This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion.
Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.
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forwomenseyesonly 
http://www.sofeminine.co.uk/healthy-living/your-cervical-cancer-pap-smear-test-d48207.html
“Your PAP smear test is the mandatory test set out by the government to check for any abnormal cells in your cervix so that they can be treated.”
A MANDATORY test….it’s an old article, 2013. I’m not familiar with this site, I’ll send them an email
anyway.
Mandatory! No wonder some women think the test is required by law when you read this sort of rubbish and no jumps on them demanding a correction.
Actually this is something that really worries me. Here in the UK our government is hell bent on eroding. Civil liberties. And they have also floated proposals to remove sickness benefits for the too obese to work unless they accept help to diet. Alcohol and drug abusers have to accept help to get clean and back in to work. Love these people or hate them the fact remains it’s still forced medical treatment that probably won’t work. Fast forward, how long before things like smears are required by law because let’s face it we could get cc and require sick benefits and time off work… Me I’d refuse and go to jail or plead poverty and offers to pay a fine at £1 a week but some others….
Didn’t Jola say they tried such a scheme in Poland but it was rightly thrown out due to the outrage?
And yet they cater to people with “behavioral disabilities,” even when they outright antagonize/invade the country!
So there saying rape is mandatory?
Hi Kat. Some people can’t cope very well with life and turn to behaviours that upset the government. Instead of creating jobs and looking after people and making society better – they criminalise and stigmatise whole groups. It is so wrong. Plus the weather is so bad here of course we turn to food, alc and drugs to comfort ourselves.
Elizabeth or Sue, do either of you have any links to medical studies or the rates of CC prior to pap testing? I was trying to look up the statistics, but the only thing I could find was articles which stated “prior to the invention of pap tests, cervical cancer was one of the main causes of death in women”. That’s too bold of a statement to make without using evidence to back it up, but unfortunately, no statistics were presented.
Hi Ro. You are asking a great question but it’s unfortunately difficult to find medical studies that reveal rates of CC prior to pap testing. Prior to pap testing all reproductive cancers were grouped together which makes it difficult to determine what effect pap testing had. Here is a relevant article from the Lancet . . .
1995 Jun 10;345(8963):1469-73.
Detection rates for abnormal cervical smears: what are we screening for?
Raffle AE1, Alden B, Mackenzie EF.
Abstract
We analysed rates of detection for smear abnormalities in 255,000 women served by the Bristol screening programme. The programme began in 1966 with the aim of eradicating the 30-40 deaths each year in Bristol from cervical cancer. Organisation has been good and population uptake has been high for the past 15 years. Records were computerised in 1977. During the 1988 to 1993 screening round, 225,974 women were tested. New smear abnormalities were found in 15,551, of whom nearly 6000 were referred for colposcopy. These numbers are excessively high in comparison with the incidence of the malignancy we are trying to prevent. The effect of screening on death rates in Bristol is too small to detect. Our conclusion is that despite good organisation of the service, much of our effort in Bristol is devoted to limiting the harm done to healthy women and to protecting our staff from litigation as cases of serious disease continue to occur. The real lesson from 30 years’ cervical screening is that no matter how obvious the predicted benefit may seem for any screening test, introduction should never take place without adequate prior evaluation of both positive and negative effects in controlled trials. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7769901
Another good article: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2003/may/22/genderissues.publichealth
Elizabeth might have more relevant articles to share.
I’ve found an article:
Reduced cervical cancer incidence and mortality in Canada: national data from 1932 to 2006. Dickinson, James A, Stankiewicz, Agata, et al
BMC Public Health, vol 12, 2012, pp992
It is available online through our university library and has many detailed graphs in it.
Thanks so much for the reply and insightful information! It does make it tricky that they lumped everything together like that.
Hey, Ro. Did you know that before that, it was Evil Eye?
Also, they never mention what their span is- is this one in a group of 100? 1000? What?
Also, might it just be seen that way by people in those times because that was the thinking?
Also, did you see the new PDF book that Linda put out? I didn’t read the whole thing yet (it IS a bit rougher for me, maybe because I’m a guy), but it seems like it turned out good.
It could be a combination of those things.
I did start reading it, but it’s a lot to process. I’m reading it in increments. It turned out very well! There’s a lot of good information.
Ro
I’m working away from home at the moment, I’ll check my references next week and get back to you. I’m sure Ada can probably give you the information you need, she’s a rare and precious walking library on the risks and actual benefits of women’s cancer screening.
Thank you so much! The reference Ada listed was great.
Hi Everybody. I’m glad to see you’re all still here fighting the good fight for we women. I have had great success buying birth control pills from this excellent source in Mexico; ask for Ricardo Escobedo; he speaks perfect English and is appalled at what women go through in America to get something they sell in pharmacies in his home country of Mexico: http://www.mexmeds4you.com * With my IRS refund in 2015, I bought and received, beautifully packaged, 100 packs of birth control pills for $7.00 per pack. The postage fee was minimal if there even was one. $7.00 per pack, no problems, no unnecessary doctors’ visits or useless exams. They accept PayPal, too. I also still use that trusted website in Vanuatu (near New Zealand) for my inhalers. They sell birth control pills, but tend to be out of stock frequently (gee, I WONDER WHY?!?) and they are on the costly side although I have certainly purchased them from them and had absolutely no problems with them whatsoever. You only can pay with your debit card, but it’s worth every penny. http://www.inhousepharmacy.vu.
Hi Torrance,
Nice to hear from you.
It’s incredible that women have to go to such lengths in 2016 simply to get birth control without the pressure (or being coerced) into elective cancer screening and completely unnecessary pelvic and breast exams.
We have so many unplanned pregnancies, I so often hear doctors and others wondering why…start with the unnecessary barriers placed around birth control.
It’s a big thing the Pill starting to come off script in the States, I doubt that will happen here, certainly not in my lifetime. The AMA and other vested interests need the Pill on script to force, pressure and mislead women into unnecessary consult visits, pap testing and other excess, they’ll fight to remain gatekeepers of the Pill.
One of the problems I think is the way of thinking that so many people have is that woman accept screening or should be OK with it. You can see it in TV movies and shows. They seem to make lite of it almost a joke that its apart of every woman’s life. So they don’t seem to see tiring paps to birth control as a bad thing and so many woman go along with it.
New article results in the BMJ:
“Why cancer screening has never been shown to “save lives”—and what we can do about it”
http://www.bmj.com/content/352/bmj.h6080
I visited my brother and sister in-law out of town. Well we were talking and my brother made a comment saying his wife is always going to the doctors “because she is a girl.” He also said that he had not had a physical since leaving the military about six years ago. He said my sister in-law “made him go and have a physical.”. Nothing was found wrong. I love my sister in law but it erks me how she trys to push her beliefs of on others. When I was there I skipped two days of showering because I wasn’t feeling well. She keep telling me I had too have a bath. I’m not around many woman but I notice there is a common way of thinking with a lot of woman , they seem to know what’s best for others and I hear things like you ” have to have paps. You have to bath and wash your hair every day.” What happen to people minding there own bussness. It just erks me.
Hi. There is an add at the moment on Brit TV showing a women getting the all clear for CC from her Doc. He tells her that it was fortunate becasue she overcame her fear of smears to have one just in time. Her husband it sitting next to her nodding as if somehow taking the credit for convincing her to go.
Beginning in St Helens and the surrounding areas in March there is to be a campaign putting reminders to go have smears on all the till receipts from local £1 shops. Apparently the Liverpool districts have the lowest uptae in Britain. They aren’t stupid or just not getting the message – they think for themselves. I know Liverpool people. They won’t take any rubbish as they think for themselves.
Freakish! Why shouldn’t they be afraid of these procedures? It’s not all that safe or accurate (numerous risks can be realized, including loss of life/fertility/functions/etc…).
It’s not impossible for any of these people, certified or not, to simply attack someone & use the means at their occupational disposal to do it.
It’s potentially in the best interest of the medical personnel to actually DO harm or at least lie about a problem until it progresses to a severe level, so that way they can “treat” these conditions for fun or profit (or both). Not to mention that sometimes people don’t question the pedestal they’re put on & only polish it- thus, they’re not going to be too quick to catch any of the issues that are present with their doctrine.
Liverpool sounds more interesting than some other areas of the UK (I hear there’s this new place called “Londonistan”).
I just posted this:
“Thanks, Anne
Also, are you aware of this ad?
It was mentioned by a UK woman on a forum for people concerned about the current approach and conduct of women’s cancer screening programs.
“There is an ad at the moment on Brit TV showing a women getting the all clear for CC from her Doc. He tells her that it was fortunate she overcame her fear of smears to have one just in time. Her husband it sitting next to her nodding as if somehow taking the credit for convincing her to go.”
Does this ad respect informed consent? Does it convey information on the risks and actual benefits of cervical screening? Does it respect choice?
We’re being told informed consent matters for women, yet we continue to see this sort of campaign, I call them scare campaigns.
Or, this: “My Mum missed her smear, now I miss my Mum” (says a young child)
We can “talk” about informed consent, but until the scare campaigns stop, IMO, it says to me there is no respect for informed consent.”
https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2015/08/03/how-do-we-help-people-decide-if-screening-is-the-right-choice-for-them/#comment-122034
* hope you don’t mind Linda, I didn’t mention your name or this website, but if she’s at all concerned about informed consent, the scare campaigns have to stop
Hi Eliz. Don’t worry about using my name. I have been lobbying all sorts of groups just recently using my married surname. Its like I’m ‘coming out of the closet’ I want to make a stand against this and I can’t continue to hide using just my first name ‘linda’ or any other psueado.
I have given it in the comments section of the statistics site Ada posted. Perhaps my doctors will see it. Who cares?
The minutes of the latest meeting of the UK National Screening Committee have just been posted, and unfortunately, they announce no changes at all to our Screening programme except to say that the test will change to HPV primary testing. It doesn’t say when this will happen, so sadly it looks like the UK will still be running its 3 yearly tests when other countries will have moved on to 5 yearly tests.
A big disappointment.
May I suggest we find out who to complain to…the broadcasting authority?? And bombard them with complaints? It’s absolutely ludicrous and there must be something we can do. Still guess it proves they’re getting desperate…
Kat I think that is what we must do. These people think that running these campaigns will make them popular, and I think it’s important to let them know that they do not have universal support on this. Only yesterday I got an alert that Dewsbury MP Paula Sherriff asked in the House of Commons about women under 25 being able to get smear tests. I’ll be contacting her and letting her know that a lot of women don’t want this. How many times has this come up already and been spelled out to them, but still these stupid MPs keep trying to pull the “feminist icon’ vote. Those who shout loudest for the cause are the ones who soon stop going for smears, as the ” Jade Goody” followers soon vanished from the statistics after her death.
Ada its amazing if that’s the word. They got all this money to spend chasing women and advertising on TV about being scored of smears and they spend none of it on improving self testing or urine\blood testing which probably would increase uptake ! Which surely would be a good thing of they are so concerned for women’s risk cc. I’ll leave a comment on the stats site too
Hi Kat,
Every time I see that comment that women are scared and embarrassed about smear tests it absolutely makes my blood boil. It’s never used about men not wanting to take up the offer of bowel screning. I think they are really concerned about the screening figures dropping lower and lower. The last figures in that brochure I just posted were pre HPV vaccination cohort. I’ve read somewhere that only about 63% of vaccinated 25 year olds attended screening last year, and the older “brainwashed” women who are regular screeners will be dropping off the programme, I would hazard a guess that this time next year, they will struggle to reach the 70% viability target for the programme. I had hoped to see news of what would be hapening over the next 5 years as we have seen in NL and AU, but there have been no announced plans to change the UK programme at all. I saw adverts for the Delphi screener being offered at the reduced introductory offer of 100 pounds, as an incentive to get women to try it. I’m sure I’ve seen alternative HPV home tests cheaper than this, but when I checked recently, they were no longer sending them out separately, you had to go in and get a smear done as part of the package. I think the government would like to shift the whole screening business into private hands, and they were trying to tempt the more wealthy women to go private for their smears and get them off the NHS programme to save money. I don’t know if many women took up the offer. The bottom line is that, women have simply stopped caring about cervical cancer and are fed up with it all. The costly research which has been done, shows that very little actually works to get more people to attend, and the human rights violations of the 1990’s are hopefully a thing of the past, now that we have the internet to access the truth about these programmes.
Unfortunately, the medical propaganda machine has a huge momentum. Medical bureaucrats have zero respect for true facts, people’s privacy or choice. The only kind of reply one may get from these parasites is a carefully composed copy-paste letter with the same propagandistic bull$hit the person was complaining about in the first place. The situation is much worse in women’s health care: female medicine has always been used as a source babies for the state, profits for the medical profession, and brownie points for politicians. The true wellbeing of women is its last concern, if a concern at all.
However, as obtuse, harmful and deceitful the whole system is, it doesn’t mean that we should shut up and give in. If we continue writing, complaining, posting true information and helping poor brainwashed women to see the truth, there is a chance for a change. Perhaps, far away, but there still is a chance. If we give up – that’s it. They will smear us to death.
I admire Elizabeth’s knowledge and determination. No one can count how many women she already saved from horrors, pain and cervical butchery!
Anne Mackie says they care about informed consent, yet we continue to see scare campaigns, this is more evidence she says one thing, knowing something completely different is going on…
Linda, can you give us a link? I’d like to send it to her and ask her to explain how this type of ad respects informed consent, it looks like a scare campaign to me.
Hi
I just can’t make this address into a link for you to access so I have copied the following information.
Click to access Supplementary-Cancer%20Screening.pdf
Increasing Participation in NHS Cancer Screening …
modgov.sefton.gov.uk/…/Supplementary-Cancer%20Screening.pdf
Appendix 3: Merseyside Cancer Screening Initiatives …. Till Receipt campaign to raise awareness of the.
Included is a plan to send postcards out to all the ‘young’ non responders. They also intend giving away nail files with the screening message on them. The till receipt campaign for bowel screening has now finshed but the cervical one commences in March.
You won’t be aware of this, but there is a bus in the Merseyside area which is found frequently parked up in the middle of all our town centres. It is calles the IVAN project and has been operating now for a few years. They often catch passers by with the offer to go inside and talk about cancer screening. I have never been caught and pass it as quickly as possible.
I’ve sent a number of letters and emails out to different places over the past week. Anne Mackie, Sofminine, WHO and to my GP with the Opt out Form with a small note attached as well as St Helens and Knowsley Councils. I haven’t heard anything yet and to be honest I don’t expect to. I’m only just beginning to get an inking of what you have been up against for all these years Elizabeth. I’m amazed you didn’t give up somewhere along the way. We are like voices in the wilderness shouting out and hardly anyone listening. Its one thing to go on this site whinging about my experiences but is quite an undertaking to take on the powers that be.
As for the add shown on TV I have only seen it once. I will watch out for it coming on again and try to record it. I have looked on YouTube for it but it doesn’t seem to be there. I don’t no where you are in England Kat, but if you watch TV you will come across it for yourself I’m sure.
Alex – I thought your comment about ‘polishing thrones’ was quite funny. You have a very interesting way of expressing things. I don’t blame you for not wanting to read the download as It is quite upsetting in some places to read what is being done to women. When I asked John if he wanted to read any of it for himself, the colour drained out of his face immediately. Men like to think/look/touch/ that part of our anatomy but shudder in horror at the thought of sujects we discuss here.
https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2016/01/14/cervical-screening-what-the-statistics-indicate/
This new brochure has just recently been published as part of the new PHE Screening website. It is worth a look. As we are already a year beyond these dates and the HPV vaccinated women have come into the programme since this was published I wonder if the overall attendees for cervical screening have now dropped below the 70% viability mark?
“Our latest report ‘Cervical Screening Programme, England, Statistics for 2014-15’ highlights a fall in cervical screening coverage for both younger and older women.
At 31 March 2015, the percentage of eligible women (aged 25 to 64) who were recorded as screened adequately within the specified period was 73.5%. This compares with 74.2% at 31 March 2014 and 75.7% at 31 March 2011.
Coverage amongst women aged 25 to 49 years (measured at three and a half years) was 71.2 % at 31 March 2015. This compares to 71.8% as at 31 March 2014 and 73.7% as at 31 March 2011.
For women aged 50 to 64 years, the coverage (measured at five and a half years) at 31 March 2015 was 78.4% which compares to 79.4% as at 31 March 2014 and 80.1% as at 31 March 2011.”
I’m in South east England Linda, Bedfordshire to be exact and I’ll keep a look out for the advert… X
I noticed this Part:
a total of 4.31 million women aged 25 to 64 were invited for screening in England in 2014-15 and 3.12 million women were tested, representing a fall of 3.3% from 2013-14
And this Part:
in 2014-15, a total of 198,216 referrals to colposcopy were reported in England – this represents a slight fall of 0.6% from 2013-14 (199,322 referrals)
That is a lot of colposcopy referrals of which a very tiny few will go on to get CC….maybe? What a waste of money, time and resources – all for screening healthy people, not to mention the distress this cause women.
Hi. I have left a comment on the stat site. I explain why I think their numbers are falling year on year. It isn’t a rant so I am sure it will pass their moderator. I will check it later. The only thing is writting on this pad is not easy and as usual in my scripts there are some spelling errors. It reads well apart from that.
I have been recently watching a documentary series by Adam Curtis called “The Trap”. It explains that the political and economic theories were changed in the past decades to making health management (and other departments) about numbers. For the NHS the workers were given statistical goals to meet and the liberty to reach them anyway they could or lose their jobs. The theory was that people are driven only by self interest and nothing about the common good or compassion. This game theory was also used in many other countries. So if you have ever felt like you were just a number in certain situations, then that is just what you were.
The series also made me question just how do people define freedom.
Some comments copied from a Practice Nurse blog. Informed consent anyone?
“Posted: 14-Jan-2016 16:39
Does anyone have any advice for chasing up overdue smears on Emis Web. so hard to do searches to find these women. ( and then they don;t come anyway!)How do you contact them or chase them up? Thanks for help.
Posted: 18-Jan-2016 13:17
The availability of smear testing has decreased in our area, sexual health clinics don’t offer and it is only available at GP practices and only with Practice Nurses. Less and less Gp’s do them. Could this be why drop I uptake? Some women like to have a smear done by someone unknown to them and not in their GP practice or they like a GP to do?
Sorry, I’m not answering your query. Our PM searches and gives me a list. I may personal contact with pt’s, letter/phone call..works some of the time
Posted: 19-Jan-2016 21:47
I usually go onto QOF on Emis Web and look under public health [?]and it should bring up cytology. From this it will give you a list of all the women who had a smear in the last 5 years and those that have not [excluded].You can then use this list to contact patients……by letter or phone. Who does the cytology prior notification lists/non-responders on Open Exeter at your surgery?? A member of the admin staff does this at my surgery and when patients have received x2 routine smear invites but not responded we then generate a third smear invite. We also put on major alerts to try and catch them opportunistically but it can be very difficult to get the women to come in. If we get returned mail/have moved we remove them from our list.”
Thank you very much for these comments, Mint. Very interesting to hear that some GPs are not doing smears at their surgeries anymore. From what I have read, the QOF targets give GPs 11 points if they achieve the 80% screening target, but I think they used to get more points than this before. QOF points have been much reduced feom what they used yo be. Many GPs hate the QOF targets, and because it is a voluntary scheme, some have opted not to do them at all. I have read that the entire county of Somerset has opted out of QOF targets, and others are looking into this. I think little by little, and very quietly, so the press doesn’t get hold of the story, this screening programme is being dismantled.
Do post some more of these nurses blogs if you can. As we’ve long suspected, it is ignorance among nursing and reception staff that is keeping the hassling going.
My devious mind noticed an interesting bit of info in the last sentence……what if you cross out your address on the envelope, write “not at this address” on it, then toss it in a mail box to be returned. It might get you taken off their list…
Hex
Good idea! Kind of like when you write the address you want it to go to as the return address & then mail it without a stamp.
I’ve read this sort of thing before and even worse, the attitude is shocking, but it must come partly from the surgery. Pap testing is not treated like elective screening, it’s more something everyone has to do, so it’s a question of rounding up the stray women. You don’t see the same approach and attitudes with something like bowel screening. I know the Govt sends out the self-test kits, the GP does the pap testing (and gets a target payment) but there seems to be little concern or interest in bowel screening.
There are problems with both tests, that’s why informed consent matters, but when they’re banging on about saving lives, bowel cancer takes far more lives than cc. No wonder some women assume cervical cancer would be rampant without screening and bowel cancer is not such a big problem.
It’s dangerous stuff, deceiving us into viewing tiny risk as high risk and higher risk as not much risk.
I think many of these nurses would be shocked to hear that women can reasonably refuse pap testing.
The waste of resources should be a scandal, so much time and money for phone calls, letters, visits etc. Some women stay away because of the pressure to screen as soon as they walk into the surgery or consult room, this approach means some women can’t access healthcare.
That’s plain wrong…
I thought they’d changed the target payment system in the UK, I know the high targets resulted in shocking abuse – women routinely embarrassed, bullied and ridiculed into testing.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3390168/Migrant-rape-fears-spread-Europe-Women-told-not-night-assaults-carried-Sweden-Finland-Germany-Austria-Switzerland-amid-warnings-gangs-ordinating-attacks.html
We have a new research officer in the office, she’s 21…she wonders: why is it when some women want to make a point they feel they have to take off their clothing?
If it’s to attract more attention to the cause, aren’t they doing what we complain about, using the female body to sell a product or message? Men don’t see a need to stand naked to make a point etc.
She thinks the men would have been delighted with this protest, great opportunity for a perv.
It naturally received a lot of media interest as well.
She also felt it was inappropriate/irresponsible given the recent surge in the number of sexual assaults on German and other European women.
I know it’s her choice to protest in this way (in Germany, she’d be arrested here for indecent exposure)
Some of the women in the office were also outraged by all the gratuitous full-frontal female nudity in “The Game of Thrones” (great care was taken to protect the privacy of the men)
Some also objected to the Robert Thicke video, “Blurred Lines” – he’s in a suit, the women strutting/dancing in tiny g-strings.
I was curious: how would you answer her Q?
I agree. I hate seeing female nakedness as well. I have no problem with nakedness in general (men and women in tribal societies walk around naked all the time) but when it is portrayed in a sexual manner (as it is almost always invariably done with women), I find it darn right offensive. As a woman, it angers me. Why are OUR bodies on display for public consumption?
Again, women shoot themselves in the foot with this one. I’ve heard as many women as men go on and on about the “need” to “celebrate” the “female form” in the guise of endless celebrity female shoots in the newspapers. Nowhere near as many men “celebrating” the “fine male form” though (unsurprisingly).
I’m sure this sort of thinking is part of the problem that goes along with the culture of screening.
Of course if you complain, you’re a “prude”.
Again, I don’t find it merely ironic that this sort of “liberation” has come at a time when we’ve gained equality in almost all other areas of our life.
This might be the last remaining vestiges of paternalism that some subset of males are still desperately clinging onto.
http://mic.com/articles/56069/a-feminist-takedown-of-robin-thicke-and-anyone-who-thinks-there-s-something-blurry-about-sexism#.eZ98IeEBV
Some interesting points on sexism…
Wow, words fail me, the nude Swiss protester also, “performed” outside an art gallery, eggs full of paint falling from her vagina onto a canvas.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/22/vagina-egg-paintings-artist-milo-moire-video_n_5191877.html
I noticed that this took place in Cologne, where many German women were assaulted in the New Year celebrations. Could there be a connection between women behaving like this in public, and the assaults from an influx of large, single men into the country from another culture, by any chance?
These women make me very angry. They claim it is liberating women, yet we all know it does exactly the opposite. It ridicules us, makes us sex spectacles, and porn like this increases sexual attacks on innocent women. Agree with the art critic that it is vacuous and desperate. She needs help.
Sorry the last sentence needs to be deleted as I definitely don’t agree with this kind of art!
Done, I’ve deleted the sentence Ada.
I agree Ada. Perhaps she has mental health issues. Its deff the product of a warped mind. I like art but i dont think if this as art at all and neither does anyone else. X
I can’t understand why this was allowed to go ahead in a public place. Would they have allowed a male artist to paint a picture by peeing naked over a public square. Surely any man going around naked like that would be arrested in no time. Why is female nakedness all over the place, but not for men? I am sure it is all part of the culture that our bodies are expected to be available for all, and men’s are not.
I was so sorry to read about your elderly friend, Linda. It is simply appalling that she was opened up like that, just for these nurses to practise on, and have a gawp. A smear would never have been accepted at that age as she would not have been part of the programme. It was mischievously exploiting an elderly woman.
IMO, If you can call something “art” you can get away with a fair bit, some “art” makes me very uncomfortable, some of it makes me feel ill.
I took my mother to a well known modern art gallery in Hobart a couple of years ago, the building is astonishing, that was definitely worth seeing, but a lot of the “art” left me scratching my head. There was a room housing a defecation machine, the smell was appalling…”anal kisses” was another series, an “artist” had put lipstick on his anus and then sat on beautiful stationary from the great hotels of the world. A video showing close up images of pimples being popped etc.
I didn’t see much artistic merit in a lot of the exhibits/paintings, but I suppose some of it was designed to shock and generate discussion, it certainly did that…
Mum was about 80 at the time, she was admiring a “painting of the outback”…she didn’t see the character was performing fellatio on the kangaroo…and she almost sat on a piece of art, a sofa painted white!
We agreed after a couple of hours that wine and cheese and enjoying the sunshine and view was a better way to spend our afternoon.
German women, as far as I’m aware, are still taken off to the gynaecologist when they start menstruating and I think annual pap tests, pelvic and breast exams are still in place. I’ve read these exams often also include a rectal exam and internal ultrasound.
There’s also no privacy to undress, no sheet or gown provided, just strip off…(forget modesty, bodily privacy etc.)
“I would like to check that this is normal however – Aside from the shock of not having any privacy and sitting up for the exam vs laying down (in the US) there were a few things that I’ve never had done before. I had the normal exam and then the Dr did an internal ultrasound to look at everything. I can only assume he wanted to get a better look at my insides but I’ve never had that before. I thought that was only for pregos. After that he did a rectal exam to see how much distance there was between my uterus and bum (if I understood that correctly). I was taken by surprise with that one! Then for the breast exam I really felt violated. Palpitating the breasts? What? On one hand it makes me question how effective my previous breast exams were but on the other hand I felt like I was getting beat up, lol. Is this normal? http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/102237-what-to-expect-of-an-obgyn-doctors-appointment/
They also talk about the exam taking place in a “german gyn chair”…http://www.thelocal.de/20100602/27603
http://www.medifa.com/en/produkte/untersuchungsstuehle/mus4000-5-gyn.html (I think this is the chair they’re talking about…)
I’ve heard the same practice applies in France clinics too, you undress in front of the doctor, no curtains, sheets etc. http://parisblagueur.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/knowing-when-to-take-your-clothes-off.html
I’ve mentioned before that my GP often had young German backpackers coming into her surgery in the CBD asking to have their ovaries and uterus checked, she’d explain it was unnecessary, they’d leave worried/unconvinced. Apparently, some doctors sent them off for an ultrasound, others may have obliged and given them a pelvic exam. I think it’s plain weird for young women (or older women) to be worried about their uterus and ovaries, so fearful it all needs checking every year. I suppose though if these exams start early, these women IMO, have effectively been groomed to worry about this area, to fear their own body, they need the annual reassurance, without an annual check, rogue cells might start multiplying…
Does anyone know whether there is any push-back in Germany? Any changes being considered? Clearly the evidence does not support these examinations…and hasn’t for many years.
Click to access handbook10-chap3.pdf
Hi Elizabeth, I uncovered this 46 page handbook, which you can download, and which compares cervical screening programmes throughout the world, but I already think its a bit out of date. It praises the over 80% screening figure achieved in the UK, no mention of the illegal and unethical measures employed to achieve this, but this has already slumped to 73% nationally now. Our figures have always been higher than everyone elses because of the GPs incentives to pester and bully. The other Euro countries have screening rates much lower of about 60-70% screening rates.
In the articles you posted, it looks like they are Americans expecting to continue these yearly exams whilst living in Germany. The German gynes have probably seen them coming, and thought they could claim the full whack from getting an American in the chair. I can’t answer for German and French women as I don’t know any well enough to ask them, but it seems that screening is more voluntary, and only about 60% go. Those who do go get the full works, but there seem an awful lot who don’t bother at all, and these seem to be those well-informed or of the working class. The well-woman business has always been taken up by the well-heeled middle class, and I think this is the case in France and Germany. I have read that one third of French women have NEVER had a smear test, so although I’ve seen reports of French women getting the full works too, I wonder just how many of the population turn up to put themselves through this. I think it is more voluntary in these countries – some women go, and a lot don’t bother. It is different to our UK system, where the incentive payments have robbed UK women of any choice in the matter, and robbed us of our human rights.
Reading about the woman who had the breast check and the rectal exam as well, I think the gyne thought he’d do everything and earn himself a whopping reimbursement for doing that woman. What on earth did she go for if she didn’t know what was going on. Seems to be the average American who sleep walks into yearly exams, without knowing why she’s doing it. I think she was had.
With both my pregnancies, my creepy exGP gave me the 2 fingers job at 8 weeks, when I first reported the pregnancy. Thereafter, I had no other invasive exams. One abdominal ultrasound was done at 18 weeks, with knickers firmly in place. Every 4 weeks midwife checked the size of the baby by pressing on my stomach, and listening to the foetal heartbeat, with a smalll device, which played it loud. There was no getting my knickers off for anything else medical until the baby came out, and absolutely no way was I ever asked to get my bra off for any kind of breast exam, visual or otherwise. No request was ever made to examine my breasts.
I also don’t get this getting naked from the waist down. It is widely suggested in the UK that women wear a loose dress or skirt to these “occasions”. It means that you are covered up at all times in the room, and only need to lift up the skirt at the last minute. I’ve never had a breast exam, and never removed my bra for anything medical except for my hysterectomy operation.
These women are putting themselves through this because they are ignorant. I liked the British woman who posted that we don’t have any of these pointless exams in the UK. I don’t doubt for a minute that there are women in the UK who pay for this kind of perversity from private medical sharks, but am glad that it’s their own stupid fault, and the UK tax payer doesn’t have to foot the bill for them.
Ada, Immediately after the attacks in Cologne this woman decided to stand in a public square, completely naked, with a sign saying something like, “respect us even when we’re naked”…
You can see men in the background staring and taking photos…does she really think this “demonstration” will help women? What message is she sending to the attackers?
Wait, what happened? A bunch of “refugees” went after a bunch of German women & then a woman panted pictures this way in public? I think they just figure doing something “up-river” that involves anywhere on their bodies that’s female-specific is somehow being liberated.
Yeah, and I’m a “free & independent man” by waving my dick at traffic! [sorry if that offends, but I must have said worse at some point]
Hi Ada, it would be interesting to hear from some German women. I’ve read you need to see a gynaecologist to get a script for the Pill, I doubt these women simply get a blood pressure check. I’ve read that annual pap testing, pelvic and breast checks are recommended every year as well and that girls usually have their first visit with the gynaecologist when they start to menstruate, but I can’t find any numbers. Hopefully, most just ignore these recommendations, I certainly hope so. I’m also not sure whether it’s self-promotion by gynaecologists or coming from the Health Dpt.
I’ll see if I can get some more information.
Hi Elizabeth, I hope I’ll be able to find out more about this in my new job, but I agree it would be good to get some other views from Europe about this issue. The Handbook in the link describes the process in all the European countries. Only UK, Netherlands and Finland? (can’t remember), have smears carried out at their local GP surgeries, so it would seem that the rest have to find a gyne to do it, which probably accounts for the lower screening rates among the less well off in these countries, (the very women most at risk of this disease). Whilst I applaud the ethos of the NHS to make healthcare equally accessible to all, including the poorest, I strongly object to the way it has set up and run our cervical screening programme, which has been an illegal assault on our human rights over the decades. I did read somewhere, that France and Germany in the 1980’s, refused to set up organised screening programmes, because feelings were still very raw from the “round-ups” and organised hunts for certain groups in society during the Nazi and Vichy times in the 1930’s and 40’s. Even today, these countries know only too well, where that led to. No such experience of this in the UK, so they just went ahead and rounded up every woman known to the NHS in the 1980’s. UK has the highest screening rates of any country in Europe, because of the incentive system given to GPs, and because women can be cornered at every consult to a doctor, whilst in continental Europe they’d have to visit a gyne. Whilst the NHS congratulates itself on this, they make no mention of the illegal threats and bullying which take place in GP surgeries to achieve this.
It is difficult to work out who gets screened the most – is it the 60% of Germans who attend every 2 years, or is it the 73% of Brits who attend every 3 years? Whilst those Europeans who do go to a gyne for a smear will get the “full works” there are clearly a lot of never, or very low attenders, who choose not to.
I know that in Germany, healthcare is not completely free, and a small amount has to be paid for each visit. They are trying to bring this in here in the UK, as a lot of people abuse the NHS and book doctors appointments to get free packets of paracetamol, they are too lazy to buy from the chemist quite cheaply. Every year, German women are sent a voucher to pay for a pap test at a gyne of their choosing. It is up to them, whether they take it up or not. I don’t think they get the 2nd and 3rd demands that UK women have to put up with, and I don’t think there is any obligation to go. I think, when they get to the gyne, he will do everything and put in for the reimbursements as much as possible.
In the UK, gynaecology, and all other specialisms are only carried out at hospitals and in order to see one you have to be referred by your GP, who acts as a gatekeeper to you accessing higher services. It’s supposed to keep the timewasters away from wasting specialists’ time, but in Europe, if the patient has vouchers, I suppose the specialists are happy to see anyone, with money in their hands.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2016/01/20/even-disney-princesses-need-hpv-shots-cervical-cancer-screenings-and-std-testing/#2715e4857a0b532a72ad1ec1
Even Disney Princesses need HPV shots and cervical cancer screening. Apparently.
This is child abuse and too perverse for words. Why aren’t we seeing Aladdin getting his genitals poked? I find this whole idea very sinister – these Disney characters appeal to the under 10s and these medical perverts are trying to groom these children into thinking it’s normal for them to sexually exploit their bodies. I could hardly read it.
The people who thought of this have far too much time on their hands. Interesting that the ever promiscuous James Bond doesn’t “need” STD screening isn’t it?!
Well put Ada! Why don’t we see Aladdin having a swab for std? Elizabeth I see your comments about the TV ad Linda mentioned appeared on the how do we help people decide blog but as yet no reply..
Linda u gone quiet lately hope all well With you x
Hi Kat. I’ve not felt well for the past few days, tho’ I checked comments everyday. I’ve been going for long walks everyday to this cafe in the next village for a cappo then watched the margaret rutherford films on tcm of an afternoon. I’m pretty annoyed at the disney princess scam we will just have to find ways to combat it. Thanks for thinking about me.
I remembered something today i am going to put in my new book. A friend from a club I belong to was having heart problems so she went to have a heart monitor put on for a day or two. While she was there the practice nurse asked her if she had ever had a smear done. She said no. She was 78 at the time. The nurse said wouldn’t it be good to just check the health of your cervix while you are here. Now she was a fiesty cow and wouldn’t have listened to cr@p easily. But she admitted to me she didn’t know how the conversation went exactly but she ended up having one. During the exam the practice nurse asked permission to allow another nurse to have look as she has never seen such a beautiful cervix in all her career.
She always wondered how it happened that she was sprawled there while these women cooed lovingly at this part of her body.
We often talked about it and she was always saddened by this event. It haunted her really until she died of heart failure last year. She was 81. Now why the hell did these women do this to her? She was on her way out anyway but they subjected her to that. It was criminal. We often bang on about the injustice of smear test on us but i wonder how many older women those vile creatures have ‘attacked.’ This problem is probably hidden due to older people’s reluctance to make a scene or talk about such intimate goings on. After that she always took one of her sons with her for any check ups as she didn’t feel safe going there anymore on her own.
I think practice nurses are worse than doctors.
At the moment i’ve got my feet up watching a film with a glass of wine. Hope whatever you’re up to its good. X
Linda,
It’s a shame she didn’t make a formal complaint. I wonder if there is some crazy footnote to this program, if you find an elderly woman in your consult room and she’s never screened, it’s a good idea to talk her into a test.
Certainly here it might have triggered a second payment too, as a proudly unscreened woman there is a higher price on my cervix too. (although I hope that doesn’t extend to opportunistically screening elderly women)
There IS perverse and irrational interest in the cervix.
Her cervix probably looked in good condition “because” she was unscreened, she didn’t have a damaging “treatment” like so many screened women.
I corresponded online with an American woman a few years ago, her elderly mother was in a home and was pestered to submit to a well woman exam every year, that left her bleeding and distressed. Her daughter consulted a lawyer to put an end to the abuse.
The home argued if they didn’t arrange the test/exam and someone was diagnosed with cervical, breast or ovarian cancer, they might be sued. If I recall correctly, the elderly woman was required to sign a disclaimer.
Another account that’s stayed with me…a nurse finds a drop of blood on an elderly woman’s pants and does a pap test to check she doesn’t have cc. The woman’s family found her in a distressed state, now bleeding quite heavily. (I think it turned out to be a urinary tract infection)
The cervix has become the focus in women’s healthcare, it makes no sense, it’s irrational, but it’s this focus that fuels this abuse. Women of all ages are at risk…it’s not cc I’m worried about, it’s fairly rare, it’s medical abuse, that occurs FAR more frequently.
Do I fear cc? I don’t really think about rare cancers, if I’m going to focus on disease and death, it makes far more sense to worry about heart disease, but I prefer to focus on wellness and good living. As far as mammograms and well woman exams are concerned, it’s stay away from my precious asymptomatic body!
Hi Eliz. That’s terrible. Its pensioner rape! How do these people sleep at night? I would never sleep again if i did that to an older person. I always thought it would be great to live in America but when you hear about all tne gyno exams they have i shudder in horror. I bet that practice goes on in all the care homes.
She probably didn’t complain. She will have put it down to her own stupidity for allowing herself to get in that situation. She was a dignified lady, one of the last of a certain breed.
Its looking like chastity belts for women were a good idea after all.
X
Linda that’s horrific. Isn’t the term elder abuse? Truly no ones safe. Hang in there.thinking of u all! I’ve starting taking b vitamins as well as iron for the anaemia and its helping. These I’m buying over the counter as I know my beloved gp will just bang on about my anaemic cervix!!
Linda new book gissa clue? And whatever is wrong.. Get well soon!!
Hi Kat. Yes he’ll probably want to check your cervix for anaemia. Any excuse to check there.
Nurse Grimey (you have no clue how close that is to her real name but i think its funny) attacks women it doesn’t matter how old they are. She is a very dangerous woman. Or was – as she retired to look after her hubby. I used to see her in my local garden centre but i’ve not seen her since joining this site. I am going to name and shame her in my book to deliberately spoil her retirement and her peace of mind. She had no right calling herself a ‘nurse’ it is a total insult to the profession. My grandmother was a nurse during the war nursing injured men back to health at Haydock Cottage Hospital which specialised in war injuries – now she was a nurse.
Eliz is right, the cervix is the only thing docs are concerned about. Its like there’s no other bits to us only that. Its terrible that these nurses go into nursing homes to attack women so near to the end of their lives just because they fear litigation.
Found this on itv news website, in parts of south west UK less than 70% of women have smear testing and they reckon cc is on the up. It’s mainly young women who don’t attend and wait for it, they don’t go coz they’re embarrassed and don’t understand enough about screening
Oh, it’s on the up is it? Well that must prove that the wonderful HPV vaccine can’t be working! Perhaps we could be shown evidence. Perhaps there was 1 lady in Cornwall got cervical cancer in 2014 and in 2015 there were 2! OMG, a shocking, staggering epidemic of 100% increase due to ignorant silly women! As it is once again cc prevention week, be prepared for a week of this nonsense, and Mr Music popping up everywhere chastising womankind.
Hi all. I’ve known about your old site blogcritics for a while but only thought of reading some of the comments posted today. I came across an account written by Dan about his wife’s terrible experience. I was just devestated to read it. I hope to God wherever they are right now and whatever they are doing they are happy and healthy. Truly shocking.
Ada, I’ll go through that link later today, thanks for the information.
Linda, I’m still haunted by a few of the posts on that site.
a) The older lady who finally worked out what had happened to her all those years ago: forced and early pap test when she was a virgin, false positive that resulted in a hysterectomy (yes, that happened to some women in the early days of this testing and I suspect it’s still something women opt for after decades of “abnormal” results and “treatments”)
It finally made sense, she had never married and had lived with the trauma caused by that “simple, life-saving test” for decades, a test she did not consent to have, she was forced to test to get medical care.
b) Does anyone remember Amanda? The young woman (20-something) devastated by an early (normal) cone biopsy, her life and health had been destroyed, her cervix so damaged her menstrual flow was affected, (cervical stenosis) she had a procedure to open the cervix, the problem occurred again, her relationship ended (sex was out of the Q) – she had odour, spotting, bleeding, pain, discomfort etc.
She was looking at yet another procedure to open her badly damaged cervix…
I actually ran into her on another site, a doctor had flippantly advised her to stay on the Pill to prevent menstruation, but the Pill had always made her feel unwell (headaches, weight gain, bloating etc.) and she was told she might need fertility treatment and a c-section if she wanted to have a child.
Of course, she felt her sex life was over…and that meant no relationship or children, those choices had been taken from her.
c) The woman who lost her baby after her “treated” cervix failed, born premature, he passed away a few days later.
d) The woman (30s) who almost died after a cone biopsy, (massive bleeding) she ended having an emergency hysterectomy and in the ICU for several days, her gyn told her she was “lucky”, her cone biopsy was fine.
I’ll never forget these women, never stop grieving with them for all they lost, thanks to this “life-saving” test. These are the woman no one wants to know about…and I can tell you, their numbers greatly exceed the number of women actually helped by this testing.
Well said Elizabeth. All those poor women swept under the carpet and trampled on by the pink propaganda juggernaut. No-one spared the mutilations as they go about “rescuing” us from this rare disease. The pink charities never reveal the harm they have done. I’ve never contacted any of them for help, and as an ex-cancer patient, they should be there for people like me, but I wouldn’t give them a penny because they’re only in it for themselves. It’s a never-ending round of lavish dinners, award ceremonies, and self-congratulatory publicity on the backs of people’s illness. If they came near me I’d tell them to pi$$ off!
You would think someone in authority somewhere would call time on this programme but I know that will never happen. It will literally be up to us. So many women have been harmed you would think that everyone would know about it all by now. It seems more are speaking out about the breast crushing programme. So perhaps its just a matter of time.
I am putting together a new book as this is the only way I know to get the message to women. One of the chapts will look at ‘medical mens’ millenia long interest in women’s repro’s and some of the things docs did to women during the holocaust. Their desperation to examine all women’ parts never goes away and haunts us down the ages. If either of you two want to get involved i am more than happy to work with you both again.
A curious thing happened to the first book on monday. It was downloaded on ibooks 24 times in about 6 hours. While its doing great (100’s now) i thought this sudden flurry on that site looked strange as most of the dowloads are from smashwords or nook and kindle (during the ‘free’ days.) I am hoping ‘someone’ has stumbled across it.
Ada, do you know if ibooks is the preffered device of people in the medical community? Most people i know have kindles.
Linda would you consider working with me over the Holocaust angle? I married a Pakistani Muslim hence my name, but under Jewish law I’m Jewish as was my mother ( it passes through the mother). I feel it’s my duty to speak out about the Holocaust and learn as much as I can about it! I never reverted to Islam , I’m still me!
That’s not the reason I don’t screen, for religious issues, I just felt violated and outraged by the test. Just! Anyway…
Hi Kat. It’d be great to work on another book together. I would like a chapt on the history of womens exper’s. Right from the beginning ‘medical men’ have had a fascination with our repro’s. From the causes of hysteria, to the reason we’re unformed men, the circumcics in the C19th to the forced internal exams of Jewish women in the camps to the rolling out of mass smear testing. Its all relevent.
I don’t know about contents of other chapts yet only tinkering at the mo. X
Just let me know! They certainly did plenty, from experimental sterilisation using poisoning and massive doses of radiation so the victims burned, they also tried insemination using animal sperm at one time (unbelievable but true)!
And doesn’t seem to of progressed much since! Now we have the cervical screening programme!
So now some obscure research has made it into the Guardian suggesting a link between HPV and breast cancer. But wait – the Gardasil vaccine can prevent this happening! It sounds like Big Pharma propaganda to me.
“The researchers identified 30 low-risk and 20 high-risk HPV types in 855 of the breast cancer cases. While not conclusive, the finding strongly supports a growing body of evidence linking HPV to a small subset of breast cancers.”
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jan/29/sexually-transmitted-virus-strongly-linked-to-risk-of-breast-cancer-study?CMP=soc_567
Hi Si
I smell a big self-interested rat…very convenient “research”…wonder who funded it?
A bit like the research going on frantically trying to find a continuing reason to keep women having regular pap tests for most of their lives, “it might pick up uterine and ovarian cancer”…
It “might” do a lot of things including leading to a lot of grief…and the chance of the latter is bound to be high, certainly a lot higher than the chance of benefit.
Incredible they have so much money to spend on this sort of research but then a fortune is made from this testing (and aftermath) so vested interests must be frantic about the cash cow running off the rails. It makes good business sense to find another compelling reason to keep women on exam beds having pap tests every year or so.
“I too have very valid reasons for not wanting the test – I was sexually abused – added onto that I had extreme heavy bleeding which resulted in many intimate examinations and hospitalisation for a full emergency blood transfusion with some very harsh and uncaring medical staff who seemed to view me as a slab of meat with no compassion at all (one nurse even shouted at me and told me I was stupid because I began shaking and said I was scared).
I’ve now had a reminder today and feel sick with fear ”
Hi Ada, I’ve sent a private message to Cammie inviting her to join us and to speak to you about opting out of the UK program (if that’s what she chooses to do)
Feeling sick with fear…it’s so unfair what this program and it’s supporters do to women, life is far too short.
i got a letter from my ( ex) health insurance company. it said i haven’t had a mammogram in 2 yrs and i should have one. they say that these test i may benefit from. i don’t have that insurance anymore! who are they to say what test would benefit me,
i don’t have mammogram because i feel they are a violation and have many false ositives that lead to other tests,
The us health system is about $$$ nothing else
If I were you I’d rip up that letter they have no bussnes sending that to you. I’m tired of people and organization s TELling woman what they should have done to there body’s.
believe me i have. i don’t even have that insurance anymore. me too.
http://msmagazine.com/blog/2016/02/05/the-cdc-tells-women-not-on-birth-control-that-they-cant-drink-seriously/
Paternalism is alive and kicking with these preventative recommendations from the CDC in the US, to pressure women of child bearing age not to drink alcohol unless they’re on birth control. Just in case they become pregnant and subject the potential human to FASDs.
It’s alarming that women might forget their ability incubate other humans is far more important than, well, being a person – with the ability to make decisions about their own bodies without interference from the government, and the medical fraternity!
I’m not against woman who. Choice hormonal birth control, but some woman use other kids of protection and also all woman are not asexually active. It seems like there hear in the states really push the pill as the only way to prevent pregnancy. Thin to tack it onto well woman exams. It all seems like a marketing scam and yes it implys woman don’t know there body’s . we ” need special care remember”. Lol
Yes, in the U.S. they mainly see us as baby incubators, even those of us who are in the LGBT community, have said for years or decades we’re child-less by choice and so on. If you don’t want children, the healthcare torturers will cluck at you as if you are eight years old and say you don’t know what you want. That’s why you have to be prepared to spit statistics at them and learn how to say “no” in a way that leaves no room for doubt.
Ironic, too, how all the smears, mutilation, and unnecessary surgeries galore are presented here under the guise of “fertility sparing.” Many women in the U.S. have suffered from ill health for decades; in most cases, from illnesses that are far more prevalent than anything having to do with the cervix. Doctors here DO NOT CARE about women unless it’s to force us on the pill, demand that we have kids (even if we don’t want them), police our lives, or diagnose us with mental illnesses we don’t have. (The new “hysteria” is actually psychiatric abuse. Read about the campaign to diagnose everyone with bipolar from the 90s or the abusive, propaganda-filled way Prozac was marketed “for PMS” in the early 2000s.)
In the U.S. I find that you may “respect” women who want to use the Pill, but it’s never a two-way street. Dare you even mention that the Pill makes you sick, or that you have been harmed by endless cervical inspection and monitoring, the brainwashed pro-female inspection committee will scream at you about how you are a woman-hater and anti-feminist.
“The age for screening via the NHS commences at 25 by invitation. Thereafter between the years of 25 to 49, it is every three years and from 50 to 64, it is every five years.
Younger women who are sexually active from a much earlier age ie during teenage years, could still have cervical abnormalities and an earlier smear/screening test would be advisable. Currently, a screening test is not available before the age of 25 via the NHS, but it is available earlier in the private sector.
Women who are not sexually or have never been sexually active have a much lower risk than women who are sexual active. For these women, it is not compulsory and a woman may choose to decline. Accepting an invitation for cervical screening for women who are not sexually active is important, as cases have been reported in women who are not sexually active.”
Interesting choice of words: “for these women it is not compulsory and a woman may choose to decline”…no wonder some women believe these tests are compulsory.
I wonder how many young women (under 25) in the UK end up screened in the private sector, with some people/groups pushing to lower the screening age and the misinformation and scare-mongering that follows an early case of cc, I wonder…
It doesn’t matter if you’re sexually active at 16 or 17, smear/pap tests are not recommended before age 25 or 30 for a reason, they don’t help, but carry the fairly high risk of false positives, excess biopsies etc.
This UK gynaecologist also promotes well woman exams, these women probably think they’re looking after their health, when the reverse is the case. I imagine some US and other women go looking for these exams if they’re living or working in the UK.
When the smear test is not recommended for young women and the well-woman exam has not been recommended for many years, it makes me wonder why more isn’t done to stop these private clinics promoting these services (no mention of risk v actual benefit) – it’s more than peddling your services, they’re misleading women and endangering their health.
http://www.femalegynaecologistlondon.co.uk/dynamicdata/cervical_screening.php?pg=gynaecology&pageid=MzY=
A lot of these private health care practices get people through the door by offering all sorts of tests and we’ll women exams, for about £150-200, which is well within most people’s budget. Trouble is, they nearly always find something that requires further (unnecessary) investigation, which they charge a lot more for. It is at this point people then switch to the NHS demanding free hospital appointments for MRI scans etc. An 18 year old getting a private smear test is bound to get an abnormal result, but doesn’t have the £1000’s to then pay for the further tests and scans, so they go to their NHS GP demanding to get a hospital gyne referral, but the GP can’t do this without there being any symptoms, and cannot do another smear test as it will be rejected by the cytology labs. It puts a lot of time wasters onto the NHS. There are often long queues for MRI scans because of this.
So according to this female gyn, cervical screening is not ‘compulsory’ for virgins? This terminology has no place in any description of elective screening tests.
Listen up world, cervical screening is not compulsory for ANY of us.
hi I found this site two years ago I’ve not had a smear test for over five years am 43. I live in the u.k so I have had reminder letter’s come though my door. they make me feel sick and angry then they go in the bin.The smear test programmes and the campaigns for this test makes me feel like I just don’t want to be a women. I have a ten year old daughter I worry so much about her future I just hope thing’s will change.
“Deciding whether or not to have a screening test is your choice. To help you decide, you can also read the NHS Cervical Screening leaflet (PDF, 453kb).
If you don’t want to be invited for screening in the future, contact your GP and ask to be removed from their list of women eligible for cervical screening. If you change your mind at a later date, you can simply ask your GP to put you back on the list.”
Hayley, thank you for contributing. The above statement has been copied from the NHS website on cervical screening so it is official that you can opt out. I would print this out and take it should you need to visit your GP and think that they might pressure you into having a smear. Like some other ladies on this site, I have a teenage daughter and am very worried about what awaits her when she turns 25. I want to do all I can to spare her the treatment that was metered out to me in the 1990’s. That’s what spurs me on.
Hayley welcome back! And I second Ada. My daughter is. 19 and I didn’t have her vaccinated..
I don’t think she’ll screen when she’s “invited” but it’s her choice. She knows about this site and my. Contribution to the book..
Please don’t let your doctor railroad you into testing if you don’t want to! And make sure your daughter has all the facts so she can decide for herself. She’s lucky to have a mum like you! X
hi katrehman yesterday was the frist time I left a comment on this site. I’ve changed my name to Hayley may. I try my best to avid going to my docters the last time I went was because I had premenopausl symptoms, All she wanted to do is send me to a gynaecologist for test I’ve not seen my g.p since. and I will not be going to any gynaecologist. All I wanted was a blood test.
Hi Hayley May. I hope you are ok. Welcome to the forum. I’m so glad so many women are coming here in search of answers their own doctors can not be bothered to provide.
Menopause is an entirely natural phenomenon. Its part of being a woman. Its wonderful and liberating and not in any way an illness or disease for a doctor to investigate. Just go with it and if you have any problems you don’t like or are not sure about just look on the internet and buy the appropriate herbs you want. This next chapter of your life – in pre history before men got hold of religion – simply means you are maturing into a knowledgable and wise woman worthy of society’s respect.
Hi All. Ada put a reference on the site earlier and I have spent the afternoon reading it.
If you type in – cervicalscreening.legacy you will find a wealth of info on the incredible changes to the programme in the UK. They are moving away from smear tests to self testing for HPV. Also a lot on how best to deconstruct the huge workforce surrounding the screening programme. There are several docs to download and they take a lot of reading. Jo’s Trust is bleating on about falling numbers but other than that there feels like change is coming.
The programme of forced mass rape could be over.
So glad you were able to access the document, Linda. I only have my phone at the moment and am finding it really difficult to post links. I hope the document has cheered you up. There’s a lot to read, but it’s the latest news I can find.
Hi Hayley may I couldn’t agree more. I’m going through menopause and I’m lucky only minimal problems. I got advice in boots and take black cohosh as I don’t appreciate the night sweats even though mild. What horrified me was at my migraine review the doctor asked about periods and menopause. There’s never been any links for me between. Migraine and hormones and even though I said symptoms mild he was putting pressure on me to accept HRT (probably another way to try and enforce smears and mammogram) I refused point blank and told him it wasn’t up to discussion! I love the freedom from periods! I also get a lot of advice and support from the women here… Please stay around too!!
Thanks Ada. I’ve done a great deal of reading today as one document leads to another as you well know. I read one which suggests as far back as 2010 they were wondering about ceasing women at 50 if they had previous neg tests due to the fact its diff to get good samples.
I’ve been quite excited this week because of new friends posting on the forum. Penelope, Haley, Shana and the others including the brilliantly named – cat & mouse who’s come back home! I hope we haven’t lost Samantha – she is so young I hope she will be ok.
I hope the new job is still ok. Thanks for the links to screening.legacy its amazing.
John is out with his mates so i’m sitting here having a nice few reds.x
Linda, I’m always glad to be able to help with information, and I’m always on the look out for more recent news on the future of our terrible programme. Much as we’d love it to collapse like a house of cards, we clearly have a major face saving exercise going on here, and they seem keen to reduce the programme as much as possible, whilst still saying how wonderful and indispensable it has all been. I attended a local talk on bowel screening recently, and it was openly stated that future screening programmes are proceeding extremely carefully because of the blunders and mistakes made with the breast and cervical screening programmes. I think they are aware that with hindsight the programmes would not have been rolled out as they have been, but, as Eliz says, at the GP level, it is business as usual with many GPs still pushing the test like a double glazing sales pitch. I am sure there are many in the NHS who wish these wretched programmes had never been invented.
I used to work part-time, but I’ve gone back to working full-time, and am enjoying my new job very much, but come home worn out. Not as young as I used to be! I don’t work in anything to do with screening, of course, (how could I?), but I’m now hoping to find out much more about what is going on.
Ada I wonder if in about another 30 years (if not before) they will be saying the same thing about the HPV vaccine programme? Because we still don’t know what will happen to these women later in life? Whether their fertility will be affected, god forbid if their kids have vaccine linked abnormalities.. Whether they themselves have early menopause? I’m still extremely concerned about the vaccine. I never had my girl done but my cousin had her daughter vaccinated..
Hi everyone. I’m still here I look in everyday to read your comments. Linda u mentioned the UK were changing screening to self hpv testing. Is that true? Do u know when that will happen? I still worry everyday about it all. I’ve got my first counselling session next Thursday and I just know they’re going to ask why don’t i like people down there and the thought of smear tests. I know I’ve got to go for other reasons as well,but the thought of them going on at me saying its not as bad as you think,makes me want to cancel all together. X
Hi Samantha, we don’t know when they will bring in the new test, I think they are keeping this the big secret, because once women will know the date, they’ll hold off getting smear tests until then. This is what’s happening in Australia, as many are waiting for the new HPV test to come out in 2017.
If your GP mentions smear tests, calmly point out that the RCGP (Royal College of General Practitioners) issued a statement last year to all GPs that no patient should feel pressured into having a test they didn’t want, and that GPs should not be pushing the tests on women at appointments. Ask for an opt out form if they keep on. It is your right to opt out of screening if you wish.
Samantha,
Pressuring patients into having screening exam is a common tactic. Don’t let them use it. Here are a few suggestions you may find useful
First, take a step back, take a deep breath or two and relax. If you’ve ever done yoga, it’s often called finding your focus or peaceful concentration – in martial arts we call it finding your center or simply centering.
Second, knowedge is power. Elizabeth and others here have posted links to many factual sources on the accuracy (poor), risks (many) & benefits (few) of pap smears – print them and read them. As you have experienced, providers will make false and miseading statements in an attempt to coerce you into agreeing to the test. When they do, chalenge them – demand they provide you a copy of published research results from recognized reputable sources that support their statements.
Third, never let them pressure you into doing something immediately – they’ll make statements like “let’s just get this done whie you’re here today” – don’t fall for it.. Firmly tell them you will not be having the test today, but will review any written information they provide, along with information from other sources in order to reach an informed decision, and will get back to them if you decide to have the test.
Last, and maybe most important, never forget that you are in control.They may try to imply otherwise, but they can’t do anything without your consent. NO is a very powerful word, don’t be afraid to use it. If you say “NO” and they push you, look them straight in the eye and ask “What part of NO don’t you understand, the “N” or the “O”?
Sorry this was so long – hopefully you will find something in here you can use.
Be strong, and be true to yourself.
Hex
Hi Samantha. I’m afraid they will pile on the pressure. When I was your age it didn’t take much to make me cave in to pressure. My advice to you is to get knowledgable with the arguments surrounding screening. If you go on cervicalscreening.legacy you will see they are slyly deconstructing this bad programme. The powers that be can not publicly acknowledge CC is rare and fear of it has been massively overblown. The programme harmed lots of women and its a vile genital exam that women given the choice don’t want. However,they are more worried about what to do about the massive workforce to be made redundent more than anything else. They talk about the very low morale within the screening workforce. From what I read they are aiming for 2018 to make the changes as they are still waiting for the results to be collated from the HPV experiment.
Hi Kat. I’m glad you didn’t get your daught vaxed. Not enough is known about its effects. In America they are forcing this vax on the pop. The girls can’t go to schhol without being vaxed. There could be allsorts of probs that appear in the future. Infertility is one. I’m sick of humans forcing their ideas on everyone else. Everyone colludes to either manipulate our thoughts or force us to do things with no choice. I’m glad you kept her safe.
Linda thanks. With my girls medical history plus food / drug allergies and sensitive immune system it would’ve been plain daft to risk it the vaccine! It’s funny, she begged me mum I don’t want it!! Hope you’re Ok. How’s book research going? X
The book has stalled kat. I’ve written an introduction and have a quote from eve ensler writer of vag monologues about women activists. I’ve done a plan. chap 1 is a look at the behaviour of docs through the ages starting with the concept of hysteria and repro organs, then move on to doctors role in the inquisition in the middle ages. Not very many peopke know their exact role and most people assume it was priests that did all the torturing in fact it was docs who did things to womens privates to get them to confess as the priests themselves had no clue about female physiology. Their role in the holocaust and how they subjected women to vag exams and other terrible things. I would like to tie them in with despite feminism and womens lib they found a way to meddle with us ‘down there’ through gynaenocolgy then Dr Paps discovery which lead to the forced exams of women for the past 30 years with pap smears. Do you fancy this one it would mean doing a lot of research. It would give you a chance to do some resesrch on Jewish women as well? But i apprec i’m asking a lot.
Or – would you like to write something on the lines that when you go on the internet there is often headlines from local newspapers like ‘women in (anywhere) not having their smear tests’ or ‘women in (anywhere) urged not to ignore their smear invites’ that basically its the same story just cut and pasted to fit wherever they are hassling women that week. Beginning Dec last year there was a lot of that going on. It could also be tied in to how local councils have set up working groups to encourage women and the underhand way they go about it.
I would also like a chapter on internet sites like ‘sofeminine’ and others like it – the repulsive ‘ginger warrior’ site that all seem to be government and NHS propoganda aimed at teenagers in particular. They tell women to ‘get it done’ and ‘suck it up’ without mentioning risks and falseys and so forth.
I also want a chapter on ‘Goldy’ who at 78 ended up having a smear and regretting it.
If you have an idea of your own that’s fine. Its only 2016 so we have two years to complete it for 2018 when it will be thirty years since the programme actually began. I would like to call it ‘the NHS’s Cervical Screening Programme – 30 years of Pap rape?’
In the last book we only gave our first names but this time i would like to use a full name even if its a psuedonym as i think that gives it so much more gravitas.
If any one else would like to contribute in some way thats fine. Is that ok with you SUE? Would you want this site to be part of something much more contraversial?
X
Linda I prefer the first scenario, yes it’d mean a lot of research, but the medieval bit appeals. Also maybe contagious disease act later on. And the Holocaust, even the way Germany women, good Aryans, were encouraged to “stay healthy ” and pop out plenty babies for the new reich, and the experiments?? While my grammar may go skew at times, this can all be tweaked!
I’d happily publish under my name, I do on this site, I’m Kat Rehman!
Look forward to working with you and the other ladies again. It’s a great book plan. X
The Jewish side won’t be hard to research, I have studied the. Holocaust in detail, as a Jewish woman I feel it’s my duty to learn and keep the horror alive and use the knowledge to reach as many people as I can.I have a ton of books in the house. The other research sounds well interesting and it’s more for me to learn. Always a good thing!
That’s great Kat. I hope someone can come up with a better title than the one I thought up. After I posted I thought it a bit extreme. The post didn’t come up on the site for a while and I wondered if everything was ok as if it was being checked. I emailed Sue but I didn’t hear anything and it popped up so she did let it through. To be honest i’m wondering if I should tone down some of the things I accuse the NHS of on this site. I wouldn’t want to be chucked off. I rant because i’m so angry believing them for 30 years and it did feel like r@8e to me at the time. Because they have ignored me I am guilty of ‘having a go’ at them through here. I found this site in Feb and kind of went into shock. I’m like a dog with a bone over this. I wish I could calm down. Maybe I will once I’ve got this last book out of my system. I would like to go back to writing romance stories. Anyway if Sue is Ok with this new book then brilliant as its up to her really as the site belongs to her and what happens on it. If not then we can just work it between us and anyone else who wants to be part of it. X
Hi Linda. A couple of your comments got help up for moderation recently and I wanted to let you know that it was WP, not me (!) that did that. It seems to have gone back to normal now, but I should have let you know sooner. I would not do that intentionally – anything and everything you have to say is A-OK with me! This site acts up from time to time but mostly runs pretty smoothly.
I would be delighted to open another forum devoted to your new book project. Just let me know what you want to call the book, and when to open the forum. Also, anything you want to include please let me know.
Happy V-Day everyone!
Linda I’m with you all the way. I’ve not suffered nearly as much as you over smears but I’ve had a fee rants at Ann Mackie!
As I’ve posted, I always hated smears and the continual “invitations ” but I didn’t realise until you found me, that the test is basically useless and I could have been putting my health at risk through having it. I also didn’t know about the GP incentives. Payments.
I’m actually bloody furious that women (and myself) are treated this way, and over the way I was patronised for feeling so violated, when there was never any need in the first place. I’m not angry with myself but the system.
I believe it’s actually healthy to feel this way. And the support from you, Ada, eliz and Sue who’s site this is is amazing.
It’s good to rant in a safe place! I hope we can all heal together. X
These are very kind words, Kat. It is true everything you say. It is infuriating and scandalous how the truth and the incentives have been kept from women all these years. Your presence on this site and others I’ve seen you post on is always a sensible, welcoming read. You calmly show that you are an intelligent, level-headed person – just the kind that the screening programmes fear! Always good to read your posts.
Thanks Ada.. And every one else! Who’s read what I have to say and supported me. I means she lot… Most others of you are more knowledgeable than me. I’m still a newbie. But together we are formidable. Linda I think it was u said we was a pack. Running, fangs beared.. Thats the thought I hold. I’ve already sent Khaleel (hubby) into loft. For some of my books for research…
In fact, Judaism doesn’t necessarily forbid us to learn about anything. It encourages us, ladies and gentlemen, to learn and make up our own minds….
It means alot. No lenses or glasses in. Please excuse my errors
They’re working on a saliva test to detect cancer, this research was mentioned in the papers last year, it was on the News again this evening. It will apparently be cheap, about $30, and you’ll have the answer in 10 minutes, good or bad news. (they hope it’s 5 years away if all goes well)
My Q: we know after a certain age many of us will have “cancer” somewhere, but in most cases we’ll happily live with that cancer oblivious to its existence, we’ll die with it, not from it.
I certainly don’t want to know about these cancers.
Cancer can be life threatening, but we know there is tick-tick cancer as well, found in the thyroid, prostate, breast, kidney etc.
I fear this new simple, life-saving test might lead to even more over-treatment, that’s not a good thing. I can imagine an older person might get more than one positive and…how many people would be brave enough to ignore a positive finding?
This is why we need to think long and hard BEFORE we do these tests, what would I do with a positive result? It’s hard to think calmly with a big POSITIVE in your medical file and a doctor keen to refer you for more tests/to a specialist etc.
It’s terrible….but when my sister-in-law was having chemo, I did wonder how many people were there having treatment for cancers that would never have bothered them. (my SIL did not fall into that category) I cannot imagine going through that sort of hell unnecessarily…
So I won’t be rushing out for a saliva or urine test or anything else, all of these so-called life-saving tests will be approached VERY cautiously.
Elizabeth,
Your concern is very real. An excellent example is the issue of “incidentalomas” that has arisen as a result of the massive increase in the use of imaging technologies such as CAT and MRI over the last decade or so.
The mindset of the medical system is that if they see anything suspicious they must aggressively investigate further and must treat – even if the condition is not life threatening.
I agree with you – unless I have symptoms or a specific risk factor, I think I’ll pass….
Hex
Hi Hex,
Yes, I’ll largely be following the example of my grandmother’s generation, they thought it very odd that some would see a doctor when they were well.
So many of the comments made by my aunts make so much sense, they focused on living and didn’t think or worry about cancer…if they were unwell, they’d have a bath, put on a nice suit and see the doctor. You can imagine their disdain for things like mammograms and pap testing. The doctors stupid enough to mention it to my aunts got what they deserved, red face and burning ears. “Is there something wrong with you, young man?”
etc.
I’ve mentioned it before, but my father’s sisters were ahead of their time, unlike most other people/women of that generation, they were not intimidated by doctors.
Needless to say, they died unscreened women, they also thought it was madness to squash your breasts between two plates. “Perhaps they should put their heads between the plates, might knock some sense into them”….
No need to do any research, the inner voice clearly told them it was not a good idea and would not be happening…
I know these women were not subjected to the same level and type of brainwashing as women my age and younger, but I remember fondly their independent spirit, their dignity, and good health – they had long, happy and healthy lives with zero screening. (apart from the odd blood pressure and blood test in later life)
Now IMO, that’s called living…
Elizabeth – I know it sounds juvenile to say this but I hade to “LOL” at your comment regarding your aunts! There were a couple of women from the older generation in my family who were like that – formiddable women who thought screening was a load of nonsense and did not take prisoners! I’m not the most confident or assertive woman in the world but as I have gotten older (I’m 33 now, never been screened), I find myself becoming more and more like these women.. The last two generations of men and women have been far too polite and subservient. There is no way I’d be bullied into it now, I’m far too outspoken. God help any doctor who’d try it with me now.
Hi all,
I couldn’t agree more with all your comments, Elizabeth, Hex and Moo. We also had the same news item about the saliva test detecting cancer, here in the UK. Just reading Peter Gotzsche’s “Mammography screening: truth, lies and controversy” and on page 14 he writes:
“Cancer is so common that it is likely all middle-aged people have cancer somewhere in the body. We know this from autopsy studies, and thyroid cancer is a particularly illuminating example. Very few people have heard of anyone dying from thyroid cancer. Yet, in a Finnish autopsy study of 101 people, who died from other diseases, thyroid cancer was detected in 36, and the researchers calculated that if they had cut the thyroid in thinner slices, they would have expected to detect cancer in most, if not all, of them.”
As you say, such a test is bound to lead to an epidemic of positives and subsequent “treatment'”
I totally would not take a cancer saliva test unless it was a diagnostic test and the reason was that I had symptoms that were bothersome and an ultrasound that showed “something”. There is a danger with ANY screening test for cancer because most of the treatments for cancer that exist right now are so severe. The cancer treatments make the patients more sick than the cancer itself, they weaken the immune system so that the person gets a worse cancer a few years later. Most of the time the person dies a few years anyway. So sometimes dying with cancer and not getting treatments should be an option. A saliva test would be a good option to confirm cancer to get good palliative care. Not how cancer screening tests are now used to prevent me from getting any medical care because my doctor cannot meet his screening quotas.
I know a woman who died of stage 4 cervical cancer at age 32. She said she had not had a pap test for five years (her child was 4). She was made to think somehow she would not have got cancer if she had pap tests yearly. So false. She did not seem so sick until she started the cancer treatments and died after a month or two. So I am convinced that she died from the cancer treatments and not from the cancer. I know she had a surgical cone biopsy and after that chemo and radiation.
From what I have read some biopsy procedures can actually spread the cancer cells through the body. So a saliva test to confirm cancer would be better than a biopsy. The radiation can be difficult to focus without destroying healthy tissues. The chemo and radiation also impair the immune system that is keeping those viral and other infections that cause cancers or complications. I also knew a few people who officially “died of cancer” when they really died of pneumonia due to their weaken state from cancer treatment.
https://www.informedhealth.org/the-breast-cancer-screening-program-in-germany.2276.en.html?part=frueherkennung-yh
Found this leaflet about breast screening in Germany.
I get the e-letters regarding the new cervical screening program, an update came through yesterday.
“Self-collection
· Self-collection will only be relevant to very select groups of women – women who haven’t screened before and are long overdue for their cervical screening test – and have particular personal circumstances or cultural reasons why they can’t be tested in the usual way.
· While self-collection has not been shown to be as effective as a clinician collecting a sample, it is much better than not being screened at all. Self-sampling would still take place in a doctor’s surgery under clinician supervision. It is not a ‘take home kit’.”
Heaven forbid they give women a choice and some control, they clearly intend to keep pushing the angle self-testing is less reliable therefore women should have a speculum exam. (and they’ll be “offered 10 tests when 5 would be enough)
There is no doubt a lot of women would prefer self-testing, it should be freely available but, as usual, the need for control over women wins the day. Hopefully, word will spread, women will see that self-testing is reliable and source their own kits or demand one from their GP. (I know some women would be happy to pay for it) I understand GPs can only hand over a free kit if the woman refuses the speculum exam for 6 years. (although I’m sure they’ll make an exception here and there) The requirement that the self-testing kit must be used in the doctor’s room is also unnecessary and again, about control.
It is all about controlling women’s bodies. This is the way its been through history and always will probably be. Were just the lucky ones who have grown strong. I won’t be ‘self sampling’ it could still lead to over diagnosis. I only do now what the ‘aunts did and just go when you are ill.
The article on Mams that Ada posted needs to be put in all women’s magazines as its written in a very sensible way.
Hi Moo. I know you in to natural cures. Have you come across Apricot kernals? App in some places where they eat them there is low incidence of cancer. Because of a compound cammled Leutrile. Some clinics in America use it as part of cancer treatment and have had some success. I read an article that they have been banned partly from the demands of Cancer groups???? What do you know. It is suspicious that the only way cancer is cured is by a treatment invented 60 years ago and no other way has ever been discovered invluding natural ones.
Alex. Why don’t you go backpacking round Europe and the Uk and see where you fancy.
Hi Linda
I won’t be using a self-sampling kit either.
The incredible arrogance of this program and the disrespectful way women are viewed by the medical profession and others means the attitude seems to be, “we’ll let you self-test, so what’s the problem now?”…they just don’t get that we’re individuals, we have legal rights and we can choose to say NO, end of story.
I don’t want pap testing, I don’t want HPV self-testing, I don’t want mammograms and I don’t have to explain myself to anyone, No means No.
I don’t worry and test for other rare cancers, why on earth would I choose to do that for this rare cancer? I’d rather spend the time doing something like another cooking course or some yoga, far better for my health and adds to my quality of life.
I don’t have breast screening either, sure breast cancer is more common, but IMO, the risks of the test outweigh the benefit so I’ll pass…
Living like my grandmothers and great aunts makes a lot of sense…
Apricot pit kernels are available in Asian grocery stores in Canada where I live. I actually have a package (there are two types and only one is the bitter type). The kernels contain an natural arsenic compound that stimulates the immune system. Eating too many kernels at a time would result in arsenic poisoning. So people should be careful and check how many kernels they need to eat per day.
I think many older people get “cancer, which is actually is or caused by infections or infestations of parasites. As we have been told the HPV infection overtime is supposedly causing the body cells to mutate into cancer cells. Most people have had infections (viral, bacterial fungal) but the immune system fights them off. I think when some prescription drugs are given then too much taxes the liver (and other types of cellular systems) as the drugs are broken down and this makes the effects of the infections/infestations worse.
Even taking stomach acid reducers for prolonged times (weeks or months) can make people susceptible to parasites and infections. Strong stomach acids break down pathogens so they are less likely to infect or become a problem. Some organ duct blockage can be due to parasites. This is why we often drink some apple cider vinegar in water daily. It also gives us the “good” bacteria.
I used to think that a self swab would be a good alternative for me instead of a speculum exam but I changed my mind. For me now I will only to go to see a doctor for injury or severe illness I cannot treat myself. I am happy to report that I have refused the flu vaccine and no longer get the almost twice yearly bronchitis/pneumonia that required cortsteroid inhalers and antibiotics. Now I used natural herbal remedies when I start a cold and use a nebulizer with salt water and essential oils when I have trouble breathing. No more meds that cause me stomach pain, diarhea, constipation for months after. The inhalers cause tooth damage and bone damage. Salt water is not harmful at all.
Hello, all. Just was thinking about moving (as I frequently do) & was wondering about how things are in Europe. I go on different sites about the subject, but they just give overviews- not real run-downs. Basically, I’m wondering about my prospects & if any Europeans are on here, I’d appreciate your info. I figure this is kind of a family-planning thing, so maybe it’s kind of site-related.
I know Jola said that things were changing in Poland & that the Czech Republic was mandating vaccines (although a lot of that wouldn’t apply to someone that just showed up & doesn’t even have citizenship yet). I still bounce between the Czech Republic & Portugal as ideas (more toward the Czech Republic, given the influx of “refugees” through Southern Europe). Religiously, I think I’m more similar to Russian Orthodox than Catholic- but I don’t figure this will be a huge issue.
It seems the UK is plenty dictatorial & Germany’s even worse (surprise, surprise). I wouldn’t be looking to live in either right now, of course. France is more or less in the same boat. Switzerland seems like it’s similar.
I was looking to get into Europe with Italian citizenship through heritage, but my cousin & I have hit a couple of snags finding the right paperwork (although I get the feeling that they told her a list of shit you don’t necessarily need- Ancestry.com was something I was told was good enough as proof).
I have Ukrainian & Irish heritage, but that’s from my “father” & I’d have to probably travel cross-country to get him to theoretically sign anything. I have some English heritage from that side, too- but, as I understand, they try to take your blood & put it on record (can turn into more than a couple of problems- especially if you have a low tolerance for bullshit).
Moo that’s interesting, I use saline spray now in summer for hayfever instead of steroid spray. It seems more of us are waking up to natural remedies
For seasonal allergies, get some raw local honey (not pasteurized) and take a spoonful everyday. Some people also take bee pollen.
For very young children or those who are ill unpasteurized honey is not good due to risk of botulism.
I know cc is fairly rare but why is it every time I read a new’s paper’s there’s a story about c women with cervical cancer. I can see why women are scared of there own bodies all they talk about is breast and cervical cancer I would like to know were they find all these women who have this fairly rare cancer.Before I found this site I thought cc was very common like a lot of women do.
Hayley may it’s just done to scare us! It’s debatable whether they had full blown cancer or just abnormal cells that might have cleared on their. Own…
Thanks moo! I’ll try the honey. I’m outdoor a lot for work and it can get miserable!
It’s part of the law of large numbers. If someone lives say in a city of 2 million people, half of whom are women with a 0.001% of getting CC, there will be 10 women “right here in your city” who have this cancer. Go to the national or international scene, that still gets a large sheer-number of women with CC. Granted, in that big of a pool, you’ll find dozens of people who have any other given rare disease.
Some of those “cancer survivors” never did have cancer. They are just victims of the system that subjected them to over-treatment – at the end of which they were found to be “cancer free”. Many of them believe they are “lucky” to have had it treated “so early”. No, they were subjected to treatments which they didn’t need at all.
Honestly, it’s concerning that even virgins feel they need pap tests, goes to show the information does not inform, but then women from 21 are still getting pap tests in the States, all women from 21 whether they’ve ever been sexually active or not.
21 is too young anyway, these women should be left alone and offered HPV testing at age 30 (and I mean offered, not ordered)
I can tell you how to make a pap test easier for a virgin, don’t have pap testing!
Brainwashing…
Reading through articles on pap testing one thing is clear, so many women feel the need to urge reluctant women into testing, to make light of their concerns and to congratulate compliant women.
Yet if you look at sites on other types of screening, you just don’t see this sort of thinking, bowel screening, up to you, ho hum, prostate screening, up to you, probably a bad idea, breast screening, a good idea but sort-of up to you, there are more informed comments these days BUT then cervical screening, A MUST, crazy if you don’t test, well done to compliant women!
Brainwashing, censorship, no respect for consent/informed consent – it’s a dangerous mix but very effective if you can get away with it.
I also think some women feel better knowing others also go through this testing, sometimes it’s an admission the testing is an ordeal requiring a coping strategy…and so it triggers an extreme response, “you’re crazy not to test”…”well done for doing the right thing”…and so on.
I think the sort of thinking that accompanies cervical screening is crazy. If you were going to be militant with any sort of screening to do with a disease that mostly affect women, you could go for lung cancer, liver cancer, breast cancer, heart disease, diabetes and depression.
WHY cervical cancer? And how does it beat the other illnesses in terms of prevalence and priority exactly? It is bizarre.
After reading some of your posts after having talked to women who were previously militant about cervical screening, I do think these women resent the intrusiveness of this test but get through it by telling themselves, “I have to do it”. They’re also told other women “have” to do it as well so those that don’t are clearly dangerously misinformed, unintelligent and ignorant so they feel some sense of “superiority” complex in lecturing the rest of us.
I also think they’re angry with us because they feel we have “gotten away” without testing while they have had to submit so when they finally hear we have made informed decisions, they may feel some envy and resentment on some level.
Makes it more understandable but still does not lessen my fury or frustration when I see them attempt to bully other women online.
Anyone read The Mail on Sunday “You” magazine. Interesting story of a celebrity being saved in their today. Also then The headline inside the main paper itself reads “My cancer nightmare” on page 13, really she never had cancer really angered me today and brought back awful memories. So pleased in educating myself these days. Scaremongering at its best Dee UK
Hi guys,
I’ve been referred to a specialist doctor to try and diagnose some of the weird physical symptoms (and odd blood test results) that I’ve been having for months, and when I made the appointment, the secretary rolled off a list of things that this new doctor will ‘require’ to try and diagnose what is wrong with me. One of the items was, “He does a breast exam, but no other gynae procedures at the first appointment”.
As she was telling me this, I just said, “Uh huh, ok”, and I did not really think about it until the next day when I thought, ‘he’s doing a what?!?!’.
After fuming for a day or two about the ‘exam’ (I hate that word exam, it’s like something you ‘pass’ or ‘fail’ and cannot study for) I have now decided that it will NOT be happening, I tried to call the doctor back, only to find out that he’s away and won’t be back until two weeks time.
I will call again when they open up again, and I will be asking them to make a note on my appointment that I will be absolutely refusing the breast exam. Honestly, thinking of a strange man I have just met feeling my breasts makes me shudder. I’m thinking of telling them I don’t ever do pap smears either, although I know he might just refuse to see me, which will be disappointing as my lovely and helpful GP has worked hard to work out what my body is doing, and then researching to find another doctor that might be able to give us a hand. I really want to get back to doing all the physical things I used to do, before I became oddly sick about 10 to 12 months ago. Doing physical things now makes me nauseous, I get a headache, strong aches and pains, dizzyness, chest pain and I’m exhausted before I’ve started… it makes me feel old and useless.
As a scientist, and after being around all of you here on the net for over a decade (since the first Blog Critics days), I know full well that breast exams have been found and proven to be useless as a diagnostic tool. I’ll be stating this to the secretary!
The breast palpatation might actually be warranted as I do have very moderately raised lymph nodes enlarged around my collarbone (supraclavicular) and chest area. I have a large golfball sized lump on either side of my neck, which is very disturbing to look at! People are noticing the odd lumps and asking me what I have done to myself, when I haven’t done anything, LOL!
This dr is also a cardiologist, so he will be doing an ECG (or EKG), which means he will be seeing my chest regardless of what I do. I really don’t believe there is anything wrong with my heart though.
One thing I wanted to say is, I have always been vocal and upfront with other people about refusing pap smears and other exams, but when the secretary said ‘breast exam’, my reaction was automatic to say, ‘Ok’. I’m shocked at myself for doing that. It shows the expected reaction of being a good patient and doing as I’m told when I’m NOT like that at all!!!
I was thinking of telling the secretary that I would allow a female dr to do the exam, but honestly, I DO NOT believe the exam is at all necessary, and really, I have gone over them myself quite thoroughly looking for anything un-usual, or any other lumps like the ones in my neck, and I haven’t found anything.
I’ll post what happens when I call. 🙂
Ozphoenix, I doubt he’ll do the ECG himself, he’ll send you off for the ECG and then he’ll get the print-outs/report. I’ve had 2 or 3 and that’s been the procedure each time, my mother sees a cardiologist regularly so does my younger sister and that’s the case with them too.
I’ve found it interesting that some nurses ask you to remove your bra so you’re exposed while they’re putting everything in place. I’ve had the same female nurse twice and she handled it that way, it was probably easier for her. I felt comfortable with her so didn’t mind…(I go to a centre that only has female nurses/technicians in attendance)
My mother has had a lot of ECGs over the years and it’s interesting, a male nurse fitted her last year and I couldn’t believe how careful he was not to expose her. I watched from afar as he worked under her nightie, at no time was she exposed and he didn’t touch her, except to secure the leads. It looked like he’d perfected the routine over the years.
I’ve heard women say they were exposed, others have had my mother’s experience, so it seems to come down to the nurse/technician.
So often it’s how these things are carried out, whether the doctor/nurse cares enough, respects your privacy and dignity. I feel exposure is often unnecessary and if we question it, they can often find another way.
A young woman posted on Dr Sherman’s site (about 3 years ago) that a male nurse pulled down her gown to remove leads without warning, she was exposed while he took his time, she’d had a few ECGs and knew his approach was completely unnecessary. Was he being lazy or was he after an eyeful?
She felt it was the latter….and made a complaint to the hospital.
I spoke to a woman who had a TVU recently, she asked if she could insert the probe herself, the technician agreed, she felt a lot better about the procedure.
It doesn’t come down to being busy either, the male nurse who cared for my mother last year was frantically busy but always polite and professional. It’s attitude more than anything…
Ozphoenix, yes, a breast exam IMO, would only be called for if you had a breast issue, a lump or discharge from the nipple etc. I’d be questioning that too…
Sometimes they think they’re being thorough, they’re not…excess and non-evidence exams and tests are unhelpful and expose us to risk.
Thankfully, the casual reach and TUBES don’t happen as much these days, once it was tacked onto every consult for the Pill and general check-ups. I know women who had a lot, when they had a cold, headache etc.
These doctors often come undone when the entire family sees them, women talk, and it may come to light that the young women (or some of them) get breast exams and pressure to have pap tests, the older ones – these things are never mentioned or not as much and with nowhere near the same pressure.
It’s part of the casual attitude taken when it comes to the female body. The excuse is so often, “women are used to these exams, they must have pap tests and they have babies”…
I think this attitude has held up a non-invasive alternative to the Pill (and better options) and kept the pelvic and breast exam in place for far too long. Attitudes need to change and once again, that starts with us questioning, complaining, declining etc.
Ozphoenix, hope you get some answers…
I had an ECG 2 years ago in the UK and was told by the technician there was no need to remove my bra at all. They can easily stick the things on around it.
With the TVU I was given a sheet to tie around my waist, and could keep this there to cover the tops of my legs during the procedure. There is absolutely no need for all this stripping off.
It makes me want to slap people who say women who have had children can’t care about being exposed anymore. People keep saying this, and it really grates with me. Giving birth need not be undignified, and is no reason to assume that mothers are henceforth happy to have their vaginas on open access for the NHS. If anything, people can get more modest as they get older, and respect should be shown at all times.
Thanks, Ada, I’ll be questioning the need to remove my bra if I have another ECG in the future. I was told it’s difficult to place the leads around a bra, seems it was just easier for her. This is the sort of thing where it’s easy to take advantage, you could ask a woman to remove her bra and it would be difficult for her to claim it was for perverse reasons.
Same with the ultrasound, it’s interesting that some male technicians have trouble seeing the fetus with an abdominal ultrasound and suggest a TVU. Sometimes when the technician is challenged, he can suddenly see the fetus with no issue or if the woman asks for a female technician, she has no trouble with the abdominal ultrasound.
There are lots of ways we can be taken advantage of or exposed unnecessarily…sometimes it’s laziness, sometimes the technician would prefer you remove your bra or accept the TVU for his viewing pleasure! At my age, it’s the former, but there is no doubt, I would prefer not to remove my bra if it’s unnecessary.
It’s only by talking to other women we can judge our experiences, was/it that really necessary? Ada, were you permitted to insert the probe when you had the TVU?
I had the ECG before I had to have my hysterectomy in 2014. It was a man doing it and he said at the outset there was no need to remove my bra. He seemed to have no trouble placing the stickers in the right places with my bra on. Most bras these days have plastic clips and hooks so I don’t see how these can affect the readings. I don’t go for underwired bras. I dress for comfort these days!
I didn’t insert the TVU probe myself, as it hadn’t occured to me to do so, but the lady I saw for this was one of the most respectful, caring and kind medical people I have ever met. She was so kind and full of empathy to me when I first went into the room, I felt I was in safe hands from the start. There are some wonderfully kind people like this in the NHS, why can’t more of them be like this! I was wearing trousers and she gave me a sheet to tie around my waist at all times. If I’d been wearing a skirt or dress, I could have kept this on throughout and kept my thighs well covered if I’d wanted to. I can’t understand this American/German getting naked and splayed in a chair at all. I did not find it painful as I had done with smears as the probe was smaller and doesn’t open out like a speculum, so I was OK with it. Maybe the lady was so kind to me because she could tell something was wrong – a postmenopausal lady should not have an endometrial thickness of more than 5mm, but mine measured 16mm! My endometrium clearly stuck in overdrive! I don’t know how far the ultrasound penetrates, but it picked up a pelvic kidney on my left side next to my bladder. 2 previous abdominal ultrasounds with 2 pregnancies had failed to pick this up, so this was quite a revelation. I then had to take myself off to the coffeeshop for a latte and return for an abdominal ultrasound to confirm that it was indeed my left kidney stuck down there and busily filling up with coffee.
Ada
It makes a huge difference when we know the invasive exam/test is necessary, (symptomatic or we choose to have a pap test etc.) we’re treated respectfully & our privacy and dignity is considered. I spoke to someone recently who was handed a pair of colonoscopy shorts before that procedure, she felt so much better, more comfortable, they might be considered small things or even unnecessary, but they make a big difference to the patient experience.
(for many of us anyway)
Conversely, a woman online told me a male gynaecologist gave her a face washer to place over her genitals – she was having a pelvic exam for symptoms.
She was concerned others may have used the washer, thought it was unsuitable/made her feel even more uncomfortable but also wasn’t happy to lie there naked from the waist down…a sheet or robe would have made her feel more comfortable.
She told the doctor that was her preference, he huffed and puffed and went looking for a sheet, she decided to leave, not caring for his attitude. She’s now made an appt to see another doctor who offers a clean sheet (paper-based) to all patients.
A lot of women carry trauma as a result of pap test coercion or thoughtless care that left them exposed, often these women have had other invasive exams and tests but it’s the former they vividly remember, that still bother them many years later.
We could do so much better, just taking 95% of women aged 30 to 60 out of pap testing and all those under 30 would be a massive improvement. (and of course, colposcopy, biopsy and treatment rates would plummet as well)
These exams should not be a big feature of our lives, I’ve never had a pelvic exam, too often these things happen unnecessarily or as a result of medical interference. (early pap testing or excessive pap testing that leads to colposcopy/biopsy, routine well-woman exams that can lead to over-investigation, even excess surgery etc.)
Hello Ozphoenix:
If this is your first visit to the site, then Welcome!
I hope I caught you before you go off to the lab for your ECG. I was going to suggest that You Wear a Pull On Sports Bra – preferably one with thin straps. They can put the electrodes right under your straps. Pull-on sports bras generally don’t have any metal wiring in them. The reason a bra is generally asked to be removed is because of the metal wiring in them. The metal wiring affects the readings and would throw the machine off. It’s much the same reasoning that pilots use for requiring everyone turn off all electronic devices on a flight as they set off the airplane’s instruments. Even if you don’t wear an underwire bra, the little metal hooks in the back of a regular bra can set off the electronic signals. If you wear a pull-on sports bra, they really have no reason to ask you to take it off. I had an ECG done years ago when I had chest pains. Thank the Lord it wasn’t what I thought it was – a heart attack. I had a female prep me – she allowed me to put my gown on from the front so I would have some coverage, but how I wished I would have thought of wearing a sports bra – I didn’t know. Like clockwork, she didn’t come back, but a young male tech came back to check on the electrodes my chest. He did the same thing as to the woman in Elizabeth’s post – pulled away my gown and revealed my chest. I was shocked – but too worried; too much in pain, and too cross-eyed tired from being in there for hours to care – which is what they count on in the hospitals to get women in states of undress – especially childbirth. He kept his head down and was quick, but if I had it to do again, I would wear a sports bra. Please consider for your ECG.
Please do require that a female doctor do your breast exam. But honestly, they can’t diagnose anything – they still have to send you for a scan or X-ray. I suggest you try to request that and forego the breast exam.
Hope everything turns out for the best. Be Blessed.
Neck swelling, tiredness, etc. – is that thyroid illness.? I suggest you keep copies of all your tests and look up all these results in the internet.
I have read that some women have problems with thyroid due to lack of iodine in their diet. When they get sick the doctor will always tell them to avoid iodine foods whether or not the problem is due to lack or iodine or thyroid malfunctioning. The thyroid function can affect menstruation and the heart. So look it up.
No gyn procedgers at first. “. That should send me red flags once he gets you cimming in he’s likely to push paps on you esp if your symptoms chave nothing to do with that area. I think he’s munching the insurance or being over the top. I don’t tolerate anyone telling me what will be done or what I need. I told off a dentist who keep pushing for more cleanings more oral cancer screening. I know my body and find it annoying I was there for a broken tooth not for them to take the opportunity to push unrelated exams on my mouth. Even tho yes they are not intimate It bothers me.
Quote from a local radio station news page …
“Figures show the number attending clinics (for smear tests) is at an all time low, mainly because they’re embarrassed and ignore letters.”
A screening co-ordinator states:-
“For anybody who’s ever had a baby, the pain of having a cervical screening test in comparison to that lasts for about five minutes.
“You might get a little bit of discomfort, which is no more than period pains, which lasts for the rest of the day.”
Someone will be getting a ticking off for not sticking to the party line of ” Smear tests are quick and painless”.
They’ve also contradicted themselves by saying the pain will only last five minutes then going on to say it may last the whole day!
I hate these campaigns which patronise women and make them sound like little girls who need reassurance, and as for comparing smears to childbirth and menstruation, don’t insult my intelligence! Menstruation is an involuntary natural process and pregnancy is another natural occurrence which most women choose to do. Smears are neither natural nor entirely voluntary!
So what are they arguing? That someone is fine with this situation because of the potentially overlapping features with other situations? A handshake & a throat punch have being contact in common- doesn’t mean someone is okay with being punched in the throat, though.
These people don’t mention any risks at all, I notice. Through antagonism, incompetence, or simply inherent danger of the procedure (whether mentioned or unmentioned) there is serious risk & potential miscarriages as a result. I guess they’re not big fans of mention iatrogenic debt from subsequent tests/treatments/follow-ups, possibly from the false indications or medical malpractice.
Oh- and using the term “embarrassment” instead of “against the grain” or “sexually antagonistic” or “iatrogenically assualtive.” I guess “sexual dissonance” is not a commonly used term, so they exploit that by using less apt terms. Of course, other people’s discretion doesn’t weight too heavily on the minds of medical personnel & the objections of these people hold little to now sway with them. After all, they shouldn’t have to worry about what other people permit or refuse to have done to their own body- they went to more school than they did, potentially.
Hi All. The ‘big’ hospital near to were I live – you all know my neck of the woods right? (the one famous for molesting women when they’re sedated) has just killed a nine year 9yr old boy through neglect, incompetance and their couldn’t give a damn about saving anyones life attitude. You may
have heard about it on the news. Instead of trying harder and putting more energy into saving lives which they have given up doing as a bad job they have decided to go into the property building business.
Yes. The NHS has now become an estate agent. They plan on building ‘healthy’ estates for people to live on. They will incorporate ‘healthy walkways’ or what the Romans called – ‘paths’ for people to walk to the local shops. Similar in fact to the housing estate I live in. I would like to lose about 2 stone and am thinking of moving to one of these new houses. Its a pity Thomas didn’t already live on one as i’m sure he would still be alive to day.
Has any of my uk friends heard of this ?
Yes Linda heard last night. Of course no take away shops etc on these estates it’s healthy living all the way??
The Olympic athlete Sarah Tait passed away from cervical cancer yesterday, she was 33 with 2 young children. I haven’t heard much about Sarah and assumed she had breast cancer. I did some reading and found Sarah had regular pap tests and the HPV vaccine but was diagnosed with a rare form of cc 2 or 3 years ago, she mentions this type of cervical cancer is not picked up by pap testing and is not covered by the vaccine.
Papscreen often use unscreened women with cc to promote screening, (and it’s a great scare campaign) they even use false negative cases if they eventually produce an abnormal pap test, but I suppose there is nothing in Sarah Tait’s story for them. Best to ignore it, it doesn’t fit the screening “story”. Young women might ask some hard questions or lose trust in pap testing.
We tell young women that pap testing is a must and is your best protection from cc, that’s not a statement backed by the evidence….this sort of case just gets in the way.
I’ve always believed women are entitled to an honest presentation of the evidence, it’s plain dangerous to tell young women pap testing offers them protection, it doesn’t…
Ah yes. The even rarer form of CC that absolutely CANNOT be found with a pap test, nor with a pelvic exam until it’s quite advanced – and has metastized to other organs. A pap test won’t pick it up even then, although a pelvic exam MIGHT. It’s a moot point by the time they can see it, as by then the person is terminal.
This one most often affects young women, who are usually HPV-free. This one is not related to HPV.
It doesn’t fit the standard line, so they’d best ignore it, or lie and claim it was “because she was unscreened”, whether she was or not. If she was screened, it takes even longer for her to seek medical care, and for the doctors to take her complaints seriously, since, after all, they believe that if she’s screened it “can’t be” CC.
Beth, it’s interesting, adenocarcinoma is often the culprit when a young woman gets cc, pap tests usually miss this type of cc, but it’s linked to HPV.
The neuroendocrine cancers – I did a bit of reading last year and discovered some think this very rare cervical cancer is also linked to hrHPV, others disagree….
Tellingly, the doctors who argued this type of cc is NOT linked to HPV said this is why HPV- women should still have pap testing, talk about protect the pap test at any cost! He’s missed the bit about the pap test usually misses this type of cc.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1845923
” human papillomaviruses (HPV) types 16 and 18 are strongly associated with the development of cervical squamous carcinoma”
“These findings broaden the spectrum of HPV-associated cervical neoplasia and strongly suggest that HPV 18 is a viral type specifically associated with cervical small-cell neuroendocrine carcinomas.”
Also, there are some more references here:
http://www.uptodate.com/contents/small-cell-neuroendocrine-carcinoma-of-the-cervix
(references 11 to 15)
OBGYNs here in the US must be hurting for business because it seems many of them are turning to non-essential cosmetic procedures to pad their bank accounts. A Dr. with whom I’ve had a negative experience and no longer go to has started advertising in local magazines, specifically promoting her practice’s new…ahem…”rejuvenation” procedure for tightening up, beautifying, etc. one’s lady bits. Purely cosmetic and not at all health-related. And if that’s not disgusting enough, I apparently am still on their e-mail list and got an e-mail the other day promoting their practice’s addition of the SculpSure fat-freezing cosmetic procedure. I don’t know why, but it absolutely infuriates me that they are offering these procedures and promoting them. It’s all about the money, I suppose. 😦
http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/1239
I discovered this webpage recently and thought it might be of interest to those of you doing a book on the history of screening. It’s a review of 3 books which are critical of women’s screening programmes. I’ve got the Ilana Löwy book quite cheaply off Amazon. Although I think Löwy, as a doctor, comes down on the side of screening, she still provides a lot of balanced information on the limitations of the test. The Bryder book is one I’d love to get hold of, but haven’t quite managed it yet.
Thank you Ada for your support. I will deff look at these as well. The others you posted were great. X
I don’t think I’ll have time to contribute to another book right now, but the history of cervical screening is an ongoing interest of mine that I continue to research in my free time. Note that the review said that it was a profitable American test, which was heavily promoted by America to other countries. My suspicions all along have been that American funding was behind the setting up of our own programme, and the profitability of this “healthcare” procedure was readily welcomed by those hoping to introduce a profitable, privatising business into the NHS. That’s my feelings anyway.
Hi Ada. Yes deff a nod to the american healthcare will be included. Don’t worry about sitting this one out, unlike some other things I can think of its not compulsory.
Thanks for the links
X
I thanks Ada I’ll look into this as well x
Linda – Back in my uni days, I prepared a 20K word dissertation on enforced medical procedures (more specifically, enforced caesareans). And in my dissertation, I basically compared the policing of women’s pregnancies in the US to the same sort of policing in Nazi Germany. It is controversial and the essay may need to be tweaked (it was written in 2007, and by all accounts, things seem to have moved on in the States now), but I am more than happy to share it with you. I believe it can be applied to the subject of smears, since my dissertation focused on the policing of womens bodies. I will need to scour my electronic files for it but I am sure I have it on my system somewhere. I recall submitting it in a rush so hope I’ve got the list of references to go with it.
Hi AQ. That’s great. I intend uploading my first of four during the week. The first is about the role of practice nurses in all if this. I’m having trouble with my comp so will be extending the deadline a few weeks anyway. Please upload anything you want. This is a communal book so its up to ypu what you write tho i would like the overall theme to be about ‘forced’ screening.
http://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2014/may/national-cervical-screening-program/
This sort of “research” infuriates me, no mention of informed consent or choice, just how do we get more women to COMPLY…(comply, enforce, I usually see these words in tax legislation or in the Crimes Act, so it’s tax legislation, criminal law AND women’s cancer screening)
” in 2010–2011 more than 2.7 million women did not comply with the recommended 2-yearly screening interval.”
Comply…how can you possibly use language like that with an elective screening test?
This is the attitude we have to change, it’s clear many in medicine still view women’s cancer screening as a law. I can’t recall seeing this sort of language in articles on bowel cancer screening.
Disappointing that most of the authors are female…denying self-determination, refusing to see women as individuals, ignoring our right to informed consent and even consent itself.
Opportunistic screening is IMO, unethical, we know it can lead to psych issues and it’s unfair, it gives the woman no opportunity to consider whether she wants to test or not, it’s designed to ambush the woman and pressure her to into the test. I doubt many women get a run down of risks and actual benefits either. It means some women will avoid doctors for real health issues.
We might not care who takes our blood pressure, but many women want a female doctor or nurse or a particular person to do the pap test (if they choose to have them)
I know some women feel they must submit and accept a male doctor when they’d prefer a female etc.
I plan to write to the authors…in 2014 they still view screening as compulsory for women, the target is all that matters and it’s just a Q of enforcing the recommendations.
No mention either that 2 yearly testing is serious OVER-screening, hardly surprising more choose not to follow the recommendations, it’s BAD medical advice that greatly increases the risk of a false positive and overtreatment for zero additional benefit to women.
We still have a long way to go when this sort of language is still viewed as appropriate…and by female doctors!
Exactly, Eliz, this is just the sort of language that needs stamping out. It makes my blood boil that people use these terms: “ignoring letters, dodging smears, not compliant, avoiding smear tests”. These terms are used over and over again, and as you say they are often used by women against women. Had they abided by the law and provided a reply slip for women to decline their invitations, women would not have to “avoid or dodge” this illegal blackmail campaign of threats and bullying being run by the NHS. For all the psychological profiling they undertake in expensive research projects to try and find what is behind women NOT wanting smear tests, I wonder what research has been undertaken into the minds of those who feel it is their right to “round women up” and force them into medical procedures, which have highly questionable outcomes.
I find the activity of criminalising women who decline testing to be a very worrying business, and this seems to be happening more and more in the NHS. An example is that Demos report written in 2014, which tried to portray those who decline smears as being a financial burden on the state. These people frequently use the argument, that the costs of the disease, far outweigh the costs of the test, and are promoting the argument that NOT screening is on a par with the costs crime and criminals place on the state. Not only does this create a climate of “cancer blaming and shaming” (as if those with a cancer diagnosis haven’t got enough to deal with), but it also glosses over the fact that cervical cancer is very rare, and screening for it across whole populations in the developed world, misses those most as risk, and hugely wastes public money on widespread tests for the worried well. A lot of illness and poor health is a result of poverty and deprivation, and I find this kind of “research” which criminalises those who get cancer to be utterly evil.
We see this attitude with lots of new health “trends” within the NHS. The culture of blaming and almost criminalising tends to be quite popular in the NHS. The new buzz words are obesity and diabetes. Until very recently, there was a big obsession with policing pregnancies but with declining resources, women are checked much less frequently than they used to be, and I read that intimate examinations should only be recommended when problems are suspected. Of course, there is the obsession with forcing women to undergo natural births at all and any costs, as well as coerced breast-feeding (whether mum and baby want to, or not).
I wasn’t aware of the Demos report and I have often wondered how far the NHS would go to enforce “compliance” with the screening and it infuriated me. Around 2006-09 (with the advent of the Jade Goody case, mercilessly exploited as the “poster girl” for screening), I feel that the media campaigns were very much in over-drive and the impression I gleaned was that pressure to screen would increase. It is only in the last few years, I have deciphered a noticeable shift, with some senior members of the medical community and governmental screening committees speaking out, forcing the loud mouths to shut up and acknowledge that this programme was never what it was cracked up to be. The 2014 report sounds like clutching at straws and is reminiscent of what the hard core Republican section in the US would advocate.
However, they cannot seriously think those who don’t screen are a financial burden to the NHS given the high number of referrals to colopscopy and the likelihood that only 12 – 30% of them will develop cervical cancer and that many women today are not scared to call them out on ths bs!
AQ
I think the pull-back you’re seeing in the UK is the result of more informed voices, of women and professionals. It’s no longer “safe” to abuse women, it might come back and bite them so they have to “appear” to respect informed consent. It’s still only the most determined who manage to opt out of the program, so they know they won’t lose many, especially with GPs still doing their dirty work.
We’re not seeing much here, we have VERY few voices speaking out about our shocking over-screening program, no real advocates at all. We’re moving to HPV testing next year, but again, no one is saying much about screening women from 25 and doing 10 or 11 tests. (HPV self-testing will be locked away for 6 years, they probably hope to pressure most women into the invasive test in that time) Of course, informed and determined women might buy a self-test device online or order one through their GP.
You only have to do BASIC research to see that HPV testing is NOT recommended before age 30, but no one is saying anything about our new program starting at 25.
I believe we’re throwing these women under the screening bus (again!) for a couple of reasons:
a) vested interests want the money from testing and “treating” these women;
b) Women might smell a rat if we move from a start age of 18 (some women are even younger) up to 30, that’s a big shift. It wouldn’t take much then for women to discover they’ve been fed bad medical advice for a long time, that early screening and over-screening is of no benefit to women and it’s why so many of our women are missing some of their cervix. (MOST women my age: 58…if they followed our program)
The 10 or 11 tests, when 5 is enough, is again about excess and boosting profits for vested interests.
I believe our new program came about after years of vested interests jockeying for position, no one wanting to give up their share of the cash cow. The new program is the best result that could actually get over the line – when you’ve been lying to women for decades and knowingly risking their health, you don’t want a disgruntled group heading for the media. So from a dishonest base, with vested interests to satisfy…our new program is the result.
Hi Linda! I’ll also be uploading mine separately but in order if you see what I mean. I’m also touching on biblical reference to women being submissive,and religious teaching about purification after menstruation, the fact until recently the marriage vows said we’d obey our husbands. I’m waiting on a book about henrietta lacks.
Ada… In your series of 3 essays on the history of screening you mentioned the additional payment given to doctors in deprived inner city areas of 8.18 per cervix, do you have a link to the article? I’d be interested to read more. Pure capitalism!
I’m flat out in bed atm, I know I need antibiotics for my sinus, but I am trying to go it alone. If I manage to get appointment, I’ll be told I need a smear far more than antibiotics and then why didn’t I attend my mammogram??! So I called in sick at work. I don’t feel well enough to wait ages at the walk in centre!
Sorry for the moan!
Hi Kat. I’m sorry you not so good at the mo. If u do go the docs i hope u will b ok.
I’m behind with mine as i’ve only done one of four so far. I will extend the date but as its only us thats fine. It sounds like you’ve put s lot of effort into it. I’m sure its great.
I have used a lot of references and so far i’m very happy.
The book will have sections from each of the writers that submit. Section 1,2,3, etc. And they will have there own bibb jyst like ‘proper’ medical textbooks.
One of the women i interveiwed doesn’t want her piece in it. It was s big piece so i was dissapointed. Its been a pain trying to find people with screening stories that want to be quoted. Overall tho i’m pleased with this first bit.
Wow talk about railroading women in to screening it’s appalling! A couple of things stand out. I’m guessing Australia, as a larger country than UK, has a higher population as well and therefore more women? The figures quoted for cases diagnosed and deaths are really low,if I understand correctly lower than the UK. So cervical cancer certainly isn’t rampant (0k we know that already)!
So it’s fine to hassle a woman to screen if she’s there for a throat infection, and the thing that really got me was the statement menopausal and post menopausal women don’t realise it’s still required to screen?? Really? I didn’t know that either (sarcasm kat!!)
Ada I get your point and what worries me is that in the UK our government is focused on health in the wrong way, nor so much the amount sick people cost the NHS but the way it’s obsessed with hounding people to find non existent work and stay in it without being sick, already we have the unemployed being told to lose weight or lose benefits, addicts being told to clean up or lose benefits. There’s talk of putting jobcentre officials in surgeries to harass the mentally ill and those on long term sick leave. How long before we are told we could lose time at work through cervical /breast cancer and laws being passed to make screening compulsory?? Or if you lose your job, being told no benefits til you have a smear test??
Here’s a small item I came across the other day from 2011, which appeared in a nursing magazine:
“Smear tests ‘humiliating and stressful.’.
Source: Practice Nurse, 12/9/2011; 41(20): 9-9. (1p)
Cervical smears can be humiliating and stressful say researchers who recorded women’s personal testimonies after undergoing the procedure.
The study reveals that women feel pain, stress and anxiety when having a smear test.
The 34 women interviewed by researchers from the University of Leicester said they were not always treated with the kindness and sensitivity that they would like.
Complaining that healthcare professionals can appear detached and distant, the women said they would prefer a much more personal approach.
One interviewee said: ‘It’s just so cold. You go in, you take your clothes off, she does that and it’s just so so degrading and embarrassing. It’s just horrible.’
The study, published in the journal, Family Practice, also reports that some women felt disappointed with the way the procedure was conducted, especially if the healthcare professional acted as though the test was a
routine procedure.
Nurse J., a practice nurse manager and nurse consultant in cervical screening for Somewhere PCTs, said: ‘I am quite surprised and rather upset by the statement as, even though this does not always happen, I would have thought most nurses are sensitive to undertaking cervical screening. I
wonder who has undertaken these screens, GPs — men — or practice nurses?’
Nope, it’s people like you, Nurse J., who think they have a right to misinform, and coerce instead of respecting a woman’s informed right to choose not to have the test.
https://www.gynaehealthuk.com/cervical-cancer-screening-services/gynaecheck
This device looks like the Delphi Screener and it’s interesting when I last heard Pixie McKenna (or one of her colleagues on Embarrassing Bodies) promoting a self-test kit
a couple of years ago they made the point the test was IN ADDITION to pap testing. (regardless of the result)
There was no mention of the fact HPV- women cannot benefit from pap testing, this was obviously to protect the program.
Pixie McKenna though in this presentation says HPV- women might like to use the self-test device again in 2 years time. (no mention of pap testing)
If you’re going to offer this product it should be made clear that it’s not recommended before age 30 and 2 yearly testing is excessive, here in Australia it will be 5 yearly from 25, excessive as well, the Dutch are only doing 5 tests in total.
Offering this product to young women means lots will test HPV+ so this might also be a ploy to get young women into the pap testing program. I know there’s concern that more and more women under 29 are not testing. I suspect some of these women understand pap testing is of no benefit to those under 30. (and does not benefit HPV- women aged 30 to 60)
Perhaps, as more real information filters through to women they’ll be forced to provide self-testing devices and proper medical advice, otherwise, more and more women will do their own thing. (knowing they’re being fed propaganda, not sound medical advice)
The GynaeCheck cervical screener was launched last September (in time for cervical cancer awareness month) in the UK. They ran special promotional offers off GPB99 for that month. It is always promoted as a product “for peace of mind” and I’ve seen many “staged” responses online from women saying how they “love the new test because it has given them so much peace of mind in addition to their smear tests, which they always attend without fail.”
Makes you gag doesn’t it?
They are part of a private company “Check4Cancer”, which also offers a load of other tests. It is difficult to know what is going to happen to our programme in the UK. They are playing very close to their chests, but it has been made clear that HPV as the primary test will be the future. What is also clear is that the current government would like to hive off parts of the NHS and privatise them, so it may be that some of these companies are jockeying to take on some of the NHS screening work. I do not know how successful Gynaecheck has been, and if they have sold many of the kits.
So much for overscreening…. IN ADDITION to the smear tests which those writing the promotion copy say they attend WITHOUT FAIL? This is kind of like attending weekly mammograms, checking your cholesterol 3 times per day, and checking your blood pressure every 10 minutes. It’s just… LUDICROUS, for such a rare disease.
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/pell-testimony-different-times-but-the-right-questions-werent-asked-20160304-gnasb9.html
Interesting article, I agree with Phil Cleary, the male sense of entitlement over the female body meant most perpetrators got away with criminal conduct in the 1970s & 1980s (and earlier) but it certainly was not confined to the Church. (and the abuse continues in medicine)
I’d say the medical profession also enjoyed the power they had over women, mostly male doctors, a serious power imbalance and widespread abuse, including misuse of prescriptive powers.
I’d argue women had to submit to an assault to get the Pill & that consent is often missing with pap testing, that the TUBE went on and on, some doctors still insist on a breast exam when the woman wants the Pill. (and some add a pelvic exam as well)
It’s been made clear routine breast and pelvic exams are not recommended at all, but nothing is done to stop doctors continuing to insist on them or misleading women.
They KNOW some doctors refuse to prescribe the Pill without a pap test, they know some hold repeats to force women back into the consult room.
We don’t see the same casual approach taken with the male body.
There is no doubt in my mind that the AMA and others are against the Pill coming off script for 2 reasons: loss of market share and profits and less control over women. It’s expressed in terms of health care but their actions make clear they couldn’t care less about our health.
For a long while the Church was untouchable, now it’s time we turned the focus on the medical profession and their shocking treatment of women.
Beth, it’s always amazed me the time spent on cervical cancer, the hype, the effort, cervical cancer MONTH, it’s mostly about profits, but it’s also about keeping women fooled and compliant.
They’ve led us to believe that cc is a real threat or would be without pap testing, they fudge statistics, scary screening “stories”…so the more-and-more approach also serves to further convince women that cc is a serious risk…better get off and get some screening!
I, however, better get off, I’m meeting a friend for lunch, a MUCH better idea, good for my health and well-being.
Hi guys, I’m just reporting what has happened about the specialist I was due to see, where I was refusing to submit to a breast exam.
I called them up today and spoke to the secretary, asking if a note could please be made on my appointment that I am refusing the breast exam for many reasons, top two being that breast exams have been conclusively and scientifically proven to be of little use for the reliable detection of tumours within the breast. Anything ‘found’ is referred for invasive biopsy and surgery, when the chance that it is actually anything at all is very remote. Surgery, pain, lots of money, anguish – and whoops, there’s nothing there after all! And actual tumours are often ‘missed’ as well! The other reason is that I do NOT want a strange man (doctor or not!) to palpate my breasts. The thought makes my shudder…
Well, the secretary called me back a few minutes ago and informed that the lovely doctor refuses to see me if I will not allow him to examine my breasts. Wonderful. So the doctor is ignoring reported evidence and advice that breast exams are of next to no benefit, and apparently also doesn’t believe that women are good enough to check their own breasts and come to any conclusions. The secretary said she refused to argue this with me. Yet another woman who thinks drs should be blindly obeyed and never questioned.
I’m glad I called! Very upsetting though to be denied care because I refuse to have my chest felt up. I’m furious, actually.
I had a strange episode of vomiting on sunday night. Was reading my book in bed, then started feeling abruptly nauseous. A few minutes later it was full on, I HAVE TO THROW UP! Ran to the toilet but uncontrollably vomited on the floor before I got there. Threw everything up for a few minutes, then I was right as rain… back to normal again. No diarrohea or pain or anything else. After reading in the newspaper today of another woman having an attack like this, and it turned out she was in the middle of having a heart attack, I’m starting to think it might be heart thing? I do have chest pain. Anyway…
Thinking seriously of giving up, and just living with the weird shit that’s happening to me. Forget doctors. Sick of the disbelief I get when I describe whats happening to me, and the general inability to find something concrete. I think I must have a bright sign saying ‘hypochondriac’ hanging over my head. Even the ultrasound tech I saw was telling me off and being quite rude for worrying about the large lumps on top of my collarbone that enlarge and shrink during the day (and cause headaches, aching shoulders and neck, and pressure that gives me ear pain on both sides, and dizziness). I’ve been told a few times it’s fat. Fat does not behave like that!!
I’ve started opening up about my own qualifications as a scientist when I speak to people and doctors, but really, it makes no difference. People come to quick conclusions about what they think is wrong (nothing, apparently) and ignore anything else. I feel alternately quite sick (to the extent of stopping whatever I’m doing and holding on until the symptoms pass, usually a few hours, more often a day or two), and then sometimes absolutely normal.
Thanks for letting me rant guys. Feeling damn awful about my situation now. Am glad I completely refused the breast exam though. That’s a plus! Women have the right to research and decline any procedure they do not feel comfortable with. This is something we as a group have upheld for years!
-Ozphoenix
Hi, Ozphoenix. I’m glad you stood up for yourself! As for your health issue — have you tried recording what you eat? It’s possible that you might have some kind of food allergy or intolerance — sometimes people develop them later in life, not necessarily from early childhood. You could try recording what you eat and also how you feel every day and then see if there’s any connection between the two. It’s just a suggestion. I hope you feel better! Also, I think that if even the doctors say that there’s nothing wrong with you, there probably isn’t — they rarely miss an opportunity to sell some kind of treatment, so you might as well relax and stop worrying about it too much, it could be just stress. I sometimes can get physical symptoms when I worry about something too much, but when the situation resolves I immediately get better. It happens to everyone, I think, at least on some level.
– Evie
Also, I think that if more and more women refuse to get breast exams the doctors will eventually have to stop withholding treatment because they will have no patients otherwise.
Hi Oz. I hope you’re feeling better. You did the right thing and i’m glad you stuck with ypur principles. Your doctor was unprofessional not seeing you. A real ‘healer’ would have found a way to work with you. I cant help feeling he is an abuser of women and offers this care to all women. For all you know he went into medicine with the sole purpose of doing this to women. We don’t know. Its best to be safe. You have the hassle now of finding a new doctor. Unfortunately many docs just want to feel up our private parts and its happening all over thd world. I would focus on natural remedies no matter whats wrong with you. Everything can be cured by things found in nature. The answer to your probs is on the internet somewhere. Or get hold of a book of ‘mims’ thats all docs refer to anyway and get medicine of the net from reputable sources. X
I recently overheard a lady saying, that in her early 60’s, she had finally had her last smear test, but that at every one of them she wanted to punch the nurse for carrying out the procedure. No wonder they don’t have these screening tests for men, for most men would have no hesitation in punching the nurse or doctor for inflicting this kind of torture onto them. The fact that men would punch back, must be a major factor in determining what kind of medical screening tests they can get away with inflicting on women and what they couldn’t apply to men. In all the research I’ve read about cervical screening, proponents always claim that the procedure is accceptable to the female population, as the WHO guidelines require this. Such a procedure could never be carried out against all men, as they are well aware from the low uptake in the bowel screening programme. There is one set of healthcare standards for men and a lower set of standards which they expect women to tolerate.
The argument that if women will endure the pain of childbirth they should easily deal with smear tests is a typical example of this kind of attitude. Men also have the misfortune to suffer more accident and injury during their working lives than women do, but you never see this being used to justify inflicting painful unnecessary medical tests on them.
Thinking about what happened yesterday (specialist refusing to see me because I refuse a breast exam) sadly echoes a lot of what has happened to a lot of the other women here. We are only seen as a pair of breasts and a cervix. No matter what your other symptoms are, no matter how serious your non-breast & non-cervix related problem is, no matter what reason you made the appointment for, no matter what your concerns are – nothing matters except your breasts and vagina…
I have had NO symptoms relating to my breasts.
I have had NO changes to my breasts (and from time to time I do give them the once over).
I have NO family history of breast cancer.
I did NOT make the appointment to discuss anything about my breasts.
I DO have symptoms and documented test results relating to other things which could potentially be very serious and delaying treatment could mean a much worse outcome, or reach a stage which is no longer realistically treatable.
I have NO problem with the specialist seeing my breasts and doing an EKG/ECG, but I will NOT have them felt squashed and kneaded trying to find something when I have NO symptoms, and I would find the breast exam very distressing.
It seems we have a long way to go before women are respected and listened to, and doctors ever begin to realise that women have a brain, heart, lungs, kidneys, pancreas, intestines, liver, gall bladder, spleen, bladder, lymph nodes, ears, eyes, and mouth – yes all the things men have!!! Amazing, yes?! (Have I missed anything??).
Hi Ozphoenix
I think you just missed a bullet, this man doesn’t sound respectful or professional, at the very least he should have discussed your concerns with you. I’d look for someone else, and it seems you don’t need to bare your breasts for an ECG either. (have been asking around and it seems it’s just easier for some operators if you remove your bra) If I need another one, I’ll ask them to work around my bra, if I don’t need to take off my bra, I won’t be…
So look around for someone else, try a woman, you might find the mandatory breast exam suddenly disappears. Some women had breast exams every time they wanted the Pill and some noticed the female doctors might still push or “require” pap testing, but had no interest in a breast exam.
I think some doctors still enjoy TUBES or the option if they find the patient attractive and others have bad habits, haven’t stayed current/changed with the evidence or the casual reach for the female body happens without them thinking about it.
Sometimes when you challenge a doctor, it forces them to really think about the exam or test, I know a few women (online and in real life) who challenged the routine breast and pelvic exam and suddenly found it wasn’t that important after all. Some also challenged the need for a pap test when all they wanted was a script for the Pill (or something else) and found the same thing. If you know these things are unnecessary, you’re in a better position, most of this is a try-on, opportunistic, exploitative…it’s only safe to carry on when the woman is compliant and in the dark.
So look for someone who’ll, at least, discuss the breast exam with you. It might be said you’re symptomatic, therefore, the breast exam is not routine, but I’d want to know how the exam relates to my symptoms. False positives are no fun, they cause worry & fear, excess biopsies etc.
I agree with you, if I don’t see a reason for the exam or test, the answer is NO
Just on that point, I’ve mentioned previously that quite a few years ago a GP tacked the CA125 blood test onto my pathology request form. (without my knowledge or consent) I was appalled when I discovered the addition and told her I didn’t want the test results and why (politely and firmly)…she thought she was being thorough when she could have set me up for unnecessary surgery. I doubt she’ll casually add the test in the future.
Once you get that “abnormal” finding, you can start going around in circles with re-testing or end up referred or ignore it and be left worried sick. I wasn’t happy with the test and would not have acted on “abnormal” results but, can I say it wouldn’t have worried me? Probably not.
I know women who walked away from abnormal results but every twinge was ovarian cancer, one re-tested and got a normal result, but still carried worry for years, was the first or second test right? Last time I spoke to her it was 8 years and she assumed the normal result was the right result.
Unless we know where a test might lead and accept that, we need to be careful testing in the first place. Some women produce “abnormal” pap tests on a regular basis and spend their entire lives worried sick, sitting in waiting rooms, having biopsy after biopsy etc.. (no wonder some of these women eventually opt for a hysterectomy to be rid of the worry and unpleasantness)
Interesting, I was speaking online to an American woman who falls into that category, the pap merry-go-round, she recently tested for HPV using a self-test kit and bingo, HPV-…she plans to end the cycle of misery that’s robbed her of so many years, not to mention the indignity, pain, worry etc.
How do people feel about cholesterol testing? I’m meeting more and more people who now refuse routine blood tests to check cholesterol levels. I did some research a few years ago, time to revisit the subject.
Just curious: what routine checks do you accept? (if any)
In my 40s, I started seeing my GP every 12, 18 or 24 months to get repeats for skin medication, my blood pressure is usually checked, iron levels (I don’t eat red meat) sugar levels (my father had diabetes) and sometimes Vitamin D (this test has been criticized, testing has gone through the roof over the last 5 years and costs Medicare a small fortune, they’re attempting to wind it back now)
I was taking Vit D supplements, like most people, but stopped last year when my levels returned to “normal” or what they refer to as normal.
RE Cholesterol testing: I’ve refused one. I was seeing the doctor to get a refill of my diabetes prescription. I had a blood pressure check and an A1c test to test the approximate average blood sugar level over ~the past 3 months. She wanted to do a cholesterol screening. It was somewhat high when diabetes was discovered, but that is pretty usual. My reasons are: “What will I do with those test results?” Well, I’ve looked at statins, and they do not offer any prevention from heart disease EXCEPT among men in their 50s who have survived their second heart attack. Other than that, it appears to be treating to the numbers… there’s something else going on there that we do not understand. They appear to give no benefit to people like me even at extremely high numbers, plus they have several side effects – some which are extremely unpleasant or dangerous. So, I won’t be taking statins. I’m eating my diabetic diet, which is fairly low in cholesterol, and that’s not going to change much.
Moreover, the fact that several years ago they reduced the reference ranges for LDL and total cholesterol levels by a vote. This was not backed up by any sort of research – it was pushed by the pharmaceutical companies, who had many new (and very lucrative) statin drugs coming on the market, and it would be more profitable if they could find 10s of millions of new people who “need” these drugs. Moreover, I have read research that total cholesterol levels of below 100 (the current top of where you are recommended a statin now) increases depression, as measured by number of completed suicides per thousand. So, then they can sell a statin AND an antidepressant. If the mood doesn’t stabilize then, add a mood stabilizer. This is called “cascading medications”. No thank you!
Eliz ever since I turned 40., that’s 12 years ago they pushed me to screen for diabetes cholesterol ect because in doctors words “you’re getting on a bit now! “I took the form but never tested until last year when the anaemia presented. Doc was horrified I’d never had it done but funny I was never chased about THAT, just the smear. My bp and weight have always been fine. Anyway I had cholesterol diabetes everything last year all fine save the iron count. Even if I’d had high cholesterol I’d not have accepted statins! And I’m taking OTC iron now. I never went back after the last fiasco when more time was devoted to my lack of smears rather than my lack of iron! Interestingly a relative of mine was told high cholesterol. She also refused statins..
@katrehman:
Both of my parents had diabetes, which gave me an approximately 100% chance of developing it sometime in middle-age. As such, I’ve had it screened periodically throughout my life. One year, it ran up over 300! That indicates “diabetes” quite clearly.
The doc gave me a cholesterol test when I first went to see her after this community screening I had. Yeah, my lipids were off. She recommended that I take a statin. And, since my blood pressure was *slightly* elevated, both as a result of anxiety from having known blood sugar/diabetes problems, my general concern over medical specialists, and a policy of the business office which is risky for everything from fraud to identity theft – and which would not hold up as a blanket consent – or indication of consent (according to my attorney), she wanted to put me on a beta blocker to lower blood pressure.
I said no to the statin and the beta blocker. I had a quack put me on a blood pressure lowering medication (apparently) to give me “lingering symptoms” (actually due to low blood pressure – measured elsewhere at 74/28), and could then justify much more treatment. No, I don’t want to do that again.
Reading reputable sites online, I’ve found that having an abnormal blood sugar translates into the lipid levels being out of whack too. That is one reason that people with diabetes are more likely to have heart attacks and strokes. No, I’ll take care of the root cause – which actually is a medical problem – and let the hard-sell ones take care of themselves.
The blood pressure normalized, and shows up at 110/70 at home or in the pharmacy. It was somewhat higher in the clinic (114/82) because of my issues with the medical profession.
I refused a cholesterol test this time. One issue about any test is what you will do with the results, regardless of what they are. I don’t plan to change anything, including my diet (diabetes diet is low fat anyway), nor take a pill. So, it’s a waste of money.
Look up CA125 reliability and you will find out this test is not reliable. There is no reliable test for ovarian cancer but because some doctors seem to think that women’s cancers such as ovarian, cervical, uterine, and breast cancer can “prevented” by surgical removal, it is pushed.
Cholersterol is a building block of many of the body’s hormones. Most middle aged people have much stress in their life so you would think that their cortisol levels would be increased. For the body to make more cortisol or other hormones then it needs to make cholesterol. The body makes cholesterol and not all of it comes from diet. I am reading more information about the harms of statins including increasing diabetes.
Diabetes is supposedly increasing in the older population. This is serious if a person is going to lose kidney finction or limbs but many people are just borderline and could adjust their diet. Firther more the limit at which blood sugar is diagnosed as diabetes was lowered several years ago resulting in more people being medicated.
I have met older people who are healthy and feeling fine but told they have diabetes and that they have to be concerned, change their diet etc. When someone is 82 they should be more carefree. We all die sometime and we do not need to be tortued by medical interventions.
For me, I refuse “check-ups”. I did get a blood test a few years ago but the doctor refused to give me a copy of the test results. He would just tell me they were normal and not even give me the numbers. So why have public health insurance pay for that? It was not useful to me at all. I am only going to see a doctor if I have a problem. Even the lung/chronic broncitis problem I fixed with research on the internet and herbal/alternative treatments.
You’re right. There is no reliable test for early-stage ovarian cancer. By the time it can be felt “palpated” in any sort of exam, it is no longer early stage, and has no doubt spread to other organs. Yet, they continue to push the pelvic examination as a way to “prevent” ovarian cancer.
The issue with cholesterol appears to be mainly a misuse of the terms, and lack of understanding of what cholesterol is or does. For one thing, it is not a lipid… it is chemically an alcohol. Note the -ol at the end of cholesterol, like other words like alcohOL, methanOL, ethanOL, etc. This is the building block for all hormones. Without it, we would have no hormones of any kind, and would not live very long that way.
Lipids (e.g., fats) enter the picture because both HDL and LDL and vLDL lipids carry the cholesterol to where it is needed throughout the endocrine system to produce various hormones. If these fats get out of whack, they can adhere to the insides of arteries, clogging them up. The HDLs (high density lipids) can be thought of like a double-decker bus – they transport many along a route, and they get off and on as needed. LDLs (low density lipids) can be thought of like a sedan. They carry several people along a road, and passengers can get out or more picked up as needed within a tight limit. VLDLs can be thought of as sports cars – they can take a couple of people from place to place. If you want to get as many people as possible to a place, you use the large busses – not sports cars. Think of evacuating a city for an impending storm.
Some of these fats are produced by the liver, and some are obtained from diet. Statins were invented for the very rare condition where the liver ONLY makes the low-density and very-low-density lipids for transporting cholesterol. However, as in the case of many good drugs, a rush is made to find more people to take it.
These do reduce the LDLs and vLDLs, apparently, and sometimes raise the HDLs. But, like I said, it does not seem to reduce coronary problems, although the numbers look normal. There’s something else going on there.
Furthermore, yes, they do increase the risk of type 2 diabetes developing, as well as make diabetes of either type 1 or type 2 more difficult to control. There is an uncommon side effect of muscularskelletal pain – and this is usually not reversible even after the statin is discontinued. One so affected has to deal with the pain for the rest of their life – along with the limited mobility, limited exercise ability, and this all makes things worse. There is an association of statins with memory loss… and even a side effect of some people developing delusional, paranoid, or psychotic symptoms. There is another where people very occasionally do an atypical violent act, which they do not remember. This has led to some tragic outcomes, including prison sentences for the people who engage in such violence.
One safer chemical that can reduce arterial plaque is niacin (vitamin B3). Note that this is NOT the same as niacinamide, which is also classified as vitamin B3. It may be a miscategorization, although as a vitamin they appear to do the same or similar things in the body. The truth is that we need both. However, if one takes a lot more niacin than is ordinarily found in a diet, it acts as a vaso-dialator, and removes the plaque. It puts it back into the blood stream, where it is turned into glucose or (sometimes) burned directly (not a good thing, really). Caution is in order if you are a diabetic using niacin… and it’s usually not recommended because patients are viewed as “too stupid” to keep track of their blood sugar, and adjust their glucose intake to compensate for the glucose being made from these LDL and vLDL cholesterol “vehicles”.
Furthermore, the standard cholesterol test is flawed, since the cholesterol level, including HDL and LDL levels are computed off of other things in the blood. The vLDL levels are neither computed nor reported, and those appear to be the most dangerous component. The total cholesterol is computed by adding the HDL and LDL levels, which are already computed, and it does not include the vLDL.
http://m.bjgp.org/content/66/644/e189
This item just recently appeared. Visualising the cervix in 20-something women with symptoms AND cervical cancer just doesn’t work.
Re abnormal results. I reckon that authorities have known the likely fiasco that the “abnormality” merry-go-round would cause, perhaps in relation to other screening procedures too. I’d go as far as to say they probably like it, profit from it and promote it as the only way to be “sure” that you’re free of cervical cancer or whatever disease you are being screened for.
I find the use of the word “abnormalities” to be misleading, erroneous and morally reprehensible in the extreme. In relation to CC, authorities have known for at least fifteen years that these cell changes are in the VAST MAJORITY of instances, completely harmless, innocent and totally normal, yet they have deliberately bandied this word around to get women worked up about cancer and keep them engaged in the programme.
They fool and mislead women into believing abnormalities=pre-cancer cells (how many women, er, “survivors” have said online, “a smear saved my life. Had it not been for a smear, my pre-cancerous cells would never have been found”).
Who told them that these cells were pre-cancerous or at the very least, encouraged this belief? I’d hazard a guess, ignorant and militant nurses and their superiors.
Although I acknowledge your point in another post, that women’s legal and ethical rights were not respected when this screening was rolled out, I do still find it hard to fathom how so many women have become strong proponents of it.
Re other screening. I am now very dubious of all screening programmes. Not sure about cholesterol screening (I need to research it more I think) but it is aligned to the sort of conditions that do genuinely concern me, along with diabetes, heart disease, and due to their prevalence, better merit a screening programme. But the current approaches fo not fill me with optimism. And I have this nagging fear of my details being held on some Orwelian database that in future, could be used to our disadvantage or for sinister purposes.
Other screenings have their reference ranges periodically changed (mostly lowered/tightened) such that many more suddenly “need treatment”. This has been true with cholesterol, where the maximum LDL levels overlap the level at which depression becomes problematic from having low cholesterol. Blood pressure limits have been lowered too. Now, millions more people “need” expensive statins and hypertensives. It makes for good profits for pharmaceutical companies. Makes for a good market for treating all of the secondary conditions these cures and sometimes conditions create.