This post has been created to provide an additional forum for discussion, and is a continuation of the old Blogcritics’ Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion. The original Blogcritics Unnecessary Pap Smears discussion had more than 10,000 comments, but the comments were deleted following changes to the Blogcritics’ site.
Fortunately, the comments from Blogcritics have since been recovered and are preserved here: http://unnecessarypapsmears.wordpress.com/2013/07/12/over-10000-lost-comments-on-unnecessary-pap-smears-find-a-home/ This post also provides a ‘part three’ continuation of the ‘part two’ discussion forum that exists on this site: https://forwomenseyesonly.com/2013/09/22/discussion-forum/
Thank you Alex for suggesting the addition of an open forum devoted to discussion on this blog.
forwomenseyesonly 
And as ever please check the daily fail….
My god, I just looked and it seems like they’re running 2 or 3 articles on it at the moment. They’re obsessed.
This Morning on ITV are running a campaign “Click here to face your Smear”. It appears the rebranding juggernaut has hit the buffers already. It’s only day one.
Speaking of rebranding, only today Rob Music (vomit) has put out a tweet saying he’s weighing up the future of the smearforsmear campaign based on the fact everyone’s pushing for ‘cervical screening’ to be used.
Wouldn’t that be a great excuse for him to wind up his failing campaign AND save face?
If they want to re-brand, one word they could change is “attendance” and variations on it. “Attendance” brings to mind school, something you’re supposed to go to. In the UK there are “attendance officers” who check up on children who regularly miss school. It implies you’re doing something wrong if you don’t “attend”.
I also saw a woman on the BBC news (may have been the doctor, which makes it even worse) saying it’s a preventable cancer. It was very much with the tone that if you only went for screening, then you wouldn’t ever develop it. What a nice thing for women who HAVE had regular smears and still developed CC to have to hear. Or the women who chose to screen but delayed it for one reason or another. They’ll now have this horrible thought that their delay allowed time for the cells to become cancerous.
In fact, that tone of “it’s preventable if YOU screen” could put people off going to the doctor with symptoms. They could be worried they’re going to be treated as if it’s their fault.
Just all-round dreadful reporting of this today. The ad campaign itself is patronising and one-sided. Zero mention of choice, consent, risks, and what the relative benefit is.
On Twitter I saw a waxing salon giving free bikini waxes to women who prove they attended a smear appointment. I have no words… well except that surely the Advertising Standards Agency/Trading Standards can’t condone a business offering a free gift in return for a *medical procedure*.
I agree. They also need to rethink their “invitations.” An invitation is something optional which you can accept or decline as you wish.
Cervical screening “invitations” just assume you’ll be attending. That’s a summons in my book. All they need to do is add a ‘thanks but no thanks’ slip but they won’t. Why? They can’t continue to harass you if you’ve done that.
It’s not as bad a breast screening making an appt for you but it’s similar.
How can informed consent and choice be respected if the starting point is an assumption you’ll attend? That’s coercion.
Today I saw the revolting Dr Ellie share a Tweet saying “It only takes about five minutes, and you have to go once every three or five years depending on your age.”
Have to? Have to? I tagged the GMC in it mentioning the ethical violation. They won’t do anything but with the program on its last legs and propaganda increasingly desperate, I’m of the belief that every bit of noise helps.
Exactly.
A female relative of mine developed breast cancer thirty years after she stopped getting mammograms due to her religion. She suspected that she had it a few weeks before but she delayed going to the doctor because she knew that she would be bombarded with questions and blaming.
Also, I find it very telling that they don’t put the same pressure on women who are not “attractive” by society’s standards (overweight, older, physically handicapped, etc.). Nevertheless, they claim that after 60, there is no risk of cervical cancer. Why not? Wouldn’t the risk rise with age due to more partners or more time for the virus to do damage?
They simply don’t feel aroused looking at a naked 60+ woman… It’s all about then.
I had a doctor not take no for an answer, making it as bad as a really bad date from high school plus a pushy used car salesman. I’m overweight, older, and physically handicapped – hardly “attractive” by ordinary standards. It didn’t help me this time. 😦
Exactly, Beth. If anything, I think older women may be even more vulnerable in a gynecologist’s office than younger women because they are more likely to be diagnosed with abnormalities such as fibroid tumors. One of the tricks gyns use to get women to submit to hysterectomies is to say a fibroid is growing very fast and could be cancerous, which is seldom the case but gets the woman into the operating room. In addition, older women often have abnormal pap smears caused by hormonal changes during menopause, which gets them on that medical merry-go-round of more testing. Gynecologists are surgeons – that is what they are trained to do, and that’s what they want to do – surgery. And many of them are not above using tactics like a used car salesman to get a woman to go along with it.
Judy,
The doctor in question was a GP who I was seeing for continued care for hypothyroid and diabetes – and he spent the whole visit on pap scares. I know the best way to handle gyn offices – STAY OUT OF THEM!
What doctors have to sell is FEAR. If they’re not getting enough “business” from treatment for actual diseases, injuries, and disorders, just scare someone into wanting more.
….And people wonder why the US has an “overuse” problem with medical care.
bethkz, do you mind me asking? What was his response when you declined? How did you stand up for yourself in that situation?
Kleigh,
This doctor was wearing a surgical mask that day, explaining when he entered the room that he had a cold.
He asked the reason I was there, and I responded “follow-up on my diabetes and hypothyroid care and treatment.” He looked at the paperwork, and asked, “So, when was your last pap?” I had intentionally left that blank. “I stopped having those years ago.” He pushed for “How long?”, to which I eventually responded, “20 years”. He got excited then, and said, “Oh, you need one RIGHT AWAY THEN!” I declined. Then, “Why, might I ask?”
I said that this was a rare cancer, which just over 12,000 women in the US were diagnosed with last year, and just over 4,000 died. That ratio of approximately 3:1 has remained stubbornly constant for decades, in spite of advances in cancer treatment, whereas the survivability of other cancers has increased.
He stated that EVERYONE who has a cervix needs to have a pap test. “That’s no longer the standard of care, according to the ACOG. No one under 30, and women over 60 or 65, nor women who have terminal conditions should have a pap test.”
We went around and around, including the typical propaganda, that it’s a “Leading cause of women’s cancer deaths.”, which I repeated the statistics. “Where are you reading this stuff? Blogs on the Internet?” I said, “Yes, I’m reading studies from the US Preventive Task Force, the ACOG, studies from other first-world governments, reputable universities, and so on. I’ve got a scientific degree, I can read a scientific paper, evaluate the quality of the information, look at conflicts of interest and funding sources.”
He said he could not adequately care for me if I refused this test. What? You’re going to refuse to treat conditions which are diagnosed by lab tests by several doctors in deference to an optional screening test for a rare cancer, which I am very unlikely to have?” I got up. He said, “No, no. I never said that I would not refill your prescriptions! I recommend that you have these (recommended blood tests to evaluate treatment for the conditions I came in about).” I got the blood tests at the lab.
On Friday of that week he came back with the test results, amazed that they indicated that I was taking good care of my diabetes. He recommended that I continue on the medications, doses, and diet I was on. He ended the call by calling me “My Dear”, and hung up.
This was beyond creepy! A man I’d just met, whose face I had not seen, who tried for at least a half hour to talk me into allowing him to finger me, is now using terms of endearment! I thought about it over the weekend. As, by now (and since), I’ve been obsessing about the situation, I looked at more data and blogs where I can talk to others – including becoming active again on this one. I may have PTSD, and obsessing is part of the condition, but I’ve learned to do that productively and rationally.
On Monday, I called the office to talk to him, “Can I ask what this is about?” I gave a vague response that it was about my recent visit. He called back in less than an hour.
When he called back, I started talking to him about Informed Consent, that the existence of the legal right Informed Consent implies the legal right to refuse to give that consent – and he was not accepting that refusal and that coercion precludes consent. Then, pointed out that I am a survivor of rape – including rape by a medical professional in a hospital, and a situation where a doctor insisted on pelvic exams every week! That doctor is long dead, and by the time I realized it was medicalized sexual abuse, it was too late to do anything about it. We are trained to trust doctors, and that one violated my trust.
After that, his voice was indicating that he was a bit nervous. “I wouldn’t have forced you.” I explained that coercion is not necessarily physical force. I had a choice – I could forgo my treatments or give in to the test was the implied choice. It’s much like a robber putting a knife to someone’s throat giving them the choice of “your money or your life”. Diabetes is the cause of death of more than 30,000 people per year. Now, dying of diabetes issues is not my preferred form of death, but I’d take it if I needed to. The alternative of dealing with the aftermath of such an examination would not be acceptable to me. The issue has led me, as well as thousands of others with similar experiences to avoid medical care altogether. And, yes, I’ve had YEARS of therapy in dealing with the abuses in the past. “Do you know what it’s called when someone penetrates the genitalia, mouth, or any organ of excrement with an object against their consent?” “Ummm…. Rape?” (I got him to use the “r word” to describe the situation, rather than me.)
By now, his voice was shaking. “You know, you could file a complaint with the clinic. I didn’t force you.” I told him “I know. I could also file a complaint with the State Licensing board. Had you forced me, my next stop would have been to file a complaint with the police. I had a witness in the room. I’ve thought about this a lot over the weekend, and decided that you were probably trying to be the best physician you can be, and decided to use this to educate you rather than ruin your career before it gets started.”
I reminded him of the problems that occurred in my last pap in 1998. After that, I learned of the rarity of CC, that many paps are done to women who have been led to believe that CC is a “leading cause of death”, that coercion by deception precludes informed consent, and know how much it’s contributing to the overuse of the medical system, including overdiagnosis and overtreatment, costing the US economy billions, plus an untold amount of human suffering.
He said, (voice still shaky) said, “Thank you for your call, and bringing all of this to my attention. I’m going to think about how I deal with similar issues in my practice.”
Then I said that, “After all that, ending the call with “My Dear” implies and imposes an intimacy which is not there, is unprofessional, and alone it can be a form of sexual harassment.” His response, “(Swallow) I didn’t think about that.”
Sorry this is so long.
I saw the suggestion that women who don’t want to screen should fill out a form giving their reasons and that should be the end of it. This was from someone in favour of respecting the opt-out and not doing “call and re-call”.
While I don’t agree that giving a reason should be necessary (unless it’s used to truly understand why women don’t screen and accept that the test is flawed), I would be entirely happy to provide a reason and have that respected AS LONG AS every women who chooses to screen also has to provide their reasons to screen. If anything, that’s even more essential because it’s confirming their informed consent. Given the amount of misunderstanding surrounding screening, it would also highlight just how many women aren’t really giving informed consent. If medical ethics are being followed, those women who’ve misunderstood will be corrected and asked if they still want to continue. Nearly all of the tweets I saw yesterday were women unwittingly showing they hadn’t given informed consent.
I saw something similar to that with the idea women are more likely to be more honest about their reasons rather than the usual embarrassment tripe. Embarrassment is a handy reason for saying no because in theory is garners sympathy, easier to swallow than “no thanks, I think it’s a waste of time.”
I do love your idea though. I’d imagine there’s a pretty small % genuinely giving informed consent.
The idea that refusing is “embarrassment” is as ludicrous if every guy who was ever accused of attempted rape said that the reason she didn’t cooperate was because she was merely embarrassed, rather than the other reasons she didn’t want sex through coercion.
The attempted rapist would be laughed out of court.
If the guy is a doctor though, it’s not questioned.
I’ve noticed we seem to have more doctors facing historic sexual offences, made we wonder whether the “MeToo” movement has encouraged more women to take action.
I’ve always felt that sexual assault in medicine is treated very differently to someone grabbing a woman in a park or on a train, for a start, it’s often called medical misconduct and in the past was usually handled by the medical board, not the police…which meant not much happened.
Things have changed a bit, now that more women go straight to the Police.
I’ve always felt medical predators deserve the same or even a harsher sentence than the sexual predator in the park…because the doctor has used a position of trust to take advantage..to protect patients, a firm message should be sent, and that’s not…watch out or you’ll have your licence suspended or cancelled…no, it should be prison and the cancellation of your licence. I don’t believe these are one-off cases, medical predators are likely to carry on until they’re stopped…a short suspension and then back to practice is a cruel joke and condemns more patients to sexual abuse.
The article mentions women are much less likely to make a complaint when the assault occurs in a medical setting.
I think these predators must have rejoiced when cervical screening arrived…
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2018/12/doctors-sexual-assault-california/578014/
It seems in the States, doctors are looked after as well.
I think it’s natural that many women would find the test unacceptable, they knew that…that’s why we saw enormous pressure to screen and informed consent and proper ethical conduct was tossed aside. (I consider some of the testing amounted to an assault)
I think women often say they’re too busy or can’t get an appt. when in fact they find the test completely unacceptable – painful, humiliating, violating etc.
Again, they knew that would be the case, so we saw the program belittle women who felt that way, “stop being so immature”…”heaven help you when you have a baby”…etc.
Has anyone heard any sort of criticism or insult thrown at a man who chooses not to have prostate screening or bowel screening?
Bowel cancer has always taken far more lives than cervical cancer (in the developed world) so where’s the hysteria around bowel screening?
Fact is this unreliable test that cost a fortune could only be justified if they could get about 80% of women aged 18 to 70 to have regular screening – that would have been impossible, the uptake was initially very poor, that’s why they ramped up the pressure, tied the script for the Pill to testing and paid GPs to reach targets. Can you imagine that happening with bowel screening?
No, it was only possible because the medical profession did not respect women, felt consent and informed consent could be ignored – and they could confidently pronounce, “it was all in our best interests”…
IMO, only dysfunctional and misogynistic thinking could find that an acceptable response….and from a group with power, unchecked power.
Women should be free to just say NO, an “excuse” should not be necessary, because excuse implies you should be doing the test. Also, women often feel compelled to go into a very private area simply to decline a screening test, information that is our business. Some women are forced to discuss very private information again and again.
I did explain to my GP why I wouldn’t be testing, many years ago now, but I focused on the evidence, that way I could avoid personal detail – of course, most women didn’t have access to real information, actually…in 2019, that’s still the case.
https://www.smh.com.au/healthcare/sexual-boundary-rules-doctors-patients-physicals-20181129-p50j2w.html
It will be interesting to see whether the new guidelines on sexual boundaries will include routine breast and pelvic exams, neither exam is recommended here at any age. In fact, doctors have been told over and over not to do them.
IMO, these exams are often used simply to take advantage of women.
I’ve long been suspicious of the doctors with an intense concern about breast cancer in young women and doing routine breast exams on them.
Now for far too long, doctors could argue they felt the exam was important (their personal view), they were thorough…they were told to do the exam in medical school in 1980 or they recommended it and the woman consented…these excuses don’t wash, the Board should make clear routine breast and pelvic exams should not be carried out…they may constitute an assault…and that might mean prison, not a refresher course!
Omg, those comments! I’m sure all of them from medical students and doctors, all whining about the ways the world will end and the sky will come crashing down on us all if they are no longer allowed to finger their patients at will, and how there is no need for any.oversight because things are already perfect as it is. Woe to all the poor patients who will surely die in debt because exploring medico fingers are the only possible way to truly and accurately diagnose anything! (Speaking of God complexes…). (Also speaking of perverts who clearly only got into medicine to practice perversion without consequence…)
I’m reminded of all the articles that are now admitting that fingering of all sorts is becoming totally unnecessary because so many advancements have been made technologically that a blood test can diagnose more than a good medical fingering now, but that getting personally fingered is still.a good and important part that no one should dispense with because it “creates an emotional bond” between doctor and patient that is totally every bit as necessary as any silly old “medical utility”. Sure, none of us look forward to a Star Trek future where a doctor can just run a simple scan and never had to touch us much less strip us to diagnose or treat, nope, we’d all be so miserable if we couldn’t look.forward to the humiliating nudity and touching and verbal.abuse/threats of we refuse any of it, and the long anxiety-filled wait on a cold table beforehand, as well as the long cry in the car afterward…we all just live for that experience,and these Gods Among Men know it, bless them!
Yeah, rapists often have an emotional.bond with their victims too, the kind that is delightful for them.but a living nightmare for the victim, the same often happens between doctors and patients wth patients avoiding all medical care even when symptomatic be sure of that ok let emotional bond with the medical establishment. But hey, even negative emotional bonds are emotional.bonds, right? Gotta have that emotional bond that can only come by forced unnecessary touching, that’s the only truly important part of medical care!
Demonhype, Oh, to be sure! The cries in the car afterward are never even considered. And, if they are, they have meds to treat that too, you know. It keeps people coming back, because although those are not addictive, they do have “discontinuation syndromes”, so your refusing to be fingered can well include the abrupt discontinuation of those – which appears to be associated with everything from suicide to mass shootings.
100 years ago, they intruded themselves into the honeymoon bed by legally requiring a “premarital exam”, at least of women/brides, which included a good fingering to be sure that she would get aroused or orgasm. If the woman later became “hysterical” that too was treated by treatments that included fingering or object penetrations to get her to have orgasms, so the emotional bond between doctor and patient was and continues to be very important.
In our enlightened late 20th century, men also were not exempt from this. Gone are the days of gender inequality! Instead they get fingered supposedly to feel their prostates – and they too have good cries in the car. I’ve seen that with male partners.
Nevermind that the “bimanual exam” has shown itself to be totally useless, as well as the prostate exam. By the time one can feel ovarian cancer, cancer of the uterine corpus, or prostate cancer, it is large enough that it has metastasized and is difficult to treat, and deadly. In just a bit longer, it will have likely spread enough that it causes symptoms, but from people being fingered and pressured for more fingering, they will be unlikely to seek medical attention, or they will be pressured into more penetration before the problem will be addressed – such as a colonoscopy.
One could always allow the fingerings and penetrations. Mental dissociation is a good way to allow that: See the cutsie signs above examination tables on the ceiling. In that case, they find it earlier, but one may be offered treatment which does not work to solve the cancer, a host of even more invasive examinations and surgeries. The person gets to live more of their life as a cancer patient – even if they never did have cancer. That’s good too: They can be spokespeople to say this all “saves lives”.
Meanwhile, life expectancy is going down for women. It has gotten to the point that women in some areas and demographics of the US are now dying on average of 7 years earlier than our mothers did, with more chronic health conditions. https://www.womenadvancenc.org/2015/06/19/north-carolina-women-are-dying-young/ or https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236640759_Disparities_in_Women%27s_Health_Across_a_Generation_A_Mother-Daughter_Comparison
The #1 cause of death in women is heart disease, the same as it is for men. But, that is NOT what is stressed to women. Instead, we are over-sold on a rare cancer that effects our “girlie bits”. Even if we do show up at an emergency room having a heart attack, we get treated less aggressively. Even if we show up at a doctor with classic signs of heart conditions, we are less likely to be taken seriously. Cardiosmart is a website of the American College of Cardiology. One of their suggestions to women is, “Talk to your doctor” (about risks and such). If a woman tries this, it will be back to the pelvic exam discussion! So, she is less likely to be able to talk to her doctor. Moreover, one of the risks for cardio problems or worsening them is treatment for breast cancer.
On the 3rd page of the Cardiosmart, of risk factors, it mentions “Broken heart syndrome, also called Takotsubo Syndrome or stress cardiomyopathy: Despite the name, it can occur with good or bad emotional excitement.” Gee, do you think that pressuring women into exams every year or so that is rape by coercion could lead to this? It is known that the less outright violent and “gentler” rapes cause more long-term issues than the violent ones. This is because victims blame themselves more.
https://www.cardiosmart.org/Heart-Conditions/Women-and-Coronary-Artery-Disease/Understand-Your-Condition
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-09/esoc-wah090405.php
https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2019/03/07/ensuring-the-accuracy-of-screening-information/
Ensuring the accuracy of screening information!
“Obviously there are many sources of health information outside of the NHS and government. For instance, there are commercial websites and smartphone apps which many people use, as well as COMMUNITY FORUMS.
We do not have the capacity or remit to check these and do not have any control over them. Many of these information sources contain useful and up to date information about screening but we cannot guarantee that. And we have seen examples where information is out of date, inaccurate, insensitive or unhelpful”
So if you spot a problem with the screening information and advice in any of these sources, feel free to tell us about it by contacting the helpdesk. We’ll look at it and contact the provider of the information if we think it is dangerously wrong or misleading. But we cannot guarantee that our suggestions will be followed.
So basically we had better watch out with our forum here and any others that may damage the programmes!
Bring it on!
We have a real reference section…
I’d like to see them back up a lot of the rubbish they’ve fed to women over the years with solid medical references…can’t happen, it’s a mix of hype and misinformation. Interesting, when the UK breast screening program came up with the slogan…1 in 8 or 9 women will get breast cancer…they failed to mention that the risk rises with age…it’s certainly not the case that 25 year old women carry that sort of risk. In fact, I think the statement included women in their 80s.
So a highly misleading statement.
I believe it was done quite deliberately to exaggerate the risk and scare women.
The same number was produced here..it was finally challenged…and their pathetic excuse, “that was the figure used elsewhere, so we didn’t change it, we didn’t want to confuse women”…
(Or words to that effect)
As if…the aim was quite clearly to scare and mislead women so we’d all rush in for screening and greatly fear breast cancer.
That’s why I think many women are afraid of pretend cervical and breast cancer…the diseases they fear, don’t actually exist…rampant cc and breast cancer striking down 1 in 8 or 9.
Would women fear these cancers as much without the scare campaigns and misleading statements?
Breast cancer is a concern but for many women it totally overshadows every other health risk…including heart disease.
The fact is we’re FAR more likely to die from heart disease but until recently, we heard very little about it…the focus has always been our breasts and reproductive organs.
I wonder why…
https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2018/11/30/phe-to-launch-national-cervical-screening-campaign-in-march-2019/?unapproved=5470&moderation-hash=c846219e64c48e85014966351d9bd5a6#comment-5470
Any comments made “Your comment is awaiting moderation” some are being answered, very slowly!
https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2019/03/08/screening-year-report-showcases-our-work-to-reduce-inequalities/
Today we have published our report that celebrates the work of the NHS screening programmes in England during 2017 to 2018 (1 April 2017 to 31 March 2018).
During those 12 months, we screened:
•3.2 million women for cervical abnormalities
•2.6 million people for bowel cancer
•2.2 million people for diabetic eye disease
•2.1 million women for breast cancer
•660,000 pregnant women for infectious diseases and to identify if their unborn baby has a major physical or genetic condition
•more than 640,000 babies for 15 conditions, including sickle cell disease and cystic fibrosis
How much has this cost the NHS I wonder?
One has to wonder why they don’t record the opt outs considering they are so hysterical we MUST test…I asked that q on the blog…it’s waiting for moderation lol
Also, how many women provided informed consent for the test? Any numbers on that category?
No?….(crickets chirping…)
We know many women were coerced into testing, they should be taken out, they clearly didn’t give consent, they were forced to test.
Women ambushed in the consult room by an aggressive GP or nurse, take them out too.
Women misled into testing, believing cc was rampant and a serious threat, take them out..
Women led to believe the test was mandatory – take them out
Those who gave in after years of harassment by home visits, phone and/or letters – out
Conclusion: I don’t think many women provided informed consent for testing, many did not consent at all.
Initially, most women rejected the test, that should have been the end of it, instead the program and medical profession put their heads together to find ways to force women into testing, forget proper ethical standards, forget the law, forget human rights, just force women into testing.
That’s not screening…
Daily fail today ladies. An article on smears featuring the vomitable Ms Goody
It’s totally vile. It rips women apart for not screening. To be embarrassed or worried about smell is making excuses. It also lashes out at those of us who don’t have mammograms or check their breasts regularly. We’re blasé about our health
Blasé in this case means we’re not listening to them anymore, we know what’s going on…they hate that, the gravy train has run off the rails. They can say or do whatever they like, they won’t get back the women who’ve walked away from these programs. Too many women are now informed or have walked away for various reasons, often trauma associated with screening or over-treatment. Scare campaigns, scolding, fudged stats…it all just rolls off our backs.
Dr Max is worried how complacent we are and says womens medicine is a victim of its own SUCCESS? ???
I know many of you hear are not from the US . I just remembered back int the early 2000s my friends that were on birth control all said they were forced to have Pap smears before they got on the pill. Some of these were young girls like 13 14 year olds and virgins getting Pap smears. Looking back at it now what the hell were theses doctors doing. I didn’t know back the what I know now. Just that something seemed wrong . I’m so glad I was raised by my grandmother who was old fashion. Back in her day girls didn’t go for gym exams unless they were pregnant. All this well woman crap shaved at woman wasn’t pushed like it is today. Im 34 now and have lived without all these exams so I don’t feel worried about not having them. I only see it as someone elders aginda and violating. I really think Americans recent generations have been grooming young to make woman think the only reason they are healthy is because of these exams and desinsitze them to the invasive ness. Now mother’s are scared the daughter is sleeping around needs to tested and put on the pill. They even don’t want mothers trusting there daughters any more. It’s brainwashing hear. It makes me madd that other countries don’t screen woman till later in life and don’t tie the pill to birth control. Why are woman so trusting? Idk. Why hasn’t someone hear explaned that the pill has nothing to do with bc why are woman left in the dark. It ticks me off so bad.
When I first got on birth control, a bimanual pelvic and pap were required at Planned Parenthood in the early 80s. I have to say that the nurse who did it was wonderful, and had me look too, and was teaching me about my own body. It was still not in any way related to the pill, but I was led to believe that it was – that CC was rampant, that the pill would make it worse if I had it, and yadda-dadda. I now know that my risk was HIGH for false positives I got in my 20s – and I had a LOT of them, including one doctor who insisted on doing them weekly (!!!) when I had a vaginal infection – a yeast infection he was treating (???) with antibiotics! No, he just wanted to get into a young woman’s vagina every week, and keep her new husband out of it.
My cousins yeast infection was found through a urinalysis. She went to a walk-in clinic. Of course had she gone to a gyno or other doctors they whould want to do an exam and when my grandmother presented to a gynecologist for a yeast infection. He did a Pap smear on her . Never mind she did not have a cervix anymore. He had to have known that . I guess it’s a Pap everything mentality. I just have to laugh at these hungry doctors.
Just read the Mayo Clinic hear in the US is saying that “Virgins can still concider Pap smears.” “Low chance but still consider”. lol my God they are thersty.
Kleigh it was the same here in the UK in the 1980s. I remember being in a house share where the 2 other girls were on the Pill and I remember they got the letters to attend for smears if they didn’t no Pill. They joked u was the good girl bcoz I didn’t take the Pill!!
By that time I’d come off it as it had triggered the migraine headaches I still get today. Of course doctors deny this link…
Katrehman, I agree I also feel like Doctors use birth control to control woman. All this is so sexist. And still no push for a mans birth control. Men whoulnt put up with the side effects and invasive exams. But it’s okay to do that to woman. I never wanted to use hormones. Ever since I can remember all I saw was the girls on the pill complaining they gained weight or got depressed. Some even ended up pregnant. I don’t trust the pill and hate how it’s pushed on woman.
I agree with you Kleigh. I have never taken the pill nor would I, nor have I ever had any smear tests or pelvic exams. I just feel that it is all used to control women and to give men power over women’s bodies and sexuality.
It used to be said that women ‘must’ report for a smear test by age 21 or when they started having sex, which ever came first. I felt that statement was just vile – it was like having to report your sexual activity to a doctor and who knows where it might be recorded. Many women were having pelvics and smear tests before they were married as they went for the pill before their wedding night. It was like their sexuality was being monitored.
Obviously many women choose to take the pill and that is up to them, but it’s wrong to tie it to the pap smear. It was like the medical establishment struck gold when they manufactured that link. They’d never have got as many women in for smears and pelvics without it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47528672
Third of under-30s in Wales snub cervical smear tests
Did you read that “Screening saved my life” story at the bottom? Although they don’t recommend the test for under-25 women, she says she wished she’d have accepted the first one when she was 21, as she’s now got cancer and all of that stuff. She might have had a false sense of security, and not gone to the doctor when she began having symptoms.
Loveyourcervix? Who thinks this s*** up??
Most whoulnt even think about a cervix it’s only because of this screening.
Actually know what?? I do love my cervix. That’s why I keep it away from THE NHS and it’s “invitations “!
I had the bad luck to see the new cervical screening tv advert last night and it so annoyed me. Thanking ppl 4 reminding them to book their smear implies as women we’re so daft we NEED to be reminded….of course we’ll forget to otherwise
Guessing that TV Ad was the one with the dog holding the letter? Made me furious too! Whatever kind of emotional blackmail they can come up with to use, outrageous!
yes Chas that’s the ad. It’s vomitable…
It is absolutely sickening. I was livid when I saw it – it is so patronising. These campaigns act as though it’s just like popping along to the dentist or beautician, when in fact it’s a grotesquely invasive and, to me, completely unacceptable test. They must be getting to the desperation stage as the numbers are falling – now they are intruding into our homes with these dreadful adverts.
More from daily fail. 19 year old diagnosed with CC vows to be maid of honour at sisters wedding after postponing chemo to five birth to her son
Another (Groundhog ) day another hysterical rant in Daily fail Cervical screening is in MELTDOWN after women are forced to wait WEEKS for results due to lab closures….
According to the DM there has been a surge in demand for smears since January and the introduction of these schemes to increase uptake
Plugging away Kat on the daily fail LOL!
My comment that typically this cancer takes years to develop so the death rate will hardly rocket has 38 dislikes and a reply of you idiot…..Oh well..
Don’t feel bad kat…i got downvoted on Yahoo answers for telling a girl in a monogamous virgin relationship that a pap might not benefit her since it’s nearly impossible for her to have hpv and it rarely detects non-hpv cancers. Apparently telling someone it’s her own decision and she can take some time to do her own research is an awful suggestion…shame on me! (Eyeroll)
Yes, I get attacked on Twitter daily for daring to mention cervical cancer is rare. Such a bad person! When I come armed with stats, they get even nastier and start going on about my ‘anti-smear agenda.’
I’m not only blocked by Rebekah ‘Chav Queen’ Vardy but also Dr Philippa Kay now too. Must be doing something right 🙂
Thanks Emily x
I can’t stand what the Daily Fail and the other tabloids print, it is stirring up hatred all the time with them. It makes me depressed to read what so many of these women say, how they only go because it “runs in their family”. No dear, you go because you’re too thick to understand why and need a stupid reason. Then you get all that nonsense about how they’re bossing women into going because they really care for those women who don’t go and they want to save their lives. They don’t seem to be concerned at all about all the young people who die of other causes in any way.
I’ve recently seen a conversation on twitter between 2 women whose cervices could not be found after doctor fiddled for half an hour, and both had to be eventually referred to hospital to have smears taken there. What must the cost of all this be? In such cases an HPV self test could have found both to be negative and need no hospital referrals at all. What an absolute waste of NHS money this whole business is.
HPV testing was used as a test of cure until recently here, all the procedures that could have been avoided if these women had been tested for HPV first.
Such invasive and distressing procedures too…
The program and medical profession chose to over-treat, enjoying the profits…and wasted millions in the process.
Medicare costs a fortune and is also short of funds, yet they waste millions and call it good medical care, it’s a sick joke
Thank you Chas…I up voted your comments x the pro screener really don’t like us lol…
I noticed all those down votes you got, still all as clueless as usual. Loving your comments, all I can say is they are all idiots LOL
It’s weird as I commented there the other day and I got a ton of down votes but then previous times I’d get a lot upvotes.
I’ve noticed a few people around recently on the Daily Fail and social media who look and behave like paid shills/trolls. Could it be they’ve enlisted people to push their pro-screening messages?
Carolyn,
Either paid shills/trolls, or paid bots to be scouring such things.
I have to wonder who is behind this pro-pap crap stuff, throughout various countries around the world, with various sorts of governments and healthcare payment systems. The trick is usually “follow the money”, but that’s not really working this time. Yes, there is the free access to women’s vaginas for the male clinicians, and the power-rape trip when she can’t say no, but I don’t think that’s enough to explain this.
Thank u Chas. .. you make good points too. As for the down votes well….the truth hurts the pro screeners lol….
Daily Fail have a story just now about a poor lady who had died from CC, apparently after “missing” a smear test. The comments are the usual – “get your smears, they are lifesavers”. When oh when will people realise that a mass screening programme for a rare illness is bonkers and overall does more harm than good?
It is made the woman’s fault if she gets CC – either for not screening, not screening regularly enough, or “missing” an appointment. I wouldn’t be surprised if some screeners who do develop CC are given it from the poking and prodding done to them over the years. Maybe all that scraping of the cervix aggravates the area and exposes it to the HPV virus, or maybe the act of inserting the speculum forces the virus up further into the cervix. Or maybe some people will develop it regardless and it is just sadly unfortunate.
They don’t get it that “missing” an appointment, and being maybe 1 month overdue, is NOT going to suddenly make our cervixes blow up and kill us by suddenly showing up with stage 4 CC!
Some of our loved ones have been roped into the emotional manipulation that we’re going to certainly die if we don’t have these tests, absolutely on schedule.
I ran into an interesting hypothesis (no study) about why the CC rate has gone down since the 1950s. The typical one pushed is Pap, but a more reasonable one is hygiene and diet. The hypothesis is that pap testing, involving a brush on the cervix that creates irritation, especially if there are HPV viruses around, are pushed in there, the resulting inflammation causes a “localized immune response”, effectively innoculating us against the HPV virus. I guess that all explains the study in the 1980s of doctor’s offices having many pathogens on the fomates (doorknobs, glove boxes, tables, lube, etc), or all offices not sterilizing the speculum after each use. (heavy sigh)
The reason they changed from the metal speculums to the disposable plastic ones was because the small GP surgeries did not have adequate sterilising facilities and the germs from the one speculum were being transferred from woman to woman. I found a couple of articles on this that may be in the references section on this website. The HPV can survive being washed with water so stayed on the speculum and was put inside the next woman. I once tried to find out what happens to the millions of single use speculums which go in the bin every year – another huge waste from this programme, but couldn’t get an answer from anyone, as it was always “not our responsibility”. I did read once on a nursing website that the bin that the used speculums were put in really stank.
Just some cmments of the previous posts. At some points in time it was determined that HPV, a virus caused changes that were detected in pap tests and very rarely porgressed to cancer. It was also determined that HPV infections were likely transmitted sexually and even sometimes by other means.
It was never really made sense to me that after being explained that the HPV virus was transmitted during sexually activity because small tears in the skin would allow entry for the virus. So why would the pap test for actually used a tool to scrap the cervix and spread around the virus and infection more areas and then shove a small brush up,the cervical canal which is only one layer cell thick and more vulnerable? I picture this peanut butter being spread around a bagel.
There is also the issue of the cleanliness of doctor’s offices certainly dental offices have a higher standard. Metal speculums were commonly used and often only given a high level disinfection (soaking in bleach water) not sterilized. There is a question that metal speculums and other tools for biopsy are used for colposcopy and often are NOT sterilized between each use only disinfected. Plastic disposable speculum are not sterile. They are often wet in the same sinks where doctors wash their hands and throw used speculum or tools. Some clinics will put the speculum in a jar of sterile water which is a better practice.
Why was the urine test for hpv never promoted by the medical industry?
Indeed, the pap test appears to be designed to introduce pathogens under the skin and into the blood stream. The speculums can themselves have HPV or other pathogens on them, can cut or scrape the skin while inserted, and can also be a source of infection.
The notion that the vagina is not a sterile place (true), and thus does not require sterile technique (also true) makes it a-okay to not bother to worry about what pathogens someone introduces. While my vagina is not sterile, it is not infected with gonorrhea, herpes, chlamydia, and everything else the previous patients in the clinic might have had.
Regarding the plastic speculums……we only have their word (which doesn’t mean much to me) that they are disposable / thrown away, how do we really know that? It is possible that they are recycled in some way, or more or less just washed and re-packaged? I have no trust whatsoever! If you do have HPV then yes I believe the cyto brush will push it further up the canal causing the spread. Nothing relating to this procedure is sterile, not us, not them, not the room, not the sinks, they run the speculum under the tap & the water is not sterile. Also from my experience before they enter the speculum they would touch my inner thigh first (not sterile of course) & their explanation for this is to avoid the shock when using it…………..really what an utterly stupid reason!
The whole process is gross. I am so thankful I no longer attend these tests – all thanks to you guys and this site x
I had a visit at the GP surgery last week and as my hand was on the door handle to leave, I got the mention of Cervical screening………..Oh my I just laughed at him, he knows how I feel about it, what a twat.
Some time ago, I ran across a report that a lot of single-use medical devices are re-used. I know during a medical emergency, resulting in an emergency surgery, that they first suggested I be catheterized by a nurse holding an unwrapped catheter in one (ungloved) hand, the tubing and bag in another, and announced that she was going to catheterize me. H*LL NO! Not with that set of stuff! Later, after the ACA became law, and data was being collected in one place, it was discovered that more vaccinations were being given than there were syringes manufactured. This leaves out other injections given. This means that there is either a tremendous amount of fraud with the vaccinations reported, the manufacturers are for some reason grossly under-reporting how many syringes they manufacture (unlikely, as this is part of their profit, which attracts investors), OR THEY ARE BEING WIDELY REUSED. We already know this is being done widely in third-world countries where they cannot afford or cannot get delivery of these medical items, but in the US – REALLY! Later, there have been a number of reports at colonoscopy clinics throughout the US and Canada of clinics who have been using some of their single-use parts for YEARS.
This certainly puts a wide opportunity for cross infection among patients.
Meanwhile, we are told to be responsible with our sexual activity – pointing out that if you have unprotected sex with someone, you are exposing yourself to the diseases that every one of their past sexual partners had, as well as the diseases that all of their past sexual partners had. At the same time, you are sexually exposing yourself in the doctor’s office to everything their last however-many patients they had since these things were sterilized, plus everyone who touched the counters, doorknobs, tables, etc. Wow! And, considering that unwell people appear in doctors offices more than well people, it’s likely they had one or more of these infections.
https://www.nursingtimes.net/the-use-of-vaginal-specula-in-improving-infection-control/201331.article
A local audit undertaken in several GP practices found that many were failing to follow current national guidelines on the decontamination of minor and general surgical instruments and other equipment, including vaginal specula. This included both the reuse of instruments designed for single use only and inadequate decontamination of reusable items.
Okay I know this was 2006 but you never know, it could still be happening?
It’s one of the reasons we try and keep our mother out of hospitals, day procedure etc. they pick up infections. Mum is 87 in July, she loves life and embraces every day, she sees a lot of doctors but no screening (apart from blood tests) I think she’s happier and healthier as a result of the decision to ditch screening. I suspect Mum had a least 2 surgeries thanks to screening and on both occasions she lost something that could quite happily have stayed put…and the dementia was probably caused by a small stroke that occurred during a screening colonoscopy.
We don’t want her time spent in waiting rooms (except at a day spa!) or recovering from a procedure or surgery. We really have to protect ourselves and our elderly parents from medical interference, it’s so damaging – it can take our lives or health and quality of life and cause us a lot of worry and pain.
Hi Eliz. I used to use canestan which is very effective. The tablet and the cream. However I haven’t worked in ages so had to look at a cheaper alt. I’ve found that pure coconut cream is just as effective. Hope that helps.
Hi Eliz
Its terrible that your sister picked up this infection in a medical setting. It shouldn’t be happening. The tools they use cannot be sterilized properly between patients. Pathogens hide in the works somehow infecting person after person.
Keep your mother away from hospitals. My mother in law picked something up before she died on her info it said CAI . they didn’t tell us what it meant. It means Community equired infection. Ie Hospital equired infection.
Linda,
My FIL has been mostly in the hospital, except for a week 2 different times, for the past 6 months! He had a needed surgery for gangrene, when he caught C. Diff. He’s been mostly in the hospital for the past 6 months, sometimes in isolation, for this Hospital Acquired Infection (HAI), and nobody really expects him to get out of it alive.
I shudder to think of the expense of this! He’s got great insurance plus Medicare (US), but the cost has to be in the millions.
Ladies we are getting more up votes than down votes on that daily mail article – Brilliant!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6820537/Meltdown-cervical-screening-women-forced-wait-months-results.html#comments
Dr V used a metal speculum on me during my first smear. When he had finished he threw it in a sink with some other specs, where there was a bottle of washing up liquid next to them. I’ve always wondered if this is how he washed the device after each use.
Until then I had never had thrush in my life, but afterwards I suffered from thrush on and off for years. I even passed it to my husband once. I totally believe Dr V passed thrush to me from this device which had probably been in loads of women he had conned into having smears. Washing the spec in washing up liquid is the reason. I still occasionally suffer from thrush to this day.
It makes me wonder if doctors and nurses have been passing HPV on to women due to their unsanitary practices. The article seems to suggest this is possible.
A post written a few weeks ago also suggests that they try to get away with using the same sheet of paper for several women at a time.
Very worrying. I shudder to think of it all.
OMG yes I remember my first few were with a metal speculum and placing it in the sink, awful just awful! Basically they could have, and probably did cause many thousands of cervical cancers…..that helped them to form the programme…dam it!
I too got my first vaginal infection after I was having Paps in a doctor’s office – rather than Planned Parenthood. I’d never had one before. He did another speculum exam, including a Pap (this guy did Paps all the time, and charged for them!). He diagnosed me with BV, and gave me antibiotics. IT GOT WORSE. I ended up with a greenish smelly discharge. I went back – trichomonias, along with another pap. Another prescription. The greenish discharge went away, but I was still in pain. The BV was back. MOre antibiotics. And, of course yet another pap. This went on for months. I was in an HMO, and I asked for a referral to a gyn – NO. Eventually, I was whining to a friend about this, and she suggested I see her (woman) gyn. I did – at my own expense. Yeast. Not only that, a systemic case of it, no doubt from all of those antibiotics. She called him up and gave him a piece of her mind. It took a year of prescriptions and a candida diet (my current diabetes diet is far more lax on sugar) – everything not prohibited was mandatory. Meanwhile, I ended up with a cystitis that wouldn’t stop too – probably from ALL of those examinations. She tried a couple of times painting my cervix with gentian violet – a very old, very effective, and very messy procedure to treat fungus infections. It helped. What helped more was a visit to a feminist health center, sort of hippy-ish in its demeanor, who suggested that I make boric acid into suppositories by filling 000 capsules with the powder, and using them 4 times per day. 4 grams of vitamin C per day for the UTI. And, every day, put a turkey-baster full of plain active yogurt in my vagina. THIS WORKED! Now, I use the boric acid and/or yogurt when I think I might be getting a vaginal infection, a single 4 gram dose of vitamin C when I think I might be getting a UTI. I haven’t had either of these in over 30 years.
Meanwhile, I came down with genital warts. My husband said he never had them. My previous SO was a virgin when we first had sex, and I’m positive he didn’t cheat. I was introduced to the “latency theory” – that I’d picked up the HPV from someone “Years ago”. Well, I was molested/raped as a child, so it seemed that was possible. Now…. NOPE. If pathogens could hang around latent, unaffected by the immune system, vaccines and inoculations could not work at all. More likely, I got the wart-causing HPV in a doctor’s office.
It seems that seeking medical care is a good way to become sick, or pick up a new disease.
Linda
A friend of mine had an endometrial biopsy last August and since then she’s had issues with thrush, she firmly believes it was picked up in day procedure. I’ve been doing some reading for her, but would appreciate your feedback.
When it first appeared about a week after the procedure, the pharmacist gave her thrush cream, it was used for 6 days and that helped a lot, she was more comfortable.
About 2 months later, it was back, same treatment, gone again…anyway, it’s been coming back ever since and she’s sick to death of it.
I suspect she’s not treating herself for long enough, I read that over 50% of thrush infections reoccur and that you have to keep using the cream for about a month even when the symptoms have eased or gone. (in cases when the thrush keeps coming back)
I know she’s now drinking probiotics every day, wearing cotton underwear and loose clothing…it’s really changed her quality of life, she was taking swimming lessons, that had to stop, the stinging was too much (she felt that might be aggravating it)
Can you offer any remedies that help you?
I’ve heard women complain about thrush but I’ve never had it, I’ve also never had a Pap test or any other sort of gyn procedure (fingers crossed it stays that way!) I wonder if that’s the reason I’ve been spared…
I do wonder if all the poking around many women endure sets us up for thrush, UTIs, HPV etc.
I’m a firm believer – if it’s not broken, leave it alone!
(I’m sure she didn’t need the endometrial biopsy either)
Linda,
Thanks for the recommendation of coconut oil as a natural treatment for thrush, there’s not much research in the area, some doctors say coconut oil can lead to infections but I read lots of comments from women who swear by coconut oil and tee tree oil (a tiny amount added to the oil, it can burn delicate areas) for bacterial infections and thrush.
it makes sense, both have strong anti-bacterial, anti-fungal and anti-viral qualities, tea tree oil also has anti-inflammatory and analgesic properties too.
Coconut oil is also soothing and offers a barrier to reduce stinging, discomfort etc.
Anyway, we went looking for some and finally found 100% pure, organic, unrefined coconut oil (some thought we were after refined coconut oil for Thai cooking!) – it’s been used 2 days in a row now and I’m hearing good things.
We were wondering though – do you just leave the oil to do it’s work or wipe/rinse it out after a few hours? Would about half a teaspoon an application be about the right mark?
How long does it usually take to clear up the problem, whether that’s thrush or a bacterial infection?
I read lots of accounts on line from women caught in a cycle of thrush to BI and back again, sometimes going on for years. One woman said she can only wear skirts these days, trousers are too uncomfortable and can make things worse.
GPs usually give you antibiotics for a bacterial infection, but thet can cause thrush, even if you take probiotics at the same time, you can be unlucky.
Honestly, sometimes the home/natural remedies are the best ones, I swear by the poultice – worked a treat with my infected finger – great for blind pimples and cysts too.(and splinters)
I was reading that during menopause, when our hormones are fluctuating, and our skins changing, becoming thinner and more delicate, we can get male pattern acne, more cysts, pimples and bacterial infections. (and other things…)
Handy to add tea tree oil and coconut oil to the arsenal…I’ve noticed a few tiny pimples on my jawline – I’ll have to look for a treatment, the normal cleansing doesn’t seem to be working, not a major problem though, easily covered with a bit of foundation or concealer.
Linda, thanks for the advice…
I got into the yeast/BV/yeast/BV circle years ago, compounded by getting treatment-resistant variants of both. What I did, and have been doing since at the first sign of something (I don’t have to define it) is to mix tea tree oil, 10:1 with olive oil HEAVY on the oliive oil. Or, put in a turkey-baster full of active plain yogurt. Or, if I can get capsules of probiotics, put them in like suppositories. If the discharge is yellowish/bloody, douche with betadine, and do some combination of the other stuff.
I get a breaking-out/open skin under my arms. I’m also allergic to aluminum salts they put in the commercial antipersperants. 😦 I thought I was making this stuff as a deodorant, but it worked really well. 2 parts coconut oil, 1 part olive oil, 1 part baking soda, “a fair amount” of tea tree oil (maybe about 1/10 of a part). Warm the oils until they melt – not much more than 40C or 105F. Add the baking soda and stir in. Stir in the tea tree oil. IMMEDIATELY pour into a glass jar with a tight lid. To use, just dip a little out with your finger, and put it on whatever you think needs deodorant or a bit of antifungal/antibacterial.
It also seems to work on other assorted breaking out, from heat rash or the like.
Beth
Would you use the olive oil and tea tree oil for thrush or bacterial infection? I understand it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes, (unless a swab is examined) and is that 1 part tea tree oil to 10 parts olive oil, so 1 or 2 drops to say 2 tablespoons of oil. I know the tea tree oil can burn so I’ll pass it on but just wanted to check the dosage. How long does it usually take to clear the problem? She’s trying coconut oil and tea tree oil at the moment, be good to have a back up plan.
Using metric, 1 tablespoon is 14.1 grams (of something like flour). So, if you want to go 10:1, you’d need 1.4 grams. Since olive oil/coconut oil/tea tree oil are all oil, the same volume will be about the same weight. Or, about 1/5 teaspoon.
I seldom resort to this for internal use. Only if it’s stubborn, and use it along with either boric acid or lactobacilus capsules or plain yogurt.
What I do most often is to just use the plain yogurt or the lactobacilli in capsules.
Another thing is to get some boric acid powder, along with some empty 000 capsules from the druggist. Put the boric acid in the empty capsules, and use them like suppositories. DO NOT USE ORALLY!
Lactobacilli, coconut/olive/tea tree oil, yogurt or boric acid capsules (or all of those 🙂 )
It starts clearing up in a couple of days. If it’s just starting, it should clear up then, so use it another couple of days. If you’ve had it awhile, and it’s got a firm hold, it might take longer. End with lactobacilli and/or yogurt, to restore the bacteria. Do any of these about twice a day. You can do more if it makes you feel better.
Another one is to paint the vulva as well as the vagina including cervix with gentian violet. You can get that at a pharmacy. Use a swab. Put down old towels or papers where you’re doing it – it makes a mess and is nearly impossible to remove the stains. Wear pads and be prepared to stain any underwear you’re wearing. Wear old ones you’re about to throw away, or deep purple or black. That often clears it right up. I’ve used it on thrush on gums or toenails as often as twice a day.
Vinegar douches for yeast, or betadine douches for bacteria are also good.
Putting some slippery elm powder (maybe a teaspoon or so) in with the douche tends to cut down the pain and inflammation. I don’t think it helps clear it though. That’s something to get from an herb shop.
I haven’t seen a doctor for vaginitis since 1987! One or some combination of these things helps – and start it before it gets to be a horrible problem!
Beth, that’s fabulous, thanks for all the information, can’t beat decades of personal experience.
This group is amazing, just women helping women.
At least we are all well out of it !!……it’s just getting through to the rest of them now lol…
Oh my – now they are offering this, obviously to increase uptake:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-47628779
Dozens of childcare providers across the UK are offering to look after children for free to enable mothers to attend cervical screening appointments. Public Health England is currently spearheading a campaign to increase take-up rates of tests, said to be the lowest for about 20 years.
And this particular one says about 3,000 women will be diagnosed with cervical cancer each year in the UK. Funny that, as I read recently it says 5,000, next week it might be 10,000 LOL! All the usual shite there too! The word “excuse” used several times!
Someone shared this on Twitter today. It’s an older article but I hadn’t seen it before. Interesting read: https://theconversation.com/celebrity-campaigns-are-a-distraction-from-the-real-risks-of-cancer-screening-44257
Daily telegraph today. Self test kits to b sent to women who don’t respond to “invitations ” for smears.
Also mobile screening units for smears mammograms and bowel to be set up near shops workplaces ect.ppl should be able to book screening appointment so easily from their smartphone
Kat this is amazing news! I thought they would never do this but they are clearly so very desperate now. I’ve tried viewing the article and there is the usual rubbish that the reason is all down to embarrassment. Will have to keep an eye out for further news from another source. I did spot the news that Crapita has been stripped of their contract to run the summons service as they’ve cocked-up so much, it will now be brought back under NHS control.
I don’t think you should worry about the idiots on the Daily Fail. Would just love to see their faces when the full UK HPV programme is rolled out later this year, and it dawns on them that all what we’ve been saying is true. I can’t wait.
The only issue with self testing – it seems easier but women won’t be told where the test might lead, just that it’s simple and private. If the HPV test comes back positive, and I assume they’ll be offering HPV self testing and not the self-pap test – it comes back positive and you’ll be pursued for a smear – and you’ll probably be anxious about the HPV positive result.
If the self test is offered to women under 30, lots will test HPV+and these women also produce lots of false positive pap tests. We’ve tossed our young women under the bus, HPV testing from 25, yet anyone can do basic research and find HPV testing should not happen before 30.
Self testing can be a slippery slope onto the medical conveyer belt to over-investigation, continuing surveillance and over-treatment.
We should be told the whole story.
I know a few people who do the FOBT because they don’t like the idea of a colonoscopy, fair enough but if you get a positive FOBT, guess what? Colonoscopy! (or you wait and test again and that means a lot of worry for most people)
It’s the same lack of information or misinformation that is always part of cancer screening – and it means we make decisions based on that, not on the evidence, on the whole picture.
Elizabeth so sorry I hit the wrong button and down voted u by mistake! I’ll wear my glasses in future I promise…x
Daily fail today ladies article about women being sent self test kits of they don’t show 4 a smear…300+ comments already
Kat you did a fantastic job as usual with your comments. I didn’t make any myself being in the US and not under the NHS so wouldn’t carry much weight, but up arrowed your comments and replied to a few really outrageous ones including one by a poster named “Nixie” who called women who skip smears “idiots.” Some of these pro-screening zealots become abusive, I believe, to try and compensate for their lack of intelligence and critical thinking skills.
Judy… thank you! I’ll look 4 your comments too x
mine are posted under the unlikely nick of “fdfdfs” (don’t ask)
Sorry to b a bore ladies but again daily fail today woman calling for annual smears after developing terminal CC in the 3 year interval between smears
Also daily fail women thank jade goody for saving their lives after they were inspired to get smears after her death…I’m now going into hibernation til this is all over lol
What is it with the Daily Mail, sorry, Fail – why are they so obsessed with a rare cancer? Do they have some affiliation with Jo’s Trust or another lobby group?
Seems weird to focus on a rare cancer, do they have heaps of articles on other rare cancers?
Daily Fail is just really into shaming women for their bodies and making them feel guilty. Keeps us meek and humble, I guess…
It seems to have a conservative readership with the comments following articles quite often containing a fair amount of women-bashing, blaming us for all of societies ills. Sadly, no doubt some of these comments are from other women. So what better way to keep us in our place then on our backs in stirrups?
Elizabeth not really. The odd one on breast screening. I think they just want to whip up mistrust and hysteria. They’re very right wing in their politics
I am not sure that it’s (just) conservative politics behind this bikini medicine screening craze. There are many on the left who believe the hysteria too, and object to any sort of reduction in these screenings as an attack on “women’s health”, and take the objections as a misogynistic attempt to shorten women’s lives. They downplay the harms from screening, the overdiagnosis, the overtreatment, and the fact that some screenings increase the risk of whatever they are screening for.
Meanwhile, this craze of screenings for minimal risks take away from actual healthcare, diagnosing and treating the actual problems the woman came in for, and failing to test for problems which are far more likely to kill or disable us.
https://phescreening.blog.gov.uk/2019/03/21/update-for-primary-care-on-cervical-screening-campaign/
Opting out and women with symptoms
As ever, I would stress that screening is a choice and that while I hope the campaign will encourage women to be screened, those who make an informed decision to opt out should never be put under pressure to change their mind
But as always the focus remains on encouraging women to attend!!
Again daily fail… re hash of yesterday’s self test article. Now Jos tosh and eve appeal are begging to get self test kits offered to increase uptake and keep them in business lol…
Jo’s Tosh will know that HPV is common and they are hoping that non-screeners will do this self test, get a positive HPV reading, then be frightened into going for the full pap test. It’s just another way to keep women on the gynaecological merry go round.
I wouldn’t be surprised if non-screeners are “found” to have this infection at a 50% level, then the next time the other 50% will have it – this to force them into the pap through fear. I guess their thinking is that once you’ve had one smear, you will just carry on having them.
I won’t be doing this self test – for the same reasons I won’t have any screenings. It’s all designed to control and frighten people and not about disease prevention.
Why does the daily mail site constantly freeze up on me….dam it! Trying hard to post but difficult!
It doesn’t seem to work at all well on my tablet, although I go on and mark up the right posts, but often it just stops and won’t accept any more. I’ve tried posting but doesn’t seem to work on my tablet.
Chas keep trying. I got a few through. ..some of the comments are odious slamming non screeners.
Getting there LOL! Last post was about Jade Goody’s awful journey! I don’t believe she died from cc but probably from all the treatments and crap she had to endure!
Vomitable
COPIED & PASTED FULL PULSE ARTICLE AS NEED TO REGISTER BUT I ONLY GET 2 VIEWS A DAY AS I AM NOT IN HEALTHCARE & GET LOCKED OUT LOL!
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/clinical/clinical-specialties/cancer/capita-to-be-stripped-of-nhs-cervical-screening-contract-following-issues/20038426.article
Speaking in front of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) this afternoon, NHS England chief executive Simon Stevens said he is not ‘satisfied’ with how the private company has run the cervical screening programme, and will begin the phased transition back in house in June.
Last year, it was revealed that Capita failed to deliver over 47,000 cervical cancer screening letters to patients – an issue it knew about two months before informing NHS England.
At the time, the BMA wrote to NHS England, calling for an end to Capita’s contract for GP back office services, with the GP Committee calling it ‘nothing short of shambolic’.
During today’s session, focusing on adult health screening, Mr Stevens said following these issues the contract will be brought ‘back in house’.
He said: ‘We have not been satisfied with the way in which [Capita] has been performing.’
‘Today I am announcing we are bringing the cervical screening service back in house to the NHS from Capita, beginning in June with a phased transition through the rest of the year,’ he added.
BMA GP Committee executive team member Dr Krishna Kasaraneni said: ‘We have long been raising concerns about Capita’s frankly shambolic running of GP support services – and most notably called for their contract to be stripped when it was revealed at the end of last year that thousands of patients had not received vital information about cervical screening, potentially putting these them at risk.
‘It is only right that NHS England has followed through and removed this service from Capita, and now any transition process must be robust and not be done as a cost-cutting exercise at the expense of patient safety.
‘Furthermore, we know there are still fundamental ongoing issues with Capita’s delivery of other backroom functions including the transfer of patient records, pensions administration and payments to practices, and we demand that NHS England ultimately takes responsibility for all of these shortcomings, and brings these back in-house as well.’
A Capita spokesperson said: ‘Returning administrative support of the cervical screening programme in England in-house is consistent with the approach in all other national screening programmes and will enable better integration across those programmes.
‘We support NHS England’s decision as part of its broader review of screening services, and we will work together to ensure a seamless transition.’
In January, Public Health England announced a new campaign to urge more women to test for cervical cancer, after data revealed coverage has reached the lowest point in two decades, despite an increase in the number of eligible women being invited.
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/21/home-smear-test-to-be-rolled-out-in-england-to-combat-low-screening-numbers?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
I was disappointed to read they are still running pilot testing in a few areas in UK and this isn’t going to be national for some time.
“Music said mothers have a role to play in raising awareness by talking to their daughters about screening. “It’s important to normalise screening and reduce stigma and misconceptions around it.
Universities, schools, workplaces and businesses can all play a part in raising awareness of the test too.”
I think this is a disgraceful statement, “normalising” screening, in other words, do it without thinking about it, forget about consent and informed consent…just do it, like you’re brushing your teeth. This was always the approach taken by the program, they didn’t want women to look at the evidence. (if they could find it, it was well hidden behind pay walls)
The other approach, using mothers to get their daughters screened, again, completely unacceptable – screening should be a private decision, this is using manipulation and pressure to get women screened. Using mothers…making them feel it’s their responsibility to get their daughters screened, it will be their fault if they don’t and something happens…
Again, they’ve alway used emotional blackmail…and have always pitched women against women.
There’s a reason why they always resort to these approaches, the test should never have been introduced, many women find it unacceptable for all sorts of reasons and gone are the days when we can be led by the nose into screening.
More women are saying NO and there’s not a damn thing they can do about it.
It sounds like Mr Music has no respect for women, views them as objects to be manipulated..
Why on earth would those comments be tolerated in 2019?
What’s the real agenda at work here?
Also, how dare they target the places we frequent…and don’t talk about awareness, we’re all drowning in awareness…it’s not awareness, it’s pressure, brain-washing, manipulation etc…
Where’s the concern about awareness of other rare cancers?
If someone went on in this way about renal cancer or thyroid cancer, we’d dismiss them as some sort of nut!
Elizabeth – I agree. What you have said about if people went on like this about other cancers, they would be treated like nutters.
If I went to the doctor and said that I wished to be screened annually for say, Kidney Cancer, even though I had no risk factors for it, no family history of it, nor any symptoms pointing to it, I just wanted someone to have a look to make sure everything was okay in there, the doctor would think I was bonkers.
They would say I needed therapy for an irrational fear of kidney cancer, they’d tell me that it was an uncommon illness and that annual screening would do more harm than good, and could pick up cysts or lesions in the kidney that were ultimately benign but could lead to surgery and even removal of a healthy organ. I’d be advised against it.
Yet replace “kidney” with “cervical” and suddenly all women must have this vital screening, even though kidney cancer is much more common than cervical. However, if the female kidneys could only be accessed through the vagina, there’d be a queue of doctors insisting on screening them for cancer!
That’s right, Amy
Once a screening test is introduced, it has to be promoted and protected, that’s why we should never introduce screening tests without independent randomised controlled trials.
Cervical screening was not subject to RCTs (incredibly) and I believe the initial research that backed mammograms was flawed…and things have moved on, we now have better treatments for breast cancer.
What’s particularly strange is there is a blog post from 2015 on that horrific cervicalscreen1.wordpress.com site reviewing the self test option. The woman in question was sent and invitation to participate along with her smear invite.
What happened to that pilot? That was 4 years ago and nothing. Either the NHS are extremely disorganised with pilots or some half truths are being told. Did vested interests try and bury it but attendance has declined so much they can’t any more?
Elizabeth in the daily fail comments one woman said her daughter is just 10 years old and already this woman is telling her about smears and how important they are…can you imagine?
The damage caused by these programs is far reaching, brainwashing is bad, it leads to bad decisions, leaving women to think they were saved when that’s not the case or highly unlikely is highly unethical and plain cruel – it means the daughter, sister and niece get bad advice too and the cycle of abuse continues…
I hate to hear of a mother starting the brainwashing for the program, doing their dirty work – it’s another way they use mothers and women – and to think, the mothers believe they’re doing the right thing…little do they know this advice can leave their daughter with lifelong issues – physical & psych/emotional.
I think the programs hope that mothers will do the work and their daughters will just accept screening, they won’t go looking for evidence and expect to have a say in whether they screen, when they screen or by what method, just another good little lemming.
On Facebook I keep getting an add that you can buy birth control online. I personally do not use birth control, but you should see all the angry emojis and dislikes this add has got. I read a few comments and one woman said “ this is how an epidemic of cervical cancer is going to start. Ladies get your paps no matter how embarrassed or uncomfortable they make you feel. Omg I can’t with this woman. I feel like there all so stupid and brainwashed. One even said if it wasn’t for paps her mom whould have died from cervical cancer. I’m really angry at the meadical comuinty for misleading. I’m glad there is an app for woman to get this without some doctors agenda . I’m getting these “woman’s health adds” and it’s Lot of false propaganda. It’s being pushed at my age group on Facebook. I’m so annoyed. It’s like they are trying to scare womAn about their bodies. I’m going to block these adds I’m so annoyed with it.
I have been trying to find out more about possible self testing in the UK programme and it seems to be only the few pilots they were running in a few areas, and the media is giving the impression it will be an imminent nationwide thing. I am sure that they’ve been so reluctant to introduce self testing because they have no control over women in the consulting room when they attend for another reason, as is the case with other screening tests. They’ve always hijacked appointments, and many women led to believe they won’t get the problem they came for addressed without the smear test first, so most are bullied into having it that way. If a woman says she will get around to it at home when the test arrives, the medics know she may not bother, and repeat tests may be given out repeatedly at repeated appointments.
Why they don’t send them in Australia, but make the woman do it there and then, or reason for appointment not dealt with. It is appalling to control women in this way, when other countries respect human rights and treat women as responsible adults.
I think one of the reasons – aside from fear of losing control of the herd – for the delays in self-testing is because the service is struggling to cope with things as they are, thanks to the incompetence of those in charge. They’ve stated they’ll consider self-testing once the programme’s fully implemented HPV primary testing, but they’ve made a royal mess of that and certainly wouldn’t be able to implement self-testing at the moment, even if they wanted to. Amazing how the Crapita cock-up made the papers, yet the current situation is far more of a scandal IMO and the media hasn’t noticed. Or perhaps they have and are just keeping quiet for fear of putting a dent in the wonderful ‘awareness’ campaigns.
There’s still tights controls here, you have to ask for a self HPV test from a GP, some may dissuade the woman from self-testing or claim it’s less reliable, and you have to use the test at the medical clinic, behind a curtain or in the toilet.
You can’t buy the Delphi Screener online here anymore either, that’s to make it as hard as possible for women to manage their own testing.
Not sure if they’ll start posting off self tests to unscreened or under-screened women, I haven’t heard that’s part of the program.
I initially read that HPV self testing would only be offered to women who decline the invasive HPV test for 6 years, not sure if GPs are refusing to provide a self test to women who fall outside that time line.
They know most women prefer self-testing but they’re only begrudgingly offering it to those they can’t reach any other way – the last thing they want is for women to assume they have a choice, they don’t want those who previously had regular screening choosing to move to self testing. It’s not about comfort or making the test easier for women, it’s about extending the reach of the program.
I believe that the women that take advantage of the self test will “need” further investigation by a colposcopy. I’m sure the program won’t give up their ownership of a women’s cervix without a fight. They have to have a reason to get women into the stirrups to keep the funding going. The last thing the invested interests need is a successful outcome with the self test. They want to make sure there is doubt about the procedure to undermine the so called choice in screening that is being offered.
It’s made clear that hpv self testing is not freely available because I keep reading, “those women eligible for self testing”…
Will be interesting to see how many women manage to self-test, and whether some of them were previously screened the invasive way? Will Medicare cover self tests of “non-eligible” women? Will the labs refuse to process the self swab?
Not sure how this will be handled by most GPs…will they make women who are considered ineligible, wait for 4 or 6 years before they can use a self test?
Mint, if the test is HPV+, I’m sure they’ll pressure the woman to have a Pap test then and there, I suspect that’s why the self HPV test has to be carried out at the clinic – they have you cornered. (and hopefully rattled by your HPV+ result)
Also, the HPV- women will be in the system so they obviously hope to have corralled most of the unscreened and under screened women over a few years using the self test bait..
This is not a concession to women, offering something more acceptable, it’s all about rounding up the hard-to-reach women.
Of course, there’s no discussion about women actively declining to test – we know we all have to test or should test – don’t we? We’re all defaulters…
The attitude promoted is that no reasonable woman would decline cervical screening…she must be misguided, damaged etc.
https://view.joomag.com/pulse-march-2019-issue/0615961001551105333
Page 15 right hand side – Vaccinations From April the HPV vaccine will be extended to 18-25 year olds – GP’s will receive a fee of £10.06 – From September all boys 12-13 will be included.
I dread to think how many youngsters boy or girl will receive/have received this vaccine, thousands?
Thanks for the link, Chas. Until now, I thought the govt had refused to give a date when they would start vaccinating boys, but looks like they’re sneaking it in quietly without the media reporting it. Another interesting thing I’ve noticed about the HPV vaccine in the UK is that it is available to gay men up to the late 40s! I wonder why women are told that it is ineffective after first getting HPV that it has to be done in girls aged 12 but seems to be effective in middle aged men who’ve long since been active?
They’re also saying in the US that it’s no good whatsoever for women over age 25. Now, the UK is saying it’s good for men who have sex with men through their late 40s? Are males and females really that different?
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/hpv-human-papillomavirus-vaccine/
Here’s the website and a leaflet to download, (scroll down to Men who have Sex with Men). It says men can get it now for free on NHS if aged 15-45. In the leaflet it says boys younger than 15 need only the 2 doses, but emphases those over 15 should have the 3 doses, but my daughter had to have 3 doses at age 12. Men could have been infected multiple times before reaching their 40s. I wonder why so imperative for girls to have it before sexual debut, but for men it’s OK to have it if they’ve been dogging for years.🤔
Indeed they are Bethkz….we have a cervix!
Oh, duh! The most important thing! It trumps any risk to any other disease! Even if we have symptoms of another disease!
Omg ladies again daily fail. 22 year old slams NHS after being denied a smear test
It would appear that all of my comments on the recent daily fail articles have gone! I was under the name CDNUK and can no longer see any of them, I must be banned from posting then? Just made a short comment on the 22 year old one, lets see if that shows up? Very disappointing!
Chas I too tried to post on the 22 year old saying while my heart went out to her she needed diagnostic tests not a smear and that she probably had adenocarcinoma which the smear might not detect anyway no joy…
I’ve just left a comment as well, let’s see if it gets through.
Just checked the 22 year old article but no comments showing! Just typical, perhaps they are going through moderation first?
Still nothing. While I hope it’s a glitch, Daily Mail love to censor anything who’s not a pro-screening fanatic so I won’t hold my breath.
Anyone – sorry!
Oh my days ladies daily fail today ….a blood urine or tampon swab test could replace the embarrassing hated smear test
Yayyyy ladies I recognise Chas Kiwi and App Queen on the daily fail comments ! You’re awesome. The vomitable Katie is back in force again lol…
LOL according to Be Well – Apparently I am carrying around a chip on my shoulder – Oh my word this is so funny, I’ve run out of my comments allowance of 20, but I can’t see 20 of mine there can any of you? They just stopped posting mine dam it! Oh well until the next one, soon no doubt! Well done to all you ladies posting, brilliant!
I’m jumping on now! I see the sensible comments are actually faring a little better on this one. I wonder if it depends on the moderator for the article as to what gets through?
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfvmkFedyjpeslsRC9Vtqrc43ZQSKPVL2wL9ZrhlTp57PreyQ/viewform
Found on twitter. Do please post your views to let this lady know how you feel.
Also done but didn’t leave them my email address
I also posted anonymously and made clear it was an option and she didn’t include any options for women to say they they had opted out.
Ada…done!
Daily fail not giving up new articles about the wonderful HPV jab…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-6884045/HPV-vaccination-linked-dramatic-fall-cervical-disease.html
Kat I noticed that the article refers to Scotland only and those women were all tested at age 20. I knew there was a reason they kept the screening age to age 20 until very recently in Scotland. Just using those women for research purposes without them knowing the evidence says they should not be screened until after 25. Research fodder without consent.