A recent news article in CBC brought gynecology down to an all-time low. Two U.S. gynecologists spoke up about wanting to legalize a “milder” form of female genital mutilation (FGM) for immigrants. The gynecologists argue that allowing legalized “pricking or nicking of the clitoris” of young girls could offer a compromise against more invasive practices that are considered normal in other countries, such as removal of external genitalia or sewing up the vaginal opening.
The gynecologists claim that legalizing a mild form of FGM will help to bring the practice above ground, and prevent more invasive and traumatic procedures from taking place.
The gynecologists liken the clitoral “nicking” to male circumcision and to cosmetic procedures such as labiaplasty. They also suggest renaming the procedure to something less emotive by calling it “female genital alteration” rather than “female genital mutilation”.
This isn’t the first time an argument in support of “mild” FGM has been made. In 2010 the American Academy of Pediatrics proposed legalizing a “clitoral nick”, but retracted their statement following a contentious reception of the proposal.
The gynecologists’ argument is concerning for a few reasons; number one being the fact that they might stand some chance of getting their way. Despite the obviously ludicrous proposal to legalize a medically unnecessary, life altering, barbaric practice; the gynecologists have spun their argument in a way that could be viewed by some as altruistic:
- They have reframed the issue by claiming they could prevent potentially greater harm
- They have attempted to trivialize the “mild” form of FGM by likening the procedure to male circumcision
- They have attempted to normalize it by proposing to rename it female genital “alteration” rather than “mutilation”
- They have further reframed the issue by claiming that by not legalizing FGM we are being “culturally insensitive and supremacist and discriminatory towards women”.
Also concerning is the consideration of who stands to gain and who stands to lose if such a proposal passed legislation. Those in support of legalizing the practice would stand to gain a great deal of business. Gynecologists have been losing business lately due to research that highlights the potential harms, over-diagnosis, over-treatment and futility of many gynecological practices (e.g. pap tests and pelvic exams). If FGM was legalized, gynecologists would be first in line with their pricking instruments and anticipating follow-up exams and treatments. The deck is stacked heavily in favor of those with power.
Canadian Ob-Gyns offer some much needed sanity by stating that FGM is a “harmful practice and a violation of girls’ and women’s rights to life, physical integrity, and health”, and reiterate that “performing or assisting in female genital cutting is a criminal offense in Canada”. The 989 comments expressing outrage under the CBC news article also offer a glimpse into a saner, safer world than the one proposed by the U.S. gynecologists.
Sounds like a “minor castration.” I doubt they would be in favor of that.
PS-What would the argument for the minor castration be, “we’ll just take a nick off?” How many men would support this?
It’s nice to see you Cindy 🙂 Exactly, just how many men would support a “nick off” if we were discussing a penis? Actually, nicking or pricking a clitoris would be the equivalent of chopping off the entire penis. All sensation, gone.
This just shows the hatred of women pervades everything. I can not believe anyone would support this in any way. Its disgusting. Shall we lessen pther crmies agai st women as well?
-sigh- so the ones who claim to do everything they do because they care about the health of females are now SUPPORTING this barbaric practice? The ones who study and make the health of women their profession are now ok with this atrocious injustice? What’s next? It will be considered legal only if the child is brought to a gyno to have it done professionally??? There are times when words simply fail me…this is one of those times /facepalm
Well, isn’t that what happens now with other things? I’d imagine that they would be pretty quick to do this to girls from other cultures “in order to be sensitive/compliant to other cultures.” See, if other people aren’t doing it, that’s somehow oppressive to them- whoever they are.
When we consider the history of the practices invented by Marion Simms, the so-called “father” of gynecology, this does not surprise me. Gynecology is the most misogynistic practice invented and designed at a time when men were beginning to lose their grip and control over women, socially and economically due to the advent of equality and civil liberties. Gynecology was a compromise for these men within a patriarchal medical culture – the last vestiges of male privilege. This is a way of appeasing the BME communities whilst also lining their pockets and keeping control of women at the same time. Here in the UK, the authorities took a similar view to these gynecologists with regard to FGM until very recently, only imposing a legal duty on authorities to report the practice. Unbelievable!
Wow this is absolutely fucking disgusting. Pardon my language, but I think some dirty words are the lesser of evils. And comparing it to circumcision, MALE genital mutilation, like that justifies it? Both should be banned and punished! Our bodies are designed a certain way for a reason. Removing or altering healthy tissue, male OR female, ESPECIALLY an unconsenting child or infant, is so plain stupid and cruel that I can’t even think of less simplistic terms to use. When I can’t think of big words, you know I’m pissed. NOTHING justifies mutilating a child. Not “science”; the word has no real meaning besides the study of how things work, and any connotations of unbiased facts are given only by the biased greedy corporate whitecoats. “Religion” and “culture” are no excuse either. I’m all for adhering to traditions when they speak to your identity, but no tradition should be to shed the blood of a child for any aesthetic or societal reason. It’s sick.
Well, this is absolutely disgusting.
I did read this article also, earlier this week. So much has been done in the last 20 years or so to bring attention to genital mutilation. These gynecologists in these other countries are bowing to global outrage ad pressure, but still arrogantIy want to find a way to do this that they think is acceptable. According to articles I’ve ready, this was originally started to control women…to keep them from cheating on their husbands…never mind the husbands that cheat already. They do it to girls thinking it won’t hurt them..how sick and perverted. The women drag their daughters to get this done, by the way…as it was done to to them as girls. They are as brainwashed as the women dragging their daughters to get pelvics in the U.S. I remember under the Clinton administration, a woman from Africa was given asylum in the U.S. as she was trying to escape this. It was incredible at the time and it opened America’s eyes to what has been going on abroad to women in other countries. Alot has been done to save women, but the cultures out there treat women like property – still, which is why this discussion even goes on. And, I’m more than certain that these are male gynecologists. Sorry if I sound like a broken record, but it’s true – they are the one’s that perpetuate this….is it no wonder a number of females gynecologists feel so forced to go along…that’s why it’s so worth it to support the females and find one with an open mind…in the hopes of driving the male gynecologists who perpetuate this perversion – eventually out. Unfortunately, it may be slower to come by in foreign countries.
What bothers me is all their open talk in that article naming the clitoris, et. al . It’s abhorrent that the media feels so free to talk about women’s genitals. Keeping to the words female, genital, and mutilation should be enough. I don’t think there’s ever been a time in the 20th century that the word “vagina” has been thrown around so much…the word “breast” is tied for first…and for the “oh, it’s the 21st century” journalists, they throw out the words labia and clitoris in periodicals as easily as they might say the word – water. We talk about women’s parts here because we’re on a women’s site. However, talking about women’s parts so graphically outside of women’s sites really is disrespectul. Male journalists will talk about women’s parts much faster than men’s. I go to Google alot. Just about every daily Health news section includes the word breast; a picture of breasts in pink bra; a picture of a partially clothed woman getting a mammogram; even an x-ray of a breast (no X-rays of penises). They are very fond of breast feeding pictures (especially “Yahoo” health…with a fully exposed breast…no modesty (guess they figure with a baby being attached it’s okay…no comparision to pornography ..because of the attached baby..(I’m sure men watching see it as porno)…(whatever happened to calling it by the respectful name…”nursing”…but hey it’s the 21st century.)…and until recently, pelvic exam pictures were a common thing on Google news. Since Google enacted the “forget me” policy, these have largely disappeared, especially with the uproar over pelvic exams and male gynecologists being convicted of sexual misconduct (the most recently sensational story was about Nikita Levy…who was a coward and killed himself before he could be brought to trial).
Their focus is now on the breast. Even if we pretend that the media is only trying to destimulate women’s parts for the purest of reasons, there’s no balance with talking about men’s parts by their actual names or even commonly showing a man in a hospital gown getting examined (from the back, just like the mammograms…), which makes the fact that this is none other than exploitation of women…using medical stories and skin care ads…very clear. I don’t see on the internet or medical daytime tv shows…you know the one…the words penis and testicle thrown around, nearly as much. Truth be told, it really is vulgar and needs to be scaled back to general terms (genitals, lady parts, “feminine” problems, nursing,..just as instead of using the words penis or testicle,, the term erectile dysfunction covers all), for the sake of – not going back to the 19th century, but for the sake of decency. If anyone else is complaining, it’s not being heard.
May these gynecologists be met with enough international uproar to eventually – stop this practice. There are some international gynecologists that actually do good – like heal women with vaginal fistulas…still wish it were women ob/gyn’s though…..Despite everything, let’s be blessed.
Why doesn’t this surprise me? Great opportunity to get some new business in the waiting room. (particularly with more women refusing pelvic exams, pap tests & breast exams)
I think female genital mutilation is almost a sport around the world, I consider the fact about 77% of women have had something “done” to their cervix is another form of female mutilation. Consider the fact few women consent to pap testing, it’s expected of us and often the test is forced onto women (coercion) also, cervical cancer has always been fairly rare.
Yet we call this widespread damage to women, physically and psychologically, a huge success story, for whom?
IMO, FGM is about control of women, removing the clitoris means no/little sexual excitement, sewing up the area means controlling who has access…it’s part of viewing women as property, something others control…that’s the way I see it.
It’s not just FGM though, here in Australia I often hear the AMA and others talk about women like they’re second class citizens, mere bodies. It smacks of the need for control too…
Until there is some respect for women and the female body, I don’t see things changing and that has to be demanded, these people won’t suddenly start respecting women. Women in third world countries face numerous hurdles, simply staying alive is a challenge for many…avoiding a pregnancy every year, finding clean water, enough to eat etc.
While those at the top talk of targets, are rewarded for reaching targets, practice coercion, do not respect choice, our legal rights/informed consent etc. and can even operate without consent itself…the abuse of women will continue here and overseas.
My younger sister was mutilated, an excess cone biopsy, after an excess colposcopy/biopsy and before that a pap test with no informed consent, even consent itself is questionable, “all women really MUST have pap testing”…that doesn’t sound like an attempt to properly inform to me.
They moan about unscreened women, boast about lives saved, but have no concern for the huge numbers left worse off thanks to this testing.
I’m certainly not making light of FGM, but I see it as another example of the abuse of women and the female body.
That this is done to so many women around the world frankly sickens me constantly. As well it should.
That more and more women are standing up and saying this, as you have:
I consider the fact about 77% of women have had something “done” to their cervix is another form of female mutilation.
THAT heartens me!
This is the second time they come up with that convoluted idea, the same recommendation was made some years ago by the American Academy of Pediatrics. It shows that lots of doctors, and surely lots of gynecologists are a bunch of morally bankrupt crooks and the field has long been a nest of twisted minds operating with a shiny cover of pretending that women needed their own doctors to monitor their genital organs. This reminds me of how doctors, not so long ago, made advertisement for cigarettes.
Now they’re saying it should be acceptable to do a “minor” mutilation, tomorrow they’ll say if it’s inevitable, and it needs to be done by a specialist, which is, them. The original article in Daily Mail stated that they compared it to dental work like orthodontia! Orthodontia and dental work in general is to rectify a problem, not to create one, and it’s not done according to a specific 3rd world backward culture, what a bunch of dishonest quacks.
The intended actions speak loudly. The words are carefully crafted as camouflage.
It’s really important to start taking apart their discourse – to look at what their words disguise.
What would their actions be, stripped bare of the camouflage?
A few more accurate ways of describing their actions include:
For-profit sexual mutilation of girls
Commercialized sexual mutilation of girls
Policy prescribed, legally approved sexual mutilation of girls
As Miso99 noted – this isn’t the first time this has been proposed. Lest the 2 Gynecologists who proposed to sanction a fee-for service child sexual mutilation service be written off as a couple of “radicals”, good to remember the very recent past.
In May 2010, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) revised a 1998 policy and their Committee on Bioethics wrote, “It might be more effective if federal and state laws enabled pediatricians to reach out to families by offering a ritual [clitoral] nick as a possible compromise to avoid greater harm.”
An ETHICS committee for the Academy representing the medical profession’s branch specializing in children actually said this. Seriously. This really happened. Look it up.
The policy direction was withdrawn following a huge public backlash, but that doesn’t change the fact that AAP policy makers, with input from their experts on ethics, were effectively proposing changes to legislation to allow for-profit child sexual mutilation.
Oh, and the same policy revision also included another example of words being used to disguise the proposed actions – The AAP 2010 policy revision included changing the term “female genital mutilation” in its 1998 policy to “female genital cutting”.
Brainwashing involves reprogramming, and that requires words that can fool people. Take apart the words, keep looking at the actions. The Pap Test Industry talks about choice, but acts with deception and coercion. The Pap Test Industry talks about women’s health, but acts to enforce over testing that funnels women into avoidable and tragic harms.
My guess is that we haven’t seen the last attempt to legalize the sexual mutilation of young girls using a fee-for service model. The predatory and profit margins are too appealing for some to resist.
My guess is that next time they will approach the change using a better strategy.
My guess is that next time they will first put out some papers that talk about the harms to children who aren’t getting access to the benefits of cultural genital enhancement procedures. The campaign will likely include a few posters of unhappy looking women who say they don’t fit in the way their friends do, all because the US won’t allow them to get the same medical benefits they could get in their country of origin. The campaign will likely include a few celebrities talking about how much better their lives are because they were able to get the beneficial cultural genital enhancement procedures.
Isn’t it interesting that they generally have no problem with these girls getting abortions or birth control without their parents knowing anything, but they don’t figure that these girls have a right to choose if they get mutilated by others? Supposing a parent were to force a tattoo on one of their kids- would this be abuse? Of course. Just demonstrating dynamics, not trying to have a “False Boyd Cycle” (“Fantasize Observe Orient Decide Act” instead of the regular OODA Loop)- like when someone says “What if a bad guy did that?” when someone else makes a point in favor of circumventing or reciprocating abuse.
I have to say: the fantasy angle seems to be very common in medicine. Some entirely different situation with different conditions is presented for mental projection & then patterning actions in the matter at hand AS IF it’s the other situation.
This site shares a lot of useful information, particularly on the utility of the PAP smear, that I have been thinking about for the past several years. I gather most of you are in the U.K. — I live in the U.S., in New York City — and it’s been an eye-opener to learn that although your system is less zealous about PAP smears than gynecologists in the U.S. (a recently posted stat on this site had average lifetime smear count at 14 for women in the United Kingdom vs. 48 — forty-f88king–eight!!–in the states), the tactics, profit motives, undue interest in sexual shaming, and dirty tricks are the same. More importantly for those who’ve been over-treated, the damage is the same, physically and mentally, isn’t it?
Before I knew the full story, I was over-treated (c. age 26-27, as many women are), and it began with an exam that I’d booked at an “all-natural” midwife center, of all places! I booked my exam there precisely because I’d been told, over and over again, that their gynecology services were truly women-centered and delivered by women, for women, with our best health and interests in mind. What bull-puckey. I had my first “abnormal” PAP in my life, and the clinician rushed to book me for a biopsy that was to be done by a friend of hers before the HPV tests and other information even came back from the lab! I was told that regardless of the result, I’d need a cervical biopsy, that it was quick, inexpensive, and wouldn’t hurt a bit. This was a pack of sheer lies, as it turned out. As I was uninsured, the procedure cost one THOUSAND dollars in U.S. dollars, hurt like hell, was delivered by a crass, rough woman who like most in the “genital and purity inspection” field believed that women’s lives revolve around preventing pregnancy until it’s time to get pregnant, and the damage done that day extended far beyond the night after the procedure. In fact, the scarring it caused made every menstrual period hell for 4 years and vaginal stimulation of any kind (including with a pinky finger!) painful for nearly the same length of time, which all but destroyed my relationship with my now-spouse. And that’s not even touching the psychological damage, wherein for years I alternated between feeling dirty for being q*eer and feeling like I was going to die of some horrible disease any time now.
What led me to research the PAP, oddly enough, was not this site, but instead, the freelance writing work I was doing in the LGBT community. One of my specialties was HIV/AIDS, and I just happened to pitch a story about rare anal and genital conditions in HIV+ patients, especially those whose CD4 counts are below 250. (This is the blood cell count, and levels below 250+ indicates the person is moving from HIV+ to AIDS-related conditions that result from immunodeficiency…I mention because it is critical to our understanding of the PAP and its purpose as a diagnostic.) As it turns out, in the early 1990s, an AIDS task force in the U.S. recommended anal pap smears for all gay men, and cervical PAP smears for all women diagnosed as HIV+ and whose CD4 counts had dropped below a certain level. The regular smears were recommended for these populations because they essentially had little to no immune systems at all and were thus at risk for rapid-onset infections and cancers that didn’t typically affect the rest of the population. HIV was usually still called AIDS in 1992 instead of the more optimistic language we use in 2016, where combination antiretroviral therapies have transformed “dying of AIDS” into “living HIV+”, but some patients lived for several years or more with low CD4 counts. In sum, it was common knowledge as recently as 1992 that cancers caused by HPV were very rare, and, like Kaposi’s Sarcoma (aka those dark, blotchy spots you tend to see in movies about people dying of AIDS), are found almost exclusively among severely immuno-compromised populations. You can see how quickly the U.S. ob/gyn-industrial complex twisted this recommendation into something vital for healthy teens and 20-something women who are at the lowest risk of any group for developing such conditions.
Today, I consider the procedure I had forced on me (and I say “forced” because I did not give INFORMED consent) to be nothing short of socially and legally sanctioned genital mutilation. As I learn more about other types of mutilation endorsed in my country — male infant circumcision, particularly as it is done in NYC-based Orthodox communities, a procedure I won’t describe as it is nauseating and should render those providing it fit for prison, but for those interested, look up “circumcision and syphillis” and consider whether you have a strong enough stomach for the way mohels (the guys who circumcise in that faith) are abusing these infants — I realized that the inmates are running the asylum, and the sex-negative, woman-hating (people-hating!) a-holes have won, at least in the short term. All of these types of genital mutiliation were developed with the idea of instilling fear, compliance, and shame toward one’s natural sexual urges. Even a so-called “normal” infant male circumcision delivered in a hospital setting destroys sexual functioning and sensitivity.
And the pressuring tactics around PAPs in my country have gotten entirely out of control. The lies are simply shameful. Even the LEAST invasive cervical biopsies can destroy sexual/menstrual functioning and cause pain for years, and the more invasive procedures can cause them for life. All types of cervical-based genital mutilation have contributed to making my country home to hospitals that boast c-section rates upwards of 60%, as they fill the cervix with scar tissue that impedes normal labor and in many cases, cause cervical stenosis, which narrows the opening, preventing safe and relatively painless passing of even small amounts of menstrual blood and tissue, let alone a small skull. (As recently as the 90s, many obstetricians considered 2-3% to be the medically accepted norm for c-section rates.) As the U.S. medical model remains almost entirely market- and profit-based, even in our post-“universal healthcare” (ha!) landscape, and the nation’s social mores are controlled by an elite group of ideologically hidebound, women-hating, sex-negative authoritarians, the information I’ve found on this site no longer surprises me. It instead confirms what I’ve suspected for years: that the relentless focus on “well-woman care” (another wonderful euphemism; in this case, code for “p*ssy and tits”) reduces women down to their sexual/reproductive organs, and in the process, harms and kills tens of thousands yearly.
I have a suspicion that it’s a Germanic thing. Anglo-Saxon countries seem to all pull this same type of shit & so does Germany. There’s been A LOT of influx from Germany over the decades in America. In the Revolutionary War, there was a lot of German influence over the American Regulars (the army, not the guerrilla fighters that always get the spotlight). After that, they were nutty for all things Prussian. After that, they imported lots of Nazis after World War II (even though they were largely scientists, they might very well have had a philosophical effect from their background reasoning on things- how someone sizes up reality
Not trying to make things out to be a chemical equation or anything, just figure there’s likely some cultural themes that pervade. I notice that “thinking by adjudication” is so common in America that it’s like background noise- even though people frequently mock “reality is what I say it is” thinking. I figure this at least applies when they do something & present it as something else
As a constant thing there’s the theme of “the bird is flown, the fish is swum”- under that reasoning, the person is lived. That concept is all-pervasive in numerous countries, but America likes to cite all the freedoms someone has on paper while the act like this.
It might be. I am descended from different cultures. The Protestant mindset says that cultures descended from Latin America, the horn of Africa, and the Mediterranean basin are all emotional and hysterical but I don’t agree. And I never felt the WASP way of dealing with things (“We don’t DO emotion,” “Look how controlled and logical I am,” “The [intentionally distorted] evidence SAYS you MUST…”) was a fit for my life. Thing is, I am quite a logical person. The only people who’ve claimed otherwise were those with personality disorders who hate how I don’t buy their glib lies so they can profit. Logic, for me, means that I like to have all the facts at hand — not “cherry picked, limited-selection facts to produce a preferred outcome”, which is something altogether different — before making my decision.
I would just like to say thank you – that was a fantastic post.
Hope you don’t mind me asking but have you thought of using your skills as a freelance writer to bring this issue to the fore?
Many of us are trying to get the message out in order to drip feed more and more women with the correct information so that there will be an increase in the number of those declining this “programme”.
Whenever I can, I try to post comments on articles regarding “women’s health” which is full of mercilessly crass and militant women loudly decrying those who refuse to be screened and pontificating and judging those who won’t screen as lazy, reckless, ignorant, immoral and the like.
Ali in nuclear, I’m in the Us too. I’m thertyone and never had a Pap smear. The reason for me was it didn’t seem right and the way it is pushed at woman is disturbing. I only see a walkin clinic if I feel sick. I personally do not want to go looking for problems with my female organs just CB I’m a woman. And I know my body . Woman lived years before papa and all the sudden they come out and were “told” we desperately need them for good health.
I’ve needed healthcare for an autoimmune disorder for years. As has my spouse. The way that “bikini medicine” and Puritan shaming culture-medicine refuses to focus on anything unless it’s related to SEX or “mental illness,” their little label for saying “No you may NOT” — and this goes triple for you if in the LGBT community by the way — has led us to be leaving our 30s with ill health. Decades of time wasted, feeling horrible, all because an industry is obsessively focused on what we do with our sex organs. What amazing medicine we have in the U.S.! Is it not the envy of the entire world?
Hi Ali. Welcome to the site I’m glad you found us. This site is fantastic. I can not describe how much it has helped me. I hope it helps you too. Our respective governments and medical doctors have all colluded in this scandal. It has been a huge criminal undertaking to do this to women. I think as more women wake up to what has been done there will be a huge backlash.
We wouldn’t mind as much if they offered cervcial screening to us as a choice and given out the risk levels for us to decide. Instead they have run it as a operation of forced mass rape.
Since Paps invention they colluded to examine the genitals of all women every where. They new the test was unreliable so by go ahead with it they have behaved in a criminal manner.
My friend who refuses paps was told last week by her practice nurse you can catch HpV from running your hand along stair rails if some one who has it has touched it before you?????
There is no depths to which these creatures will sink. She has written to her doctor. I have read the letter it is brilliant. Very funny and sarcastic.
Thanks, I like the site a lot. About that “you can catch HPV from the banister” stat: it has occurred to me that many of the false positive results generated from smears may in fact be caused by injuries incurred during the exam. Many women (1 in 4 or 1 in 5) have a retroverted cervix; it is very common among women with small pelvises, and those who report that initial sexual experiences hurt. I found that smears as done in the U.S. don’t take this into account, and never listen to a woman who asks the examiner to go slow and use the small-size speculum. As others have experienced, they laugh at you and basically tell you to f–k off and then go shove whatever size instrument they have on hand into you, without even bothering to check the angle of insertion. This “technique” (hahaha, as if skill and care are used, right?) results in pain, discharge, and bleeding, all of which on their own are enough to distort a result, and that’s not even taking into account the fact that this test is highly unreliable, especially for women under 30,
The meddling United Fascist States of America appears to be outraged and jealous of nations like Denmark that aren’t as into genital mutilation and monitoring as their Yankee friends on the other side of the Atlantic. Get a load of this horse-hay: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/uncircumcised-boys-may-have-foreskin-problems_us_5706919ce4b0b90ac2717b68
BULL! It’s clear no one doing these studies about “foreskin problems” have EVER spoken to actual HIV/AIDS researchers, who will tell you quickly that whether or not one is circumcised has no bearing on HIV transmission, and will also have the decency to point out that in countries where HIV transmission is prevalent, circumcising infants and children (especially the girls, especially the way it is done) leads to MORE infection, not less. It is also shocking how many Americans believe that young children are so dirty that they must be “washed down there” in a violent manner, all because of their Puritanical obsession with (eliminating) sex. The most efficient way to spread HIV is by shared-needle IV drug use, and in descending order from there: needle sticks from HIV+ patient, unprotected anal sex (receiving partner contracts), unprotected vaginal sex (again, receiving partner contracts), and hell, even dental work with unsterilized needles is higher on this list by a large margin than “not being circumcised.” This is the male equivalent of yearly PAP smears and forced cervical mutilation surgeries, make no mistake about that.
But anyone who thinks like this is basing their decisions solely around a desire to punish children, a fear of failing at conformity, or both. First off, if you have a young child and are planning all your decisions around what they will be like at 18, 20, 25, whatever (make daughter get regular PAP assaults lest she be unclean, rip son’s foreskin off lest uninformed losers laugh at him or he, oh noes, not look like Dad in the locker room!), you are sick in the head. Secondly, when dealing with anyone, but especially young children and infants, it is not necessary to violently scrub under the foreskin with soap — or around the vulva in the same fashion — the way so many idiot Americans think is right. This kind of thinking contributes, all by itself, to far more infections and other medical horrors than leaving well enough alone. Thirdly, American medical “experts” have no business waxing rahpsodical on ANY condition involving “medically abnormal” genitals, including hypospadias, since until as recently as the past ten years, almost ALL children with even the most MINOR flaws “down there” were “treated to” life-ruining surgeries, usually a minimum of 2-3, which can be studied in detail on any American intersex rights website. Boys and girls, both. Go have a look. Make sure you are in an okay place emotionally; the stories are heartbreaking and will be on your mind for the rest of the day.
Let’s be honest here: This country is full of sick people, people dying early, women dying young of heart attacks because “health care” for our gender = “cervical inspection w/ mandatory genital mutilation for 20%.” Notice cardiovascular health for WOMEN was not even on the table as a topic until “Obamacare” went into effect, and that was only because changing the payment model so doctors are only rewarded for good outcomes FORCES them to admit that the #1 killer of women is HEART ATTACKS, whereas cervical “issues” don’t even make the list!. The U.S.’s shameful so-called leaders should not attempt to meddle in the ways of other countries or dictate the proper procedures and thought leadership in ANY way, shape or form!!
By the way…I am posting this NOT to take the light off the far more medically damaging types of female circumcision but to illustrate how the U.S. thinks about such issues, in the hopes that more women in my own country will take a long, hard look at the genital/sexual monitoring-industrial complex passing for healthcare in this country and do the research for themselves.
For casual readers who may be on the fence, please do some research. Both male and female circumcision are far more damaging than originally portrayed, ditto cervical mutiliation after an inaccurate PAP. None create or preserve health in any form. All must be held up as the human rights violations they are by any nation that values the rights of women and children.
…Of course, the U.S. hates children once they are born and has a long and storied history of women-hating. But it is 2016 and time to move into the 21st century, my “fellow” Americans!
When that happens, I don’t think they like the children BEFORE they’re born, either. It’s just that they don’t see it as “an extra mouth” until then- even if they aren’t the ones doing the feeding, it’s just less that they can have. It’s also something that takes attention away from them, which a narcissist feels way beyond contempt for.
Actually, a lot of things seem to trace pretty solidly to narcissism here. I still think the root of being narcissistic isn’t an ego addiction or feeling bad about themselves & compensating for it, though. I think it’s truly just instigatory antagonism- just being in “fuck you mode” right off the bat.
“When that happens, I don’t think they like the children BEFORE they’re born, either. It’s just that they don’t see it as “an extra mouth” until then- even if they aren’t the ones doing the feeding, it’s just less that they can have. It’s also something that takes attention away from them, which a narcissist feels way beyond contempt for.”
Alex, I am afraid you called it precisely here. What a shame for the children.
male circumcision is rape and female genital mutilation is also rape. please don’t be one sided.
“Rape” isn’t the right word. Since it’s mutilation and molestation, those words seem to be more apt.
eh, if you say loudly “rape” instead of “mutilation” and “molestation” then you will get more shock and awe, and more babies will be saved. So go away.
it could have been stated that studies show that male circumcision was harmful and unnecessary so therefore likening it to male circumcision is not any reason for support see savingsons.org
I totally agree. The problem is while we are angry about girls weve become brainwashed to believe its ok for boys. I was brought up in the Methodist faith and we don’t do anything to anyone but we are taught this is what Jewish and Muslim people do so we just accept it as religious practice. I personally don’t think it will ever end which is very sad. It must leave victims with a feeling anyone has rights over what happens to their body.
Also. The internet is totally electric with the fact NASA has been totally lying to us and they have never in fact been into space. Loads of their employees have come forward and said its all crap and there isnt even a space station. It was a massive conspiracy all along. Apparently there is some weird dome over us they cannot get past.
Its looking like Smear Tests have been nothing more than some bizarre satanic ritual all along. Which us probably what we suspected anyway.
Crap bag demons!!!
Haven’t heard that about NASA, myself. As for satanic RITUAL, I don’t know. Might be that there’s some “inspiration” from that general direction. I might be missing something, but please don’t go around saying that these things are a satanic ritual (it screws up credibility in most situations- although I have noticed that people that want to crawl into other people’s skin tend to make literal attempts & it’s hard to ignore the demonic possession parallels, whether the actual situation is believed to exist or not).
Hi Alex. Don’t worry I haven’t lost my mind. It was meant to be funny but I see it falls flat.
I’ve been really down lately and took a break from my writing but will get back on with it soon.
I still can’t get over that our new leaflets in the UK make it clear testing is a choice. It took the wind out of my sails a bit. But there is still a lot of work to be done to help our America, canadian and australian friends.
Hi Linda. The new leaflets in the UK do make it clear testing is a choice, but the rest of the leaflet contains propaganda. As others have stated, there is still a one-sided presentation of information designed to sway us towards screening. We only see opinions as stated by vested interests, and still no balanced, factual information. Still much work to be done!
I don’t know if telling Alex to go away was a good idea! Alex comments a lot. So here is more of my views: PIV is always rape, so when people say that saying things that don’t constitute with what someone’s definition of rape is (and our definition is given from the dictionary which is written by male supremacists by the way) then we won’t be able to extend the definition to include else. Also would like to say that mowing your lawn is rape because you are mutilating the grass, and the idea that babies can’t be raped unless they have a penis stuck in them is ridiculous and just masculinity trying to reassert who wins and who loses. Why can’t the grass grow to make a grassland? Think about it, you are all rapists. Repent of it.
“mowing your lawn is rape because you are mutilating the grass”. This is a joke, right? It’s trolls like you that discredit the validity of the comments and discussions on this site.
no it is not a joke, and I am not a troll, mowing the lawn is rape, you have no sense of the environmental damage of the incessant oil that is used to mow the lawn, the noise, the toxic chemicals sprayed in maintaining lawns. Let it return to a grassland and stop fucking up the world with your obsessive compulsive disorder. That’s exactly what mowing the lawn is, OCD, only you can’t be described as someone suffering from it when the system of patriarchy requires mowing of the lawn. How is it OCD? Because you have to always keep it the same height regardless. So Z, go away too.
in your little bubble that you live in, the idea of grassland is so foreign to you. if you let it grow it will return to a grassland and then destroy your house bc trees may land seeds there and then they would grow, become big trees, and their roots will crack through your pathetic house, tip over your car and crack the street in two. yup, the only reason you mow the lawn is to prevent nature from being nature. you are a parasite, an invasive species. and that’s why you mutilate your children, because you have to destroy everything in your path.
“It’s trolls like you that discredit the validity of the comments and discussions on this site.”
Damn right. Our side, the anti-PAP-rape side, is not supported by TPTB in many nations, and us being anti-circumcision is one big ol’ NO-NO according to them Powers in good ol’ ‘MURICA, F*CK YEAH! Which is why I urge those arguing against the gyno-industrial complex or any institution endorsing child abuse to avoid sarcasm, irony, or hyperbole, including so much as JOKING about tinfoil hats. We must be plainspoken and facts-focused if we are to thwart our enemies. Let them have the theatrics, the exaggerations, and the grand emotional displays.
“yup, the only reason you mow the lawn is to prevent nature from being nature. you are a parasite, an invasive species. and that’s why you mutilate your children, because you have to destroy everything in your path.”
This is the sort of cuckoo hysteria our side just doesn’t need. Thanks for serving as an example, sir. Since, per your worldview, every human being living today is sexually molesting the Earth, why do you not serve as an example by ceasing to exist, posthaste?
how does this not relate to women being forced to see the gynecologist, it’s certainly related, in your quest for dominating everything and violating everything in your path…
Sorry I was addressing “Z” who is the typical privileged male.
Defining sexual violence
Hello HumbleJewishMan. I allow my grass to grow and I never cut my lawn. I don’t use pesticides or strong cleaning detergents. I live in harmony with nature and have many birds and insects in my garden. I allow a wild bees nest to thrive and i sit next to it just watching them coming and going. I love what has been created for us by God. Be assured that many here on this site probably feel that way also. Tho on this site we are mostly concerned with the rights if individual to decide what happens to their bodies i’m sure we have issues with other things that are wrong with the world as well.
I was interested to read people are not supporting male circumcision here. Why exactly? It doesn’t impair the function at all, and as someone who unfortunately has many many years experience being prostituted in a brothel I know from thousands of events that the condoms can much more easily slip off if the man has a foreskin. The condom slides with the foreskin as it slides up and down the penis when he’s penetrating you but on a circumcised penis it stays in one place. I think the only time a condom has come off on a circumcised man in my experience is the ones that are really small and not erect trying to jam it in with a condom that’s really baggy on them, but with an uncircumcised man it can actually slip off despite being hard and the condom the right size. So I’m thinking that male circumcision is sensible. *shrug*
Maybe the brothel needs to buy better condoms and have seminars for the sex workers to know how to use them properly.
I don’t support male circumcision because it’s something done to an infant who is not able to say no. It is mutilation whether people want to admit it or not. It is not done for cleanliness or to prevent men from contracting disease, even though we’re told that’s a good reason to do it. There is no good reason to cut off a body part without someone’s consent…ever.
My husband is not circumcised and I prefer it that way. Condoms are the only form of birth control we ever use (aside from fertility awareness) and we have never had a problem with them slipping off or ripping, and we’ve certainly never gotten pregnant in the 9 years we’ve been together.
I vote for preserving bodily integrity. If a man wants to be circumcised, let him make that decision when he turns 18.
As a guy (that lives in America), I’m glad to hear a woman say something that isn’t disregardive toward a man. Most things kind of amount to “hack ’em off” or “who gives a shit?”
Alex, the women who say “hack it off, who gives a sh!t” are the very same ones screaming “how DARE you refuse the gallant gynecologist and his glorious offerings?!?!?!” ’til they are breathless and red in the face. They are the “patient advocates” who clamor for PAP rape — “MOAR MOAR MOAR!” they scream — and who pretend to be live and let live ’til the second their worldview is threatened, at which point, they rush to shut us up. If we are so deluded and cuckoo like they say, I wonder, why the rush — and why the “SHUT UP SHUTUP SHUTUPPPPPPPP!!!!” histrionics?
Yet, curiously, those nations with the lowest rates of HIV transmission, those countries with the lowest percentage of HIV-poz in their populace, are ALSO those nations that frown upon circumcision of male infants. Either those nations (many of them in Europe, FWIW) are providing some level of sex-ed instruction that is magical, indeed, or what you claim about condoms is simply not true. Based on what I know, having worked as a reporter specializing in the HIV/AIDS beat for a decade, and based on the fascinatingly scant rates of HIV transmission that occur when serodifferent male-male couples are forced to, gee, how can I put this, um USE CONDOMS OR DIE, I’m going to go with the latter option.
Frankly, I’m suspicious of your claims re: your profession, because where I’m from (NYC), even the lesbians like lil’ ol’ me know that a majority of sexually active male adults engaging in penetrative sex where they are the “giving” partner are using condoms all wrong, and that for most, this starts with a condom that is sized all wrong. The average size of the erect penis among American male adults is just over 5.5″ (not seven, not eight, and for f*ck’s sake, CERTAINLY NOT TEN inches!!). Yet, curiously, some of the most popular condom brands going today — Trojans, for starters — are sized as if the average American dong was just over 7″ at full-mast. That 1.6 inches of surplus is a dangerous difference, indeed; just ask any epidemiologist who isn’t a liar with an agenda.
On the other side of the scale, you have the fact that “extra-large” condoms on the American market are intentionally sized so as to NOT accommodate length much past 7″. Indeed, it is GIRTH, not length, that is added to these so-called “jumbo-size” condoms, so for the 10% of males whose stiffy at full-mast exceeds 7″ are sh*t outta luck, safety wise. All told, over half of all condom-reliant, sexually active male adults are failing to choose the correct size in prophylactic protection. Not intentionally, mind you — be it vanity, stupidity, or an interest in spreading disease to make The Powers That Be richer, ill-fitting options are simply what the market will bear, and is all that’s made available to these men.
Until 5 minutes ago, when a miniature of the copper loop non-hormonal IUD was made for the American market, similar tales were peddled across ‘MURICA, F*CK YEAH! about IUDs and the evidently prodigious numbers of unplanned pregnancies, brand-new HIV+ patients, and outta-thin-air Hep C cases they caused. “This is why IUDs are only suitable for monogamous, married women over 30 with 2+ live births,” the PAP-rape practitioners and their toadies groused. Yeah, no. The FACTS showed that for years, nulliparious, virgin teens across Europe had enjoyed IUDs as successful birth control devices, but the American media, hell-bent on swindling more women onto the Pill, would never be caught dead revealing that pesky lil’ stat. Most instead saw fit to pretend the horrors of the Dalkon Shield were of 21st century concern, rather than leaving that story in the decade it belongs: the 1970s.
Here’s the real story: Non-hormonal IUDs, with their decade-long shelf life once inserted, are a pill-peddler’s worst nightmare — and a PAP-rapist’s, too. An adult female patient in her prime reproductive years who makes herself available for PAP rape once a decade, MAX, instead of every 6–12 months, is subverting the entire gyno-industrial complex, if not life itself — and that JUST WON’T DO! Currently faced with the worst PR disaster since the Dalkon Shield itself, thanks to the sheer number of minor female teens — most all of them hardcore athletes, by the way — dropping dead from a DVT or stroke caused by the hormone in the mini-pill, Big Pharma is working overtime to shove women back in line. Few appreciate how hard they work to flood the mainstream media with “Women, U BEST STFU about bikini medicine in ALL FORMS, U CRAZY B*TCHES!” pieces like this trash from Jezebel (http://jezebel.com/5867139/new-fda-decisions-dont-mean-birth-control-is-killing-you ), which was the second in a series of 8 or so pieces ordering women to ignore our instincts and obey Big Pharma.
Verdict: As a fabulist, I rate you a 2/10, but as a storyteller, you are only a 1. Sorry.
Is there a way to promote men to use condoms ALL THE TIME PROPERLY (except when they are trying to procreate cooperatively with a woman) ?
Many women still have reasons to want the pill or an IUD for various reasons not just for contraception or as a backup to condoms.
Gynaecologists are deliberately tricking healthy women into unnecessary radical hysterectomies by fabricating they have cancer. This has been going on for decades, especially in the USA, Canada, Australia, the UK and much of the Western World and these unscrupulous, greedy doctors commit fraud and criminal malpractice throughout their corrupt careers and nobody gives a damn. These surgical atrocities against unsuspecting women MUST BE STOPPED!
Gynecologists have already removed over one-third (1/3rd) of the female sex organs in the US to date with hysterectomy/castration operations. Women are being tricked, lied to and conned into operating rooms where they lose all their rights and have no say in what is done to them. The more organs the gynecologists remove, the more money they make. $$ This is just another horrifying way for them to cash in.