3,978 comments

1. If one single woman can be saved by my story, all this agony those criminal doctors inflicted on me for personal gain will not be in vain…. Knowledge is power, and here in Australia 2 in 5 women will have a hysterectomy by the time she is 65. Ninety per cent are unnecessary and can do far more harm than good. Fabricating cancer is one of the dirty tricks gynaecologists use to frighten healthy women into unnecessary hysterectomies. Gynaecologists get very, very rich doing unnecessary hysterectomies…

   Here are some comments to my story……

   ……..MY HORROR STORY…….
   I was one of those lucky women who never suffered any gynaecological problems in the 58 years I had my precious female organs. I trusted the female doctor who did my yearly Pap smear (which she insisted I have every year, despite never, ever having abnormal cells). I did not know she was in cahoots with corrupt gynaecologists looking for easy prey to use for greed and training material. She forced me into seeing a gynaecologist writing that I had post-menopausal bleeding, which was a blatant lie, as I NEVER had a single drop of blood since my menopause finished 5 1/2 years before. She would not take “NO” for an answer. She did everything to gain my trust, so I didn’t understand what was going on. She wore me down until I gave in. I went to the gynaecologist she referred me to so he could examine me, say I’m fine and send me home. I’d never seen him before in my life. As soon as I sat down, he opened the referral, and the first words out of his mouth was: “You have bleeding. I’m giving you a curette.” I was shocked. He didn’t ask me one single question, and he didn’t examine me. I said I had no bleeding, and I was not having a curette, but he would not take “NO” for an answer. He already had me booked in for a curette. I was not told that it is my choice. He manipulated and coerced me until I gave in. At the post-op appointment 2 weeks later, he said I had cancer and had to have a hysterectomy. He’d already sent the referral to MMC (a public hospital I had never been to before, and was not told Monash Medical Centre is a teaching hospital). I only went there to be examined, told I’m fine, and sent home. (moderated) in Gynaecology/oncology called me in after the waiting room was empty. He then mentioned the bleeding. I was so angry, I said: “Why do you people keep saying I had bleeding, when I hadn’t had a single drop since my menopause finished over 5 years ago, until I was given the curette and bled for 3 days”. He ignored me and told me he was going to take out my cervix, my uterus, my fallopian tubes, and my ovaries. And he was going to do it by laparoscopy, but still may have to cut me open.” Again I was shocked. I said: I have no bleeding, I have no pain, I have no symptoms whatsoever, and begged for another option.” He went berserk. His face was full of anger and contempt as he yelled at me: “YOU HAVE NO OTHER OPTION. YOU SHOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY YOU DON’T HAVE TO HAVE CHEMOTHERAPY. NOT LIKE ALL THOSE WOMEN IN THE WAITING ROOM”, and he flicked his hand toward the empty waiting room and said: “THEY WEREN’T SO LUCKY”. I was shocked. He then answered every question I asked with: You’ll be fine, and insisted I go in, in 2 days. Then he shoved a piece of paper in front of me and pointed where to sign. He did not go through one thing written on that form. I asked him if he’d done laparoscopy surgery before, and he looked me in the eye and told me he’d done hundreds that he could do them with his eyes closed. A blatant lie. I did not know that after I left he added on the form he forced me to sign that he may take out some pelvic lymph nodes as well. He sprung that on me just before the surgery. To make a long story short. He mutilated 6 healthy organs from my body, and God knows how many lymph nodes, as that was covered-up. He botched it beyond repair leaving me wailing in agony every day and bleeding out since he butchered me in June 2005. The morning after he slaughtered my organs, he smugly told me that I was as clean as a whistle. That all my removed organs had been healthy. The whole system took his side and did everything to discredit me and spread the word I was paranoid. They denied that I was in any pain, and kept sending me to psychiatrists who just kept pushing drugs on me and telling me they found nothing wrong in the tests when I kept telling them how much pain I’m in. I’ve never in my life been touched by such evil. I was a victim of fraud, and criminal medical malpractice, and my health and my life has been destroyed by those evil doctors. Why aren’t women warned about these corrupt doctors who trick healthy women into unnecessary hysterectomies? This surgical racket has been going on for decades, and will never stop because as Dr (moderated) said: “The system is still geared to protecting doctors’ reputations rather than protecting patients from unnecessary harm”…

   DrSuarna Mehulic…. Dear June, I am in this difficult situation because I objected such charlatans and their treatment of patients. Your story is unfortunately not uncommon. I have seen it before and I have seen situation where when unethical and unprofessional doctors take all reproductive organs of the patient and cause chronic pain due to botched and unnecessary surgeries. After that is done their next step is to refer patient to psychiatrist. It is absurd reality that these unethical , unprofessional people always get away with everything wrong they do , because they make revenue for the institutions. Most likely you asked yourself lots of time ” why me” but I have to tell you that it is not only you. Only what I know for sure that until values such as honesty, accountability, humanity are surpassed by greediness, business oriented medicine , these issues will not get resolved. There were times when being physician was honored profession and being public servant was the most honored role in the society. I think values has been changed to most honored status of being rich instead. Possibly nationwide campaign to return these values to medicine is of uttermost importance in times to come !
   Respectfully
   Dr.Sue

   June Gardner…. Thank you so much for your compassion, and for the TRUTH, Dr Sue. I’ve been trying to tell women since it happened to me in June 2005, but nobody believes me. I berate myself every day, for being so stupid. Every fibre in my body told me they were wrong, and to RUN for my life, but before this happened, I had complete trust in that female doctor. She did everything to gain my trust, so every time she said I had something wrong, and manipulated and forced her will on me until she wore me down, I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt. My trust was so misplaced, but doctors are revered as the most trusted profession here, and I took that literally. I rarely got sick, so I was totally medically ignorant….THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! for believing my story. I prayed every day to find someone like you who isn’t afraid to blow the whistle on her own profession. God bless you Dr Sue. I’m crying, but it’s for joy that I found you.

   Garrick Sitongia Wow June, that’s really a great reply from DrSuarna.

   June Gardner It great to find an honest doctor who validated my story Garrick, and she lives in America. It would NEVER happen here in Australia, as the corrupt complaints depts. sided with the doctors who harmed me, and not only turned against me, but called me unrealistic, and wrote it was a matter of science and knowledge, that the doctors did no wrong, and I should be lucky they operated on me immediately as some women have to wait up to 9 months for elective hysterectomies. As you can see from my story, I was not told it was elective, and I was bullied and threatened into it. And what science and knowledge? All my removed organs had been healthy, and I was lied to, deceived, totally misled, misinformed, and hoodwinked into immediate surgery. The complaints depts. also said that I went looking medical intervention for bleeding, (a blatant lie) and they had the gall to say that all the agony I’m going through, and the non-stop bleeding caused by the surgery was common after a hysterectomy, and to go find a pain clinic. If that was the case, there would be millions of women worldwide, doubled over in agony, needing wheelchairs, or walking aids to get around.

   Janice Louise Patients need to learn not to give the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for sharing your story June.

   Elizabeth Eugenia LaBozetta June, from gleaning detail from your story there is no doubt in my mind that you were targeted for student surgery training and that you somehow fit the profile of someone they felt they could take full advantage of and get away with it. (as in NOT a “club” member who are protected from such flagrant human-rights abuses as long as they follow “club” rules to the letter) That God for honest doctors like Dr. Suarna who are not afraid to tell the truth. The real doctors.

   June Gardner You are so right Elizabeth. Thought you’d like to read these few paragraphs said by residents at a teaching hospital, from the chapter called: “Negotiating to do Surgery”… After a potential patient was located, she had to be persuaded to have surgery. As one resident put it: “You have to look for your surgical procedures; you have to go after patients. Because no one is crazy enough to come and say, hey, here I am, I want you to operate on me. You have to sometimes convince the patient that she is really sick, and that she is better off with a surgical procedure.”……”The residents’ tactics, based on high volume, were similar to that of any effective sales person, regardless of the product; that is, the greater the number of contacts, the greater the probability of making a sale. This type of high-turnover sale was especially suited to the high-volume, quick turnover conditions in the clinics and emergency room. Like any sophisticated salesperson, a resident could judge within minutes whether a woman was going to buy a hysterectomy. When it appeared that she wasn’t, he used another tactic. Residents believed that women would eventually accept surgery if they were given some time to think it over. Thus, after a resident had completed his pitch and the woman was still reluctant, he would tell her that he would call her in a week and discuss the surgery further. The woman was dismissed and the next prospective case was brought into the examining room. The entire interaction, including physical examination, usually took three or four minutes”….. “Once the woman agreed to surgery, she lost whatever power she previously had had – the power of refusal. The situation changed from one of negotiation to complete control by the resident. The patient was expected to trust the knowledge and wisdom of her doctor. She was not consulted on the form her surgery would take nor was it expected that she was capable of understanding medical-surgical mysteries. The resident, influenced by his own need for practice, decided what operation he would do. Women were not aware that there was a choice.”…..”Surgical teaching programs are having increasing difficulty finding subjects to learn on because they greatly depend on the availability of ward or indigent patients and with increased third-party payments, the number of such patients is shrinking. As a consequence, residents in many city hospitals have done more “selling.”…….” To improve my surgical technique and to get a chance to do some of the surgeries that we don’t get a chance to do otherwise, I went for radical surgery where your dissect out everything; you look for everything”…. “I do enjoy it, and think any doctor is lucky to do radical surgery”…..”It is by mistakes that you grow and mature as a physician. You learn not to do it again; I think that is important. Because if I wasn’t ever going to make any mistakes, there wouldn’t be any reason for me to spend four years being a resident”…..”I don’t know if you can call it a mistake or something that you aren’t experienced with and do something wrong. You can’t call it a mistake. It’s inexperience. If you aren’t taught something, you can’t do it.”….

   • I’m so sorry this happened to you Teresa. I can not imagine how awful things have been for you. This site and everyone here totally understands how you feel. I have fou d friendship here and help. I hope you do to. Please read all the articles and posts and draw strength from the feeling you are now free of doctors and will be in control of any consult from now on. Learn to heal yourself. Research on the internet any problems,diagnose yourself and get any medicines or preferablty herbs and natural remedies yourself. There is no reason why you ever need to visit a doctor ever again. These charlatans have not progressed since medieval times. Since the beginning of time these creeps have raped, butchered and mutilated, poisoned more patients than they have ever made well. Through history they gave probably killed millions but only genuinely thousands. What makes men and women trust these people I will never know. Why are they put on pedastals,trusted and worshipped?
     The Nhs murdered my dad and last year my best friend. They were never out of my dads bum pretending he had prostate cancer. When he died he went of heart failure , records show he never had cancer yet he spent 20 years of his life having treatment. They have women raped by the million with their outdated pap tests. Doctors and the medical profession disgust me. They are obsessed with bums, breasts,vaginas and cancer.

   • Your story is horrifying. I hope you will recover and never see a predatory doctor again. Some doctors are too dangerous for our lives, and the medical system is covering it up!

     If you wish to help more women, you can leave comments on http://www.ratemds.com about each doctor or surgeon that you saw along that dreadful journey. Your comments may save so many lives.

   • May I ask why you even went in for these things? I don’t get why you’d show up for surgery or anything else.

     Something about their tactics:
     At the end of the day, them saying “have to” only applies to the fact that an action has to be engaged in order to occur. I notice that a lot of people mentally connect it with dying as a knee-jerk reaction (since that’s what tends to happen if a need is not met).

     There’s also the concept of believing that what’s in front of you is real- a presumed honesty & accuracy from other people. Not necessarily a misplaced thing, since it IS pretty weird for people to lie for nothing, but there are those that try to use this against people.

     This presenting of information applies in other ways, as well. If they said that this is what you “will be having” or what they’re “going to be doing,” that’s PRESENTING that this is a fixed situation & there exists no capacity for reality to develop any other way. They are more or less saying: “I’m telling the truth, this situation can’t unfurl any other way.” Even though an action has to be engaged in order to occur & if it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t occur.

   • Teresa
     Welcome to the forum.
     Your account is horrifying, but you’re not alone, many women are put through unnecessary hysterectomies. I think the female body is viewed so disrespectfully by the medical profession that our reproductive organs are viewed as disposable, a business opportunity.
     I’ve heard a few doctors say over the years (not to me) “well, you’re not having children at your age or having more children, so you might as well get rid of it, it’s just a potential site for cancer “. Some women are told, “it’s better than years of heavy periods” etc. My SIL was given that line, she had a hysterectomy for fibroids, of course, they usually shrink after menopause and she was close to that age when she had the surgery.
     What bits of the male body should be removed just in case?

     It feels like a war is going on with competing vested interests vying for a slice of the action, look at the poor cervix, the warped focus of women’s healthcare, a cancer that affects fewer than 1% of women. The cervix is subject to medical surveillance for most of our lives, and the majority of women here end up having something “done” to their cervix.
     I’ve never viewed this as healthcare, it’s medical abuse. (I’m sure it’s viewed as great business by vested interests)

     I’m so sorry you were put through hell by the very people we’re supposed to trust. I’ve always viewed the medical profession as a threat, I stand guard over my asymptomatic body. Thank you for warning other women, I’m sure you’ll save other women from the same abuse/ordeal.

2. “They are obsessed with bums, breasts, vaginas and cancer”
   I suppose it’s hardly surprising when initially the profession was almost entirely male, men drunk with power and treated like Gods, untouchable. How dare you complain, silly girl!
   I think the cancer bit is often just an excuse to get women on the table and in a vulnerable position. We don’t see the same attitudes and conduct directed at men, that would have been unthinkable to the profession and no fun at all. Controlling the Pill means controlling women, controlling childbirth, same thing etc. etc.

   It really is depressing to read the comments in the latest edition of “Australian Doctor”, the article is about the changes to the cervical screening program. (due to start in 2017)
   The ignorance is frightening, so many are concerned about pushing the first test to age 25, “it should be 18 at the latest”, they know girls who started having sex at 12 or 13, one makes the comment that he’s seen a few cases of CIN 1 and 2 in women under 25 (I bet he has, they’re called false positives!)

   One doctor makes the point that every 5 years means s/he won’t be able to do a full and regular exam including a breast exam….that says one thing to me – incompetence!
   Routine breast exams have not been recommended for years, I hope s/he explains that to her patient and gets express informed consent – if she has a personal belief in the exam, she needs to get express proper consent. I’ll bet she doesn’t…it’s not being thorough, you’re risking your patients health.
   I have to wonder whether some doctors just don’t want to give up breast exam if they feel like doing one, I’m sure some are relieved the new test is invasive and the only downside is the 5 yearly interval and the loss of really young women.
   Excess biopsies/procedures/surgery/over-treatment are no fun….the casual reach for the female body needs to stop, they wouldn’t do that to a male patient, and it shouldn’t happen to women either. For so long they’ve been able to do as they pleased, time to change that…excess carries risk.
   The Red Book for GPs makes clear routine breast exams are not recommended at any age, yet we have those who persist…more needs to be done, make it known that these exams are not recommended and carry risk so women know excess is not better. It shouldn’t be up to us, but it seems that’s the only way to change things, we can access HPV self-testing kits online, suddenly you can get them through your GP, (if you know about them) the screening rate continues to fall despite all the pressure and campaigns, so they’re finally changing the cervical screening program etc. This says to me that more women are making an informed decision NOT to screen, these campaigns don’t have an impact on informed women.

   I was disappointed to hear the Govt is going to spend $56M on another breast screening “awareness” campaign in an attempt to boost breast screening numbers. (which continue to fall, except I hear more women aged 70 to 74 are screening, so more over-diagnosis on the way) Sussan Ley (Minister for Health) wants to get rid of waste, yet she’s wasting money on an awareness campaign for a highly controversial program. The statement on the Govt website says that mortality from breast cancer has fallen by 37% (or something like that) since screening started, this is dishonest and they know it, most of that fall is about better treatments, not screening.
   The number of women who accept their “invitation” to screen will continue to fall and they can’t do a damn thing about it. Can you see why they’re desperate to keep the evidence from women, you can’t mislead, pressure, scare or confuse an informed woman.

   • The reluctance and opposition of Australian medical circles’ to move to 5-yearly tests only proves that the useless and harmful pap smears and cervical cancer “program” has been (and still is) just an excuse for herding women (especially young ones) into doctor’s offices for medical and government surveillance of their reproductive organs.
     The government got the info on what’s happening in each woman’s vagina, and doctors got the money. Perfect!? Nobody cares that millions of women have been mutilated along the way.

   • Men definitely do not get the same treatment as women in the medical system. There are no national prostate or testicular cancer screening programs despite prostate screening being the number one cancer among men and TC being about as common as CC. Any intimate exam to detect PC or TC is not recommended. According to the Canadian Cancer Society website “there is not enough evidence to recommend regular testicular exams”. Yet for CC it states that “all women who have been sexually active should have regular Pap tests by the time they are 21 years of age”. In Canada it is estimated that this year 1050 men will get TC and 1500 women will get CC. Once a man is done having children doctors don’t recommend removal of the testicles or prostrate to prevent cancer. It would never happen that a man goes to the Dr for a sore throat and gets hounded and unrelated medical treatment denied because his testicular exam isn’t up to date and he refuses to have one right then.

   • http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/10/faulty-research-behind-mammograms-breast-cancer

     Here’s a very good read on breast screening.

     • Excellent article. What continues to frustrate me is that paps don’t get the same level of research and scrutiny. How many women have received unnecessary treatment and surgery because of false positives with a pap smear.

3. If you live in Ontario, Canada then there is some news. This recent bulletin http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/. . There is an exclusion code Q140A (please check) for pap test for “women who are not sexually active” along either those who have had a hysterectomy or getting treatment elsewhere for cervical disease. This might help a few women to get their doctor off their back.

   Also the quotas go in every September and April so I usually like to avoid going to see doctors for non urgent reasons in those months before since they get predatory on any women pushing paps showing up at clinics to fill their quotas.

4. A very interesting article: Why most doctors would rather die than endure the pain of treatment they inflict on others

   The article is 3.5 years old, yet nothing changed. And is unlikely to change. Medicine is a big business, processing patients like inanimate objects, with minimum time and maximum profit. Unless the patient does their own research, questions every “recommendation”, insists on making their own decisions, and makes sure their wishes are not ignored, there is very little chance to benefit from any treatment or procedure. The medical system will continue to do what’s best in its interests, not ours.

   The article is about terminal illnesses, but the medical attitudes are the same as in the rest of health care: patients are not told the truth, not given the option to make an informed decision.

   “While we give care to patients, the vast majority of doctors I know would not want this for themselves. Yet this fact has long been taboo in the medical world.”

   “We also need to get much more frank about what is medically possible and what is not. But that is very difficult when our health service’s ability to achieve things is so often used in Parliament by ministers and MPs to make political points.”

5. This Kickstarter project is concerning; we seem to be moving closer to an Orwellian future where women’s vaginas will be continually wired up and monitored for potential gynecological problems.
   http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/looncup-text-vagina/?fb=ss&prtnr=wrn
   “Enter the Looncup: It’s connected to an app on your smartphone, which will tell you in real-time how full your cup is, when it’s time to empty it, and the volume at which you’re flowing. The fuller your menstrual cup, the more alerts you’ll get. It also claims to help detect gynecological problems by monitoring the color the period blood, which could indicate potential issues.”

6. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-01/new-australian-cervical-testing-a-game-changer/6821488

   This news item seems to imply that women in Australia will all be offered self-testing from 2017.

   • Unfortunately, self-tests will be available only to “underscreened or never screened”.
     So a woman who doesn’t want to be penetrated by a stranger will be forced to discuss her screening history with the doctor fist, and then fight off the pressure to have a test there and then in the doctor’s office.

     Then, the woman’s personal information and test results will still be passed to the government-run pap register for surveillance, and she will be annoyed with all sorts of reminders in the future.

   • http://www.cancerscreening.gov.au/internet/screening/publishing.nsf/content/renewal-ncsp-pres

     No chance, only for those who’ve never screened or the under screened.
     Of course, women will read and hear about this option and some may refuse the invasive test or buy a self test kit. I suppose they feel those who screen regularly will still follow orders. I think we’ll see a lot of women demanding and finding a way to access self test kits. Women will be told self testing is not as reliable, that will work on some women and keep them on the couch.

     • Elizabeth just checked the NHS website you left a comment on a while ago and it is up!! It past the moderator!

     • Thank you for contributing to the NHS website Elizabeth. I noticed that Dr Mackie has replied to your comment. It’s great to have the discussion out in the open on NHS webpages now.

       Kat, I also noticed that on the cervical screening webpage a woman has recently commented asking how she can opt out of screening and stop the letters. I’ve tried all the passwords I know, and also tried resetting my password, but just can’t get in again. You said you’d only been able to post 2 comments, so I’m just wondering if it only allows you to make two comments….?

     • No problem, it’s laughable that anyone could say they present screening as a choice.

       “My Mum missed her smear test, now I miss my Mum”…is that offering women a choice, covering risks and benefits and extending an “offer”…hardly, it’s a threat, a scare tactic, making women/mothers feel guilty, concerned for their children…it’s hardly an approach taken when you’re extending an offer. You have a choice, pap test and you’ll live to see your children grow up, no pap test and you run a terrible risk – early and preventable death, silly woman! I haven’t seen the likes of this campaign in bowel or prostate screening, it’s a tactic/approach reserved for women’s screening.

       It’s like the pro-screeners who use informed consent to push screening, “we want women to make an informed choice to screen”…no, informed choice means making up our own minds, that might be a yes or a no. The implication: the only informed choice is to screen.
       Some try to pretend women are free to screen or not, but then hasten to take away any choice, “but we strongly urge women to screen, it could save your life!”.

       They KNOW there is little to no respect for informed consent (and even consent is often missing) in practice, that’s how the program has always worked, they need numbers and they’ll get them any way they can, link it to the Pill, opportunistic screening, pay off GPs.
       Choice? You must be joking….
       You can print as many booklets as you like, but with the same coercive, unethical and abusive system in place, choice is just a word.

7. Our local university shop is now selling T-shirts with the following big logo across the front:
   http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Mb3864f44130f4f39f46b012cb8324ed7o0&w=166&h=135&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.1
   Something to wear to the next doctors appointment, I think.

   • I was never given a choice. I was hoodwinked into believing smear tests were compulsory because I was on the pill. I endured several negative experiences because of smear tests. I was coerced, bullied, forced and tricked into allowing them access to my private parts. The law quite clearly states rape with an instrument is considered a crime in the UK. What diffetence is their approach to that of a rapist holding a knife to my throat demanding access to my vagina? I am left with flashbacks, the certain knowledge they murdered a baby, a feeling the NHS owns my vagina, distrust and avoidence of doctors. I will never get over it. They knew I was low risk. I should have been allowed choice. They had no respect for me whatsoever.
     An entire adult life given over to periodic scrutiny of their vaginas. How is this considered good for women? I am glad i called a halt to it 5 years ago. I will live my life free of this ridiculous intrusion.

     • I was never given a choice either. If I wanted BC I had to have the full well woman’s exam every year which included a pap test. I was never told what a pap test was for or the risks or benefits of screening much less given the option of declining screening. Withholding BC for the well woman’s exam including the pap is coercion which is illegal and unethical. Coercion for an invasive and intimate exam amounts to sexual assault. Legally and ethically every medical test or procedure requires informed consent which includes informed refusal.

     • It is rape.

8. adawells: That’s a good idea!

   This reminds me of something that happened over the summer: I was going to restaurant for my birthday with some family & while we were waiting, I saw a guy wearing some weird thing around his neck. It looked a bit like a fire piston, but I wasn’t sure. So when we were going to our table, I ask him what it is & he said it was an “african rape whistle.” Then I say “But they don’t give a shit in Africa” (there was also a twenty-something chick with the group & she nodded). Then he says that that’s the reason they have the whistle. Then I say: “No, that’s why you have guns & machetes” (the chick nodded to this as well).

   I notice that when guys are thinking whistles are the answer & chicks are thinking that weapons are the answer (instead of both thinking weapons), there’s a serious problem. If nothing else, these twenty-something college students tend to be trend-setters (or give it momentum) & this is particularly true intellectually. Does this mean that the woman’s going to have to fight the group of grown men that outweigh her by a hundred pounds each & the guys that are around are going to be acting like spectators? The answer to any problem seems to be “record things & site regulations,” even when people get a green light for wantonly killing people on camera.

   Just something I’m noticing about the college generation. Maybe that’s why things are as dangerous as they’ve increasingly gotten at colleges? None of these intended victims is a violent threat?

9. http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/do-mammograms-kill-more-women-than-they-save/

   A good article from Scientific American, with some good linking articles too.

   • Adawells I managed to get into the site and left another comment which is awaiting moderation so we shall see!

10. http://t.co/xnhuCYxOBz
    Another item from the Victorian age.

11. Click to access PIIS0140-6736(04)17260-7.pdf

    Halfway down the third column on this page 1483, A. Raffle and M. Quinn have written:

    “Men need to be protected from the damage that the first 20 years of cervical screening inflicted on women…”

    Unfortunately I have not been able to get hold of the document about this damage that the references refers to.

    • This link is only an excerpt and you would have to find a link to the correct journal publication to read the whole of the article.

      I think the “men have to be protected from the damage of the first 20 years of cervical screening inflicted on women….” Is referring to any proposed prostate screening programme. Very well that men are thought to be needing protection from unnecessary prostate treatments (prostate removal means sexual impotence and /or incontenience) but just ignore all the harm that continued cervical screenings does for women. I suppose that removing cervix and uterus that a woman can still have sex but just not enjoy it so much or that she has increased risk of heart disease is not important to the commenters.

12. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/20/american-cancer-society-eases-mammogram-recommendations.html
    With the Pill starting to come off script in the States (California and Oregon) there must be a lot of worried doctors.
    Note comment by Countmeamused…love his comments

    • Oh, pity we won’t see any change on our Medieval Paternalistic Australia with its self-declared “best in the world health care system”. This wonderful system is adamant that patients, especially women, are too dumb and ignorant to know what they want and how they feel. They have to be told what to do.

      We cannot get birth control without doctor’s surveillance, we cannot self-refer to ultrasounds and minor diagnostic tests without GP’s approval, we cannot have unobstructed access to abortions, we cannot seek anonymous medical help (even though we have the right to do so, but it exists on paper only), and, of course, we cannot stop being pestered with “importance” of all sorts of harmful screening.

      • Hi Alice. Its not just Australia. Its every country. A few years ago the Labour Gov in the UK decided that every farm animal was to be tagged with an ID number to enable authorities to track it. This was going to be extended to pets and then onto wild snimals such as deer,badgers,rabbits,foxes and some birds. Every animal was to be accounted for. The programme fell apart because of money.
        However,what we are now realising is that this has already been done to humans via the NHS. Sick and ill humans as well as those who appear to be healthy. These people want s record of how we are doing. My weight,height, what i generslly eat,wether i smoke, drink, do drugs has all been collected. When i was at my doctors last he even asked if i was having the meno and ticked a box on screen. The problem for us is that they want to do some very invasive testing. For women they want a record of their vaginas. Rather than giving people choice they behaved like the Nazis and herded us all against our wills. Used propoganda and lies to trick us into beleiving CC was rampant. Shamed and abused us.
        In some countries like China, Brazil and Poland there has been a push to make smear tests compulsory. They haven’t suceeded. Yet.
        Other countries are surely trying to make the test compuslory. I’m afraid from what i read here Australia maybe one of them.
        The UK, Europe and even America are changing their stance. I sense Cancer testing has been exposed for the problems it causes and things are moving forward. From what i read cancer screening is being recognised as a choice. You must do everything you can to fight for Australian women.

      • Linda, you are absolutely right. It is clear that the primary purpose of any government-imposed cancer screening program is either to save or make money, while the secondary — to find a pretext to keep the population, especially women, under close surveliance. Soon they will be routinely using DNA screening, and for us that will be no different from convicted criminals who have their DNA in the police database.

        The medical system is the major invader of people’s freedom and privacy. And the main danger too. For example, in Australia, doctors and medical institutions have the power to ask for and collect the largest amount of private information, while the privacy law allows total disclosure without people’s permission if this information is used for “the purpose of medical research”. So it is enough for any company to pretend they are doing some medical research — and private lives of millions are in their hands! All sanctioned by the government. What’s worse is that the Australian government not only facilitates the violation of people’s medical privacy, it actually forces people to participate in Heath surveys. It is a jailable offence in Australia to decline participation is ABS Heath surveys, no matter how invasive.

        A “free country” with “the best in the world health care system”. Yeah…

      • Alice you are right. Our rights under every law and country are being eroded away. Be it treaty, the UN, or our warped governments social programs. Our retirement savings accounts are now, by law (in US too) subject to being “taken” in percentage of value, to “assist” a banking institution in “recovery” after its own mismanagement. So much for shareholders and executives; they escape while we pay. The liberal media is too enmeshed in promoting LGBT agenda to care.

        Jola on 10/3 discussed Poland’s vaccination programs. The US parallels them. Here too babies begin HEP B vaccinations within 24 hours. There is a connection between HEP B vaccination in the very young and Type 1 or Juvenile Diabetes. Stupid parents go along… I totally agree re Guardisil. A friend’s daughter received it before I could talk to her. She had several reactions and missed months of school. Required months of physical therapy. We are being slowly conditioned to accepting total governmental control. The next steps, living by the smart card. The chips in those cards is intended to fit inside our forearms.

        I have long wondered, how the Bible could predict future events. It’s all coming true. In Revelations there’s a verse mentioning the destruction and desolation of Damascus. Coming soon; along with the chip, aka the Mark Of The Beast.

        Long ago there was a question to how a prostate biopsy in men is performed. The patient is started on antibiotics. He receives IV sedation and analgesia. His prostate is visualized on rectal ultrasound. A devise is inserted rectally. It “shoots” several barb like probes through his rectal lining into the prostate. These are retrieved. Several must be performed to determine diagnosis and treatment.

        Very good advice for men. To prevent prostate issues including cancer. The best thing he or you can do is to “cycle” or “flush” him at least 21x per month. Accumulating seminal fluids can carry toxins, hormones, and plug the prostate causing a dangerous inflammation.

    • “The irony is that women are poised to retake women’s wellness from male providers that clearly designed the regimen to benefit themselves (of course that’s why this barbarism is finally being scrutinized too).
      The Catholic Church paid billions to settle its own institutionalised sex abuse problem. How much do you suppose this is worth? And who should be going to jail? And who is going write the first article about this particular “culture of rape”.”

      Another comment by Count Me Amused…

13. Also found this one on twitter, with medical practitioners amazed this is still happening at all –
    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/women-need-annual-pelvic-exam/#.ViOrLF3uhSs.twitter

    • Hi Ada. Why do they think useless paps and pelvics can build ‘trust’ between patient and gyno? By doing them women will impart private information they may have not mentioned. This is not a good enough reason to keep doing them. I trusted doctors and nurses for over twenty years before i suddenly woke up and realized paps are not worth the hassle and useless and they had been raping me by continuing to pretend they were necessary. Now i am left angry and sad that they have done this to me.
      There is trust between me and our vet that he will take care of my rabbit but he has never insisted on raping me. Similarly there is trust between me and the post man he will deliver my letters but he didn’t need to rape me either
      Also when my friends and me get together we impart private info about ourselves over .coffee. Women are intelligent and we don’t need to build trust inorder to get treatment for anything. The gyno rapists must be so worried about their jobs. Stuff em !

      • Imaginary conversation between my husband and his doc

        ‘Hey Doc, now youve got your finger up my a#%e and i feel i can trust you, i have been worried about one or two other other little thing lately.’

      • What builds trust between a patient and Dr is not intimate exams but the Dr being honest and providing the information for me to make an informed decision about any medical test or treatment. The reason women now expect these exams is because they’ve been lied to about their importance and had them forced on them if they want BC.

      • Hi Linda,
        Just to let you know that I’ve got about 6,000 words on the history of the NHS screening programme, which I’m going to reduce and make more to the point. I’m also going to submit a shorter piece on my own private experience. As you say, I’m working on it as a word document so it will be all proofread and corrected before I send it. Glad you know about the Kindle techie stuff as I know nothing about that. It’s such an exciting project, I can’t wait to see it when it’s done.

      • Linda, your piece for the e-book is powerful, I think many women will identify with it, it also shows the way women are treated is carefully engineered to make them feel powerless; like their body belongs to others.
        I’ve heard many women over the years say they now hate their body or feel nothing below the waist, hate being a woman and all that means, all the ugliness of this program has reduced them to a shell.
        The male student in the exam room is another example of the disrespectful way women are treated. There is no doubt in my mind they plant, the student in the exam room to ambush the woman, knowing many will feel unable to refuse…they couldn’t care less about our feelings and bodily autonomy. It’s all about getting what they want, how to best manipulate the woman for their ends.
        It would be an easy matter, ask the woman before the consult, “do you mind a male /student being present for your smear?” I can tell you they’d get a lot of NO’s, they KNOW that, this way they can once again, override our feelings, put us on the spot. This is also why they want to get their claws into us early in life, so they can neutralize the normal feelings we have of modesty, bodily privacy, preservation of dignity, being treated like an individual with legal rights…it’s part of their “get over it” strategy.
        Turning us into a member of the screening herd.
        I felt your pain right through your essay.
        I’m so pleased this ugliness is now behind you and you’ve now started the healing process.

14. Hi everybody,
    I’ve been reading this blog for a while and I thought I’d write you all my own impressions about this, as I’m also a pap smear renegade, and after reading all this stuff I’m now proud of it! I’m 31 and I live in Quebec. I found this place after browsing some medicine and health forums and blogs, I’m a medecine geek and I like reading news about it, but I’m not in medicine, though I have a scientific education, one of the subjects I had been following closely for a few years was that gardasil vaccine and that “early detection saves lives” cancer hype.

    Sometimes there was this Elizabeth from Australia commenter who kept popping by, I was wondering if it was the same person because she was often writing the same things, turns out I was right hehe! I ended up here after reading some articles about pelvic exams being useless and guidelines change for pap tests. I also found the issue 24 of HPV today that Elizabeth mentioned, I keep it preciously, it was a great read!

    I’m not sure there’s been commenters from my province already, though I know some of you are in Ontario. In Quebec there isn’t a pap test program like Ontario, so you don’t receive letters or phone calls, but there is a mammogram program for women over 50. The pap tests here are made on an opportunistic basis, so they will try to push one on you when you go to your GP (if you have one), and they certainly use the “pap for birth control pill” black mail tactics as well.

    I was on the pill for some years but always managed to avoid the pap test by getting the pill prescription from a dermatologist who was a very nice woman, as I was taking it for my acne. Then I decided to rely only on a prescription cream that was doing a much better job and dropped the pill completely because I didn’t need any birth control, and wasting a whole day waiting in an doctor’s office for just 2 minutes appointment wasn’t worth it. I was also starting to get annoying side effects, basically having a menopause at age 24, insomnia, hot flashes, bad temper, joint pain, zero libido, neck and back pain. All this vanished almost instantly when I went off the pill and my cycle came back pretty quickly and all was well. I think I’m lucky because I’ve read lots of stories about women struggling getting off the pill and having a bunch of nasty side effects and having hormonal imbalance, but that’s for another discussion.

    I’ve recently started using the symptom thermal method that I discovered online, to track my fertility and I’m glad to discover my years of more or less useful pill taking didn’t affect my health and I’ll never go back on any hormonal BC. I never had problem to get my acne cream renewed, I go to a walk-in clinic, they sign me the script and I’m good for 2 years of refill and never get bothered with a pap. And I think that now I might be able to get the prescription renewed by a pharmacist, so I wouldn’t even need to get a doctor’s signature and I could avoid them completely.

    Last time I had a real doctor appointment was more than 10 years ago, with a female GP who was our family’s doctor. Every year my mother booked me an annual check-up with her for no reason that she thought I would get a serious illness if I didn’t went to. I always thought it was completely useless, as if the GP could detect heart disease by listening to it for 3 seconds or looking into my ear to find what exactly, I don’t know, I could have had an alien waiting to burst out of my chest she wouldn’t have had a clue. I’m glad some physicians in the US are saying this kind of check-up is useless. She had no idea how to improve my acne either (and she probably didn’t care), I had to make a scene in her office to get a referral to the dermatologist who would eventually prescribe me the pill and the cream. When I was about 17-18 the GP started pestering me with vaginal exam and pap test, I told her that I would let her do one when I thought it would be pertinent. The face she gave me when I told her that, priceless! She tried to take revenge by asking me if I was sexually active and when I said no she made a sneer and said “oh, you haven’t started that yet”, so I left her office and never came back again. I was proud of myself. I don’t know why I didn’t flip her the bird then, but if it happened today I totally would.

    You guys might have not had the French side of this matter, but it’s just as worse in France than it is in the UK or Germany, from what I’ve read from French blogs and forums about this. Doctors in France, especially gynos, are quick to prescribe the pill (and the pap test that goes with the package) to teenagers and women for various reasons, including pharmaceutical incentives. Though they don’t have an official screening program in France, they have the same opportunistic testing over there as well, with the same consequences of over screening, black mailing pill prescriptions and excessive biopsies and unnecessary treatments.

    Sorry for the long post, I needed to share 🙂

    A side not to Alex, I saw you mentioned the site Bare naked islam, I’m a regular reader of that one too!

    • I’m 31 too and never had a pap smear. Glad I’m not alone.

    • Miso99: Yeah, that site has a lot of good information. You know what’s interesting? They (people in America, at least the ones that know about it) frequently make the point about virginity tests in those middle eastern countries, as well as the more conventional impositions in that part of the world. Like as an argument for it being a shithole. That they, both conventionally & unconventionally, violate & otherwise molest people (usually women & girls, but more frequently than is mentioned men & boys). And that they act like it’s innocent.

      Isn’t that strange?

      • Bafflingly enough, when someone from one of “those countries” refuses something done, that’s no problem. They just back off.

        Yet, when someone from a different background (or affiliation, sometimes it isn’t both), they get pushed around & frequently have something imposed on them. Which is frequently deemed perfectly innocent. By both the ones that do it & by the policy implementation workers that come down on everyone about everything. And, frequently, the surrounding public.

        Just to shrug off the subtlety a bit: It’s wrong to do things like the Muslims do, but only to the Muslim women they usually do it to.

      • If these countries would just rename their virginity tests as “well woman visits” or “cancer screening” they wouldn’t have any problems.

        What’s the point to bring a child of 11-12 years old or a young teenager who doesn’t have any symptoms of anything, to a doctor to have her reproductive organs checked? Sure they don’t produce a virginity certificate or whatever it could be called, but you could interpret it that way, if there’s no symptoms or suspicion of anything, then what are they looking for? It’s not to the benefit of the child or teenager to endure that, and it sends a grim impression that now that she’s becoming a woman, her body is basically in a constant pre-disease state and has to be monitored. The mother who does that to her kid is an anxious pervert in my opinion.

      • They DON’T have any problems, at least that I’m aware of.

        That concept of pre-disease is probably undermining in other ways- like she’s not of good quality, so her decisions would be shit, too.

        Another thing is that it seems some women feel like they’re doing something bad by not engaging in these situations. Phrasing it as “avoiding” or “neglecting.”

    • I think the obsession with screening shows that while it may have been invented a long time ago to genuinely help women, like many other women-oriented initiatives, it is now all about monitoring women (to establish what they are up to – sexually), “treating” women (to get the profits rolling in) and punishing women (I’ve read loads of accounts online where women diagnosed with a number of “abnormalities” have been harshly judged by NHS staff – presumably because they believe the patients are promiscuous). This has got NOTHING to do with our health. If it had, they’d also be concerned with our hearts, our livers, our brains etc. They are not. They could screen us for mental illness or diabetes or heart disease – three very prevalent illnesses which are far more likely to affects us than cervical cancer but hey, surprise surprise, there’s NO screening programme for those. I’ve heard Canada is obsessed with screening and it surprises me because Canada supposedly has an excellent reputation for its’ famed liberalism. I’ve met a Canadian male who says he was pestered from age 35 to have prostate exams (although he agreed in principle and went along with it), so perhaps this obsession in Canada is due to some misguided liberalism? In the US at least, it appears very sinister as well as many other countries including many in Europe, Aus and NZ. I believe the origins of “screening” hark back to days when many people had strange ideas about women and sex. This programme was all about judging and punishing women for having sex, which now also has profits, bonuses and incentives thrown into the agenda.

    • Hi Miso99
      I just noticed your post, welcome to the forum.
      Like you I managed to avoid most of the pressure by staying as far away from doctors as possible, I also, have a skin issue (it’s actually an auto-immune condition) vitiligo, but I’m also fair so it’s not that noticeable. Fortunately, a dermatologist has never mentioned pap testing to me, I know in the States most medical professionals focus on the test, trying to capture as many women as possible.
      You’re wise to forget annual wellness checks, they’re FAR more likely to harm you and there is no evidence of benefit. In Canada, I’m sure this exam would include routine breast and pelvic exam and a pap test – all expose you to risk and pap testing should be confined to the roughly 5% of women aged 30 to 60 who test HPV+ (an offer, not an order)
      Hopefully, we’ll change the system as more and more women refuse the excess and question a warped and harmful system.

      Acne – I didn’t have a problem in my teens but ended up with some acne in my 30s probably thanks to a very stressful job. I used Roaccutane, the side effects were unpleasant, but it worked. The dermatologist wanted to put me on the Pill while I was taking this drug, I declined, I used the Billings Method. (the only method I ever used)
      The doctor made a point of saying that if I got pregnant I’d probably face a termination. (the drug can cause birth defects)
      I’ve always felt the medical profession feels more comfortable with women on the Pill, with an IUD or implant, it keeps us tied to them…they also assume we’re all hopeless so anyone relying on condoms or the Billings Method is bound to get pregnant.

      The Pill works well for many women, it produces unpleasant side effects for other women…some can’t tolerate it at all. I didn’t have the option of the Pill for birth control, it meant exposing myself to pap tests, pelvic and breast exams every 6 months or year, that was OUT of the question.
      I know some women who developed cervical erosion while they were taking the Pill, the bleeding led to some invasive and nasty procedures – no cancer or anything else, just the erosion. I’ve always felt medical meddling is the main reason so many women have gyn “issues” and why so many face invasive exams, tests and procedures.
      My opinion: If you stay away from the medical profession when you’re well, (or closely monitor what is being offered/done) you’re MUCH more likely to have a happy and healthy life.

      I understand lots of well people choose to see a doctor every year or so, especially from mid-life, but even then, we should be vigilant. A GP once tacked the CA125 blood test onto my pathology form, my iron levels were being checked (I’d recently stopped eating red meat) – I was horrified when I noticed it on the way home, I declined to receive the results.
      I made clear to the GP that I didn’t ask for the test and would never agree to it..it’s highly unreliable and can lead to unnecessary surgery. These so-called simple tests that can be casually added, even without our permission, can lead to some dangerous places, faced with a bad/abnormal result many people will feel compelled to go to the next stage…more testing, biopsies or even investigative surgery.

15. It’s unbelievable the straws these doctors are grasping at to keep justifying this invasive, violating exam of such low clinical value. When they say they wish to build trust, it’s not so much so women will feel comfortable speaking with them about sensitive subjects. Rather, they try to build a trusting relationship so women will comply with their recommendations, including ever more invasive procedures and surgeries. Gynecologists are basically surgeons and that’s what they want to do as much as possible – perform surgery. I wish more women would wake up to the truth about these con artists in white coats.

16. I don’t understand the obsession with well woman exams. Personally, I’m not overweight, bp is fine, no cholesterol, no diabetes, coping with

    • Me ether

    • me either. i spent many yrs trying to get help with my issue ( vaginimus) i think.
      i have ben denied help because i am physically unable to have an exam! i finally gave up!
      after being so distoryed that i have never really bern able to love anyone, enjoy intimacy!
      being made fun of etc.

      i have been traumaized and never found an answer to my issue.

      i am not sure about a colonscopy. i have Dr. phobia bad! Hated being examined!

      Drs office nurses are no help!

17. Menopause, so I am a well woman! In 6 years with my new practice I’ve never felt the need for advice on sexual health or performance and I’ve never needed sti testing

18. Just checked the NHS blog about how do we help people decide if screening is right for them and my 3rd comments up! I took a real pop at the programme too!

    • https://t.co/sAWVvhrqZm

      That’s great news Kat. Take a look at these terrific comments on another NHS cervical screening website. They are a few years old too, and still up!

19. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article4582035.ece
    “He warned that many women were still unaware that fertility declined as they aged and called for a national system of fertility checks to act as a “wake-up call”.
    The checks would begin at age 25, at the same time as cervical smear tests.”

    Every worst assumption put together about women, packaged into policy, and then sold back to their faces as empowerment. Of course there is no technology to tell a 25yrs old(or anyone) what percent chance they have falling pregnant the next five years or next year, but the same can be said about smear tests, as smear testing was founded on false scientific premises, and became a population based initiative without clinical trials- these policies are just means to ideological aims.

    • I notice hear in the Us guns are pushing freezing eggs and scaring young woman about there fertility.

      • I was shocked to learn that the LoonCup actually existed. I can sadly imagine a girl who totally depends on her doctors to subscribe. I imagine the Cup would come with faces. Happy for when the pap was done; sad for when past due.
        Nowhere in the pro-pap madness does one hear the opinion that women stay away from healthcare so they can avoid the medical baed assaulting.
        You can bet US is watching Australia & elsewhere to see how self-testing works. One thing I am convinced will happen. Once self-screened and “registered” into the government web, women will find themselves being “seduced” into the stirrups or into regular in-office screening. Remember, US gynes don’t want to let go of papping because it brings in money. An invasive exam earns more than a simple office visit. Especially under ObummerCare.
        I am going to write to Ben Carson. Perhaps he’ll answer me regarding what his policy would be concerning the in office rapes commonly known as pelvic exams.
        Previously I’ve written about Jeff Abrams MD. The criminal case closed. Nobody wanted to testify against him–they say. Suddenly, due to his “health” issues, he’s only going to receive 5 years probation, house arrest, and have to register as a sex offender. Suddenly, he has kidney cancer… Looked pretty good on tv despite such a bleak outlook.
        I wonder if he and former San Diego mayor Bob Filner had the same defense attorney. I’m sickened by this. Anybody else, regardless, would receive a severe sentence.
        We were not told how he took those pictures so we could learn how to protect ourselves against others. How much KY was used to slicken and slip this past old lady justice… Now, besides being blind, old lady justice must be stupid too.

      • @Cat&Mouse You can bet US is watching Australia & elsewhere to see how self-testing works. One thing I am convinced will happen. Once self-screened and “registered” into the government web, women will find themselves being “seduced” into the stirrups or into regular in-office screening.

        This is precisely what’s going to happen. According the new Australian guidelines, the HPV self-testing option will only be available via doctors, and only to those women that the system defines as “underscreened” or “never screened”.

        Once a woman took the self-test, she is no longer underscreened, she becomes screened and therefore can no longer get another self-test kit. The woman’s personal details and test results will be entered into the government’s cervical surveillance register, and from then on the woman will be contacted, pestered, pressured, “reminded” about the vital importance of screening, told she is “due”, and given only one option to test — stirrups and speculum in the doctor’s office. The government wants to keep the access to vaginas. In Australia, women’s reproductive organs are controlled by the state and the medical system, not by women. That’s why abortion is still a crime under the Criminal Code in Australia.

        With the new guidelines coming into effect in a year, the best approach for Australian women will be to avoid screening until they have concerns or want to check their HPV status. If they never screened before, they will be able to get the self-test kit. When filling the form for the sample analysis, make it clear that you do not want your details to be entered into cervical screening registers. If the lab still puts you into the register despite your directions, make a complaint and demand your details to be deleted ASAP, before they are shared with any other third pastries. Also demand the results of the test to be sent directly to you, not to the the doctor, so you don’t end up in the doctor’s office being pressured into “further investigations”, colposcopies or biopsies just because you have HPV. If you have your results before seeing the doctor, you can do your research and make your decisions independently.

        Most HPV infections clear on their own. But because Australia is going to wind down the frequent pap-smearing, which has been a very lucrative enterprise for the medical profession, they need to keep the jobs and income of the colposcopy clinics and day procedures, so they will refer women for cervical mutilation without delay, as soon as a woman test positive for HPV.

      • Great comments Alice; amazing information Miso99! Thank you both!
        I’ll be keeping you all informed about how things go between us (hubby & myself) and my gyne. He gave me two months Covaryx 1.25/2.5mg (estrogen/testosterone) and then a message for an appt and exam. We’ll have to see the definition of exam here. This drug, at this dose, helps me most stay moist, healthy, and sexually active both in thoughts and action. Since I used Trovagene a year ago I don’t see what any issue should exist. Considering I still need my knee replaced, I can prove medical necessity for not having any exam.
        I’m not so strictly opposed to an office visit. It’s been a few years, so I can understand his need to make some dough off me. However, it’s the definition of that visit. No pap. That’s where we’ll be drawing the line. What bothers me, and we’ll use it against him depending on what he says to us, is his statement that he can’t feel ovaries or anything except the cervix and about 1-1/2″ of uterus. Yeah, keep that one in mind when they brag they can feel everything you have.
        Please pray for us.

    • Desperate to find a valid use for the speculum test aren’t they? Got to keep it going and make women feel their lives depend upon it. And I suppose information regarding the fertitlity status of women might be made available to employers, who can then decide to promote those less likely to have children than others?

      • Not only for employers (though depending where you live there might be anti-discrimination laws about “might be more prone to get pregnant” so the employer couldn’t legally get rid of you base on that), but this could be one can of worms from an insurance point of view.

        Say you need life insurance, you need to disclose tests that shows on your medical record in the questions you fill in for the request, so just the fact of taking a fertility test might trigger them into considering you have other health issues as well and they might decline your request or charge you extra premium. It could be similar to the HIV tests back in the 80s and 90s, if you declared you had been tested for HIV your application for life insurance was more certainly be declined, but today with wide spread screening available for anyone who might ask for it (at least in the public health system in Canada) they no longer decline based on the presence of HIV testing, but they will ask you “Have you got a positive result to an HIV test”. Most insurers, at least In Canada, will perform their own HIV blood test whether you’re at risk or not, it’s now more a matter of “prove you don’t have it” than checking who’s really infected.

        I don’t know how it works in the USA for health insurance from private carriers, about how declining pap tests/mammogram/other cancer screening might affect eligibility for coverage, so if you know please leave a comment, I’d like to know it works.

        These fertility check-ups are a joke, if they’re going to monitor fertility they need to 1) identify ovulation moment – how are they going to do that, provide an ultrasound machine to carry with you 24/7 for 2 weeks a month then 2) daily blood samples to check hormone levels? How are they going to pay for that, how much time will be wasted on healthy women while there are really sick people out there who would benefit much more from that time with a doctor?

    • News to me. That women don’t know their fertility declines as they get older. First thing I really did know.

      This BS is meant to herd us closer to the doctor. We’ve educated our way past the fear that made us circle the stirrups yearly. Now the medical establishment needs another way to end run the young we’ve passed our experiences onto. Replace the old fear with a new fear. If you don’t come here for “preconception care,” you can forget about having a baby. This means our message is being heard; and doctors consider us a threat.

      No problem. Time for us to to offer a refresher course to the younger women. Remind them about how the colpo brush spreads HPV and most importantly causes miscarriages. Reinforce to them that unnecessary treatments like cold knife, LEEP, etc, are de facto amputations that cause an inability to carry their infant to term.

      Most women we talk to are interested and then very grateful after hearing us out. There is always an unexpected one who can’t handle her own life and “prefers” to leave all her decisions to her doctor.

20. http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/jwh.2015.5220

    This is a very detailed article written for doctors so that they can advise women whether or not to take up the mammogram offer, but it is a great read if you can work your way through it.

    It’s from Mitzi Blennerhassett’s terrific website “Even Stars Explode”
    https://evenstarsexplode.wordpress.com/2015/10/27/breast-cancer-screening-how-does-the-nhs-bsp-shape-up-against-updated-guidelines/“

21. Hey, everyone. I wanted to share some insights on a few things that apply to medical situations & might be useful for deflecting unconventional attacks.

    (1) When someone refuses something, there seems to usually be the question “Why?” Like an attempt to “kick the chair out from under someone.” They want to hear a reason to convince someone that it’s no good & is like a dead battery as far as influence goes. A reply for this can be “Because I’m sure that that’s my decision.”

    Very likely they would continue asking questions (or rather, issuing challenges/contraventions), but someone could make the point that they were picking a course of action- not asking for applause. If they keep badgering them, the person could say that it is their “inclination of comportment.” If they CONTINUE, and there’s a high probability that they would, the observation can be made that they keep badgering someone for a reason as if their assessment of it imbues it with actuation. Whatever you say, they’ll likely argue with because they’re trying to make a sale.

    (2) There are people in the world that are “anti non-self.” I figure this could be a more accurate way of describing what’s frequently called a “narcissist.” The thing with them is that anyone else, anything that they do, and even extent circumstances (because it’s not a product of their imagination) are things they have an issue with.

    (3) Ultimately, what happens is what occurs & it’s not always wrong to keep something from occurring. No offense meant, but it seems women have more of an issue with this. I guess it’s like a “vitiation of life” in the dynamic sense of the word. Still not always wrong- supposing something (or someone) was looking to eat your kid. That’s an example right there. Stopping someone from maiming, murdering, or molesting you is another one. Stopping any of that from being done to your children is another one. All of which apply in situations that are only rarely thought of as hostile & to people that are rarely thought of as enemies.

22. Bad news: Australian politicians are pushing for a law amendment to allow them to drag all Australians into the government’s health surveillance system (also known as PCEHR, MyHR, eHealth, etc — they keep renaming it after every major failure).

    At the moment, Australian law does not allow the forced creation of online health records. eHealth system is optional, and only 10% of Australians signed up for it ever since it was rolled out. The rest want their freedom and privacy intact. The government didn’t take the message. More so, it decided to force everyone in. Once the new law is passed, they will start a trial in far North Queensland and Blue Mountain regions where over 1 million people will be used as guinea pigs to “iron out” bugs, glitches and security issues in the insecure, privacy-invading, badly made system. The government promises to give the people a chance to opt out of this $hit, but nobody said so far as how it is going to be done. The trail regions were carefully selected to ensure the minimal opt out. In far North Queensland, most people don’t even have computers, let alone know how to opt out of the monsters like MyGov or eHealth systems.

    Once the government authorities get the “right” results in the trial, the whole Australian population will be dragged into eHealth. After that, it won’t be surprising if the law is changed again, to restrict opt out and to allow the government to sell the health information or give access to it to third parties, including private enterprises and overseas corporations. This already happened with credit reporting data and business registers: people’s personal information is sold to whoever wants to pay for it, and there is no way for individuals to stop it. Insurance companies will pay a fortune to get access to people’s health data. Will Australian government be able to resist such an offer? I doubt it!

    The bottom line: opt out of Australian eHealth while you have a chance!

    • Needless to say that this system will be used for pestering people about screening.

      Another approach the govt can adopt to force those who opted out back in is to start telling the patients that they can only get copies of pathology results, diagnosing test reports, health record copies and any other health information through eHealth only. Australian medical system already made it difficult for the patients to get this information, and soon it may be locked behind eHealth. Want to be a part of your health care decisions – say goodbye to privacy!

    • The Australian Privacy Foundation‘s Bernard Robertson-Dunn, who has developed IT systems for several government departments, said it was “patently absurd” to believe that Australian laws could protect against criminals and cyber-terrorists operating overseas.

      He’s written to senators complaining that the committee has ignored the expert advice provided to it in submissions, most of which raised concerns about the new model. “This is in spite of being told that it is insecure and a major threat to the privacy of most Australians, has little value to health professionals and has all the appearance of primarily being an aid to law enforcement and revenue collection agencies,” the letter says.

      Dr Robertson-Dunn told AAP the private medical details of all Australians could potentially be stolen in an Ashley Madison-style hacking scandal, in which a group of hackers released private information of the website’s users. He says even lawful access of the system could pose a “huge invasion of privacy”, allowing anyone employed at a medical institution to access a person’s entire medical record.

      • Thanks, Alice, I’ll try again, last time I looked at getting out of e-health the system took me around in circles until I gave up, not this time.
        Also, coming back into the country yesterday I went through the e-passport channel and a screen appears, you have to opt-in to an information sharing scheme (your personal details, travel movements etc.) OR you might not be allowed to use the e-passport system in the future. Typical…
        Our govt seems obsessed with gathering information on its citizens and controlling us, especially women’s “healthcare”, the lack of respect for our privacy and autonomy is shocking. Where will it end? A police state?

      • This is the most intense statement I’ve read regarding privacy violations. Whether it’s government or private sector, both are violated on a regular basis. Can you imagine the blackmail money making schemes?
        All about government control. All about our most sacred data. All about how it’s to be used against us w/o us knowing until it’s too late. This is about growth of knowledge, and it’s an End Times sign. Less personal control. More computers. Less cash, less privacy, less independent decision making. More big brother. Then, with the inevitable data breeches, we’re told we must have our own ID Chip. Starts with tracking oldsters. Best if we have it coded on our foreheads or R arms. Hitler tattooed Jews’ arms; it’s possible.
        Then our computerized health, banking, educational, employment, weapon ownership “data” can finally be made hack proof. Then we’re under total control. Follow orders or “you,” your number is placed on a detentional hold.
        Not all will see the ultimate end point that I describe. But what I see coming here is the loss of control we have on your own lives and those of our families. Already here in CA, USA, we have mandatory vaccinations. Mandatory “controls” brought compliments of Liberal Democrats social policies. Our freedoms taken away, supposedly to improve the herd. In US we call these “feel-good” laws. Makes somebody “feel good” about doing something but in fact causes no societal good but instead a tremendous amount of harm is spread around.
        Presently every gun tragedy in US brings Hillary, Obama, every feel-good Liberal wants “reasonable” gun control. Every scheme imaginable to harm the law abiding. Nothing that effects the criminals at all. Those of us following the law are set up as future victims while criminals are provided opportunities at future self-employment minus having to pay taxes.
        That’s exactly what these eHealth policies do.
        In an HMO such as Kaiser, fully computerized, any doctor can write sh!t in your file and the stink follows you the rest of your life. Doesn’t matter if it’s made up in retaliation or to cover their own mistakes. Or to give them a reason to deny care and save money.
        These suck everything in data houses leave no window to right a wrong or stop a vendetta. The doctors, and the government that pays them, gain more power and grow stronger at our expense. No doctor will ask the government to cancel the program and no politician will cancel out any demented procedure like a pelvic exam. Each stands to lose money.
        Take note. Liberal politicians in US wonder why Americans “cling” to their guns. The Revolutionary War began when the Brits made moves to confiscate the Colonists’ balls, powder, and muskets. Our freedoms, once taken, are gone forever. Our freedoms to control our own bodies are under final assault. Dig in and fight!

      • Elizabeth, Australian e-passport system is a blatant disregard of people’s privacy, and a danger to personal safety should the collected data be stolen or misused.
        I absolutely refuse to use e-passport or e-gates. The airport workers try to herd me into these machines every time I go in or out of the country. I refuse. I much rather say “hi” to a real person and have that person to look at me and compare my passport photo, instead of having my photograph taken by a machine, my face analysed, my documents scanned and all that data stored in some system forever. I am a human being and want to interact with human beings, not machines. The queue to a real human officer may take a few minutes longer, by my freedom and safety are worth it!

        At least, Australia is not forcing people to have their fingerprints scanned, not like USA, Japan or Korea. Not yet. But we are getting there, for our “safety and security” of course. I just wish more people realise that a war on terrorism and a battle for “national security” cannot be won, it is just a pretext to keep taking people’s liberties away and violating their privacy. If we don’t resist now, soon it will be too late. MyGov/ Australian ID/ implanted microchips / whatever will take care of tracking our movements, interactions and personal data. While eHealth system will take care of the surveillance of our bodies and internal organs.

      • I experienced this type of government control identity problems working at a recent federal election (Canada). The voters’ list had people’s ages on it for some reason. All I really needed was a name, address and if people had already voted. However the rules had changed from previous elections and everyone had to have id with their photo and address on it. Anyone without a driver’s licence had to produce something official with their address on it. A few older ladies came in with their passports, citizenship documents but we had to tell them to go home and get something with their address on it: a utility bill, phone bill or anything off a whole list. People were even allowed to show a bill on their cellphone. But some of these older ladies did not pay the bills in their name and it was absolutely outrageous having lived at the same address for decades they were having their right to vote challenged.

        So just saying you are who you are is not good enough and just telling a doctor your medical history or what you want in that office visit is not good enough either. I do not buy that all these e-medical records are needed for preventing patient fraud when I find the doctors are doing the most of it.

        These “screenings” for patients at risk are annoying as well as dangerous. I had a friend who stupidly answered questions about if she had a crib when her baby was born. She could not afford one (she had a basinet/cradle) and was hoping to get help with that. She was scolded and told that authorities could be contacted because she might have a sleeping arrangement that was unsafe for baby. She was really angry when she found out that mothers with newborns were matched up with family doctors (if they had none) and the doctor was paid a $350 bonus almost exactly what a new crib would cost. When is this bonus waste (bonuses for quotas on vaccinations; cervical,breast and colon screening, taking “difficult” case new patients) going to stop and the money used for patient care?

        I have also heard from “snowbirds” (older folk who live in Canada but spend their winters in warmer climates). They are careful about how long they stay away because it they are out of the country for more than 6 months (total) per year, even one day, their government health insurance can be cancelled. This is courtesy of the same technology that is supposed to keep out criminals and terrorists. It is about controlling people but it is about money. Even older folk with some health problem that is under-control are unable to vacation because the insurance costs more than the trip.

      • Moo, you are absolutely righ: most of what’s done within health care and other branches of government is about power, control, and money.

        We had the same situation with the election procedure in Australia: out of a sudden at the last election we had to bring photo ID or a proof of address. It was all fine without for over a century before.

        eHealth system is going to be another encroachment on people’s privacy and independence. It will become a perfect tool for the government to spy on people, to keep track of their private lives, to exert pressure regarding screening, and to make money of giving insurance companies access to people’s health info.

23. Moo: I hate to say it, but most any kind of “Anglo” or “Germanic” nation is acting like an asshole now. I notice there’s a lot of general antagonism & the backstory is that is simply their will to do so.

    As for your friend, she should just lie. Any time where they are asking a question, it should probably be seen as them looking for a “guilty condition.” They want something to nail someone on or something that they can lie about in some way to get an attack conveyed- since it’s easier to present a complete lie based on real situations than it is to entirely fabricate a story & stick to it convincingly.

24. I am very scared right now and would really appreciate some reassuring advice. My husband, though a wonderful man, is not very sympathetic and did not offer anything to make me feel better.

    I have always been terrified of gynecological exams…it first started when I was about 11 and I was taken to one. At the time, I wasn’t even sure what was going to happen but I knew I was fine with someone touching my private area because I hadn’t yet learned what a scary thing it was. The doctor was cold, cruel, rushed for time, and impatient. It was just an external exam (thankfully) but it screwed me up for life. I was fine in the beginning…but then…something came over me and I got REALLY uncomfortable with her touching me. I didn’t like the way it was making me feel, both physically and emotionally. So I tried scooching up the table…she got a very mad look on her face, grabbed my legs, and yanked me back towards her…while saying angrily, “stop moving around so much and leave your legs open.” I was frozen in fear the rest of the time, but later that night, I cried. I NEVER wanted that to happen again.

    Fast forward to about 25….I’m happily married, and on implanon. But sex starts to becoming painful because the implanon caused me to have dryness. I was terrified to go, but I was hoping the doctor would just give me some medicine to help the dryness, no exam needed. HAH. How naive I was. They tried to bully me into an exam…I started crying and shaking…you would think they would be kind and sensitive, but they weren’t. They told me I could have an infection and could die. They said all kinds of horrible things could be wrong with me and if I don’t get them treated, that I was irresponsible and was putting my health in danger. Now, I try and take very good care of myself…no smoking and maybe one or two drinks a year (I’m just not a drinker)…I exercise and eat healthy. So being told I wasn’t taking my health seriously hurt…because I was putting my mental health first and I knew what that exam would do. I talked to my husband…told him I knew my symptoms were because of the implanon, not any birth control, and I didn’t want an exam. He supported me. A few months later I decide to have it removed…and seriously, within 3 days, everything “down there” was back to normal. Sex was fun and painless again! I was very lucky.

    Fast forward to yesterday. I hadn’t been feeling “right” for a week or two, but couldn’t place why I was feeling that way. No abnormal aches or pains…just a feeling of something wasn’t right. With one exception…sometimes it burned “down there”. Not when I was urinating or anything, just sometimes when I was sitting on the couch or standing for long periods of time. If I moved positions or drank some water, it went away, so I thought it was nothing. I am fearful of doctors in general, mainly because of pap smear coercion, but it makes me not want to go see them for anything else. So I told myself I was fine, I wasn’t going unless I had more “physical” proof something wasn’t right. Well I got my answer Wednesday. I had blood in my urine. I still put off calling my doctor until Friday. I was told to go to triage at my health care clinic (a kind of urgent care system). They told me my leukocytes were high (which means I am fighting off an infection), and there was indeed blood still in my urine, but it wasn’t a UTI. They didn’t know what it was. But the doctor wanted me to schedule a follow up to have a pelvic exam. Which leads me to crying out for help…I am SO scared! I don’t want anyone touching me again…and it was so easy to brush it off when I knew nothing was wrong before, but this time, something IS wrong, and I’m still too terrified to go to a doctor. They told me to schedule my follow up at the desk as I left and I only pretended to…I asked the receptionist some questions about my prescription to make them think I was scheduling an appointment (the nurse was still out in the lobby and could see me), and then left. Please…is there ANY other way they could see where my infection is? Like a blood test? I am worried about traumatizing myself again if I have to go through another exam…and this one will be MUCH more invasive than the external that traumatized me when I was so young…

    • Hi Jen. Your experience sounds awful and I am so glad you found your way here. You have the right to refuse any exam you don’t want. So what if docs and nurses make you feel bad – stuff them. They don”t count one bit. Are they sat with you now saying these things? I bet not. They are nothing to you now. Because now you have found your way here you are a new woman now. Strong. Independent. Sure of herself. Read all the posts here and grow in knowledge and confidence.
      When we are ill the first thing we do is rush off to the docs. This is often the worst thing a woman can do. Search the internet for answers and treat yourself with natural herbs. It sounds as if you have a water infection so drink a lot of water until you flush it through.
      I had implanon and it was rubbish of course they won’t tell you this when they are putting it in. But it causes probs for lots of women.
      It will take a few weeks to leave your system so be kind to yourself. Wait and see if you get better. Take time out to heal your body and mind.
      I’m so glad you found us. You ard so welcome here and we will do all we can to help you. And heal you.
      X

    • Hi Jen,
      From what I understand, your discomfort with exams is hardly rare! If you ever truly need an exam, I hope you can find a clinic with staff that are caring and sensitive. They DO exist – but unfortunately, you’ve had bad luck with your care providers.

      As for your current problem (note I am not a medical professional), I too think that given the circumstances you should relax and see if it goes away on its own. This is a perfectly valid course of action. Despite what the clinic said, it sounds like an infection (they can’t detect all infections at the lab). Your body knows how to clear it, just as it knows how to clear a cold! And just like with a cold, discomfort and mild fever/aches is to be expected but is temporary.

      Drink A LOT of fluids, and try including cranberry juice or supplements. The juice works (and it DOES work!) by preventing bacteria from clinging inside you.

      If you get worse, or run a high fever (unlikely), you may wish to try a clinic again – a different one, of course! But you will likely heal on your own. Keep us posted.

      Best wishes,
      ~Wendy

      • Hi Treefrog (love your name)
        Welcome to the forum.
        Yes, Cat&Mouse is right, the Q is: are you HPV- or HPV+?
        Given your profile, I’ll bet you’re HPV- and cannot benefit from pap testing, MOST women your age ARE HPV-
        Your age might be a factor too, I know a few women who produced an “abnormal” pap test in their 50’s after years of normal pap tests. (usually around menopause or post-menopause) Also, the pap test can be very painful after menopause and the exam itself can cause damage, some older women are left sore and bleeding.
        These “abnormal” results were all false positives, probably caused by the pap test picking up normal changes in the cervix. (or due to the damage caused by the test itself, bleeding can cause a false positive)
        False positives are a risk at any age, but especially when you’re under 30, pregnant, up to a year after childbirth, when you’re menopausal or post-menopausal. (so infections, inflammation, (condoms, tampons) trauma (childbirth etc.) hormonal changes (pregnancy, menopause) and perfectly normal changes in the young and maturing cervix.
        Young women produce LOTS of false positives, especially those under 25 – it’s the pap test picking up transient and harmless infections and perfectly normal changes in the maturing cervix. This is why countries like Finland and The Netherlands do not offer pap testing to those under 30 OR HPV testing. (about 40% would test HPV+, but young women usually clear the virus over a year or two, but age 30 only about 5% are HPV+, these are the only women who should be offered a 5 yearly pap test) Pap and HPV testing our young women just leads to grief for many of them, we know it, but so many countries continue to pressure young women to test, like Australia, America, Canada, Germany etc.

        Our bodies change…normal changes, the pap test often calls it “abnormal”.

        You can test yourself for HPV, I know women who’ve used the Delphi Screener, (the self-test device invented by the Dutch) all of the results were HPV-, they were all 45+ and either single or in a monogamous relationship. These women have all dropped out of pap testing and most won’t bother with HPV testing again, they’re confident they won’t acquire a new infection.
        One has decided to test one final time at age 60, she feels it can’t hurt and will further reassure her, after years of pap test drama, many women need that reassurance. Women have been trained to greatly fear this always-fairly-rare cancer and not to trust their asymptomatic body.
        About 95% of women aged 30 to 60 are HPV- and most are having unnecessary pap tests, all they do is expose themselves to the risk of a false positive, excess colposcopy/biopsy and over-treatment.
        It’s horrifying your doctor mentioned a hysterectomy…but sadly, IMO, the female body isn’t valued and respected by many in medicine, it’s viewed as a potential site for cancer, you don’t need it anymore so why not get rid of it? I find that an abhorrent attitude, I greatly value my cervix, uterus and ovaries as I do every other part of my body.

        A FP can mean re-testing, biopsies, treatments etc. It’s plain cruel to put women through these procedures when a quick test would give them the information they need to make an informed decision. Of course, the profession makes a fortune dragging all women into this testing, investigating “abnormal” results and from over-treatment.
        The fact is pap testing should only be offered to the roughly 5% of women who are HPV+, everyone else should be left alone. HPV+ women aged 30 to 60 are the only women with a small chance of benefiting from a pap test, everyone else is just exposing themselves to risk.
        HPV Today, Edition 24, will give you all the information you need on HPV and HPV self-testing.
        HPV- women need to stand firm, some doctors will say you still need pap testing, some are clueless, others are deliberately deceiving you.
        HPV- women cannot benefit from pap testing, but can be harmed, end of story. It’s the story they don’t want you to know, it’s the story that supports their multi-million/billion dollar medical industry. (it’s billions in the States)
        It’s the test itself, the pap test, that’s created this highly lucrative industry in the over-treatment of CIN, made even more profitable by screening the wrong way to produce even more false positives – early, too frequent and inappropriate screening.

        It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic, an American woman on a health forum was concerned about her abnormal pap test. I asked her a few questions, turned out she had a full hysterectomy (for benign fibroids) 10 years ago but her doctor had continued to recommend annual pap testing – that would be interesting, colposcopy and biopsy on a non-existent cervix! I assume they would have swabbed her vaginal vault and sent her away none the wiser. This is not medical care, it’s medical abuse.

      • Thanks for your input Elizabeth! Yes, I looked up the statistics you refer to – ha! – 95% of women my age do not have high-risk HPV. I’m feeling better every minute. Thanks girls. I am going to keep a lid on this situation and proceed very conservatively. Would be nice if I could wrangle HPV testing somehow. Thanks for the references and links.
        ~Wendy

      • I can’t believe that an HPV test hasn’t already been done by your doctors and is sitting in your notes somewhere. In the UK they’ve just started to roll out HPV testing as the test which decides who should be recalled or not. To the best of my knowledge, any abnormal pap result is then checked for the HPV status. If HPV negative they go back to normal 3 yearly recall, even if the pap is abnormal. Only those who are also HPV positive get recalled.

        Of course, the HPV test is the one that should be done first by the woman, with a self test if she wishes, (which is what will happen in the Netherlands next January), but that would be the end of the lucrative vagina business if they did that, so HPV testing is being withheld in Anglophone countries.

    • First off- it’s your body, your rules. For advice, maybe some observations would help:

      Right off the bat, properties don’t change by designation- just like if a doctor poisons someone with a needle, it’s still murder. This is an interface with a sexual area (specifically, a penetrative one) as a product of someone else’s decision-making, which is an attack. “Iatrogenic attack” isn’t a well-known term, but an attack using medical methodologies is completely possible. An assaultive action is not limited to cliche settings or methods (after all, someone doesn’t need to be in a stairwell or be attacked by someone wearing a ski mask).

      Their tactics range across a broad spectrum, but seem to largely revolve around a few things:
      (1) Coercion (“you don’t get this without that”- seems to be illegal with birth control, as well as in other cases). There’s no physical force involved, but that’s why “coercion” & “wrestling” are different words.
      (2) Deception (since deception vitiates consent, it’s not someone making their own decisions if someone’s lying to them & they do so frequently omit details like risks, inaccuracies, and alternatives).
      (3) Physical Force. Seems to more common in a delivery room, but there are cases where they don’t stop when they’re directed to & even take liberties with unconscious people.
      (4) Gaslighting. Discrediting someone to themselves. Usually trying to get someone to doubt that their assessments are accurate.
      (5) Presentation. They talk too quick for someone to think, go from one thing to another so there’s no time for refusal, use statements instead of questions (making it hard for someone to figure out what to say, since statements usually follow questions- there’s no “attachment point” for their words- also makes things more confrontational, because someone has to directly cut out whatever it is they’re looking to do).

      Also presenting things as a “fixed situation” (as if there exists no capacity for reality to “unfurl” any other way- bullshit, since an action has to be ENGAGED in order to occur). Frequently, they say what they “will” be doing or what someone’s “going to be having.” You have some experience with this, I think.

      Simple comportment would be another- where they just tell someone to do this or that. Readying equipment, aligning themselves to do whatever action they’re intent on, sometimes actually starting to pull off someone’s clothes or push them down. This is actually something of a subtle tactic, simply because it’s so direct someone wouldn’t even think of it.

      Playing stupid or acting like someone else is. Exactly what it sounds like- they act like they don’t grasp “sexual dissonance” (something being “against the grain” on that level) or that components of a methodology don’t cease to exist in their own right. Pretending that someone is immature, stupid, or crazy for having bodily autonomy, self-protectiveness (even against unconventional attacks), or for thinking compositionally (that a situation is what it consists of).

      [This is kind of related to gaslighting, but since it’s how they present things, I figured I’d put it under “Presentation.”]

      Flat-out ignore any of their prompting, however hard that might be (no offense, but women seem to have a harder time with confrontation & are more easily guilt-tripped or made to feel defective).

      Walking out right whenever you start feeling pushed or they start getting confrontational- this is without “running it by them” (like bringing up “I’m going to leave”- there’s no need to put it forth for consideration, because it doesn’t matter what their stance on it is). Sometimes it’s a bit of a habit to “excuse yourself,” so it’s worth mentioning- as they’ll probably ask “Why?” if you tell them that you’re leaving (trying to “kick the chair out from under your actions,” since they’ll likely judge the reasons for your decision to be sub-par in some way- to undermine your initiative by gaslighting you). They try to supplant people like a friggin’ cult leader (“I am the wellspring from which you flow”- Conan the Barbarian, 1982).

      Reality doesn’t take a coffee break for doctors, so to people saying “It’s not like that, it’s a doctor” a good reply would be “It’s not like what, reality?”

      Outright saying “There’s no cessation of existential dynamics for medical personnel” would probably scare the hell out of them if they started trying to pull a “Jedi Mind Trick” & say something “It’s okay, I’m a doctor.” Same deal with saying that it’s “iatrogenic assualt” if they were to impose this situation or that “altruism doesn’t produce ownership” (when they say “they only want to help” or that they “just want what’s best for you”). Also that “groundless lawsuits are an occupational hazard for medical personnel / a risk for everyone, not just medical personnel” (like if they start talking about how they’d “be at risk for a lawsuit if they didn’t ( ____ ),” as if they’re not liable for what they do).

    • Jen I’m so sorry to hear about your troubles lovey…my best guesses of possible problems would be a prolapse (implants can cause them sometimes) or an immune response.

      I hope I don’t seem intrusive by asking this but have you had any trouble going #2? is sex currently painful for you? If your man uses his fingers does he notice anything different than before? Any bumps/ bulges/swelling you didn’t have before? If yes maybe look into prolapse more…if no then my other guess (and probably more likely of the 2) would be irritation from having the implant removed. many MANY women have it move around and scrape or sometimes attach to the uterus. Even if the scraping (possibly done during removal) or attachment is minor it will trigger an immune response from your body which would explain the white cells and blood but no infection.

      PLEASE BE AWARE I am NOT a trained medical professional but I do know a few things about herblore and I can recommend some things that may help you feel better regardless of whether or not you get a definitive diagnosis.

      try taking turmeric as it is a known anti inflammatory and may ease the irritation/ inflammation. And learn to make yourself some tea 🙂 And anyone else is welcome to use this. Get a large jar like a mason jar or a small pitcher and fill it about 2/3 full of boiling water. Add a teaspoon of each of these herbs: Goldenseal, yarrow, nettle, uva ursi (bearberry), blue violet- these herbs are astringents known to help flush various illnesses, nourish with powerful antioxidant compounds and tone tissues with mucous membranes. a tablespoon of Echinacea and heaping tbl raspberry leaf- rasp. is well known supporting female systems and Ech. is a well known healer and immune support. .

      Cap the jar and let the tea steep for 10- 15 mins. strain out the herbs and pour back into the jar. Keep it in the fridge and don’t use the microwave to heat it as they can destroy some of the beneficial compounds. dilute 1:1 with water and use filtered water if you can. Add some honey if you like as it’s not particularly pleasant tasting. Drink this 1-2x a day for no more than 3 wks at a time and then take a break for 1wk. these herbs are easily found online (i buy them from ebay)or in natural health food type shops and are relatively cheap. You may feel a rush of heat and sweat a little for up to an hour or so after drinking this tea as the yarrow/goldenseal/ uva ursi can stimulate your immune system (almost like a fever). You may also pee more as these herbs are meant to cleanse and can have a slightly diuretic effect. Don’t worry just drink plenty of water to stay hydrated.

      My final piece of wisdom for you darling is to not strictly/blindly follow my advice. Do your own research, find out what works best for you. If this doesn’t help and you’re not feeling better in a few weeks (probably by the new year i’d say) then it might be a good time to decide about going back to the dr. Just understand that if you do, you’ll probably feel better about it than you did before because you will know that you need the help, that it’s not just for their fancy, and because it is your choice, not someone saying you have to.

      And also plz accept my apologies for the info overload haha and know that I meant it all with the utmost respect 🙂 Good luck!

      • First off, I wanted to say thank you all so very much for all your kind advice and comments. I feel so much better! Especially after having a therapy session yesterday with my awesome, sympathetic therapist. I am actually lucky to have a very kind and caring gynecologist…she has not examined me and never pressures me into anything. What I was told on Friday came from a different clinic. They were not forceful and seemed very kind, I just panic at the idea of pelvic exams.

        My implanon (a birth control implant that goes in your arm) was removed in May 2014…so it’s been about a year and a half. That’s nearly as long as I suffered with the damn thing, I hated it, but I feared getting pregnant so I didn’t have it removed for a long time.

        For Emily…I do not mind your questions at all, I sincerely appreciate your advice. 🙂 To be honest, most of the time I have trouble going #2…but I noticed since I began antibiotics on Friday, it has gotten easier. I’m not sure why. Unfortunately I cannot ask my husband if I feel any different because he is deployed and has been gone for five months…but, I can answer that masturbation has not been painful.

        We have some health food shops in our area, and I will definitely go see if they carry some of these herbs! Thank you so much! I do quite enjoy hot tea (I drink oolong tea every morning) so I look forward to trying more!

      • I’m glad you’re able to talk freely about masturbating. Equally happy for you that you’re able to w/o pain. When my pain meds suppressed my hormones, I even lost the desire to enjoy that. My smell that my husband craves–gone. He was able to tell which part of my cycle I was on just from smelling my pants or panties each day.
        We probably are a bit different as a couple. I don’t have anybody to compare. However, I’m happy that he’s so into me, that he cares so much.
        The most heartbreaking was when my labia and clitoris shrunk up and disappeared. Yeah, both gone. Then it hurt to even try and have sex. Stupid gyn says, “Oh, it’s ll normal…” Guest Jen, he Rx’s Estrace Cream for me. I refused Premarin. Didn’t want the side-effects from horse urine.
        I had to see a Dermatologist to get topical testosterone to restore my clitoris. Gyn refused it. Imagine that, ok?
        Here’s the kicker. My hormones were ZERO across the board. Gyn says, “Normal.”
        How am I to think if sex, get horny, arouse & lubricate, be able to accept my husband w/o pain, and climax? Husband told the doctor nothing was normal. He is medically educated and quick to speak. Better than I am. He threw all this back to the doctor and asked him to validate how “zero” can add up to “normal.” Long story short. He added how disappointing sex was for him.
        Have you experienced any of this? Wish I could find somebody who has.
        I also told this to my female Internist. Her reaction was that for her and her husband, sex was not a priority anymore. So, that’s how it should be for us too? My husband feels what when we lose the ability to enjoy each other, then we’re pretty much waiting to die. He doesn’t buy into the Golden Years theory. Where are the rest of you on this?

      • Guest Jen: It’s also possible to find decent herbs online sometimes. I know Rosemary Gladstar has several good herb books (one of them is “Herbal Healing for Women” & there’s a general-use one called “Herbal Recipes for Vibrant Health”). Sorry, I forgot to mention it yesterday.

        In truth, simply because doctors (at least in this part of the world) like to attach riders to things when it comes to treatment & because something doesn’t have to be useless to be an issue (if it works at all, an increasingly bigger “IF”), it’s a good idea to be able to handle things yourself.

        Also, at some point, everybody dies. Even if they didn’t, quality of life would still be an important thing- losing “custody” of yourself is a problem on that level on its own. Them adding on their own accord or your choices being undermined by other people’s “grading standards,” for instance.

25. Hi All,
    [sorry, I posted this in page 1 of this topic – I now see it belongs here]
    Sue, thank you for this terrific site! It’s a relief to arrive here.

    My story is brief, but it pertains both to the accuracy of PAP smear results (pretty bad) and the quality of doctors (so far, mine seems pretty good). Let’s see what everyone thinks.

    I’ve had regular PAPs since I was 20 and went on the pill – then had the unnecessary yearly PAPs each year to renew my prescription. Then, after I went off the pill when I was 30, I got one every 3 to 5 years – all normal.

    Now I am 50. Good health, non-smoker, monogamous (hence few risk factors for cervical cancer). Went for a PAP (thinking that it was a good idea since it had been 4.5 years) and my family doc later informed me it was abnormal and referred me to a gyn for colposcopy. Referral got lost and I had to follow it up myself, but I didn’t hurry, thinking “good it was delayed – may have given any abnormalities a chance to go away!”. So after 6 months saw the gyn. He did a new PAP, and then colposcopy with biopsy and ECC (endocervical curettage). I didn’t mind the procedure, but I understand a lot of woman do. Gyn said he could not see anything alarming, took a biopsy of one small spot that was probably nothing, just for the sake of doing one, and said that I shouldn’t worry. Also reassured me that many paps give false positives.

    Six weeks later (this week) I go in for results, and lab (which is downstairs) has not sent PAP result to gyn yet, so I wait an extra 1.5 hours. Many apologies from doc and nurse. Finally get results: cervical biopsy entirely normal – yay!, ECC entirely normal – yay! … but new PAP: HSIL! What?

    Gyn explains that obviously cytology and histology do not match – not even close.

    Pointing out firstly that “we do not have to follow the guidelines,” he tells me the guideline for this kind of non-matching cytology vs. histology is cold-knife conization, and explains what that is. As a different option, he says that some women are so concerned about cancer risk that, in my shoes (and my age), they ask to go straight to hysterectomy (“what?” I’m thinking). Moving right along, he then explains that on the OTHER end of the spectrum (or speculum – ha ha – my joke), it’s perfectly reasonable to “watch and wait” and have another colposcopy etc. in three months’ time.

    “That’s the one!” I said.

    I am pleased that he did not try to pressure me into surgery. He actually seemed relieved and perked up when I chose watch and wait. I have my next appointment in February, for another colpo and ECC.

    I’ve since educated myself and learned that 50% of HSIL paps are false positives, and of those that DO accurately indicate CIN2+ on proven histology, at most 20% of those will ever (in the fullness of time) progress to cancer.

    I know my girlfriends would gasp in horror that I’m walking around watching and waiting when I’ve had an HSIL pap. Glad I can post here. With my gyn checking me in three months, I feel there’s virtually no chance that anything big will be going on “up there” that isn’t caught early. And the fact that both visual inspection with colposcope, AND biopsy AND ECC were negative persuades me that my HSIL result is probably one of the 50% that are actually simple inflammation.

    Anyway, that’s my story – and despite my confidence, I’d love for you all to reassure me that I’m not crazy. I scrupulously avoid letting anyone hack off perfectly good bits of me. I dodged this a few years ago when I had a tiny Stage 1 melanoma on my leg (found by me). Had it off, and result was thin melanoma – you don’t ignore this, but treatment is supposed to be conservative. Uninformed docs wanted to do invasive lymph node excision. Inappropriate, and not in the standard of care for what I’d been diagnosed with (simple skin excision is what I requested and eventually got, and had to fight to have the 5-minute procedure done with a local instead of with a general – sheesh!), but I had to fight them off! It was very alarming!

    This time it’s different – my doc seems to support my conservative approach. I’m hoping that I can get the next PAP test (or the one after that…) to match the clean biopsy results. Vitamins (folic acid, vit. A) here I come.

    Thanks for reading – comments more than welcome.

    ~Wendy (in Canada)

    • I’ve got news for you TreeFrog; I hope you take it seriously. My husband’s cousin lived in Toronto. She had a mole under her tongue the size of a pencil tip. It was melanoma and she suffered a horrible death. The medical “fix” was worse than the disease. She lived 18 more months unable to eat solid food, taste, she lost her teeth as well.
      My husband works in nursing. After many years, I finally consented to having two moles removed. One from my nipple, the other from my arm. Both came back highly atypia. I had to go back for margin clearing. Lost 1/3 of my nipple but reconstructive laser treatment has reshaped the collagen.
      Your body, like mine, has a tendency to create these moles that go crazy. I’m disabled and can’t tolerate sunlight. We have something in common.
      Regarding colposcopy. Please pay special attention to this too. My husband found this site for me trying to search for an alternative to pap. What we learned here, he verified by reviewing med school texts and questioning my gyn. The gyn verified the entire pelvic is useless w/o even knowing he did. The gyn verified everything the you’ll learn here too.
      Consider learning these things your second birthday.
      For one thing, did your doctor tell you whether or not you have HPV? Sounds like he hasn’t even requested your pap to be tested for that.
      The pap is 53% accurate. Are you amazed? Your specimen is NOT tested for HPV unless it’s both abnormal and the doctor requests it. I was floored to learn these facts. You know, w/o HPV you can’t get cervical cancer.
      There is a sarcoma type cancer that grows from deep within, usually metastisized from elsewhere. Doctors claim pap check for this, but it can’t. The computers that read your slides, and the pathologists who “sometimes” resample slides manually, can’t detect it either. That cancer will reveal itself through other symptoms long before it reaches your cervix.
      Back to pap. Hubby found Trovagene, which I forced my doctor to Rx for. The company is based in San Diego CA; phone is 858-952-7570; their public relations specialist is Brittany Gream at 858-952-7655. Or http://www.trovagene.com or info@trovagene.com or bgream@trovagene.com The cost coded for insurance billing #87621; cost is $140US with insurance or $120US cash. How is the exchange rate right now?
      You collect a sample of your first morning urine. Send it in via FedEx. Two weeks later, using PCR technology and anti-body p/u you get the results. 93% accurate and if you have it they automatically tell you which strain!
      Now re colposcopy. If you had a cut finger with a contaminated knife, would you clean it by scraping with a non-sterile wooden spatula? Something anybody could have played with before it was used on you? Staff handles these w/o gloves. The whole thing is set up that way.
      My point, if you have the virus, the spatula simply spreads it deep while scraping away your single protective layer of cells. That colpo brush? Your cervical mucus insulates your endocervical canal from virus. That brush carries the virus straight to rich tissues where you can’t fight it off.
      Doctors fail to tell us that.
      The colposcope and biopsy BS? Likewise, that endocervical “cheese grater” (yes, take a look at on youtube video of colposcope–the doctor is rough as can be while being totally glib in his voiceover), simply turns your tender endocervical tissue into ground meat. The doctor harvests a chunk of blood clot afterward for the lab. Now you know why we say it hurts so bad. Would a doctor do that to the inside of his urethra? NO! Again, if you’re infected, look how far it was just spread.
      This is why, the next step, cold knife or LEEP. Both are amputations. What is taken, cut off, does NOT grow back. Expect issues from then on with your uterus and cervix. They say it’s another biopsy/treatment (whhaaat!!) and mere millimeters are what keep your reproductive system intact or force you to hysterectomy. Notice how doc said some go straight to that radical treatment?
      The biopsy that’s chomped off your cervix w/o local anesthesia. Watch that on youtube too. Again, if you have something it will spread it deeper. Like how cancer takes off after a biopsy. You disturb it, cells flake off and travel to a new home.
      Years ago before I met my husband, my ex gave me HPV. Or so I believe. I was told I had dysplasia. Where?
      My husband obtained my records and personally reviewed the hand-drawn sketch (1970’s) of my cervix and where the problem was.
      The dysplasia was exactly in the pattern where that spatula is scraped. How does the infection seem to “grow” in that pattern? I had it in a single place and a Planned Parenthood nurse spread it around my cervix during a pap. PP didn’t check for CC back then; only VD or STI or STD whatever you want to call it. That’s how, I was told, I was further along.
      I had cryosurgery. Be sure you check out the video on that too. If you have that, and doc says the cold provides its own anesthesia, pay attention to the videos. One woman is experiencing such cramping while the probe is inserted the camera is moved away. Same happens during the treatments. A three minute freeze, then thaw, then freeze again. And the cramps when you stand up? Hey hey very intense childbirth pangs. Insist on a local, and IV sedation or pills. The “take two Advil 15 minutes before” is a placebo nothing more.
      Also, if a endometrial biopsy is suggested, only consent if that’s done under IV and local. Doctors will claim the 30 seconds of pain and it’s over. More like a minute of pain far, far, far worse than childbirth.
      There is a chiropractor in Chicago IL who treats CC or cervix issues w/o invasive destruction. He’s so popular and successful his website offers which hotels are good to stay at for those who fly in. He has pictures before and after.
      If you have disease, you treat it topically. The desired result is escharing. This is where the surface tissue is killed and the body sloughs it off. If I had to do it over, I’d go see him.
      Most of all–and this is for Jen too. NEVER go alone.
      Order your husband or someone you trust to go with you. Ask lots of questions b/c they won’t give you anything close to informed consent. If they say “uncomfortable” understand it will HURT!
      Read this: Correspondence. http://www.thelancet.com Vol 364 October 23, 2004. pgs 1483-1484 “Harms And Benefits Of Screening To Prevent Cervical Cancer.”
      It says “in the ever married (mortality) declined substantially.” The study also seriously knocks the overscreening, overtreatment, and the issues they cause. It even knocks the useless prostate screening.
      If you are asymptomatic, you don’t need screening. A monogamous relationship is a safe one.
      Personally, i’d like to see doctor’s offices tested. How many infections are transmitted because of poor office instrument hygiene and poor hand washing? Your dentist’s chair, anything you touch in that room is thoroughly wiped down with alcohol. Why not the place where your bare ass goes? That tissue paper supposed to offer protection?
      In my own experiences, my husband before marriage insisted he accompany me, against my wishes, or else we were over. He was right. Twice he has prevented me from a pep/pelvic when the doctor was doing it for his own thrills.
      We have also learned that ovaries can only be felt in a skinny young girl. Those of us bearing children? Perhaps they can feel our cervix and one inch of our uterus’. That’s it. Young women get most thorough exams while older women who could have issues are barely touched. Questions regarding our sex practices are asked with like intensity. Re both, why? For thrills.
      Last, having a female provider does not mean all will go well. Read experiences here.
      Thanks for your patience, and also for those who’ve heard me say these things before.
      This is the best go-to site for objective female reproductive discussion and info gathering.

    • Dear Wendy TreeFrog,
      IF you do consent to additional colposcopy, consider this. Presently, your cervix has been traumatized. It is in an inflammatory state. Three months is barely enough time for that single layer of epithelial cells to regenerate. You likely will come out as abnormal. Wait at least six months. If you have disease, remember is is slow moving. Takes at least 1-1/2 years to overcome your immune system (unless helped along by pap scrape) and 5 yrs to mature to actual disease. Why rush?
      Funny how they describe “cold knife biopsy or conization” as something so benign when it isn’t
      Ask doctor to explain the pap results; demand an actual pathologist to reread the slide.
      Remember however, anything slightly abnormal will be marked with original Dx because they don’t trust that with correct Dx you’ll still obey their commands. They’ll lose money & entertainment.
      Find out if you have HPV! If not, then demand the gyn bus to hell stop and jump out!
      When you rebel, expect doctor to use the “you’ll die” excuse and also turn to your spouse and ask their help. Yeah, the person they want to keep out of the exam room will suddenly be asked to help bully you into submission when it’s the doctor’s objective, and not in your best interests.
      Remember, are you being given full information so you can make an informed consent decision?
      How I’d like to get us together with Ben Carson MD. I’d like to see if he has an open mind or not.

    • You can only get cervical cancer if you have the HPV virus, so surely you need to ask them if you have the HPV virus or not? If you are HPV negative, I’d stop worrying and not go back.

    • Wendy TreeFrog. From your standpoint, if you would please share, what did the ECC feel like? It’s been a very long time, 25yrs, since I endured a colposcopy. It seems my mind has blocked 95% of it out and I can’t recall much at all.
      Besides what it felt like, where do you rate the pain on the 1-10 scale, with #10 being the worse imaginable? Did the MD numb you first? Did it take long? How did you feel afterward? Cramping that night?
      Have you had endometrial biopsy? That procedure is what got my husband busy looking for any alternative possible. There’s a very interesting youtube video re this. Shows how it should be done vs lying to us and putting us through stirrup hell.

      • Hi Cat&Mouse, and all,
        First off, I did not know I was getting an ECC (and this, of course, is not right). The gyn explained colposcopy and cervical punch biopsy, and said he would do a PAP test and then colpo/bio. I recall that once I was on the table, this is what I experienced (but I could be foggy on the order):

        1. PAP test (he said now I’m doing the PAP test, his nurse handed him stuff and he mentioned “broom and brush.” I just felt the usual mild pap test sensations.
        2. He tells me he’s swabbing the cervix with vinegar. I just felt a little tickling sensation and wetness. He looks through the scope, says he doesn’t see much that concerns him. Maybe just a tiny spot that he will biopsy since it’s the only thing there.
        3. He takes the biopsy. I feel a pinchy sensation (maybe a 4, pain-wise, but very brief) and slight cramp.
        4. He said, “now I will collect some cells from up where I can’t see.” More handing back and forth of stuff, and kind of a twisty, pinchy sensation (again maybe a 4 but lasted a few seconds) with a more sustained mild cramp afterwards. This, I gather NOW, was the ECC, since ECC appeared on the biopsy results I saw at my appointment last week. It also jives with what I understand now about ECC sample collection – they stick in a little tube-like thing and twist it to get a sheet of epithelium.

        Since I thought I’d only had PAP and one punch biopsy, I was puzzled as to why I bled quite significantly that day and for four days afterwards. I’m not pleased that I was not told about the ECC.

        As for how the ECC felt, for me, it was not a big deal – probably would have felt worse if I knew what he was up to – but that was not his call to make!

        Also, although I’ve asked twice, he has dodged telling me what the original PAP test result from my family doctor’s office was, that initiated this whole thing. The Ontario Cervical Cancer screening registry sent me a letter saying I had “mild changes” that required follow-up either with my family doc or a gyno. So my family doc sent me for colpo. Second PAP was HSIL (high-grade changes). Colpo, biopsy and ECC are clear. So here we are.
        ~Wendy

      • Wendy TreeFrog Please do yourself a favor. Enter youtube video colposcopy. That’s all you need. It’s demeaning that he says “broom & brush.” Doing housekeeping and dusting? Another name for D&C, dusting and cleaning.
        When you see what occurred when he did the ECC procedure, you’ll know why you weren’t told in advance “what” he was going to do. When you watch it being done, you’ll understand why you bled for four days. This is no “one-pass” cell extraction. The ECC destroys your EC lining. Completely.
        Again, if one has a skinned knee, would you clean it with a wooden spatula? Same for the EC. Why use a grater on it? It is tissue destruction. If infection is present, it’s now embedded deep within the tissues. When you see it happening, you’ll want answers. As I did when I saw it.
        I hope you prevail in getting the original results. I’m very curious to know why doc wasn’t willing to disclose upon request.
        A four day bleed is proof of tissue destruction.
        The doctor saw your cervix move, as it does along with your uterus, when a cramp occurs.
        If you happen to discuss hysterectomy, ask him if you may, if losing the cervix and uterus effects orgasmic pleasure negatively. Thank you.

      • The ECC gadget is steel, rectangular, and is lined with sharp blades. The idea is to move it in-out rapidly throughout the EC while applying pressure to all sides and while also rotating. It causes tissue to go against the blades where it is sliced off exactly like a cheese grater.
        Hope it’s cleaned thoroughly and autoclaved.
        The ObamaCare nonsense about pap is meant to blunt Republican desires to do away with ObamaCare.

26. Thanks for the input, all. I am in Ontario and there is no HPV testing here. I’d love to find out that I’m negative! Will explore other avenues. Good advice re: waiting 6 months before another biopsy. Thanks again.
    ~Wendy

    • No HPV testing in Canada, that protects their lucrative pap industry and over-treatment.
      Here in Australia we’ll move to HPV testing in 2017 but we’ll do it the wrong way so there will still be a lot of profit in the program for vested interests. We’ll test from age 25 so that means 40% of young women will be caught to start with…we’ll continue to test too often, send HPV+ women for colposcopy/biopsy (when they should simply be offered a pap test) and continue with testing until women are 72 or 74.
      So not as good as the last business model, but should still generate great money, of course, it’s a lousy deal for women.
      We had an opportunity to do the right thing and introduce an evidence-based program, NO, vested interest won again. You only have to do BASIC research to find HPV testing is not a good idea before age 30…we’ll test from 25.

    • Wendy, if you travel, you can use the Delphi Screener in Singapore or the Netherlands. I know Canada is strict with imports, a poster here had her Pills seized by customs, so I assume if you ordered the Delphi Screener online, that might happen too.
      It’s worth sending off some emails though…Delphi Bioscience is the relevant company.
      The urine test used by Cat & Mouse might be easier for you to source, or a quick trip to the States might be in order.
      Good luck!

    • First Moo. In the States, it’s illegal to ask for ID’s to vote. You must have ID for everything else though. Conservatives have brought up time and again that we need to change the laws. Liberals scream discrimination. Liberal media coddles them and gives life to their false claims. Elections here are automatically rigged. Illegal aliens openly vote, and they vote often at different polling places. As do other minorities. The dead aren’t removed from voting rolls. In CA now, having a drivers’ license is automatically tied to voting. Some cities have allowed illegals to be sworn into elected office. It’s an empty claim that minorities would be hurt by an ID requirement. Just the opposite in fact. Fairness to everybody which is what our Constitution is for. ID’s would remove suspicion about fraud. My husband is a poll worker. He refuses to work certain areas because what he sees, how it’s ignored by the Registrar, makes him so angry.
      Wendy TreeFrog. Some info re pap; how they’re processed. Perhaps why your colpo came back negative while the pap came back red flags attached. Elizabeth is right talking about hormonal changes in the very young 45. It’s how the test is read. We validated this reading a med school text. Years ago this was subject to a newspaper expose.
      In beginning days, people were hired to hover over microscopes. They were replaced by computers with algorithms. Programmed to “recognize” certain cells; exclude all others as suspect. Herein lies the key to 53% accuracy. Excluding blood, mucus, poor collection, etc, the computer cannot differentiate between cells a young or old cervix can produce. Nor those from the uterus vs cervix.
      Understand as I previously said, a single layer of epithelial cells on your cervix is what’s scraped away as the “sample or biopsy.” Which is why it hurts and why we spot. I’ve already commented on the colpo brush. Know any women who miscarried after pap while just becoming pregnant?
      A young maturing cervix, pregnancies, a woman in any state of menopause, produces different shaped cells than the “norm.” The computer does not look for virus or for cancer. It looks at cell shapes. How big is the nucleus? Are there other like cells present? Or are there immature or overly mature cells there too? What about other types of cells? Inflammation from infection or sex? Periods-endometrial sloughing-those cells can really screw it up. The computer counts what it sees as normal or outside the set “norm,” and sets a score.
      You can be perfectly normal (post colpo), but it scores you as malignant or HSIL etc.
      The machine is supposed to pick slides for resampling. A certified pathologist is supposed to pick samples for manual sampling. All to make things fit the “average,” 53% accuracy. False positives and negatives are accepted. Which is also why women are screened so often.
      If you’re outside the average, you’re screwed; and will be flagged for retest or colposcopy.
      Ask your doctor. Can you see how 53% is the best they can do? You are living proof of the harm caused. Get a scared woman w/o advocate in with a “happy” doctor and tragedy results.
      As for post hysterectomy women being pap’d repeatedly? Yes. I know of a woman… And yet we’re ordered to “do it” with an attitude as if we should be grateful.
      Pathologists, instead of clearing false-positive slides, allow them to remain flagged or even upgrade the false-positive Dx (defensive medicine-afraid of malpractice) thinking it will force all parties to an exam room to verify the cervix. Useless, even harmful medicine. Husbands will be pressured even more to be kept out of the room where a smart guy like my husband would ask a lot of questions. How many women are trained to understand this? Liberal media runs stories of attractive young women, “suffering” from an ovarian cyst, who are thoroughly tested and “saved from death” by their gyn. 2013 was the last time a US network ran this BS. We watched it, pissed at the doctor and sympathetic to the very attractive but scared slender young woman. Hate to imagine what she consented to. It was thorough beyond imagination.
      Tell me the gyn, male or female, didn’t enjoy being invited to “rule out” impending death.
      Said patient will run to have her next exam, keeping her advocate outside, now brainwashed into being a willing victim.
      Now you understand how we are bullied into allowing our babies to receive so many vaccinations too.
      This is how the confusion begins, and takes over the process. Your doctor will be reluctant to NOT pursue radical follow up because of a error-prone test. Yet, he/she cannot, neither can you, verify in any way whether you have HPV and require anything–OR NOT! Blind medicine. Stupid medicine. Happy employed doctors & politicians. A stirrup trained populace.
      Pap/pelvic exams are built around flawed, perverse technology.
      Birth control is the hostage. Shameful how many women avoid the doctor due to fear and past torture.
      Figure out a way to get a HPV test. Go to another province or to the States. Educate yourself and your entire family. Your health, your life, depends on it.

    • I live in Ontario. There is HPV testing but only with a pap test and you have to ask for it when you get a pap and pay an extra $75 of your own money for it. OHIP does not pay does not pay for the HPV test. If you just had a pap then you have to wait until you are due for another pap and ask for the HPV test along with it or go somewhere and pay for a pap and a HPV test yourself. (Expect over $100). Because OHIP will only pay for a pap test every two years if you had the last one normal.

      The HPV test used in Ontario labs only has a result of no HPV or low or high risk HPV. If a clinic or doctor tells you that an HPV test is not available then they are lying.

      Phone the Ontario cervical screening board yourself since they are so eager to send put their reminder letters to everyone they should be able to give people accurate information about HPV testing along with their lies and propoganda.

      If you want an HPV test for your own. Good luck. You have to order from abroad and Health Canada will try to block you getting the self test into Canada.

      • Thanks for the info, Moo. I will ask for this at my next appt. And now I’m feeling more leery of the entire vagina industry – how can my gyn even mention cold-knife conization and hysterectomy (on my apparently disease-free cervix which is getting abnormal PAPs) and not once mention HPV testing? Bad medicine.

        And I am assuming that if I had said yes to the “prescribed by the guidelines” conization, he would have gone in VERY deep, since there is no “target” to aim for – no apparent disease. This would have been insane.

        Thanks again, all,
        ~Wendy

      • Go view all the youtube videos on these procedures. They are graphic and revealing. When these happen, they are explained as if the bare minimum is being cut off. LIke, “assume” margins cleared. What happens is you’re carved out like a pumpkin.
        Consider this. They CANNOT determine the level of involvement inside the endocervical canal.
        So, why not just do cryosurgery? Same question applies to the entire cervix surface.
        Since HPV invades the very thin layer of surface cells, Why can’t they just use a larger donut to freeze off the cells? Turn the cervix into a type of ice rink. The freezing destroys a several mm tissue deep. Including what takes place inside the endocervical canal. See for yourself.
        This is the least destructive method per doctors.
        There ARE various sized “donuts” for cervix surface and “cones” which go into the canal as well as freeze/fry the area around the canal. Which is what I had done.
        The videos piss us off. My husband usually holds his testicles while watching with me and cussing over the cruelty and lack of patient consideration. I agree with him. He is a very good women’s advocate. If this happens to us, then eventually something will also apply to men. He despises doctors’ flippant attitudes to causing pain. “If it were a penis no pain would be tolerated.” He’s right about that.
        Why then, do doctors use LEEP and Cold Knife (Conization)?
        Watch the videos and judge for yourself.
        Cryo destroys things from surface down. Tissues regenerate somehow. My cervix looks normal compared to pictures. We’ve both looked at it.
        But if you compare mine, to a virgin cervix, to a post Leep or Cold Knife? Regarding the latter two cervix’, you can see large parts are gone and the cervix looks traumatized.
        I would love to hear your comments. Please compare all these and share your thoughts.

    • You can check the official guidelines here http://sogc.org/clinical-practice-guidelines/ in the oncology section (scroll down). Since you are over the “magical” age of 35 and if you say that your “childbearing years are over” then most likely you will be recommended a hysterectomy. So don’t be fooled. They consider that something is there even if they can see nothing. Check websites that give more information to alternatives to hysterectomy. Be well informed. Having you come back for colposcopies also makes this doctor money. There are some naturopaths that will do paps and send them to a lab in the US (you have to pay for everything) so that the ontario cervical screening registry does not get the results. I think that likely they could do an HPV test as well.

      • Regarding the written history we’re all chipping in to create. I have three episodes in my life I want to add. Do I try to make them all fit a 3000 word one-story entry? Or submit them separately? Please advise.
        Now regarding Ontario’s pap hell. You’ve all answered w/o realizing it. Why don’t they offer HPV testing? Incorrectly about perceived money saved. Self-brainwashed they equate CC with every “pre” condition; those Dx’s we correctly call “no cancer.” Regardless of all warnings, every clinical indication taught from med school onward. First to colpo then eventually surgery. Unless truly in love with and believing his woman; or a female MD brave enough to challenge the system.
        They’ve prevented women and their significant others (together suffering hand-in-hand) from not having informed consent. Ontario thinks doctors know better. Collectively and objectively deciding for women. Willfully ignorant of the consequences.
        Give a man, better yet a male doctor PMS, a period, the dreaded well-woman visit (the first one being a total surprise), a pregnancy, an episiotomy, peri-menopause so he can have an endometrial biopsy, then all the joys of menopause. Let him see himself made powerless over a lifetime. Uniting and making men see and live our lives is the only way we force change. We cannot count on women in healthcare. They too similarly brainwashed to graduate.
        We are needed, we’re the last of the truly objective.
        Tape one-page fact sheets all over cities. Download letters, adding a personal account before sending to doctors & elected officials. Refusing to accept their propaganda, the PR-created answers. Tell a friend, a relative. Go to appointments, and ask question after question. Give them a “work slowdown” like they force on us when more pay is demanded.
        Ontario is keeping women medically ignorant for “efficiency.” An out of control bureaucracy.
        When, if they would slow down and “inform,” tremendous $$ savings would be realized. No more waiting months just for a stupid well-“doctor” (ha) visit.
        I agree with Elizabeth. Somehow, go somewhere. Get a second opinion w/”real objective testing.”
        Ask your doctor. Once he’s hollowed out your cervix; cut it like a pumpkin, will you be able to carry a baby to term w/o requiring your cervix to be sewed shut? How many miscarriages will it take for him to realize treatment is needed? A woman I know here (US) miscarried at least 2x requiring immense care. She hemorrhaged once & required hospitalization. Don’t put the terms to your doctor in a nice, med-school multisyllable, non-feeling discussion. Make him/her feel it!
        Will your periods be normal? Will you still enjoy an orgasm? If you have continuing issues or, worse yet, undesirable side-effects post cold knife, how soon before he/she recommends hysterectomy? What are the % of outcomes? How did the women fare short & long term? Good, bad, requiring general anesthesia & further surgery?
        Vs finding out, simply if you have HPV and really do require the above?
        I know I used a lot of space. I want women to “see” the differences vs knowing HPV status and the “other.” Figure out a way to present this to your doctors in the same way. Make them understand this isn’t some flippant, easy decision.
        Compare it to their testicles. Will you be capable of orgasm? What do other patients say?
        I lost my labia due to pain medication induced hormone suppression. I lost my powerful sexual urge and ability to have multiple orgasms. My husband? He still mourns time lost. More than I do because, I lost the desire and didn’t care. Now I’m again sexually awake. I care. For YOU.
        Do this for every woman carrying inside a surgically mutilated cervix. Validate her concerns. For she, like you, wonders. WAS IT REALLY NECESSARY?
        All this, because doctors are satisfied with 53% accuracy and all the false positive/negative results. Shameful.
        Last now, this is how tampons different than what your body’s used to can effect a pap.
        Anything foreign that your body doesn’t recognize can affect the moisture balance of cells. Will the cell have too much or too little moisture?
        The pap reading computer isn’t programmed to sort this variable out of the biological data. No algorithm for that nor anything else. Hence the 53% accuracy and 47% false readings. The average woman does NOT stand a good chance of even having a true result after all the hassle.
        Incredible.
        The computer simply looks at the cell size. Then the nucleus. Big, small? Others nearby? How many vs other cells? What type are they? How many? Good or bad sample? After the first sampling, does it kick out (reject as bad specimen) or sample (read) and score?
        If the slide was prepared properly, it won’t be rejected.
        The computes are programmed with an internal dataset to have a narrow field as to what’s accepted and scored as normal. if these cells are not within the “programmed normal” size etc, and if there’s not enough “normal” cells, the machine flags them in various stages of abnormal. It may view them as mature when they are immature, vice-versa, or mistakingly see them as something else rather than what they are.
        The Certified Pathologist may catch this and correct the Dx. Or not. Who knows how many slides are there to manually verify? Defensive medicine may lead him/her to leave the inaccurate reading stand. Perhaps it was past criticism for making a correction. After all, doing so stripped doctors of re-testing or colpo money. Even more if the patient is attractive. Doctors would professionally persuade the pathologist, that the decision to overrule the machine “deprived the patient of necessary medical f/u to rule out pathology…while quoting the 53% accuracy and false readings!” We all pay tax money, insurance premiums, for this BS!
        When a simple urine test would suffice.

27. Linda,
    Thanks for sharing your story. I found it quite moving, so much of it resonating with me as you describe so well how you felt violated by coerced cervical screening. The whole well woman and obgyn industry is perverse in my opinion, with no recognition of how these exams and tests affect us psychologically. The medical profession doesn’t give a damn how we feel, everything is geared to dismiss our distress and trauma. They like to tell us how it is from their perspective, so we are told that the doctor/nurse has seen it all before, it is not in any way sexual, it is part of being a woman, it’s a responsible thing to do, you are taking care of your health like a big girl, it won’t hurt a bit, they will stop if we want them to, it is a routine exam and that horrible old chestnut, you will die a horrible death if you don’t get tested. On and on it goes.

    None of these coercive statements work on me anymore. I am older now and jaded by my experiences at their hands from the age of 17, mainly to do with pregnancy and childbirth. They will never and I mean never get me to submit to these exams again.

    I will give them no more opportunities to hurt or humiliate me.

    • Thank you Chrissy. I’m glad you’re not havi g anymore exams too. Its not that we are irrisponsible its just that why shoild we have them if we don’t want. I was never asked at anytime did I want one only lied to that i had no choice. I’m so fantastically angry i can’ see me ever letting this go.
      Would you like to put something in our book you are mord than welcome to. You write so elequently when you post here. X

    • Chrissy this is a beautiful piece of writing, I think it should go into Linda’s book. It says it all about this dreadful business. I find it hard to write because my anger gets in the way. I have written pieces for Linda’s book, but I have to have a cooling off period before submitting them. What you have written is without emotion. I simply cannot imagine what it must be like to have all the pap crap at such a young age. In my mid 20’s it was a bad enough ordeal for me, but when I think these fanatics are wanting teenagers to go through these tests, it is simply abuse, or a form of FGM.

    • Linda and Adawells,
      Thank you for your kind words. It means a great deal to me to find other likeminded women who understand the pain of others and who support and not dismiss or ridicule their experiences. I met Elizabeth, Sue, Kleigh and others on a website called Blogcritics and the subject was unnecessary pap tests. There were a total of 10,000 comments posted mainly by women who had had enough of being treated like sheep run through dip, but unfortunately the blog was taken down and to my knowledge has not been re-instated. I am cynical enough to believe that it was removed due to pressure from those with vested interests in keeping women compliant and in the dark.

      Thanks to Sue, we had another place to go to with forwomenseyesonly, as I would have been devastated to lose contact with others who felt the same way as I did.

      Linda, I will have a think about posting something, probably along the lines of how the medical profession psychologically manipulate and coerce women.

      • My story will be a bit different, I consider myself one of the lucky ones, I managed to dodge and weave until I was old and bold enough to tell them straight, NO PAP TESTS, got it! It was fairly easy to refuse breast screening, that’s the insane thing, the MOST pressure is about a very small risk, cervical cancer. (and most women are no risk)

        I have lived my life “around” pap testing or for the first 35 years anyway, now I stare it in the face with contempt. This test has detracted from the lives of so many women, even just the dread of the “due date” approaching. A woman (online) told me she can’t help the increasing anxiety as the 2 years ticks away, her stomach starts churning and nausea and insomnia start about 2 months before the summons arrives…ALL so unnecessary.
        She’s now self-tested for HPV, is HPV- and can get on with her life, the black cloud has been lifted, it didn’t need to be there in the first place, she mourns for all the time and happiness she lost worrying about this testing.

        I feel for all the woman harmed by this testing, physically and psychologically, but also resent the negative impact it’s had on the lives of women, the reduced quality of life reported by so many women…simply enduring this test every 2 years.

    • Hi Cat&Mouse.
      Anything you want to put towards the book is great. You can submit any amount of articles. All I ask is you either type it into the speak your mind in the submissions article or write them in a word programme and then copy and paste.

      • Also they dont have to be 3000. Any length is ok.

      • Hi Linda,
        I’ve just added mine. It’s about 2,300 words. More to come with my history of the NHSCSP later.

28. http://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/jun/13/cervical-cancer-hpv-test-vaccine

    I’m not sure if the UK is doing HPV testing or not now, or whether it is only trial areas. I have just seen a very recent tweet that it may be another 5 years before they roll it out nationwide.
    The comment from abritosa after this article is fantastic and so true.

    • I’m not sure about the situation here in Australia either, I certainly hope they test before sending women for biopsies etc. I wouldn’t be surprised though to find they don’t bother, there seems to be an attitude that an abnormal pap test (CIN 2 or 3) always involves HPV, we know that’s certainly not true with young women. I suspect it’s not true for older women either, my sister got a CIN 2 pap test result with no HPV, it was put down to inflammation from a new brand of tampons.
      Here HPV testing has been used as a test of cure, testing women AFTER treatments, how convenient is that? HPV+ and she still has HPV, HPV- and we cured her, perhaps, she was always HPV-

      Even if young women are HPV+, they shouldn’t be sent off for biopsies etc. This is the problem when you include young women in this testing, they tend to be the group that really gets hit with (excess) treatments.

      I was reading an article the other day on HPV and it was a given you don’t test before age 30 so our medical leaders and associations, after years of careful consideration, have decided we’ll test from age 25. It really is astonishing, but it says to me this testing is mostly about them, not us. Who cares about the evidence? Not us, it’s about filling up waiting rooms.

      • Actually with my sister, I’m not sure she was ever tested for HPV, perhaps, she was tested after the cone biopsy? That’s usually what happens, (test of cure) I think they just assumed she had HPV because of the CIN 2 result.
        It would have been hard for them to say they cured her with the cone biopsy though, “no HPV now, so we cured you!”
        The tissue sample was completely normal so it was put down to inflammation from the tampons. (not “cured” by the cone biopsy)
        I don’t think she had HPV…but even though it was a false positive, they did try to rope her into extra testing. Thankfully, though..she did her reading and they haven’t been able to hurt her again, she’s now a long-standing and proud non-tester.

      • I meant to mention as well, in the above article that Sasieni says it would cause chaos if the UK switched to HPV primary testing, because so many people would lose their jobs. No concern to stop the torture and threats carried out in women’s “healthcare” then?

    • Funny that, isn’t it? They managed to set up the call/recall system within a few years, yet any changes to their precious programme take forever to implement.
      As for Sasieni, I would never trust anyone who works for or sleeps with a charity like CRUK – talk about vested interests!

    • Hi Ada. I’m so sorry about your experience. I think you like me found putting it into such eloquent words helps heal. Its only when we take a step back and really think about the ‘minutae’ of what actually went on during our consults can we grasp the full horror of it all.
      It will help other women those who read sue’s forum and those who downliad these stories. Its perfect for the book and i will copy it later.

      • Hi Linda, I hated the way your nurse always used pet terms for you. I find these terms like pet, poppet, sweetie, honey,.sugar plum, that these medical professionals use are so utterly patronising. It’s all done to infantalise us, to make out that those of us who decline are such silly little girlies. All part of the training they get for the programme, I’m sure.

      • Ever try doing it back to them? If they get pissed-off, they make it obvious that they were trying something. If they don’t reply when you ask them why they’re getting so pissed-off, that tends to work as something of a confession.

29. but sadly, with a damaged cervix, like many other Australian women.

30. Adawells and Linda I’ve been in tears.. Two women I’ve come to regard as friends to be treated so appallingly. I’m so sorry! I have no words. I’m not sure I can say anything for the book.. My story is nothing really. Thinking of u x
    And all the other poor women hurt by the vile testing

    • Kat, you’ve made some great comments on the NHS website, and to Anne Mackie too, and you can’t get higher than that in the NHS screening programmes. I’m sure it’s been invaluable in making our points heard. There must be thousands of women who have had my experience. After I opted out of screening I had absolutely nothing more to do with it at all, and I think there must be many sitting quietly in this situation. What a joy it is to see so many people now making some great comments against this programme online. Unfortunately it was my getting endometrial cancer in 2013 that made me turn to the internet for answers and get into social media. Elizabeth answered one of my comments and introduced me to this website. I would still have been blissfully unaware of campaigns such as this if I hadn’t been forced to seek gyne treatment. I’ve come late to this game and I feel a great deal of gratitude to those who have been fighting this cause for decades, while I quietly sat out of the game. Thank you Sue, for setting up the site, and Elizabeth for endlessly fighting this cause and standing up for our suffering.

      • Thanks adawells!! Maybe I will add a post for the book. It’s appalling that this test is billed as harmless and nothing and is affecting so many women so badly. And women are blamed and told to get over it! I don’t think you’ve set on the fence at all. You needed to heal physically and mentally before you did anything else!

31. i’m diane ,

    This is my gyn experience.

    My mom to me to gyno when i was 18. i was scared didn’t know what was going to happen.
    My tried to decide my form of birth control.
    I could go through the exam , the dr said i was nervous and tight,

    I had a nasty abortionist at 21. The hospital where i had it let me self abort.
    I abused drugs after that.

    I tried for yrs to find out why sex hurt. No exam no answer,
    the spectulms always freaked me out.

    No Dr would help me because I could not have an exam. I asked for sedation, etc.
    They would say come back when you can have an exam.

    They destoryed my ability to enjoy sex or have kids.

    Yrs of trying to get medical help, resulting in ptsd and a waste money.

    i wanted help all i got was traumized!

    I am so glad i longer put my self through the trauama!

    • Diane, I identify with your experiences. My first visit, I had no idea, mother the enabler took me, saying nothing. What a terrible surprise! The female doctor s/h stopped due to my crying. And the pain. My traumatic welcome to womanhood. That same terror before every gyn visit since. Someone here called it “the rape lounge.” Yes. My husband says divorces begin here and in the delivery room. PTSD. Yes. Pain. Breasts, vaginas, our bodies. Physical pain felt in our beautiful, terrified sex organs, our very beings, stinging our souls. Another appointment. Body and brain confronted again. Fighting back another assault. Again, my fight or flight response. Tension, quickening heart beat, narrowing vision, cold sweat. Brain has no answer, body can’t fight nor take flight. Dignity lost. Feeling shame. Every touch like an invasion. No words, only tears. “Not again. Don’t hurt me. Soothe me. Protect me. Love me. Stop this assault! Stop this pain!” Everybody should, but no one does. Not believed, not validated. Trapped, recoiled and tightened. Invaded anyway. My body won’t accept and my brains can’t process. PTSD. Yes.

      The war over our bodies. We fight to keep it, the doctors fight to control it, to take it whenever they want. War is hell.

      If it’s felt this is appropriate, please add this to our “book” of experiences.

      • i agree.

    • Hi all. I’m so glad we are all friends. I still can’t beleive I have found this site. I go on it everyday to read all your comments.

      Of course i will be including Diane in what we must think of as ‘our’ book. Her accounts of her experiences are very painful to read. The testing has left her unable to have sex. I would be devestated if it were me. If you don’t mind Diane I will use this latest post and one or two others you gave done before to create your full story. I promise you your story will be the first one people will read as it is so harrowing.

      Hi Kat – don’t devalue your experience. You didn’t come to this site for nothing. Something has made you gel with all of us here. You are very welcome to put in anything you like.
      If you want you could do some research on paps and post your findings.

      Everyone should try to think of it as ‘their’ book. Its not mine only in that i have the knowhow to get on the amazon site and do this. I can make it blend in with some of their more profess looking stuff.

      This is a fantastic site to belong to – if our book saves one woman and brings her here it will have been worth it.

      X

      • lease share my story. hopefully another other women won’t suffer like i have. yrs of tramua
        and no solution to my issue!

      • Thanks Linda… I’m sure I posted here that it’s only since I found out basically how useless the test is and the way we’re bullied into it. Plus all your experiences here, that now I’m realising how bloody angry I am over it all so leave that idea with me…! And every one, thanks again!

      • fyi woman gyn’s didn’t help either. didn’t treat me better than the male gyn’s.

32. This is trending on Facebook right now. Lots of praise for Obamacare and how it supposedly has increased the amount of early cc detection. Some of the comments are unbelievable. The ones I hate the most are from other women commanding everyone, “Ladies, get your paps.” One commenter also replied that her cc was caught early even before it was stage 1 and that she only has to have surgery and undergo a short course of chemo. First of all, I didn’t know there was anything before stage 1. That doesn’t sound right. Second, if it was caught that early, why the need for chemo. Wouldn’t surgery be enough? There are really some whacky people commenting on these stories.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/11/24/early-detection-cervical-cancer-increased-after-aca-expanded-coverage/76273190/

    • Before stage 1 is stage 0. Stage 0 is what we are told are “abnormal pap results” indicating “a precancerous condition”. This is PRE-cancer. If you have “pre-cancer”, YOU DO NOT HAVE CANCER! It does mean that cells are somehow changing in ways which may indicate they are turning into cancer, or it may be ordinary changes, or changes as a reaction to something else (chemicals in the environment, diet, soaps, feminine products…). Surgery on a “pre-cancer” is being overly-cautious, in general, and chemo is certainly over-kill. HOWEVER, the more people who have these pre-cancerous conditions, who are convinced that it was “caught early” and feel that it saved their life, the more spokespeople are there to point to. Adding the chemo, complete with all of its side-effects, serves to show these “survivors” as appearing to be ACTUAL cancer patients. It’s nothing more than Munchausens by Proxy. It’s an abusive waste of resources and money, let alone the human costs.

      • Off topic but… Ladies in the UK it was announced yesterday in the spending review that the proceeds from the so called tampon tax the VAT we pay on sanitary wear, is to be channelled back into women’s charity and health research. Why don’t we all events mail our MPS and the health secretary that the money is spent developing /refining cervical screening so the test is more acceptable for those that CHOOSE to screen? They were bleating on about donations to the eve appeal. Surely this would be more appropriate??

33. Should b email sorry. Did anyone also hear the tory reply to the ruling that women are paying for their own health care by having periods?? paying to be bullied into screening said it all!!

34. Yes I saw it Kat. Tampon Tax. Now matter how hard we push in anything everything comes down to the fact we are women. We never escape that fact. When I was young Kotex was the only thing available and at the time 1976 they were astronomically priced. i think I remember them being £2 a pack. For the last ten years or so I shpped around in Wilko’s and then Bodycare. Thankfully that’s all behind me now but it annoys me now that they’re going to use it as a form of tax to pay for women’s health care.
    We are no further on as women than we were two hundred years ago.

    • Linda I just read dianes story and I wondered as I think it’s so well put, hope she does too it’s dignified and hard hitting at same time. Could I please ask you to do something similar for me using my posts? For the record I’m low risk one partner before my present hubby, with hubby 20 odd years one child. I know you’ll find the right words for the utter violation and physical pain I felt

      • Hi Kat. Yes I will do that tomorrow. I will post it so you can check its ok. X

    • Some women are sewing their own cloth pads or buyng cloth pads that they wash and reuse. They see putting all that into land fill as pollution. Some women stopped using tampons and switched to sponges. Sponges are more comfortable and some types are reusable. Other women use silicone cups. Those silicone cups are not worth $40. I find the prices of these reusables to be so high but the price of the disposibles are very high too and it adds up year after year.

      I found birth control pills to be hugely overpriced. The pack actually cost $8 but the pharmacy dispensing fee was $15. So once I tried to get three months supply at once and the $15 fee was still tacked on to each package. I complained but every pharmacy was doing this. The only place that sold birth control at cost were certain “clinics” which insisted that you had to get a pelvic exam at “their” clinic to get “their” cheaper pills. Saying you had a pap test elsewhere was no good. Especially if you were young and got a slightly abnormal pap any time, they would only give you three months prescription. You had to see other doctors to get more every three months. Once they rolled in the screening registry this cash cow for doctors doing paps was somewhat reduced. It did not do the women much good though.

35. Thanks Linda after all its only fitting in a way and if you are comfortable with it I’d like it said that u were the one who found me as it were and brought me here!!

    • Hi Kat. I’ve been looking over your posts. Is there anyway you can give me a brief overview all in one go about your screening history. I will use my writing skills to ham it up a bit. Thanks. X

      • Hi Linda sure. First test early 20s to get Pill (which aggravated migraine). Feeling of outrage humiliating violated and intense physical pain so I’d have to bite my mouth to keep quiet. Low risk woman. Smears every 3 years after that each worse than ever. No abnormal history, no colpo ect. At last smear I argued half hearted and was told not to be shy nurse sees vaginas every day even though I’d not expressed shyness as the reason I didn’t want it. Walked out last time thought never again. Finally wanted to put a stop to the deluge of “invitations ” so took to the Internet…

      • I just turned 31 and feel like a renegade for never going to have ppaps. When I was 18 that was the screening age hear in the states back thin and even younger if you went for birth control at any age. I knew I was not going to have paps I flat out refuse BC number one no one is going to dictate to me that I let them inside my body to screen anything I always felt I was healthy and knew it was over the top. Does that make since at all? Make up a screening age that is suppose to help woman thin BC young girls want birth control she has to get her privates inspected to get permission to use birth control. I personly don’t want to use hormonal BC but how dare these medical pole dictate medical rape for a script. It is still happening hear in the us more so than not. And sadly most woman go along with it.

36. Hi again All,
    I want to thank you again for your helpful comments, info and support. Finding this group has given me another perspective on the medical “vagina indistry”, for this is what it is! And although I like my gyno, it’s obvious that he is part and parcel of the whole schmeer (or smear).

    I’ve learned that cervical dysplasia, when advanced, is present on the SURFACE of the cervix, beginning on the transformation zone and perhaps advancing inside the cervical canal. Thus, if present, it can be detected at colposcopy, especially after the vinegar wash turns it white. If nothing is detectable, then it’s almost certain that no disease is present. But wait – a gyno can do biopsies as well, to make sure. Mine did one punch biopsy of an area that he thought was probably normal (it was), and an endo-cervical curettage of the canal, which also came out normal.

    So, how likely do you think it is that after all this, we can declare me disease free? Ha! Not a chance, apparently – and because my PAP (which he admitted is only a screening test and cannot be used for diagnosis) still showed changes, he suggested cold-knife conization and even mentioned hysterectomy!

    Although he uncomplainingly allowed me the option of simply returning to the clinic in a few months for more PAP and biopsies, I am greatly disappointed in this bad medicine and no longer trust the process at all. To me, no visible disease (biopsies) means a SCANT chance of actual disease, which can almost be disregarded. I’m thinking of changing over to PAP-only, perhaps every 5 years, just to rule out actual cancer or catch it before it can spread. But I know that as long as I continue to attend these examinations, I am prone to be caught up in the anxiety-testing cycle interminably.

    I will go to my appointment in the spring and see what it brings, but if it’s still positive PAP and negative everything-else, I plan to consider myself in the clear (pap was not positive for glandular cells – just regular ol’ interepithelian cells that CAN indicate a surface lesion – one that, seemingly, does not exist. Don’t even get me started on the 53% false-positive rate for HSIL paps).

    Thanks again, girls,
    ~Wendy

    • Oh, and I will arrange for HPV testing as well, at my next appointment if poss. – thanks to those who suggested it. I believe I can get it if I pay for it. Happy to do so.
      ~Wendy

      • Hi TreeFrog,
        A word of warning – here in the UK it’s recommended that if a woman produces an ‘inadequate’ pap result and needs to be retested, she should wait at least 3 months between tests as it can take that long for the skin to heal. Considering the damage that’s been inflicted on your cervix, is it any wonder that a pap test performed only a short time after this butchery would produce an ‘abnormal’ result?
        Also bear in mind that ‘dysplasia’ is medical jargon for ‘abnormal cells’ – it is not a disease in itself, nor does it automatically indicate the presence of disease.
        Angela Raffle, a UK screening expert, said this:
        ‘”If a pathologist looks at enough bits of you, he’ll find precancerous tissue somewhere. It is so common that it must be part of the normal process of tissue damage and repair. What we don’t know is which ones are going to spread and which can be safely left. That’s why we have to over-treat in order to help the small number who’d otherwise end up with something serious.”
        If it’s true that dysplasia can could simply indicate the healing process, how many women have been pushed into mutilating ‘treatments’ and hysterectomies as a direct result of the damage caused by these investigations?

      • Linda.. Thanks! I just read my story and it’s really good!
        Thanks again… It’s all fine no changes needed. Truly you are a talented writer and I thank you for giving women such as myself a voice x

37. Here’s the latest news story making the rounds on the internet today. What do you all make of this?

    http://www.nbcnews.com/health/womens-health/false-positive-mammogram-result-may-point-higher-risk-n472911

    • Sounds like bullshit. It’s a FALSE positive. This is like saying you’re more likely to die in a car crash if a bunch of people thought you died in a car crash & were wrong.

    • Of course women with false positives have a higher risk of breast cancer. Women with a positive mammogram result is sent in for other, more invasive surgeries, imaging, radiation therapy, and on and on. Ionizing radiation increases the risk of cancer, and more of it increases more. So, of course those who get pulled into excessive “doctoring” for their cancer get more cancer!

      • AND we know about 50% of screen detected breast cancers are over-diagnosed.
        Beth is right, false positives mean more mammograms and sometimes a needle biopsy, so even more opportunities to be “diagnosed” with “breast cancer”.
        Clinical breast exams and routine ultrasounds also expose us to the risk of false positives and over-treatment. We know some breast cancer is not worth knowing about and screening tends to catch these cancers, the ones we’d die with, not from…
        You increase your risk of a diagnosis of breast cancer when you have mammograms and the risk rises if you have annual mammograms or start them before age 50.
        Prof Baum is concerned about the American women sold into annual mammograms from their 20s or 30s (often labelled high risk after their mother was diagnosed with “cancer”, who know if they were over-diagnosed themselves?) the radiation gets to a level where it might well cause ACTUAL breast cancer. So screening/medical vigilance and bad/unbalanced medical advice can lead to actual breast cancer and death.
        I do wonder about women who have their “cancer” caught by a mammogram, the 50% who didn’t have breast cancer worth worrying about…may end up dying as a result of over-treatment, it’s the perfect deception because others will say they should have even more frequent mammograms or start earlier. “Jane had 2 yearly mammograms and still got breast cancer so I’ll go every year”…
        The fact is when we don’t get balanced information, we can’t see the wood for the trees.

      • Women who have a false positive on a mammogram may also have a biopsy, which by itself is an independent risk factor for breast cancer – it’s even asked in the American Cancer Society’s on-line risk calculator if the woman has ever had a breast biopsy, and factored into her risk profile. Incidentally, my sister was recently diagnosed with breast cancer (which fortunately appears to be small and treatable) that didn’t show up on a mammogram at all – she only knew something was wrong because she had a nipple discharge. I think this is a case in point that our best defense is to be breast-aware and be vigilant about noticing any changes.

    • Like my cousins wife’s swears she had cc from a abnormal pap smear and the keep cured it. How doctors manipulate woman.

      • Leep

38. Interesting piece on information I ran across….a little dated, but still……..

    In a 1972 random survey of psychiatrists, 7.2% admitted having had intercourse with a patient, and an additional 13% admitted to sexual contact short of intercourse. Interestingly, 18% of obstetricians, 13% of general practitioners, and 12% of internists admitted to sexual contact with patients. Kardener, Fuller & Mensh, A Survey of Physicians’ Attitudes and Practices Regarding Erotic and Nonerotic Contact with Patients, 130 Am. J. PSYCHIATRY 1077, 1079-80 (1973).

    Hex

39. http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Cervical-screening-test/Pages/Introduction.aspx#comment7492
    Yet another lady being told “No smear = No patient of surgery” – In comments Mia911

    • Many thanks for posting this Chas. I’ve been trying to re-register on the NHS website, but I think I’m blocked as can’t get it to reset my password. It just goes to show that in spite of them saying all British women have a choice and they have been notified that they have a choice, it is business as usual at the surgery level.

      • Evidently, these people do not know that coercion negates consent. So, if the “price” that a woman has to “pay” in order to have any of her health needs met is to have them penetrate her, that is nothing short of sexual assault.

    • It would appear that the NHS has removed all the comments for their site for colposcopy and cervical screening. You do not need to log into NHS to see these comments and if you just go to their main site http://www.nhs.uk/pages/home.aspx and type in search you can get there.

      • A real shame as it was one of the best letters I’ve seen in a long time and very poignantly written. I tried to reply, and I’m sure a lot of people did too. I have not been able to login or reset my password in a long time so I assumed that you may have a limited number of comments only before it stops you getting in again, so that certain individuals don’t monopolise the site. Like you, I will keep checking for further details.

    • Chas, I’ve searched for this but can’t find it. Are you able to copy the text of Mia911 and post it here? Was hoping to use this in the piece I am writing for Linda’s book, but it’s gone now. Makes me so angry that they are deleting these valid posts by women.

      • adawells – I wish I could but they have removed all of the comments and I did not think to copy it before. Maybe they banned me from that kind of access as I did respond to what Mia said, I reckon they didn’t like it as they have not posted my comments before, due to dissuading the ladies…..obviously they only allow you to persuade. I’ve been all over the NHS site and I can’t see any comment from any subject…strange, I must be black listed LOL! I’m sorry this will not go in the book. I’ll check again in the future to see if the comments are back up? There was about 110 comments on cervical screening and over 100 on the colposcopy page too. Also noticed there is no option for me to post a comment either.

40. I think a lot of doctors try-it-on when it’s safe to do so, on the website of a clinic in Western Australia they boldly state, “women on the Pill need pap tests”. If they said, men on Viagra need a colonoscopy, it would be challenged/reported and changed, but because there’s no respect for informed consent and even consent itself can be ignored in women’s cancer screening, they get away with it. Many women would be misled after reading that statement and the GPs probably find less resistance in the consult room, women read that and expect a pap test when they ask for the Pill. Again and again we see that coverage is the main consideration, that’s why Anne Mackie can “say” what she likes, we all know at the surgery level it’s business as usual.

    So we can “talk” about informed consent, we can change brochures, but while we continue to reward GPs for coverage, promote opportunistic screening, stay with the “must” and “should” language and screening “story”…it all amounts to nothing, it’s just a PR exercise to make them feel better and to placate informed women. (and advocates for informed consent)
    It’s interesting that the UK has a few advocates for informed consent, so not surprising you’re hearing about informed consent from the NHS, nothing actually changes for individual women, but you’re hearing about their concerns and efforts to ensure women understand it’s a choice etc.
    We’re not even going through the motions here, we have no real advocates for informed consent in cervical screening, so there’s no need to address any dissent.

    We were supposed to get rid of the link between the Pill and pap testing, but even the AMA continue to link the two. The medical profession has no respect at all for women and their legal rights, as they see it, all women must have pap testing, it’s their job to get us up on the exam table and tested, whether we want to test or not. End of story.

41. Informative interview with Brandy Vaughn from the Council for Vaccine Safety on the dangers of the cervical cancer vaccine. She claims the vaccine is all about profit and worth ’10’s of millons’ and has little benefit to women’s health, stating the risks of adverse reactions overwhelm the benefits and goes on to talk about the very low rates of cervical cancer.
    Watch from 13:17
    http://councilforvaccinesafety.org/whats-really-behind-mandatory-vaccines/

42. Hi Alex. This is a great piece of writing for the book. Many thanks i just knew you would step up to the mark to do this. You have a unique perspective on this subject and i just knew you writing about it would be better than me. I am just going to fiddle with two bits. I’m going to clarify what a jedi mind trick is and it is similar to brainwashing – this is so women understand ‘jedi mind trick’ is from a film. Also even tho ‘underlings’ is exactly how i would describe the hospital workers who blindly follow orders, for the purposes of the work i will change that to ‘hospital staff’

    Just to clarify how i put a book on amazon for free –

    1, amazon don’t do free books as they are a profit orientated business.
    2, i put book on smashwords, barnes and noble and i tunes and other free sites.
    3, at the same time will put book on amazon kindle the cheapest will be 99p.
    4, as soon as you see it on amazon you all report book being cheaper on other sites
    5, amazon have a programme to check this and adjust the price accordingly.
    6,it takes a few days.
    7, if i make the odd commission until price is adjusted i promise to donate any money to charity
    8, i am not so desperate that i would stoop so low to make money from this when i have said it is free.

    Is everyone ok with this it is the only way?

    • Linda: Thanks! That sounds fine. I did put down “mental supplantation” ahead of putting down “Jedi Mind Trick” to clarify what it is in a more descriptive way (I don’t know if you saw that).

      I actually thought of another important point I wanted to add on that which would further clarify things (the “ENCE” in “existENCE” would be in bold, but I can’t do that on my computer for some reason):

      “This mental supplantation doesn’t have to look like a hypnotist in a movie, it could be as simple as someone telling someone else “It’s okay, they’re doctors” or something else to imply that someone is okay with what this other person is trying to do- in stark contrast to reality. As if something ceases to exist despite it’s existENCE (in this case, sexual dissonance- meaning when something is “against the grain” on that particular level).”

      A possible addition could be: “To make a demonstrative parallel: If a man is in bed with a woman & she’s not okay with doing something, then he’s telling her “Your fine with it.” Does that come off factual? Of course not. It could always be the other way around, but the principle remains the same.”

      “Subordinates” is more exactly what I was going for, since there are members of the hospital staff that outrank them occupationally. I was going to use that word, but couldn’t think of it at the time & “underlings” just rolls off my tongue.

      Like I was saying, it’s just the first draft. Maybe room can be left for modifications or insights until you’re ready to put it in the book? I really think the first one is important, but I can’t find an “edit” option on this site.

      In sequencing, I’d make that first block its own paragraph right after the one with the Jedi Mind Trick. The second one (with the man & woman in bed) would possibly be part of it right after that (I’d imagine making the point about it being a “demonstrative parallel” would be important for a piece like this). What do you think?

43. Hi Alex to save you writing it all again i will use the suggestions and changes you have made here. If there is anything else feel free to add it. It looks good in the book which i am beginning to put together in preperation. I have called your article ‘unconventional attack and iatrogenic assault’

    • Okay, that sounds good. The title hits it right on the head (was having trouble figuring a good one out).

44. I was just reflecting on some things & thought it might be pertinent information. It is somewhat full-circle, so bear with me:

    With all that’s going on with terrorism & such, a few things come to mind. Some of the most obvious ones is that there are things that are mentioned as issues in the Middle East, yet persist as a common trend in the West (at least in America).
    (1) Virginity testing runs a pretty damn close parallel with various coercions in America.
    (2) Rape in any form is treated borderline favorably here, even if the general public wouldn’t be that way if left to their own devices (not that the general public gets much say in anything here, since the general public’s decisions hinge on official approval in terms of effect).
    (3) Constant gaslighting on the subject of things being an issue (making the woman out to be immature/stupid/crazy/blasphemous).

    Another one is: What happens if someone defends themselves in one of this attacks or is simply caught up in one? It seems like cops don’t have much sense when it comes to “target recognition” & frequently pull the same shit one would be worried about gangs & psychopaths doing. The course of “just sorting things out” tends to involve all kinds of naked posturing, supervised showering, and sometimes imposed penetration. Sure, wrestling & fighting might be better than coerced participation- but that’s not the same thing as not transpiring.

    Speaking of which: It’s not all that rare that they break into the wrong house. Sometimes by such a wide margin that one has to wonder if they knew the right address, but they decided to go to a different house at random just to not be “pushed around” by the information or simply to terrorize. I’m remembering a case where they smashed into this woman’s house at 17 Hillside (while looking for a guy the arrested two weeks earlier & had his address as 71 Sylvan). Not sure how far things got, but a naked pat-down was apparently part of it & I’m fairly certain that her kids were around for at least some of this.

    I’m closing in on getting to another country (more & more I’m thinking of the Czech Republic), but I have some worry that they’ll be letting the “immigrants” turn it into the same kind of situation I don’t like already over here. Americans are generally better armed, but Europeans seem to give more of a shit how their lives go. Maybe the Europeans will get a bit more aggressive? Maybe some gun runners will stop selling to certain clientele?

    • Alex I’m in the UK and a few years back we had a drug dealer move in next door to us and endured hell.
      Eventually the police raided… They kicked our door down by mistake at 5am while we had guests staying the cops stormed into my room demanding said druggie I nearly got arrested myself the verbal grief I gave them

      • Wow! I thought the British were more on-target. Mind if I ask how things specifically went? I’m trying to compare it to America (since you’re still alive to be typing this story, I guess that’s one difference) & it’s actually fairly hard to find details about much of anything foreign here.

        I notice that most of the ones you hear are about the worst situations in a places that are basically warzones. You don’t hear about day-to-day life in Scotland, you hear about some kind of serial killer spree in possibly the most dangerous part of Mexico. You don’t hear about a festival in Peru, you hear about people chopping off arms in Africa.

45. http://honest2betsy.blogspot.hu/2011/03/open-letter-to-hers-foundation-on.html sounds like another dupe.. ‘I had been diagnosed with cervical cancer and while the carcinoma was microscopic, in situ, and promptly removed, my doctor urged me to complete my young family as soon as I could and then to have a hysterectomy. I was pregnant within a week or two, and so found myself a year later with three small children, two of them under two years of age, still reeling from the health scare..’ FFS so much is WRONG with this… and then she goes on to say how she detests HERS foundation, the NGO raising awareness about unnecessary hysterectomies!

    • Chrissie I just read your story on call for submissions and I’m commenting here as Linda would rather we did but thank you! You’ve sadly felt exactly how I felt all those times I smeared and even though I know now its normal and Ok to feel this way (thanks to this site)! Even though I know it’s Ok and that the system is wrong not me it’s as if I still need the reassurance.
      I’m off sick at the moment my anaemia is not good but I prefer to avoid the doctor because obviously I need a smear test!
      Thanks again for sharing your own story. May you heal and recover. Thinking of u x

      • Incidentally I was watching something on tv yesterday and it said in the UK the biggest cancer killer of women is lung cancer. Why don’t we all bombard our doctors with queries and request “screening ” even though we’re probably low risk non smokers???

46. Hi Kat,
    Thank you for your kind words. Finding other women who feel the same as I do has helped me considerably. Yes, lung cancer is a bigger killer of women than cc, as is cardiovascular disease, particularly for women my age, but my doctor hasn’t summoned me for tests for either of these. Sorry to hear you are feeling poorly, I hope you feel better soon.

    • Jola I’m replying to your post over here, about the ladies being fined.. I’ve never heard of this before! I refused my mammogram earlier this month and not a word was said (so far.. I’ve not seen my doctor in months) but I’ve had no more communication or “invitations ” even the smear invitations have dried up!
      I think the hospital were trying to scare your friends into complying and they succeeded! Just another low bullying tactics to get us to “accept “our “invitations “

47. Hi Linda
    I hope to post something tonight for your e-book. I’ve drafted something, just want to settle it, my mother went into hospital last week, she’s fine now, but I’m behind with a few things, including my submission.
    Thank you for all your hard work on this valuable project, you’ll help a lot of women and save many from a lifetime of abuse at the hands of this program.

    • Thanks Eliz. Over the years you’ve put lots on the internet warning women. I come across your hard work all the time. Sometimes you’ve been attacked. Some agree. The tide is turning. I feel as though we’ve stopped running and we’ve started the fight. The book wouldn’t be complete without you. X

      I’m goi g to put a link to this site if Sue agree so women reading will have a safe place to come to.
      Sue if you don’t want that let me know. X

      • I’ve been following everyone on call for submissions and you are all truly amazing and Ada Wells I’m so pleased for your job! X

      • I too, would like to thank Elizabeth and all of the others who are helping or contributing to the e-book. Yes, the tide is turning, where now maybe 2% have woken up – it was only a few years ago that it was like 0.01% of us who were refusing pelvic exams and pap tests, and just felt guilty about it (and ripe for sales exploitation), and had very little information to back us up. Now, we HAVE the information, and are getting MORE all the time.

        Thanks again.

48. Yes Bethcz. Overnight it was dowloaded 17 times already, amazing! And thats just some site called smashwords. I have upped it to amazon but they have rejected the cover.

49. Hi Ada i can see that i also made a mess of your table i am going to fix it right now.

    • I’m. Reminded of the saying out of little acorns big trees grow? Our book is doing fantastic already. Let’s hope it grows and grows and completely brings the cervical screening programme to its knees!!
      Adawells I remember a comment made ages ago by Elizabeth I think, “adawells v NHS hardly seems fair fight ” well good because the NHS is not fair to women is it??!!
      Bring it on….!

50. Ada, Congratulations!
    Working for the NHS in that role, wow, you can start work inside the organization, we’ll keep pressing from the outside and we’ll probably meet you in the middle. Does this mean I should apply for a job at Papscreen? Hope not, I’m sure I’d be hit by lightning as I walked into the place, in my mind it looks like a dungeon reserved for propaganda and the torture of women.
    I watched my nephew graduate from University last week, I’m so proud of him, I had the same feelings when I read your news.
    Knowing there are women in the world like you, with formidable knowledge, makes me very happy, I was going to say that you’ll probably never know how comforting I find that thought and stopped myself, of course, you all know exactly what I’m saying, this is a unique group of people.
    I’m so pleased to be part of this amazing group.

    I think we can take comfort from 2015, we’re seeing a lot of change, more women questioning the status quo and the unacceptable attitudes that promote and protect this testing.
    I know we’re miles behind the UK and elsewhere, but slowly….things are changing.

    There was talk in the office about HPV self-testing, some excited they could test without the dreaded speculum, I pointed out it would be locked away until they refused the invasive HPV test for 6 long years. The response was swift, “to hell with them, I’ll just buy it”…”I’m writing to my member of Parliament” etc.
    Finally, we see push-back…the system here will tell women that self-testing is not as reliable as a sample taken by a doctor. (it’s already started) I think many more women will see through the self-serving and convenient “evidence” coming from this program.
    My nephew told me once that a few people can change the world, I doubted it then, not now…

    Hope everyone has a happy Christmas and all the best for 2016 – see you back here very soon to keep stirring the screening pot!

51. Elizabeth, your nephew was wise when he told you a few people can change the world. If not for you this blog wouldn’t exist. I stumbled on one of your comments when I was searching for some answers more than four years ago, and it led me to further real information and eventual safety. I will be forever grateful.

    It has been a successful year, on this blog and elsewhere. The searches that land here continue to increase, this year there were 118, 347 searches that landed on this blog – a big increase from last year,and we are nearing three quarter of a million hits in total. The Discussion Forum has gotten more than 27,000 hits and the post calling for submissions is getting some fine attention as well.

    Linda, thank you for working long and hard to bring the book to fruition, and thanks to all of you who contributed. The book will lead even more women to safety. I will post a book review, hopefully before the new year.

    Happy Holidays to you all!
    

    • Hi All. Kat I hope you’re feeling better ready for Christmas. Ada its brilliant about your new job you will have to tell us all about it. Eliz I hope your Mum is OK and gets better soon.

      Merry Christmas to you all. Love Linda x

      • Thanks Linda and again thanks for the book! I’ve started b vitamins as well as the iron we’ll see how it goes! How are book sales!! ? And a happy holiday to u all xc

52. Thanks, Linda, she seems back to her old self, but we’ll watch her closely for the next couple of weeks.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-43262/False-smear-test-results-led-14-deaths.html
    “We are committed to improving public understanding of screening and new national leaflets are being published in June which will be much more honest about the benefits and limitations of screening have been in the past.”

    Interesting they didn’t see a need for honesty until 2015 and for all the talk about better information and informed consent, I doubt we’ll see much change at the surgery level. (unless you’re an informed woman)

    “Government health figures show that the NHS Cervical Screening Programme saves around 1,300 lives a year. It is directly responsible for a 42% drop in incidents of cervical cancer between 1988 and 1997. It is estimated that the programme has saved more than 8,000 lives in that time.”

    DIRECTLY responsible for the 42% drop in incidence of cc, I just love the way they pluck these figures out of thin air, talk about convenient statistics. I think a number of factors have contributed to the fall, the incidence of cc was falling before we started screening.
    One thing about this program, they never let the evidence get in the way of a good story.

53. I’m about to make my Christmas Eve cocktail, but just read the latest posts on: https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2015/08/03/how-do-we-help-people-decide-if-screening-is-the-right-choice-for-them/

    Decided I had to make one final point:

    “Hi Anne
    It’s great to see you responding to the comments and concerns on this thread, but there really is a serious disconnect between the oversight/management of this program and what happens at the coal face (so to speak)

    If we’re serious about consent and informed consent we need to get to GPs, make sure they understand this is an elective test and they have no right to pressure women into testing. Women are not due or overdue, screening tests are elective. It’s not a numbers game, we have a legal right to make an informed choice.
    Also, the Pill has nothing to do with smear testing and should not be tacked onto that consult, women should be free to decline the test, without having to plead their case. Every consult should not be ambushed with smear test pressure.
    The emphasis has always been coverage and target payments, that needs to change if we’re going to improve the situation for women.

    We also need to let women know in clear terms that no one has the right to pressure them into smear tests, they cannot be removed from patient records for declining the test and that harassment to screen by letter, phone or every time you walk into the clinic is unacceptable – there could even be a hotline to report doctors and surgeries who do the wrong thing.

    Until that happens this continues to be an academic exercise, we can “say” we respect informed consent, but until we address the issues at the surgery level, nothing will change, the bad old system will continue into the future.

    Happy Christmas and hopefully, we’ll see some real change in 2016″

    • Elizabeth I love it! I always feel Anne doesn’t really say much, just says we have choice. I think they won’t be in any hurry to roll out self testing or blood or urine testsx

    • Thank you for the link. Reading through the comments you can see how misogynistic Dr Mackie is, especially the last one. She says that more girls should get the HPV vaccines because they spread the virus to boys. Because it is all about heterosexual sex. Doesn’t she know that the HPV virus can also be spread through homosexual male sexual activity? Men get cancer from HPV but there is not screening forced on them. And the logic that follows the immunity for 20 years from the HPV vaccine is flawed too. So if the immunity wears off when a woman is over 30 and she has some new sexual partners after that even after age 40 because don’t forget we are all sexual beings regardless of our age, the immune system might be less strong with age. What is the advantage of that? Are all women going to be monogamous or celibate by age 40? By age 50 no one will find use attractive so the surgeons can start cutting off our breasts and removing our uteri. What trash!

54. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151205073753.htm
    “Breast screening program found to be effective in preventing some invasive cancers”

    “Lead researcher Professor Stephen Duffy from QMUL said: “There has been controversy over whether ductal carcinoma in situ will ever become invasive cancer. This is the first study from the screening programme which suggests that a substantial proportion of DCIS will become invasive if untreated, and it is therefore worth detecting and treating early. People can be reassured that detection of DCIS in the breast screening programme is benefitting the patients.”

    “The research was funded by the Department of Health Policy Research Programme and NHS Cancer Screening Programmes.”

    I didn’t put this article under References and Education, in my opinion, it’s the same people and groups protecting the program, not women. More women are choosing not to screen because of concerns about over-diagnosis and overtreatment; this is an attempt, IMO, to address those concerns and get these women back in the program and to allay the fears of those soon to be offered screening.

    We know over-diagnosis is a serious issue with breast screening, over-treatment can damage your health and even take your life. Breast screening is a very close call, I consider it harmful, the risks of screening exceed any benefit, I won’t be having it.
    Does this research reassure me? Hardly…
    I wonder if these people and groups will ever give up.
    I suppose when jobs, reputation, ego, power, politics and huge profits are at stake, women don’t really matter. I’d like to see the NCI’s assessment of this “research”.

    • The team at QMUL are very pro-screening, and everything I’ve seen by Stephen Duffy supports screening. Patnick was head of all screening programmes before Anne Mackie was appointed, so they are all the usual suspects presenting the “screening is best” mantra. You are right, their jobs, and whole academic departments depend on it, so they want the funding to prove these programmes work. One of their team came up with a test for HPV by using mouth saliva, and won an award for it, but that’s the last I heard of this. They’ve probably axed this project, because it will do them all out of their jobs, but their website is worth following to see what the “enemy” is up to. I’m hoping to get a lot more information on all this when I start my new job next month.

      I noticed from your previous posts that they are going to change the cervical screening recall letters in the UK, but only for next June. 6 months to wordprocess a letter? I think I will try writing to some politicians…

      • I can’t wait for you to start stirring the pot from inside the kitchen, Ada…
        I’ve sent an email to the Nordic Cochrane Institute asking them if they plan to release a statement about this new “research”.

    • There is no doubt that screening will catch some cancers and save some lives. The key word is some. The issue is that screening programs with vested interests minimize or ignore the risk of harms including false positives and over treatment which are far more likely. I can’t remember the exact number but is it fifty-percent of detected breast cancers are false positives or benign cancers aka cysts. I’ve read of women having double mastectomies for DCIS and believe that their life was saved. That is a lot of women facing over treatment and unnecessary physical and psychological stress. There needs to be accurate information presented about all cancer screening and the risks and benefits so individuals can make an informed decision either way. Unfortunately the pro-screening hyperbole gets out there which the medical profession believes which puts peoples health at risk. Individuals also need to know their legal right to refuse screening without losing access to medical care. Because of incentive payments doctors are firing patients who refuse to screen which is unethical and illegal.

55. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/views/blogs/copperfield/call-off-the-mumsnet-vigilantes-we-were-doing-our-best/20000774.blog&ved=0ahUKEwj04oyEm4zKAhWBORQKHQcODXwQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNHdDYgOyzhloGg-51EHEqQUZskC4A&sig2=2FZF7T-SnFrk1aZwmhqLjg

    This was an interesting find. Although only accessible to health care professionals, it is good to see there are people among them who back up what many of us have written about on this website.

    • There’s no doubt in my mind the Pill was used to abuse women.
      I certainly noticed the very overweight or less attractive women got the Pill with a blood pressure test and the very attractive got the works, naked, their entire body probed, prodded and palpated, sometimes every 3 or 6 months.
      I knew these women were being assaulted, I knew these men were using their professional position to assault women.
      I could almost predict the “requirements” for each woman.

      It didn’t take much to find these exams were not clinical requirements for the Pill but a call to one of the medical associations told me doctors could do whatever they thought was clinically necessary. Now when you give some that sort of power, some will take advantage, it was safe too, if they were challenged, they were simply being thorough, a good doctor, and any complaint by the woman would fall on deaf ears.

      It was a time of shocking abuse, these doctors knew it was unnecessary and that’s why these invasive exams were only required when someone attractive was seated in front of them. Needless to say, I decided never to use the Pill, I refused to submit to a sexual assault simply to get the Pill. Abuse can be subtle too, listening to a heartbeat around the bra, asking another patient to remove her bra, being “thorough” with some patients, not with others etc.
      I’m not saying every doctor took advantage, but it was not a rare occurrence, certainly some thoroughly enjoyed their position of power.

      So initially it was male doctors taking advantage, later it was female doctors too…why?
      Chasing screening targets & target payments and some female doctors had/have a militant approach to pap testing, all women MUST screen.

      So IMO, the introduction of female doctors didn’t make it easier to get the Pill…coercion continued, no Pill without a pap test. Even today the AMA and many doctors still “link” the two, pap test and the Pill. Some doctors, at the very least, use that consult to pressure and mislead women into pap testing. It’s certainly the main reason IMO, the AMA and others are vehemently opposed to the Pill moving to OTC status. (some still do TUBES and bimanual pelvic exams as well)
      Doctors acting as gatekeepers for the Pill has given them (and continues to give them) enormous power over women, they don’t want to give that up…

      More needs to be done to stop doctors doing unnecessary pelvic and breast exams – you should not be able to say, “we were taught to do a pelvic exam and breast check in Medical School in 1967 if a woman wanted the Pill”….if doctors don’t keep up, if they’re doing an exam that is not a clinical requirement, then they should have a problem. They’re not being thorough, they’re incompetent/out-of-date or perverse.
      The Medical Board use that test to judge a doctor’s conduct, was the exam clinically necessary?
      So why is there still a casualness when it comes to the female body, that some continue to do unnecessary breast and pelvic exams – they are no longer recommended and are not clinical requirements. If a doctor insisted or recommended a quick feel of the testicles before prescribing Viagra it certainly would not be viewed the same way, what’s the difference?

      • He says the medical profession has moved on, but a lot of women are still carrying the trauma of all this, and will do for the rest of their lives. Not so easy for the women to “just move on”.
        I too think the problem is far more widespread than he is acknowledging. This screening programme and contraception have been an open door to abuse, and I believe the stories are just coming out. Many have had bad experiences they just want to forget, and not post about.

56. Oh dear… This petition is all over the social media “Keep pap smears and pathology services free!”. The Australia federal government is cutting bulk billing incentives for pap smears – Yay!
    I had no idea so many of my friends cared so much about pap smears 😦
    https://www.change.org/p/health-minister-susan-ley-liberal-government-keep-pap-smears-and-pathology-services-free?recruiter=25214977&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-no_msg&fb_ref=Default

    • The public’s ignorance is epidemic! This article was posted by a usually informed intelligent Aussie Greens senator on Facebook. Yes of course there was good chance the author of this piece was going to be diagnosed with abnormal cells on her cervix, she was only 17 at the time..
      I can’t seem to find the comment section.
      http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/why-cuts-to-womens-health-services-are-deeply-personal-for-me-20160110-gm2yf5.html

57. Si, I’ve been following the discussion too and posted on a few sites
    If Sussan Ley is serious about reducing wasteful testing, she’ll have to look at women’s screening, it’s the elephant in the room. You only have to do basic research to find our cervical screening program is excessive and is not evidence based, it’s framed to maximize profits for vested interests and harms so many women. Our new program is better but still sides with excess. HPV testing from 25…should be 30, then 5 yearly HPV testing until 74 when 5 HPV tests in total should be enough. Also, HPV+ women should simply be offered a pap test, not rushed off for colposcopy and biopsy. I don’t believe our doctors are incompetent, IMO, these measures have been included to ensure healthy income streams for vested interests. (knowing they’ll worry and harm a lot of healthy women)
    There are major issues with breast screening too, including the madness of extending the program to include women aged 71 to 74. (more over-diagnosis)

    http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jan/06/pap-smears-will-cost-after-changes-to-pathology-rebates-say-labor-and-greens

    • I have contributed to your post Eliz, but so sad to see so many replies to be so misinformed. I’ve had as much as I can stomach from reading a few pages. Unfortunately, I seem to be unable to upvote you.
      There is still a wall of silence on the future of the UK programme. A meeting of the UK national screening committee was held in November and the minutes still have not been published. As the Netherlands launches its free self test option we still have no news on what is going to happen to the UK programme.
      I think they are watching what is happening in other countries very closely.

      • Ada, let’s hope our programmes now on its knees in its death throes! I’m not on twitter or social media and I read your comments about women getting their “invitations ” and being unimpressed, are they the latest group of new eligible women?
        Linda your leaflet sounds like the last one I got, with green and brown flowers on it? I read about the health of your cervix and laughed. Mine is perfectly healthy away from all their bull!
        It does still says on the webpage for NHS cervical screening that it’s your choice and you have the right to not go and that you can tell your doctor not to invite you any more, even if the new leaflet didn’t come yet? But we all know what they say and do are exactly opposite!!

      • Thanks, Ada
        I think many Australian women are still clueless when it comes to this testing. The world is a small place but I don’t think we’ve been looking and listening, they’ve accepted the screening story. It’s been easy to keep the abuse going here with so many trusting women, like shooting fish in a barrel.
        http://www.mamamia.com.au/medicare-pap-smears-not-free/
        I don’t really follow this site, but decided to post yesterday, I’ve responded to Amy and Leah. You find many more informed women on UK and US sites these days, we seem to be about a decade behind the rest of you.
        Thanks for posting, Ada, I’m still a renegade on most Aussie sites!

      • Interesting I often get the comment from Aussie women, “if you’re not a doctor, how can you say it’s bad medical advice?”
        There seems to be an attitude that only doctors can read and understand medical journals, attend medical conferences, look at foreign programs etc.
        Your Hazel Thornton is very knowledgeable, a fierce advocate for informed consent, but initially had no formal training in medicine, she was “treated” for ductal carcinoma in situ after a routine mammogram. (she may have completed some courses since, I’m not sure, I know she now lectures at Leicester University)
        I responded to a post from an ob-gyn on one health site, he argued that pap testing was still necessary for HPV- women as adenocarcinoma is not linked to hrHPV.
        Wrong! I provided him with some references and he admitted he was mistaken…doctors are not perfect. I’ve found GPs often have a poor understanding of cancer screening and statistics, but some women will only listen to doctors.
        “You’re not a doctor, what would you know?” is a fairly common response here.
        My mother used to say that to me, “when did you go to medical school?”…she doesn’t anymore, she now understands there is a lot more involved.
        You can see how easy it is to take advantage of some women, they’ll only listen to doctors, and how difficult it is to reach them, they usually become unreachable.

      • Hi Ada,
        Actually, the misinformation is so bad and so confidently delivered I don’t know where to start…cervical cancer runs in families, Australia has the lowest rates of cc in the world, pap testing stopped an epidemic etc. etc. Not many informed comments that’s for sure…

      • “Wrong wrong wrong. What the Dutch do not tell you is that there is a large amount of testing of women off program. This off program data is not captured by the simplistic epidemiologists. The Finnish program has seen cervical cancer rates increase. Their pathologists now admit that they have gone from one of the lowest cervical cancer rates to one of the highest rates of cervical cancer in Northern Europe. They thought it was the cytology was not good enough, but the real reason is that the do not start screening early enough, and over time women have been exposed to the HPV at ever earlier ages. UK went from commencing screening at 20 years to commencing at 25 years. Now they have an epidemic of cervical cancer in young women. This is one of the few organised screening programs that has experienced a rise in cervical cancer rates and done absolutely bugger all about it. This despite being told on a number of occasions by a pathologist who has devoted her life to cervical screening. In fact, said pathologist has been actively excluded from debates about the future of cervical screening in UK for daring to challenge the orthodoxy of the clowns that occupy the epidemiology departments in London.

        Ostensibly Australia tests every 2 years but there is published data to show that optimal participation rates are only achieved at 3-5 years, with very little evidence of overscreening. So the official screening interval may be 2 years but the actual intrerval out there in GP land is 3-5 years.

        If you could reach the ATSI women in remote Australia, where most but not all of the cervical cancer arises, Australian rates would still be declining not plateauing out. By the way Australia has the lowest cervical cancer rates in the world. There are certainly NO arguments to follow the Dutch or the Finns.

        Before knocking Australian practice, you need to understand that cervical screening is a cancer PREVENTION activity. Breast screening and colorectal screening find cancers, by comparison. If you want to see what happens when you stop cervical screening go to the former Iron Curtain countries where cervical screening and publicly funded health collapsed or was made to collapse at the behest of the Chicago school of economics. Western countries would have experienced and epidemic of cervical cancer due to the sexual revolution that started in the 1960s had it not been for cervical screening. I suggest you take a more sophisticated view of cervical screening.”

        Ada, what do you make of this comment? I certainly haven’t heard that Finland now has the highest rates of cc in Northern Europe.
        I know you certainly don’t have an epidemic of cc in the UK.
        We don’t have the lowest rates of cc in the world, I’m sure that’s still Finland.
        I know the argument that screening stopped an epidemic is wishful thinking by pro-screeners. I’ll respond but just wondered whether you’d heard the claim about Finland.

      • http://eco.iarc.fr/EUCAN/CancerOne.aspx?Cancer=25&Gender=2

        This person is spewing out all the pro-screening clichés in one jumbled mass. I replied as Mildred and my post is a few posts down. I’ve said epidemic, what epidemic? This has been lifted from the article by Peto et al claiming that cervical screening had rescued the UK from an epidemic. If you read this article a short way in the authors admit it is pure speculation, but this article is often quoted as the truth.
        Levels in Finland are so low, the population is only 5.4 million, and they only have 2/100,000 with cc each year, and 1/100,000 deaths, but wait, maybe last year a couple of extra women got it, and hey presto the cc figures have risen 100% just like that! OMG an epidemic!

      • Thanks Ada
        I’ll do a bit of research today, I want to make sure it’s still correct to say that Finland has the lowest incidence of cc in the world. I can’t find anything that puts us in that position, we have the lowest mortality rates from cc, but seem to be second to Finland as far as incidence is concerned. I’ll check the link you’ve provided too, thanks for that.
        It doesn’t make it better though, these rates have been achieved at a horrible cost to women – our over-treatment & excess biopsy rates is the stuff of nightmares.
        I know most of his comment is factually incorrect…

      • Hi Ada
        I responded to his comment and asked for his reference, if we had the lowest incidence of cc it would be screamed at us from every direction, I’ve checked online and Finland keeps coming up. Switzerland is cited as having the lowest incidence for a couple of years.
        I think you’re right, an extra Finnish woman means cc has increased by 100%, “sounds” scary. (and that’s all that matters to these programs)
        We’ll see if s/he can produce a reference, given the comment includes some incredible throwaway lines, I suspect we won’t hear from him/her again

    • Hi Elizabeth. Thanks for linking this article. The Guardian won’t let me comment as below the article it states “This discussion is closed for comments.
      We’re doing some maintenance right now. You can still read comments, but please come back later to add your own.
      Commenting has been disabled for this account”
      Very frustrating! I was able to read your comment though, thankfully you got in before they closed. I have a feeling not all comments expressing outrage were made by concerned women . . .

      This article was more user friendly and let me post a comment: http://www.smh.com.au/national/backlash-against-possible-pap-smear-charge-grows-20160105-gm03gu.html?rand=6908867

58. With Linda’s permission, here is the “invitation” letter she received:
    

    • This letter Linda had looks like the last one I had only mine never said when my test was die on or about community clinics. Apart from that the wording is identical…

    • Many thanks for posting this Sue! My last one was from 2003, so I’ve often wondered what they looked like nowadays!

    • That letter reads like paps are compulsory and it’s a summons instead of a reminder. No where does it give enough information to make an informed decision or say that you have the legal right to refuse. I can’t believe they’re allowed as they can’t be legal.

      • Exactly ADM, the leaflet received states. It is there to help you decide but it gives no clue as to what you do if you decide not to accept their “invitation ” or indeed how to opt out of the system you never asked to be part of. Under the pro and con section all it says is some women find the test unpleasant. Of course it doesn’t hurt at all lol…

59. Not only are women pushed into screening, i am helping an elderly friend out and the women in the us medical field are nastist bitches ever. would they let some ione treat their mom they way they treat these people. this lady needs skin cancer surgery. i brought her dr paper to the rehab.
    this bitch ignored this surgery is needed.
    i can’t stand dealing with these bitches. they would take advantage of this women if I and others were not watching.

    i’m glad i don’t have to deal with drs much. i can’t stand it!

60. This comment on the Mamamia site makes me suspicious:
    “Thank you Eliz52 for explaining this to me.
    But what about testing for teenagers and younger women?
    I know of a few teenagers, even a 14 year old who died from cervical cancer.”

    She knows a FEW teenagers who’ve died of cervical cancer! I doubt that very much…

    • My feelings exactly, a 14 year old dying of cervical cancer, really?

      It was very depressing reading the comments, but perhaps this has already found its way into the Guardian Australia files:
      http://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jan/06/cancer-screening-benefits-are-overstated-experts-claim?CMP=share_btn_tw

      At least you have a few people around you, who are open to discussion about this. I have forwarded the odd article like this to my sister and SIL and had a stony silence in return. They are both hard-wired to accept that everyone should have screening, and I have been unable to show them that there is another side to the story.

      • Interesting that Son of Gwalia who dismissed my comment on the Guardian article has 12 up votes, I have one when almost his entire post is incorrect. I’ve asked him to provide a reference for his claim Australia has the lowest incidence of cc in the world.
        The rest of his comment is incorrect, but it seems some people are happier hearing what they’ve always heard: screening is great!

61. Also this article here has recently been posted on the “Even Stars Explode” website:

    http://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.h6080

    “A systematic review has shown that the public has an inflated sense of the benefits and discounted sense of the harms of mammography screening, the cervical smear test, and PSA screening”.

62. I don’t know if any of you can access this discussion of breast cancer screening on BBC Radio Mark Forrest show, also posted on the Even Stars Explode website.
    Anne Mackie and Susan Bewley start talking at about 1hr 10 mins into the programme and speak for 10 minutes on breast screening. Very good to hear.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03cg3lb#play

    • Yay to Susan Bewley and Boo to Ann Mackie. This woman is so full of shit it’s hard to know where to begin. She doesn’t even acknowledge the problem of overdiagnosis, just keeps spewing out those tired old lines and invented stats about ‘lives saved’
      I laugh when I hear her blathering on about the new leaflets being more honest. It is an improvement on the old one, true, but then the original leaflet might as well have been written by the Brothers Grimm.
      Biggest kick in the teeth is that they still make the blatant claim of saving up to… what is it now? 4,000? 5,000? 10 million? lives, yet also claim that ‘it is not known how many women have unnecessary treatment’? Seriously?

      In regards to the BMJ article, when are people going to open their eyes and see the elephant in the room? Those who are critical of screening have nothing to gain from doing so, in fact they have a lot to lose. Whereas the screening enthusiasts have a vested interest – the director of the screening service is paid (probably very handsomely) to run the program. We all know that a program is judged by it’s participation rate so as long as take-up is high it’s judged a ‘success’. And to hell with the people harmed along the way – we’re just collateral damage, I guess. Victory at all costs.
      And the charities gain more supporters as a result of overdiagnosis, of course.
      Pah. The more I look at it, the more it looks like a scam.

      BTW, the new cervical screening leaflet has a simplistic little line drawing of the procedure, clearly designed to make the process far less intimidating than it really is. And where did they obtain this diagram? Jo’s Trust.

      • Hi Kate. I went on the office of national stats last night and incidence in UK is now as low as 2.1 per 100 000. so she can’t be right. If as mackie claims it is 4000 – 5000 or any other number you care to pick then the programme is a disaster. My first leaflet in 1991 said it was about 3000 back then.
        Also these people forget that anyone can access the births and deaths for the area they live in their local library. I’ve been back hundred years in St Helens and I can only find 1.

      • Hi Kate. I want to say that is 1 in the village where I live. Not the whole of St helens.

63. Hi All. Yesterday I reported my letter to the European Court of Human Rights. I explained that no other country in the world sends letters worded like that to its women. I highlighted areas where it leads women to believe there’s no choice. I told them a great deal of my story and that i have not had any redress by the nhs. That i thought this would be the sort approach if Nazis had won. This programme operates illegally under two of its mandates and also the several Nurenburg medical trials mandates. I accused them of knowing about this programme and not doing anything to end it or at least change the letters to acknowledge it must be a choice. I gave my full name so they can get back to me.
    I have also written privately to Anne Mackie. Because i need closure on this. I truly believe that i had extensive treatment for no reason at all as not only did i not have cancer but i didn’t have sus cell either. I believe a smear also caused a mis.
    I copied Ada’s letter to send to Cancer Screen to take me off the programme. If they ask me to come in for a chat with my Gp they will regret it.

    As for writing the Finnish getting more CC. I believe they are just saying this because Eliz has gone on so many sites highlighting the Finnish programme. They are desperate to stop the pro falling apart and are plugging all the holes. The programme is in its death throes as Kat said so we will have a real fight on our hands for the time being. The internet is full of lies and wrongs we will have to be more inventive.

    Its not about us anymore its about all the young ones out there. I look around at their faces and i just know whats in store for them.

    The book on amazon has stopped being downloaded please take a few minutes to go on and change this. The other ones where its free has soared into hundreds of downloads.

    I will organise another one soon. X

    • None of it adds up, Linda. The death rate in 1950 was 11 per 100,000. It had gone down to 6 per 100,000 by the time our fabulous (excuse me while I throw up) program was rolled out. So if the program were preventing the deaths of 4,000 women every year in this country that would mean the death rate without screening would currently be 15 per 100,000.
      As it stands there are around 3,000 cases per year, so if screening has halved the incidence rates, as the leaflet claims, then we should be preventing 3,000 cases.
      Oh, but wait! It’s stated that ‘rates of cervical cancer have halved since the 1980’s, largely due to screening.’ Largely. Which means that screening has prevented fewer than 3,000 cases. The leaflet also claims that regular screening can reduce your risk by 75%. How can they possibly know this when there was no RCT? Anyway…
      Incidence rates have halved, from an estimated 6,000 cases per year to 3,000 cases, some of which is due to natural decline. So fewer than 3,000 cases prevented by screening.
      And at least one in four women who develop the disease are failed by the program – false negatives. So it’s a lot less than 3,000. And this is the incidence rate, not the death rate.
      I dunno, it all sounds very fishy to me. But then maths was never my strong point.
      Perhaps I should become a statistician and get a job with CRUK because they don’t seem to be very good at maths either.

    • So it comes down to they’re making up numbers or skewing numbers to fit their agenda. Is that not academic fraud. The rarity of CC makes the focus on the pap test incredibly ridiculous but regardless of the incidence rate or if it was a major cause of death a woman has the right to decline screening. Informed consent and and informed refusal has been blatantly ignored by the screening organizations and the medical profession.

      • Interesting…the font of all wisdom and knowledge who posted a response to the article in the Guardian stated there is little 2 yearly screening in “GP land”, most testing is 3 or 5 yearly…wrong!
        The latest report into our program says 58.2% of the target population had 2 yearly testing, so the majority of women are still being seriously over-screened.
        An additional 11.8% screen 3 yearly and 13% 5 yearly so over 5 years about 83% of the target population have been tested.
        Of course, I have no idea how accurate these figures are, I know they’re happy to crunch numbers and engage in creative accountancy, it’s almost a necessity to keep the leaky boat afloat. I always felt that making it sound like most women were screening was a way to scare women who decided not to screen…make you feel like the tiny sheep on the edge of a cliff. I wouldn’t trust these people for a second…

64. Linda,
    I’ve always believed this program violates our human and legal rights, it’s way beyond unethical. It amazes me they still get away with treating women like lemmings but that’s what power and huge resources can do. Well done, hopefully, more women will follow your example.

    I strongly suspect that some women make up deaths from cc to scare other women into testing, perhaps, they think they’re doing the right thing, they’re not.
    I’m also sure doctors and other vested interests do the same thing posing as a survivor or claiming to know young women who’ve died from cc.
    What are the chances that someone would know a “few” Australian teenagers who died from cc, the youngest just 14? I don’t believe it…
    I’ve checked various sites and the youngest case I could find in the developed world was 19, that happened in the UK. The incidence rate for teenagers aged 14 to 20 is about 0.01% here in Australia, these early cases do happen but not at 14 and it would be freakishly rare, you wouldn’t know a “few”…
    It may be a disgraceful attempt to keep women in the dark, scared and compliant, another desperate act. These people/groups have no conscience, anything can be justified to reach another cervix. I’m sure this forum is monitored by pro-screeners and vested interests.
    These stories end up worrying and harming a lot of women, I have nothing but contempt for these people/groups.

    • I agree Eliz. There seems to be ‘too many’ women saying a timely test saved their lives and they wouldn’t be here now. Even the NHS says CC is rare in under 20’s yet there seems to be dozens of these kids all saying the same thing. As a writer and a teacher I ‘feel’ in my bones when something isn’t right. I read ‘inbetween’ what’s beeing written to the point I can actually go on the different sites and point out the comments that have been written by someone other than a genuine cancer survivor.

      Also I am shocked by those having treatments to cure cells believing this saved them. I had numerous treatments but had the ‘audacity’ to ask what exactly was wrong with me. Amazingly they came clean and said ‘nothing at all’ I wonder how many of these so called suspicious cells are also ‘nothing at all’ like mine but clinics just feel they have to treat someone becasue they have been reffered but know there is nothing actually there to treat.

      There is no end to this scandal.

      I hope ‘vested’ interests and other health care proffs monitor this site. I hope Anne Mackie does. As ‘sisters’ they should be looking out for ‘our’ interests. We all know the terrible history of women on our planet at the hands of doctors.

      No one here is saying cervical cancer is a ‘myth’ and its not real. It exists. What we are asking is for the ‘facts’ presented in a fair and balanced manner. What we want is for any health screening to be our choice. If it turns out that some women want to screen then fine. But offer them a better and more pleasant way to do it. eg. self screening or urine tests.

      This could all be worked out so easily. I also have nothing but contempt for these people. Me and John could easily have been left alone. I struggle with mental health issues and you only have to be in my presence a short while to figure it out for yourself.
      Basically they have taken advantage of me. They are not our phsyicians. In fact I don’t see them all that differently from the doctors in any of the caoncetration camps. Don’t forget many ‘practice nurses’ offered their services in these places for FREE.

65. You’re right Linda! Its hard to see where our program can go now. They’re waking up to the fact poster campaign’s of smiling happy women aren’t getting us to have our smears, scare tactics are falling on deaf ears and more women are taking to the internet and even telling their doctors no to their faces when being pressured to screen. Don’t they need at least 80% of women to comply for them to crunch the figures to make it appear the program is effective? I think its very interesting that the minutes of the future of British screening meeting haven’t been published. Short of making it law of the land we must screen or face jail(I’d go to jail) what can they do? And its thanks to sites such as is and women such as Elizabeth, sue, ada and Linda that we’re where we are now!

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