forwomenseyesonly

Discussion Forum (Unnecessary Pap Smears: Part Two)

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.

3,978 comments

  1. No, you’re not. Your objection should have been the end of it. Your body, your rules.

    Sounds like he was being honest in a situation where it would get taken as being facetious. The stuff he was saying was probably true, but seeing as that would be fucked-up if that were the case, someone might not believe it to be anything but a joke. It also sounds like a running theme to deliberately do things so they hurt. Of course, afterward it’s either deemed an accident or something wrong with the person it happened to.

    In the first place: Even as a means to an end, something of this nature would be of a problematic methodology. I believe it’s called “sexual dissonance” when something is against the grain on that level. People start acting like reality doesn’t apply to medical personnel like when they say “It’s not like that, it’s a doctor.” It’s not like what? Reality? It’s suprising how people argue that someone’s personal alignment on a situation isn’t a factor to base decisions on (which is, of course, a personal alignment someone has on a situation)

    If you get arguments on this subject (which might come up, since I’d imagine you’re not going to be going to this guy again & will probably start looking up natural cures & more self-sufficient methods of care- Rosemary Gladstar is a good place to start looking on that, by-the-way) here’s some ammo:

    Properties don’t change by designation- if a doctor poisoned someone with a needle, it’s still murder. A situation is what it consists of & if that situation consists of an interface with a sexual area as a product of someone else’s decision-making is an attack- it’s just called an “iatrogenic attack” if it’s done with a medical methodology. Unless someone wants to argue that what happens ISN’T what occurs, that’s pretty much the end of it.

    Keep in mind that a lot of things in medicine don’t work as advertised (particularly with women, I’ve noticed) and all of those ramifications are not somehow less existant when caused by medical procedures. There are numerous risks & inaccuracies to things that are “suggested” to women (particularly at a young age, like under 35) & it’s even illegal for doctors to coerce women into these things like they do with birth control. There’s also the financial reasons like repeat “service” costs & even bonus incentive payments for reaching target numbers on various things. All this is something to factor in.

    It seems like most issues for women have something to do with their liver not metabolizing hormones well, so changing diet might do a lot (especially since there’s a lot of estrogen & things that simulate estrogen in the food in the U.S.A.). It seems like your situation is a hormonal imbalance (which certainly seems like something that can be diagnosed with a blood and/or urine test). Horseradish is really good for the liver. Rosemary Gladstar has a book specifically for wome (Herbal Healing for Women) and one that’s fairly multi-use (175 Herbal Recipes). That might be a good place to start looking.

    Sorry if this was long, but I wanted to give you as much as I could without droning on. It seems a lot of women don’t hear much about bodily autonomy or thinking compositionally (or they hear that these are immature, stupid, or otherwise defective traits).

  2. First of all, I am so sorry this has happened to you. My first exam was when I was 17, at the hands of a male gyn, so I fully understand the feelings of violation you are experiencing. Have you told your mother how very upset you are? Does she know what he said to you about the pretty ones taking the longest? She needs to understand how distressed you are. Even if she says this is part of being a woman or that you will need to get used to these exams, it still has to be your decision who touches your body. No-one and I will emphasise this again, no-one has the right to touch you without your permission. This doctor should not have dismissed your reluctance to submit to this exam, and his comment to you at the end of the consult is a red flag. My views on doctors like him are unprintable.

    Don’t let anyone tell you that this is OK. If you felt violated, you were violated.

    • Yeah & someone saying “this is part of being a woman” they’re wrong. An action has to be engaged in order to occur. If a husband beat his wife, they see that as an interjected action that is not “just part of being married.”

  3. Not exactly related to this specific story, but keep in mind that sometimes hospital workers get very bossy. We’ve been over this here & there before, but I thought I’d mention it to the 16-year-old that just posted.

    Something you frequently hear with car accidents & falls (but, apparently, can be linked to just being brought to the emergency room for trauma) is them imposing rectal exams on people. They say it’s something for detecting spinal damage/internal bleeding/broken bones, but it’s actually not viable for that. Abdominal MRIs & CT scans are (and are actually the standard of care), but they don’t always feel like doing that.

    There was even a case in New York where a guy walked into a hospital for stitches on his head & then five people held him down forced a recal exam on him (iatrogenically raped him)- then he spent three days in jail for defending himself (and all kinds of various security & hygiene measures get aimed at people in that situation- convicted or not).

    They try to use a short time-frame as an excuse, but that is basically saying ‘That they don’t have time to NOT molest the patient” or “To NOT waste time doing things that would be superfluous even if it was consensual.” Them wanting to help doesn’t mean anything, either. Altruism doesn’t produce ownership (even IF someone actually had charitable feelings). They also act like they go according to patterns, but they don’t have attacking the patient as an option for behavior (whether that’s individually or attached as a rider to something else).

    • I was recently reading a doctors forum. The digital rectal exam (DRE) is not allowed in some Emergency Rooms (ER). It is a quick test to determine if there is bleeding in the rectum or other parts of the intestinal tract. Ultrasounds or X-rays or other imaging technology are much better for diagnosis of an injury with much more information but I suppose some doctors will justify the assault for triage. Some of the doctors were complaining that their reagent was removed or locked up for this test and some had contraband hidden.

      The bimanual and DRE is still part of the women pelvic exam for most doctors defending that they can detect tumors that way. However if a women is not complaining about anything why bother? Some women have ovary swelling that corrects itself and they do not need surgery just to check if it is cancer on a slim chance.

      Doctors seems to care too much about statistical odds. I once calculate the odds of winning a particular lottery. Buying one ticket or two or one hundred did not really make it likely I would win even if buying two was twice the odds of buying one. The odds of winning were still out in space somewhere.

      Polycystic ovary syndrome is overdiagnosed. That is my opinion. Every perimenopausal women would be diagnosed if some doctors had their way. It is to supposed to be even diagnosed until age 18 and not for teenagers who usually have irregular cycles. The herbal and diet therapies are purposely suppressed by the pharmaceutical and medical industries.

  4. Something to look up: there’s an article in The Guardian that’s titled: When You Call Rape Anything Other Than Rape, You Are Just Making Excuses For Rapists.

    It gets into all kinds of stuff where things of that nature aren’t seen as being that way & are basically exalted. There was even a case where a judge forbade a woman & her attorney from using the words “rape” & “sexual assault” in a case!

    • Sorry did I forget to say that a DRE in ER is rape and a bimanual exam in ER is rape unless there is consent. If the patient is conscious the it is still rape because it is without consent and possibly medically unnecessary. Women in labour constantly having someone put their hand up their vagina to check their “dilation” without consent is rape too. It all happens in the medical field. It should not.

      A women who is drunk at a party can be raped if she is so inebriated that she is unable to give consent. A woman who starts with consent to sexual activity but anything asks for it to stop, it is rape.

      In Canada legally it is all called “sexual assault” and their are various degrees. So a rape with a weapon and penetration is sexually assault assault with a weapon, forcible confinement, attempted murder and just someone pinching a woman’s butt in the subway is sexual assault or harassment. The more serious the crime, the more charges. Yet many get off in charges or there is never a complaint made to police.

      So if a doctor tells a woman that if she does not get a pelvic exam then she is denied other necessary medical treatment or threats her in other ways. To me, that is a crime. There should be a new law?

  5. So. Ow the FDA has approved the Roche test for HPV. http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm394773.htm

    What is being recommended in the FDA release is that women over 25 testing positive for HPV strains 16 and 18 be sent to colposcopy and all other positives for HPV recommend Pap tests.

    What? So now all the women testing positive for HPV strains 16 and 18 are going to be over treated. Nothing mentioned about regression rates. After a few years of horror stories and infertility the HPV vaccine will be pushed onto more young girls. Maybe a few vaccinated women will find they are no longer immune and sue Merck.

    How many young women and girls died or injured from the HPV vaccine?

  6. Well…the result of the LONG overdue cervical screening review has been released, it was mentioned on the News this evening, we’re moving to HPV testing every 5 years from age 25 to an absurd 70 or 74. (the invasive test)
    No mention of HPV self-testing, we’re told it’s the same “simple” test as the pap test, so clearly they are not planning on allowing women to test themselves or alert them to the possibility.
    We’re told the change is due to this “new” HPV test (hardly…) and the “success” of the HPV vaccine. (for whom?)

    So there will still be a healthy pool of young women being over-treated, those profits are safe and no HPV self-testing.

    To sum up: we’re starting too early, testing too often and for too long and no offer of HPV self-testing. I noticed in the notes of the Renewal Committee that HPV self-testing will only be used to reach under-screened or unscreened women.
    They can’t help themselves, part of the announcement includes a young radio announcer telling us her “cervical cancer” was caught early by cervical screening and…(wait for it…) “my older sister had cervical cancer as well”…bingo, sounds to me we simply have two young women over-treated after a false positive pap test. What are the chances of two 20-something women actually getting invasive cervical cancer? INCREDIBLY RARE
    What are the odds of over-treatment? VERY HIGH
    The dishonestly is breathtaking and the disrespectful way they treat women continues, I suspect that will never change while they can get the majority of women through the door, and of course, they continue to use words like “must” and “should” screen.
    I heard a woman say on the radio, “it’s disappointing there is still nothing better than that horrid, painful and embarrassing test”…umm, yes there is, it’s just that Aussie women will only the offered self-testing as a last resort to get them into the program.

    • Won’t word get around that non-attenders will be offered a self-test though? I read somewhere that in the Netherlands, women deliberately stayed away when they knew a self-test would be sent to them if they didn’t attend, and this affected the uptake of the screening programme. I do think women will be more aware, that if they have tested HPV- and they are in a monogamous relationship they will surely question the need to keep re-attending, won’t they?

  7. Ada, I hope so, but there has been no mention of HPV self-testing, they obviously want to keep it quiet and only offer it to the hard-to-reach women. They’ve told women the new test will be similar to a pap test.
    I’ve been posting wherever I can, but true to form, most articles don’t permit comments. I also, heard the Netherlands saw a bit of a revolt and more women demanded self-testing. It’s outrageous that after decades of invasive testing the medical profession is still so resistant to self-testing, clearly many do not respect our bodily privacy, bodily comfort, our right to choose etc. I also, think they fear losing control of women, an offensive concept.
    I also, note our self-testing kits will only be available from a GP who also, provides cervical screening. (I suppose they’ll pressure the women to have the invasive test and if all else fails, they can at least keep track of her)
    Needless to say I will not be testing and any call and recall will be welcomed with delight as I reach for my keyboard to pen off a firm reply. I fully intend to speak to my solicitor if they don’t take NO for an answer or if they refuse to remove me permanently from any register.

  10. I know this is going to sound paranoid, but doing something like that on a T.V. might be a bit of an issue (digital broadcasts- all kinds of computers & waves & such, I figure maybe that can be an “anyone sees what you have on T.V.” issue).

  11. It’s mystery to me, why on earth would I want to view my cervix? Is there a device I can buy to view my inner ear? Honestly, the obsession with the poor cervix is hard to fathom. It would be healthier to leave the cervix alone, forget about it and get on with our lives. The cervix is the least of our worries. Do we obsess over other rare cancers? Most people don’t fret as much over far more common cancers? (like bowel cancer)
    We should stop the widespread damage being caused to the cervix, the poor thing is endangered. I’ve said it before, but I fear my cervix will be unique, “an intact cervix, now extinct thanks to the outstanding success of the cervical screening program”.

    • It seems like in other countries, a lot of other countries, they don’t have the same zeal for medical destruction that the “Anglo-sphere” countries do. That’s not just true for women, but also for men & children. I don’t know how it is in Australia (sounds a lot like America, just more direct about it), but in America it’s very common to not hear much about the rest of the world (except that it’s “worse over there”).

      You’re right about the fixation being bizarre & that other things don’t get focused on as much. I don’t think risks & percentages have much to do with it. It’s a “medical culture” thing. Big part of why I factor in how things are with birth control when I’m looking at different countries. If it’s not over-the-counter, it seems that the medical environment is also very dictatorial & sabotaging with other things. This is an important thing with the stuff that can very easily take place behind closed doors- like maybe someone’s injured or unconscious in the hospital & they go after them using medical methods (or not, either one is possible- that’s kind of my point).

  12. It’s also, amazing how little some doctors understand about screening, in a medical forum (you can’t access it unless you’re registered) a doctor has said our new program should be approved because America has shown us that a negative pap test and if you’re HPV- means you won’t get cervical cancer within the next 5 years even if you’re re-infected the day after the test.

    Now: if you’re HPV- you can’t benefit from a pap test, it’s pointless, but the American practice of doing both tests leads to the most over-investigation.
    They also, don’t seem to grasp that many women can forget further testing if they’re no longer sexually active or confidently monogamous, although the latter will never be mentioned, they prefer to play it safe and assume all men are unfaithful. Of course, that should be the woman’s call, it’s none of your doctor’s business.

  13. Thanks Moo. I did my own search, and further went “examining” med books.

    Nowhere could I find how the “new” test specimen was performed or collected. I called my gyn who I haven’t seen for 4yrs now. The receptionist explained that the pap sample is divided onto two specimen plates. One is tested for cc; the other for HPV. No self test offered so far. She made sure to mention another bill for the HPV test too. Roche also goes propaganda wild talking about paps, then mentions “IF” necessary there’s our HPV test.

    Only then, when you go deeply into the info, do you find stats that reflect what so many women have written here. CC is rare, the cervix varies & heals itself. HPV is the problem (but no mention why we can’t get by w/o pap’s). The pap is even shown to be useless but still recommended. As is the bimanual. Then there’s the stats, and the always heroic personal stories of how lives were saved…of course. Oh how we all fought cc and won!!

    I had to keep from vomiting when the site features the four smiling faces representing four different racial and age profiles of women. But where was the prostitute? The man? The dirty-fingered leering doctor? Those who really spread HPV? How about a smiling speculum? Like Roche says, “the devil’s in the details.” Keep that in mind.

    In the Q&A section, it’s posted “Does a pap test hurt?” Before the answer was given, over 3″ of bs was written about the stats what, why, when, a woman needs one. And heaped with scare tactics about “what could happen if skipped/avoided, with possible cancer diagnosis.” At the end, the usual disclaimer “it might be uncomfortable, but should not hurt.”

    In the med book, I learned more appropriate info. Essentially EVERY statement various women have listed here was confirmed. The ultra low percentages of women actually getting cancer, how more often than not the cervix takes care of itself, how the cervix can vary over time, the few strains of HPV that cause most troubles, and most amazingly, how it’s better to wait, repeat screening, wait more & screen again, before proceeding to the next step. It would seem that finally things are being done right.

    But then I see the box listing new US diagnostic codes. These did not include a thing about HPV involvement. Simply if a patient has xx, then off to treatment… The only treatment listed was LEEP. Cryo and others were barely mentioned. LEEP was discussed like it was butter for bread.

    Then the small print. Since it cuts/fries off a chunk of one’s cervix, listed in mm cutting depth, percentages were offered of permanent outcomes. Included was an inability to carry a pregnancy to term, or the body to regenerate the portion cut off even if given estrogen cream over a month or more. Infection possibly indicated by malodorous discharge. Long term recovery no matter what. Pain, bleeding… And, an impossibility to generate cervical mucous. The last being critical to our body to protect our uterus’.

    Have any of you been offered this information before treatment? Did the local anesthetic, if offered, prevent pain? What about post procedure?

    Further, I reviewed my own medical records. My Kaiser obgyn back in the ’80’s told me he was saving my life via cryosurgery to my cervix. He said I had dysplasia with the classic brickwall cellular appearance. Here’s my biopsy results: Atypical squamous metaplasia with endocervical minochronic inflammation. Comments anybody?

    Regarding US healthcare system to those outside US. ObamaCare does not help things. Paying doctors less, when they already have had huge cuts in reimbursement is not an incentive. Requiring patients to fork over the first $10K does not get me into the doctor when I’m sick unless I can print dollar bills myself. Why is it so expensive for uninsured?

    Insurance companies make payment contracts from the doctor, the lab, to the pharmacy. Fee for service reimbursement is usually based on local reasonable and customary expenses, recognized for what the doctors in the area charge. However, HMO’s pay one fee per month no matter what happens-healthy or sick. Hence cheaper. Doctors make money by screwing patients out of care or by using poor quality generic medications. Uninsured pay full b/c they cannot negotiate. Illegal aliens and those who run on the bill add tremendously to the expenses everybody else has to pay. Exactly as shoplifters make everyday goods cost more. As does programs like MedicAid or MediCal in California where I live. Reimbursements run as low as $10 for an office visit. Somebody has to pay. When ObamaCare is the law of the land, the only insurer, then you bet mandates will fly demanding we do this or that. Competition is good.

    Abortion? Fine. I’m all for women controlling their own bodies. But nobody in US prosecutes providers who kill, maim, molest, rape, spread disease, rip cervix & uterus, etc. The news stations don’t care about the nation’s poor who fall victim to this either. So perverts choose that profession b/c they remain invisible and have a monopoly. Some women use abortion as birth control or sex selection. Or wait until 8th month to make up their minds. Do you find that morally responsible or properly owning our own bodies?

    As for wanting to view my own cervix? I do. Why? I own it. I should know and understand exactly what the doctor does and sees if I’m to rule my own care. If I read about tests & treatments etc, then shouldn’t I fully know, and be able picture in my own mind, that part of me being tested? I look into my mouth when the dentist is finished, why shouldn’t I peek at my cervix? We are the first generation of women who are demanding respect for our bodies while in the stirrups. If I know what my cervix looks like today, I’ll have a better chance of knowing if something is wrong tomorrow should its appearance radically differ.

    There is a clinic in US that caters strictly to cancer. State of the art. So far, no commercials have been aired of women there being treated for cc.

    • Ok. So some women do want to look at their own cervix. Why do people think that is weird?

      No one really needs a machine with a camera that hooks up to the tv but it would make the tour easier and in greater detail. Just add some regular household vinegar (acetic acid) and that is your self colposcopy with no biopsy. Treatment for white areas (HPV) could be done with food grade hydrogen peroxide (appropriate dilution) or other herbal remedies including vitamins or just leave it alone. If things are really bad then go see a doctor but at least a woman could compare what she sees in the text books online.

      The cheaper version is go to a local medical supply and purchase brand new speculum (sterile speculum required for pregnant women). A package of 10 is around $8 or less for plastic speculum or buy a metal one and sterilize it by boiling it in a pressure cooker after washing it. Use a flashlight or lamp and a mirror.

      Most of the yearly pelvic exams is a waste of tax payers money in Canada. It takes away from people who are really sick getting care. Plus I do not feel that doctors are entitled to any encentive payments for cancer screening.

      • Moo- looking at the cervix started out as a second wave feminist project, when they had these self help groups, and underground abortion clinics- to me it is a very symbolic thing, sort of claiming back your own capital. It makes sense if you look at it in the context of feminist politics, health policy history, and it would make sense if someone is really worried about their cervix due to decades of brainwashing, but can’t stand doctors anymore.

  14. Elizabeth I heard a woman from the Women’s Hospital in Melbourne being interviewed on the radio about a new women’s health book . The last question the DJ asked was about the new anouncement about HPV testing. The woman drew a deep breath and said that women will have to discuss that with their health providor as it is “is such a new test’. I was really disappointed. You would think that a true advocate of women’s health ( as was painting herself as) would embrace something better. They just will not let go of this stupid test.
    On medical Observer they said that they will offer the self HPV test to women who haven’t had a pap in over six years. I wonder if that means we will get a letter.

    • Hi Mary
      Hope your study is going well. Another informed woman in medicine is incredibly exciting.
      Yes, I’ve heard a couple of people talking about this “new” test, but assumed they were just playing games, don’t want women to know this has been around for a long time. But then some so-called experts say some amazing things, again they might be playing games, but I’ve heard so many say if you have a normal pap and HPV test, you’re fine for 5 years…if you’re HPV- having a pap test is pointless. You’re right, they won’t give it up, the precious pap test.
      Ohhh, a letter, now that will be interesting! I suppose it depends whether they use population records or the register, the latter has never included my name, I’m in the never-screened no-mans-land zone. (and delighted to be there)

    • Mary
      Have you heard what they plan to do with the HPV+ women? I hope it’s the offer of a 5 yearly pap test and not straight to colposcopy/biopsy, that might have been the sweetener to get a few groups to agree to the change. Also, because we’ll be testing those 25 to 30, lots of young women will test positive, that worries me.
      It may be day procedure will still be full of young women having harmless and transient infections “treated”.

      • Interesting comment here about HPV primary testing in those under 30:
        “The new approval is for first-line use in women 25 years and older.
        Using this system for those 25 to 30 years of age will cause much confusion, an abundance of false positives leading to colposcopy and biopsy that are not necessary, and immense costs for the healthcare system,” Dr. Harper told Medscape Medical News”

        There are similar comments in lots of medical journal articles, so once again, we don’t follow the evidence; lots of our young women remain in serious trouble if they choose to follow our program. It seems once again our program is more about finding something acceptable to competing interests rather than putting the evidence and women first.
        http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/824277

    • Hi ADM
      Sadly, they haven’t axed the programs yet (Switzerland has a few programs, in different cantons) it’s only advice at the moment from an Independent Panel to the Swiss Medical Board, a non-govt. organization. So the Govt. has yet to decide the fate of the programs.
      Like many political decisions they tend to stay away from hard or controversial decisions, especially in women’s healthcare, they usually get more votes extending these programs, we’re doing that, to include those up to age 74.
      A Swiss-born friend said the advice has caused an uproar, but some cantons have low participation rates, they may be the first to go and I doubt they’ll start any new programs. (a couple were being considered)
      It will be interesting: who will the the first to axe mammography? I know one thing, it won’t be Australia!

      • I always find it interesting that such findings cause an uproar. Why are the medical system and women so unwilling to accept that these screenings can cause harm and that evidence based testing should be done. It’s about preserving their health. I guess lies have been passed off as truth for so long that so many women think their life was saved.
        The US and Canada won’t be abolishing mammograms anytime soon. In the US I believe women are still going every year starting at age 40. In Canada it’s age 50 and every three years.

  16. There is a an interesting article on Natural News: Former Merck doctor predicts that Gardasil will become “greatest medical scandal of all time.”

    Dr. Bernard Dalbergue did an interview with Principes de Sante (because it turns into a major problem to say anything against this vaccine in America). He said “The full extent of the Gardisil scandal needs to be assessed” & that “everyone knew when this vaccine was released on the American market that it would prove to be worthless!… In addition, decision-makers at all levels were aware of it.”

    Don’t know how to post links, but if you Google the guy’s name it comes up if you can’t find the Natural News article for some reason.

  17. Keep an eye out on medical enrolments rising in colposcopy training. As it is there are not enough trained. If they are going to change the diagnostic and treatment protocols, they have to prepare for the huge numbers of women referred with positive HPV tests. Either that or technology tries to solve the problem. Well the vaccine and HPV test (positive or negative) do not.

    If more info gets out and women know about it they might demand changes. The aim of the screening programmes is to get 80% participation. I know from reading government reports from where I live that pap screening actually has around 50-60% rate. Other screening such as Colon cancer is less than 20% despite having costly television commercials. People just do not know the truth such as how much incentive bonus one doctor can make yearly pushing these tests, a scandalous maximum of $13,0000. This is more than someone gets yearly on social assistance. What do these doctors actually earn net? $200,000 and up?

    I should try to get the most recent government report and make up some pamphlets. Kind of lazy though,

  18. Alex, I’d be doing a lot of research if I was being offered Gardasil, when the risk from cc is so very low, I wouldn’t be prepared to accept much risk at all with the vaccine. Also, I’d never trust the official discourse about Gardasil.

    • My daughter, along with all other girls at secondary schools here, has had the 3 Gardasil jabs. I was against it, but she chose to and I respect her wishes. Like all the other girls, they believe it is a vaccination against cancer, just like a vaccination against measles, and as such, they all thought it was a no brainer to have it. I was a bit annoyed at first, but when they get to 25 and find they are still expected to have smear tests, I can see many of them questioning the point of having had these 3 injections if it does nothing, and being angry that they’ve been duped. I can see many of them not bothering with the smear tests, if they have gone to the risks and trouble of having had the Gardasil jab. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

      My big question is, that if all these school girls have had the jab, aren’t they all now HPV+? They can’t all end up in colposcopy can they?

      • You raise some interesting questions, Ada.
        I haven’t spent a lot of time researching the pros and cons of Gardasil, BUT, I understand the Gardasil vaccine only protects against about 70% of the HPV strains that can lead to actual cervical cancer, that’s why they say smear tests are still “required”. (don’t you love the terminology, cancer screening can never be required, except it seems for women)
        The fact is almost all HPV infections are sorted out by our immune system within a year or 2 so it’s only the rare cases that develop cc. I know here in Australia they’re saying the vaccine has reduced the number of girls with genital herpes. (we’re vaccinating boys as well)

        Vaccinated or not, if women were offered a HPV self-test device at age 30, only about 5% of women would be offered a 5 yearly pap test. So the “need” for all women to have pap tests is because the medical profession refuses to follow the evidence and let go of population pap testing. There is no need for any woman to have a pap test unless she tests HPV+ and decides she wants the pap test, even in that case these women need to decline over-screening or being sent straight to colposcopy/biopsy. (a pap test every 5 years is enough and only until you clear the virus)
        So if the vaccine does what it’s supposed to do, very few of the HPV vaccinated girls would test HPV+ at age 30 and so…forget about pap testing. No benefit. Only about 5% of UNvaccinated women are HPV+ at age 30, so the numbers are small.
        Of course, that’s too easy and doesn’t suit a lot of people with a vested interest in population pap testing – more $$$ to be made doing pap tests on 80% rather than 5% plus all of the excess biopsies and over-treatment.

        I understand if you’re already infected with HPV and you have the vaccine, you increase the risk of pre-cancerous lesions by 44.6% so that’s why they target very young girls. Merck says the increase is about 11%…
        I think some girls agree to the vaccine to “avoid” a lifetime of pap tests, of course, most women can’t benefit from pap tests anyway, whether they’ve had the vaccine or not. I’ve heard young women on forums say, “well, I’ve had the vaccine so my risk is low, I’m not bothering with pap tests.”
        If this was really about saving as many lives as possible and also, protecting women from over-treatment, we’d be following the evidence and making more acceptable testing methods readily available, like the Delphi Screener.

        I just can’t believe the money that’s spent on this “war” with a cancer that carries a lifetime risk of just 0.65%, while heart disease continues to kill the most people and lung cancer remains the No. 1 cancer, making cervical cancer a blip on the cancer front.
        The garbage about screening making this cancer rare, is just that, garbage, it was always rare. Earlier incidence and mortality figures are inflated because they rolled all gyn cancers together, including uterine etc.

      • So the vaccines makes it show up that they have something or it gives it to them?

        Injecting something that makes the test go off, just in case it’s inaccuracy wasn’t enough on it’s own, sounds like something sneaky enough for them to do.

  20. Moo
    I think the immune system is important, but it’s still not well understood. I was reading about the connection between a strong immune system and good health. There are so many factors, you can do everything right, but still have your genetic make-up work against you.
    The Harvard Medical School website lists a few things that may improve/assist your immune system:
    “Every part of your body, including your immune system, functions better when protected from environmental assaults and bolstered by healthy-living strategies such as these:
    Don’t smoke.
    Eat a diet high in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains, and low in saturated fat.
    Exercise regularly.
    Maintain a healthy weight.
    Control your blood pressure.
    If you drink alcohol, drink only in moderation.
    Get adequate sleep.
    Take steps to avoid infection, such as washing your hands frequently and cooking meats thoroughly.
    Get regular medical screening tests for people in your age group and risk category.”

    I don’t agree with the last one, I think that’s a matter for the individual, I’d never “recommend” screening to any man or woman, except blood pressure screening.

    I’d add stress, I’ve always felt it can reduce our body’s ability to fight off opportunistic infections/diseases.
    My sister-in-law has an impaired immune system after treatment for Hodgkins Disease at age 32, she gets everything going around and we recently received the tragic news she has advanced pancreatic cancer. Her prognosis is not good. I have often wondered if you’ve had cancer whether you’re more likely to get cancer again in the future due to an impaired immune system.
    I also, know there is some research going on looking at HPV+ women: do they develop actual cervical cancer due to an impaired immune system? We know you need something more than just HPV to develop cc, some say smoking, but does that mean smoking reduces the effectiveness of your immune system?
    My husband believes the best answer with cancer will not be chemo or radiation, but the immune system, finding drugs and ways to fire up the immune system, help it identify the rogue cells and destroy them. The research continues…
    In the meanwhile, the old things still hold, in my view, and most of them are mentioned in the summary on the Harvard Medical School site. Relying on screening though is usually IMO, false reassurance, I think the other points are the things to take onboard.
    The most important thing is to enjoy life, I think women have been trained to live in fear, rather than just embrace life and their asymptomatic body. I think searching for “abnormal” anything all your life is not good for our health or the regular frights (false positives, excess biopsies) that cause anxiety, dread, distress etc.

    • I agree with you here that you can do everything right and still get cancer. I don’t tick any of the boxes for endometrial cancer at all, except for one, that I started my periods early at 10 years of age. This is the only risk factor I can match myself with.

      I am getting treatment at a large hospital and the surgeon is a gynaecological oncologist.

      My diagnosis has been all the more difficult for me to deal with, due to my utter hatred of the cervical screening programme. If it had never existed, I think I would have approached my doctor sooner with my erratic episodes of spotting and watery discharge.

      In the 1990’s I was on the receiving end of two excruciatingly painful smear tests I was pressured to endure during my first pregnancy, and then, when this caused bleeding the inadequate sample resulted in a repeat performance just 6 weeks after the birth when I was still extremely tender. I realised then that this was not healthcare but rape. Despite the NHS hopefully stopping this practise nowadays, the screening programme continues to normalise, brush aside and condone this behaviour towards women by it’s relentless propaganda, totally unaccepting and unapologetic for the harm and trauma it has caused so many women. I have feelings of deep anger, fury and frustration that after 17 years of fighting the system, my cancer means they will now take it all away anyway. I could deal with this much more easily, if I had not had that experience many years ago, and I could feel that the gynae specialists at the hospital are actually there to help me.

  21. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_health/a1952049-Smear-tests
    I think some of the women on this thread may like to post here, but I can’t leave a post, for some reason it won’t accept my email address possibly because it’s Australian, while the site is UK based. Perhaps, someone else could alert them to our presence and make them very happy.
    I hate to read about women being bullied, coerced and pressured into pap tests, the UK call and recall system really is draconian and has no place in healthcare.

    Ada,
    I understand what you’re saying, I’m so sorry you had those early bad experiences, I’m not surprised though the program views pregnancy as a great time to “capture” women. They know women may need gyn care at some point in their lives and that’s the time they can force a pap test. I read an article once that said unscreened women were often those who used condoms in their relationship, (so didn’t need the Pill or a script) opportunistic testing was the answer, most of these women would not be on registers.
    That’s why women are often asked about pap tests when they see a doctor for anything and GPs receive target payments, more if they screen hard-to-reach women, those who’ve never screened or not for 5 years.
    So the offer of a pap test for all women turned into this oppressive regime that’s distressed and harmed HUGE numbers of women.

    I can understand your feelings, I’d feel the same way. I’ve spent my life protecting my cervix, my breasts, my body, my peace of mind, my bodily autonomy etc. These programs and the treatment of women generally by the profession has resulted in a loss of trust and respect, once gone it’s hard to get back.
    If I ever need gyn care (and that can happen to any of us) I know a couple of specialists, both come highly recommended by friends. I think the best we can do is find professional/competent and respectful individuals within a dysfunctional system. My GP and I have a working relationship, so it’s possible, you just have to search for these people.
    You might have approached a doctor earlier if not for your hatred of the screening program, I think this is a major issue that’s conveniently overlooked, highlighted in the thread I’ve linked. We have women who avoid all medical care, delay seeing a doctor, who feel anxious, angry harassed and pursued by the screening zealots, women who self-treat because they fear the consult room and “that” pressure etc.
    I wonder how many women are worse off as a result of this program? The numbers would be staggering. Oh, yes, this program has been a huge success for some people, but that’s certainly not women.

    • Hi Elizabeth,
      I’ve recently looked at the mumsnet site and encountered the same problem (from within the UK). I used to belong to mumsnet then unsubscribed, so when I tried to join again it wouldn’t let me join with my email address. As I don’t have another email, I used the old one and clicked that I’d forgotten my password. They sent me a reset password and now this works, and I’m back in again. I left a couple of posts but noticed that someone had got in before me and mentioned forwomenseyesonly.com. I think you’ve used Eliz52 for mumsnet.

      • That’s funny Ada, I can’t keep track of my own posts! Thanks for going to that trouble.
        Hope we can add to our numbers, every informed woman makes a difference…they can make informed decisions and urge others to do the same thing. Spread the word…also, we’ve made some women very happy over the years, (and some very angry) many realizing for the FIRST time they can decline cancer screening, that cc is rare, false positives and over-treatment common, and more recently, that only about 5% of HPV+ women aged 30 to 60 can benefit from pap testing. Shocking that women have to look to a couple of sites to get the evidence that enables them to make an informed decision.
        When will the medical profession see this is not the way you treat adult women?

        Recently: a middle aged (post menopausal) woman who experiences severe pain during a pap test, bleeds for 2-3 days (and has soreness for up to a week) was relieved to hear she’s more likely to be beamed up by aliens than get cc. The Delphi Screener confirmed she was HPV- and she’s no longer sexually active, she now understands what that means and has had the confidence to tell her GP, “NO more pap tests for me”.
        It has added a happiness and lightness to her life, the traumatic and humiliating experience of pap tests every 2 years had taken away from her quality of life and sense of self-worth, that’s an inexcusable thing to do to someone. I know she’s far from unique, many women feel the same way.
        At no time did she ask for a pap test, but was simply told by her GP (like many women, including my younger sister), “all women must have regular pap tests, it’s just part of being a woman”. Well, that’s up to us, it’s never been part of my life and never will be…

  22. Ada it is really sad that you have cancer. So for sure you got a diagnosis? I hope that you will receive the care and support that you need. My prayers and thoughts will be with you.

    The article of interview with Dr. Harper has some interesting facts particularly the statistics. It seems the HPV vaccines are rather useless.

    Some marketing enterprise would be to have dating site that lists people HPV strains. That way two people could date and not get any new strains. Of course anyone with strains 16 or 18 would be banned. Of course this is ridiculous.

    If they wanted to make better vaccines or treatments they would. It seems obvious that the current vaccines were designed to capture a certain quick profitable market. I always thought it seemed useless to vaccinate a 9 yr old girl when that would only give immunity for say 5 years. It was just about making money and hoping that people were not seeing through the scheme.

    • The vaccine was invented here and most people seem to have accepted the official blurb, although I see we have a couple of forums started by parents who took the time to do their own research. Unfortunately, medicine is big business and IMO, we really can’t accept the word of the Govt or medical profession, the influence of and desire for huge profits is ever present.
      Moo, I read somewhere there is a dating site for people with genital herpes.

      • Yes there are dating clubs for people with herpes. But when people have herpes and suffer with it they do not want to transmit it to other people.

        The difference is that many people can get HPV, even strains 16 and 18 and clear up on their own and never get cancer. Only a few people with end with cancer apparently from “persistent infection with HPV” that doctors do not even bother to type the strain before they call it “persistent” because it could be sequential infections of different strains if a women gets a Pap test at intervals. The whole system is just wrong.

        If men were told to get their penis scraped, poked and propped at intervals and then get any abnormal parts burned or cut of or just the whole organ removed and never enjoy sex again. —Well there would be some other system.

  23. I think the CDC and Acog is the worst hear in America for shoving screenings at woman.

    • Oh and Australian women have lower rates of cervical cancer the other countries because the population Mixed races And they have more vitamin D due to getting more sun compared to UK or North America.

    • This is very interesting news. We haven’t heard an inkling that this is going to happen in the UK. Clearly, they don’t want British women to give their smears a miss and wait until this new HPV system comes out. Keeping them in the dark and ignorant, as usual, to keep the screening figures up.

      Yes, my diagnosis was a grade 2 endometrial cancer. I was stunned as I had had some spotting which came and went for some time, and the occasional discharge, which left me a bit sore, but it was only from time to time, so I dismissed this as hormonal rather than cancer as I assumed the symptoms would be constant if was cancer. I asked to see the biopsy report and surgeon told me it was done by their best people, and, yes, there was my name and date of birth on the top. I am bothered about the grade as most are grade 1 and slow growing, grade 3 is invasive, so my grade 2 is somewhere in between.
      Next week I have the MRI scan to correctly stage it, but I’m hoping it will be stage 1 as surgeon says it can be done laparoscopically if it is, and the recovery time is much shorter. I should hopefully be able to avoid needing any chemo if it is, and getting that bothers me a huge amount.

      I encountered my problems last year, and after spending many blissful years completely out of “healthcare”, I turned to the internet to get more info. After making a comment about how terrible the UK cervical screening programme is, Elizabeth found me and told me about this site. It has been a huge source of comfort to me to find so many other women have also had problems with this so called “health screening”.

      The American system is clearly very different to ours. In the UK, gynaecologists are surgeons who work in hospitals doing surgical operations. They certainly wouldn’t be doing pap tests and pelvics in asymptomatic women, who go for checks at their local health centre. These are done by nurses in this country, who, while they may be very pleasant, often have very little understanding of why paps are necessary. That way the truth never gets out, and UK women remain under-informed by someone who can never properly inform them. Of course, anyone with money can go private, and pay for a similar service as that in America if they want to.

      • “The American system is clearly very different to ours. In the UK, gynaecologists are surgeons who work in hospitals doing surgical operations.”

        Ada, 1 in 3 US women will have a hysterectomy by age 60, that’s high, more than twice the number performed in the UK, Australia, NZ etc. Dr Carolyn Westhoff, US gyn, partly blames the routine pelvic exam for this high number and for the loss of healthy ovaries, again, more than twice the number of oophorectomies are performed compared to countries that don’t do routine pelvic exams. I also, think it’s because American women often use a gynecologist as their regular doctor, a gyn surgeon – not a good idea.
        The evidence clearly shows that the excess exams, screening, testing, “treatments” etc. received in the States leads to poorer health outcomes, not better.
        More is not better, excess and non-evidence based exams and tests are not in our interests.

      • Very sorry to hear about your diagnosis. I literally have regular nightmares of the same thing happening to me, that I have been protecting myself from this vile system, and then when I get old or anything happens it comes and gets me. Just how women have to be perfect, perfectly self-regulating, self-sustaining, good neoliberal subjects, damned if they do, damned if they don’t, and at some point they will stumble anyway, we are all human. I am young and healthy, for now, but the thought of a menopause fills me with dread, niot the actual biological reality of it, I would look forward of being a wise old woman, but the thought of my period stopping, and then I might bleed a little bit with the full moon or something, and I would start panicking, and go to a doctor, and they might find some “suspect cells”, and welcome to the merry-go-round, or I might get dry during sex, and start bleeding, you know this thought crops up in my mind from time to time, and sometimes a trigger like that video of that bitch Nadia Kamil starts a chain reaction of anxiety, thinking about all the violence against women, all the disgusting patriachal practives, and the frustration about women stomping on each other in order to get further in sucking up to the patriarchy.

      • Well said Karen, I approached menopause as I did menstruation, a normal part of being a woman. Some women really suffer during menopause (and menstruation for that matter) and for quite a few years, these women may need medical assistance. Others breeze through, so you never know, but I think being positive is important and viewing these things as normal, not a health risk or requiring medical management.
        My symptoms are not as bad now, temperature control was the major issue for me, but I just dress lightly (in cotton) and in layers, so I could remove or add a layer easily. (as required)
        I think we’ve been trained to dread/fear things that are perfectly normal parts of life.
        Having said all of that, Ada has been unlucky and that can happen to any of us. So I certainly see your point.

      • Just replying to your post, Elizabeth, about menopausal symptoms, (but I can’t seem to locate it on the list!). Having a few problems during the menopause or menstruation may not be such a bad thing. I got through both without the slightest hiccup. Periods were easy and no problems. Menopause, I didn’t know I’d gone through it as I had no symptoms at all, but now I’ve hit the buffers with this endometrial cancer diagnosis in my early 50’s. I’m just guessing but it may be that my oestrogen levels are just too high and un-opposed. It’s kept me happy and my bones in good shape, but is now stuck in overdrive. Count your blessings if you have some problems, as it may be your body trying to adjust. It’s better than facing a hysterectomy…

      • Also, I don’t know about wisdom, but I’ve felt empowered in my 50s, I don’t care as much what other people think, I’m happier to speak up if others disagree with me etc.
        I certainly no longer fear being ambushed in the consult room, in fact, I’d welcome it!
        So age has it’s advantages. I also, went to my first rally at the ripe old age of 52. I have a feeling I’m going to be an old activist.

      • Ada,
        I hadn’t thought of that, but it makes sense.
        I know Japanese women breeze through menopause and some say it’s the soy in their diet, but I can’t tolerate soy.
        Also, I’ve heard if you eat soy as part of your diet that’s one thing and quite another if you use a supplement, if you overdo it that can also, cause problems.

        The feeling hot/sweating can be uncomfortable, but my symptoms are improving. The night sweats are better and the crazy temperature variation is easing, roasting one minute, freezing the next, taking your cardigan or jacket off and putting it back on dozens of times a day.
        A downlight can make me sweat profusely so I try to sit in a dark part of the cafe etc.

        Hot flushes have thankfully, not been a big issue for me. Initially, they were triggered by alcohol, so a glass of wine at a business lunch was out. My face, neck and chest would go BRIGHT red and the perspiration would be bad, I’d have to get into the bathroom so I could splash water on my face, it would last about 10 minutes.
        That didn’t last long though, maybe six months to a year, I do still occasionally get a redness on my neck or decolletage, but not as bad, it looks like too much sun and then fades after a few hours.
        I try to remind myself that all of this is my body’s way of adjusting to the changed climate. hormones settling etc.
        I’ve also, noticed changes in my skin, I use more hydrating products, I don’t need to wash my hair as often…fortunately, I’ve dodged some of the more distressing and debilitating symptoms like menstrual flooding, facial hair growth (a friend has to stay on top of what she calls her “menopause moustache and sideburns”)
        My periods have always been a non-issue (in the main) so I’ve been lucky there.
        Overall, I feel I’ve turned the corner and at 56 the worst is behind me. (fingers crossed)

    • Ever notice how they really push the breast, cervical & colon cancers? It’s like they’re homing-in on those things in particular, never mind other cancers that are more common. They do that sort of thing on commercials, too- everything’s about regularity, catheters, adult diapers, pelvic meshes (all stuff that runs along a similar line, however you want to phrase it- maybe orifice-involved is the best term?).

  26. I found a document that shows the numbers of colposcopies and LEEP procedures done in Ontario, Canada in 2012/2013. The document is a report on health care reform as reforming to better use resources and meet health care needs. The report pointed out that colpscopy clinics varied with the care across the province. In other words some patients were getting too much and others not enough care.

    http://www.capca.ca/wp-content/uploads/CCO-HSFR-Overview-Sept-2013-CAPCA.pptx

    However it was not suggested that HPV testing be funded in attempts to reduce pap screening costs or get women who needed treatments to colposcopy faster. A woman with cervical cancer costs the system $$$$ so the idea is that the screening saves lives and costs in the long run. I just do not like that some women were “lost to follow up”. I can understand why some women get one colposcopy and never go back.

    I would actually like to know the population of females ages 18-70 who were receiving these procedures and compare that to the rates of cancer diagnosis. I just have a difficult time finding the statistics.

  27. I have been hearing alot about pelvic mesh recals on tv. IT seems alot of gyn sergerys are being pushed. IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THEY TAKE dvantage. And theres a new add about premern vaginal cream. And it sees it can increase the risk of cancer. So they tell woman to have a regular pelvic exams. It just seems like they pray on woman during the change of lfe, pregnany and teens. And elderly people. Any excuse to do pelvic exams it seems.

    • Women take Premarin, which is estrogen made from mare’s urine, that’s right horse piss, because they have menopausal symptoms that are baffling to them. Menopause is a natural process but it is not treated as such by medical doctors, there are herbs that can help, diet changes or just exercise for some women. Doctors do not tell women about these.

      Just like taking the pill, no one tells women that it could cause infertility or cancer because they are just not wanting to get pregnant. No one tells women the real statistics because they just say this or that might slightly increase the risk of this cancer.

      Try going to any medical doctor and ask about what is happening in perimenopause and you get bullied for a Pap test, dismissed that they could have a normal pregnancy and told that taking some birth control pills or this hormonal cream will solve all the issues such as strange cycles, dark bloody discharge, heavier flow at times, more PMS. Just a total lack of truthful or helpful information.

      I would like an information website about perimenopause if anyone has a link?

      Many women have fibroids and these shrink after menopause but why do so many women get hysterectomy for fibroids? All doctors are trained that hysterectomy is recommended for all women over age 55.

      The Pap test for women over 40 is further scrutinized by the reporting of endometrial cells. This means a endometrial biopsy which is painful and maybe even a hysterectomy for no reason. Any cervical dysplasia regardless of whether it is a “persistent” HPV infection or a new infection is going to get toward cone excision or hysterectomy because older women apparently do not need their sex organs. Younger women would be offered different treatments.

      • I think for one they use the pill and hormonal creams to keep woman coming in for tests and exams every year. My grandmother and great grand both had hysterectomys for fibroids. They belived the doctor. Thats just sick about the over 55 geting hysterectomys. They donot cut mens prostates out bc of posible cancer after a certain age.

  28. Elizabeth, I know of woman who say they get meadicn for a cold from there gyno. I had a teacher that sugested I see a gyn for Add meadicn. Every time a woman goes to a gyn even a cold they will pull out the speculum and do a pelivc and pap on her. Makein a gyn you primary docotr seems insane to me. The thing is woman hear dont view gyns a sergins they are taught that its for well woman exams to be healthy like one whould see a dentist for teeth. e

    • That’s suprising! For ADD medicine like ritalin? I got put on that when I was younger & it was from a neurologist- not that it’s a good idea, of course (anything at all is made out to be the signs of a disorder & the medicine causes all kinds of problems- including giving guys tits).

      Probing as an attached rider to everything medical that a woman does is a subtle way of imposing things- it’s acting like “Oh, it’s this (whatever someone’s going for), not that (whatever they attach to it).

      On a side-note about dentistry: You have a lot of treatments that make things worse & surgeries for no reason just like with regular doctors, but also they’ve been real keen on fluoride for a while & fluoride is bad for your teeth, bones, brain & hormones. Sometimes one lie helps another, whether or not everyone is in on it.

  29. Yes Alex like ritlen. I was on it for a short time as a child thin stoped bc i didnt like the way it made me feel and didnt feel like I really needed it. I was in high school and my teacher asumed bc I was 18 that I had started seeing a gyn for pap smears exams that was back in 03 when they recomended girls get them at 18. She said it whould be convent for me to just ask a gyn for them instead of paying for another visit at another doctor. Well I whoulnt see one and I tried to tell her I didnt not feel i need the meads to help me concentrat and that I had a bad experance with them. She said oh all meadicn has side effects. I was thinking that a gyn has no bussnes precribing Add or any other phyc meads. They dont know enuf about the meadicn to be precribing to woman or be diagnosing add or other problems like that. It bothers me that woman whould be trated for a mental illness or other problems that has nothing to to with gynocology . In my area and surounding cities there is a gyn office on every corner. And i think they need all the bussnes they can get . Thats alot of mony doing paps on every single woman that walks in.

    • That IS nuts- it’s like getting someone that only speaks English to translate Chinese. One flip side of that, though: Getting birth control from a shrink. A woman on here (Tanya, I think) got them from hers instead of getting backed into all kinds of tests. Kind of makes sense- these things would cause psychological distress/detriment/trauma.

      As it is, they toss things that cause problems at women & now they start doing the same things in other fields. As it is, both professions tend to be more & more unreliable (whether there’s exceptions to that or not).

  30. Karen- I’ve heard a lot of women say that & I get that it is something that might work your nerves. I’ve noticed that people TEND to presume honesty & accuracy a bit reflexively when dealing with other people. Not as a step-by-step deduction of trustability, but kind of an off-the-bat sort of thing like when you ask someone what time it is & they look at their watch & tell you. You presume that they’re telling you what the watch say. It’s pretty weird for someone to randomly lie like that, so it’s not unreasonable to make that presumption, but someone might use that situation against you.

    I figure disvaluing what someone says would be a useful thing in situations like that. If another woman didn’t like you & she called you fat, would you believe her? No, right? She might very well be lying to you.

  31. The health and medical organisations and governments around the world have clearly got wrong priorities.

    Here is an interesting article We risk disaster if drugs giants don’t invest in research in The Guardian. It’s is a longish read, so the short story is that because for too long antibiotics have been prescribed by doctors and taken by patients unwisely, bacteria evolved and there are many strains now that became incurable. Basically, the mankind is going to return to 19th century with people dying of pneumonia, diarrhoea and urinary tract infections — all those minor diseases, of which no-one have been dying in the past 80 years. The fact that bacteria are developing resistance to the drugs has been known for at least 20 years, but nothing has been done.

    Unfortunately, the author of that article, while rising awareness, is barking at the wrong tree. He is proposing that the pharmaceutical giants must save the world. I, personally, do dislike companies like Pfizer for slaughtering the research and decapitating the development of new drugs, but the problem is that no private pharmaceutical company can dedicate itself to the research of new antibiotics. Because, to prevent the bacteria from developing resistance to the new to-be drugs, it is crucial to give the antibiotics to as few people as possible, only as the last resort. Which means that very little of the new drugs will be sold, and there will be no profit from sales, with a huge loss because the development process of any new drug from research til manufacturing is extremely costly. Private companies will be committing a crime if they don’t act for the best profits for their shareholders, which means that the new drugs research mush be funded by governments.

    And here we arrive to the point that makes my post relevant to this blog: government- funded research. Unless a country has a surplus budget and no debt, the funds must be reallocated from elsewhere. This “elsewhere” can be the cervical cancer screening programs. We all know that billions are wasted every year on the useless and harmful pap smears, incentive payments, posters, tv ads and scare campaigns. There are around 13000 cervical cancer deaths per year in the European Union, and this number is steadily, naturally declining, plus cancers are not contagious. There are 25000 antibiotic-resistance-related deaths per year in the EU, and this number is growing, and the bacteria are spreading. Where are the concerns, funding and priorities of our “caring” health authorities? We all know: between female legs!

    • There are substances natural or simple that have been around for thousands of years that are effective against bacteria, fungi, viruses and other microbes. Other times there are practices such as not eating particular foods, or cooking them a certain way or washing before meals or whatnot that prevent infection. Research might be done to confirm that these methods work but often the trials are flawed. Sometimes they work for certain people or require a longer time to work such as weeks rather than months. Hardly anyone is doing this research except in India or China and some other countries just because it does not make anyone money. A natural product or telling people to wash with a certain soap for 1 minute cannot be patented and no profits.

      Some particular methods by which some microorganisms are killed can never be overcome with a superbug. But because antiobiotics are made by microorganisms the genetic material can sometimes be transferred. It is a constant race.

      More often people who are immune compromised such as cancer patients will die of infections because their immune system is weakened, as well hospitals are the dirtiest places ever since they tend to cut back on cleaning staff to save money.

      Doctors have been misusing antibiotics for years. Partly this is due to access to healthcare and funding because a person is usually very sick before they want to take off work to go to a doctor, then a culture should be taken and it takes about 48 hours for a lab result unless there is a rapid test. So a patient does not want to come back in two or three days to get a prescription or hear “just get better on your own” or “get some overcounter remedy”. Some doctors will give a prescription and then tell the patient not to fill it until they get a call back about the lab results. Not many doctors do that. Plus also liability because if someone dies well.

      This is not really an anti medical site. But all this expose relates to the overtreatment and overscreening of women.

  32. You know, I’ve been thinking about how medical things have become more & more dictatorial as well as, basically, violent- it CAUSES health issues, not solves them. With women & girls, especially, this has a tendancy to get abusive along a more pervy line. Not that either one is innocent on it’s own, but a compounding of things does exactly that. It’s not unheard of for them to attach riders to admission to the school or to simply ambush them at school.

    I’m very concerned about this getting integrated into the already hostile climate of things in this country. Every damn thing is against the law (or something is simply made up, if no law has been broken). We’ve already been over the fact that the course of sorting things out can screw someone up for life, but the various security & hygiene measures that get integrated into a police response is a problem on it’s own (and something doesn’t HAVE to be useless to be a problem).

    The food seems designed to give you problems & the stuff that actually nourishes you is sometimes illegal. The environment gets detrimented from the farming practices or the crops, themselves. Trying to send your kid to school with a packed lunch even turns into a problem sometimes! I remember a couple of cases on that (one was the school banning someone from bringing lunch instead of buying it there, another one was the principal saying that having peanut butter & jelly was racist, there’s probably more).

    The school thinks that they call the shots when it comes to someone else’s kids (and uses the cops for back-up & protection). You never know when your kid’s going to get arrested for childhood misbehaviour or just activity of any kind. It really doesn’t need to be a reaction to anything, it can just be an initial act without any catalyst. Maybe they hear a rumor or something goes missing & your kid comes back with a horrible story.

    More companies are having a very “I’ll run my business any way I want, including all over you” mentality. They outright use the term “human resources.” This is obviously how they see the employees, otherwise they would have stuck with “personnel.” I remember a case where someone got fired for smoking cigarettes when NOT at work! They said that they had a “no smoking policy” on & off the clock.

    I’m also fairly sure anything that occurs would get presented as an altruistic act & any counteractive action will get portrayed as an act of oppression. I figure the argument might go something like: “They’re just trying to help people & they’re not slaves.” Or just “They’re only doing their job.” Or “Well, it’s not like that- they’re a doctor.” All bullshit arguments, but that hasn’t stopped them from being used in the past.

    This was a bit of a long rant, but taken as a whole- I’d say that a medical setting is probably going to be a very dangerous environment & anywhere a medical influence extends to will have problems. I know a lot of what I said sounds somewhat unrelated, but these situations I’ve mentioned involve medicine both by blanketing medical situations & by incorporating medical activities into them.

  33. Alex I have herd of doctors telling woman that it is a law for woman over 21 to have pap smears and pregnant woman. weather the doctor is lieing or making up there own laws idk. and sadly some woman whould belive these doctors. The way the Acog demands woman to have screening no wonder woman belive this.

    • USA: there is no law that requires women to have cervicla screening (Pap tests). The law is that in some states that insurance must cover Pap tests. http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cervicalcancer/moreinformation/cervicalcancerpreventionandearlydetection/cervical-cancer-prevention-and-early-detection-prevention-screening-financial-issues

      In Canada, there is no law that women must have Pap tests. It is entirely their choice. Even prisoners can not be forced to have Pap tests.

      UK might harrass but women do not have to test.

      Other countries, well. Poland required women to get exams or they could not be employed. I think that was changed. China might require women to have exams since they control fertility with their one child law.

      • In poland they tried to make a smear test mandatory for employment, as part of a general heath check, but it did not happen of course.

      • I read about a prgnant woman who refused all internal exams and pap smears also std screening and strep. Her docotr called CPS on her. CPS came to her door and told her she had to have the screeing. She printed out a sheet on inacurcys and pointed out that it was he body and the baby was not born yet. They left her alone after that. But that is a doctor trying to inforce screeing on a pregnant woman and sadly some woman do think all prenatal exams and screening are the law.

    • That’s appalling. It’s also so simple I forgot to think about it- I guess that’s something that makes it appealing as a tactic.

      I never got why people give a shit, though. Let’s say it was a law. Who cares? Wouldn’t it be a good thing to “violate” the law in that situation? Whatever they’d throw at you in retaliation for that is something they’d probably throw at you for no reason anyway, considering you didn’t deserve in the first place & they’re already throwing the situations you countered at you by backing them up.

      • People think that all children must be vaccinated for school. Where I live this is not totally true. Some exemptions exist but docotrs will never tell parents because they get incentive payments to immunize. There is a form that can be signed for the school board by one parent for their reason not to immunize and the parent must keep the child out of school if there is an epidemic. For an epidemic to happen it would mean that a large number of children in the school were sick with whatever they were supposed to be immunized against.

        People might feel there is an erosion of privacy and freedom in regards to medical involvement in our lives. However there is still a democratic process and people can get what they want (privacy, freedom to choose) but they must be prepared to do some work on finding out what is truth and myth.

        One huge complaint is women saying they cannot find a health care provider that will give them hormonal birth control without a pelvic exam. It might not be medically necessary but it is all about the doctor liability and insurance. Doctors can refuse to treat some patients in certain circumstances because that is their right. So either find another doctor or just find another method to deal with the hormonal problems. Most people are too lazy to go on the internet or to a library and find out what remedies they can use for themselves. Rather inconvenient when you or some family member is sick. More and more people are turning to alternative health care and some medical doctors might consider this in their services.

  34. I wonder if doctors should have a right to refuse to treat someone? They use it as a coercive device & then talk about how it’s an attack of their freedom when they don’t get their way with the patient.

    Isn’t it suprising that there’s such a confrontational mindset with doctors & medicine? It’s like navigating enemy territory!

    • The proposed schemes are just stupid. Use LBC liquid based cytology with computer based technology and give HPV test to women at age 69? Outdated. They will do what they feel is cheapest not what is good for women and the brain washing will continue. Raping and mutilating women is cost effective just like the gas ovens.

    • Thanks for linking this Elizabeth. In some areas the new program (if approved) is encouraging, but in others it’s not so good. The admissions that “5 yearly HPV test more effective than 2 yearly pap tests . . . HPV prevalent in young women and regresses . . . Cervical cancer is very rare < 25 yo . . . Screening has not decreased mortality < 25 yo" are all gratifying to see. However, the fact that self-screening is only going to be offered to "under-screened and never screened" is truly annoying! Although they admit that self-screening for HPV is more accurate than pap testing. Also the fact that they are going to screen 25 year old women who have high rates of HPV infection that in most cases clears on its own is discouraging. Plus they are going to screen women until they are 74 years old?! But overall it seems to be a step in the right direction — if it's approved that is.

      • Yes, frankly I’m surprised, I thought they’d stay with pap testing and just move to 3 yearly from age 25. We’ll still worry and harm lots of women, but it won’t be as bad as our current program. Young women will suffer the most, if they test HPV+ and get an abnormal pap test (common in young women, false positives) well they’ll have a colposcopy and biopsy and some will be over-treated. The very women who may want to have children one day will end up with cervical damage that’s entirely preventable with an evidence based program, i.e. you leave them alone until they’re 30.
        I think there were several groups who had to be happy before they’d back the new program, (or they’d cause trouble) so including young women means excess procedures, and over-screening with the HPV test (every 5 years until an absurd 74) keeps the cash rolling in for the labs etc…and they won’t tell women that they can forget further testing if HPV- and monogamous or no longer sexually active.
        So it still drags most women into the program. Self-testing will only be available through a GP who also, offers cervical screening, and only after the patient has refused the invasive HPV test for 6 years, this way they maintain control over women and have quite a long time to pressure the woman into the invasive test. There has always been this strong desire to control women here, treat us like a herd and so self-testing and informed consent has always been resisted…of course, they’d say neither is, “in our best interests”. Yeah, sure, I’ll make my own decisions thank you.

        I think word will spread that self-testing is possible, but they might start a scare campaign suggesting self-testing is not as reliable. You know the argument…women are just so hopeless…you can’t leave them to manage their own health and affairs.
        The AMA leadership (some of them anyway) is VERY paternalistic, sexist, misogynistic; (take your pick) I can’t see attitudes changing until this is addressed. At the moment many don’t have an issue with it because we’ve always been told what to do, but I think more women will start to question the issuing of disrespectful orders, lack of self-testing and the profession’s desperate need for control as time goes by. I see more women questioning now, I think this is part of the reason our program is finally being changed, screening numbers were dropping off and they knew the cat was out of the bag. The herd was starting to stray…time to re-group.

      • You are likely spot on Elizabeth, I agree many groups had to be happy before backing the new program. The desire to control women, to keep them dependent and ignorant of the facts, and to keep them ‘needing’ to undergo invasive exams. The very fact that accurate, relevant information (such as stats for cervical cancer prevalence in young women) are near impossible to find (in some cases because there have been no studies done/no system for accountability or transparency) should be a clue that there is something amiss. They are already claiming that self-testing is not as accurate as clinician collected samples. Still no acknowledgement that the exams are traumatic and inhumane for many women, and puts them at risk in many ways (sexual misconduct, infection, irreparable psychological harm, broken hymen, nerve damage, etc). Also, the urine test for HPV is being kept hidden away: http://www.trovagene.com/Press-Room/Latest-News/Trovagene-Launches-Urine-Based-HPV-Test.aspx

    • Although they finally made some movements towards changes in the decades-long pap-crap, they still not going to let women to heal on their own. Colposcopy clinics can’t be deprived of their lucrative business, can they?

      According to the new proposed guidelines, they are going to send women to colposcopy (which very often includes a biopsy torture) just because the HPV infection hasn’t cleared after 12 months, even if cryptological test shoved no abnormalities. Even though on the same page, cancerscreening.gov.au says that HPV can take upto 2 years to clear, and that presence of HPV doesn’t mean abnormalities will ever develop. They are just making sure the new program will compensate for longer screening intervals by referring to colposcopy even those who previously would have a normal pap smear result. In this scenario, the new program is going to be worse than pap-crap!

      Profits and vested interests first, as usual. All wrapped up as “improvements”. Women will have to bear the pain, but who cares.

      • There has never been any acceptance to HPV lesions healing on their own. They just ignore those papers. They only accept the myth that “all cease of CIN 2 and 3 must treated” and only treatment by their barbaric practices of cut and burn. Besides if a women is older than 40 they can always push toward an unnecessary hysterectomy because that generates more income for them.

  36. A women not seeking prenatal care is automatically flagged as being in an abusive situation such as partner violence, child abuse or substance abuse. It might be that she is avoiding Pap tests and other intrusive exams such as ultrasounds, genetic testing which might be wise or she could be seeking alternative care or homebirth. Sometimes the authorities try to interfere with homebirths especially when there is no official midwife,

  38. “Ultimately, Welch says the medical system has failed to distinguish between two types of prevention: early diagnosis and health promotion. “Health promotion is what your grandmother would have told you: Get plenty of sleep, eat your fruits and vegetables, go play outside, don’t start smoking. It’s not high-tech. It’s positive. Be healthy.”

    Conversely, early detection can create a sense of foreboding. He recalled a thyroid cancer awareness campaign with the tag line “Confidence Kills.”

    So, “If you feel good, you’re about to die,” Welch deadpanned, to laughter. But more seriously, he continued: “The basic idea of screening is look hard for things to be wrong. But health is not just the absence of any abnormality. It is also a state of mind, and we have to be very careful not to disturb that.” ♦

    Such a smart man, couldn’t agree more. I’ve always believed the screening zealots play with our minds, making us afraid not to hand over our healthy bodies and balanced minds.
    You cannot dismiss the mental damage that’s been done to women, from being bullied and harassed about screening, being coerced into screening, (IMO, an assault) made to feel scared of our own bodies, the trauma and fear of a false positive and being over-treated, having an excess biopsy etc.
    I read an account by a young woman who had an excess cone biopsy, she said they removed part of her soul the procedure was so invasive and traumatic. It still haunts her 4 years later.
    Yet we’ve done nothing to reduce the risk of these excess procedures, here we’ve gone out of our way to maximize that risk. This young woman’s damaging experience was completely avoidable, you don’t test those under 30! (and no one without their informed consent)

    I can never forgive them the damage they’ve caused to womanhood on every level, mentally, physically and emotionally. (and the abuse of our bodily autonomy and legal rights)
    http://www.inlander.com/spokane/looking-for-trouble/Content?oid=2285734

  39. I found the exact same false health promotion activities in the diabetes programme in Ontario. There is screening for diabetes and then people are sent to patient education. This was a monthly meeting that was very inconvenient since patients are already taking off too much time from work for blood tests every three months and other appointments. The diabetes education consult was this: nurse comes in and weighs, measures waist and discusses any blood results which was duplicated at medicla visit. Then dietician argues with patient about meal timing, gives out a stupid food pyramid sheet. Pulls out her plastic food to play with. Does not understand portions of home cooking or what ethnic food is even when we were asked a questionnaire about it. Does. It give recipes or me us as we requested healthy snacks. If we miss any appointment for any reason, the wait is three months for another slot. Really? We did not find the programme helpful for our family member at all. These people are paid for what? Some automated useless record keeping. Even a book or interactive website would be more useful. It bewilders me that a student has to study for four years at university and write a qualifiying exam to be a dietician. Their information seems outdated anyway.

    Screening programmes are run like “do you smoke, take birth control pills?” Questionnaire and the your risk of ………, you should take a screening test. Everything is geared towards getting the numbers into the screenings tests and not any individualized care.

    Even just visiting a family doctor has become a piecemeal factory. Allowed only one issue per visit and how is anyone to know that any two symptoms are related to one illness or medical condition?

  40. http://sulia.com/channel/all-living/f/2ee3395a-6329-4c03-8820-cac27d4cf688/ This post has been making its rounds on social media and I thought I’d share because like many things, it’s supposedly something to encouraging women, but it’s actually very condescending. Every time I’ve seen it, it’s irked me more and more. There are a few good things on the list, but really, it’s very patronizing overall. When will the madness of telling other women what decisions to make stop? Even if someone chooses to live a completely unhealthy lifestyle, it’s their CHOICE.

    • Couldn’t get the list to show up. I’m guessing it directs women to get various tests performed on them? That kind of irked me in school. Couldn’t really place it at the time, but it was the idea that they didn’t add in “If that’s something you’re okay with.” Of course, they never mentioned risks, inaccuracies, or alternatives either or the rarity of ailment to be worried about in the first place.

      As for the situation, overall- I figure it’s a lot like the Borg Collective on Star Trek. I never really got into the show, but I saw that First Contact movie & it really has a lot of parallels in personality traits. The Borg are this arrogant, dictatorial people with a demonic style of behavior- meaning that they hi-jack people. That substituting/supplanting style is VERY similar to certain kinds of people & since there’s no way to say anything so someone else can’t lie or twist your words, they usually play the victim when counteracted. In the Borg’s case, it seemed like they excited that arrogance by acting like their way is best & that makes it high quality to impose it on people. “They only want what’s best for others.”

      Sound familiar?

      • http://www.stylecaster.com/healthy-habits/ Alex – This link should work. ADM’s comment was spot on. On this list, not only does it talk about health, but it talks about fighting wrinkles and seeing a dermatologist to get retinol prescribed because it works better than over the counter wrinkle creams. I’m so aggravated by that mentality. I hope I never decide to use anti-wrinkle anything. I know aging gracefully is a thing of the past, but I’d like to respect that tradition.

        The Borg collective comment made me LOL, but I think you’re very right. That’s the way a lot of these things go.

      • I don’t see aging as a health problem, just a “movement.” It seems to me that they view all activity as wrong & the only thing that’s right is a sterile environment. If you hear them talk, a lot of times they make references to object-involved professions (roofers, electricians, plumbers, etc…) and I guess they see the people they’re dealing with in the same light as an object with zero input.

        As far as looks go, I’d say that size & wrinkles are important points but not something to treat as an ailment. Go natural with that. Sun, food & water with nothing screwy in it, and whatever natural soap/shampoo/deodorant you care to use. It’s interesting that they harp on obesity, but not on medicine causing the same effects.

      • Alex – I feel like if you are being told to go see a doctor for something, then it is considered a problem. Perhaps not a problem to your health, but a problem nonetheless. The issue with that ideology is that aging is not the problem, rather the way this culture views it is problematic. If you look at other cultures, aging is glorified and someone of age is widely respected and revered. I agree completely with your statement about all activity being wrong, though. It’s true. I think we have discussed the topic of people being viewed as machines before, regardless, it is a very serious problem and it seems to only latch on deeper to society and infiltrate more areas of life.

        I agree that natural is the best way to go as often as possible. It is interesting that they harp on obesity and the like but not medicinally brought on illnesses, isn’t it? Most medications these days can cause cancer, heart attack, stroke, and/or other severe problems. I’ve been reading some Rosemary Gladstar lately and she said something very profound which changed the way I view medicine all together. She said that side effects are not actual side effects, but the actual effects of the medication itself because of how different chemicals interact with our bodies. Pretty scary stuff, but very true. I just saw a lawsuit ad on TV this morning for an ADD or ADHD prescription they were giving to younger children. Apparently, it caused boys to develop female hormonal balances and breasts during puberty…WHAT? Of course, I’m sure they’ll say it was a freak accident and that medications are not harmful and you should take them as your doctor prescribes them. After all, it’s for your own good, right? Especially for “illnesses” like ADD/ADHD, which most of the time, amount to little more than children having high energy levels and needing to get out more so they can burn the energy. I will admit, I believe there is certainly a time and place for medication. If someone is in an emergency situation like a car accident, or if someone is going in for a necessary surgical procedure, or if it’s something so severe that there are no natural alternatives known or available to cure the problem. Outside of that, though, I’m very cautious about the way medication is used, especially with all of the “side-effects” they cause. This ended up being a bit of a rant, I apologize LOL.

      • Ro: You’re apologizing to ME about a rant? I go on rants like other people go on short walks! Well, probably more like short drives than walks. Either way, it’s no bother for me.

        I think I remember that from one of her books, but I can’t remember which one. I’ve notice a very “antagonistic to life” theme in America. It’s very big on mangling life, whether that’s the organisms, their lives as a situation, or simply nature as a whole. Actually, if you look up “Rough & Tumble” as a martial art, you’ll find that that is exactly what the theme is. This is one of the only American martial arts. I know that there exists people that genuinely are not like this, but there’s a pattern that is very prevalent & usually very subtle. Sometimes it starts as subtle, but then it jumps to a strong-arm tactic (like when the school uses cops to make their little bullshit goals happen).

      • Alex – I agree. I’ve noticed that lately. I’ve had the wonderful opportunity to talk with people in other countries, and I found out that here in the US, there’s the philosophy of “I’m right and you’re wrong. I’m going to force you to agree with me so you can be right, too.” In other countries, it’s a much more open philosophy. France, for example, has the philosophy of “You believe ____ or think _____ or don’t want to _____? Okay, cool. We have different views but I respect yours and I hope you can respect mine.” It’s totally different. It’s really sad too, when you think about it. One person told me that they think the whole motive behind essentially forcing someone to agree with you is because they have doubts about what they’re saying or they know it’s wrong, so they want to feel validated. Perhaps that’s part of it too.

      • Yeah, like they’re trying to generate a support group for themselves. This is synthezizing a sign of a situation in order to try & generate that situation. Ever notice how some people make a rule that nobody else should argue with them? Like not “talking back”? As if it’s going to make them infallible because they don’t hear any arguments- which would be a sign that they’re wrong about something. This would be like me ripping the horn out of everyone else’s car in order to never get into a crash!

        Sometimes people try to do that after the fact, too (like pulling a trigger in an effort to make the gun have been loaded hours previously). Same idea, just adding a fictional “time warp” into the situation. Notice how these things DON’T make sense & might have someone trying endlessly to make sense of it? That’s why I figure it’s not actually any kind of accident or miscognition- it would work as camoflauge to make someone look crazy at the very least (so there’s no malice & they’re not an enemy deliberately working against someone- they just made a mistake & maybe someone can succeed in educating them). Also, it plays on someone wanting that sense of solace- they want there not to be an enemy to worry about & might just find that sense of relief addicitive on top of it.

        I learned a new word that works well for all this: “pernicious.” It means very harmful or destructive, usually in a way that is hard to detect. It also seems to have meant “wicked” at one point. I guess that was what the picture of “wicked” was: very harmful & usually very sneaky.

    • In addition to having our bodies poked and prodded every year for no reason we’re also supposed to look pretty and not get wrinkles or get fat. This isn’t about our health it’s about controlling us. As Naomi Wolf states, “A culture fixated on female thinness is not an obsession about female beauty, but an obsession about female obedience. Dieting is the most potent political sedative in women’s history; a quietly mad population is a tractable one.” In my opinion you can add in fear about female cancers to that as another means of keeping women obedient.

      • ADM – I couldn’t agree more! I remember hearing that quote before. It’s very true. If it was about health, choice would be involved, there would be alternatives available such as naturopathy and herbal doctors, and overall, there would be the least amount of harm done for the greatest benefit of the person in question. That is certainly not the case. Also, I hate that wrinkles are now considered part of health. “Go see a dermatologist”. More like no thanks I’ll save my money and treat myself to a new outfit LOL. Lastly, weight fluctuation is normal. We all go through times where we’re “underweight” or “overweight”. I hate the words fat and skinny. Both are offensive and should never be used to describe a person. Everyone is different.

  42. I’m hopeful over time more women will feel comfortable living away from the herd, and that warped collective thinking and behaviour. The system IMO, has always relied on controlling the herd, the individual female is a problem, much harder to control and that’s why we get the propaganda about non-complaint women, being immature, reckless, irresponsible etc
    Basically refusing to be part of the herd.

    I saw an ad over the weekend for pap testing, aimed at young women and presented by Amber Petty. It always amazes me that women who’d consider themselves intelligent and independent have no problem “telling” women to screen (like don’t drive if you’re under the influence) and the kicker, “make sure your friends screen too”…encouraging women to turn on each other, bully, pressure etc and reinforcing that screening is not a choice, but a duty, an obligation, a MUST.
    It makes me sick to my stomach, especially when the advice amounts to BAD medical advice.

    Needless to say Amber Petty can keep her advice to herself as far as I’m concerned.
    Of course, these women are being used by Papscreen as well, they trust the official discourse, but it’s the moral high ground that’s claimed and the patronizing lectures that are unique to women’s cancer screening.
    The very people who’d be outraged if the system “told” women to do this or that, yet they are doing exactly the same thing by removing choice and informed consent from women’s cancer screening. These women become part of the group oppressing and harming women and calling it healthcare.

  43. The propaganda is all about conforming and not informing.

    Due to some bad experiences with male doctors, I stopped screening years ago. There was ignorance on my part about cancer screening as well. Then a new male doctor keep pressuring for Pap test and the mistake he made was NOT to refer me to a female doctor. At a certain point if would have got a Pap test if that option was available. Then because of his greed and harassment, I went online for information. I found this website and others and then I decided no cancer screenings for me.

    Now I am more aware of the absolute trash the medical system is pushing people towards. Now I feel as if I cannot trust doctors. I feel that I will not get good healthcare because I refuse and this doctor somehow has put information about me in the government medical records that will affect my lifelong healthcare. So now I am distrusting of technology and databases. Making a complaint puts your name in a database somewhere and makes a problem.

    People are now having serious lifelong problems because of police databases and police background checks. They are being denied education and work opportunities for some record of police contact, not even arrests or charges. For example if someone goes to the doctor because they are depressed they get asked if they might hurt themselves or someone else. Then the police can be contacted. Then goodbye to future employment, volunteering and any travel plans outside the border. I fear. Technology is so misused that we are now living in some type of oppression.

    • Moo, I think most women are ignorant when it comes to screening, mainly because we trust the official discourse and don’t bother to check their “facts”. It takes a bit of time to get to the evidence anyway, and many women simply don’t have the time.
      Some women have said to me, “there is no way they’d be able to lie to us for decades, the truth would have come out if what you’re saying is correct” (I know, it amazes me too) or, “why would they want to do something that risks our health?”. (there are many reasons, but the main one is the perverse influence of vested interests)

      I know the screening story has become the evidence, after decades of propaganda even many doctors accept it as based on the evidence. It’s the greatest snow job of all time. It goes to show the power of government funded authorities and the medical profession and their power to manipulate, control and harm. (and to break the law (informed consent) and ignore proper ethical standards and get away with it)

      I’ve found it’s often when women are fed up or have suffered at the hands of the program and medical profession that some are motivated to do some research. Some just refuse to screen or avoid doctors and live with awful fear, every twinge is cervical cancer. No one does anything to ease their pain, this anguish is enough to drive many back into screening. (and they know that…likewise denying women the opportunity to self-test means many will eventually accept the invasive test due to fear and anxiety) Women here will only be offered self-screening after 6 years of refusing the invasive test, this is to test the woman’s resolve, many will give in and accept the invasive test.

      An informed woman would not worry and if she wanted to test might even order the Delphi Screener online. Interesting though that many GPs are confused by HPV and pap testing and fail to understand that HPV- women can’t benefit from pap testing and will never benefit unless they’re infected or re-infected with a high grade strain of HPV.
      We hear it’s “safe” for HPV- women to go 5 years between tests, when almost all could forget about further testing. It’s the insistence on treating us as a herd that’s the problem, otherwise they could allow women to assess their own risk profile, but that would be treating women like individuals and adults and that would never do.

      Just curious Moo, how many pap tests did you have before you were motivated to hit the books/internet? Isn’t it freeing to have the evidence? The scare campaigns roll off our backs like water off a ducks back. Many women experience enormous relief and peace of mind when they get to the evidence, (after the anger subsides, if it ever does) it tells me many women simple endure this test out of fear, pressure, confusion, feel they must etc.

      • I am also finding it incredible, the number of women who still totally believe in the 100% accuracy of the pap test, and get worried if they are a few weeks late in responding to their “summons” for the next one, but I think this misinformation is the deliberate work of the screening programme itself. Because the pap test is only about 70% accurate (at best), one done on it’s own is only of limited accuracy and of little use, but repeat tests over a period of years increase this accuracy, and will give a better picture of whether the woman is at risk or not. Screening programmes fail to inform the public about this. It is this ongoing series of repeat smears done over a period of time that gives them the more accurate overall result they are looking for. Unfortunately so few women understand this aspect, and most are under the false impression that the test is done every 2-3 years, because cervical cancer is so prevalent that it will develop every 2-3 years in every woman’s body, whether she is running the risk of it or not. It is the repetitive, controlling nature of the test, which causes women to feel that the disease is latent in everyone, and is likely to develop if a bi-yearly test is not carried out to ensure the cancer has not made an appearance. The screening programmes have deliberately withheld from women that this cancer develops from a sexually transmitted disease, for fear of stigmatizing those who test positive, with the result that they have conned millions into believing that adherence to the screening programmes is essential for life. The cervical screening programme has deceived, duped and threatened millions into believing that a rare cancer, which has a death rate of 0.65% is likely to kill them, when heart disease, and so many other more common diseases are forgotten about.

        When we look back at the medicine of 50 years ago, we cannot believe the risks people took with their health, and the dangerous remedies that misguided individuals zealously undertook in the belief they were safe cures. 50 years from now, our descendants will be thinking exactly the same thing of us. How could we be so accepting of the medicine we have today? How could we not have questioned it? Have those women, who cannot believe that the cervical sceening programmes of today are such big lies, thought about the dangerous and unnecessary treatment committed on people 50 years ago, and never asked themselves if our grandchildren will be thinking the same about us?

    • I believe the term is “techno-fascism.” There’s a lot of “stick-swinging” that uses technology & there’s plenty of avenues to at least gather information that’s useful for whatever actions someone might come up with. Ever hear of an OODA loop? It stands for Observe Orient Decide Act & all kinds of surveillance would provide the groundwork for whatever actions someone decides to do. Interesting how somoene worries about it with a stalker, but not with people that pose a threat for a paycheck. I guess they could always volunteer, though.

  44. I came across this new device. http://truscreen.com/
    It is an optical based system that replace pap sampling tests such as slide smears and liquid based samples. It would still involve a speculum exam.

    Many pros and cons, It claims better accuracy than pap. Only that results are in real time and treatment could be “Immediate”. The probes are disposible so less chance of contamination and no scraping the cervix. I doubt that the expense would justify most family doctors using it, it might be misued by some gynocologists in the treating everything. No time to heal before waiting months for a colposcopy. It does not go up the cervical canal like that damaging little brush either.

    Sorry this device is not going to change the experience of any woman much. Might make it worse,

  45. Moo do you mind me asking what you told this doctor once you choise not to screen? And what was his reaction?

  46. Click to access smears.pdf

    Another article from Dr McCartney, amazing this doctor never stops fighting, I don’t know where she finds the energy and she has 3 young children to raise as well, thankfully, we have doctors like her prepared to make the effort, not many, but some.
    Interesting the point she makes is very common, with our new program (well, it still has to be approved by the Govt) I’ve read a few times that women of any age with symptoms can have a pap test. It makes her point perfectly, many in medicine don’t understand the pap test is a screening test and not a diagnostic test, if you’re symptomatic, you need diagnostic testing and possibly, referral, not screening.

    • I think Margaret’s article may be in response to some cases in the British media at the moment about very young women dying of cervical cancer. For example, the case of Sophie Jones recently has led to the usual misinformed public campaign to lower the screening age and let young girls have smear tests. The sister of Sophie Jones is quoted by one newspaper as saying that if Sophie had been granted a smear test 2 months before she died, it would have saved her. Such is the misinformation about the test perpetrated by the vested interests. Well done, for Margaret that she says they are complicit in this misinformation.

      I also read a while back, (but can’t locate where) that the British cervical screening programme pays out £250,000 to anyone who develops cervical cancer after having a negative smear. I just wondered if this is fuelling the demand for smear tests by very young women, who are already experiencing illness. It’s always worth a try: if you are underage and if you think you might have cervical cancer, insist on a smear test and if it comes up negative, you and your family can claim the money automatically.

      • The annoying thing is, if they’d been honest with women from the start, vested interests would not have so much influence. As it stands they can easily engage in scaremongering because the system has misled women from the start.

        I’m sure that’s why excess has been built into our new program (proposed program at this stage) they knew they had to keep vested interests happy or they’d hit the media, “we’re concerned young women will die if we leave testing until age 30”.

        Testing young women means big dollars, false positives are so common. So we’ll do HPV testing from age 25 condemning many to an immediate colposcopy and usually a biopsy as well. The evidence does not support HPV or pap testing until age 30. We’re also, doing HPV testing every 5 years, too often, and until an absurd age 74!
        Most countries have this problem, it’s seems to be only the Dutch and Finns who’ve managed to keep programs focused on women and the evidence. Informed consent or a lack thereof seems to be a universal problem though.

      • I’ll bet Sophie Jones had an adenocarcinoma, these super rare cases usually are…and the pap test usually misses this even rarer form of cc. So the pap test is more likely to have come back “Normal” and that’s not a good result, it can lead to delay in the referral of the patient, a diagnosis and worsen the prognosis. The fact some doctors view the pap test as a diagnostic test could cost lives.
        The pap test has been held up as the Holy Grail, so it’s difficult when the profession wants to give women some real information, the only downside mentioned in the brochures for decades was false negatives and even that was only a line or so. It’s inclusion was to scare women into regular testing, “we’ll pick it up next time, you’re fine as long as you have regular testing”. It was all about manipulating women to get them into the program and keep them testing.
        False positives? Never mentioned or rarely…I can’t recall reading about false positives until fairly recently, (anywhere women would see it) I doubt they’d be included in our brochures today.
        Of course, the greatest threat with this test, the one most likely by miles is over-detection/false positives, excess biopsy and over-treatment.
        A bit like their decision not to tell women about over-diagnosis in breast screening, that only came out recently. Who do these people think they are?
        If any other group practiced this sort of deception there would be hell to pay…but the medical profession continues to get away with mass assault, surely that has to be the result when you deliberately mislead women and ignore both informed consent and consent. Most women are not consenting because they accept the official discourse, which is biased and incomplete. How can you give consent to a test when you get no information on the greatest risk? When the program is framed to maximize risk?

  47. Getting somewhat personal here….

    My very first pelvic exam was a shock and disaster. I had no IDEA what would happen. I was very shocked lying there in my undies when a MALE doctor came in. I thought that it would automatically be a female. I was 20 yrs old and at a college health clinic. I wanted birth control pills. The guy yelled at me that I needed to take off my underwear. I was told shocked at the exam. I had even asked at reception before and they gave me a useless pamphlet that said “the natural sweat of my vagina would be tested”. It turns out I had a common bacterial infection but they MAILED a letter asking me to come back into the clinic about 4 weeks later, no reason. Of course my mother opened it. No privacy and wanted to know why I was using the college clinic rather than the family doctor. This same arrogant doctor told me that I had to take this fluorescent yellow cream because my Pap test said I had pre-pre cancerous cells. I cried and cried. I came back after two days and asked for a female doctor. She told me that I just had a common bacterial infection and the doctor should not have even done the Pap test at that time. She gave a different prescription which I could barely afford (a simple peroxide or vinegar douch would have worked) but I had to come back in three months for another pap and to get more birth control pills. She also told me that there was no such thing as pre-precancerous cells. Actually my counsellor made a formal complaint to the clinic about how I was treated. After that every year was a mandatory pap to get birth control pills and no one ever said it was optional besides everyone was sure we would drop dead of cancer if we did not get a Pap test every year. I was sick of the lectures about absentience, serial monogamy and how we should use condoms blah blah blah.

    A few years later I stopped the pill and usually did not get paps too often. I had cin2 at worst and this female doctor just told me to go home and take some good multivitamins, get lots of rest and eat well. It regressed to normal within 6 months. I told a friend and she freaked out since she was told she needed a cone biopsie for cin2.
    I had a few more paps after that. I stopped a few years after I got married since these male doctors at the walkin clinic were terrible. One asked for sex with me after. I was assaulted by one doctor. Another just did not know how to do it and it came back unsatisfactory. After that I tore up the letter the cancer care Ontario sent me, told them to stop sending me letters and never had one since. Being a survivor or childhood abuse makes it really difficult for me to even go to the dentist or doctor at all. So I thought if I did not want the birth control pill then I would not need a Pap test so I never bothered.

    After 10 years of no Pap tests we got a new family doctor. When we signed to the practice he lied and said a female doctor would be available for physicals. He had pressured me several times for paps and he is just creepy about it. He once told me that it I did not get a pap tes then he would have to drop me as a patient, I told him to write a letter then and make sure he dated and signed it. He never did. He has actually searched my medical records for when I had paps. It is just creepy how he acts. I refuse and he GETS angry. I even think he phoned one evening very drunk to tell me he lost money over it. I have had a female call and say “you bitch. I hope you die of cervical cancer”. (Suspect it was his wife/partner who is also a doctor) I suspect he has a hidden video camera in his exam room and when I know for sure I will be reporting it to the police to investigate. Otherwise I will not remove clothing or go with my husband for all consultations. My husband does not believe me and the situation is causing me too much stress. Most of the online reviews of their medical practice are poor or unrealistically good.
    Thanks for everyone’s advice to get another doctor. I might think about it but even if I find a female one there is going to be the same pressure to pap. Right now I do not really have any health problems or take any medications regularly. I was using a walk-in clinic for over ten years only I hate the waiting times. At least this jerk has a short wait but I do not trust him now since has misdiagnosed me a few times. But I have stayed healthy for the past 6 months taking extra vitamins and herbs. I have not been to the doctor and I am considering finding a naturopathic doctor.

    I did find a few websites at first that had some strategies for survivors of abuse to get through pelvic exams such as not taking off all the clothes, telling the examiner, bringing their own blanket, bringing their own chaperone. Then I found this site and I realized at some point that I did not have a need for a pelvic exam since I have no symptoms and I could refuse. I would like the get a self HPV test but that is difficult to get in Canada, even by mail.

    Most of what is on the internet about paps tests is just the usual that women should get them and they are harmless, the usual propaganda. Now I am a bit obsessed with doing research. I post up much here. I have actually looked at my own cervix. I think it looks ok and not cancerous but then I am no expert just seeing what the online textbooks for colposcopy have to compare. It nags in my mind that I could have cancer in my body somewhere but then I remind myself that I do not agree with the conventional cancer treatments and probably would refuse them. So no pain or problems, no diagnosis. I will avoid cancer screenings and stay ignorant of any cancer in my body that is not causing symptoms. I might live another 30-50 years unmolested and unmedicated. (I have female relatives who lived into their 90’s and one is 100 years old).

    • Oh Kate! I cannot put words together in a sensible sentence. My blood is boiling. There are so many things wrong with the demos statement and what I have read on the internet today. I’m going to have to lie down in a dark room and drink gin.

      Several things come to mind – in no particular order –
      Informed consent
      Saving the NHS millions !!!!
      Most GP appointments are ten minutes long – where is the time for a smear?
      More bullying from GPs
      Mother and daughters should go together WTF?
      Celebrity endorsement!
      Religious leaders?
      100% of women “must screen”

      The “excuses for not screening”, are always “embarrassment”. “too busy ” etc, never “no thanks I don’t want one”.

      and relax.

    • What does strike me from the article, which we should discuss, that “cervical cancer is the only preventable cancer”. “It can be detected and treated in the early stages before symptoms appear.” This is the argument my doctor gave me In pressuring me to test. So how much truth is in this?

      There is no cure for HPV infection or cervical cancer, there is only treatment. The treatments for precancerous cells are: from conventional medicine are LEEP (surgicaly removal of part of the cervix with a hot wire), cone biopsy (cutting out part of the cervix with a a scalpel), cryotherapy ( freezing the surface of the cervix). None of these methods are 100% effective in preventing cancer and some infections will progress to cancer. Most HPV infections may spontaneously resolve without treatment if the women’s immune system is stimulated.

      for cervical cancer the treatment is hysterectomy and variations (surgical removal of the cervix, uterus and/or ovaries). It might be also with chemotherapy and radiation.

      Some other alternatives are chemically burning the cervix surface with zinc chloride and applying herbs. Some supplements are supposed to stimulated the immune system or shown that women with deficiencies such as folic acid tend to have HPV infections.

      What worries me is the inaccuracy of the Pap test and the overtreatments of HPV infections that might resolve on their own. Damage to the cervix from treatments can result in infertility. Pap tests can cause miscarriage in early pregnancy. Plus who wants all the being done do there when it might not be necessary.

      As someone pointed out that self tests and HPV tests are not mentioned in the article. The focus is on saving the pap screening programmes by getting maximum participation.

      I believe the money spent on screening would be better spent on better treatments for cervical cancer or methods for controlling HPV infection such as antiviral medications. If more people were using HPV tests, the prices would go down. The HPV tests would also have to be more specific to strains.

    • Thank you very much for bringing this to our attention. I’ve already contributed a comment to this site. I think Jo Salter, is from Jo’s Cancer Trust, and they are heavily into targeting young women into screening. They have announced that it is Cervical Cancer week this week and the vileness of their propaganda is in full swing. They have even got Sainsbury’s (a major food chain for those of you outside the UK), to donate 50p to them for each pair of knickers they sell this week. Definitely won’t be buying any from here in the future, and will be writing to Sainsbury’s to complain.

  49. Anon,
    It’s not preventable with pap testing because the test produces false negatives, it also, misses most adenocarcinoma of the cervix. You have a better chance with something like the new Dutch HPV primary testing program.
    The pap test also, cannot distinguish between the high grade lesions that will progress to actual cc (in rare cases) from the vast majority that go nowhere, so testing leads to over-treatment.
    The way pap testing is carried out it leads to high over-treatment, that is, testing more often than 5 yearly from 30 to 60, while the woman is pregnant, within 6 months of giving birth etc.
    Now we can include doing pap tests on women who are HPV- or before testing them for HPV or offering them a HPV self-test kit/device.
    So it’s not true that cc is preventable with pap testing, some cases may be caught (and it can’t be many when the cancer is rare) but along with that comes awful distress and damage to large numbers of women.
    Even Finland over-treats, a LOT less than us, but the pap test is inaccurate so using it WILL lead to, IMO, unacceptably high over-treatment rates, certainly when you consider the risk of cc is remote.
    I know our lifetime risk of referral is about 77%, I’ve read Finland is about 35% (the lifetime risk of the cancer is less than 1%…0.65%)
    The new Dutch program though will see over-treatment rates plummet, when you’re only pap testing 5% of women, the potential for over-treatment is capped.

    The scandalous thing though is no one gives women these figures, we get a bald and totally incorrect statement or just an order to screen. That’s wrong on every level, but culpable given the potential for harm is so high.
    No cure for HPV, but almost all clears naturally within a year or two.

    We’d save more lives if we told women the truth, instead we’re protecting population pap testing that does not benefit about 95% of women, but harms large numbers. We hide the significance of being HPV- and lie to women, “you still need a pap test”. Who benefits from these lies?

    IMO, it’s mostly about protecting the status quo, denying women balanced and complete information, better screening options and keeping women under the control of these programs and vested interests. When millions is made from not-at-risk women they’ll fight and lie to keep us in day procedure and coming in regularly for unnecessary testing.

  50. Like most cancers , cervical cancer has specific proteins that can be detected in the blood. HPV infection does produce specific proteins that promote changes in the cells that become malignant. The focus of cancer screening should shift to these proteins not fancier Pap tests or colposcopy imaging. Amplification techniques and antibody binding are not technology that is beyond what is available today. Only it is expensive. How do you put a cost on a woman’s life and well being?

    HPV tests are useful but when 80% of the HPV infections are likely to resolve on their own then overtreatment is going to happen. Even “persistent” infection with HPV, what does that mean? An older woman could acquire a new HPV infection (different strains) and it would be considered “persistent” and given a very drastic treatment. It’s currently used HPV tests are either qualitative (positive or negative) or nonspecific (high or low risk strains groups). Individual strains are not tested for and it is already known which strains cause the most cancers.

    I do not find the current screening, diagnostic or treatments for cervical cancer acceptable where I live at all. So I do not test at all. While I know that if I do develop cancer that I could die from it because I will not be diagnosed at an earlier stage, I balance that off with being older and trying to get pregnant. Obviously I am running out of time and getting my cervix damaged is not going to help me get pregnant. I have also heard of many women miscarrying after having a Pap test in the first trimester which is “routine” prenatal care here,

    Only now I am terrified that if I do get pregnant that I will be forced to get a Pap test in order to get the prenatal care I might need. Less and less docotrs are doing obsteriics and most doing gynoclogy because it is an easier job with better pay and hours. Midwives are available but they difficult to book and will drop patients for any complication or “noncompliance” for testing. Pregnancy is a other area where women seem to have all the lies thrown at them as well. They are given screening tests and told that some conditions could be dealt with prenatal surgery when in reality they are unlikely to be able to find that option and will be pushed into an abortion.

    As well women are offered hysterectomy for fibroids because few doctors will do myomectomy. If women are suffering from fibroids then they will lose their uterus and ovaries because that is what they do here.

    Funny but no women ever really talk about it. Why the silence?

    • Anon, if the woman being ‘treated’ for HPV was infected by, or has passed on the infection to, her current partner, there’s a high possibility that she will simply be re-infected by her partner when she resumes relations. Worse still, her poor butchered cervix is probably still healing, so is particularly vulnerable.

      Sometimes I wonder whether this ‘epidemic’ of so-called pre-cancer isn’t caused by the treatments themselves – of course there’s going to be a huge amount of overdiagnosis when you’re using a lousy test, but I find it curious that the experts keep warning us that the incidence rate of CC is rising when disease was in decline before mass testing began.

  51. FYI, I’m in the UK.

    It’s so good to see other people (intelligent, informed people, not ‘silly’ as some would paint us) feel the same as myself. I saw this blog today, about someone’s experience of getting a smear test, further investigation and *immediate* treatment: http://lipssofacto.com/little-reminder/ . The fact the treatment was immediate perpetuates this idea that we’ve all got festering, cancerous cervixes that are about to kill us at any moment. The writer of that blog does admit it was emotionally upsetting as much as physically uncomfortable, but I do wish people would stop dismissing the original smear test as “not painful”. It wasn’t painful to you personally – there are plenty of accounts from people who did find it painful.

  53. Welcome Victoria, so true. Interesting and telling that countries that don’t test those under 30 have no more or less cervical cancer than countries that test young women. If we were catching all of these deadly cancers in young women, you’d suspect lots of young women are dying from cc in Finland and the Netherlands and that’s simply not the case. The Finns have had their start-screening age at 30 since the 1960s, so this is not new evidence. The Finns have the mowest rates of cc in the world and refer FAR fewer women for “treatments” and excess biopsies.

    Young women produce lots of false positives, some highly abnormal, and can then produce a normal pap test result six months later. Pap testing simply does not work for those under 30, is a disaster for those under 25 and is problematic for all women as it leads to high excess biopsy and over-treatment rates. Now of course, we can easily identify the roughly 5% who are HPV+, these are the only women who should be offered a 5 yearly pap test, (not immediate colposcopy) until they clear the virus.
    These “immediate treatment of pre-cancerous cells” accounts by young women are common in Australia, the UK and the States, we don’t protect young women and give them bad medical advice. Well, we all get bad medical advice, here women are urged to engage in serious over-screening when we know most are not even at risk, but it keeps day procedure full and that makes lots of groups very happy.
    Some of these young women will go on to have psych, health and obstetric issues as a result of these early and immediate “treatments”.

  54. I wrote more yesterday but kept getting an error message, so here’s the next section (maybe WP was identifying me as spam or the post was just too long!):

    I opted out a few years ago and filled out a form. I thought it was permanent removal but found out it was a 3 or 5 year opt-out. At the time I was just glad the letters would stop so I didn’t think ahead to having to renew my opt-out. I remember the final-convincer information sheet didn’t mention a risk factor that was pushed by nurses I spoke to, NHS websites etc… I can’t remember exactly what the risk factor was, but I do remember that feeling of surprise when I didn’t see it on the official final attempt to get me to change my mind (why not if the tests are so important?).

    • Hi Victoria, I’m also based in the UK and managed to opt out about 10 years ago, but I think they have changed the system now. I had two smear tests forced on me during they 1990’s when I had my first child, and I decided never again was I going to put up with this rape. I endured constant harassment from my GP and nurse every time I visited. My GP was a screening zealot and the nurse is an idiot creature who asked me if I wanted to die, and how could I do this to my child etc, etc.
      With my second child I insisted I would have the smear after my pregnancy not during, and this got them off my back while I was pregnant. After I had given birth I telephoned to cancel my post-natal assessment at short notice, saying I would reshedule, but of course I never did. Sometime about 2005 I got a phone call, completely out of the blue asking me why I was not attending smear tests. The lady was polite and I was polite, but I clearly gave reasons why I had decided not to attend. I was furious that the NHS was employing people to do this, and so was my husband, since this phone call clearly pertained to his sexual history too. However, two days later, this opt out letter appeared in the post, which I filled out immediately. I have to say, that on the rare occasions, I have visited this GP since, the smear test has not been raised. I’ve since got myself another GP, making it clear in a written letter that I wanted a GP who was not going to push screening on women.

      • Yes I would refuse a pap during pregnancy. I have heard too many stories of bleeding and miscarriage afterwards. Even the pamphlet that comes with the little brush for the Pap test says do not use after 8 weeks of pregnancy. So at 7 1/2 weeks it is ok to ram a stick up the cervical os and not harm the pregnancy? I do not think so.

        What bothers me is that you cancelled your post natal assessment. What exactly was that for? To check if you had any tears that were healing well? But then you felt you had to forgo that since you would be pressured into a pap lying there naked and vulnerable? Just like me so fed up with pap pressure that we avoid medical appointments that might be helpful.

        Yes and I very well resent that personal details about my sex life are recorded into a government database without my permission or even knowledge until a few months ago.

        About the article posted previously. The immediate treatment issue is not about informed consent. It is a trick. As long as these people think that they are going to get paid they will pull it.

        However the story itself is somewhat unbelievable. I never heard of a Pap test result coming back so fast and then a colposcopy scheduled the next day? Where I live (public system) all serious cases will get immediate colposcopy which means within 6 weeks. They would have to do a biopsy first to make sure and then those results of the histology would have to come back after maybe two weeks or several days. The appointment for the LEEP scheduled. Anyway cin3 can take years to develop into cancer or regress naturally. The effect of this unbelievable sequence of events is maybe to influence women reading it to think “yeah, I had an abnormal pap and I had to wait 6 months for my colposcopy and LEEP. So what is going on? Why didn’t I get immediate treatment if I was at risk of cancer.” So the lie continues.

      • Hi Moo, the post-natal assessment is just a check up on the mother, that she has fully recovered after the birth, and can then be signed off from that pregnancy. I forgot to mention that both my births were happy home births, but in order to get the home births my doctor said that everything had to be OK for them to go ahead, and this is when she pressed me into the smear tests – no smear test, no home birth. She did one when I was pregnant the first time and I was very reluctant to have it done, and it was painful. When the scrape came out it was very bloody, and she said there and then that it wouldn’t be any good as there was too much blood on it. I was very anxious about damage done to my baby, but she assured me it would be OK. My membranes ruptured 4 weeks before my due date, but I didn’t tell anyone, and a week later I had my baby at home and had a 2nd degree tear, which I wanted left unstitched. Otherwise the home birth went well. It was at the post-natal assessment 6 weeks later, that I thought my doctor was checking the healing of the tear, when in fact she shunted the largest size metal speculum into me, without any warning. It caused me excruciating pain. I was not anticipating a smear test at this check-up, but doctor only wanted her smear test, and had no interest in my well being at all, Then she walked out of the room afterwards, and left me to get dressed. She wasn’t interested in how the birth had gone or anything. It left me very traumatised and emotionally damaged for years afterwards. I can still get tearful thinking about this experience even now.

        With my second pregnancy I knew how to play it. I said I’d have the pap after the baby was born, in order to get them to OK me for another home birth. This next birth also went very well, but baby was a whopping 9 pound 8 ounces. I sustained a 3rd degree tear, and the midwife told me that this time I really needed to go into hospital, and get major repairs done to my vagina, which I agreed to. A 4th degree tear is where the baby comes out through the anus as well, so I was relieved to hear that my tear had just stopped short of the anal sphincter, and was classed as 3rd degree. It was my first time in stirrups, but as they gave me a spinal block, I felt no pain at all while they carried out the repairs, and having been in labour all night with no sleep, I was totally zonked out, but also blissfully happy that I had given birth to this gigantic baby beside me. It was a good experience, but there was no way I could face the post-natal assessment 6 weeks later with my screening-mad doctor, so I cancelled this. The post-natal check was especially important for me to attend to check my repairs, but I was so traumatised from the previous one, that I could not bring myself to go. However, I was fortunate not to suffer any problems at all, until I got the endometrial cancer symptoms last year. I am now 2 weeks post -total hysterectomy, and they’ve also taken my ovaries, tubes and cervix too. I should be hearing soon, whether I’ll need to have radiation treatment or whether I’m completely clear to have no further treatment at all. I had it done laparoscopically, and they went in through my navel, and made 3 other tiny incisions, but otherwise there is nothing to see, and my recovery has been excellent. It was a lot better than I thought it was going to be.

        My backside has been through a lot. I certainly hope I don’t lose any more of it.

  55. Oh but despite opting out formally, which I did partly to stop the interrogation every time I went to the doctor about something else, I’m still getting asked every time I go in for my pill prescription. I thought it would show on screen that I’ve opted out. I think it does, but it’s on another tab or they don’t look closely enough before asking. I used to dread going for my repeat prescription because I knew I’d be asked and the nurses would look at me like I was deranged/simple. The questioning took up half of the time I was in there! I saw a different nurse recently who still asked, but handled it better. I asked to see her again at my latest appointment and she pushed it a little more, but at least her attitude wasn’t bad. I’m making a point of always asking for her in future.

  56. Thanks to whoever posted the Word document setting out the UK procedure. It annoyed me that they used the phrase “valid reason”, and failed to list any of our concerns on here as examples of a valid reason. It reminded me of how we’d be spoken to at school. An adult should be able to give their reason (if they choose, a “no thank you” should be enough) and not be told their reasoning isn’t valid. I also think it’s a nerve to say people opting-out permanently “MUST” go in for counselling. It makes us sound as if we have psychological issues that need to be fixed, and give up our time to go and do that. I’ve not been told to do this but would challenge them and ask what would happen if I refused. Surely they can’t make a demand on someone’s time in this way? If I absolutely had no choice, I’d just sit there and say I’m not going to argue with them because it’ll be a waste of time, but will still opt-out at the end.

    I agree with others about how the UK media trots out tragic stories, and then you’re seen as being personally responsible for this person’s fate just because you choose not to have smears. I also hate the “all womankind together” vibe, as if we must collectively agree on everything.

    • I can’t believe you have to opt out and someone calls you and they recommend counseling. It’s an optional screening test for a rare cancer. That’s coercion. How many women give in because of the hassle. Elizabeth stated in one of her posts that it’s pressure similar to buying a car or a Turkish rug. Personally I’ve encountered less pressure when buying a car or Persian rug.

      • Victoria, you do not have to go to counselling. I believe that you can download the opt out paperwork from the pages of your Local Health Authority. Failing that, write a letter to your GP and cc the LHA , stating that you wish to opt out of screening. You do not have to give a reason.

        If you are asked again in any consult, look straight into their eyes and say in a cool, clear voice, “No thank you. I do not wish to screen. I do not wish to discuss this any further”.

        I find the eye to eye contact works a treat. Some HCP sulk and bluster and try to get a reason out of you. Just stare at them and refuse to engage. Don’t start a debate, as they may end up shouting at you. You know when a HCP starts to raise their voice, you have won the argument. I have stared down many a HCP that think they can bully me. I’m far too old for that s**t.

      • Mint, age has it’s advantages.
        Victoria, all cancer screening is elective and BY LAW requires your informed consent and doctors have an ethical obligation to obtain that consent.
        It’s a try-on, like most of this nonsense, they get away with it, so it keeps happening.
        I knew it was rubbish, but contacted the NHS cervical screening program anyway when another UK woman posted here about the counseling “requirement”.
        They promptly responded to my email, informing me there was no such requirement and that it sounded like an overly zealous GP (or similar words) Some practice nurses take it upon themselves to chase women, like women are somehow breaking the law, they need to be stopped in their tracks. Of course, the practice must train them to behave this way or must know they harass women.
        I challenged some jack boot nurses on a nursing website about their unethical conduct and attitudes.

        When they push, if you push back, they usually accept they have an informed woman in their presence and let it go.
        I’ve always found being polite, firm and “concerned” works a treat, my GP even asked me to email her a copy of the NCI summary on breast screening.
        I noted a few years ago the medical practice I’ve used for many years now does not have the Papscreen or Breast screen “information brochures” in the waiting room. I’d previously expressed “concern” about their contents and wonder if others also, said something to the GPs. Anyway, for whatever reason, I was delighted to see they were gone and have stayed away. (I circled the misinformation and omissions in the “brochure” and put medical references alongside)

        I agree with Mint though, many doctors and others will try and engage you in debate and some women then feel trapped or overwhelmed, I’d welcome the debate at my age, but as a younger woman I avoided doctors. I wasn’t as brave as many on this forum, but I agree, just stating firmly you’re opting out of screening and don’t wish to discuss it further, wasting valuable consult time, is a good move. If they persist, I’d probably say, “I’ve spoken to the NHS Screening Authority about opting out, should I ask them to call you?” That should do it…I’d probably also, add the Medical Council to the sentence, “should I also, check with the Medical Council? I understand women have a choice when it comes to screening, something called….umm, that’s right, informed consent”.

        Sorry, I was enjoying that too much…

      • Oh I agree, I’ll be a stubborn mule (and have been before I was opted-out) in discussions about this with any nurse or doctor. I’m a quiet person, not an extrovert, but would never do something I was uncomfortable with. I really feel for the women who are mentally or physically upset, but don’t speak out. I have a certain amount of respect for health professionals and the work they do, but not to the point where I think they’re a superior being.

        I haven’t been “told” to go to counselling (but it appears to be how the NHS handles permanent removal from the mailing list), which makes me think I’m only opted-out on a temporary basis at the moment. Time will tell, and it’ll be a couple of years before I know whether I need to fill out a form again.

        The more I think about this topic, the sillier it gets. For example, yes I’m asked whether I smoke and if I know how to check for breast cancer, but they’re quick questions compared to the few sentences I get about cervical screening (which used to be more). Rhetorical question: if it’s a case of protecting public health, why not encourage everyone to have check-ups? Why not ask me about my diet, fitness, do a cholesterol check, use of sun protection, bowel habits, etc… They focus on this one rare cancer. Going off-topic a bit, but my husband and I run and he’s prone to niggles and pains. He was on online forums where other runners were getting this response from their GP: “Well, you’re not overweight so just stop running.” They just seem to have healthcare the wrong way around.

  57. The blog post I linked to above includes this sentence: “there is so little advertising or education about cervical screening” She uses this as a reason to get out there and subject yourself to this test, rather than the spin we’d put on it which is that because of so little education, women blindly go in and say, “yes, smear test me!”, “yes, have a closer look!”, “yes, burn off the cells right now while I’m still legs akimbo and you’ve literally just told me they’re pre-cancerous!”

    Sorry that was long and to have to do it across a few posts. I’ve just not seen so many people together who agree on this and I’d still not feel comfortable saying I don’t get tested to women I know. I’m more confident at the doctor’s because I can just walk out if they’re not listening to me, threaten a formal complaint etc… With people you know they can still harp on about it.

  58. One more thing about the immediate treatment. On the one hand I can see why treatment of any immediate medical issue could be better to be done straight away because the patient won’t go home and worry for however long until their next appointment (which could be a while, knowing the UK system). On the other hand, I’m uncomfortable with the idea of patients being on a production line and steered/pressured into having treatment immediately. They should be presented with a choice. Well, a choice of whether the treatment happens or not, but also a choice about when it happens. If there was a delay some people would go home and get some anxiety pills prescribed, research online and find out people in the same country have been able to have sedation/anaesthesia (even if that’s not the normal procedure), or find out the treatment is dubious/pointless. Plus, you might have only put aside time for the original appointment, not treatment and possibly days off work afterwards. I think that should apply to any medical treatment, but in the case of the over-treatment of abnormal cervical cells, it’s even more worrying to be hurried into possibly unnecessary treatment.

    My mother-in-law also had immediate treatment for an eye problem after going in for a hospital appointment, which involved a laser and she said it was unpleasant (as an understatement). My husband took her, expecting it to take a couple of hours (including travel), and he was gone for the whole day. They didn’t take food either because they didn’t expect to be there for so long. Practically and emotionally, immediate treatment isn’t always ideal.

  59. Meant to post this yesterday, but I couldn’t get the icon on the bottom for some reason.

    Victoria: Maybe someone should simply say “It DOES hurt.” Then, when someone makes an argument, they shoot themselves in the foot because they’ve said it doesn’t in substitution of other people. It really wouldn’t be making things up & it would open up the door for pointing out that they do an awful lot of fictional substitution when it comes to other people’s thinking & decisions.

    Properties don’t charge by designation- just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder. This applies to other assaultive situations, as well. A situation is what it consists of, but yet when the situation consists of an interface with a sexual area (specifically a penetrative one) as a product of somoene else’s decision-making it’s presented as a non-issue. The idea that reality takes a coffee break for doctors is false.

    Sue- Been wondering what happened with the ratings thing. Also, I haven’t been able to get a “Post Comment” icon on the bottom sometimes. Do you think someone is screwing around with the website, like with that Blogcritics things that happened a while ago. Don’t know if you’ve got all this backed-up somehow, but it would maybe be a good idea.

    • Alex I should have let you and everyone know that I moved the most recent page of comments to the first page (rather than have it placed last) so there would be less clicking required to get to the most recent comment.

      Victoria welcome! I’m not sure why you were unable to post earlier. I checked the discussion settings and could find no setting related to word limit. WP might have a limit but if they do I have no control over it. I’m really glad you were able to get it working!

      The rating, thumbs up/down buttons were fixed so all the previous ups and downs should have been restored.

  60. I read something that was on a link from here & wanted to ask you all:

    Do you think women tend toward having a “tend & befriend” resposne in confrontational situations, instead of a “fight or flight” response? I’ve seen it termed a “fight, flight, freeze, fawn” response, but it seems that it’s sometimes harder for women to be counter-aggressive.

    For myself, I always found it enjoyable to counter-attack. A lot of people didn’t get that it was generated BY the situation, not a baseline drive that was always there. I didn’t even feel an urge to take it out on someone else like some people do. That prospect was never appealing, because it wasn’t good enough- it wasn’t them that I had an issue with, so it wouldn’t have been satisfying.

    The concept of situational behavior was typically omitted whenever a discussion of this nature came up. Even in books about WAR, there seems to always be a gap in the information that is presented. Like it’s always some kind of “wind-up toy mentality,” and it’s simply a question of which direction it’s aimed in. The information that gets dispensed tends to match this, too. So now someone might think they’re a nut-job for righteous anger & feeling good about hurting someone that was antagonizng them. This can apply to the doctor trying to do one thing or another to them & their causing this goal to go unfulfilled.

    Look, there’s no way to say anything so that someone else can’t lie or twist your words on their own- so don’t try to look for some kind of “perfect argument” to make in an ethical debate. You wind up going back & forth a lot when it comes to self-defense & ultimately if someone is an instigator in that way, they’re pretty much aligned in the “I know it’s a problem, but I like problems” way. There’s no point in trying to make your case & point things out in an effort to educate them, since the problem was never them not knowing something. This can be hard to soak in when someone doesn’t wear this on their face & might very well make you question yourself, but I guess that’s the goal.

    • Nice work Elizabeth, as always – it’s just a shame most people are too brainwashed (or just plain stupid) to comprehend what you wrote!
      Another thing that annoyed me about the Demos research – they say that reducing the cancer incidence by half (pure speculation, as you know) will save the NHS 10 million pounds on cancer treatment.
      But if they managed to force every woman to drop her knickers on cue, that would mean an extra million tests every year, at around £25 per test. So that at least another £25 million pounds added to a screening program which already costs £175 million a year.
      Factor in the HPV testing in addition to the bullshit paps…
      All the overdiagnosis, overtreatment, further interventions…
      Cervical screening isn’t cost effective in the first place. How do these moron researchers get away with such nonsense? It’s a wonder they can tie their own shoelaces. Sheesh!

    • Elizabeth, re your response,can you hear me clapping? I wish there were a gazillion more of you.

  62. Kate, the attitude seems to be, say anything, do anything, to protect the program.
    These programs (or the Govt) fund research, but only things that might help the program, we have virtually nothing on over-treatment rates, the one study I’m aware of is horrifying, yet it was never released to women and prompted no changes to the program or further research.

    These programs often use advertising agencies, psychologists and researchers to protect their “work”. I don’t consider them healthcare meaures, they harm FAR more than they help.
    You’re right, screening everyone would add millions to the program and harm even more women and would probably still miss the women with a real issue.
    The dishonesty is gobsmacking…they assume we’re all idiots.

  63. Do any of you know more about the HPV vaccine and why it was introduced? Even if you’re not in the UK, I get the impression you’d be aware that it’s been introduced here for teenage girls (I presume it excludes those who aren’t virgins – potentially awkward for those girls to have to disclose what they have/haven’t done with a partner).

    If being HPV+ is still not a major problem, why go to such lengths to vaccinate against it? This must be a costly programme. What are people’s thoughts? Do you think this is medically justified (on an individual basis and on a wider scale when it’s paid for with public money). For example, a health initiative might be harmless, but in the grand scheme of things do you think it’s money well spent in a system where there isn’t a bottomless pit of money to go around.

    Oh and I was told by an NHS nurse that not having HPV didn’t matter and I should still be screened. That makes the HPV vaccine even more pointless if it’s true.

    • If you go to Natural News.com you’ll find a few articles on that Gardisil vaccine. There’s also a thread about it on here. Honestly, I don’t know much about all the biological stuff- but this shot has, apparently killed more than a few people & at least one girl seems to have been made menopausal at SIXTEEN from it. Hair loss, seizures, paralysis- all kinds of different effects from this shot. There’s all kinds of things in shots & medicine that no one knows what effect they are going to have, particularly long-term.

      Ultimately, medical quality is determined by patient satisfaction- not academic value. Doctors tend toward poorly grading someone’s decisions as a means of undermining them, so I figure that’s a pertinent thing to reference. Sometimes it doesn’t pay to worry too much about one claim of biological effect or another, since they constantly lie to make money (and, in my honest opinion, to inflict harm).

      • Hello Alex. Hello Everybody.

        I am placing my translation under Alex’s comment as I wrote to him some time ago that one day I would translate the PETITION AGAINST THE PLANNED INTRODUCTION OF COMPULSORY INTIMATE EXAMINATIONS ON WOMEN IN 2009.

        Of course, the demeaning and totally humiliating prooposal of the stupid former Minister of Health for Poland did not come into life at all, thanks to wise and sensitive people, like the Polish lady who wrote this petition in September 2009. The author of the petition used very sensible and convincing arguments against this shameful and horrible proposal.

        I have a request to all of you – people who are against any unnecessary and harmful infringement on the human body, to the people who are against any discrimination of women not only in the light of the law but also in your own minds and in your own way of life and conduct – please, send this translated petition from Polish into English whenever possible, to various websites centred on human rights, on women’s rights, to various portals and discussion forums – so that people know that we all must act against any violations of the law.

        Although Poland has had another Minister of Health since 2011 or 2012 and the one in office has not planned to introduce any such appaling regulations, that disgraceful proposal of the former Health Minister of Poland – Ewa Kopacz along with her gynaecologycal lobby must be still reminded of and marked, criticised and stigmatised.

        Because I am busy, I translated this petition quickly, but I hope it will be well understood

        And again – please, send it everywhere possible. Thank you in advance.
        Jola
        ———————————————————————————————————————-
        against compulsory intimate examinations of women

        To:
        TO: THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH
        Ministry of Health, ul. Honey 15,
        00-952 Warsaw
        POLAND

        Open Letter
        I would like to express my great concern about the recently reported information about the intentions of the Minister of Health of imposing compulsory cytological examinations and mammography on working women.
        This obligation is to be entered in the regulation determining the list of mandatory and periodic testing of employees.
        As announced by the Minister of Health – Ewa Kopacz, women employed in the new place of work or already working will be required to perform biennial Pap tests and mammography. Without their execution the doctor will not issue a certificate allowing to work in a specific work place.
        The introduction of compulsory testing infringing the intimate sphere of a huge number of the population under the threat of job loss, and therefore livelihood, would mean a violation of the fundamental principles of the rule of law, violation of the provisions of constitutional and fundamental human rights.
        The most serious argument is that the imposition on working women to undergo a compulsory examination of cytology and mammography constitute a violation of applicable law.
        Firstly, this would be a violation of basic human and civil rights, as enshrined in the Constitution of the Republic of Poland (Journal of Laws of 1997 No. 78, item. 483), and expressed in the following articles:
        I. breach of the principle of the inherent and inalienable human dignity (Article 30 of the Constitution), which is the source of all other rights. The introduction of the obligation for compulsory testing of the intimate places will mean humiliation of women in the
        majesty of the law and the dependence of their value and relevance to the job on holding their gynecological examinations.
        II. violation of the principle of equality of all before the law, equal treatment by public authorities and non-discrimination (Article 32 of the Constitution), as well as a violation of Article 33 of the Constitution constituting the equal rights of women and man, in particular, the equal right to employment (Article 33, paragraph 1 and 2 of the Constitution). The discriminated group will bewomen working or applying for work because will be required by law to carry out more
        medical examinations than men. Unlike women, men do not have to take the corresponding research related to their intimate parts (such as testing for prostate cancer or testicle – when examined late, does not give big chances to be cured, and getting this disease is rather high). There is also the reason to fear that employers will discriminate women in terms of their employment rights. Employment of women will make the employer incur higher costs as these will have to be spent on the additional medical examinations before work. The proposal of the Polish Minister of Health to introduce the obligatory gynaecological examinations for women going to work is also discriminatory because the examsdo not include all women, but just these who are or are going to be employed.

        III. Article 41 of the Constitution, according to which “Everyone shall have the personal inviolability and personal freedom.” Making the possibility of obtaining work be dependent on having to undergo gynecological examinations will undoubtedly seriously violate physical inviolability and personal freedom. Any interference in the intimate organs without consent of the human being, even for medical purposes, is rape.

        IV. Article 47 of the Constitution -“everyone has the right to legal protection of private life (…) and to make decisions about their personal, intimate life ‘. The introduction of compulsory gynecological examinations for employees will be serious interference in their private lives
        and depriving them of the right to decide about their personal lives, and obviously their right for privacy. Sexual life of each person is a private matter, it is personal and intimate, the same as the genitals are considered private parts of the human being. Is the sexual life of women going to stop being their private matter and become part of the control issues of the state apparatus? The decision to undergo gynaecological exams and the frequency, and place of their execution should be the female’s individual decision, in the same way as the decision to check up for cancer of the prostate, of the testicles, and colon is left to males. The woman has therefore the right not to have cytology performed being aware of the possible consequences of her own decision and she has the right to normally work in spite of her not undergoing this medical procedure. It is absolutely the same in case of smokers – everyone has the right to smoke cigarettes being aware of the possible consequences of it and also they have the right to work at the same time.

        V. art. 53 paragraph. 1 of the Constitution constituting about “freedom of conscience and religion.” Interference in the intimate area of the human body undoubtedly arises ethical doubts. The Polish legal system even ensures the right to refuse a blood transfusion for
        religious reasons – which is not yet the prophylactic procedure at all, but it is absolutely life- saving surgery. Why, then, is it going to be impossible for a woman to refuse to submit to the gynecological examination which allegedly aims at the eventual diagnosis of cancer?

        VI. Article 68. 1 of the Constitution that everyone has the right to health, which should be understood that every citizen is entitled to make a decision about his/her state of health, and thus has the right to refuse to submit to testing or hospitalization. This provision manifestly does not impose an obligation on a citizen to protect his health (with the exception of infectious diseases, but it does not include cancer).
        The introduction of mandatory testing for women working and taking up employment under the threat of job loss or not getting it is associated with breaking of many of the basic principles of employment law, such as:

        I. “Employees shall have equal rights in respect of the performance of identical duties; This applies in particular to equal treatment for men and women employment “(Art.112 of the Labour Code (Journal of Laws 1974 No. 24, item. 141, amended.)

        II. “Any discrimination in employment, direct or indirect, in particular with regard to sex, age, disability, race, religion, nationality, political views, union affiliation, ethnic origin, religion, sexual orientation, and also with regard to the employment for a definite or indefinite period of full-time or part-time work – Is unacceptable. ” (Article 113 of the Labour Code),

        III. “Employees should be treated equally as regards the establishment and termination of employment, conditions of employment, promotion and access to training to improve professional skills, in particular, regardless of gender, age, disability, race, religion, nationality, political views, trade union membership, ethnic origin, religion, sexual orientation, and regardless of employment for a specified period or not listed in either full-time or part-time work “(Article 183a § 1The Labour Code),

        IV. “Equal treatment in employment means non-discrimination in any way, directly or indirectly, from the reasons specified in § 1 “(Article 183a § 2 of the Labour Code),

        V. “Direct discrimination exists when an employee for one or a number of reasons specified in § 1 was, is, or could be treated in a comparable situation less favorably than other employees “(Article 183a § 3 of the Labour Code),

        VI. “Indirect discrimination exists when, as a result of a seemingly neutral provision, criterion, or action taken adverse disparities or particularly unfavorable situations occur or could occur as regards the establishment and termination of employment, conditions of employment, promotion and access to training for professional skills to all or a substantial number of workers belonging to a group distinguished, due to one or more of the grounds set out in § 1, unless that provision, criterion or conduct is objectively justified by the legitimate objective to be achieved and the means of achieving that aim are
        appropriate and necessary “(Article 183a § 4 of the Labour Code).
        It should also be noted that, in accordance with Art. 32 of the Act of 5 December 1996 on the Profession of Doctor and Dentist (Journal of Laws of 2008. No. 138, as amended poz.857.), the doctor may perform a test or provide other health examinations after
        consent of the patient. The exception to this rule regards the examinations of people who are under aged or incapable of conscious consent. Does this mean that the Ministry of Health considers working women under aged or incapable of making informed consent?
        In addition to that, such coercion is doubtful in the following ways:

        1 Compulsion (and especially the compulsion encroaching upon intimate parts) is the worst and most disgusting method of the functioning of a totalitarian state. Compulsory medical examinations were common practice, for example in Nazi Germany and in
        concentration camps, and gynecological coercion under threat of losing jobs and being left with no means of livelihood is the example of the action of the totalitarian, not democratic, state.

        2 Intentions of the Minister of Health have once again proven treatment of women as legally incapacitated people, irrational and incapable of independent decision-making, whose life must be embraced with a number of orders and prohibitions.

        3 It seems obvious that there is no justification for a mandatory diagnosis of a possible cancer through the research of employees, which are intended to check the health of the employee for their work. Cancer is not a contagious disease, which could threaten other employees in their work environment.

        4 The idea is even more questionable in the wake of recent reports of faulty equipment for performing mammography. The Minister of Health wants to force women to undergo the exams with the use of faulty equipment and by gynecologists whose personal culture
        often leaves much to be desired.

        5 I have justified concerns thinking that the Ministry of Health, in the name of false concern, is pushing at all costs, the introduction of these rules in the interests of the medical community and the decisions to force the use of medical treatments on women are due
        – Maybe – to the pressures of companies and people who endorse these tests and make money on them.

        6 Making the prevention of cervical cancer (which has yet to cover workers aged 25-59 years) the priority of the Government is all the more remarkable that cervical cancer is not the largest cause of mortality of women both in terms of overall cause of death, and it is not even the most common cancer. Moreover, there has been a statistically significant mortality among men; More men than women die of cancer – the more surprising, therefore, is the plan of forcing women to undergo the additional examinations, but not men.

        7 The most common causes of death are heart disease and lung disease, and the diagnosis and treatment from the Ministry of Health do not attach such importance to these diseases, but is more obssessed with the mania to combat by all means cervical cancer. What makes women, especially their genitals and breasts be regarded withsuch a special concern by the Ministry of Health?

        8 Is the prevention of cervical cancer the matter of such great priority for the Government that it justifies violation of basic constitutional rights, violation of human rights and failure to comply with international agreements on human rights?

        9 It should also have regard to the understanding of the importance of medical treatments that are safe or unsafe. Attitude to health examinations changes over the years with the advancement of medical knowledge. There is therefore a serious risk that even
        if in the opinion of officials from Health Ministry of Poland mammography and cytology are the most desirable and safe for all women, in a few or several years it may be proven that these medical procedures cause more harm than good. It has been truly told for many yars that that X-rays have harmful effects on the human organism, and consequently lead to cancer, and the radiation is used in the mammographs.

        The medical community is, therefore, if split as for opinions on the impact of various medical procedures such as mammography. Pap smears are performed with associated with
        imedical instruments which interfere with a very delicate human tissue, and incompetently executed entail risks of mechanical damage to the epithelium, which can lead to inflammation and, consequently, to more serious diseases.

        10 It is forbidden to use compulsory treatment of alcoholics or drug addicts, and the Polish government wants to introduce forced gynecological examination for women? Considering this, is a woman in the eyes of the government less valuable than alcoholics and drug addicts?

        11 These medical examinations are not entirely safe and indifferent to health, as evidenced by:
        * Mammogram – Completely pointless (because unreadable) examination if done on people under 40 years of age – body structure at a younger age is so compact that the breast can be painfully “flattened” by the machine, and there will be still anything meaningful from such a test to read. So the solution is either a total abandonment of mammography on
        people under forty, or swapping (of course also performed voluntarily!) with breast ultrasound.
        * Mammogram – an obvious harm of the radiation!
        * Cytology – the majority of virgin sample for the survey is completely impossible to take (How does anyone intend to solve this problem: “not done – virgin” and sent to the employer. But should the employer know it or care about it?!)
        * Cytology-cervical cancer in virgins has not been observed at all – you have to begin sexual life to have any chance to get this (cancer of the cervix is caused by a virus transmitted sexually).
        * Cytology – slowly and tentatively post master’s theses and doctoral dissertations have been written on the potential impact of frequent cytology on the state of women’s genital tract. And the results suggest that such a relationship exists, and (too) often performed cytology may be a cause of epithelial degeneration and even fibroid!

        (Read more:
        I removed the links because of problems with approving the pasted text.)

        Third of breast cancer ‘harmless’. 10 July 2009,– One in three breast cancers detected by mammogram screening may
        actually be harmless, a study has suggested. Data from five countries, including the UK, suggest some women may have had
        unnecessary treatment for cancers that were unlikely to kill them or spread…
        3/http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/168/21/2311
        The Natural History of Invasive Breast Cancers Detected by Screening Mammography /Per-Henrik Zahl, MD, PhD; Jan Mæhlen,
        MD, PhD; H. Gilbert Welch, MD, MPH /Arch Intern Med. Vol. 168 No. 21, November 24, 2008; 168(21):2311-2316

        I want to point out that I do not wish to act against the importance of prevention and that I am aware of the seriousness of the problem of the increasing incidence of cancer, but in my opinion, the solution proposed by the Minister of Health is not acceptable in a democratic country which, according to the Basic Law, is Poland. The best and one
        possible solution in a democratic State is to leave the decision about the performance of cytology and mammography to women themselves.

        I look forward to a sensible approach to the subject

      • Thanks, Jola! That was a very well-done petition that this woman came up with. I’m suprised the term “iatrogenic assault” never came up, but then it’s not a very well-known phrase. I worry plenty that something like this would get implemented in America- partially because I think the people that didn’t outright support this would try to find the “right reasons” to argue with & that’s usually a losing game. It basically outsources your reply to the opponent= “Hey, do you like this? Do you lose now?”

        I also figure they’d never come out & say “This is a sexual attack with a medical methodology & it doesn’t matter if the one doing gets any gratification from it or not.” Actually, I figure their first words of response would be “Why?” That gives plenty of room for someone to try, instead of just saying “No.”

  64. Yet more conflicting information. I was reading an FAQ sheet from a UK charity (the Eve Appeal), where it said that HPV is sexually transmitted. I explained to a nurse that my husband and I had only been intimate with each other (any type of sexual contact), but she said he could have HPV naturally. If it’s sexually transmitted I don’t understand how he could have it or where it came from. She didn’t say that I could have it naturally. How can my husband have it anyway, but I can’t? Also on that FAQ sheet, it says virgins should still go because some cases of cancer aren’t linked to HPV. Fair enough in itself, but that makes the whole HPV vaccination programme seem a little pointless to me.

    • Victoria, I will attempt to answer a small bit of your questions.

      The HPV vaccine was introduced to make money purely and simply. This article explains some of the issues with the HPV vaccine. http://www.thedailysheeple.com/lead-developer-of-hpv-vaccines-comes-clean-warns-parents-young-girls-its-all-a-giant-deadly-scam_012014

      As for how HPV is transmitted person to person. It is known that one method is by sexual contact, that means any type of sexual contact: penis in vagina sex, genital to hand to genital and different types of sex. How the virus infects the cervix is through tiny tears in the skin layers said to be caused by sexual activity. However I would like to point out that Pap smears scrape the skin layers of the cervix off and a brush is pushed into the cervix opening (os) and causes a wound so medical procedures could likely be a source or method of spreading around the virus in one person or patient to patient. Surfaces can be contaminated with the virus and some studies show that certain types of disinfectants do not kill the virus. So I am convinced that pelvic exams and Pap smears themselves and also transvaginal ultrasounds, childbirth, colonscopy could actually promote HPV infection when high standards of hygeine are not practiced in a clinical setting. Quite possibly HPV could be picked up from public toilets and exercise equipment, water pools etc.

      Since there are so many virus strains that can cause cervical infection, most people would have a few infections In their lifetime. Most will resolve in their own in about two years. What matters is if the infection progresses and body cells become transformed into cancer cells. It is not totally understood why some people can fight off HPV infection and others will progress to cancer. Some studies have shown that smoking and nutritional deficiencies (vitaminsB&C, folates) will influence who gets cancer and who does not.

      The scare tactic of HPV infection is pushed to sell vaccines and screening tests. Only a small percentage of women with HPV will progress to cancer and only with certain strains (not just 16 and 18 in the vaccine) I might also point out that race and geography are associated with which strains are more prevalent. Apparently women of African ancestry tend to get cancer from strains that the HPV vaccine does not protect against.

      Most scientists are agreeing now that all cervical cancers are caused by HPV. Interesting to note that some countries have not licensed HPV tests to be used without Pap tests or self testing at all. They are more interested in protecting doctors income and screening programmes than anyone’s health.

      Sorry it is difficult for me to put up multiple links to articles or give statistics but there are many references in articles on this website.

    • Yeah, they say all kinds of things. I’ll bet at some point “wee-wees are poisonous” will come up as some kind of scam. A scam to trick women into something, most likely.

    • Victoria, you can’t rely on information provided by charities, they profit from scaremongering. (Testing virgins? No. Just. No.)
      Unreliable tests are a godsend to these charities – the more people believe they’ve been ‘saved’, the more supporters (and donations) the charity gets.
      Take Robert Music from Jo’s Trust, for example. Every time there’s any discussion in the media, up he pops, like the proverbial bad penny, spouting his worthless opinions.
      If he really cared about women’s health, he would be pushing for better testing, but no…
      This is the man who told the government that a smear test was quick, easy and painless, a ‘no brainer’. The arrogance of this man is astounding.

      I agree with Moo, that the HPV vaccine is all about profits. You see, Merck (the makers of Gardasil) lost billions of dollars due to a scandal over a drug named Vioxx , and needed to push something new onto the unsuspecting public to fill their wallets again. What better way than to create a vaccine for a skin virus and sell it as a cancer vaccine? They don’t even have a clue how long immunity will last. 8 years? 10? 15? Anybody’s guess.
      And when the vaccine wears off, as it inevitable will, you’ll be exposed to the virus until you get your boosters.
      The NHS website is claiming ‘research has indicated that the HPV vaccine provides effective protection for at least 20 years’. Huh? Who’s doing the research, Mystic Meg?

      This vaccine never did make much sense to me, really. We know that most HPV infections are cleared by the body, and only *persistent* infections are a risk factor.
      So again, as with screening, only a tiny number can possibly benefit from these jabs.
      And I never understood how someone who’s immune system isn’t working very well could produce antibodies in response to a vaccine.
      Politicians know that claiming to care about women health is a big vote-winner, so they’ll do whatever it takes to stay in power. The department of health is quite happy to waste our money – Tamiflu, anyone? If Nanny State gave two hoots about evidence based medicine, we wouldn’t be here now complaining about the pap test – an RCT would have shown it was a bad test right from the start.

      If you get any more medics trying to ‘educate’ you, just look them in the eye and ask sweetly if they’re having trouble reaching their Q.O.F. targets. Us plebs aren’t supposed to know about their incentives so it might make her realise you’re not the silly little girl she takes you for.
      Some nurses just aren’t as smart as they think they are. Stand your ground, don’t let her intimidate you.

    • Victoria, I’ve found over the years that many doctors and nurses (and others) have a poor understanding of cervical screening. (and breast screening) They either accept the official discourse (propaganda), feel they must recommend it because we have a program (so it must be important and work) and some will say anything to get you screened for their own reasons. (feel it’s safer for “them” if you test, personal belief, target payments, protect the program, political brownie points, a “survivor” (almost all are victims of the program, not of cc) etc.)

      My understanding is the fleetingly rare cases of small cell carcinoma of the cervix, that affects 100-200 women every year in the whole of America, “might” not be linked to HPV, some say it is, others disagree, but it also, seems pap testing usually misses these very rare cancers anyway. The disease is usually diagnosed after a woman becomes symptomatic.

      By making HPV seem everywhere, “you’re all at risk”…they try to drag in all women, feeding the program. Giving women accurate information would threaten the program.

      The program and screening zealots will say anything to get you screened, they have no ethical compass and no respect for women. They’re allowed to treat women in a way that would be swiftly dealt with if others tried the same thing.
      A company was hauled over the coals here for offering another sort of breast screening. Yet the program is allowed to mislead women, provide cherry picked research, use unethical tactics etc. They clearly saw the alternative as a threat to women AND the program, another commercial operator moving in on their profitable turf.
      The zealots: If they have to harm HUGE numbers to help one woman, that’s what they’d do and they are happy to write off all of the damage with a, “well, you might have had cancer”. (or they just deny any damage is being done) I think any sort of zealot is best avoided.

      When you suggest something better, they stop listening, dismiss it instantly, and that’s when I know….they really don’t care about women or cervical cancer.
      If we were really concerned about this rare cancer, we’d properly advise women and move to evidence based screening and offer HPV self-testing. Instead they want to drag all women into a lifetime of pap testing and “treating” pre-cancer cells, dysplasia etc, when almost ALL women are HPV- and NOT at risk…so IMO, their concern is more about money, emotion or ignorance.

      I would not accept a lot of risk to cover a rare event, so even if these super rare cancers have nothing to do with HPV, I still wouldn’t consider pap testing.
      I have concerns about Gardasil as well, how much money are we going to spend on this always-rare cancer? Once again I would not accept much risk at all to cover a rare event and I would not believe a word of the official discourse on the subject. I’d be doing my own careful research.
      These things make millions for vested interests so their influence runs deep, we simply can’t trust them with our individual health, IMO, profit is their main concern, not us.

      Women who have never been sexually active (virgins) should be very careful with pap testing, IMO, it’s high risk for no benefit, remember the Dutch will only offer pap testing to the 5% of women aged 30 to 60 who are HPV+
      So sexually active women who are HPV- will not even be offered pap testing.

      The States includes virgins IMO, because “they” think it’s safer to assume all women have been sexually active by a certain age. It’s unacceptable, they should give us the information we need to make the best decision for our risk profile.
      I wonder how many American virgins have had “treatment” for “pre-cancerous” cells, I guess this would convince them to keep testing and perhaps, scare other virgins to test, so it’s a win:win situation for vested interests. Young virginal women would still produce lots of false positives, even normal changes in a maturing cervix could be picked up as “abnormal” sometimes, highly “abnormal”.

      I don’t believe you can catch HPV from a toilet seat, a hot tub, bar of soap etc. I looked into that a few years ago and sent off a few emails. I wouldn’t use another person’s towel or soap after a shower though for personal hygiene reasons.

      I read an interesting article recently though, where medical researcher Laura Koutsky mentioned they found HPV under the fingernails of a young man. This research has not been published, but it could suggest shaking hands with someone could pass on the virus and then if you immediately touch your mouth, anus or genitals….who knows?
      If people were worried about this remote risk though, they could self-test for HPV every 5 or 10 years. Personally, I can live with remote risk, I have far more likely things to worry about. (not that I worry, I do what I can and get on with life)
      Off to my favourite cafe for a coffee and sandwich, now that’s great preventative medicine.

      • Regarding the squamous cell carcinoma, which you mention in your post, I’ve read that this cancer starts to grow inside the muscle and not on the surface of the cervix, so that is why it is often missed by smear testing. It is this invasive fast growing type which goes on to kill younger women, like Jade Goody. A lot of these women did have smear tests, which came back negative because it was this type of cancer, which was not on the surface of the cervix. The families then try to claim financial damages from the false reading of a smear, when in fact it was correctly read, but the NHS won’t admit that it is the smear test itself, which often fails to pick up this type of cancer. They don’t want women to find this out, or they’d stop coming.

        A lot of these women, who develop this type of cancer, have caught it from a very young age, when being sexually abused as children. The families don’t want to admit that abuse has happened in their families, and try to claim compensation through a false smear reading or denial of access to take a smear test as the reason for their daughter’s death.

        Pity that cervical cancer charities like Jo’s Trust cannot divert more of their pile of cash towards child abuse, and saving these teenagers from getting the disease in the first place.

      • Ada, I think you’re talking about adenocarcinoma, Jade Goody had this rare type of cc. The most common type of cc is squamous cell, the pap test is supposed to prevent and detect that type of cc. (although some cases are missed by pap testing)
        I think the break up is something like 70% of cc are SCC, adenocarcinoma is rarer and usually missed by pap testing, it accounts for about 15% of cc and the rest are VERY rare cc…small cell carcinoma or neuro endocrine tumours.
        I was talking about this last group, also, usually missed by pap testing.
        You’re right, misleading women often backfires and they deserve everything they get, I hope we see a class action, some justice for all the women who were tested without their consent or informed consent and suffered badly as a result, having an unnecessary hysterectomy, excess cone biopsy, lost babies etc. No one has the right to treat wmen like that, not the Govt or the medical profession.
        Pleased to hear you’re post surgery and doing well. I hope the system treated you well and fingers crossed all goes well and you don’t need any further treatment.

      • Thank you for correcting me, Elizabeth. I’ll leave you to put the correct names to things in future!

        I’ve been really amazed at how quickly I’ve recovered from my operation. I have to say it has gone much better than I thought it would.

        When I first reported the bleeding problem to my GP, I insisted I was not going to have a smear test, and when referred to the hospital, I wrote them a letter explaining about my past experiences and that there was no way I would undergo a smear test again. Well, at all my hospital appointments, I was never examined at all. I only once had to drop my panties for the ultrasound, which was done by a very, very nice lady. So I went into the D&C under GA with no further examinations, but what happens, when you are unconscious, who knows… I think they must have had a good look around then. The MRI showed my cancer to be stage 1b, grade 2, so I’m just awaiting the final results of the hysterectomy to find out what further treatment, if any, I will be in for next.

        I don’t know if hospitals in the UK have really stood down from all the physical examinations, because they can get all the info they need from scans, or maybe they have a more stood back approach for women, who have been assaulted in the past.

        So it looks as though, that last horrific smear test I had in the 1990’s will be my last ever, but I still want to push for the end of smear testing, for the sake of my daughter.

      • Adawells- good to hear your operation went well, hope you will recover quickly. Can I ask you something? How are these ultrasounds done? Are they exposing the body, or is it covered, can the patient put the equipment in herself?

      • This is a reply to Karen’s post about what the ultrasound is like, but there is no reply button. I don’t know whereabouts in the world you are situated, but here in the UK there is a lot less of getting naked and using stirrups in womens healthcare. Stirrups are only used for operations in hospitals. For the ultrasound scan, it was only a plastic padded couch, covered with a paper sheet, which is changed for each patient. (This is what is used for all pap tests in the UK.) I was wearing trousers, so I had to take these off, and my panties, but I was given a cotton hospital gown which I could tie around before I pulled my underwear off, so no way was I standing around naked from the waist down, and there was only the sonographer and her assistant in the darkened room anyway. I didn’t let them see anything. If you wear a dress or skirt there is no way you need to remove this, you just need to take your tights and panties off.

        The couch is tilted up at the head as though you are propped up in bed to read a book. This is so that you can see to chat, and watch the scan on a separate screen. Both the vaginal and the flat abdominal handsets were attached to the scanner. The vaginal probe is exactly the same size as my OralB electric toothbrush handle- about 1 inch in diameter and about 6 inches long. I said that no way could I have that shoved up me, but the sonographer told me that only the top inch or two is inserted, as she will be holding the rest in her hand to operate it. I was much relieved to hear this, and also relieved that she covered the probe with a condom and then covered this with a very generous amount of lubricant. I only had to lift the hospital gown a little so that she could insert it, and for me it wasn’t uncomfortable at all. They need to move it around a fair bit, and she kept pressing it back towards my rectum, which got only very slightly uncomfortable from time to time.

        Because stirrups are not used, the vagina can get a bit squashed into the couch, so they have a cushion, which they may ask you to slide under your buttocks to lift you up a bit. This is a plastic covered wedge shaped cushion, like a wedge of Edam cheese, but at the thicker end in the middle it has a piece cut out of it, to enable your private parts to hang a bit more freely. As the foot end of the couch was sloping towards the floor, this only raised my bottom half up to a more horizontal position. It wasn’t at all like my bum was poking into the air, or anything like that.

        I didn’t find the vaginal probe a problem, but then I’ve had two children, but I have read many accounts of it being painful to other women, and I understand that it is not carried out on virgins. I asked initially if I could only have the abdominal scanner, but I was told that the vaginal one gets clearer images of the uterus than the abdominal one. A good thing about it, is that you get lots of lubricant put on it, which is not allowed with the speculum in pap tests, as this is thought to contaminate the smear sample. I cannot see why you couldn’t insert it yourself at all, in fact, I’ve heard that this often happens, but the lady I had was very chatty, I simply forgot to ask.

        I wished I had been given so much more information about this by my GP beforehand. I was so worried it would be a repeat of a terrible smear test I’d had years ago, that I’d had hardly any sleep the night before. Before my visit, I had thought that the whole vaginal probe would be inserted into my vagina, and that they would also push it into my womb. I was angry with her that she had sent me into this with only basic information, and I ditched this GP afterwards, for a number of reasons, but if only she’d described it in more detail to me, the whole experience would have been a lot easier.

      • This is in reply to Adawells description re vaginal ultrasound.

        I live in Southern CA of USA. I’ve had several vag ultrasounds; both in hospital and in outpatient clinic. Basically, what is done here is similar to what you experienced. However, we aren’t allowed to watch the screen during the exam. This is why I insist my husband is present, over the vocal and pressuring objections of the female techs. I’ve found the female techs performing these to be the most nasty of all so-called professionals I’ve encountered in the taking-care-of-vagina business. At different facilities, they hated my husband being there, and tried to physically block him from entering. Or tried to give him paperwork thinking that would be the distraction that would leave him in the waiting room.

        I stripped waist down, and was given the usual fabric tent to drape over myself while the tech looked and reached underneath… I was told to lay on my back with knees up and spread apart. No stirrups, but might as well have there anyway as I was in same position.

        The statement made that only 2 inches of the probe goes inside the vagina is wrong, wrong, and WRONG!! The entire thing eventually end ups inside during the 10-15 minute procedure. That is how the cervix, uterus, bladder, rectum, and ovaries are viewed (the wand is rotated 360 degrees or swept back & forth to capture all angles). Further, at times it’s briefly eye-watering painful when the probe is pressed to one side (also stretching my labia) while viewing the ovaries. The transducer CANNOT image if ONLY 2 inches inside! My husband looked at me, exaggerating his open eyes after it was “inserted” all way in. The painful splits I departed with reminded me days later how thoroughly I was probed. I was not allowed to watch this myself (neither on the screen nor peeking under the cover), and the tech again tried to limit anything my husband could see. At least she told me it would be (the standard wording) “uncomfortable.”

        The probe can and is used on virgins. It’s thin, longer than six inches, but the oblong transducer head is over an inch in diameter. Different sized transducers are used too. Afterward, I was sore inside. Along with the loose plastic cover are the gobs of anti-microbial KY lube. And I also personally note the “anti-microbial” will upset the natural bacterial balance of your vagina while irritating tissues.

        Adawells, I know you would not intentionally mislead us. However, it’s a shame the women we trust in helping us through invasive, painful, humiliating, and PTSD producing procedures knowingly and deliberately lie to us. All in order to smilingly herd us through, making us more compliant and willing to recommend this to our friends.

        The way we’re singled out, separated from our loved ones (support), and again not given informed consent (lied to, not truthfully told what will happen) to what will be done inside the most sensitive part of our bodies, constitutes yet another, of the violations extending from the vaginal (pelvic) exam. Carried out by a sister we should be able to trust. It pisses me off. And it’s unfair to our husbands who end up having to deal with the stress, anger, and pain we take home to our marital beds.

      • Hi Cat&Mouse, thank you for adding further information about the ultrasound process. Your experience sounds quite horrific, and I am well aware that a lot of women have found it a very painful experience. I did my homework and did check out women’s experiences online before going. I’m not recommending it to anyone, simply explaining what happened to me in response to a question. I forgot to mention that I also had an abdominal scan as well at this appointment, because further abnormalities were discovered. I think that with both these scans put together to make up the general picture, maybe the vaginal scanner did not have to be used so aggressively, as it was in your case. The purpose of the scan was to measure the endometrial thickness, and the fact that mine was well over 3x the limit for a postmenopausal woman, meant that I then had to go on to a curettage and hysteroscopy, which finally resulted in my recent hysterectomy for cancer. I don’t recommend any gynaecological procedures, but I’m just letting women know that you don’t need to get naked for this, and that some HCPs are respectful and kind, (not many, but a few are), and I got lucky having this lady to do it for me.

    • Hi Victoria, I haven’t read the FAQ sheet from the Eve Appeal, but I know this charity covers all of the 5 gynae cancers a woman can get. I’m early 50’s and 3 weeks post -op from a total hysterectomy for womb cancer. I’ve been doing some research into whether smear tests would have found this out earlier for me, as these charities are still pushing smear tests as the cure all for all women’s gynae problems.
      The first symptoms of womb cancer, if you are post-menopause, are slight spotting, pink coloured mucus when wiping with toilet tissue, or occasional droplets of blood in your panties, but hardly all the time, these came and went. I’d go for 6 weeks, when it was completely clear, so a smear test taken during this time is likely to have shown nothing. I might well have gone away thinking all was well, and delayed further action until, maybe the next smear test. What drove me to finally take action was a large flood of blood, which occurred one day at work. I got a GP appointment 2 days later, where GP took vaginal swabs (since I refused a smear test), and these also turned out negative, because what had fallen out had already gone. With womb cancer, the discharge falls out and is only transiently inside the vagina. The only time a smear test might have showed up that something wasn’t quite right was if one was done at the exact same time as a droplet of blood was coming out of the cervix, or if the womb cancer was at an advanced stage and had now spread outside of the womb, when there would only be about 50% survival by this stage. In my case I usually only got the specks of blood, when passing a stool, because, I think, a full bowel must press on the womb and force a little bit of the inflammation out as you empty the bowel, and let’s face it, smear tests are never done at this time!

      Also, a smear test might have been taken just before my symptoms started last year. Being over 50, I would not be due for another smear test for another 5 years, by which time the womb cancer would have probably spread and killed me. IMO it is downright dangerous to rely on smears for anything. Those women who cling to them that they are saving their lives are fools.

      I did have one woman tell me that I must regret not having smear tests, when I was found to have womb cancer, and I launched into a lecture, that smears do not find other gynae cancers, and may even give the false impression that all is well, and delay treatment. The lack of knowledge that nurses and even doctors have about smear testing, is the reason the programme has gone unchallenged for so long, and I often think this is deliberate.

      • Ada, this doesn’t apply to your case but post-menopausal hormone replacement therapy such as estrogen can cause the exact same symptoms. Also in younger women some birth control such as depo-provera can cause heavy irregular bouts of bleeding. I also recall having a discussion with a woman who began having her periods at a very young age, and we both suspected it may have been a result of Kentucky Fried chicken setting up shop in her town (which she loved and ate almost every day). Chicken is pumped full of estrogen, and this possibly could cause premature menstruation, as well as irregular bleeding. I also had a bout of irregular bleeding in between periods some time ago, but as soon as I cut out chicken from my diet the irregular bleeding resolved. Not sure if the chicken was the cause, but it was an interesting experiment.

      • Several cancer cells make certain proteins. Some of these are used in diagnostic blood tests. I should think that research should be focused on detecting these proteins rather that promoting fancier Pap tests.

        Women are always told to go to the doctor for “abnormal bleeding” or “painful intercourse”. The abnormal bleeding can have very many causes. Not every women has regular sex and some even do not have penis in vagina sex at all. Ultrasounds are cheap and they could be done for some women if a problem is suspected. I find that they are routinely done for women who might be pregnant though.

      • adawells, it may llok like a friend of mine was cheated by the NHS in the UK as she had the beginnings of ovarian cancer and she was told to have pap smear done every 6 motnhs. I told her that it wasn’t necessary, but she didn’t decline the tests. I believe the nurses took advantage of her health condition and fear so they could get closer to the target. I think I’m not wrong in my thinking.

      • Hi Jola, The health services think that pap smears are the answer to everything, and they don’t really know what they are doing when they tell women to have all these smears. They are just covering their backs, in case it does blow up into something major, and then they can say that did all these smears, but it delays getting the right treatment, if you ask me.

        On your previous post about Poland trying to make it the law that women have these medical exams, this goes against the human rights which all EU citizens have, and Poland is a member of the EU. It should have the same human rights as other EU member states, and Polish citizens have the right to refuse this kind of medical treatment the same as the rest of the EU citizens. Poland could be taken to the European Court of Justice, by it’s own citizens for breaking the EU Human Rights charter.

        The problem we have in the UK is that although we have the choice to decline smears, the NHS gives doctors a big financial incentive to reach an 80% screening target, so this puts 80% of women under huge pressure to get screened by their doctors, thus taking away their free choice. Screening levels are currently at about 78% nationally, and still falling. If this falls to about 70% the programme may fold up completely, as it would not be cost effective to run, and the number of lives saved by the programme would not equal those not attending for screening at all, which is the big raison d’etre of the programme. This is currently being debated in our government right now, but with HPV testing on the horizon, I think the pro-screeners will drag this out, until the programme is overhauled by HPV as the primary test, and by the first cohorts of vaccinated women entering screening age.

  65. Discussing adenocarcinoma, this the cancer that starts in the glandular tissue cells of the inner cervix, inside the cervical opening, the os which leads to the uterus. It is not the same as the squamous cell carcinoma of the outer cervix that is what the Pap test was originally developed for.

    It can be the same strain of virus that infects the outer cervix that can cause cancer in the inner cervix. This is why I believe that using the brush during a Pap test is wrong. Further more any Pap test result with “atypical glandular cells” is about the inner cervix cells. They are only one layer thick so any HPV infection is going to trigger that Pap test response. One layer thick on the outer cervix would only give a ASCUS or cin1 result. So a “atypical glandular cell” result on a Pap test means a colposcopy and a biopsy (endocervical curretage). This is essentially putting a miniature cheese grater in to the cervical os to scrape off cells which I cannot believe is anything more to be damaging and promoting the spread of HPV infection and cancer cells beyond.

    As for the poor English model who died, she probably had nutritional deficiencies so she could not fight off the HPV infection. She was extremely thin.

    Abuse does happen to many children. It is not reason to subject them to more trauma by giving them invasive tests for cancer. Survivors of abuse and sexual assaults are people who avoid medical exams or have an excess of psychosomatic illness.

    The problem is with the Pap test method itself. There are proteins that cancer produces and these should be the basis of all testing. The excuse is that it is too expensive to develop the technology and test it.

Comments are closed.