consent. I certainly don’t want to explain to my workmates or an employer why I’m not heading off for a smear test.
    It’s increasing desperation as the screening rate continues to fall, some of these vested interests might have to find another way to make a decent living.
    Bowel cancer is far more likely, but no one is suggesting we sort that test out at work or allow time for employees to test in the staff bathroom!

  40. http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2016/09/culture-rape-can-doctors.html
    It’s interesting that the medical profession can’t see or choose not to see medical coercion as part of this culture, I recall young women being forced to completely undress for routine breast and pelvic exams and a pap test just to get the Pill. I knew NONE of those things were clinical requirements for the Pill, yet this went on for decades, and it’s still happening in some countries and with some doctors.
    Doctors actually refused to hand over a script until women submitted to the exams, I always felt these “exams” amounted to assaults, was it a reward for the male doctors? (almost all doctors were male back then) Was it a punishment for women who wanted the Pill. I wasn’t sure, but I knew it was wrong…terribly wrong. I know MANY women carry trauma right through their lives as a result of medical coercion, these experiences never leave them.

  41. Hi Everyone,
    I’ve been tracking the number of comments more closely on this site for the past few days because we were nearing the grand total of 10,000 comments. Well, we’ve just reached that number – 10,000 comments ladies!! Congratulations to all you all 🙂

    I wish there was a widget that tracked comment numbers, but no there isn’t. Otherwise I’d post it on the right side bar below the hit number widget. BTW, we are slowly but surely closing in on 1 million hits!

    Something else noteworthy – our site has been cited, in a journal no less. We certainly cite journals often enough, but it’s a new experience to be cited by a journal. Check it out (bottom of page to see reference to FWEO): http://search.proquest.com/openview/161b1d8bfcd89c884e708265d29a0758/1.pdf?pq-origsite=gscholar
    Awesome, thanks Everyone 🙂

    • That is Fantastic! Reminds me of the old Blog Critics site with 10,000 comments! Who needs them when we have us. Great to see the reference on your link too, hopefully one of many to come. Thank you all for the hard work and efforts that has gone into FWEO….absolutely fabulous!

      • Thanks Chas! You were the one who swooped in to rescue the first 10,000 comments after the old blogcritics site was shut down. Those comments had built up over 8 years, an important piece of women’s history that would have been lost forever if not for you swooping in to scoop them up and seal them safely into 3 word docs. This site has accumulated 10,000 new comments over 4 years, far less time than it took for the old blogcritics site to reach the same number of comments. Proof that the number of informed women continues to increase. We’ve gotten louder and stronger 🙂

  42. Hello everyone. I’m in my 20s and started getting the ‘summons’ for NHS smear tests a few years ago. I ignored the persistent letter invitations and they eventually stopped…until this year.

    A few months ago, I started getting the letters again- almost once a week, for about a month. I ignored them until I was forced to cancel an appointment that was pre-arranged by the surgery, without my permission. The receptionist said, that because I’d ignored them, I wouldn’t be re-called again for another three years. I’ve never had a smear and I don’t intend on getting one, so I felt relieved at not being harassed…well, for at least another three years. Anyways, fast forward six months, and I’ve just got a letter inviting me for a smear, again! (Wonder if they’ve found out I’ve been lurking on this site lol!). I’m worried that the whole process is starting up again. I suspect I’ll soon get a letter telling me an appt. has already been made on my behalf, even though I didn’t want one in the first place! . How dare they take the liberty to control my life in this way without my permission?

    Why don’t they just leave us alone? I don’t get asked to have check ups for my heart, even though very close family members, on both sides of my family, have various cardio problems or have died of heart attacks. I don’t have issues ‘down there’ so why are they pestering me about that? I’ve been putting off seeing the GP for an unrelated issue because no doubt they’ll ask why I haven’t ‘submitted’, and I’ve never been very good at standing up for myself. Hate harassment and confrontation.

    • Making an appointment for you? Bloody cheek! That smacks of desperation, doesn’t it?
      They’re putting so much effort into suckering the youngest women into this awful programme, the ones who are least likely to benefit… it’s a form of grooming, IMO.
      I haven’t had a smear for 12 years now, and I get letters every six months. Patients at my surgery have to jump through burning hoops to get appointments these days, even with the practice nurses, yet they’ve always got time for their precious smears. Or anything else that comes with an incentive payment, come to think of it.
      But if you’re ill, or your head’s falling off… nope, they’ve got no time for you. No wonder A&E is swamped.
      I wouldn’t bother cancelling the appointment, I’d just ignore it. Your long-standing non-attendance should have made it perfectly clear that you’re not interested. You didn’t ask for the appointment, you don’t want it, why the hell should YOU have to go to the trouble of cancelling something you never asked for in the first place?
      Actually, I would be writing to the practice manager asking what the f**k they think they’re playing at. Seriously, it’s no wonder the NHS is going under when you think of all the money gobbled up by so-called ‘preventative’ healthcare.

      Same with breast screening – you get a pre-arranged appointment with your invitation. But at least when my appointment for an a mammogram comes along I can tell them where to stick their precious boob-crusher. With smears, they’ve made it damned near impossible to opt out. Gah!

      Making an appointment for you is coercion, plain and simple. Maybe they’re making a last-ditch attempt to brainwash women into believing this test is mandatory before the new screening leaflet is released (which is just as crap as the current one, in case you haven’t seen it.. in many ways I think it’s actually worse. But it does, at least, make it clear that screening is a personal choice and you have the right to decline.)

      • If they’re making an appointment instead of you, doesn’t that mean that this is a situation taking place as a product of THEIR decision-making & not yours?

        Someone COULD make the argument that someone is innocent when choke another person to death because that other person didn’t get out of it- but they’re not. These people aren’t physically dragging someone into the building & wrestling with them to make this situation happen, but that’s not the only way to push someone around.

        If a person were to extrapersonally broker a real estate deal of that person’s real estate & then stamp their foot or even demand a fee if it’s not actuated by the property owner, this would be seen as utter fallacy & not any kind of “helpful act.”

        They could also make the argument that they’re a flying werewolf & that all their actions are innocent because of this, as they affirm it, “fact.” Still bullshit. Not someone to be in a position where they could apply influence to someone in a medical setting, either.

      • Hi anon. I’m angry on your behalf. Even my smear obsessed doctor stored short of making an appointment without my consent though he still raised of in consult every time after I’d officially opted out! Have toy tried opting our? Its disgraceful you shouldn’t have to but at least my written “invitations” finally dried up!!
        Sue, 10,000 comments! Thanks are due firmly to you and the other informed women who are out there looking for women like me!! I really didn’t have a clue when I googled stop smear test invitations last year! What I learned since has been a real eye opener. Thanks again Sue and everyone else here…x

    • I feel your anger.

      My advice to you would be to write a firm letter to the “screening authority” (have a look for their address on the letter or look it up online).

      Tell the screening authority that you have made an informed decision not to screen. Also, tell them that you do not consent to being part of the screening programme and that you will not consent to the procedure.

      The words “consent” here are very important. Because, in medical law, every competent, adult has a right by law to refuse any medical procedure and medics are duty bound to accept that. I would emphasise that you make reference to consent and informed decision(s) in your letter because it shows you have made a decision and that you know your rights, by law.

      You might add that if the summons do not stop, you will be seeking legal action to address it.
      Add a line at the end to the effect that you trust that your decision will be respected in accordance with the law.

      I wouldn’t recommend writing to your practice, unless they have also been writing to you, but personally if that’s the case, I would send and address the letter to the screening “authority” and send a copy to your practice. However, they are more likely to let your practice know about your decision.

      I would recommend that you write to them and confront this head on, so they know that you are in charge.

      With regards to being worried about seeking medical advice, you mention that you last received a summons three years ago. In that time, have you ever been asked about screening by your GPs during that time? If not (and judging by the fact that even your receptionist may not have appeared too bothered that you ignored it – advising that you wouldn’t hear anything again for three years), then maybe, you shouldn’t worry too much.

      Believe it or not, not every GP practice is militant about screening – mine certainly isn’t and though, they might not like your decision but they will have to accept it. A lot of GPs have realised cervical screening is certainly not what it is cracked up to be.

      If the question ever comes up in the consult room, please summon up the courage to tell them that you have made an informed decision. You needn’t say anything else. If they push it further, repeat this line. Avoid getting into a debate with the doctor or he/ she will try to manipulate the situation to get you to screen. If he/ she continues to push the issue, leave the room and inform him/ her you’ll be reporting them to the British Medical Association – this should make them back down. You could also shop for another doctor.

      From what you’ve said, I don’t think you have anything to worry about and I reckon they will accept your decision without much fuss. They aren’t as likely to try to force the issue on an informed woman and the chances are that if they really wanted to pressure you, they would have applied much more pressure than this by now.

      I’m happy to draft a letter on your behalf or to assist you with one, should you wish.

  45. I agree with all of you. Also, the more I learn about it all, the more sinister these practices seem. I’m thinking of opting out. However, I’m worried that if I ever need to see the GP for an unrelated reason in the future, I’ll probably have to justify myself if I’m asked why I’ve opted out at this age. I don’t want the GP to wrongly assume that I’ve been abused in the past. (Not that we should have to give any explanation as to why we do not want an elective test).

    Perhaps it’s commonplace for women to have letters with an appointment that’s already been made for them…It seems that most just go along with it without complaint, because they assume it’s for their own good. But, I just find it bizarre that opticians, for example, do not harass us like this or make appointments without asking, even though I’m sure lots of women drive daily, and eyesight is so very important for this (often hazardous) activity.

    • I agree. I must apologise for my earlier comment – I re-read your original comment and realised it was the surgery who were harrassing you.
      The only pertinent issue is though (and I am certainly not sticking up for them here), but for some reason, practice surgeries are bound by NHS guidance or something to write to “defaulters” (ie. those who do not respond to NHS invitations) about screening, around six weeks after the initial NHS invitation. Even though, I find that bl00dy annoying and unwarranted (anyone with half a brain would know that someone who doesn’t respond just isn’t interested). And this ambush is certainly annoying and unwarranted.

      Have they ever attempted to ambush you verbally? If not, you might be okay.

      I’d recommend that you write as I initially said to the NHS screening authority (noting that you have made an infirmed decision and that you won’t consent to either be part of the screening programme or to the procedure itself, so you wish to be removed from any screening lists with immediate effect).
      This should get you off the official screening register, and then send a copy of the exact letter to your GP practice.

      If you need help with that, let me know.

      You raise a valid point about driving. Also, what about other conditions which are far more common and threatening to women’s health, such as depression, diabetes, chronic conditions, lung cancer and heart conditions? No screening programmes (or interest) for those.

      • Thank you for your kind offer. I really appreciate it, and will gratefully ask for your advice, if need be. Its lovely that this is a women friendly site. And you’re right; some of the diseases you mentioned are all too common. So, screening for a rare cancer over these other diseases makes no sense, really…

        So far, they’ve not verbally ambushed me. I expect they will, if and when I next see the GP. No phone calls, yet…But, I’m feeling more confident now that I’ve ‘armoured’ myself with the facts that I’ve learnt here!

  46. I LOVE this site!! I’m from the US, and though we don’t have a screening authority, we have some pretty pushy doctors here too. Ive been visiting this site for over a year and i figured its about time i left a comment to show my appriciation. Thank you all!
    My mom made me go to the gyn when I was 18 and everything that is talked about here is exactly what happened to me. First pap- not a a good specimen. Second pap a few weeks later- a typical cells and referral for colposcopy. Colposcopy revieled atypical squemous cells and positive for high risk strains of HPV. Shortly after that, my mom lost her health insurance and I moved out and never did any follow up treatments or appointments. Fast forward to 23 years old and I was pregnant with my first, and the new OB sprung a pap on me at my first prenatal appointment. I had actually put off making a prenatal appointment until I was 20 weeks pregnant because I was dreading a pap and pelvic. I wasn’t asked or given a heads up, just treated like a routine thing. Still as upsetting as I remember it being before. At the next appointment the doctor said everything was fine and I was HPV negative. I told him about my previous historyandi didn’t understand how that could be possible. He disclosed that these things often clear up on their own. The only good thing that came from that pap was proof. Their really is no bennifit to screening so young. Such a piece of mind to be able to say no now. If I wouldve followed my doctors orders who knows what would have happened. I may not have my two beautiful children if I had any of those follow-up procedures. I feel confident saying no because I am living proof that the test is bogus.

    • Thank you for joining us. Thank you for your courage. And even more strange yet, a huge belated thanks to your mom for losing her health insurance coverage! HA!!! Proof! Just let me guess. You were told your life depended upon quick treatment. You’d never have kids if you didn’t quickly jump on the table naked, heels in stirrups, legs spread wide, begging please do to me whatever! Save my life! Ohh Please!
      Picture in your mind you and your bf/gf told by RN it was best for them to wait outside. Explaining that you wouldn’t want them to see you “that way” and that they wouldn’t want to see you “that way.” [huh? now the RN or clerk can suddenly somehow even read your loved one’s mind? and now the nurse also knows your favorite sex positions?] But “she” (now smiling) would be there for you–all the support you’ll need. Just a routine exam. They do these all day, every day, and you’re not special–nobody will care what you look like naked. Are you peppered with questions about IF your loved one or advocate is abusive at home or if you do or not feel safe at home? Dr K-Y (male of female, gay or straight) is impatiently there in the room, “waiting” to save your life. The lecture that it “may” be uncomfortable for a few seconds but well worth it for what your life could become if you were one of the unlucky ones. When you ask about pain they tell you it’s imaginary bc there’s no pain sensing nerves on your cervix. During the colposcopy, the doctor tells you that you may feel a “pinch” or something like a mild period cramp when the “alligator teeth” like contraption bites off chunks of your cervix; or the other metallic thing that pinches & punches off your tender tissue like it’s just a piece of file paper having crisp holes made to hold records. Afterward does the staff make facial gestures as if your life is going be saved but just in time thanks to them? Do you get the “nod” from staff as if they recognize and offer sympathy to you for your pain and tears? Does your spouse or partner feel they were treated respectfully?
      When it’s all over, and your hands are shaking and you’re crying buckets of tears, do they hurry to dump you off back to your loved one? Now claiming that to that person “she needs your help.” After you leave, does your loved one asks why you didn’t demand they stop or come out to get him or her to support you? Do you ask why, since it took so long, why that person didn’t demand immediate contact with you? Is there an argument about how much pain you’re in and the fact that you have nothing at all to make the pain stop
      Please, everybody, tell me if THIS IS YOUR story. Does this apply to you?
      I am going to be talking to a few people and I need your life experiences to describe.
      Please help.

      • not totally my story always alone. but it won’t hurt bs i can relate too. i am small and they can’t get the spetlum in me. my body freaks out. i w told come back when you cn be examined. the issue was i could not be examined. it’s barbic what they do.
        they did these exams in concentration camps! i suffered enough! NEVER AGAIN!

      • Yes, that’s my experience. I’m bombarded with “you have to do this, or we won’t give you a script for your birth control pills.” I was bullied into having this useless test I did not want or need. The nurse, without asking me first, told my husband he could come with me. NO HE CANNOT. The nurse i mmediately started asking me the domestic violence questions, to which I impatiently said NO, and there is no need for us to have this discussion. She said I “had” to do that too, and i overheard her whisper to the doctor about “red flag….she didn’t want her husband here…won’t answer the questions…” I spent almost TEN MINUTES trying to convince the doc that I wasn’t a victim of domestic violence and do not want my husband present for an exam that I consider A RAPE. he said he was “Sorry you feel that way.” Their attitude pissed the hell out of me.

        It was a dreadful experience and I will never go back to that doc again. Problem is getting my birth control pills! Nobody wants to give them without an exam, even though I do not want or need it. Planned Parenthood said exam was required too, so where the hell can I go?

      • This morning on Network Propaganda Liberal News: Finally in US the numbers fall and the nagging begins. “Too many women aren’t being screened by the totally safe pap. Too many cases of avoidable CC which can be prevented and women can be saved.” Oh really? Suck me.
        For Evaro and Angry Patient: The way of getting BC and satisfying their asshole “standards of care” that you must be pap scraped…is to FORCE them into accepting the alternative. Which is the HPV BLOOD TEST. That is what we did. Except that my husband found Trovagene HPV urine test.
        Check in your area which labs offer HPV blood testing. Just call and ask. Once you have that, next is doctor/nurse. Tell them everything you hate about pap. Including that you’ve experienced extreme trauma from it. Even if it’s the same office you’ve always been going to. Tell them you’ve been in therapy and now you feel empowered. Insist. Pap is 53% accurate. Ask your lab how accurate the blood test is. Force it. Reflect on your previous non-HPV+ record. You can do this. Even be very uncooperative on the table. Tell them you feel like you’re being raped.
        In CA The Pill is OTC. Or go to Mexico pharmacy online where it’s also OTC.
        Evaro, did you read what I had written for you some time ago?
        Angry Patient: Why NOT want your husband there? I agree with you in what you feel and what you say. In my case, my husband (then dating) told me we were history unless he went along. So I capitulated and it was the best thing I ever did. Not saying you have to follow me here though. But you’re taking on the establishment w/o any back up nor advocate in the room. He can be useful. Educate him. Tell him to look over the doctor’s shoulder. Refuse to give in. Tell the doctor you want “alternatives” to pap…
        If you don’t mind; tell me what happened when you got home. Did yourself and your husband argue? Have sex? Was he angry that he had to leave? Did he ask questions? If so, did you answer? Also, are you young, good looking, and skinny? Either w/o kids or just one?
        I ask this bc medical “professionals” like to put women they physically prefer onto the “rack” or stirrups. Do the exams take a long time? Do they stare at your nipples during the exam? Do they spend too much time fondling internal erogenous zones? Such as the anterior cervical fornix? Either rectally or vaginally, when this area in particularly is manipulated it causes us to involuntarily lubricate and arouse. Also, my husband has watched enough times, he’s told me that every 1-1/2 to 2 minutes I engorge and reengorge. I’m not even aware of this.
        If you’re not going to have any more kids, perhaps it’s time for him, if he’s game, to have a vasectomy. Let me know, I’ll tell you pros and cons.
        I’m sorry for you, that you have had to undergo this torture.

    • What I also want to tell you.
      Two very nice, helpful ladies who regularly contribute to these sites, Moo and Elizabeth (Australia), have advised time and again that HPV is NOT latent. That it CANNOT lie dormant in your body silently stalking inside your vagina and immune system until you’re weak…and then it smartly attacks. I second this. It can’t.
      Half my life ago I had to endure this process which ended in cryosurgery. I was made to feel what the gyno put me through that painful hell on earth was for my own good. My terror, my fear, the experience in which the doctor sat totally disconnected “assuring me” that the cold would provide its own anesthesia and analgesia. The husband I had then could not have cared less.
      The husband I have now would be at the doctor’s throat if I were put through a similar experience.
      I never knew if I indeed had HPV other than the pap. In US, Pap Scrapes are not tested unless the MD requests it and only then IF the initial Dx is abnormal!
      Two years ago my husband forced my present gyn to allow me to use Trovagene urine based home collected HPV test. It came back negative. [recently Trovagene company d/c this test due to “lack of interest.” for such a breakthrough test, it was never advertised nor even part of a news broadcast. what a shame; what a loss for women]
      IF HPV were latent, then my test would’ve come back positive.

      • Cat & Mouse
        Not surprised there was a “lack of interest” in the HPV urine test but that would be from the medical profession, not from women, we’ve always been cut out of these decisions. Also, when we get misinformation, it’s impossible to make an informed decision.

        Here in Australia, we’ve been wheeling women into surgery and day procedure rooms for many years doing “treatments” and biopsies without first checking them for HPV – instead, the HPV test was used as the “test of cure” – how convenient for them!
        So they’d “treat” or do a biopsy on the cervix, then do the HPV test and WOW, you’re cured, no HPV!

        Of course, most of these women would have been HPV- to start with and many of these treatments and biopsies were on young women, those who would simply have cleared the virus in a year or two anyway.
        So they’ve gone to great lengths to protect this industry and to deceive women (and clearly couldn’t care less about our health and well-being; the system has zero respect for women)
        Now we told that HPV- women are unlikely to develop cc within the next few years so can safely test again in 5 years, this is all down to NEW evidence and the HPV vaccine – rubbish!
        More women are working out the significance of being HPV- that they can’t be helped by pap testing, and certainly don’t need biopsies, colposcopies or treatments.
        So they have to be more careful about over-treating women.

        Also, the numbers who screen are falling so they’ve been forced to make some changes to maintain control, but they’ve still managed to hang onto some of the profitable excess. We’ll do HPV testing from age 25; long-standing evidence says not before 30 but HPV testing these young women will lead to lots of unnecessary colposcopies and biopsies.
        We know about 40% WILL test HPV+..these are transient and harmless HPV infections that would clear in a year or two. So our young women will continue to suffer under our new program.
        We’ll also, test for HPV far too often – and we’ll keep testing HPV- women who are no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous – we won’t give them a choice, some of these women might choose to stop testing if they were aware of the significance of their risk profile.
        HPV self-testing will also, be locked away until you’ve declined the invasive HPV test for 6 years. We won’t be offering the Delphi Screener, but something cheaper, this is handy because they’ve already been telling women that HPV self-testing is inferior to/less reliable than a test carried out by a medical professional.

        Of course, IMO, they’ve KNOWN for many years that MOST of the women going into day procedure WERE likely to be HPV- but they wanted the cash from all of the unnecessary treatments and biopsies.
        Of course, safe in the knowledge almost all women were completely ignorant when it came to the evidence, and the few informed women around would never be believed by the masses.
        The “treatments” also, served to scare women and lead to continued compliance with the program and it’s fierce promotion, how many “saved” women promote pap testing? (Interesting…they’re often very young…over-treated – almost certainly…saved – MOST unlikely)
        I believe we knowingly butchered huge numbers of women, a simple HPV test would have ruled most of these women out for these “treatments”.
        The callousness is hard to accept but there is an important lesson here…BEWARE of these programs and the medical profession, especially when it comes to women’s cancer screening/health.

      • Thanks Cat&Mouse this helped me finally understand this aspect of HPV..I’ve been struggling over this dormancy bit. Not that I believed the screening propaganda I just didn’t get it if you know what I mean..

  47. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/samantha-walsh/smear-test_b_11886928.html

    Take a read of this, my view: she had a false positive pap test, like lots of other young women, and was over-treated…look at the damage it caused to her body and life!
    of course, she clearly believes the treatment saved her life, so she’s urging women to have their pap tests. Now this is the insidious thing about this program, these women can’t see the wood for the trees – she should be furious she was tested early, against the long-standing evidence.

    My bet: no early pap testing and she would have gone on to have a happy life with an intact cervix…and could have had a child.
    I can’t comment, think you have to be on Twitter or Facebook, some of you might like to comment.

    • Ah, I’d love to comment but I am not on Facebook (and don’t really want to sign up to it due to work reasons). But those women infuriate me!! Do what you want with your own life if it makes you feel better about yourself, but DO NOT have the audacity to tell me that I “need” this test and that it “has to be done”. There is far too much interference in women’s lives right now and what else goads me is men commenting on this subject. How dare they??!!! Arghh, they make me beyond angry.

      But I noticed (to my delight) that there are very little comments on this blog since 1st September and even fewer likes. I guess a lot of eomen are feeling like us and are starting to get fed up with the whole topic, which has always felt like a lecturing campaign rather than a public health campaign.

      Inteterestingly, prostate cancer is getting a lot of coverage right now with shaming posters and an advert which has a teenage son lecturing his father who comes across as an ignorant, petulant child (I guess the guys are starting to realise how ut feels to be lectured by the NHS).

    • As more women are learning the truth, medical profits from the lucrative cervix-butchering “program” are dwindling. Hence the crap.

      • Moo was spectacular in hunting down and sharing stats. These were copied out of university-level med school text books etc. The stuff “they” prefer we NEVER see. Although they yap about it, the last thing doctors want us to do is become truly informed and then start demanding info before they can lie to us per their “shared decision making.” My husband goes to every appt I have regardless of what it is. He gets stressed and upset if I can’t go to his which happens a time or two.
        I am disabled. Since our near 30yr marriage we’ve been to close to 100 different offices for this or that. We learned early on to watch for certain phrases, key words, and BS talk. Like the old “take a couple Advil 15 minutes before” and “not that many patients report pain very bad.”
        The first? Useless, placebo. The dose too small and won’t have any effect on blood plasma levels. And what patients report? He’s telling the truth IF you know what he’s thinking now what he’s saying. It means, “ALL patients are reporting pain that’s VERY bad.”
        A horny gyno, male of female, will all say the same things too. Such as “must rule it out, I could go to jail if I don’t do this exam, (or) I’m billing for this exam and I have to do it…, potentially serious, want to make sure your parts are working right, we do this all day, every day, all bodies look the same to me, I can feel all your reproductive organs, etc. I can think of more too.
        My advice. Go back and read the old entries. There’s a wealth of information there.
        I registered on TSMH site and over two days wrote two passionate replies to that garbage article.
        The first was not printed. I’m hoping the second will be but I’m not holding my breath.
        This article is based solely on hype, fear, and has no facts to rely on.
        There’s very good comments made by a Pathologist and another doctor.
        Pap scrapes are read/scored by computers. Rarely Pathologists review slides.
        That’s why they’re only 53% accurate.

    • The lack of technical terms is appaling in this story. She said she had “her cervix scraped out because she had pre cancerous cells”. So she had a colpscopy and an endocervical canal biopsy? What were the results of her previous pap tests? CIN II or CIN III. Was she HPV postive? What strains of HPV? These are all questions any woman should ask and get straingt answers from. Sounds like she did not have cancer but the panic she has is so terrible.

      Breast lump? Could be nothing. Did she even get an ultrasound?

  50. I’m sure the desperate go for your smears my dears will learn eventually that women aren’t going to go. They plan anothee scare campaign in Scotland even though previous ones didn’t work…

  51. http://www.cleveland19.com/story/33256480/cervical-cancer-diagnostic-market-worth-120-billion-by-2024-grand-view-research-inc

    120 billion!

    How much of that is a complete waste of money?
    MOST of it…take out the 95% of women aged 30 to 60 who test HPV-…take out those under 30…take out HPV- women no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous…take out women who’ve never been sexually active…take out those who’ve had a complete hysterectomy for non-cancerous reasons etc. etc. No colposcopies, biopsies or treatments on young or HPV- women etc.
    That huge sum could be spent on far greater risks to our health, a large chunk of this money ends up harming lots of women too
    This might be great business but it’s culpable and immoral medicine

    • Puts it all in perspective doesn’t it? The bullying, the lecturing – it all makes sense now!

    • I looked at the graphics and they included the cystology tests in cervical screening, but I can’t understand why, even though it seems to provide no significant effect on the rise of the market and has nothing to do with cervical screening (cystology is for bladder exams). The main rise seems to be from the projection in the future of more HPV test, replacing progressively a portion of the pap tests.

      In fact they project the increase of use of HPV test will be greater than the decrease in pap tests. My explanation is that they will use HPV tests on women who didn’t previously had pap tests. So not only replacing existing pap by HPV tests, but acquiring new market for HPV tests alone. I wonder how that would be possible to achieve since the protocol now is to either use HPV test after abnormal pap, or use HPV with pap.

      They would have to change that and offer HPV test on a stand alone basis or make it the first test, but pap test seems useless once you have the HPV test, as it provides more accurate information. Then as soon as HPV test comes back positive for high risk they ask for a colpo/biopsy. Overall they just replaced one test with another, without losing any profit.

      Colposcopy and cervical biopsy have a regular but slower increase that the HPV/pap tests variations, but you can see that both colpo and biopsy seems to increase at the same rate, which makes sense as they are both done together.

      Now this is my question, if HPV test could allow less colpo/biopsy by sorting potentially dangerous abnormalities from the harmless abnormalities, and therefore less colpo/biopsy since now we could only colpo/bipsy the dangerous abnormalities, while in the past with only the pap they would colpo/biopsy all of them, how can we still see an increase in colpo/biopsy? You’d think the colpo/biopsy rates would either flatline or decrease as more HPV tests are used!

  52. While it’s obviously great news that UK women will be told they can opt out of cervical screening.. It remains to be seen how easy the authorities allow it to be. Will we be told we have to complete a counselling session first? Even after I’d opted out at first my doctor still brought it up every time I went. Maybe we’ll have to continue pushing back. No I’m not coming to counselling.. No I’m here to renew my asthma meds not check my vagina thanks….
    I’m guessing we’ll have to keep pushing for self testing… Ada did you hear any more??

    • I bet the powers that be are smarting that screening is now being presented as a “choice”.

      They won’t like it and they won’t want to accept it but I believe that this narrative will gradually make it harder for professionals to continue to impose it on women. I can imagine some women saying in the consult room, “but the letter says it is a choice…”

      The programme’s days are numbered. But I am angry that it has taken until 2016 to recognise that women have a choice, whereas men’s needs and choices as valued himan beings has always been respected.

      • Exactly, to the truthful, I didn’t think I’d see it in my lifetime.
        Nothing happened for decades, no matter how badly women were being treated, no matter we were harming and abusing huge numbers of women.
        Women will be the ones to stop the current program in its tracks, you can’t put a woman on the spot, you can’t insult or bully her when she’s informed, you’re very likely to hear from the AMA, Medical Board or her solicitor.
        I’m sure we’ll still see some doctors picking on vulnerable women (and young women)

        Unless you pull doctors into line, a lot of this talk about choice is just that, talk, it relies on women standing up to doctors in the consult room, and that’s not easy for many women.
        I’d have more confidence that a change in attitude was in the air if THEY challenged doctors doing the wrong thing, chasing targets and trampling all over our legal rights, including continuing to link the Pill with pap testing.
        There should be a public statement: “All cancer screening is elective, if you have an issue with your doctor, please call etc.” “Pap tests are not a clinical requirement for the Pill” etc.

        In some ways, the noise is just that, probably to placate informed women, but it’s something…when for decades we had nothing but medical abuse.
        The counselling thing is nothing more than an attempt to bully and scare women into testing – I’d not only refuse to attend, I’d report the doctor.
        I’ve reported a surgery a couple of times – on their website they say repeats for the Pill cannot be arranged over the phone or online because “women on the Pill need pap testing”. I first reported this Clinic about 2 years ago, needless to say, nothing has been done and the offending statement remains on their website. No one here is talking about choice anyway, but it’s yet another example of the complete lack of respect for women and choice.
        It amazes me how absolutely nothing is said about choice here, although we did get a few news articles on over-diagnosis in breast screening. In fact, the FIRST article I found on informed consent and cervical screening (from an Aussie source) was earlier this year – yes, this year! (Of course, no one talks about the lack of consent itself, “you need one for the Pill” etc.)
        The article that appeared in the MJA was along the lines, given we’re changing our program, perhaps, it might be an idea to consider informed consent. It seems our legal rights are optional when it comes to cancer screening.

      • I agree. It DOES rely on women standing up to these oppressors. That is essentially why we are at the point we are at in the UK. It is due to more informed women, not embarrassed or scared ones. I went on the Daily Mail earlier on and ecpected a flurry of red arrows on my comments, only to have received none! Even as recently as two years ago, comments like mine were very few and far between. The message is getting through (very slowly).. Of course, it doesn’t help that the fiercest defenders of this programme are young-ish, angry women! (Who refuse to see informed consent as valid).

        If the end is nigh here in the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada will follow suit (eventually).. Raising the age to 25 will be the beginning of the end. Why? Because I recall that is when scrutiny of the programme really gained traction over here in the UK. It forced some people to question its validity.

        The more enlightened women began to question why they had been basically coerced to have this “vital”, “life-saving” test from 16. They began to question the wisdom of the medical ptofession and the so-called efficacy of this test. Many asked, why have we been told that this test is so vital from 16, when they are now saying it isn’t really effective for any one under 25? What has changed? How effective is this test exactly? It forced many women to start doing their reading. I’ve never been screened, but it was around that time when I started doing serious research and of course, it may be the case that the message has been cascaded to younger generations.. Plus, speaking from even just my own personal experience of life events and so on, pressurising 25 year olds is a lot harder than doing so to 16 – 20 year olds.. Plus, many women today have children later in life, meaning it is harder to capture them and when they are captured, they might be less likely to relent..

  54. AQ thanks I left comments along with u and kiwi.
    The new phe blog on opting out of screening has just gone up..what do you all think??

  55. AQ ada posted it on pap tests are not mandatory. ..I noticed that lack of red arrows too. Guess the next fight will be standing out for the self testing method for those who want to test….

  56. I’ve got a question for women: How high does it rate in importance for a man to be conscientious about things like this? For instance, a guy might be worried at the twist a hospital visit for his wife or kid might take. I know I’ve stayed deliberately single for a long time, simply because I don’t like the conditions of the environment I’d be doing the whole “wife & family” thing in. It’s got plenty to do with there being a lot of “disqualified problems” in this country that frequently involve things getting strange (usually from cops or doctors, or both).

    I think male support would definitely come up more frequently if it was referenced as a desired trait (there would, potentially, be some arguing of points needed to clear away assorted bullshit). Kind of like how a woman might mention protectiveness without possessiveness as a desirable trait.

    What brought this to mind was that I am planning to leave for Europe in November (possibly for good) & got to thinking of how women would size me up & I think one of my strongest positives would be that conscientiousness, but I’m also worried I stayed single too long. Just didn’t want to immerse myself in all the bullshit in this country or live the “Jerry Springer Life” with my kid as a co-star, but I worry it’ll come off like there’s something wrong with me & I just have issues with sex/women/people/bonding/etc… .

    • For Katrehman & Apoc Queen in UK, I did post a response on the Daily Mail site. Thanks for taking the time to write the link. I wrote what the Pathologist said.
      Alex, my husband agrees wholeheartedly with you.
      To him, it seems once the child is conceived the message repeatedly told to husbands/prospective fathers is “you’re not needed” until the baby is already born. There are doctors talking about rewriting rules again keeping fathers out of the delivery room.
      This knee-jerk reaction illustrates both the power trip doctors have and the lack of trust to have another male figure present that might ask questions on behalf of his wife and child.
      Anything to stifle the protective instinct men have. As if we don’t have enough of a divorce problem already. We have said many times that divorces begin at the ob-gyne’s office and in delivery rooms.
      All the talk that every case is regarded as individual and that hospitals and their staff will be respectful and will accommodative is pure BS. One you’re in their door you’re their prisoner. Don’t like it, they will call CPS or the cops. Or, you can sue. Hahahahaha. As if there’s money for that after all the other expenses.
      Go to the non-sponsored sites where women air their fears and emotions.
      I think the only place where a man and wife might have a near-normal birth is at a birth center using water birth. Hopefully they will have nitrous oxide.
      It’s one thing to assist in birth when mother nature needs it. It’s another to break apart a family, treat birth as a disease, scrub the vagina with disinfectant before birth (yes, creates a dry birth condition–and the biome that the mother passes to the baby during birth which would protect the infant is taken away), the Strep-B test that can be avoided simply by consuming yogurt, probiotics, kefir, kombucha (Kevita brand)… Or the fetal monitoring, deliberately drugging the mother with pitocin so an emergency C-section MUST happen to save mom & baby (doctor a hero now).
      I hate them and their rules.
      It sickens me watching doctors passing their wives to “friend” doctors for exams like there’s nothing to it. No doctor will ever say a colleague is a pervert until long after a prison sentence is dished out and the license yanked.
      And these assholes think they have rights to pass judgement on us.

      • Holy shit! I didn’t know about a lot of that- they are deliberately causing problems. Ever notice that there’s always such a strategically-placed “accident”? They just so happen to not know that they’re causing an issue & because of that “ignorance” their are somehow sacrosanct. Bullshit! These issuances are not outside of reality & just like a martial artist doesn’t “practice” whatever martial art on people as the decide, medical personnel don’t “practice” medicine however they or their higher-ranked community members decide.

  57. i got a email from the hospital about mammograms it awareness month. i could not unsubscribe. i will try again. i had one yrs ago. i will never again put my self through that. it hurts .

    it was humiliating. i quit attempting pap test a few yrs ago. too much trauma.

    they do free mammos in oct in the us. With so any test done at once they can’t be acurate.
    they get in for free , than say you need more test. nothing but profit while humiliating women!

    diane

    • Diane as an informed woman say no loudly and u can do it. ..we know
      .awesome role model

      • what about calling them and telling i choose not to have mammograms? i feel i need to let them now my position and that i want to be left alone!

    • I agree with you re mammograms and the pain. How can they say mushing our breasts down to chicken patties size is good? Doesn’t that force any tumors to secrete fluid or tissue? We have asked and the answer didn’t inspire confidence. It’s like the early detection and quick action will negate any possible damage of tumor spread. Huh? Care to put that in writing with a guarantee?
      The mammogram was selected for these reasons. The political clout doctors have in silencing critics while their money convinces Congress to pass laws. Safety, efficacy, and risk were placed at a far second to convenience. Thermography and ultrasound could be used to detect “hot spots” which indicate inflammation and pockets of fluid. Both hallmarks of possible cancer. Almost nothing was done advising us how to cut risk via diet and smoking; or to be vigilant given family history.
      Premarin is still recommended and used. It’s not safe; it’s not bio-identical. How many cancers did it cause? How many devastated families?
      It’s just like pap & pelvic exams. Males decided this. Skyward erections were counted as votes.
      The only thing they got right was “early detection” being key to survival.
      RE The Sydney Morning Herald story, “Pathologist” sent in comments. I wish I knew who the person was as he/she deserves hero status.
      The BS regarding CC occurring in old vs young women was, for me cleared up. Pathologist said CC is an old woman’s disease with the highest occurrences in women over 85 years.
      Dysplasia a young woman’s disease that resolves on its own.
      Facts are, nobody cares about old women. Whether it’s breast or CC.
      Why? The sexual thrill is gone.
      These women have much to offer our societies. We need them, and they need us.

      • I think one of the reasons that they push so much for mammograms rather than ultrasound to screen for breast cancer is like what a commenter (retired radiologist I think) said in one of the Dr Welch’s conferences, is that there are professional “mammographers” out there, who don’t do anything else than mammographies and their analysis all day long. They risk losing their jobs if breast screening becomes less popular. Mammography can’t be used for anything else than doing an x-ray compressing the breast. I really doubt they could convert it to testicular cancer detection and convince men to screen that way!

        Compare that with thermography or ultrasounds, who can be used for plenty of other medical purposes other then breast cancer screening. Mammography is a dead-end job, and they know it.

      • Miso99: I noticed your 10/2 comment re cystology being included with CC stats. PREMARIN What I’m going to say is an educated guess as to why these two are being graphed together or each included in the same study. Defensive medicine; add-ons o. Although I’ve never treated through a urologist, they “work under the hood” so to speak as an ob-gyn does. It would not surprise me if urologists performed pap scrapes. [EVERYBODY: PLEASE, WHENEVER POSSIBLE REFER TO pap smear AS A pap SCRAPE! let’s tell it like it is. this test is meant to draw blood–per my husband’s doctor “friend” that’s EXACTLY how the procedure is taught in med school. take a look–see for yourself on youtube.]
        A urologist could/would perform pap scrape to “rule-out potentially serious life-threatening disease” as part of “diagnostic processes.” Caring and responsible doctors will strongly recommend” a follfow up pelvic “FEEL-UP” exam to “APPRECIATE” the bladder and to (of course) “rule-out (etc as above)” other “potentially active regional disease etiologies.” Of course (of course) this in-office exam is offered only to attractive patients from teens through mid-40’s. The rectovaginal (two-fingered vaginal salute “brilliantly modified” by doctors out bowling or a specialist lugging a six-pack) is quick, cost-effective, painless method…
        I’d like to hear what experiences women and men who’ve treated with urologists. Was the exam one you felt was medically indicated or was the doctor playing in your recreational area?
        RE Premarin. I know a person who has undergone frontal sinus turbinate destruction via electrocautery as part of sinus surgery. Electrocautery is the least destructive form of “reducing bulky turbinates.” The purpose and long-term goals of this surgery was misrepresented.
        As a solution to the horrible dryness and what is known as “empty nose syndrome,” an ENT suggested that Premarin drops be applied where the turbinates are located.

  58. A medicine magazine for Quebec GPs produced by the medicine board of Quebec (legit publication that doctors use for their guidelines and info updates), which is available for free online if you search enough, the issue, from April 2006, provides interesting explanation about the starting age for cervical screening, here’s my translation:

    “Since cervical cancer is exclusively linked to HPV, the American Cancer Society states that with appropriate counselling, a woman who has never had sexual activities could decide not to screen. The threshold of age 21, has been generally established to avoid missing women with an unmentioned sexual abuse history or missing women with undisclosed sexual activity.”

    So basically they could have thrown little papers in a bowl with numbers on them and randomly pick one up to be the starting age of screening. Why not 20, or 22 then? The first part of the statement is almost in contradiction with the end. How will doctors know that a woman is telling the truth when she says she never had sex, and then do “appropriate counselling”, whatever that means, while knowing that from age 21, she might or might not be lying about it? That won’t make a difference, as the doctor can always presume that there is “undisclosed sexual activity”.

    I can’t find any other cancer screening test or medical procedures based on the patient lying to you to start screening them! From an ethical point of view, if the doctor suspects the patient is lying, it’s up to the doctor to prove it.

    • Welcome Miso99
      It shows how warped the thinking in women’s cancer screening, screening should be offered based on best evidence, not on doctor’s making assumptions about us.
      The evidence should be released to women, and then it’s up to us to say yes or no…or at least, it should be. Targets and target payments should be scrapped too
      Of course, that will never happen in most countries.

      The evidence says pap testing does not benefit sexually active women up to age 30 (and obviously doesn’t benefit women who’ve never been sexually active at any age) but leads to lots of excess biopsies and over-treatment after false positives.
      Suggesting women may lie about their sexual status to “get out” of pap testing shows how dysfunctional the system is, and the thinking – cancer screening is elective, an option, we can say yes OR no.
      The evidence has moved on and now we know only about 5% of women aged 30 to 60 are HPV+, and you can test yourself for HPV…no need for a speculum exam so pap testing should simply be offered to this group of women.
      Other women (95% of those aged 30 to 60) might choose to have HPV testing or HPV self-testing 5 times in total or just once (if they’re no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous) depending on their level of risk or they might choose not to test at all (like me) Women under 30 should be left alone…pap testing or HPV testing is not supported by the evidence, it just worries and harms a lot of young women.

      • I’m 32 and never had a pap test or pelvic exam, it’s pretty easy to slip through the cracks if you don’t have a GP and there isn’t an official cervical screening program in Quebec. Not being assigned to a GP here is common, and I never made any effort to get one since I walked out on one like 10 years ago. So if you don’t see your doctor often or if you’re not assigned to one you won’t be pestered with these invitation letters. However if you want the pill you’ll have to go through it, or for any female specific care such as HRT or pre-natal care, or even regular follow-up for any chronic condition, unless you’re followed by a specialist who doesn’t care about paps like an ophthalmologist or a dermatologist.

        It seems that everybody is accepting this blackmail mentality of the pap test being a ticket to access proper health care, which seems even worse in the US with that whole OB-GYNs acting as primary care physicians racket. Unfortunately most women never think to challenge or research the issue, there like there is a big blind spot for doctors in the population that you just don’t challenge or oppose them.

  59. Also, the suggestion it’s best to screen from 21 to catch those who lie about their sexual status or those who were sexually abused, completely ignores the women caught by this recommendation who’ve never been sexually active. When you pap test women under 30 (and now we’d add women 30+ who are HPV+) you expose them to fairly high-risk from false positives, excess colposcopy/biopsy and over-treatment.
    These things can cause damage, psychological/emotional and physical – I shudder to think of all the women who’ve never been sexually active who’ve ended up having a colposcopy/biopsy or over-treatment. No one seems to care about this group of women…

  61. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/04/cervical-cancer-gap-screenings-increased-to-10-years-research

    Well, well, well, I think the Dutch are making it hard for these programs.
    As more women leave these programs and targets become a distant dream, we’ll slowly see change, of course, vested interests will be kicking and screening all the way.

    They’ve never listened to the Dutch before, for decades they’ve only offered 7 pap tests, 5 yearly from 30 to 60, while most other countries engaged in serious over-screening and non-evidence based screening (like screening before 30, screening women who’ve never been sexually active or those who’ve had a full hysterectomy for non-cancerous reasons and screening the elderly)

    So who would have thought, HPV- negative over 40 can be screened every 10 years.
    Actually, most women can forget about testing, if you’re HPV- and no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous, well, why would you bother?
    I think they may take note of the Dutch this time because the cat is out of the bag and I think women are more aware so the old fob off won’t work, “the Dutch might do that, but we have to consider local factors and do our own research”…that was used here for decades to justify horrible over-screening and inappropriate screening that resulted in widespread harm to women.

    • I think you’ve mentioned the Dutch programme so often, Eliz, they can’t keep it out of the public gaze any longer! Interesting that the Dutch began trialing HPV testing way back in 1999 (see the link in my post to Kat), and the UK only just doing its own research now.
      I thought you might be interested in the following link about screening after age 65.

      http://www.healthnewsreview.org/news-release-review/pap-smears-in-the-elderly-effusive-headline-gets-way-ahead-of-the-evidence/

      • It would be nice to think someone is actually listening, but things have certainly changed, I don’t feel like an idiot when I post now, there are certainly lots more informed women around, must be very annoying and concerning for the zealots. (and vested interests)
        So that means more informed comments and women prepared to make their own decisions and to Q the program, that has to force change.
        That doesn’t necessarily mean we’ll get the best screening based on the evidence, our new program will be better than the existing one (which I believe is harmful) but there is still lots there for vested interests, too much testing and we’ll start too early)
        So vested interests still greatly influence our program.

        Screening women over 65 – if women are HPV- at 60, that should be the end of it (assuming women are concerned about this small risk) It could end even earlier if they’re HPV- and no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous.

        We’ve included women aged 70-74 in breast screening too, this is clearly IMO, to make up numbers with more women dropping out or choosing not to screen in the first place. There is no evidence of benefit, but some of these women will end up having excess biopsies, and I imagine a few will be over-treated. (that could result in their death)

        A colleague told me that her mother had pap testing until she was 70, even though she was a widow at age 50, and there had been no sexual activity for at least 10 years before that so no sexual activity for 30 years. (her husband had Parkinson’s Disease)
        Her GP knew she was a widow but kept strongly recommending 2 yearly pap testing. (“if you’ve ever had sex, you must have 2 yearly pap testing until you’re 70”)

        The tests were painful, distressing, she was left with soreness that lasted a week or so, got several UTIs after having the test and a grand total of 2 false positives and 2 biopsies (normal) over her screening life.
        A simple HPV self-test could have prevented all of that misery – the caring profession, you must be joking! Also, if she’d been given real information and a choice, she might not have bothered at all.

    • Damn – there was nowhere to comment on that! While looking at the links to other cc articles on The Guardian, I also came across this: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/16/full-uptake-of-cervical-cancer-screening-could-save-hundreds-of-lives

      Would you believe it, when asked why women don’t attend, one researcher from Cancer Research UK, not only acknowledged that screening is a personal choice, but also mentioned women withdrawing due to the rates of false positives and false negatives! Wow. The message DOES seem to be getting through, even if reluctantly and slowly.

      Also, until very recently, The Guardian and its readership have been another one of those newspapers which have been very militant about screening – bizarrely for a supposedly left wing publication. So much so, that some articles and associated comments on some of their older articles actually depress me a bit.

      I had a bit of success earlier this year engaging with the posters though – who seemed far more open to my arguments, than the followers of the Daily Nazi. A handful of them said that they would be pursuing self-testing via the Delphi Screener and the word “choice” is gradually filtering through.

    • I have no official information but my guess is that they will, but it will be very carefully controlled. They’ve just published this.

      http://www.nhs.uk/news/2016/10October/Pages/Cervical-screening-every-10-years-for-healthy-women-is-safe.aspx

      It says that it will be for the over 40’s only, and you can bet your life it will only be for those women who’ve always had negative smears up until then. I can hear the GP’s rehearsing their persuasion tactics right now: “Come along, dear, you’ve only got to go through 6 of these tests and then you can drop them for 10 years”, and then after that it will be “Just pop your panties off now and you won’t be pestered for another 10 years”. I think a lot of women will cave into that line of attack. I think there are a substantial number of people in the NHS who do want to reduce the programme. If the over 40’s are only invited every 10 years I can see the take-up rate going to well over 85% again. The GP’s will reach their “top” incentive rates and be happy, but not have so many patients to see to. It’s a win/win for them. There’s been a lot of news recently, about opting out and reducing testing. A wall of silence from Mr Music on this of course.

Comments are closed.