forwomenseyesonly

Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.

3,978 comments

  1. Honestly, the reach and nerve of this program, my sister asked me to arrange a mail redirection online for her, they offer an extra and free service whereby they’ll let various companies and groups know you have a new address….and on the list, the cervical screening register!
    I couldn’t believe it, but I suppose anything that helps keep track of the herd.
    Naturally, I ticked “no thanks” to the extra service…

  2. Interesting title, nurse navigator, is that a nurse who navigates you down the passage, into the consult room and onto the table for a Pap test. I’ve never heard of a nurse navigator…I wonder if they operate on a performance/bonus system, so much per cervix and extra for the hard-to-catch or never previously caught cervix?

    • Or of course if men are navigated for bowel prostate or AAA screening. ….

  3. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-06-sterilization-techniques-ureteroscopes-contaminated.html?utm_source=nwletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-nwletter
    This is a concern, it always worried me how well they sterilised the metal speculum, I’m sure many women ended up with issues because of contaminated speculum.
    I think most doctors here now use plastic disposable speculums.
    This is another reason I’m cautious with routine checks…
    This is an American study, but I imagine our numbers would be high too

  4. Its another cervical awareness thing this week and the eve appeal want us to order a check your chuff badge from them and upload aa pic of u wearing it. I assume this means get a smear. Pass the vomiting bucket..

  5. I actually e mailed the Eve appeal after I checked them out.a few years ago they said that women should talk about their vaginas and feel comfortable doing so regularly discussing their vaginas with friends and family?? They should also use the correct name vagina Instead of things like fanjo or ladygarden. So I asked how this equated with check your chuff? If they want to use correct terminology why not a badge with get a cervical screening or have an intimate vaginal exam? I await a reply!

  7. Well gang, today I am thoroughly ticked off.
    About a month ago I received a call from my surgery to check my details. She claimed she was checking ‘because we care’. I stifled a snort, wasn’t in the mood for an argument. See, Here in the UK every GP gets paid for every patient on their books, and it seems that some dodgy doctors have failed to update their lists when patients die or move away, therefore receiving money for ‘ghost’ patients. So when this dirty little secret crawled out of the woodwork, surgeries were obliged to check their books were accurate. Hence the phone call.
    Oh, she said, one more thing.. they want you to have a smear. I restrained myself from exploding and cave her a very firm, very cold, ‘No’.
    Fine, she says, I’ll write in your file that you’ve declined. So, end of call. Not too painful.

    Then, this week, I get another call to ask me to see the practice nurse for ‘a few things’…
    Brief hesitation. I suspect one of those ‘things’ was a smear, but maybe she saw from my notes that I’d already been pestered. Anyway, she asks me to come in for a blood pressure check. Now a) we have a blood pressure monitor at home, and my readings are usually on the low side. b) they never gave a toss about my blood pressure before, now it’s really important for them to know. Wouldn’t have anything to do with government targets, now, would it? (Yes.) and c) I know a visit to the nurse would give them an opportunity to ‘counsel’ me on the ‘importance’ of smears. Now, I’m armed with plenty of info to shoot down everything they throw at me, but I’m not a great talker and wouldn’t keep my cool.
    So, no, sorry – I’m not interested in helping you reach your targets.
    The thing is, they talk about needing the incentive money to provide a good service, but how much of the money is spent on helping people in need, and how much is spent on achieving the targets in the first place? Hmmm.
    Anyway, I digress.
    Today I receive a letter from the practice asking me to make an appointment for a smear as I have not responded to their two previous invitations. Bloody cheek! Especially since I’ve been ignoring their summons for over 15 years now.
    Get this. ‘As you may or may not be aware, cervical smears are part of a National Screening Programme for early detection of changes in the cervix which could lead to cervical cancer’.
    No shit, really? Even though I’ve been tested before, the subject is raised at every consult, it’s splashed all over the media… nope, never heard of it.
    It goes on; ‘Smear testing has been proven to be a safe and reliable method of detecting these changes and we know that for those women who are regularly having their smears taken there is an increased detection rate of abnormalities which can be treated. The earlier the treatment can be started the more likelihood there is of curing any abnormalities.’

    Talk about misinformation! I feel like writing back to them and giving them a piece of my mind.

    Sorry guys, I just needed a rant. XD

    P.S. I checked my chuff today. It’s still there.

      • Have a question: Now that there’s a muslim mayor of London, do islamic women get harassed about getting probed at the doctor’s? If so, it “seems discriminatory” & should probably “be addressed.”

        Whether THEIR argument winds up being religious or not, it would be presented as being their choice- then non-islamic women could make the same overall point (that THEY made a choice that resulted in bodily autonomy & self-governance over what goes where).

        At that point, what can they do? Protest & say they’re being bullied? Say something contradictory that would blanket the muslims & their decision? Make a point that amounts to them getting special treatment?

        Doesn’t even matter what the frequency is with muslims, since the point can always be made with that same starting point- “Well, if a muslim woman was to refuse a penetrative action on the doctor’s part, what would happen?” And then they’ll say something about not pushing the issue & probably that it wouldn’t matter what someone’s religion is, they decide what happens to their body (especially if someone asks “Is that because of her religion?” when they talk about not pushing the issue). THAT, done publicly & in a widely noticed situation, breaks the back of that issue (and, just like with a broken back, there’s still the possibility of them flailing around & landing a blow- but the majority of their ability is reduced).

    • Kate, can you photo your notes where you have declined to test and keep the photo on your phone to remind the staff at your surgery if they are troublesome?

      • To be honest, Ada, I’m lucky that I’m in good health and don’t need ongoing care. Haven’t been to the surgery for years. I don’t stand for any nonsense these days – I cut those phone calls very short – not interested, goodbye – and if they start trying to pressure me by phone in the future I shall tell them where to go and slam the phone down.
        Thanks for the advice though, I’ll bear it in mind should I ever feel desperate enough to go to our god-awful surgery.

  8. What creepy b@stards! I have somethings to rant about myself, which I will later.

  9. Hi all! I just had a reply from the Eve appeals Wesley Hutchins… Sounds like a male but still…
    Dear Kat thank you for your email to the eve appeal regarding our recent campaign around cervical screening awareness week.we fully apprentice the concerns you have raised regarding the promotion of our check your chuff badge and the face you feel it contradicts the messages the charity has been promoting to encourage women to use correct terminology when talking g about the female anatomy or gynaecological issues
    The tone of the campaign was meant to be fun (??) Kat’s brackets and comments! Interactive and engaging whilst raising much needed awareness of cervical screening and encouraging women to attend their appointment when ” Invited ” especially since uptake rates have declined in recent years with over a quarter of eligible women not attending their appointment in the passed year. All language used beyond the hashtag is anatomically and medically straight talking
    We really value your feedback and will be assessing the campaign and its efficacy in reaching audiences
    Once again thank you for your feedback and commitment to using g the correct terms around gynae heath

    Well! Opinions??

    • Why is a campaign to detect cancer supposed to be fun? This is what is so distateful about these charities and their fun campaigns. I don’t remember seeing anything from Macmillan cancer, at least I haven’t seen anything from them, but Eve Appeal and Jo”s are really trying to get the first-timers through the door, only they don’t seem to have realised that women aren’t being invited at 20 anymore but 25. It’s nauseating how they’re presenting it as a cute girly thing to do. Hope the attendance rate sinks into oblivion.

    • Check your chuff.

      Hmmmmmmm.

      Check.
      Your.
      Chuff.

      Cheeeeeeeck yourrr chuffff.

      Chuff. Chuff. Chuffffff.

      Nope. Not funny or fun in the least, Kat. They’re really arrogant to think that they could make something like that – fun. And they are arrogant for not caring about the real, emotional, painful reasons why women are declining. Is it me, or did they just step right over what you were trying to tell them. It’s not just about using correct words – in fact they should use general medical terms such as with men’s issue (erectile dysfunction – priapism, vasectomy….etc.) where we know the meaning and it’s not disrespectful. If nothing else, they should just say – female genitals. But – that’s not the point (wish they would get rid of the whole campaign, really). They know the issue is about the exam, period, but think they can trick women into it anyway by being condescending.

      You’re right – the cold, unattached answer was definitely from a male. “Chuff” is a funny sounding word, But the face I make at reading that word isn’t an amused one. More like a surprised grimace. That’s because the meaning is irrefutable. Nothing funny about being half naked in stirrups with strangers touching you and feeling you – male and female (ob/gyn’s and nurses aren’t your best friends after all – though they’d like to think they are after touching you so intimately. They even try to say that the exam is a way to bond with them – Sick!!!). And, there’ s definitely no fun in being lied to – we know most women don’t need checking. Those that are sheeple or think they have problems – and the few that may actually develop it – God forbid – well, they are way past due in offering the self-tests to them. Why not do that instead. Whoever answered you didn’t drink the Kool-aid, it’s being intravenously fed to him. Even more disgraceful if that was a female that responded to you.

      And how they still treat women like children – yet again! Make it sound fun and cute (do they think we have the minds of adolescents or teenagers??? Even they see right through them when they go to touch them!)

      Yes, make it sound cute, as if once they get women in there, they will giggle as they take their pants off and think it’s oh so cool to be in stirrups with strange men at them. Are they going to give souvenirs and lollipops with that badge when it’s over?

      Oh my goodness. Speaking of adolescents and teenagers. A 12-year old girl in the U.S. recently assisted in the natural birth of her baby brother. It charmed the commenters. Not me. The ob/gyn is a male old enough to be her grandfather. He was standing behind her with his arms around her as he helped her catch the baby. The moment must have been – SURREAL. He’s in front of her naked mother – they never get tired of seeing them in that vulnerable position – the same one she got pregnant in. They disrespectfully showed her open leg as far up as they could legally show. We’re not supposed to care because it’s childbirth. They would never disrespect a man’s body and show their intimate procedures. It really disgusts me how women’s bodies are exploited in the media through medical procedures involving their breasts and vaginas. Discussions on procedures for men – whenever they are discussed in the media – about never use the word – penis, and surely, NO pictures. But that’s something else.

      Nevertheless, he’s enchanted her daughter – so much that she doesn’t even see how creepy it is that he’s there staring at her mom – a man who’s not her father – because she’s so distracted by the baby coming out. Now the young lady wants to be a gynecologist – another female coming to the business. No clue where the dad was in all this. Guess this ob/gyn had an out of body experience. Guess he figures that little girl will be his client soon getting pelvic exams, rationalizing to her that her mom got them. Her 12-year old mind doesn’t yet see how – wrong – it was for her mom to be exposed like that in front of that man, being touched by a man – who isn’t her father. I wish her ob/gyn was a woman, but it was a man. How. Absolutely. Disgusting. Yes, it’s impressive that the little girl was brave and had presence of mind to want to be a part of that. Her face was of joy and tears looking at her baby brother. However, I’m not distracted from what really happened in that delivery room because I can’t dismiss the male ob/gyn’s point of view – after all we know and all that we have learned about them.

      And, would anyone have found it cute if instead the mother had a 12- year old or better yet – 16-year old son who wanted to deliver his baby brother? Nooooooooooo.

      What a world we live in, where the lies are twisted with the truth; where the good winds up in a pas de deux with the bad.

      Be Blessed.

      • I really think the whole “well woman exam.” Is just a sick ritual or tradition based off false notions of the female body and profit. I have never herd any good resons given that whould make me want to go and get violated. Oh lol one time I even herd the lame reason young girls “Need” to visit gynecologist is they can learn good hygiene. I must need to see a dermatologist so they can teach me how to wash my hair. Lol

      • i agree about the ” well women ” exam bs. i can’t count how many times I hae been charged for this with no exam! It’s nothing but a scam to get women into the office,
        I could not have exam, was told repeatedly to come back when i could have exam!
        I was charged for ths fo yrs.
        I would lke to charge them for the hours of trauma they have caused me. Also for the hours of therapy with therapist who didn’t understand, or pushed for exams!

  10. “They would never disrespect a man’s body and show their intimate procedures”
    Penelope, that’s an interesting point, we often see images of women in position ready for a pelvic or Pap test or having a mammogram but when the DRE was being used here, I certainly can’t recall the same type of image being used…
    I wonder if research told them women would become de-sensitized to the position if they saw it over and over again and thought it was just something every woman had to do/cope with…
    I wonder if the thinking with men was: we don’t want to put them off…

    I think it also reflects the lack of respect for female bodily privacy and dignity, we see that everywhere, gratuitous female nudity while the men wear shorts or even suits. It all sends a message, it’s time that message was changed, the female body is not something to exploit, it’s private property. Keep off!!

    • Thanks, Elizabeth 🙂

      You see it, too. This gratuitous female nudity fuels the disrespect that men, including male ob/gyns, have for women. They presume that because some women want to show their bodies off scantily clad and/or naked (alot of celebrity women lead this charge for attention, acceptance, and due to low self esteem) that EVERY woman secretly and not so secretly wants to do the same thing. Sooooo, I guess they think all they have to do is convince them it’s for their own good and they will get naked for the exams. We know that women doctors, I hate to say, are guilty of this too. But, it’s better to spar with a female about declining than a male ob/gyn. Unfortunately alot of females take on the males behavior to show them that they’re as good as the boys. Unfortunately a good female ob/gyn has to be sought and found. If the practice of childbirth wasn’t wrestled away from midwives centuries ago, and if women were “allowed” to practice medicine over the centuries alongside men, I believe that obstetrics (gynecology may not exist as that Marion J. Sims wouldn’t have been able to get into it…sorry for the pun….) would have become a female oriented profession – no perverted males would be in it. I don’t think pelvics would exist if that was how history evolved for women’s health – if women developed the methods and technology over the centuries. I still dare to dream that women will take over completely and drop the paternalism too many have so disgracefully adopted.

      I think that birth trauma from unwanted intimate exams and interventions in hospitals (which is now being widely reported and complained about) and the imposition of male ob/gyns is also why so many women are choosing home births with female doulas and midwives, Doulas and midwives claim that they respect women’s wishes for no intimate cervical checks. I wish they wouldn’t post videos and pictures of the women half naked with legs open, though. I understand they want to capture the agony of labor, but it defeats the purpose of privacy and respect for the woman’s body. Seeing pictures of the newborn not yet cleaned up is enough.

      It’s true that women have the choice to do what they want as consenting adults. There are those women, whose backgrounds and life experiences dictated to them that they are no better than their boobs and crotches, that they choose to pose nude, semi-nude, legally nude, strategically nude, implied nude ….I think I can go on. They pose nude not just for men’s magazines (that wouldn’t be proper for a middle class woman who’s on the PTA), but also for skin care ads, medical ads (there’s one targeting men for spinal treatment, but has a woman naked from the waist up – back to the camera to sell it……), and news articles on mammograms and pelvics as you said. I see they have declined, though. The message that women don’t like pelvics, especially with males must have had an effect on that. I notice that girls (like they’re in training, or something…..) and women are more likely to be shown in swim suits, and boys and men in shorts and tees – in the same picture or tv ad. What breaks my heart, Elizabeth, are that alot of the medical articles show women who aren’t actresses…they had no clue they were being photographed in front of a mammogram machine. I wonder if they agreed to be compensated, too, after their outrage calmed down at being photographed like that. I guess alot of women allow it for the money as the media – and entertainment industry pays alot. If they didn’t consent and were powerless over the decision to have the pictures posted, then they should sue. Maybe some have as I haven’t seen as many pictures. They wouldn’t dream of doing that to men with prostate exams.

      It’s these women, though, that make it bad for us – for those of us that have too much self respect and self esteem – and too many brain cells to do that. It’s one of the reasons, I think, that women still don’t garner enough respect in the workplace, why they still, par for par, aren’t paid as much as men for the same jobs. We have to overcome the women with low class behavior to get what we deserve in the workplace, in the ob/gyn’s office, and in the delivery room – good grief!

      Well, let’s keep up the fight. It’s good that we have each other to give us strength and courage to keep on fighting this scourge in the ob/gyn’s office.

      Thanks again, Elizabeth – Be blessed!

  11. I’ve just been reading about a lady who recently lost a pregnancy at 22 weeks due to an incompetent cervix caused by a single lletz “treatment”. It is heartbreaking that a healthy baby can fall out of a womb and die, because of cervix damage from this procedure, which they promote as harmless. She had no follow up and no warning or advice that the procedure could result in such tragedy, distress and little hope for further pregnancy. I assume that she certainly wasn’t told that there was an 85% chance the CIN3 would clear up by itself, but women are just guinea pigs in this game as the following new article shows.

    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaoncology/fullarticle/2633183?utm_source=TWITTER&utm_medium=social_jn&utm_term=945772648&utm_content=content_engagement|article_engagement&utm_campaign=article_alert&linkId=38940906

    • Hi Adawells:

      Aye, ya, yaaaaa.

      That is a good article. But, I hate the picture. I’ll believe the woman is an actress. I didn’t see the link before just writing moments ago about women being shown in front of mammogram machines – of course naked from the waist down. That wouldn’t be if it were an article on a man getting a prostate exam or testicular exam. Still trying to find pictures of that – a man being shown from the back with hospital gown open – getting testicles checked – with the doctor sitting stage front on his (or her) stool to get a good look. I think I’ve seen, about 5 pictures in as many years, of men getting the rectal exams. However, they show it as a joke – not as a serious medical advisory like articles with mammograms and pelvic pictures.

      Well, at least the word is getting out that mammograms are not as necessary or beneficial as promoted to be. Just hate the picture.

      Be Blessed!

      • I really hate the way birthing women are portrayed in the media -always on their backs, legs in the air. The best way is to be upright, but you never see this in films or photos.

      • adawells: That’s true! I think they had a scene or two like that in Vikings, though. They definitely had one scene where one of them almost died (and they DID have a scene where she was saying that she never had anywhere near that much of an issue with her other pregnancies, but they never showed those).

        I think it would be a deal-breaker for me if a woman I was having a family with wouldn’t have them naturally (I get that it might be an unknown subject for her at the point of discussion, but I mean after all the research & conversation has been had). There’s so many things that can deform or make the kid retarded, that can give the woman injuries & infections, and all of this can be something of problematic consistency that might just be imposed against her wishes. So… .

  13. Healthy woman do not “need” gynecologist. But gynecologist need healthy woman. Food for thought.

  14. Daily mail today ladies. A quarter of women put their lives at risk because they never heard of smear tests!

    • Hi Kat. This article does the rounds word for word about once or twice a year. It never changes. Of course theres the obligatory reference to Jade Goody as if she counts somehow. I laughed as i read the article. No mention of the dangers of testing. Also i watched that terrible video that goes with it. Horrofying.

      I doubt very much that there are women out there who’ve never heard of a smear tests and have no clue what it is about. They simply don’t want it! I wish somen would just be honest with these people and just say they dont want it.

      I’ve been placing comments on the phe website but they dont get past the checkers. They probably dont want to be inundated with a load of rape claims from women waking up and wondering what exactly has been going on for the past thirty years.

      I hope you are ok and read the book i put in kindle. 3 people have bought it so far so last sunday i put an extra fiver in the church collection.

      C u x

    • Same old crap from the DM. I’ve ticked you up Kat and your comments are doing very well. I’ve noticed that the DM article says that the test saves 2,000 lives per year and not the 5,000 quoted by other medical propaganda outlets.

      • I’m sure when some women are put on the spot as to why they don’t attend screening, many will say they “haven’t got the time” or “I can never get an appointment”, rather than say “I don’t want one” and avoid all the accusatory drama.

        As I have said many times on this forum, if a woman WANTS to do something, she will find the time. I get my nails done every fortnight. I work full time, I have children, I have grandchildren, I have elderly parents, I have pets, I have a home to run (!), I still manage to make that appointment.

  16. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/29/low-risk-breast-cancer-patients-could-spared-chemotherapy-new/amp/

    I thought I’d share this with the middle aged girls on here.😊
    Not only does this test spare chemo but also suggests no mammograms should be undertaken.
    I think this is the way it’s going to go. You can’t take an old toy away from a baby. You have to offer a new toy for them to be fixated with, and quietly ditch the old one when they aren’t looking. Same with screening.

    • Just to clarify. This test, Mammaprint is only available to women who have breast cancer. The test is done on biopsy tissue. So a women who gets this test would have had a diagnostic mammogram (due to a consultation about a concern ie symptoms or signs) or she had a screening mammogram that showed a tumour and had a biopsy which was positive for cancer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MammaPrint

      The 70 genes that indicate the risk of more serious cancer might also be in women who do not have breast cancer but the test is not available to them. So a woman having a benign tumour biopsied would not be allowed this test.

      Because the causes of cancer are not strictly genetic, is this test really of benefit to all women? No. It just benefits women who have cancer and their doctor’s cash flow. If some woman wanted this test to determine if she had genes that would make her more likely to develop a serious breast cancer, would it be available? Would it not make sense for a person to make lifestyle changes to avoid developing cancer? Probably the only advice she would get from a doctor is to have a mammogram which does not prevent cancer.

    • They’re terrified it’s the end of the road for them aren’t they. They “don’t think it will ever replace the doctor’s office”, “without a pelvic all sorts of serious abnormalities will be missed”, it’s “a first step for women to have some control?” Who does this Barbara think she is? A lot of us have already taken back control by getting to the truth about smear tests and making an informed decision, Babs, so you’d better start looking for another job!
      I do wish Ms Ching’s product takes off in a big way and puts these gyno quacks right out of business.

    • There is no information on the pros and cons of the test or even the fact its a vaginal examinations just the fact that it takes three minutes and the usual 5000 lives a year crap.
      Its about time these screening authorities grew up and face facts that women have got to the truth. They can see through the propoganda. Also pursuing young women by facebook is tantamount to hassling them especially if theyve had their letters and even a phone call. The whole thing is despicable

    • Can’t think how I missed this ! I’m actually really confused as to the point it wants to make. Why would. Woman feel guilt ? What’s empowering about having your vagina jacked open and a brush inserted? I don’t have Facebook or twitter but if I did I’d get well mad if I started getting smear test “invitations” on it! The couple of phone calls I got were bad enough….

  19. Linda I agree! They can’t leave well alone. Over on that loathsome cervicalscreen1 they seem to think beauticians should be recruited to increase uptake of smears. The logic is women have bikini waxes ect which involve exposing private parts so the beautician could promote the importance of smears! It really is harassment. Let’s capture them on Facebook.. Text them…ring them…go bard them with letters…harass them in doctor surgery….

    • Hi Kat glad you’re ok. I see someones given you a thumbs down it wasn’t me I have given you one up. Can’t believe they’d recruit beauticians as well. there’s no low these people won’t go to.

  20. I can pretty much guarantee that the Essex campaign on Facebook will fail. The researchers have no idea as to how to connect with their target audience, just like they have no idea that the young women they are trying to target probably know exactly what a smear test is and have decided not to screen. In my experience of working with people in their twenties, Facebook is not their preferred social media option.

  22. This is an old thread. But I found this recently, and nonetheless, I feel for the poor young woman.

    http://www.healthboards.com/boards/sexual-health-women/837966-traumatic-virgin-pap-smear.html

    What really kills me is the aholes who replied to her post. Out of 30 people, only two gave her any sympathy.

    See how this affected her psychologically! None of this exam was worth it, now was it? In the years since her post, I hope things have gotten better in her life. Her mother should be ashamed of herself!

    • i feel for her my self. my mom took me at age 18 i think. I was told nothing.
      The dr said i wa tight and try again another time. That wad the start of yrs of failed exams. trauma and no help. i hope that lady dhas not suffered like i did

    • Hi Allison:

      I hope she’s alright, too. That was – 6 years ago. She would be about 32. I wonder if she visits this site….maybe – there’s been thousands of comments…..and has commented or is still silent. The people who responded – have to wonder about them. Well, not really. They are sheeple. (…Part of being a woman…..do they tell that crap to young men….”it’s part of being a man”…and don’t they just hand over the Viagra prescription without insisting on checking their genitals…and heart…). There may have been an ob/gyn – male or female in the comments – essentially trolling her testimony.

      Maybe they female sheeple have learned a thing or two since then and have eaten their words. That is how people go from sheeple to informed women. I hope she finds this site if she hasn’t and reads our information. Hopefully she’ll see your post and comment here.

      Be blessed.

  23. I came across this terrible account on the net about a year ago. I was very angry at the time. This young woman was raped in my opinion by an overzealous doctor who didn’t give a f… about the well being of her patient.

    Many GP’s inadvertantly ‘rape’ their patients by forcing unwanted smears on reluctant women. It is a scandal that has been going on unchecked for decades – (particularly in Britain by the NHS organisation which has operated the smear programme since 1988.)

    Women cannot trust doctors. There are predators out there in medicine not only that but doctors are sometimes skewed by the thinking they are doing something in the patients best interests. Woman the world over need to educate themselves about doctors and protect themselves within the consult rooms. We have been too trusting.

    This site is so helpful in educating women about the medical profession.

  25. Hi. I am a regular lurker on these forums, and I have to say you gave me back my peace of mind. I hate doctors, and have no whatsoever trust in them. I always thought smear tests are a con at best, a conspiracy at worst. I refused any and all contact with gyn doctors. However I became frightened recently, as I noticed I started to spot mid-cycle. Second time its happening now, tiny streaks of blood in the mucus like hair, before that it happened in January, it was a few drops of pink discharge. I started taking blackstrap molasses and cut caffeine, and the spotting was gone. Now its back(so is the old unhealthy lifestyle) and it is only a tiny, tiny, amount, barely detectable, I only noticed it because I am really stressed out in this phase of my life and therefore paying a neurotic amount of attention to my body. Am I overreacting? I am now worried about worrying. I am beating myself up for worrying so much. I know rationally that I am overreacting and yet the idea of having to go to such a doctor is so insidious it makes me worry. I don’t even really care about some light spotting, I am way more scared of the gyn-industrial complex!

    • Hi Anna U:

      Thanks for trusting us with your testimony and your problem. How are you now? Have you decided to make an appointment? Or, are you going to try your GP first?

      It’s easy to get afraid and panic-stricken when you get graphic symptoms. You must feel like now you have to “give in” and let the ob/gyn do his/her worst to find out what’s wrong. However, it’s like the ladies on this site have said – it may be something that can be cleared up without a worked up exam. You mentioned having taking blackstrap molasses and cutting caffeine; try doing it again (cutting caffeine that is…..not sure if blackstrap molasses every day is the best thing……). Drink decaf coffee and tea and cut down or stay away from sodas if you drink them. It may be something in the caffeine that’s stressing your body and thus causing your womanly problems. You mentioned having an unhealthy lifestyle. Do you do a lot of heavy lifting that stresses your abdomen? If you’re – pleasantly plump – you may have an irregular menstrual cycle or system. Women who are overweight – and underweight tend to spot or miss periods. For example, it’s why the ob/gyns (they can be decent sometimes…) says underweight women have to gain a certain weight before having children – or they will miscarry. It was the noted problem of a couple of celebrities, I recall. For some advice – try the herbal remedies on the site “Women Against Stirrups.” Admittedly, they sound gross as some may means sticking stuff up there, if you know what I mean, but the women on that site who offered them seem to swear by them.

      If you have symptoms that you feel iare worse than what a herbal remedy or change in eating habits can heal, then – deep breath, exhale…..go to a FEMALE ob/gyn. You know you do not want to deal with a male. BUT….BIG BUT, go with the knowledge of this site and the strength it gives you. Don’t let them railroad you into getting on that odious table made for women. Insist on the testing methods that can actually diagnose something. Nothing was ever diagnosed with a pelvic – only speculated. They will still have to send you for – CT Scan, ultrasound (insist on ABDOMINAL…the transvaginal shows the SAME THING, but from a different angle….), bloodwork, MRI, urine test if need be. Insist then on those. No colposcopies or hysterosalpingograms (they think of more things to put in a woman’s vagina that I care to count – again…..). If the CT Scan, abdominal ultrasound, bloodwork, etc. tests find something more serious than a medication and change in eating and lifestyle, then please search for a good female ob/gyn to prescribe your treatment…..who will respect your wishes to not have a pelvic. They exist.

      Go to the Medical Patient Modesty site for information on how to protect yourself in the medical setting. Insist on your rights – try not to go alone. The main thing they say is make sure that you won’t be going to an office with males who mysteriously fill in for female ob/gyns or nurses behind your back. They seem to line up to do intimate exams on women. I wonder if they do that in the geriatric ward of hospitals. Be sure to have your clothes on before finding out who will treat you. If they don’t abide by wishes, leave and find another office. Be sure to exercise all options other than intimate procedures. They can do things by laparoscopic surgery – a small incision in your abdomen in which they put a laparoscope. If it has to be done (big IF) then again – insist on all females – at least they have the same thing you do and won’t get erections. Have them sign something in writing that says – NO MALES for intimate procedures – right down to the nurses. Don’t let them put you under until you are fully prepped and are secure that your wishes have been met. And again, try to have someone go with you. No interns either. Don’t go to a teaching hospital – Please. They think it’s their right to have students do pelvics on you while you’re under anesthesia.

      Please keep us posted.

      Be Blessed.

    • Hi Anna,
      In your shoes I think I would seek out a GP I feel comfortable with so you know you have help if you need to fall back on it. Are you in the UK? Times have changed and GPs now work in area groups so you can ask to see GPs at other practices if you want. You’re not stuck with whoever’s list you happen to be on anymore. I suggest this because I was caught out needing an urgent appointment a few years ago and ended up with my repugnant GP who’d forced smears on me before. If only I’d taken the time to seek out somebody nice before ending up having that vindictive bully with her fingers in me again…but no, she sent me off to some gyn at the local teaching hospital with a 2 week cancer referral. At this terrifying appointment I walked out halfway through in tears.

      My symptoms: I had very tiny specks of blood in mucus and sometimes the mucus was a salmon pink colour. This would occur now and then, and usually make its appearance when wiping after a poo. I put this down to vaginal atrophy postmenopause as I hadn’t had a period for 4 years. I was 52. After several months I noticed drops of true blood on the floor after I ‘d got up one morning. Still nothing further until 2 days later when all of a sudden I had a massive bleed and blood soaked right throughout my jeans in no time. Very embarrassing. I had to drive home to change, and had to get the first GP appointment I could get with above-mentioned monster. If I could only have that time again, I would have sought out another GP, explained that I’d been so badly traumatised by previous GP and asked to have a special appointment. In these the GP advises hospital you’ve had past trauma, and that you’ll need a longer appointment, no students present, and a lot of explaining and a right to stop any of it at any time. They do this for rape victims if GP warns them you are coming and can do things your way. I wished I’d known about this before, so do explain to GP how you feel about the whole gyn business. Oh and have your answers ready for the first question which will be “when was your last smear test” and tell them straight. I hadn’t come across this website before I went and if only I’d had the information I’ve since learned from Elizabeth to tell them now. God I’d so love to put it to them now!😠

    • Hi Anna U,
      It’s nice to see you come out of lurkerville and join in here, welcome 🙂
      I had the same issue with spotting a few years ago. I didn’t know back then what I know now, and I ended up going through with invasive exams and tests. I was given a pap and pelvic by a GP, sent to a gyno for another pelvic, sent for transvaginal ultrasound to check ovaries, and also went through with a hysteroscopy. I was given the all clear, but if I had just waited a bit longer the spotting would have resolved on its own, without all the tests.
      Try not to beat yourself up for worrying 😦 I was worried too, it’s hard not to be with all the fear mongering. For me I think it was a matter of eating too much chicken over an extended period of time when traveling (chicken is full of hormones to force the growth of the chicken). When I cut out chicken the issue went away.
      Whatever you decide to do I hope it goes well. If you go for a consult I second Penelope’s advice re the bringing along a friend or partner.

      • Thank you for your kindness Penelope. I know rationally that my real issue is anxiety, but the problem is that my fears seem rational and justified. It is like constantly walking on eggshells. In my mind it only takes just a tiny mishap, and then its either the medical system, or the crippling anxiety. I see other women on the gyn merry-go-round, and I would not want that, it would completely destroy my peace of mind. I don’t want to worry about the thickness of my endometrium, or whether I have a fibroid. What drives me mad is knowing that in case something would go wrong with my knee or my lung or my stomach I could just get reasonably ok medical care. With my reproductive tract it is different, it has to be hundred percent perfect, or I am toast. And this is whats driving me mad and generating the anxiety.

    • Hi Everyone, and thanks for the kind advice. My spotting (so far it has happened twice, half year apart) is exactly at the time of my ovulation, and I am young and healthy otherwise, so I am going to put it down to hormones and stress. This time the ‘spotting’ was barely noticeable, could have been from a vaginal tear, I was not even sure. I checked the mucus around my cervix, and there was no blood in it. I am so anxious about my reproductive tract I am always on the look for symptoms. Last two days I’ve been scooping out my vaginal mucus, checking for blood- none. Now the whole area is raw and irritated of course. I only wear black panties I am so scared of noticing something strange in the discharge. Sometimes I am too tense to have sex, and too frightened my body will do something strange, aching or bleeding or discharge. And now my anxiety is what is frightening me. That I am making an elephant out of the molehill, then if I get into the system they will butcher me and my peace of mind will be gone for ever. I am angry of myself for being so anxious and it is like a downward spiral… Doctors have done some frightening things to me when I was young, but anyway when you know the reality of the gyn industry you just don’t want to have anything to do with them, ever. It is not paranoia, it is completely rational. The tips you have told me are immensely helpful, If I knew there is something to fall back on if I got ill I would feel less utterly frightened of getting ill… but I am not in the UK now, and don’t know when I am going to be back. (Don’t trust the GPs anyway)

      • You’re very welcome, Anna U 🙂

        It sounds like you’ve been busy with your beaver.

        If you’re making yourself raw, though, then you’re doing too much. You don’t want to cause a problem – especially any scarring. Hopefully you’re not listening to all that
        propaganda out there. One the one hand you see it, hear it, or read it everyday and you know it’s mostly fear mongering. On the other hand, because it’s so frequent, it’s subconsciously making you crazy. And whatever happened to you in your past – has crept into your present (and I’m very sorry about that…). One thing the media is guilty of is over-saturation of a topic. You’re good to be on top of your health, but try not to worry. If you had something really serious, you would really know. Your symptoms wouldn’t come twice a year. Keep in mind all that Adawells, Sue, and hopefully, myself have said. Don’t let your worry over your health ruin your peace of mind.

        Be Blessed!

      • I know some women have spotting during ovulation, not necessarily every month, but now and then or for a few months and then not again for a few months or even years. I’d get a feeling of tightness or even light cramping, and knew I was ovulating…
        I didn’t worry, I knew it was perfectly normal.
        Sadly, though, when we hear so much about cervical cancer and there is so much hype and pressure to screen, and misinformation, I think there’s a tendency to be hyper-sensitive to that part of our body. This means some women focus on their cervix, looking for every little thing, worrying about it and then heading off to the GP for exams, tests etc.
        Sometimes we need to give our body a chance, if I develop a symptom I usually wait a few weeks, and my body almost always takes care of the issue….no need for the GP.
        Sometimes women notice a pattern that is normal for them, like I did with the feeling of tightness when I was ovulating.
        It’s funny though…when we focus and worry, it can extend or worsen the symptom, or so it seems, for example, I lost a sister-in-law to oesophageal cancer, a few months after her death, I had an attack of gastritis. It was an unpleasant experience but my GP started me on a drug and things improved. I found though I was focusing on my throat, was I having trouble swallowing? Was that discomfort? Is my jaw aching?
        In the end, probably about a month later, I had an endoscope, which showed mild gastritis, as you’d expect, the medication was still doing it’s job.
        I was relieved to hear all was well, and instantly…the “symptoms” and my hyper-focus disappeared. I think the focus on cervical cancer and the hunt for “abnormal” cells, the focus on illness, instead of health, can lead to thus unhealthy hyper-focus and sensitivity.
        I think a lot of women have lost trust in their own body, when I think we read it best…that natural inner voice that tells us something isn’t right, it can be diverted by all the noise, the “awareness” and scare campaigns, the pressure to screen etc.
        So try not to worry too much…
        All the best…

    • I got a similar disgusting dark bloody string. I think it was just premenopause. I started wearing black panties and douching with plain water or vinegar and water or hydrogen peroxide and water every week. It lasted about two years or so. I never seemed to get my period in time and when it did the string would last for about two weeks. Now at age 52 I have had only two spotting times this past year. I know some women complain they get a really heavy flow before menopause but mine just pettered off to nothing not even needing a light pad or tampon.

      Do you have clue what is causing your problem?

      Obviously I am not dead and in no pain. Just older.

  26. Hi ladies! Update. Yesterday I was forced to GP with agonisingly painful sciatica. I was pleasantly surprised to see an on the ball Asian lady who didn’t waste time on the tick box weight blood pressure screening crap. 10 minutes devoted to the issue I wished to discuss! Are times a changing?

    • I’d be trying to see her all the time, make her your regular GP. I have to find a new GP, my doctor is thinking of retirement, it’s not easy, I’ve considered and dismissed two close to my home, the new patient Form told me it wasn’t going to work out…
      When was your last Pap test?
      Not…do you have Pap testing? I find the assumption we have Pap testing shows a lack of respect for our right to choose or is a way of pressuring women to conform, either way, it’s completely unacceptable. Also, the Q’s about prostate and bowel screening, “do you have…” the old double standard, respect men and their right to choose, not women.

  28. Feeling the pinch LOL !
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40686393
    Almost half of women in England screened for cervical cancer are waiting more than the two-week target for their results.
    NHS England said based on its latest data 54% of women screened are getting their results on time.
    Delays are being blamed on cytology labs struggling to keep staff as the screening process is replaced with another – which will need fewer staff.
    Labs were unwilling to train staff in the current screening process when it was going to be replaced with a different process, HPV screening.

    • This is such a non-story. About 83% of the results are taking up to 21 days, yet we have that Rob Music getting onto every bandwagon going to say it’s a really worrying situation. Politician Jess Philips is saying that it saved her life because she had “precancerous cells” but doesn’t say she had any treatment except 6 monthly check-ups.
      Yes they’re all congratulating one another on how they’ve been saved from the brink of death by this essential test. Pass the sick bag.

    • Chas this is very interesting. They have the lowest ever uptake of this test yet they do not have enough cytologists to check the samples. They really must have been scaling it all back.

  29. It just goes to show. Cervical cancer is a rampant threat to women lurking over their shoulders. We must test!! And they don’t even have enough bodies to read the slides lol!

  30. https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2017/06/14/what-gps-need-to-know-about-the-introduction-of-primary-hpv-testing-in-cervical-screening/
    Evidence shows HPV testing is a better way of identifying women at risk of cervical cancer than the cytology (smear) test that examines cells under a microscope.
    HR-HPV testing also has a lower false negative rate than cytology. This means women may not need to come for screening as often in the future. The UK National Screening Committee is currently considering the evidence for a possible extension of screening intervals.
    Primary HR-HPV testing will be fully implemented in 2019. NHS England will commission services to implement the testing.
    HR-HPV testing is performed on liquid based cytology samples, so there will be no change to the way samples are taken. But there are new protocols for the management and follow-up of women according to the test results and any subsequent cytology performed

    Still not considering testing urine samples or self sampling!
    Still only thinking about reducing false negatives….not false positives!

    https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2017/07/10/mental-capacity-to-consent-for-screening-issues-to-consider/#comments
    I have only just seen your comment here: katrehman posted on 11 July 2017 and you have had a reply from: Mike Harris posted on 11 July 2017 – he totally ignored your point, what a surprise! But of course men are not bombarded with letters as he admits!

    • Thanks Chas. I left another comment asking why then we’re women chased and bombarded but that didn’t pass the moderator!

      • Hi Katrehman – I’m still waiting for mine to pass through but doubt it will, I referenced your comment as below:
        Your comment is awaiting moderation.
        katrehman posted on on 11 July 2017 – very good points made and your reply from Mr Harris has confirmed that men are treated differently to women, they get discharged from the programme without the need of GP counselling or signing a disclaimer, and not bombarded with repeat invites….unlike us silly irresponsible women who they clearly feel can’t make the decision for ourselves – to screen or not to screen for an elective optional test!
        I’m guessing the moment we book into our GP appts the receptionist probably get some sort of computer alert….Unscreened/overdue/harass alert!

      • https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2017/07/31/making-data-available-to-help-improve-cervical-screening-attendance/

        Here’s the link and my observations:
        Less women are getting screened than ever before and less women are dying from cervical cancer than ever before: The programme is ineffective and a waste of taxpayers money.

        Ever since Jo’s Trust came into existence less and less women are going for screening and numbers set to decline further. In any other situation Music would have been sacked, and the charity wound up, or taken in a completely different direction.

      • And my comment did not make it through LOL! I received an email as per below:

        Thank you for your comments (below) in response to a recent PHE Screening blog article.
        PHE Screening consistently highlights that screening is a choice. Guidance for each NHS population screening programme states how individuals can opt out of screening. We publish service specifications in conjunction with NHS England that explain the obligations local screening providers have in meeting this guidance.
        We welcome comments on our blog posts. Please note, however, that we do not necessarily publish all comments (see our blog comment and moderation guidelines), for instance if they repeat comments/questions that have already been made and responded to.

  31. Just a quickie, gang; The screening Nazis at UCL are advertising for a research assistant,
    ‘to contribute to projects aimed at developing successful interventions to increase informed uptake of cervical screening. The successful applicant will join a thriving research group working on behavioural aspects of cancer screening. The role will involve designing and evaluating interventions grounded in behaviour change theory.’

    Salary 29 – 31k. Funded by cancer Research, of course. Anyone interested? 😉

    • Well that’s the last time I’m going browsing in Cancer Research shops😠!

      Good God, I can’t believe they’re still trying to fathom this out: we have vaccinated cohorts in the programme now, for whom only 2 tests at ages 30 and 45 are suggested for the future but they’re still working working on coercion, threats and bullying. Note it’s only about promoting informed choice in those not attending. If they promoted informed choice in those already attending, most would decide not to attend once they knew the lack of risk.

    • Thanks Chas! I noticed the point about discharging men from the programme while they’ll lie blindly to us telling us there’s no way to stop the letters and pressure! Over on the PHE blog the latest idea is making data available to Increase cervical screening attendance and to make sure every woman who wants to access screening can. Though it does make the point it’s elective and some may choose to decline. They also state some choose not to go because of past experience of the test. They’re going to take data from every GP practice and put it on a dashboard to try and increase uptake. So a surgery performing “badly” might see another practice with high rates and could ask them for advice blergh! PHE say they’re liaising with the wonderful Jos trust in this one. I left a comment but don’t know if it’ll pass moderation

      • Chas and ladies the anonymous comments was mine…no idea why it came up like that!

    • Surprise surprise Chas an email identical to yours was i n my e-mail box. Maybe they’re worried their plans will misfire. On another note I been reading over at mumsnet threads on smears. One woman admits to going basically to stop the NHS pestering her and someone else goes because “its what you do”. Is it really?? I’m sure they’re fully informed lol

      • If you challenge any of these devout attenders they are not making an informed choice at all, they really don’t have a clue. If they attend the researchers claim they’re informed. If they don’t attend they carry out all manner of investigations to show women as stupid, mindless imbeciles incapable of making a decision.

  32. Me! I’d be a secret sabotage of their evil plots lol. I’d better change my name first lol!

    • I know there isn’t a screening programme fot prostate cancer but if there was can you seriously see them studying the effect of it and trying to modify mens behaviour?

      • Good point. Unbelievable that they’re still trying this on. Research has been done over and over. They’ve found nothing works, but just seem to find endless amounts of money for more.

        Public Health England have just advertised for a public representative for all UK screening programmes. Requires 4 days per year at meetings £75/day to voice public experience of the programmes. I was tempted when the person leaving the job posted that she’d been doing it for 3 years, it was quite time consuming, and she’d never got a penny for it. The advert read that although our wonderful screening programmes may look good on paper, they sensed the public unrest and dissatisfaction at the coal face and wanted someone to report back to them what the problems were. They know damn well what the problems are since they’ve been actively suppressing them for decades.

  33. Ada I agree! And while I’m aware I’m just one person and not particularly important in the whole scenario it doesn’t look like they took into account any of what I said to Ms Chorley when I did my I interview last month and believe I told her plenty!

    • I don’t see a way to comment on that website. Also, I have to point out that the comments are even creepier than the article itself. There are at least a few that say that the age for cervical screening should be lowered. There’s even someone commenting that they want to test their 8-year-old daughter *shudder*.

      It’s articles like these that make me so grateful that I have found this website and all the women here who respect their bodies.

      • adawells, I had that thought, but I think it’s more likely that the comments were closed after some time (maybe 30 days after the article was published or something like that). I’m pretty sure he moderated the comments, though. There’s not a single one that doesn’t agree with him.

        I just wanted to ask him if he would feel the same way about these tests if they had the same one for penile cancer. And not just about the discomfort. Would he have this test if he knew he had

      • … he had one in three chance of having his penis amputated by the time he turned sixty (because that’s about the rate of hysterectomies in women who get regular pap smears).

  37. A female police officer in the US has filed a lawsuit, stating she was forced to submit to a “medically unnecessary and sexually invasive” procedure mandated as part of the hiring process. It’s interesting, and refreshing, that article isn’t buying into the diatribe about thee importance of vaginal exams!
    https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/a3eb55/female-recruits-ffirorced-to-undergo-vaginal-exams-by-nebraska-state-patrol-lawsuit-claims?utm_source=vicefbus

    • I think it’s interesting that none of these female officers moved against this sort with thing happening to other women & girls. Come to think of it, much more gets directed at someone when they’re trying to get birth control (sometimes in their teens). Then again, I guess expecting them to actually act protectively or supportively toward someone that’s being instigated with is a bit foolish.

      On the plus side, if it gets mentioned as a problem, maybe the general concept of something medically-performed BEING a problem gets spread around a bit more.

      I don’t know if chicks look up to female cops like men look up to male soldiers, but that could always be another plus- it’s the “strong/independent” thing to do (which is usually just how someone labels being servile or anti-male, but it could be labeled accurately).

  38. Any advice please? Last smear was in 1999, ignored all invites since and did not sign disclaimer the surgery sent me after a while. Rarely visit GP and when I did ring up for an appointment I found I’d been ‘struck off’. That was in 2011 and so I haven’t had a GP since, so no ‘invites’ either – I suppose I’ve been ‘under the radar’. Unfortunately, due to a health condition I had to register with a GP at the end of February this year, by the end of March I’d received my first invite for a smear. After reading as much info as possible on this site, particularly advice from the regular posters, I wrote a letter to the screening service (copied to my GP) to say that I had made an ‘informed decision’ to decline the invitation to screen and requested no further invitations. I also stated that I trusted all parties concerned would respect my decision. However, I’ve just received a second invitation dated 8 August! It clearly states that it is my choice whether or not to screen, but yet they’ve sent me another letter. Any suggestions?

  39. Reply explaining you already declined and opted out and want to book an appt to discuss. ..your issue? Stand firm

  40. Julie I suggest you inform both your surgery and local screening office you do not wish to screen receive any further invitations or information about the programme. Screening is an option you don’t wish to pursue. Once you tell the surgyou want to opt out it’s meant to be illegal to keep pursuing

  41. Thank you Kat and Ada. I followed Ada’s link, and then another link within that document, which reiterates what Kat has said about it being illegal to keep pursuing. The best practice document for professionals states: “The Data Protection Act 1998 will also require that women who have expressed a clear desire to be ceased from the programme should no longer receive invitations and should be ceased from the invitation schedule”. I shall be quoting this in my next letter!

    • Julie I hope it’s successful for you.

      The UK Data Protection Act 1998 meant our wonderful cervical screening programme was operating illegally, because it was collecting names and addresses of all women in the UK, holding info as to whether they had a cervix or not, and sending them all summons letters without their consent and not including information on the provenance of these letters or giving women a means to stop them. The programme was on thin ice until the UK government came up with a solution in Section 251.

      http://www.dt-toolkit.ac.uk/routemaps/station.cfm?current_station_id=383

      Section 251 allows the government to “bypass” the DPA to protect “essential work” of the NHS, in protecting the public from health epidemics. You’re probably thinking that Cervical cancer is hardly an epidemic, but shortly before Section 251 was passed, “research” was written about how our wonderful screening programme had prevented an epidemic of cervical cancer in the UK. So it’s my opinion of how they keep operating today, but they’re slowly making some concessions now as I think they realise that too many women are getting at the truth online.

      • Yes Julie please let us know how you get on! It really makes me mad the way women are treated and herded into this screening

      • Ada I re read this and it’s scary. Sometimes it’s not possible to get informed consent well they make that pretty bloody impossible!

      • Kat we’re forever reading that there aren’t enough doctors or nurses in the UK, and that 1000’s of vacancies are waiting to be filled in the NHS and yet there is endless money for these campaigns and endless money for research to get more women to attend for screening, but when you are actually in need of healthcare there’s a waiting list as not enough beds/doctors/nurses.

      • That’s shocking, how can they “temporarily set aside the common law duty of confidentiality”? It’s troubling how they can put one thing in place to protect people’s interests, but then override it when it suits them.

  42. Informing women via this and other forums is important but we also inform the screening programs and other vested interests. I’m sure they follow our comments…
    I’ve heard it’s very hard to get the Delphi Screener in Australia now, their website has been shut down and a few sites appear to be blocked, I sent an email off to Singapore a month ago, but haven’t received a response.
    This is the risk…as more women find out about reliable self-screening, it poses a threat to the program so it has to be shut down. The self-test that women will be offered here (when they decline the invasive HPV test for 6 years or they’re “unscreened”) will come with the disclaimer, “it’s not as good as the test taken by your doctor”…no doubt, it’s a cheaper test. The hope is making it as difficult as possible will drive most women into the program.

  43. Julie I agree! It’s not just details such as name address and if you have a cervix. I think it’s also things like your last period gets put on there. At the laSt smear I had 17 years ago I was asked did I use contraception and do I practice safe sex??

  44. Since I have never presented with a STI or requested abortion or emergency contraception I refused to answer! It’s absolutely none of their business! I’ve been asked about periods and menopause in a consult about migraine. There’s never been a link with my hormones and migraine!

  45. Julie, take a look at this – UK Training PDF:

    Click to access NHS_Cervical_Screening_Progamme_-_guidance_for_cervical_sample_takers.pdf

    G6: Taking a clinical history
    Questions should be asked about:
     the date of last menstrual period (LMP)
     any abnormal bleeding, ie intermenstrual, menorrhagia, post-coital, post-menopausal
     any unusual vaginal discharge
     contraceptive use
     use of HRT
    D11: Other circumstances for ceasing from cervical screening
    A woman may only be permanently ceased from the cervical screening programme for one or more of the following reasons, if:
     she has no cervix (for example, women with a total hysterectomy, women with congenital absence of the cervix, or male to female transsexuals (trans women)
     she has had radiotherapy to the pelvic area for cancer of the cervix, bladder or rectum
     she has undergone a radical trachelectomy for cervical cancer
     she is over 65 with one or more abnormal results in her last three adequate tests but her GP or gynaecologist advises that she no longer requires screening
     she has asked to be ceased from the screening programme (informed choice)
    D1: Making an informed choice
    All women must be given the opportunity to make an informed choice about whether or not to attend for cervical screening. The decision should be based on an understanding of:
     why they are being offered screening
     what happens during the test
     the benefits and risks of screening
     the potential outcomes (including types of result, further tests and treatment)
     what happens to their screening records
    If a woman is provided with the above information about the programme and chooses not to attend screening, then this is a valid choice and must be respected.

    I hope this is of benefit to you in making your choice heard, good luck!

    • Thanks Chas and to you all for your advice. I noticed on the quality outcome framework document you recently linked, Chas, that where it mentions women choosing to cease from the programme it states “the criteria requires that discussion has taken place between patient and practitioner before ‘informed dissent’ can be recorded”. This is a little bit different to the casual statement in my recent invitation saying “It’s your choice whether to have screening or not, if you decide you don’t want any more invitations, you can opt out.” As we all know, it’s not quite as simple as the leaflet suggests.

      • You’re very welcome Julie. Apparently us stupid women need counselling to make our own decisions, however the same does not apply to men…..or to any other elective optional test, just us women…………clearly we are walking time bombs full of disease LOL! Really! Anything in healthcare that has a target and payment incentive takes centre stage as they need the money that it brings, however at the cost of all the real problems have and need help with, truly disgusting.
        My own father was convinced to have an operation (NO SYMPTOMS) for a 2cm colon cancer, 6 ops, comas and sepsis, unlikely to have given him any problems in his lifetime at the age of 76. It ruined him and he left hospital 8 months later with a colostomy bag and in very poor health and terrible quality of life. This year in May he passed away, probably caused by all of the supposed good health care they think he got!
        Have a lovely weekend everyone!

      • sorry about your dad Chas. that is awful. the hospital should be sued. your are right ,health care is is only concerned about making a profit. Don’t care about the individual

    • Chas that’s awful about your Dad! Im really sorry. I had a listen to the link you posted to the Margaret McCartney show and maybe the tide is turning? The comment about a 45 year old pre diabetic who can make changes as opposed to the frail 86 year old who won’t benefit much fro changes and won’t live long enough to develop the complications? Let’s see where we go from here….

      • I’m very sorry to hear that you lost your father this year, Chas.
        As well as the incentive payments and targets what also concerns me are the waiting times which UK hospitals must keep to or face penalties. Suspicion of cancer puts you on a two week wait to first hospital appointment, then treatment must be carried out within 62 days if suspicion still there. It puts you on a conveyor belt of deadlines, rushed appointments with no information on options as hospital needs to operate within 62 days or else…
        Patients are shoved through the system without a clue what is going on…
        So sad.

  47. Some doctors try to insist on the counselling session to try and brainwash you into staying on the programme but it’s not a requirement legal or otherwise. Once they have the opt out letter they’re legally obliged to cease you. I certainly never attended a counselling session…

    • Kat, I contacted your program about these counselling sessions a couple of years ago, a UK woman who posted here, was told she must attend a counselling session with two doctors before she could opt out of cervical screening. Naturally, she was very concerned, they obviously think by ambushing women, they can overwhelm them and keep them testing.
      It came back…this sounds like an over-zealous doctor, and they confirmed there was no counselling requirement. I knew that already but wanted to hear them say it…

      Of course, the way this testing is presented to women, hardly surprising some women go along with these demands. Of course, there can never be a legal requirement for counselling to opt out of an optional screening test. This, like most things, is a try-on, everyone goes along with it to protect the program, it’s yet another example of the complete lack of respect for women and our legal rights.

      Chas, sorry to hear about your Dad, my mother has mental issues thanks to her last colonoscopy, I dropped Mum at the hospital and collected a very confused woman a few hours later. Sedations and GAs are not a good idea when you’re older, say over 50, it should only happen when it’s really necessary – not sure if it was all the sedations or whether Mum had a small stroke during the procedure – it was probably the latter, Mum takes a blood thinning medication for an arrhythmia of the heart, that drug had to be stopped a couple of days before the procedure. My mother has never made up that ground – there will be no more screening colonoscopies, but the damage has been done. These things are never “simple” tests, many end up worse off.

      • Elizabeth a session with TWO doctors about smears when the NHS is short staffed and nearly broke! And as you say a disgusting way to ambush and coerce women! Sorry about your mum. Modern medicine has a lot to answer to

  48. Hi, I’ve just ‘penned’ my letter (literally, as my printer’s not working!) for the second attempt at ceasing from the programme. I’m quite happy with it (thanks to advice and information on this website) and have quoted the Data Protection Act 1998, so I’ll wait and see what happens…

    • Julie if all else fails and I hope it doesn’t on the Phe England blog how do we help ppl decide if screening is right for them there’s a link to a complaint form to fill and send them if you are pestered are out screening after you’ve sent your opt out letters..

  49. Julie hope all goes well for you. I think its just appalling we have to jump through these hoops and quote data protection act and the law to opt out of an optional test we were …dragooned into in the first place without our express permission or “invitation ” lol…

    • https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2017/08/30/health-matters-making-cervical-screening-more-accessible/

      The arrogance of all this. They finally admit they’ve got to offer women an informed choice on this, then, when the numbers decline the derogatory comments and accusations of embarrassment come out. The fact that women may have found out they have a zero risk, is dismissed as them failing to see the importance of screening. Biggest single factor for non-attenders is previous bad experiences, but this and severe pain or even miscarriage, isn’t even being addressed. Oh well, they’ll just have to carry out more expensive research until they get the results they want to find to justify their jobs…

  50. Depressing Ada isn’t it? We have choice but they’re still talking about raising awareness! I think even the aliens on Mars are aware of it now. And embarrassed. .again? Maybe they’d go if they could self test? No teach ehem not to be embarrassed. And actually they didn’t mention self testing!

  51. Thank you everyone for your condolences x
    Now they are asking GP’s to reduce referrals with incentives……but not for screening!
    http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/clinical-news/gps-to-be-asked-to-peer-review-all-referrals/20035161.article
    CCGs are formulating plans to scrutinise practices’ referral systems after a leaked NHS England memo showed they have promised to incentivise peer review schemes in order to reduce referrals by 30%, Pulse has learnt.

    Thank you adawells for the link – what a waste of valuable money and time spent on this rubbish.
    I don’t want our local authority poking their nose where the sun don’t shine! It is not up to them to encourage/coerce/bully us women as we do have minds of our own.

    “This edition of Health Matters outlines how local authorities, Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs), and GPs can all play a key role in raising awareness of cervical screening and encouraging women to attend screening.”
    “there were still 726 deaths from the disease in England in 2014 and a total of 890 in the whole of the UK.”

    That led to another link, I think this totally takes out the “informed choice” route!
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-matters-making-cervical-screening-more-accessible/health-matters-making-cervical-screening-more-accessible–2
    “Local authorities can work directly with GP surgeries to raise awareness of screening as well as through:
    •local resident magazines, issuing press releases and using digital channels such as social media
    •posters and information across a wide range of venues including hairdressers, pharmacies, libraries, gyms, children’s centres, job centres and public toilets
    •directly with women in their communities
    •through targeted information provision”

    • That vomitable cervical screen 1 website advocates beauty therapists getting in on the act. As women get their vaginas out for waxes act presumably not embarrassed there they’re the perfect ones to talk about smears and hassle the client to have one.Since women also have genital piercings maybe the piercing parlour should also get in on it too!

  52. I had a few thoughts recently & would like to share them. I don’t know what this subject matter would be called, but here it is:

    I was thinking about how the Ben Franklin Principle & the Consistency Principle (which I’ll explain next) seem to be things that are at work when women & girls get corralled into things at a doctor’s office.

    (1) The Ben Franklin Principle is basically getting someone to do something that matches a particular situation to try to create a mindset that matches that situation. Ben Franklin would get his political rivals to do him little favors, the reasoning being that it theoretically matches them liking him & it would theoretically create a sort of Stockholm Syndrome.

    (2) The Consistency Principle is simply the idea that the more someone does something they’re more likely to do it again.

    Frequently you see cops using both principles when they’re asking an intended target: “Can you get up for me?” “Can you sit down for me?” “Can you come here for me?” All this “for me, for me, for me” is meant to get someone to think that they like this person & are supportive of their actions toward them, as is supposedly proven by all the times they’ve done “favors” for them in the past.

    So, if a woman is doing all kinds of things again & again in a doctor’s office, isn’t that potentially having an effect? It sinks in as “I’m on board” or “What they say goes” & doing things time after time makes it harder to stop. At least potentially.

    What do you guys think?

    • Alex, I find the whole manipulation thing regards cervical screening very creepy. It’s all been very carefully worked out in the UK, where we don’t have ObGyns. The Pap tests are all done by nurses at your local general practitioners office or you can go to a genitourinary clinic if you want.

      The nurses might be very nice, but like the police, it’s all a carefully rehearsed front. They may use terms like “my love” “my dear” at the end of every sentence. I don’t know what terms are used in the US, but everyone has their favourite terms when they want to baby someone. Then the language surrounding screening is carefully designed to make it appear a normality for everyone, like getting a haircut. The nurse approach always fosters a “we”re all girls together in this” feeling, and “I’m your best friend so you can tell me all about your sex life” and there’s something wrong with you if you don’t want to be girls together. Promotional literature is just like recruitment for the armed forces: they emphasize civic duty, cameraderie with womankind, and encourage the feeling of being part of a female herd, suggesting that those not joining are not real women. The talk must never reveal women have a choice and could decline. What really grates with me is that now that many women are declining, they are suggesting it is through ignorance and lack of knowledge about the test, when in fact the opposite is true. The nurses may be very nice people, but they often don’t know much about the test themselves and are in no position to answer questions about it that women may have if they are having doubts. The lack of knowledge in the front line keeps women from finding out more and prevents any in depth discussion about the test. Just what the vested interests want to keep the status quo.
      BTW I’m just off to visit New York for a few days. Does anyone know any cheap places to eat?

      • In NYC, no.

        If you’re in Massapequa on Long Island, Smokin’ Al’s is great & it’s a lot of food for restaurant prices.

      • I looked up info questioned my 88 yr old mother needing a mammogram. this is what I found

        Laura Corio, MDFollow Laura Corio, MD
        Laura Corio, MD
        Obstetrics & Gynecology
        24 Answers
        1,692 Helpful Votes
        49 Followers
        A.
        You always have to have a mammogram, every year, and it’s more important as you age, because the incidence of breast cancer increases with age, so that if a woman gets to the age of 85, she will have a 1 in 7 risk of breast cancer. So, a woman has to continue doing mammograms forever.
        This is bull to put some one that age through a mammogram.

      • Ada, enjoy New York!
        I think the weird attitudes with pap testing certainly pushed we toward the Medical Library and made me even more determined to protect my cervix from the craziness.
        Why the outrage? The anger? The strident stance taken by many women, doctors and others? Why did I feel so bad when women were talking about their Pap tests, why did they feel the need to speak in that manner? Many of these women were calm and rational on other topics.
        I’ve always felt mind control was used against women, it was all carefully engineered, I’ve read they consulted psychologists at the very start. The system knew most women would not want Pap tests, so they had to create the climate of fear and oppression so women who hesitated, were jumped on, silenced, admonished and even forced to test.

        I recall a female doctor asking me if I was “up with my Pap tests” when I was about 37, I only saw her once, we’d just moved house and I needed a repeat, think it was for a skin issue.
        I felt very uncomfortable but lightly said I didn’t have them, I considered myself low risk, the cancer was rare…well, it was like throwing a switch in the consult room.
        I thanked her for my repeat and got up to leave, she then said, “you SHOULD be having Pap tests”. I left the room quickly, but the thing that stood out to me, she’d been fine during the consult, chatting about the suburb, nice market, but instantly changed when pap testing was rejected…and it was the contained anger in her voice that was most disturbing – why did she feel so strongly about a screening test for an always rare cancer? Why did my rejection of the test apparently amount to nothing? Why was optional being treated as mandatory?
        I don’t think screening incentives were in place at that time.

        I’ve always felt these highly emotive and aggressive attitudes were irrational, were out of whack with the risk of the cancer and the likelihood of benefit from the test – and what about the risks – false positives, excess biopsies, over-treatment.
        I feel this program used an approach similar to the brainwashing we’ve seen through history, when those in power wish to control a target population – you control the “information” released to them and others, you shape thinking and attitudes using propaganda, you make abuse somehow okay because it’s for their own good or what’s best for the country etc.
        When women are denied a voice and a say in what happens to their body, it amounts to serious abuse. I’ve never considered our programs to be screening programs, they’re a different beast entirely…

  53. Ada have a lovely break. And you’re right about our screening programmes creepiness and “girls club” mentality. I’m notorious for reading stuff and not noting sources but I remember a practice nurse commenting on a blog. She worked In an inner city deprived estate and I think she felt the patients were..shall we say a bit rough. She said when they came for smears she was always nice as pie as if they were her best friends. Not because she particularly cared about them or wanted to put them at ease but she was more scared if the smear hurt or was problematic.. What their reaction would be?! Talking with their fist maybe?!
    I left a comments on PHE pointing out I didn’t think awareness or embarrassment was the problem but why not send surveys to service users is women asking for their views on the programme and pointing out is a choice so why be surprised if they don’t to? I think I’m now on their blacklist… As to the all girls together… Blergh!

    • Hold up, I don’t get something: this is marketed as some lesbian bonding thing? I don’t get the sisterhood angle- they’re not being very sisterly, after all.

      • Let me add to that: sisters don’t, to my knowledge, do stuff like that with each other. Am I missing something here?

      • Hi Alex…no not a lesbian bonding thing and your right women as in the sisterhood context don’t act “mean” to each other over smears ect. Linda said in her book part of the sisterhood is about getting the word out about smears to other women and to support them if they’ve had a hard time of it.
        Smears are presented by the powers that be as “just part of being a woman”, that its something all women have to do and as Ada said its part of the herd mentality. If you don’t take part you’re ostracised and ridiculed. It’s presented as a no brained..why wouldn’t you? Why won’t you join this exclusive women’s club? Why won’t you open up to this nice nurse who asks you I trusive questions while she’s violating your vagina doing your smear?

      • Ah, I see. Has anyone tried the tact of saying: “So I’ll turn into man if I don’t get these tests done?”

        And then, “Well, I’d be a lot stronger than the nurse, then- wouldn’t I?” Makes the point that the nurses put on all kinds of pressure & whoever’s speaking would now have more emotional fortitude to turn them down.

        A third possible option is the ask: “So if I get more of these tests than every other woman, do I rule all of womankind?” Kind of an odd question for a female to ask, I suppose, but it makes a point about there being a social dynamic at work- instead of people plotting their own course of action or even basing decisions on medical viability.

      • Alex three very good points and comments! Just goes to show the logic built around this test by the powers that be is complete b…….

      • All of this pap smear sisterhood crap gets me so sick that I rather not hang around my female friends anymore; All they freaking do is talk about gynecologists and put me down for not having these exams. Many don’t even want to be around me because of it anymore. You’re all correct, it’s like a damn cult! My male friend with Asperger’s is probably the only one who even cares to be my friend anymore. Why should I have to submit to getting medically raped just to have friends?

        By the way, I wonder just how likely you can get cervical cancer as a 25 year old virgin who has never had any sexual contact whatssoever, therefore has never been exposed to hpv, and has never smoked either?

  54. SULTS

    The mean age of the 216 women was 81 years. Sixty-three percent were Asian, 91% were dependent in at least 1 activity of daily living, 49% had cognitive impairment, and 11% died within 2 years. Thirty-eight women (18%) had abnormal mammograms requiring further work-up. Of these women, 6 refused work-up, 28 were found to have false-positive mammograms after further evaluation, 1 was diagnosed with ductal carcinoma in situ (DCIS), and 3 were diagnosed with local breast cancer. The woman diagnosed with DCIS and 1 woman diagnosed with breast cancer were classified as not having benefited, because screening identified clinically insignificant disease that would not have caused symptoms in the women’s lifetimes, since these women died of unrelated causes within 2 years of diagnosis. Therefore, 36 women (17%; 95% confidence interval [CI], 12 to 22) experienced burden from screening mammography (28 underwent work-up for false-positive mammograms, 6 refused further work-up of an abnormal mammogram, and 2 had clinically insignificant cancers identified and treated). Forty-two percent of these women had chart-documented pain or psychological distress as a result of screening. Two women (0.9%; 95% CI, 0 to 2) may have received benefit from screening mammography.

    CONCLUSION

    We conclude that screening mammography in frail older women frequently necessitates work-up that does not result in benefit, raising questions about policies that use the rate of screening mammograms as an indicator of the quality of care in this population. Encouraging individualized decisions may be more appropriate and may allow screening to be targeted to older women for whom the potential benefit outweighs the potential burdens.
    Using elegy women as genuine pigs terrible

  55. Hi Diane
    My 85 year old mother is now out of screening, we don’t want her remaining years to be a medical experience, every “abnormal” result also causes fear and worry. If you screen an older person, you’re very likely to find something “abnormal”, will it lead to their death?
    I’d say you’re more likely to die with your abnormality, than from it. (and you might have multiple “abnormal” results at 80+) Actually, I think (screening) “abnormal” findings are usually nothing to worry about at any age.
    Mum will obviously respond to symptoms, but no more fishing expeditions, we feel there’s a strong possibility she’s already had at least two unnecessary surgeries, they alone could have taken her life, and they certainly took months that she’ll never get back, recovering from the surgery, getting her medication straight again, building up her strength etc.

    My mother had a lesion/cancer removed from her bowel, it was picked up by a screening colonoscopy, would it have taken her life? Who knows, but when you know it’s there, most people will have the surgery. Mum failed to thrive after the surgery and we almost lost her.

    After that…it was follow up screening, has the lesion/cancer returned? That scan picked up “something” on her left kidney. Gilbert Welch talks about the risk of picking up harmless kidney “cancers” during abdominal scans, he suggests you ask for a scan of your bowel only, not sure how that’s accomplished, most radiology centres check the entire area to ensure there has been no spread, I didn’t feel it was my call to limit the scan. (it might be different if it’s simply screening, not post surgery for a bowel “issue”)

    So my mother worried about the “kidney cancer” for a few months, she was still fairly weak after the bowel surgery – her specialist said they should watch and wait, of course, for many people it becomes watch-wait and worry, they feel they might have a ticking time bomb on board. The specialist also told Mum if it spread, he wouldn’t be able to do much for her.
    So naturally, Mum had the kidney removed – thankfully, she recovered from that surgery fairly well and her remaining kidney is working well.
    When they picked up “something” on her thyroid, not sure what they were checking at the time, my siblings and I felt we had to intervene – if Mum faces surgery to remove every “cancer” and “lesion” or other “abnormality”…well, what sort of life is that?
    We felt they’d kill her if we allowed it to go on and on…
    Mum seems to have moved on, we spoke to her GP, he spoke to Mum, she doesn’t seem to be concerned about her thyroid, but that could partly be due to her early-mid dementia.
    As I mentioned earlier, the confusion/memory issues started after a screening colonoscopy – probably a small stroke on the table.
    If I get to 85, I can assure you I’ll be doing all I’m capable of doing, and that’s not sitting around waiting for the next screening test or in pre-theatre ready to have the next “abnormality” removed
    from my body!

    • thanks for your reply. prayers for your mom. I am with you , I will never sit around for screening test. I don’t know. My mom goes to Dr s way too much. Its way of getting attention I feel.
      We are not close these Dr’s make her more crazy than she is. she is a narcissist.
      Bad enough she dragged me to shrinks as kid, wanted a diagnosis. ( I am a chronic Dr phobic).
      I don’t cholesterol pills, do screenings. my parent re in there 80’s and 90’s and have high colesrol.
      The is another medical sells the US.
      I am 58 and healthy do take a natural thyroid med. I stay away from Drs ! Saves me so much anxiety!

    • Screening leads to overdiagnosis. Where have we heard this before.

      Thyroid cancer is overdiagnosed. I can find many articels about that trend. https://thyroidresearchjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13044-015-0020-8
      People are told to first take cholesterol lowering drugs, then the high blood pressure meds. They are told to reduce salt intake. The salt in North America needs to be iodized but by avoiding it and not supplementing the deficiency results in thyroid problems.

      You’d think that a person in their 80’s would want some peace and enjoyment but the dcotrs seem to scare and make money off the elderly more than ever. I was once told by some religiojs person that god promises the faithful three score and a dozen years so every year after 72 is just bonus. If they worried about where they were going after that then they were not faithful.

      Fine to not like doctors touching you. I hate having people touch my hair. I never cut my hair, not for years. People think that is weird.

      • in florida Dr’s over charge elderly patients all time. constant cases of medicare fraud. people like my mom who have enough to pay Dr are getting constantly going Dr. apts.

    • I hope we all live 100 years and can tell everyone what we had to endure with this screening crap. It’s a story that must go down in history. Every time I see something on the Papanicolaou’s test being a great invention I think just how many lives has it has really saved, and whether it is more than the lives lost and blighted through unnecessary treatment, hysterectomies, preterm births, miscarriages, etc

  56. Elizabeth, I too have found that at a consultation with a nurse or Dr, as soon as you reject their offer of a smear test, their whole attitude and demeanour changes. They seem to go from “nice and friendly” to openly hostile just because I have said no to them. Luckily for me I am more than capable of shutting them down but I can imagine how intimidating it must be for a younger or more vulnerable person.

    • Its tough when you are vulnerable anxious and afraid to speak up. I have had horrible treatment my medical office staff. those ‘ bitches”. think they re so powerful. They don’t respect patients boundaries, ” they don’t understand ” don’t touch me”. I am not nasty just very anxious and don’t like being toughed. I agree you down a screening or a medication the whole attitude changes.

    • There are charities that sew reusable cloths for menstruation. It was pointed out to me by some charity mission workers that some women have absolutely nothing to use when they menstruate. They are so poor and lack even clean drinking water. They have a lack of hygeine due to no toilet facilities and often stuff leaves or dirt up their vaginas when they menstruate. Yes, that is shocking. Forget safe sex because how can anyone buy condoms?

      For the charities that sew the menstruation cloths they sew two types: one has a belt that can be used alone and the other is meant to be used with panties that also have to be provided. They provide instructions in how to use the pads and how to wash them and DRY them outside in the sunlight. So the belt types are often more useful because these come with a light colored cloth that is folded up to use and could more easily be washed and hung outside to dry. These sewing instructions can be found online. I might find a link.

      I hate that funds are spent pushing cervical testing when they might be better used to build latrines, promote diapering, resusable SANITARY menstrual pads, and condom use.

  58. Thank you adawells for that link, interesting part to note just under the sanitary picture:
    “Poor genital hygiene has been found to be an important factor for the development of dysplasia and cervical cancer, and the use of pads made from reused cloth increases that risk, studies have shown. ”
    I have never heard any GP/Nurse/Study mention this, it has always been HPV focused only – AGAIN we are being lied to! So DNA can be extracted from blood….and as we know urine. Also worth remembering that most real cervical cancer worldwide is from developing countries.

    • Chas,
      Certainly in this country, HPV has only been mentioned fairly recently, prior to that it was “all women are at risk if they’ve ever been sexually active”…

      Of course, that’s not true, only about 5% of women aged 30 to 60 are at risk in the developed world (those HPV+)
      About 40% of those under 30 are HPV+ but we know with their robust immune systems, they usually clear the virus on their own.
      In fact, most women, regardless of age, will clear HPV over time.

      For many years, pro-pap groups would claim that Africa had high rates of cc and we had lower rates thanks to our fabulous cervical screening program, this is deceptive and misleading – our rates were always much lower than third world rates, it was always a fairly rare cancer here, even before we started screening.
      I do wonder how many women have actually been saved by pap testing, I think the incidence would have fallen as more women gave up smoking, improved standard of living, fewer babies etc.
      There are no RCTs so we’ll never really know, the convenient guesstimates of lives saved don’t convince me, I do know FAR more women have been harmed by pap testing, even if a few have been helped.
      We know most women with HPV clear the virus within a year or 2, we’re also not sure why some women move from HPV to cervical cancer. Is it HPV and smoking? Is it HPV and an impaired immune system? Is it a combination of factors?

      There are more cases of cervical cancer in Africa for a lot of reasons, many add up to one thing: a poorer immune system, so they’re less able to fight off the HPV infection
      You cannot compare Africa with Australia or the UK or Canada…

      This is a good summary of the situation:

      “Persistent HPV infection is a necessary, but not sufficient, cause of cervical cancer. High parity, poverty, poor sexual hygiene, never schooling, multiple sexual partners, tobacco smoking, co-infection with human immunodeficiency virus, Herpes simplex virus type 2 and Chlamydia trachomatis, immunosuppression, oral contraceptive use and dietary deficiencies of vitamin A are all co-factors that are necessary for progression from cervical HPV infection to cancer [3,4]. These co-factors are none, but the un-addressed prevailing public health issues in the undeveloped sectors of the world. Reducing poverty, improving the standard of living, achieving universal education, increasing investments in program aimed at preventing the development of unhealthy life behaviors and improving access to family planning methods can have immense medical, social and economical impact on these resource-constrained developing nations and far greater consequence of decreasing morbidity and mortality not only of cervical cancer but also of many preventable communicable and non-communicable human ailments. Intervention to reduce the occurrence of these non-HPV risk factors of genital malignancies may have profound impact on incidence of gynecologic cancers in developing countries.
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3805908/

  59. Another good read: http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/clinical/cancer/psa-based-screening-reduces-deaths-from-prostate-cancer-finds-new-review/20035219.article
    A re-analysis of available evidence has found that Prostate-Specific Antigen (PSA)-based screening does reduce deaths from prostate cancer.
    The findings, published today in the Annals of Internal Medicine, defies existing UK guidance which does not currently recommend universal screening. Although the findings suggest that current guidelines – recommending against routine PSA-based screening – may be revised, the researchers point out that questions remain about how to implement screening so that the benefits outweigh the potential harms of over-diagnosis and over-treatment.
    In the UK, the NHS’s resistance to screening for prostate cancer is based on a recommendation made by the UK National Screening Committee.
    ‘However, the real question is not whether an occasional death can be prevented, but whether the costs to men’s physical and mental health caused by the inevitable over-diagnosis and over-treatment can be justified. The present evidence is that it cannot.’

    Oh but of course, the point about Men’s physical/mental issue is important – its a shame the same does not apply to women! Any biopsy or treatment could also cause sepsis followed by death but again never a mention to women going through colposcopy!
    Don’t forget to read the health professionals comments

    • It would be very interesting to see how this pans out. I get the distinct impression that the NHS would rather screening hadn’t been invented for anybody older than a newborn baby. I think this is why screening has been put under the umbrella of Public Health England. They seem to have separated it from mainstream healthcare, as it’s now part of additional services which GP’s can choose not to offer. Preparation for privatising perhaps? I think Virgin Healthcare seems to have bought up a lot of sexual health clinics. As article says, it’s all the private health companies which are running a ton of screening programmes. I sense primary health care being broken up and privatised.

  60. Hi ladies!can I draw your attention to the latest from PHE blog screening inequalities and what we’re doing about them. Its nauseating. They admit that some people do not wish to screen or be treated. They then bang on about informed choice and about providing high quality info. People who don’t screen might with better info. Then the usual poor people bame groups ect don’t screen . Also men are less likely to take part probably because they’re not pestered Like we are.. Cervical screening is of course held up as an example with PHE teaming up with Jos trust at cervix savvy workshops in areas of low take up to brainwash thousands of women…they’re now looking at ways of increasing uptake in all programs including texting screening appointment reminders instead of letters..and I thought screening was a choice!. Soon they will be teaming upqith CRUK and other charities to increase pestering to improve uptake of mammograms and bowel screening!

    • Kat, every time I look at the PHE screening blog I see your posts published, but I can’t get any of mine past the moderator! I have another one in moderation so I expect to get the email from them soon that they can’t print it! I’ve read the new blog and see what you mean. The postal bill for the NHS programme must be substantial. If 1 million women don’t attend every year after 3 letters that’s probably costing nearly £2 million every year alone, so I know they want to switch to texting where possible, but I don’t think they can do so without your permission that you want to be contacted in this way. They’re really piling the pressure on young women, as I’ve read in many places that if they don’t attend when young, they’ll have lost them for good.

  61. Ada I tried to leave a reply today but it got wiped! No sign of it even in moderation. Imagine if they get a campaign ip for breast and bowel screening. ….be breast brave. .have a mammogram! Don’t end up in the s…! Have bowel screening. .. and be cervix savvy

    • What gets me about this latest campaign is the big drive to increase uptake in screening amongst the disabled. The disabled will have far more contact with the Medical profession than anyone else due to their being disabled, so this group would have had far more opportunities to be screened than able bodied patients, had these people wanted it. They are either likely to have declined or carers decided that it is inappropriate for them, yet the screening zealots are set on calling this an inequality that must be corrected.

  62. I looked on Jos about cervix savvy. It disgustingly uses the 220,000 abnormal smear results to try to scare women into testing. It doesn’t state it’s due to the inaccurate test or that a tiny % of results go on to be cancerous

    • I find this charity so utterly offensive, their campaigns treat women like sexual little girls, and the way they sexualise cancer makes me feel quite ill. There is something quite perverse about this whole outfit.

  63. It’s all about targeting the weak! I am just reading this now and thought you may wish to read from the Jo’s site….YUK!

    Click to access cervical_screening_in_the_spotlight_-_final.pdf

    Targeting young women, Targeting women with a learning disability, Targeting refugee women, Targeting Black, Asian and minority ethnic groups, Targeting surgeries with low coverage, Practice Cancer Champion Programme, Screening coordinators working directly with GP practices, Training non-clinical cancer champions, Training frontline healthcare and support staff – it just goes on and on!
    just an example here:
    Training non-clinical cancer champions
    The Heywood Middleton and Rochdale Public Health Team and CCG, and the Greater Manchester
    Screening & Immunisation team have worked together to train 20 non clinical cancer champions.
    These champions undertake activities including following up patients who fail to engage in cancer
    screening programmes, assisting in the development of radio adverts to be played in local gyms,
    discussing take up rates of service with CCG Primary Care leads and attending the Practice Nurse
    Forum to promote actions they can take to increase uptake.
    Training frontline healthcare and support staff
    Dudley Council has delivered workshops for GP staff, including receptionists and practice
    nurses on how to improve interaction and patient experience when booking cervical screening,
    share best practice and identify opportunities to raise awareness of cervical screening. They
    also delivered training to student midwifes, Healthy Living Pharmacies and optician staff who
    identified opportunities within their own roles or organisations to raise awareness.

    If a Gym, Receptionist, Pharmacy or Optician approached me about this I think I would without a doubt go mad at them! It’s bad enough as it is without this kind of pressure, it’s complete nonsense!

    • It made me feel ill when I started reading this, but about halfway through I realized just how desperate this charity sounded. GPs are in such short supply, they really don’t have the time to listen to these campaigners. I know someone who goes around GP practices and they don’t have the time of day to do this additional stuff. I can imagine they’re treated politely but glad for them to go. They may have volunteers who stuff a few leaflets here and there, but who looks at it and it’s been done before and the uptake still falls. This charity is always blowing it’s own trumpet, I got the impression a lot of this is very low level stuff that goes in the bin once they’ve gone. The NHS services are now so fragmented no-one knows who should be doing it anymore. There is a lot of apathy for continuing with these campaigns, I sense the half of authorities that are not doing so (what a joy to read that so many are doing nothing!) are using the fragmentation of services to quietly bury the scheme altogether. I hope so.

  64. I read the article with horror. This cancer charity is actively promoting forcing different groups of women into screening. They behave like Nazis towards screening. I shudder to think if they had more power than they already have. They would be frog marching us to our screening appointments. How can they continue this line when PHE is supporting the notion of ‘choice’ at long last?

    Do they not understand what it was like to feel you have no choice but to go through with this examination. It feels like rape. According to the law – it is rape!!!!

  65. Oh my days Ada screening zealots who hammer their theme to busy GPs! Linda hi hope your good and I agree its Nazis but if they do as threatened and work with charities to increase uptake of breast and bowels screening men could possibly be chased and told don’t be embarrassed… Oh you’re here with a cough? Well before I deal with it you really must sign up for flexi SIG….
    I seemed to remember reading about the amazing cervix savvy road shows being pilloried and researched. I was right. In 2008 Jo’s trust teamed up with Camden council and there were numerous complaints from outraged women. As I recall the campaign was featured using MEN telling them about their cervix. The men were pictured as having faces. Women supposedly reporting their experience of Cc weren’t even names and had a silhouette. No photo. Women felt this was patronizing and that it was somehow shameful to have the disease and be such a pariah you weren’t even named. And were these actual women or made up propaganda? Worst was to come when they ran a series of” excuses ” for not having smears which were then rubbished. You’re never too busy for your haircut every 6 weeks. Smears are 5 mins every 3 years blergh. Then there was ” because its disgusting” and horrifically JO’S TRUST ANS CAMDEN COUNCIL agreed.. Not disgusting for the woman mind but for the POOR doc or nurse carrying out the test on these women’s disgusting vaginas! When they’d have us believe its like our eae or arm to them? And poor body image and embarrassed women is also supposed to be a barrier?? This reason was removed and the campaign altered. It would b funny if it wasn’t.. DISGUSTING!

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