3,978 comments

1. Cholesterol is required to make testosterone. Disturbing that balance with statins really disturbs me.

   Really, I am sick of doctors threatening to drop patients for not doing some cancer screening or taking certain medication. I responded with “please put that in writing, why you are dropping me, sung it and I will pick up the letter”. The doctor never did it and was surprised when I came back. Maybe some will do what they threaten but they should be reported if they drop patients for no good reason.

   • I’m not sure they SHOULD be able to drop patients, simply because of the potential for coercion. They use it as an angle to try & hi-jack people & impose their own decisions on them- whatever they happen to be.

     Flat salary (at a low rate), no incentives, no ability to drop patients, and- of course- no option for iatrogenic detriment. That sounds like a good plan, doesn’t it? Not good for people that want to be hostile through medicine, but that’s a good thing.

   • Cholesterol, namely the “bad” one is also needed to metabolize vit D. Taking statins to lower “bad” cholesterol then interferes with the bodies absorption of vit D which then leads to a greater risk of certain cancers. It’s also now well known that cholesterol is not a cause of heart disease and stroke. But I guess the medical community is ignoring that very important fact.

2. I checked it out and the official professional org says that doctors can only drop patients for serious issues such as the patient threatened to harm them or their family, or the doctor is moving or ill and has to reduce their work load or there is a serious breakdown in the relationship. Some are even paid a premium for taking on patients with “complex issues” or mental illnesses. They are supposed to drop patients for not following their instructions or refusing to make “lifestyle changes”. The better way to deal with it is not to be argumentative. You also need to educate yourself. You don’t like the prescription then do not fill it or do not take it. The doctor/patient relationship is supposed to be a partnership built on trust.

   • I don’t understand- you said they’re only supposed to drop them for one set of reasons, but then that not following their instructions or making “lifestyle changes” are reasons too.

     Personally, I think they have too much discretion with their own actions. It SOUNDS good that someone decides what their own actions are, but then they decide that someone is oppressing them by not letting them run their lives. “I make my own decisions,” can cover both sides of this situation, but they mean vastly different things. It’s interesting that their style of medicine likes to dictate & the other ones generally don’t. The doctors & other medical personnel also tend to act like they’re in competition with the patient- like they’re trying to “outscore” the patient.

     Seems their self-esteem tends to ride on “outmatching” the patient & overturning their initiative. This would be a dangerous sign out of anyone else- certainly a woman would worry about dating someone like that. Same if their daughter was thinking of being with someone like that. If my daughter was saying how someone basically thinks that they outmatch her decisions & that the impetus of her actions hinges on their approval- I’d tell her to not be anywhere near them, much less be behind closed doors with them.

   • It is also in the Dr’s ethics that they have to provide care until the patient is under the care of another Dr. Dr’s also ethically have to respect a patients wishes to decline medical care of treatment or tests If a Dr refuses to provide care and drops a patient because of their declining a treatment or test and that patient is now without access to healthcare a complaint can be made to the medical board. If my Dr refused to treat me because I declined an optional screening test I would be asking them to put that in writing and then filing a complaint.

3. I see doctors’ loss of autonomy under Obamacare as very positive:
   “Doctors understand that their professional autonomy will be diminished by ObamaCare. They also know that their incomes will drop. This will affect their personal lives. In anticipation of these changes, many physicians have already sold their practices to hospitals. Many have decided to retire early.” http://www.conciergemedicinemd.com/blog/2013/08/21/does-it-matter-if-your-doctors-oppose-obamacare/
   I am hopeful that the statement “professional autonomy will be diminished” means fewer unnecessary and harmful “tests” and “treatments”.

   • Yeah, that might be good. It might also mean that they get directed to do all the things they already did to begin with. Not much way to know, since the wording is pretty vague & frequently the government says all kinds of things and does something else.

   • Does that mean Obamacare will weed out all the greedy assholes? Good!
     Hopefully this means that medicine will attract a new breed of people who go into medicine to help people and not for the money. I am so sick of reading about doctors complaining how many years they put in to get where they are. So what ? Nobody twisted their arm.I would rather spend my life learning more and more (and then being rewarded) than being stuck in the same job or position all my life anyway, so I don’t understand what they are complaining about. If making money is their sole motivating they should have gone into banking.
     I’ve seen plenty of studies that show female doctors earn less than male doctors. I think they aren’t motivated by money as much as men are and as more and more women enter the field there’ll be less whining by this kind of doctor. Good riddance.

4. This is a quote from a Health Authority in the UK, that is aiming to improve the cervical screening uptake by eligible women age 39 to 64.

   “The telephone call from a nurse and the letter from a celebrity to encourage attendance for cervical screening were neither effective nor cost-effective in women with a prolonged history of non-participation in the screening programme”.

   Has the Authority given any consideration to the idea that some woman may have made an informed decision NOT to be screened?

   Why do HCPs think that mature, intelligent women would be impressed or influenced by a letter from a celebrity?

   • Too right. I’m so glad this pathetic scheme failed. Amazing that they have no end of money for such daft ideas, yet elderly people and those in real need have to get by on long waiting lists.

5. I did find one article “how to divorce a difficult patient and live happily ever after”. Sorry I cannot put in the link. The example is a patient who gets an abnormal pap and is SENT for a colposcopy. They cancel the first appointment and then do not show up for another appointment. All this “not showing up” is going to be documented and they are supposed to seek legal counsel and send registered letter to fire the patient. Not sure that most doctors would bother.

   Another good reason for me to avoid getting a pap since I am never going for follow up. I will also try to avoid getting sick. If I get fired then it is back to walkin clinics again. I could not even get them to do paps when I asked. .???? What about patients using alternate treatments ????

6. Most the studies done of the unscreened show that they are uneducated, lower economic class, immigrant women. They are the people who have just a lower access to health overall. They are at risk for other disease more than cervical cancer for sure considering that their lack of resources might often prevent them from buying food regularly. However they might be motivated to participate in studies due to some “reward” such as free medical care, counselling etc. vaccines and drugs are tested on people in Africa.

   The rich, upwardly mobile and educated are not going to participate in the studies more often. They can also afford better food and alternative treatments, vitamins etc.

   I am sure there are few celebrities that never have Pap tests other than Jane Goody. For what I read about her is that she had a cone biopsy as a teenager and never submitted back to that routine.

   • Moo, I don’t know all the intimate details of Jade’s history, but she got pap tested at 16, got an *abnormal* (no surprises there), had treatment… rinse and repeat for several years. I don’t know what the treatments were, but she said she found them so painful and humiliating that eventually she couldn’t face any more. Even when she developed symptoms she buried her head in the sand. Can’t say I blame her there.
     So one could argue, in her case, that pap testing from such a tender age actually contributed to her death.
     http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/6384#.UncfMS1FA2w

     As for those immigrant women… maybe they come from cultures which still value the old-fashioned notion of female modesty and thus the crank n’ scrape test is out of the question?

   • I don’t see how deflecting an attack is a bad thing. An imposed interface with a sexual area is a self-defense issue, not a modesty problem. They’re not somehow down-trodden & immature for not letting someone infringe on them. I don’t know if that’s what you meant, but a lot of times a woman seems to be made out to be like a little old lady or just a joke if she doesn’t let someone do whatever they want to them.

     It’s not like she’s making sure someone isn’t touching their husband’s property or anything. What about with all that virginity test that they do in the Middle East? Are these girls/women somehow defective because they protest these situation? Of course not. It’s no different from a woman fighting back against someone taking a more direct approach & trying to snatch her up to aggressively play doctor.

7. An encouraging article in the CBC re HPV testing: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/more-invasive-cervical-cancers-prevented-with-new-test-1.2325972
   But the article fails to mention the fact that pap testing women under 30 is not done in the Netherlands – and the article also does not mention self-lavage systems for HPV testing or the fact that HPV can be tested via urine (Trovagene) http://www.trovagene.com/Products-Services/Clinical-Testing-Services/HPV.aspx

8. Vinegar and visual inspection is done as low cost alernative to Pap smears in India for 15 years. They will treat any lesions with cryo. It is not done by doctors just trained health workers who can go out to the remote villages. They use metal speculums that they wash in hypochlorite and boil. They use a flash light to see any white spots after the vinegar is applied.

   The vinegar is exactly the same chemical as acetic acid used in colposcopies before iodine is used.

   Although I do not like the speculum use and reuse, at least the cervix is not being scraped up like the Pap test does. Remember the peanut butter on a bagel analogy I used before. HPV needs abrasions to enter the basal cell layer. If a vinegar spray is used then there is no rubbing the HPV infected cells around either.

   What ever happened to the Veda scope?

   Easy enough that even North American doctors could do this AFTER a positive HPV urine test. Sorry but that SHOULD be the future of cervical cancer screening.

   tHROW the Pap test out.

9. Check out Cerviva diagnostics new cervical cancer test. It is a urine test, takes 30 minutes for the test , better accuracy, estimated cost $5 each.

   Their website states that conventional paps are 50% accurate. Too many women had cancer when their pa test was normal. They do not mentional all the women damaged by the false positive paps.

   When is this going to be available?

10. I was right. Pap tests do promote infection with HPV.
    Read this paper: http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/04/11/jnci.djr061.full
    “Although the incidence of cervical cancer has decreased, the rate of human papillomavirus (HPV) infection, the main cause of cervical cancer, has increased. Damage to the cervical epithelium such as that produced during a routine cytology screening procedure (Pap smear) may increase susceptibility to HPV infection.”
    “The procedure for collecting cervical cytology specimens, commonly known as a Pap smear, inherently disrupts the cervical epithelium. To effectively collect specimens for testing, the instrument used must dislodge cells from the deepest (basal) layer of the stratified squamous epithelium, the only layer in which low-grade dysplastic lesions are detectable. In addition, in the delicate tissue of the endocervix, which is a single layer epithelium, removing cells creates erosion that exposes the basement membrane to material in the endocervical canal. In a mouse model of HPV genital infection, we previously showed that this physical disruption of the endocervix leads to binding of pseudovirus (PsV) to the basement membrane and to a dramatic increase in susceptibility to infection (5,6). ”

    Stop spreading around HPV, doctors, like peanut butter on a bagel.

    I would not rush out to buy carrageenan based lubricants. There is some concern that they promote inflammation in the digestive tract when used as food additives. So what are they going to do in the vagina mucosa? Carrageenan is antiviral, so it kills HPV, HSV.

11. Just add this since I downloaded the above paper
    “Data from human studies are conflicting as to whether trauma may occur in the area of the transformation zone as a result of consensual intercourse. Recent consensual intercourse (<24 hours) was strongly associated with minor trauma of the genital mucosa, including the cervix, albeit on the forniceal surface thereof (12). However, magnetic resonance imaging of the anatomy of the coital act shows that the cervical os may not contact the male genitali"

    "The increase in cervical adenocarcinoma rates in screened Western populations, in which squamous cell carcinomas have fallen dramatically, remains unexplained (16–19). Although the rate of detection of adenocarcinoma in situ has increased in the United States, the risk of invasive cervical adenocarcinomas and related mortality has increased in white women younger than 50 years (16,19). Our findings raise the possibility that the increased use and frequency of cytobrush collection procedures to specifically sample endocervical cells may contribute to this increase. Cytobrush cell collection might render cells within the endocervical canal that are not normally traumatized susceptible to HPV infection."

    I said that ramming a brush up the cervical OS really was no good.

    At least there are some researchers out there with brains!!!!

12. I’ve always suspected that this *harmless* test could cause problems. Scraping at an internal organ, whether with a spatula or a stick, always sounded quite brutal. Maybe doctors don’t view it as a internal organ anymore.
    Our leaflet (the one that accompanies the summons – sorry, ‘invitation’) says that a brush is wiped over the cervix to collect cells. But then they also call the speculum a ‘small instrument.’ Yeah, right! Sugar coating everything to make it sound innocuous, as always. Same as calling it a ‘smear’ test rather than a crank & scrape!
    Anyway, here’s something you’ll find on the NHS screening site – I was just looking through it one day, snorting with derision at their *facts* when I stumbled across an FAQ section.
    Q: My cervical screening test result came back as inadequate. Why do I have to wait three months before repeating the test?
    A: This is because the evidence shows that the epithelium (lining) of the cervix needs at least three months to regenerate after a screening test.

    Funny that that little lump of meat (as they see it) takes so long to heal after a ‘gentle wipe’. When I’ve exfoliated my body, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t take three months for the skin to recover – but then I don’t end up sore and bleeding, unlike paps.

    One last thing. A non-conformist friend and I were talking about HPV recently, and she says it’s strange that whenever you mention condoms as a preventative, the ‘experts’ immediately claim they don’t offer any protection. If that’s true (which I don’t believe), and the HPV virus can pass through latex… well, surgical/exam gloves are sometimes made of latex, so maybe doctors could be spreading the virus during their useless ‘pelvic exams’. Conspiracy theory stuff, I know, but it would certainly add to their profit margins, eh?

13. I didn’t go for the 6-week postnatal check up cause I didn’t want to even hear about the pap crap. It is the time – the post partum appointment – when the woman is asked when she last had her pap crap – crank & scrape (BTW – very well said, Kate:) ).
    This is what they write about the postnatal check up: ”If required, cervical smear may be performed as early as 6-8 weeks. Routine tests are better delayed to 3 months post-delivery.” IF REQUIRED – do you feel it?! What bull…t.

    • It’s a general theme, isn’t it? The idea that they have a transformative influence on the situation & reality is reformed by their discretion. Not a good sign, but not currently seen as a cliche trait with doctors (like the drunken “red-neck” beating his wife is, for instance). The allopathic profession seems to be pretty much entirely that way, so it doesn;t matter what their specific specialty is- that’s how they’ll be (and, as opportunities allow, they’ll try to interject something pervy into the equation). That general theme of being sexually antagonistic is pretty common to that kind of personality, it’s just using “medicine” as a means. This is an “iatrogenic attack”- which I imagine if people knew that word & used it frequently it’d end a lot of camoflauging arguments (like when someone says “but they’re a doctor, though”).

      Another point is that they talk this way to younger girls in school, too- undermining their own autonomy.

14. More likely to have an abnormal pap test 6 weeks after birth due to hormonal changes. Put it off unless you had abnormals before getting pregnant or you have cancer. Or wait 6 months to a year if you do pap tests.

    The doctors are could not be spreading the virus through their gloves. More likely they are contaminating the gloves from surfaces in their offices: door handles, tables etc. But even when the virus infection is in the outer parts of the vagina or the labia it could be spread to the cervix by the doctor during any part of the exam.

    When cancer screening tests could cause cancer, I don’t want them.

15. I am not sure how many of you heard about the case http://boingboing.net/2013/11/09/feds-subject-drug-suspect-to-v.html where a lady was forced to have vaginal/anal probe, X-ray, CT Scan because it was suspected that she was carrying drugs. This case happened in El Paso, Texas

    It is horrible that this is happening in the US. I am very disappointed in the doctors who did not stand up for this woman’s rights.

    Misty

    • I’ve got a very serious question: What happens when you call the cops for any reason? Someone tries to attack you or yours (perhaps iatrogenically), and you call someone like this for assistance? They’re not going to like that one bit (since they’re fans of things going in the other direction). Same with going (or getting brought) to the hospital for any reason. What are you dealing with as far as quality goes? I know people always say things like “they’re not all like that,” but they really don’t all need to be.

      This is frequently suprising because the cops have (at least currently) a reputation as protectors and medical personnel as healers. This type of activity is neither & it causes a bit of a “does not compute” situation. It’s antithetical. They molest people procedurally and/or medically & act like that’s not deserving of attack.

      The concept of whatever they do is a method to doing something comes up all the time- but even when something is a means to an end, the components of a methodology don’t cease to exist in their own right. What also drives me nuts is that people do “damage control” & try to make the people that do these things look good in spite of whatever happens.

      You know what’s scary? I was going to BE military police when I was younger. I was actually one year away from being able to sign up!

      • In the US, cops will question all parties. You will likely be asked to have a rape screening performed. Afterward if the exam is negative, and the doctor claims along with his/her chaperone that nothing extraordinary occurred, you will be rated as a 5150. That’s CA’s code for an unbalanced individual.

    • This is the underside of US laws. In the “WAR” against terrorism, drugs, anything goes. Just like everything is fair in love and war. Same applies to child protective services. There is no place to go for secondary review. They do what they want; and always have a judge to rubber stamp it. It’s going to get far worse. TSA screenings are training us to accept this kind of Constitutional/personal violations. As do drunk driving checkpoints. The Patriot Act allows for everything we say and write to be copied and later reviewed.

      In the 60’s & 70’s, people openly questioned the establishment. Doing so now puts you onto at least one government “list” b/c now you’re legally considered a possible threat. The future? More centralization. Healthcare by government mandates is the beginning. Next cash will be foregone so computers can make sure everybody pays taxes. Afterward, just try rebelling. You’ll be the one isolated, like Sarah Palin has been for years ago calling out exactly what is happening today. Everybody here is consciously objecting to government regulations. Tomorrow you’re criminally obstructing.

    • “Secondary review,” never heard that term before. It’s a good one. What you’re saying does seem to be true & it’s very questionable what goes on in a hosptial setting. I definitely remember one woman on here talking about how she had a rape kit forced on her when she was younger & imposed rectal exams tend to be a common occurance in emergency rooms (with men & women- but probably with children, too).

      I remember that two of my cousins went to the hospital when they were little because they got hurt & they made them take all their clothes (supposedly, they wanted to see if they had any marks on them from being hit at home!). Isn’t it plausable that they’d do other things to “check” for signs of abuse? Look at what happened in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania- that was one of their excuses for forcing pelvic exams on a bunch of 11-year-olds. Suppose they just curious at random? Maybe they get suspicious of something simply because of mere suspectability & they figure they’ll investigate by whatever methods they deem fit?

      What about where they try to keep the husbands/partners out of the room? The woman wants them there so they don’t try to back her into anything or to make sure things don’t get out of line & they seek to counter that. Distrustable in the first place. They say they use these exams to check for spousal abuse, but maybe they get something wrong & they guy gets nailed for something he didn’t do. They’ve already disregarded the woman’s input entirely (when she says something isn’t like that or didn’t occur, it’s ignored- just like if she refuses something, that’s not a real refusal or it’s not a good enough answer).

      Just had another side-thought: What is the doctor going to do? Split the couple up if they don’t trust the guy?

16. I’ve had a couple of thoughts over the past few days I thought I’d share. The first being that screening for breast cancer targets women and so it’s thought to be a disease of women. I know of several people who thought that only women could contract HPV. This has led me to the troubling conclusion that by focusing so much on just women, men with genuine symptoms or concerns seeking care might have a more difficult time doing so or they might be told it’s nothing to worry about until they become very symptomatic and very progressed in whatever it is they’re dealing with. Now I’m not saying that screening for men is the answer, quite the contrary I believe in finding cures as the solution (preferably all-natural ones), and not screening. As I’ve mentioned in my previous comments, screening, when used at its best, only has the possibility of detecting abnormalities which may or may not be cancerous and can be misdiagnosed. Anyways, back to the point. I feel like the whole pink I love boobies campaign is a slap in the face to men who DO actually have breast cancer. It’s not just women who get it. Those campaigns are sexist and leave out a whole group of people who suffer from a disease. That leads me to a follow-up question, prior to screening, was the percentage of men and women with breast cancer close to being equal? I don’t personally know enough about it to know that, but it would be interesting to know. In regards to the second part of my first statement, men are being led to believe that HPV is nothing serious while some women believe that all HPV leads to CC and that men can’t contract HPV! There may be some men who believe that as well, but this sort of thing generally isn’t the type of conversation I go around having with men. Once again, I am not saying by any means that they should do more screening as screening is NOT a cure, I’m simply saying that by focusing so much on women, they are neglecting an entire group of people who may really need care. That led me to a final conclusion which made me feel disgusted; they only focus on cancers that can be screened for. It’s a terrible thing. They don’t focus on risk factor or what’s more common – it’s all about the screening programs. To me, that is very sad. Not only does it over-screen an entire population of people, some of which are at little-to-no risk for certain specific diseases, but it also takes the focus off of serious concerns that patients may have. Also, another interesting thing to me is that they only have screening programs which involve our most intimate parts as human beings. Think about it; pap smears, colonoscopies, PSA, breast cancer screening – they all involve intimate body parts, and yet there’s no screening for thyroid cancer (which is much more common) or lung cancer (while I don’t condone smoking, it would certainly be helpful for smokers and perhaps be a wake up call to some of them) or brain cancer or any sort of non-intimate form of cancer. I suppose colorectal cancers aren’t intimate, but the current screening method most certainly is. It just doesn’t seem right to me. They have the technology for non-invasive methods. If only everyone started demanding it.

17. Hi, I hope it’s ok to post here, I’m fairly new to the site and I’m so happy I came across it because it has been very helpful to me, as I come from a family that deems these things too private or “disgusting” to discuss, and I shy away from it.

    I have a story I’d like to share: I had my first gyno visit near the end of 2011. I did not have a pap exam because I was a virgin. I went in because I have very heavy debilitating periods and was given birth control. The following year I had to refill the prescription twice, and of course I had two options: come in for TWO pap exams, or go without the pills. So I went in for two pap exams in one year. At the top of 2012 I had another exam. Nearing the end of 2012 was my last exam (around October) and it was horrible. I didn’t understand why I had to keep having these exams considering I was not sexually active, and to this day I still am not (I think I may be asexual, but that’s another story!). I told my doctor my periods were still irregular and while not as heavy as before, they were still causing me to have to change occasionally. He got mad at me and told me it was my fault because I was lying about taking the pills. I was SO VERY confused as to why he thought this, because it was just so RANDOM and nonsensical? I was taking my pill every night at the same time. I have no reason to lie about this, what the heck? He went back and forth with me telling me I was lying. I just gave up talking at that point and sat back for the exam. He said to the nurse in the room, “Let’s make sure we get good and deep in there this time” which freaked me out. The nurse had a creepy smirk on her face (though to be fair, she always does…) and it was the most painful exam I have ever experienced. I actually yelped out a bit and grabbed the side of the exam bed. I got my prescription refilled and as soon as I left the office I started crying. Luckily no one else was in the hallway so I had time to compose myself before leaving the building. I don’t know if he did this because he was mad at me for arguing back? 😦

    I also wish to add that my blood pressure was too high. I know birth control can cause this, but my gyno never told me it was high. I found out through a new primary care doctor I went to last year. But he was hellbent on getting me to have these expensive invasive exams while not caring about something birth control actually affects, even though I don’t actually know if the birth control caused that spike.

    Between being mistreated and blamed for a health issue I didn’t ask for, and the comment he made before the painful exam, I have not gone back to him – or any doctor for that matter. At this point I’m scared, honestly, and I cry a lot still thinking about it. I told my family what happened and they did not care. My own mother told me I was just trying to find fault with everything and rolled her eyes. I did tell a close friend of mine who understood and was supportive, and I appreciate that so much..but I’m still torn up over this and I’m not sure what to make of it. Sometimes I feel like I am being ridiculous like my family says, but the fact that I’m terrified to even go back to a doctor means something.

    i just wanted to share, and maybe ask for some a advice. I have not had a period in the last year and the last time I checked my BP, it was normal. I’m just not sure how to cope with this or if I just need to get over it. Thanks everyone and thanks again for this site. Have a wonderful day

    (one more thing, I have had 2 pelvic ultrasounds and nothing showed up. A woman told me she was in a similar position and a vaginal ultrasound actually showed things that the pelvic missed. I am not sure how often this happens. I suspect PCOS is a possibility because I have a few skin tags and some facial hair growth, as well as weight issues.) sorry for the long post!!

    • Please tell us where you live. I want to make sure I avoid the jerk gyno you have. His “deep” painful exam was to “punish” you for “lying” about not taking the pills. Pure and simple. He might as well have dug a trench across your cervix. He’s positive you’re having sex. This was “his” way of showing you “he’s” in control and only “his” version of your life is factual.

      Could you find a sympathetic examiner to check for permanent cervix damage/scarring? Don’t disclose the real reason why you want the exam done again. Cervix scarring might earn him a rape w/foreign object felony charge. Since this was your first PAP, there also was no reason for him to go so deep. His intimidating advance announcement proves his harmful intent.

      You suffered assault and battery. So much for having another woman watch!! Proof the female nurse is the doctor’s friend. Maybe his lover too? Her mandate was to stop him when the exam produced such unreasonable pain. How could she approve of your torture? May God deal with both of them. I’m curious, was your appointment late in the day?

      In California, where I live, there is a Patient’s Bill Of Rights. And another separate HMO Patient’s Bill Of Rights. You have the right to be believed, and the right NOT to be harmed. Another right to be fully informed and consent in advance of anything.

      Besides yourself, who will suffer in the future for this exam? Your loved ones and friends. Never again go to an exam alone. In advance, sign a written release that you want this person as your advocate. If the doctor orders this person out of the room, immediately p/u your clothes and get out. Do not surrender the control you own. Your body; your exam. Don’t give in to any ultimatum about your advocate not being allowed in the exam. Remember, divide and conquer or united you stand.

      Read my older posts. My husband began going to my exams before our marriage. He insisted for my own meanness toward him come exam time. Now I can’t imagine having an exam w/o him either at my side or cautiously looking over my doctor’s shoulder, monitoring the exam. Nothing abusive will happen with him down there. He knows anatomy and what should/should not happen during an exam. And I prefer my husband watching the exam up close, if my examiner shows too much interest in keeping me covered with the stupid sheet.

      A couple years into our marriage a female physician’s assistant first asked my permission, and upon my approval showed him my cervix and explained the exam in detail. He reacted maturely and asked sensible questions. That was a learning experience for me. Finally I knew how an exam should take place.

    • “Let’s make sure we get good and deep in there this time” and the nurse had a smirk on her face? Yeah, I’d say that was deliberate. For Christ’s sake- that sounds like something from a rape scene in a movie. By-the-way: an external ultrasound pretty much entirely overlaps whatever you’d be looking for (plus, no disease potential- on top of invasiveness, in itself, as a problem).

      Your family is dead wrong for saying you’re being ridiculous. Next time it comes up, try mentioning this: Any interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack (it’s simply called an “iatrogenic attack” when it’s done through a medical methodology). After all, if a doctor poisoned someone with a needle, it’s still murder. What if someone were to snatch someone else up to go aggressively “play doctor?” Is that a non-antagonistic situation because of tact? Of course not. Another thing is that it’s not someone making their own decisions if someone else is lying to them (and that includes someone getting tricked into believing their alignment on a situation is NOT an influencial factor).

      Dynamics don’t change because standards do. That’s an observation that’s turned into a bit of a personal motto. An imposed penetration is an attack. There’s also numerous risks & inaccuracies that add to things with this situation. Does a woman have less of a miscarriage because it was medically caused? No, of course not.

      If you’re interested in handling your own health more self-sufficiently, Rosemary Gladstar has some good books & one of them is actually titled Herbal Healing for Women. Another good one is Herbal Recipes for Vibrant Health: 175 Herbal Recipes. Googling things might help, too. Just type things in like you’d say them if you’re at a loss for words. I definitely remember hearing about diet affecting hormone levels in a major way (particularly with estrogen) & that a lot of female issues actually stem from problems with the liver. The liver processes lots of things & if there’s too much or it’s not working up to par, it can cause a problem.

    • Hi again all, thank you for your responses and advice. It feels good knowing people support me, even though it still feels bad my own family does not, so I thank you for your words.

      Cat&Mouse- Your husband sounds wonderful, I only wish to have someone I can trust that much in my life! This doctor is located in Maryland. I totally forgot to mention I had a colposcopy to check for cervical cancer after he talked me into getting a pap done while I still had a little bit of bleeding from the end of my period. I gave in. Got a false-positive on the pap smear, went on to have the biopsy and it was extremely painful but luckily didn’t last very long. If I had to say what the pain was on a scale from 1-10, I’d give it a 9. I am not sure if this is normal. I started researching and found it was pretty much impossible for someone with my details of never being sexually active, at all, to get it as it’s caused by strains of HPV which is sexually transmitted.

      Alex- Thank you for the information on the ultrasound, as I tried googling for information and came up rather short. Maybe it was a coincidence for that person but they gave me similar advice, such as try a endocrinologist.

      Mary- I will definitely be writing reviews on this doctor, good lord if it will help another woman, then it is worth it. I e-mailed the medical board of the state the doctor is in and they told me I could file an anonymous report. I printed out the forum and it was..very overwhelming, I’ll say, and seemed like it would be a waste of time and thrown out. I will also be looking to the pharmacy to get a blood pressure machine for home.

      I’m not sure what to make of this situation but I get emotional daily thinking of it. I try to not let it consume me but when I go over everything that happened, it feels very wrong and I feel violated. I am kind of scared to find a therapist, because the first and only one i went to actually knew this gyno! I was shocked, to say the least, and of course the therapist turned out to be horrible. My mother helped my pay and she even agreed with me that the therapist was rotten. So at least I knew I was not crazy there (ha). I can laugh about it know but jeeze, you know? Small world. As for my pills, I will try to go to a PP to see if I can get them refilled WITHOUT an exam, and looking into contacting a endocrinologist for my hormonal issue. And dealing with what happened to me being assault. If any other woman told me this story, I’d see it as an assault, but it’s hard accepting it yourself. Mostly because the people around me will get into my head and convince me I’m just a “crazy hormonal woman”. While it has worsened anxiety issues I already had, I will not let this take over my life. So I want to thank you all again for being so lovely and supportive and for the advice and recommendations. You truly have helped me see the ‘little light’ at the end of the tunnel.

    • You’re very welcome, Alixa. It seems no one wanted to do anything like this for some people I was close to & I definitely start thinking about what the ambient environment would be (for me AND mine, if their ever winds up being any of the latter).

      If you’d like some more, here’s something you might find useful: Something I’ve noticed that is extremely frequent is the elevating of a problem into a non-issue (like someone saying “Oh, it’s nothing anyway” about a bad situation). Instead of properly demonizing a situation & moving foward, it’s sugar-coated & this will actually cause quite a fiew problems at once. One is that it’ll always “taste” like a lie, because it is one, so there won’t be any sense of solace or anything like that (it’ll be like constantly trying to fire an empty weapon).

      Also, it inadvertantly pretties-up a bad situation AND whoever caused it. Plus, especially if this is a typical social trend, it makes it a more hospitable environment for this situation to happen, whether it’s to the same person again or to someone else the first time (and maybe the whole thing wouldn’t have happened in the first place if that hadn’t been the case). Some people really “keep the lie alive,” too- so they won’t counteract an attack in order to maintain congruency (being very committed to “keeping in character,” basically).

      Hope this helps. It’s not often you’ll find a shrink that doesn’t espouse the “party line” or will try to bolster someone’s autonomy- particularly when it comes to hostile situations & defending yourself from them. That “sharpening” is pretty rare (ex: to actually support someone being better able to detect & deflect something antagonistic from happening to them- the “radar & rifle combo” isn’t very well-liked, from what I can tell). Another common one is them acting like there’s something wrong with them & how they see things, instead of someone else simply being the bad guy. Guess that generates a repeat cost (which is something else that doesn’t typically come up when discussing things).

    • Alixa, it is unbelievable that they not only performed pap smears on a virgin, but also sent you to have you cervix butchered by a biopsy! To me it looks like a case of medical rape and female genitals mutilation, no less.
      Your family is wrong: you are not trying to find someone to blame. You are right in your feelings: you actually were abused and mutilated by the doctor, and had to endure excruciating pain during cervical biopsy procedure which was 100% unnecessary. This doctor should be in prison for what he’s done to you!

18. Alixa I am assuming you are in the US which is a pity because it seems that you cannot get the pill online. First let me say don’t listen to your family. Your feelings are real and nobody deserves to have their feelings dismissed.
    Secondly, if I were in your shoes I would rate this doctor very poorly on rateMDs etc. He sounds like an absolute bastard. Doctors that can’t find a solution to your problem but then blame the patient or call them liars or dismiss it as being all in the head should have their licences revoked. He sounds like the most incompetent and sadistic fool imaginable.
    These days I never go to a doctor for answers. Ever! I always do my own research and find my own solutions from the internet. Honestly, when I think back to the old days before I did my own research, I cannot believe how hit and miss doctors were.
    Doctors hate patients like me and they arrogantly try to tell us that we can’t tell the difference between a reputable site and an unreliable one. Well I use medical journals for my information. The fact is they know that their power is slowly diminishing with the advent of the internet and they are clutching at straws when they try to tell us we need them for information. We don’t. It really isn’t rocket science. As somebody else posted somewhere else on this site, they just memorise stuff and regurgitate it. They do not use their critical thinking skills. That is why they will give you advice that was either never proven or has been debunked. PubMed is a good database that is available free for lay people. I would go searching there.
    As for you blood pressure I would get a machine to use at home. My pressure is always high at the doctors but normal at home. They cause it to sky rocket.
    My advice for your problems would also make me think that you would need blood tests rather than ultrasounds or pap smears for diagnosis. You would need tests to check your hormonal levels. Why a doctor would think that you need a pap smear for your problems beggars belief. That’s what I mean about lacking critical thinking skills. Your problems point to a hormonal problem and not in anyway shape or form cervical cancer- especially since you are a virgin! What an idiot. Perhaps an endocrinologist would be more suitable.

19. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/opinions/112309

    This is an interesting thread, I wasn’t the first to challenge the “information” on pap testing and cervical cancer, I LOVE that…more women are doing their research and challenging the propaganda.
    An interesting woman has responded to my post, she makes some great points.

    Horrible to think many elderly women are still being put through pointless pap testing. After menopause this can be a VERY painful and damaging test/exam (and it’s often painful for women before menopause)…it’s just cruel to put these women through pap testing.

    The Dutch don’t test past age 60, nor do the Finns, (they never have) and now the Dutch will only offer the small number of HPV+ women from age 30 TO 60 a 5 yearly pap test. (until they clear the virus) Once again almost all of the stress, pain, embarrassment and damage endured by so many women is completely unnecessary. Here we test every 2 years to age 70, when, of course, there is no evidence of benefit, just harm. Who cares? Certainly not the medical profession.

    • In America (and, it seems, Germany) they shoot for even more. Not to act like you’re lucky for the problems you’ve got, but the country that CONSTANTLY talks about freedom & being better than any other country in the world not functionally being that way is a noticeable point. Since so many countries mimick America (it seems like that’s been happening less & less, though) that can be a bit of an ominous thing.

      In this country, there’s a heavy trend of someone trying to live someone else’s life & make other people’s decisions or impose their own (and that can be a variety of things, depending on the mechanics). This is a particualrly prevalent trait among medical & law enforcement employees. The properties of a situation don’t change because of designation, and that applies to administrative attacks.

      The culture here seems to hold to a few insane principles: (1) That reality is what they SAY it is (“thinking by adjucation”). (2) That altruism produces ownership (someone that “just wants to help” can do whatever they want & basically annex people with their decisions). (3) Intellectual negation has a transformative influence on the structure of the situation (that they counter someone’s discretion by giving them a bad grade- the “I have an A & you have a B at best, so I override your decisions without attacking you” argument). (4) That an imposed interface with a sexual area is okay, but it generally has to be elaborate & subtle (if it’s integrated into something else, is done only a little bit, or is done in an unconventional way it’s not really an attack). (5) That someone is innocent if what they do is a component to a methodology, if what they do is occupational, the presence or impression of guilt, and the presence or impression of desire for different results- regardless of if the actions committed are antithetical to that result.

20. I have just about had it with doctor’s yearly “personal health review”. It is all about FAT SHAMING and CANCER BLAMING.

21. What we really need to discuss here is not why virgins or low risk women don’t need Pap smears. What about women who feel they might like ab unbiased opinion about having an abnormal pap result in the past and do not like getting pressured into more paps, invasive colposcopies and damaging procedures? Not every woman reading this website has had only one lifetime partner, never been sexually assaulted or abused. Are they supposed to offer up their bodies to the pap Gods every year or even every three months? Any good advice to them?

    I read a recent epocrates bulletin that the trend in pap the stings is toward HPV co test with pap every five years.

    • Perhaps 15 yrs ago there was a huge expose or investigational article re how pap test slides are prepped, viewed, scored or graded. Included was what we have gotten to learn here as the usual “margin of error.” Here’s where it got interesting. Humans, highly trained, were employed to view these slides under microscope. They were allowed 15-30 SECONDS per slide. Their jobs depended on their speed and accuracy to maintain a certain “margin of error” and they were paid accordingly. The errors were regarded as acceptable since testing was so regular, the disease slow growing that “next time” it would be caught. Employees complained of job conditions/expectations and how much disease was escaping detection.

      Then computers using algorithms read slides and did much better than humans. Problem though, seriously abnormal slides having cell patterns outside mathematical parameters for where and how many cells would normally be present… and the computer simply ignored the slide.

      All this testing, and advanced painful & invasive biopsies are pushed upon us to cover for the accepted margins of errors. Doctors & big business cast aside accuracy b/c it’s easier to put us through the pain & stress of extra procedures. Fibroids, pregnancy, changes in hormones? Different results? Inaccurate test? Not until reading the “facts” here did I know what was really going on.

      We bear the burden, b/c of simplicity and cost containment, of them trying to separate us away from our advocates to be conned up on the rack for more scraping, cutting, burning, freezing, and PAIN & TEARS for this bs. We have to prove our health instead of them coming up with better & more accurate-non invasive & pain free-tests. Why? They can track our behaviors & generate statistics. Being naked and vulnerable, it’s so much easier to invade us for our own good & convince us to let them do other things to us, for our own good. And in process we tell them even more about our lives and then they dictate how we should live & raise our families.

      But the doctors and corporations ignore singling out the cheaters actually spreading disease. Or policing health providers too lazy to wash their hands or even keep their writing pens clean from virus’. Finding the source of infection would be work. Putting us through this creates jobs. And pain free procedures is too much work, and then us and our advocates would be too comfortable and ask to many questions.

      And while doctors can trust each other’s testing etc, WHY must each do their own full pelvic/rectal exam? Like our innards changed radically in one month when we changed offices?

22. Hello all,

    I used to post on the old blogcritics’ page, but I’ve only popped in here every so often to read everyone’s comments. I am in a bit of a quandary about something and am not sure how to proceed. I thought perhaps some of you might have some thoughts that would be helpful.

    A few weeks ago, I went to the obgyn Dr. with what I thought was a lumpy area and she did an exam and could not find anything of concern. She did, however, note a cyst that I’ve had since I was 13-14 years old (am now 37). Last time I went to see her with a similar concern a few years ago, she also noted the cyst and said if it was something new or had gotten bigger, they might refer me for an ultrasound and likely would use a syringe to draw out the fluid and get rid of it, but because I’d had it since age 13-14, it was OK to leave alone and that it could very well refill with fluid were they to do the syringe thing. It also serves as a point of reference since it is something I am familiar with and would more easily recognize any changes were it to change.

    Anyway, on this most recent visit, the Dr. changed her tune and said I really ought to get the thing drained and that her office would refer me to someone who could do it (last time my Dr. said she herself could do it, but she didn’t this time). Nothing has changed with this cyst since the last time, but now my Dr. has decided to start the pressure for mammograms and such. Perhaps it is because I am older than 35 now. I just figured they’d give me the other Dr’s number and I could call (or not) to make an appt if I chose to do so and that no more would be said about it.

    Well, the other Dr’s office began calling me on a regular basis to set up an appointment, but I never answered their calls. It was and is very upsetting to me, so much so that I put a call-blocking feature on my phone that would hang up automatically if the other Dr’s office were to call. I just did not want to have to deal with or talk to them.i figured if you don’t answer your phone enough times, the unwanted caller will stop calling. Guess I was wrong.

    Now, my the head nurse at my Dr’s office called yesterday and left a message saying to call her back. I figured it was about the other Dr’s office and so I called back this a.m. and left the nurse a voicemail message. In my voicemail message, I said I knew what she was calling about, that I had left a message with the other Dr’s office (I told a little fib) but wasn’t sure if they got it and that I had made other arrangements and would she please relay that to the other Dr’s office. I figured that would put a stop to all the calls, but then my Dr’s nurse called back and left another message saying would I please call and let them know what other Dr. I had decided to go to so she could “document” it.

    I don’t know what to do now. I don’t want to have to call my Dr’s office back again and just wish they’d leave me the hell alone. I’m afraid though that they’ll then call my GP’s office to pressure me as well. I don’t know what to do. I am considering firing the obgyn Dr. because of some other things she has said and done, so I’m wondering if I should just send a written letter stating that.

    Sorry for the very long post. Just wondering what you all would do?

    • Interesting idea with the phone blocking. I figure they’re in cahoots with each other & one’s trying to wrangle business & pleasure for the other. They get incentives for reaching different quotas (and that’s, apparently, legal), maybe they get paid for double-teaming someone.

      I’d personally suggest not even going to one, and there’s a massive amount of risk & inaccuracy to things they “suggest” (on top of all the other ways they impose various things on someone, it’s not someone making their own decisions if someone else is lying to them- deception vitiates consent)- so maybe they’re not the most trustable people in the world. Even if you had a problem, you’ re not necessarily going to get any help with it (even if it’s what you think you’re getting). Maybe look into more self-sufficient forms of handling your own situations (Rosemary Gladstar has a bunch of books that are good, one of them title Herbal Healing for Women).

      You’re eventually going to die anyway & whatever your span, whether you include something like this in your life is your choice.

    • Susanne, given that the doctor’s office is so persistent, I would’ve told them in short and plain words that you are not going to proceed with any further medical manipulations about this cyst. Full stop.

      The doctors may have “guidelines” (most of which, as we know, are in place to protect the doctors, not to look after our health) that force them to chase you, or it could easily be a plain attempt to make more money. In either case, it is your body, your health, and your decision.

      As to the cyst itself, given that is has been there for over 20 years without any change, you will get more harm in attempts to drain it than you will ever benefit from draining it. Puncturing the delicate breast tissue with a needle can cause all sorts of nasty consequences, while draining the cyst does not remove the reason why it appeared in the first place, so you are most likely to have the same cyst refilling again, or another one appearing. Which, of course, you will be told to drain again. (I hope you see the profitable pattern for the doctors here.)

      Even cancers, when they don’t change at all, are harmless, let alone cysts! So, tell your doctor that you don’t want to be harassed about the cyst anymore, ever. Especially if that causes you stress. It is harming you more via stress and worry.

    • Given we both live in US, I’ve experienced a lot of what you’re talking about. At first I was concerned, b/c cysts are fluid filled like a tumor etc. However, you had this since early teenager so I seriously doubt the threat potential. Still, ask your doctor the possible origin of the cyst, the cause etc.
      Remind her that you had it since 14yrs old. Chances are, that fact is long lost deep in your file. And that lost fact has now caused paranoia and the need for defensive medicine. And the new doctor you’re referred to is asking the first one why it was never taken out, so the previous doctor now is even more determined to “look aggressive” toward the cyst.
      Ask them to prove, based on the long history of you having it, why now it’s subject to change into cancer and warrants all the attention.
      As for the “documentation.” I like to make offices deal with my husband on issues like this. He has close relatives in the medical field. HIs best friend from high school is a doctor (the friend doesn’t like being grilled by my husband either). Anyway, simply tell your original doctor’s office employee not to worry about “documenting” the calls etc, b/c you are documenting them yourself and you are perfectly capable with following through on your own. After all, you yourself have been following through on this cyst, right?

      A note about HPV detecting etc. Still, no articles on testing/treating men who certainly do their part to spread HPV…

23. Either they call and if that is not answered they will send a letter. There are liability issues maybe with doctors having to contact patients about appointments and test results. So call that doctor and tell the, that you are not interested in coming in to their office, then hang up. Like any service you can refuse without giving a reason. If it was a dry cleaners or other service, you just stop using them. There is no obligation to explain.

    If you had a Pap test,do you know the result? This could also be why they are so persistent.

    Getting paid makes a huge difference. Depends on whether you have insurance coverage. If some doctor is not going to get paid then they will not deal with that patient at all.

    I heard about some woman who called the imaging office and said see did not want a mammogram and if she came in that they would sabotage the machine. I would not suggest that as if you do need any imaging for diagnostics in the future that you would be banned from that office. So do not make threats, even legal ones. If you have been abused make a complaint either to police or see your lawyer. The doctors association are mostly interested in protecting doctors not patients.

24. Hi Susanne,
    I don’t have an ob-gyn, never have and hope I never do, so I’ve had no first hand experience of being chased by an ob-gyn. (I know that image will cause nightmares)
    I suspect she’s covering her back, document it all – sort of extreme defensive medicine. I have a couple of cysts on my chest wall (close to breast tissue) – I showed them to my GP and dermatologist and both said to leave them alone, they didn’t recommend removal at all as the area is very likely to scar.

    I can understand why you don’t want them poking around with something that has been there for many years and has never changed, again it sounds like defensive medicine. The cyst is normal for you. (in it’s unchanged state)
    We’re all different, but I’d make these facts clear to them and stress you see no point rushing into something, if the cyst changes, then you’ll reconsider your position.
    It annoys me the bullying that goes on women’s healthcare.

    I also, worry about trauma to breast tissue, that’s why mammograms initially worried me, the radiation and compression of breast tissue. I’ve often wondered whether biopsies can cause issues, the research is sadly, lacking. I suppose my starting point is…leave normal alone. I don’t want anyone poking, scraping, cutting etc. when there is no good reason, and I will decide if there is a good reason. If my GP suggested I have the cysts removed, I’d get a second opinion and then make up my own mind.
    I’ve seen too many women (and men, but mainly women) over the years worse off after medical meddling, my younger sister is an example, an unnecessary cone biopsy that was both traumatic and damaging. (and could have been easily avoided)

    If you don’t feel you can convey this message to the nurse, do it in writing by letter, fax or email.
    I’d make my position crystal clear and then if they keep calling…well, I’d let them know in no uncertain terms that harassment is unprofessional.

    As for mammograms – if you don’t want them it will be exhausting dodging them for the next 50 years or so, I’d deal with it head-on. Fortunately, there are quite a few American doctors who are vocal on this subject now…and who make clear mammograms are controversial and that women have a right to refuse them. Dr Gilbert Welch has written some great articles, also, we have the Nordic Cochrane Institute leaflet…so you could also, mention that at this stage you won’t be having mammograms, please see the enclosed information. Make clear this is your informed decision, end of story. If you can’t work with this doctor, then I’d be doctor-shopping, find someone who’ll work with you, not hassle you until you give in to her.
    Nice to hear from you again, I hope more BlogCritics people find their way to our new safe haven.

25. Don’t worry about the fib either, they tell us whoppers every day, you’ve “made other arrangements” and that is to watch the cyst for any changes.

26. Hi Susanne,
    I agree with Elizabeth. I have had a family doctor send me a paternalistic letter telling me I was no longer welcome to stay on as a patient if I did not agree to undergo regular pap tests. I had declined a pap test while seeing my doctor for an unrelated reason, and I received the letter a few days later. After reading the letter (and calming down) I phoned my doctor’s office and instructed the receptionist to pass on the message that I was no longer a patient there, and to please do what they liked with my health records. I have discovered that I don’t need a family doctor, I’ve been happier and healthy without one, and my reproductive organs are also healthy and intact. I realize this is not be an option for everyone but it has been working well for me.

    • Why not make a bunch of copies & get a lawyer to point all this out in court? Not a huge fan of court rooms, but I’m pretty sure there’s some kind of “in absentia” style to do things like that. Either way, it’s like a tyranny at sea situation or something, isn’t it? Like they’re saying “You do as I say or get thrown off the ship.” With pretty much any subject, it’s a constant theme of them basically trying to kick someone out of themselves.

    • You could have reported that Dr to the medical board as what he was doing was abandonment. A Dr cannot terminate a patient unless that Dr’s services are no longer required, another Dr has taken over care, or sufficient notice has been given that the Dr is terminating care. In the case of the letter that is not sufficient notice and the reason for the termination was also unethical as a patient has the right to decline any medical care without fear of retribution. What that Dr was doing was unethical and they knew it.

27. There is no need to contact a lawyer unless there is something serious going on. Phoning back is no really harassment until someone is asked not to call. The medical odpffice does have some obligation to show that they are not abandoning a patients medical care. Also they could think that a person was on vacation etc. some doctors are also required to communicate to a patient the risks of them refusing treatment and document it so that they have some defense if the patient or family try to sue later for malpractice.

    All that needs to be done us send a nite that you are refusing a particular service and would no like to be harassed about it. If it comes up at a subsequent visit then you might consider getting another doctor.

    I used walk in clinic for critcal care for years without much harrassment about paps, mammograms. Now I am registered with a family doctor. The harassment for cancer screening is constant to the point I feel it is negatively affecting my care on other health issues. I am still going to refuse paps, mammograms and FOBT tests. For the FOBT I might take the card and develop it at home but avoid sending it to the lab since I do not want to be in the government registry. There is the cancer screening push but if he decides to drop me for refusing then he is going to have to do formally.

    Everyone look up the definition of neoplasm and discover something very interesting. Most of the cancer screening is rather like biopsying every mole and freckle.

    These large population screening programs are just giant experiments. Some countries like Sweden have enough wisdom to stop as they do more harm. In canada it is just people trying to keep a budget going and their jobs. The data collected is not being analysed properly or published in entirety.

28. I meant reprisal not retribution.
    That letter is also coercion as it’s taking away your informed consent with the threat of losing access to medical care unless you submit to their demands of a pap smear. In one letter that Dr violated three of their ethics. And it’s in writing.

    • You’re absolutely right, ADM. Whether it’s informed or not, the patient’s consent is not outsourced to them. They try to “hold a gun to someone’s head” and then act innocent. Ever notice how they always claim “self-defense” not matter what? Like they’re doing something that can never be wrong & the patient is attacking them by comporting their own medical situation. They also act like assualting the patient, which they ARE liable, is an acceptable method of deflecting lawsuits for things they are NOT liable for. They’re “just protecting themselves” against unfair malpractice suits, so it’s okay for them to do worse things than an unfair lawsuit to the patient to achieve that goal.

      Tell me if this theme sounds familiar: “They DARE to decide what happens to them?!” “To ALTER what we have set in moiton?!” “They have the AUDACITY to counteract OUR actions?!”

    • There are so many great points being made. ADM, unfortunately this was some years ago now, and I was so p’od that I burnt the letter from my doctor shortly after reading it – short term gain. Although in an ironic twist, that same doctor who wrote the letter has ended up on the College of Physicians and Surgeons for my province, and also just happens to be on the Discipline Committee. Kind of sick and twisted but it seems to be par for the course as far as doctors go. If I were to have saved the letter and made a complaint to the college I doubt it would have gotten very far. Informed consent, abandonment and ethics all look good in theory, but if you peel back the layers in terms of what happens to women in reality it doesn’t add up to much. It is extremely frustrating. Burning the letter and “firing” my doctor was huge though in terms of personal satisfaction. And as I’ve said I have been much happier and healthy without a family doctor. I might have gained some ground if I had gone to a lawyer but I never thought of going in that direction at the time. Back then I hadn’t realized it was a common issue.

      • I forgot to add that I wrote to three different law firms about a year ago. The subject of my letters was in regards to women being denied health care when they refused “optional” screening for cervical cancer. I wrote about women in general as I was motivated (and incensed) by some of the comments here and on Blogcritics about women being denied birth control pills, and about having other health issues ignored (such as cardiac issues) and also pregnant women being coerced into paps that increase chances of miscarriage and premature birth. My letters were ignored. I wrote a second time and finally got one reply from one of the law firms. The reply was: “Sorry, I am unable to help you with this”.

    • You know, this gets me thinking once again: Why don’t a bunch of women start up a whole bunch of new feminist groups & bring all these things up? Same idea with having more & more websites devoted to this general subject (“disqualified abuse,” I guess would be a good term).

      It’d be a good idea to not have things be too centralized & easy sabotage- but also to have a broader chance of hitting something. Like the idea of dropping lit matches in a bunch of different places, instead of just one & hoping for the best. I think the regular feminists would either have to stridently agree or have it become blantantly obvious that they disagree & are not all they made themselves out to be.

      The doctors, themselves, can’t very well say “What happens isn’t what occurs” or “The situation ISN’T what it consists of,” or else they’d look crazy (or antagonistic, or incompetant, etc…). The law can’t do anything like that, either (for the same reasons & they’ve already been acting more & more like vicious dictators). Add all this in with the observation that they are the ones that’ll be teaching the next generation of employees & that’s a serious amount of warning light.

    • I understand why you burned the letters. I did the same with the “you should have a pap” from my Dr’s office. Thankfully my Dr’s office seems to have so far respected my wishes. It’s so infuriating to get those letters.
      Yesterday I saw a Dr who is connected with an natural health place and all I got was how I should be having paps and need a hysterectomy because I’m not using it and basically she medically hexed me. I was hoping because she was connected with a natural health place I would get a different perspective on a couple of health concerns. Instead I got the same medical model perspective and out of date information combined with I must have been abused because I’ve declined intimate exams. She said every myth and lie about paps and hysterectomies that it was almost funny. Of course everything I’ve read is not true even when I pointed out that the information came from medical sources. It frightens me that other people she deals with aren’t as informed as I am.

      • ADM, it was satisfying to see the letter burn! But it’s sad that we have to resort to burning letters in the first place. It is good to explore other options by going to more natural health based providers and I’m sorry you were met with more of the same uninformed “care”. I can see the same thing happening to the naturopaths in my area as the female-based practices advertise paps alongside “natural” healing.

        Maybe we need to start an official organization that promotes ethical health care for women that is free from coercion, abuse, and exploitation. I found this interesting site with principles that could be applied to our topics of interest as well: http://www.positivebirthmovement.org

29. ADM, I did not know that about Drs not being able to drop a patient without first giving them time to find another provider. It makes me even angrier to learn that as something very similar happened to my mother during her illness. She sought a second opinion from the brain cancer experts at Duke University — they are the foremost experts in the world on this particular disease — and they recommended a different course of treatment involving a new drug that had very promising results. They ran a number of tests on my mother during her consultation with them and determined her current treatment, which is/was the standard first-line therapy for her disease, was not working. Their recommendations were passed on to my mom’s doctor in our hometown.

    Shortly after we returned home, my mom received a certified letter in the mail from the hometown Dr stating that he could no longer see her as a patient and neither could any other Dr within that group practice. That left my mom without a Dr. and she and my dad had to scramble to find someone else who would see her on such short notice and provide treatment/care for her illness according to the recommendations by the experts at Duke. I’m not sure what exactly the original Dr’s reason was for dropping her like that — I suspect some of it had to do with a bruised ego, but my dad also seems to think it came down to money, since the treatment suggested by Duke was not yet FDA-approved and there might have been some hoops to jump through with the insurance company to get it covered. Thankfully my parents’ insurance did cover the treatment.

    My mom could have traveled to Duke for treatment, but that would mean flying across country every two weeks. Not good for someone who was very ill. She ended up seeing a specialist about 4-5 hours away and she and my dad and sister would drive down there every two weeks for the next couple of months until she was able to get in with a local specialist who then worked with the other Dr and the Duke team to coordinate her treatment.

    As for my situation, I would like to make clear to the doctor that I have made a decision and am requesting that they cease any further communication on the matter (no more phone calls or letters) and respect my wishes. I’m not exactly sure how to go about doing that, though. I am wondering if another phone message to the nurse would suffice or if a written letter is necessary. I don’t want to be making a bigger fuss than needs to be made.

30. The doctor has to give notice but it is a limited amount of time and as we know this can be a huge inconvenience for someone who has to travel to another doctor.

    I might suggest a phone call late at night, to ensure you get a machine or message service. Just state the fates and do not make a huge fuss. You might have to use this doctor at some point.

    I am wondering that if a polyp or fibroid is really a neoplasm, although usually benign, is it going to affect a pap test result? So then every women over 35 with a fibroid or polyp (which is common) is going to get a colposcopy and endocervical sampling in Ontario. Wow that is too many and too painful.

31. It’s amazing the pap test story has been firmly established as ALL good…a MUST for all women.
    We hear that story over and over…over decades I can only recall one critical article on pap testing in the media…ONE in 30+ years.
    Many (I’d say most) don’t seem to question the need for and value of pap tests. The story/message has never been challenged, so it must be true. You can understand why some women look at us and assume we’re ratbags.
    It’s been a hugely successful indoctrination, one deliberately engineered to make women feel like they can’t reasonably decline the test. In many cases women are simply forced into testing. Can you imagine the profession making prostate screening a requirement for Viagra or a flu shot? Yet even at this late stage coercion is still the norm in the States and Canada. Yet these countries probably pride themselves on respect for women’s rights, equal opportunity etc.

    You can hardly say informed consent or even consent itself is respected in the UK with women being chased and harassed. Even here pap testing is often presented as a must, “when was your last pap test?” “You’ll need to have a pap test”….TELLING women they need pap tests or assuming consent. Paying our GPs target payments also, adds to the unethical design of this program, especially when this payment is never mentioned to women.

    This testing only works with coercion, unethical practices and dishonesty – that’s the only way they can get 80% or the majority screened…you need to screen most women to prevent a rare cancer and justify the testing/program.

    Pap testing IS a feminist icon…and the hysteria attached to it is almost blind “religion-type” faith/fervour…as a younger woman I would have felt uncomfortable revealing my no-pap-test status, but something comes with age…bring it on! Now I make clear I don’t have pap tests, I almost relish the opportunity to “reveal” myself to the profession and particularly, to other women, and letters, phone calls etc. would give me an enjoyable project, a teaching opportunity, “this is why your conduct is unacceptable”…etc. Perhaps, a letter to the Medical Board.

    So don’t despair…I put pap tests out of my mind as a younger women, turned off the TV, ignored their posters etc. feeling guilty, intimidated, uneasy/anxious etc. NOW with the benefit of age I’m confident in my decision and almost proud to say, “I’m 55 and have never had a pap test”…and never will.
    BUT I remember the discomfort that was ever-present for a long time, the “climate” that silenced most of us…I can’t think of anything else as oppressive in my life. Maybe that’s why the screeners are often so self-righteous, judgmental and emotive, they had to overcome so much mentally and physically to cope with this test every year or 2. That’s another point: can you think of anything else that prompts the wagging finger or sharp intake of breath as much? The…”you DON’T have pap tests, are you crazy?”
    The reactions are so extreme, it confirms in my mind that many women have been totally brainwashed. The system has been hugely successful…they wanted women to just do it and not to look at the test too closely, make it a habit…and sadly, many women have done just that…they just do it.

    • The younger women are being told that they do not need to be tested until they are 25 if they are listening. Only now they are supposed to be terrified of having HPV. So will they are be lining up for paps as soon as they turn 25? I doubt it.

      The “habit” of pap testing used to start when a young women wants hormonal birth control and is forced into testing to get it. Now that might not be so easily enforced. Now the forced pap testing is linked with pregnancy and mothering. I can clearly understand why the risk of miscarriage is not explained but rather the risk of cancer and baby being infected with throat HPV (extremely low <0.1% when mother is HPV 16 or 18 positive) and there are no studies published about paps causing miscarriages (?) .

      I think that older women are questioning paps as they have low "compliance" around 40%. Any women over 35 getting an abnormal pap is going to be referred to colposcopy and biopsy. A result of ASCUS or AGUS is going to get a biopsy or even a cone for no reason other than 50% of those are only due to hormonal changes or fibroids! polyps. Why are women being lied to and told that they could have cancer? The percentage is low and some women are getting cones and hysterectomies for really dodgey diagnosies. So how many times is a women going to show up for colposcopies when the "treatments" do not cure and are painful and damaging? I consider pap testing damaging considering how HPV needs damaged cells to infect. Scrape up a cervix and put in unsterile gloves from your dirty doctors office. Sorry no pelvic exams for me.

      Some older women like me just decided enough nonsense and no more paps or other cancer screening. Even antibiotics I find are causing me extra problems from the primary problem. More people are turning to herbs and alternative medicine if they can afford it. That stream needs to be regulated only that government is too corrupted by big pharma that some herbals are banned and information is suppressed.

      I get that "what if you have cancer" all the time but I know that the body can heal itself of some cancer and everyone has some cancer and precancerous cells in them. I am tired of all the hype and drama.

      Cancer treatments kill people yet people line up for them when they do not often extend life with any quality or less suffering. An elderly couple jumped to their deaths the day after the government in Canada announced they were not allowing assisted suicide for people suffering with terminal illness. Instead people are supposed to die with medically induced suffering instead.

32. The other point: as a younger woman I probably would have felt guilty, defensive, emotional and embarrassed…even cornered, if I’d been harassed about pap tests. I simply avoided doctors.
    Over the last few years though a sort-of calmness has descended which enables me to speak about the subject and to stand my ground. Doctors IMO, find this unfamiliar, they expect us to start babbling “excuses” etc. It takes them back when someone takes a calm, confident and informed position.
    A colleague told me recently that she feels more comfortable with doctors now, and is usually 15 or 20 years older than them as well. Some of us may have just had enough after decades of dodging and weaving….whatever it is…wait for it, it’s coming. Definitely one of the benefits of age.

    • You what to know something interesting? The Mongols actually married a woman that was somewhat older than them deliberately, figuring that she’d be able to give better advice. They also held it as unmanly if a guy didn’t pay any attention to it.

      Sometimes drawing attention to someone’s responses works for getting them to re-think it. Not to pat myself on the back, but a lot of the stuff I say about the “dynamics of reality” (for lack of a better term, although that one seems pretty apt) seems to work, at least for ending the argument. I don’t know if they really come to a different conclusion or hold anything in a different esteem, but it’s pretty damn hard for someone to say “What happens ISN’T what occurs,” and still have ground to stand on. That’s something that really zooms in to the level of addressing foundational bullshit.

      Try saying “The properties of a situation don’t change because of designation.” When I say that and/or that it’s still murder if a doctor poisons someone with a needle & that a situation is what it consists of- that’s the end of it.

      All the different “medical utility” type of things can be disputed in a “How do you know?” or “Where did you hear that?” kind of way- but the point about something of this nature being imposed on someone being an issue in the first place, regardless of utility, is something that doesn’t work that way. Also the point that, if they’re the types to do something like that, how can they be trusted with anything? If they’re certified, on top of that, what else does that mean?

      It works with all kinds of other subjects, too. When something is “deemed” safe, but doesn’t actually have that quality / When someone is “certified,” but is still incompetant or antagonistic / When something has alway been “fine” in the past, but might be made of different things in the present / Different things along the same lines with law enforcement (or any of this medical stuff being imposed in a police-induced situation). All of the bullshit that gets thrown out as an argument is based on “thinking by adjucation.” Reality is what it is & that’s not something someone can really dispute (since whatever they say would then be what the situation IS). I know this was long, but it’s been a useful strategy for me & maybe it’ll be useful for someone else.

    • What I find frustrating is that a statement of I don’t have paps or I’ve made the informed decision to not have paps turns into an opportunity for the Dr to lecture and shame you and attempt to coerce you into paps. I remember hearing once that when a man says no it’s no but when a woman says no it’s time for a discussion and attempts to change her mind. That’s been my experience and also time to ask more intimate questions that stem from attitudes of women are sluts and their partners too and they cheat. I stood my ground and the Dr finally gave up but it wasn’t a quick process. If you’re a woman who doesn’t have paps you’re viewed as ignorant and a target for lecturing. I am still left wondering about what the obsession is with paps and a rare cancer.

33. WHY the Obession with pap testing and a rare cancer???? I would like to know.

    I know that my doctor can bill public insurance to ask me if I want a pap twice biannually. -Just for asking me. I can stick my fingers and my ears and say lalalalalalalalalala while he lectures me. Of course he is never going to stop asking me if he gets paid for it. It is an easy $6.86 and if he can coerce me then he makes about $30.

    It is also the concept of the “silent killer” that intrigues them. They are no symptoms of cervical cancer until it is TOO LATE they say. They want to believe that they diagnosed a predisease that we did not know we had and they saved our life. I am sure that they are other “silent killers” that they do not receive incentive payments to test for.

    Why a “silent killer” when all they need to have self HPV test kits available for people to use anytime they want. It is total bunk that men could never be tested for HPV. If a lavage or scraping can show HPV infected cells in a women then there could be some urine test and skin rubbing cloth that is applied to the penis and scrotum to test men. I am sure that it would be less damaging to men than scraping a cervix. Then men could be treated because men usually have more sexual partners than most women do. They could be lectured about spreading disease and CANCER.

    What is the REAL REASON why the digene self HPV test is not available in Canada?
    Why also is HPV testing in Ontario not free but $90 and has to be done WITH a Pap test?
    Does anyone have those answers?
    WHY does my personal information have to be entered into a public data base if I get a pap test and I can never have it deleted? They actually passed a LAW to make it so. That itself seems on the road to genocide or population control.

34. ADM I Have had that experience too especially with male doctors. For example they will give you several options but if you don’t pick the option they want you to choose they keep asking you for your answer. The last time I went to my regular GP, I asked for the pill. This was several years ago now. He kept trying to get me to try something else, Mirena, Nuva ring etc. I kept repeatedly saying: “NO. I want the pill!” He finally gave in but not without a threat of a breast exam the next time I visited! And he only gave me three months supply. I decided never to return and from that moment onwards it was the pill online for me even though it costs more.
    But it’s true what you say about women saying no, they do not accept it the first time you say it. You have to repeat yourself several times.

    • You know it’s interesting that they threaten people with these procedures & then act like there’s nothing problematic about them. Look at when they catheterize someone at the hospital because they don’t like someone or to get back at them for a perceived attitude. That’s an issue on a couple of levels: the nature of interface, pain, and very possible infection (that might very well be fatal- a lot of people die from hospital-borne infections to begin with, but some of them are from that). All of this from someone, supposedly, trustable to at least not be an enemy.

      Same with the skits about rectal thermometers on T.V.- Why else would it be a threat? It’s imposing something of this nature on someone, which is a problem. The reasoning is “You don’t want someone sticking something in there, so here it goes.” When that happens in real life, it’s not a joke. I don’t particularly like when they make jokes about this sort of thing, for that exact reason- it gets associated with a joke & then not taken seriously.

35. check for the date when they submit in their yearly quotas to get their incentive bonus for pap testings. Avoid going to the doctor a few weeks before the deadline because they are desperate for women to get paps. Opportunistic testing.

    • In NZ they get the nurses onto the phones to try and achieve targets. In the waiting room you can hear them calling women and fending off what are obviously excuses by the women. If it was not so disgraceful it would almost be amusing.

36. for the adenocarcicoma diagnosis is on the rise scenerios. It is just another poor excuse for pushing paps and scaring women. For abnormal pap results of atypical glandular cells, this is what someone on one forum posted up.

    “Glandular Cell Abnormalities are usually atypias due to inflammatory responses. The glandular epithelium is a thin (single layer linning) and is susceptible to irritation from a lot of possible causes including hormonal, microbial, physical and chemical agents used for douching. However, few cases of dysplasia do occur and that’s why gynae cytopathologists are concerned when they see glandular cell abnormalties and wants to rule out this rather serious condition. ******Dysplasia in this area being a single layer of epithelium translates to Carcinoma In-situ, unlike the situation in the multilayered squamous epithelium that can be graded into Low and High Grades.****** I will advice our cytopathologists to include their general inclination as to the probable reactive or dysplastic process whenever possible as an addendum to Glandular Abnormalities report. This will decrease the anxiety of our clients. Your case will turn out to be normal again or at worst a reactive atypia, this tend to be the usual trend for cases similar to your own. I will be interested in knowing the result of your colpo, please.”

    From one paper I read, it seemed that only 10% of all AGC paps were due to cancer. Yet, the recommended treatment was aggressive, a cone biopsy.
    Since as mentioned the single layer of cells is rated at a higher atypia, it seems more serious. If it is just an inflammation then it is going to resolve on its own.

    • Radical treatment for all? Looks like a shotgun approach to something a sniper should be doing. Treat all women like the 10% b/c doctors feel we can’t be trusted to return for f/u testing and that we’re gonna screw and spread, so we must be racked & scraped. Men can’t imagine their penis spreading anything nasty and having it frozen, fried, or cut… The worse offenders are those who are NOT circumcised; a microscopic bug incubator. Remember that women.

      Moo, the dysplasia you describe was ME 30 yrs ago. It ended with cryosurgery.

37. I do not believe that cryo is done in CAnada so often now. It is punch biopsy for any suspicious lesions on cervix first then LEEP or cone as diagnosis determines (LEEP or cone for most CIN II and all CIN III). It is LEEP or cone for anything endocervical. Laser, acid for intravaginal warts. Cryo is just used in office for external warts.

    I think we might need a report to moderator button for these trolls popping lately. Please be cautious and do not contact anyone offline (or by personal email) even though you feel like they really need help. Maybe some of us are just too kind hearted. I even hope the voyeur gets help.

38. I was reading an article I should have bookmarked and posted. It had statistics from studies about how effective some of the conventional treatments were. Some of the treatments were for genital warts and there reoccurrence. It was a shocking amount of effectiveness in some cases only 40% effective. I wonder I how effective LEEP are when some women are having three of them and then end up with a hysterectomy. The LEEP does not kill HPV infected cells it only removes tissue that is thought to be infected. It is destructive. It is does not stop more infection.

    Apparently some studies have shown that green tea extract does kill HPV infected. Cells at quite a good percentage rate but why are these protocols not used with the LEEP. Women are not even told that some dysplasia will heal on its own. The mandate is to treat all CIN II and III with destructive therapies in women over 35.

    Just seems that the medical community is not trying hard enough and just treating every abnormal pap over age 35 with destructive therapies. Why are medicinal therapies not being developed? It seems that the interventions are prone to cause more interventions, more destructive procedures and surgeries and more interventions during fertility crises and birth. It profits the doctors more. The medicalization of women’s bodies from menstruation start to death is just accepted? Not by me.

39. http://t.healthyliving.msn.com/health-wellness/women/sex/why-no-one-is-getting-their-period-anymore-1 I read this article, and it just doesn’t sit right with me. Does anyone know if taking BC on this type of schedule actually does reduce cancer risk? In which case, isn’t that a counter-productive argument with gynos who say that BC increases risk of cancer? It’s all a lot of mixed statements and very confusing.

    • I know this might sound creepy, but does it seems like there’s a general effort to maintain a state of childhood? I’ve noticed a general “make things child-patterned” with a lot of different stuff, lately. Also, I’ve noticed people treating children like grown adults, too (maybe it’s just a “backward” thing).

      Take shaving, for instance (I know a woman shaving “certain areas” isn’t necessarily a point like that, but it’s everything combined so bear with me a second). It’s actually not an unheard of trend with men, too! With either gender, hair grows in where it wasn’t before.

      Then there’s medically cancelling menstration (like in a young girl). The medical professions, as a whole, do have a tendancy toward “paternalism” (although I think “autocratic hostility” is a better term)- especially with women. They seem to have some kind of issue with people giving birth, as well.

      Then there’s basically stalling mental development at school (a lot of the information is useless or false- some of it possibly leading to serious problems later in life, undermining the capacity for critical thought or innovation, trying to teach a blind trust like a child would have in their parents, etc…). This happens with all kinds of medical actions, as well (delivery room stuff that can make the kid retarded, vaccines, medications that rot the brain, etc…).

      Even T.V. shows are like that- the shows are either very “dialed down” to the point of it not really being an adult level or they’re very immature (adults acting like little kids, particularly the men). The shows for kids seem designed to stagnate them at that level & not introduce more complicated themes. There’s no references to any “workings of life” or historical situations- positive or negative. There’s not even any more advanced descriptive language than what a child would tend to use. Not for nothing, but it can be real useful to be able to put words to a situation ( “iatrogenic detriment”/”imposed interfaces”/”antagonistic to your alignment”).

40. If some women want to forgo menstruating at all by continually taking hormonal birth control then if they are making an informed decision about their health fine. Maybe these are the same young women who are going on line to buy their birth control pills and shun medical interference and nonsense pap testing. I remember being a teen and young women and I hated having my period because it was inconvenient and sometimes painful. There are some better menstrual protection products out there such as the cup, better pads etc but some women just hate using them. Tampons are not too healthy either.

    Seems weird to me because I am wanting to be more natural. Getting a period on hormonal birth control is not really a period anyway. The week off is just to let a women bleed to confirm that she is not pregnant that somehow some scientist or doctor thought was a good idea. She could just use a urine test from the dollar store for that if it was worrisome.

    I knew about this years ago but was rather suspicious of hormones anyway. I knew a young women who had hemophilia. Ok it is very rare for a women to have hemphilia but her father and brothers had it and her mother was a carrier. She just happened to get issues when she started her period she would bleed for a month and have to be hospitalized. They put her on continual hormones so she never got a period. It did not prevent her from becoming black and blue with bruises if she had an injury though. She could never have children.

    Some studies have been done showing that hormonal birth control lowers risks for certain cancers but raises others.
    ” A number of studies suggest that current use of oral contraceptives (birth control pills) appears to slightly increase the risk of breast cancer, especially among younger women. However, the risk level goes back to normal 10 years or more after discontinuing oral contraceptive use.
    Women who use oral contraceptives have reduced risks of ovarian and endometrial cancer. This protective effect increases with the length of time oral contraceptives are used.
    Oral contraceptive use is associated with an increased risk of cervical cancer; however, this increased risk may be because sexually active women have a higher risk of becoming infected with human papillomavirus, which causes virtually all cervical cancers.
    Women who take oral contraceptives have an increased risk of benign liver tumors, but the relationship between oral contraceptive use and malignant liver tumors is less clear.”
    from the National Cancer Institute http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/oral-contraceptives
    Then there are other health factors these women should understand about using hormones that they can increase risk of stroke and blood clots, they should not smoke. If they feel that they are informed then they should do what they feel is good for them.

    • Moo – Thank you for your reply! I always had a feeling that tampons did more harm than good (especially after learning about toxic shock syndrome!). I, too, try to be more natural so I think that’s a big part of why this didn’t sit well with me. I don’t think any woman actually ENJOYS having a period (unfortunately, periods are nothing like advertisements for feminine products would lead us to believe). That being said, I think that if you have a lot of problems with it and are informed and really want to do this – then more power to you! I just didn’t necessarily care for the way the article was worded as if women who continued to have regular periods or go without BC were not as wise as those who chose to do differently – as if our body’s natural functions are a curse! I think it’s wonder that your friend with hemophilia was able to use BC to help her! I think there are pros and cons to it, but in certain situations the pros would far outweigh the cons. So, essentially, cancer risk doesn’t necessarily change, rather the risk is for other cancers? I agree, it’s all about choice. However, as I said before, the way the article was worded just really seemed quite set on making women feel like not having periods was the right thing for everyone to do in this day and age, and that periods are nothing more than a thing of the past.

    • I meant to say wonderful, not wonder. Sorry for the typo.

    • I’m unsure about how healthy it is to be introducing artificial hormones into the body for a prolonged period of time and not letting the body do what it does naturally. But if a woman chooses to do that and does it with full knowledge it is her choice to make. There may be no long-term side-effects and it may be beneficial. I understand that for many woman their cycles are difficult and no periods would be a great relief. But what bugs me is the medical model opinions on the menstrual cycle. Over the years I’ve had Dr’s say to me how annoying periods are and why it’s so great to have a hysterectomy and to be free of bleeding. Even just last week the Dr in her attempt to sell a hysterectomy said again how annoying periods are. None of those Dr’s ever asked for my opinion on my menstrual cycle or considered the possibility that I don’t find it annoying and that I could view it as part of my femininity. Menstrual cycles are lumped in with the misogynist attitudes about the female sex organs. I don’t know if these attitudes will ever change considering it’s a system that used to view being female as a predisposing health risk factor for insurance.

41. Alex – Yes! I agree. It’s sort of switched. People treat adults like children and treat children like grown-ups (not all around, but in certain respects, as you mention in the next part of your comment especially aesthetically).

    As for shaving, there’s a lot of weirdness surrounding that. Among my peers, there seems to be this idea that shaving “certain areas” prevents infections, when actually it makes it easier for infections to occur. There seems to be a lot of misinformation for the sake of a trend. People are entitled to do what they want with their bodies, but the reasoning behind it seems a bit off in some cases.

    I feel like a lot of things are done for the sake of medical purposes. Some of it is actually necessary in certain situations, but it is not necessary for everyone or for people who are healthy and not suffering from anything. It certainly does seem paternalistic as women seem to be the main target for such things.

    Something interesting – at schools in the Netherlands, teachers are held to the same standard as American lawyers. They have to go through a grueling education process and gain several certifications before being able to teach. The Netherlands and surrounding countries have the highest success rate of education, but kids are in school for fewer hours and are taught things that are applicable to life and how to get a career in this day and age. It seems that in general, that part of Europe is steps ahead in treating people like actual human beings and putting peoples’ needs before money or selfish motives. I’m sure things still happen there, as they do everywhere, but the system itself seems much less corrupt.

    I don’t think I’ve noticed it as much with TV shows, but advertisements – most definitely. I guess it depends on what you watch. I can say, though, that when I first started commenting, I had to look up some of the words you use. So I think that speaks for itself in regards to the vocabulary that is being taught now.

42. My huge questions

    1. I go to the doctor to get help for fertility issues. He asks me when was my last Pap test? Does that have anything to do with fertility? We argue, he gets angry and tells me that I would not get any prenatal care without a Pap test. I live in Canada. As I understand Pap tests can cause miscarriage. As far as I know getting an abnormal pap will lead to “treatments” that adversely affect fertility. Are there fertility benefits to getting a pap and further treatments from an abnormal result?

    2 . My doctor tells me that women my age have 1% chance of getting pregnant naturally. I disagree with this statistic because where is it coming from? Most women at my age, 49, do not want anymore children, some have started towards menopause, etc. He will not do anything about fertility issues until I get a Pap test and ambushes me almost anytime I show up sick. I recently had an ultrasound for GERD and prescribed rapabrazole (proton pump inhibitor). He never showed me the ultrasound results yet he will feel my uterus and ovaries when he is saying he needs to check my stomach. Should I confront him about all this?

    3. I have decided to do my own research. I am taking vitex (chasteberry), taking basal body temperature, doing luteinizing hormone urine tests, taking a baby aspirin everyday, taking prenatal vitamins and extra B,C, E, D, A, calcium, trying to eat better. I did some castor oil packs but I heard that can cause miscarriage if it is done at the wrong time. Is there anything else that I can try?

    • The Dr is acting unethically. You cannot be denied access to medical care for refusing an optional screening test. Ask him to explain how a pap test is linked in with fertility issues and to give citations such as research studies. If he refuses to give you medical care in regards to fertility issues for refusing a pap test ask him to sign a form/letter you created stating as such. It can say that: I, Dr (insert his name) is refusing to provide Moo with access to medical care regarding fertility concerns because she is refusing the optional medical test of a Pap Smear, then his signature and date. I highly doubt he would sign it. My bet is he wants his $2000 for reaching the screening target.

    • A major point that is totally omitted (by the doctor) is that pap testing can cause a miscarriage, so it’ll counteract this goal of having children like a time-delayed poison. Also, since he’s trying to push this situation on you- he’s not trustable at all.

      It doesn’t seem like there ARE any benfits to pap testing, anyway. Someone baselessly connecting one thing to another that just so happens to be true once in a while doesn’t mean “effective deduction” it means “random guesswork.” Gambling as a medical technique, but it’s reckless to “gamble” with not having any medical procedures applied! Also, who is he to NOT show you the ultrasound results?! This situation is supposed to tell you what’s going on with your own health & he DARES to hold back that information from you?! It’s not his decision to make.

      Make sure that the vitamins/supplements/whatever that you’r taking are natural (if nothing else, the synthetics don’t absorb as well- even if the numbers say a certain amount, you don’t functionally get that much). There are numerous books on the subject (Rosemary Gladstar has a few & I think the subject of fertility is mentioned). High stress can cause problems, but it’s pretty stressful to “maintain” that un-stressed state (like thinking about not thinking about something). If you’re keeping a straight face & a mellow tone of voice, but you still have a bunch of people antagonizing you- that’s not really low-stress, is it?

      Not sure how likely it is to have a child at 49, but I could have sworn I heard something along those lines before. It was something along the lines of having to time things well & keeping a good bodily state (nutrients & such). Keeping in shape (like working out to a level that would actually challenge the body) seems to be pretty important. Not just for the delivery (which it would make a lot of sense to do naturally, as it’s more facilitating to labor & the hospital version tends to throw in things that are very dangerous to begin with- whatever the age someone’s trying to do this). You’ve got to deliberately “get things in gear” instead of it just happening whenever like when a woman’s younger.

      I guess a lot of things have to do with re-assessing a baseline. The idea that the hosptial is a dangerous place runs contrary to the first thing someone hears about it. Same with medical care- not getting a benefit & being harmed instead of helped is not what people tend to hear at first.

    • In US, cryo is still used for dysplasia, depending on md’s preference however. What would they give you to increase chances of conception? After my cryo, I received Clomid. The second increased dose produced a multiple birth.

      I am compelled to respond to another’s comments re shaving. I shave. It is hygienic, and I decide how much hair I want to keep and where. The only problems I’ve ever heard of could range from razor burn, topical reaction to what’s used to prepare the hair for shaving, perhaps ingrown hairs, nicks, but no infections. Contrary, excessive hair acts as a bacterial growth medium, with increased stink…AND the chance of actually spreading fecal bacteria up into the vagina due to rub transfer.

      My decision to shave has nothing to do with wanting to remain childlike in appearance. That is warped.

      Transfer rub is also why I am cautious about wearing thongs. Tampons? Not meant to wear for long hours. Otherwise hygienic as oxygen contact is what degrades blood and assists in bacterial propagation. Should be common sense for a woman who knows her body.

43. I could do a form but then he is going to come back with his own letter dropping me as a patient. He threatened before but I called him on it and he never formally dropped me. So if he drops me or I fire hum, then I am back to going to walk in clinic for help with acute illness but nothing else. Likely any other conventional medical doctor is going to do the same thing with coersion cancer screening tests. So it is really pointless to go the legal battle route.

    I want to understand why doctors are doing paps on pregnant women other than “to make money”. A logical argument can go far if presented in a certain way. I know for example that the manufacturer of the pap brush does nort recommend it be used on pregnant women. Although there are no published studies that show Pap tests cause or do not cause miscarriage, it does not mean they are safe. Obviously the manufacturers has done their own studies, not published, that the brush is not safe for pregnant women otherwise they would not what to omit that in their instructions for liability. How many doctors read the instructions. I would point that out. Also that treatments for any abnormal Pap test would only be safely done after birth. I would probably decline 6 weeks postpartum testing as well. There is too much hormonal stuff going on then to get a normal pap. Women are horribly mislead. But I forgot I am not pregnant yet.

    I also found out that if a women gets pregnant within one year of having a LEEP then the risk of miscarriage is high. So why risk getting a Pap test when I am running out of time. Not that I expect any doctor to understand that reasoning.

    For over ten years I used the walkin and any inquiry for anything other than acute care was “see your family doctor”. “I don’t have one” would be greeted with “well get one” . I did find one who suggested clomid but misinformed me about risks and costs. I am not sure if I would take it because I would want to be motitored while on it.

    I am looking for natural options more that I can do myself. This what I am after.

44. I have heard that hospital births are the most traumatic “rape” events. Medical personnel constantly putting their hands up a woman’s vagina to check dilation, to many tests, too much monitoring, too much control over everything. What could be a wonderful experience is stolen from a woman.

    The lithomy position, women on her back with legs up and splayed, is the worst possible position for giving birth for the women. It only is to give the doctor complete control. Women naturally give birth either squatting, standing, kneeling on hands and knees.

    Women need to take back their bodies and their births.

45. There is a negative attitude towards menstruation.

    There was a joke that if men menstruated they would be bragging every month about how much and how long.

    Promoting hysterectomies is dangerous. It is major surgery. Other organs such as the bladder can prolapse. If the ovaries are removed a woman will immediately be pushed into menopause instead of almost a decade of getting there. Some women still cycle hormones for as long as 7 years after they stop menustruating. The ovaries provide hormones that protect against Herat disease. Even fibroids can shrink after menopause or be removed by other methods that women are often not told about at all. I would kick a doctor in the head for suggesting it for anything other than dangerous cancer.

46. Moo you need a FSH test and an anti mullerian test which would give you an idea of the quality and how many eggs you have left. I don’t see why your doctor would not at least order these simple blood tests at the very least, unless he is an absolute arsehole. Also at your age time is of the essence, so he is being a bastard by delaying any medical care.
    At 49 it is rare to get pregnant naturally although not impossible. Any celebrity that has had children past their mid forties probably used donor eggs.

    • Did any of the Australians here see the on-air mammograms on the Today Show? Lisa Wilkinson and Georgie Gardner tested to raise awareness. Give me a break, we’re drowning in awareness. “Most women are too busy etc.” when the reality is many of us have made an informed decision NOT to screen.
      It was misinformation galore and women were told mammograms are a “vitally important” test. Women were also, advised to do breast self-exams (not recommended) and to start having mammograms at 40, highly controversial. (our program targets those aged 50 to 70) There was no mention of uncertainty of benefit, false positives, over-diagnosis or over-treatment….just a one-sided sales pitch for screening. DO IT…

      They also, interviewed a radiologist, umm…they have a vested interest in screening.
      I’ve written to them…and I saw an article in Australian Doctor concerned about the program, but I haven’t seen any criticism where women might see it….it seems anything that promotes the program is okay to leave out there, no matter how bad the information.

      The on-air screening was prompted by a US newsreader who had cancer picked up after an on-air mammogram, she’s having a double mastectomy. I understand she’s 40, so screening would not even be recommended for her in many countries, and who knows what they found, has she been over-diagnosed?
      Anyway these on-air tests will serve to scare many women into screening….when screening should always be based on the evidence. Reacting to fear is not in our best interests, I’ll act on the evidence.
      http://www.australiandoctor.com.au/news/latest-news/concern-at-tv-mammography-coverage

      • I agree with Nina. You really are the best, Elizabeth, it has been fantastic to see your comments all over the web. I worked in Darwin for a year during the 1980s and as a young woman there I was astonished by the number of women who talked about their hysterectomies. I had never heard of youngish women having these in the UK. Back in the UK I hit the roll out of our call and recall system in 1988, and after two shockingly painful paps committed on me during the 1990s I have declined them ever since. As you say in an earlier post, fighting the system when you are young with no internet for help, was a lonely battle, but now that I’m middle aged I’m finding it easier. Don’t ever stop the fight, you have given a great deal of help to women you will never know. I have been very grateful for all your knowledgeable and informative postings. Best wishes always.

      • Hi Elizabeth,
        I do think that the genie is out of the bottle now and that the screening evangelists are getting scared that less and less women are believing all the propaganda. I read that in the UK only about 40% of twenty somethings are getting screened. This younger generation is in to social media, has attitude, and is probably being warned by their middle-aged mums that pap testing is not all it’s cracked up to be. Certainly the screening organisations are now putting all their weight into trying to dupe younger women into going for screening, even though they would save more lives by putting this money into other things no doubt, but then they wouldn’t get their honorary degrees, new years honours and cash bonuses if they did that would they?

        Interestingly, as well as the continuing decrease, year on year of UK women attending for their pap tests, there has also been a continuing decrease, year on year, of deaths from cervical cancer in the UK, yet the pro-screening lobby claims that their programme is solely responsible for the decrease in deaths. If this were true, deaths should increase as more and more women choose not to be screened, but this isn’t happening.

        I certainly think that the NHS cervical screening programme which was rolled out in 1988 was in breach of our human rights. I do not see how the 80% screening threshold is compatible with women having a right to choose to be screened, and I do think that they are having to tread more carefully on this issue nowadays, as more women are aware of their rights. From what I’ve seen of the new NHS propaganda leaflets, they are a step in the right direction but they don’t go nearly far enough.

    • Elizabeth, thank you very much for writing to this medical mafia!
      If we ever see the end of coercion, lies and malpractice in women’s health care, it will be because of people like you. I simply admire your actions!

      • Thank you Nina and Adawells for your kind words.
        It always takes me by surprise because I’ve been called all sorts of things over the decades, none of it complimentary, simply because I questioned the whole rotten business called women’s healthcare/cancer screening and refused to play their game.

        I must say I can FEEL change at this point, and that’s such an enormous relief.
        After many years of rejected, edited or censored comments, being banned from sites because of my “reckless comments that could cost lives”…now I find I’m in good company and on some sites, in the majority. I’m impressed that the NY Times piece contains lots of informed comments. (although we’re still miles behind here in Australia)

        I’m more motivated than ever to keep chipping away, to reach as many people as possible and keep challenging the system. Finally, we’re having an impact. I think we have a lot of people worried and that makes me very happy.

        Adawells, I think we must be roughly the same vintage, I agree it’s easier when we’re older, something happens, I’ve found middle-age to be empowering.
        I’m no longer intimidated by doctors, at this point I’d see it as an opportunity to educate if a doctor recommended a pap test or mammogram and I wouldn’t hesitate to challenge rudeness, misinformation etc.

      • Elizabeth- I’m wondering if it’s mainly the “Anglo-Sphere” that’s like that? It really does seem that America, Canada, Britain, Australia, and New Zealand all seem to act with massive similarity with this subject. Not to be offensive, but Australia seems to act like America if it were drunk (doing the same things, but with less subtlety).

        It also seems to apply to spying, too. Maybe there’s a link? A baseline drive to hi-jack people’s lives? I mentioned that OODA loop before (it stands for Observe Orient Decide Act- you’d need to observe in order to decide & act). I know this isn’t a site on tactical things, but the degree of information gathering (which includes medical information) that’s been going on is not a good sign & they’re already pretty confrontational with medical things.

        Let’s say it shows on a woman’s medical records that she hasn’t been probed this year (or month, or week, or whatever incriment), maybe that opens the door for harassment on the subject- that already seems to happen fairly often. Maybe that turns into her kids getting taken away because she’s designated an unfit mother, because she doesn’t get these tests (“it would effect the child’s well-being if she died”). Maybe this applies to children, too.

        Maybe it’s to just get a sense of controlling something by awareness? That happens a lot with martial arts (that someone thinks if they know a move or a set solution to a problem that they have a wield of that situation- a sense command of something by mentally encompassing it). Still not a good sign, either way.

        I’m not trying to randomly spook anyone, but these things DO run through my head sometimes. It’s interesting: I saw a sign from a protest in Spain & it said “My body, I decide.” I’m tempted to make a remark on that not being the general sentiment in America & parts similar to it, but maybe that kind of solidifies the situation? Sometimes it seems to have a discouraging effect to do things like saying “Is it like that here? No, of course not!” It can also be demonstrative, though- so I don’t know on that.

47. He should change his name to doctor dumb ass.

    Good to know about these tests but really they are not going to give me much hope if I cannot fix the problem and get pregnant. I am going to look them up. Thanks. I do not $$$$$ for IVF.

    Next time I go I am going to ask to see or get a copy of my abdominal ultrasound. I feel as if he is deliberately withholding information from me. He also had me do a fasting glucose and cholesterol screen but just said the results were ok after saying I never did them at first. I told him that I did them already and look at his computer. I would like to know the numbers. He keeps asking me to come in for a physical which is just going to be about his cancer screening goals and fat shaming etc, not about any of the medical issues such as infertility that concern me. He will try to get me to do a breast exam , pelvic and pap, none of which I going to do.

    At the next visit, which will not be happening until I become very ill, I better get what I want or I am going to fire him, make a complaint (not that it will do much) and go back to walk-in clinics when I am sick.

    If all roads lead to Rome then it seems that all doctor’s visits lead to women’s vaginas.

    I am tired of the conversation “when was your last Pap test?” “When was your last period?”

48. No Elizabeth I couldn’t watch it. (Couldn’t as in because I would have puked). I made some comments here and there on various sites but of course people reacted like I was insane.

    Did you read the comment in the Medical Observer in regards to the contraceptive pill being made OTC? It beggars belief. I quote:
    “Dr Gino Pecoraro, the AMA’s spokesman for obstetrics and gynaecology, said the AMA did not support the COCP being supplied without a prescription because it would remove “point of entry consultation”.
    “It’s one way to get women to go to the doctor, and once they are there, they can have a whole heap of checks and balances undertaken,” he said.
    “No one is going to give you a pill script, unless you can say that you are up to date with your Pap smear, and… unless they check your blood pressure.”

    Oh yeah? I’d like him to try that with me. I’d see him in court.

    • Something I think bears pointing out is that what he’s doing is using facts for an argument (and that doesn’t mean what it sounds like, so hold on a second). What he’s saying is STRATEGICALLY FACTUAL, so he’s saying something that IS TRUE in the “argument slot.” His reply is something that is true, so it’s now using something inagruable as ammuniton. This is what he’s “swinging” in this argument. I don’t really know what to call this, but it’s an attempt to make his whole argument non-debatable.

      Another point is to make it seem like there’s something “dying” or “hanging in the balance.” That situation (of their attempted actions taking place) is “on the line” & I guess the idea is to make it feel like a loss for this to go away.

      What is suprising is how blatant they are when they talk about this. The reply “So, it’s a way of forcing internal exams on a woman?” would probably take the wind out of their sails on the spot. So they are imposing a penetrative situation on someone that also has severe risks & high levels of inaccuracy? What wonderful people! And trustable, to be sure!

49. Mary,
    That really is disgusting, does he refuse to prescribe Viagra until men agree to prostate screening? No.
    There really are some unhealthy attitudes within the AMA, those who still view medical coercion as best practice when it comes to women.
    They’re clearly desperate to maintain their control over women and keeping the Pill on script is a great way of doing that…it’s bad medicine. Thankfully, women can get the Pill online now and cut out this sort of medical abuse…it’s a misuse of prescriptive power. I also, don’t believe most doctors behave that way, they know if the woman complains, their conduct cannot be justified…it’s medical misconduct. Pap tests, pelvic and breast exams are not clinical requirements for the Pill. End of story.
    A refusal to provide the Pill because a woman declines medical excess is a dangerous step, I’m sure it still happens, but only when the doctor thinks it’s “safe” to do so.
    The AMA needs a major clear-out of the dinosaurs….move into this century.

    I was reading the Q and A section for the Cervical Renewal Committee, all very depressing.
    Q: Will women still have to have vaginal exams in the future?
    A: Yes.
    Making clear they don’t intend to offer women HPV self-testing…it seems to me they’ll stay with 3 yearly population pap testing from age 25 to 70, so IMO, the whole review process has been a waste of time and money…a bit of show, basically juggling vested interests to find something acceptable to all parties…forget what’s best for women.
    You can imagine though…moving to the new Dutch program would take 95% of women out of pap testing and see over-treatment/excess biopsy rates plummet, that amounts to millions for vested interests. Population pap testing is IMO, a commercial, not a medical, program.

    • Remember, they call it a hysterectomy b/c they remove our hysterical pms. Doctors are supposed to perform a prostate exam before Rx’ing Viagra. Supposed being the byword.

      Doctors refuse to ditch pap/pelvic exams & go with HPV testing due to cost, and b/c they would no longer have jobs doing what they do most. Listening to sex stories, creating stats and gossiping.

      What doctor will stop the revolving door of teens, young, and mature women discussing their sex lives? From first time details, to anal & lesbian experimenting. Doctors have enjoyed locking our stressed husbands outside while we stress inside. They get to stare, smell, and feel our breasts, vaginas, and rectums. Foot fetish? Right there in front of their faces. Do we lubricate, orgasm, do we feel `that’? And so much the better if we shave.

      The AMA chief gyno named “Geno?” Imagine him letting his lifestyle go by the wayside. “Tell me Geno, do you prefer a pizza pies or a tha vaginas?” Doctors will never, willingly, take those two fingers out of our lives.

50. https://www.inspire.com/groups/national-cervical-cancer-coalition/discussion/colposcopy-last-week-starting-to-think-this-is-all-a-scam/

    So much damage and totally unnecessary and avoidable.
    This woman is starting to have doubts, it doesn’t make sense? Often after a traumatic experience women will start to question, why are we removing every “abnormal” looking cell on the cervix, yet don’t have anything like that level of diligence for anything else. We’re obsessed with the cervix, with a rare cancer.
    The damage has been done, but hopefully, some of these women are prompted to do some research…and will feel strong enough to sack this system of abuse.
    There is more female support/more doubters around these days, some of the women posting felt the same way. Of course, the system/control, fear and ignorance drags most back for more.
    Before this and a couple of other forums appeared it was difficult to find unbiased and real information on this testing and these procedures.
    It breaks my heart to see what the medical profession does to women, this is NOT medical care.

    • The above story
      “My pap came back LSIL and my doc said I have HPV 16.” I have to doubt that the HPV test came back positive for HPV 16 specifically. I am under the assumption that most commonly used HPV tests with paps only tests for either low risk or high risk serotypes and not specifically each strain. So does the lab report really say positive for HPV serotype 16 or is the doctor just trying to scare her?

      • I believe it. My dad is a pathologist and he said when he retired (2010), typing HPV was just coming to his hospital (a small town relatively rural hospital). As this article was 2011, it’s entirely possible they were able to type it.

      • Yes it is possible to type a specific HPV stereotype 16, 18 or whatever. It is just that the HPV tests that are used for cotesting with paps (done in the doctors office with the regular pelvic exam) lump the stereotypes together as low risk and high risk. To. Be clear look it up yourself from manufactuers websites. This is because it would be too expensive to test for all stereotypes separately and report each. Apparently only cancer tumors are tested for specific stereotype, that would be done from biopsy tissue from a colposcopy or surgery.

        Huge difference. Believe what you want.

51. http://qz.com/167854/doctors-shame-women-more-than-men-about-their-bodies-and-behavior/
    Interesting study on doctors shaming women more than men about their bodies and behaviour. Something we’re all familiar with… I wonder if any of the researchers have noticed the elephant in the room re the obsession with women’s reproductive healthcare.

52. What I really want to know – Are Pap tests necessary during pregnancy? I heard they are pushed at the first prenatal visit. What are the facts only?

    Apparently the instruction insert from the manufacturers of most pap liquid prep kits says not to use the endocervical brush after 8 weeks. I cannot find any published study about the risk of miscarriage and pap even though from many personal testimonies, women are experiencing bleeding and miscarriage within 48 hrs of a Pap test. I am not talking about STD testing, tests for bacteria (especially strep B) or speculum exam of the cervix, just pap. If a women has had a pap recently the why is she being pressured into paps when pregnant and 6 weeks post partum?

    I am reading conflicting views. Many are recommending no pap since harm could be done, others are about “compliance” and “opportunity”. A women with cervical cancer diagnosis can very well get pregnant and may be wise to be followed during pregnancy with colposcopy. I just think that everyone else should be left alone. I even heard one women that was scared into thinking her daughter would be born with throat cancer because she had some warts. How rare is that? Many documented once or just a “theory” about an extremely abused child. How stressful and damaging is a colposcopy and biopsies during pregnancy?

    Are obstetrians and midwives refusing patients who will not pap? I really want to know.

53. The BMJ & Dartmouth Institute are sponsoring a conference on ‘The legal and ethical implications of keeping patients in the dark’ at the Summer Institute for Informed Patient Choice in June this year. For any American’s or Elizabeth – it’s an open forum at Dartmouth Hanover NH. You could also recommend your doctor might like to attend next time they try to withhold care/birth control until you submit to their bikini medicine.
    http://siipc.org/

    • Keeping patients in the dark is about informed consent. It is. It just about the ethics of pelvic exams on in symptomatic women but many many other issues.

      Some issues that are important are not informing patients about alternative therapies or just neglecting to give information. What comes to mind in my personal experience is when I saw a surgeon about a lipoma on my back about 2 cm from my spine. She told me it was benign and surgery not covered by gov insurance. I would have to pay her $450 for surgery that would give me a scar the size of the tumor. At that time I did not have the cash and the tumor was about 2 cm. she said it might grow or not. Several years later it was very large and causing pain. I went to a other surgeon who told me that it was 0.5% cancerous. I also found out on my own that gov insurance only covered excision of tumors larger than 4 cm otherwise they were considered cosmetic. with that info I would have seeked help years before. So who was keeping me in the dark?

      There also seems no point in giving patients blood glucose and cholesterol tests without discussing the results so they could consider lifestyle changes. These are done only to medicate.

54. Si, there is also, another conference on evidence based medicine in Oxford in September. (with many of the same speakers from the 2013 Evidence Live Conference)

    Dartmouth…oh yes, I’d love to go, but it’s difficult (and expensive) to get to Dartmouth from Australia.
    Interesting…I didn’t think Peter Gotzsche from the NCI spoke that well at Dartmouth, he receives a hostile response from many of the screening zealots in the States, he seemed far more relaxed in Oxford. I noted he didn’t have much to say about mammograms at Dartmouth…many would have given up years ago, it says a lot about the man, very impressive that he’s still fighting on more than a decade after the first report was released.
    He’s definitely in my medical hall of fame.
    By the way the lectures from Dartmouth 2013 are online…some very interesting speakers.

    • Elizabeth have you checked out the Australasian Association of Bioethics and Health Law? There’s an AABHL 2014 conference in Perth, maybe not in the same league as Dartmouth, it looks really interesting and a lot more affordable though you have to pay $$ for membership. I get a newsletter and go to the occasional forum through the Queensland branch QLDHEAL, though I would have dearly loved to go to Dartmouth 2013 – I’ve watched the online lectures thanks for the links.
      https://aabhl.org/article/aabhl-2014-conference-2-4-oct-perth

55. Word is starting to get out about the effectiveness and possible dangers of mammography. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/health/study-adds-new-doubts-about-value-of-mammograms.html?_r=0
    Now if only they would study pap smears and their effectiveness.

56. http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/mammogram-study-adds-new-doubts-to-lifesaving-value-20140212-32hnl.html
    Yet another quality study showing breast screening is of no value, but leads to over-diagnosis.
    Yet the Cancer Council here are still protecting commercial interests, not women. We’re told screening will not stop based on one study, when in fact, it’s now numerous studies going back over a decade.
    Also, the usual lies are trotted out..you’re less likely to need a mastectomy if you screen, when in fact, the reverse is true, you’re more likely to have a mastectomy WITH screening.
    Hopefully, more women will be prompted to take a closer look at screening.

    • We posted the same articles from different sources about the same study. This line from the articles is interesting: “Kalager, whose editorial accompanying the study was titled Too Much Mammography, compared mammography to prostate-specific antigen, or PSA, screening for prostate cancer, using data from pooled analyses of clinical trials. It turned out that the two screening tests were almost identical in their overdiagnosis rate and had almost the same slight reduction in breast or prostate deaths.
      “I was very surprised,” Kalager said. She had assumed that the evidence for mammography must be stronger since most countries support mammography screening and most discourage PSA screening.”

      It shows how cancer screening for men is researched and examined for effectiveness and potential for harm with the results accepted and implemented and screening recommendations changed. With women’s there is a prevailing attitude of screen and don’t question with results about it’s effectiveness and potential for harm ignored. It really shows how much there are vested interests involved who do not want the programs to change.

57. Interesting the same names with a major vested interest in screening are already trying to discredit the study. It’s the same names, many of them are radiologists…hope women see their “concerns” all amount to self-interest and preserving the millions they make from screening.

58. Elizabeth, I was listening to the radio about the mammogram study and I only caught it half way through but they were interviewing somebody about the psychological effects of screening when there are false positives. And this woman said that in the UK they are going to or she was saying they should (I didn’t hear which) send a letter to women saying “have you considered screening?” and list the pros and cons instead of sending the invitation like they do now.
    Wow ! Choice and informed consent in the 21st century. Fancy that!

59. http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/02/patients-lost-trust-doctors.html
    Are they kidding? I commented, talk about missing the elephant in the very small room, now let’s ponder: why have patients lost trust in doctors?
    I hardly know where to start…or stop. (as usual…)

60. Just today there has been another article about whether to have a mammogram in today’s (UK) Guardian, newspaper. http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/feb/16/should-i-have-a-mammogram
    and also from 2012, this excellent article from a Cochrane Institute researcher http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/23/breast-cancer-screening-not-justified
    Sorry I can’t get the links to work.
    As a 52 year old Pommielady I have to say that I received my “invitation” for mammogram last year and I sent it back having filled in every bit of white space saying why I do not want to have a scan and what a waste of public money it is. I don’t think it’s going to be like the Berlin Wall coming down, but the cracks are certainly beginning to show, and the pro-screening lobby must be wondering how they are going to get out of this one. If the breast screening programme is being disclosed as fraudulent, the general public must also start asking questions about the cervical screening programme too.

    I have just been reading a very interesting article about osteoporosis screening, which analysed women’s perception of health screening. The conclusion drawn from this piece of research found that rather than empowering women, health screening programmes caused women to feel less positive about their bodies as the screening procedures caused them to feel as though they were sick, ailing and less able to do things they had previously undertaken before:
    “Making the invisible body visible. Bone scans, osteoporosis and women’s bodily experiences”, Univ of Copenhagen, 2005 The study found that medical surveillance increased the women’s dependence on scanning technology and doctors, creating new illness experiences, with women believing their bodies less capable than before and increasing their compliance with any medical treatment.

61. The mammogram figures are dropping, so now they have an advert on UK TV for the over 70’s, guess they need that 80% to keep the programme going, like any screening 80% or no difference is made.

    • OMG I haven’t seen these adverts yet, but I thought they were also trying to lower the age too to start at 47. Anything to try boosting the figures. http://www.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/554167/BCOC_Campaigns_early_2014_20.12.13.pdf

      BTW I have been reading loads of RCN documents, and came across one which covers the topic of persuading the over 70’s to keep going for mammograms, when they are no longer on the recall system. On the woman’s final mammogram the radiologist and the nurse have a pre-rehearsed discussion with the woman before she leaves. This discussion is basically scripted and practised ad nauseum, so that the woman doesn’t know it is and assumes it is a spontaneous chat. During this, the woman will be coerced into continuing her mammograms every 3 years. The authors saw nothing wrong in this at all, since they called this “empowering” these elderly ladies, and not coercion. It was in a large pink document of over 100 pages which I thought I’d downloaded from somewhere, but I can’t seem to find it at the moment.

      • Adawells, this sounds like a super interesting document.. I go and look for it too, but if you stumble upon it, would you mind sharing a link with me too? I wonder how involving nurses and radiologists in this is justified towards them, I mean is such theatrics really within their professional boundaries? And who could have written such a script, which discourses/disciplines of psychology(nudge units?) could be applied?

      • If you look at the “fierce” defenders of screening, most have a vested interest. (some are ignorant/incompetent, brainwashed etc.)
        There is one man who aggressively attacks anything that casts breast screening in a bad light; he’s head of radiology at a major American medical school. I’ve also, seen his articles with the comment at the end, “No conflict of interest”…what? You must be joking.

        I wouldn’t be taking advice from a radiologist or from anyone else with a vested interest, and sadly, that’s most people with the power and influence to get into papers and onto the television. I’ve also, noticed the vocal radiologists defending mammography always hark back to old studies that were discredited by the NCI ages ago. (they’ve got nothing else to work with)
        When someone finds fault with everything negative about screening, publicly and aggressively dismisses it as soon as it appears and makes threats, “some women will die if they accept this poor research and stop screening” = vested interest. Attack is the simplest form of defence. Don’t get too close or you’ll see my argument looks like swiss cheese.
        i think ego comes into it too, if you’ve been banging on about something for decades, some can’t accept they were wrong.

        The NCI is an independent, not-for-profit medical research group, I’ll take their research any day ahead of the protests from the Head of Radiology at X or Y Medical School.

        The Australian program is being extended to include those aged 71 to 74 (from memory) there is no evidence of benefit, but what the hell, when did they ever worry about that? It’s good political brownie points and more profits for vested interests. We’ll harm some of these women, of course, and possibly kill some of them, over-treatment might mean surgery and/or radiotherapy and chemo, these things knock you around and I imagine are more likely to end in death (from heart attacks or lung damage) if you’re older or in poor physical shape.
        Of course, this may help them reach their precious target, it’s clear those 50 to 70 are saying NO in increasing numbers. Gotta get the numbers up…find more women! We’ll be setting up Clinics in nursing homes and Universities next, nothing would surprise me with these people.

      • Again the use of the word “empowering”.. why did this poor word got so co-opted, because it is so dangerous?

62. Chas, I don’t think screening 80% would help given the evidence, not that anyone is interested in the evidence, but more and more studies are showing the risks exceed any benefit provided by breast screening and benefit is debatable anyway.
    As for cervical screening, as we all know, when you’re looking for a needle in a haystack with a defective pitchfork, well, it’s all a bit futile, and we harm heaps, now we can identify the handful at actual risk, but choose not to, too much money is made harming the masses.
    Keep piling up the tests and keep day procedure busy.

    • “Looking for a needle in a haystack with a defective pitchfork,” dead-on analogy with that Elizabeth!

      I really don’t think medicine (allopathic medicine, at least) is geared toward assisting people at all. More & more it’s about malice & money. It’s an avenue to affect someone, plain & simple. Since all kinds of medical information includes your address & phone number, this can be “hitting someone where they live” in a residential sense, too.

      It’s also a point that they may or may not know various things about your life & about the people connected to you. It seems they think they’re perfectly free to just ask about things & it can be pretty hard to shut someone’s questions down. What do you say to them? As it is, they don’t listen when someone refuses something at the top of their lungs & there’s no reason to think your words will shut down their actions. I guess you can just lie & mixing lies with the truth can be useful, both for deception & acting like they “misunderstood” or “incorrectly filed data” (they do it often enough).

    • Thanks Elizabeth, once again you are correct, very little evidence. I still cannot believe how much they protect these programmes. Another site worth a look is Science Daily, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/02/140217085248.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily%2Fhealth_medicine%2Fcervical_cancer+%28Cervical+Cancer+News+–+ScienceDaily%29

      • This is really interesting too:
        “Some types of papilloma virus might prevent cervical cancer”
        http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130410082417.htm

      • This looks like really good news for anyone who has an abnormal smear and might spell the end for invasive treatment of the cervix, but not the dreaded smear test itself, I fear. With the problem in Africa and the developing world there is no way that they will be able to afford a cervical screening programme like we in in the first world have to endure. I hope that developments in combatting this disease in Africa will result in some sort of solution, which will make our horrible smear test procedure a thing of the past.

63. My doctor can make $6.86 for just asking me if I want a Pap test, flu vaccine, or mammogram each every two years. He gets $7.00 for trying to give me an FOBT card though. I wonder why that is higher. If I actually do these tests I know that if he makes a quota he will receive $2200.00 incentive bonus for the year for getting patients on his hit list. The government provides the hit list.

    Surprised when talking to a friend. She told me that she “missed” her pap this year when she got her yearly checkup. She said the doctor would “check” if she needed it or could get it. She was surprised when I told her it was changed to every three years if normal before and that if she wanted it every year she would have to pay for it. The doctor never explained this.

    I found a government doc that states the change in funding paps every three years from yearly will save $millions. I wonder just how much $$$ would be saved from cutting the incentive bonus and hit list. I would rather the money be spent on people who are sick.

64. I just wondered if anyone had seen the photos of Beth Whaanga, which appeared in the UK press recently? I’m really shocked by them. I noticed that the operation is called “breast reconstruction” and not “abdominal mutilation”. I understand that she had the gene, which means she has a 45% chance of getting breast cancer, but I’m not sure I would have opted for such drastic surgery myself.

    • Thank you I have just looked at the pictures, how awful! 45% risk of cancer, but I would look at it as a 55% chance of my body doing its job and not getting cancer. What is it with womens medicine, they deem every bit of our bodies as disposable, well not mine and not many others too. Just checking that rcn link now, thanks again.

      • Hi Chas and Karen,
        I’ve found the booklet and it wasn’t an RCN one at all. It’s from our very own “National Harming Stasi” and it’s called NHS Breast Screening Programme Annual Review 2010. http://www.cancerscreening.nhs.uk/breastscreen/publications/2010review.html
        If you turn to page 10 there is a chapter called Improving awareness in women over 70. Prof. Amanda Ramirez talks about her PEP Intervention programme, where the 10 minute scripted coercion talk is aimed at the unsuspecting woman to get her to continue with her mammograms. I quote:
        “The PEP intervention is a scripted, 10 minute, one to one interaction between a screening radiographer and a woman….The radiographer is given careful training beforehand, including detailed preparation around the script or conversation. It is very much an interactive script with room for women to ask questions and the woman will probably not be aware that it is scripted at all. However, the conversation has been carefully designed to maximise change in behaviour. This is not about scaring women about breast cancer. It is about empowering women to take control of their health…”

      • “It is about empowering women to take control of their health…”
        Of course, it is…that phrase is often used to justify disgraceful medical conduct. Control of your health always means doing what they want us to do…
        it reminds me of the tips sent to our GPs on opportunistic pap testing and suggested answers to any of our concerns. So the pap test is raised, if we decline we’re asked why and there we have a list of responses…hopefully, it ends with the woman having the test. (even if she doesn’t want it)
        How did we move so far away from ethical screening, where a simple, “No, thanks” must be accepted, screening is supposed to be our choice to accept or decline as we see fit. We shouldn’t need an “excuse” or have to engage in a debate defending our position. (an unfair debate in the doctor’s territory) I think this is why real information was suppressed, so women really couldn’t defend their position apart from, “it might hurt” etc.
        In the prepared answers there is no response for, “I’ve made an informed decision not to screen.” No wonder some women say they didn’t realize testing was optional.
        The manipulation of women is another demonstration of the attitudes at work here and their disrespectful view of women.

65. Hey Everyone, if you would like to know how thoroughly corrupt and evil the gyn industry is, just look at this: http://www.blogher.com/frame.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.owningpink.com%2Fblogs%2Fowning-pink%2Fthe-book-tour-week-1-the-truth-not-the-hype&_back=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogher.com%2Fdiscovering-my-erotic-creature%3Fwrap%3Dfree-tagging%2Facceptance%26crumb%3D5172

    This vile gyn Lissa Rankin has written a book with the vile title ” What’s Up Down There? Questions You’d Only Ask Your Gynecologist If She Was Your Best Friend ” (again trivialising and normalising the protocols and methods of an industry founded by a man experimenting on slaves). Ok so she wrote this vile book, and what she did.. a f–ing launch party IN A STRIPPERCIZE AEROBIC STUDIO!!
    “The Sexy Launch Party
    No book launch would be complete without a launch party, and the one hosted by Sheila Kelley’s S Factor was a hoot- smoking hot women dancing on poles, while we chatted, talked about vaginas, sold and signed books, and rallied together to empower women. The whole thing was very chill and relaxed, and the S Factor women were definitely my peeps. They GET what my book is about, so I didn’t have to sell the book”

    Could anyone have made this ghastly shit up… it is fun to pretend you sell sex, it is friendship to let a stranger touch your vagina, and profiteer on the privilege.. if there has ever been a disgusting hypocrite, this Lissa Rankin, MD is one. Look at this esoteric/empowering stuff she posts, she collects email addresses under “The Daily Flame”

    (“Here’s a sample of the type of message you’ll receive:
    It’s time for an unabashed love letter.

    I adore you so much I want to pinch your cheeks and kiss them while wearing bright red lipstick so you can see all the evidence. “)

    She has posts on her blog like “Coming out of the Spiritial Closet”(http://www.owningpink.com/blogs/owning-pink/coming-out-of-the-spiritual-closet), she wrote a book called “Mind Over Medicine”
    so ok, she talks the talk, but does she walk the walk? Obviously not, when it comes to pelvic exams on asymtomatic women… see what she thinks of the new pap guidelines- http://www.owningpink.com/blogs/owning-pink/no-more-annual-paps-ladies

    “What concerns me about these new guidelines is that women will mistakenly assume that they need only visit the doctor every three years- and that women younger than 21 will avoid the gynecologist altogether. But what about STD testing? What about contraceptive counseling? Often, the “Honey, it’s time for your first Pap smear” visit arranged for an 18 year old girl by mom is the first chance a doctor gets to educate a young woman about her health. Mom may not know she’s sexually active, so that visit turns out to be a good time to talk about safe sex, discuss birth control, and educate about things like the morning after pill. If Mom now thinks her daughter doesn’t need to see a gynecologist until she’s 21, she may wind up there before 21 pregnant, with a host of sexually transmitted diseases.

    Annual exams are also an opportunity for a woman to discuss preventative health issues with her doctor- other cancer screening opportunities, hormone balancing issues, sexual difficulties- whatever. If women are discouraged from annual Paps, will they mistakenly also be discouraged from yearly opportunities to become empowered about their bodies?””

    EVERYTHING about this paragraph.. as if 18yrs old girls were dogs, but if someone would try to arbitrarily penetrate a dogs vagina to “educate” them they would end up worse than a mother who does this to their daughter in the USA. A 18 yrs old has maybe a 1:million chance to get cervical cancer, so she justifies violating this hypothetical 18yrs old by saying they can’t listen otherwise (and what happens then, not all young people are sexually active, and there is plenty of information to be found on the internet and books). These hidden threats and coercion through the flowers… oh how I hate vile people like this Lissa Rankin, MD co-opting discourses of empowerment and feminism.
    On her website she advertises this fucking absurd (what on earth is this…”essential life skill”?) of her comrade Kim Amani (http://www.owningpink.com/blogs/owning-pink/can-strong-vagina-keep-you-getting-botox)

    “Can you shoot ping pong balls with your vagina?
    If you can’t you aren’t alone. 99.9% of women haven’t mastered this essential life skill. Once you do, you’ll have more (and better) orgasms, and be able to cause your man to ejaculate (or not!) ”

    Lissa Rankin MD, do you know what an essential life skill is? Seeing through the BS of people like you!

    • This chick’s probably a flaming lesbian! People forget about that angle- just because someone’s straight that doesn’t mean that they aren’t aggressive about it, same goes for homosexuality.

      That empowerment angle is pretty sneaky. There’s nothing empowering about having someone else comport what is done to your own body. How is someone else telling you what’s going to happen a personal decision? I’m willing to bet if DAD orchestrated this situation, it’d get considered a problem. Is it supposed to be sweet & nuturing because it comes from mommy? Or maybe because she’s also female, it’s like she’s doing this to herself? Either one is untrue, but so is the idea that lacking of bodily autonomy is being empowered.

      As for shooting ping pong balls- if 99.9% of women can’t do it, how do that many guys get off at all? That angle of being sexually capable, or not, is kind of a subtle slam to someone’s womanhood- which was just called into question because she doesn’t outsource her decisons of what goes where to other people. That “or not” part strikes me as an added jab about holding sway. It’s actually sounds a little confrontational, doesn’t it? Like she’s deliberately cutting things short just to cause the guy a problem.

      It’s the exact same concept as a man not being large enough to please his woman & thus not very manly (a popular sale-pitch for various enlargement products, I might add). Oddly enough, something women see right through in that situation! If someone were to add in “Oh, add let someone stick something up your ass or you’re immature & unmanly,” that would be roughly the same proportion as what’s pitched at women.

      • I am with you Alex on this one… she seems CUNNING, in a predatory manner. For example this “Daily Flame”, I bet the niceties are written by a bot, they cost nothing to send, and an email database of gullible people prone to such manipulations has value. It is all very 1984, the whole doublespeak about empowerment. If someone endorses any coercion related to pelvic exams (HATE SPEECH) and actually admits coercing women into pelvic exams(RAPE) they can chew on their esoteric/empowering/feminist nuggest all day, I will not buy into it. The harms of mammogramms are pretty much mainstream knowledge at this point (so are the harms of pelvic exams on asymptomatic women btw), and of course I see it as a very positive sign that she is critical of mammogramms, but the whole making gynaecology sexy/friendly/cool- ie empowering thing, via pairing it to lifestyle choices such as the strippercize aerobic (again the same “liberal” feminist freedom principle, a womans freedom to objectify herself, to consume, to cast aside any dignity?) is so hypocritical and disgusting, and on top of that, the whole co-opted empowerment discourse applied to coercing poor 18yrs olds to get pelvic exams. And don’t get me wrong, regarding esoteric knowledge, I am just as angry about spiritualism being co-opted as feminism, and I regard such knowledge very highly. And if she is beyond this ugly faux-empowering nonsense, why does she not pull this content from her Owning Pink website, or at least publish a disclaimer?She does seem to manage her brand very consciously, so it would make sense.

      • Yeah, “cunning” is the right word. Something can’t be deliberately refined like that without someone knowing what they’re doing (it’s like saying someone camouflaged something by accident). It’s weird how so many things are the opposite of what they’re described as. I’ve noticed this as a constant thing in America.

        Another thing is the constant ploy of innocence. Someone deliberately does something & it’s somehow an accident. Someone argues tooth & nail against something & then pretends to be on the same side as the one they were arguing with (especially when they’re losing). Always acting like they’re in pain, so someone feels bad about going agaisnt them (that wincing, hurt look people get when they dispute things like this is noticeable).

        Another thing that worries me is things like this going on in the schools. Misinformation & at a young age, of course- but since you get arrested for general behavior now, not just “misbehavior, it really worries me that someone’s going to try to dispute these things & get in trouble. Of course, that can turn into similar problems coming from a law enforcement angle (and from doctors, while captive). Apparently, strip searching anyone arrested (regardless of what assumption they were arrested under) is perfectly legal & they already go after kids this way.

    • One more thing I forgot: simple lying can be a subtle tactic (because it’s sometimes unexpected).

      They keep saying things that are in direct contradiction to the situation. They’ll say something causes problems that don’t, something fixes problems that don’t, something’s safe & it isn’t. This is with medicine, in general.

      That whole thing about “empowerment” is the exact opposite of what goes on. These people are manipulating someone & then saying “it’s empowering them.” The same goes with “encouraging” people to get tests & such. It’s pushing them into it (whether through deception, coercion, or whatever). Really displays that this is NOT what they are inclined toward. Actually writing a script, which is camouflaged to look like it’s non-scripted conversation, and is rehearsed beforehand is not accidental.

      Just wondering: Do you think “empowering” is like some kind of joke to them? Maybe they figure they have this impetus to drive an action are transferring (“empowering”) that impetus to someone else- like running a current through somebody that’s geared in a particular direction. I know that’s a bit complex & I guess it could just be simple contradiction, but sometimes that long, winding, bizarre reasoning is exactly what you run into. Especially if somoene’s trying to use confusion to conceal something.

    • Just realized: the name of this chick’s site is “owning pink.” What does that sound like? Considering that “pink” is a reference to a particular spot on a woman’s body, that’s a bit of a red flag.

      According to her, even her daughter said “Mommy you love vaginas, don’t you?” Wow creepy is that? This kid’s young enough to still call her mother “Mommy” & this is a situation that she is picking up on. Obviously, the woman thinks that it’s not wrong for the mother corralling her daughter into this situation- so what happens when this daughter gets older? Her mother’s probably going to think that she (pardon my expression, but it is apt phrasing) “owns her daughter’s pink.”

      She has a real non-threatening, hippy-ish, “I identify with you” kind of demeanor, but she’s a snake in the grass. Look at how she’s saying all kinds of things about basically being liberated & empowered, but yet is trying to commandeer the woman’s situation & applaud one that undermines a woman quite severely. Saying that the doctor will probably require an exam to get birth control & not mentioning that that’s illegal, much less a coerced violation of both her body gives lie to that whole “women’s lib” theme.

    • I own Lisa Rankins book Mind Over Medicine and really like. She is also not a “flaming lesbian” but is married to a man and has a daughter. She wrote “What’s Up Down There” before Mind Over Medicine and over the years has changed her opinions about healthcare. She has discussed cancer screening including that mammography does not save lives and that it is a woman’s decision to make. She is an advocate of taking charge of your health and your body including saying no to your Dr and declining tests and procedures. She even discussed that people should know the pros and cons of cancer screening and consider them and the potential harms: https://www.facebook.com/lissarankin/posts/705934769435947
      Personally I would want a Dr like her.

      • I don’t know anything about her, but recall when I posted a fairly strong comment on her website, she thanked me and agreed with many of my points. In sharp contrast there is another American doctor who closes down threads, deletes posts, she IMO, protects pap testing and clearly does not want her patients to know the evidence. (or to imagine they could decline pap testing, pelvic exams etc.) She was very threatened by open and informed discussion on her site.
        Of course, she wrote an article on breast screening which appeared on the Kevin MD site, she’d take it for granted that she can say whatever she likes with no censorship, yet denies that right to those who post at her site. If she doesn’t like your posts, end of discussion.

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