Unnecessary Pap Smears Discussion Forum

This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion, and is a continuation of the old Blogcritics’ Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion.  The original Blogcritics Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion had more than 10,000 comments, but the comments were deleted following changes to the Blogcritics’ site.

Fortunately, the comments from Blogcritics have since been recovered and are preserved here: http://unnecessarypapsmears.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/over-10000-lost-comments-on-unnecessary-pap-smears-find-a-home/   This post also provides a ‘part three’ continuation of the ‘part two’ discussion forum that exists on this site: https://forwomenseyesonly.com/2013/09/22/discussion-forum/

Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.

2,520 comments

  1. Sorry it’s me again , haven’t been sleeping too well lately so I’ve been up all night watching the news, the BBC says it understands the Covid jab is to be made compulsory in England for all care home staff, we know that this carries the risk of blood clots and has been determined to be the cause of death in some cases, so my question is if their autonomy is taken away , and they are FORCED to take the jab which results in a death , which minister or ministers will be facing the charge of manslaughter.

    • Hear in the states, we are being bribed with winning money. They want more people vaccinated. A lot of people don’t trust it. They are trying to make unvaccinated feel targeted. Like telling them they have to be excluded in certain activities. I don’t think people are listening tho.

      • Heck, I’ve been targeted for having the audacity to wait for the protein subunit vax that should release by the end of the year! And continuing to mask/distance though I’ll do that even after being vaxxed because I’ve read enough to know its too soon to stop. Apparently, it’s not enough for some folks to get vaxxed, it has to be mRNA or go to Hell antivaxxer,and if you’re vaxxed you damn well better drop the mask or else how will they know who to assault?

        When you’re enraged that someone is choosing a different vax than the experimental mRNA, it doesn’t make you a responsible pro-vaxxer, it makes you an mRNA stan.

        It makes me think of those pro-gyn, pro-pap folks who consider self-hpv tests to be exactly as bad as not being screened at all, because it’s not about a supposed “concern for health” its about pap fandom.

      • It’s just been announced in UK care home staff will be forced to have vaccine or lose their jobs and they are looking at making it mandatory for NHS workers too, and making them have the flu vaccine too! I can see a lot of legal challenges! I had my 1st AZ jab, but declined the second one as I’m not convinced it’s safe. I do get the flu vaccine. I do wonder what will next be made mandatory… smears maybe??

    • Different posters hold divergent views about the Covid vaccine and previous discussions about it got a little heated. Rather than potentially causing hard feelings among friends, I wonder if it would be best to stick with the main purpose of this board – to discuss the lack of transparency, honesty and informed consent in women’s healthcare and to educate, enlighten and empower each other to advocate for ourselves in a medical setting.

  2. Hi Judy,
    You’re absolutely right that the Covid issue should not be incorporated into our own agenda, every individual has their own opinion and right to self govern where the vaccine is concerned, I think what the others mean is that if the government can bypass the individual choice of bodily autonomy and the human rights act section 8 to achieve their goals
    With this enforced proposal ,what other procedures could also be enforced in the name of healthcare by them ,and surely that does concern us and our agenda if we are complacent with this issue , we may all end up in the stirrups by law.
    Hugs Jules x.

    • Hi Jules- yes, of course and the concern about possible threats to individual liberties and bodily autonomy is very understandable. But anyhow, to follow my own advice on discussion topics – ovarian cancer has been in the news this week. Apparently, Christiane Amanpour, the CNN international news anchor was recently diagnosed with it. She said she went public “as a shoutout to early detection.” She also urged women to “get as many regular screenings and scans as you can.” Which sounds all warm and fuzzy until you realize there IS no early detection test for ovarian cancer. It’s surprising that a journalist of her stature could spread such misinformation. I wish her well and realize she may be emotional in the face of a devastating diagnosis and not thinking clearly. But she’s doing women a disservice to lead them into believing any screening or scan routinely leads to diagnosis of ovarian cancer in its early stages. Rather, as we all know, these tests are more likely to harm than to help.

      • It is amazing to me that people who make full information about such screenings have to include “this is not medical.advice, please do more research and discuss with your doctor” and emphasise it so it can’t be missed, but this kind of ignorant deal is allowed to be reported and promoted with zero disclaimers at all, even though our side is merely offering well-documented facts that are usually omitted from official discussions while this is baseless nonsense she is pulling out of her rear. Why are you at risk of lawsuit for telling people to do their own research and get fully informed before accepting a medical exam, but not at risk for telling people to get a medical exam to prevent a cancer it doesn’t even test for?

        So telling people the well-documented but un-reported cons to compliment the overly advertised and exaggerated pros of a medical test needs a careful disclaimer, but telling people to get thorough genital exams to prevent ovarian cancer despite there being no test in existence for ovarian cancer is just fine as-is?

  3. Has anyone UK noticed that this year there’s less in the press about cervical hysteria week? Daily fail would usually have printed a couple articles by now raising awareness!? Nada so far! Not that I’m complaining!

  4. Hi kat,
    Don’t forget pro screeners have just gotten their arse kicked for one of their latest promotional slogans, and they maybe at a loss as to which direction to go now as in the past they relied heavily on ridicule,I suppose it would be too much to ask , for truthful disclosure on test accuracy, information on false negative or false positive findings and the treatments and after effects of these, proberly not . So I’m just waiting for the next infantile and scolding attempt by them to round up the herd, it’s almost pitiful (NOT). Hugs Jules x.

  5. Hi Judy,
    Sad news about Christiane Amanpour, but what surprises me most is her total lack of understanding, by anyone’s standard she couldn’t be described as dumb, she was well educated achieving good grades at school and going on to gain a degree in journalism from Rhode Island university, she’s gone on to jetting all around the world reporting in war torn world conflicts and becoming a news anchor person with her own news programme.
    At 63 years old she has probably had considerable life experiences, so why has she been so naive over her illness it just doesn’t make sense. The only answer I can think of is that she has been misled by the medical profession, by going for regular checks women have been led to believe this checks for every vaginal disease under the sun ,when in truth it only detects cell changes on the cervix and even then it’s far from being 100% . Surely with this being a high profile case and her going public with it , why has no medical establishment has come forward to correct her and pointed out to this present day there is no test for ovarian cancer. It simply comes down to a lack of information released by the medical profession they are reluctant to do this as more women will leave their testing programmes if the truth becomes readily available

    • My heart is just wrenched when I hear if any woman’s cancer story. I winder how much pain and worry Christian Amanpour had before she finally got a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. Consider Fran Drescher who had a struggle of two years to get doctors to finally diagnose her uterine cancer. Just so tragic.

    • It’s interesting because the medical establishment has occasionally publicly corrected celebrities who give inaccurate information – i.e., that early detection of breast cancer is always lifesaving when in reality 25%-30% of these cancers, even if found by mammogram, eventually metastasize. Perhaps in the case of Ms. Amanpour its more difficult because she hasn’t disclosed any specifics about her case (like stage, etc. – though it was likely discovered late stage as the vast majority of these cancers are). For all anyone knows, she was having her much-touted regular screenings and scans and was the one in a gazillion who got extraordinarily lucky and her cancer was found early this way. But that would be an extremely rare case and she would still be irresponsible for spouting this wildly inaccurate information.

  6. Hi ladies,
    Just come across a report from 2017 and wondered if anybody else had seen it. In an observational study by the Keck School of medicine usc, found that the use of iud’s led to a decrease of cervical cancer in approximately 30% of the study participants which involved 12,000 women, the lead professor a dr Victoria Cortessis phd said the findings were astounding although there is no clear indication why this is, it is the belief that the body responds to the introduction of the iud as a foreign body and reacts by increasing the immune system in that area, and in turn eradicating the hpv virus if present. Just wondered if anyone has any further info on this.
    Love Helper x.

    • HPV reduced? If woman has hpv already, and especially if it’s in the endocervical canal, then inserting an iud would spread hpv further.

  7. Hi ladies,
    Just been on Jo’s tosh and things might be looking up, they have always liked passing the begging bowl round , but times must be especially hard at the moment, as when you check out their donation section they are asking for
    £16.00 , £30.00 or £50.00 , off their followers, looks like times are a bit grim for them at the minute
    ( where’s the chianti) lol.
    Hugs Jules x..

  8. Hi ladies,
    In Scotland the screening programme has come in for criticism for the exclusion of 430 women from smears who had , had sub-total hysterectomies over the past 24 years, which has led to the death of one of them from cervical cancer.
    The women’s health minister
    Maree Todd acknowledged the failure and apologised to the women involved, and condolences to the family of the deceased woman, the remaining women have been fast tracked for appointments with hospitals and gp’s , the Scottish government has provided funding to Jo’s tosh to give support and advice to women who may of been affected, after cervical awareness week, this incident is most certainly not the best way to promote their programme, if they must impose this dreadful test on women they should at least get it
    f..cling right. My heartfelt sympathy goes out to this women’s family.
    and an increased hatred to this profession.
    Hugs Jules x.

  9. Hey everyone. So, I’ve been doing lots and lots of reading and research on pregnancy and unassisted childbirth, specifically on the “Women Against Stirrups” website, which led to many other sources I was able to get my information from. My eyes have been wide open to, whenever my time comes, wanting more and more to give birth completely unassisted at home instead of at a hospital. First off, I already know that even during pregnancy, the pap tests (aka the medical rape tests) are completely unnecessary and are sometimes the primary causes of miscarriages (omg who knew?? *sarcasm*). Second, the fact that pregnancy and childbirth are treated as one of the most serious medical emergencies is just outrageous. Seriously? One of the most natural of things in the entire world that humans and all other species of animals have been doing since the beginning of time, is an emergency situation and when not done with 50 doctors and nurses intervening the entire time it’s “risky” and “dangerous”?
    I have learned that through my reading, the primary cause of labor pains being as intense as they are, is intervention and lack of privacy. The cervix is basically a sphincter, like one in the anus. It does NOT respond well to commands like “push” and “just relax.” It doesn’t respond well either to eyes gazing in that area, and that is why the uterus and cervix tenses and tightens up so much more than it should. Even if you “trust” the doctor or midwife, your body tells you “I am NOT comfortable with this.” There are MUCH fewer risks of complications during pregnancy and birth if you just let your body do its thing and do it all on your own. Women back in the day and even other animals would completely isolate themselves and do their laboring and birthing within a matter of 2 hours, wash themselves off and their newborn baby, and come back and resume their normal life. Because of no intervention, their births were relatively painless and effortless, which in turn won’t cause them to tear!
    With all this amazing and informative information I’ve read, I’ve decided that whenever my time comes, whenever my husband and I decide to have kids, that I’ll be birthing at home, unassisted. I only have a few questions, however. What if I experience some complications in the middle of the pregnancy, or will it be less likely that I’ll experience complications with the unborn baby when I don’t go in for exams? Because of course, I know there can be like premature heart problems or other defects, when not taken care of, that can be very dangerous and possibly fatal to the mother. If the fetus dies and I have a miscarriage, would I just have to run to the bathroom and let the sac come out or something? I would love to hear all your guys’ input and knowledge on this subject. Sorry if there are a lot of questions lol and sorry this post is so long, but I appreciate if any of you took the time to read. Also, would I be able to go to non-transvaginal ultrasounds without the pressure of getting any pelvic exam done? (Probably not lol)

    • Hey Anonymous! I don’t know which country your in, but I read an article in a UK magazine about non medicalised birth. Here in UK it’s perfectly legal to refuse some or all pregnancy care, including scans and ultrasounds. It’s also legal to give birth at home with no midwife or medical ppl around. I guess the cons of no care is that you could end up with a prolapsed cord or low lying placenta which could cause problems. I wrote a birth plan, 25 years ago, I had all my scans , but requested a minimum of internals and didn’t want my waters artificially broken. My daughter was also overdue, and I didn’t want to be induced; she was still moving fine, and I went regularly to hospital for monitoring, she came when she was ready! Let us know what happens with you!!

      • Hi Kat, I’m in the US and unfortunately it’s legally required to have a midwife or doula or something if you’re doing a home birth… however my mother is a doula so I can easily have her be my doula and I know she’ll definitely respect any of my requests. However I’m wondering if I would be able to like, not tell my doctor when I get pregnant, and no one in the medical field has to know until after they’re born lol, would that be possible or is that “too risky” for the baby or myself? Or maybe, I can just go in for ultrasounds and let them know that my mom will be my doula and everything’s good??? Sorry, a hundred more questions haha.
        Also, I hate the idea of inducing labor! Seriously, so what if they’re not due EXACTLY on their due date??? They’ll come out when they’re ready! Birth being so medicalized is just beyond me… it’s 100% natural, not a medical emergency.
        Anyway, I’d love to hear more input. I think my only other concern really is maintaining a healthy weight, because I’m a little underweight, and I hear that I’d be at risk for a premature birth. I’m 5’7 and weigh around 115lbs; super high metabolism lol. Really the only way I can gain weight is by lifting weights. Cardio won’t do much, so I need to actually lift and eat a ton more protein.

      • If you’re forced to induce, it’s so painful you’ll never want to birth again.

    • Hi Anonymous,

      I’m of the same view.

      My advice to you (based on homebirth midwives’ views in Australia) is that your vagina does not ask for your BMI.

      Second, inductions… here in Aus, they put in a epidural, which basically immobilises you. More often than not, the baby can’t cope with the unnatural intensity.

  10. Hi anonymous, Reading your post, you are already going in the right direction by researching, the female body is amazing, and reproduction is a natural process, when you decide to have children, be wary of medical intervention remember it’s your body your decision and they can’t do a thing without your concent, when I arrived at this site I was clueless, now I say “bring it on”.

    • Hi Anonymous: again, I think it boils down to the law in your country: legally there you have to be attended at birth, what rules apply to pregnancy?? I have read things are tightening up in the USA all round with abortion and fetid rights? Here as said we can refuse any or all care and don’t have to be attended! I agree 100% with all your comments about birth being medicalised but being so natural, I remember being shocked when I was pregnant for 1 st and only time 25 years ago I was classed as an older 1st time mum at just 32!?

  11. Hi ladies, it seems that Matt Hancock is in deep trouble for being exposed as an adulterer, and breaching social distancing rules, let me guess , would it of been by two metres and six inches maybe, no doubt he will be replaced , hopefully by someone who is more sympathetic to scientific studies, and reasoning.
    Love Helper x.

    • Hi Helper yes another slime ball gone! I wish the whole bloody lot would go! As someone who endured sexual harassment for years in my last job I was really upset about Boris rape comments last week, and can only imagine how rape survivors felt!! I still remember Demonic Cummins as I call him driving to a beauty spot to test his eyesight! Now Matt cock it up Hancock (in more ways than one) has gone too!

  12. https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/215/8/self-collection-cervical-screening-renewed-national-cervical-screening-program

    HPV self-testing still so slow in coming, which this Australian paper puts down to a complete lack of awareness, not only amongst women, but also amongst GPs. Even after becoming available since 2017, they still don’t appear to know about it. It is sad that they are still doing these pilots, when other countries have reported on self-swabbing as being much preferred to the violating invasive test. They report only 57% uptake of cervical screening in Australia, (much of that under pressure, no doubt), but don’t seem to think that this shows an overwhelming lack of acceptability of the invasive test. Yet they do all this research into whether women would find swabbing themselves in private an acceptable experience.

  13. Hi adawells,
    My take on this, is that the powers that be have designed the self test programme for HPV to fail from the onset, if they were truly serious about implementing it , there would of been a massive public advertising campaign, with all the relevant information being on radio , tv , newspapers, women’s magazines, leaflets through doors, they might have the impression that if it’s kept low key and uptake is low they can say that it was introduced but because of lack of interest ,they are reverting back to the old method, as we all know they hate relinquishing their “power” over women, keeping us in the dark and feeding us misinformation has always been the rule of the day.
    Hugs Jules x.

    • The ideal “self-test” is the Delphi Screener. This is the only “passive collection” test in existence. Meaning although you do insert it into the vagina, it doesn’t physically harm nor disturb the cervix.
      Like the Trovagene test; but that’s based on urine. So both are passive but different in how each is utilized.
      The other self test kits all involve some sort of “swabbing” the cervix.
      This, as I’ve said, disturbs the mucus covering the cervix.
      If you’ve got the virus, the last thing you want is to possibly scratch or message the virus into the tissues. That mucus is there for a reason. It’s to protect. And lubricate.
      So yes, the self tests selected are set to fail.
      Because no doubt these will spread the virus around the cervix.
      Business has changed somewhat, but it’s still business as usual.
      Please take this info to your healthcare HQ and ask them to comment. I’d love to know…

  14. So Seeker will have a series about women’s health and why its so limited. This opener gave a promising start by decrying bikini medicine, but is it my imagination or does it go on to promote bikini medicine in part?

    Thought I’d send this out to my pro-choice-in-health-care sisters to see what you think and to heads-up for the future of this new show. If they go off the rails into pro-bikini medicine while pretending to oppose it, I’m sure they’ll get some good pushback!

    • Hi Demonhype,
      Any open discussions on female healthcare is welcome , bringing this topic to the masses so more awareness is available is fantastic, as long as it’s non biased and all sides have their chance to air their opinions .
      Hugs Jules x.

      • Hi Jules!

        I get it, I’m just hoping its not, like, an attempt to co-opt gyn-critical language and terms for the industry propaganda machine. Seen that happen a scary lot of times in.other contexts. So the “isn’t it just terrible how women’s health only focuses on bikini areas to the exclusion of everything else, now lets focus on the bikini areas” makes me a bit apprehensive.

  15. Hi ladies,
    A report on sky news today has said that tens of thousands of women across the uk that have received the Covid vaccine have had significant changes from the normal in their cycles.
    This must be down to the fact that it has an effect on the hormonal balance of women, how come this has only just been disclosed when approximately 65% of the country has been vaccinated, and what other side effects will come to light in the future, as usual we are being kept in the dark and fed propaganda
    (Sound familiar) .
    Hugs Jules x.

    • This article is not accurate.
      Thr tenaculum is not a clamp or clamping device.
      It’s a single pointed “claw” like appearing device. With a handle for the doctor to grip and manipulate.
      Once the speculum has you opened like you’re gonna have sex with an alien, the tenaculum is used.
      It’s literally stabbed into side of cervix.
      Then the cervix can be manipulated and pulled into position.
      The pain? It’s hellish cramping and spasm as your cervix fights this most unnatural torture. Your cervix is full of sympathetic nerves. These monitor and report pain, dilation, cramps.
      Picture as many nerves as is in penis head.
      Now as the cervix is pulled and held the cold metal dilators are used to forcibly open the cervix. You’ll experience burning pain and cramps in cervix and uterus.
      After cervix is forcibly dilated in which it now bleeds along with tenaculum penetratuon hole.
      Next comes the uterine sound. This dilates you more as well as touching back of uterus.
      My internist doctor says it’s the most pain in 2.5 minutes she’ll ever experience–but then she won’t have to worry about it again for 5 years.
      So that bs nonsense stinking thinking makes it all permissible and valid?!
      Next, after the uterine sound is withdrawn, the device is inserted which delivers the IUD into place.
      This is also hellish but you’re in shock by this time.
      Then more pain as everything is withdrawn.
      This is an accurate accounting.
      This is no more fair to husbands and partners and even kids at home. They are involuntarily stuck dealing with after effects.
      This is traumatic all around.

      • And the $1,000,000 question is – why on earth would any woman subject herself to this?

      • If women new, they NEVER would allow it.
        That’s one of the reasons why the “privacy sheet” or tarp is used.
        It afford the doctor, not the patient, privacy to do what s/he wants.
        You never get to see the instruments used on you. They are on the tray; usually covered for “sterility” but believe me they were uncovered before you got there.
        My husband uses something similar to stab an aluminum can he can’t reach.
        A tenaculum is literally a nail mounted 90′ from an extension bar with a handle.
        Imagine a tomato impelled with something like that.
        Imagine a male doctor quickly covering his genitals if you held one up to use on him.

  16. Hi cat & mouse,
    I had been looking at long term contraception during my last relationship, unfortunately it ended before I had made the decision ,and since then I have never had to make the choice, with a bit of a man famine and Covid coming into play, but the iud was towards the top of the list, but reading your post made me think twice, at the time I had been to the family planning clinic and picked up all the information I could on the different options, and their description of the procedure was that only 5% of women felt pain and most only felt mild discomfort, pinching or slight cramping (lying bast..ds ) Reading your post soon had me checking it all out, there are numerous sites with women’s stories and some are simply horrendous, one lady screamed that they had to stop the procedure as she had never felt pain like it just before she threw up and then passed out, the people who come up with these types of medical interventions must have torture dungeons in their basements, needless to say this option has now been struck from the list.
    Hugs Jules x.

    • We are here for three reasons. To educate and to be educated. The share our experiences be they what they may. However as we all know most experiences with ob-gyne are poor. And, sharing to help prevent another from experiencing what I endured. Both my husband and I have had very bad experiences with doctors and hospitals.
      We are adamant about NOT going into an exam room alone. You are dealing with an educated, motivated individual who’s already compromised his/her values to get where they are. Your needs, your pain, isn’t even on their radar screens. They don’t care.
      With my pain, this has been a rough day. Especially with the f-up’d nonsense how narcotics are now administered.
      I’m tired of male physicians who treat us as hysterical and not as a patient; let alone as a whole body patient. There’s other parts to us than a vagina. And just because we have one, doesn’t mean that it’s time for high school science class again. You know? I require brand name meds. Generics are like drinking a liter of beer and expecting you can piss out a forest fire when you should simply stick to extinguishing bbq’s in the stadium parking lot.
      Doctors don’t believe us. Especially when it’s to do with pain.
      Before you were here, I discussed what it’s like to experience an endometrial biopsy. Briefly I’ll review this; because I feel you’ll pick up on the similar language in its explanation compared to that BS you got re IUD’s.
      I was told the biopsy was routine and that I might experience mild cramping like period cramping. No anesthesia required.
      My husband knows my pain tolerances which are abnormally high. This is because I need both knees replaced and my shoulder replaced as well. I have chronic regional pain syndrome, bodily. So when hubby heard me screaming, saw me physically recoiling, making fists, crying, leaving my fingernail marks on his wrist, he wanted to know why. The doctor acted as if this was a total surprise to him. The lying **** even exclaimed he’d never seed my reaction before.
      When I go back, he wants to repeat it. What does he say? That it’s like experiencing mild cramping, like period cramping. With that my husband stopped him. I was already curling up on the exam table. This is why it’s good to have a buddy with you who knows what goes on. Your bodyguard in a most literal sense.
      If an appt goes poorly, who has to deal with it? The spouse. So it’s fair he has a say and vice versa.
      My husband went on YouTube and viewed this procedure, top of that he’d already been busy researching other things as well. What the doctor didn’t know is that hubby also accessed a medical text online from UC Berkeley. My husband told him that the test is known as the most painful thing outside childbirth. He disclosed where he read it. And that if it’s truly necessary then the outpatient surgical center would have to be reserved so I could get anesthesia and analgesia. The doctor’s eyes opened. Suddenly he dropped the need for a repeat test. It wasn’t so necessarily after all. We never went back.
      This came from a doctor who at one time was running the fertility program at a major San Diego Hospital. I cringe what he and others put woman through to get pregnant. It’s why my husband refused to have children. How many couples divorce after childbirth due to the experience and the doctors/nurses? I’d like to know. The father to be isn’t allowed to participate in his wife’s care. He cannot advocate and protect her. She feels violated over the whole thing. It ruins the very thing it’s supposed to help foster.
      My husband’s ex-best friend is an anesthesiologist. He also isn’t concerned with pain, kids included, as he is when he sees an unconscious true red head in stirrups. His arousal is disgusting. And he also allows med students in to practice pelvic exams on unconscious women.
      Youtube had a video of a doctor performing the endometrial biopsy.
      This guy specifically said in advance how painful it is. He (male doctor; not female) gives his patients an IV for sedation and analgesia. He also has them take Rx anti-inflammatory plus he injects via catheter into the uterus 5cc’s of 2% lido. And he still insists that most women will faint afterwards. That’s because even though the pain is blocked enough is sensed that can cause a vagus nerve reaction.
      That guy is a saint!
      Did you notice the language, “…like mild period cramping…”? Seems to be their do-all excuse.
      What I’d give to perform a pap scrape, biopsy collection, etc, on the head of my former doctor penis.
      Not all doctors are idiots. The specialist I’m seeing for my rectocele refused to do a speculum exam due to my lichen sclerosis. That guy treated me like a person. He cared for me, my husband, and how I felt. Another saint!
      Always go on YouTube or to venues where you can get an honest explanation.
      If a pap is uncomfortable or painful, then imagine what an IUD and/or biopsy is like.
      And only 5% of women felt pain? Really? Then they must also be including med school cadavers in the remaining 95%.
      Thank you for your patience. God Bless you Jules.
      And hope you find the guy that’s worth going on birth control.

      • Some time ago someone posted a dictionary of Australian medical deception terms related to pain. I am sure they are applicable to many other countries.
        Medical bullshit vs patient’s reality:
        “painless” – serious discomfort
        “virtually painless” – painful
        “mild discomfort” – very painful
        “some pain” – extreme agony

      • Love it.
        Unfortunately there’s a lot to that reality.
        You forgot “like mild menstrual cramping” that’s the excuse du jour I’ve heard most.
        If any of you have late life post vaginal birth incontinence I thoroughly recommend ThermiVa.
        Although I had C-section I’ll be having this for lichen sclerosis.

    • It is a sadistic yet common practice: the medical profession routinely uses euphemisms and downplays the pain, calling painful procedures “painless”, and extreme pain — “mild discomfort”. They know that it is impossible for the patient to quantify the pain and later prove what it felt like, so they say whatever keeps the medical conveyor belt going smoothly, quickly and profitably.

    • I know this is late in the day and not sure what your personal circumstances are.

      I suffer from very heavy and painful periods and also experience cramping even during ovulation (sorry for TMI). The former means I am incapacitated for 2 days every month and am severely anaemic.

      I have a blood pressure machine at home and decided to order the pill online from Superdrug Online Doctor. It’s fabulous. So discreet and the pill has transformed my life.

      Obviously, it’s not suitable for everyone and you need to check you don’t have a family history of blood clots etc but if you can take it, I’d recommend it.

      I was on it years ago without any problems, which is another reason why I decided to skip a doctor’s visit.

      • I’ve talked about how useless my former ob-gyn was and evolved to be even worse. Pap was the only thing he knew.
        Presently I’m seen by a fertility expert and a urogyne. The first runs my hrt the second is going to surgically repair me.
        I’m grateful to God that my husband still pursues sex and that I’m still multi orgasmic. It has not been easy.
        It’s my husband who bucked the system and enabled my liberation from captive fear mongering medical care.
        Including that my pharmacists orders generic and brand name meds I need.
        This site, your experiences, are what we both needed to gain confidence needed and necessary to challenge the status quo.

  17. Hi cat &mouse,
    I probably went a little overboard after your post, to the point of actually watching the procedure on a couple of medical sites, this led to watching vids of other “treatments”,and was left almost in shock, vids of hysterectomys and
    vaginal hysterectomys, are particularly unsettling , the actual brutality of the operation is horrific they twist , pull , tug and yank at the organ or organs they are removing apparently devoid of any compassion for the lady undergoing this operation she may as well be a slab of meat ( do not search for these if you have a weak disposition) we seem to be under the misapprehension that surgery is a precise and accurate intervention, where in reality they hack and slash in a similar fashion to Jack the Ripper, and yet this only seems to manifest itself in female healthcare, could it be that these surgeons are failed real surgeons and are taking their frustrations out on us.
    Hugs Jules x.

    • We watched the vaginal hysterectomy in horror. That, believe it or not, is the preferred procedure for removing cervix and uterus! As one piece!
      It’s like watching a mechanic remove a spark plug.
      The patient is given a large bolus of Michael Jackson milk or propofol. Very deep anesthesia. The vagina is opened up as if delivering a fetus.
      Did you get to see an endometrial biopsy?
      The more painful procedures are shown as “animated” like a cartoon. Complete with monotone robotic female voice. Things we should know, questions we need answered always go untold. It’s to falsely assure us all will be well. Nada to fear.
      Last night we spoke to a lady. She wanted to know why a woman must undergo a pap scrape 6 weeks after delivering a baby.
      It’s defensive medicine.
      You get scraped; the glass slide gets smeared w your bloody cells.
      Medical texts say the cervix is going to naturally show abnormal cells at different times and 6 weeks post partum is one of those.
      Same with a young teen, a newly pregnant woman, and different times of a cycle. They try to get you in at same time of cycle yearly so as to find an average when your cells provide a fairly consistent sample.
      Did you watch LEEP? The cervix amputation.

  18. Hi cat& mouse,
    I will view these vids but I’m taking a break for a day or so, there’s only so much my stomach and mind will take at this moment in time, it’s certainly not what I expected, but to give an opinion you must have all the facts , and although these vids are thoroughly sickening knowledge is power and vitality important if we are to stand our ground in medical situations,
    Going to have a couple of glasses of red now , else I probably wouldn’t sleep.
    Hugs Jules x.

    • A couple years I found several videos from an ob gyn going by med2med or med2 or something like that. He’s located in the South US somewhere as I remember.
      He loved doing LEEP’s. I despised this jerk and enjoyed writing the truth on his warped site.
      What are some of your favorite, or non favorite brainwashing sites?
      Like, which ones did you have to check your rage or struggle to keep from vomiting?

  19. Hi cat& mouse,
    I managed to pluck up the courage to do some more viewing, a little apprehensive at the content I would see after yesterday but
    I managed to get through four treatment vids including the LEEP and cold knife surgery on the cervix , the site is called journals.llw. com.
    Obstetrics& gynaecology. But if anybody feels the need to view this site please be prepared, I never knew there were so many procedures that involved the vagina there are literally dozens , and these vids are for medical students and
    doctors so they are pretty graphic and distressing. Another site I went to after I needed another break was a women’s group who had set up a comment page for women who had suffered because of having LEEP and one of drawbacks for vast majority of them was the fact that they had lost the ability to orgasm during intercourse, and even cases where all sexual desire was lost and in turn marriages had broken up. It’s hard to see that these treatments do not do more harm than good than good, with the mental anguish , physical consequence and break up of marriages, the more I learn about this, the more I think I would just let nature take its course whatever the consequence.
    Hugs Jules x.

    • This is what my last pap scrape from 7/06 said. The Disclaimer: “The Pap smear is a screening test designed to aid in the detection of premalignant and malignant conditions fo the uterine cervix. It is not a diagnostic procedure and should not be sued as the sole means of detecting cervical cancer. Both false-negative and false-positive reports do occur.” Take that to your doctor, middle finger facing upwards. Afterward, turn your finger down. That means you “don’t like the horse s/he rode in on either.”
      TRUSCREEN under FAQ lists pap as only 50% accurate.
      Trovagene said their own was 93% accurate. About same as Delphi Screener.
      Then, via Healthline: An article “This Cervical Procedure To Prevent Cancer Is Causing Complications.” It’s about LEEP. It details exactly what you have said you’ve read and heard. I’m so sorry about these things.
      Then hubby found this tidbit… Letter to the Editor; The Sydney Morning Herald, 9/27/16
      This was written in response to a girl who is in stupid panic re NEW guidelines for CC or pap…that if changes are made and the youngest aren’t screened—“WOMEN WILL DIE!” Yeah, that… The author is a pathologist. He should know.
      “This is written by a poorly informed patient. A very small number of precancerous turn to cancer, and they shouldn’t be called that. The writer says she had precancerous which very different to real cancer. She had dysplasia which is very common and in the vast majority of cases resolves. Most CIN1 and 2 resolve without treatment. Even CIN3 does most of the time. Cervical cancer is an old woman’s disease because it does usually take 10 years to develop. On the other hand dysplasia in young women is very common. The ration of CC for a woman in her early 20’s is 1.6 per 100,000. The highest ratio is in women over 85.
      [I interject here that pap won’t Dx an adenocarcinoma which grows from within the cervix outward; or uterine cancer that metastasizes]
      His source: https://cervical cancer.canceraustralia.gov.au.statistics
      Leave the advice to the experts. Too many young women were having surgery on “precancels” that would have spontaneously reverted to normal. They then developed an incompetent cervix and had miscarriages.
      The new guidelines were correct.”
      Let them pour that gravy on their Yorkshire pudding.
      Many here have already read this. I apologize for writing it again.
      Please, please, print this. Place it on bathroom walls, inside toilet paper, bus stops, everywhere. Tell every friend.
      We know women who got pap at their first pregnancy visit. Why? Defensive medicine. Didn’t matter if the previous had been a month ago. This causes miscarriages and is extremely painful. Says in med texts that the cervix is very tender in pregnancy. Especially early stages. Don’t we all know that…!
      If my husband could change anything in health care, it would be this nonsense. It is heartbreaking to him. He has seen me go through so much pain. He despises these practices and the doctors who enjoy doing them despite even their own texts teaching that it’s absolutely bogus.

    • Its goid that they’re getting any kind of support though. Too many victims of bogus procedures like that get beaten down when they come forward.

    • They don’t care about any of that. Any impact on a woman’s health, wellbeing, personal relationship or quality of life is viewed as collateral.

  20. A new petition has sprung up from a woman who ‘had a cancer scare’ and wants to lower the age for screening. Apparently, she had ‘pre-cancerous cells that would have progressed to cancer without treatment’. More scaremongering and misinformation.

  21. Hi ladies,
    I can’t understand why in this day and age women who have had “near misses”diagnosed do not use their judgement and do research it’s readily available all over the internet, sites like this are a wealth of information and an absolute goldmine on medical statistics , I’m finding it increasingly hard to give sympathy to these women who blindly follow treatments reccomended by doctors and don’t question it at all, no wonder women here feel that they are banging their head against the wall trying to get this across, if I had an issue I would want to know everything I could about it, and not just simply go along with ignorance following doctors orders, but if we just give up the women who do seek help will be left out in the cold and defenceless so besides the “ I’ve been saved ones” this site is for the misinformed and willing to learn women , so don’t become disheartened, eventually we will win.
    Love Annette (Helper) xx.

    • Sadly the brainwashing around screening and these so called “essential” gynae interventions make women very dependent and feel a lot of these procedures are a rite of passage for all women. I have to wonder sometimes why these women keep going back, but it always seems to be that it might be cancer and they won’t be satisfied until every cell in their bodies has been certified cancer-free.

      Just seen this. Yet another MP supporting yearly gynae exams for women in the UK. I hope this is nipped in the bud, and the government response is noted. Yet still they keep on coming and coming, and always an MP willing to take them up.

      https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2021-0113/?utm_source=HOC+Library+-+Research+alerts&utm_campaign=a6ec24b454-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2021_07_16_08_00&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a9da1c9b17-a6ec24b454-102518849&mc_cid=a6ec24b454&mc_eid=52e4391d37

      • I know. I desperately wish for women to do their own research and make an informed decision to screen/not to screen based on balanced information and to be free from the worry and paranoia that they’re destined to be struck down by cells that ‘turn overnight’. But, I just remember, as soon as I ‘came of age’, I was harassed at every GP appointment about ‘my smear’ (the one I never wanted and certainly never opted into) and told to ‘just get it done, it’s nothing and could well save your life’. Now that they are getting into schools to drum this into young people, I don’t see informed decision making taking a step forward, sadly. Not when teachers are proudly boasting all over social media about the ‘profound’ conversations they had about it and how they’ll all be signing up and encouraging their girlfriends to sign up too x

      • It is sick, Gem. Somewhere along the line women turned from being ignored medically, to becoming targets for medical harassment by any yahoo with a speculum.

        When will we ever reach the middle ground???

      • We’re still ignored medically while being harassed by everybody holding a speculum. They undertest and undertreat women for heart attacks, including coronary risk factors or giving coronary stress tests – except the cholesterol test which seems to be about as low in predictive value as reading one’s horoscope from a newspaper, There are still tales of women being discharged from a hospital mid-heart attack because she is just “anxious” or even “hysterical”.

        We’re being simultaneously neglected and abused, overdiagnosed and overtreated for rare conditions, while underdiagnosed and undertreated for common conditions. And, charged out the yin-yang for it both ways.

    • This may sound harsh, but I don’t sympathise with them either. With each petition, a reason is given why the screening age will not be reduced or why annual screening will not become the norm. Do they even bl**dy read the responses for themselves or even try bothering to understand that it’s science-based and not some right-wing conspiracy to kill women.

      I feel these women – and the MPs who support them – are dangerous.

      I worry one day that more MPs in the House of Commons WILL listen to these deranged loons and implement something like this. How easy would it go from being “optional” to “mandatory”?

      Reproductive rights are on the decline in certain parts of Europe and the US. Introducing something that enables medical professionals to better monitor or “control” female sexual activity is dangerous. It is a threat to all our rights.

      As well as the invasive nature if screening and its’ false positive and negative rate, surveillance (particularly of a sexual organ) is a big reason why I am a strong advocate of informed choice for screening.

      So, although I’m being harsh, I despise these women who cannot be bothered to question the science before blindly campaigning for something so dangerous to become law. It is a step away from the Handmaid’s tale. F’ing morons.

      • I think the message needs to get out there that actually a lot of women simply don’t want this test and it’s a lost cause. They think they speak for all women when they run these campaigns and petitions, and think they will get a wave of support from women’s groups. On social media I try to put the point across that actually a lot of women have looked at the evidence and decided not to screen. Politicians keep taking up these causes thinking it’ll be a vote winner for them. I think that after all these fruitless campaigns the realisation is dawning on them that none of it works. If we keep challenging them wherever they post I think they will realise substantial numbers of women don’t want this. I once challenged a local politician in my area, and put the case across that women are not stupid, but have looked at the evidence and decided not to screen. I think he was quite taken aback. He’s left politics now.

  22. It’s a horribly oppressive system and Beth, as you know, the pressure on women in the US to have GYN exams is relentless. It just never stops. I posted before about a consult for my high blood pressure turning into an inquisition about why I wasn’t have GYN exams. You posted about experiencing pressure to have one during an appointment with respect to your type 2 diabetes. Ironically, both of these chronic conditions, high blood pressure and diabetes, are major risk factors for cardiovascular disease – which is the # 1 killer of women. But that’s not what they’re thinking about. They’re thinking that we’re female, and therefore obligated to climb into the stirrups and subject ourselves to invasive exams on demand.

    • When your doctor hassles you like that, wouldn’t it be fitting to ask him/her how their sex life is going? Then ask how much same person finds you attractive?
      Finally declare that usually you’re asked out to dinner a couple times before being asked to get naked.
      I’d love to see their reaction.

      • Yeah, I thought about asking for dinner and a movie xseveral before the proposition of intimate touching came about. Also, as I didn’t seek HIM out to penetrate me, immediate sex is usually accompanied by paying the woman something. As he was charging ME, to state (in front of hubby) that he keeps me sexually satisfied, and I don’t feel the need to hire a professional gigalo to take care of things. Yes, one problem with sex workers is how persistent they can be to get those to get their services – one reason that it’s illegal in most places.

        Call him “young man” while I’m about it.

        No, didn’t want to go there outside of fantasy.

    • Yes, indeed. The pressure to have a GYN exam is relentless. Especially in these days when they’re warning how the medical system is (going to be) overwhelmed by Covid patients, they’re STILL pushing these %%%% exams, and for what purpose? Women can’t even get the follow-on even-more invasive exams, tests, and procedures. There’s still enough medical care available to do these exams. Could it be that it’s…. recreational?

      They’re pushing this test in spite of the fact that it kills just over 4,000 women per year, heart attacks, strokes, and diabetes (directly) kill a great many more, and discouraging women from getting any treatment for them. It’s been observed that women are not-infrequently turned away from the emergency department mid-heart attack.

      • It’s ritualistic and likely recreational in some cases, but I think the main reason is that these exams and their follow-ups bring in a great deal of money. Especially today in the US with many medical practices being owned by large hospital systems. These systems are actually corporations and want to maximize profits where ever possible – and what better opportunity than in women’s health, with so many having bought into the brainwashing that these exams are essential? Colonoscopies also bring in large profits, but I don’t believe they push as hard when it comes to those because they’re not just for women – and men’s bodily autonomy is always respected far more than ours.

      • My husband has had colonscopies pushed at him at least as hard as pelvic exams are on me.

        The thing is, right now, although they’re complaining that hospitals are filled to capacity, they are also complaining that they’re going broke because they cannot do these “routine” procedures – the big ones being colonscopies, mamography, LEEP, and colposcopy. How much IS the markup on these things???

        They’re still pushing the PAP tests, although those follow-on procedures are unavailable. As few people know how prone to error PAP tests are, if women get an abnormal one, she will likely feel that she’s being doomed to certain death because she’ll have to wait a few months to get the follow-on test.

        What’s the point of the pap test if there’s nothing different that can or will be done no matter the results? My years in quality assurance states that if you are unable or unwilling to make a change depending on a test result, you’re wasting time and money doing that test. Oh yeah, I know the answer: Medicine is DIFFERENT! How, exactly? Don’t the same principles of tests and results and statistics apply?

  23. Hi ladies,
    Many ladies who have posted on the site, have mentioned that the attitude of many doctors is of being aloof,unapproachable, dismissive, disrespectful, all of which in other professions would be unacceptable. Sadly in medical settings this would appear to be the norm, Doctors it would seem have the notion that their self importance , arrogance and egotistical attitude is the road to take, this view may seem to be a little harsh , but in the news yesterday a surgeon called Simon bramhall it was revealed is to face further charges in relation to incidents in which he autographed internal organs of his patients with a piece of equipment called an argon beam coagulator ( a type of laser) this came to light when a follow up operation by another surgeon to find out the cause of an infection, which was deemed to be caused by the initials burnt into the liver , an inquiry went underway, resulting in Bramhall resigning, it also led to a court case where he was fined £10,000 and told to complete 120 hours of community service. He is now currently working as an NHS consultant in Herefordshire, it was determined by the GMC that because of his court conviction and public awareness of the case that their initial “punishment”of 5 months suspension would be reviewed, as during the court case it was revealed this was not an isolated instance by Bramhall . To me this is a shocking revelation and so deserving of our contempt and mistrust , and if you thought that this is an isolated incident you would be sadly mistaken.
    ( check out two more of these despicable creatures dr Allan zarkin and dr Michael guiler ) and how many more that have no idea that they have been autographed , once they have been stitched up, mistrust seems to me to be well deserved.
    Hugs Jules xx.

    • Hi Jules,

      This is the kind of thing that makes me furious. I’ve had plenty of experience dealing with authorities (companies, governments, whatever) who like to treat everything you tell them as a lie or nothing to worry about. It’s why horriffic things like this keep happening and keep on going.

      And if doctors are somnehow held to account, the punishment or deterent they get is so low, I don’t know whay they bothered.

      I made a complaint here about a cardiologist who said he wouldn’t see me unless I let him do a breast exam. I said no breast exam, I’m not coming to see you about a breast complaint, obviously! He said, I’m not seeing you then. They said he can ask for whatever he wants, as long as he sees fit to ask for it. If that doesn’t tell you that doctors are allowed to treat women badly, I don’t know what does. How many other women went to him and felt humiliated or belittled when he forced them to accept a breast exam?

      We see this kind of thing over and over. Doctors can mistreat women (and men) however they want, but its takes years of ramming your head against a brick wall with the authorities and the government to get anything done about it, if you ever can.

      We’ve seen so many cases of doctors who are sadistic, incompetent, butchers with what they do to women, and despite scores of women making complaints, they were all dismissed and told to shut up, don’t cause a fuss.

      I think in the ‘Butcher of Bega’ case, despite 35 women providing first-hand evidence of what he did, it took decades for anyone in authority to stop him – because, you know, the word of women means nothing. The health authorities here have a shocking record of moving doctors around who assault or mutilate women, to a different hospital, to try and avoid dealing with it.

      • Hi oz,
        So glad you stuck to your guns and denied that pervert his little bit of pleasure, unfortunately not all women have the conviction to do this and give in to pressure and demands. And until more women call them out on their demands sadly this will continue,women’s exams have a highly sexual nature to them and this will undoubtedly draw in unsavoury characters into the profession, so if nobody else will protect us it is down to ourselves.
        Hugs Jules x

  24. Hi ladies! New post on the PHE screening blog, Angela Raffle on improvements to screening and how the death rate from CC did not miraculously go down after high numbers were screened( or bullied into it) and how it was a bit like intervening in healthy ppls lives when they weren’t sick?

    • I’ve just read it and am a bit confused. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the overall gist but in one breath she’s saying that there have been tremendous improvements to the programme but on the other that attempts to distort the science and oversell the benefits without addressing the harms remain ever present. I certainly haven’t seen any improvement. Ever since I was 20, I’ve been pressured at more or less every GP appointment to not be silly and ‘just do it’. The only improvement I’ve seen is the change to the title of the ‘Helping you decide booklet’ and the addition of one tiny line at the end about overtreatment and risks to pregnancy. I hope now they’ve taken out the line ‘it’s best to have the test’ but it was in there until very recently. Perhaps I’ve misunderstood the point she is making though.

      • Screening – and particularly these programmes – involve too many vested interests, and the idea of ‘catching it early’ has almost become a religious belief. Any medic who criticises these programmes is risking their reputation and potentially their career.
        For instance, Michael Baum, the breast cancer expert, was treated like a heretic when he expressed concerns about breast screening and the manner in which women were being coerced into it.
        Angela Raffle has always had doubts about the benefits of screening, so my guess here is that she’s simply protecting herself from being attacked by the pro-screening lobby.
        There have been many improvements over the years, but only in the clinical sense. And it’s not really something to be bragged about, since the test and the programme never were of such a poor standard in the first place.

        So I think Angela is having to tread very carefully here, and while this may not seem very helpful, I think it’s far better to have a quiet dissenter working in the medical field than have her condemn the programme outright and be ostracised for it. Would be all too easy, then, for her work to be dismissed by those vested interests.

      • https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/317336

        I wonder if Angela Raffle was asked to write the screening blog because of this petition which was recently debated in UK parliament? Yep, those politicians are still representing misinformed members of the public who’ve experienced the loss of a family member, entirely due, they believe, to not enough screening. These people just don’t get it, and neither do the politicians. When cornered that not all women may want this screening, these campaigners usually back down, and say they didn’t mean all women had to, but the wording in their campaigns always uses those words, “need” “must” “should”. And also, what is it about them wanting a law? Why should it be a law to have annual screening, or any screening at all for that matter? PHE must support Angela Raffle in what she says, and make it much clearer that screening has limited effectiveness, but they’re still dishing out all that whitewashing about it saving 5,000 lives, and a missed smear test could cost you your life. It is these pro-screening bodies which cause families so much distress by their dishonesty about the test.

      • https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2021/07/30/25-years-on-how-the-uk-nsc-has-transformed-screening-for-the-better/

        My opinion is that Angela Raffle didn’t write this title. It doesn’t match or give a true flavour of the body of the text. She was asked to write for them and wrote the balanced article she did, but PHE Screening have sensationalised it with their own headlines in a journalistic style. I’ve noticed this before with PHE’s flagship paper by Peto entitled “How the UK Cervical Screening Programme has prevented an epidemic of cervical cancer in the UK”. This was the paper which claimed 5,000 lives are saved every year and is widely quoted by the programme. If you read the paper it clearly says it is all pure speculation, and the paper was widely criticised by others. I think these authors get asked to write a paper to justify government policy. They write an honest account, take the money, but it’s spun by government departments to push policy through.

  25. Hi kat,
    It makes interesting reading , you simply cannot find fault with anything she says , I think the difference between dr A . Raffle and the majority in the profession is that she has integrity, a trait often lacking in women’s care by most.

    • Thank you for sharing and for the explanation. Yes, it has become like a religion and I have seen Margaret McCartney, Michael Baum and Angela Raffles dismissed as ‘dangerous extremists’ by screening fanatics, which is somewhat ironic. And, I know from bitter experience that the medical field also contains very militant screening advocates – hardly surprising due to the financial incentives. But also, I think a lot of people in the medical field are not educated on the risks and benefits of screening either, nor familiarised with the concept of informed choice and genuinely believe that they are acting the best interests of the patient. I’ve spoken to nurses who have said they are just taught how to carry it out and about the benefits of early detection – and that’s it.

      • Gem, I think this is a contributary factor in keeping women so ignorant about this test. The whole thing carefully designed so women never have any contact with a knowledgeable person, who might tell them the truth. All this rubbish about how they are always available chat about your doubts and concerns, but really you will never come into contact with anyone who has anything but the most simplistic knowledge of how it all works. And they call that “informed consent”!

      • I think a lot of them enjoy the control too, even female healthcare practitioners.

        I hear of condescending and judgemental attitudes to female patients in particular, across the healthcare spectrum, but particularly in reproductive healthcare, such as maternity and postnatal services. How many women are told to “pull themselves together” after a muscarriage or stillbirth, or have their postnatal depression dismissed?

        Reminds me of the attitudes of the nuns in the Magdalene Sisters film.

  26. Gem your comments struck a chord with me, my daughter was recently “invited” for her 1 st smear, she was 25 in May but a move to Wales and a new practice and then she changed practice again so she fell through the cracks! Anyway she decided not to go, and has just been re “invited “….welcome to the rest of her life…..!! Unless she opts out I guess…

  27. Thanks Annette! She’ll definitely be ruder than me if ever she goes to discuss, say, her thyroid. And her doctor begins to chat about smears and her lack of one….!!

  28. Hi kat,
    When they conduct polls, and research why uptake of the target population falls short in screening it always mentions black and ethnic minority groups the younger generation or females that were previously compliant but now decline, it could be that the information about the test is actually “getting out”I really think they are on the ropes now and will only have self testing to fall back on so now expect a push in that direction to keep themselves in a job, younger woman today are far more savvy than previous generations and less likely to fall for the crap they dish out. Viva la revolution.
    Love Annette xx.

    • Using minorities as propaganda cannon fodder isn’t new. As if what happens to them spells out life for the rest of us? Shouldn’t but often does.
      Years ago where we live low income health clinics would always claim to have cut CC 75%… Blah blah.
      Funny but if there were such an epidemic it would have been the leading bleeding story on 5pm news.
      Young women are taught by liberal institutions to question everything religious or conservative. Yet something so important like the fake facts on CC and pap are always ignored.
      Until we have an unconditional surrender re pap our jobs will never end. Educate, question, publicize what a 50% efficacy test leads to.
      Needless colposcopy, pain, and mutilating LEEP’s etc.

  29. Hi ladies,
    I’ve been looking for anything that may be of interest to us, and came across a report published on 26 nov 2020 by the national official statistics uk ,in 2018-19 females referred to colposcopy totalled
    182,304 , this figure rises 5.1% to
    191,563 in 2019-20 . During the exam it was determined that45% needed no intervention a number that amounted to 86,203, the remainder 105,359 underwent treatments such as biopsy, cone biopsy, LEEP, and cold knife incision, using their inflated figure of 5,000 lives saved every year , why did they treat the other 100,000,for practice maybe, if this isn’t over treatment i don’t know what is.
    Hugs Jules x.

    • My gosh excellent data Jules!!
      I’ve said pap is 50% efficacy. This shows a correlation.
      5000 lives saved of nearly 200k scraped and chomped (biopsy colposcopy).
      That’s 2%; right?
      That is just bizarre.
      Thanks!

  30. Hi cat&mouse,
    Don’t forget that by using their figure of 5,000 it throws everything out, by using a more realistic number of 3,200 ( another number used by some of them ) and using the number given by national statistics, the actual % is 3.038.
    I think that they give varying figures to cause confusion and make it more difficult for women to understand and hope they get away with it. (But not this f—-ing time ).
    Hugs Jules x.

    • We keep a stack of 15 sheets of paper re bad woman care stories which we share with others.
      Included are Trovagene results, the disclosure that pap has shit accuracy, LEEP long term complications, problems with surgery in teaching hospitals, and this data will be included.
      Always fun to see doctors and nurses choke on their words trying to debunk.

  31. Hi cat & mouse,
    I’ve no doubt, they would suddenly become very busy and not have the time to discuss it there and then, but it would be nice to see the expression on their faces when you hit them with the stats.
    Hugs Jules x.

  32. Hi ladies,
    I’ve been abandoned tonight as helper has gone over to a friend from work to help her organise her upcoming wedding ( god help her).so being left to my own devices I’ve been doing a little more digging and came across a report on cervical cancer by cancer research uk, which was broadcast by itv news on 22 jan 2020, the charity warned of a steep rise in cervical cancer in the age group of 25-29 year olds and stated that there had been a 54% rise in cases ( holy shit I’m booking my smear first thing Monday morning) this figure is absolutely staggering so I decided to look into it, and this is a tactic we use at work sometimes, when the figures you need just don’t work, we change the number to a percentage to make it work in our favour to make it look higher or lower, the 54% mentioned is frightening to some, who will no doubt rush to the nearest doctor , but hold on let’s just take a minute and look at the actual figures and comparison, they forgot to mention they are going back to the years 2004-2006 and then fast forwarding to 2015-2017 .
    In 2004 -2006 instances were 12 per 100,000, and in 2015 – 2017 instances were 18.5 per 100,000, this frightening 54% increase
    equates to just an additional 6.5 per 100,000, so upon reflection , I don’t think bother booking Monday .
    Hugs Jules x.

  33. Apologies ladies,
    The dates 2004-2006 are incorrect and should be changed to 2018-2019 , in the earlier posting sorry about that. The years 2004 and2006 are from a different part of the study, but the figures and percentages are correct.
    Hugs Jules x.

  34. Hi all,

    What should one do to educate their daughters? Has anyone had good experiences in educating their girls about these issues?

    I have a Chinese birth chart which lets me avoid having girls, but I don’t want to do that.

  35. Hi Fiona,
    What worked for us , was that mom was always open and honest with us whatever questions we asked, this led to trust and we eventually became comfortable asking her just about anything knowing she would only try to help or advise.
    Hugs Jules x.

  36. Hi ladies,
    I think you may have to sit down for this one girls, looking at the numbers in my last comment , I thought they looked shockingly high so I tried to find a comparison between other countries to see if it was just the uk, and came across a report in the journal of clinical oncology ( sorry no date) under the title multiple biopsies and detection of cervical cancer precursors at colposcopy. In the introduction they say a singular biopsy during the colposcopy could miss between 30 and 50 % of disease, so they recommend taking up to 4 biopsy samples including from normal looking tissue , right so now we get to the figures they say that approximately 14,400 women will be diagnosed with cervical cancer in the USA per year and of that number 4,300 will prove fatal , women are referred to colposcopy after an abnormal smear and the approximate referral number
    ( their estimate) 3 MILLION. How freaking inaccurate are the smears over there, ladies of the USA for you’re own safety stay away from these people.
    Hugs jules x.

  37. Just came across this excellent letter from Dr. Margaret McCartney, and the predictable response, which completely overlooks the fact that women are simply not equipped to make informed choices. Of course women want to attend (in spite of the fact that many struggle with the awful nature of the procedure) when the public health messaging and info from their GP is that ‘it’s a no brainer that can save your life and you’d be stupid to pass it up’! https://www.researchgate.net/publication/42806424_Letters_to_the_editor_Some_women_may_not_want_cervical_screening
    I gritted my teeth and did it as a younger woman, in spite of how traumatising it was, because my GP insisted on it, shamed me, and put the fear of god into me. It pains me to this very day that I was bullied and harassed into that position, presumably whilst paying for her holiday via the incentive payment she would have received.

  38. Another missed opportunity to explain that screening is for people with no symptoms, and that for people who have symptoms which could be cancer, an appointment with a doctor and specialist referral is still available in the usual timescales. A clear description of the symptoms of breast cancer would also help, but that’s all missing from this article, which just tells women they’ll drop dead without screening. Time they treated women like adults and informed them properly.

      • That’s the problem with the computerised system. Go to a GP and up it pops on your personalised record. He wouldn’t have known or recommended it had it not popped up on the screen. Unfortunately, women know little about how the system works or how to stop it. Doesn’t he mean it’s best for him, as he’s the one getting the incentive payment? Once I’d filled out the form to get off the system in 2003, I never once had a GP ask me about it, nor ask why I hadn’t had one in years. Clearly a message pops up whenever the record is accessed for any other purpose. The old NHS cervical screening recall system is being replaced with an entirely new system this autumn so it will be interesting to see how this new surveillance system abuses our human rights this time.

      • Yes Ada, that computerised system is a bugger. Go to the GP about anything and you’ll be harassed and browbeaten often at the expense of talking about the issues you went there with in the first place. I didn’t know they were changing the system but I have no doubt it will be for the same ends.

      • I opted out in 2015 and was harassed a couple times after that about smear tests, I haven’t been asked since and I haven’t had a letter from surgery reminding me I am opted out and would I like to reconsider as some surgeries do! My last ever smear would be in 2025 when I’ll be 61! I hope this new system doesn’t see me harassed again…
        I watched the clip, that poor woman’s body language was quite definitely “I don’t want a smear thank you it’s been 5 years! Doctors saying you need every 3 years make appt on way out was beyond disgusting! She may have verrucas on her feet but hey she’s just a vagina!

      • I thought the way that doctor in the youtube clip spoke to the woman was appalling. His whole manner implied it wasn’t really a choice. I am disgusted they are still speaking to women like that. It just shows old habits have not gone away. That woman should complain but no doubt she won’t. No doctor would get away with that anymore with me.

        I hope everyone here is ok. I’ve not posted for a while but keep up to date with the comments.

        Linda

  39. I seem to remember on phe blog a while back, an article where the screening service talk about women removing themselves from screening and say lots do by not responding to their “invitations “ and by not booking appointments, wishful thinking with the computer records and doctors browbeating women at appointments for verrucas….

  40. Can a woman be refused life insurance for not having pap tests on her medical records? I know some insurance policy requires medical tests or medical reports. Does it include cancer screening?

  41. Hi ladies, That gp urging that women to get a smear when she went in for a verruca is horrid,what she ought to said was I’m so glad you mentioned that, it has just reminded me to ask for an opt out form, now go fetch one bitch.
    Love Annette x.

  42. Hi ladies, After watching that episode of gp’s behind closed doors it seems the lady got off quite lightly, you can’t help thinking if she had been about 25-26 blond with legs up to her armpits that the “encouragement”would have been a little more persuasive, or it may of been because the consult had a tv crew there and the doc didn’t want to show what it’s really like when you get cornered and coercion happens in a exam room.
    Love Annette x.

  43. Hi ladies,
    Helper showed this to me when she got in from work tonight, how the hell he got to a smear test via a verucca
    ( I know it was the screen prompt) but I nearly wet myself laughing they really are detestable, it’s a wonder he didn’t go into a scientific rant about how a verucca is part of the wart family and that because of that she must have hpv so it’s imperative she drops her pants and consents to a smear there and then or she could die before she makes it home, if it wasn’t so serious and cruel it would be hilarious .
    Hugs Jules x.

    • Jules, I laughed at your comment but seriously too, it’s a wonder he DIDNT say that they will try anything! I have been harassed about smears during a migraine meds review.. maybe stray cancer cells are causing headaches?!

  44. Hi all,

    Australia here – GPs always ask new patients when their last pap was.
    Can women refuse to answer? i.e. “I decline to answer that question”.
    I don’t want to give them any room to coerce me.

    • Hi Fiona,
      Unless the problem you are there for is connected to your periods you are perfectly within your rights to decline any questions or treatment offered this is you’re legal right.
      Hugs Jules x.

      • Jules, a doctor should never push a symptomatic patient into having a Pap test even if their issues are related to their reproductive organs. The test is too inaccurate to be used as a diagnostic tool. Any doctor who still insists on a Pap to ‘rule out cancer’ is either woefully ignorant as to the limitations of the test, or is simply chasing targets. Here in the UK there is a clinical pathway for investigating reproductive symptoms, a Pap is not recommended – it’s shocking that so many within the medical profession are still not following these guidelines.

        And Fiona, yes, I would refuse to answer – screening is not mandatory, I believe you can opt out of the programme in Australia, as I’ve done here in the UK . Your GP has no right to demand information on your screening history. Amazing how dictatorial the so-called ‘caring’ profession becomes when financial incentives are involved – it seems testing an under-screened woman earns them $35 (per test).

      • Hey Kate, thanks! And Jules.
        I did feel a little ?? with Jules’ comment, but all cleared up now.
        Funnily enough, I actually work in health, but on the workforce management side, so nowadays meeting GPs don’t faze me as much.

        There was only ever one time when I was concerned about a physical cut/sensitivity there that I needed to see a female GP about, and she was patient-centered, and I healed later in time. I did lie about having had a pap though lol – “oh yes, it was 12 months ago”, even though I also knew my cut had nothing to do with cancer. Another time turned out to be thrush, I was young at 18, and it was my first ever GP visit as an adult, and I wasn’t chased about a pap at all.

        There was another (amongst a few) who had harrassed me a hell of a lot, and I complained about her, alongside the others. She did give me a tip – some demographics e.g. Middle Eastern do not tend to do this test (and the western docs are pushing for it sigh). So nowadays I visit GPs in my local area of Western Sydney. Joy! One of them had actually said the sensible (shock) thing: “If you don’t want it, don’t have it”.

  45. Hi Fiona,
    Sorry if I confused you, what I ment to say was you may have to give some personal info to be helped, but no way was I condoning any invasive exam, sorry for any misunderstanding
    Hugs Jules x.

  46. Hi ladies, Sad news I’m afraid
    Sarah Harding of girls aloud has passed away from breast cancer today, let’s hope they leave the poor girl to rest in peace and the charities don’t try to cash in on her, bringing her into every fund raising opportunity they can.
    Annette x.

  47. Hi ladies,
    I can’t believe I’ve actually missed this, as I always keep an eye out for anything new, but this seems to of flashed past the old radar undetected this was announced on sky news on Monday 26 July ,from the end of July two types of contraceptive pill will be available to buy over the counter one is lovima 75 mg , the other Hana 75 mg ., both without prescription although the pharmacist will ask a couple of questions such as if you are on any other meds etc,and it’s the same process if you order online, the cost is approximately £22.00 for 3 months supply, I’ve double checked and they are being made widely available ie boots, Asda , Lloyds Tesco, chemists bloody everywhere, this simply has to put another nail in the coffin for smears, as the age old argument of “I can’t prescribe your pills without a Pap test” has just gone completely out of the window and former victims will just say well fuck you ill just go and buy some, looks like a new day is dawning and about time to it’s only 40-50years late
    Hugs Jules x.

  48. Hi ladies,
    Call it whatever you like, some would describe it as a sixth sense, others a women’s intuition, it could even be a mixture of both , but when something doesn’t seem right to me, it bugs me till I figure it out. The new information that the mini pill is now available on-line or over the counter and a far greater number of female medical students opting to become gynocologists and oncologists with fewer males taking up this option because of female patients preference of gender for intimate exams and care, the enforcement of chaperones, and the fact that they have had to let it be known about informed choice, all spell out that this could be the decline of the male in this profession, the only ones who won’t want to relinquish “ their power” will be the die hard perverts who desperately need their fix of pussy, they may have won some battles but we are winning the war, so ladies please take a bow this is partially down to you and the other groups that have made a dedicated and committed effort to end this injustice.
    Hugs , love and great admiration xx.

  49. Hi ladies, Saw the first advert for the Hana mini pill on the tv today, absolutely brill, and seeing that upto one million four hundred thousand women in the uk take it, how many will now feel a higher level of comfort and confidence from coercion in the doctors room. Love Annette xx.

  50. Ugh, who’s seen the latest Jo’s Trust initiative to facilitate time off to attend screening and ‘encourage conversations about gynaecological health in the workplace’. I’ve had that happen before, women interrogating each other about smear tests in the staff room and deriding the ‘stupid’ women who don’t get it done. Supported wholeheartedly by the RCOG. In some better news, at least that awful man seems to have gone quieter and has practically zero engagement with his social media.

    • How dare they?!

      I don’t want to discuss anything like that or have to justify my decisions for not attending (although I bl**dy will) in front of male colleagues!!

      Why do these health organisations and feminazis encourage us to discuss everything??

    • I think JT have completely lost their minds sharing and endorsing this article, which conflates cervical with vaginal cancer (and seemingly all of the other gynaecological cancers), abnormal cells with cancer, implies a hereditary cause for cervical cancer and advocates for lowering the age of screening. Obviously I feel for the woman and her mother, but this article is appallingly written and full of misinformation. I guess perhaps the new CEO seems like she’s happy to go down the misinformation and scaremongering route, given that her maiden speech included her talking about how she had had a ‘near miss’ with cervical cancer because she had some cell changes. Is there no ethical requirement for charities to promote fact-based information?! I suppose not, given the ‘charity’ that has recently set up which has as its stated aim to lower the screening age – against all medical evidence and recommendations. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9993793/Love-Island-star-Shannon-Singh-reveals-checked-THREE-times-cancer.html

      • I stand corrected on the conflation between cervical and vaginal cancer. On a third reading, I got the point they were making. It’s just not very clearly written and could cause a lot of confusion. However, there is no excuse for posting this without any kind of explanation of why the age is 25 and the harms that can result from screening in the younger demographic.

      • The What If’ers are back again. Goosestepping with the You Never Knowers, sponsored by the Do Gooders Group.
        All this debate could and would end quickly, if, freedoms and free markets were respected. Yes, freedom of choice.
        End pap scrape crap. Offer the Delphi Screener and or convince Trovagene to once again screen urine for hpv.
        These tearjerker sagas have one purpose which they do accomplish well.
        Stoking up the fear mongers.

  51. Gem left a comment , but as replies are moderated I doubt it’ll get through! If she’s had 3 treatments already she’s following the late Ms Goody who had her first cells burnt off at 15 or 16….

    • Nope, they seem to have censored it! No surprises there. God forbid anyone should deviate from the standard hysteria. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next step is to call for vaginal biopsies if HPV is found. Like I’ve said, I have every sympathy for this woman and her mum, but this is very irresponsible journalism. Well, it’s probably written by someone who hasn’t got a clue about the risks of screening in general and especially in younger women. And why would they? It’s not like leading cervical cancer charities or the medical profession make that clear and promote informed consent.

      • I’ve just commented as well but it’s awaiting moderation ie. probably won’t get through.

        I wrote “This article is a garbled mess, she’s not even clear about which gynae cancer it was. Where’s her evidence for lowering the age? Absolutely nuts anyone can speak about their alleged experience and never gets picked up on the facts.”

      • We’ll never know the other factors involved. How did it get spread?
        Diet, genetic or induced inflammation, or if it’s one wrong diagnosis gone haywire.
        And how if it’s legit did the medical experts allow it “mushroom” out of control.

    • This is from the ‘time to test initiative’, some suggested measures to implement:

      Put up posters which we have provided in the Google drive
      • Hold an awareness session about cervical screening, or speak about it in a
      team meeting
      • Join in with our campaign weeks – Cervical Cancer Prevention Week in
      January, and Cervical Screening Awareness Week in June. We will be in
      touch nearer the time
      • Take part in Steps for Jo’s as a staff team
      • Host events with your staff
      • Donate proceeds from a selected product

      i.e. your whole work culture could essentially be based around cervical screening! There are even logos to download to put on emails etc. I can’t imagine how this would feel for anyone who doesn’t wish to have the test, finds the test and discussions thereof upsetting or triggering, or perhaps has had the screening and suffered trauma/complications due to lletz or went on to develop cc anyway etc. etc. to be confronted with this constantly and the judgemental discussion that would doubtless follow. I’d certainly struggle with it. It’s like being in a cult! I remember the tiny flowery knickers that kept on finding their way into my workplace’s toilets telling women to just get over themselves and get it done because ‘they’ve seen it all before’ (it was all I could do not to rip them down and stamp on them!). And, the conversations in the staffroom of women sharing triggering war stories of awful screening experiences, followed, paradoxically, by castigating ‘stupid’ women who neglect themselves and risk leaving their children motherless. I’m not against sending out an email to staff letting them know they will be granted time off for screening should they wish to take it up, but I think it should stop there. Ordinarily, I’d say I wouldn’t be against a one-off donation collection or event for those who wish to participate, but not for this organisation.

      • Omg an AWARENESS campaign what a BRILLIANT idea!!! Not as if it’s been tried before…
        Seriously Gem you’re spot on! It’s not as if workplaces promote cholesterol testing or anything but cervical cancer is a whole new ballgame!
        In our place. A school, we would be expected to attend a routine smear in our own time or holidays, we wouldn’t be granted it off in term unless it was a colposcopy or actually treatment! We get time off for mammograms coz that’s pre booked! I think women are really judged up of smears right left and centre…..

      • I fully support employees being able to take time for health appointments whatever they are but I don’t believe time off is a true barrier to attending smears. Not for most anyway.

        If people are that bothered they’ll generally find a way to do something. Take leave, take a sick day, make up a story, go before work etc. I completely believe these are excuses people give in surveys. There’s this odd that big brother’s watching them and they’ll be some bizarre recourse for saying you don’t want to go.

        The fact is, some women don’t make time for them because deep down they don’t want to go!

      • They must be really worried about the screening figures if they are resorting to this.

        I can’t be asked with woman-to-woman tittle tattle in the office as it is. This is pushing things too far.

        What they are doing is actively trying desperately to seek out the non-screeners or “defaulters” by using compliant women to as a shaming tactic.

        This is another form of surveillance, getting other women to seek us out, because they have obviously failed to do so.

        I don’t welcome this intrusion into my workspace. I also find the creeping authoritarianism of this, potentially dangerous.

        Many women now work from home, and many have been told to continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

        I expect most women will just humour their colleagues, change the subject or tell them to mind their own business, in which case it might cause a lot of clusterf***s.

  52. Hi ladies, This is not too dissimilar to the Salem witch trials of 1692, I hope I don’t get any pressure to screen off work colleagues or I will have to find my cauldron and potions out and put the evil eye on them. Or I could just go to the Human Resources rep and claim harassment or victimisation by them either is fine by me. Love to all.

  53. New post over on PHE blog, HPValidate, where some venues will offer women the chance to self test for HPV before they go on to have the speculum smear!!

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